Lecroy Wavesurfer 3054

[FuzzyOnion]

This may be common knowledge, if so please disregard.

Currently, the LeCroy Wavesurfer 3054 is available for US$2900.  This is a 500MHz, 4Gs, 4 channel scope.  These are factory refurbs that come with a current cal certificate and 3 year warranty.
Teledyne Lecroy has a store on ebay selling these and other scopes/accessories.
I know there are a number of folks here who are not fans of the 3000 series, but it's a lot scope for $2900.  Based on a 2014 release, these scopes are not very old either - the "z" series was just released late last year.

Anyway, I wanted to pass along the information for anyone interested.

Cheers

[dietert1]

I like the idea of pushing sustainability by maintainance. Another very interesting offer:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LeCroy-Vehicle-Bus-Analyzer-VBA204Xi-204Xi-2GHz-10GS-s-Oscilloscope-Probes/113332193476?hash=item1a632008c4:g:18YAAOSwPTlb03e4

This is a portable Lecroy scope with 4 channels of 2 GHz bandwidth, with touch screen and with active probe ports. It should be about 10 years old and appears to be working. It will last another 10 years if you clean the dust inside. These scopes have long acquisition memory and 2 digitizers with 10 GSamples/sec each. With four channels it still runs at 5 GSamples/sec per channel.

Regards, Dieter

[Martin72]

To the Topic:

I know there are a number of folks here who are not fans of the 3000 series, but it's a lot scope for $2900.  Based on a 2014 release, these scopes are not very old either - the "z" series was just released late last year.

I´m one of them - cause we got since january 2018 a WS3024.
Bought in the hope it´s a lecroy, what couldn´t get wrong….
Yes, it´s lecroy style, hefty look and feel, lecroy-specific probe-connections, works without any problems with our AP011 currentclamp for example.
Or full hardware serial decoding...
Nice big bright screen....BUT:
Awful slow response, it seems that the hardware is a little bit too weak for the lecroy features.
And it freezes at several circumstances, only hard reset will help.
Many firmware updates so far and an end is not in sight.
Against my rigol mso 5074, the WS lost clearly in performance….what a pity.
The 3000Z models are improved versions what the hardware concerns.
You can see it that the power analyzer option is on only avaible for WS3000Z versions.
I wouldn´t recommend the WS3000 series…
To get the circle closed, in that case I´m with Dieter...

[Mr Nutts]

I like the idea of pushing sustainability by maintainance. Another very interesting offer:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LeCroy-Vehicle-Bus-Analyzer-VBA204Xi-204Xi-2GHz-10GS-s-Oscilloscope-Probes/113332193476?hash=item1a632008c4:g:18YAAOSwPTlb03e4

This is a portable Lecroy scope

This is as portable as any other Waveruner scope 

And a reliable source told me that if the handle isn't black then it may fail and in the process dropping the whole scope. So not really portable

[dietert1]

Yes, when you buy a 10 year old machine you will have to do some maintainance and in that process you will learn in the www what to observe. Not a real problem for an engineer or scientist. Just stay calm and avoid crazy things like motherboard upgrades, option hacks and the like.

Our WR 64Xi is similar to the VBA and i am confident we can keep it running after having spent 2 or 3 days exchanging the touch panel, cleaning the dirt inside, fixing one of the rotary encoders, renewing the clock battery etc. It did have the black handle and stronger fans and i got some explosion views of the mechanics from LeCroy. It's easy to take apart and mount even without those drawings.

LeCroy service and accessories are expensive. But there are enough of those pre-owned machines around to get help elsewhere.

Regards, Dieter

PS:
And yes, a 20K scope should not be portable, because portable scopes keep falling down, independent of which handle they have. Apparently many of those scopes go to after market with one of the rotary controls broken, like our WR 64Xi. Apparently our scope survived the accident without fatal damage. Let's hope the same is true for that VBA on ebay.

[Martin72]

Our WR 64Xi

Did this one still have a free adjustable und moveable measure-gate, like the Waverunner LT and the 93XX models got ?
This feature is not only missing in the WS3000 series, after contacting lecroy, even todays waverunner/master/pro/hdo doesn´t have it anymore….

[dietert1]

Yes our WR 64Xi supports the measurement gate. See attached screen dump where it measures the sync fields in two USB2 packets.

Regards, Dieter

[Martin72]

The two green "arrows" left, underside ?

[dietert1]

No, those arrows indicate the trigger position in the main track and the green zoom track. The trigger position of the other zoom is invisible (outside screen to the left).
Gate adjustment looks like below. It is specific for each parameter.
The parameter warning indicators are: "Parameter on rising edge. Data range too low. Data should span most of the grid height for best resolution.".

Regards, Dieter

[Martin72]

Hi,

Yes but this is also known by the newer models - And it seems, it hasn´t got the "track" function like the waverunner lt (see my picture before).
Old waverunners got this gate too:



With tracking on, you could move the once defined gate over the signal, without defining the gate for the new position ( we need this for measuring a e.g. 400hz sinewave signal, before/after loadstep (voltage regulation behaviour).

[dietert1]

I could not find that tracking gate. I know our 9354AL has that, and the gate is for a group of parameters.

But on the WR 64Xi screen dump i posted above you can see "Trend" and "Track" buttons. I mean what you want to do by hand, turning the knob on that older scope, the new scope will probably do all by itself, presenting the result as a curve "parameter value as function of time or event count".
To be honest, i can't explain the difference between "Trend" and "Track". Up to now i only used "Histogram" and hist icons.

Regards, Dieter

[dietert1]

See below a track of the frequency parameter (orange curve). Vertical centerline is at 240 MHz, scale is 1 MHz per vertical unit. A neat method that improves on manual tracking.

Regards, Dieter

[Mr Nutts]

Yes, when you buy a 10 year old machine you will have to do some maintainance and in that process you will learn in the www what to observe. Not a real problem for an engineer or scientist. Just stay calm and avoid crazy things like motherboard upgrades, option hacks and the like.

Our WR 64Xi is similar to the VBA and i am confident we can keep it running after having spent 2 or 3 days exchanging the touch panel, cleaning the dirt inside, fixing one of the rotary encoders, renewing the clock battery etc. It did have the black handle and stronger fans and i got some explosion views of the mechanics from LeCroy. It's easy to take apart and mount even without those drawings.

LeCroy service and accessories are expensive. But there are enough of those pre-owned machines around to get help elsewhere.

Regards, Dieter

PS:
And yes, a 20K scope should not be portable, because portable scopes keep falling down, independent of which handle they have. Apparently many of those scopes go to after market with one of the rotary controls broken, like our WR 64Xi. Apparently our scope survived the accident without fatal damage. Let's hope the same is true for that VBA on ebay.

I don't think a 10 year old scope should already require extensive repairs. My Lecroy LTs are 17 years old and my Agilent DSO8064 is 11 years old and neither required any repair

Missing encoders and knobs are not because a scope has been dropped but because the knobs have been knocked off by someone

And why should an expensive scope not be portable? I think such a scope would be designed as a bench scope but it should still be portable to some extend. The handles on my LT scopes are solid enough to safely hold the weight of the scope, and so does the handle on my Agilent Infinum DSO8064. I think if the scope is so expensive then the budget should include something better than a flimsy plastic handle that fails

Someone who shall not be named once told me that these Lecroy Xi were of poor build quality and that they tend to overheat and that the power supplies are prone to fail. It would have to be really cheap before I would consider buying one when the older scopes are so much more reliable

[FuzzyOnion]

To the Topic:

I know there are a number of folks here who are not fans of the 3000 series, but it's a lot scope for $2900.  Based on a 2014 release, these scopes are not very old either - the "z" series was just released late last year.

I´m one of them - cause we got since january 2018 a WS3024.
Bought in the hope it´s a lecroy, what couldn´t get wrong….
Yes, it´s lecroy style, hefty look and feel, lecroy-specific probe-connections, works without any problems with our AP011 currentclamp for example.
Or full hardware serial decoding...
Nice big bright screen....BUT:
Awful slow response, it seems that the hardware is a little bit too weak for the lecroy features.
And it freezes at several circumstances, only hard reset will help.
Many firmware updates so far and an end is not in sight.
Against my rigol mso 5074, the WS lost clearly in performance….what a pity.
The 3000Z models are improved versions what the hardware concerns.
You can see it that the power analyzer option is on only avaible for WS3000Z versions.
I wouldn´t recommend the WS3000 series…
To get the circle closed, in that case I´m with Dieter...

If you don't mind sharing, what were the circumstances when the scope froze?  Was the slow response something that affected everything?  I ask because I am interested in the 3054.  I'm not in any production environment or test development scenario.  It's just for my hobby bench and the RF projects I fiddle with.  I have a friend on another forum who took delivery of a 3054 a couple of weeks ago.  He hasn't done any exhaustive testing - just using it as a normal scope.  He said he hasn't noticed any anomalies yet.  He loaded all 4 inputs with 25kHz wide FM sinewave at 250 MHz and the ran FFTs on 3 of them.  Except for a couple of seconds delay while it was processing, it ran fine. 

Did you run into any problems with the analog inputs?  Were you using any of the mixed signal accessories?  I won't have any use for any of the digital stuff with the scope - just analog. 
Thanks

[nctnico]

If you want to spend that kind of money then look somewhere else. The original Wavesurfer 3000 series have an extremely weak CPU under the hood which isn't up to the task at all.

[Martin72]

Hi,

Did you run into any problems with the analog inputs?

I´m using the analog inputs only.

There are different circumstances where the scope freezes - but one of them is an "approved" bug lecroy knows about it ( I´ve contact them and they could reproduce it, now it´s on their list for the next Firmware update.):

At lower frequencies if you use the "find triggerlevel" button, the scope freezes and only turn off/on will take it back ( sometimes even this won´t work and you need to plug it off from the mains).
The higher the frequency, the less it will freeze.
Further the response ( using touchpanel) will be slowed down ( don´t know exactly under which conditions, must examine it).
You hit a button on the screen...nothing happens althoug the audible feedback take notice about by a "click", it was an delay of a few seconds for responding.

Today it hungs up by trying to degaussing the AP011 probes - sometimes I think our WS3024 was defective but a look in the firmware revision history, there a several fixes for preventing the scope to crash.
We bought this one and a few weeks later the WS3000Z was avaible, with improved hardware (board, screen, touchpanel) - this was really annoying.
Also a known bug :
You can define the measure gate ( from which division from... till it should measure) - but you can´t see it on the screen (dashed lines).

Edit:

If you want to spend that kind of money then look somewhere else. The original Wavesurfer 3000 series have an extremely weak CPU under the hood which isn't up to the task at all.

I agree with it, at today´s sight and after working with it over a year.

[Hydrawerk]

If you want to spend that kind of money then look somewhere else. The original Wavesurfer 3000 series have an extremely weak CPU under the hood which isn't up to the task at all.

Wasn't this scope designed in cooperation with Siglent?

[tautech]

If you want to spend that kind of money then look somewhere else. The original Wavesurfer 3000 series have an extremely weak CPU under the hood which isn't up to the task at all.

Wasn't this scope designed in cooperation with Siglent?

Yep and the later 3000Z too. (SDS3000X)

[JPortici]

and it had nothing wrong hardware wise, aside the fact that the resistive touch screen of the first version was a true piece of shit. (The new Z version have a much more usable capacitive touch screen)
The problem hardware wise was that the cpu was hugely underspecced (also improved on the new Z version, but not much. Wavescan is still too slow to be useful, onse you set acquisition memory over 100kps scope slows down a lot as well)
The problem software wise is that even though the lecroy version of the scope runs lecroy software, with all the goodies and flexibility, some of the functions were stripped down. All the useful bits in wavescan were removed, it's just a glorified event search.

For that kind of money the siglent 5000x or the RTB2000 are way more interesting and usable IMHO

[FuzzyOnion]

If you want to spend that kind of money then look somewhere else. The original Wavesurfer 3000 series have an extremely weak CPU under the hood which isn't up to the task at all.

First, Martin, thank you for your insights and details of your experience.  My friend from the other forum so far is happy with his.  I think in his case and mine, several of the issues mentioned will not directly impact our use.  I'm going to wait though and see what issues arise as he continues to check out the 3054.  We're both just RF experimenters and a number of the firmware/software features are just generally lost on us. 

"that kind of money" - in this case, it's US $2850 for the 3054.  The Siglent goes for twice that.  I haven't found comparable hardware - working and warranted and calibrated - anywhere else yet, although I'm still looking.

Cheers

[nctnico]

If you are into RF and don't need feature like decoding then I'd go for a second hand scope. In your price range you can find really nice ones on Ebay.

[ollopa]

The WS3K scopes run WinCE and a simplified version of the Maui software.  The CPU is inferior, the hardware specifications are inferior, and the firmware is inferior to any of the full-Windows scopes.  The price, however, is in the range of one of those used scopes so you're not even getting better value out of the WS3K...

I would buy a WS3K over a Rigol or Siglent any day of the week but I'd rather have a WR6KA, WSXs, WRXi, or WP7KA than a WS3K.  If OneTouch means more to you than performance then by all means, spend your $3k on the WS3K.

[FuzzyOnion]

If you are into RF and don't need feature like decoding then I'd go for a second hand scope. In your price range you can find really nice ones on Ebay.

Well, the 3054 is a "second hand" scope - just factory refurbished, selling for about $4000 less than when new.  To add some perspective, my current scope is a Tek 2465B - a loaner now for about 18 months and I do need to return it to its owner.  He's been more than generous and I need the room on the bench.  Before the 2465B, I had a Tek 465B.  Last December, I had a Keysight DSO 3054 for about 3 weeks to tinker with.  It took a few days to get up to speed, but I was impressed.  Cursors were cool on the 2465, but this was a whole new game.  You can keep the touchscreen junk, but I was having a ball with a mouse.  I wanted that scope, but $10k  was way out of the park.  Since then, I've been searching for a scope similar to it.  I want a scope that works and meets spec - not a fixer upper or something I have to screw around with.  At my age, I'm done with that stuff.  When I sit down at the bench, I just want to work on my project and be able to trust my equipment.  I've been looking at ebay and wherever to find something I could afford and that I trusted.  So, if you know of another 500 MHz, 4G/s, 4 channel scope that is a turnkey package, please let me know - I'm exhausted.

Cheers

[Mr Nutts]

The WS3K scopes run WinCE and a simplified version of the Maui software.  The CPU is inferior, the hardware specifications are inferior, and the firmware is inferior to any of the full-Windows scopes.  The price, however, is in the range of one of those used scopes so you're not even getting better value out of the WS3K...

I would buy a WS3K over a Rigol or Siglent any day of the week but I'd rather have a WR6KA, WSXs, WRXi, or WP7KA than a WS3K.  If OneTouch means more to you than performance then by all means, spend your $3k on the WS3K.

But from what I understand all the scopes you listed have some drawbacks

The WP7KA is huge and as loud as a jet engine

And as far as I know WR6KA and WR7KA both have very limited hardware trigger sets (i.e. not even a "runt" trigger) 

WSXS and WRXI seem to have build quality issues with tendency to overheat and other problems (i.e. delaminating touch layer). And I heard power supplies are a weak point, too

All these scopes are old and because they are so complex they seem somewhat fragile. The WS3000 seems to be new and with warranty

I'm no expert but a place I did an internship in a while ago had a WS3000, and I didn't find it bad. It can get slow if you play with FFT or multiple math traces but for general tasks it was OK. The touch screen needed some firm press but it really wasn't as bad as it's been portrayed

[Martin72]

I would buy a WS3K over a Rigol or Siglent any day of the week

I won´t. 

Or, if you buy a WS3K you buy a siglent….
The performance in general is awful ( WS3K without "Z" ), the hardware is underdressed - For comparison it´s like building a sportscar with an 100HP motor.