new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[Robaroni]

I have it next to my MSO3104T, but I find I only use it if I need to see more channels, look at independent triggers, or in some decode circumstances (will be more once the fix the uart decode framing bug).
The reason is simply that I find the UI so annoyingly sluggish compared to the Keysight. I'm sure that users who've only used Rigol.Tek etc. Find it OK, but once you've been using the KS for a while it just feels slow, and the intensity grading is rather less refined.

Gee, I would think it's super fast compared the "vintage" stuff you use. How does that work? And isn't that KS 8 bits?

[Hydron]

I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.

Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.

A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.

Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.

[nctnico]

This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.

Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!

[Robaroni]

I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.

Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.

A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.

Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.

Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.

[Robaroni]

This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.

Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!

 I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me? I've been using scopes since you were a star in your mother's eye. (I'm laughing here!)

[nctnico]

This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.

Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!

I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me? I've been using scopes since you were a star in your mother's eye. (I'm laughing here!)

Internet forum rule number one: don't start a pissing contest because there is always someone out there which exceeds whatever you think you have.

[Pinkus]

I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.

Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.

A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.

Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.

Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.

Well, it depends. Generally you are right: by fastidious reading the specs, some would be able to recognize the limits. However, in my opinion a $8000 scope MUST offer extended math functions and duplex serial decoder when even <$500 scopes are coming with this and many will just have expected these features and they wouldn't dream that the scope is lacking these (todays) basic features. By not even answering to these complaints here, R&S for me seems to be arrogant - maybe hoping that the ranting will fade. Generally R&S is usually not focused on single electronic engineers who spend a few thousand bucks here and there: they just care about companies and schools/universities who spend tens of thousands. It seems complaint- / problem-
 management is not one of the strengths of this company.
I was really disappointed when the list with known issues which came with the last firmware update 8 weeks ago did not show a single bugs of the many bugs which were reported here even many weeks before the new firmware came out.
Well, lets hope Markus is being able to make the product manager show a roadmap of planned firmware improvements so we know, if we can expect something from R&S or if they almost finished working on this scope and the programmers already moved to another project.
@Markus: thank you for trying to be helpful - let's hope it will be successful!

[Hydron]

I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.
Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.
A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.
Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.

Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.

Actually I was keen to get a scope with a big+hi-res screen, MSO and better front-end/sample-rate/bandwidth than my Rigol. Have a look at the competition and guess why I bought a (promo-price) RTB2k?

I have 2 other scopes which can fill in the capability gaps on the rare occasion that it's required, it's just annoying that they have to do so.

[RoGeorge]

Old Chinese proverb:
"He who seeks perfection finds failure."

For sure, the old Chinese must had been fighting with some user-friendly dragon while he said that:



 

[Robaroni]

This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.

Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!

I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me? I've been using scopes since you were a star in your mother's eye. (I'm laughing here!)

Internet forum rule number one: don't start a pissing contest because there is always someone out there which exceeds whatever you think you have.

Actually, you started the pissing contest.

I started working in electronics when I was a kid in high school at the local radio/TV repair shop, I was about 16 or 17 when I used my first scope, I'm 72 now. Got a lot of people around here who have been working in electronics the last 55 years? Would that be you?

I didn't think so....

[Robaroni]

Old Chinese proverb:
"He who seeks perfection finds failure."

For sure, the old Chinese must had been fighting with some user-friendly dragon while he said that:



 

I think he was making rice.

[ebastler]

Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.

I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me?

Double standards, anyone?

You wrote those two posts within half an hour of each other. Please make up you mind whether or not it's adequate to second-guess someone's choice of scope based on a forum post.

[Robaroni]

I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.
Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.
A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.
Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.

Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.

Actually I was keen to get a scope with a big+hi-res screen, MSO and better front-end/sample-rate/bandwidth than my Rigol. Have a look at the competition and guess why I bought a (promo-price) RTB2k?

I have 2 other scopes which can fill in the capability gaps on the rare occasion that it's required, it's just annoying that they have to do so.

Maybe you can sell it on Ebay, I think they are going for about $3.5k.

[Robaroni]

Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.

I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me?

Double standards, anyone?

You wrote those two posts within half an hour of each other. Please make up you mind whether or not it's adequate to second-guess someone's choice of scope based on a forum post.

See that word "maybe". It was a suggestion. Do I know what his needs are? No.

[mtdoc]

What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? 

It's as bad as politics and religion on this forum. I don't see that kind of fervor in discussions about power supplies or even DMMs.

As far as the RTB200x - I agree a more comprehensive update is needed - with bug fixes and expanded math functionality. I'm in no hurry personally for my current use case, but I can see that if they don't get something out in the next few months, they're risking losing all the marketing momentum they generated with their release promotions.

Kudos to Markus's presecence and efforts - I hope he can get R&S to move a bit faster.

[RoGeorge]

Actually, you started the pissing contest.

I started working in electronics when I was a kid in high school at the local radio/TV repair shop, I was about 16 or 17 when I used my first scope, I'm 72 now. Got a lot of people around here who have been working in electronics the last 55 years? Would that be you?

I didn't think so....

That post was intended to show how some users seeks perfection in their oscilloscopes, but no feature can suit each and every wish, no matter how good or how user-friendly that feature was intended to be. So, instead of perfection, some too picky users will find just failure and frustration, like in the old Chinese saying.

There was no intention to offend you, or any other specific user, and I am sorry if it did.
Please accept my apologies.

[Robaroni]

Actually, you started the pissing contest.

I started working in electronics when I was a kid in high school at the local radio/TV repair shop, I was about 16 or 17 when I used my first scope, I'm 72 now. Got a lot of people around here who have been working in electronics the last 55 years? Would that be you?

I didn't think so....

That post was intended to show how some users seeks perfection in their oscilloscopes, but no feature can suit each and every wish, no matter how good or how user-friendly that feature was intended to be. So, instead of perfection, some too picky users will find just failure and frustration, like in the old Chinese saying.

There was no intention to offend you, or any other specific user, and I am sorry if it did.
Please accept my apologies.

Please, it's nothing, no need to apologize, you're fine.

As for the scope, sometimes I wonder, everybody is an expert. The people who designed this thing are some of the brightest in the world. What? They didn't examine it, weigh different parameters? You bet they did, I've been in there.  I think the grumblers should  apply for a job at R&S just to see their reaction, these guys get to pick the cream of crop, how many people here think they are in that group?
Did R&S ask anyone here,"Hey, by  the way, what's your education and background so we can quote you in our ads?" Right! They don't even care, why should they? Sure, get field feedback but if anyone thinks they are deeply concerned about what a bunch of guys on a blog think than I hope they'll contact me, I've got a great deal going on bridges all next week!

R&S will probably sell a bucket of these to institutions and governments regardless of the comments here, let's get real!

[rsjsouza]

What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? 

It's as bad as politics and religion on this forum. I don't see that kind of fervor in discussions about power supplies or even DMMs.

mtdoc, there's a lot more functionality to get right/wrong on a scope, thus it fuels very long discussions with repetitive arguments around here. That and the fact there's now a lot more choice at a lower cost, which will increase the number of different opinions and the natural desire to share individual experiences. I have seen previous incensed discussions about DMMs, especially when discussing safety, but they tend to vanish due to the simpler nature of the issues discussed - mostly hinged on opinion (DMM ergonomics, etc.) or simple lack of irrefutable evidence (when dealing with safety).

[KE5FX]

What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? 

Here's my guess: you can build a good power supply without using one in your day-to-day life.  You probably won't, but at least you theoretically could.  That's less true for DMMs but still not entirely off-base.  While responsive performance is important, a DMM is basically the sum of its specs.

A scope, though... that's different.  If you're a tech or hands-on EE, that's how you see the world.  No one who hasn't spent hundreds of hours using an oscilloscope in anger is ever going to build a good one.  When you see a lot of flaws in an otherwise-nice piece of gear that you suspect are only there because nobody at the company ever encountered them personally, it can be rather frustrating. 

I'm not saying that applies to R&S, Keysight, Tek, Rigol or any other vendor in particular, just pointing it out as a general answer to your question.

[blacksheeplogic]

The people who designed this thing are some of the brightest in the world. What? They didn't examine it, weigh different parameters? You bet they did, I've been in there.  I think the grumblers should  apply for a job at R&S just to see their reaction, these guys get to pick the cream of crop, how many people here think they are in that group?

Being with the best and brightest don't mean it's going to be great, I've been on large projects with the brightest and best in their field. After spending ten's of million of dollars it's just another closed f'd-up project.

Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't. In this case they got it off the bench and it's going to be judged by the market not by those who worked on the project. As a product, long tern if the company determines it success or failure we may never know for sure.

[nctnico]

What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? 

A scope, though... that's different.  If you're a tech or hands-on EE, that's how you see the world.  No one who hasn't spent hundreds of hours using an oscilloscope in anger is ever going to build a good one.  When you see a lot of flaws in an otherwise-nice piece of gear that you suspect are only there because nobody at the company ever encountered them personally, it can be rather frustrating. 

That and the fact some people sunk a lot of money into an oscilloscope so it has to be good and cannot possibly ever be a lemon. Kinda like the emperor's new clothes.

[kaz911]

I have it next to my MSO3104T, but I find I only use it if I need to see more channels, look at independent triggers, or in some decode circumstances (will be more once the fix the uart decode framing bug).
The reason is simply that I find the UI so annoyingly sluggish compared to the Keysight. I'm sure that users who've only used Rigol.Tek etc. Find it OK, but once you've been using the KS for a while it just feels slow, and the intensity grading is rather less refined.

I completely agree - I only use it for some decode stuff and high sensitive stuff like microphones.

I wrote R&S guys and complained about the sluggish UI some weeks ago. My (much hated by many) TEK MDO UI is more responsive doing protocol decoding than the R&S. I find myself having to push the screen several times to get it to react when the scope is "busy". And that was by decoding some 921600 bps serial..

It really needs some TLC in the software optimisation department and maybe some focus on multi-threading optimisation.

Don't get me wrong - I like the scope and UI. But I do not like the degrading performance of the UI and the bugs not fixed yet.

And compared the Keysight 3000 is much faster than both MDO and the R&S.

[Robaroni]

I have it next to my MSO3104T, but I find I only use it if I need to see more channels, look at independent triggers, or in some decode circumstances (will be more once the fix the uart decode framing bug).
The reason is simply that I find the UI so annoyingly sluggish compared to the Keysight. I'm sure that users who've only used Rigol.Tek etc. Find it OK, but once you've been using the KS for a while it just feels slow, and the intensity grading is rather less refined.

I completely agree - I only use it for some decode stuff and high sensitive stuff like microphones.

I wrote R&S guys and complained about the sluggish UI some weeks ago. My (much hated by many) TEK MDO UI is more responsive doing protocol decoding than the R&S. I find myself having to push the screen several times to get it to react when the scope is "busy". And that was by decoding some 921600 bps serial..

It really needs some TLC in the software optimisation department and maybe some focus on multi-threading optimisation.

Don't get me wrong - I like the scope and UI. But I do not like the degrading performance of the UI and the bugs not fixed yet.

And compared the Keysight 3000 is much faster than both MDO and the R&S.

You might want to try a mouse and see if that helps.

[Robaroni]

What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? 

A scope, though... that's different.  If you're a tech or hands-on EE, that's how you see the world.  No one who hasn't spent hundreds of hours using an oscilloscope in anger is ever going to build a good one.  When you see a lot of flaws in an otherwise-nice piece of gear that you suspect are only there because nobody at the company ever encountered them personally, it can be rather frustrating. 

That and the fact some people sunk a lot of money into an oscilloscope so it has to be good and cannot possibly ever be a lemon. Kinda like the emperor's new clothes.

Do you have an RTB2K?

[Robaroni]

The people who designed this thing are some of the brightest in the world. What? They didn't examine it, weigh different parameters? You bet they did, I've been in there.  I think the grumblers should  apply for a job at R&S just to see their reaction, these guys get to pick the cream of crop, how many people here think they are in that group?

Being with the best and brightest don't mean it's going to be great, I've been on large projects with the brightest and best in their field. After spending ten's of million of dollars it's just another closed f'd-up project.

Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't. In this case they got it off the bench and it's going to be judged by the market not by those who worked on the project. As a product, long tern if the company determines it success or failure we may never know for sure.

Top people mean it has a better chance of fulfilling the design parameters. Have you ever designed a product or been on a team that brought a product to market from scratch? I have, I imagine Dave has.

OK, How many of you don't like this scope and have sold it, probably for a profit, on Ebay?

I got a relatively high end Agilent meter once, the fan noise drove me nuts, maybe my lab is quieter than most or for some reason the whine just was the wrong frequency for my ears. Doing low current testing it was sometimes on all day. I asked Agilent about it ONCE and they felt the level was not a problem.

I sold it! If something doesn't work for you it's useless, why keep it? Especially when you got a bargain on it like this scope and can make a profit. How many of you paid full price? So sell it and use the profit to get something that will work for you. How many people here who don't like this scope sold it or sent it back? I didn't see any used ones on Ebay.

I've seen a few guys, not too many, here griping about this scope being slow or whatever, well how much of your valuable time did you spend here complaining about it? Do something, your griping isn't getting you anywhere, you've told R&S what you thought, they'll fix it or for whatever reason they won't. Don't like the company, don't buy their test gear. Simple.

Do you want the problem or the solution?

What's intelligence? If you can do Laplace Transforms but you trip over your shoe laces every morning on the way to work are you intelligent? No, intelligence is the ability to constructively resolve one's problems.

You want to continue tripping over your shoe laces, have a ball!

It's a great scope, love it, I sold the scope this replaced, problem solved, end of story!