Author Topic: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter  (Read 162890 times)

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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 03:04:12 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2013, 02:51:29 am »
Nice! Cant wait for the review!
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!
 
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Offline ChrisGammell

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2013, 02:51:48 am »
So nice. So cheap!
 
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Offline Fsck

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2013, 02:53:59 am »
Hello sexy colour display.
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
 
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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2013, 02:56:06 am »
Finaly,Trend plot on a Agilent.  Looks realy good :-+
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2013, 03:05:31 am »
Finaly,Trend plot on a Agilent.  Looks realy good :-+

That green screen Fluke looks pretty 1980's now doesn't it  :P
 
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Offline digsys

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2013, 03:12:36 am »
Quote from: ChrisGammell
  So nice. So cheap! 
$1,100-1,200 .. Guess you'd need to need all the fancy buttons :-)
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2013, 03:36:08 am »
Quote from: ChrisGammell
  So nice. So cheap! 
$1,100-1,200 .. Guess you'd need to need all the fancy buttons :-)

US$945 and $US1095
 
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Offline nukie

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2013, 03:43:53 am »
I assume its made in Malaysia?
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2013, 03:45:48 am »
I assume its made in Malaysia?

Correctamundo.
 
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Offline AlfBaz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2013, 04:19:20 am »
LXI GPIB optional  :palm:
 
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Offline AlfBaz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2013, 05:09:36 am »
That's odd the web page says "LAN/LXI (optional), GPIB (optional)"
In the pdf under options it says "3446LANU Enable rear panel LAN/LXI web interface, ..." INCLUDED STANDARD.

Just checked some more. It seems they have mixed it up on the web page. Its optional for the 60A, included for the 61A
 
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2013, 05:38:23 am »
The 34461A looks very interesting -- nice specs, nice flashy new GUI, USB and LXI. Only thing they omitted was Capacitance measurement, which is of questionable value on a high end DMM.

The cheaper 34460A is not much of a bargain compared to the 34461A. Half the precision of the 34461A, reduced capability, no LXI, no probes, they even took out the USB cable (cheapscates!).

So my question, is the 34461A worth the 300USD over the 34450A? The 34450A has all of the features one would _need_ in a "budget" bench DMM. However the 34461A has 4x the precision, 6.5 digits, faster measurement rate, color GUI, LXI, etc.

I really think that Agilent has done to the bench DMM market what they had done with the X2000/X3000 scopes to the scope market last year.
I never did a day's work in my life, it was all fun -- Thomas Edison.
 
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Offline PA4TIM

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2013, 06:41:06 am »
A keithley 2000 was allready cheaper as the Fluke and agilents and Keitley has just this month introduced some cheaper models. They are maybe not that fancy lookimg but they sure are good and especially accurate-over-time meters. But I never hear much over them on this forum.
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2013, 06:43:50 am »
The cheaper 34460A is not much of a bargain compared to the 34461A. Half the precision of the 34461A, reduced capability, no LXI, no probes, they even took out the USB cable (cheapscates!).

I agree.
If you can afford $945 you can afford to spring the extra.

Quote
So my question, is the 34461A worth the 300USD over the 34450A? The 34450A has all of the features one would _need_ in a "budget" bench DMM. However the 34461A has 4x the precision, 6.5 digits, faster measurement rate, color GUI, LXI, etc.

The ability to get trend plots and histograms in the unit (as opposed to PC control) is worth it's weight on gold to some people.

Quote
I really think that Agilent has done to the bench DMM market what they had done with the X2000/X3000 scopes to the scope market last year.

Not quite that far, as there aren't any huge feature innovations here, but yeah, it's designed to give the competition a real kick up the butt.
 
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Offline Fsck

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 07:08:46 am »
Well DMM market is pretty stagnant. The 3458A is.. older than I am (the manual I have says Edition 1 came out in 1988)
I'm kind of curious to know when Rigol's going to stick their finger in the 8.5d pot.
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
 
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Offline AlfBaz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 07:32:24 am »
A lot of companies seem to be doing this weird model placement. I know canon are doing it with their DSLR's.
They bring out a new model that supposedly fits between existing models (although here they are suggesting it replaces the 34401) and then cram it full of features the next model up doesn't have but lacks some of the superiority in measurement accuracy (aka 34410)
 
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 07:37:58 am »
Could we have a quick, first impression, video on how the unit feels in your hands?

Use it to make some measurements, especially the bar graph, histogram, trend plot, etc. Save some data to flash drive, is it fast enough to be usable? Is the display responsive? Any lag during measurements? Any lag on going through the menus? Or will you stick to your tradition of first taking it apart? We kind of know/expect that the insides will be first class, and the specs to be dead on, but want to know how well the unit lives up to usability and how well the new features actually work.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 08:25:54 am »
LXI GPIB optional  :palm:
Seems entirely sensible that the baseline model has _some_ connectivity, via USB, and that others are options for people that need them.
GPIB is surely on its way to the graveyard, and including it as standard on any gear nowadays would be an unnecessary expense for the majority of users.

 
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Offline IanB

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 09:12:09 am »
I wonder if the quality of the solder joints is up to snuff?  ;D
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2013, 09:26:49 am »
Could we have a quick, first impression, video on how the unit feels in your hands?
Use it to make some measurements, especially the bar graph, histogram, trend plot, etc. Save some data to flash drive, is it fast enough to be usable? Is the display responsive? Any lag during measurements? Any lag on going through the menus? Or will you stick to your tradition of first taking it apart? We kind of know/expect that the insides will be first class, and the specs to be dead on, but want to know how well the unit lives up to usability and how well the new features actually work.

I do could that if there is enough interest.
I was planing on having a review and teardown ready on the release date (was supposed to be June 17th, don't know why it's early), but that's tight.
I've had a quick play and it feels as good as it looks. No response issues, but I just played at home without measuring anything. My guess would have been it would have cost at least twice as much, but I only found at the price yesterday and was quite staggered.
It runs windows CE, and I have been told I have pre-release firmware with a longer boot time, but seemed ok to me considering.
 
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Offline fpga

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New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2013, 09:44:23 am »
Could we have a quick tour today?
I never did a day's work in my life, it was all fun -- Thomas Edison.
 
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Offline AlfBaz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2013, 09:47:49 am »
LXI GPIB optional  :palm:
Seems entirely sensible that the baseline model has _some_ connectivity, via USB, and that others are options for people that need them.
GPIB is surely on its way to the graveyard, and including it as standard on any gear nowadays would be an unnecessary expense for the majority of users.
I'm not up to speed with communication offerings from new test gear, but if I don't see visa mentioned anywhere in USB connectivity does this mean you have to program each device using proprietary commands related to each devices' driver? If this is indeed true and you are paying 1k+ for a multimeter surely you intend on carrying out setups that involve coms with more than one instrument
 
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Offline Hypernova

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2013, 10:21:23 am »
If it's anything like the scopes what you get with USB a also a USB serial SCPI interface, so ubiquitous SCPI command support should be there.
 
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Offline AlfBaz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2013, 10:26:58 am »
If it's anything like the scopes what you get with USB a also a USB serial SCPI interface, so ubiquitous SCPI command support should be there.

Thanks, good to know

Edit: I guess I should do some reading to find out for my self, but if I have a bunch of code that does coms to instruments via gpib-32.dll, would I have to talk to these USB scpi instruments through some vendor specific dll or will the gpiib-32.dll handle it?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 10:33:37 am by AlfBaz »
 
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Offline Hypernova

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2013, 10:39:40 am »
If it's anything like the scopes what you get with USB a also a USB serial SCPI interface, so ubiquitous SCPI command support should be there.

Thanks, good to know

Edit: I guess I should do some reading to find out for my self, but if I have a bunch of code that does coms to instruments via gpib-32.dll, would I have to talk to these USB scpi instruments through some vendor specific dll or will the gpiib-32.dll handle it?

No idea about that since I've only played with Command Expert's Excel plug in, which does connection through Agilent IO library which treat all devices from different buses like they are just different addresses.
 
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Offline bingo600

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2013, 12:16:16 pm »
If it's anything like the scopes what you get with USB a also a USB serial SCPI interface, so ubiquitous SCPI command support should be there.

Thanks, good to know

Edit: I guess I should do some reading to find out for my self, but if I have a bunch of code that does coms to instruments via gpib-32.dll, would I have to talk to these USB scpi instruments through some vendor specific dll or will the gpiib-32.dll handle it?

AlfBaz google USBTMC

http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/044FA220F32774ED86256DB3005850CA

/Bingo

Ps: How's the 3457A program comming along , do you master your Agilent USB-GPIB  ;)
Drop me a PN ...

 
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Offline saturation

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2013, 12:37:12 pm »
Scanning its other bench MM available now, the differences between each model are increasing fine.  The service manual is available and I like that like its HH DMMs, calibration can be done either manually one range at a time, or automatically.  You can tweak a single function and range without affecting  or needing to adjust the other ranges or functions.
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 
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Offline Circuitous

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2013, 12:44:00 pm »
The specs look quite similar to my 34410A, with the addition of a 10A range.  But, it only takes 1,000 samples/sec.  I'm really looking forward to the review. 
I wonder if the fan is as loud as the 34410A?  The fan in mine is similar to the DS1052E, maybe even louder.
 
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Offline Christe4nM

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2013, 12:51:35 pm »
Dave, I'm most interested in a first impression / review AND teardown of course! Curious to know what that trueVolt stuff is they mention.

Things I'd like to know how the color display is compared to VFD for example. It is easy to read from an odd angle, and is a quick glance enough to see what you want to see? I mean, when there is just a single color number against a black background that's easy to read. Now it displays UI together with your reading, possible making that quick glance into a longer glance to interpret what your eyes see. It seems a trend to get these color displays in instruments, but I really like to know if that is just the best option today or that 7segment, VFD etc are still considered more user friendly. What do people think about the displays in the rigol PSU's for example?

This morning I spend a bit of time comparing the 34410a (not 34401a!) and 34411 to the 34461a, and basically I cannot see why the latter aren't replaced as well. It seems only a small step up from the 34461a, so I'd think they would do that as well with say a '34466a'. It would at least bring the price on those units down. That would indeed be to the bench DMM market what the the 2000X,3000X did to the scope market like someone mentioned above.
 
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Offline nukie

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2013, 02:02:23 pm »
The hp34410a failed to replace the industry standard 34401a, I hope this new colourful unit gain some popularity. I stick to Keithley 2K for long term accuracy.
 
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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2013, 03:29:00 pm »
Finaly,Trend plot on a Agilent.  Looks realy good :-+

That green screen Fluke looks pretty 1980's now doesn't it  :P

[/8846A fanboy]
[attempt to be objective mode] ::)

The 34461 screen is awesome, this is a VERY nice meter. There are several things that are an improvement over the 8846A.
Trend chart is more versatile in what it displays and shows the axis scales rather than them being implied. 
Limits is a nice feature that is integrated very nicely into all the display modes.
Probe hold looks extremely handy with up to 8 measurements displayed (can be a mix types of measuremants)
Statistics has span displayed.
Bar meter looks nice because it has configurable span and center.
Better ACI performance outside the 10Hz to 5kHz band
More modern manual with more measurement technique information.


linearity and input bias current are the same on both. 
Max reading rates are basicaly identical except the 34461A is faster on AC
EDIT: both meters need to add offset compensated ohms on the 4 wire resistance mode >:(

But for $280 dollars more you get:
1000V
24ppm instead of 35ppm DC
Dual display mode
Capacitance
Better DCI performance 1A and above
Generaly lower burden voltages
10 ohm and 1Gohm ranges on resistance
1MHz frequency
5V and 10v diode ranges
Selectable continuity threshold from 1 to 1000 ohms at 300 samples per second
Better NMR 100db vs 60db above 1PLC
Very high resolution available on trend plot down to 1nV below 100µV readings

If you dont need any of the things listed for the 8846A you would be crazy to not buy the 34461A :-+

[/attempt to be objective mode]
[8846A fanboy]

That was hard :phew:
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 08:46:21 pm by robrenz »
 
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Offline bingo600

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2013, 05:30:56 pm »
Ohh btw. Dave

Did Agilent keep their promise , by lowering the voltages used when testing in the Ohms range ?

I think someone complained that he fried an expensive 1.2v board , using a 34401A. When he was measuring some traces in the ohms range.

You could mention that in the video.

/Bingo
 
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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2013, 05:38:14 pm »
Multimeter with Windows and colorful LCD, welcome to the 21st century. Might be useful for those who want statistic functions or such things
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 
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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2013, 05:45:54 pm »
It looks familiar.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 
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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2013, 06:05:37 pm »
People have no idea how usefull Trend plot is until they us it a while.
Visual indication of when a signal has settled and if it has any intentions of settling (logarithmic shape evidenced or not).
Stability testing of power supplies, etc. etc.

What else can graph/check the stability of a 10V signal at 10nV resolution over hours or days without a pc?
meter is zeroed before going into Trend plot in each of the three examples of a PD2005 power supply at 10V

Cold start 7mins 27 secs elapsed


4 hours 5 mins additional


3 days 17hrs 26mins additional
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 06:11:51 pm by robrenz »
 
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Offline c4757p

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2013, 06:07:59 pm »
People have no idea how usefull Trend plot is until they us it a while.

I don't have one and I drool over it every time I see yours!

Hey, that's actually a good idea. I've got a Fluke 45 with RS-232 output - I ought to spend a weekend throwing together a little receiver+display to throw on that and get a trend plot.
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Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2013, 06:55:37 pm »
So Im kinda confused, how is Trending different than Datalogging if they are both done in the DMM?
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Offline IanB

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2013, 06:57:05 pm »
So Im kinda confused, how is Trending different than Datalogging if they are both done in the DMM?

Trending shows you a graph of the data?
 
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Offline saturation

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2013, 07:03:33 pm »
Yes, trend plot is great  :-+; you can eyeball a lot the data trends very rapidly; I lust after such a function.  I have to datacapture it from the DMM and plot it via PC  :palm:

People have no idea how usefull Trend plot is until they us it a while.

I don't have one and I drool over it every time I see yours!

Hey, that's actually a good idea. I've got a Fluke 45 with RS-232 output - I ought to spend a weekend throwing together a little receiver+display to throw on that and get a trend plot.
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 
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Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2013, 07:31:45 pm »
So Im kinda confused, how is Trending different than Datalogging if they are both done in the DMM?

Trending shows you a graph of the data?
Hmmm... Maybe. I guess more specifically where Im confused is that I have an Agilent 34450A on order and it does datalogging with a graphical OLED display and Im wondering whats lacking (if anything) in that functionality from what the 34461A offers and whether or not its just the same thing but with a color display.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!
 
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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2013, 07:43:14 pm »
looks like the 34450A has  statistics and histogram but no live graphing.
 
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2013, 08:32:47 pm »
You can "do" everything on DMMs with PC connectivity that the 34461A can, except that the 34461A also can display it in realtime without any programming. This in itself can be a huge productivity boost if you can quickly perform various different measurements quickly at will. True, you can capture the data to a PC and then run an application to do statistics or graph it, but somehow it is not the same as having it all done in front of you right there on the bench.

For manufacturing, automated testing, or calibration use, having the instrument display the data is not as useful as an automated application running on a PC that simply tells the operator GO or NO-GO. As designers and engineers, we want the data displayed right when we are probing.
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2013, 08:36:47 pm »
Interesting that they removed dual display from the 34461A. All of the older models, including the 34450A could display two different measurements at the same time. The 34461A displays more than one value only with the statistics display enabled, and then only in small fonts.
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2013, 08:42:37 pm »
So Im kinda confused, how is Trending different than Datalogging if they are both done in the DMM?

Trending shows you a graph of the data?
Hmmm... Maybe. I guess more specifically where Im confused is that I have an Agilent 34450A on order and it does datalogging with a graphical OLED display and Im wondering whats lacking (if anything) in that functionality from what the 34461A offers and whether or not its just the same thing but with a color display.

Don't you just hate it when they come out with a nicer and better model soon after you ordered an older model. I kind of wish I waited an extra 1.5 weeks. |O
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Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2013, 08:48:08 pm »
So Im kinda confused, how is Trending different than Datalogging if they are both done in the DMM?

Trending shows you a graph of the data?
Hmmm... Maybe. I guess more specifically where Im confused is that I have an Agilent 34450A on order and it does datalogging with a graphical OLED display and Im wondering whats lacking (if anything) in that functionality from what the 34461A offers and whether or not its just the same thing but with a color display.

Don't you just hate it when they come out with a nicer and better model soon after you ordered an older model. I kind of wish I waited an extra 1.5 weeks. |O
Ha ha usually, but in this case not so much. The 34405A WAS already the "only an additional $300 more" model for me and overkill for what I need as it is. Spending $1100 on the 34461A just wasnt going to happen anyway. As it is though my Fluke 289 is plenty enough for 99% of my needs, Ive just always wanted a nice benchtop DMM. NOW, if it had been only $100 more or something like that, yea, Id have been upset.
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Offline Rufus

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2013, 10:30:00 pm »
So nice. So cheap!

The 61A price is a bit less than the 34401A.

My 34401A manuals show copyright from 1991. Considering developments in the electronics industry over the last 22 years getting substantially more for your money isn't so surprising.

I think I will tentatively put one on my shopping list. Look forward to seeing a review. 
 
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2013, 10:58:21 pm »
Ha ha usually, but in this case not so much. The 34405A WAS already the "only an additional $300 more" model for me and overkill for what I need as it is. Spending $1100 on the 34461A just wasnt going to happen anyway. As it is though my Fluke 289 is plenty enough for 99% of my needs, Ive just always wanted a nice benchtop DMM. NOW, if it had been only $100 more or something like that, yea, Id have been upset.

Actually, I just got a quote for $985.50 USD for the 34461A from an authorized distributor. I also have several cheap handheld DMMs for debugging work, but always wanted (sometimes needed) a DMM with 5.5 digit or better certified accuracy. Sometimes I need to monitor and perform V or I tracking over time as I stress test a circuit. Being able see a trend plot right there in front of you is highly valuable as opposed to capturing the data on a PC and plotting it in Excel. Doing the same using hand held DMMs is time consuming.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2013, 04:59:41 am »
Ha ha usually, but in this case not so much. The 34405A WAS already the "only an additional $300 more" model for me and overkill for what I need as it is. Spending $1100 on the 34461A just wasnt going to happen anyway. As it is though my Fluke 289 is plenty enough for 99% of my needs, Ive just always wanted a nice benchtop DMM. NOW, if it had been only $100 more or something like that, yea, Id have been upset.

Actually, I just got a quote for $985.50 USD for the 34461A from an authorized distributor. I also have several cheap handheld DMMs for debugging work, but always wanted (sometimes needed) a DMM with 5.5 digit or better certified accuracy. Sometimes I need to monitor and perform V or I tracking over time as I stress test a circuit. Being able see a trend plot right there in front of you is highly valuable as opposed to capturing the data on a PC and plotting it in Excel. Doing the same using hand held DMMs is time consuming.
Stop it! Youre trying to make me feel bad for ordering the 34450A!
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2013, 05:38:57 am »
Stop it! Youre trying to make me feel bad for ordering the 34450A!

I'm returning the 34450A I just got (haven't even powered it) and ordering the 34461A. Hopefully my only loss is the shipping back and forth. I just hope Dave doesn't uncover something in his 34461A review I'll regret.

But seriously, if I had a Fluke 289, I wouldn't be able to justify to myself ordering a $1000 DMM. The Fluke 289 has stats, bar, trend, data logging, so you're right, it can do at least 95% of what any engineer would ever need. In my case my only other DMM is a cheap $50 handheld on which I don't trust to better than 10%. I was initially looking for something in the $500 range, and now the Agilent carrot on the stick led me to spending $1000.

My hope is that when they release the 34470A/34471A to replace the 34410A/34411A, that they will price it significantly higher not to tempt anyone here.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2013, 06:31:31 am »
Stop it! Youre trying to make me feel bad for ordering the 34450A!

I'm returning the 34450A I just got (haven't even powered it) and ordering the 34461A. Hopefully my only loss is the shipping back and forth. I just hope Dave doesn't uncover something in his 34461A review I'll regret.

But seriously, if I had a Fluke 289, I wouldn't be able to justify to myself ordering a $1000 DMM. The Fluke 289 has stats, bar, trend, data logging, so you're right, it can do at least 95% of what any engineer would ever need. In my case my only other DMM is a cheap $50 handheld on which I don't trust to better than 10%. I was initially looking for something in the $500 range, and now the Agilent carrot on the stick led me to spending $1000.

My hope is that when they release the 34470A/34471A to replace the 34410A/34411A, that they will price it significantly higher not to tempt anyone here.
Yea I might be more tempted if I could even cancel my order, but once it was placed with TestEquipmentDepot for $787 out the door I was committed to it with no backing out and FOUR month delivery time. So no matter the temptation Im stuck until September anyway.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2013, 07:26:42 am »
Don't you just hate it when they come out with a nicer and better model soon after you ordered an older model. I kind of wish I waited an extra 1.5 weeks. |O

That does suck!
Not even I knew it was coming 1.5 weeks ago.
Quick resell it on ebay before the masses find out!
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2013, 07:33:19 am »
Hmmm... Maybe. I guess more specifically where Im confused is that I have an Agilent 34450A on order and it does datalogging with a graphical OLED display and Im wondering whats lacking (if anything) in that functionality from what the 34461A offers and whether or not its just the same thing but with a color display.

The 34450A is 5.5 digits vs 6.5 digits for starters, and 3 times better accuracy or so. But it doesn't have dual display.
And no graphing capability, although I think it does some stats.
Also much slower update speed.
At $787 vs $945 for the 34460A, there isn't much in that price, and I think you get a lot more bang-per-buck there on the new model.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2013, 07:37:05 am »
I would love to see a 6-1/2 digit DMM use the LTZ1000AH-- the goal would be lower 1/f noise (DC-10Hz), less drift between calibrations, and a 3-year calibration cycle (after the first year) vs. a 1-year calibration cycle.  This would lower the cost of ownership, and give more meaning to the last digit.

The new 34461A gives specs for 2 years cal intervals along with the traditional 24hr/90day/1 year specs.
 
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Offline Hypernova

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2013, 07:48:23 am »
If one has the facilities, what about swapping out the reference? If it's just another 399 based 6.5 the rigol DM3068  is much better value for money as it also have rough histogram/trend AND cap measurements. Every once in a while I open its product page and go "hmmm..." but never could pull the trigger. Dave's review is going to be a big factor.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 07:50:25 am by Hypernova »
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2013, 09:15:42 am »
Looking through the spec and user manual, it appears that although it can copy its 10K volatile readings memory to internal NVM or external USB, it doesn't appear to be able to do continuous logging to NVM or USB, which seems an odd limitation.
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Offline bingo600

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2013, 09:58:07 am »
Isn't there a fan in this unit , as opposed to the 34401A.

Dave ought to tell if it's as noisy as the 34410 (or just noisy) , before people starts returning their goods  ;)

Seems like old 34401A users liked the silence ....

/Bingo
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2013, 10:05:52 am »
Isn't there a fan in this unit , as opposed to the 34401A.
Dave ought to tell if it's as noisy as the 34410 (or just noisy) , before people starts returning their goods  ;)

I didn't really notice it, which means it can't be too bad...
Will have to pay attention when I next power it up.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2013, 10:07:14 am »
Looking through the spec and user manual, it appears that although it can copy its 10K volatile readings memory to internal NVM or external USB, it doesn't appear to be able to do continuous logging to NVM or USB, which seems an odd limitation.

You could presumably simply manually get a single remote measurement, and do that as fast as possible?
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2013, 10:24:15 am »
Looking through the spec and user manual, it appears that although it can copy its 10K volatile readings memory to internal NVM or external USB, it doesn't appear to be able to do continuous logging to NVM or USB, which seems an odd limitation.

You could presumably simply manually get a single remote measurement, and do that as fast as possible?

It's not the speed, but the ability to do a long log (e.g. battery discharge over several days) standalone without connecting to a PC, and displaying the data so far on its own screen. It appears that this is possible with the trend function, but limited to the 10K sample memory (not looked deep enough to see what happens when it fills - presumably it does a fifo roll).
It would be very useful to be able to either have it write to NV memory during logging, or periodically empty the internal RAM to a CSV file in either internal filesystem or USB. The latter ought to be very easy to implement.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2013, 11:05:05 am »
It's not the speed, but the ability to do a long log (e.g. battery discharge over several days) standalone without connecting to a PC, and displaying the data so far on its own screen.

Usually you don't need that much memory for that, hundred of points are enough, it's a just matter of setting the sample time if you know the estimated total sample time.
If you don't know the total time, then yeah, you need sample compression and/or level based compression or a crap load of memory to brute force it.
 
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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2013, 12:05:35 pm »
Details of how 8846A Trend plot works here 

excerpt from that:
TrendPlot is a form of min/ max recording in which the meter automatically compresses the timescale each time the trend approaches the end of memory. As the meter starts to run out of memory, signal processors quickly go to work. They combine adjacent recording intervals into a new min and max. You still get to see the worst-case measurements and the overall trend. And because you choose when to stop the measurement, you automatically get the best time resolution with the available memory.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 12:17:03 pm by robrenz »
 
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Offline quantumvolt

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2013, 12:22:29 pm »
This Agilent "Interactive Demo" http://wireless.agilent.com/html/dmm/ answers many of the questions here: Truevolt, Display, Trend, Fan, Statistics, Data Logging, Memory etc.

Except from USB/LAN and the primitive Display, this instrument has very little more than the 34401A. But of course - it is more sexy and has graphic display and colors. That makes the measurements much better for many people - including some here ...

Interesting: The RS232 port is gone and the GPIB is optional - I guess they are both outdated. Modernity is USB on the bench (as you see it in many handheld meters) and LAN/WEB when more than 3 feet distance is involved. If one has the cash to buy accessories I guess one can make a data logger / real-time math-statistics processing software with 1000 measurements pr. second until the end of the world ...

For a few dollars and an Arduino - the data stream from the 34401A is also real-time accessible for SD card writing, wireless, USB or Ethernet/Web and online PC processing. First test (I need to buy a DB-9 plug ... - the set-up monitors a voltage and sends the measurements real-time to a USB port or Ethernet shield or SD card writer).

 
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Offline quantumvolt

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2013, 12:35:24 pm »
Details of how 8846A Trend plot works here 

excerpt from that:
TrendPlot is a form of min/ max recording in which the meter automatically compresses the timescale each time the trend approaches the end of memory. As the meter starts to run out of memory, signal processors quickly go to work. They combine adjacent recording intervals into a new min and max. You still get to see the worst-case measurements and the overall trend. And because you choose when to stop the measurement, you automatically get the best time resolution with the available memory.

As far as I can see from http://wireless.agilent.com/html/dmm/ the Agilent feature is just a data plot 'value against time' (last 60 seconds or all data available). The Fluke feature is signal processing and is part of the branch of mathematical statistics called 'Time Series Analysis' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Time_series_analysis.
 
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Offline ftransform

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2013, 03:01:03 pm »
IDK, considering that I can have data being graphed in about 30 seconds on my PC, I just don't see the use.

I'm sure a program like labview or something can do it in real time too, once its setup. I'd rather pirate a program then fork over money to agilent.

I mean seriously, if you have intuilink running, you just move your chair 3 feet to the left, open up excel, click graph. And you have it on a nice big screen with alot of data points that you can easily run statistical analysis on on a good user interface instead of pressing buttons like its star trek. You can run a fourier transform, this that, easily and not have to deal with a 1 by 1 inch display or whatever. 24 inches baby
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 03:05:09 pm by ftransform »
 
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Offline Hypernova

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2013, 04:22:43 pm »
As long as the underlying reference (LM399, LTZ1000) don't improve, they are stuck.
 
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2013, 07:54:03 pm »
Quick resell it on ebay before the masses find out!

Having ordered from a reputable, authorized distributor, I was able to return within 7 days for a full refund, minus the shipping charges.
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Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2013, 08:14:01 pm »
Quick resell it on ebay before the masses find out!

Having ordered from a reputable, authorized distributor, I was able to return within 7 days for a full refund, minus the shipping charges.
Who did you order through?
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2013, 08:27:26 pm »
Agilent has chosen to omit several features in the 34461A that were present in older and competitor's models. I'm curious as to whether they were omitted due to being of limited use or to leave as a carrot on a stick for future higher end models.

The first one is removing the dual measurement display, which given the new higher res color WQVGA display, they could have easily incorporated this feature. Apparently this feature on other models, including the 34450A, permits displaying frequency or DC offset while the main display shows AC V, or to display AC ripple V while the main display shows DC V. I can see use for these features.

The ability to display both V and I at the same time is nice in theory, but not sure if it is practical. First, you need to be able to attach multiple leads to your circuit, and second, most important, chances are that the V and the I would be measured using different ranges. I'm not sure about the Fluke and Keithley, but according to the manual, the 34450A performs the two measurements by switching back and forth. If this involves different ranges, the relays will switch back and forth, which I presume will impact the measurement accuracy and speed. Any experience with doing these measurements in practical use?

The second feature is Capacitance measurement. While it sounds nice in theory, it is of limited value in practical use. First, if you wanted to check if a decoupling cap on a board wasn't faulty, this won't work because you generally have many caps in parallel. If you wanted to verify the quality of a cap, this too wouldn't be of much use because high accuracy of capacitance is less important than quality. For the capacitor ESR, you need to use an LCR meter, which is based on different measurement technology. For checking just capacitance of loose caps lying around on a bench, you might as well use a cheap handheld DMM or a tweezer LCR meter.

So perhaps Agilent used common sense for omitting these features?
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2013, 08:31:33 pm »
Who did you order through?

metrictest.com

If you put in a Web order, you get 10% discount. Sometimes they will match the 10% discount on their quotes. If it is a non-stocked item, like license key options, they sometimes quote with a 12% discount. All the distributors charge sales tax and the usual shipping charges.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2013, 08:53:48 pm »
Who did you order through?

metrictest.com

If you put in a Web order, you get 10% discount. Sometimes they will match the 10% discount on their quotes. If it is a non-stocked item, like license key options, they sometimes quote with a 12% discount. All the distributors charge sales tax and the usual shipping charges.
Ah. Yea not so good a deal for me as that 10% discount probably wouldnt even cover tax and shipping whereas with TestEquipmentDepot there is neither. But, good to know about anyway. Thanks.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2013, 09:25:17 pm »
The 8846A has 25ppm/year specs-- where's the beef?  People buy 6.5 digit DMMs because they want the "state of the art" in accuracy and stability-- this DMM uses the same 40-year old technology, with no effort made to improve it.  I can't figure out what market segment they are shooting for here--  This DMM doesn't even surpass the Rigol 6.5 DMM in specs.  :rant:

You expected it too for the price?

Quote
If they made this DMM with 10ppm/year basic DC accuracy (or better), and/or added self and external artifact calibration (or any other advanced feature) *then* I would stand up and take notice.  {...yawn...}  I'll wait for the review to form my final opinion on this DMM, but as it is so far it is a massive marketing "fail".   :=\

Maybe the market just isn't there for a more expensive 10pmm 6.5 digit meter?
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2013, 09:30:26 pm »
THAT would certainly be a good place for them to start.  There are many new op-amps and chopper amps that, in combination with an LTZ1000A could improve the accuracy of this DMM by an order of magnitude.  Then, there is the well-known technique of artifact calibration.  There have been massive improvements in resistor technology.  As far as I can tell-- NONE of these have been used in this "new" DMM.  {...sigh...}

Two significant claims they make are Noise and injected current and Input bias current.
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« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 09:33:22 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2013, 09:31:34 pm »
The 8846A has 25ppm/year specs-- where's the beef?  People buy 6.5 digit DMMs because they want the "state of the art" in accuracy and stability-- this DMM uses the same 40-year old technology, with no effort made to improve it.  I can't figure out what market segment they are shooting for here--  This DMM doesn't even surpass the Rigol 6.5 DMM in specs.  :rant:
Who actually needs that accuracy? Probably not enough to justify the work producing it. I'd guess that enough accuracy to use as a cal reference for most DMMs & other testgear  is the most that the vast majority of users will ever need.


You expected it too for the price?

Quote
If they made this DMM with 10ppm/year basic DC accuracy (or better), and/or added self and external artifact calibration (or any other advanced feature) *then* I would stand up and take notice.  {...yawn...}  I'll wait for the review to form my final opinion on this DMM, but as it is so far it is a massive marketing "fail".   :=\

Maybe the market just isn't there for a more expensive 10pmm 6.5 digit meter?
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2013, 11:39:26 pm »
If you purely look at accuracy, then the latest significant improvement was probably the HP 3456a, introduced in the early eighties. Its revised 1 year specs are quite similar, if not slightly better, than modern 6.5 digit DMMs. It's also rated for 24h transfer standard accuracy. All improvements since then have been functions, features, connectivity and speed.
 

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #75 on: June 14, 2013, 12:09:13 am »
I'm not new to producing ideas-- The (then HP) people came to me (around 1993), and asked me what I would like in an oscilloscope.  I told them that I would like to see a combined analog and digital scope, with massive amounts of memory.  They thanked me, and sent me a free handheld DMM for my idea.  Then, they went on to make 100's of millions of dollars from my idea (and won industry awards, etc.)-- from what is now called the "MSO with Megazoom Memory".

You don't seriously think that was the result of your suggestion do you?  ;D
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #76 on: June 14, 2013, 03:01:31 am »
The marketing people called me back and told me that they were going to go ahead and implement "my idea"...  Were they lying to me?  Maybe.

They were just being kind to you  ;D
Big companies like HP don't simply take a single idea from a customer and then bang, turn it into a product, especially not an obvious one. The idea was almost certainly already thought of and possibly already developed at the time. The need to synchronise (and combine) logic analysis and scope analysis is not new at all, even I had the idea (and played around with the concept) with my DSO and LA projects back in the late 80's. And I was just a teenager with no industry clue, and pre information revolution. It was blindingly obvious that a DSO could also synchronously store logic data.
It is common for marketing to go and ask such questions after or during the product development to get a feel for if they are on the right track.

See here:
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97a1.pdf
Quote
Mixed-Signal Oscilloscopes
Further investigation into this avoidance of logic analyzers revealed the opportunity for a new kind of test instrument that
would expand the channel count of the oscilloscope without losing its inherent appeal. A series of market research activities
were launched to determine how to fill this gap between oscilloscope and logic analyzer. Clearly, engineers were limited by
the number of channels on their oscilloscopes but they were not always adopting a logic analyzer as the solution. What
eventually emerged is an entirely new product category that combines elements of oscilloscopes and logic analyzers.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 03:13:37 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline billclay

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #77 on: June 14, 2013, 04:20:21 am »
Finaly,Trend plot on a Agilent.  Looks realy good :-+

You can't move off trendplot & histogram screen once you've started it in the Fluke 884X, I think Agilent lets you move off the screen without losing the data.  Also, I found the trendplot and histogram almost useless on the Fuke because of the fixed resolution and auto-scaling of the graphs.  Let's see if the 34461A does it any better.
 
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Offline billclay

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #78 on: June 14, 2013, 04:34:34 am »
Isn't there a fan in this unit , as opposed to the 34401A.

Dave ought to tell if it's as noisy as the 34410 (or just noisy) , before people starts returning their goods  ;)

Seems like old 34401A users liked the silence ....

/Bingo

Yea, I love equipment without fans!  No noise and no ingesting dust!

The 34460A does NOT have a fan, but the 34461A does.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #79 on: June 14, 2013, 04:48:48 am »
The 34460A does NOT have a fan, but the 34461A does.

It's not that loud or distracting, just a low level whir. Less than Rigol 1052E for example.
In a silent room, yes, you can hear it, but if oyu have any other gear it would just get lost in the background.
 
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Offline free_electron

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #80 on: June 14, 2013, 06:22:41 pm »

THAT would certainly be a good place for them to start.  There are many new op-amps and chopper amps that, in combination with an LTZ1000A could improve the accuracy of this DMM by an order of magnitude.  Then, there is the well-known technique of artifact calibration.  There have been massive improvements in resistor technology.  As far as I can tell-- NONE of these have been used in this "new" DMM.  {...sigh...}

have you ripped it apart ? taken a look at the schematics ? if no : shut up.

This machine is a replacement for the 34401. Nothing more. The reason ? because 50% of the parts in the 34401 are now obsolete. The vfd's are gone ( remaining stock depleted ) , half of the chips in the machine are EOL ( the cpu's, gpib  amongst others...  even the rs232 level shifter is eol) and they are close to being out of the ASIC's and the precision hybrid as well.

Expect to see the 34401 being switched to last time buy on the Agilent website very soon...
the key selling point is that it is a 100% compatible 34401a . the intended audience is people that have automated setups running and need drop-in replacement without code changes.

if you want a machine with better specs : take a look at their other machines like the 34411 or the 3458 ...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 06:25:50 pm by free_electron »
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #81 on: June 14, 2013, 07:37:16 pm »

THAT would certainly be a good place for them to start.  There are many new op-amps and chopper amps that, in combination with an LTZ1000A could improve the accuracy of this DMM by an order of magnitude.  Then, there is the well-known technique of artifact calibration.  There have been massive improvements in resistor technology.  As far as I can tell-- NONE of these have been used in this "new" DMM.  {...sigh...}

This machine is a replacement for the 34401. Nothing more.
I don't think I've ever seen a datasheet that puts so much emphasis on a product being the same as the previous version... surprised they didn't call it the 34401B!
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Offline free_electron

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #82 on: June 14, 2013, 08:35:38 pm »
B versions are typically small changes , little improvement here and there. Replacing of one or two parts that are obsolete. the 60 is a completely new design. the display and user interface is completely different so it warrants a complete new number.

But you are right. the key selling point is : drop in replacement for 34401.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #83 on: June 14, 2013, 08:48:04 pm »
Yes, the older sales brochures pushed the 34410a to replace the 01a but there are enough known incompatibilities that needed software rewrites that likely were significant enough to require a true drop in replacement be made; add graphical capabilities too as all their bench DMMs lack it [ graphics is pushed heavily in their sales brochures].

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-4038EN.pdf


This machine is a replacement for the 34401. Nothing more.

I don't think I've ever seen a datasheet that puts so much emphasis on a product being the same as the previous version... surprised they didn't call it the 34401B!
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #84 on: June 14, 2013, 10:10:32 pm »
I like  idea of instrument with large display, similar to other products like SMU B2900A or generators 33500B.
For such a price range is seems to be realy good replacement for 34401.
Do not continue with trolling about precission of the instrument, it is entry level bench top DMM.
Manufacturer cannot "kill" their other product with 1k USD multimeter with high-ends like 3458 (8k USD) or K2002 (6k USD)
I agree that both multimeters are quite old - but there is still demand from customers and these customers are more traditional.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #85 on: June 15, 2013, 03:01:25 am »
I think that Agilent could have done better-- they could not only have made a "replacement" for the 34401A, but made a code-compatible version that is far more accurate than the 34401A, and at the same price point (and nearly at the same cost)

It is marketing that decides what features to put into each instrument for each price level.

It is obvious on this model that there are things they could have done to make the instrument significantly better, but they wanted to save those features for future higher end models, such as replacements for the 34410A and 34411A.

From reading the datasheets, manuals, and viewing the videos, it is clear that they wanted to defend their commitment to delivering the 34401A to their volume customers. If they had a "functionally" new instrument, those customers would be pissed off when they EOL the 34401A. For some people, better specs does not mean a better solution if they need to retrain their employees or re-write their test software.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #86 on: June 15, 2013, 04:12:52 am »
@diligentminds. Sorry i came over rude. But i took your post as 'instrument bashing without backup'.
The new machine does not aspire to be better than a 34401. Its goal is to be a 100% replacement for the aging 34401. Like i said the 34401 will disappear soon as they are running out of parts for it. Yet industry demands it. There are rpoblems plonking in a 34410 or 34411 instead of a 34401 as there are software incompatibilities ( sending 10nplc to a34410 is different dan 10nplc to a 34401. What is slow 61/2 on the 34401 is fast 61/2 on the 410... This gives problems. Also some of the other new machines have no more gpib. The new 6x has gpib (albeit an option).

It is purely designed as 100% code and function replacement.
So they are not going to put in ltz references as it is not needed. Nor does it need to ne more accurate than the 34401. As they will not alter the program code driving the testsetup the extra precision would be lost anyway. If the code is written to extract 51/2 digit in fast mode. It does no good to plonk in a machine that can doe 71/2 digit. The code only extracts 51/2 . So they dont want to pay for functionality that will not be accessed. Like i said: goal no1 of the machine is 100% compatibility. Sure they threw in some extra stuff that did not add to the bomcost. But adding an ltz style reference would have mandated higher cost. The twrget price was 34401 territory.

If you want better performance , faster reading, better tolerance they got other machines.

And by the way , the service manul IS up for the machine. No schematics though but there are some color pictures of the inside , some repair , replace tips and an explanation of how it does certain things.

I have it on good authority that we will see a replacement for the 3458 as well....
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 04:16:36 am by free_electron »
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Offline plesa

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #87 on: June 15, 2013, 08:41:19 am »
I have it on good authority that we will see a replacement for the 3458 as well....

Can you share rough timeline for this replacement? Month(s), year(s)?
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #88 on: June 15, 2013, 12:16:19 pm »
RS (UK) are showing 75  34461A's in stock at GBP705.
No 34460a but they are listing the LAN upgrade for it! (looks like this is a license job)

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #89 on: June 15, 2013, 01:41:49 pm »
With all the talk of compatibility with the 34401 I'm surprised there isn't an RS232 option - wouldn't exactly have been hard. Maybe even by plugging an FTDI cable into the USB host port - FTDI have WINCE drivers so wouldn't be much effort to support it.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #90 on: June 17, 2013, 04:47:45 pm »
Farnell now have a couple of 34460A's


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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #91 on: June 18, 2013, 12:40:19 pm »
With all the talk of compatibility with the 34401 I'm surprised there isn't an RS232 option.

..well it appears that there is,all they need to do is add software support for it...
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #92 on: June 18, 2013, 03:29:08 pm »
I did add the new Agilent to my DCV chart for my own gear to see how it compares in the 1 year specs.
I also added the Keithley 2002 8.5 Digit DMM, because I was surprised to see that it is not that much better then the 6.5 Digit meters shown.

edit: correction in chart
edit: added DCI chart
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 07:05:46 am by quarks »
 
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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #93 on: June 18, 2013, 04:22:51 pm »
That Keithley line looks too erratic,  I would check your cell formulas and spec interpretation ;D
 
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #94 on: June 18, 2013, 05:48:31 pm »
here is the chart with Fluke 8508A
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 06:16:13 pm by quarks »
 
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2013, 06:03:45 pm »
That Keithley line looks too erratic,  I would check your cell formulas and spec interpretation ;D

I checked the formulas and had a mix of 1 + 10 PLC accurracy numbers, but there is not much difference (now with 10PLC data only), see new Chart in original post plus specs here
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 06:30:40 pm by quarks »
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #96 on: June 18, 2013, 07:22:19 pm »
My appologies, :-[ it is that bad over 20V :-//
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #97 on: June 18, 2013, 08:06:14 pm »
With all the talk of compatibility with the 34401 I'm surprised there isn't an RS232 option.

..well it appears that there is,all they need to do is add software support for it...
..but at the moment it's a debug port.....
Code: [Select]
U-Boot 2010.03 (Oct 09 2012 - 12:48:30)Agilent P510

CPU:   SPEAr320
DRAM:  128 MiB
Unknown id: 0xffffff. Using ST_M23P40
Flash: 64 KiB
NAND:  INTERNAL ECC 128 MiB
In:    serial
Out:   serial
Err:   serial
SerNum:MY99999999
Chip:  AA Board Rev: 4
init  RTC: 2013-06-18 20:02:38.47
Net:   No ethernet found.
splash RTC: 2013-06-18 20:02:39.51
Press space to stop autoboot:  0

NAND read: device 0 offset 0x320000, size 0x10000
 65536 bytes read: OK
## Booting kernel from Legacy Image at 00600000 ...
   Image Name:   PBOOT
   Created:      2012-05-22  16:06:43 UTC
   Image Type:   ARM Linux Kernel Image (gzip compressed)
   Data Size:    38780 Bytes = 37.9 KiB
   Load Address: 00000000
   Entry Point:  00000000
   Uncompressing Kernel Image ... OK

Starting kernel ...


Debug serial initialized ........OK
No RTC on 320

Microsoft Windows CE Bootloader Common Library Version 1.4 Built May 22 2012 09:
09:57
Microsoft Windows CE 6.0 Ethernet Bootloader for the Agilent P500 board
Adaptation performed by Agilent Technologies (c) 2008

Reading NAND configuration

System ready!
Preparing for download...
No RTC on 320
 Loading image 1 from memory at 0xD0620000
O
BL_IMAGE_TYPE_BIN

X
XXOXOOOXOXOOOOOOOXOXOOOOOOOXOOOXOOOOXXXOOOOOOOOOXOOOXOXXOOXXOOOXOXXOXOOXXOOOOOOX
OOOXOOOXXOXOOOXOOXOOXXOOOXOOOOOXOOXOOOXOXOXXOXXXOOOXOOOOXXOOOOXOOOOXOXOXOOOOOOXO
OOXOOXOOOOOXXOOOOOXOXOOOOOOOOOOOXOXOOOOOOOXOXXOOOOOOOXOOOOXOXOOOXOOOXXXXXOXXOOXO
OXOXXXXOOOOX
OOOOOXXXXXOOOXOXOOOOXOOOOXOOOXOOXOOXOOOXOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrom_offset
=0x0.
XXImageStart = 0x80361000, ImageLength = 0x14FD1FC, LaunchAddr = 0x80362000

Completed file(s):
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[0]: Address=0x80361000  Length=0x14FD1FC  Name="" Target=RAM
 Loading image 1 succeeded.
ROMHDR at Address 80361044h
Preparing launch...
No RTC on 320
Launching windows CE image by jumping at address 0x  362000

Windows CE Kernel for ARM (Thumb Enabled) Built on May  7 2012 at 12:47:43
Setting up for a Cold Reboot
Done Setting up for a Cold Reboot
Windows CE Firmware Init
BSP 1.0.0 for the SPEARHEAD600AB board (built Mar 14 2013)
Adaptation performed by ADENEO (c) 2005
+OALIntrInit
-OALIntrInit(rc = 1)
Initialize driver globals Zeros area...
pDrvGlobalArea 0xa0060000  size 0x800 (0xa0060800 -0xa0060000)
Initialize driver globals Zeros area...done
 OALKitlStart
Firmware Init Done.
OALIoctlHalEnterI2cCriticalSection init i2c cs
ERROR: C:\WINCE600\PLATFORM\COMMON\SRC\SOC\STM\SPEARHEAD600\DRIVERS\GPIO\.\sh600
_gpio_hw.cpp line 170: GPB driver, RegQueryDword('ISTPriority') failed, status:2

ERROR: C:\WINCE600\PLATFORM\COMMON\SRC\SOC\STM\SPEARHEAD600\DRIVERS\NandFlash\.\
sh600_NandFlash.c line 57: ConfigTimming - Unable to open device registry entry
ERROR: C:\WINCE600\PLATFORM\COMMON\SRC\SOC\STM\COMMON\DRIVERS\NandFlash\.\stm_Na
ndFlash.c line 1039: LLD_GetInfo - Unable to open device registry entry
++SER_Init: context Drivers\Active\10
SER_Init, dwIndex:2
GPIO_Select0 Register 0xB300_0024: 0x80000000
Control Register 0xB300_0010 : 0x00000040
RAS Select Register 0xB300_000C: 0xffffacf4
CORE_CLK_CFG 0xB300_0024: 0x80000000
SER2 got sysintr:0x00000013
SER2 Serial Port, new baud rate:0x1c200  (UARTCLK:83250000 IBRD:0x2d FBRD:0xa)
++SER_Init: context Drivers\Active\11
SER_Init, dwIndex:3
GPIO_Select0 Register 0xB300_0024: 0x80000000
Control Register 0xB300_0010 : 0x00000040
RAS Select Register 0xB300_000C: 0xffffacf4
CORE_CLK_CFG 0xB300_0024: 0x80000000
+OALIntrRequestSysIntr IRQ (1) already used by SYSINTR (19)
SER3 got sysintr:0x00000014
SER3 Serial Port, new baud rate:0x1c200  (UARTCLK:83250000 IBRD:0x2d FBRD:0xa)
OHCI\system.c, GCFG_USBH1_SW_RST
OHCI\system.c, GCFG_USBH2_SW_RST
-EDeviceLoadEeprom 00:30:D3:24:69:A4
Phy found addr 7 (ticks=3435)
WaitForLink Start (ticks=3436)
No Link (ticks=4439)
<--EDeviceInitialize

GMAC DMA status register = 0x0
Resetting the USB-device silicon
sh600_pdd, IOCTL_BUS_POSTINIT
ERROR: C:\WINCE600\3RDPARTY\Agilent\HPP\Common\Drivers\stm320_UsbFnBusDriver\.\u
fnbus.cpp line 1137: failed opening \Agilent Flash\SPD\usbOverride
                                                                  stm320_UsbFnBu
sDriver, set IST priority 96

With some debug commands....
Code: [Select]
?       - alias for 'help'
adc     - performs A/D conversion on channel
base    - print or set address offset
bdinfo  - print Board Info structure
bdt     - enables or disables output pins on UART1
boot    - boot default, i.e., run 'bootcmd'
bootd   - boot default, i.e., run 'bootcmd'
bootm   - boot application image from memory
bootp   - boot image via network using BOOTP/TFTP protocol
cdp     - Perform CDP network configuration
cmp     - memory compare
coninfo - print console devices and information
cp      - memory copy
crc32   - checksum calculation
dcache  - enable or disable data cache
dhcp    - boot image via network using DHCP/TFTP protocol
echo    - echo args to console
editenv - edit environment variable
erase   - erase FLASH memory
expi    - program EXPI Clock
factory - factory - program factory data into NAND memory

fatinfo - print information about filesystem
fatload - load binary file from a dos filesystem
fatls   - list files in a directory (default /)
flinfo  - print FLASH memory information
fpga    - loadable FPGA image support
fsinfo  - print information about filesystems
fsload  - load binary file from a filesystem image
go      - start application at address 'addr'
help    - print command description/usage
hwreset - Perform HW RESET of the CPU
icache  - enable or disable instruction cache
iminfo  - print header information for application image
imls    - imls - list all images found in flash

imxtract- extract a part of a multi-image
itest   - return true/false on integer compare
loadb   - load binary file over serial line (kermit mode)
loads   - load S-Record file over serial line
loady   - load binary file over serial line (ymodem mode)
loop    - infinite loop on address range
ls      - list files in a directory (default /)
md      - memory display
mm      - memory modify (auto-incrementing address)
mtest   - simple RAM read/write test
mw      - memory write (fill)
nand    - NAND sub-system
nboot   - boot from NAND device
nfs     - boot image via network using NFS protocol
nm      - memory modify (constant address)
ping    - send ICMP ECHO_REQUEST to network host
printenv- print environment variables
protect - enable or disable FLASH write protection
rarpboot- boot image via network using RARP/TFTP protocol
reset   - Perform RESET of the CPU
rtc     - print time from RTC
run     - run commands in an environment variable
saveenv - save environment variables to persistent storage
saves   - save S-Record file over serial line
setenv  - set environment variables
sleep   - delay execution for some time
source  - run script from memory
splash  - load splash image on display
tftpboot- boot image via network using TFTP protocol
usb     - USB sub-system
usbboot - boot from USB device
version - print monitor version
xload   - xload - program xloader image into NAND from memory


« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 08:36:08 pm by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline Rufus

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #98 on: June 18, 2013, 08:16:01 pm »
Quote from: mikeselectricstuff link=topic=17741.msg248639#msg248639
bdt     - enables or disables output pins on UART1 so Bryan D Thompson can program the 8051

Lol - has it got an 8051 in there? Maybe in the FPGA?
 

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #99 on: June 18, 2013, 08:34:48 pm »
There's an LPC900 on the front panel board.
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Offline plesa

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #100 on: June 18, 2013, 08:43:01 pm »
I checked similar WinCE based generator (33500B) and there is no such a port inside.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 08:55:18 pm by plesa »
 
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Offline quantumvolt

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #101 on: June 19, 2013, 12:34:36 am »
That Keithley line looks too erratic,  I would check your cell formulas and spec interpretation ;D

I checked the formulas and had a mix of 1 + 10 PLC accurracy numbers, but there is not much difference (now with 10PLC data only), see new Chart in original post plus specs here

Very interesting and informative plot. A simple and intuitively correct behavior of a plot of  "accuracy" vs. voltage (range).

As one poster said the higher ranges are determined by the quality of resistor arrays for voltage dividers. At the lower end it is noise and the quality of the DC amplifiers that rules. Somewhere in between the AD converter is "naked" and the instrument is at it's best. Also it is clear for everyone to see why it is better to measure near full scale.

An interesting thing is that better millivolt amplifiers can be bought or built, and the same goes for resistor dividers. But the inherent quality of the AD converter and it's minimum front end determines the instrument's final quality and can not be changed. Also the huge drop in one of the curves represents as said by another poster only a precision increase from around 0.005% to 0.001% and shows up in the naked AD converter range. Shows that the converter is very good but the front amplifier for lower ranges and the dividers for higher ranges are so so.

One can also compare this graph to the "history" of voltage references from 1+ Volt cells to today's 10 Volt arrays. This is the span where the AD converter and it's reference voltage operates and where the instrument's are at their best (I include lower voltages even in modern equipment because there is a lot of portable battery powered calibration / measurement stuff that references much less than 10 volt).

Very nice graph.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 12:39:45 am by quantumvolt »
 
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #102 on: June 19, 2013, 05:54:29 am »

Very interesting and informative plot. A simple and intuitively correct behavior of a plot of  "accuracy" vs. voltage (range).
...
Very nice graph.

The credits for that go to robrenz. He was the first I saw this kind of chart from!!! I only adopted it and used it since then for almost all gear I own and for most I liked and tried to buy. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 06:08:27 am by quarks »
 
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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #103 on: June 19, 2013, 02:12:39 pm »
IMO the only way to objectively compare specs. Banner specs and huge +LSD counts are quickly equalized between instruments using this method. It is a little tedious getting all the formulas correct for each range of each instrument for all measurement types. You have to make sure you have test values that occur on the range changes/maximum reading for each range for all the instruments compared.
 
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #104 on: June 19, 2013, 05:04:02 pm »
With all the talk of compatibility with the 34401 I'm surprised there isn't an RS232 option.

..well it appears that there is,all they need to do is add software support for it...
..but at the moment it's a debug port.....

Wow! I'm amazed that they would expose all these goodies!

On my projects I'm always required to turn off all debug info in the production build. Perhaps they are shipping the instruments with beta firmware.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2013, 05:34:33 pm »
hello. After viewing  teardown tuesday ihave some questions:

1.Is it normal that most vias on the backsdie of the PCB are filed wih solder?

This dual slope  converter.
 Why do you use an opamp to charge the capacitor? All you do is just charging a cap and measuring the time. You dont need an  opamp for it.  And is the charging curve      not exponential ( DaveCad showed a linear increasing of voltage).
 

Offline adh

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #106 on: June 20, 2013, 01:36:43 am »
The ability to display both V and I at the same time is nice in theory, but not sure if it is practical. First, you need to be able to attach multiple leads to your circuit, and second, most important, chances are that the V and the I would be measured using different ranges. I'm not sure about the Fluke and Keithley, but according to the manual, the 34450A performs the two measurements by switching back and forth. If this involves different ranges, the relays will switch back and forth, which I presume will impact the measurement accuracy and speed. Any experience with doing these measurements in practical use?

On most of bench meters (and probably even on reasonable handheld ones) there is no need to switch any physical switch when going between current and voltage measurements. On 34401 going between current (except 3A, because 3A range relay also switches in current source for R measurements) and voltage ranges involves switching two MOS switches in the input switching hybrid (U101 in service manual). And actually the thing by default does moral equivalent of switching ranges between each sample - "autozero", which involves measuring voltage on input shorted by 100k resistor to ground.

It is truly surprising how simple the 34401A's input circuitry is  (essentially whole real input range switching is on sheet 2 of schematics). You essentially get two ranges each for I (5R an 0R01 shunts) and U (small voltages going through few series high-value protection resistors and large voltages going through 9M9:0M1 divider, with both connected at once for "low" impedance mode) and any other ranges are done by adjusting gain of input amplifier after that (U106 and discrete JFET pair U104, with another pins of U101 used for changing divider ratio in its feedback network). Notice that you only have 3 relevant (ie. ignoring K101) relays in this whole mechanism. But because K102 serves dual purpose of switching current ranges and measurement current source for R ranges it is not exactly practical to measure U and I at once, but only slight redesign (probably without any additional components) will enable that, and without any relay clicking between samples.

On the other hand, I would like to not only be measuring U and I at once but also RMS power, which seems to not be practical by switching inputs of relatively slow ADC.
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #107 on: June 20, 2013, 01:47:08 am »
Why do you use an opamp to charge the capacitor? All you do is just charging a cap and measuring the time. You dont need an  opamp for it.  And is the charging curve      not exponential ( DaveCad showed a linear increasing of voltage).

You need an opamp to created the virtual ground at the input and steer all the (constant) current through the capacitor.
It is linear because it's a constant current.
 
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Offline AlfBaz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #108 on: June 20, 2013, 12:46:09 pm »
This dual slope  converter.
 Why do you use an opamp to charge the capacitor? All you do is just charging a cap and measuring the time. You dont need an  opamp for it.  And is the charging curve      not exponential ( DaveCad showed a linear increasing of voltage).
It's why they call this circuit an integrating op amp. It performs the mathematical integral of the applied voltage over the time. If it wasn't linear (for a fixed dc input) then it wouldn't be called an integrator
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #109 on: June 20, 2013, 05:43:53 pm »
Man, after watching Daves tear down and review of this unit Im kinda glad I didnt get it. That boot time (or anything other than instant on) would annoy the heck out of me! That takes WAY too long. When I pull out or power up my meter I want instant access to take my measurements and Im out. That Windows CE boot sucks.
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Offline AlfBaz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #110 on: June 20, 2013, 06:02:04 pm »
Presumably you want to pull out the 6.5 digit meter for some accuracy. You should be waiting an for an hour for it to warm up. So what's the big deal?
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #111 on: June 20, 2013, 06:04:09 pm »
Presumably you want to pull out the 6.5 digit meter for some accuracy. You should be waiting an for an hour for it to warm up. So what's the big deal?
lol I guess we all look at thing differently. I would use it as my daily/normal bench meter but not necessarily leave it on all day long and I think in this day and age with all that technology crammed in there we shouldnt have to wait at all for the thing to boot up.
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Offline c4757p

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #112 on: June 20, 2013, 06:06:53 pm »
Even an accurate, expensive meter like that can (or, should be able to) serve well as a general-purpose meter in addition. Sure, it'll be warming up for a while if I need that much accuracy, but if I don't, I still want to be able to use it without waiting for that damn startup sequence.
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Offline grego

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #113 on: June 20, 2013, 06:35:21 pm »
Even an accurate, expensive meter like that can (or, should be able to) serve well as a general-purpose meter in addition. Sure, it'll be warming up for a while if I need that much accuracy, but if I don't, I still want to be able to use it without waiting for that damn startup sequence.

Yeah but remember Dave specifically said his had pre-release firmware on it with extra debugging and that Agilent told him it would take longer than normal to boot.
 
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Offline c4757p

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #114 on: June 20, 2013, 06:38:40 pm »
Remember? I missed that entirely!  :) Thanks.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #115 on: June 20, 2013, 06:45:48 pm »
Even an accurate, expensive meter like that can (or, should be able to) serve well as a general-purpose meter in addition. Sure, it'll be warming up for a while if I need that much accuracy, but if I don't, I still want to be able to use it without waiting for that damn startup sequence.

Yeah but remember Dave specifically said his had pre-release firmware on it with extra debugging and that Agilent told him it would take longer than normal to boot.
I did catch that in the video review, however being that it does run CE, Im sure the boot up is still long, just maybe not AS long.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #116 on: June 20, 2013, 07:39:27 pm »
Even an accurate, expensive meter like that can (or, should be able to) serve well as a general-purpose meter in addition. Sure, it'll be warming up for a while if I need that much accuracy, but if I don't, I still want to be able to use it without waiting for that damn startup sequence.

Yeah but remember Dave specifically said his had pre-release firmware on it with extra debugging and that Agilent told him it would take longer than normal to boot.
The current production firmware takes 50 seconds to boot. Way too long.

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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #117 on: June 20, 2013, 07:44:47 pm »
8846A running Linux takes 14 seconds
 
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Offline grego

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #118 on: June 20, 2013, 08:05:04 pm »
Even an accurate, expensive meter like that can (or, should be able to) serve well as a general-purpose meter in addition. Sure, it'll be warming up for a while if I need that much accuracy, but if I don't, I still want to be able to use it without waiting for that damn startup sequence.

Yeah but remember Dave specifically said his had pre-release firmware on it with extra debugging and that Agilent told him it would take longer than normal to boot.
The current production firmware takes 50 seconds to boot. Way too long.

If 50 seconds is what they consider "faster" than the debug software then yeah - that's a long-ass time for a DMM to start up.  Gotta love WindowsCE.
 
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Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #119 on: June 20, 2013, 08:43:49 pm »
Man, after watching Daves tear down and review of this unit Im kinda glad I didnt get it. That boot time (or anything other than instant on) would annoy the heck out of me! That takes WAY too long. When I pull out or power up my meter I want instant access to take my measurements and Im out. That Windows CE boot sucks.

A lot of manufacturers choose WinCE for political reasons-- rather than technical ones.  If you are ever working on a project that requires a GUI, file-system, and Ethernet connectivity, please don't use WinCE (unless you are forced to).  There are many paths that lead to the same destination, but some of those paths are the dumbest way to go.  For the executives reading the Microsoft sales brochures, WinCE sounds like a dream-- [paraphrasing]: "Practically everything is already done for you-- just install it, and wham!  Now you can hire Windows programmers that know absolutely nothing about embedded systems programming, and have your product ready in half the time!"  The reality is that no, you still have to hire embedded systems programmers that know what the hell they are doing, and because you have now added many layers of over-bloated code, the memory size and boot-times are going to be much bigger, and the firmware project is going to take 3-5 times as long (in my experience-- I've only worked on 5 projects involving WinCE before I gave up on it forever).

PLEASE-- FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS DESIGN EMBEDDED SYSTEMS WITH WINDOWS !!!

And Agilent (I know you are reading this thread)-- you should be ashamed.
All we can do is try and vote with our dollars. Dont buy devices running Windows CE if you dont want them on the market anymore.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #120 on: June 20, 2013, 08:46:51 pm »
Even an accurate, expensive meter like that can (or, should be able to) serve well as a general-purpose meter in addition. Sure, it'll be warming up for a while if I need that much accuracy, but if I don't, I still want to be able to use it without waiting for that damn startup sequence.

Yeah but remember Dave specifically said his had pre-release firmware on it with extra debugging and that Agilent told him it would take longer than normal to boot.
The current production firmware takes 50 seconds to boot. Way too long.

If 50 seconds is what they consider "faster" than the debug software then yeah - that's a long-ass time for a DMM to start up.  Gotta love WindowsCE.
I don't think the production SW is much, if any different to what Dave has - most of the boot-up message build dates are the same. Hopefully this means an update is coming to improve it. Most of the time is before the main DMM app starts & relays start clicking etc.
I suspect they may need to  go back to MS to address some of the time-consuming stuff - I suspect a lot of it is stuff like inappropriate timeouts waiting for non-existent interfaces and unnecessary selftests.
Or they could change the way that powerdown works to go into a standby state - as it has a soft power switch this ought to be possible. Not ideal as you'd still have the long startup from plug-in, but should  be a much faster restart from the front panel, which would be better than nothing. 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #121 on: June 20, 2013, 08:52:49 pm »
The problem is that Agilent will now have a big investment in their own developments under CE - for example all the remote LXI stuff, calibration & production test, so it's not just the OS, at least not now.
I'm sure they would have looked long & hard at the options, and that there were good reasons to move away from Vxworks (used on 5/6/7000).
An obvious reason for choosing CE over Linux is support from the manufacturer, althoigh Agilent are big enough that they could have set up an internal Penguin department.
 
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Offline grenert

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #122 on: June 20, 2013, 08:53:43 pm »
Or they could change the way that powerdown works to go into a standby state - as it has a soft power switch this ought to be possible. Not ideal as you'd still have the long startup from plug-in, but should  be a much faster restart from the front panel, which would be better than nothing.
This is what the Fluke 8846A does.  Boot from plug-in is 14 sec as explained by robrenz above, but subsequent turn-on from the front panel is pretty much instant.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #123 on: June 20, 2013, 08:56:54 pm »
Ahh.. the simple life. My Keithley 196 boots in less than 3 seconds.   :-DD
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #124 on: June 20, 2013, 10:08:03 pm »
WinCE wasn't that great on a phone platform either.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #125 on: June 20, 2013, 10:11:41 pm »
WinCE wasn't that great on a phone platform either.
Sure as heck was not!
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #126 on: June 20, 2013, 11:22:09 pm »
Even an accurate, expensive meter like that can (or, should be able to) serve well as a general-purpose meter in addition. Sure, it'll be warming up for a while if I need that much accuracy, but if I don't, I still want to be able to use it without waiting for that damn startup sequence.

Then simple, don't by a feature laden meter with a complex OS for on/off intermittent use. Use the right tool for the job.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #127 on: June 21, 2013, 02:10:51 am »
WinCE wasn't that great on a phone platform either.
Sure as heck was not!

I stand corrected.  Well, I guess then that WinCE is not good for anything...(then)...

So wrong. It's good at pissing people off. (though, not a very good pro)

On another note, I wonder if we'll see more siba fuses in NA with this.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #128 on: June 21, 2013, 09:10:16 am »
it's a good meter for the price, but my priority now is to get a waveform gen....
 

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #129 on: June 21, 2013, 04:34:54 pm »
it's a good meter for the price, but my priority now is to get a waveform gen....
I recently picked up an Agilent 33220A Arb Gen and its been awesome! You can sometimes find them in good to perfect condition on eBay for around $800-900
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #130 on: June 21, 2013, 06:23:35 pm »
A lot of manufacturers choose WinCE for political reasons-- rather than technical ones.  If you are ever working on a project that requires a GUI, file-system, and Ethernet connectivity, please don't use WinCE (unless you are forced to).  There are many paths that lead to the same destination, but some of those paths are the dumbest way to go.  For the executives reading the Microsoft sales brochures, WinCE sounds like a dream-- [paraphrasing]: "Practically everything is already done for you-- just install it, and wham!  Now you can hire Windows programmers that know absolutely nothing about embedded systems programming, and have your product ready in half the time!"  The reality is that no, you still have to hire embedded systems programmers that know what the hell they are doing, and because you have now added many layers of over-bloated code, the memory size and boot-times are going to be much bigger, and the firmware project is going to take 3-5 times as long (in my experience-- I've only worked on 5 projects involving WinCE before I gave up on it forever).

PLEASE-- FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS DESIGN EMBEDDED SYSTEMS WITH WINDOWS !!!

And Agilent (I know you are reading this thread)-- you should be ashamed.

QUIT BASHING WINCE!!! We all hate Microsoft, but give some credit where credit is due!

Decisions for choosing an OS for a product is not made on a whim, particularly if it impacts a good portion of the products developed and supported by a company for a period of 10 to 20 years. Agilent most likely made the decision for their future instruments back around 2004 or 2005. Back then, before Android, iPad, iPhone, and smartphones, the choices were much different than they are today. Blackberrys had 2 line LCD screens, the Palm Pilot had a green backlit monochrome screen, the iPod had a white monochrome screen with the click wheel, and Microsoft had WinCE, which had full color graphic touchscreen support, Ethernet, WiFi, Bluetooth, USB, etc. The first smartphones and tablets (PDAs) ran WinCE. The first competitor to WinCE based smartphones was the Palm Treo, which became quite popular, but it was Palm proprietary, had no support for Ethernet or WIFI, and very limited 3rd party app support.

Where was embedded Linux back then? Back then, embedded Linux distros were basically ports from desktop distros, with limited peripheral support, very limited graphics support, poor GUI, no low power management, very limited non-PC hardware support, etc. If you wanted a BSP, and perhaps some form of support, your only options were to go with MontaVista, LynuxWorks, or TimeSys, which were exorbitantly expensive. The development tools were around $80k USD per seat, with licensing easily exceeding $120k for the OS and a few options like video display, USB, and Ethernet. Also the licensing model was tied to end product model number and single binary. If you developed a whole product family, then you would multiply the licensing cost by the number of products, plus you had a 20% annual maintenance fee. So for Agilent to choose Linux back than, they would have to shell out several $M easily on just the OS plus the 20% maintenance for the next 10 or more years.

That would have been half the problem, but GUI for Linux was simply not a priority. Most Linux hackers back then did their entire development using a text only screen. Yes, they booted their workstation to Linux console and would never run a GUI desktop. GUIs were for sissies, or lamers as some of my coworkers would call them. Real programmers used vi and make files, not IDEs. The Linux GUIs back then were all based on X-Windows, which worked very well for remote logins, but was very inefficient for an embedded type GUI, plus the fonts and dialog boxes were usually misaligned, and no touchscreen support.

Embedded Linux was used very successfully in stuff like network equipment, routers, gateways, servers, NAS, etc. These devices needed the network support and file system of a full fledged OS, but didn’t care for a GUI. Most of these devices would have a few push buttons and 2 or 4 line LCD screens on the front panel for displaying status.

By contrast, WinCE Platform Builder was ~$1k USD, and that included the BSP and all the tools needed for development. The licensing model was based on stickers that needed to be purchased for each shipped unit and ranged between $10 to $30 each in low volumes with volume discounts. Microsoft offered support for over 30 different processors, plus all of the major vendors back then had a WinCE BSP to support the specific peripherals for their SoC MCUs. For 3rd party support, there was Adeneo and BSquare, which developed BSPs for many of the MCU vendors as well as offered design services. Remote debugging WinCE on the device was over Ethernet and worked just like debugging any application in Visual Studio. Pressing F5 would build your WinCE app, download it to your device, and start execution. You could step through code and set breakpoints, and view variables and stack just as easily as debugging any desktop application. By contrast, on Linux you would run make files in the console, then use a $20k JTag pod to download your application, and then run console GDB, and have fun decoding hex addresses and values. Take your pick.

As for WinCE taking a long time to boot – Toradex have been able to offer an ARM SOM running WinCE 7 that boots in less than 500ms. It does a full cold boot to GUI in about the time it takes to press the power switch. I have yet to see an embedded Linux board boots that fast.

That was then. Today, Microsoft is not the same company it once was, and the new management geniuses are hard at work to make sure it will never be. Today most of the major ARM MCU vendors provide free of charge embedded Linux BSPs with full support for all of their onchip peripherals. There is Android and QT for GUI development. You still have to buy the development tools, but the competition has driven the prices down to more justifiable levels.

Where are the Microsoft programmers today that developed WinCE? They quit in frustration and went to work for Google to develop Android.

While I agree that the days for Microsoft are numbered (with the help of their management), I would not blame Agilent, or anyone else, for choosing to use WinCE a few years back because, quite frankly, it was the best option available at that time for an embedded OS with a nice GUI.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #131 on: June 21, 2013, 11:35:16 pm »
Wow!  I sense a "Microsoft Love Fest" going on here...

... it is far better (cheaper, and more efficient with both firmware and hardware) to use an RTOS, together with GUI, file-system, and networking libraries.  After completing several WinCE, embedded Linux, and Embedded WinXP projects, I can attest to this fact.  A full-blown general purpose O/S adds layers and layers of unnecessary complexity, and drives the end-unit price up (with royalty fees in some cases, and greater firmware cost in others)-- not to mention a greater number of software bugs that will probably never be fixed on an embedded device.

.. There is simply no reason at all to put a full-blown general purpose O/S in any instrument.  That's my learned opinion, and I am not going to change my mind about that.

Oh-- If I want to "bash" some company on this forum for the ridiculous engineering choices they made, then I should be able to do it-- and you should be able to express your opinion as well-- the readers and participants of this forum are intelligent and smart enough to make up their own minds, and they don't need *you* to be their "information nanny".  OK?

I referred to Microsoft in a past tense -- their days of inspiration are long gone. Maybe they have a future with their game consoles. Personally I believe that Linux, both desktop and embedded is the future, but there's still work to be done.

I'm impressed with your experience using WinCE, Windows Embedded, and embedded Linux. Unfortunately, things are a bit different if you develop products with multiple complex interfaces and GUI using an RTOS. Unless one of the free or open source versions fits your application perfectly, using an RTOS can be very expensive, particularly with the licensing. And very often you are on your own to support the MCU of your own choice and the onchip peripherals. For a product like the 34461A, you could be talking about $30k for the base RTOS + $20k for the TCP/IP v4 stack + $15k for web server + $20k for USB host + $20k for USB device + $15k for FAT16/32 file system, and $50k for GUI. Some vendors charge royalties, others base the prices by the number of units you predict you'll sell up front. Now multiply by the number of end models you have and add 20% annual maintenance. On top of that investment, you still need to develop all of the drivers. That WinCE looks real cheap now for what you get out of the box.

I'm not sure why you would call WinCE a full blown general purpose OS. Yes it can be built as such, but you have full control over which drivers and components are added to the BSP as well as which applications are in the binary. I don't think one would be able to install and run solitaire on the 34461A.

Second, the hassles you had experienced with WinCE and Windows Embedded -- I presume you had done .NET application programming. Whoever came up with the brilliant idea of running managed code on an embedded device, is beyond me. The last thing you'd want a scope to do when you press the trigger button is to start garbage collection.

As for the "information nanny" -- not the case. Anyone can say just about anything here, even bashing poor judgement -- that's the beauty of these forums, but if you criticize without insightful backup, you're bound to get negative a reaction. There are a lot of haters out there that hate just about everything. Problem is that many of them can't give an intelligent reason for their hatred.
I never did a day's work in my life, it was all fun -- Thomas Edison.
 
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #132 on: June 22, 2013, 01:12:18 am »
@DiligentMinds.com:

If what you say about Keil MDK is true than it would be a game changer in the industry. Do you have actual experience using it in a commercial product or just believing in the marketing material? Do you know what specific commercial products use it?

I've banged my head with the RTOS vendors for years. They all sound great on the glossy paper, but once you buy in and start integrating the parts, they are quick to tell you that you are on your own. Things like the TCP/IP stack that you just licensed for $15k along with that $30k RTOS, well you are on your own to port them to your ARM because we only tested them on an x86 with a generic NE2000 Ethernet adapter. Then when you get to see the source code, you realize that they designed it to used the 8037 DMA which has no functional resemblance to the bus master DMA you are adapting. Try telling your manager that the RTOS and stacks he licensed will take you at least a few months to get working. I have yet to see a nice BSP with an RTOS that supports all of the on-chip peripherals and all you have to focus on is developing drivers to your own custom interfaces and the application code.

I agree that people are the most expensive resource. That is why using a well supported OS and tools can often be far cheaper than "free" software.

I'll take a look at again at the Keil MDK, but I need to see more than the glossies to be convinced.
I never did a day's work in my life, it was all fun -- Thomas Edison.
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #133 on: June 22, 2013, 01:34:50 am »
@DiligentMinds.com:

If what you say about Keil MDK is true than it would be a game changer in the industry. Do you have actual experience using it in a commercial product or just believing in the marketing material? Do you know what specific commercial products use it?
Altium added something of that scale quite a long time ago, look where it got them ;) As I recall the licensing was effectively bundled with the designer package and there was no piece part royalty.
 
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #134 on: June 22, 2013, 03:15:20 am »
Altium added something of that scale quite a long time ago, look where it got them ;) As I recall the licensing was effectively bundled with the designer package and there was no piece part royalty.

Funny you mention Altium. I bought their package and pay them yearly for maintenance. It's great for schematics and layout, reasons I bought it. It also includes an embedded C compiler and embedded software. But unfortunately they have not updated that part of the product in the last 10 years, and unless you care for using 10 year old micros, its of limited value. Same goes for their FPGA tools -- great for playing around with their NanoBoards, but not much else. So if you can ship a NanoBoard, repackaged as your own product, its great. If you need to design your own board and use a more modern MCU or FPGA, look elsewhere.
I never did a day's work in my life, it was all fun -- Thomas Edison.
 
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Offline AlfBaz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #135 on: June 22, 2013, 03:36:25 am »
So if you can ship a NanoBoard, repackaged as your own product, its great. If you need to design your own board and use a more modern MCU or FPGA, look elsewhere.
Funny you should say that. I remember them offering enclosures for the nanoboard for just that reason
 
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #136 on: June 22, 2013, 03:38:48 am »
Keil provides examples of each function on the different ARM MPUs that the IDE supports (pretty much all of them, unless they are hot off the press).  Remember, ARM bought Keil-- the Keil compiler will support any new ARM extension before anyone else does.

I know the Keil compiler supports all ARM MCUs, but were the MDK libraries customized for all of the peripherals on each vendors MCU? Do they provide GUI libraries beyond simple vector drawing and widgets, i.e., do they support dialog boxes, popup menus, 2D animation with smooth screen updating, etc.?
I never did a day's work in my life, it was all fun -- Thomas Edison.
 
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Offline fpga

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #137 on: June 22, 2013, 03:46:03 am »
So if you can ship a NanoBoard, repackaged as your own product, its great. If you need to design your own board and use a more modern MCU or FPGA, look elsewhere.
Funny you should say that. I remember them offering enclosures for the nanoboard for just that reason

Pure genius! Now why do I need the schematic and layout part of Altium if I can just use the Nanoboard and call it my own product?
I never did a day's work in my life, it was all fun -- Thomas Edison.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #138 on: June 22, 2013, 06:10:53 am »
Funny you mention Altium. I bought their package and pay them yearly for maintenance. It's great for schematics and layout, reasons I bought it. It also includes an embedded C compiler and embedded software. But unfortunately they have not updated that part of the product in the last 10 years, and unless you care for using 10 year old micros, its of limited value. Same goes for their FPGA tools -- great for playing around with their NanoBoards, but not much else. So if you can ship a NanoBoard, repackaged as your own product, its great. If you need to design your own board and use a more modern MCU or FPGA, look elsewhere.

Correct. Altium never got close to keeping up with embedded/FPGA device support, and never will.
It was a novel implementation, and looked great in the demos, but beyond that it was pretty useless and had to many traps for any serious work.
Hence hardly anyone used it for anything but traditional schematic/PCB. The embedded and FPGA tool idea was a complete flop, and cost the company almost it's entire several hundred million dollar fortune.
Altium really did think everyone would use their FPGA board instead of designing their own! Hence why they offered the PCB tool as "optional extra"  :palm:  |O  :-DD (rare triple emoticon worthy)
 
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Offline David_AVD

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #139 on: June 22, 2013, 06:14:00 am »
I don't personally know of anyone that uses more than the schematic and pcb design tools in Altium.
 
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Offline Bob S

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #140 on: June 22, 2013, 01:35:17 pm »
DiligentMinds..

Thanks for attempting to get this thread back on topic. Did Dave even mentioned WinCE in his video?
I will have one of these DMMs next week and keep hoping to see some helpful feedback on its overall use.

 
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Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #141 on: June 22, 2013, 05:34:57 pm »
DiligentMinds..

Thanks for attempting to get this thread back on topic. Did Dave even mentioned WinCE in his video?
I will have one of these DMMs next week and keep hoping to see some helpful feedback on its overall use.
Yes its glad to see that the topic is getting back on track, but in all seriousness, dealing with the bootup time and any other issues there may be is definitely helpful feedback on this device.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!
 
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Offline Leon

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #142 on: June 22, 2013, 05:54:57 pm »
Yes its glad to see that the topic is getting back on track, but in all seriousness, dealing with the bootup time and any other issues there may be is definitely helpful feedback on this device.
I see the bootup time as a non-issue. Benchmeters are not bought for their quick boot properties: you need these puppies to warm up for about an hour before you can do some serious measurements. And waiting for 60 or 61 minutes really isn't that much difference. So you either wait a long time anyway or keep the unit on all of the time on your bench. In any case, a boot time of 50 seconds really is a non-issue. And if you really need a quick and dirty measurement, surely you have a hand-held DMM lying around?
 
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Offline grego

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #143 on: June 22, 2013, 06:27:11 pm »
The big question now is splurge on this new 34461A or get a used 34401A on ebay for less than half the price.  New shinies are so hard to resist sometimes.
 
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Offline grenert

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #144 on: June 22, 2013, 07:03:23 pm »
I completely agree with the complaints about boot-up time.  While certainly you need a long time to get accurate precision measurements, you don't always need that level of accuracy.  Sure, you could just use a handheld, but if you've already got the bench meter there, why should you have to clutter it up with another meter?

If I had a Ferrari, I would hope that it could get me to the corner shop as well as take me around a track :)
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #145 on: June 23, 2013, 12:08:47 am »
Another thing I noticed in the tear-down, is that there does not appear to be an Ethernet cable going from the front-panel/out-guard-controller to the back panel.  What this means is that they are running 100-base-T signals (which are differential and hyper-sensitive to impedance anomalies) through the fancy connector on the bottom of the out-guard (from panel) board.
It's run as diff.pairs near the edge of the PCB, so pretty well seperated from the other stuff, and being differential it will already be pretty robust. I can't see why the link from magnetics to Phy should be particularly sensitive - 100Mbits isn't really that high. Take a look at the liberties taken in some cheap DVI cables and switches, which still manage to mostly work...   
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #146 on: June 23, 2013, 02:06:56 pm »
it's a good meter for the price, but my priority now is to get a waveform gen....
I recently picked up an Agilent 33220A Arb Gen and its been awesome! You can sometimes find them in good to perfect condition on eBay for around $800-900

I know $800 is a very good price the problem is the shipping price+tax....but i think i get a HMF2525: it's going to be something like 900 eur, used only 3 times and already taxed...
 

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #147 on: July 03, 2013, 05:03:13 am »
Another thing that struck me as being kind of weird-- was the 10A current input in addition to the 3A input.  I get it that they are trying to maintain compatibility with the 34401A, but why can't they do that with a single 10A input?  How is some controller hooked up to GPIB going to know if it is a 3A or a 10A input?  Weird...  Perhaps someone can chime in here and explain this...

The 10A range does not have the autoranging.
Probably done to use the same shunt resistor value.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #148 on: July 03, 2013, 06:03:36 am »
The display on this appears to be the same one used on the Garmin GPS (and others), but without the touch-screen.  That one is made by Sharp-- and is on their list for "industrial displays" (which have long-term support).

That wouldn't surprise me. I would expect them to chose a display from a big name with long term support commitments. Not just whatever they can get from the Shenzen market this week  ;D
 
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Offline Rufus

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #149 on: July 03, 2013, 01:59:25 pm »
OK, I'm going to answer myself here.  It seems that in order to maintain compatibility with the 34401A, they had to do this to keep the burden voltage the same.

10A on a single input would mean the relays (one extra), shunt protection circuits, and front/back terminal switch would all have to be rated at 10A (+ whatever overload they have to take before a 10A fuse blows). If that was practical and economical then why didn't the 34401A do 10A or even 5A?

10A on a separate front only terminal costs the terminal, an HRC fuse, and a current shunt.
 
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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #150 on: July 03, 2013, 02:09:03 pm »
These LM399 references will drift quite a bit (the data-sheet is BullSpit-- on the average, about 8ppm) in the first year, and then progressively less thereafter.  What this means is that if you buy an older well-used (and regularly calibrated) DMM, it is likely to have already gone past this early drift period, and will be quite a bit more stable than a brand new DMM.  So, if you buy a new one, leave it on for about a year-- then get it calibrated (and have them *also* adjust it-- not just measure it and claim all is well-- this might require extra beer...).  After that, unless you use it all the time, leave it OFF until about 1 hour before you want to use it, then turn it back off when you are done using it-- this will preserve the calibration for many years.  I have to assume that you actually need the extra resolution and accuracy-- (or you are a "volt nut" like me, and just want it because you want it)-- otherwise you might be better off with a really good hand-held DMM.

Fluke tech support has told me that they age the references before they go into the 8846A  to eliminate the larger initial drift. They would not tell me exactly how long but that it is a very long time.  IIRC they actually have a room dedicated to aging references.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #151 on: July 03, 2013, 03:42:54 pm »
Depends on what you consider initial drift. The LTZ1000 in the HP 3458A used to be binned in the normal models (From memory these were specced 8 ppm/yr) and the high stability option (4 ppm/yr IIRC). After a number of years, the majority of the normal references would be down to the 4 ppm level. I'm sure they aged their references for a long time (unlike for those run-off-the-mill 6.5 digit meters ;)), but there would still be a residual 'initial' drift.
 

Offline Andreas

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #152 on: July 04, 2013, 09:09:47 pm »
Mhm,

after having seen the review there are some open questions:

Agilent does not seem to have a sliding average function over e.g. 50 measurements.
When doing real precision work, just using the 6.5 Digit multimeter as a "null voltmeter" against a high stable reference/calibrator this would be a very useful function.

Does the 34461a still use the LM399 as reference or is it replaced by a cheaper LT1236LS8 device and some temperature compensation which was recently launched by LT?

How stable the new instrument really is against the old version will be seen after the 3rd calibration cycle....

If a LM399 is used as reference: The reference itself has a stability issue when being tilt. So all instruments that I have seen up to now with a LM399 have a more or less drift whether they are placed flat (bottom down) or one of the other 5 directions (e.g. upside down) on the table. (notice: it takes around 1 minute until the readings stabilize).
Usually the current consumption of the LM399 heater is a minimum when the legs are in upside direction.

So Dave: with the new instrument how much influence does the placement orientation on the table. Should I remove the handle before sending the instrument to calibration (so that they can only put them flat on the table instead of gentle tilting) or has this minor influence?

With best regards

Andreas





« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 05:33:06 am by Andreas »
 
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Offline Andreas

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #153 on: July 06, 2013, 05:33:46 am »
The reason for the tilting issiue can be found when having a look at the chip photo of LM399
(thanks to branadic for the links).



http://m.radiokot.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=52829&start=60


The heater structure is built on the right side of the chip which gives a unequal temperature distribution depending on orientation.

With best regards

Andreas
 
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Online Dr. Frank

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #154 on: July 06, 2013, 06:23:44 pm »




All DMM's that I know of (that use an integrating ADC) require that the ~7V reference be converted to +/-10V for use by the converter.  This would require 2 op-amps and 2 resistor dividers, all of which will contribute to ADC drift-- possibly more than the reference itself.  For example, in the Agilent/HP 3458A 8.5 digit DMM, they use a (drifty) dual LT1013 op-amp, a cheap (and drifty) resistor network to go from +7V to +10V, and a couple of cheap (and drifty) metal-film resistors to go from +10V to -10V.  This causes horrible temp-co drift (below the 6th digit), which forces the user to auto-cal with a temperature change of more than 1-deg-C-- (which is *very* annoying if you don't have a temperature controlled lab)-- in fact, it's so bad that if you don't control the room temperature at 23C +/-0.1C, then the last 2 digits are almost useless (except perhaps for ratio measurements).  By contrast, the Fluke 8805A 8.5 digit DMM uses chopper amps and ultra high stability metal-foil resistors for this function, and as a result there is no noticeable drift +/-5 degrees-C from Tcal (which is usually 23C).  So, while the reference is important, other components and design trade-offs can and do affect that ultimate accuracy of any DMM.

With the exception of the Fluke 8805A (which is around US$12K), I have yet to see any manufacturer design a DMM for accuracy and stability as the #1 priority-- they all seem to be more focused on "whiz-bang" features and pretty user interfaces (which is nice), but I would love to see just one manufacturer produce a 6.5 digit DMM that had honest to goodness *real* accuracy to the last digit (+/- one count on the last digit) for basic DC, and with best-in-class accuracy on all of the other functions-- and also would maintain that level of accuracy for at least one year between calibrations (and at +/-5C)-- and would also be able to be calibrated with just +10V and 10K references (ie. "artifact calibration").  In other words, something in between the realm of 6.5 digit DMM's and the Agilent 3458A.  Myself, I would be willing to pay US$2K to US$5K for that.  You can get that today by purchasing an old HP 3458A, and then set the digits displayed to 6.5-- which will remain stable at this number of digits for a long time if you "auto-cal" once per day-- but the 3458A is a rather large and heavy beast, with a very noisy fan.  I would love to have what I want without all of the "fluff", and without having to over-pay for a higher level DMM...

That said, at the US$1K price point, this 34461A is a great DMM-- and I would buy this over a less expensive Rigol 6.5 DMM just because it is designed and supported by Agilent.

Sorry D.M.,

what you assume about the 3458A is absolutely incorrect! 
NIST, PTB and all other metrological institutions wouldn't use such a scrap instrument, like you describe the 3458A.. but you can see it in every other photograph around JJ standards there...

Simply study its specifications, i.e. 0.05 + 0.05 ppm transfer accuracy for 10min. and +/- 0.5°C, and you'll directly recognize, that your theoretical assumptions are false.

Obviously, you compare the 3458A with the Fluke 8508A, (a 8805A does not exist!), but latter stability specs are even slightly worse, (0.12 + 0.1 ppm for 20min. / +/- 1°C)
And also, its T.C. is 0.3ppm/K, compared to 0.15ppm/K for the 3458A.

From practise, i.e. from my own measurements, I can tell you, that the 3458A really is able to deliver 8 stable digits on a short time scale, and to < +/-0.1ppm over > 24h, even if the internal temperature changes for a few tenths of °C.


Reason for your wrong assumptions: You have lost the overview in the 3458A CLIP, very obviously:

The +/-10V reference you mentioned: U400 = LT1013 with RP400, R402, R403, is used in the OHM circuitry only, and its stability is not important for that function at all.

The A/D in the 3458A runs instead on +/-12V references, generated on the A/D board by U160, U165 = LT1001 and 4 resistors on the A/D hybrid.
For sure, those resistors are T.C. matched, and they are isothermal, so that their influence on stability is very,very low (as the spec proves right).

Those OpAmps contribute very little to T.C., but do not add noise in the A/D circuitry, as ChopAmps (as in the 8508A???) would do in that place.


I can absolutely recommend to you the 3458A, if you go for best DCV stability and linearity.. although there are some disadvantages in that old design.

One is the mistreated LTZ1000 reference, at 95°C , which nearly gives no better 1yr. stability than a LM399. (Can easily be pimped to much better stability).

And the 1000V range is not compensated for self heating effects, as is the 8508A.


The new 34461A is really nice, because it's a modern and cheaper version of the old 34401A. And the scrappy current ranges are improved a lot.

Once again, an improved 1yr. stability for the 34461A would require a well designed LTZ1000 only ( agilent would suck several 100 bucks more for that).

You can age the LM399 as long as you like, but you will NEVER get a stable reference out of it..
As there exists no spec and no method for reliable ageing for a smaller  1yr. stability, it will drift forever, and everything else is simply wishful and very theoretical thinking.

You only have the chance to monitor running references and to sort out the most stable - and that's exactly, what they all (Fluke, agilent,..) are doing.


Not to forget: If you need for some reasons 6,5 digits of stability and uncertainty in your measurement, you'll have to use a 7,5 digit instrument, due to the digital, i.e. 10:1 ranging.
A 6,5 digit instrument 'precise' to the last digit won't make sense, therefore.

Therefore, a 3458A would be the right choice for that requirement.

Frank


« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 08:00:17 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #155 on: July 07, 2013, 05:38:57 am »
about the comparison of HP/Agilent 3458A and Fluke 8508A, the att. charts might be helpful
All shown graphs represent the 1 year DCV datasheet specs.

In this comparison I find the 3458A is not even close to the 8508A accuracy.
The 3458A-02 Option looks a little better and comes closer.

Only the (Fluke) 3458A/HFL version is in parts of the 10V range a little bit better then the 8508A.
BTW I would be interested to know if/where you can actually buy the HFL version and how much it is (or was).
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/r0en/digital-multimeters/HP-3458-HFL.htm?PID=56270

When I looked at other functions accuracy comparisons I found the Fluke 8508A overall is superior to 3458A.
The next best thing to the Fluke 8508A still seems to be the good old Datron/Wavetek 1281.   

edit: added another chart with changed colors of the 3458A-02 and 3458A/HFL to better see the difference
edit: error correction in HFL and with input about 3458A 1kV range from Dr.Frank revised the chart
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 01:16:43 pm by quarks »
 
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Online Dr. Frank

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #156 on: July 07, 2013, 07:02:06 pm »
about the comparison of HP/Agilent 3458A and Fluke 8508A, the att. charts might be helpful
All shown graphs represent the 1 year DCV datasheet specs.

In this comparison I find the 3458A is not even close to the 8508A accuracy.
The 3458A-02 Option looks a little better and comes closer.

Only the (Fluke) 3458A/HFL version is in parts of the 10V range a little bit better then the 8508A. But in all other ranges it is the same as with Option 02.
BTW I would be interested to know if/where you can actually buy the HFL version and how much it is (or was).
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/r0en/digital-multimeters/HP-3458-HFL.htm?PID=56270

When I looked at other functions accuracy comparisons I found the Fluke 8508A overall is superior to 3458A.
The next best thing to the Fluke 8508A still seems to be the good old Datron/Wavetek 1281.   

edit: added another chart with changed colors of the 3458A-02 and 3458A/HFL to better see the difference

Hello,

interesting charts..
but 1 yr. stability might not be the key parameter.

transfer accuracy / linearity is often more interesting, and there, 3458A has not been beaten yet.

Also don't forget, that the 3458A is VERY mediocre on 1kV DC specification (not shown in your charts), in the small footnotes, you'll find 12ppm cross something squared Volt, for an uncertainty of 12ppm for 1000V only...

All other 8,5 DMMs are specified much, much better.

Frank
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 07:12:58 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline lewis

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #157 on: July 08, 2013, 12:27:08 am »
edit: added another chart with changed colors of the 3458A-02 and 3458A/HFL to better see the difference

Nice graphs, but which is which? The bottom and the top curves look the same (in colour) to me.

Maybe label the curve right next to the curve itself rather than using a key?
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #158 on: July 08, 2013, 06:40:47 am »
This is my last post on this subject-- since it is way off-topic...  (Maybe we should start a new thread?)
here you go
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/8-5-digit-dmm/msg258880/#msg258880
 
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #159 on: July 08, 2013, 06:43:31 am »
edit: added another chart with changed colors of the 3458A-02 and 3458A/HFL to better see the difference

Nice graphs, but which is which? The bottom and the top curves look the same (in colour) to me.

Maybe label the curve right next to the curve itself rather than using a key?

in the 3rd 2nd chart there is the legend on the right side (top graph is 3458A, bottom is 8508A in between is 3458A-02 and HFL)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 12:39:42 pm by quarks »
 
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #160 on: July 08, 2013, 10:01:15 am »
interesting charts..
but 1 yr. stability might not be the key parameter.

transfer accuracy / linearity is often more interesting, and there, 3458A has not been beaten yet.

Also don't forget, that the 3458A is VERY mediocre on 1kV DC specification (not shown in your charts), in the small footnotes, you'll find 12ppm cross something squared Volt, for an uncertainty of 12ppm for 1000V only...

All other 8,5 DMMs are specified much, much better.

Frank
Hello Frank,
you are right about stability and transfer accuracy / linearity. The 3458A still is a very good meter. I also had it on my wishlist, especially because of the nice/easy artefact calibration with only 10VDC + 10k Ohm references.

I found and use my charts for almost all of my considerations and always before making a buying decisions. Therefore when I look at gear, the 1 year specs are the first parameters  I compare. Because in my experience most of my better gear (I check regularly), indicates to stay at least within these limits over years.

Unfortunately I do not understand your comment about 1kV. I used the att. numbers in the charts (incl. 1kV). Please let me know what is wrong or missing, so I can fix it.

bye
quarks
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 10:03:18 am by quarks »
 
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Online Dr. Frank

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #161 on: July 08, 2013, 10:32:54 am »
Hello Frank,
you are right about stability and transfer accuracy / linearity. The 3458A still is a very good meter. I also had it on my wishlist, especially because of the nice/easy artefact calibration with only 10VDC + 10k Ohm references.

I found and use my charts for almost all of my considerations and always before making a buying decisions. Therefore when I look at gear, the 1 year specs are the first parameters  I compare. Because in my experience most of my better gear (I check regularly), indicates to stay at least within these limits over years.

Unfortunately I do not understand your comment about 1kV. I used the att. numbers in the charts (incl. 1kV). Please let me know what is wrong or missing, so I can fix it.

bye
quarks

In the specification (e.g. page 82 in the calibration manual), you'll find footnote 6 for the 1kV DCV range:

"Add 12 ppm X (Vin/1000)2 additional error for inputs >100 V."

That means, you have to add a quadratic term for the 1kV range, culminating in  additional 12ppm for 1kV.
=> 1000V: 24h = 14.6ppm, 1yr  = 22.1ppm

This describes the shift in the 100:1 divider, due to self heating effects.

All other DVM  will have this same effect in their high voltage divider, but obviously have software to compensate for that  (to 1ppm level), e.g. by adding additional cal points at 500V and 1000V.

The full autocal feature of the 3458A does not allow such a compensation calibration...

In practise I have measured about 3-4 ppm additionally for my 3458A @ 1000V, measured directly with a Fluke 5442A (this instrument has an oven-stabilization/compensation of its range resistors) and by comparison with my DIY precision Hamon type 100:1 divider, which should be by design uncertain to < 1ppm @ 1kV.

Which other DVM / standards really have full auto-cal or artefact calibration capabilities, i.e. calibration by 10V and 10kOhm references only?

I know the 3458A, the 5440/5442, the 720A, 752A, and the 5700/5720 only.

As DVMs are not accepted and not usable as real 'standards' (e.g. statement from NIST), it is more helpful to have external  10V, 10kOhm standards (stable ones) instead, and then forget about the 1yr. specs of the DVM.

Together with the autocal feature of the 3458A, such a system is much more versatile...


And not to forget: The references drift mainly if they are powered on.

If you switch the 3458A off most of the time, its 1yr. drift will be very low, even with the regular 8ppm/yr. reference.


Best regards Frank

« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 11:49:52 am by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #162 on: July 08, 2013, 12:25:54 pm »
"Add 12 ppm X (Vin/1000)2 additional error for inputs >100 V."

Thanks Frank, now I got it. I revised the chart with this detail.

Which other DVM / standards really have full auto-cal or artefact calibration capabilities, i.e. calibration by 10V and 10kOhm references only?

That is exactly what attracted me most. I actually bought my SR104 to be ready for a 3458A.

BTW: Maybe this whole page 13 should be moved to https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/8-5-digit-dmm/msg258880/#msg258880 by an admin
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 01:11:18 pm by quarks »
 
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Offline Lawsen

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #163 on: July 09, 2013, 12:48:19 am »
I totally like the graphic display and color, too.  This is a nice improvement to the original HP-34401A "alf code name of HP (Agilent)."  The price is reasonable for a bench top multimeter.  I like the menu buttons along the bottom and USB memory port, but I will not need that feature. 
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #164 on: July 13, 2013, 10:24:37 pm »
While I was comparing specs:
The burden voltage on the ranges 1A and 3A are very high compared to other DMM even the BM869 (45mV/A) is much better, their 10A range is then normal again.
1A < 0.7V
3A < 2.0V
10A < 0.5V
The 2 lowest ranges 100µA and 1mA are very good though even better than the Fluke 8846A.  (<0.11V vs <0.15V)

They only make you switch to the 0.01ohm shunt (10A terminal) above 3A.
The DM3068 makes you switch to this shunt above 200mA the Fluke above 400mA (BM869 >500mA)
So it makes you switch later but you pay a big price for it. Measuring 1A will be with lower resolution or bigger burden voltage.


Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #165 on: July 14, 2013, 09:18:09 am »
Quote
and (eventually) you will be able to get schematics for them
What is the basis for that statement? 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #166 on: July 14, 2013, 09:59:55 am »
In Dave's review, he said that the manual states that for highest accuracy, you should use the 10A input.  (The 3A input is only there for 34401A compatibility).

The 10A range is fixed, it does not do autoranging. If you want the lower range you have to use the 3A input.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #167 on: July 14, 2013, 08:40:38 pm »
Does Agilent release schematics for equipment when it gets old, or is it just that old equipment was released when the policy about releasing schematics was different? I can't see a good business case for Agilent releasing schematics when equipment gets near EOL. Sure, it might get them a tiny amount of goodwill, but it won't give them many new sales for that instrument. Unless they make this a written police, it won't help them selling newer equipment either.
 

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #168 on: July 14, 2013, 08:56:47 pm »
Links to any released Agilent (as opposed to HP) schematics anyone?
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Offline lewis

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #169 on: July 14, 2013, 09:25:18 pm »
www.schemati.....  bugger.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #170 on: July 14, 2013, 10:14:15 pm »
The 3458 schematic is here: http://www.schematicsunlimited.com/h/hp-agilent but it's an HP schematic, not 'Agilent'.
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alm

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #171 on: July 14, 2013, 10:19:15 pm »
Component level information packages (CLIPs) are usually for sale to customers, although they might cost around $200 (not that big of a deal given the price of a 3458a). As far as I know, both the 3458a and 34401a schematics were released either when the instrument was released or shortly after. At which point the availability can still affect purchase decisions.
 

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #172 on: July 15, 2013, 06:56:33 am »
The Agilents offered manuals does not contain schematic, which is the biggest pain in the ass when you are troubleshooting.
E.G for 20k spectrum analyzer they only offer assembly level service quide with block diagrams and list of service parts for $500.
As far as I know Agilent does not release schematic anymore, only for  instrumnets which were released prior Agilent takeover HP.
The 34401A and the 3458A are not good example, try to find the schematic for 34411A.
In my job we had to send many time the instruments for repair to one company which was takeover by Tektronix and everytime the repair cost more than new instrument. But they offer the discount for the brand new ;-) Their service did not try to replace or troubleshoot, just replace whole main board. In most cases it will need to replace  just transistor or opamp and calibrate it.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 05:51:29 pm by plesa »
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #173 on: July 26, 2013, 12:44:43 pm »
About the true RMS it only takes the AC component of it, present in the spec. sheet(doesn't really make it true RMS from my point of view)

I just checked with my DM3068 and since there is an filter in it (3Hz and up) it also only shows the AC component.
Also the reason why the Gaussian pulse of the DG4160 seemed wrong, the AC component was right.
(the cardiac one and others are still wrong though I only measure 0.63Vrms)
The DG4160 signal has the mean in the middle between peaks (not DC mean, after cap)

My Brymen BM869 is doing true RMS of the signal (DC+AC) it even shows the AC only part in the dual screen.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 02:21:27 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 
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alm

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #174 on: July 26, 2013, 07:35:56 pm »
RMS stands for the root mean square, or sqrt(mean(x^2)). It does not specify what this x is. The datasheet only mentions true RMS in the context of AC voltage or current. The true in true RMS is there because these meters measure the RMS value, unlike average responding meters that rectify the signal and multiply the average by sqrt(2), which is only accurate for purely sinusoidal signals ('fake RMS').

If I press the 'Vac' button, then I expect to read the AC voltage, not AC+DC. This is important for for example ripple measurements. I don't mind an extra AC+DC feature, although I find sqrt(Vac^2+Vdc^2) as easy as switching to AC+DC mode. If AC+DC is important for you, then you should specifically look for this feature. It's not a standard feature, as you have found out.
 

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #175 on: July 26, 2013, 08:11:59 pm »
I agree if they offer AC+DC then they should obviously also have DC and AC only.
I just find it strange that it's missing AC+DC for a new device and mention the relation to what the function generator was generating.
You can measure them separately and add(rms) them together on your calculator though. (so it's not that you can't determine it)
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #176 on: July 31, 2013, 02:34:33 am »
New firmware just released:
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-536902435.1058513&id=2367633

Changes:
Quote
Revision 1.09 Enhancements and Changes
1. Reduces DMM boot time from ~ 50 seconds to < 30 seconds.
2. Adds a query which returns the DMM power on duration since the last power cycle. This is accessed
from the front panel by pressing:
Shift ? Utility ? Test/Admin ? Calibrate ? Show Uptime
or by sending the command: SYSTem:UPTime?
3. Adds the ability to turn off the key “click” when a front panel key is pressed. This is accessed from the
front panel by pressing:
Shift ? Utility ? System Setup ? User Settings ? Sounds ? Key Click (Off/On)
or by sending the command:
SYSTem:CLICk:STATe (OFF/ON)
4. Now displays the current level associated with diode measurements.
5. Resolved a defect such that a wildcard (*) used with MMEM: or MMEM:DEL now operates in the
same manner.
6. Resolved a defect such that sending a Device Clear while *TST? or TEST:ALL? is in progress no longer
locks up the instrument. 2
7. Resolved a defect such that sending a Device Clear while a self-test in in progress no longer causes
-310, “System error” and/or self-test failed errors.
8. Modified the message regarding changes to the DMM’s LAN Services to avoid confusion. For new
service settings to take effect, press:
Done ? Apply Changes
and then cycle power.
9. Resolved a defect such that DISPlay:VIEW TCHart will now display data independent of the
CALCulate:AVERage:STATe setting.
10. Resolved a defect such that DATA:REMove? No longer intermittently generates -230, “Data corrupt
or stale” errors when sufficient readings are available.
11. Resolved a defect such that selecting Default Preferences from the front panel:
Shift ? Utility ? Store/Recall ? Set to Defaults ? Default Pref
now sets the default ‘Easy File Access’ setting (OFF).
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #177 on: July 31, 2013, 01:01:06 pm »
I can confirm it boots in about 30 seconds now. Much better.
 
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Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #178 on: July 31, 2013, 04:22:30 pm »
Nice. Now that I think I could just barely starting living with.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!
 
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Offline plesa

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #179 on: July 31, 2013, 04:40:47 pm »
Okay, figured it out, here is a quick and dirty hack that reads one sample per 120us. Or, well, every 100us if you live in the US or western Japan (or is it eastern, I forget...)

Code: [Select]
#include "stdafx.h"
#include <visa.h>
#include <Windows.h>

int _tmain(int argc, _TCHAR* argv[])
{
ViSession rm;
viOpenDefaultRM(&rm);
ViSession v34410;

FILE *fp;
FILE *fcsv;
long int start_time, end_time;
       
int i;
const int readings_size = 1000;
double readings[readings_size];

fp = fopen("data.tmp", "w+b");
if (fp == NULL)
{
printf("Unable to open data.tmp.\n");
return(1);
}

//Change the VISA instrument address to that found by Agilent Connection Expert
viOpen(rm, "USB0::0x0957::0x0607::my47032312::0::INSTR", VI_NULL, VI_NULL, &v34410);

viPrintf(v34410, "*RST\n");
Sleep(100);
viPrintf(v34410, "*CLS\n");

//viPrintf(v34410, ":SYSTem:REMote\n");
       
// Configure for low resolution, 4.5 digits
viPrintf(v34410, ":CONFigure:VOLTage:DC %s\n", "1");
viPrintf(v34410, ":SENSe:VOLTage:DC:NPLCycles %@3lf\n", 0.006);

// Disable autorange, enter voltage range value
viPrintf(v34410, ":SENSe:VOLTage:DC:RANGe:AUTO %@1d\n", 0);
viPrintf(v34410, ":SENSe:VOLTage:DC:RANGe %@3lf\n", 5.0);

// Disable autozero mode
viPrintf(v34410, ":SENSe:ZERO:AUTO %s\n", "OFF");

// Turn off display and internal measurement statistics
viPrintf(v34410, ":CALCulate:STATe %@1d\n", 0);
viPrintf(v34410, ":DISPlay %@1d\n", 0);

// little endian mode
//viPrintf(v34410, ":FORMat:BORDer %s\n", "SWAPped");
//viPrintf(v34410, ":FORMat:DATA %s\n", "REAL,64");

// Set trigger delay to zero so DMM immediately takes readings.
viPrintf(v34410, ":TRIGger:DELay %@3lf\n", 0.0);
viPrintf(v34410, ":TRIGger:COUNt %s\n", "INF"); // infinite readings
viPrintf(v34410, ":SAMPle:COUNt %@1d\n", 10000);

// start sampling
viPrintf(v34410, ":INITiate:IMMediate\n");
start_time = GetTickCount();

int points;
long int point_count = 0;

for (int j = 0; j < 10; j++)
{
// wait for buffer to fill
do
{
Sleep(75);
viQueryf(v34410, ":DATA:POIN?", "%d", &points);
} while (points < 2000);

viQueryf(v34410, ":DATA:REM? 1000\n", "%,#lf", &readings_size, readings);

fwrite(&readings, sizeof(readings), 1, fp);
point_count += 1000;
}
end_time = GetTickCount();

// finish sampling
viPrintf(v34410, ":ABORt\n");
viPrintf(v34410, ":DISPlay %@1d\n", 1);

printf("Total readings:\t%ld\n", point_count);
printf("Total time:\t%f s\n", (double)(end_time - start_time) / 1000);
printf("Finished.\r\n");

//Close instrument session
viClose(v34410);
viClose(rm);

printf("Converting to CSV...\n");

fcsv = fopen("data.csv", "w");
if (fcsv == NULL)
{
printf("Unable to open data.tmp.\n");
return(1);
}

fseek(fp, 0, SEEK_SET);

double d;
double time_ms = 0;

while (!feof(fp))
{
fread(&d, sizeof(d), 1, fp);
fprintf(fcsv, "%f,%f\n", time_ms, d);
time_ms += 0.12; // 120us
}

printf("Conversion complete, measurement period %f ms.\n", time_ms);

fclose(fp);
fclose(fcsv);

return 0;
}

Is it for continuous reading or there is some time period which is not covered - during reading data?
 
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #180 on: March 08, 2014, 10:55:02 pm »
So, I got this meter the other day, lots of things to learn, looks like an very decent meter.

But, I have an fluke, with thermocouple adapter, and an thermocouple beadprobe, For some reason, that adapter does not fit this meter (physically), and, it seems that this meter is not compatible with ktype thermocouples?, only thermistor?, and rtd's?

 
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Offline ielektros

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #181 on: March 08, 2014, 11:19:52 pm »
Yes. The 34461 is not compatible with K-type thermocouples. I bought same DMM yesterday.

Very good multimeter. The first impressions are quiet good. Only I can't  use with Windows8.1 and BenchVue together. I tried a whole day to configure without results.  Thats make me crazy a little bit... :)
 
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Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #182 on: March 10, 2014, 04:08:26 pm »
So, I got this meter the other day, lots of things to learn, looks like an very decent meter.

But, I have an fluke, with thermocouple adapter, and an thermocouple beadprobe, For some reason, that adapter does not fit this meter (physically), and, it seems that this meter is not compatible with ktype thermocouples?, only thermistor?, and rtd's?
Yea this was a let down for me too. The only Agilent device of any reasonable price I found that will use and log thermocouples was one of their DataLoggers which was quite expensive and required accessories to make it work. Not ideal at all. Thats why I picked up a Fluke 53 II B for my thermocouple and datalogging needs. My Fluke 289 will do it as well but only with K-Type thermocouples and half the accuracy of the Fluke 51, 52, 53, 54 series.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #183 on: March 10, 2014, 04:43:30 pm »
And the Agilent is an benchmeter, not needing to feed the batteries.. i have av 289 also, but I was not very crazy about the whole deal around the expensive proprietary software for datalogging from Fluke.

I wonder if that is something that could change through an firmware update, it's just voltages to be measured..
But It seems like the distance between the terminals is slightly different than on the fluke meters, since I cannot push the thermocouple adapter in? or is the meter to new?
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #184 on: March 10, 2014, 05:06:29 pm »
it's just voltages to be measured..

Not just voltage, you must also measure the temperature of the connection.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #185 on: March 10, 2014, 05:13:48 pm »
And the Agilent is an benchmeter, not needing to feed the batteries.. i have av 289 also, but I was not very crazy about the whole deal around the expensive proprietary software for datalogging from Fluke.

I wonder if that is something that could change through an firmware update, it's just voltages to be measured..
But It seems like the distance between the terminals is slightly different than on the fluke meters, since I cannot push the thermocouple adapter in? or is the meter to new?
Its a bit more than just measuring the voltages unfortunately. Read the wiki on thermocouples and youll see what I mean. That beaing said, the $135 (LINK) FlukeView software with the cable isnt really too bad a price considering its cheaper than a good quality dedicated digital thermocouple based thermometer (like the Fluke 50 series). And you can use the software with a number of other devices and on your 289 you can use it for all types of other logging. Personally I cant imagine owning a 289 without it.
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Offline Sparky

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #186 on: March 12, 2014, 06:05:40 pm »
I'm interested!  I have 34461A and it would be great to have flexibility to stream data from it, so I'd be interested in testing if it works, or the changes needed.  Could you upload your project to GitHub?  Thanks!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 10:03:43 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline plesa

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #187 on: March 20, 2014, 09:19:15 pm »
Does anybody knows how to add the timestamp to .csv logging?
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #188 on: March 21, 2014, 12:54:04 am »
Does anybody knows how to add the timestamp to .csv logging?

I am not sure, but mojo-chan has done a fair bit of work with the 34461A; I'm still hoping he will report back with his updated script for streaming 10kS/sec from the multimeter.
 
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Offline plesa

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #189 on: March 21, 2014, 10:23:53 pm »
Thanks, I was probably not clear enough. I mean for logging to USB drive.
Some fast digitizing can be useful. But without details it is useles :-)
For such a fast reading I suppose that LAN is only one option.
There were some app notes related to digitizing with 34411A.
 
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Offline Sparky

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #190 on: March 21, 2014, 10:36:18 pm »
Okay, no worries!  Thanks for the update and tips!  Love your application of the 34410A for streaming high accuracy current / voltage measurements from battery powered devices!  Neat!

I will play with the 34461A, and see what can be created with MATLAB!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 10:04:07 am by EEVblog »
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #191 on: March 21, 2014, 11:09:42 pm »
Interesting with 34411A is USB only little bit slower than LAN
32-bit Binary
GPIB 89,000
USB 265,000
VXI 110,000
LAN 270,000
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 10:04:26 am by EEVblog »
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #192 on: March 24, 2014, 06:00:50 pm »
Thanks mojo-chan!  I looked for your screenshots earlier, but didn't find any.  Thanks for posting some!

This is the first time I've heard of KST (http://kst-plot.kde.org/) and it looks like an awesome data visualization tool --- cross-platform and free, too!

If I understand correctly, you did not integrate the "data logging" into a KST application.  Rather, you have a separate (command line) utility to start/stop the data sampling from the Agilent DMM, and save the results to text file.  Then, you use the KST to show the results.

I suppose it could be possible to build a KST application with the data logging integrated with it, so that real-time plotting was possible?
 
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #193 on: March 24, 2014, 07:15:18 pm »
I have been searching around to find documentations and sample code for programming against the 34461A, the Agilent website is useless, I'm not finding much and it seems like some information are scattered around.

On this blogpost I found an link with more info than the productpage for the 34461:
http://gpete-neil.blogspot.no/2013/11/continuous-measurements-with-34461a.html

And on this there is an link to some C# code, but when I download the archive mentioned here, it does not contain the same samples as discussed on the blog:
http://gpete-neil.blogspot.no/2014/03/scpi-programming-with-visual-studio.html

Does it exist anything better than this?, for instance, is it not possible to get binary data from the meter?, on some it seems you can use somehting like:

FORMat:DATA:REAL,32

or something like that to get binary?

 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #194 on: March 24, 2014, 09:04:46 pm »
Interesting with 34411A is USB only little bit slower than LAN
32-bit Binary
GPIB 89,000
USB 265,000
VXI 110,000
LAN 270,000

The numbers quoted by plesa are from the 34411A data sheet, page 4 (which I've attached).  These speeds are specific to readout from of data memory ("Path B"), not coming from the ADC ("Path C") -- see pic on page 4.

It would help everyone to quote where you get the values from, or if they are your own measurements.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 10:04:58 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline dc101

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #195 on: March 25, 2014, 01:47:43 am »
Thanks many for the links!  I've been looking for an easy solution to chart data for the past month.  I recently got a DC load and wanted to make some voltage vs time plots of batteries.  This looks like just the program.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 10:05:19 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline alex.forencich

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #196 on: March 25, 2014, 05:24:08 am »
I have been searching around to find documentations and sample code for programming against the 34461A, the Agilent website is useless, I'm not finding much and it seems like some information are scattered around.

On this blogpost I found an link with more info than the productpage for the 34461:
http://gpete-neil.blogspot.no/2013/11/continuous-measurements-with-34461a.html

And on this there is an link to some C# code, but when I download the archive mentioned here, it does not contain the same samples as discussed on the blog:
http://gpete-neil.blogspot.no/2014/03/scpi-programming-with-visual-studio.html

Does it exist anything better than this?, for instance, is it not possible to get binary data from the meter?, on some it seems you can use somehting like:

FORMat:DATA:REAL,32

or something like that to get binary?

I think for most instruments, the format command will affect all calls to read out data.  So if that format:data command puts it in 32 bit floating point format, then all subsequent calls to readout methods should return data in that format.  Just make sure you read it out correctly, it may have an IEEE block format header that needs to be stripped off. 
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #197 on: March 25, 2014, 06:11:46 am »
My point is that there is no docmented Format function in this "manual"


Do Anyone know how to unpack the firmware upd file?, so I could extract the strings out from that?
 
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Offline plesa

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #198 on: March 25, 2014, 08:28:42 pm »
I have been searching around to find documentations and sample code for programming against the 34461A, the Agilent website is useless, I'm not finding much and it seems like some information are scattered around.

On this blogpost I found an link with more info than the productpage for the 34461:
http://gpete-neil.blogspot.no/2013/11/continuous-measurements-with-34461a.html

And on this there is an link to some C# code, but when I download the archive mentioned here, it does not contain the same samples as discussed on the blog:
http://gpete-neil.blogspot.no/2014/03/scpi-programming-with-visual-studio.html

Does it exist anything better than this?, for instance, is it not possible to get binary data from the meter?, on some it seems you can use somehting like:

FORMat:DATA:REAL,32

or something like that to get binary?

It is quite usable link, thanks for sharing. It looks like Agilent semi-official blog.
I will try it and compare the 34461A and 34411A performance.
 
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Offline Sparky

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #199 on: March 25, 2014, 09:28:27 pm »
It is quite usable link, thanks for sharing. It looks like Agilent semi-official blog.
I will try it and compare the 34461A and 34411A performance.

Will be great to see your results!  I have 34461A (which its data sheet lists the streaming data rate at 1kS/sec), but 34411A is a beast!  Very interested to read about your findings.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 09:34:20 pm by Sparky »
 
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Offline plesa

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #200 on: March 27, 2014, 07:37:36 am »
The fastest readings which I achieved
34411A  4476 readings/sec with NPLC 0,001
34461A  991 readings/sec with NPLC 0,02

The most fancy will be faster but continuous reading.
 
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #201 on: March 27, 2014, 12:28:51 pm »
DISP:STAT OFF ?
if you only use lan or usb, would it have any point to disable the other also?

and for reading, is it typically DATA:REM 10 or SAM:COUN 10 ? / READ ?

And is it only the document named "Agilent Truevolt Series DMM Operating and Service Guide" that contains anything of interrest?
 
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Offline Sparky

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #202 on: March 27, 2014, 04:50:49 pm »
The fastest readings which I achieved
34411A  4476 readings/sec with NPLC 0,001
34461A  991 readings/sec with NPLC 0,02

For the 34461A, this seems very reasonable --- the data sheet lists 1000 readings/sec.

The result for 34411A seems very far off reported maximums in the data sheet/users guide.  On p126 of the 34411A Users Guide it says that with 0.001 NPLC, 50k readings/sec is possible (for DCV, DCI and 2-Wire resistance measures).

Refer to the footnotes on p135 (pic attached) for the conditions for maximum measurement rate:
[1] ½ scale input signal, immediate trigger, trigger delay 0, autozero off, autorange off, no math, 60 Hz line, null off, sample count 50000, trigger count INF

Many of the suggestions from mojo-chan can be found in the footnotes in the Specifications of the Users Guide.



 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #203 on: March 27, 2014, 06:08:53 pm »
The result for 34411A seems very far off reported maximums in the data sheet/users guide.  On p126 of the 34411A Users Guide it says that with 0.001 NPLC, 50k readings/sec is possible (for DCV, DCI and 2-Wire resistance measures).

That is the theoretical maximum if the readings are going directly to the DMM's RAM. It has 1M samples of memory so 20 seconds at 50k samples/sec, but the datasheet kind of implies that 50,000 samples is the maximum count, i.e. only 1 second.

If you try to stream at the same time as recording I bet it won't get anywhere near that speed.

The table I posted says "Direct I/O Measurements, any remote interface, Sustained maximum reading rate..."  For DCV and 2-Wire ohms, it states 50k readings per second, which I interpret as continuous streaming of measurements.  Even if it is a theoretical maximum, it is a lot higher than "34411A  4476 readings/sec with NPLC 0,001" reported by plesa.  That's all that I was getting at when I said "The result for 34411A seems very far off..."  There are a lot of settings (as listed under the table), for how to achieve the maximum rate; perhaps plesa can compare his setup to those settings.


I didn't notice, but where/how does the data sheet imply that 50,000 samples is the maximum count, i.e. only 1 second and not 20 seconds of continuous measurements?  Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 06:12:19 pm by Sparky »
 
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Offline plesa

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #204 on: March 28, 2014, 08:29:53 am »
Short update.
34411A   6966 readings/s
34461A   1088 rediangs/sec
Disabling display makes only small difference and disabling interface seems to have some dependency.

 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #205 on: March 28, 2014, 09:32:05 am »
I didn't notice, but where/how does the data sheet imply that 50,000 samples is the maximum count, i.e. only 1 second and not 20 seconds of continuous measurements?  Thanks!

I read it somewhere in the command spec, but I can't remember where. Actually the number is for single shot recordings, if you stream you can obviously keep going forever.


If it's the same as the DM3068 then you need to multiply this 50000 with the number of triggers.
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline Sparky

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #206 on: March 29, 2014, 05:45:28 am »
I didn't notice, but where/how does the data sheet imply that 50,000 samples is the maximum count, i.e. only 1 second and not 20 seconds of continuous measurements?  Thanks!

I read it somewhere in the command spec, but I can't remember where. Actually the number is for single shot recordings, if you stream you can obviously keep going forever.

I need to do some continuous temperature measurements on my 34461A, so I've followed up on the trigger and sample count aspect.  The following is all relevant to single trigger recordings, but it's a clarification nonetheless:

For the 34461A, the User's Guide (p 114) says:
"You can use the specified sample count (SAMPle:COUNt) in conjunction with a trigger count (TRIGger:COUNt), which sets the number of triggers to be accepted before returning to the "idle" trigger state. The total number of measurements returned will be the product of the sample count and trigger count."

And it gives an example: return ten sets of five DC voltage measurements, using a positive-going external trigger to start each measurement set:
Code: [Select]
CONF:VOLT:DC
SAMP:COUN 5
TRIG:COUN 10
TRIG:SOUR EXT;SLOP POS
READ?
Typical Response: +1.00520000E+01, … (50 measurements)

It seems you could collect 10k samples with just one trigger using: SAMPle:COUNt 10000, TRIGger:COUNt 1
At the maximum 1000 samples/Sec, that would be a 10sec acquisition time.


For the 34410A and 34411A the relevant User's Guide (p 71) says:
"By default, when the multimeter is in the wait–for–trigger state, it takes one reading (or sample) each time you trigger the multimeter. You can, however, instruct the multimeter to take up to  50,000 readings (up to 1 million for the 34411A/L4411A) each time a trigger is initiated, whether from the front panel or remote interface."

In the spec's (p 137) it confirms:
Triggering and Memory
Samples per Trigger: 1 to 50,000 (34410A)
                                  1 to 1,000,000 (34411A/L4411A)

So according to the spec's it should be possible to acquire 50k Samples/sec on the 34411A, continuously for 20sec, and fill up the 1M sample memory.


Quote
Quote
The table I posted says "Direct I/O Measurements, any remote interface, Sustained maximum reading rate..."

That would be nice, but I'd be surprised if you could do it over GPIB for example. Maybe the DMM can do it but most PC GPIB interfaces can't.

Anyway, post working code that demonstrates it... Until then it is theoretical. Agilent certainly can't produce any code that proves it, which is kind of hilarious considering they advertise it as a feature.

On the sample blog mentioned by neslekkim, it has a page on Using a DMM as a Low Frequency Analyzer, and with reference to the 34411A it says "The sample rate is adjustable and ranges from around 1 S/s at greater than 20 bits of resolution to 50 KS/s at 14 bits of resolution. At 50 KS/s we can analyze signal frequency components below 25 KHz."  A MATLAB and VEE program are provided to test!  plesa I wonder if you checked those programs with your 34411A?  Would be great to hear if you can increase the sample rate from your latest result.


« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 05:49:28 am by Sparky »
 
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #207 on: March 31, 2014, 11:43:23 am »
aha, I was wondering why i got that Error sign..
I was messing around with Benchvue and iotrace(?), and I had to reboot the meter afterwards, it thought it still was controlled remotely, and the error sign did not go away :)
 
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Offline alex.forencich

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #208 on: April 01, 2014, 03:58:45 am »
You can set the trigger count to "INF" (infinite) for unlimited sampling. If you don't keep clearing the buffer and it overflows you will get an error on the DMM's display.

How do you get a regular trigger in this mode?  As far as I can tell, the only trigger options are 'bus', 'immediate', and 'external'.  Bus and immedate both require a command to be sent to he meter to take a measruement, so the trigger jitter will depend on the jitter of the commands from the control software (which will likely be pretty bad).  External requires an external trigger source, so this is not really all that useful.  Is there any to get the meter to take an arbitrary number of samples separated by the trigger delay, without any time-dependent intervention by the control software?
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Offline Sparky

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #209 on: April 01, 2014, 04:13:35 am »
Is there any to get the meter to take an arbitrary number of samples separated by the trigger delay, without any time-dependent intervention by the control software?

Yes, there is.  From the 34461A users guide (p 255):

TRIGger:DELay  Sets the delay between the trigger signal and the first measurement. This may be useful in applications where you want to allow the input to settle before taking a measurement or for pacing a burst of measurements.

Also see: SAMPle:COUNt  and  TRIGger:COUNt
 
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Offline alex.forencich

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #210 on: April 01, 2014, 07:52:19 am »
Is there any to get the meter to take an arbitrary number of samples separated by the trigger delay, without any time-dependent intervention by the control software?

Yes, there is.  From the 34461A users guide (p 255):

TRIGger:DELay  Sets the delay between the trigger signal and the first measurement. This may be useful in applications where you want to allow the input to settle before taking a measurement or for pacing a burst of measurements.

Also see: SAMPle:COUNt  and  TRIGger:COUNt

Yes, but this is limited to the maximum SAMPLE:COUNT setting.  If I want to take an arbitrary number (say 100,000,000) measurements, how do I do that?  On my 34401A, I can do up to 50,000 before I have to send the meter another trigger, and this will interrupt the measurement flow.  My question is how do you work around this?  You can set trigger:count to inifinity, but it is not clear to me how to utilize this. 
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Offline Sparky

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #211 on: April 01, 2014, 08:26:52 am »
Is there any to get the meter to take an arbitrary number of samples separated by the trigger delay, without any time-dependent intervention by the control software?

Yes, there is.  From the 34461A users guide (p 255):

TRIGger:DELay  Sets the delay between the trigger signal and the first measurement. This may be useful in applications where you want to allow the input to settle before taking a measurement or for pacing a burst of measurements.

Also see: SAMPle:COUNt  and  TRIGger:COUNt

Yes, but this is limited to the maximum SAMPLE:COUNT setting.  If I want to take an arbitrary number (say 100,000,000) measurements, how do I do that?  On my 34401A, I can do up to 50,000 before I have to send the meter another trigger, and this will interrupt the measurement flow.  My question is how do you work around this?  You can set trigger:count to inifinity, but it is not clear to me how to utilize this.

Ah, so you need the DMM to continuously acquire readings, and in the background transfer data to your PC.  In a blog post mentioned earlier Continuous Measurements with a 34461A Digital Multimeter the author writes:

"DATA:REM? X, WAIT - This command tells the DMM to take an X number of readings from its reading buffer and send them to the PC. If the number of readings is not available then the WAIT parameter tells the DMM to wait until they are available before sending it over. This command and R? are the the most efficient reading commands for the DMM to process.

These commands are also supported on the 34410A and 34411A...."

So, DATA:REM? X, WAIT may do what you want, but I don't know if it's supported on 34401A.
 
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Offline alex.forencich

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #212 on: April 01, 2014, 08:32:14 am »
Is there any to get the meter to take an arbitrary number of samples separated by the trigger delay, without any time-dependent intervention by the control software?

Yes, there is.  From the 34461A users guide (p 255):

TRIGger:DELay  Sets the delay between the trigger signal and the first measurement. This may be useful in applications where you want to allow the input to settle before taking a measurement or for pacing a burst of measurements.

Also see: SAMPle:COUNt  and  TRIGger:COUNt

Yes, but this is limited to the maximum SAMPLE:COUNT setting.  If I want to take an arbitrary number (say 100,000,000) measurements, how do I do that?  On my 34401A, I can do up to 50,000 before I have to send the meter another trigger, and this will interrupt the measurement flow.  My question is how do you work around this?  You can set trigger:count to inifinity, but it is not clear to me how to utilize this.

Ah, so you need the DMM to continuously acquire readings, and in the background transfer data to your PC.  In a blog post mentioned earlier Continuous Measurements with a 34461A Digital Multimeter the author writes:

"DATA:REM? X, WAIT - This command tells the DMM to take an X number of readings from its reading buffer and send them to the PC. If the number of readings is not available then the WAIT parameter tells the DMM to wait until they are available before sending it over. This command and R? are the the most efficient reading commands for the DMM to process.

These commands are also supported on the 34410A and 34411A...."

So, DATA:REM? X, WAIT may do what you want, but I don't know if it's supported on 34401A.

The issue is not transferring the measurements, it is taking them in the first place. 

If I want to take 1 measurement every second for a week (1.2 million samples), all I need to do is write a script to trigger every measurement and then read it out.  With some careful coding and a computer that reports times to a sufficient resolution, this works well. 

If I want to take 100 measurements per second for 10 seconds (1000 samples), I can configure the meter to do that with the samples:count seting and the trigger:delay setting, trigger it once, and stream out all of the samples so the memory does not overflow.  Not too bad. 

However, if I want to take 100 measurements per second for two weeks  (120 million samples), I cannot configure the meter to do this as it requires more samples than I can set samples:count to.  Nor can I trigger each sample reliably because the triggers from the control computer would have too much jitter.  It would be possible to do with a function generator set to 100 Hz connected to the trigger input, but this should not be necessary as the meter is perfectly capable of timing its own samples with trigger:delay.  Also, if I set the unit to take samples in blocks of some size, say 10,000 samples, then every 10,000 samples there will be a 'jump' in the timebase when the unit needs to be re-triggered for the next block, again due to the jitter from the control computer.  See what I am getting at here? 

The ideal solution would be to set samples:count to infinity.  But none of the meters allow this.  So, what is the workaround?  How do you capture very long records with a reasonable sample rate (>> 1 Sa/s) with a jitter-free timebase?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 09:00:43 am by alex.forencich »
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #213 on: April 01, 2014, 08:58:29 am »
However, if I want to take 1000 measurements per second for two weeks, I cannot configure the meter to do this as it requires more samples than I can set samples:count to.  Nor can I trigger each sample reliably.  It would be possible to do with a function generator set to 100 Hz connected to the trigger input, but this should not be necessary.  Also, if I set the unit to take samples in blocks of some size, say 10,000 samples, then every 10,000 samples there will be a 'jump' in the timebase when the unit needs to be re-triggered for the next block.  My question is: how do you do this without an external trigger source?

Sorry for side-tracking your question; you stated the issue clearly enough in the beginning but I hadn't got the subtlety of the matter. 

Your question is a good one, but to what extend could Agilent (or any manufacturer) reasonably provide a mechanism to do this?  To illustrate with an even more extreme example, what if you wanted to acquire 1k readings per second for the next 20 years, without an external trigger.

How would you design for it?  Can you describe what kinds of settings or parameters would be needed?  Whatever your requirements, it may not satisfy the next guy.

I can't think of a solution to what you want to achieve.

Edit: After reading your edits, my comments above are also a bit side tracked.... sorry!  In the end it is quite simple question, and your suggestion "samples:count to infinity" would seem a perfect solution (good thinking!).  The only need is a command to terminate the sampling when you wish to do so.  I wonder why no manufacturer has done that?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 09:08:55 am by Sparky »
 
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Offline alex.forencich

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #214 on: April 01, 2014, 09:13:32 am »
However, if I want to take 1000 measurements per second for two weeks, I cannot configure the meter to do this as it requires more samples than I can set samples:count to.  Nor can I trigger each sample reliably.  It would be possible to do with a function generator set to 100 Hz connected to the trigger input, but this should not be necessary.  Also, if I set the unit to take samples in blocks of some size, say 10,000 samples, then every 10,000 samples there will be a 'jump' in the timebase when the unit needs to be re-triggered for the next block.  My question is: how do you do this without an external trigger source?

Sorry for side-tracking your question; you stated the issue clearly enough in the beginning but I hadn't got the subtlety of the matter. 

Your question is a good one, but to what extend could Agilent (or any manufacturer) reasonably provide a mechanism to do this?  To illustrate with an even more extreme example, what if you wanted to acquire 1k readings per second for the next 20 years, without an external trigger.

How would you design for it?  Can you describe what kinds of settings or parameters would be needed?  Whatever your requirements, it may not satisfy the next guy.

I can't think of a solution to what you want to achieve.

Edit: Your suggestion "samples:count to infinity" would seem practical (good thinking!), and then just some way to terminate it.  I wonder why no manufacturer has done that?

What really puzzles me is that you can set trigger:count to infinite, but not sample:count.  A remote interface clear will get the instrument out of the 'wait for trigger' state.  There is no technical reason that I know of that sample:count is restricted. 

The only reason I ask is because I am putting together a Python script for logging off of my 34401A as an example of how you can use Python IVI, and I want to make it as generic as possible, perhaps even just 'log at rate x until cancelled'.  Having a limit of 50,000 samples or whatever seems rather arbitrary, so I thought I would ask and see if there were any known solutions. 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 09:21:33 am by alex.forencich »
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Offline macboy

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #215 on: April 01, 2014, 01:05:49 pm »
...
However, if I want to take 100 measurements per second for two weeks  (120 million samples), I cannot configure the meter to do this as it requires more samples than I can set samples:count to.  Nor can I trigger each sample reliably because the triggers from the control computer would have too much jitter.  It would be possible to do with a function generator set to 100 Hz connected to the trigger input, but this should not be necessary as the meter is perfectly capable of timing its own samples with trigger:delay.  Also, if I set the unit to take samples in blocks of some size, say 10,000 samples, then every 10,000 samples there will be a 'jump' in the timebase when the unit needs to be re-triggered for the next block, again due to the jitter from the control computer.  See what I am getting at here? 

The ideal solution would be to set samples:count to infinity.  But none of the meters allow this.  So, what is the workaround?  How do you capture very long records with a reasonable sample rate (>> 1 Sa/s) with a jitter-free timebase?
Why assume that the  trigger needs to come from the PC? Can't you just set the measurement trigger to "immediate" (TRIGger:SOURce IMMediate)? As soon as one 10000-sample measurement is complete, it should start taking another.... am I dreaming? If I am, then accept my appoligies. I don't have a Agilent meter, I am a Keithley user.
 
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #216 on: April 01, 2014, 04:13:28 pm »
I tried to use the IO trace thingy that comes with the NI software, but it seems like it is not logging everything, if I run commands like IDN etc, it's logged, and it logs something when benchvue is trying to connect to my meter (which mostly always fail with an exception)
Isn't agilent's software using these drivers maybe?, going right to socket? (I got two meters listed when I added my meter in the VISA setup)
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #217 on: April 01, 2014, 06:53:13 pm »
Doesn't this code explain for you how to use it.... (earlier in this thread)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-agilent-34461a-6-5-digit-bench-multimeter/msg265426/#msg265426

« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 06:55:21 pm by KedasProbe »
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Offline TVman

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #218 on: April 01, 2014, 09:13:04 pm »
That is AWESOME!!!  :) ;) :D ;D ::) :-+ :-+ :clap:
Yeah, I play Minecraft!
But I'm on here more because I learn more. :D
 
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Offline alex.forencich

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #219 on: April 05, 2014, 01:55:59 am »
...
However, if I want to take 100 measurements per second for two weeks  (120 million samples), I cannot configure the meter to do this as it requires more samples than I can set samples:count to.  Nor can I trigger each sample reliably because the triggers from the control computer would have too much jitter.  It would be possible to do with a function generator set to 100 Hz connected to the trigger input, but this should not be necessary as the meter is perfectly capable of timing its own samples with trigger:delay.  Also, if I set the unit to take samples in blocks of some size, say 10,000 samples, then every 10,000 samples there will be a 'jump' in the timebase when the unit needs to be re-triggered for the next block, again due to the jitter from the control computer.  See what I am getting at here? 

The ideal solution would be to set samples:count to infinity.  But none of the meters allow this.  So, what is the workaround?  How do you capture very long records with a reasonable sample rate (>> 1 Sa/s) with a jitter-free timebase?
Why assume that the  trigger needs to come from the PC? Can't you just set the measurement trigger to "immediate" (TRIGger:SOURce IMMediate)? As soon as one 10000-sample measurement is complete, it should start taking another.... am I dreaming? If I am, then accept my appoligies. I don't have a Agilent meter, I am a Keithley user.

Good point.  This looks like it should work.  Not sure how I missed that before.  However: after some poking around on my 34401A meter, it seems that it is not possible to use this mode for arbitrary length captures.  It seems that the 34401A firmware does not allow reading out measurements while in the wait-for-trigger state.  The 'fetch' call can only return the entire memory content of up to 512 samples after the acquisition is complete, and all of the samples to collect must fit into this memory.  Also, the meter will not enter the wait-for-trigger state if the settings can capture more than 512 data points, failing with an 'insufficient memory' error. 

Why would this meter allow a selection of 50,000 samples or 50,000 or infinite triggers even though it will fail with an insufficient memory error if the product of these is greater than 512 with any trigger source?  Is it even possible to use the infinite trigger count mode on the 34401A?
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #220 on: April 25, 2014, 12:50:11 pm »
It is documented in the user guide.
My DM3068 only has the fastest one 0.006 on a higher speed but that's logical since you want to give the same max speed of 10000hz  for 50hz and 60hz users.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 12:51:56 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #221 on: April 25, 2014, 03:59:12 pm »
Maybe it's easier if you just set the integration time instead of PLC ratio.
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #222 on: April 28, 2014, 01:33:02 pm »
Are you sure?: (from manual)
Quote
Aperture mode. Aperture is the period, measured in seconds, during which
the multimeter’s analog–to–digital (A/D) converter samples the input signal
for a measurement. A longer aperture yields better resolution; a shorter
aperture provides for faster measurements. This mode allows the user to set a
specific integration time, not based on power–line frequency. Values range
from 100 µs to 1 second for the 34410A, and from 20 µs to 1 second for the
34411A/L4411A.
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline dp

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #223 on: May 15, 2014, 05:33:52 pm »
Hi,

There is something I don't understand about this DMM: why is it rated 6.5 digit? With ranges of 0.1 - 1 - 10 - 100  there is no way it can provide that "half" digit, it can display only 6 digits, no matter what value it displays. To be 6.5 digit the ranges should be 0.2 - 2 - 20 - 200, so that you get 7 digits when reading values between 1 and 2 (on the 2 range) and 6 digits for lower values (as in the case of, say, Rigol DM3068).

What am I missing?
 
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Offline HKJ

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #224 on: May 15, 2014, 05:43:59 pm »
why is it rated 6.5 digit? With ranges of 0.1 - 1 - 10 - 100  there is no way it can provide that "half" digit, it can display only 6 digits

That is fairly common for high end DMM, the 6½ digit only means that it can show slightly above 6 digit, i.e. 1200000 is enough.
Anyway, the actual precision is not high enough that it really matters.

 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #225 on: May 15, 2014, 06:32:12 pm »
Seeing/getting that extra digit does matter for me (at 100PLC), I will decide what is useful and what isn't: see example:
The exported csv of the DM3068 is giving what the 34461A is displaying (the left column)
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Offline Zucca

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #226 on: July 25, 2014, 11:17:35 pm »
Just discovered a new FW 1.10 released on the 2014-06-20, seems like a minor update

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-536902435.1058513&id=2367633

in attachment the release note... so a failed SELF TEST 34461a unit with FW 1.09, could be easily fixed by the FW 1.10? Ebay buyer be aware!  O0
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 11:23:26 pm by zucca »
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Offline VK5RC

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #227 on: July 26, 2014, 01:17:11 am »
Doesn't the update fix the current potential problem  of a false report of failed ac offset testing ie not failed ,  but from the update a repeat test would declare if a true fault existed? 
eBay buyers may get a bargain of a 'as is'  failed self test 344601, then  update the f-ware and have an on specification machine! 
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #228 on: July 26, 2014, 09:22:41 am »
Interresting that Agilent doesn't bother to send out info about new firmware or other software revisions at all, especially since I have registered my unit on their site..  :(
 
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Offline engineer_in_shorts

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #229 on: July 26, 2014, 09:25:55 am »
Interresting that Agilent doesn't bother to send out info about new firmware or other software revisions at all, especially since I have registered my unit on their site..  :(

Stops them being bombarded with support questions following unnecessary upgrades... a lot of customers may not be affected/require the update.
 
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Offline BVH

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #230 on: August 01, 2014, 05:30:20 pm »
I’ve been looking at specs and video reviews on 6 ½ digit DMMs for the last 4 days.  I don’t “need” a 6.5 digit meter but I am very interested in electrical and electronics and I “want” one.  Some background.  I’m 61, retired and my most enjoyable hobby is finding, acquiring and repairing older 1960’s – 1980’s vintage military long-range Short Arc searchlights and modern day aviation Short Arc searchlights.   These lights produce laser-like beams down to 1 degree and project that beam for 2+ miles – much further than the unaided eye can see.  As such, I do some basic troubleshooting, parts testing and replacement and re-wiring on the lights themselves and on the short arc power supplies including their 35KV to 45KV ignition systems.  I also enjoy finding “for parts” variable DC power supplies and trying to repair them.

I want a bench meter capable of absolute 3-decimal place accuracy.  When performing the posted accuracy calculation for the Fluke 8846A and the Agilent 34461A, my net results show that even when using the 1-year maximum error percentage factors, the result will not impact the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Decimal digits.   Is this correct?

I’ve tentatively narrowed my search to the Fluke 8846A, the Agilent 34410A or the 34461A.  From what I can see, the Fluke is capable of a bit better accuracy over the Agilent 34461A but I love the tft screen on the Agilent and if it can give me that guaranteed 3-place accuracy, then I would lean towards that meter.  The software for the Agilent units also seems to be much more user-friendly and feature-rich when used on a PC.

I’m guessing that any of these units would be very much overkill for my novice needs but all the same, I would appreciate thoughts and opinions as I enjoy hearing what others with much more experience have to say.  Thank you in advance.
 
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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #231 on: August 01, 2014, 06:55:10 pm »
I am a BIG 8846A fanboy and IF you need the extra ppms and ranges/features it provides you will be very happy.

But I suggest you buy the 34461A because the user interface, graphing/charting capabilities and software are much nicer than the 8846A.

I am very glad I bought a 8846A but my second meter would be a 34461A. That is until Keithley comes out with their new 6.5 digit meter with a interface similar to the 2450 SMU 8)
 
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Offline BVH

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #232 on: August 01, 2014, 07:37:23 pm »
Will the Keithley be out any time soon and are its specs supposed to be similar to the Fluke or Agilent?  Any links to speculation threads?

Being a novice, I certainly know the Fluke and HP Agilent names but am not familiar with Keithley.  I assume it's on the same level (subject to differing personal opinions, of course)?

Is price point going to be similar?
 
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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #233 on: August 01, 2014, 07:46:41 pm »
No idea on the time frame but I am pretty sure it is being worked on as we speak.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #234 on: August 01, 2014, 10:38:37 pm »
Is the 2x4 wire resistance measurement system that Fluke touts unique to their meters or can the Agilent do the same using the Fluke 2x4 special lead set?
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #235 on: August 02, 2014, 02:36:39 am »
AFIK it is a Fluke only feature.
 
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Offline engineer_in_shorts

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #236 on: August 02, 2014, 06:20:21 am »
Is the 2x4 wire resistance measurement system that Fluke touts unique to their meters or can the Agilent do the same using the Fluke 2x4 special lead set?

2x4 wire resistance is only a feature to try and reduce the clutter on your desk by having a lead set that can do voltage measurements as well as 4 wire resistance measurements.  Personally i do not like the idea as you have to purchase specially made 4 wire leads from fluke.  I prefer to make my own test harnesses most of the time.
 
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Offline engineer_in_shorts

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #237 on: August 02, 2014, 06:38:55 am »

I want a bench meter capable of absolute 3-decimal place accuracy.  When performing the posted accuracy calculation for the Fluke 8846A and the Agilent 34461A, my net results show that even when using the 1-year maximum error percentage factors, the result will not impact the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Decimal digits.   Is this correct?


Numbers of decimal digits is hard to give an answer for since we do not know how big the values are you are measuring.  At hundreds of volts you have three digits before the decimal place!
Usually the places to watch out (lowest accuracy) are AC voltage on extremes of the frequency range, and AC current.  For example the Agilent (now keysight  ::)) AC voltage above 100kHz is 4%.

Also understand the difference between resolution, the manufacturer stated accuracy, and the total uncertainty of measurement.

This is a good read:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-4879EN.pdf

and same from fluke
http://support.fluke.com/calibration-sales/Download/Asset/2547797_6200_ENG_A_W.PDF
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #238 on: August 02, 2014, 08:05:01 am »
Is price point going to be similar?

It would have to be to compete, but Keithley have never been in that game of chasing the bottom market.
Agilent were very aggressive on the pricing for the 34461A, and I wouldn't expect Keithley to match it.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #239 on: August 02, 2014, 04:24:01 pm »
Quote
Numbers of decimal digits is hard to give an answer for since we do not know how big the values are you are measuring.  At hundreds of volts you have three digits before the decimal place!
Usually the places to watch out (lowest accuracy) are AC voltage on extremes of the frequency range, and AC current.  For example the Agilent (now keysight  ::)) AC voltage above 100kHz is 4%.

Also understand the difference between resolution, the manufacturer stated accuracy, and the total uncertainty of measurement.

This is a good read:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-4879EN.pdf

and same from fluke
http://support.fluke.com/calibration-sales/Download/Asset/2547797_6200_ENG_A_W.PDF

Good points.  98% or more of my work is with 36 VDC & below and 100 Amps & below (I have other meters for the Amps work).  With Series configured batteries and their balanced charging systems, I get into double-digit mAh measurements.  I think I have a good handle on accuracy and resolution.  Resolution being the number of places to the right of the Decimal a meter can resolve down to and accuracy being how much higher and lower the true measurement can be as compared to the display reading.  I'll go have a read at the links.  Thanks.

I'm not in a real hurry but I am excited to get something to work/play with.  Paying a few hundred bucks more is not a huge barrier for this purchase so if the Keithley was a month or two out and near the cost of the Fluke 8846A, I could probably control myself long enough to see how its' specs, screen and PC software compare.  Is there any idea floating around in how far out it might be?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 04:25:52 pm by BVH »
 
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Offline Sparky

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #240 on: August 17, 2014, 04:19:55 pm »
As an update to earlier discussions about programs to continuously stream measurements from the 34461A to a PC, I updated and cleaned up some Agilent MATLAB scripts.  I've attached two files: one is the main script to setup the DMM and read out measurements, the other is a simple helper script to check the DMM for errors.

The code is set to read 100000 measurements, and it does so by reading 2000 sets of 50 measurements each.  On my PC, the MATLAB output is:

Code: [Select]
Data remaining  : 0
Time elapsed    : 90.909 sec
Acquisition rate: 1100.0006 samples/sec

Indicating the 100000 samples were acquired in just over 90 sec.

I might make a graphical interface with controls to adjust the # samples, etc.  If so, I'll post it here. 

Cheers!
 
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Offline rodpp

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #241 on: August 29, 2014, 12:00:34 am »
As an update to earlier discussions about programs to continuously stream measurements from the 34461A to a PC, I updated and cleaned up some Agilent MATLAB scripts.  I've attached two files: one is the main script to setup the DMM and read out measurements, the other is a simple helper script to check the DMM for errors.

The code is set to read 100000 measurements, and it does so by reading 2000 sets of 50 measurements each.  On my PC, the MATLAB output is:

Code: [Select]
Data remaining  : 0
Time elapsed    : 90.909 sec
Acquisition rate: 1100.0006 samples/sec

Indicating the 100000 samples were acquired in just over 90 sec.

I might make a graphical interface with controls to adjust the # samples, etc.  If so, I'll post it here. 

Cheers!

Thank you for share your work.

It is helpful to have a code example from start, it will be very useful.

Here is the result in my computer:

Code: [Select]
Data remaining  : 0
Time elapsed    : 90.8939 sec
Acquisition rate: 1100.1841 samples/sec
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 12:03:27 am by rodpp »
 
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Offline Sparky

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #242 on: August 29, 2014, 05:31:32 am »
Thank you for share your work.

It is helpful to have a code example from start, it will be very useful.

Here is the result in my computer:

Code: [Select]
Data remaining  : 0
Time elapsed    : 90.8939 sec
Acquisition rate: 1100.1841 samples/sec

Thank you for the comment rodpp!  I'm glad to know someone was able to use the MATLAB code -- I hope it proves a good starting point and easy to modify.  I am using the script often so I will probably make a GUI for it.

Cheers!
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #243 on: September 14, 2014, 04:24:03 pm »
Can my 34461A measure the Internal Resistance of my Lithium Polymer RC battery cells using my 4-wire Kelvin probes without being damaged by the approximate 4.2 VDC contained in the cells?  Typical resistance in good cells is between 1.5 and 5.0 mOhms.
 
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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #244 on: September 15, 2014, 04:43:55 am »
Can my 34461A measure the Internal Resistance of my Lithium Polymer RC battery cells using my 4-wire Kelvin probes without being damaged by the approximate 4.2 VDC contained in the cells?  Typical resistance in good cells is between 1.5 and 5.0 mOhms.

Why not use the 4 wire leads on an external current shunt? 
 
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Offline MarkPalmer

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #245 on: September 15, 2014, 01:52:52 pm »
I see everyone in the TE business is jumping on the color TFT bandwagon in very short order for just about everything.  Reason being the displays are just so nice and pleasant to read!  I got my first one on an Applent LCR meter and after using it I don’t like other antiquated displays too much, especially monochrome LCD’s. (Ok, still a place in heart for nixies and red LED’s..)  But I never cared for those green VFD’s- they remind me too much of 1970’s Unisonic calculators and after a few years, they all start to get dim.     

-Mark-
 
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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #246 on: September 16, 2014, 06:51:14 pm »
I see everyone in the TE business is jumping on the color TFT bandwagon in very short order for just about everything.  Reason being the displays are just so nice and pleasant to read!  I got my first one on an Applent LCR meter and after using it I don’t like other antiquated displays too much, especially monochrome LCD’s. (Ok, still a place in heart for nixies and red LED’s..)  But I never cared for those green VFD’s- they remind me too much of 1970’s Unisonic calculators and after a few years, they all start to get dim.     

-Mark-

I can sum up the 34461A display in a word: brilliant. I read all the nonsense and angst over the meter here. Any worries about the meter only matter on the internet. In person, it's just fantastic and the display is a huge improvement. I love the charting feature. I just wish that it would save directly to the USB stick and time stamp the readings. Those are minor gripes for something so well executed.

By the way, when I ordered, disty was backordered 2 months. It's very popular. I had to get one just because the pair of 34401s I had in my work lab were so useful.
 
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Offline BVH

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #247 on: October 04, 2014, 08:15:31 pm »
Yesterday, I was making up some #4 AWG cables for one of my tank lights.  It's a soldered joint.  For this size cable, I use a micro torch because my 50 watt Hakko station just doesn't cut it.  I filled the contact solder cup with just the right amount of solder.  I then used a bit of liquid flux on the bare cable and used my homemade solder pot to tin the 5/8" length of bare cable.  With the contact in my vice squeezed by wood blocks, I re-heated the contact cup and slowly dipped the tinned cable into the cup - and kept the torch on the contact for about 5 seconds to allow the cable to heat up properly.   

I've never had a quality Ohm meter so I've never tested any of my joints.  So I tested this one using the 2-wire probes.  I was surprised and disappointed to see 0.033 Ohms measured from a bit of bare cable behind the joint and the contact rubbing surface - about 1 1/2" total length.  I was in Auto Scale and Auto Zero.   I thought about this last night and was feeling pretty bad about my soldering abilities.  Today, I remembered that I didn't do a "zeroing" of the probes before I took my measurements.  So I fired up the meter, punched in 2-wire Ohms and put the probes together and got a .030 reading.  I then realized I didn't know how to zero the meter. So I thought that the Null function might do the trick.  I went through this and ended up getting .0000 when the probes were touched together.  Then I measured my joint but this time, including 9' of cable and got a between 0.009 and 0.010 Ohms.  But I really don't know if the Null function is what I should be doing or if the "Auto Zero" function is already taking care of zeroing the meter.  But if so, then why do I get 0.030 when touching the probes together?

I tried reading about this in the manual but just can't seem to understand what the below paragraph from the manual is telling me.

Step 5: Specify whether you want to use Auto Zero. Autozero provides the most accurate measurements, but
requires additional time to perform the zero measurement. Note that there is no autozero setting for 4-wire resistance
measurements.
With autozero enabled, the DMM internally measures the offset following each measurement. It then subtracts that
measurement from the preceding reading. This prevents offset voltages present on the DMM’s input circuitry from
affecting measurement accuracy. With autozero disabled, the DMM measures the offset once and subtracts the offset
from all subsequent measurements. The DMM takes a new offset measurement each time you change the function,
range, or integration time.


Can someone tell me the proper setup and procedure to take a 2-wire Ohm measurement with this meter?  Maybe with and without Auto Zero enabled?
 
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Offline Rufus

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #248 on: October 04, 2014, 08:25:20 pm »
Can someone tell me the proper setup and procedure to take a 2-wire Ohm measurement with this meter?  Maybe with and without Auto Zero enabled?

The auto zero is compensating for errors in the meter internal circuitry, nothing to do with external measurements you are making.

2 wire Ohm measurement of a few milliohms is almost pointless. Read up on 4 wire measurements or for a chunky connection like that stick a few amps through it from a bench supply and probe the voltage across it. 
 
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Offline BVH

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #249 on: October 08, 2014, 04:53:48 am »
Got a set of Agilent 4-wire Kelvin leads and re-measured.  .009 Ohms - and this was with almost 10' of the #4 AWG cable in the measurement.  Much happier now.
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #250 on: October 26, 2014, 01:06:31 pm »
The auto zero is compensating for errors in the meter internal circuitry, nothing to do with external measurements you are making.

I think the auto zero also compensates for any external voltage offset, that might be in the circuit under test.

 
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Offline Hesam_a

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #251 on: November 19, 2014, 03:28:06 pm »
Is this unit a good replacement for HP 3457A?
Specifically in the case of  micro-Amp measurement.
I know HP 3457A can measure micron amps at  300.0000 u Amp Dc setting . the resolution at this setting is 100p Amp (6 1/2 digits)

Do you know if 34461A has the same capability?
 
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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #252 on: November 19, 2014, 03:58:54 pm »
34661A has a 100µA range
 
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Offline OldNeurons

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #253 on: May 26, 2015, 01:26:00 pm »
I opened my 34461A and found 2 capacitors with the top sides covered with something I believe is kapton tape ...
Any idea why they did that ?
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #254 on: May 26, 2015, 01:36:54 pm »
It is the same on the later models of the 34401A DMMs
It is probably done to protect the capacitors from excess heat during the reflow soldering process.

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Offline slurry

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #255 on: May 26, 2015, 02:31:48 pm »
I copy+paste from another thread i started in my hunt for my perfect benchtop multimeter, i bought the 34461A:

I learned that there was a new firmware for 34460a, 34461a, 34465a and 34470a released may 14th,
i promptly downloaded it and briefly read the release notes, now we can measure CAPACITORS!!!
there is a lot of small fixes and some new functions, the multimeter now boot in 30 seconds instead of 50, great!

 :clap: to Keysight and a big :-+


..but please tell me how to activate that particular function because i cant find it..  :o
here is a link to the release notes: http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Firmware_2.08_Release_Notes.pdf

Press shift-freq to activate capacitor measurement,
max selectable range is 100µF, i tried a Elna gold 470µF and it worked fine, but 1000µF did not.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 02:33:34 pm by slurry »
 
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Offline rosbuitre

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #256 on: May 26, 2015, 02:53:03 pm »
I copy+paste from another thread i started in my hunt for my perfect benchtop multimeter, i bought the 34461A:

I learned that there was a new firmware for 34460a, 34461a, 34465a and 34470a released may 14th,
i promptly downloaded it and briefly read the release notes, now we can measure CAPACITORS!!!
there is a lot of small fixes and some new functions, the multimeter now boot in 30 seconds instead of 50, great!

 :clap: to Keysight and a big :-+


..but please tell me how to activate that particular function because i cant find it..  :o
here is a link to the release notes: http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Firmware_2.08_Release_Notes.pdf

Press shift-freq to activate capacitor measurement,
max selectable range is 100µF, i tried a Elna gold 470µF and it worked fine, but 1000µF did not.

Hi
Measurement up to 100uF

Capacitance 1.0 nF to 100.0 uF

Regards
My instruments: DMM Keysight 34461A / Tektronix DMM916 / Fluke 12, Rigol DS1074Z, Deer DE-5000, Siglent SDG805 / SDP3303D, Dayton Dats2
 
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Offline VK5RC

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #257 on: May 27, 2015, 09:09:06 am »
Please see the link by OldNeurons (still firing well I think) re front panel reset, causes resting to incorrect PLC frequency in some countries, another update is coming.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/34461a-line-frequency-setting-wrong-after-front-panel-reset/msg667528/#msg667528
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 
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Offline rosbuitre

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #258 on: June 03, 2015, 03:26:25 pm »
New version of BenchVue Software, 2.7 in the keysight site  :-+

Regards

My instruments: DMM Keysight 34461A / Tektronix DMM916 / Fluke 12, Rigol DS1074Z, Deer DE-5000, Siglent SDG805 / SDP3303D, Dayton Dats2
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #259 on: June 03, 2015, 03:44:27 pm »
New version of BenchVue Software, 2.7 in the keysight site  :-+

Regards

Thanks for letting us know.
As far as I heard, Keysight fixed the bug without any other enhancements.
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Offline rosbuitre

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #260 on: September 30, 2015, 11:57:09 am »
Hi
Can anyone tell me if this Temperature Probe is compatible with my Keysight 34461A ?

https://www.openhacks.com/page/productos/id/153/title/Sensor-de-Temperatura-NTC-Impermeabilizado#lightbox[%27galeria%27]/2/

Regards
Osvaldo
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 01:47:57 pm by rosbuitre »
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Offline plesa

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #261 on: September 30, 2015, 05:00:55 pm »
I do not think it is compatible, 34461A has support for 5k thermistor only.
34410/34411 has suport for 10k thermistors.
Maybe you can ask for adding this thermistor into next FW.
 
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Offline rosbuitre

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #262 on: September 30, 2015, 09:08:58 pm »
I do not think it is compatible, 34461A has support for 5k thermistor only.
34410/34411 has suport for 10k thermistors.
Maybe you can ask for adding this thermistor into next FW.

Thank you  :-+
My instruments: DMM Keysight 34461A / Tektronix DMM916 / Fluke 12, Rigol DS1074Z, Deer DE-5000, Siglent SDG805 / SDP3303D, Dayton Dats2
 
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Offline rosbuitre

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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #264 on: October 15, 2015, 09:05:56 pm »
New version of BenchVue, 3.0
Regards
Nice find
officially to be released on 10-20-2015
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #265 on: January 06, 2016, 04:55:57 am »
Can anyone with the 34461A tell me if the continuity test has been improved with a software update at all since Dave's review of it? It wasn't terrible in the review but certainly doesn't look to match a Fluke 87V.
His test can be seen here:
VE7FM
 
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Offline rosbuitre

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #266 on: January 06, 2016, 09:09:34 am »
Hi
In my Keysight 34461A, the 2.09 version of FW worsened until it unusable in that function, worse than a DMM of  $10, waiting for months an update of FW to correct it.

Regards
My instruments: DMM Keysight 34461A / Tektronix DMM916 / Fluke 12, Rigol DS1074Z, Deer DE-5000, Siglent SDG805 / SDP3303D, Dayton Dats2
 
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #267 on: January 06, 2016, 11:05:55 am »
Well that is a real shame. Keysight get with it!!!
VE7FM
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #268 on: January 06, 2016, 11:18:02 am »
It seems the 34461A is constantly switching between an OHM measurement and beeping
The good thing, the 34470A does not have this problem
And not all 34461A's show this as badly. But nothing changed for me with the FW 2.09 update
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #269 on: January 06, 2016, 11:41:56 am »
I guess I'll be pondering it a while longer. I really want a good continuity beeper in my bench meter. I'd be selling my 34450A and Keithley 2001 to buy it and wouldn't want to be disappointed.
VE7FM
 
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Offline rosbuitre

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #270 on: January 06, 2016, 12:02:12 pm »
The 34461A is excellent, beautiful, pity that these things bother, I have to use my old Tek to measure continuity having the 34461A  in my workbench

Regards
My instruments: DMM Keysight 34461A / Tektronix DMM916 / Fluke 12, Rigol DS1074Z, Deer DE-5000, Siglent SDG805 / SDP3303D, Dayton Dats2
 
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Offline billfernandez

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #271 on: January 07, 2016, 02:22:17 am »
ON mine, continuity is detected with no perceptible delay.  But the beeper, instead of being on continuously, emits a staccato beeping with variable period.  Is that the issue you're talking about?
 
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #272 on: January 07, 2016, 08:10:05 am »
Wow, so the 34461A doesn't have dual display either?

Why is it my lower model 34450A can measure DC and AV volts at the same time, and various other combinations. It also has no fan and boots in 5 seconds. It is slow though in dual mode- especially in auto range. The green OLED display while boring is also amazing to look at.

My Keithley 2001 can also measure both and it throws in frequency too - at a reasonable sample rate.

Selling both to get a 34461A just doesn't seem logical even though the 34461A is a great looking machine.

It is a real shame, I think Keysight needs to throw in a few more features!

I guess I will keep looking for the ultimate(for me) bench DMM.

VE7FM
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #273 on: January 07, 2016, 08:23:22 am »
Wow, so the 34461A doesn't have dual display either?
Of course the 34461A has a dual display
Just push the "Display" button and then the "2nd Meas" softkey.

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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #274 on: January 07, 2016, 08:37:28 am »
Wow, so the 34461A doesn't have dual display either?
Of course the 34461A has a dual display
Just push the "Display" button and then the "2nd Meas" softkey.

Is this something they added in a software update? In Dave's video he specifically says it has no dual display capability.

edit - just reading the firmware release notes. It looks like they added "limited secondary measurements" in version 2.08.

Can anyone comment on how well it works to measure DC and AC at the same time such as you might want to use when probing a power supply in a piece of gear - does it have a decent update rate?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 08:40:54 am by TheSteve »
VE7FM
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #275 on: January 07, 2016, 10:12:08 am »
Yes, it was a software update, similar to the capacitance measurements, that was also updated with a new FW.

The dual display is not very well implemented.
For instance, if you measure DC Voltage and want to have the AC voltage as well on the second display it works with a delay, because it is switching a relay constantly between these two measurements.

This was much better implemented in the older 34410A and 34411A meters.

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Offline TiN

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #276 on: January 07, 2016, 10:28:39 am »
TheSteve just broke my Keithley-heart, trying to xchange warm fuzzy VFD-DMM to that pesky cold evil LCD thingy, called 34461.  :popcorn:
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #277 on: January 07, 2016, 11:24:13 am »
I still have my many 34401A and 34410A meters in use and just like to use them more over the 34461A for most day to day measurement jobs.

But probably the best feature of the 34461A, and one that I am using all the time is the trend chart for almost all functions.
Even for small changes, the trend chart immediately shows it visually, before we see it in the numbers.

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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #278 on: January 07, 2016, 05:45:56 pm »
TheSteve just broke my Keithley-heart, trying to xchange warm fuzzy VFD-DMM to that pesky cold evil LCD thingy, called 34461.  :popcorn:

Ahh, so the TiN man has a Keithley heart - better then no heart at all! :)

I haven't made up my mind yet, shame you can't go somewhere and try these things out.
VE7FM
 
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Online Dr. Frank

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #279 on: January 07, 2016, 06:44:13 pm »


I haven't made up my mind yet, shame you can't go somewhere and try these things out.

Shame on YOU, that you don't have a volt-nuts community in Canada?!

 
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Offline sotos

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #280 on: January 08, 2016, 08:36:15 am »
ON mine, continuity is detected with no perceptible delay.  But the beeper, instead of being on continuously, emits a staccato beeping with variable period.  Is that the issue you're talking about?

You mean something like this.


 
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Offline rosbuitre

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Offline sotos

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #282 on: January 08, 2016, 11:13:44 am »
New version of firmware

http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-536902435.1058513&id=2367633

Regards

There’s nothing in the release notes mentioning the beeper problem fixed.
 
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #283 on: January 08, 2016, 03:49:24 pm »
And it's released 11th january?, here in Norway it's still the 8th..
 
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Offline sotos

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #284 on: January 08, 2016, 09:53:49 pm »
And it's released 11th january?, here in Norway it's still the 8th..

Here too

 
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Offline billfernandez

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #285 on: January 09, 2016, 04:24:35 am »
ON mine, continuity is detected with no perceptible delay.  But the beeper, instead of being on continuously, emits a staccato beeping with variable period.  Is that the issue you're talking about?

You mean something like this.




Yes, like that.   I find it disturbing, since I associate the cessation of the beep with a loss of continuity, which I have often found to be very useful.  This is just annoying, and makes me distrust the continuity sensing.
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #286 on: January 09, 2016, 09:25:08 am »
Just don't use the 34461A for continuity measurements.

The good news: The 34470A does not have this problem.
The possible bad news: This could be hardware related and can not be fixed through FW updates.
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Offline sotos

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #287 on: January 09, 2016, 01:10:31 pm »
With Firmware, AGILENT V 1.10 its working fine, so I don’t think it’s a hardware problem. It gets messed up with Keysight updates.
 
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Offline rsivan

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #288 on: January 09, 2016, 08:15:45 pm »
Mine too have annoing beeper ,I did buy when still branded Agilent ,and with 1.10 Firmware was ok = "linear beep" not like now,this incredibile ,someone crazy like us making continuity test with professional bench dmm,just ordered Fluke 101 for 55€ shipped on ebay.de, and use for continuity test... very tiny and stay in  a pocket.
 
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #289 on: January 26, 2016, 06:54:38 am »
Has anyone had a go at finding the username/password for the 34461A telnet connection on port 5810?

Welcome to the Windows CE Telnet Service on K-34461A-14101

login:



edit: anyone have a link to download firmware 1.xx for the 34461A?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 07:05:42 am by TheSteve »
VE7FM
 
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Offline 6thimage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #290 on: January 26, 2016, 01:06:02 pm »
I have the 1.09, 1.10, 2.08 and 2.09 firmware files (NK.bin and build.xml - what the meter expects to find on the flash drive), but not the original update files. I'm not sure if you can get the old versions from the website (if so they will be on the firmware page), as I can't seem to get onto Keysight's website at the moment (503 errors).

I believe the username is 'Torreys', but I don't know of the password.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 01:08:06 pm by 6thimage »
 
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Offline plesa

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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #292 on: January 27, 2016, 09:36:03 am »
Awesome, thanks guys!
VE7FM
 
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Offline billfernandez

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #293 on: January 27, 2016, 10:24:51 am »
Just don't use the 34461A for continuity measurements.

Yes of course.  Instead of using my new, $1,000 meter that's right there on the bench, the one that's capable of so many modern features executed with precision, I can drag out my old 1983-era Fluke 8060A DMM, which has awesome continuity response, to provide this most pedestrian of functions.  Or wait, don't I still have a beeper lying around from my high school days...?
 
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Offline sotos

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #294 on: January 27, 2016, 12:54:41 pm »
Just don't use the 34461A for continuity measurements.

Yes of course.  Instead of using my new, $1,000 meter that's right there on the bench, the one that's capable of so many modern features executed with precision, I can drag out my old 1983-era Fluke 8060A DMM, which has awesome continuity response, to provide this most pedestrian of functions.  Or wait, don't I still have a beeper lying around from my high school days...?

You said it right.    :-+
 
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Offline OldNeurons

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #295 on: January 27, 2016, 04:50:25 pm »
1.10 and 1.09
http://www.filedropper.com/agt3446xareva0110
http://www.filedropper.com/agt3446xareva0109

Thanks for the files Plesa.

I downgraded my 34461A to v1.10 and confirm that continuity measurement works fine with this firmware.
So, for sure, this should not be a big deal for Keysight to fix that issue.
Does anyone here already reported to Keysight?
 
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Offline sotos

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #296 on: January 27, 2016, 05:14:36 pm »
1.10 and 1.09
http://www.filedropper.com/agt3446xareva0110
http://www.filedropper.com/agt3446xareva0109

Thanks for the files Plesa.

I downgraded my 34461A to v1.10 and confirm that continuity measurement works fine with this firmware.
So, for sure, this should not be a big deal for Keysight to fix that issue.
Does anyone here already reported to Keysight?

If they monitor their site it’s here. I wrote about it and the link with the problem at YouTube

http://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/thread.jspa?threadID=40301&tstart=0
 
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #297 on: January 27, 2016, 05:36:09 pm »
Yes, everyone who cares should reply in the thread on the Keysight forum. I will also be opened a case with Keysight directly, they need to put their big boy pants on and fix the problem.
VE7FM
 
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Offline sotos

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #298 on: January 27, 2016, 05:58:40 pm »
Yes, everyone who cares should reply in the thread on the Keysight forum. I will also be opened a case with Keysight directly, they need to put their big boy pants on and fix the problem.

 :-+
 
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #299 on: February 17, 2016, 10:59:21 pm »
As posted by user "jdwindrvr" on the Keysight support forum today:

The "stutter" in the beep that signals continuity has been resolved. The firmware (with the fix) is going through our regression and production tests.

Assuming no unexpected issues will be found, the next release should be available in approximately four weeks.
VE7FM
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #300 on: February 17, 2016, 11:26:03 pm »
Any other serious bugs they fixed? IMHO the continuity stutter is more like a cosmetic issue since the continuity beep on the 34461A is rather slow anyway.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online Dr. Frank

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #301 on: May 05, 2016, 08:00:48 am »
Firmware 2.14 has been released today.
This also should fix the continuity tone problem.
Please check that out.

Frank
 
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Offline LA7SJA

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #302 on: May 05, 2016, 08:40:06 am »
The "stutter" in the beep that signals continuity has NOT been resolved on my 34461A @ 2.14
It still has a periodic "shirp" sounds but it is much better sounding than with the 2.11 version. When/if I get over the disappointment I will try to make an recording of the instrument and scope trace of the audio.

Johan-Fredrik
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Offline nctnico

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #303 on: May 05, 2016, 10:26:20 am »
Any other improvements?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline 6thimage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #304 on: May 05, 2016, 12:34:00 pm »
The release notes are at http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Firmware_2.14_Release_Notes.pdf, but the listed changes for 2.14 are
Quote
34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A Revision 2.14 Enhancements and Fixes
1. Resolved a defect in the 34460A/34461A that caused an erratic rather than a consistent tone when continuity was detected using the continuity function.
2. Resolved a heater issue with the internal 10 M? divider that caused an accuracy shift of several PPM on the 100V and 500V ranges following an ACAL.
3. Optimized the firmware to eliminate potential race conditions internal to the instrument.
 
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #305 on: May 05, 2016, 10:16:32 pm »
The "stutter" in the beep that signals continuity has NOT been resolved on my 34461A @ 2.14
It still has a periodic "shirp" sounds but it is much better sounding than with the 2.11 version. When/if I get over the disappointment I will try to make an recording of the instrument and scope trace of the audio.

Johan-Fredrik

It's not perfect but I'd say it's "good enough" for most purposes now.  To me it sounds like it did with its original firmware, before the problem occurred.

They seem to be driving the piezo transducer with pulses generated by a microcontroller that has a lot of interrupt activity to deal with.  Given that, it won't ever be a perfectly clean tone, but it's much better than it was.
 
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #306 on: May 06, 2016, 03:30:15 am »
Firmware update done. I don't mind the action of the beeper at all, it is a million times better then it was. In fact it seems more responsive and reliable.

Is it just me or are they running the fan faster by default now?
VE7FM
 
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Offline LA7SJA

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #307 on: May 06, 2016, 04:12:19 am »
Quote
They seem to be driving the piezo transducer with pulses generated by a microcontroller that has a lot of interrupt activity to deal with.  Given that, it won't ever be a perfectly clean tone, but it's much better than it was.
Try to program a highspeed CW tone generator in Windows without the MultiMedia system |O. The sound is a high frequency switching type noise and I should try to stop it with a lowpass filter.

@VE7FM
I disagree with you, the new firmware is only 103 better not 106.

Johan-Fredrik
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Offline ytterligare

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #308 on: May 06, 2016, 10:08:58 pm »

Did the update 10 minutes ago...compared to my Fluke 289 the result is rather embarassing, no kidding.



 
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Offline ytterligare

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #309 on: May 06, 2016, 10:38:15 pm »

Ok, please forgive the shitty video quality...did throw a couple of quick&dirty test on both DMM ( better seen in full screen )

Keysight 34461a  fw 2.14:




Fluke 289 :



A.
 
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Offline D3f1ant

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #310 on: May 07, 2016, 12:29:08 am »
When I'm probing circuits for continuity I pretty much never just stab away at it randomly so don't care/notice how instantly it responds. The intermittent beeper was annoying, but it works fine now. Everybody uses stuff differently I guess.
 
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Offline bson

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #311 on: May 07, 2016, 02:49:28 am »
That could just be a little contact resistance on the Keysight probes combined with a slightly higher threshold resistance for the continuity beep.  Keysight DMM probes aren't the best.  Try it with the Fluke probes also.
 
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Offline ytterligare

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #312 on: May 07, 2016, 12:13:36 pm »
That could just be a little contact resistance on the Keysight probes combined with a slightly higher threshold resistance for the continuity beep.  Keysight DMM probes aren't the best.  Try it with the Fluke probes also.

You're probably right : here are the test with switched probes, and while the Fluke didn't particularly suffer by using KS' ones, the Keysight is really much better now with Fluke's ( apart from a "cold start" )....I was wondering during the developement of the fw, which probes did KS engineers used for that task.

Keysight with Fluke probes :




Fluke with Keysight probes :




Anyway, and this can't be seen on the videos, I clearly felt a kind of latency while testing KS Continuity...it's like it is buffering the response before giving back the result, and this might be consistent with what KE5FX was supposing : "They seem to be driving the piezo transducer with pulses generated by a microcontroller that has a lot of interrupt activity to deal with."
That latency is amost negligible in the Fluke.

A.
 
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Offline Svuppe

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #313 on: May 08, 2016, 10:30:51 am »
How do you even download the new firmware?
I can find it on keysight.com, but it asks me to login before downloading. No problem, I have an account..... But no. Once I enter my login details, I just end up in an endless redirection loop. And that happens all over keysight.com, so I can't even see their front page anymore. Same result with IE11, Chrome and from my android tablet.
 
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Offline D3f1ant

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #314 on: May 09, 2016, 05:44:38 am »
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 08:02:00 am by D3f1ant »
 
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Offline Svuppe

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #315 on: May 09, 2016, 08:03:46 am »
Finally managed to download it by using the "Firmware Update 2.14 for Non-Windows Operating Systems" link (and after clearing cookies to be able to see keysight.com again). The "non-windows" link does not need any login or other details before downloading.
 
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Offline SupraWez

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #316 on: June 04, 2016, 08:17:09 am »
Hello All,

I have a 34461A and never done a FW upgrade on it, its currently running 1.10 if I read it correctly.

Is it worth me upgrading and would the unit require re-calibration after the update?

Thanks  :-+
 
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Offline LA7SJA

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #317 on: June 04, 2016, 08:43:09 am »
First watch/listen to the videos from user ytterligare  and compare with your meter to see if the continuity sound on the new firmware is good enough.
Then read the combined release notes http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Firmware_2.14_Release_Notes.pdf and decide if you want to update or not.
No re-calibration should be required after the firmware upgrade.

Johan-Fredrik
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Online Dr. Frank

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #318 on: June 04, 2016, 08:45:49 am »
Hello All,

I have a 34461A and never done a FW upgrade on it, its currently running 1.10 if I read it correctly.

Is it worth me upgrading and would the unit require re-calibration after the update?

Thanks  :-+

FW updates do not harm the calibration at all! No re-calibration required, of course not.

There's a long list of bugs being fixed, see release notes 2.14.

Especially the beeper problem on 34460/461A instruments annoyed many users.

This update also enables Capacitance measurement.

So, an update is highly recommended.

Frank
 
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Keysight 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #319 on: March 28, 2017, 06:55:59 am »
Just noticed this manual addendum for the 34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A series, it was released a few days ago.
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/34460-90902.pdf?id=2848666

The maximum allowable measured voltage has been updated to:

DC 600 volts (was 1000)
AC 440 volts (was 750)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 06:58:55 am by TheSteve »
VE7FM
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keysight 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #320 on: March 28, 2017, 07:38:42 am »

The maximum allowable measured voltage has been updated to:
DC 600 volts (was 1000)
AC 440 volts (was 750)

That sounds more like an April fools joke
What happened to the compatibility to the 34401A?

Hmm, Keysight must have found some weak spots and instead of changing the parts they are changing the datasheet
Unreal!
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Offline 0xfede

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #321 on: March 28, 2017, 07:45:30 am »
Thanks TheSteve for pointing out that. I'm wondering why I still haven't received that notice too (I own a 34465).
If this is true that's a major limitation for an instrument advertised for 1000VDC and 750VAC. These values are printed on the front panel too.
I'm very disappointed.

Best,
0xfede
Semel in anno licet insanire.
 
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Online Dr. Frank

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #322 on: March 28, 2017, 08:01:00 am »
Obviously, that's not a joke.
The changed specification is also present prominently on the KS product site, and our German distributor DataTec already has an updated full data sheet with the reduced max. voltages.

Keysight does not have that updated, full datasheet, yet. There's the addendum only. Very strange.

Did some safety standards (norms) change recently, or did they really find a weakness for the input circuitry?

Anyhow, it's not ok, that owners were not informed directly.

Frank
 
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Online Alex Nikitin

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #323 on: March 28, 2017, 08:10:59 am »
From the notice:

Quote
Input values exceeding the maximum allowable measured voltage of 600 VDC or
440 VAC could, over the lifetime of the product, result in damage to the
instrument.

There should be a very good reason to issue an update like this. Most likely they have some actual failures in the field with multimeters working at high voltages for a prolonged time.

Cheers

Alex
 
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Offline 0xfede

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #324 on: March 28, 2017, 08:37:52 am »
The document clearly say damage so it must be an hardware problem, not safety.
Yet still cannot figure out how this is supposed to be my problem when it is their fault.
And I'm wondering how the other fellow on the forum reacts if a lower end brand (Rigol, Siglent and so on) do the same.

This is not HP/Agilent/Keysight.
And of course this is not professional, at all.
Semel in anno licet insanire.
 
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Online Alex Nikitin

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #325 on: March 28, 2017, 09:47:51 am »
As this issue affects not just the 34461A and has some far-reaching implications, I've started a separate thread.

Cheers

Alex
 
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Offline carl_lab

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« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 08:35:13 pm by carl_lab »
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #327 on: March 30, 2017, 08:01:48 pm »
Wow, that's a very bad joke... :palm:
34461A/465A were announced to be successor of 34401A/410A... >:(

If that's true, our company probably won't buy these Keysight DMMs any more.

I will continue calibrating them at 1000 VDC as originally specified, because we received no call-back nor other official info about reduced spec.
If some of them die, I'll send them for warranty-replacement... :horse:

Seriously, there is no real alternative for those who measure close to 1000 V DC
Especially, as you said, this is a plug in replacement for the older models, which are no longer in production.

What about all those people who have software written for these instruments, you can not just switch to another brand.
And even if you wanted to do that, what do you get that has the features of the 34461A?


 
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Offline Keysight Technologies Rep

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #328 on: April 01, 2017, 04:52:59 pm »
Thanks to those on this EEV blog thread for the dialog about a standards compliance issue with Keysight Technologies’ 3446XA and 34470A digital multimeters. Your conversation reinforces Keysight’s commitment to address this issue to the satisfaction of our customers. We apologize if this has inconvenienced any of our customers, and acknowledge that this response is coming later than some would have hoped. 
 
What we have determined
While the product was initially rated at a maximum input value of 1000VDC/750VAC, this has been reduced to 600 VDC/440VAC to allow a component to operate within its rated values. There is no change in the Measurement Category II rating of 300V. The change in the maximum rated input voltage is to ensure the product meets requirements of the IEC61010 standards. Most importantly, there are no safety concerns related to this change.
 
Failure risk very low, no safety risk
The products maintain their performance accuracy, and no failures have been observed up to 1000VDC. While there is the possibility of component failure in using the products above 600 VDC/440VAC, there are no safety risks. Further, there have been no known component-related reliability failures since shipment of these products started in 2013.
 
Confidence in product reliability
These products continue to be covered by Keysight’s three-year standard warranty, and effective immediately, we will provide an additional one-year warranty extension to ensure customers can depend on our products.
 
Next steps
Keysight has begun redesigning the 3446XA and 34470A digital multimeters to reinstate the original maximum input ratings of 1000VDC/750VAC. We have set a goal to ship the redesigned products by December of 2017, and will make every effort to begin shipment sooner than that.
 
For more information about the steps Keysight is taking to address this issue, we have posted a service note on the company’s website. To view the service note, navigate to Keysight’s website, https://servicenotes.literature.keysight.com/litapp/SearchSN.do?method=openExternalSNSearch&prodNum= and type in product number 34461A-04. Any customers who require 1000VDC/750VAC testing capabilities can contact a Keysight Customer Contact Center and reference the service note number.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #329 on: July 01, 2018, 11:53:08 pm »
I just received an e-mail about this service note:
literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/34461A-06.pdf

It says 34461A with serial numbers: MY53220037 – MY57210852 may have excessive drift.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #330 on: July 02, 2018, 01:14:45 am »
I just received an e-mail about this service note:
literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/34461A-06.pdf

It says 34461A with serial numbers: MY53220037 – MY57210852 may have excessive drift.

Checked mine the other day, still good on DCV to the last count.
VE7FM
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #331 on: August 08, 2018, 09:41:47 am »
I just received an e-mail about this service note:
literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/34461A-06.pdf

It says 34461A with serial numbers: MY53220037 – MY57210852 may have excessive drift.

Having not checked in a while, I notice there is also service note 34461A-05 "Keysight 34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A Digital Multimeter with firmware version below “FW 2.17” may experience ACV out of specification.

This appears to be relatively easy to check without opening the unit but does require a service centre repair to fix.

As to service note 34461A-06 "Units may exhibit an accelerated DCV drift rate which exceeds the 90-days or 1-year product specification within 2 weeks of usage.", as there is no mention of units with more than one year of service, I'm guessing a calibration would be required and any fault found repaired at cost rather than a replacement unit as per the service note?

34461A Service notes:
https://servicenotes.literature.keysight.com/litapp/SearchSN.do?method=openExternalSNSearch&prodNum=34461A

Cheers
Andrew
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #332 on: August 08, 2018, 10:57:01 am »
I just received an e-mail about this service note:
literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/34461A-06.pdf

It says 34461A with serial numbers: MY53220037 – MY57210852 may have excessive drift.
I have three of the 34461A and they are all good.
I am actually very happy with the 34461A, even after a few years in service, they are very stable and reliable.
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Offline Andrew

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #333 on: August 08, 2018, 02:49:34 pm »
Prior to running some checks for the two most recent service notes, I checked the "Help"/ "About" screen for the latest firmware version (2.17) and noticed an extra option under SEC as:

AVG - Enable AC average measurements - not installed

Must have missed that...nothing in the release notes or on any of the website pages for 3446xA options.

...and yes the 34461A is a great dmm and the only problem with owning "one" is the missing "second one" or... ;D
 

Offline Messtechniker

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #334 on: August 09, 2018, 04:20:47 pm »
AVG - Enable AC average measurements - not installed

Also applies to the 34465A. Just checked. :phew:
Agilent 34465A, Siglent SDG 2042X, Hameg HMO1022, R&S HMC 8043, Peaktech 2025A, Voltcraft VC 940, M-Audio Audiophile 192, R&S Psophometer UPGR, 3 Transistor Testers, DL4JAL Transistor Curve Tracer, UT622E LCR meter
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #335 on: August 09, 2018, 06:49:50 pm »
The AVG update has been showing up since one of the last firmware updates.
Interestingly, it is not even listed in the latest brochure on the Keysight website

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Offline JonM

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #336 on: August 10, 2018, 04:05:19 am »
I believe that AVG is a special option to meet some US Government requirement and is not generally available. This was mentioned in another thread, a while ago.
 
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Offline Andrew

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #337 on: December 11, 2018, 09:17:20 am »
New firmware release v3.0 for 3446xA/34470A

Release notes: https://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-11143.0.00

Of interest to me is: "Adds 2-wire and 4-wire support for 2.25 kΩ and 10 kΩ thermistors in addition to 5 kΩ thermistors." :-+

... and probably of more interest to 34465A/70A owners: "Beginning with Firmware revision 3.0, the digitizing and advanced triggering option (34465A-DIG/34470A-DIG/3446DIGU), is now standard" - time to upgrade?  ;D

« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 09:19:39 am by Andrew »
 
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Offline ppeterl

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #338 on: December 11, 2018, 09:54:58 am »
Well just a note - the download for non-windows ("Firmware Update for Non-Windows Operating Systems") still links to the old version 2.17. So need launch the VM again... was a couple a years ago, so update bonanza - here we go!

Don't you just hate it when they still require Windows? 2018?
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #339 on: December 11, 2018, 09:58:35 am »

Of interest to me is: "Adds 2-wire and 4-wire support for 2.25 kΩ and 10 kΩ thermistors in addition to 5 kΩ thermistors." :-+

Thanks for letting us know about the new FW.

I have been waiting for this thermistor range update for a long time.
Especially since the 34410A had these options already.



Quote
... and probably of more interest to 34465A/70A owners: "Beginning with Firmware revision 3.0, the digitizing and advanced triggering option (34465A-DIG/34470A-DIG/3446DIGU), is now standard" - time to upgrade?  ;D
Too bad, I bought the options for my instruments already.
I did not see this one coming.
Nice of Keysight to include them now. Probaly because they are standard in the Keithley meters.
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #340 on: December 14, 2018, 01:52:08 am »
Playing with the html5 remote interface. Can't help but notice the image they used for the 34461A is an older rev without capacitance marked on the front panel.
VE7FM
 


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