Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 44206 times)

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Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #400 on: February 14, 2019, 08:48:54 am »
You can remove that cable, put everything back together, and the box will function normally (throwing a fan error on startup that can be ignored).  The box in this setup (obviously) may not meet specs, particularly on higher ranges and any digitize mode.

If fanless operation only effects the accuracy and does have a permanent effect, then can you please, pretty please add an option to the firmware to turn it off? I'm sure that your internal team will be worried about the unit being out of spec  in this mode but this feature can be hidden (reached only via the TSP interface for example), unit can warn you about the accuracy loss with a flashing red screen that requires triple "I understand" clicks, there may be a always visible small note in the corner of the screen and the device can return to the normal operation on each restart. But at least for some of us the accurate readings is not a requirement all the time. While developing an application for it, for example, I need to keep the device on mostly doing nothing but occasionally running my screen script code while I need to endure the constant sound coming from it all the time.
Unfortunately that's not possible with the current design.  Firmware can tell the fan to be on High or Low (It's on Low all the time right now), but there isn't any method that would allow the fan to be turned off completely, it would require, I'm told, a significant amount of work.  Believe me, we know people don't like fans, and we have these instruments on our desks all day too (you should hear the fan required for the original 4200!).  The fan was actually added pretty late in development, the team thought the DMM wouldn't need it at first, but when it wasn't meeting specs a fan had to be added. 

Another, less invasive but maybe more risky method would be to stick a paper clip or something in the fan port and jam it.  The fan is currently operating just above its stall speed so it probably would take quite some time to burn up, if at all.  More likely is the fan would just have reduced life (the unit itself would be fine, only the fan would have a reduced life).

I'm having trouble with two settings in DMM6500:

1) Although the manual implies that in the voltage ratio function the sense input range can be adjusted, I could not find any way to change it other than the 10V range it default to. Has anyone figured out if this is possible and how?

Here an excerpt from the manual
Quote
The SENSE terminals are used as the reference voltage (VS). The SENSE terminals can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, and 10 V ranges.

The INPUT terminals provide the voltage (Vi) to be compared against the reference voltage. They can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, 10 V, 100 V, and 1000 V ranges.
Ahh, you've found another manual error.  You cannot change the 65xx sense range, it's always 10V.  That section was copied from the DMM7510 manual which does have multiple sense ranges.  That's been fixed for the next manual update.

2) The graph axis system indeed needs some love. Besides the non-round division values (e.g. 11.2mv/div) I'm also having trouble plotting two traces with the same scale but different offsets. I want to see two traces one with 10V mean other with 7V mean be plotted centered on the same grid with 10mv/div so that I can compare how they change in time. It feels like if you set the Y-Axis scale method to "OFF" you should be able to change the "scale" and "minimum position" values in the in Graph/Scale tab because those fields change into buttons so that you can click and enter numbers. But once you enter the numbers for the first trace and switch to the other trace to set its values, the buttons are replaced with read-only text fields and you can't get the buttons back until you change the Y-Axis method to something else and back to OFF again. Currently the value you entered for the first trace is applied to the all other traces. I hope in the upcoming firmwares it'd be possible to set the scaling and offsetting values of each trace manually.
Huh, the buttons disappearing is definitely a bug (fixed in the dev firmware), but the fact that each buffer copies the others scale settings might be intended...  I gather that's not the behavior you want or expect though, I would think each buffer's scale should be independent too.  I put in bug report on that.  You can indeed manipulate the graph in much more detail with TSP commands (and it won't copy settings between buffers, so that probably is a bug).  The graph commands are part of the display API though so they're not publicly documented as of yet.  As a workaround, you can use the touch screen to edit each graph's scale independently, but when you switch buffers it will still copy the settings of the last buffer you were on.

Finally, another quick firmware release went out, 1.0.04.  I don't think it addresses anything that's been mentioned here but the release notes/downloads are at these links:
DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes
DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes

EDIT: Oh! A little preview feature I think you all will like: The latest dev firmware is much stricter about what values are allowed for the graph divisions.  It now snaps to whole numbers like 4uV/div or 200mV/div rather than things like 2.448uV/div or 406.3mV/div.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 09:23:35 am by Brad O »
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #401 on: February 14, 2019, 03:29:30 pm »
Finally, another quick firmware release went out, 1.0.04.  I don't think it addresses anything that's been mentioned here but the release notes/downloads are at these links:
DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes
DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes
The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:
Code: [Select]
Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade
Fresh fat32-stick's, two tested.
All reset, also without main-power for a while.
 
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Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #402 on: February 14, 2019, 09:01:48 pm »
...
The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:
Code: [Select]
Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade
Fresh fat32-stick's, two tested.
All reset, also without main-power for a while.

It installed for me. I upgraded from 1.0.03.c
Can you check via MENU -> Reading Buffers if there aren't big buffers stored on the system?
When you click on the defbuffer1 button, you see all the buffers stored on your meter. You can delete the non-standard ones.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #403 on: February 14, 2019, 09:28:00 pm »
...
It installed for me. I upgraded from 1.0.03.c
Can you check via MENU -> Reading Buffers if there aren't big buffers stored on the system?
When you click on the defbuffer1 button, you see all the buffers stored on your meter. You can delete the non-standard ones.
Thanks for your response. Yes, i emptied defbuffer1, deleted all other buffers manually.
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #404 on: February 14, 2019, 10:25:00 pm »
Can you open the downloaded firmware file in an archive program like 7-ZIP? It's an archive that contains a mix of other archives and a txt file.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #405 on: February 14, 2019, 10:43:32 pm »
Can you open the downloaded firmware file in an archive program like 7-ZIP? It's an archive that contains a mix of other archives and a txt file.
Yes. Zip-File is original, "ki_DMM6500_v1_0_04b.upg" used.
I'm a slightly older IT-consultant and application-programmer since the beginning of the ┬ÁP-aera in the heterogeneous environment. ;)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 10:46:16 pm by hwj-d »
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #406 on: February 15, 2019, 12:23:46 am »
I have no further hints and tricks then :).
my experience: I used a 1 GB USB, formatted as FAT. The .upg file is the only file on the drive.
I have no autostart or other scripts stored in the meter's persistent storage
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #407 on: February 15, 2019, 12:49:32 am »
That's a problem from the dmm itself.

Apparently, in my opinion there is actually no method to put the device into a cleaned ground state. For example, after all the reset methods described, there are still scripts in memory that you have created yourself (small, no autoexec). these are not causing the problem, but they show that the writable memory is actually not completely erased.
 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #408 on: February 15, 2019, 02:50:02 am »
Finally, another quick firmware release went out, 1.0.04.  I don't think it addresses anything that's been mentioned here but the release notes/downloads are at these links:
DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes
DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes
The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:
Code: [Select]
Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade
Fresh fat32-stick's, two tested.
All reset, also without main-power for a while.
Did you manually power cycle the box immediately before trying to upgrade?  Manually deleting buffers and variables might not free up enough memory for an upgrade due to fragmentation of the memory space I've talked about before.  Engineering is working on a solution to that for the next firmware, but currently, memory can still become fragmented and limit the maximum size of memory objects.  Restarting the box is the way to completely reset the volatile memory. 

Scripts are stored in non-volatile flash memory so they purposefully persist when you power cycle the instrument.  When the box starts up, they're loaded into volatile memory so you can immediately access them from a remote interface or from the front panel.  How many scripts do you have on your box?  What does it say for available space at the bottom left of MENU > Manage (under Scripts)?
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #409 on: February 15, 2019, 03:46:49 am »
Finally, another quick firmware release went out, 1.0.04.  I don't think it addresses anything that's been mentioned here but the release notes/downloads are at these links:
DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes
DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes
The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:
Code: [Select]
Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade
Fresh fat32-stick's, two tested.
All reset, also without main-power for a while.
Did you manually power cycle the box immediately before trying to upgrade?  Manually deleting buffers and variables might not free up enough memory for an upgrade due to fragmentation of the memory space I've talked about before.  Engineering is working on a solution to that for the next firmware, but currently, memory can still become fragmented and limit the maximum size of memory objects.  Restarting the box is the way to completely reset the volatile memory. 
That's the first what I do, yes.

Quote
Scripts are stored in non-volatile flash memory so they purposefully persist when you power cycle the instrument.  When the box starts up, they're loaded into volatile memory so you can immediately access them from a remote interface or from the front panel.  How many scripts do you have on your box?  What does it say for available space at the bottom left of MENU > Manage (under Scripts)?
At last only autoexec, without something i wrote in to that.
92% memory free.
Should I delete autoexec?
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #410 on: February 15, 2019, 04:18:25 am »
Ok. I got it.
Upgrading successed.

In the autoexec are something like this:
Code: [Select]
-- set up reading buffers
KSBuffer = buffer.make(5000000,buffer.STYLE_STANDARD)
KSBuffer.fillmode = buffer.FILL_CONTINUOUS
That was something to much.

But: i deleted and emptied all buffers before upgrading, after powecycling, several times, except buffer defbuffer1, which i only emtied. The memory free shows always 92% as now after upgrading too.

But problem solved after deleting that autoexec.
 
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Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #411 on: February 15, 2019, 05:33:14 am »
Ok. I got it.
Upgrading successed.

In the autoexec are something like this:
Code: [Select]
-- set up reading buffers
KSBuffer = buffer.make(5000000,buffer.STYLE_STANDARD)
KSBuffer.fillmode = buffer.FILL_CONTINUOUS
That was something to much.

But: i deleted and emptied all buffers before upgrading, after powecycling, several times, except buffer defbuffer1, which i only emtied. The memory free shows always 92% as now after upgrading too.

But problem solved after deleting that autoexec.
Aha!  So as soon as you start up the instrument, ~75% of your memory was taken up by a reading buffer.  So, yes, deleting that buffer should've freed up all that space again, except for the memory fragmentation.  Like I said, that's something we're working on so now engineering can use your autoexec code as an usage example, thank you!  Glad you were able to upgrade!
 
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Offline NANDBlog

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #412 on: February 20, 2019, 09:11:59 pm »
I have a DMM6500 now on my desk, a colleague of mine bought one to the company. This is a seriously confusing and disappointing bit of gear. First of all, I had a BSOD on it. And the entire digitize and trigger model is just complicated as hell. With some settings, the screen just start blinking, showing random data. With some other settings it takes measurement every now and then, and it just extrapolates the data between it? Or it shows me that the maximum number of samples can only be 7870020 samples, and then doesnt fill in this number into the input field?
It feels like this was made by robots, who wanted to tick all the boxes, but no real though put into how to use a meter.
 

Offline Octane

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #413 on: February 20, 2019, 11:46:45 pm »
Update the firmware to the latest version and RTFM. This is a very complex and powerful meter. I think they did a great job implementing all those features on a limited UI (screen-size, mainly).

BR,
Michael
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #414 on: February 21, 2019, 12:19:45 am »
My experience is different. I found it easy to get started.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #415 on: February 21, 2019, 12:23:15 am »

I have a DMM6500 now on my desk, a colleague of mine bought one to the company. This is a seriously confusing and disappointing bit of gear. First of all, I had a BSOD on it. And the entire digitize and trigger model is just complicated as hell. With some settings, the screen just start blinking, showing random data. With some other settings it takes measurement every now and then, and it just extrapolates the data between it? Or it shows me that the maximum number of samples can only be 7870020 samples, and then doesnt fill in this number into the input field?
It feels like this was made by robots, who wanted to tick all the boxes, but no real though put into how to use a meter.
This dmm has a whole new approach as we know of the previous conventional type with measuring instruments of this type and offers far more possibilities. This gives rise to the problem of the gui developers of casting these into a mould which, on the one hand, must be consistent in terms of its technical possibilities and, on the other hand, must be as conclusive as possible from the user's point of view.

This results in two learning curves
 - for the developers to integrate these comprehensive new possibilities into the matching gui and api,
 - for the user to discover this new concept to make it usable for oneself by sorting out this mistakes despite the imperfect previous named path.

That is the compromise to be entered into, which we have to go together with such kind of measuring instruments.

We remember that gui and programming interfaces of measuring instruments of the previous conventional type have undergone decades of development on both sides.

Another compromise is the much cheaper technical implementation compared to his bigger brother DMM7510.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 12:41:19 am by hwj-d »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #416 on: February 21, 2019, 02:09:17 am »
NANDBlog
I had the DMM7510 before already and therefore the DMM6500 was easy to use for me!
May be you should watch a few videos online to get you started.
After a little learning curve, this instrument is easy to use.

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #417 on: February 21, 2019, 03:25:11 am »
I have a DMM6500 now on my desk, a colleague of mine bought one to the company. This is a seriously confusing and disappointing bit of gear. First of all, I had a BSOD on it. And the entire digitize and trigger model is just complicated as hell. With some settings, the screen just start blinking, showing random data. With some other settings it takes measurement every now and then, and it just extrapolates the data between it? Or it shows me that the maximum number of samples can only be 7870020 samples, and then doesnt fill in this number into the input field?
It feels like this was made by robots, who wanted to tick all the boxes, but no real though put into how to use a meter.
Well, digitizing and the trigger model are the most complicated topics so that's pretty understandable you'd have trouble with them.  I gave a small walkthrough of a basic trigger model back in this post, it might help you feel more comfortable with how the blocks work.  There are also a few videos on the digitize functions if you search YouTube.  This video on the DMM6500's webpage explains most of the common settings while performing a short demo.

If you think there's some explanation lacking in our documentation though I can try explaining it here or put out a new video that goes over it if it's complicated enough.
 

Online cozdas

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #418 on: February 21, 2019, 06:32:32 pm »
EDIT: Oh! A little preview feature I think you all will like: The latest dev firmware is much stricter about what values are allowed for the graph divisions.  It now snaps to whole numbers like 4uV/div or 200mV/div rather than things like 2.448uV/div or 406.3mV/div.

Cool, looking forward to it!

While you're on it, can you also please make sure that the graph Y axis numbers show the informative, distinct digits rather than the common thus non-informative ones? Check the attached images: here the Y range is less than 100uV though in the current implementation Y axis numbers show the 10mv, 1mv and 100uV digits, totally missing the important part. Something like the second image is what I'd expect to see.
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #419 on: February 21, 2019, 07:30:14 pm »
EDIT: Oh! A little preview feature I think you all will like: The latest dev firmware is much stricter about what values are allowed for the graph divisions.  It now snaps to whole numbers like 4uV/div or 200mV/div rather than things like 2.448uV/div or 406.3mV/div.

Cool, looking forward to it!

While you're on it, can you also please make sure that the graph Y axis numbers show the informative, distinct digits rather than the common thus non-informative ones? Check the attached images: here the Y range is less than 100uV though in the current implementation Y axis numbers show the 10mv, 1mv and 100uV digits, totally missing the important part. Something like the second image is what I'd expect to see.

Right. It has been pointed out for some time that the y-axis is hardly meaningful in this form.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #420 on: February 21, 2019, 07:49:56 pm »
A little tip, with many measuring points, the image becomes a little bit clearer (edit: but without peaks) if someone only lets it be displayed as line.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 07:59:13 pm by hwj-d »
 

Online cozdas

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #421 on: February 21, 2019, 08:20:14 pm »
A little tip, with many measuring points, the image becomes a little bit clearer (edit: but without peaks) if someone only lets it be displayed as line.

While I was preparing an image for the reply, you already edited your message to mention the gotcha with the line mode (missing peaks)  :-+.

I'm guessing that currently the markers are drawn on top of the lines so that when the samples per pixel count is less than one, you get lines connecting the sparse dots. But when the number of samples per pixels is greater than one, I think the averaged line should be drawn on top of the peak showing markers so that you can get more information in a single graph and the "both" mode becomes different than the "marker" mode. Something like this:

 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #422 on: February 21, 2019, 11:07:22 pm »
cozdas
I wonder how you can get these pictures, which the dmm is hardly capable of without scripting.  ;D
 
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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #423 on: February 22, 2019, 08:41:19 am »
cozdas
I wonder how you can get these pictures, which the dmm is hardly capable of without scripting.  ;D

Photoshop  ;D
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #424 on: February 22, 2019, 10:03:51 am »
cozdas
I wonder how you can get these pictures, which the dmm is hardly capable of without scripting.  ;D

Photoshop  ;D
Yeah, that's what I thought. ;D
Have seen your nice photographs, and your expirience with programming and manipulating grafical filters. :-+
 


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