Author Topic: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC  (Read 3944 times)

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Online Eric_S

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LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« on: May 11, 2018, 01:21:28 am »
So LeCroy's released a new entry in their HD/12bit ADC range:

8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC, 5Gpoint memory.

http://teledynelecroy.com/waveprohd/

http://teledynelecroy.com/pressreleases/document.aspx?news_id=2049&capid=107&mid=554


(I haven't looked at the spec sheets in detail yet regarding ENOBS, etc)
 

Offline srce

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2018, 03:34:18 am »
Looks pretty good. Shame it wasn't available last month when I bought a keysight s series. Looks like it is better in a few areas   >:(
 

Online DaJMasta

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2018, 04:52:13 am »
I like that there are some really high bandwidth options well over 8 bits now and I very much like that there are some sample memories that measure in gigapoints now.  It's a nice direction to be going, now maybe in 10 years one will fall into my pricerange  8)

Online Eric_S

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2018, 04:59:25 am »
... After briefly reading the spec sheet.

It's got a lot of good and some that is "bad" (which I'll post since that's more interesting)

It's full BW/samplerate in interlaced mode, and full sample memory  only appiles in said interlaced mode (so 2.5 for 4 channels vs 5 in 2 channel mode).

The digital mem is 125Mpoints vs the 2.5/5Gpoints of the analog channels.

And the "analysis memory" is 0.5Gpoints?
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2018, 05:36:33 am »
Price?  :popcorn:

 

Offline imo

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 05:53:37 am »
Quote
Pricing and Availability
The WavePro HD is available now with pricing of $31,000 for the 2.5-GHz 254HD, $39,500 for the 4-GHz 404HD, $57,000 for the 6-GHz 604HD, and $71,000 for the 8-GHz 804HD. All are available in mixed-signal versions.
Press Release: Chestnut Ridge, N.Y., May 8, 2018
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 05:55:25 am by imo »
 
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Offline madmax96

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2018, 06:47:04 am »
Really good oscilloscope from the banner specs. 8Ghz and 12 bit are really top performance . Also noise and Enob seem good
 

Offline Scratch.HTF

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2018, 05:58:18 pm »
Does LeCroy (or anyone else) offer FFT analysis for 1G+ points?
If it runs on Linux, there is some hackability in it.
 

Offline madmax96

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2018, 04:36:33 am »
LeCroy can do FFt on 500M points, none else should be able to manage so much samples.
 

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2018, 06:52:23 am »
For more points in an FFT, can you just use persistence mode?  If that's what you mean by points, at least.  If you mean bins.... I don't know of a scope that offers that, but it would take an immense amount of calculation to do...

Online rx8pilot

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2018, 07:12:14 am »
The 20GS/s sample rate seems slow for 8Ghz BW. Within Nyquist, but barely.

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Online Eric_S

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2018, 03:30:39 pm »
If I'm not mistaken, LeCroy's position on the matter is that 2.5 oversamples is ok, as long as your filters are sharp enough and you use a correct interpolation.
 

Online Berni

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2018, 04:18:03 pm »
The Keysight Infiniium scopes do FFT on 1Gpts (If you have the pricey option installed to unlock that much memory). Tho it can take it quite a while to crunch the numbers on something like that. Especially on the models that still use the older slow CPUs
 

Online Eric_S

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2018, 03:50:10 pm »
The Keysight Infiniium scopes do FFT on 1Gpts (If you have the pricey option installed to unlock that much memory). Tho it can take it quite a while to crunch the numbers on something like that. Especially on the models that still use the older slow CPUs

What sort of time are we talking about (for the modern scopes)?
 

Online Berni

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2018, 04:20:48 pm »
I haven't tested it but i would assume the time is measured in minutes.

In general FFT on the infiniium scopes becomes a slideshow once you get past 10 Mpts. Its not hardware accelerated in any way, the older CPUs don't have great floating point performance and the software is not very multi threaded in most tasks.

I rarely find massive memory depths useful. As soon as you start putting any automated measurements or math on these long waveforms things slow down to a crawl. Here and there they might be useful for capturing long events in detail or with protocol decoders to just snap a big chunk of time and move trough the data at your own pace.
 

Offline bson

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2018, 05:32:51 pm »
I rarely find massive memory depths useful. As soon as you start putting any automated measurements or math on these long waveforms things slow down to a crawl. Here and there they might be useful for capturing long events in detail or with protocol decoders to just snap a big chunk of time and move trough the data at your own pace.
I have to agree with this.  Deep memory is nice for multiple segmented captures.  But for just a single transaction, not that important.  As an example, a 64 byte page write to an I2C EEPROM is about 70 bytes (a little less), each with 10 clocks, giving 700 clocks.  Capturing 10 samples per clock requires a whopping 7k pts.  With 20k pts there's lots of leeway for imperfect trigger delays, inter-byte clock delays, clock stretching here and there, etc.  20000 points!  Typically when working I'll stay at 50k pts.  That's really plenty, while with such a short record any half decent scope is snappy.  The exception of course is FFTs, but even then capturing at 2x the max frequency for something basic like audio (at 50kSPS) getting even 512k pts takes ten seconds - just to capture the data.  Against this backdrop it doesn't matter how fast the FFT itself is - 10ms, 100ms, 1000ms... doesn't matter since the update time is dominated by the acquisition.  And this is even worse when looking at anti-imaging filters with cutoffs at e.g. 100Hz to say monitor a voltage level.  512k pts at 200SPS is hopeless.  (This where my HP 3577A VNA really shines as it can get down this low to sweep a filter in 10-20 seconds at SNRs that are totally unrealistic with an FFT based approach.  Never mind it will also do log sweeps!  Not to mention also gives me a phase trace, which for some reason is uncommon in scopes.)
 

Offline srce

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2018, 06:22:19 pm »
I haven't tested it but i would assume the time is measured in minutes.
I've seen an FFT on the MSO S take > 20 minutes. Their support didn't think this was a problem.
 

Online Berni

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2018, 07:42:47 pm »
For low frequency and audio stuff i have a HP 89410A (DC-10MHz Vector Signal Analyzer). Its workings are a bit strange in that it works like a spectrum analyzer but even the mixing is done in the digital domain while it still does some FFT in the end. It lets you have a RBW of 0.03Hz and includes a general purpose signal generator that can be used as a tracking generator. The high dynamic range lets you even measure the low THD of audio stuff.

But regarding FFT in infiniium scopes its still pretty nice. The scope is smart enough to set up all of its acquisition settings from the desired FFT settings. So if you want you can simply fullscreen the FFT window and just change the Start Stop RBW parameters on your FFT. It can do wide spans on few KHz RBW pretty fast. Makes it feel like you are suddenly using a real spectrum analyzer, but as long as you keep in mind the limitations of a scope signal chain. It doesn't have a massive dynamic range and it has some spurs that come from the scopes internal noise.

On most other scopes i found the FFT pretty crap (Never had the chance to use a high end LeCroy tho).
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2018, 10:35:42 pm »
I haven't tested it but i would assume the time is measured in minutes.
I've seen an FFT on the MSO S take > 20 minutes. Their support didn't think this was a problem.
I've seen (and think i owned) a real SA that takes sweep about that time for particular (manual) setting (lowest RBW, full span) anyway FFT is a FFT regardless of any device, its not a real sweep SA, if you have immense reading you'll know the difference (things like leakage)... fwiw..
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2018, 11:36:55 pm »
Price?  :popcorn:

If you have to ask, then you cannot afford it.

Really good oscilloscope from the banner specs. 8Ghz and 12 bit are really top performance . Also noise and Enob seem good

I wonder what its 12 bit settling time is.  Higher resolution non-sampling oscilloscopes usually fail in this regard and the EOB of less than 8 bits is not promising.

Embedded Windows 10?  What fun!

 

Online darkstar49

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2018, 07:45:43 am »
Embedded Windows 10?  What fun!

where the heck did you see Windows Embedded...????
With an I7 6th Gen and 16GB of RAM (32GB as an option), that doesn't sound like a winning couple...
And some of the options are to my knowledge not compatible with embedded Windows versions.
 

Online Berni

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2018, 09:09:08 am »
Test equipment that has a PC inside often uses the Embeded version of Windows. This is not to be confused with Windows CE, Windows IoT or Windows RT. Basically the embedded version is a more "no bullshit" version of the normal desktop version of windows where they let the OEM strip away anything they don't need. The licensing also works differently as you can't buy this version of windows on your own (Likely involves a contract and buying it in bulk). So anything that is compatible with the regular Win 10 versions should be compatible with this (As long as the OEM has not stripped out some essential module).

They had the embedded version since Windows XP, but i would imagine in Windows 10 it brings more drastic changes due to all the extra crap in it. Pretty sure things like Cortana, forceful updates, forceful reboots, ads in the start menu, nagging to log you into microsofts services etc... are all removed in the embeded version. It might actually be the best version of Win 10 to run on your PC.

Id still rather have Windows 7, but hey maybe they did a good job of cleaning the nonsense out of Win 10. Microsoft is already starting to wind down support for 7 so i guess they had to go to 10 to avoid having to transition to the new OS later down the scopes lifecycle.
 

Online rx8pilot

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2018, 09:52:45 am »
I just finished a design job that used Win10 embedded. That choice that was well outside my part of the project, but I was able to see how it worked from the inside. Overall, it is pretty good. The end user has no idea and it allowed us to put more effort into custom hardware compared to most other options. The software developers liked it and the end result was very good - no complaints from anyone.

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Offline David Hess

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2018, 06:25:25 pm »
Embedded Windows 10?  What fun!

where the heck did you see Windows Embedded...????
With an I7 6th Gen and 16GB of RAM (32GB as an option), that doesn't sound like a winning couple...
And some of the options are to my knowledge not compatible with embedded Windows versions.

The datasheet as shown below.

I just finished a design job that used Win10 embedded. That choice that was well outside my part of the project, but I was able to see how it worked from the inside. Overall, it is pretty good. The end user has no idea and it allowed us to put more effort into custom hardware compared to most other options. The software developers liked it and the end result was very good - no complaints from anyone.

If you are good, then the complaints come later.  If you are Tektronix, then the complaints come immediately.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 06:27:27 pm by David Hess »
 

Online darkstar49

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Re: LeCroy Wavepro HD 8GHz Bw - / 20GS/s 12bit ADC
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2018, 10:45:01 pm »

still can't see the word 'embedded' in there... ??????

And honestly, with Lecroy, that doesn't matter... ALL x86 Windows Embedded scopes can run a 'full' Windows as well... (at least until now), so I wouldn't care too much about that... and while the scope is 'new' as such, their PCIe interface card was very probably not changed since the HDO series (why should they ?), there's shouldn't be any driver issues...
 


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