Author Topic: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?  (Read 165725 times)

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Offline brainwash

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #475 on: January 18, 2018, 11:39:06 pm »
Mike and others with NO first hand use have prattled on and attacked the product and Dave's thoughts and actions and repeated those sentiments and statements in multiple posts.  Some of these comments made seem to be more about whipping up a storm than looking for a solution.

While certainly not perfect Dave deserves the decency of some time with his family for a start then some time to go back to the manufacturer to sort out some of the issues then let us know what they have found and a path forward to improve the meter.

Sorry to intervene, but you are either unique among people or just biased in this case. People are not thinking of the Amazon delivery men/women's families when Christmas approaches nor will they investigate why it takes time for a reseller to solve their issues - thinking they must be on vacation. Maybe not the case here, but not sure where the line is drawn between customers and enthusiasts.

I felt bad about dragging the hotel manager out from a family outing on the 24th of December - but not my fault if there is only one hotel manager who also managed to lock me out of my room. Again, not the case here, but I think there should be a distinction between expectations and sentiments.

While I'm sure it will be [somehow] settled, it seems like a s*storm from both sides, without even a single quote from Dave. Not sure where all this rage is coming from or going to...
I guess polarized opinions means a successful product or campaign, regardless of the results.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #476 on: January 19, 2018, 12:16:02 am »
Mike and others with NO first hand use have prattled on and attacked the product and Dave's thoughts and actions and repeated those sentiments and statements in multiple posts.  Some of these comments made seem to be more about whipping up a storm than looking for a solution.

While certainly not perfect Dave deserves the decency of some time with his family for a start then some time to go back to the manufacturer to sort out some of the issues then let us know what they have found and a path forward to improve the meter.

Sorry to intervene, but you are either unique among people or just biased in this case. People are not thinking of the Amazon delivery men/women's families when Christmas approaches nor will they investigate why it takes time for a reseller to solve their issues - thinking they must be on vacation. Maybe not the case here, but not sure where the line is drawn between customers and enthusiasts.

I felt bad about dragging the hotel manager out from a family outing on the 24th of December - but not my fault if there is only one hotel manager who also managed to lock me out of my room. Again, not the case here, but I think there should be a distinction between expectations and sentiments.

While I'm sure it will be [somehow] settled, it seems like a s*storm from both sides, without even a single quote from Dave. Not sure where all this rage is coming from or going to...
I guess polarized opinions
means a successful product or campaign, regardless of the results.
As I mentioned in another thread, this is most probably coming from the unrealistic and unfulfilled expectation (=frustration) of a "close to perfection" product that had an unparalleled transparent development process. It is a new product and issues like these are bound to happen.

Another factor that contributes to this reaction is the vocal and vitriolic response that Dave would have displayed if the product was from a third party. The 121GW has become the target of the reviewers and customers, and I guess it becomes a fair game to criticize it in the same tone.
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Offline Iagash

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #477 on: January 19, 2018, 12:56:07 am »
As I mentioned in another thread, this is most probably coming from the unrealistic and unfulfilled expectation (=frustration) of a "close to perfection" product that had an unparalleled transparent development process. It is a new product and issues like these are bound to happen.

Yes of course. But I saw enough of Daves reviews to be able to imagine what he would have said about the meter.

What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies. Wtf? This is the smallest of the problems the meter has and I don't get why everybody seems so excited about this problem.

I'm more concerned with the real problems of the firmware, like sending broken records via bluetooth, missing to write loglines onto the sd-card, file corruption on the sd-card, sending plain wrong data via bluetooth and using a braindead protocol to send data via bluetooth. One part of the data is decimal coded hex digits, the other part is hex coded hex digits and half of the records are garbled, wasting probably two thirds of the small available bandwidth of bluetooth LE. Wtf?

If you find issues like that, you start wondering, what else the firmware the guys will probably have messed up.

I'm not concerned that not everything on the first batch works as expected. I'm more concerned that someone writes the firmware for the meter who makes design errors like this. Writing data to an file system and transmitting data via a serial port to a bt-dongle is no rocket science. The bluetooth transmission is CRC protected so the meter clearly writes wrong data to the module. I'm too lazy to to solder a logic analyzer to the module connection to verify this. This is Dave's or whoever's homework.

What am I to expect from someone with this track record in the future?

Dave said: "It's ready when it's ready."

I guess he didn't look to closely. He knew about the wrong data via bluetooth. The app tries to filter it out, but fails in quite some cases.
 
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #478 on: January 19, 2018, 01:15:55 am »
If you find issues like that, you start wondering, what else the firmware the guys will probably have messed up.
Exactly.

Unfortunately this is probably something Dave has had little control over, and is likely at least pissed off about it as anyone else, but for commercial reasons can't voice it as he would have done if reviewing someone else's product.
UEI have spent a lot on development and are relying on Dave to get enough sales to recoup their investment.
The number and nature of the issues reported so far do suggest something more fundamental than a few minor bugs, like generally poor design & structure, as we've seen in countless Chinese products.
Maybe another reason the manufacturer doesn't want to open source it.
One downside of easily updateable firmware is that it can lead to a "we can fix it later" attitude.
As long as there aren't any underlying hardware issues, hopefully things will get fixed in due course.   
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Offline Kean

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #479 on: January 19, 2018, 01:19:20 am »
Mike and others with NO first hand use have prattled on and attacked the product and Dave's thoughts and actions and repeated those sentiments and statements in multiple posts.  Some of these comments made seem to be more about whipping up a storm than looking for a solution.

While certainly not perfect Dave deserves the decency of some time with his family for a start then some time to go back to the manufacturer to sort out some of the issues then let us know what they have found and a path forward to improve the meter.

Sorry to intervene, but you are either unique among people or just biased in this case. People are not thinking of the Amazon delivery men/women's families when Christmas approaches nor will they investigate why it takes time for a reseller to solve their issues - thinking they must be on vacation. Maybe not the case here, but not sure where the line is drawn between customers and enthusiasts.

I felt bad about dragging the hotel manager out from a family outing on the 24th of December - but not my fault if there is only one hotel manager who also managed to lock me out of my room. Again, not the case here, but I think there should be a distinction between expectations and sentiments.

While I'm sure it will be [somehow] settled, it seems like a s*storm from both sides, without even a single quote from Dave. Not sure where all this rage is coming from or going to...
I guess polarized opinions means a successful product or campaign, regardless of the results.

You need to remember this is a Kickstarter.  It is very different to buying a finished product from Amazon, or paying a hotel for accommodation.
 

Offline SkyMaster

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #480 on: January 19, 2018, 01:32:18 am »
You need to remember this is a Kickstarter.  It is very different to buying a finished product from Amazon, or paying a hotel for accommodation.

You are right Kean. On Kickstarter you are a "backer", and not a customer. And you are taking a risk when you are backing a project.

I backed the EEVblog 121GW Multimeter.

 :)
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #481 on: January 19, 2018, 01:33:05 am »
You need to remember this is a Kickstarter.  It is very different to buying a finished product from Amazon, or paying a hotel for accommodation.
It's not reasonable to compare with typical Kickstarters - it's a product designed and manufactured by an experienced test equipment company, with significant input from someone with considerable expertise in the field. The KS wasn't started until it was pretty much ready to go.
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #482 on: January 19, 2018, 01:44:42 am »
As I mentioned in another thread, this is most probably coming from the unrealistic and unfulfilled expectation (=frustration) of a "close to perfection" product that had an unparalleled transparent development process. It is a new product and issues like these are bound to happen.

Yes of course. But I saw enough of Daves reviews to be able to imagine what he would have said about the meter.

What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies. Wtf? This is the smallest of the problems the meter has and I don't get why everybody seems so excited about this problem.
Only a fraction of people will use datalogging, while continuity is the third pillar of a DMM. That alone will draw criticism in much larger numbers, and the feedback here reflects that.

I completely agree with yours and Mike's statements regarding the firmware, but this is nothing new of products made in China. IMO, if UEI is responsive to correct the BT and datalog bugs, to enhance the autorange performance and to rethink the beeper behaviour, this will be a much welcome recovery that will certainly differentiate them from other competitors at the same league. This does not require open source firmware, which is something that will never materialize as per Dave's words.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Iagash

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #483 on: January 19, 2018, 02:04:06 am »
As long as there aren't any underlying hardware issues, hopefully things will get fixed in due course.

Yeah, but we'll probably never find out, because the people with large amounts of test equipment just make videos about autoranging speed.

I can't test this, I only have an Fluke 73III (probably one of the worst they ever made, someone gave it to me, but there is a laser trimmed resistor in there), an UNI-T 71D and a Tektronix 7834 scope.
 

Offline Kean

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #484 on: January 19, 2018, 02:17:19 am »
You need to remember this is a Kickstarter.  It is very different to buying a finished product from Amazon, or paying a hotel for accommodation.
It's not reasonable to compare with typical Kickstarters - it's a product designed and manufactured by an experienced test equipment company, with significant input from someone with considerable expertise in the field. The KS wasn't started until it was pretty much ready to go.

Agreed, this is definitely not a "typical" Kickstarter project.  But that doesn't take away from the fact that it is still a Kickstarter project, and a brand new product.
It is easy to sit back and say that the slow auto ranging should have been an obvious issue, but any one managing a business knows that things slip through the cracks.
It isn't that surprising to find a few issues, and I'm sure Dave already has UEI looking into the reports.  Better for them to now analyse these carefully than to rush out a fix.
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #485 on: January 19, 2018, 04:43:57 am »
I see a number of posts saying that the UEi 121GW meter is made in China.
I'm pretty sure its manufactured and assembled in South Korea. Can anyone confirm this?
 

Offline IanB

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #486 on: January 19, 2018, 04:46:34 am »
I'm pretty sure its manufactured and assembled in South Korea. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes, it is.
 
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Offline markb82

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #487 on: January 19, 2018, 07:54:31 am »
Loosy goosy range switch:

https://youtu.be/7E2Pjcogrho?t=5m28s

And that was April 2017, kinda disappointing it didn't 'get worked on'.  :-\



« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 08:03:44 am by markb82 »
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #488 on: January 19, 2018, 08:46:31 am »
Loosy goosy range switch:

https://youtu.be/7E2Pjcogrho?t=5m28s

And that was April 2017, kinda disappointing it didn't 'get worked on'.  :-\

Video of the same problem causing intermittent contact is posted on the "Issues" thread. Maybe something as simple as a wave washer under the circlip would provide a fix?

http://www.globalspec.com/learnmore/mechanical_components/springs/wave_washers
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #489 on: January 19, 2018, 08:48:33 am »
Loosy goosy range switch:
https://youtu.be/7E2Pjcogrho?t=5m28s
And that was April 2017, kinda disappointing it didn't 'get worked on'.  :-\

It did.
That video is from April 2016, not 2017, see the date code on the back, that video wasn't released until much later. It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch.
We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 08:50:23 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline exe

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #490 on: January 19, 2018, 09:15:20 am »
What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies.

Autoranging speed is not a cosmetic problem (for those who actually use the meter). Same for beeper, etc, these are significant usability flaws. At least for me. I think most people underrate comfort and productivity of tools. I'm glad you consider this a "minor annoyance". But there are other opinions on this.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #491 on: January 19, 2018, 09:18:09 am »
What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies.

Autoranging speed is not a cosmetic problem (for those who actually use the meter). Same for beeper, etc, these are significant usability flaws. At least for me. I think most people underrate comfort and productivity of tools. I'm glad you consider this a "minor annoyance". But there are other opinions on this.

Alright, we get it.  :horse:

No need to post on this subject any more until Dave officially says "fixed/not fixable".  :horse: :horse:

 
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Offline markb82

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #492 on: January 19, 2018, 10:39:22 pm »
It did.
That video is from April 2016, not 2017, see the date code on the back, that video wasn't released until much later. It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch.
We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.

From the video it is hard to compare.  But here is a video of my range switch dancing:

 

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #493 on: January 19, 2018, 10:53:11 pm »
What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies.

Autoranging speed is not a cosmetic problem (for those who actually use the meter). Same for beeper, etc, these are significant usability flaws. At least for me. I think most people underrate comfort and productivity of tools. I'm glad you consider this a "minor annoyance". But there are other opinions on this.
Alright, we get it.  :horse:
No need to post on this subject any more until Dave officially says "fixed/not fixable".  :horse: :horse:

And when I know, everyone will know.
It almost certainly can be improved.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #494 on: January 19, 2018, 10:55:24 pm »
Loosy goosy range switch:
https://youtu.be/7E2Pjcogrho?t=5m28s
And that was April 2017, kinda disappointing it didn't 'get worked on'.  :-\

It did.
That video is from April 2016, not 2017, see the date code on the back, that video wasn't released until much later. It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch.
We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.
At the risk of being censored,  we did discuss problems with the switch.  I wonder with it now being intermittent if they did not reduce the spring pressure.   

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #495 on: January 19, 2018, 10:56:54 pm »
It did.
That video is from April 2016, not 2017, see the date code on the back, that video wasn't released until much later. It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch.
We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.

From the video it is hard to compare.  But here is a video of my range switch dancing:



Confirmed on the two remaining units we have here. This is not right, pre-production units have never done this.
This is the last problem we would have expected.
It has been reported as the highest priority, but it's now the weekend so I don't expect an immediate response.
In any case it will take them some time to investigate I'm sure.
 

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #496 on: January 19, 2018, 11:03:35 pm »
At the risk of being censored,  we did discuss problems with the switch.  I wonder with it now being intermittent if they did not reduce the spring pressure.

Joe, I am not censoring anyone. I didn't want people constantly discussing stuff in the thread that is only for reporting and confirming issues.
Having an "issues" thread that's a 30 page long discussion kinda make it hard to find the issues for all involved...
I hope you can understand that.

And yes we improved the switch wear issue after you reported it, but the pre-production units that came after that were fine, and we have never had this "wobble" or intermittent contact issue. Not even the first "wobbly" prototype back in April 2016 had intermittent contacts. This seems to be a new issue.

 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #497 on: January 20, 2018, 12:12:09 am »
At the risk of being censored,  we did discuss problems with the switch.  I wonder with it now being intermittent if they did not reduce the spring pressure.

Joe, I am not censoring anyone. I didn't want people constantly discussing stuff in the thread that is only for reporting and confirming issues.
Having an "issues" thread that's a 30 page long discussion kinda make it hard to find the issues for all involved...
I hope you can understand that.

And yes we improved the switch wear issue after you reported it, but the pre-production units that came after that were fine, and we have never had this "wobble" or intermittent contact issue. Not even the first "wobbly" prototype back in April 2016 had intermittent contacts. This seems to be a new issue.
I assume you pulled my post when you bold texted me.  Maybe you have a different definition of censorship.  Really no matter.   I certainly understand that it is your site and you are free to do as you wish with it.   

On the switch,  I just wanted to be clear that your comment
Quote
"We have had no problems with the range switch since then.
  was not entirely true.  I will say that I never saw the wobble on the prototype.  If people watch the video where I had repaired it, I ran it outside the case.  The rotating spring contact holder what held in place by its locking barbs where it fits through the board.   Even then I don't think it was intermittent.    This is why I wonder if they had loosened the tension maybe to help reduce the wear.  If so, maybe they went too far with it.  Hard to say but it would be easy enough to compare them at some point.    With you unboxing a fair number of them to test, I would think if there was a major problem you would have come across it. 

Also, just an FYI, with as many meters as I have looked at, I have ran into problem with switches not working right from the factory.  One was a CEM.  I showed some pictures of it where one of the wiper contacts was lower than all the rest.  The plastic that it fits over was a bit wider for some reason spreading out the spring causing it to ride a little low.  A razor blade solved that one.   People seem to expect a lower level of quality from CEM.   They are a bit of a hit an miss company from what I see and it explains why they get a bad reputation.   

Online EEVblog

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #498 on: January 20, 2018, 12:40:49 am »
I assume you pulled my post when you bold texted me.  Maybe you have a different definition of censorship.  Really no matter.   I certainly understand that it is your site and you are free to do as you wish with it.   

I deleted a few non-relevant posts in the other thread trying to tidy it up, they contained nothing of importance.
I am NOT censoring anyone, say whatever you want in this thread or the main discussion thread, but PLEASE don't discuss things in the Issues thread, is that too much to ask?
I am trying to keep the Issues thread clean so that it contains a reasonably concise list of the issues and confirmations. UEi are reading this thread, I do not want them (and us) to have to look through a hundred page thread to reference the issues.

Quote
On the switch,  I just wanted to be clear that your comment
Quote
"We have had no problems with the range switch since then.
  was not entirely true.  I will say that I never saw the wobble on the prototype.  If people watch the video where I had repaired it, I ran it outside the case.  The rotating spring contact holder what held in place by its locking barbs where it fits through the board.   Even then I don't think it was intermittent.    This is why I wonder if they had loosened the tension maybe to help reduce the wear.  If so, maybe they went too far with it.  Hard to say but it would be easy enough to compare them at some point.    With you unboxing a fair number of them to test, I would think if there was a major problem you would have come across it. 

I'll repeat again, we had several more revisions after your unit, and none of them had any issues with the switch. This seems to be an entirely new issue in the production units.
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #499 on: January 20, 2018, 12:56:51 am »
Dave has confirmed the switch wobble is causing an issue, confirmed on the "Issues" thread.

I hope Dave will update us all on the switch and firmware solutions as soon as he has an idea, (discussed with UEi) the course of action to take.

I think an in-depth update via the EEV Blog channel would be much appreciated by all?
 


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