Author Topic: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E  (Read 3980 times)

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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2018, 07:04:08 am »
Dan, It's way over your stated budget but there's a nice MSOX2024A scope on Keysight's eBay store. You won't get ANY accessories, no probes etc but the logic analyser is enabled, it's calibrated, and it comes with the full-feature DSOX2APPBNDL bundle which lists at $1,250 on its own.  I've found that these guys will accept an offer of 90% of the asking price so, if you're interested, you can try for $2,175.00, maybe even a bit lower and work up.

This is how/where I bought my MSO7104B, I then bought probes and the logic analyzer leads for a few hundred more by watching eBay.  Unbeatable VFM and you know you'll get a defect-free scope.
 

Offline W2DML

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2018, 08:22:21 am »
That is a bit over budget + buying the logic probes make it pricey and something I don't need since my 54622D has a logic analyzer I rarely touch anymore. I found this DSOX2004 which also comes with the software bundle for way less on eBay auction: #232126748758. My only question is, is it worth getting the keysight even though it's pretty old and has low memory depth? I feel like for $1500 I rather get the R&S at this point, seems more attractive and newer.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2018, 08:26:31 am »
Again: look at the GW Instek MSO2000E series. It has mature firmware, deeper memory compared to the Keysight DSOX2000, does most of the things the R&S RTB2000 does and GW Instek has a warranty on it which ends 5 years after they stop producing the model.
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Online TK

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2018, 11:03:21 am »
You can also consider the Micsig TO1104.  4 Channels, 100MHz, serial decode and triggering, deep memory, HDMI port for external monitor, touch screen in a tablet format.  Price is around $475
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2018, 11:36:33 am »
That is a bit over budget + buying the logic probes make it pricey and something I don't need since my 54622D has a logic analyzer I rarely touch anymore. I found this DSOX2004 which also comes with the software bundle for way less on eBay auction: #232126748758. My only question is, is it worth getting the keysight even though it's pretty old and has low memory depth? I feel like for $1500 I rather get the R&S at this point, seems more attractive and newer.
I only paid $50 for the logic cable but that was a steal.  Beware of brand fan-boys steering you to buy their preferred products - the R&S is "buggy" according to 0xfede who has one - I don't have any R&S products.  I had a Siglent scope that had components missing off the PCB but they wouldn't RMA it - after three attempts to resolve, they eventually agreed to give me my money back; that is not an isolated story.  I'm not saying all Siglent stuff is bad but it does raise concerns with me and others about Siglent standing behind their 3 year warranty claims.
 

Offline Elasia

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2018, 12:59:58 pm »
That is a bit over budget + buying the logic probes make it pricey and something I don't need since my 54622D has a logic analyzer I rarely touch anymore. I found this DSOX2004 which also comes with the software bundle for way less on eBay auction: #232126748758. My only question is, is it worth getting the keysight even though it's pretty old and has low memory depth? I feel like for $1500 I rather get the R&S at this point, seems more attractive and newer.
I only paid $50 for the logic cable but that was a steal.  Beware of brand fan-boys steering you to buy their preferred products - the R&S is "buggy" according to 0xfede who has one - I don't have any R&S products.  I had a Siglent scope that had components missing off the PCB but they wouldn't RMA it - after three attempts to resolve, they eventually agreed to give me my money back; that is not an isolated story.  I'm not saying all Siglent stuff is bad but it does raise concerns with me and others about Siglent standing behind their 3 year warranty claims.

Interesting... I'll have to keep that in mind if i ever need to invoke it.

HP/Agilent/Keysight... its the old tried and true like Teks.  We actually got some 2004s at work.. they are ok, it does what it says on the box and they charge a shitload to enable the options.  Your going for your PhD.. I'd say the Siglent is at least worth a gander and if you dont like it after testing it, just return it.  Worst case is you know something like an agilent will just work out of the box and have a fall back plan.
 

Offline W2DML

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2018, 06:44:24 pm »
It would be great to know of a place I can try a specific scope out or a store that can ship me a trial scope for the siglent and r&s. Additionally it would be great to know some more details on the bugs 0xfede  is having. I'm trying to avoid brand fan boys but tbh I am one myself, keysight followed by tek  :) I looked at the GW instek again and while it provides the options, it looks meh, especially the screen. The micsig looks cool but I'm not looking for a tablet. I also find it interesting more people are recommending cheaper chinese brands over R&S, Keysight, and Tek. Has anyone tried the new Tek tbs2000 series?
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2018, 07:11:49 pm »
It would be great to know of a place I can try a specific scope out or a store that can ship me a trial scope for the siglent and r&s. Additionally it would be great to know some more details on the bugs 0xfede  is having. I'm trying to avoid brand fan boys but tbh I am one myself, keysight followed by tek  :) I looked at the GW instek again and while it provides the options, it looks meh, especially the screen. The micsig looks cool but I'm not looking for a tablet. I also find it interesting more people are recommending cheaper chinese brands over R&S, Keysight, and Tek. Has anyone tried the new Tek tbs2000 series?
Simple, bang for buck !

Don't in any way consider the likes of myself totally one eyed as my first DSO was a Tek and I have a soft spot for them, after all they've been in the game longer than most.

As far as trialing one, use the Siglent US 'how to buy' and find your local reseller:
https://www.siglentamerica.com/how-to-buy/

The range of choice we have today is unprecedented and that in itself make selection harder so other than detailed study of datasheets and forum member recommendations*, you haven't got many other avenues other than to 'try before you buy'. It's not like you're a scope newbie so things like UI and GUI are gunna mean more to someone like you. Dive back through the many threads looking at screenshots for the info that can be gleaned from them that makes use of a DSO intuitive and simple.


*Just as you have recognized fanboy's you also need be aware of the opposite, members with some grudge against a brand for whatever reason. This might have arisen from just one bad experience and with a model that's not of interest to you.
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Offline 0xfede

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2018, 09:40:44 pm »
....-
Additionally it would be great to know some more details on the bugs 0xfede  is having.
.....

There is a thread about the RTB2004 and I suggest to read it from page 77 (when it was released the latest firmware, 2.00) to the end (page 83):
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/1900/

It contains all kind of bugs as longs as a couple of table concerning the wfms/s at various settings.

The bug I used as example happens always:
+set the DSO in NORMAL mode, whatever trigger source
+wait the trigger to happen
+zoom (in or out) the waveform using the time/dive knob
=the waveform is cleared
If you are looking for an elusive event you will loose a lot of time. I cannot figure out how it slipped in production since it is a very common usage for a DSO.

The half channel decode refers to the fact that you have 2 decode channels and you need both for decoding a full duplex bus (like UART or SPI). And even here there is a bug that you cannot set the secondary channel threshold from the decode menu.

Best,
0xfede
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 09:47:14 pm by 0xfede »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2018, 09:46:35 pm »
It would be great to know of a place I can try a specific scope out or a store that can ship me a trial scope for the siglent and r&s. Additionally it would be great to know some more details on the bugs 0xfede  is having. I'm trying to avoid brand fan boys but tbh I am one myself, keysight followed by tek  :) I looked at the GW instek again and while it provides the options, it looks meh, especially the screen. The micsig looks cool but I'm not looking for a tablet. I also find it interesting more people are recommending cheaper chinese brands over R&S, Keysight, and Tek. Has anyone tried the new Tek tbs2000 series?
You don't need to sleep with test equipment so don't bother with how it looks. In the end you need it to work for you.
I have used the Tektronix TBS2000 series at a customer. It is nice, does what it should do but it doesn't have decoding or any other fancy options. What the TBS2000 is missing is a touch screen. The user interface seems to be build for a touch screen. Whenever I use it, I'm inclined to press the screen instead of using the select knob.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 11:10:56 pm by nctnico »
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Offline VintageHenk

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2018, 02:06:51 am »
Don't bother with the Chinese stuff, the UI is horrible, especially on scopes with a shared vertical control knob. Keysight makes the most responsive scopes on the market due to their ASICs and puts in a lot of effort in the UI. It really makes a huge difference when using your scope every day.
Personally don't like the R&S UI either, way too small fonts, too many menus to get what you want... but yeah, the hardware specs are quite a bit better for the same amount of money.
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2018, 02:27:30 am »
Don't bother with the Chinese stuff, the UI is horrible, especially on scopes with a shared vertical control knob.
Have to agree that a shared vertical knob would be a huge mistake. Happily, only the very cheapest scopes do that. There are plenty of very reasonable options from virtually any manufacturer that have dedicated control sections for each vertical channel.

While we're discussing UI's, one thing I do NOT like is a touch screen. Just has no place on a scope IMHO. When I reach up to the screen, my finger and hand are obscuring the thing I want to be viewing. Plus you're always smudging the screen with whatever is on your fingertips. On some of the "laptop-scopes" a touchscreen is almost a necessary evil to get the screen size in a reasonably sized package, but on a real scope you should be able to adjust the settings while watching how those adjustments affect the display. And to top it all off, a touch screen generally costs more - you are literally paying more money for a worse UI, while adding just another layer of unnecessary technology that can break at some point and disable your expensive scope.

Yeah, I know... touch screens are easier for specifying certain specialized trigger events. Fine, if you want that, make the touch screen an option for that purpose. But don't force large portions of the UI onto the touch screen "just because it's there". Unlike smartphone fanboys, Engineers are trying to get real work done - not impress their friends with multi-finger gesture sensing ("Cool, the latest scope is down to just one 6D joystick!!!"). Touch screens improve a few things, but they're not the de facto answer for everything on an oscilloscope.

This is my $0.02, worth exactly what you paid for it, YMMV, opinions are like you-know, standard disclaimers, etc. No offense intended if you feel differently, buy the scope you prefer and I'll do the same! {grin}
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 02:29:19 am by IDEngineer »
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2018, 02:46:46 am »
If you are still somewhat considering a Rigol, I am very satisfied with my DS4014 - although they have been on the road for a few years now, they have a great selection of features and can be upgraded (for free, if you are into that) to significant specs.

I got a good deal on mine from Rigol's clearance store.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2018, 03:49:38 am »
I just happened to notice that the Siglent SHS810 - a handheld scope - has 2Mpts of memory.

The Keysight Infiniivision 2000X series has... wait for it... 1Mpts. If you're careful to buy one manufactured after 05Mar2018 they toss in option DSOX2MEMUP to add a bonus 1Mpts.

I wish someone would explain why memory is so shallow in these higher end scopes, when even the handhelds come stock with more. Ironically, I believe the memory may already be physically present in the scopes and you're just paying a license fee to unlock it!
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2018, 05:04:40 am »
I just happened to notice that the Siglent SHS810 - a handheld scope - has 2Mpts of memory.

The Keysight Infiniivision 2000X series has... wait for it... 1Mpts. If you're careful to buy one manufactured after 05Mar2018 they toss in option DSOX2MEMUP to add a bonus 1Mpts.

I wish someone would explain why memory is so shallow in these higher end scopes, when even the handhelds come stock with more. Ironically, I believe the memory may already be physically present in the scopes and you're just paying a license fee to unlock it!
The keysights use an ASIC that has this memory barrier, although it allows for a faster wfm/s rate. Other architectures use FPGAs with discrete memory devices, thus allowing complete reconfigurability at the expense of wfm/s.

With true memory segmentation the memory limitation can be worked around in several scenarios, but tracking random events in long streams can be challenging.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2018, 05:08:45 am »
I just happened to notice that the Siglent SHS810 - a handheld scope - has 2Mpts of memory.

The Keysight Infiniivision 2000X series has... wait for it... 1Mpts. If you're careful to buy one manufactured after 05Mar2018 they toss in option DSOX2MEMUP to add a bonus 1Mpts.

I wish someone would explain why memory is so shallow in these higher end scopes, when even the handhelds come stock with more. Ironically, I believe the memory may already be physically present in the scopes and you're just paying a license fee to unlock it!
The keysights use an ASIC that has this memory barrier, although it allows for a faster wfm/s rate. Other architectures use FPGAs with discrete memory devices, thus allowing complete reconfigurability at the expense of wfm/s.

With true memory segmentation the memory limitation can be worked around in several scenarios, but tracking random events in long streams can be challenging.
Not only that but in many cases it is easier to capture a long trace and then zoom into the details without needing to setup complicated triggers and do a recapture. However that only works if you have several real Mpts to work with (remember: on a Keysight scope the amount of memory can be over 8 times less than what it says on the badge).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2018, 05:56:14 am »
I just happened to notice that the Siglent SHS810 - a handheld scope - has 2Mpts of memory.

The Keysight Infiniivision 2000X series has... wait for it... 1Mpts. If you're careful to buy one manufactured after 05Mar2018 they toss in option DSOX2MEMUP to add a bonus 1Mpts.

I wish someone would explain why memory is so shallow in these higher end scopes, when even the handhelds come stock with more. Ironically, I believe the memory may already be physically present in the scopes and you're just paying a license fee to unlock it!
The keysights use an ASIC that has this memory barrier, although it allows for a faster wfm/s rate. Other architectures use FPGAs with discrete memory devices, thus allowing complete reconfigurability at the expense of wfm/s.

With true memory segmentation the memory limitation can be worked around in several scenarios, but tracking random events in long streams can be challenging.
Not only that but in many cases it is easier to capture a long trace and then zoom into the details without needing to setup complicated triggers and do a recapture. However that only works if you have several real Mpts to work with (remember: on a Keysight scope the amount of memory can be over 8 times less than what it says on the badge).
Yes, the "blockbuster" approach is something only a large amount of memory can give you, especially if you have no idea what type of glitch is happening to properly set the triggers.

Regarding available memory... Yes, that is somewhat par for the course if storing multiple channels.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2018, 07:29:30 am »
*Just as you have recognized fanboy's you also need be aware of the opposite, members with some grudge against a brand for whatever reason. This might have arisen from just one bad experience and with a model that's not of interest to you.
I don't have a grudge against Siglent, I only relayed what my experience was, you yourself agreed they treated me very badly Rob.  What I find unfair is when people looking for genuine advice get told buy brand X, it's awesome! when the poster actually makes their living selling brand X and does not state that in their signature block.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2018, 07:37:06 am »
What I find unfair is when people looking for genuine advice get told buy brand X, it's awesome! when the poster actually makes their living selling brand X and does not state that in their signature block.
Which member could you be referring to Ted ?  :-//

I don't have a grudge against Siglent, I only relayed what my experience was, you yourself agreed they treated me very badly Rob.
Not so fast Ted, you're not the only one as everybody with the same SN# unit as yours could've been treated better IMO but I don't make Siglent policy and they wouldn't listen to a tiny tin pot dealer in the back of beyond anyway. You are one of many that have contacted me on that issue. We should have a vid on that rework issue soon.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 06:38:12 pm by tautech »
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Offline Elasia

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2018, 08:45:03 am »
Don't bother with the Chinese stuff, the UI is horrible, especially on scopes with a shared vertical control knob. Keysight makes the most responsive scopes on the market due to their ASICs and puts in a lot of effort in the UI. It really makes a huge difference when using your scope every day.
Personally don't like the R&S UI either, way too small fonts, too many menus to get what you want... but yeah, the hardware specs are quite a bit better for the same amount of money.

Thats the one thing i hate immediately about this siglent im getting... shared knobs..  :wtf:.. but for the price im willing to entertain it if the data output is just as good compared to the specs listed on the box... really interested in seeing this bode plotter they baked in.  The serial decode is good for me too.. i do a fair bit of uart/can/spi, comes in handy to trigger and capture events.  Like anything else, it really comes down to what are you planning to do with it and does the specs line up with the work? 
 

Offline Elasia

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2018, 08:54:18 am »
I just happened to notice that the Siglent SHS810 - a handheld scope - has 2Mpts of memory.

The Keysight Infiniivision 2000X series has... wait for it... 1Mpts. If you're careful to buy one manufactured after 05Mar2018 they toss in option DSOX2MEMUP to add a bonus 1Mpts.

I wish someone would explain why memory is so shallow in these higher end scopes, when even the handhelds come stock with more. Ironically, I believe the memory may already be physically present in the scopes and you're just paying a license fee to unlock it!

Their dedicated ASICs are both their best thing since sliced bread and their achilles heel.  If they cant increase their turn around time to market, the Chinese are on course to really wreak their bread and butter markets like they are for the low end scopes.  Love or hate the Chinese... their rapid turn, fail and fail fast methods get new products to market at an absurd rate giving them a huge knowledge boost.  They are pretty much in their own golden age.
 

Offline W2DML

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2018, 09:40:49 am »
To add, I read through the R&S thread as 0xfede suggested and saw the bugs discussed. Assuming R&S is a reputable company, hey are working on fixing these bugs in the firmware. (I'm unsure how long that will take.) Additionally I feel like the R&S is the best option still compared to the keysight but the more I crack into the details the harder it gets to decide. If I'm assuming correctly the keysight is mature in FW yet due to it's age has a lower sampling rate which might affect measurements. I saw a GW vs. Keysight scope comparison and the keysight was skipping overshoots on a square wave vs the instek which isn't good. Additionally I feel like the R&S wouldn't be worth paying 2k+ for due to its bugs in the firmware and options which aren't implemented as well as the keysight or other brands. If I'm going to be honest, I would have probably not found most of these issues that were reported when using the scope but it's good to know they are there. As of right now I'm waiting to hear back tm from some reps and I'm leaning towards the R&S still. If not I might just go get the old keysight or maybe get lucky and find a cheap 3000x series. Last case scenario I'm looking at the siglent, $500 is definitely a safer purchase for me than over $1000.

Extra note: It seems as if every T&M equipment has problems, it seems as if I'm now looking for the one with the least problems in my use case at this point.
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2018, 09:58:33 am »
Extra note: It seems as if every T&M equipment has problems, it seems as if I'm now looking for the one with the least problems in my use case at this point.
I think that statement pretty much sums up most high tech purchases these days. Figure out what you need to do, list the devices that will do it, then pick the one whose shortcomings are LEAST objectionable.
 

Offline W2DML

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2018, 10:05:08 am »
I forgot to ask in my last post but if I do go with the agilent/keysight, do you guys think the lack of memory depth will affect my measurements seriously? From what I read it looks like keysight does their measurements and such post acquisition vs during it like the R&S. Correct me if I'm wrong
 

Offline Elasia

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Re: Keysight DSOx2004 vs. Siglent SDS1204X-E
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2018, 02:05:02 pm »
I forgot to ask in my last post but if I do go with the agilent/keysight, do you guys think the lack of memory depth will affect my measurements seriously? From what I read it looks like keysight does their measurements and such post acquisition vs during it like the R&S. Correct me if I'm wrong

Bigger isnt always better.  Found a decent article to explain why.. gist of it is if the processor gets so bogged down if you go to fast and to deep your response will go to utter trash.  Much like all the other options, its best to read up on what that facet does and if its something you care about and if so what do you want out of it.

That said I've never really had to much issue with KS less im really pushing it hard but im usually just fooling about if im doing something like that... (i've managed to super bog some down to where i could go get coffee.. lol) we got a good selection of scopes to work with so mix and match does work out nicely by having a variety.

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1279463


 
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