Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 319240 times)

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Online TheSteve

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No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.
I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
The two features go hand in hand for the most part. If it is targeted to compete with the Keysight DSOX2000 series then having neither feature is understandable. Both of the features are a major reason I went with the Keysight 3000 instead of the 2000.
VE7FM
 

Offline technogeeky

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Full datasheet:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf

Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)
300MHz with passive probes works. And 50R through-terminators are hardly a big deal
Quote
Protocol decoding and digital inputs optional

<sigh> Such a shame that  scope manufacturers continue to think that protocol decode is optional. Especially when less useful things like FFT are typically standard.

mike:

I do understand arguments for and against this model. For instance, with the Tek USB3 spectrum analyzer, they sell an extremely powerful device and "give away" their software with the 17 basic measurements such a device can make. Then all of the fancier options and decodes cost money feature-by-feature until you're many thousands above the original price. Fine. I understand. Some of those features are downright awesome, and they are probably very difficult to implement properly.


But we're talking about protocol decoding. This is not rocket surgery. If I gave this oscilloscope, a pair of headphones, and a 12-pack of red bull to a 2nd or 3rd undergraduate computer science student they could knock out these protocol features in a weekend. The only reason that such features are still able to be sold as options is because the hardware is locked out against end-user programming. If someone made one of these oscilloscopes with an API, not only would protocol decode (and probably many other features) be available to everyone for free in the first week, by a month it would probably be capable of tons of other cool things that the manufacturer hasn't yet even imagined.

There is still a huge disconnect with the FOSS and the electronics hardware and test equipment sectors. FOSS isn't perfect, and it's not for everyone. But it's exactly the markets like hobbyists, semi-professionals, enthusiasts which have benefitted and contributed the most to projects in this sector. And it's exactly the same people who would stand to benefit here.


It's a bit of a shame none of the test equipment manufacturers have the inclination to stand up and innovate in this sector. It's not like this would lead to more effective reverse engineering of the hardware either. There is literally nothing to lose. Almost none of the IP that these companies have implemented in product are totally in the software domain.
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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My point is simply that pretty much everything that you're going to poke a scope into these days has at least one of I2C, SPI or UART.
A scope is a general-purpose test instrument, and as such, should include features that are commonly needed as standard.
You wouldn't expect features like zoom, pulse-width trigger, holdoff, USB storage, PC connectivity, roll mode etc. to be optional.
I contend that it is high time that serial decode & trigger should be a standard feature to be expected in any scope that claims to be a general-purpose unit. If one major manufacturer did it, the others would follow. I am slightly disappointed that R&S has not been that manufacturer.

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Wfms/s found to be 50,000
But some questions still:
Trigger rearm time?
Trigger rearm time, when offloading to segmented memory?
From https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB-K15_RTM-K15_Fast_ac_en_3607-1220-92_v0200.pdf
Quote
History and segmented memory
Equipped with the R&S®RTB-K15 and the R&S®RTM-K15
options, the R&S®RTB2000 and the R&S®RTM2000 of-
fer a history function with a segmented memory of
160/460 Msample per channel that is unique in this class,
covering both analog and digital channels. The memory
can be divided into several steps (see table). When the
ultra-segmented mode is activated, the blind time on the
R&S®RTM2000 is reduced to less than 5 ?s.
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Offline agdr

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Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2017, 12:41:41 pm »
...no separate Y controls...

Some feedback, that missing feature is the #1 reason I've recently ruled out a LeCroy Wavesurfer 30x4 for the next scope.  I'm sure the multiplexed vertical channels work well, but there is no escaping the fact that it is one more button press to make a channel setting change that I don't have to make with separate controls.  I would much prefer the scope be longer/wider or the controls smaller, whatever it takes, to get the separate channel controls. 

But definitely Kudos on the big screen!  The tiny 8.5 inch screen on the Keysight (Agisight?) 3000T series has been one of the show stoppers there so far, along with the teeny tiny memory.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 12:45:29 pm by agdr »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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I wonder what exactly this means -
Quote
Special display mode
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
Considering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.
Describing the different color maps means its probably the false color style display for eye diagrams, a very welcome feature to make intensity graded displays clearer.
That's what I'd have hoped, but as it would be such good eye-candy, why are they not showing it in the datasheet or brochure ?

From the User manual :
Quote
Waveform Color
Selects the color scale for the display of the waveform. Each scale comprises a set of
colors, where each color represents a certain frequency of occurrence.
Vertical Setup

"Temperature" Display in temperature colors. Blue corresponds to rare occurrences
of the samples, while white indicates frequent ones.
"Rainbow" Display in rainbow colors. Blue corresponds to rare occurrences of
the samples, while red indicates frequent ones.
"Fire" Display in fire colors. Yellow corresponds to rare occurrences of the
samples, while red indicates frequent ones.
"Default" Displays the waveform in its default monochrome color.

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Offline BloodyCactus

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wonder if I should not have just bought my hmo1202.... ohwell, done is done I guess!
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Offline EEVblog

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wonder if I should not have just bought my hmo1202.... ohwell, done is done I guess!

Sell it before people catch wind of the new one?
 

Offline irakandjii

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Dang

I read the specifications, got excited!  Looked up pricing in CDN $.  4 channel with MSO, memory and decodes >$5000.  Sighed and let the day dream fade.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Will you sue Dave if he/someone here attempts to hack it? Or is R&S presence to somehow make the while situation less uneasy? Looks like a nice scope but this price deflation isn't happening, which is a shame.

Given that R&S are the only company to ever approach me to have hack material removed from the website, I'd be willing to bet they would care.
All the more reason to do it  :P
(BTW, they never did get back to me on exact which posts violated their copyright...)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Pricing is on Farnell
http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&st=rtb20&selectedCategoryId=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%403ebc3ebc&pageSize=25&showResults=true
All product listings show 16 digital channels, but knowing Farnell this may be an error, or could be only MSO products listed.
70M 2ch GBP1088

I'm pretty sure the digital channel are optional extra.
I have a ton of material on this scope, let me check...
 

Offline EEVblog

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BTW, they have direct PDF comparison sheet against:
LeCroy WaveAce 2000
Rigol MSO2000A
Tek TBS2000
Tek MSO2000B
Keysight MSOX2000A

That tell you who they think their competition is, or they are too scared to compare to any others?
 

Offline EEVblog

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The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Quote
Ordering information
Step 1: choose youroscilloscope model
Two-channel model: R&S®RTB2002
Four-channel model: R&S®RTB2004
Included accessories: All models include the R&S®RT-ZP03 single-ended passive probe for each channel, power cord and 3-year warranty.
Step 2: choose yourbandwidth option
70 MHz bandwidth
standard for two-channel and four-channel models
100 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B221 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B241 for R&S®RTB2004
200 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B222 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B242 for R&S®RTB2004
300 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B223 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B243 for R&S®RTB2004
Step 3: choose your options and accessories
Software options
Triggering and decoding
R&S®RTB-K1 I2C/SPI
R&S®RTB-K2 UART/RS-232/422/485
R&S®RTB-K3 CAN/LIN
History and segmented memory
R&S®RTB-15
Hardware options
R&S®RTB-B1 mixed signal upgrade for non-MSO models, 250 MHz
R&S®RTB-B6 arbitrary waveform generator
Accessories
R&S®RTB-Z1 plastic front cover
R&S®RTB-Z3 soft carrying bag
R&S®ZZA-RTB2K rackmount kit
 

Offline EEVblog

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One interesting thing is that they deliberately are targeting hobbyists in their marketing and mention Arduino, Rpi etc.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2017, 01:44:31 pm »
No separate Y controls  :--

You can't have the bi 10.1" screen, 4 separate Y controls, and a small bench scope, something has to give,

In an internal marketing document they describe:
"Bigger display size expectation/ better form factor (aging engineers, bench space at premium)"
 

Offline EEVblog

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Pricing I have says US$1899 for the base model.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Also noticed 1mv/div without bandwidth limitation.

Correct. Full bandwith 1mV and 10 bit ADC. very nice.
 

Offline Someone

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BTW, they have direct PDF comparison sheet against:
LeCroy WaveAce 2000
Rigol MSO2000A
Tek TBS2000
Tek MSO2000B
Keysight MSOX2000A

That tell you who they think their competition is, or they are too scared to compare to any others?
The low end Lecroy 3000 is an outlier amongst the price class. But all those scopes above with this new R&S model offer some particular value to the customer, none are stupid purchases or particularly poor value if chose for their strengths (except possibly the Lecroy 2000)
 

Offline EEVblog

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I believe the vertical knob rings light up in the different channel colours when you select it, nice touch.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Quote
LAN and display over Ethernet shipped standard
 

Offline EEVblog

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They could have at least picked a signal with an anomaly for the Annotation marketing  ::)

 
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Offline EEVblog

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Porn shot

 
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Offline EEVblog

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Chipies

 


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