New ANENG multimeter

[Fungus]

Quite predictable really but ANENG has another meter!

It has three mA ranges (6mA, 60Ma, 600mA), it has uA, it has temperature, it has MIN/MAX, it has REL, it's True RMS, it does frequency up to 20Mhz (with duty cycle!), Ohms up to 60M, etc.

It even has a CAT IV 600V rating! (what could go wrong?)

Downsides: Only 6000 counts, no uV range (but hey, you all just bought AN8008s for that).

I paid $20 for one.

I'll keep the model number secret for a while. I still didn't get my AN8008 so I don't think it's unfair to get a head start on this one.



What could Dave possibly fault on this meter? Will he be forced to admit a $20 meter is good?

(Dave: PM me if you want the model number to search for one)

[Mark Hennessy]

It looks suspiciously like the one I reviewed here: http://golbornevintageradio.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?tid=5501&pid=69789#pid69789

Sorry if that gives the game away 

[ebastler]

I'll keep the model number secret for a while. I still didn't get my AN8008 so I don't think it's unfair to get a head start on this one
...
(Dave: PM me if you want the model number to search for one)

Is it just me, or is this behaviour rather childish?

[kalel]

I think I saw that one somewhere.

Anyway, what's the difference with AN8002? I see a few more buttons.
Would those be the main differences?

[kalel]

I'll keep the model number secret for a while. I still didn't get my AN8008 so I don't think it's unfair to get a head start on this one
...
(Dave: PM me if you want the model number to search for one)

Is it just me, or is this behaviour rather childish?

I think he was quite happy to get an AN8008, and then a lot of people received it before he did, including those that ordered after.
It's always a gamble with shipping times, but if you are impatient and looking forward to something, you can get a bit annoyed if it "never comes".

Oh well, just my interpretation.

[MrW0lf]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/aneng-an860b-multimeter/

[Fungus]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/aneng-an860b-multimeter/

Nope.

[MrW0lf]

Ok so its not out yet? But how it's better than 860B+? B+ lists "600uA/6000uA/60mA/600mA/10A". How 6mA better than 6000uA? Internal resistor different?

[ebastler]

Ok so its not out yet? But how it's better than 860B+? B+ lists "600uA/6000uA/60mA/600mA/10A". How 6mA better than 6000uA? Internal resistor different?

It's only the real thing if it has the Fungus-special "60 Ma" range.

Come on, MrW0lf, let's stop posting facts and trying to burst his bubble... 

[alm]

It has three mA ranges (6mA, 60Ma, 600mA), [...]

60 mega amperes ???

It even has a CAT IV 600V rating! (what could go wrong?)

Now I am convinced that they have been reading this forum and are just trolling us !

[Fungus]

How 6mA better than 6000uA? Internal resistor different?

I never said it's better than that one.

Dave's main complaints with the AN8008 were lack of mA, lack of REL, etc. This has them all for $20 (and so does the 860B+, apparently).

It also has temperature, which the AN8008 doesn't.

It has three mA ranges (6mA, 60Ma, 600mA), [...]

60 mega amperes ???

Yes, that is a strange gap in the scale now you mention it. 

[plazma]

Quite predictable really but ANENG has another meter!

It has three mA ranges (6mA, 60Ma, 600mA), it has uA, it has temperature, it has MIN/MAX, it has REL, it's True RMS, it does frequency up to 20Mhz (with duty cycle!), Ohms up to 60M, etc.

It even has a CAT IV 600V rating! (what could go wrong?)

Downsides: Only 6000 counts, no uV range (but hey, you all just bought AN8008s for that).

I paid $20 for one.

I'll keep the model number secret for a while. I still didn't get my AN8008 so I don't think it's unfair to get a head start on this one.



What could Dave possibly fault on this meter? Will he be forced to admit a $20 meter is good?

(Dave: PM me if you want the model number to search for one)

The photo is of the AN860B+ model.

[ebastler]

The photo is of the AN860B+ model.

Indeed, down to the last twist in the test leads:
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/ANENG-6000-counts-LCD-Digital-Multimeter-DMM-with-NCV-Detector-DC-AC-Voltage-Current-Meter-Resistance/32799992769.html

[stj]

it looks a lot bigger.

the good thing about the 8002/8008 is it fits in your pocket or glove box.
if your going to get a bigger meter then there are dozens to pick from.

[Fungus]

it looks a lot bigger.

the good thing about the 8002/8008 is it fits in your pocket or glove box.
if your going to get a bigger meter then there are dozens to pick from.

If you want something small you can get the ANENG mini. It's about the size of a credit card.

https://es.aliexpress.com/store/product/ANENG-Mini-Digital-Multimeter-with-Buzzer-Overload-protection-Pocket-Voltage-Ampere-Ohm-Meter-DC-AC-LCD/919484_32810069923.html?spm=a219c.12010608.0.0.fbAsFU

[joeqsmith]

Just another cheap meter.  I actually liked the 8002 for the features and size. 

But like it's marked on the front, it is rated for 20A.   
https://youtu.be/4PjmFqzlfLc?t=2689

[EEVblog]

1000V CATIII and 600V CAT IV
If you believe that then I've got a bridge to sell you.

[joeqsmith]

Worse is that problem with switching it between AC and DC modes with a biased AC signal.  That stupid meter at times can't read the AC value.  Strange and it deserved to die a horrible death being released with a bug like that!

Personally, I would much rather have your little Brymen.  I have a friend who just bought one and wrote to tell me how happy he was with it. 

[edavid]

Worse is that problem with switching it between AC and DC modes with a biased AC signal.  That stupid meter at times can't read the AC value.  Strange and it deserved to die a horrible death being released with a bug like that!

Isn't that fixed in the 860B+ version?

[floobydust]

Does it just have a 9.999MEG top resistance range like the AN8008/ZT109? The AN8002 I think has a 60MEG top range.

It looks like the same 9,999 count DMM IC with all the features utilized.

[edavid]

Does it just have a 9.999MEG top resistance range like the AN8008/ZT109? The AN8002 I think has a 60MEG top range.

AN860B+ has a 60Mohm range.

[Fungus]

Oh, all right. I confess, it's an AN860B+. Just having some fun.

It does seem a much better "first multimeter" than either the AN8002 or AN8008 though. I don't know why it hasn't had all the meter-fever that those two have had. Is it really just because it isn't compact?

It also answers all of Dave's criticisms of the AN8008. It has the mA ranges, it has REL, etc. It even has temperature, MIN/MAX and a good frequency counter.

I expect ANENG is reading this and will launch a compact model with those features (especially since Dave's video on the AN8008). The AN860B+ is mostly air inside so it shouldn' tbe too difficult to reduce it.

PS: It looks like at least a few of you bought the story for a few seconds. 

[ebastler]

[embarrassed silence]

[joeqsmith]

Worse is that problem with switching it between AC and DC modes with a biased AC signal.  That stupid meter at times can't read the AC value.  Strange and it deserved to die a horrible death being released with a bug like that!

Isn't that fixed in the 860B+ version?

I believe what I looked at was the 860B+.  I have no idea what this meter is or if it has the same problem.  Fungus would have to test it.   

Fungus, if you do decide to see if this problem is present on yours, keep in mind that it did not do it every time with the meter I had.  It did seem like a design problem.  It may be good to know if it is reproducible so at least others could be made aware of it.

[MrW0lf]

The AN860B+ is mostly air inside so it shouldn' tbe too difficult to reduce it.

Hydraulic Press Channel dude would reduce it to quite pocketable size

[alm]

All that air is necessary to meet the clearance necessary for CAT IV 600 V .

[tszaboo]

It even has a CAT IV 600V rating! (what could go wrong?)

I bet it has a 0603 fuse for that 20A range.
It would be quite hilarious to plug the thing into 1000V of mains in that range. If you stand really far away.

[mstck]

Oh, all right. I confess, it's an AN860B+. Just having some fun.

It does seem a much better "first multimeter" than either the AN8002 or AN8008 though. I don't know why it hasn't had all the meter-fever that those two have had. Is it really just because it isn't compact?

It also answers all of Dave's criticisms of the AN8008. It has the mA ranges, it has REL, etc. It even has temperature, MIN/MAX and a good frequency counter.

I expect ANENG is reading this and will launch a compact model with those features (especially since Dave's video on the AN8008). The AN860B+ is mostly air inside so it shouldn' tbe too difficult to reduce it.

PS: It looks like at least a few of you bought the story for a few seconds. 

Fungus,  I note that you posted a picture  in the other thread ( https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/an8008-us-$19-10000count-1uv-0-01ua-0-01ohm-resolution-meter/msg1268081/#msg1268081 ) of the AN850B+ not the 860B+, are they different meters? If so, can you help me with the differences. I am looking to acquire one for my bench.  I do not propose to use it in any high energy circuits, I have other fully rated meters for that purpose.

[Rbastler]

This looks better than the AN8008 indeed. But still nothing I would recommend to a beginner. Wy ? Because you can get Fluke 25/75/etc or even Fluke 27 for around 25-40€ on ebay. It takes some time to find one, but so does the Aneng meter from China, if you order it there without fast shipping.
I don't think its good for beginners to buy cheap Chinese stuff. Because it's more likely to fail (I had some meters around that price range, some time after I begun with electronics that failed), or get inaccurate without any reason. Beginners may not understand that its not their fault and they could stop working with electronics.
I know that, because I was there. Luckily I did some research, and found out I wasn't the fault. That was a long time ago. Therefore I would suggest you take a look at the MS8340A. Which I still consider cheap, but better than a Aneng meter.

[Fungus]

Fungus,  I note that you posted a picture  in the other thread ( https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/an8008-us-$19-10000count-1uv-0-01ua-0-01ohm-resolution-meter/msg1268081/#msg1268081 ) of the AN850B+ not the 860B+

Did I? Ooops... 

are they different meters?

Yes.

If so, can you help me with the differences.

I can try.

Does anything seem different if you look at pictures of them...?



 

[mstck]

My bad.  Only took a cursory glance at the two units. Thanks.

[Fungus]

My bad.  Only took a cursory glance at the two units. Thanks.

Glad I could help. 

The 860B+ looks like quite a good meter. Much better than any of the AN800X series in terms of feature set.

The AN8001 seems like a miniature version of the 850B+ (same features on the front panel).

I wonder if they're working on a miniature 860B+? Let's hope so - that would be an awesome meter for $20! 

[RGB255_0_0]

It's like they're making prototypes and releasing then for production.

But this one seems good. Would pick it over a Uni-T.

[Fungus]

It's like they're making prototypes and releasing then for production.

Maybe they're being smart.

They keep releasing meters with missing features but everybody buys them anyway because, well, they're worth having.

Now if they release a mini AN860B+ a lot of people will buy it because it's the meter they were really after when they bought their AN8001s/AN8002s/AN8008s.

(I know I would...  )

Result: A whole load of people who bought two (or even three) meters just to get the one meter they really wanted. It's marketing genius.

(well, not genius - there's plenty of precedents)

[EEVblog]

Does anything seem different if you look at pictures of them...?

 

Nothing a drill can't fix 
If you were that desperate of course.

[floobydust]

It's the bullshit safety claims that are the problem 

Printed in the product manual "Safety Specifications EN61010-1:2010; EN61326-1:2013, FCC Part 15 Subpart B:2016"
On the multimeter front it says "Cat. III/1000V and Cat. IV/600V."

ANENG, please provide the Certificate of Conformance for any of this.

This would be criminal if done by any other manufacturer in any other nation but china.

[floobydust]

I don't think VW is similar- they spoofed environmental not safety.
Low-dollar chinese DMM manufacturers need to stop making fake 61010 claims.
I know FCC does not allow stuff into the USA with fake Part 15 claims or logo, and when the shipments got rejected the chinese then obtained proper certs.

This new ANENG meter is physically larger than others so has a better chance at decent spacings.

[amspire]

It's the bullshit safety claims that are the problem 

Printed in the product manual "Safety Specifications EN61010-1:2010; EN61326-1:2013, FCC Part 15 Subpart B:2016"
On the multimeter front it says "Cat. III/1000V and Cat. IV/600V."

ANENG, please provide the Certificate of Conformance for any of this.

This would be criminal if done by any other manufacturer in any other nation but china.

I do not know about the AN8008 and the 860B but there are actually certificates for the ZOTEK ZT101 and ZT102 which are the ANENG 8001 and ANENG 8002:

[Rbastler]

I don't think its good for beginners to buy cheap Chinese stuff. Because it's more likely to fail (I had some meters around that price range, some time after I begun with electronics that failed), or get inaccurate without any reason. Beginners may not understand that its not their fault and they could stop working with electronics.

Note:
This is not meant to be a personal criticism of the poster I quoted. It just prompted me to respond to a general issue I see.

If a meter from China is cheap, why is it cheap? Because it was made with cheap labour, lacks expensive safety components, didn't undergo expensive (?) safety testing, comes with low cost probes, doesn't have a shock absorbant outer casing and is sold in a bubble wrapped package? Or some other reason.  But where is the failure point that makes it so likely to fail quickly? What makes it get inaccurate all of a sudden? Lets make this discussion useful if we are going to have it.

I grow irritated with listening to forum posters regurgitate the same personal opinions without actually going beyond that point.

There is a very personal decision each of us make when choosing to purchase something "good enough". We've all bought stuff that wasn't and learned from it. If forum discussions are going to save others from our mistakes they have to go the extra bit beyond saying it is cheap and Chinese and should be avoided. No-one learns anything from that.

You made a good point and made me think about how I could improve my arguments.
And dont worry about offending/criticizing some one. This is positive critisism, that allows others to rethink. If somebody gets offendet by such posts.... well.....

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[Electro Detective]

I can easily think of an object or two to wipe down with those 'certificates'
before hitting the Flush button

I can envisage an entire courtroom conducting a Tactical Facepalm 
upon seeing these 'certificates' presented as evidence for the Defence
(after a giggle or three at a peek of the Chinglish manual)

Many of the members at this post can afford and own many good meters,

why litter the sacred workbench and professional toolbox with these suss toys?   

[Rbastler]

I can easily think of an object or two to wipe down with those 'certificates'
before hitting the Flush button

I can envisage an entire courtroom conducting Tactical Facepalms
upon seeing these 'certificates' presented as evidence for the Defence
(after a giggle or three after a gander at the Chinglish manual)

Many of the members at this post can afford and own many good meters,

why litter the sacred workbench and professional toolbox with these suss toys?   

Could it be couriosity ? Too see personally if such a meter can be good for a specific purpose ?
Cheap stuff can have a kind of attraction. Atleast what i noticed over the years...

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[Electro Detective]

Cheap Stuff Curiosity usually impacts wages on the poor oppressed workforce overseas to keep up with 'demand',
I don't want to be actively participating to that if I can help it.

If I can't afford a decent $100+ meter this week, then it'll have to wait for next week or month,
after evaluating if I really need it
and how much actual use it will get if or after the initial novelty dwindles,

..and it's back to Flukes and other decent meters with GENUINE Certification, 

not copy/paste BS printouts on the cheapest paper

[Fungus]

If a meter from China is cheap, why is it cheap? Because it was made with cheap labour, lacks expensive safety components, didn't undergo expensive (?) safety testing, comes with low cost probes, doesn't have a shock absorbant outer casing and is sold in a bubble wrapped package?

Yes.

Or some other reason.  But where is the failure point that makes it so likely to fail quickly? What makes it get inaccurate all of a sudden? Lets make this discussion useful if we are going to have it.

There can be mechanical failures due to weak input jacks, etc. The probes on most DT830Bs are made with a loose wire going down a tube and soldered to the metal tip. The wires can move around a lot inside the tube and they break off easily. Some people put hot glue in the top of the tube to prevent this.



These ANENG meters are a big step up from DT830B level though. I see no reason why one won't give many years of service on a hobbyist bench.

[Fungus]

Many of the members at this post can afford and own many good meters,

Yep.

why litter the sacred workbench and professional toolbox with these suss toys?   

(sigh)

a) One meter isn't enough for all possible readings.

b) They want one to leave in the truck, one to leave in the garage, one to take to Arduino club, one for when the zombies attack...

Should all those secondary meters cost $500, too?

[MrW0lf]

one for when the zombies attack...

For zombie attack U1282A much better than these soap boxes

[Rbastler]

one for when the zombies attack...

For zombie attack U1282A much better than these soap boxes [emoji14]

There needs to be a Fluke 25 or similar melee weapon mod for L4D2

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[Fungus]

For zombie attack U1282A much better than these soap boxes [emoji14]

There needs to be a Fluke 25 or similar melee weapon mod for L4D2

I think you just need good strong test leads to tie it to a stick.

[kalel]

There can be mechanical failures due to weak input jacks, etc. The probes on most DT830Bs are made with a loose wire going down a tube and soldered to the metal tip. The wires can move around a lot inside the tube and they break off easily. Some people put hot glue in the top of the tube to prevent this.

The point is absolutely correct, but I think in the image is the mini analog multimeter probe. It's a bit different than what I got with the DT830D, and might be even thinner. I'm not sure how well it's crimped/soldered at the end, so I just didn't want to risk finding out once it breaks. At least the contact jacks are on the right place (directly on PCB), while on DT830D (and some Aneng I guess) they are not. Everything else is hmm with that meter. The white spots on the PCB (whatever they are) come as a free extra.

[floobydust]

I looked at the two ZT102/AN8002  Certificate of Conformance.
The 61010 Certificate of Conformance is for low voltage 3V    death by AA battery
There are always loopholes to fudge claims and again, fake safety claims are what I prefer to rant about.

The FCC Part 15B I could not find Information of Grant, Report R011611815E, File number AT011611815E, FCC ID, accreditation of Anbotek in the FCC database. It's not as important as the multimeter does not transmit RF, but still looking shady.

Stumbled onto recent FCC approval for a multimeter DT9660T. Uses Bluetooth 2.4GHz.
It looks like proper approvals have been obtained for it, decent manual and immunity testing.
 

[Electro Detective]

Many of the members at this post can afford and own many good meters,

Yep.

why litter the sacred workbench and professional toolbox with these suss toys?   

(sigh)

a) One meter isn't enough for all possible readings.

b) They want one to leave in the truck, one to leave in the garage, one to take to Arduino club, one for when the zombies attack...

Should all those secondary meters cost $500, too?

My comment re spending $100+   doesn't mean $500  (well it sort of might, if you score a used $500 meter for $100+ )


When the zombies come down hard and the AK is empty,

you'll need a Fluke 1520 and 289 as backup, 

after they eat all those ANENGs... 

[kalel]

I'm thinking about one of those, hopefully not the wrong choice:



Even with 8008 out there, I think this one might be more beneficial as a general purpose electronics meter. Mostly those functions at the top (the 4 buttons), otherwise I see no difference from AN8002.

[ebastler]

I'm thinking about one of those, hopefully not the wrong choice:
...
Mostly those functions at the top (the 4 buttons), otherwise I see no difference from AN8002.

Looks like a rebadge of the AN860B+, discussed on the previous page of this thread.
When comparing it to the AN8002, you are aware of the size difference, right?

[kalel]

I'm thinking about one of those, hopefully not the wrong choice:
...
Mostly those functions at the top (the 4 buttons), otherwise I see no difference from AN8002.

Looks like a rebadge of the AN860B+, discussed on the previous page of this thread.
When comparing it to the AN8002, you are aware of the size difference, right?

Yes I think it is the same meter too, I just shared my thoughts vs the other models.
I don't know the exact sizes, but I do know that this one is larger than AN8002/AN8008.
I focus more on the features vs price, larger or smaller is not that important for me (unless it's so small that is difficult to use, or so large it takes too much space). Well, at least for right now as the main meter.
As I don't have any meter that offers min/max / rel, it might be good to have one that does.

Inside/PCB wise, I don't know which is better.

[Fungus]

I'm thinking about one of those, hopefully not the wrong choice:

Are they much cheaper? Why not get the original ANENG model?

Even with 8008 out there, I think this one might be more beneficial as a general purpose electronics meter.

Definitely a better all-round meter. The 8008's strong point is microvolts/nanoamps, the rest of the features are worse than this meter.

Mostly those functions at the top (the 4 buttons), otherwise I see no difference from AN8002.

It's a lot bigger.

[kalel]

Are they much cheaper? Why not get the original ANENG model?

I did find a better price, but do you think there is any difference?

[Fungus]

do you think there is any difference?

Probably not, just the big yellow logo. I'd pay an extra $1 for it, but... 

[kalel]

do you think there is any difference?

Probably not, just the big yellow logo. I'd pay an extra $1 for it, but... 

At least the model name is easier to remember. Should be the same meter inside.

[kalel]

I decided to get it. The price was good, and the meter seems possibly the best choice among AN8002/8008. It's to be my main meter, so I'm thinking differently than those buying a secondary meter, where maybe smaller is an extra advantage. Perhaps it is, but I prefer having the min/max/rel options.

[PA4TIM]

 I bought it (8002) only for fun. It is a nice toy and tuns out to be one of the better toy meters. It was spot-on but the question is, how much will it drift over short and long time.

A Aneng would not be usable for me as first meter, but maybe it is for you

[kalel]

I bought it (8002) only for fun. It is a nice toy and tuns out to be one of the better toy meters. It was spot-on but the question is, how much will it drift over short and long time.

A Aneng would not be usable for me as first meter, but maybe it is for you

It should serve my uses, I'm not an advanced user.

[Fungus]

I bought it (8002) only for fun. It is a nice toy and tuns out to be one of the better toy meters. It was spot-on but the question is, how much will it drift over short and long time.

Probably close to zero.

Drift happens to devices that get hot and bake the insides, devices where electrolytic capacitors can affect the readings, devices that use trimmer pots for calibration, etc.

None of that applies to an AN8002 used at home.

[rsjsouza]

A glance at the certificates of conformity do not reveal anything out of the ordinary for a meter (the 3V/400mA rating is for the meter's power supply, not the test voltages) but the remark on the EU cert is what differs this from a certification mark from Intertek/UL/TUV: the certificate does not imply continuous evaluation of the manufacturer - thus subsequent production runs will not be tested. Knowing how quality tends to be spotty among some manufacturers, this does not guarantee the meter you received is the same that was tested.

(edit) the FCC is only for non intentional irradiation emissions. It does not have anything to do with safety.

[floobydust]

A glance at the certificates of conformity do not reveal anything out of the ordinary for a meter ...

It is out of the ordinary, and a lie for the use-case scenario.
The DMM 61010 certificate is for a 3V appliance. Claiming overvoltage categories, adding a "double-insulated" mark on the back, its all bullshit.
A common way to fake regulatory is to omit the expected dangerous (situations) use of a product.

Fake FCC is a problem more so with products that generate RF i.e. Bluetooth or Wifi.
See the ESP8266 fiasco. US Customs will halt product entry. Not a safety thing, but we were talking fake approvals.

[rsjsouza]

A glance at the certificates of conformity do not reveal anything out of the ordinary for a meter ...

It is out of the ordinary, and a lie for the use-case scenario.
The DMM 61010 certificate is for a 3V appliance. Claiming overvoltage categories, adding a "double-insulated" mark on the back, its all bullshit.

The certificate shows the rating of the product in the "Identification" subsection, thus it will be the equipment power supply, not the conditions under test. The conditions under test are described below in the certificate (which are a bit scant, I must admit) but are better shown  in another document called the Technical File, but that is rarely disclosed publicly.

If you want to look at other examples of certificates just search around for Fluke compliance certificates and you will see some examples such as:

http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/28IIEx__1beng0000.pdf

[Mr. Scram]

why litter the sacred workbench and professional toolbox with these suss toys?   

Having more than one multimeter is obviously useful is you want to take simultaneous readings, or double check a strange reading.

Pretending that more expensive western products do not contribute to the exploitation of the Chinese work force seems, well, hopeful. We all remember the fairly recent story of the high suicide rates amongst Apple/Foxconn employees. If one buys devices built in a factory with safety netting around it, something might be up. Apple certainly is not the only guilty party here. We all like to soothe our conscience by paying more, but the reality is that any extra money is unlikely to reach the actual workers. Not to mention some resources upon which our devices depend which are almost exclusively mined in conflict areas, often in conflict because of that mining.

I would love to have the workers that build my devices live like kings by paying a premium of a few dollars for each product. The way the world is, that just doesn't work.

[tooki]

Pretending that more expensive western products do not contribute to the exploitation of the Chinese work force seems, well, hopeful. We all remember the fairly recent story of the high suicide rates amongst Apple/Foxconn employees. If one buys devices built in a factory with safety netting around it, something might be up. Apple certainly is not the only guilty party here.

Aside from not being "recent" at all -- the media hubbub was back in 2010 -- the facts of the situation are almost diametrically opposite of how the media portrayed it. It was reported as being a rash of suicides, but in fact, the suicide rate among Foxconn employees (none were Apple employees) was substantially lower than that of the Chinese population as a whole! (In its worst year, Foxconn's suicide rate was less than 2/3 that of the general population.)

In reality, the main reason that this non-story became a story was to bash Apple, which Apple haters love to do (since they don't understand why Apple is successful, and remain angry that they are proven wrong over and over again). The media knew that any story about Apple will get clicks, the more sensationalist the better.

Yet in the case of suppliers, Apple is by far the most responsible major company. It performs regular on-the-ground audits of its entire supply chain, and a common comment auditors hear from the suppliers' employees is "no other client does this". While there is undoubtedly room for improvement in working conditions at suppliers, no other major electronics company comes even close to Apple. (Look for Apple's annual supplier responsibility report, it's always a fascinating read.)

[Mr. Scram]

Aside from not being "recent" at all -- the media hubbub was back in 2010 -- the facts of the situation are almost diametrically opposite of how the media portrayed it. It was reported as being a rash of suicides, but in fact, the suicide rate among Foxconn employees (none were Apple employees) was substantially lower than that of the Chinese population as a whole! (In its worst year, Foxconn's suicide rate was less than 2/3 that of the general population.)

In reality, the main reason that this non-story became a story was to bash Apple, which Apple haters love to do (since they don't understand why Apple is successful, and remain angry that they are proven wrong over and over again). The media knew that any story about Apple will get clicks, the more sensationalist the better.

Yet in the case of suppliers, Apple is by far the most responsible major company. It performs regular on-the-ground audits of its entire supply chain, and a common comment auditors hear from the suppliers' employees is "no other client does this". While there is undoubtedly room for improvement in working conditions at suppliers, no other major electronics company comes even close to Apple. (Look for Apple's annual supplier responsibility report, it's always a fascinating read.)

Knee-jerk reaction ahoy! Let's not make this an Apple discussion. Foxconn assembles hardware for many large electronics companies, but is in turn part of a  much bigger story. Apple was merely used as an example due to the recent media attention. I call it recent, because it's recent enough to probably still be relevant to manufacturing conditions today.

I am not interested in discussing whether Apple or Foxconn treat their workers better or worse than other manufacturers. What I do know is that workers work long days of 12 hours, have mindless repetitive tasks to perform, work mandatory overtime if required, generally live on campus with 8 people to a room and do not have much of a life outside of their single repetitive task. Personally, I feel treating people as cheap meat robots is not ideal and how I would like the people making my hardware to be treated. It does, however, illustrate that spending a lot on a product does not necessarily mean that working conditions are what you'd hope.

Regardless, this is all hopelessly off-topic.

[bitseeker]

The best/worst thing (depending on your viewpoint) about the plethora of inexpensive DMMs with various features and colors is that they're hard to resist collecting just for fun (gotta catch 'em all). So far, I've been able to resist, but now I'm thinking about a use case for one.

The other day I was at a surplus components warehouse and happened upon some <5 Ohm power resistors that I wanted to check before buying. Unfortunately, the only thing I had in my pocket at the time was an el cheapo CEM DMM (a.k.a., free HF meter). Although the CEM is small and OK for quick low-power measurements, the low quality and high impedance of the probes/leads made it useless for measuring these resistors. Yeah, I know, but the U1252B, U1272A, and U1282A require much larger pockets.

How well do the small ANENG models (with either fixed or removable probes) perform at measuring single-digit resistances?

[mikeys]

[snip]

The other day I was at a surplus components warehouse and happened upon some <5 Ohm power resistors that I wanted to check before buying. Unfortunately, the only thing I had in my pocket at the time was an el cheapo CEM DMM (a.k.a., free HF meter). Although the CEM is small and OK for quick low-power measurements, the low quality and high impedance of the probes/leads made it useless for measuring these resistors.

I've got an amprobe PM55 that sits in my bag for the odd use. Got it pretty cheap, would probably buy the 53 or 51 if I was going to do it again 'cos I'm never going to use the amps range on a little meter like this. UL listed, cat 2 600v cat 3 300v, Brymen OEM. Brymen are selling them under their own brand now aswell but I'm not sure of the model numbers. In the pouch it's about the size of an iphone 5 but a touch wider. Out of the case it's significantly smaller. I'll check single digits resistance for you tomorrow, but if you're gunna drop ~£20 on a portable meter I'd recommend one of the lower end models than an aneng, simply for UL listing.

[evava]

The other day I was at a surplus components warehouse and happened upon some <5 Ohm power resistors that I wanted to check before buying. Unfortunately, the only thing I had in my pocket at the time was an el cheapo CEM DMM (a.k.a., free HF meter). Although the CEM is small and OK for quick low-power measurements, the low quality and high impedance of the probes/leads made it useless for measuring these resistors. Yeah, I know, but the U1252B, U1272A, and U1282A require much larger pockets.

How well do the small ANENG models (with either fixed or removable probes) perform at measuring single-digit resistances?

Yes, as you can see in the picture, small Aneng AN8008 is very usable in this regard.
Result:
( 1 ohm 5% 1% (bought cheaply from ebay) metallic resistor )
Fluke 289:  0.985 Ohm
Fluke 87V:  1.00 Ohm
UT61e: 0.98 Ohm
AN8008: 0.98 Ohm

Very happy with small Aneng in this regard!

Notes:
Meters after REL (except of AN8008 - does not have that button, you have to deduct for yourself), all measurements were performed deliberately with AN8008 leads.
REL was checked even after measurement for sure.
Fluke 289: needs at least 1 minute settling on LowOhm range, then stable reading, seldom jumps 1count.
Fluke 87V (HiRes): very unstable, jumps +- 2 counts, I chose the smallest value, LSD never gets still.
UT61e: very fast, no need to wait long for settling, then stable reading, seldom jumps 1count.
AN8008: need to wait half minute for settling, then little bit unstable LSD jumps +-1count, but much better than Fluke 87V.

[mikeys]

My Aneng arrived in the post today so here's a quick test

With two 10ohm in parallel,

Aneng 8008: 5.07
Amprobe PM55: 3.01
Brymen BM233: 5.1

With three,

Aneng 8008: 3.40
Amprobe PM55: 1.40
Brymen BM233: 3.4

Well, turns out my meter is crap at this particular task 

Get the aneng. I had to suck up a few solder balls and rework a couple of joints but it seems like a pretty good meter for low resistance measurements

[Fungus]

Get the aneng. I had to suck up a few solder balls and rework a couple of joints but it seems like a pretty good meter for low resistance measurements

Don't you need a 'REL' button for low resistance measurements? 

[ebastler]

Notes:
Meters after REL (except of AN8008 - does not have that button, you have to deduct for yourself

Don't you need a 'REL' button for low resistance measurements? 

 

As pointed out (and illustrated photographically) by evava, you need to be able to perform a subtraction if you do not have a REL button. Just two posts above yours.

[bitseeker]

Thank you for the test results, evava and mikeys. I'm pleasantly surprised that the 8008 was even doing well at 1 Ohm. That's good enough for my use. The REL function isn't critical since shorting the leads to see how much offset to compensate for takes just a moment.

[bitseeker]

Don't you need a 'REL' button for low resistance measurements? 

The REL function just subtracts the offset on your behalf. When measuring many high-resolution values that can be convenient. Otherwise, the same process can be done in your head.

e.g.,

Probes shorted = 0.34 Ohms
Measured resistance = 1.47 Ohms
Net resistance = 1.13 Ohms

As a quick measurement, 1.something - 0.something = approximately 1

[Fungus]

My 860B+ turned up today.

I really like it. It's definitely worth every penny of $20.  I have a feeling I'll use it a lot more than the AN8008. 

If I have to recommend a cheapo meter for a beginner, this is the one.

(until they release the mini version - I had a peek inside and I think there's actually less components in this meter than in the AN8008. They'd have no trouble at all making it smaller. Please, ANENG...! )

[plazma]

My 860B+ turned up today.

I really like it. It's definitely worth every penny of $20.  I have a feeling I'll use it a lot more than the AN8008. 

If I have to recommend a cheapo meter for a beginner, this is the one.

(until they release the mini version - I had a peek inside and I think there's actually less components in this meter than in the AN8008. They'd have no trouble at all making it smaller. Please, ANENG...! )

Does it have the AC measurement bug? If you switch from DC to AC it may show low AC voltage.

[Fungus]

Does it have the AC measurement bug? If you switch from DC to AC it may show low AC voltage.

Info?

I just connected it to a 5V supply in DC mode then switched to AC. The reading went down to zero (as expected).

[Fungus]

I just noticed that in mV mode with nothing connected it counts downwards slowly.

I understand this is normal but it's disconcerting.

nb. Even fancy Flukes do it: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8800a-quick-question-about-fault/

I'll leave it going, see how low it goes.

[kalel]

Does it have the AC measurement bug? If you switch from DC to AC it may show low AC voltage.

Info?

I just connected it to a 5V supply in DC mode then switched to AC. The reading went down to zero (as expected).

I think that's from Joe's video:
https://youtu.be/4PjmFqzlfLc?t=1542

[Fungus]

Does it have the AC measurement bug? If you switch from DC to AC it may show low AC voltage.

Info?

I just connected it to a 5V supply in DC mode then switched to AC. The reading went down to zero (as expected).

I think that's from Joe's video:
https://youtu.be/4PjmFqzlfLc?t=1542

Oh, I didn't know joe had done this one. Well... there you have all the accuracy testing results!

(edit: His is called a KT6000 not an AN860B+, but it's the same meter)

One weird thing. I noticed there's a little mark on the plastic under the "OFF" indicator, like a scuff mark. Joe has one too! Maybe they came out of the same mold. 

(from joe's video)


Joe paid $37? I got mine for $22 from the ANENG official store. 

[plazma]

Does it have the AC measurement bug? If you switch from DC to AC it may show low AC voltage.

Info?

I just connected it to a 5V supply in DC mode then switched to AC. The reading went down to zero (as expected).

Measure some AC voltage (outlet?) and see if it reads correctly. The bug shows low AC voltage when switching from DC even through there should be 220VAC or something.

[kalel]

Does it have the AC measurement bug? If you switch from DC to AC it may show low AC voltage.

Info?

I just connected it to a 5V supply in DC mode then switched to AC. The reading went down to zero (as expected).

I think that's from Joe's video:
https://youtu.be/4PjmFqzlfLc?t=1542

Oh, I didn't know joe had done this one. Well... there you have all the accuracy testing results!

(edit: His is called a KT6000 not an AN860B+, but it's the same meter)

One weird thing. I noticed there's a little mark on the plastic under the "OFF" indicator, like a scuff mark. Joe has one too! Maybe they came out of the same mold. 

(from joe's video)


Joe paid $37? I got mine for $22 from the ANENG official store. 

Prices change over time. Does AC work differently for you? I don't know if they make revisions and fix things over time. I can't wait until mine arrives (well, yet another brand). I can't actually do any advanced testing (I don't have any precision references or higher end multimeters to compare to), but let us know how happy you are with yours.

[Fungus]

Measure some AC voltage (outlet?) and see if it reads correctly.

Scary! 

The bug shows low AC voltage when switching from DC even through there should be 220VAC or something.

I put my big gloves and Raybans on and tried it. Nothing exploded.

I switched from AC to DC a couple of times. It always read 230V in AC mode, no problem.

(230V is correct for Spain)

[kalel]

Measure some AC voltage (outlet?) and see if it reads correctly.

Scary! 

The bug shows low AC voltage when switching from DC even through there should be 220VAC or something.

I put my big gloves and Raybans on and tried it. Nothing exploded.

I switched from AC to DC a couple of times. It always read 230V in AC mode, no problem.

(230V is correct for Spain)

Good to know it works well and that you're okay. Those Raybans must have saved a lot of lives. I guess here the switching is the most risky thing, as AC mode itself is less likely to make anything explode.

[don.r]

Those Raybans must have saved a lot of lives.

Thermonuclear protection... or is that Oakleys?

[Fungus]

Does AC work differently for you?

See above.

I can't wait until mine arrives (well, yet another brand). I can't actually do any advanced testing (I don't have any precision references or higher end multimeters to compare to), but let us know how happy you are with yours.

I'm very happy so far.

I have reasonably good volts/ohms/amps references, it's within a digit on all of them.

The diode test voltage seems to come direct from the batteries, ie. 3.2V with new batteries. That's plenty to light up LEDs (something I do a lot).

The probes are much better than the ones shipped with the AN8008. Just the right length, too, not like those ridiculously long Fluke probes. The case is really solid, good plastic.

Temperature function knows the room temperature even when there's no probe attached. That's handy!

Nothing really negative so far. The LCD lacks a little bit of contrast IMHO, but no worse than the AN8008.

[Mark Hennessy]

I checked with a bench PSU - the diode test voltage is independent of the battery voltage - there's a charge-pump circuit and a separate regulator built into the IC. The fact it is suspiciously close to the voltage of 2 fresh AAs is a coincidence

The test leads I got were the same as the AN8002 and AN8008.

I have the same marking just below the "OFF" text. Hadn't noticed that until just now...

[Fungus]

I checked with a bench PSU - the diode test voltage is independent of the battery voltage - there's a charge-pump circuit and a separate regulator built into the IC. The fact it is suspiciously close to the voltage of 2 fresh AAs is a coincidence

Cool!   3.2V is quite a decent diode test voltage.

(better than a Fluke 87V)

The test leads I got were the same as the AN8002 and AN8008.

I think there might be various 'distributions'.

In joe's video he shows one in a box. Mine arrived in bubble wrap.

Edit: No, the probes are the same! I was thinking of those horrible screw-together ones that come with the AN8008. 

I have the same marking just below the "OFF" text. Hadn't noticed that until just now...

Maybe they make all the cases in the same factory.

[glarsson]

Measure some AC voltage (outlet?) and see if it reads correctly. The bug shows low AC voltage when switching from DC even through there should be 220VAC or something.

I have two AN8002, one blue and orange.
With rotary selector in V position the yellow button toggles between DC and AC on the orange meter. Placing the test leads in a wall socket and pressing the yellow button alternates between 234V AC and 0V DC. Ok.

With rotary selector in V position the yellow button toggles between DC, AC, Hz and % on the blue meter. Placing the test leads in a wall socket and pressing the yellow button displays the horrible sequence 0V DC, 234V AC, 50Hz, 50%, 0V DC, 2VAC... Showing safe 2V AC with 234V AC on the input is NOT Ok.

The orange meter has Hz and % on mV position instead. Weird.
Btw, the orange meter has a later serial number.

[plazma]

Measure some AC voltage (outlet?) and see if it reads correctly. The bug shows low AC voltage when switching from DC even through there should be 220VAC or something.

I have two AN8002, one blue and orange.
With rotary selector in V position the yellow button toggles between DC and AC on the orange meter. Placing the test leads in a wall socket and pressing the yellow button alternates between 234V AC and 0V DC. Ok.

With rotary selector in V position the yellow button toggles between DC, AC, Hz and % on the blue meter. Placing the test leads in a wall socket and pressing the yellow button displays the horrible sequence 0V DC, 234V AC, 50Hz, 50%, 0V DC, 2VAC... Showing safe 2V AC with 234V AC on the input is NOT Ok.

The orange meter has Hz and % on mV position instead. Weird.
Btw, the orange meter has a later serial number.

My blue AN8002 works fine. Tested tens of times by toggling DC AC Hz and %. Also tested by switching from mV to V and AC. I have not heard before about AN8002 having the bug. The bug was in AN860B (non + model).

[plazma]

My units serial number is 171305916.

[glarsson]

AN8002 serial 171518146, blue, Hz on V, dangerous AC bug.
AN8002 serial 171530132, orange, Hz on mV.

[Mark Hennessy]

Just checked my AN8002 (170206748) and my 860B+ (171009044), and both are fine. My AN8002 has Hz and duty cycle in the V mode. Like plazma says, I thought it was only the AN860B (non +) that had it, so it's rather alarming to hear that there's an AN8002 out there with that bug.

[Mr. Scram]

How is the low current and voltage accuracy compared to the AN8008? Having a cheap and accurate meter is great for lower voltage bench work, but I am unsure which would suit me better.

I like the extra features the AN860+ brings, but not at the cost of the rest.

[Fungus]

How is the low current and voltage accuracy compared to the AN8008? Having a cheap and accurate meter is great for lower voltage bench work, but I am unsure which would suit me better.

The lowest voltage range is 60mV so that's 10uV resolution.

The lowest current range is 600uA so that's 0.1uA resolution.

An AN8008 has an extra digit on both of those ranges.

(those two ranges are the main reason to buy an AN8008, IMHO)

FWIW the AN860B+s weak points seem to be:
a) Frequency measurement. It only goes up to about 10kHz (according to the manual).
b) The TrueRMS frequency is also quite limited.

AN860B+ is the best all-rounder.

To get complete functionality you'll need two small ones: eg. AN8002+AN8008. It's a good starter kit for $30-odd bucks.

If you already own some meters then you can buy individual small ones to fill in the gaps.

Edit: I forgot to mention... none of the small ones have REL/MIN/MAX buttons.

[Mr. Scram]

The lowest voltage range is 60mV so that's 10uV resolution.

The lowest current range is 600uA so that's 0.1uA resolution.

An AN8008 has an extra digit on both of those ranges.

(those two ranges are the main reason to buy an AN8008, IMHO)

FWIW the AN860B+s weak points seem to be:
a) Frequency measurement. It only goes up to about 10kHz (according to the manual).
b) The TrueRMS frequency is also quite limited.

AN860B+ is the best all-rounder.

To get complete functionality you'll need two small ones: eg. AN8002+AN8008. 

If you already own some meters then you can buy small ones to fill in the gaps.

I guess the AN8008 wins out. Having a temperature and relative feature is nice, but having accurate voltage, current and capacitance readings is something I can actually use right now, or in the near future, or could use in a past project. I have been looking for something that can do capacitance properly and am amazed that a sub $20 meter now turns out to be the answer. Having accurate voltage and current readings will be nice when working on microcontrollers and their supplies for figuring out power consumption and efficiency.

Considering I never really do much with anything else than low voltage stuff, I have not been able to convince myself to spend big bucks on a 'real' meter. Somehow it feels it is necessary to become 'part of the club', but there are other tools that I would rather have and open up much more possibilities.

[FrankBuss]

The lowest voltage range is 60mV so that's 10uV resolution.

The lowest current range is 600uA so that's 0.1uA resolution.

An AN8008 has an extra digit on both of those ranges.

(those two ranges are the main reason to buy an AN8008, IMHO)

I wouldn't trust the 1uV resolution on the AN8008, and it has a quirk: it shows 0 for anything from +5uV to -5V. See my test, where I compare it with a Fluke 8842A. Of course, it is still very nice for its price, the Fluke is a little bit more expensive

[Fungus]

The lowest voltage range is 60mV so that's 10uV resolution.

The lowest current range is 600uA so that's 0.1uA resolution.

An AN8008 has an extra digit on both of those ranges.

I guess the AN8008 wins out.

If that's what you need then, sure. I'm not trying to sell anything here, just pointing out what amazing value this meter is.

FWIW the Fluke 87V only has 100uV and 0.1uA resolution so they're both better if small voltages are your thing.

[joeqsmith]

Does it have the AC measurement bug? If you switch from DC to AC it may show low AC voltage.

Info?

I just connected it to a 5V supply in DC mode then switched to AC. The reading went down to zero (as expected).

I think that's from Joe's video:
https://youtu.be/4PjmFqzlfLc?t=1542

This is why I asked Fungus to repeat the test on the first page.  I may be able to shed some light on it or some confusion.  If you watch the video you will notice that there is a DC and AC component to the waveform.  I have stated many times that the output from this generator is a 220VACrms 60HZ that was full rectified and unfiltered.  This normally provides me with a quick check of the AC, DC and AC+DC functions.   In this case, the meter can not seem to handle the rectified signal reliably.  The 8002 had a similar problem.  Both of these meters were damaged far beyond repair however, I did buy a second 8002 for a future video. 

I used my arb to get us away from the AC mains so others could perhaps repeat the test in a safe manor.   Again I full wave rectified the output of the Arb.  Yes, a basic function generator is all you would need.   At 400Hz, sine, 10Vrms, full rectified  the 8002 will read 10.01VAC.  My HP will read 10.002.    Switching the 8002 to DC, it reads 20.19 and the HP reads 20.198.  Switching back to AC and the 8002 read 10.01.  So no problems.   

Now lets increase the amplitude to 15VACrms with no other changes.   The 8002 reads 15.01AC and the HP reads 15.004.  Switch to DC and the 8002 reads 30.62 where the HP reads 30.63.  No problem.  Now switch the 8002 back to AC and it reads 3.093AC!  Of course, the HP still reads 15.004.  With the 8002 still in the AC mode, disconnect the leads and reconnect and the meter still reads 3.040.  I disconnect again and reconnect, 15.01.  Hit and miss. 

There are inexpensive meters out there that may have poor quality, may be sensitive to ESD or not very robust but at least they throw up correct numbers with some basic waveforms.   Personally even for basic bench hobby work, I have no use for these cheapo meters.  When you have to stop and thing under what circumstances is your meter not going to work, what's the point? 

[Mr. Scram]

When you have to stop and thing under what circumstances is your meter not going to work, what's the point?

Any tool has limitations. It is up to the person using it to know, respect or purposefully exceed them.

[Mark Hennessy]

If you watch the video you will notice that there is a DC and AC component to the waveform.  I have stated many times that the output from this generator is a 220VACrms 60HZ that was full rectified and unfiltered.  This normally provides me with a quick check of the AC, DC and AC+DC functions.   In this case, the meter can not seem to handle the rectified signal reliably.  The 8002 had a similar problem.

Ah - I hadn't seen reference to a DC offset before. That changes things...

I used my arb to get us away from the AC mains so others could perhaps repeat the test in a safe manor.   Again I full wave rectified the output of the Arb.  Yes, a basic function generator is all you would need.   At 400Hz, sine, 10Vrms, full rectified  the 8002 will read 10.01VAC.  My HP will read 10.002.    Switching the 8002 to DC, it reads 20.19 and the HP reads 20.198.  Switching back to AC and the 8002 read 10.01.  So no problems.   

Now lets increase the amplitude to 15VACrms with no other changes.   The 8002 reads 15.01AC and the HP reads 15.004.  Switch to DC and the 8002 reads 30.62 where the HP reads 30.63.  No problem.  Now switch the 8002 back to AC and it reads 3.093AC!  Of course, the HP still reads 15.004.  With the 8002 still in the AC mode, disconnect the leads and reconnect and the meter still reads 3.040.  I disconnect again and reconnect, 15.01.  Hit and miss. 

I'd done similar tests, but none of my function generators create enough voltage to replicate this problem. So I (carefully!) set up a test with a variac+isolation transformer and a bridge rectifier, and can confirm the behaviour - but read until the end

I found that it was absolutely fine with an AC input voltage (to the bridge) of 11V, which gives an AC component after the bridge of 3.8V and a DC component of 9.7V. No problem at all...

But once you go beyond that, the AC reading from the AN8002 and AN860B+ start to fall. Adjusting to give 15V prior to the bridge gave an AC component of 5.1V as measured by my 87V, and 4.3V according to the AN8002. The AN860B+ does a very similar thing. At 30V AC in, the post-bridge AC component is 10.7V, but the AN8002 reports it as just 0.7V!

I might have imagined this, but the AN860B+ did give correct readings initially, but once I switched it to DC and then back to AC, the bug came and hasn't gone away since. It's almost like something was changed by that initial test, as unlikely as that seems.

On the upside, I can report that the AN8008 doesn't have this problem

I wondered if other meters with the same IC could be affected. The BSIDE ADM08A seems fine, as does my UNI-T UT210E - although it has to be said that the DC offset did cause the auto-ranging to take quite a while to sort itself out.

And quite by chance, I discovered that the BM235 also does strange things with this test. With the same 30V AC into the bridge, it gives the expected 10V AC after the bridge. But cycle through DC -> VFD -> AC and it displays 0.6V AC. If you unplug the signal and put it back in again, it does sort itself out, so in practice this is less likely to catch you out if you're probing a circuit. Interestingly, if you turn the meter on and off again with the signal still plugged in, it continues to give incorrect readings.


BUT...

Having said all the above, I wasn't happy about some of the numbers I was getting, and especially as I started to get some inconsistencies after those tests. I wasted a bit of time checking my connectors, etc, and then decided that my large bridge rectifier might be causing problems with the junction capacitance or similar. So I added a 10k resistor to the output of the diode bridge. This improved things a lot.

Now, with 30V AC going in to the bridge, I was getting 26V DC and 13V AC after the bridge (verified with a Fluke 187 and an 87V - I brought out the 187 for the AC+DC mode). And, the AN8002 and AN860B+ behave perfectly. But the BM235 didn't change...

Time to reach for the 'scope. As expected, with no 10k resistor, the waveform is nuts. The screen-grab shows it with 3 multimeters connected to the output, but if you disconnect those, it get even more funky! With the 10k resistor, all is well.

I've no idea what causes the AN8002 and 860B+ to give such strange results without the 10k resistor - it's possible that some unfortunate combination of the waveshape combined with the particular properties of the AC conversion is to blame - but it looks like in a realistic power supply circuit, this particular problem shouldn't rear its head. But certainly, it's worth bearing in mind. And the BM235 behaviour is worthy of further investigation.

Does your setup have any sort of load across the output of the bridge, beyond the meter itself? And does adding a resistor help at your end?

All the best,

Mark

[evava]

Guys, thank you all!
Very useful information!

[ModemHead]

Yes, you need to encourage a minimum of current through the diodes or they will be decidedly non-linear.  10 Meg won't do it.  Junction capacitance and all that.

... And the BM235 behaviour is worthy of further investigation. ...

I don't have an AN8002 to test, but I do have a BM235.  To see the interesting effect easily, set the input voltage so that the AC component after the bridge is about 4Vrms.  Increase through 5 and 6Vrms.  If your BM235 behaves like mine, the reading will peak at roughly 5Vrms, then start to decrease.  It does not up-range unless you disconnect and re-connect it with the voltage at or above about 5.3Vrms.

I assume the DC component is saturating some buffer amp in the chip, causing the AC component to be clipped, and hence the erroneous readings.  To be fair, AC+DC arbitary waveforms are going to be iffy with any multimeter at some point, better to use a scope to be sure.

[joeqsmith]

Does your setup have any sort of load across the output of the bridge, beyond the meter itself? And does adding a resistor help at your end?

Yes, I do have a 10K resistor on across the output of both the transient generator as well as the last test I did with the arb. 

I repeated the 15VACrms test with 8002 in parallel with a second meter and scope. The only difference between the fullrect2&3  is toggling the 8002 to DC and back to AC.   
The last two are with the transient generator.     

A few of us have shown basically every meter can show errors in the AC, DC  or both under the proper biased AC signal.  What's different about these meters is they can show the data correctly at times.
 

[Mark Hennessy]

Curious, isn't it 

I spent a bit more time this morning playing around. As you were using 15V AC, I upped mine to 20V AC post-rectifier, just to see if I could provoke it. I did go quite a lot higher, but rather than fry my 10k resistor or dig out one that was more highly rated, I kept those tests short.

Anyway, I could not get either the AN8002 or AN860B+ to mis-read in these tests. I must have worn out the yellow button and range switch in those meters, but no luck - they just consistently read correctly. Noting comments in the video, I tried both polarities, but no difference. Likewise, with no 10k resistor, polarity didn't change the incorrect readings. At the same time, I noted that the issue with the BM235 is polarity-sensitive (it behaves OK with -DC going in).

Picking up on another comment in the video (34 minutes in), I also noted that the AN860B+ does indeed behave oddly when switched off. Partway through the tests, I added a small incandescent light bulb in series with the bridge - just to act as a safety limiter should I do something daft with the wiring. Easier than a fuse, but low enough resistance to not change the results... This bulb lights dimly when the AN860B+ is turned off. But if you measure the resistance between the terminals, you get an open. So there's obviously a voltage-dependant factor here, and sure enough, if you turn to a function like Ohms, the bulb comes on at the same brightness. Of course, doing that with any meter produces similar results in those modes - no-doubt the clamp+PTC+series resistance for those modes are in circuit. So it seems that, as you suggest, the 860B+ is not isolating the jacks in the usual way when switched off. How strange...

Anyway, as I said earlier, it is peculiar that the AN8002 and AN860B+ behave the way they do for the waveform I initially put in. Until I mentioned it, no-one else suggested trying the tests with some damping resistance after the bridge, and that's curious given how explicit the instructions were. For anyone else wishing to reproduce these tests, that resistance (even 100k will do) is essential, as without it, the waveform produced after the bridge is essentially completely arbitrary, depending as it does on several variables. Even with a x10 'scope probe, I'm not convinced I'm even seeing the same as the meters were seeing - just the capacitance of a metre of RG58 made about 100V of difference on the 'scope with no other loads present.

Ultimately, more data is required before concluding that these two meters definitely have an issue that will cause a real-world problem. At this stage, I'm more concerned with what I've found with the BM235 - especially as that's a meter that is often recommended as being well behaved and solid.

[joeqsmith]

I spent a bit more time this morning playing around. As you were using 15V AC, I upped mine to 20V AC post-rectifier, just to see if I could provoke it. I did go quite a lot higher, but rather than fry my 10k resistor or dig out one that was more highly rated, I kept those tests short.

Anyway, I could not get either the AN8002 or AN860B+ to mis-read in these tests. I must have worn out the yellow button and range switch in those meters, but no luck - they just consistently read correctly.

[Mark Hennessy]

I'm not doubting you, Joe, and I'm sure no-one else is. What we need now is a larger sample size 

I'll have one more go tomorrow morning before I put away the variac and other stuff.

Just a thought: would you be willing to look inside your new AN8002? The version number and date is on the silkscreen - mine is V0.4 and 2016/09/13. I'm just wondering if there could be distinct versions out there with this bug...

[kalel]

I don't think I'll be able to test this once my an860b+ rebranded meter comes (I don't think I have the right gear). But until then, you will probably have figured out all of the details anyway.

[joeqsmith]

I'm not doubting you, Joe, and I'm sure no-one else is. What we need now is a larger sample size 

I'll have one more go tomorrow morning before I put away the variac and other stuff.

Just a thought: would you be willing to look inside your new AN8002? The version number and date is on the silkscreen - mine is V0.4 and 2016/09/13. I'm just wondering if there could be distinct versions out there with this bug...

After your post of running above 15, I thought I should at least repeat it. 

The one I am showing is marked:
ZT101/102 V0.4
2016/09/13
SN#170209...

[Mark Hennessy]

OK, so same version as mine. Oh well... My s/n is 170206748, so a little older than yours.

So this time, I dug out a beefier 10k resistor and tried some higher voltages. Finally I got my AN8002 to play up, but I needed 30V AC/63V DC (about 70V prior to the rectifier). I thought I'd gone at least that high yesterday, but only very briefly because of my wimpy resistor, so I must have missed it.

I found that if you leave the meter on AC and disconnect and reconnect the source, it does come good without having to press buttons or re-power. Not sure if that's been mentioned yet...

I also discovered something else. With the meter behaving "properly" on AC, it gave good readings as I increased the input until it got to about 50V AC on the meter (about 110V AC prior to the rectifier). At this point, the AN8002 started under-reading, and then the reading started to decrease as the input rose. The polarity applied only made a small difference to this. Presumably this is the same root problem, only manifesting itself at these higher voltages because the meter is in a different range.

Regarding the 860B+, it also gave inaccurate AC readings at about 50V AC (actually a little less - perhaps 45V AC). But in terms of the gross errors when switching between AC, DC and AC again, I had to go to 60V AC/120V DC (as shown on the Fluke 187, because the 860B+ was reading 46V at this stage - though if you reverse the polarity it does give correct readings, and the problem does go away).

(The BM235 also starts to under-read the AC when you get to about 50V, though it's completely OK if you reverse the polarity, and sometimes rights itself if you remove and replug the signal. The VFD readings seem OK)

So there we go - I finally saw it! It's interesting that there is such a large spread of voltages at which the fault reveals itself. It's also interesting that none of my other meters showed any problems during the same tests, including several with the same chipset. Indeed, just for fun I went all the way to 240V AC (prior to the bridge). All meters - including the AN8008 - behaved perfectly.

The AN8008 result is interesting, because apart from the slight change in chipset, I'd imagine that everything else would be pretty similar between this and the AN8002. It would be good to reverse-engineer or otherwise obtain the schematics for both of these...

Hope this is of interest,

Mark

[joeqsmith]

... but I needed 30V AC/63V DC (about 70V prior to the rectifier).  ...

So there we go - I finally saw it! It's interesting that there is such a large spread of voltages at which the fault reveals itself. It's also interesting that none of my other meters showed any problems during the same tests, including several with the same chipset. Indeed, just for fun I went all the way to 240V AC (prior to the bridge). All meters - including the AN8008 - behaved perfectly.

The devils in the details.    If you are running your autotransformer off AC mains I can believe there is this much of a difference as the problem is frequency dependent.   You never specifically stated what frequency you were testing at.  If you were running at 50Hz full rectified,  I am surprised the 8002 would even settle at the lower voltages.   Mine just hunts non-stop.  The meter is too cheap to include a manual range, so you have no idea what the signal is without grabbing a better meter.   

I set my arb for 50Hz and with 24.74VACrms (50.2VDC), the 8002 can be toggled between AC and DC without any error.  I then slowing increased the amplitude while toggling the AC/DC selection button until the meter faulted.  This happens at 26.0VACrms.   And, yes I can remove the connection when leaving the meter in AC and it will read the correct value. 

As I continue to increase the AC voltage, while I continue to toggle between AC/DC the meter will begin to work correctly but it will go through areas where it is really messed up.

At 37.89 the 8002 reads 2.297V
At 62V the 8002 reads 49V
At 64.98 the 8002 reads 64.9
At 74.5 the 8002 reads 74.5

Other meters may have this same problem.  I suspect that the meter can read correctly, it is some sort of math error.  Again, no manual range but it's possible it picks the wrong range and could read it correctly.  This would make sense with the unplug to reset as it would reset the autorange as well. 

You say the BM235 has the same problem.  That meter has a manual range so if you are able to replicate it, just manual range it and see if it throws up the correct numbers.

[kalel]

... but I needed 30V AC/63V DC (about 70V prior to the rectifier).  ...

So there we go - I finally saw it! It's interesting that there is such a large spread of voltages at which the fault reveals itself. It's also interesting that none of my other meters showed any problems during the same tests, including several with the same chipset. Indeed, just for fun I went all the way to 240V AC (prior to the bridge). All meters - including the AN8008 - behaved perfectly.

The devils in the details.    If you are running your autotransformer off AC mains I can believe there is this much of a difference as the problem is frequency dependent.   You never specifically stated what frequency you were testing at.  If you were running at 50Hz full rectified,  I am surprised the 8002 would even settle at the lower voltages.   Mine just hunts non-stop.  The meter is too cheap to include a manual range, so you have no idea what the signal is without grabbing a better meter.   

I set my arb for 50Hz and with 24.74VACrms (50.2VDC), the 8002 can be toggled between AC and DC without any error.  I then slowing increased the amplitude while toggling the AC/DC selection button until the meter faulted.  This happens at 26.0VACrms.   And, yes I can remove the connection when leaving the meter in AC and it will read the correct value. 

As I continue to increase the AC voltage, while I continue to toggle between AC/DC the meter will begin to work correctly but it will go through areas where it is really messed up.

At 37.89 the 8002 reads 2.297V
At 62V the 8002 reads 49V
At 64.98 the 8002 reads 64.9
At 74.5 the 8002 reads 74.5

Other meters may have this same problem.  I suspect that the meter can read correctly, it is some sort of math error.  Again, no manual range but it's possible it picks the wrong range and could read it correctly.  This would make sense with the unplug to reset as it would reset the autorange as well. 

You say the BM235 has the same problem.  That meter has a manual range so if you are able to replicate it, just manual range it and see if it throws up the correct numbers.

Speaking of manual range, the an860b has the "range" button, while having I assume the same chip as an8002. 

[joeqsmith]

You say the BM235 has the same problem.  That meter has a manual range so if you are able to replicate it, just manual range it and see if it throws up the correct numbers.

Speaking of manual range, the an860b has the "range" button, while having I assume the same chip as an8002.

I don't have one to check but it would be interesting to know if its the autorange causing the problem on the AN860. 

[kalel]

You say the BM235 has the same problem.  That meter has a manual range so if you are able to replicate it, just manual range it and see if it throws up the correct numbers.

Speaking of manual range, the an860b has the "range" button, while having I assume the same chip as an8002.

I don't have one to check but it would be interesting to know if its the autorange causing the problem on the AN860.

I will have a rebranded AN860B+ eventually (when/if it comes) but unfortunately I'm not able to do these tests.

[Mark Hennessy]

The devils in the details.    If you are running your autotransformer off AC mains I can believe there is this much of a difference as the problem is frequency dependent.   You never specifically stated what frequency you were testing at.  If you were running at 50Hz full rectified,  I am surprised the 8002 would even settle at the lower voltages.   Mine just hunts non-stop.  The meter is too cheap to include a manual range, so you have no idea what the signal is without grabbing a better meter.   

I set my arb for 50Hz and with 24.74VACrms (50.2VDC), the 8002 can be toggled between AC and DC without any error.  I then slowing increased the amplitude while toggling the AC/DC selection button until the meter faulted.  This happens at 26.0VACrms.   And, yes I can remove the connection when leaving the meter in AC and it will read the correct value. 

As I continue to increase the AC voltage, while I continue to toggle between AC/DC the meter will begin to work correctly but it will go through areas where it is really messed up.

At 37.89 the 8002 reads 2.297V
At 62V the 8002 reads 49V
At 64.98 the 8002 reads 64.9
At 74.5 the 8002 reads 74.5

Other meters may have this same problem.  I suspect that the meter can read correctly, it is some sort of math error.  Again, no manual range but it's possible it picks the wrong range and could read it correctly.  This would make sense with the unplug to reset as it would reset the autorange as well. 

You say the BM235 has the same problem.  That meter has a manual range so if you are able to replicate it, just manual range it and see if it throws up the correct numbers.

Yes, 50Hz AC. All those details were given in post #104.

I don't see the strange up/down behaviour. Once you go past 45V, it just gradually and smoothly falls, down to about 35V at 105V.

There's no doubt it's an auto-ranging thing. The AN8002 has that internal range switch if you want to try it for yourself (ought I point out the hazards of that for anyone else who might be thinking of trying that?).

It seems that something is clipping internally ahead of the ADC, resulting in a signal that has an average value that doesn't exceed the 6200 that's needed to make it range up. The fact it often comes good when the signal is briefly removed suggests it might be a capacitor storing charge from being in DC mode (or some near equivalent in the digital domain given that the RMS detection is done with DSP). With a more detailed datasheet, and access to the pins (which luckily you have with the 860B+), more diagnosis might be possible. In the meantime, the key thing is that we've been able to characterise it to some extent, so I can eventually update my reviews of these meters.

Of course, the under-reading at higher voltages is a similar thing caused by clipping. Changing up to the next range resolves that. But of course, you have to know that

Whether this is something that most users will run into is a whole other question, but it's definitely something that needs reporting.

If I can find a small, low-current variac for a good price, I'll build up this test setup into a small box for future testing with a bit more safety and convenience in mind...

Thanks for your input

Cheers,

Mark

[MacMeter]

Whether this is something that most users will run into is a whole other question, but it's definitely something that needs reporting.

Been following these threads on ZT102/109 8002/8008, as I bought both. Excuse my newbie ignorance, but perhaps one of you experts can post ALL the gothas and "issues", and readings "shortcomings", INACCURACIES of these two models in a single post. As of now I am totally lost as to what bugs, and what modes are NOT trustworthy with these two meter models. I also own the EEVBLOG BM235, not sure of reported bugs on that one either. THANKS!

[floobydust]

Shame on Dreamtech for not displaying the f/w version on power-up 
Without that, this is all a mess to understand what DMM0660 models have this the firmware bug.
It would be a product recall in North America due to the safety aspect.

I looked at the DMM IC to see what is involved in reading ACV.
Autoranging - it's not the LCD value; in software, if the A/D is near fullscale, you switch the input voltage divider down a decade. But the A/D gain can also be stepped down.
DMM IC firmware is switching to keep your A/D resolution up there but not saturate the input amplifier.
On ACV you have two registers: A/D gives a DC result and an (HPF) AC result.

It sounds like the firmware is grabbing the wrong register while doing it's internal autoranging, at a particular input gain and A/D count.

[Mark Hennessy]

Does anyone have a link to the original datasheet? Kerry Wong's translation is great, but I'd like a better look at the diagrams which are rather low-res in the PDF.

Presumably you're looking at something else to arrive at those conclusions? The details in Kerry's version imply that pre-ADC gain is used for the lowest millivolt ranges only with this meter.

[Mark Hennessy]

Whether this is something that most users will run into is a whole other question, but it's definitely something that needs reporting.

Been following these threads on ZT102/109 8002/8008, as I bought both. Excuse my newbie ignorance, but perhaps one of you experts can post ALL the gothas and "issues", and readings "shortcomings", INACCURACIES of these two models in a single post. As of now I am totally lost as to what bugs, and what modes are NOT trustworthy with these two meter models. I also own the EEVBLOG BM235, not sure of reported bugs on that one either. THANKS!

The bug being discussed occurs when you have a mixture of AC and DC present at once.

It must be emphasised that many meters can be confused by such conditions. The tests we've been doing perhaps represent an extreme condition, where large amounts of both AC and DC are present - and to my mind it's debatable as to how realistic this is, based on what I get up to with my multimeters.

For that reason, I've tried a different test this morning. I've taken 1V from my function generator and passed it through a coupling capacitor. This is connected to a 1k resistor from a DC bench power supply set to 30V, and the junction goes to the DMM. This - to me, at least - represents a much more likely scenario for electronics, where small AC signals riding on large DC offsets often occur. With this setup, I've been able to confuse a whole load more meters than just the Aneng models discussed here. Though no Flukes, I'm happy to say.

I would also emphasise that for this sort of work, an oscilloscope is the proper tool in my opinion. I would always look at a signal on a screen if that's possible and safe. Perhaps I'd then use a multimeter to get a more accurate reading if needed, but having seen it on the 'scope screen first, I'd know roughly what to expect, so wouldn't fall into the trap of automatically believing the numbers convincing presented on the LCD (that's a really important point to take away if you are a "newbie" ).

It's vital to know your tools and understand their limitations as nothing is perfect. That's why Joe and I have been explicit about our test methodologies so that others can repeat the tests themselves and characterise their own meters. No special equipment needed - you might not have the same stuff as Joe and I, but if you understand what you're trying to achieve, then you should be able to think of something that replicates the conditions closely enough.

That's the AC+DC "bug". I think that any other issues - such that they are - are covered on my reviews:

http://www.markhennessy.co.uk/budget_multimeters/aneng_an8002.htm
http://www.markhennessy.co.uk/budget_multimeters/aneng_an860bplus.htm

I will add a summary of the AC+DC bug to these at some point soon.

Hope that helps,

Mark

[glarsson]

The bug being discussed occurs when you have a mixture of AC and DC present at once.

One of my two AN8002 shows incorrect AC without any (significant) DC.  Select V and AC. Put probes into 230V AC outlet. Display shows 234VAC (or similar). Toggle to DC; display shows 0VDC. Toggle to AC; display shows 2VAC.

Looks more like a bug when switching between AC and DC, with or without an DC voltage present.

[Mark Hennessy]

The bug being discussed occurs when you have a mixture of AC and DC present at once.

One of my two AN8002 shows incorrect AC without any (significant) DC.  Select V and AC. Put probes into 230V AC outlet. Display shows 234VAC (or similar). Toggle to DC; display shows 0VDC. Toggle to AC; display shows 2VAC.

Looks more like a bug when switching between AC and DC, with or without an DC voltage present.

As I said back in post '96, that doesn't happen with my samples. I have just checked again...

When yours is reading incorrectly on AC, what happens if you remove a probe and re-connect it?

[crazyguy]

Does anyone have a link to the original datasheet? Kerry Wong's translation is great, but I'd like a better look at the diagrams which are rather low-res in the PDF.

Presumably you're looking at something else to arrive at those conclusions? The details in Kerry's version imply that pre-ADC gain is used for the lowest millivolt ranges only with this meter.

original copy

[Mark Hennessy]

Does anyone have a link to the original datasheet? Kerry Wong's translation is great, but I'd like a better look at the diagrams which are rather low-res in the PDF.

Presumably you're looking at something else to arrive at those conclusions? The details in Kerry's version imply that pre-ADC gain is used for the lowest millivolt ranges only with this meter.

original copy

That's great - thank you 

I'll take a proper look later, but certainly looks like there's lots of good stuff in there!

[glarsson]

When yours is reading incorrectly on AC, what happens if you remove a probe and re-connect it?

I can't reproduce it now (don't know why) but as I remember it I had to move the rotating switch away and back.

One thing is clear. Now when I switch back from DC to AC it auto ranges 0.000, 00.00, 000.0, 234.00. When it showed 2VAC it did not auto range and just displayed 2.something directly.

[Mark Hennessy]

Yes, with the AC+DC case, it's definitely the auto-ranging not doing the right thing - see previous posts for a variety of speculation as to what's happening, but whatever the real answer, you can at least appreciate that it's a lot more complex and there is scope to get something wrong. But in the case of raw AC with no DC offset, I'm really struggling to imagine what could be going on. Let's hope we won't see that one again

If you can reproduce it, as well as removing and re-connecting the signal, it's also worth connecting it via a capacitor (10n should be fine - watch the voltage though!) to remove all DC component. Sometimes the mains has a small DC component because of distortion...

[glarsson]

The DC component of the mains (as shown by the AN8002) was not stable and jumped around below 0.5V.

[tronde]

Does anyone have a link to the original datasheet? Kerry Wong's translation is great, but I'd like a better look at the diagrams which are rather low-res in the PDF.

Spend some time on the HY12P65 as well. It is believed to be the processor used in DTM0660.

http://www.hycontek.com/en/products-en/3256

[floobydust]

Does anyone have a link to the original datasheet? Kerry Wong's translation is great, but I'd like a better look at the diagrams which are rather low-res in the PDF.

Spend some time on the HY12P65 as well. It is believed to be the processor used in DTM0660.

http://www.hycontek.com/en/products-en/3256

I believe Dream Tech does the application firmware for DMM's based on the Hycon HY12P65. I'm not sure who EEVblog is working with for the new DMM's firmware.
You can run the 660 datasheet .pdf through google translate, it seems to do better than Kerry Wong.

The AN8008 DMM IC appears the same as the HY12P65 but with more (or fudged)  A/D resolution and the support for external voltage reference.
chinese forums are saying the COB version is low quality (for export) compared to the QFP packaged part (domestic use).

[MacMeter]

The bug being discussed occurs when you have a mixture of AC and DC present at once.

One of my two AN8002 shows incorrect AC without any (significant) DC.  Select V and AC. Put probes into 230V AC outlet. Display shows 234VAC (or similar). Toggle to DC; display shows 0VDC. Toggle to AC; display shows 2VAC.

Looks more like a bug when switching between AC and DC, with or without an DC voltage present.

Just tested my ZT102/8002, on a USA 120 volt mains outlet. Shows 120 volts AC, and switching to DC mode, shows 0.19, but I can switch back to AC, still shows 120 volts, same if I remove and replace leads.

BTW: ZT102/8002 backlight stays on for less then 15 seconds, on the ZT109/8008, backlight stays ON for approximately 2 minutes, much better!

[kalel]

I also got my AN860B+ as DM400. I'm wondering, is there any way to turn the beep beep between selecting ranges off? As useful as it is, I want to preserve the batteries and sometimes don't want the beep sound if possible.

Second, could it be that my batteries are not good enough (new, but cheap) or is the contrast worse than DT830D? With the backlight, it looks great, but without, it's a bit less pronounced. It's completely usable, though.

I tried picturing it, but it looks a bit different on photos, and it's not easy to get a good comparison photo. But the DT830D definitely has great contrast from all angles. No backlight though, maybe it's related?

Edit: Here's an attempt to image it from a similar angle (straight):

The issue here is that I can't fully turn the auto adjusting off. So, the levels will not be equal. But, they are almost representative of the difference when looking straight at the screens. Both visible, but DT more pronounced.

As others have mentioned before on the Aneng brand, it also comes with the mark below the off switch.

[MrPCB]

I believe I saw that one on vitechparts.com
Can't find it anymore though, might be mistaking.

It looks pretty good to me!

[kalel]

I believe I saw that one on vitechparts.com
Can't find it anymore though, might be mistaking.

It looks pretty good to me!

Which one is that?

[kalel]

I'm also adding some images of the probes with others for comparison:

AN860B+ / DM400:


It's not easy to keep these stable, but the best I was able to get is 0.1 - 0.3 ohms. That should be fine.

Old Mastech probes (came with a badly working $10 unit - using now on DT830D):


When held firmly together, these show 0.0 ohm on the DM400. On the DT830D it starts from around 3 ohms and decelerates for a long time.
I had to "repair" the DT830D input jacks, as voltage one was broken. Might be partly the cause of the different reading.

Cheap $2.5 analog multimeter probes (MF-110A):


Finger test also shows that Mastech are the sharpest probes of the bunch. I'm no expert in probes, so I can't provide any more feedback from the images. If you've noticed something else about the construction differences, let us know.

Also, both Aneng and $2.5 multimeter probe pairs seem to have the some differences between each other. Those differences are less noticable on the Mastech ones (after a few years, slight wear might have some effect on the shape too). But this is likely not important in normal use (how symmetrical the probes are).

[Fungus]

the DT830D definitely has great contrast from all angles. No backlight though, maybe it's related?

I often wonder why big manufacturers like Fluke/Brymen/etc. can't get their LCDs as good as the freebie DT830Bs. 

(can anybody explain it?)

[kalel]

the DT830D definitely has great contrast from all angles. No backlight though, maybe it's related?

I often wonder why big manufacturers like Fluke/Brymen/etc. can't get their LCDs as good as the freebie DT830Bs. 

(can anybody explain it?)

You get instantish beeping too (not on the B version). Unfortunately, it's the lack of latching that makes the fast response. Still, you could get somewhat higher frequency continuity beeping if needed in some special case.

That said, this an860b+ / dm400 has really great continuity. Definitely seems fast enough for my use, and there's no scratching. Not that scratching was a major issue on the DT, unless it really annoys you.

[floobydust]

the DT830D definitely has great contrast from all angles. No backlight though, maybe it's related?

I often wonder why big manufacturers like Fluke/Brymen/etc. can't get their LCDs as good as the freebie DT830Bs. 

(can anybody explain it?)

I can try explain. The DT830 appears to use 9VDC power and direct-drive (no multiplexing) ala ICL7106. This is pretty much the highest LCD contrast you can get.

The DMM0660 used in most meters runs off less with 3VDC. But has a LCD charge-pump inverter which is programmable with 4 LCD bias levels, at EEPROM F9H: 3.3V, 3.05V, 2.8V, 2.55V. The meters come set to level 3/4. I have not tried cranking it up or if I translated this properly.

So you get ~6V drive to the LCD but it uses multiplexing 1/4 duty cycle 1/3 bias, to cut down the pin count, so again you lose contrast there.

Extended temperature LCD fluids, good to -20C or -30C require high drive voltage and more finicky with temperature, you'd need a pot to keep adjusting it.

[kalel]

the DT830D definitely has great contrast from all angles. No backlight though, maybe it's related?

I often wonder why big manufacturers like Fluke/Brymen/etc. can't get their LCDs as good as the freebie DT830Bs. 

(can anybody explain it?)

I can try explain. The DT830 appears to use 9VDC power and direct-drive (no multiplexing) ala ICL7106. This is pretty much the highest LCD contrast you can get.

The DMM0660 used in most meters runs off less with 3VDC. But has a LCD charge-pump inverter which is programmable with 4 LCD bias levels, at EEPROM F9H: 3.3V, 3.05V, 2.8V, 2.55V. The meters come set to level 3/4. I have not tried cranking it up or if I translated this properly.

So you get ~6V drive to the LCD but it uses multiplexing 1/4 duty cycle 1/3 bias, to cut down the pin count, so again you lose contrast there.

Extended temperature LCD fluids, good to -20C or -30C require high drive voltage and more finicky with temperature, you'd need a pot to keep adjusting it.

Interesting. It would be nice if there was a contrast setting built into the meter, so you could adjust it with a button (probably along with other things such as auto shutdown time, backlight settings, etc). I wanted to say I don't see any reason not to include such extra settings, but perhaps having too many options with only a few buttons is a good reason. Although some "special settings" that aren't used frequently could probably be done with special key combinations, so that there's no intrusion on standard usability.

[Fungus]

Interesting.

OK, I get the technical aspects but that still doesn't explain why they can't increase the LCDS voltage boost to get an extra volt (or whatever).

It would be nice if there was a contrast setting built into the meter, so you could adjust it with a button (probably along with other things such as auto shutdown time, backlight settings, etc).

I remember back in the 1980s every electronic gadget with LCD had this.

[kalel]

Speaking of low voltage, I measured the battery of one room temperature meter (the cheap ones), and seems to be 2 1.5v in parallel.
Even if it was in series, that would still be ~3v which is similar to two AA batteries in series.

The contrast is very strong, exactly the same as the DT.

[Fungus]

Speaking of low voltage, I measured the battery of one room temperature meter (the cheap ones), and seems to be 2 1.5v in parallel.
Even if it was in series, that would still be ~3v which is similar to two AA batteries in series.

The contrast is very strong, exactly the same as the DT.

Dave did a whole video on hacking his own Brymen meter to get decent contrast. It's just a resistor selection, but ... Brymen got it wrong.

[kalel]

I would also add that you should take a lot of care of the display cover.

I already see a light (but visible enough to be slightly annoying) scratch on mine after just a few uses. Not sure what caused it exactly, but I wish I knew earlier exactly how delicate it was (e.g. I think the DT doesn't have any protection, but can stand a lot more). I doubt we can get replacements for these.
I also don't dare to try some polish methods, otherwise I might end up with a semi-transparent display.

[edavid]

I would also add that you should take a lot of care of the display cover.

I already see a light (but visible enough to be slightly annoying) scratch on mine after just a few uses. Not sure what caused it exactly, but I wish I knew earlier exactly how delicate it was (e.g. I think the DT doesn't have any protection, but can stand a lot more). I doubt we can get replacements for these.
I also don't dare to try some polish methods, otherwise I might end up with a semi-transparent display.

If it's soft enough to scratch that easily, it will also be very easy to polish.  Try some toothpaste.

(Use a soft cloth, not a toothbrush.)

[kalel]

I would also add that you should take a lot of care of the display cover.

I already see a light (but visible enough to be slightly annoying) scratch on mine after just a few uses. Not sure what caused it exactly, but I wish I knew earlier exactly how delicate it was (e.g. I think the DT doesn't have any protection, but can stand a lot more). I doubt we can get replacements for these.
I also don't dare to try some polish methods, otherwise I might end up with a semi-transparent display.

If it's soft enough to scratch that easily, it will also be very easy to polish.  Try some toothpaste.

Thanks for the tip, but before attempting I would need to learn more (I haven't actually polished any scratches before).
Just for a test, I tried once polishing a piece of a transparent soft plastic material (nothing valuable) using a toothbrush and some toothpaste. Maybe I shouldn't have used the toothbrush but some really really fine material? Anyway, the result was I got a perfectly nice "diffused" plastic which might be a great thing for some LED projects (good to know). But for a multimeter display, it would be pretty much ruined if the same happened.

[Fungus]

I would also add that you should take a lot of care of the display cover.

I already see a light (but visible enough to be slightly annoying) scratch on mine after just a few uses. Not sure what caused it exactly, but I wish I knew earlier exactly how delicate it was (e.g. I think the DT doesn't have any protection, but can stand a lot more).

I always cut a phone screen protector to shape and stick it on my meters.

[kalel]

I always cut a phone screen protector to shape and stick it on my meters.

That's what I did. I got a bundle in the final days of Dick Smith closing for 10 cents each.

Yes, I'm going to do that too, but I just wish I was able to do it before the damage.
Still, it's much better now than it could be in the future.

[ebastler]

I tried once polishing a piece of a transparent soft plastic material (nothing valuable) using a toothbrush and some toothpaste. Maybe I shouldn't have used the toothbrush but some really really fine material? Anyway, the result was I got a perfectly nice "diffused" plastic which might be a great thing for some LED projects (good to know). But for a multimeter display, it would be pretty much ruined if the same happened.

Indeed -- toothpaste is fine, but use it with a soft cloth, not a toothbrush! The paste contains some mild abrasive; the bristles of the brush are not that mild...

[Fungus]

Indeed -- toothpaste is fine, but use it with a soft cloth, not a toothbrush!

Or just use your finger. That way you can feel what's happening.

[Bud]

Unless you want to experiment, there is variety of plastic polishing paste products in hardware stores and automotive sections, , they work well.

[kalel]

Thanks for the tips everybody. Yes, the brush method is good for diffusing soft plastic (e.g. light cover), but definitely not fine polishing, as one could expect.

I can still live with it at this point since it's relatively mild. If it gets worse enough before I can find a screen protector to apply, I'll try the polish method. It always feel risky, although I can first get some pieces of soft plastic to experiment on as before (always a good idea).

Other than that sensitivity, I'm really enjoying the meter so far. It's my first step up from DT830D (~$3 one that does have continuity tester, but not temperature), and the reading response is very rapid (e.g. measuring resistance and getting the value).

I hooked it up to some potentiometers, and autoranging has no problems switching quickly between ranges.

Continuity works great too, although I never had problems with the small DT there. It doesn't latch, but that means very little lag.

Btw Fungus, did you decide to buy that mini Aneng in the end? The one even smaller than DT.

[Fungus]

Btw Fungus, did you decide to buy that mini Aneng in the end? The one even smaller than DT.

Yes.

It's exactly what I was hoping for, a tiny little multimeter!

Plastics are good, screen is good, probes are quite good, it measures quite well (...and it's easy to calibrate - just turn a pot!)

Here it is making a DT830B look massive:

I can't wait to take it to Arduino club in September. 

[kalel]

Btw Fungus, did you decide to buy that mini Aneng in the end? The one even smaller than DT.

Yes.

It's exactly what I was hoping for, a tiny little multimeter!

Plastics are good, screen is good, probes are quite good, it measures quite well (...and it's easy to calibrate - just turn a pot!)

Here it is making a DT830B look massive:

I can't wait to take it to Arduino club in September. 

Looks neat. If known, are they based on the same IC?

[floobydust]

Beginning of Joe's AN8008 robustness testing, he shows results of  Meguiar's PlastX polishing compound for car headlights. It worked great on his multimeter display bezels 

The ANENG AN8008.  Enjoy.

[rsjsouza]

Fungus, I got the same mini and have the same impression as you: plastics are good, the rotary switch is pretty tight, the contrast is remarkable and it is pretty simple to calibrate. Contrary to you, I found the probes just passable, but for the price I am not complaining. Also, the unit specifies a non-existing 250mA fuse. At least is does not have BS CAT ratings, but it is somewhat optimistic at 500V_AC and 500V_DC. I like the battery tester.

Looks neat. If known, are they based on the same IC?

Yes, it is clearly a 7106-based DMM.

[kalel]

Beginning of Joe's AN8008 robustness testing, he shows results of  Meguiar's PlastX polishing compound for car headlights. It worked great on his multimeter display bezels 

The ANENG AN8008.  Enjoy.

I doubt I could find that one. Maybe I could find something similar. Although $8 is better if you are going to use it on multiple things (or something expensive).
I guess it's hard to compare these things unless they list all of the ingredients and quantities. Or at least the ingredients.

Microscopic Diminishing Abrasive™ Technology (MDAT)

doesn't mean very much to me.

[kalel]

Fungus, I got the same mini and have the same impression as you: plastics are good, the rotary switch is pretty tight, the contrast is remarkable and it is pretty simple to calibrate. Contrary to you, I found the probes just passable, but for the price I am not complaining. Also, the unit specifies a non-existing 250mA fuse. At least is does not have BS CAT ratings, but it is somewhat optimistic at 500V_AC and 500V_DC. I like the battery tester.

Looks neat. If known, are they based on the same IC?

Yes, it is clearly a 7106-based DMM.

Regarding the fuse, the DT830D I have also specifies "please install..." Fuse, but there isn't even a Fuse holder inside. That said, I guess one could install a fuse with some work if necessary.
As for the probes, they look better than the DT830D (no hot glue necessary?), without having seen them first hand, that's all I can say.

[rsjsouza]

Fungus, I got the same mini and have the same impression as you: plastics are good, the rotary switch is pretty tight, the contrast is remarkable and it is pretty simple to calibrate. Contrary to you, I found the probes just passable, but for the price I am not complaining. Also, the unit specifies a non-existing 250mA fuse. At least is does not have BS CAT ratings, but it is somewhat optimistic at 500V_AC and 500V_DC. I like the battery tester.

Looks neat. If known, are they based on the same IC?

Yes, it is clearly a 7106-based DMM.

Regarding the fuse, the DT830D I have also specifies "please install..." Fuse, but there isn't even a Fuse holder inside. That said, I guess one could install a fuse with some work if necessary.
As for the probes, they look better than the DT830D (no hot glue necessary?), without having seen them first hand, that's all I can say.

The ones I have are fused, but the quality eroded over the years. Several years ago I did a small teardown and years later I got another one that barely had a fuse... 

[Fungus]

Fungus, I got the same mini and have the same impression as you: plastics are good, the rotary switch is pretty tight, the contrast is remarkable and it is pretty simple to calibrate.

Contrary to you, I found the probes just passable, but for the price I am not complaining.

OK, not great, but better than the ones I got with my DT830.

[kalel]

Just curious, do we know if the AN850B+ has the same PCB contacts inside for the rubber buttons as the AN860B+, and only the actual buttons are removed, or is it a different PCB?

Well, apart from the temperature missing, but those things are programmed in.

[Fungus]

Regarding the fuse, the DT830D I have also specifies "please install..." Fuse, but there isn't even a Fuse holder inside. That said, I guess one could install a fuse with some work if necessary.

The DT830 is/was quite a good meter but the design was massively cloned and people have been removing anything they can just to save $0.0001 in manufacturing. Fuses were one of the first things to go, followed by buzzers, etc.

[kalel]

I'm getting about a 3 degree difference from the TM-902C.

I'm not yet sure if that might be due to the measurement method (I'm not sure how to get two probes to measure exactly the same spot).

I tested it on, flat surface and attached with some tape to a 1w resistor (obviously not exactly the same spot, and each spot will have a slightly different temperature).
In both cases there was a similar difference.

[i4004]

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPjCNpJMf60HOrnCO2RDKxX5pzcgO19hhYET1hpyagABU1fVbjPTrG5qbOnyCj-2w?key=ekU1VHE2T3QySlg0a3dXUXByQ2FMQjZKSkhub3R3

works normally once supply voltage passes 3V....

works normally if you "boot" it at 3V and then bring voltage down to 2.4V...reset it at 2.4V and then back to the bug...

[Stinger]

the DT830D definitely has great contrast from all angles. No backlight though, maybe it's related?

I often wonder why big manufacturers like Fluke/Brymen/etc. can't get their LCDs as good as the freebie DT830Bs. 

(can anybody explain it?)

I can try explain. The DT830 appears to use 9VDC power and direct-drive (no multiplexing) ala ICL7106. This is pretty much the highest LCD contrast you can get.

The DMM0660 used in most meters runs off less with 3VDC. But has a LCD charge-pump inverter which is programmable with 4 LCD bias levels, at EEPROM F9H: 3.3V, 3.05V, 2.8V, 2.55V. The meters come set to level 3/4. I have not tried cranking it up or if I translated this properly.

So you get ~6V drive to the LCD but it uses multiplexing 1/4 duty cycle 1/3 bias, to cut down the pin count, so again you lose contrast there.

Extended temperature LCD fluids, good to -20C or -30C require high drive voltage and more finicky with temperature, you'd need a pot to keep adjusting it.

Hello,

Thank's for explanations.

I have DT830b and other newer DMM (AN8009, UT210e and AN860b+).

DT830b have better contrast.

It is possible to improve contrast on AN860 and AN870 by changing EEPROM F9H at 3.3V ?