logic analyzer/mainframe bundle. worth it?

[coldfiremc]

Hi.
someone is offering me a pair of logic analyzers. One is the classical tek 3001GPX and the other is an HP 16500A. both come with cables, probes and 2 modules per mainframe. Is selling this "as is" but claims that both machines pass cal and boot tests. the price is near 400USD for both.worth it? are this good buys, or just over-elaborated pieces of junk? the only thing that I'm quite worried is Screens. Those old picture tube computer screens tend to be in pretty bad condition, or if isn't the screen is the flyback, or horizontal circuit, or both. are my fears justified?
Thanks

[nctnico]

I would leave the 3001GPX. There is very little information on it and it is very old. For $400 you should be able to pick up a much newer Agilent logic analyser mainframe.

[coldfiremc]

thanks for that fast answer.
Seems to be a good reason. I have the images for that disks stored somewhere, but manuals or something are pretty hard to find.
Another thing: That price is with shipping. I'm from faaaaaar faaar away in south america, so shippings are terrible.

what models of "modern" tek or agilent analyzers are good?. i'm, going to measure things inside ISA bus and some "not so fast" cpld's/fpga

[p9k]

$400 is spendy for a 16550A. It might be an ok deal for a 16500C or 167xx if it's loaded with cards and has all the pods and works.   But that series is excellent for wide parallel buses like ISA so you're on the right track.

[nctnico]

A Tektronix TLA715 (or newer) is also a good option.

[coldfiremc]

I was looking a tek TLA 711 it's not 715, it's good too?. Obiously OS is old and harddisks are worn off, but nothing that a good ide2CF adaptor can't handle

[Stray Electron]

$400 is spendy for a 16550A.

    It certainly is in this country but probably not where the OP lives.  And shipping is going to cost a bundle so if that's included then it's probably a heck of a deal!  FWIW I don't think you could even give away a 16550A in this country any more.

It might be an ok deal for a 16500C or 167xx if it's loaded with cards and has all the pods and works.   But that series is excellent for wide parallel buses like ISA so you're on the right track.

   Agreed. If it had the cards that the OP needs then it should good.  The nice thing about the 16500 is that there's lot of different cards available for it.  The bad thing is that most of them boot from a floppy disk so the wait can be a PITA and the things are huge and heavy.  OTOH since it's an HP, they last a long time, there are lots of them out there and manuals are readily available.

   Warning to OP, don't buy any logic analyzer that doesn't come with the cables and the grabbers. Those things will cost more than a complete LA.

   The CRT/screen may have some burn on it but in general the screens in the HP stuff last just about forever.  But I would be worried about shipping one since they don't like rough treatment.  There are plenty of repair threads on this forum where people have repaired all kinds of CRT screens in HP gear.

[coldfiremc]

$400 is spendy for a 16550A.

    It certainly is in this country but probably not where the OP lives.  And shipping is going to cost a bundle so if that's included then it's probably a heck of a deal!  FWIW I don't think you could even give away a 16550A in this country any more.

It might be an ok deal for a 16500C or 167xx if it's loaded with cards and has all the pods and works.   But that series is excellent for wide parallel buses like ISA so you're on the right track.

   Agreed. If it had the cards that the OP needs then it should good.  The nice thing about the 16500 is that there's lot of different cards available for it.  The bad thing is that most of them boot from a floppy disk so the wait can be a PITA and the things are huge and heavy.  OTOH since it's an HP, they last a long time, there are lots of them out there and manuals are readily available.

   Warning to OP, don't buy any logic analyzer that doesn't come with the cables and the grabbers. Those things will cost more than a complete LA.

   The CRT/screen may have some burn on it but in general the screens in the HP stuff last just about forever.  But I would be worried about shipping one since they don't like rough treatment.  There are plenty of repair threads on this forum where people have repaired all kinds of CRT screens in HP gear.

well, i will tell you them complete story. Are not mine but. i have free access to a pair of analyzers. One, a legendary 1650A(resembles an apple Lisa) and the Other, a 3001MPX. The soute can't find the probes yet, and I don't have permission to poke in the store. Also, the HP has a deadly fault: when testing it, suddenly the fly-back collapsed, and screen started to blink and sound terrible. I can't find that goddamn flyback anywhere, nor any screen/card kit for that model. The Other is good, but has an annoying floppy drive problem, sometimes doesn't even start. So, kind of frustrated, thumped the table and decided to buy probes, but then thought:"well, this probes are mine, but the instruments not, so any fix or acquisition I made, if I later go, I will be with a pile of expensive and useless trash, and without any useful instrument", so I decided to buy a complete one. If i only see the price, aren't expensive at all, but shipping varies from 300USD to 5000 USD, so In some cases, the unit costs 300-400USD (excelent price for me), but shipping costs 1000 USD, so isn't a good deal. Also, fast shippings are useless here, customs checks are exhaustive and take months is the worst case (Fortunately there's no taxes for this kind of manufactures here), but most of time, most sellers don't want to wait 6 months for feedback, so they are reluctant to send them by ship or something longer but cheaper.

[gslick]

$400 is spendy for a 16550A.

    It certainly is in this country but probably not where the OP lives.  And shipping is going to cost a bundle so if that's included then it's probably a heck of a deal!  FWIW I don't think you could even give away a 16550A in this country any more.

A 16550A is a 102-channel / 6 POD, 100MHz state / 500MHz timing logic analyzer module. The sample depth is only 4K samples per channel, or 8K samples per channel in half channel mode.

The mainframes are the 16500A which is floppy only, and the 16500B and 16500C which have hard drives for booting and storing configuration and data files.

A good thing about a 16550A module is that it is compatible with 16500A, 16500B, and 16500C and also 16700A, 16700B, 16702A and 16702B mainframes. If you started with a 16500A mainframe you could move a 16550A module to a newer mainframe later. A 16500A mainframe is not compatible with 16555A 1M sample per channel modules. Basically the only good thing about a 16550A module is it's the module you probably want if the only mainframe you have is a 16500A mainframe. In most cases there is probably a huge difference in usability between a 4K sample 16550A module and a 1M 16555A module.

In my opinion for whatever it is worth the best uses of a 16500A mainframe or a 16550A module are as spare parts for newer mainframes and modules. I would want at least a 16500B or newer mainframe.

As far as giving away 16550A modules, I wonder about that myself. I have several and figure it might not be worth the effort to try to sell them on eBay. I could probably get more by removing the POD pair cables from the modules and selling those separately.

If you were looking at shipping something to Chile, an HP/Agilent 16500-series or 16700-series would be very expensive due to the size and weight. An HP/Agilent 1660-series or 1670-series is slightly smaller and lighter, but would still be expensive to ship there.

For Tektronix, I wouldn't want to ship a TLA711 mainframe. Those are even bigger and heavier than an HP 16500-series mainframe, but if you can find an affordable one local to you that you don't have to ship that might be an good option. It would be better to upgrade to a TLA721 controller.

[james_s]

I wouldn't worry about the CRTs, if the picture looks ok suggesting the tube is not too tired it will probably last a lifetime in hobbyist service.

$400 sounds a bit steep though, I mean what do you need two of them for? I use my HP logic analyzer occasionally but it's not something I use often enough to keep on the bench.

[gslick]

$400 sounds a bit steep though, I mean what do you need two of them for? I use my HP logic analyzer occasionally but it's not something I use often enough to keep on the bench.

$400 is very steep in the US. For that much these days you could get a loaded 16900A, or for around $100 a 1670-series, 16500-series, or 16700-series including shipping.

But for the original poster in Chile, the local options might be very few and shipping from elsewhere very expensive. If $400 includes shipping from somewhere else it might not get too much less than that for a traditional old school style logic analyzer system.

[Stray Electron]

  " I can't find that goddamn flyback anywhere".

   I'll bet you ten to one that if you get the PN from the service manual that you'll find that the same flyback is used in numerous other HP units.  I replaced the flyback in an HP 8754A Network Analyzer a couple of years ago with the identical part taken from one of the old plug in Polar/Rectangular displays for an HP 8510.

   But I have to agree with you, don't invest in any parts or accessories for that LA down there until they give it or sell it to you. If you pick it up, I'm sure that there are people here on the list that can help you with parts.   I just looked and I have an extra HP 16550A 100MHz State/ 500 MHz Timing acquisition board laying here with the cables and I know where there's a complete HP 16550C that hadn't been touched in years. I think I have a compete HP 16550A or B in my junk room.  IIRC the display is fine but occasionally the main PS won't start

   A local TE dealer in this area had an untested late model HP 1670 something for sale recently on E-bay for something like $35.  It had a couple of broken knobs on it but it looked complete and I'd be willing to wager money that it still worked.  I thought about buying it just for some of the hardware but decided that I really didn't need it.

   My first LA was a HP 1601L that plugged into a HP 180 scope mainframe.  IIRC it displayed all of 16 bits by 16 bit depth!  I used it about 10 years ago after replacing the 5V regulator in it and I'm pretty sure that I still have that thing sitting out in my back room.

[coldfiremc]

I have the impression that you misunderstood the offer. Are both LA's, with probes and cables for 400USD including shipping. Shipping is by Ship, not Air.
Locally this machines aren't even known. People just understand electronics in terms of PLC, oscilloscopes and Arduinoes. Goods like this are pretty scarce, so the probability of find one, is really low. Most electronic engineers even ignore the existence of those instrument mainframes.

[james_s]

Yeah the location does make it difficult to estimate, shipping such a bulky heavy instrument could cost a fortune. You are lucky to have surface shipping even available still, USPS dropped that years ago and now only offers expensive air freight which gets more expensive all the time.

[abraxa]

Those machines are pretty old and I can't imagine that they'd be fun to operate, compared to modern UIs. I wonder if those $400 would be better spent on a USB-based LA like a Hantek 4032L, Zeroplus Logic Cube or Intronix Logicport. Certainly, that would save on shipping as well.

[alm]

I have the impression that you misunderstood the offer. Are both LA's, with probes and cables for 400USD including shipping. Shipping is by Ship, not Air.

The HP 16550A is a plugin card that works with various 16500x and 1670x series mainframes. It is not a complete LA on its own. There are probably a couple of dozen different plugin cards for those mainframes, with different channel counts, speeds and memory depths.

Those machines are pretty old and I can't imagine that they'd be fun to operate, compared to modern UIs. I wonder if those $400 would be better spent on a USB-based LA like a Hantek 4032L, Zeroplus Logic Cube or Intronix Logicport. Certainly, that would save on shipping as well.

Depends on the channel count you need. With parallel buses and external memory interfaces, the required number of channels can grow fast. The old boat-anchors are a relatively cheap way to get dozens of channels. Support for old buses and CPUs (e.g. inverse assembler) might also be better for contemporary logic analyzers if you can find them (I believe the ones for the HP 16500 series are available for download). Obviously no contest if you want to monitor the I2C bus on an Arduino.

[nctnico]

I was looking a tek TLA 711 it's not 715, it's good too?. Obiously OS is old and harddisks are worn off, but nothing that a good ide2CF adaptor can't handle

A TLA711 is pretty old and huge and noisy. Shipping will be insanely expensive if it needs to come from abroad. I'd aim for a TLA715. These can be bought relatively cheap and the same goes for acquisition modules and probes. The main advantage over the HP/Agilent logic analysers is that you can use the latest software from a Windows PC to control them remotely and the timestamped acquisition mode doesn't cut the memory depth in half.

[coldfiremc]

Well I'm asking for another options for shipping, with the following LA/Mainframes

Tla 704
Tla 711
16500C
16702B

the guy of the first post still holds it's offer. The HP analizer is a 16500A. Was a typo.

[gslick]

The main advantage over the HP/Agilent logic analysers is that you can use the latest software from a Windows PC to control them remotely and the timestamped acquisition mode doesn't cut the memory depth in half.

It is true that if you use all of the POD pairs of an an HP/Agilent logic analyzer module set the acquisition memory depth is cut in half if the count time or states feature is enabled while in state acquisition mode.

For example with a single 16555A module there are two POD pairs, POD 1 and 2 is one pair, and POD 3 and 4 is another pair, for a total of 64 data channels and 4 clock channels. If you use both POD pairs because you need more than 2 clocks, or more than 32 data channels, or more than 16 data channels while some are demultiplexed, then the choices are either 1M sample depth with count time or states disabled, or 512K sample depth with count time or states enabled.

One solution if you need the full memory depth with all of the POD pairs in use with count time or states enabled is to add another identical module as a master / expander set. Not ideal that it works that way, but probably not a huge deal breaker in practice, except for the 1670-series where you can't just add another acquisition module. The 16500-series and the 16700-series work the same way regarding the maximum sample depth vs. the count time or states trade-off when all POD pairs are in use.

As far as I know on the 16900-series the count time or states feature cannot be turned off and the only options there are to leave at least one POD pair unassigned, or the maximum sample depth is cut in half. But on the other hand the 16900-series run Windows XP, or Windows 7 on newer versions, and can be remotely controlled by another Windows system, which can potentially be much faster and more responsive.

[coldfiremc]

Probes for TLA type units are still sold? Much of them come without probes

[nctnico]

Probes for TLA type units are still sold? Much of them come without probes

Yes, the probes are sold for low prices on Ebay.

[PaulAm]

I know you have limited choices, but

Avoid the 16500a; you can't give them away in the US.  Shipping those boxes is expensive and they are floppy based.  The 16500b with the network option or a 16500c is a better choice.   The network connectivity makes them much more useful.   A much better choice would be one of the 16700 series

I almost got rid of a 16500b the other month but the guy found a 16700 instead. 

[precaud]

In my opinion for whatever it is worth the best uses of a 16500A mainframe or a 16550A module are as spare parts for newer mainframes and modules.

Agreed. That's what I do with 'em.

[james_s]

Floppy based as in they run entirely off a floppy? Or do you just mean they use a floppy to transfer files? I have a 1660C that has a floppy but I rarely use that, normally I just work off the internal hard drive. It's a boat anchor for sure but there are times when I'm working on vintage arcade hardware that being able to capture a zillion channels is handy.

[TK]

Floppy based as in they run entirely off a floppy? Or do you just mean they use a floppy to transfer files? I have a 1660C that has a floppy but I rarely use that, normally I just work off the internal hard drive. It's a boat anchor for sure but there are times when I'm working on vintage arcade hardware that being able to capture a zillion channels is handy.

The 16500A loads the OS from the floppy.  It does not have a Hard Drive.