Low Cost Cap Tester, ESR, LCR 2018

[bugi]

It depends on how that cap is used. If it is after a simple rectifier...

The capacitors I intend to test have already been desoldered and removed from the circuit.  I basically need to just plug my caps legs straight into the meter, which seems possible without even using the test leads it comes with.

I meant it for deciding which test frequency to use, not just randomly go with 1kHz. I.e. it depends on the intended use case. From the capacity and voltage ratings I guessed what the caps were used for. Then again, if one is only interested in an about figure (ok vs. not ok), it doesn't matter as much.

[Shock]

The capacitors I intend to test have already been desoldered and removed from the circuit.  I basically need to just plug my caps legs straight into the meter, which seems possible without even using the test leads it comes with.

Use the TL-21 or leads, don't wreck the internal contacts read the CAL (zeroing) section of the manual.

[JDW]

Use the TL-21 or leads, don't wreck the internal contacts read the CAL (zeroing) section of the manual.

Really? On what page of the manual does it say "NEVER plug leaded capacitors into the slots on the meter intended for leaded capacitors"?  I see a drawing of a component fitted into the + & - slots on page 20, with no warning attached.  Have a look:

https://akizukidenshi.com/download/ds/deree/DE-5000_manu_en2p.pdf

[Shock]

Really? On what page of the manual does it say "NEVER plug leaded capacitors into the slots on the meter intended for leaded capacitors"?  I see a drawing of a component fitted into the + & - slots on page 20, with no warning attached.

Thanks I already have the manual I was the one who linked you to it.

Perhaps it's experience using similar equipment for years and I didn't read it in the manual. I'd make some decent test fittings, but you can do whatever you like.

[JDW]

You didn't explain what you meant in your previous post, so I assume you meant to say this (correct me if my guess is wrong): "Using the meter's slit-openings (see the upper of #15 on page 8 of the Manual) rather than using the test leads (e.g., TL21, etc.) may wear out the slit-openings over time, and therefore I highly recommend all DE-5000 users use the test leads instead of directly plugging-in leaded capacitors into the meter."

[Shock]

You didn't explain what you meant in your previous post, so I assume you meant to say this (correct me if my guess is wrong): "Using the meter's slit-openings (see the upper of #15 on page 8 of the Manual) rather than using the test leads (e.g., TL21, etc.) may wear out the slit-openings over time, and therefore I highly recommend all DE-5000 users use the test leads instead of directly plugging-in leaded capacitors into the meter."

Yeah use the TL-21 or leads, don't wreck the internal contacts.

[JDW]

Thank you for the helpful information.  I placed an order for this DE-5000 kit, from a seller based in Japan:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DER-EE-DE-5000-High-Accuracy-Handheld-LCR-Meter-w-TL-21-TL-22-TL-23/282040803373

I won't consider building a new set of cables until I've gotten a bit familiar with the device.  The included cables in the kit will be more than adequate to start.

I have one last question, if you don't mind.  The TL-23 Guard Line is only briefly mentioned in the documentation.  Could you explain its proper use?

Thank you!

[Shock]

You can have guarding on cabling, PCB traces and test fixtures. It's used to reduce leakage current from and noise onto to the measurement/signal wires.

There is a free book called "Low Level Measurements Handbook" put out by Keithley if you are interested in reading more info.

[bugi]

I think I've already commented a bit about this somewhere before, but... i have also been wondering how it is supposed to be used, as every document, or comment here, has so far just referred to different generic explanations based on the term "guarding", but which actually does not apply in this DE-5000, or the referred document has been just as vague as everything else.

On DE-5000 the way the guarding is wired inside the device, it won't reduce leakage the way the guarding is often (or usually?) understood (i.e. to track the measurement signal so that the measurement signal to guard voltage difference is zero, so no leakage is possible for the measurement signal). Alas, the "guard" in DE-5000 is simply connected to the negative supply plane on the device, and the measurement levels have a bit of positive offset, so there will be (a little bit of) leakage.

I would imagine the idea would be to connect the guard to target device's ground/negative plane (assuming the component/circuit is still in the device), so it will make the DE-5000's negative supply level to track whatever the guard is connected to, so it might reduce noises indirectly. Note, with the usual way the clips/etc are wired, there won't be full end-to-end connection in the shielding, even with guard connected, so it probably won't help against noise the way e.g. how oscilloscope probes' shielding/ground clip works. Note also that if the DE-5000 is powered from the DC input (not with battery), connecting the "guard" = DE-5000 negative supply = DC brick's negative supply might have some less useful effects, too.

[Calambres]

I've just received the DER DE-5000 tester. Following Dave's motto I opened it up and found that it's lacking the infamous D5 reverse polarity protection diode.
Board is Rev.8

Should I put a diode there?

After much reading I'm not sure whether it is better to put that diode there or not.

[bugi]

I've just received this tester. Following Dave's motto I opened it up and found that it's lacking the infamous D5 reverse polarity protection diode.
Board is Rev.8

Should I put a diode there?

After much reading I'm not sure whether it is better to put that diode there or not.

IIRC, I have the same situation (the DC input path does have such diode, though). I planned to insert a proper FET-based protection instead of that silly suicidal-diode (and few other improvements), I just haven't had the time to implement that change, yet.

[lisafig]

Quote from: elgato on Yesterday at 22:37:35

I'm afraid you have to build it yourself

the DE-5000 which cost around 100$. Which cheaper version do you recommend (I'm a beginner)

it should:
● <35$
● be assembled
● it should work in-circuit
● with the best range possible (to test caps from stuff like kitchen microwave to in little Arduino circuits)

optional:
● the device could also test other components (such as the 328 versions)
● protected (but it doesn't seem the big deal to  discharge the caps)
● work in a live circuit (not even sure it's possible)


If I understood well, the DIY component tester (the last version seems to be 328?) don't seem to work in-circuit (because it sends too much voltage to test). Do you confirm?

I fund this one:  Excelvan M6013 https://www.amazon.com/Excelvan-Capacitance-Capacitor-Professional-470000uF/dp/B009CSR8BA/

ps: There is just too many outdated information spread throughout the years and crazy long threads, so I created a table to try to summarize some points but I'm just lost. Every little contribution to improve it is welcome. No sign-in is required, but if you master the topic and you are ready to watch and filter the user's input, don't hesitate to take the ownership of it (user will ask you to edit it). https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rPS_IGrx5Mb8YCJV1efvbXw0whv1zEn_HW98xHTFB1E/edit?usp=sharing

[kripton2035]

I fund this one:  Excelvan M6013

this one gives you capacity, but not the esr value.

[kripton2035]

● protected (but it doesn't seem the big deal to  discharge the caps)
● work in a live circuit (not even sure it's possible)

the only one I know that is protected (well) and works on a live circuit is the ESR meter DMM adapter from Jay_Diddy_B
http://kripton2035.free.fr/analog%20esr/esr-dmm-adapter-.html
but it's a (simple) DIY meter, cost almost nothing, but you have to build it yourself.

[Shock]

● be assembled
● it should work in-circuit
optional:
● protected (but it doesn't seem the big deal to  discharge the caps)
● work in a live circuit (not even sure it's possible)

Normally people want both in circuit testing and input protection together otherwise if you make a mistake and zap the input your meters microcontroller will likely be toasted.

The ESR meter applies its own low test voltage, so the DUT (device under test) needs to be powered off and it's capacitors discharged (either that or you tempt fate). Best way is to discharge gracefully with a resistor discharge cable. You can make for a few dollars or with salvaged parts for free.

Another thing to be aware of, when testing in circuit if there is capacitance or resistance in parallel you have to be prepared to lift a side of the capacitor or remove from circuit to measure it properly.

Some ESR testers have an automated discharge circuit but for various reasons price/design/discharge specs they aren't any better than the good old Bob Parker design with the protection diode mod. I have the Altronics (Australia) version of the Bob Parker which is a kitset and easy to add the mod to. EVB (Portugal) does a preassembled model with input protection included for a similar price.

If it must be under $35 and assembled I'd try to get a Chinese AY-AT PCB preassembled. Then save for a Bob Parker. It should have all the basic features of the AVR component tester and firmware upgrades. Not really designed for in circuit testing and non existent protection but so handy you will want one eventually anyway.

[lisafig]

it's a (simple) DIY meter, cost almost nothing, but you have to build it yourself.

Thanks, that look perfect but that's not a task for beginner. I looked at the files, but I should first understand where the components goes (and thus the complicate schematic ― I dont even know how to open a Gerber file). And to find the right component looks even harder (I could not even find the first item: assuming C1 is the first capacitor, I googled "1n 1206" capacitor, I found several types, so which one?). And without even talking about making this PCB with the tracks and then soldering those tiny components. It would take me months to do that!

Is there a reason the chineses don't sell it? (They sell pretty much everything, why not this?)

But thank you very much for sharing your work!

[kripton2035]

I dont even know how to open a Gerber file

you download them and them upload them to some pcb service like jlcpcb : https://jlcpcb.com/quote
and you get 5 boards for some 13€ delivered to france in some weeks.
for the components, any type can go.
also look at the original thread for this esr diy meter, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/esr-meter-adapter-design-and-construction/
there are lots of talks about it, and also people that made a through-hole (no-smd) version that is more suited to beginners.

[lisafig]

I dont even know how to open a Gerber file

you download them and them upload them to some pcb service like jlcpcb : https://jlcpcb.com/quote
and you get 5 boards for some 13€ delivered to france in some weeks.
for the components, any type can go.
also look at the original thread for this esr diy meter, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/esr-meter-adapter-design-and-construction/
there are lots of talks about it, and also people that made a through-hole (no-smd) version that is more suited to beginners.

Thanks a lot for your patience and explanation I'll give a second try.

(I will try to find the component and post the shopping list which will save some hours/days for the next one)

[lisafig]

If it must be under $35 and assembled I'd try to get a Chinese AY-AT PCB preassembled. [...] It should have all the basic features of the AVR component tester and firmware upgrades. Not really designed for in circuit testing and non existent protection but so handy you will want one eventually anyway.

Thank you very much for your explanations! 

But I read that we shouldn't use AY-AT PCB in-circuit since it will send 9V into it, which might destroy some component.

Then save for a Bob Parker.

Ok, but that's quite expensive:
the Portugal version cost 67$ (59€) http://clientes.netvisao.pt/greenpal/evb1.htm
Somehow the kit version cost even more (90$, without shipping) https://www.altronics.com.au/p/k2574-esr-meter-kit/.
(For 110$ you get the "ESR70 - Atlas ESR PLUS" https://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/esr70-capacitor-esr-meter.html )

(And they only measure ESR)


So if I understand well, the only available solution of ESR working in-circuit <35$ in 2019 is the DIY version of Jay_Diddy_B: http://kripton2035.free.fr/analog%20esr/esr-dmm-adapter-.html

Thanks a lot for your help!

(all about ESR meters & Component tester on a comparison sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rPS_IGrx5Mb8YCJV1efvbXw0whv1zEn_HW98xHTFB1E )

[Shock]

The perfect device you want doesn't exist. As I said the AY-AT is not specifically designed for in circuit testing because it has no protection. But it's the cheapest least effort for ESR testing and generally a handy device. I have no idea of the test voltage anymore since I purchased mine there has been a lot of feature creep.

I have the J_Diddy_B Esr Meter Adapter as well. It's a fairly simple circuit but ordering the parts and PCB, then soldering it together can be a challenge for a beginner as it takes effort. There is also a few hidden costs, you need a project case, a set or two of banana leads and minihooks or probes are handy. It's designed to work with a multimeter that has Relative/Delta mode, otherwise you have to calculate the lead offset.

Just letting you know these things before you dive in. I'm not trying to put you off making one though it's a good circuit and making kits and circuits is a great way to learn.

An EVB model with diode protection (they don't mark this clearly on their website) is going to be the least effort, the easiest to use and probably the most reliable. It doesn't have a lot of features but is the best for in circuit testing without having to make your own.

The Altronics kitset is $90 AUD or ~$60 Euro (excluding shipping).

The Atlas ESR series has limited in circuit protection and are not really what I would call repair friendly, they do measure capacitance however. You need to look closely at the specs. I think the Bob Parker is a better design.

[kripton2035]

The perfect device you want doesn't exist

so the only issue is to think and make a new one with all the features you want inside ...

[kripton2035]

So if I understand well, the only available solution of ESR working in-circuit <35$ in 2019 is the DIY version of Jay_Diddy_B: http://kripton2035.free.fr/analog%20esr/esr-dmm-adapter-.html

I'm trying to make one with an integrated display. it's on a good way, but not finished yet. I will publish it when it's ready, and certainly make boards for it. as it is all smd actually, it's really tiny for beginners !

[lisafig]

I'm trying to make one with an integrated display. it's on a good way, but not finished yet. I will publish it when it's ready,

Please hurry up!  The world is waiting for it!  (My voltmetre doesn't have the relative delta...).

it is all smd actually, it's really tiny for beginners!

I watched many tutos on it so I feel ready (well, if the components aren't too expensive)

I have posted a question here about the potentiometer : https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/esr-meter-adapter-design-and-construction/msg2156443/#msg2156443 . Any idea?

[Shock]

I'm trying to make one with an integrated display. it's on a good way, but not finished yet. I will publish it when it's ready, and certainly make boards for it. as it is all smd actually, it's really tiny for beginners !

Project name: Kripdiddy

The perfect device you want doesn't exist

so the only issue is to think and make a new one with all the features you want inside ...

I already know what features I like and what I would do, yes integrated display is one of them

[lisafig]

Shock, you wrote about the J_Diddy_B Esr Meter Adapter that:

It's designed to work with a multimeter that has Relative/Delta mode, otherwise, you have to calculate the lead offset.

My multimeter doesn't have the Relative delta mode, so how can I calculate the lead offset?

AY-AT is not specifically designed for in-circuit testing because it has no protection.

I may not understand it, but the "no protection" issue doesn't seem to be the big deal if we take the time to discharge the caps before testing them. The real issue seems to be that it throws too much power on the circuit (someone says 9V vs some milli-volt for the in-circuit ESR meters) which might trigger the semiconductor, and even burns component. I read this in several places, including on Amazon comment that it should not be used in-circuit.