new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[Robaroni]

There are new features becoming available all the time. For one of my projects input filtering and deep memory where extremely handy so I got a scope which has those features. I'm not keeping my old scopes so money isn't sitting on a shelve devaluating.

One project? So you couldn't have done it without a new scope?

You bought a scope you kept a couple of years then sold at a loss, you already lost money. Whats the ROI?

[nctnico]

There are new features becoming available all the time. For one of my projects input filtering and deep memory where extremely handy so I got a scope which has those features. I'm not keeping my old scopes so money isn't sitting on a shelve devaluating.

One project? So you couldn't have done it without a new scope?

You bought a scope you kept a couple of years then sold at a loss, you already lost money. Whats the ROI?

I design circuits for a living and for that I need tools. Remember: you need to spend money to make money. As long as the write-off on equipment is far less than the profits (in terms of time saved and/or enable to take on a project) there is no problem losing money on test equipment. I always say test equipment devaluates faster than a car and my buying strategy is adjusted accordingly.

[Robaroni]

There are new features becoming available all the time. For one of my projects input filtering and deep memory where extremely handy so I got a scope which has those features. I'm not keeping my old scopes so money isn't sitting on a shelve devaluating.

One project? So you couldn't have done it without a new scope?

You bought a scope you kept a couple of years then sold at a loss, you already lost money. Whats the ROI?

I design circuits for a living and for that I need tools. Remember: you need to spend money to make money. As long as the write-off on equipment is far less than the profits (in terms of time saved and/or enable to take on a project) there is no problem losing money on test equipment. I always say test equipment devaluates faster than a car and my buying strategy is adjusted accordingly.

Good thinking - keep telling yourself that. 

[Pinkus]

Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

Well, yes at least definitely the Owon.

The other scopes were not. To be honest: many years ago I was not ready to spend a few thousand bucks for a scope. My demands grew with my projects and as I am making money with these projects I was able to purchase better scopes which fulfil my needs better for more sophisticated projects.
As I always purchased with a discount and sold the equipment later often with profit, I could easily afford that approach. In fact any scope I purchased was purchased at least 15% below street price. I am sure I can sell my Keysight MSOX3024a any day and I will receive at least what I paid for - probably even more. So I used it literally "for free" for the last 30 month.
Thus my measurement equipment was growing with my requirements - and I frequently had newer technology at my hand - for almost no cost.
(btw: thats the positive by selecting measurement devices from respected brands: they do have a low loss of value over the time)

In retrospect: would I prefer the other alternative?
Purchasing a scope years ago which probably fulfil my needs for the next 10 years? No! That will be expensive and in reality I would start looking for new stuff after a few years anyway because something will be missing.

As I said: as I work for a living, this approach (at least for me) was the better way: I purchase what I need now and tomorrow and sell it if it does not fulfil my needs anymore to get newer and better stuff.

Note: the above applies to business related stuff. For consumer stuff for private usage this is much different. So you better purchase the best amplifier and/or speaker or camera etc. you can afford. Because then you enjoy right from the beginning. It just don't make sense to buy e.g. crappy speakers and buy new less-crappy speakers a few years later until you then end with good speakers after 20 years: you just lost 20 years with crappy stuff, paid much more at the end and you will regret you did not took the good stuff right from the beginning.

Edit: because I really was curious and wanted to know, I added up all my scope purchases and sellings (including all costs such as shipping and Ebay fees) from 2007. I did not count in the analog scope I already had before and also not the current Keysight. Result: I made 328 Euro profit between 2007 and 2015. Thus, a frequent update of some gear might even earn you money if you carefully select.

[nctnico]

Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....

That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.

[nowlan]

Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....

That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.

This! this was a loss leading exercise, that people can no longer get, nor could they outside usa.

[Robaroni]

Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

Well, yes at least definitely the Owon.

The other scopes were not. To be honest: many years ago I was not ready to spend a few thousand bucks for a scope. My demands grew with my projects and as I am making money with these projects I was able to purchase better scopes which fulfil my needs better for more sophisticated projects.
As I always purchased with a discount and sold the equipment later often with profit, I could easily afford that approach. In fact any scope I purchased was purchased at least 15% below street price. I am sure I can sell my Keysight MSOX3024a any day and I will receive at least what I paid for - probably even more. So I used it literally "for free" for the last 30 month.
Thus my measurement equipment was growing with my requirements - and I frequently had newer technology at my hand - for almost no cost.
(btw: thats the positive by selecting measurement devices from respected brands: they do have a low loss of value over the time)

In retrospect: would I prefer the other alternative?
Purchasing a scope years ago which probably fulfil my needs for the next 10 years? No! That will be expensive and in reality I would start looking for new stuff after a few years anyway because something will be missing.

As I said: as I work for a living, this approach (at least for me) was the better way: I purchase what I need now and tomorrow and sell it if it does not fulfil my needs anymore to get newer and better stuff.

Note: the above applies to business related stuff. For consumer stuff for private usage this is much different. So you better purchase the best amplifier and/or speaker or camera etc. you can afford. Because then you enjoy right from the beginning. It just don't make sense to buy e.g. crappy speakers and buy new less-crappy speakers a few years later until you then end with good speakers after 20 years: you just lost 20 years with crappy stuff, paid much more at the end and you will regret you did not took the good stuff right from the beginning.

Edit: because I really was curious and wanted to know, I added up all my scope purchases and sellings (including all costs such as shipping and Ebay fees) from 2007. I did not count in the analog scope I already had before and also not the current Keysight. Result: I made 328 Euro profit between 2007 and 2015. Thus, a frequent update of some gear might even earn you money if you carefully select.

Personally I'm not in the scope buying and selling business, did you evaluate the time and energy to buy, research and sell those scopes? Ever heard of "time is money".

OK, so you bought the RTB2004? After all this is a thread about a specific scope.

[Robaroni]

Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....

That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.

We're not price comparing here. He called the scope "crippled". I disagree.

It's not fair? So you took advantage and bought it but, even at the promo price, you don't think it's worth the money you paid?

[Robaroni]

Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....

That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.

This! this was a loss leading exercise, that people can no longer get, nor could they outside usa.

So you bought it too but don't think it's worth it?

[Hydron]

I don't want to get too involved in this argument, but I do agree that it has some limitations which if fixed would make the unit significantly more useful. These limitations could preclude it from being bought or used by some customers, so hopefully R&S makes some improvements to help both their sales, and us the users. At the same time there are significant advantages compared to similar cost instruments which will lead to it being bought by some even given it's limitations.

Regarding the use of the word "crippled", some of the decisions (e.g. limited math trace functions) do feel a bit artificial, but so does using the small 800x480 screens on every other scope under $10k in this age of cheap 1080p phones!

Having paid the launch promo price for mine I'm very happy with what I got for the money, however if I were to buy at a more standard price I'd have had a much harder look at my requirements and which offering matched them best - each brand has it's strengths and weaknesses and thus perceived value will vary greatly based on user needs.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Hi Everyone - just a quick update.  1.210 FW has been released internally and should show up on our web early next week (Monday is a holiday in Germany, so probably Tues/Wed).  It appears to mainly contain bug fixes and tweaks based on a number of your feedbacks.  However, it does not include any change to things like math.  I believe that is likely a longer term discussion internally on whether those enhancements will happen - rest assured I've passed on your inputs. 

-Rich

[bson]

Does the x3000T have benefits?  Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate.

More importantly, the 3000T has an active probe interface that the MSOX2000/RTB2000 scopes lack.  This is a pretty substantial difference, the value of which will become obvious the first time you try to figure out why an oscillator isn't working right, or sometimes doesn't start up up or remain stable...

[casinada]

You can get active probes that don't have to be powered by the scope. Sure, it is a nice feature to have. Did you check the price of those probes?

[hwj-d]

Simple question regarding the RTB2002 70Mhz with R2S-SPI extension,
wouldn't 2 channels (and bandwidth) limit SPI-decoding in some way against the 4-channel version? Is it necessary or better to have a 4-channel version for that?

[JoHr]

Simple question regarding the RTB2002 70Mhz with R2S-SPI extension,
wouldn't 2 channels (and bandwidth) limit SPI-decoding in some way against the 4-channel version? Is it necessary or better to have a 4-channel version for that?

If you can do without additional analog channels the 2-channel scope with SSPI decoding (frame decoding by clock idle time) will work as well as a regular 3-wire SPI. If yiou need addition analog channels you can either buy a 4 channel scope ( decoding SSPI will bring you two free analog channels) or you purchase the logic probe. Then no analog channel is occupied.

Bandwidth limit is applied the same way on a 2- or 4-channel scope.
Decoding works for digital channels as well as analog ones.

[hwj-d]

If you can do without additional analog channels the 2-channel scope with SSPI decoding (frame decoding by clock idle time) will work as well as a regular 3-wire SPI.
...

Thanks JoHr.
Yes that's right, 2-wire SSPI is possible.

In the meantime I have found the very detailed manual online:
RTB_UserManual_en_02.pdf

On page 121, chapter 9.2.1 - The SPI Protocol:
"A 4-channel instrument is required for full support of the SPI protocol."

So, for full 3-wire SPI, we need a third analog channel. My hope was maybe the extra trigger input in 2-channel-scope is involved in 3-wire SPI decoding.

[JoHr]

Some of the HMO-series scope used the external input for SPI decoding.

If you don´t have a big quality problem on your bus system you can use the logic channels ...

[dr.diesel]

New FW is up:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/

[mikeselectricstuff]

New FW is up:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/

Not checked it yet but if the release notes cover everything they've fixed so far that's pretty disappointing

[dr.diesel]

Not checked it yet but if the release notes cover everything they've fixed so far that's pretty disappointing

Yup, I read it twice, thought I must have missed a section somehow.

Hope this isn't an early indication of product support.

[Hydron]

Not checked it yet but if the release notes cover everything they've fixed so far that's pretty disappointing

Agreed, though I will try the new F/W tonight to see if anything was fixed but not mentioned.

Rich, can you give us some idea of the timeline and plan for further patches? I have found and reported further issues which aren't even mentioned in the release notes (even under "known issues") and there are no functional improvements in this release.

[Fgrir]

Upgrade was simple and painless, but not much in the way of fixes.  Like Hydron none of the issues I reported here are fixed or mentioned in the known issues.  Very disappointing indeed.

[Pinkus]

Rich, can you give us some idea of the timeline and plan for further patches? I have found and reported further issues which aren't even mentioned in the release notes (even under "known issues") and there are no functional improvements in this release.

This poor guy Rich has to do deal with this in his spare time (and he is only responsible for the R&S US market) where nobody from the R&S headquarter in Germany ever bothered to say hello or to comment here. I would have expected either substantial firmware improvement and function adaption to make allow the RTB2004 to shine in its market segment or at least an official comment on how R&S want to proceed/deal with our input. Instead: nothing but silence.
Imho this is pretty lame from R&S but typical for many non-customer-oriented companies (which can be found much more frequent in Europe than in the US .... which might be the reason why Rich from R&S US is present here in his spare time - btw: kudos to you Rich, we really appreciate this!).
For the R&S headquarter in Munich/Germany we -here at EEVblog- are probably to minor/unimportant to mind.... (though two people at least visited Mike .... )

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Rich, can you give us some idea of the timeline and plan for further patches? I have found and reported further issues which aren't even mentioned in the release notes (even under "known issues") and there are no functional improvements in this release.

This poor guy Rich has to do deal with this in his spare time (and he is only responsible for the R&S US market) where nobody from the R&S headquarter in Germany ever bothered to say hello or to comment here. I would have expected either substantial firmware improvement and function adaption to make allow the RTB2004 to shine in its market segment or at least an official comment on how R&S want to proceed/deal with our input. Instead: nothing but silence.
Imho this is pretty lame from R&S but typical for many non-customer-oriented companies (which can be found much more frequent in Europe than in the US .... which might be the reason why Rich from R&S US is present here in his spare time - btw: kudos to you Rich, we really appreciate this!).
For the R&S headquarter in Munich/Germany we -here at EEVblog- are probably to minor/unimportant to mind.... (though two people at least visited Mike .... )

No need to feel pity for me   

To be frank, based on what I saw in the release notes, I expected a bit more in this release too.  But please don't ever underestimate R&S' commitment to customers.  It is by far the most customer oriented company I've had the pleasure of working at.  But sometimes we take a bit longer than I'd like to make things happen.

I'll see what I can find out about the next planned update.

-Rich

[mikeselectricstuff]

From my list :
Fixed :
Wrong origin on pinch zoom when reference set to left/right
issues enabling some permutations of decodes
Left/Right time ref setting not preserved over power cycle - fixed but not mentioned in release notes

Not fixed :
Aux out setting not preserved over power cycle
UART framing doesn't work
Web interface save device settings produces empty file
user labels not shown in source selection menus