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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Flinstone on March 14, 2017, 07:05:56 am

Title: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Flinstone on March 14, 2017, 07:05:56 am
Hello folks - R&S is launching a new MSOX game changer - killer scope - likely at Embedded World - Nurnberg 2017 in Germany

R&S already placed some info on their public site:
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rtb_1/RTB_GettingStarted_en_02.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rtb_1/RTB_GettingStarted_en_02.pdf)
datasheet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0)



First impressions are very positive, good screen, good interface and the little features like booting up is pretty quick.
The wavegen is powerful and as you'd expect from a scope with a 10 bit ADC, the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.

It comes with advanced features - rather low cost - it is a no brainer ...
pricing and further info:
http://be.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?pageSize=25&st=RTB2002&catalogId=15001&categoryId=700000027006&langId=32&storeId=10154 (http://be.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?pageSize=25&st=RTB2002&catalogId=15001&categoryId=700000027006&langId=32&storeId=10154)

More info can be found here:  https://www.scope-of-the-art.com/en/


Yabba Dabba Doo !

Flinstone
55 Cobblestone Road
Bedrock
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 07:16:59 am
Dead link.
I was promised one "before release" but they're cutting it a bit fine now...
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 14, 2017, 07:28:44 am
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=299111;image)
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 07:31:11 am
No separate Y controls  :--
But plenty of buttons :-+

Looks like the touch menus etc. are at the top of the screen, not the bottom.  Not ideal (screen obscured by hand, fatigue) but maybe configurable?
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Arjan Emm on March 14, 2017, 07:33:33 am
Link works for me. Datasheet is 50 pages,  first 33 pages are safety instructions in multiple languages. You got to be kidding me...

Edit, All 50 pages are  just safety regulations really.
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 14, 2017, 07:36:28 am
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.

Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 14, 2017, 07:44:12 am
Dead link.
I was promised one "before release" but they're cutting it a bit fine now...
Hi Mike - I know some about the scopes going out for review (even outside the US).  There ended up being a mixup in shipping and it sounds like distributor stocking units were prioritized first (the blogger units should have gone first or in parallel at least).  My understanding is the blogger units should be going out this week (I got my fedex number today for the units I'm sending on).  I'll check on the status of yours and have them get in contact with you. 

In the meantime, if you have any questions, don't hesitate to PM me.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 07:46:11 am
Link works for me. Datasheet is 50 pages,  first 33 pages are safety instructions in multiple languages. You got to be kidding me...

Edit, All 50 pages are  just safety regulations really.
Link edited or site updated.

Safety info is pretty ridiculous - they could at least have deleted the irrelevant stuff about lasers, RF hazards etc.

2.5gsps bandwidth, so 250? 350? 500MHz ?

Ext trigger on a 4ch scope is unusual  - might very occasionally be useful on the non MSO version, especially if there is trig view.

And what;s with the (presumably) gold-plated BNCs...

Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 14, 2017, 07:47:04 am
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.

Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
Significantly lower, but I'd better not post until it's the 14th my time  8)  I'll put up full pricing tomorrow (for the US) if folks would like.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 14, 2017, 07:49:58 am
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.

Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
Significantly lower, but I'd better not post until it's the 14th my time  8)  I'll put up full pricing tomorrow (for the US) if folks would like.

-Rich

I'm excited  ;) Just recently saved up money for a new scope, who knows where they'll go.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 07:58:31 am
with gesture control ...
For some reason I'm reminded of Bob Widlar...  What would you want a scope to do in response to this gesture?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZWtU43b__t4/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 08:01:02 am
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.

Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
Significantly lower,
"Entry cost" presumably.... Looks like at least logic and wavegen are options
Interesting the bandwidth is not printed on the front panel, so presumably some upgrade path like everyone else.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 14, 2017, 08:02:32 am
So a $800 entry cost for the basic stripped down scope with 50 MHz and no options? Then $1000 for upgrades? I see where this is going.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Yansi on March 14, 2017, 08:04:15 am
I don't see anything game changing there. Just another scope for snobs with gold BNCs. But I keep myself prepared.

It would be more gamechanging, if those chinese manufacturers could at least once produce a DSO with usable firmware rich of features - as their hardware is mostly decent, unlike the FW, which always kills it.
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 14, 2017, 08:05:16 am
No separate Y controls  :--
But plenty of buttons :-+

Looks like the touch menus etc. are at the top of the screen, not the bottom.  Not ideal (screen obscured by hand, fatigue) but maybe configurable?
The menus at the top are shortcuts (similar to our toolbar on the RTO/RTE family).  They are configurable.  The main menu is on the righthand side - it pops up but then goes away to allow the waveform to use the full display.  It also has the light pipes around the volt/div knob - no separate Y controls, but relatively straight forward which channel you are changing (and allowed the massive display).  I'll be curious to hear your feedback after using them.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: cheeseit on March 14, 2017, 08:08:53 am
Sounds interesting and looks very stylish. Looking forward to see the pricing of scope and options. Maybe entry level pricing for R&S but surely must be more than $500.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 14, 2017, 08:16:38 am
From Googling a bit I found this snippet, translated from Chinese (mandarin?):

"The R & S®RTB2000 oscilloscope has a bandwidth of 70MHz, 100MHz, 200MHz and 300Hz, providing up to 2. 5 Gs / s sampling rate and 10 M sample storage depth. 10.1 inch display"
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 08:17:50 am
Full datasheet:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf)

Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)
10 bit ADC
10Mpts per channel (but it seems to be shared with the digital channels so caveat emptor)
Peak detect acquisition mode included
Protocol decoding and digital inputs optional

If R&S sticks to their usual (insane) option pricing then I strongly doubt the bigger screen makes up for the price difference compared to Asian offerings.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 14, 2017, 08:19:34 am
So a $800 entry cost for the basic stripped down scope with 50 MHz and no options? Then $1000 for upgrades? I see where this is going.
I should have been more clear.  This is a 2000-class scope in pricing - so it will start well below $3,000, but there will be different price points beyond that.  Think pricing similar to Keysight's 2000X and Tek's DPO2000.  Definitely won't be for every hobbyist, but the value it brings is very high.

BTW - the best part (IMHO) of this scope hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread.  It was mentioned in another thread though ;D

-Rich

Edit:  nctnico mentioned it while I was typing.  It has a R&S designed 10-bit ADC.  Unusual for this class of scope, especially at these sample rates.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 14, 2017, 08:21:31 am
Manual up already! I see 8 upgrade options..

1. Mixed signal option, additional 16 logic channels
2. Waveform generator and 4-bit pattern generator
3. Bandwith upgrades, 100 MHz, 200 MHz, 300 MHz
4. I2C triggering and decoding
5. UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 triggering and decoding
6. CAN triggering and decoding
7. LIN triggering and decoding
8. History and segmented memory
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 08:23:21 am
Full datasheet:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf)

Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)
300MHz with passive probes works. And 50R through-terminators are hardly a big deal
Quote
Protocol decoding and digital inputs optional

<sigh> Such a shame that  scope manufacturers continue to think that protocol decode is optional. Especially when less useful things like FFT are typically standard.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 08:27:04 am
Now calculate the impedance of a passive probe at 300MHz. The signal gets loaded so much that you won't get a decent representation of what signal is actually there. Feedthroughs are also nothing more than a band aid because the scope's input capacitance will screw things up.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: voltsandjolts on March 14, 2017, 08:27:23 am
Just don't mention hacking OK.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 08:34:44 am
Pricing is on Farnell
http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&st=rtb20&selectedCategoryId=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%403ebc3ebc&pageSize=25&showResults=true (http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&st=rtb20&selectedCategoryId=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%403ebc3ebc&pageSize=25&showResults=true)

All product listings show 16 digital channels, but knowing Farnell this may be an error, or could be only MSO products listed.
70M 2ch GBP1088

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 14, 2017, 08:44:28 am
Talking about contests here, this new R&S scope at least wins one price: Ugliest scope of the century :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 14, 2017, 08:47:19 am
Hm, no real math? I see 4 wfm math operations in manual: +-*/
Positioned as high end EDU scope... is +-*/ all they teach in schools nowdays?  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 08:51:30 am
Talking about contests here, this new R&S scope at least wins one price: Ugliest scope of the century :)
For you they'll include this tea-cozy to cover the scope when not in use:
(https://img0.etsystatic.com/105/1/8245084/il_340x270.1000379528_97jv.jpg) :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 08:54:49 am
From datasheet, looks like two decodes, but UART TX and RX count as 1 each, as do MISO/MOSI unlike  MSOX3000 which will do TX+RX as only one of the 2 available decodes
 
Not entirely clear of segmented is an option - they mention "history" feature but can't tell if this is another name for segmented or something more.

No sign of Nth edge burst trigger  :--
2- channel XYY mode - not sure I can think of a use for it but could do some nice demos..
UART decode user baudrate up to 32Mbaud  :-+
SPI decode up to 32 bits  :-+ DSOX1000 only does 16 ( can't remember of MSOX3000 does more)

Colour "rainbow" intensity display looks interesting.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 14, 2017, 08:55:52 am
The $750 I saved up won't cut it, not even close! Maybe next time Rohde &S.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 09:10:02 am
Option pricing at Farnell
Wavegen GBP609.
MSO GBP609
I2C+SPI £418
UART £418
History + Segmented  £609  :scared: :scared:

Unless there are some good promos,   ( or other approaches  ;) ) these seem WAY overpriced.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 14, 2017, 09:17:00 am
Wfms/s found to be 50,000
But some questions still:
Trigger rearm time?
Trigger rearm time, when offloading to segmented memory?
FFT points?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 09:19:47 am
 :wtf: For less than the price of the options alone you can buy a GW Instek MSO2204 which offers more functionality.
So yeah, unless you can hack the 70MHz base model into a fully optioned 300MHz one this scope is definitely doomed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on March 14, 2017, 09:28:25 am
Will you sue Dave if he/someone here attempts to hack it? Or is R&S presence to somehow make the while situation less uneasy? Looks like a nice scope but this price deflation isn't happening, which is a shame.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: CustomEngineerer on March 14, 2017, 09:36:28 am
Hello folks - R&S is launching a new MSOX game changer

 :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 14, 2017, 09:59:02 am
For you they'll include this tea-cozy to cover the scope when not in use:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/product/rtb2000-options_63490-266306.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/product/rtb2000-options_63490-266306.html)
R&S®RTB-Z3
Order No. 1333.1734.02
Soft Bag

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 14, 2017, 10:02:28 am
Nice.

but, do we have an idea on how much is it for the options? i remember seing crazy numbers for some R&S scopes..
i.e: 70 MHz (can upgrade bandwidth later)
Common decodes + automotive.
how much?

edit:uh, i spoke too soon. Only saw first page
seems that i wasn't becoming crazy at remembering 600€ per single decode options on some R&S scopes
jesus christ.

is this the 10 bit resolution, big screen one? too bad, it looked soo nice on paper.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 10:31:32 am
I like the look of the annotation feature, great use of a touch screen.

I was supposed to be getting one too, didn't happen.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: paulcav on March 14, 2017, 10:41:49 am
ROHDE & SCHWARZ  RTB2002/RTB-B1 (RTB2K-72M)  Oscilloscope, RTB2000 Series, 2 Analogue, 16 Digital, 70 MHz, 1.25 GSPS, 10 Mpts, 5 ns

English info
http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2002-rtb-b1-rtb2k-72m/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-2-ch/dp/2723108 (http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2002-rtb-b1-rtb2k-72m/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-2-ch/dp/2723108)

at a mere AUS$2,766.11 get one tomorrow  8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 14, 2017, 10:43:07 am
Prices?
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45684 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45684)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 14, 2017, 10:46:17 am
I like the look of the annotation feature, great use of a touch screen.

I was supposed to be getting one too, didn't happen.
Hi Dave - I'll check on yours too.  Likely got caught up in the same issue Mike's did.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 10:52:21 am
At Testequity
Quote
   
Rohde & Schwarz RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for RTB2000 Series
Contains RTB-K1.02 (serial trigger and decoding I2C), RTB-K2.02 (SPI,UART/RS323), RTB-K3.02 (CAN/LIN), RTB-K15.02 (History and Segment Memory), RTB-B6.02 (ARB Generator) (1333.1092.02)
US$1260 (GBP1001 at Farnell).
Blatant copy of Keysight's app bundle. If you can use a reasonable proportion of them, rather better value.
The stupid thing is that if they'd price the individual ones more reasonably (e.g. as per DSOX1102) I'm sure they'd sell a lot more and possibly make more overall.
The other stupid thing is why are they even bothering to sell non-physical items through distribution. They could do them online cheaper by cutting out the middle man.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 14, 2017, 10:57:29 am
Too expensive anyhow!

I hope that Rigol comes with a new affordable model that includes hardware decoding.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Dubbie on March 14, 2017, 11:11:51 am
Dunno what you guys are on about with it being ugly. I like it! It's a handsome chap.
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vk6zgo on March 14, 2017, 11:12:05 am
with gesture control ...
For some reason I'm reminded of Bob Widlar...  What would you want a scope to do in response to this gesture?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZWtU43b__t4/maxresdefault.jpg)

Or Billy Connoly!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 11:21:44 am
I wonder what exactly this means -
Quote
Special display mode
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
Considering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.

Also noticed 1mv/div without bandwidth limitation.

All in all it looks like pretty serious competition for the DSOX2000 in particular, though Keysight could easily drop prices and throw in options if they wanted.

But killer/game-changer ?  We'll see....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on March 14, 2017, 11:35:58 am
I wonder what exactly this means -
Quote
Special display mode
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
Considering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.
Describing the different color maps means its probably the false color style display for eye diagrams, a very welcome feature to make intensity graded displays clearer.

Hello folks - R&S is launching a new MSOX game changer
:-DD
They also seemed to know a lot of details ahead of everyone else, probably an undeclared interest there.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 11:38:04 am
But killer/game-changer ?  We'll see....
I don't think so. Feature and pricewise the RTB2000 is on par with Lecroy's Wavesurfer 3000 which has been out for a couple of years already. The only important thing the Wavesurfer 3000 doesn't have is peak detect.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 11:47:38 am
I wonder what exactly this means -
Quote
Special display mode
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
Considering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.
Describing the different color maps means its probably the false color style display for eye diagrams, a very welcome feature to make intensity graded displays clearer.
That's what I'd have hoped, but as it would be such good eye-candy, why are they not showing it in the datasheet or brochure ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 14, 2017, 11:49:47 am
No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 11:55:24 am
No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.
I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 14, 2017, 11:59:30 am
No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.
I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
The two features go hand in hand for the most part. If it is targeted to compete with the Keysight DSOX2000 series then having neither feature is understandable. Both of the features are a major reason I went with the Keysight 3000 instead of the 2000.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: technogeeky on March 14, 2017, 12:00:49 pm
Full datasheet:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf)

Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)
300MHz with passive probes works. And 50R through-terminators are hardly a big deal
Quote
Protocol decoding and digital inputs optional

<sigh> Such a shame that  scope manufacturers continue to think that protocol decode is optional. Especially when less useful things like FFT are typically standard.

mike:

I do understand arguments for and against this model. For instance, with the Tek USB3 spectrum analyzer, they sell an extremely powerful device and "give away" their software with the 17 basic measurements such a device can make. Then all of the fancier options and decodes cost money feature-by-feature until you're many thousands above the original price. Fine. I understand. Some of those features are downright awesome, and they are probably very difficult to implement properly.


But we're talking about protocol decoding. This is not rocket surgery. If I gave this oscilloscope, a pair of headphones, and a 12-pack of red bull to a 2nd or 3rd undergraduate computer science student they could knock out these protocol features in a weekend. The only reason that such features are still able to be sold as options is because the hardware is locked out against end-user programming. If someone made one of these oscilloscopes with an API, not only would protocol decode (and probably many other features) be available to everyone for free in the first week, by a month it would probably be capable of tons of other cool things that the manufacturer hasn't yet even imagined.

There is still a huge disconnect with the FOSS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software) and the electronics hardware and test equipment sectors. FOSS isn't perfect, and it's not for everyone. But it's exactly the markets like hobbyists, semi-professionals, enthusiasts which have benefitted and contributed the most to projects in this sector. And it's exactly the same people who would stand to benefit here.


It's a bit of a shame none of the test equipment manufacturers have the inclination to stand up and innovate in this sector. It's not like this would lead to more effective reverse engineering of the hardware either. There is literally nothing to lose. Almost none of the IP that these companies have implemented in product are totally in the software domain.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 12:15:55 pm
My point is simply that pretty much everything that you're going to poke a scope into these days has at least one of I2C, SPI or UART.
A scope is a general-purpose test instrument, and as such, should include features that are commonly needed as standard.
You wouldn't expect features like zoom, pulse-width trigger, holdoff, USB storage, PC connectivity, roll mode etc. to be optional.
I contend that it is high time that serial decode & trigger should be a standard feature to be expected in any scope that claims to be a general-purpose unit. If one major manufacturer did it, the others would follow. I am slightly disappointed that R&S has not been that manufacturer.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 12:39:13 pm
Wfms/s found to be 50,000
But some questions still:
Trigger rearm time?
Trigger rearm time, when offloading to segmented memory?
From https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB-K15_RTM-K15_Fast_ac_en_3607-1220-92_v0200.pdf
Quote
History and segmented memory
Equipped with the R&S®RTB-K15 and the R&S®RTM-K15
options, the R&S®RTB2000 and the R&S®RTM2000 of-
fer a history function with a segmented memory of
160/460 Msample per channel that is unique in this class,
covering both analog and digital channels. The memory
can be divided into several steps (see table). When the
ultra-segmented mode is activated, the blind time on the
R&S®RTM2000 is reduced to less than 5 ?s.
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 14, 2017, 12:41:41 pm
...no separate Y controls...

Some feedback, that missing feature is the #1 reason I've recently ruled out a LeCroy Wavesurfer 30x4 for the next scope.  I'm sure the multiplexed vertical channels work well, but there is no escaping the fact that it is one more button press to make a channel setting change that I don't have to make with separate controls.  I would much prefer the scope be longer/wider or the controls smaller, whatever it takes, to get the separate channel controls. 

But definitely Kudos on the big screen!  The tiny 8.5 inch screen on the Keysight (Agisight?) 3000T series has been one of the show stoppers there so far, along with the teeny tiny memory.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 12:44:13 pm
I wonder what exactly this means -
Quote
Special display mode
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
Considering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.
Describing the different color maps means its probably the false color style display for eye diagrams, a very welcome feature to make intensity graded displays clearer.
That's what I'd have hoped, but as it would be such good eye-candy, why are they not showing it in the datasheet or brochure ?

From the User manual :
Quote
Waveform Color
Selects the color scale for the display of the waveform. Each scale comprises a set of
colors, where each color represents a certain frequency of occurrence.
Vertical Setup

"Temperature" Display in temperature colors. Blue corresponds to rare occurrences
of the samples, while white indicates frequent ones.
"Rainbow" Display in rainbow colors. Blue corresponds to rare occurrences of
the samples, while red indicates frequent ones.
"Fire" Display in fire colors. Yellow corresponds to rare occurrences of the
samples, while red indicates frequent ones.
"Default" Displays the waveform in its default monochrome color.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BloodyCactus on March 14, 2017, 12:51:55 pm
wonder if I should not have just bought my hmo1202.... ohwell, done is done I guess!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 01:15:29 pm
New firmware already!
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:24:42 pm
wonder if I should not have just bought my hmo1202.... ohwell, done is done I guess!

Sell it before people catch wind of the new one?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 14, 2017, 01:27:35 pm
Dang

I read the specifications, got excited!  Looked up pricing in CDN $.  4 channel with MSO, memory and decodes >$5000.  Sighed and let the day dream fade.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:29:25 pm
Will you sue Dave if he/someone here attempts to hack it? Or is R&S presence to somehow make the while situation less uneasy? Looks like a nice scope but this price deflation isn't happening, which is a shame.

Given that R&S are the only company to ever approach me to have hack material removed from the website, I'd be willing to bet they would care.
All the more reason to do it  :P
(BTW, they never did get back to me on exact which posts violated their copyright...)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:30:25 pm
Pricing is on Farnell
http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&st=rtb20&selectedCategoryId=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%403ebc3ebc&pageSize=25&showResults=true (http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&st=rtb20&selectedCategoryId=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%403ebc3ebc&pageSize=25&showResults=true)
All product listings show 16 digital channels, but knowing Farnell this may be an error, or could be only MSO products listed.
70M 2ch GBP1088

I'm pretty sure the digital channel are optional extra.
I have a ton of material on this scope, let me check...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:35:02 pm
BTW, they have direct PDF comparison sheet against:
LeCroy WaveAce 2000
Rigol MSO2000A
Tek TBS2000
Tek MSO2000B
Keysight MSOX2000A

That tell you who they think their competition is, or they are too scared to compare to any others?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:36:42 pm
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:38:47 pm
Quote
Ordering information
Step 1: choose youroscilloscope model
Two-channel model: R&S®RTB2002
Four-channel model: R&S®RTB2004
Included accessories: All models include the R&S®RT-ZP03 single-ended passive probe for each channel, power cord and 3-year warranty.
Step 2: choose yourbandwidth option
70 MHz bandwidth
standard for two-channel and four-channel models
100 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B221 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B241 for R&S®RTB2004
200 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B222 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B242 for R&S®RTB2004
300 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B223 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B243 for R&S®RTB2004
Step 3: choose your options and accessories
Software options
Triggering and decoding
R&S®RTB-K1 I2C/SPI
R&S®RTB-K2 UART/RS-232/422/485
R&S®RTB-K3 CAN/LIN
History and segmented memory
R&S®RTB-15
Hardware options
R&S®RTB-B1 mixed signal upgrade for non-MSO models, 250 MHz
R&S®RTB-B6 arbitrary waveform generator
Accessories
R&S®RTB-Z1 plastic front cover
R&S®RTB-Z3 soft carrying bag
R&S®ZZA-RTB2K rackmount kit
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:43:01 pm
One interesting thing is that they deliberately are targeting hobbyists in their marketing and mention Arduino, Rpi etc.

(http://i.imgur.com/iE4Lqpr.png)
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:44:31 pm
No separate Y controls  :--

You can't have the bi 10.1" screen, 4 separate Y controls, and a small bench scope, something has to give,

In an internal marketing document they describe:
"Bigger display size expectation/ better form factor (aging engineers, bench space at premium)"
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:45:18 pm
Pricing I have says US$1899 for the base model.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:46:42 pm
Also noticed 1mv/div without bandwidth limitation.

Correct. Full bandwith 1mV and 10 bit ADC. very nice.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on March 14, 2017, 01:47:33 pm
BTW, they have direct PDF comparison sheet against:
LeCroy WaveAce 2000
Rigol MSO2000A
Tek TBS2000
Tek MSO2000B
Keysight MSOX2000A

That tell you who they think their competition is, or they are too scared to compare to any others?
The low end Lecroy 3000 is an outlier amongst the price class. But all those scopes above with this new R&S model offer some particular value to the customer, none are stupid purchases or particularly poor value if chose for their strengths (except possibly the Lecroy 2000)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:48:26 pm
I believe the vertical knob rings light up in the different channel colours when you select it, nice touch.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:49:50 pm
Quote
LAN and display over Ethernet shipped standard
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:51:26 pm
They could have at least picked a signal with an anomaly for the Annotation marketing  ::)

(http://i.imgur.com/lpYYiUe.png)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:55:00 pm
Porn shot

(http://i.imgur.com/WMhYaxp.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:57:10 pm
Chipies

(http://i.imgur.com/Azf4wk8.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: madires on March 14, 2017, 01:59:38 pm
MSO GBP609
I2C+SPI £418
UART £418

Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:01:55 pm
Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.

I will have my hands on a new low end 2CH entry level scope tomorrow that supposedly has free serial decoding built in.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 14, 2017, 02:29:02 pm
Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.

I will have my hands on a new low end 2CH entry level scope tomorrow that supposedly has free serial decoding built in.

Live unboxing?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 14, 2017, 02:46:26 pm
Hello Dave ,

Is this new low end 2Ch scope with free decode something different than the R&S.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: technogeeky on March 14, 2017, 02:55:23 pm
Chipies

(http://i.imgur.com/Azf4wk8.jpg)

Why is Rhode and Schwartz sad? Awwww.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 14, 2017, 03:24:11 pm
Hi,

This is one reason that they are SAD. From the datasheet, the scope does not pass class A therefore:

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=299179;image)


I wonder what extra precautions you have to take? (tin foil hat ?)


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Bud on March 14, 2017, 04:28:19 pm
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.

They can shove it all up their ass if they do not give 50 Ohm input. How possibly it is a problem to add one?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on March 14, 2017, 04:36:03 pm
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.

They can shove it all up their ass if they do not give 50 Ohm input. How possibly it is a problem to add one?
Its typical in this end of the scope market, 50 ohm input impedance is usually associated with active probes and >500MHz bandwidth.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on March 14, 2017, 05:04:31 pm
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.

They can shove it all up their ass if they do not give 50 Ohm input. How possibly it is a problem to add one?
Its typical in this end of the scope market, 50 ohm input impedance is usually associated with active probes and >500MHz bandwidth.

Lots of lower bandwidth scopes have a 50 ohm input and for good reason!
But, it's really not that big of a deal to use a 50 ohm terminator when necessary IMO.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TerraHertz on March 14, 2017, 05:06:22 pm
A "true game changer" would be to simply make good scopes, with no ransom payments to enable crippled hardware features. Just make the scope, and price it with a standard profit margin on the manufacturing cost.

'The Game' is this feature upgrade bullshit, that is flatly dishonest. I'd rather not have anything to do with companies that practice such tricks. Don't forget as a buyer you are also paying for the counterproductive development of the security features and obfuscation they had to build into the machine to protect their precious cripple-ware tricks. Elements of the instrument (that you paid for and own) which are inarguably hostile to your use of the instrument to its full potential.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 05:14:46 pm
'The Game' is this feature upgrade bullshit, that is flatly dishonest.

No, it's not. It's simply business.
You don't have to like it to be sure, but it's not dishonest. It's totally honest, you know exactly what you have to pay up front, and that the hardware is built into the scope, they are not hiding that fact.

Quote
I'd rather not have anything to do with companies that practice such tricks.

Then vote with your feet and wallet.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 05:17:17 pm
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.
They can shove it all up their ass if they do not give 50 Ohm input. How possibly it is a problem to add one?

So you think that unique performance enhancing stuff like a 10bit ADC and hi-res screen you can't change after the fact are not important, but the most important thing is a 50ohm input that you can simply add yourself with a couple of bucks of common parts? Makes sense  ::)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 14, 2017, 05:17:30 pm
Hello folks - R&S is launching a new MSOX game changer - killer scope  [...]
It comes with advanced features - rather low cost - it is a no brainer ...  [...]

That sounds ever so slightly over the top...
Are you affiliated with R&S in any way, or have other vested interests?
If so, please disclose them.

And no, as witnessed by four pages of posts in 8 hours, it is not a no-brainer...  ::)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 05:19:09 pm
Hello Dave ,
Is this new low end 2Ch scope with free decode something different than the R&S.

Yes. R&S do not make hobbyist level priced gear.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 05:19:52 pm
I will have my hands on a new low end 2CH entry level scope tomorrow that supposedly has free serial decoding built in.
Live unboxing?

The survey said people hate live shows...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ProBang2 on March 14, 2017, 05:27:51 pm
Live unboxing?

The survey said people hate live shows...

There is anytime an exception possible.

In this case: See it as a special kind of "Mailbag Wednesday"...   :-BROKE  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 14, 2017, 05:43:00 pm
I will have my hands on a new low end 2CH entry level scope tomorrow that supposedly has free serial decoding built in.
Live unboxing?

The survey said people hate live shows...

 :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrBungle on March 14, 2017, 05:43:51 pm
The survey said people hate live shows...

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bitwelder on March 14, 2017, 05:50:47 pm
BTW, they have direct PDF comparison sheet against:
LeCroy WaveAce 2000
Rigol MSO2000A
Tek TBS2000
Tek MSO2000B
Keysight MSOX2000A

That tell you who they think their competition is, or they are too scared to compare to any others?

I understand that it would take a lot of effort to make it, but perhaps it would be good time to plan a Scope Shootout?

BTW, I wonder if after Keysight and R&S there is some other vendor that is due to refresh their scope lineup soon....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: H.O on March 14, 2017, 06:37:17 pm
They could have at least picked a signal with an anomaly for the Annotation marketing  ::)

(http://i.imgur.com/lpYYiUe.png)

If that's the 10.1" screen then it's got to be my 4 year old daughter drawing on it. Could be a handy feature never the less.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 14, 2017, 06:53:33 pm
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm)

EUR 1900.-- + VAT
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 14, 2017, 07:01:26 pm
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/rtb2004/Rohde_&_Schwarz-rtb2004-b5.jpg)

Not sure I like the rear handle, seems pretty basic for an expensive scope. I'd much rather something to wrap fingers around.  :-//
Looks easy to drop.  :scared:  :-BROKE
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 14, 2017, 07:04:24 pm
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/rtb2004/Rohde_&_Schwarz-rtb2004-b5.jpg)

I wonder what's behind the little lid (?) in the lower center?
Clock/backup battery, or some nice surprise feature?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 07:15:33 pm
No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.
I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
That usually only works for the manufacturer's own probes so it is pretty useless for generic use. I rather have a good UI to setup the probes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 07:25:35 pm
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm)

EUR 1900.-- + VAT
It is interesting that this website lists Hameg MSO probes as an acessoiry. I think there is more Hameg under the hood than R&S. I hope this scope has the BNCs bolted to the front and the PCB properly fixed to the chassis unlike the cheaply built Hameg scopes.

edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Towger on March 14, 2017, 07:28:26 pm
Nice wide holes on the air vent grills. Looks like they designed it to me passively cool or at the very least should be quiet, if a decent fan is fitted.
Dave, can you test the strength and of the grills, the down side is they may be easy to brake.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 14, 2017, 08:05:05 pm
Nice wide holes on the air vent grills.
Nice for critters to make a home in.  :--

I'd be adding some fine mesh to keep these little buggers out.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/11149/mason-wasp-nest (http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/11149/mason-wasp-nest)
http://www.terrain.net.nz/friends-of-te-henui-group/bees-and-wasps/wasp-mason.html (http://www.terrain.net.nz/friends-of-te-henui-group/bees-and-wasps/wasp-mason.html)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: HighVoltage on March 14, 2017, 08:12:03 pm
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
I have a 3 year old R&S scope and it came with ribbon cable for the MSO probes and it was discounted to Euro 300! :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NANDBlog on March 14, 2017, 08:48:21 pm
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
No, the ribbon calbe usually goes into a small box, which has some 0.1 cent component in it.

Yes. R&S do not make hobbyist level priced gear.
Last time I was talking to them on Electronica, I had the feeling that they are targeting the entry level market. They handed me a "Value instruments katalog 2016". My feeling was it is still too expensive, but probably there are deals if you call their sales office.

The stupid thing is that if they'd price the individual ones more reasonably (e.g. as per DSOX1102) I'm sure they'd sell a lot more and possibly make more overall.
The other stupid thing is why are they even bothering to sell non-physical items through distribution. They could do them online cheaper by cutting out the middle man.
They do that because how big companies work. It is easier to get to convince upper management to get a 2000 EUR instrument than a 4000 EUR one. And then you can just order the 400EUR upgrades, without them even knowing about it. Most middle managers have some 500EUR signing capability. Meaning they are allowed to order stuff for that amount, without discussing it. It is stupid, but big companies work stupid.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DaveW on March 14, 2017, 08:49:31 pm
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.

https://youtu.be/7YxFoahKxQ0

First impressions are very positive, good screen, good interface and the little features like booting up is pretty quick.
The wavegen is powerful and as you'd expect from a scope with a 10 bit ADC, the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 09:15:33 pm
No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.
I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
That usually only works for the manufacturer's own probes so it is pretty useless for generic use. I rather have a good UI to setup the probes.
Simple probe divider ratios using a resistor are standard across all the probes I've ever seen
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: R005T3r on March 14, 2017, 09:22:32 pm
No separate Y controls  :--
But plenty of buttons :-+

Looks like the touch menus etc. are at the top of the screen, not the bottom.  Not ideal (screen obscured by hand, fatigue) but maybe configurable?
The menus at the top are shortcuts (similar to our toolbar on the RTO/RTE family).  They are configurable.  The main menu is on the righthand side - it pops up but then goes away to allow the waveform to use the full display.  It also has the light pipes around the volt/div knob - no separate Y controls, but relatively straight forward which channel you are changing (and allowed the massive display).  I'll be curious to hear your feedback after using them.

-Rich

Does it support virtual screen as the HMO series does?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 09:27:33 pm
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.

https://youtu.be/7YxFoahKxQ0

First impressions are very positive, good screen, good interface and the little features like booting up is pretty quick.
The wavegen is powerful and as you'd expect from a scope with a 10 bit ADC, the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Bit of a glitch at 5:40?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 09:56:09 pm
The pattern generator seems to be a bit of a missed opportunity to add something really useful and differentiate it from other scopes.
AFAICS, the outputs are fixed voltage, and the loop-tag connections are only really suited to hanging a scope probe off.
So doesn't look useful for much more than training signals. 
If they'd had a connector ( e.g. 10W IDC), and either variable or 5/3.33/2.5/1.8v selection it would have been so much more useful. 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 10:12:49 pm
The pattern generator seems to be a bit of a missed opportunity to add something really useful and differentiate it from other scopes.
AFAICS, the outputs are fixed voltage, and the loop-tag connections are only really suited to hanging a scope probe off.
So doesn't look useful for much more than training signals. 
If they'd had a connector ( e.g. 10W IDC), and either variable or 5/3.33/2.5/1.8v selection it would have been so much more useful.

I found a similar limitation on the MHO1000 series. Quite restricting
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 10:17:06 pm
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.
 the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
How many points is the FFT you where showing? And what is the maximum FFT length?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 10:30:40 pm
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.
 the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
How many points is the FFT you where showing? And what is the maximum FFT length?

128K point max.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: wraper on March 14, 2017, 10:39:26 pm
Bit of a glitch at 5:40?
Funny, happened during a brief moment when he looked away from the scope and disappeared when he looked back.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 14, 2017, 10:42:06 pm
Looking at your test setup, you only have R&S gear. Are you an R&S aficionado aka fanboy?

The touch screen seems more like a gimmick that most professional users will not use on a daily basis.

R&S is overpriced IMO. Run & Shout :)

Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.

https://youtu.be/7YxFoahKxQ0

First impressions are very positive, good screen, good interface and the little features like booting up is pretty quick.
The wavegen is powerful and as you'd expect from a scope with a 10 bit ADC, the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on March 14, 2017, 10:45:47 pm
Touch saves some space on the edges of the screen as you can use touch in lieu of push buttons. I'd question the longevity of the touch screen. Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 10:49:54 pm
The touch screen seems more like a gimmick that most professional users will not use on a daily basis.
Although I'm a die-hard "knobs & buttons" person, I find I do use the touchscreen on my MSOX3104T, and start to miss it when using scopes without. It does seem to have exceptional fingermark resistance on its glass anti-reflective screen.

One very useful function is being able to pop up a keyboard to enter numeric values and label text. And also zone trigger. The freehand draw annotation feature on the R&S looks very useful - the Keysight lets you enter text labels and position them anywhere.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 10:52:34 pm
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Can you do some pics/vid of the various colour-graded and inverse brightness modes, ideally with a nontrivial waveform like analogue video or AM.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: wraper on March 14, 2017, 10:54:05 pm
Touch saves some space on the edges of the screen as you can use touch in lieu of push buttons. I'd question the longevity of the touch screen. Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.
If it is made with some sort of glass surface like modern smartphones/tablets, then it will be virtually indestructible for such use.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bktemp on March 14, 2017, 11:10:07 pm
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
No, the ribbon calbe usually goes into a small box, which has some 0.1 cent component in it.
If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.
Ribbon cable has close to 100ohms impedance between neighbouring wires, so it is useable for differential signals like LVDS up to many 100MBits/s.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Frost on March 14, 2017, 11:27:54 pm
I think there is more Hameg under the hood than R&S.

I would say, this is a Hameg device.
First, it's to cheap for R&S and second on the datatec page
they call the manufaturer "Rohde & Schwarz Value Instruments"
and "Value Instruments" in my oppinion, is the new name for the
old Hamge brand.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DaveW on March 14, 2017, 11:32:34 pm
Bit of a glitch at 5:40?
Funny, happened during a brief moment when he looked away from the scope and disappeared when he looked back.

Gremlins! Or possibly editing... But probably gremlins.  It was all filmed and edited pretty quickly I'm afraid.

If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Can you do some pics/vid of the various colour-graded and inverse brightness modes, ideally with a nontrivial waveform like analogue video or AM.

Will do; I seem to remember there being a invert option for the colour grading. Shall get an AM waveform and post some screenshots
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on March 15, 2017, 12:00:23 am
I would say, this is a Hameg device.
First, it's to cheap for R&S and second on the datatec page
they call the manufaturer "Rohde & Schwarz Value Instruments"
and "Value Instruments" in my oppinion, is the new name for the
old Hamge brand.

This would be good news IMO, wonder if the original Hameg Mainhausen office is still up and ticking in the wake of R&S?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: madires on March 15, 2017, 12:04:04 am
Yep, most likely a Hameg. Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 15, 2017, 12:10:20 am
Yep, most likely a Hameg. Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.

It's nuts when a new sub $400 scope has them built in as standard. It's sitting in my dumpster, wait for it...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 15, 2017, 12:11:03 am
Yep, most likely a Hameg. Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.

Agree -- doesn't sound like they actually expect to charge that amount. Maybe they have just inflated the price tag so they can show their customers what a great value they are getting with the upcoming free promo ;-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 15, 2017, 12:15:09 am
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.
Ribbon cable has close to 100ohms impedance between neighbouring wires, so it is useable for differential signals like LVDS up to many 100MBits/s.
That is true but ribbon cable is the worse choice by far because the insulation is weak (melts quickly) and the wire strands are brittle. Ribbon cable is intended for stationary use inside enclosures.
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 15, 2017, 12:33:16 am
No separate Y controls  :--
But plenty of buttons :-+

Looks like the touch menus etc. are at the top of the screen, not the bottom.  Not ideal (screen obscured by hand, fatigue) but maybe configurable?
The menus at the top are shortcuts (similar to our toolbar on the RTO/RTE family).  They are configurable.  The main menu is on the righthand side - it pops up but then goes away to allow the waveform to use the full display.  It also has the light pipes around the volt/div knob - no separate Y controls, but relatively straight forward which channel you are changing (and allowed the massive display).  I'll be curious to hear your feedback after using them.

-Rich

Does it support virtual screen as the HMO series does?
No, it does not.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 15, 2017, 12:48:43 am
Yep, most likely a Hameg. Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.

It's nuts when a new sub $400 scope has them built in as standard. It's sitting in my dumpster, wait for it...

Don't be such a tease! What is it? A Siglent?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 15, 2017, 01:20:55 am
I would speculate Rigol, as the 1000X and 2000X series from Siglent are fairly recent, and Rigol is the one that should come with a new model, given no new models for a long time, except the DS4000E series, which were not a big success anyhow.

Here is a good marketing slogan for Rigol in the mean time: "We are back!" :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 15, 2017, 01:25:30 am
I was going to write Owon or Hantek but Rigol also makes sense.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 15, 2017, 01:27:10 am
I would speculate Rigol, as the 1000X and 2000X series from Siglent are fairly recent, and Rigol is the one that should come with a new model, given no new models for a long time, except the DS4000E series, which were not a big success anyhow.

Here is a good marketing slogan for Rigol in the mean time: "We are back!" :)

Not likely at all, in my opinion. Rigol's most recent scope is the low-end DS1000Z series. Why should they replace that one by a new sub $400 offering (which is what Dave has indicated)? The next thing I would expect from Rigol is a replacement for their 2000 and 4000 series.

My bet is on Siglent, also based on tautech's thinly veiled excitement  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 15, 2017, 01:29:30 am
Here is a good marketing slogan for Rigol in the mean time: "We are back!" :)

That does not reflect core ideology with supercharged Sin(x)/x etc. I propose: "Got a line? We'll wiggle it!"  :bullshit:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Carrington on March 15, 2017, 01:32:18 am
GWInstek or Micsig. Maybe?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 15, 2017, 01:37:59 am
GWInstek or Micsig. Maybe?

I really wish Micsig made conventional oscilloscopes, the handheld ones are nice but - handheld - and the tablet ones are a bit .. toyish (and no knobs!).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Carrington on March 15, 2017, 01:45:40 am
I really wish Micsig made conventional oscilloscopes...
Yeah, that would be nice.
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Frost on March 15, 2017, 01:47:17 am
Wonder if the original Hameg Mainhausen office is still up and ticking in the wake of R&S?

When I came from Seligenstadt last week I drove through Mainhausen.
It seems to me that at least one smaller office building is still in use by "Hameg" / R&S,
but the other parts with the old production halls are all closed and I think I also saw signs
along the road with rental offerings.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: borjam on March 15, 2017, 01:51:56 am
Here is a good marketing slogan for Rigol in the mean time: "We are back!" :)
A better slogan would be "We have studied hard!" because they show an astonishingly toxic lack of attention to detail. They seem to do some clerical work, not actual product development.

Note that I am the owner of a DS1074Z and of course I don´t expect miracles. But, a non properly locking PLL? Lots of math features such  as derivative, etc, but so badly implemented that they are really useless? And I still believe that the DS1000Z has a great value for money. But I think it wouldn't have costed much more to do a better job. It's a matter of of development culture.

So far they are one of the worst examples of the "checkbox approach" to product design.

-- "Hey, Joe, look, LeCroy has a derivative function".

-- "Right, Mike, let's tel Bill to add a derivative function. Hey, Bill, add a button to calculate a derivative and implement a simple derivative function!".

With these products it looks like no real user has been involved in the design and implementation. I'm not speaking about bugs, but serious design errors. A problem that plagues almost all of the Chinese products I have seen, and there are plenty of them.

Traditional manufacturers are much better in that respect. Alas, the prices are significantly higher. But it's great to see them trying to regain ground.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 15, 2017, 01:57:22 am
GWInstek or Micsig. Maybe?

GWI low cost with decode would be THE low cost scope, period.

but according to more or less subtle hints from very specific forum members the name should end with X-E
which points more toward siglent

I guess we'll see... tomorrow, is it?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: free_electron on March 15, 2017, 02:00:49 am
with pattern generator. i hope it can do spi and i2c ... would be cool.
but : no vertical per channel knobs. massive fail.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 02:21:49 am
but : no vertical per channel knobs. massive fail.
The touchscreen, and I think the colouring of the vertical buttons with the currently selected channel may go some way to making this less of an issue once you get used to them.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: voltsandjolts on March 15, 2017, 03:06:01 am
Granted, its not ideal to have just one vertical control but you get used to it - I had to on my old Tek TDS3000!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 15, 2017, 04:23:00 am
What I don't like in model names, is the E extension which stands for Economy.

This makes me think about the practices some manufacturers did in the early nineties, where they used CR in the model name, indicating Cost Reduction :)

By all means, who is going to be proud to show off to his friend about his new scope that he got, where the E indicates Economy. That means that you were on a low budget in buying your new gadget :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: salviador on March 15, 2017, 04:44:33 am
wowwwww I like!!!!! I want buy one!!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: H.O on March 15, 2017, 05:09:17 am
Quote
By all means, who is going to be proud to show off to his friend about his new scope that he got, where the E indicates Economy.
If you have friends that really cares about that just tell them it stands for Enhanced and not Economy or scrape the letter off you're that embarrassed. You seem more interested in color schemes, what the knobs look like, what font is being used and how exactly the serial number is composed than what the instruments actually do.

Back to the R&S scope in question, how's the screen when it comes to glare and reflections? It looks rather glossy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 15, 2017, 06:41:08 am
wowwwww I like!!!!! I want buy one!!

I considered to buy a HMO1232 but now I think I'll go for the RTB2004 - 70MHz

Reasons:
- 4 channels input
- 10.1 Inches screen
- 10bit ADC
- 1.25GS/channel
- up to 20 MSPS memory depth
- 50k waveforms/s
- nearly the same price
- I do not need really 300MHz and if I want, I can upgrade to 100MHz which is affordable (but imho way too expensive anyway)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 07:26:46 am
Now calculate the impedance of a passive probe at 300MHz. The signal gets loaded so much that you won't get a decent representation of what signal is actually there. Feedthroughs are also nothing more than a band aid because the scope's input capacitance will screw things up.

I guess there really is no pleasing some people.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 15, 2017, 07:32:55 am
Now calculate the impedance of a passive probe at 300MHz. The signal gets loaded so much that you won't get a decent representation of what signal is actually there. Feedthroughs are also nothing more than a band aid because the scope's input capacitance will screw things up.
I guess there really is no pleasing some people.
OK I'm sorry the laws of physics are the way they are. I'll change them ASAP for you.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: real69 on March 15, 2017, 07:50:56 am
Found 2 video on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 15, 2017, 07:57:04 am
I considered to buy a HMO1232 but now I think I'll go for the RTB2004 - 70MHz

Reasons:
- 4 channels input
- 10.1 Inches screen
- 10bit ADC
- 1.25GS/channel
- up to 20 MSPS memory depth
- 50k waveforms/s
- nearly the same price
- I do not need really 300MHz and if I want, I can upgrade to 100MHz which is affordable (but imho way too expensive anyway)

I too think it's a nice scope, but maybe wait and see what happens with promotions, reviews etc.

I'm a little confused that it's advertised as "MSOX game changer" while it doesn't do that unless you fork out 700 EUR for the option (and then it still doesn't do the decoding...or does it?)
It seems you get 160 MSa memory in the segmented memory option mode so maybe future options have more memory as well? (pure speculation)

PS.  28,3 dB(A) noise.
PPS. that probe compensation routine looks interesting!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DaveW on March 15, 2017, 08:00:24 am
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Can you do some pics/vid of the various colour-graded and inverse brightness modes, ideally with a nontrivial waveform like analogue video or AM.

Done and done, using an FM signal to really show the colour grading, and took a few with an AM modulation signal. Will go into this in a bit more detail soon as well. We've put some images and a short video here,
https://goo.gl/photos/Hxo3RtH6BPgohoSP6 (https://goo.gl/photos/Hxo3RtH6BPgohoSP6)

but : no vertical per channel knobs. massive fail.
The touchscreen, and I think the colouring of the vertical buttons with the currently selected channel may go some way to making this less of an issue once you get used to them.

The colour coding of the kpbs really does help usability a lot and I find I don't miss the separate controls using this, or indeed another R&S scope which has the same functionality. Definitely less of an issue than you'd expect.

Quote
By all means, who is going to be proud to show off to his friend about his new scope that he got, where the E indicates Economy.
If you have friends that really cares about that just tell them it stands for Enhanced and not Economy or scrape the letter off you're that embarrassed. You seem more interested in color schemes, what the knobs look like, what font is being used and how exactly the serial number is composed than what the instruments actually do.

Back to the R&S scope in question, how's the screen when it comes to glare and reflections? It looks rather glossy.

The screen looks really bad in the videos as we use a load of lighting pointing right at the scope, but in normal use it's very nice, and the high resolution screen comes out great. I've been using under pretty standard electronic bench lighting conditions, with lighting straight above it (mounted below a shelf) and had no problems at all.

with pattern generator. i hope it can do spi and i2c ... would be cool.
but : no vertical per channel knobs. massive fail.

Although it's a shame the levels aren't variable, they can spit out a lot of different protocols. I've put a screenshot on our blog, but to summarise here,
Counter, Arbitrary, Manual, UART, SPI, I2C, CAN and LIN. Someone needs to make a nice comparator with a variable supply to fix the last oversight and it's a very nice feature!

The screenshot showing this, plus loads of photos of the scope are at the link below. Hope that helps, and if more questions come up, we'll try to answer them!

http://wattcircuit.com/2017/03/14/watt-circuit-rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-oscilloscope-overview/ (http://wattcircuit.com/2017/03/14/watt-circuit-rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-oscilloscope-overview/)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 08:04:38 am
Counter, Arbitrary, Manual, UART, SPI, I2C, CAN and LIN. Someone needs to make a nice comparator with a variable supply to fix the last oversight and it's a very nice feature!
What does it offer in the way of configuring the data output - can you make it output users strings over UART etc. ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 15, 2017, 08:27:16 am
What operating system are they using? Linux?
I think that Keysight will have to come up with a new scope...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 08:36:46 am
What operating system are they using? Linux?
I think that Keysight will have to come up with a new scope...
Open Source page mentions FreeRTOS. Seems to start very fast.
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_osa/RTB_OpenSourceAcknowledgment_en_01.pdf
Quote

Open Source Acknowledgment 1333.1663.00 ? 01
2  Software packages The software contained in this product makes use of the following open source software packages.
Package
License

Altera SOC EDS
BSD-3
FreeRTOS
GPL 2 with Free-RTOS Exception

FreeType 1
FreeType Project License
giflib
MIT

libpng
libpng License
libstdc++
GPL 3

GCC Runtime Library Exception 3.1
LwIP
BSD-3
nanoX

MPL 1.1
newlib
BSD-3
OpenSSL
OpenSSL/SSLeay License

zlib
zlib 1.2.7
This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Proje

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 15, 2017, 08:49:57 am
FreeRTOS (or linux) is a plus in my book, especially when compared to Keysight's WinCE.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DaveW on March 15, 2017, 09:15:18 am
You can load in scp files to control the data coming out of the pattern generator under the arbitrary mode, so might be a generate some strings on the PC and load onto the scope.
And yeah, looks like FreeRTOS. Pretty fast to start up, especially compared to some on the market!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 15, 2017, 09:45:42 am
Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.

I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

Regarding DaveW's video, thanks for making that. How long have you had it? There was a lot of gushing "fantastic", "excellent", "really nice", "I like that", etc, so it's difficult to work out if this was R&S sponsored? It seemed much more like a commercial than a candid review to me, apologies if I've misinterpreted that.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DaveW on March 15, 2017, 09:57:38 am
Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.

I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

Regarding DaveW's video, thanks for making that. How long have you had it? There was a lot of gushing "fantastic", "excellent", "really nice", "I like that", etc, so it's difficult to work out if this was R&S sponsored? It seemed much more like a commercial than a candid review to me, apologies if I've misinterpreted that.

Yeah, matt would have been nice, but so far it still seems pretty good. At least for me, I don't really tend to take the scope outside much! Please don't take this one as a proper review, this was very much a first impression as I've only had it a few days, and most of those have been work days. Full review will be coming along soon which will go into pros and cons properly and will be compared to the competition; remember that when this was filmed I didn't have a manual, price or anything except the scope itself, which means it's difficult to know what it's competing against.
And for clarity, definitely not sponsored; we don't do that crap. As per standard, we get to keep the scope at the end though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 10:10:08 am

Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 15, 2017, 10:12:38 am
I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

I don't think such a thing as non-glossy capacitive LCD touchscreen exists. And you don't want resistive there.

EDIT:
Capacitive touchscreen. Forgot to add "capacitive".
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 15, 2017, 10:14:19 am
I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

I don't think such a thing as non-glossy LCD touchscreen exists. And you don't want resistive there.

Several Lenovo touchscreen laptops are anti-glare.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 10:20:44 am
I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

I don't think such a thing as non-glossy capacitive LCD touchscreen exists. And you don't want resistive there.

EDIT:
Capacitive touchscreen. Forgot to add "capacitive".
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 15, 2017, 10:24:52 am
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.

Non-glossy as in smooth glass surface with good antireflex layer applied or differrent type of surface altogether?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 10:48:19 am
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.

Non-glossy as in smooth glass surface with good antireflex layer applied or differrent type of surface altogether?
Don't know how it's made but it's glass, nonreflective and remarkably fingermark-resistant.
Although it doesn't have a touchscreen, the DSOX1000 also has a glass antireflective sheet in front of the LCD module 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 15, 2017, 10:52:36 am
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.

Non-glossy as in smooth glass surface with good antireflex layer applied or differrent type of surface altogether?
Don't know how it's made but it's glass, nonreflective and remarkably fingermark-resistant. Although it doesn't have a touchscreen. The DSOX1000 also has a glass antireflective sheet in front of the LCD module

btw, Mike is saying the DSOX1000 doesn't have a touchscreen, the 3000T series does.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 11:00:54 am
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.

Non-glossy as in smooth glass surface with good antireflex layer applied or differrent type of surface altogether?
Don't know how it's made but it's glass, nonreflective and remarkably fingermark-resistant. Although it doesn't have a touchscreen. The DSOX1000 also has a glass antireflective sheet in front of the LCD module

btw, Mike is saying the DSOX1000 doesn't have a touchscreen, the 3000T series does.
Re-punctuated for clarity!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Dubbie on March 15, 2017, 11:24:10 am
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

Oh! Hadn't thought of this. Excellent idea.
I hate faffing through the menus to change this.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2017, 02:13:03 pm
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

Oh! Hadn't thought of this. Excellent idea.
I hate faffing through the menus to change this.
Why would any manufacturer want to hide Auto/Normal trigger in a Menu ?  :-//
All Siglent scopes have always had it as two separate physical buttons on the front panel UI.
Manual trigger is one feature I use a lot when setting up a Single shot event capture.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 15, 2017, 06:42:50 pm
Why would any manufacturer want to hide Auto/Normal trigger in a Menu ?  :-//
All Siglent scopes have always had it as two separate physical buttons on the front panel UI.

I appreciate that you are a "rabid Siglent distributor".  ;)
But I think you would do yourself and your credibility a favor if you tone it down a bit, and limit the frequency of "Siglent is better" posts...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sdouble on March 15, 2017, 07:25:46 pm
is there an optional battery operationg mode ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rachaelp on March 15, 2017, 07:34:07 pm
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

I've now configured mine this way! Why hadn't I thought to do that before? :palm: Thanks for the tip Mike! :)
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 08:30:48 pm
No separate Y controls  :--
You can't have the bi 10.1" screen, 4 separate Y controls, and a small bench scope, something has to give,
 

Can you drag the traces up and down with your finger? That would make it moot.

I'm unsure about touch screen oscilloscopes though. Do they get covered in dirty fingerprints?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 08:35:36 pm
MSO GBP609
I2C+SPI £418
UART £418
Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.

It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.

Until then?  People are paying money so... :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2017, 08:40:13 pm
Why would any manufacturer want to hide Auto/Normal trigger in a Menu ?  :-//
All Siglent scopes have always had it as two separate physical buttons on the front panel UI.

I appreciate that you are a "rabid Siglent distributor".  ;)
But I think you would do yourself and your credibility a favor if you tone it down a bit, and limit the frequency of "Siglent is better" posts...
And that's your trouble, I didn't say anything like that.  :P
But if you want to start comparing specs and pricing......or do you ?

I asked a valid question : Why would any manufacturer want to hide Auto/Normal trigger in a Menu ?
Nobody has provided an answer, just had a go.  ::)

Then I made 2 statements of fact for comparison.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 08:42:37 pm
Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.

Voice control?  :scared:

That would be in the special EE version of hell.  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 08:45:07 pm
I'd question the longevity of the touch screen.
If it is made with some sort of glass surface like modern smartphones/tablets, then it will be virtually indestructible for such use.

But then it would much too shiny/reflective. Add it to the list of "oscilloscope hell" features. Voice control with very shiny screen.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 15, 2017, 08:45:23 pm
MSO GBP609
I2C+SPI £418
UART £418
Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.

It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.

Until then?  People are paying money so... :-//

I got a new scope in my lab today that comes with free serial decode, and it's under $400.
It's started...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 08:47:15 pm
Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.

Voice control?  :scared:

That would be in the special EE version of hell.  :-DD
I think some of the high-end KS scopes have voice control. I can see how it would be useful in some niche situations, where all your hands are tied up holding sketchy probing arrangements.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 08:49:24 pm
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.
Ribbon cable has close to 100ohms impedance between neighbouring wires, so it is useable for differential signals like LVDS up to many 100MBits/s.
That is true but ribbon cable is the worse choice by far because the insulation is weak (melts quickly) and the wire strands are brittle.
And the particular connector shown in that photo will break after you pull it out half a dozen times.

(maybe you're only supposed to connect it once and leave it there)

It wouldn't be so bad if the cable was detachable from the magic box so you could replace it but they never are.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 08:52:23 pm
It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.

Until then?  People are paying money so... :-//

I got a new scope in my lab today that comes with free serial decode, and it's under $400.
It's started...

Sure, but it won't be a "professional" 'scope so it won't change anything.

The DS1054Z has had free serial decode for a while, too (nudge, nudge, wink, wink...)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 08:58:38 pm
I was going to write Owon or Hantek but Rigol also makes sense.

Rigol already has a $400 'scope that sells like hot cakes. I wouldn't expect them to launch a new model in the current climate unless it's a lot less than $400.

It would have to be $300 for a (hackable) 2-channel 'scope or something like that. People would simply keep on buying the DS1054Z otherwise.

They can probably do that: They still sell the DS1052E for not much more than that and a newer design would be cheaper to manufacture.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2017, 09:03:33 pm
It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.

Until then?  People are paying money so... :-//

I got a new scope in my lab today that comes with free serial decode, and it's under $400.
It's started...

Sure, but it won't be a "professional" 'scope so it won't change anything.

The DS1054Z has had free serial decode for a while, too (nudge, nudge, wink, wink...)
Unless it's got a really good FFT and a few other tricks. nudge, wink, wink.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 15, 2017, 09:12:36 pm
infos when? this week? next week?
I thought i would already see something (electronica 2017 started yesterday) but nothing on their website either
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 15, 2017, 09:16:28 pm
few other tricks

Let me guess... floating inputs maybe (as extra)?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Faith on March 15, 2017, 09:18:53 pm
My reaction on seeing:

Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)
10 bit ADC
10Mpts per channel (but it seems to be shared with the digital channels so caveat emptor)
Peak detect acquisition mode included
Protocol decoding and digital inputs optional

= :box:

Manual up already! I see 8 upgrade options..
1. Mixed signal option, additional 16 logic channels
2. Waveform generator and 4-bit pattern generator
3. Bandwith upgrades, 100 MHz, 200 MHz, 300 MHz
4. I2C triggering and decoding
5. UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 triggering and decoding
6. CAN triggering and decoding
7. LIN triggering and decoding
8. History and segmented memory

= :scared:

Really though. This does look like a wonderful little pocket rocket of a scope and I really love that screen! But the last time I even attempted to look at a Rohde & Schwarz oscilloscope I simply couldn't get past how expensive the options were (especially once you look at the RTM line).

I always prefer to assume worst case scenario pricing since you don't always know what lies ahead in the future.

Keysight options aren't exactly cheap, but Rohde & Schwarz is in a completely different league. At least Keysight has the all-in-one application bundle which isn't actually too badly priced. Would really have to take a look at the full pricelist for the new RTB before I can decide how worthwhile it is to consider.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rachaelp on March 15, 2017, 09:22:23 pm
Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.

Voice control?  :scared:

That would be in the special EE version of hell.  :-DD
I think some of the high-end KS scopes have voice control. I can see how it would be useful in some niche situations, where all your hands are tied up holding sketchy probing arrangements.

Voice control in an engineering lab environment.... Just imagine all the colourful language the scope would have to be trained to "understand"....  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 09:28:18 pm
At least Keysight has the all-in-one application bundle which isn't actually too badly priced. Would really have to take a look at the full pricelist for the new RTB before I can decide how worthwhile it is to consider.
R&S also do an app bundle - I linked to it earlier in this thread. OK value if you need most of it, but individual decodes, especially as UART & I2C+SPI are seperate options and crazy expensive.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Faith on March 15, 2017, 09:32:18 pm
Voice control in an engineering lab environment.... Just imagine all the colourful language the scope would have to be trained to "understand"....  :-DD

As long as it doesn't respond, we'll be good :p

Silence is often the best cure in high stress environments. If the scope even thinks about responding with "don't shoot the messenger! I'm not to blame for displaying this crappy excuse of a signal!" then it goes straight out of the window >,<"...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Faith on March 15, 2017, 09:39:24 pm
R&S also do an app bundle - I linked to it earlier in this thread. OK value if you need most of it, but individual decodes, especially as UART & I2C+SPI are seperate options and crazy expensive.

That's nice. How are R&S probe prices though?

I guess for the new RTB this shouldn't be too much of an issue since it doesn't have any active smart probe interface so anything goes; but when I did look at some of their active probes their prices were, ahem... and never mind active probes, the logic analyser probes too were insanely expensive.

And since R&S are relatively young in the market you don't have the same flood of parts on eBay which can occasionally be acquired for pretty decent prices.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nugglix on March 15, 2017, 09:46:27 pm
And since R&S are relatively young in the market you don't have the same flood of parts on eBay which can occasionally be acquired for pretty decent prices.

How many decades are not young in the market for you?

And as already stated above, it seems to be of Hameg descent.
And Hameg is not so young I think.

The probes cost a fortune or two... but I think they're quite nice.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 15, 2017, 10:40:38 pm
How many decades are not young in the market for you?

And as already stated above, it seems to be of Hameg descent.
And Hameg is not so young I think.

Hameg has been around since 1957, and Rohde & Schwarz since 1933.
Hameg was pretty late in making the transition to purely digital scopes though -- 2008 according to Wikipedia.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 16, 2017, 01:38:13 am

Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

Now why didn't I think of that?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 16, 2017, 01:45:39 am
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.
Ribbon cable has close to 100ohms impedance between neighbouring wires, so it is useable for differential signals like LVDS up to many 100MBits/s.
That is true but ribbon cable is the worse choice by far because the insulation is weak (melts quickly) and the wire strands are brittle.
And the particular connector shown in that photo will break after you pull it out half a dozen times.

(maybe you're only supposed to connect it once and leave it there)

It wouldn't be so bad if the cable was detachable from the magic box so you could replace it but they never are.

FWIW the Rigol MSO1074Z-S LA ribbon cable detaches at both ends.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 02:06:14 am

Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

Now why didn't I think of that?
You never saw that button and wondered what it did...?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Asymmetric13 on March 16, 2017, 02:06:32 am
I wonder if it would be possible (time available), presuming there is sufficient communal interest, for @EEVBlog / @mikeselectricstuff to conduct a full comparison between this new scope, the (seemingly) equivalently positioned Siglent that @tautech refers to and also the (presumably) similar GW Instek that @nctnico mentioned (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-announces-new-mso-2000/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-announces-new-mso-2000/). Alternatively/additionally perhaps there is enough knowledge of each product amongst contributors here to carry out such a comparison on a consolidated basis.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: salviador on March 16, 2017, 02:40:05 am
I can't wait that Dave review mso !!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 16, 2017, 05:38:38 am

Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

Now why didn't I think of that?
You never saw that button and wondered what it did...?

Its function in earlier scopes was limited to things like saving and printing. The Quick Trigger is a relatively new option for that key.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 16, 2017, 09:16:53 am
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kwass on March 16, 2017, 09:35:10 am
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)

A bit less expensive at Tequipment with member discount: http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=rtb2k-com4&guid=91eba3a788cd4993988097219695d556&s=1&F_Suggestions=rtb2k-com4&F_OriginalKeyword=RTB2K-COM4.99 (http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=rtb2k-com4&guid=91eba3a788cd4993988097219695d556&s=1&F_Suggestions=rtb2k-com4&F_OriginalKeyword=RTB2K-COM4.99)

Looks great and a good price for all that, but I'd like to see a review (Dave's or otherwise) before further consideration.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 16, 2017, 10:05:07 am
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 10:08:59 am
It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.

Until then?  People are paying money so... :-//

I got a new scope in my lab today that comes with free serial decode, and it's under $400.
It's started...
Sure, but it won't be a "professional" 'scope so it won't change anything.
The DS1054Z has had free serial decode for a while, too (nudge, nudge, wink, wink...)

Hacking the scope does not count.
By having Siglent say this low end scope now includes free serial decode out of the box, that still says a lot IMO.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 16, 2017, 10:33:10 am
Hacking the scope does not count.
By having Siglent say this low end scope now includes free serial decode out of the box, that still says a lot IMO.
I don't see why hacking wouldn't count. In the end what counts is value for money. Besides that Siglent and Keysight both have almost ongoing special offers where you get the decoding for free. All in all doing decoding out of the box (which GW Instek did first on their GDS-2000E BTW) isn't really special.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ruairi on March 16, 2017, 10:33:36 am
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)

A bit less expensive at Tequipment with member discount: http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=rtb2k-com4&guid=91eba3a788cd4993988097219695d556&s=1&F_Suggestions=rtb2k-com4&F_OriginalKeyword=RTB2K-COM4.99 (http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=rtb2k-com4&guid=91eba3a788cd4993988097219695d556&s=1&F_Suggestions=rtb2k-com4&F_OriginalKeyword=RTB2K-COM4.99)

Looks great and a good price for all that, but I'd like to see a review (Dave's or otherwise) before further consideration.

Does anyone know if you can use the EEVblog forum discount with the Tequipment member discount or is it one or the other?

This offer is hard to beat
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 10:34:48 am
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.

That is insanely good value. I almost wonder if it's an error. "while stocks last" on something that's just launched, and possibly not even actually available yet, seems odd.

At that price it would absolutely be a serious game-changer
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 16, 2017, 11:20:29 am
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.

That is insanely good value. I almost wonder if it's an error. "while stocks last" on something that's just launched, and possibly not even actually available yet, seems odd.

At that price it would absolutely be a serious game-changer
Hi Folks - as I said in the other thread, not too good to be true. All US and Canada partners can offer this deal. It is specific to US and Canada (sorry folks - other regions will have their own specials). It is a screaming deal - we wanted to give early adopters a fantastic deal.  We believe the scope is tops in its class, but the proof is in the pudding as they say, and we want a number of folks to get them in their hands early - we think they'll be pleased and will help build awareness around the scopes. 

All our partners that stock should have them on their shelf (or will shortly).

And the quantity is limited (first come first served!).

-Rich

Edit:  Deleted the quantity reference about it being "fairly large" - don't want to create misunderstanding that there are tons of launch edition units. 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 16, 2017, 11:26:54 am
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.

That is insanely good value. I almost wonder if it's an error. "while stocks last" on something that's just launched, and possibly not even actually available yet, seems odd.

At that price it would absolutely be a serious game-changer

I went ahead and ordered one, and it didn't balk at me saying it wasn't really available or anything.  If it is really a limited time offer, I figure if I don't like it, I can probably sell it used for what I paid for it.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 16, 2017, 11:35:35 am
Hello Mike ,

Have you been told when you will receive the scope, I am looking forward to your comparison with your Keysight unit.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 11:40:35 am
Hello Mike ,

Have you been told when you will receive the scope, I am looking forward to your comparison with your Keysight unit.
Not yet but expecting to know any day - soon I think.
I just emailed my UK contact about the launch offer in Europe.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 16, 2017, 11:49:03 am
Mike are you tempted to get  one at these prices .
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 11:58:23 am
Mike are you tempted to get  one at these prices .
If they hadn't already promised to send me one, and I didn't have the MSOX3104T, definitely.
At that price it's a total no-brainer.




 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 16, 2017, 12:35:31 pm
I went to buy one at $2080 US. and yet again... FAIL  these guys can't ship to Canada.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 12:42:14 pm
I went to buy one at $2080 US. and yet again... FAIL  these guys can't ship to Canada.
Quote from: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA
All US and Canada partners can offer this deal.
Time to talk to your local friendly Canadian R&S dealer eh?.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 16, 2017, 01:25:31 pm
Crosses fingers...

I have been looking for a high bandwidth scope able to handle very long serial decodes.  From the brochure this will do the job and all my wish list at that, for not much more than the Picoscope I was looking at.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 16, 2017, 01:30:35 pm
The Keysight 3000X hacked to 1GHz for $4k is also attractive.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 16, 2017, 01:33:43 pm
Crosses fingers...

I have been looking for a high bandwidth scope able to handle very long serial decodes.  From the brochure this will do the job and all my wish list at that, for not much more than the Picoscope I was looking at.
Hi irakandjii - just replied to your PM. For those looking in Canada, Test Force is our main partner there.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 16, 2017, 01:35:25 pm
What abotu NZ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 16, 2017, 01:36:30 pm
I went to buy one at $2080 US. and yet again... FAIL  these guys can't ship to Canada.

Looks like you will need to contact Testforce or R&H Canada(they claim to sell direct - perhaps only to large accounts though?)

Or find a US distributor that will ship to Canada, it might still be cheaper depending on the currency conversion they use.

At 2K USD with all options it does seem like a hell of a good deal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 16, 2017, 02:55:18 pm
Keysight_DanielBogdano  ... Check...

This is a really really good deal for $2k or so..  What can Keysight give me for the same money?  I was about to push go on ordering a 3000 series, and then this came along.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 16, 2017, 03:54:10 pm
If Keysight responds I'd expect them to offer a great deal on a 200 MHz MSOX2000 series scope with the software bundle. If they do happen to offer something special with the 3000 series consider it though if the pricing is reasonable because of the smartprobe interface and builtin 50 ohm termination.

I'm looking forward to Dave and Mike's reviews/teardowns, general comments etc.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 04:21:46 pm
I went to buy one at $2080 US. and yet again... FAIL  these guys can't ship to Canada.

For a high end bit of kit, worth get it shipped to a US forwarding address?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 04:23:03 pm
I heard today that my unit is being organised. Mix up in Germany or something...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 16, 2017, 04:25:16 pm
you'd need to do a comparions with a MSOX3034T or similar.. to match teh bandwitdth.

On paper i like the Keysight better but that scope at $2k is very appealing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 04:34:20 pm
From Siglent (arguably the cheapest mid-range end scope maker) $2k buys you the Siglent SDS2304X 300MHz 4-Ch Digital Oscilloscope without MSO.
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm)
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
 :o  :wtf:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 16, 2017, 04:43:12 pm
I heard today that my unit is being organised. Mix up in Germany or something...

How to get them in Australia ?

Farnell/Element14 list them but no special !!

http://au.element14.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?pageSize=25&st=RTB2004&catalogId=15001&categoryId=800000019504&langId=43&storeId=10184 (http://au.element14.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?pageSize=25&st=RTB2004&catalogId=15001&categoryId=800000019504&langId=43&storeId=10184)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 16, 2017, 04:58:27 pm
From Siglent (arguably the cheapest mid-range end scope maker) $2k buys you the Siglent SDS2304X 300MHz 4-Ch Digital Oscilloscope without MSO.
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm)
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
 :o  :wtf:
:)

The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing.  :scared:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 16, 2017, 05:26:27 pm
If I have to choose between the Siglent or the Rohde & Schwarz, I would never choose the Siglent.

It may have more waveforms updates per second, but 50k for the R&S is enough (for me).
The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.
Beside other things: the R&S comes with R&S quality and not with the Siglent rust.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: Typos
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 16, 2017, 05:26:48 pm
I took a strong look at the Siglent  about 3 weeks ago.  I liked them for price & features.  But when I asked North American support about the serial decoding capability.  I was told they did not have the equivalent of the segmented memory combined with the history feature that is on the RBT2004. (History lets me record for a very long time up to a week or so, CRAZY I can't imagine ever going that long..) and able to store the records in a file and subsequently reload the file later and decode / examine it again.

Siglent support stated I could only decode what was on the screen "current waveform".  According to the rep I could not save what I had and subsequently play it back & decode it again later.  For me that excluded the Siglent and a lot of other scopes as well.  Did I misunderstand the fellow?

BTW 
I like the Keysight 2000 until I realized I could only decode analog channels and could not display the MSO channels at the same time.  The 3000T does the thing but is out of my price range.  I could cross my fingers and hope to win a 4000x :-DD
I liked the Rigol 2000A series but the decode function was similar to the Siglent and I felt I needed 4 analog channels so it fell off the rails.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 05:50:47 pm
Siglent support stated I could only decode what was on the screen "current waveform".  According to the rep I could not save what I had and subsequently play it back & decode it again later.  For me that excluded the Siglent and a lot of other scopes as well.  Did I misunderstand the fellow?

The new Siglent low end scope (not released) does decode on the entire memory, it's one of their marketing highlights.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 05:53:41 pm
From Siglent (arguably the cheapest mid-range end scope maker) $2k buys you the Siglent SDS2304X 300MHz 4-Ch Digital Oscilloscope without MSO.
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm)
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
 :o  :wtf:
:)

The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing.  :scared:

I just did.
Both are circa $2k.
The R&S comes with so much more it's not even comparable.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on March 16, 2017, 05:59:52 pm
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
 :o  :wtf:

I think R&S has essentially just said to the other manufacturers: "It's on like Donkey Kong!"

This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 16, 2017, 06:09:46 pm
This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:

But The One has not arrived :P R&S has no onboard analysis (wfm math only +-*/) to speak of and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K), meaning it probably has little processing power. It cannot do many things that 5x cheaper scopes can. So user has really understand requirements.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 16, 2017, 06:51:40 pm
I think the lack of math functions does suck a bit, I've come to appreciate the integrate function on the keysight :|
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 07:10:46 pm
The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.
I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 16, 2017, 07:33:51 pm
The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing.  :scared:

I dont like the way teh Siglent sales folks go on and on an on. So i'm crossing it off the list for non technical reasons.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 07:36:56 pm
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 16, 2017, 07:53:07 pm
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

It's available in Australia as well but no where near the 2K USD deal :(

http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nazcalines on March 16, 2017, 07:54:44 pm
The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing.  :scared:

I dont like the way teh Siglent sales folks go on and on an on. So i'm crossing it off the list for non technical reasons.

Yeah, I automatically ignore all siglent new releases/etc and would never consider their gear because of this guy. If I were siglent, I'd reassess my marketing strategy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 16, 2017, 07:55:40 pm
I dont like the way teh Siglent sales folks go on and on an on. So i'm crossing it off the list for non technical reasons.

Dont be too harsh on him, he's a born fighter :box: and probably goes thru a lot with almost simultaneous releases from many brands while he's ordered to keep it down with 2 hands :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on March 16, 2017, 07:58:54 pm
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

It's available in Australia as well but no where near the 2K USD deal :(

http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
To avoid people needing to follow the link (which is fragile), thats the full package 4ch 300MHz loaded bundle for $5,176.88 AUD, plus tax. Very "special" deal for Australians.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 16, 2017, 08:01:24 pm
This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:
But The One has not arrived :P R&S has no onboard analysis (wfm math only +-*/) to speak of and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K), meaning it probably has little processing power. It cannot do many things that 5x cheaper scopes can. So user has really understand requirements.
I think the low amount of processing power is what will kill Keysight, R&S and Tektronix scopes if they don't catch on. There is so much more you can do with an oscilloscope which has a lot of processing power because it has the ability to analyse large amounts of samples quickly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Andrey_irk on March 16, 2017, 08:06:28 pm
Given the input impedance of the RTB of 1 MOhm + 9pf, if one adds a 50 Ohm terminator it will give about 27Ohms of input impedance on 300MHz signal. So, the input signal will be roughly 3dB lower. Then there is an impact of the scope itself. Unless the input capacitance is really lower than advertised, it will be impossible to get 300MHz this way.

Which probes come with the 300MHz version?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 16, 2017, 08:34:12 pm
[...] and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K) [...]

How is 128k sub standard?
What standard?

It's more than all of the InfiniiVision models if memory serves, and I was also under the impression that R&S FFT is pretty good with RBW settings etc.

Edit: I was wrong, enhanced goes up to 1Mpts FFT (e.g. 6000X)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 16, 2017, 08:35:37 pm
Which probes come with the 300MHz version?

Just researched that.  :)  According to the Test Equity page here

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup)

at the very bottom:

Included with RTB2002, RTB2004: RT-ZP03 passive voltage probes (one per channel) and power cord.

Then looking those up in the Options & Accessories tab on that page:
    
Rohde & Schwarz RT-ZP03.02 Passive Probe
Single-ended, 300 MHz/10MHz,, 10:1/1:1, 10 meg/1 meg, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF (3622.2817.02)
ITEM #: 045701.W


...and they are priced at $100 each.  So $400 worth of probes at list price.

Lol, I'm starting to think that for this kind of a deal I could get used to that single set of vertical controls after all.  8)  The thing I care about most for what I do is viewing very low level signals.  The 10 bit ADC with 1mV/div over the full measurement bandwidth and claimed low-noise front end in this thing might be just the ticket.

Here is a R&S brochure I dug up about the ADC and front end, 4th page down:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf)    (opens PDF)

Interesting to compare that to a knock-down of HRO scopes from 2013 from Tek:

http://www.tek.com/blog/not-so-high-high-resolution (http://www.tek.com/blog/not-so-high-high-resolution)

Sounds like the world may have changed a bit since then by maintaining the 1mV across the entire bandwidth, combined with a lower noise front end.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 08:44:18 pm
Which probes come with the 300MHz version?

Just researched that.  :)  According to the Test Equity page here

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup)

at the very bottom:

Included with RTB2002, RTB2004: RT-ZP03 passive voltage probes (one per channel) and power cord.

Then looking those up in the Options & Accessories tab on that page:
    
Rohde & Schwarz RT-ZP03.02 Passive Probe
Single-ended, 300 MHz/10MHz,, 10:1/1:1, 10 M?/1 M?, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF (3622.2817.02)
ITEM #: 045701.W


...and they are priced at $100 each.  So $400 worth of probes at list price.

Lol, I'm starting to think that for this kind of a deal I could get used to that single set of vertical controls after all.  8)  The thing I care about most for what I do is viewing very low level signals.  The 10 bit ADC and claimed low-noise front end in this thing might be just the ticket.
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 16, 2017, 08:57:04 pm
Do we all agree here that the R&S scope has a bit of an industrial look?

Why did they shave off the corners? Doesn't make it look nicer at all. On the contrary =)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 16, 2017, 09:46:15 pm
How is 128k sub standard? What standard?

State-of-the-art in 2017 A.D.
Many analog-stuff oriented scopes starting from GWI GDS-1054B (5x cheaper than wet dream offer from R&S) have 1M FFT (and complex math!). So unless you (almost) don't need FFT - below 1M is substandard, sorry  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 16, 2017, 09:58:11 pm
Do we all agree here that the R&S scope has a bit of an industrial look?

No.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 10:00:18 pm
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited

You'll get'em, nobody said anything about useful   ;D
The wider the bandwidth the greater the noise floor.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 16, 2017, 10:07:06 pm
Do we all agree here that the R&S scope has a bit of an industrial look?
Do we care?  :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rf-loop on March 16, 2017, 10:09:20 pm
The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.
I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max

Without  doubt R&S is higher class scope. I do not want make it questionable. Also personally I have been tens of years R&S fan when talk T&M (older) "Rolls Royces"

I do not know what Siglent here is now "compared". ( I do not want compare apples and oranges)
But  also I do not like "alternative truths aka trumpling".
R&S this machine here have  max 10M for all channels simultaneously and 20M for channel (not interleaved)

Siglent
SDS2000 have max 35M for all channels simultaneously and 70M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x70M
SDS2000X   max 70M for all channels simultaneously and 140M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x140M

For segmented memory acq there is available up to 180M (least in SDS2000, just checked)
Max speed 500 ksegment/s.

Example (checked w SDS2304: 4ch on. 1us/div 1GSa/s. Segment length 14k for every channel. 3323 segment  4x14000x3323= ~186 Msample.   
(Maximum memory for history/segments is not available with all t/div and segment sizes.)

For waveform history same amount as segmented. (R&S and Siglent have this very nice feature)
waveform history buffer works just same speed what is current wfm/s speed in use (up to 140kwfm/s)

just for right facts, not like this is better etc...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 16, 2017, 10:47:36 pm
[...] and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K) [...]

How is 128k sub standard?
What standard?

It's more than all of the InfiniiVision models if memory serves, and I was also under the impression that R&S FFT is pretty good with RBW settings etc.

Edit: I was wrong, enhanced goes up to 1Mpts FFT (e.g. 6000X)
At what speed? An Agilent DSO7104A can also do 128kpts if you have the time to wait several seconds for each FFT calculation. With many points and quick updates FFT becomes a useful tool instead of a gimmick. The problem with FFT in a scope is that the frequency resolution depends on the samplerate (and thus the timebase). The more FFT points you have the less you have to worry about the timebase (seconds/div) setting.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 11:31:00 pm
The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.
I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max

Without  doubt R&S is higher class scope. I do not want make it questionable. Also personally I have been tens of years R&S fan when talk T&M (older) "Rolls Royces"

I do not know what Siglent here is now "compared". ( I do not want compare apples and oranges)
But  also I do not like "alternative truths aka trumpling".
R&S this machine here have  max 10M for all channels simultaneously and 20M for channel (not interleaved)

Siglent
SDS2000 have max 35M for all channels simultaneously and 70M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x70M
SDS2000X   max 70M for all channels simultaneously and 140M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x140M

For segmented memory acq there is available up to 180M (least in SDS2000, just checked)
Max speed 500 ksegment/s.

Example (checked w SDS2304: 4ch on. 1us/div 1GSa/s. Segment length 14k for every channel. 3323 segment  4x14000x3323= ~186 Msample.   
(Maximum memory for history/segments is not available with all t/div and segment sizes.)

For waveform history same amount as segmented. (R&S and Siglent have this very nice feature)
waveform history buffer works just same speed what is current wfm/s speed in use (up to 140kwfm/s)

just for right facts, not like this is better etc...

Why quibble over memory when the R&S has a 10 bit ADC + a big hi-res touch screen + MSO for the same price as the Siglent?
As I see it, at the special R&S launch pricing it's no contest, you'd be mad to buy the Siglent unless it has something very specific you absolutely needed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 16, 2017, 11:31:13 pm
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited

You'll get'em, nobody said anything about useful   ;D
The wider the bandwidth the greater the noise floor.

Tek 8 bit scope verses Agilent 12 bit scope. It's not all about the bits !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYV7HOv4z_U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYV7HOv4z_U)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 17, 2017, 12:15:55 am
Hi Folks,

Wow.  That's what I get for going to bed.  Lots of questions.  I'll see if I can answer a number of them that I saw above.

Q.  Does the ADC run at 10-bits even at 1mV/div?
A.  Yes.  You also get full bandwidth.  The scope also has very good noise for this class of instrument.

Q.  What is the FFT record length?
A.  I believe it is 128Kpts, but I'll double check to be certain.

There are also a lot of questions around the Launch Edition.  Just to clarify, it is an amazing deal, but the quantity is limited and when the Launch Edition is gone, it's gone.  That's why it says "while supplies last".  As I mentioned before, we wanted to create excitement and encourage early adopters. 

And finally - thank you everyone for the questions and the excitement. I'll do my best to keep up.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 17, 2017, 12:25:03 am
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited
You'll get'em, nobody said anything about useful   ;D
The wider the bandwidth the greater the noise floor.
Tek 8 bit scope verses Agilent 12 bit scope. It's not all about the bits !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYV7HOv4z_U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYV7HOv4z_U)
Interesting video but the GDS-2204E can achieve the same using input filtering. In a project I'm currently working on this has been very useful to catch low amplitude signals while the actual signal is swamped with noise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 01:18:23 am
This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:

But The One has not arrived :P R&S has no onboard analysis (wfm math only +-*/) to speak of and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K), meaning it probably has little processing power. It cannot do many things that 5x cheaper scopes can. So user has really understand requirements.

I noticed the rudimentary math available in this scope too.  It is still a bit unclear to me what I would be giving up if I acquired this scope.  The other scope I am considering is the Picoscope 3405D MSO which we discussed in another thread.  The Picos have a really rich math functions and more memory but significantly less bandwidth & sample rate. 

Is there a thread, or other resource I can reference that would educate me on the uses / value of the math functions?  So I can better understand the puts and takes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 17, 2017, 01:35:59 am

I'll do my best to keep up.


OK, here are a few feedback points for your product planners:

1. Probe sensing and 50 Ohm input go a long way to make the RTB the king of the hill in this segment. This "miss" is a hard-stop since it requires hardware. It's strange R&S decided to cap it there. You've come so far, why not the extra couple of resistors and a few more lines of code in the firmware to make it impossible to resist?

2. FFT's are commonplace in entry scopes now. To be truly useful, FFTs need adjustable scale ranges and peak and harmonic markers. R&S make some of the best spectrum analyzers so they know how to do this perhaps better than anyone else. So the way this has been implemented on the RTO and RTE scopes is truly excellent. A simpler version on the RTB (just like Quick Measure which is on all R&S scopes) would be truly icing on the cake. I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.

3. One last point - make rubber corner bumpers and DC input an option so the RTB can be used on- and off-the bench.

Just a few ideas to turn this into the irresistible $2K king of the hill, and possibly, even the king of the road. Good luck.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 17, 2017, 01:42:46 am
I don't know, the sales brochure claims you have 'seamless integration' to e.g. MATLAB which in my book means I'm not too worried about the basic math after all. It also seems 'advanced' math is really a feature you'll get from R&S' RTE and RTO models (=much more expensive scopes). BUT: there is very little explanation as to what that actually means and how useful it is.

Quote
Connectivity
The R&S®RTB2000 can be directly connected to a PC via the built-in USB host and USB device ports. The USB host transfers screenshots or instrument settings to a USB stick. Media transfer protocol (MTP) implementation ensures seamless integration. The USB device port and the LAN interface also enable remote control. The built-in web server functionality allows users to control the oscilloscope and display their screen content to an audience. Data and programming interfaces are included, e.g. for seamless MATLAB® integration.

from page 11 - https://cdn.testequity.com/documents/pdf/rs/RTB2000-brochure.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: biot on March 17, 2017, 01:43:21 am
There are also a lot of questions around the Launch Edition.  Just to clarify, it is an amazing deal, but the quantity is limited and when the Launch Edition is gone, it's gone.  That's why it says "while supplies last".  As I mentioned before, we wanted to create excitement and encourage early adopters. 

So are we going to get that deal in Europe as well?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 17, 2017, 02:06:16 am

I'll do my best to keep up.


OK, here are a few feedback points for your product planners:

1. Probe sensing and 50 Ohm input go a long way to make the RTB the king of the hill in this segment. This "miss" is a hard-stop since it requires hardware. It's strange R&S decided to cap it there. You've come so far, why not the extra couple of resistors and a few more lines of code in the firmware to make it impossible to resist?

2. FFT's are commonplace in entry scopes now. To be truly useful, FFTs need adjustable scale ranges and peak and harmonic markers. R&S make some of the best spectrum analyzers so they know how to do this perhaps better than anyone else. So the way this has been implemented on the RTO and RTE scopes is truly excellent. A simpler version on the RTB (just like Quick Measure which is on all R&S scopes) would be truly icing on the cake. I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.

3. One last point - make rubber corner bumpers and DC input an option so the RTB can be used on- and off-the bench.

Just a few ideas to turn this into the irresistible $2K king of the hill, and possibly, even the king of the road. Good luck.
Greatly appreciate the feedback and I'll pass it on to our planners.  And while the RTB doesn't offer a peak search capability for the FFT, you can always use cursors to track the spectrum and read out the XY parameters on the spectrum.  Not exactly the same, but does offer some additional insight beyond the markings we put in the graticule.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 17, 2017, 02:38:06 am
And while the RTB doesn't offer a peak search capability for the FFT, you can always use cursors to track the spectrum and read out the XY parameters on the spectrum.  Not exactly the same, but does offer some additional insight beyond the markings we put in the graticule.

This is what I am talking about. It is an FFT from a UPV analyzing an AC inverter waveform. The RTB2K can easily do this and more, and present it the same clear, R&S way. How hard can it be when you already have the code?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 17, 2017, 03:22:41 am
OK, here are a few feedback points for your product planners:

1. Probe sensing and 50 Ohm input go a long way to make the RTB the king of the hill in this segment. This "miss" is a hard-stop since it requires hardware. It's strange R&S decided to cap it there. You've come so far, why not the extra couple of resistors and a few more lines of code in the firmware to make it impossible to resist?

2. FFT's are commonplace in entry scopes now. To be truly useful, FFTs need adjustable scale ranges and peak and harmonic markers. R&S make some of the best spectrum analyzers so they know how to do this perhaps better than anyone else. So the way this has been implemented on the RTO and RTE scopes is truly excellent. A simpler version on the RTB (just like Quick Measure which is on all R&S scopes) would be truly icing on the cake. I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.

3. One last point - make rubber corner bumpers and DC input an option so the RTB can be used on- and off-the bench.

Just a few ideas to turn this into the irresistible $2K king of the hill, and possibly, even the king of the road. Good luck.

Real world alert:  :P
R&S are selling more than this one scope product. And they probably want to continue selling their much more expensive high-end scopes, and their expensive spectrum analysers as well. I am pretty sure the product planners have thought about this, and have intentionally limited the RTB scope in some respects -- not just to cut costs, but also to maintain differentiation for the high-end products.

I like the corner bumper idea: Since this still a reasonably compact DSO, it would lend itself to being lugged around. If the bumpers can be designed to hide the beveled corners, they might even make pascal_sweden happy  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 03:46:00 am
Fairly long demo video here - in Polish with annoying music but with the sound down& you should get an idea of responsiveness etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 17, 2017, 03:51:37 am
Also, the guy needs an anti-peh filter really bad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_4qPmRMrRQ&t=39s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_4qPmRMrRQ&t=39s)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KE5FX on March 17, 2017, 03:58:38 am
This is what I am talking about. It is an FFT from a UPV analyzing an AC inverter waveform. The RTB2K can easily do this and more, and present it the same clear, R&S way. How hard can it be when you already have the code?

How many pixels are in that screenshot you took?  About three million?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 17, 2017, 04:02:17 am

How many pixels are in that screenshot you took?  About three million?


1920 x 1200 = 2,304,000 pixels.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KE5FX on March 17, 2017, 04:07:51 am
1920 x 1200 = 2,304,000 pixels.

Right, and it already looks crowded to the point of being nearly illegible.  The scope has less than half as many pixels to work with.  It also has to support various other UI elements that the desktop application can hide in other menus or windows.

Figuring out where to put all of those markers and labels is not trivial when you're designing a UI for a dedicated instrument like this.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 17, 2017, 04:15:12 am
R&S are selling more than this one scope product. And they probably want to continue selling their much more expensive high-end scopes, and their expensive spectrum analysers as well. I am pretty sure the product planners have thought about this, and have intentionally limited the RTB scope in some respects -- not just to cut costs, but also to maintain differentiation for the high-end products.

I hear you.

My thinking is that R&S bought HAMEG for good reasons. Along with the RTB, they re-badged 2 former HAMEG products, the NGE PSU and FPC SA. Also for good reasons. And perhaps one of those good reasons would be to find some new customers who are only looking to pay a mere fraction of what R&S usually sells their products for.

The trick to survive in this new business for R&S is very different than the traditional business they know. Different rules, different speed, different tactics. The "Launch Edition" trial balloon will let them know how low they need to go in price, and if they stuff the RTB with more FFT and math functions, perhaps they will also find out what the feature set tolerance level is. They will need to be very aggressive in both to succeed - and keep all their factories busy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 17, 2017, 04:24:57 am

Right, and it already looks crowded to the point of being nearly illegible.  The scope has less than half as many pixels to work with.  It also has to support various other UI elements that the desktop application can hide in other menus or windows.

Figuring out where to put all of those markers and labels is not trivial when you're designing a UI for a dedicated instrument like this.


The UPV has a screen size smaller than the RTB at 800 x 600 vs 1280 x 800. Yet its analyzer can go all the way to display the 100th harmonic. Its saving grace is that it is Windows based and hence built in flexibility. For the RTB with no video out, it does not have to implement all 100 harmonics but some subset would still be very helpful. On the RTM, the NEXT and PREV markers implementation is very nicely done, and it definitely is not crowded.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 17, 2017, 05:11:04 am
Fairly long demo video here - in Polish with annoying music but with the sound down& you should get an idea of responsiveness etc.

Very helpful!  I had a laugh when they artificially limited the ADC to 8 bits. Reminded me of 8-bit video games.  :)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 17, 2017, 05:32:04 am
I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.
You don't have to make that compromise. Still screen real estate is limited on a small DSO so there have to be some limits to what can be displayed.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 17, 2017, 06:02:51 am
You don't have to make that compromise. Still screen real estate is limited on a small DSO so there have to be some limits to what can be displayed.

Thank you. My point exactly.

This ain't rocket science and R&S has plenty of expertise and experience in-house finding the best way to do this. Attached is an R&S DOS-based 640x480 8K FFT - very primitive by today's standards for sure but it is still easy to interpret and more useful than counting DIVs without markers or having to fiddle with cursors.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Carrington on March 17, 2017, 06:06:10 am
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
...
:(
That is what I feel too when some countries are left out of the game.
But wait, I know, it's due to legal limitations ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 17, 2017, 06:13:00 am
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
...

Maybe that's due to the fact that R&S (and Hameg) already are quite well-known in Europe as a scope brand, but feel that they need a bigger splash to gain some visibility in the US market?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: edavid on March 17, 2017, 07:44:49 am
There are also a lot of questions around the Launch Edition.  Just to clarify, it is an amazing deal, but the quantity is limited and when the Launch Edition is gone, it's gone.  That's why it says "while supplies last".

Does that really work?  Your customers will know that you were able to go that low.  Won't they just say "I don't care if it's expired, I want the same deal, or I'll buy Keysight"?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 08:04:24 am
Another vid, from Brazil this time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlN9cl6nmlQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlN9cl6nmlQ)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 09:29:17 am
I just noticed this scope does not seem to have a "persistence" mode in the display.  Am I missing something? 

If it is not there, is this a significant issue?  I am still not really sure how useful it is, but it seems to be a big talking point on competitive scopes.  So some real advice would be useful.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ruairi on March 17, 2017, 10:00:39 am
I just noticed this scope does not seem to have a "persistence" mode in the display.  Am I missing something? 

If it is not there, is this a significant issue?  I am still not really sure how useful it is, but it seems to be a big talking point on competitive scopes.  So some real advice would be useful.

A quick search of the manual says it has persistence controls as you'd expect.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 11:13:34 am
I just noticed this scope does not seem to have a "persistence" mode in the display.  Am I missing something? 

If it is not there, is this a significant issue?  I am still not really sure how useful it is, but it seems to be a big talking point on competitive scopes.  So some real advice would be useful.

A quick search of the manual says it has persistence controls as you'd expect.

Doh.. oh yes right there under intensity ... thank you!

ok that's it I'm going to bed.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 11:26:27 am
Just been having a more detailed look through the manual.
Some unusual features :

USB - can be configured as
TMC ( test/measure class - like most scopes)
VCP - COM port for SCPI commands via terminal  - no LXI drivers etc.needed  just so send some simple commands
Mass Storage - scope appears as a drive on the PC

Grid can be made to track the waveform as you scroll. Could be really handy for manually decoding serial protocols - keeping timeslots in a consistent place.
Time/Voltage values shown on every grid line ( optional)

1gbit ethernet - appears to support live screen updates via web interface. (Even mentions using a RasPi to do it for low-cost HDMI output! (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Project_ac_en_3607-3239_92_v0100.pdf))

Colour intensity modes, and  inverse mode - infrequent signals show up more brightly - sounds really useful for catching occasional glitches etc.

Simultaneous XY and waveform display, and XYY to display 2 Y axes ( 3-phase?)

Defaults to 50mS persistance  ( can be turned off) I noticed this in the Polish demo, Not sure how I feel about that - wondering if it's to hide something in zero-persistence mode.

Envelope acquisition mode - think I'll have to see it to understand if useful

Adjustable hysteresis on trigger input

"set to trace"  for manual cursors - sets cursors to one cycle/ peak-peak of current trace

Adjustable front-panel LED brightness

Obvious omissions :
No Nth-edge burst or runt pulse trigger
No integration/difference maths function 
No event search ( never used it myself but I can see how could be useful)
No foreign language help, only menus etc. ( expect that may get done at some point)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 17, 2017, 11:52:51 am
Exactlty like Altium, PNP machines and anything that costs more than $1000..   I always go and look for the best deal they have done and that sets the price that i'm prepared to pay.   

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kwass on March 17, 2017, 01:28:59 pm
Just been having a more detailed look through the manual.
.......
Obvious omissions :
No Nth-edge burst or runt pulse trigger
No integration/difference maths function 
No event search ( never used it myself but I can see how could be useful)
No foreign language help, only menus etc. ( expect that may get done at some point)

I saw runt pulse triggering in one of the documents (there are many) on their site, same for event search.  Math/s functions do seem limited however.  I've found from my reading and demo watching (there are series of app demos on their site too) that there's much that is in this scope that's not in the current version of the manual.

Here's the trigger system document that says it has runt pulse triggering:  https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/service_support_30/RTH_Faster_ac_en_3607-3339-92_v0100.pdf

Search is front panel button and is mentioned under the "Analysis Controls" section in the user manual:

Quote

SEARCH

Enables the search with the last configured setup. The second keypress opens the
"Search" menu, where you can perform a search for various events in an acquisition -
for example, peaks or specific width conditions - and analyze the search results.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 17, 2017, 03:51:37 pm
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 17, 2017, 05:14:22 pm
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)
The R&S scope isn't competing with Keysight's new scope, so they probably aren't getting the same people's interest.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 17, 2017, 05:46:50 pm
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)
The R&S scope isn't competing with Keysight's new scope, so they probably aren't getting the same people's interest.

No but its competing with their other scopes,  ( like the 3000X
Title: Quantifying the noise floor
Post by: agdr on March 17, 2017, 06:11:56 pm

Q.  Does the ADC run at 10-bits even at 1mV/div?
A.  Yes.  You also get full bandwidth.  The scope also has very good noise for this class of instrument.


Rich, could you get the lab to quantify that at 100Mhz and the 300MHz of the RTB2004 sales special?  I was just leafing through the 6000 series Keysight website and noticed they do, below.  115 uVrms noise floor at 1mV/div at 1GHz BW.  I've searched through the RTB200o0 datasheet here

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0400.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0400.pdf)   (opens PDF)

and I'm not finding the number in the vertical section.

Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 17, 2017, 06:23:23 pm

I saw runt pulse triggering in one of the documents (there are many) on their site, same for event search.  Math/s functions do seem limited however.  I've found from my reading and demo watching (there are series of app demos on their site too) that there's much that is in this scope that's not in the current version of the manual.

Here's the trigger system document that says it has runt pulse triggering:  https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/service_support_30/RTH_Faster_ac_en_3607-3339-92_v0100.pdf

I think, judging by the link name, that's for a different scope (the RTH series)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 17, 2017, 06:28:36 pm
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)
The R&S scope isn't competing with Keysight's new scope, so they probably aren't getting the same people's interest.

No but its competing with their other scopes,  ( like the 3000X
Uh, yeah, that's what new products are supposed to do. They tend to fail miserably if they don't.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 17, 2017, 07:37:10 pm
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)

Half an order of magnitude price difference.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nfmax on March 17, 2017, 07:57:52 pm
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)

Half an order of magnitude price difference.

I make it 13dB more expensive
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 08:21:59 pm
Just got an answer from the UK guy re, Europe. Looks like it's time to look at reshippers.
Looks like distributors didn't want to upset their other suppliers.
Quote
I investigated into this, and this was promotion was offered to our European distributors as well. But none of them were ready to take this on (it's beyond me why). The closet we got is with Farnell who have this going on currently,

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2004+COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2004+COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

So, for the price of a 300MHz model, all the options all included free of charge. It's never to say that we will not have the same deal in Europe as we run promotions every 6 months. So watch this space.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on March 17, 2017, 08:27:59 pm
There has to be some anti-competitive laws against that  :--
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 08:34:01 pm
There has to be some anti-competitive laws against that  :--
Hard to see how. Farnell are offering a bundle with all options for price of 300MHz model. Others just chose not to offer the promotion.
Just simple business - they make more margin  on more expensive models and competing units than a  bargain-basement special.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 08:39:25 pm
If anyone does investigate reshipping, please post your experience here.
I have asked about the warranty position.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 17, 2017, 08:43:14 pm
I don't know if this has clearly been stated this anywhere  but the MAX FFT sample size is 10M and not 128k on the RTB2000 series . I confirmed this with the local R&S branch today.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 17, 2017, 08:59:40 pm
I don't know if this has clearly been stated this anywhere  but the MAX FFT sample size is 10M and not 128k on the RTB2000 series . I confirmed this with the local R&S branch today.

Screenshot with zoom on "impossible" details or I dont buy it. It might be 10M is maximum recordset of samples, based on what it does FFT with 128K bins.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on March 17, 2017, 09:35:59 pm
Just ordered the 2004 Promotional deal from TEq. 

The Rigol mso4000 couldn't knock my old trusty TDS210 off the bench, maybe this one can.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 17, 2017, 11:10:41 pm
The only thing left that bothers me is the lack of 50 ohm inputs and I think i have not thought this through before.

Is a feed through terminator really sufficient?
What a out noise from the 1M. Will this work well enough with active probes that support generic 50ohm ? How woul I compensate such a scenario?

200-300MHz is not really low frequency in my eyes. You can easily get into trouble by just measuring the output of a fast EXOR gate.

Or is this a case of using the wrong tool (I.e.  improper bandwidth scope)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 11:22:33 pm
The only reference I can find for the RTB2004 included items states 300 Mhz probes for the scope.  The manual indicates you should have 1.5X the bandwidth as a minimum probe specification.

Can Rich or anyone else confirm what actually comes with the 300 Mhz version of this scope?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 17, 2017, 11:40:09 pm
I often re-ship stuff from the US. Now one of my re-shippers actually have a 7-14 day shipping option taking cost down a lot for across the pond (www.myus.com (http://www.myus.com))

Before they had only 4-7 day options at about 2-3 times the price. And you only pay per TRUE KG and not for volumetric measurement. I have 15 Lbs of defective Keysight N67xx power modules going that way at the moment. And I might add an R&S scope to that pile :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 11:43:33 pm
I too was worried about the 50 ohm termination issue (lack of knowledge).  I did a search and found this information.

http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/101634/terminating-a-50-ohm-source-into-1m-ohm-oscilloscope-input (http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/101634/terminating-a-50-ohm-source-into-1m-ohm-oscilloscope-input)

"If you don't have access to a 50 ohm feedthrough terminator, a T-connector with a 50 ohm termination should work just as well. This was standard practice at my old company when we used external hall-effect current probes with our 1M ohm scopes.
(Aside: I personally prefer using external 50? terminators even if the scope supports 50 ohm : they're usually capable of handling more power, and if you accidentally hook up something incorrectly, at least you're blowing an inexpensive and easily-replaceable component vs. necessitating a potentially expensive scope repair!)"

This was what I thought from my university days .. some 40 odd years ago.  That being said, knowledge and technical practice march on.  Is there something wrong with using the "good old" 50 ohm Tee connector?  Is there a practical impact?
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 17, 2017, 11:47:12 pm
Try to look at the info from the folks who actually sell them (e.g. Tequipment.net):

Quote
What's In The Box

(1) RTB2004 Digital oscilloscope (70 MHz 4 channel)
(1) RTB-B243 Upgrade of R&S RTB2004 oscilloscope to 300 MHz bandwidth
(1) RTB-B1 Mixed Signal Upgrade for non-MSO models (250 MHz)
(1) RTB-B6 ARB Generator
(1) RTB-K1 I2C/SPI Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K2 UART/RS232 Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K3 CAN/LIN Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K15 History and Segment Meomry
(1) RT-ZP03 300 MHz/10 MHz, 10:1/1:1, 10 M?/1 M?, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF Single-ended Passive Probe
(1) Power Cord

Probe manual: http://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Rohde___Schwarz_RT-ZP03_User_Manual.pdf (http://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Rohde___Schwarz_RT-ZP03_User_Manual.pdf)
Probes datasheet: http://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Rohde___Schwarz_RT-ZXX_Standard_Probes_Datasheet.pdf (http://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Rohde___Schwarz_RT-ZXX_Standard_Probes_Datasheet.pdf)

The only reference I can find for the RTB2004 included items states 300 Mhz probes for the scope.  The manual indicates you should have 1.5X the bandwidth as a minimum probe specification.

Can Rich or anyone else confirm what actually comes with the 300 Mhz version of this scope?

The Keysight 4000X scope (1.5GHz) also comes with passive probes that only go to 700 MHz. It's not unusual to not get the optimal probe for the scope for free, but rather a general purpose one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ovnr on March 18, 2017, 12:00:40 am
I was reasonably ready to go buy one if the US promotion appeared in Europe, because it's a very good deal and a bit hard to pass up. But since I can't really afford dumping £2000 on a scope now - let alone £5000! - I'm not going to bother.

I might grab one later on if people manage to unlock all the things tho. We shall see.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 18, 2017, 12:03:21 am
Thank you Neganur, that was one of the references I mentioned in my post.   

However, I have purchased elsewhere and was told that it is up to R&S what they actually put in the box.  Hence, my question to Rich on this forum.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 12:14:08 am
Reportedly 200 launch offer units worldwide and moving quickly. Sure we'll see a few reselling on ebay when they're done
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Bud on March 18, 2017, 12:24:55 am
.  Is there something wrong with using the "good old" 50 ohm Tee connector?  Is there a practical impact?

Yes there is. It is never there anywhere on the bench when you need it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 18, 2017, 12:37:46 am
Spec sheet says 1 probe per channel as standard pg. 18 - (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf))

And probes are the RT-ZP03's - no matter which scope configuration you buy. (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rt_zp/RT-ZP03_UserManual_de_en_02.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rt_zp/RT-ZP03_UserManual_de_en_02.pdf))

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Carrington on March 18, 2017, 01:28:21 am
It seems that other manufacturers are applying promotions or discounts too, for example: Tektronix, GW Instek and probably some other manufacturers as well.

http://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/Page/ECEDHA_Education_Promotion (http://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/Page/ECEDHA_Education_Promotion)
http://info.tek.com/EN-TEKENCORE1703-EM.html (http://info.tek.com/EN-TEKENCORE1703-EM.html)
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/index.aspx (http://www.siglent.com/ENs/index.aspx)

Surely, they only do it because they love us.  >:D
Title: Re: Quantifying the noise floor
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 18, 2017, 01:48:49 am

Q.  Does the ADC run at 10-bits even at 1mV/div?
A.  Yes.  You also get full bandwidth.  The scope also has very good noise for this class of instrument.


Rich, could you get the lab to quantify that at 100Mhz and the 300MHz of the RTB2004 sales special?  I was just leafing through the 6000 series Keysight website and noticed they do, below.  115 uVrms noise floor at 1mV/div at 1GHz BW.  I've searched through the RTB200o0 datasheet here

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0400.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0400.pdf)   (opens PDF)

and I'm not finding the number in the vertical section.

Thanks!
Hi agdr - I can try to help some here, but as you know noise is pretty complicated and can be tough to compare apples to apples.  A couple comments:

1.  The 6000X is a higher-end scope, more in line price and BW-wise with our RTO family of scopes.  For that compare, we are 100uVrms at 1GHz and 1mV/div.  But we also have 10 vertical divisions (vs. 8 on the 6000X), so it would normally be viewed as a "percent of full scale", which for the RTO would be 1% and for the Keysight 6000X would be 1.4%.

2.  I don't have a 100MHz RTB, but I do have a 300MHz RTB.  Again, we use 10 divisions, we are 100uVrms at 1mV/div and 300MHz.  I also have a DSOX3034A.  It is 213uVrms at 1mV/div and 300MHz (1MOhm path).  Again, at 8 divisions.  Looking at percent of full scale, the RTB is 1%.  The 3000X is 2.7%.  I don't have any other scopes that are 300MHz unfortunately so we can compare fully apples to apples.

-Rich
Title: Re: Quantifying the noise floor
Post by: agdr on March 18, 2017, 02:11:09 am
Hi agdr - I can try to help some here, but as you know noise is pretty complicated and can be tough to compare apples to apples. 

Thank you!  That makes me glad I bought one of your introduction special scope bundles yesterday.  :)    Yeah I originally had a sentence in there like "Not saying the 6000 series is comparable to the RTB2000, just that the other guys are publishing noise floor numbers" but deleted it.  Keysight's 3000 or 4000 series is actually the "other" choice I've been looking at, the 3034A in fact, so your test here is right on the money.

No shipping confirm from Tequipment on your bundle yet. I'll have to call them today.  Are the distributors supposed to have that bundle in stock, or do they order them from R&S as orders come in?
Title: Re: Quantifying the noise floor
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 18, 2017, 02:19:29 am
Hi agdr - I can try to help some here, but as you know noise is pretty complicated and can be tough to compare apples to apples. 

Thank you!  That makes me glad I bought one of your introduction special scope bundles yesterday.  :)    Yeah I originally had a sentence in there like "Not saying the 6000 series is comparable to the RTB2000, just that the other guys are publishing noise floor numbers" but deleted it.  Keysight's 3000 or 4000 series is actually the "other" choice I've been looking at, the 3034A in fact, so your test here is right on the money.

No shipping confirm from Tequipment on your bundle yet. I'll have to call them today.  Are the distributors supposed to have that bundle in stock, or do they order them from R&S as orders come in?
They all have (had) them in stock, but demand has been strong.  I think your best bet is to contact them directly to see lead times.  And thanks for your order!  I think you'll be pleased  :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 18, 2017, 02:23:05 am
This was what I thought from my university days .. some 40 odd years ago.  That being said, knowledge and technical practice march on.  Is there something wrong with using the "good old" 50 ohm Tee connector?  Is there a practical impact?
There is nothing wrong with a 50 Ohm terminator on a Tee just don't think a 1M Ohm input will work well at high frequencies (150MHz is pushing the limits)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 18, 2017, 02:23:37 am
The only reference I can find for the RTB2004 included items states 300 Mhz probes for the scope.  The manual indicates you should have 1.5X the bandwidth as a minimum probe specification.

Can Rich or anyone else confirm what actually comes with the 300 Mhz version of this scope?
Hi irakandjii - you can ignore my PM now - I found your question.  Sorry for missing it earlier.  All RTB2000s come with the ZP03 probe standard, including the 300MHz model. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rsjsouza on March 18, 2017, 02:28:23 am
Another vid, from Brazil this time...
Thanks for sharing that, Mike. Despite the video uses a somewhat annoying background music and there are some unfortunate cuts on it (during the protocol analyzer setup, for instance), the UI looks pretty responsive and it is well rounded with features.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 18, 2017, 02:30:32 am
I was in the market for a low-mid range scope. I saw scopemonth and figured maybe I'd get a 1000x free. When I saw this launch special I went ahead and just ordered one. Looks like a great value(Here in us, 2287 with tax). Compared to the 1000x from keysight its about 500-600 more with options I want but that big screen is hard to say no to, and virtually everything is better. Now if only testequity would get ship it or let me pick it up.

They all have (had) them in stock, but demand has been strong.  I think your best bet is to contact them directly to see lead times.  And thanks for your order!  I think you'll be pleased  :-+

-Rich

Any way you could say what kind of limit there is on launch bundle, or a range, estimated stock time? I'd consider buying more assuming it works as well as it looks like it should. Paying for the range of options though... I'm not sure it's terribly competitive with that factored in.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on March 18, 2017, 02:44:48 am
Hi Rich,

Is there any update/official position on warranty for units purchased from US suppliers and shipped to Europe? E.g. would there be an option to send to a R&S location in Europe rather than back to US supplier in the event that it needed service?

Asking as even taking shipping and tax into account it would save nearly $3.5k vs buying in the UK (could fly business across the pond to pick up in person for that money!)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 03:07:40 am
Quote from: maginnovision
Any way you could say what kind of limit there is on launch bundle, or a range, estimated stock time?
I heard 200 worldwide. Possibly other promotions in 6 months' time, but I'd be surprised to see anything close to the current one
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaserEng on March 18, 2017, 03:42:12 am
Hope it's worth the hype, just did an impulse purchase from Tequipment to be shipped to Shipito my preferred US forwareder, to be shipped to Thailand. Hopefully the Thai customs won't be too greedy when it comes through.

I have a feeling though that Tequipment may be struggling with demand and am fully expecting the order gets cancelled, the price shifted up nearly a $100 in the day it took me to decide to place the order.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Stwspoon on March 18, 2017, 03:58:42 am
I bought a HMO 1212 last summer. I really like it and recently looked into getting the serial decode option (HO-010 + H0-3508 logic probe ~ $750) when I saw the RTB2004 thread.

Does Rich or anyone know of any discounts or bundles on the 12xx series that may become available?  I am tempted by the RTB2004 deal, but I can't drop > $2000 on anything this close to Tax season :-(

Stan W
Title: Re: Quantifying the noise floor
Post by: agdr on March 18, 2017, 04:06:30 am
They all have (had) them in stock, but demand has been strong.  I think your best bet is to contact them directly to see lead times.  And thanks for your order!  I think you'll be pleased  :-+

I just spoke with Tequipment.  Sure enough, however it works out, R&S is shipping to them (shipped out today, they say), then they will forward to me.  Sounds like a couple of days for them to get the scope from the R&S warehouse.  I'll bet the one or two they may have had in stock were snapped up within minutes of the bundle announcement.

The larger screen and higher resolution of the RTB2000's are making that default of 10 vertical divisions possible, vs the 8 on the Keysight and on my Rigol 2000 series here.  Wow, no more doing math in my head like "what is 5 volts divided by 8 divisions?" Now I just move the decimal.  And those on-screen division labels!  You guys are making this easy.  Isn't using a scope supposed to be a struggle?  ;D

So you now have some customer proof that the RTB2000's are pulling some sales away from the below-350 MHz portion of the Keysight 3000 series as well as the 2000's.  I know the 2000 was one of the direct compare marketing sheets.  For me the higher waveforms per second, higher sampling rate, more math functions, and (available at least) power analysis software lost out to the bigger (still touch!) screen, 10 bit ADC, more memory, price! (especially this bundle), MSO capability without having to buy the next $1.5K more MSO model up, and now lower noise floor.

EDIT: Even having a set of vertical controls per channel on the Keysight lost out to the single set on the R&S.  I folded like a cheap suit on that requirement when the bundle came along.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 04:22:37 am
I've just been told that it may be possible to buy direct from R&S UK, but not clear if US bundle price available.
Quote
On the plus side, we can sell the RTB's directly though R&S UK. So we might be able to offer a better deal in most scenarios.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rrinker on March 18, 2017, 04:23:49 am
.  Is there something wrong with using the "good old" 50 ohm Tee connector?  Is there a practical impact?

Yes there is. It is never there anywhere on the bench when you need it.

 Back in the days of coax Ethernet and Arcnet, I always had an animal 'sculpture' made of T connectors and terminators on my desk. I haven't seen one personally in probably 15 years.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 18, 2017, 04:34:27 am
Quote from: maginnovision
Any way you could say what kind of limit there is on launch bundle, or a range, estimated stock time?
I heard 200 worldwide. Possibly other promotions in 6 months' time, but I'd be surprised to see anything close to the current one

Wow, if that's accurate I hope there are no fulfillment issues. Considering the normal price though, it seems reasonable.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 18, 2017, 04:34:42 am

 Back in the days of coax Ethernet and Arcnet, I always had an animal 'sculpture' made of T connectors and terminators on my desk. I haven't seen one personally in probably 15 years.

Because I never throw anything out, or so my wife claims, I still have some T's and Terminators left from the good old days.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on March 18, 2017, 04:54:59 am
Anybody knows how quiet the  scope is? Having a piece of TE that's quiet out of the box would be great for a change.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 05:24:06 am
Just heard from someone that Testequity wouldn't ship to a UPS hub, or if a non-US phone number given
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 18, 2017, 05:45:55 am
Just heard from someone that Testequity wouldn't ship to a UPS hub, or if a non-US phone number given

It's amazing no uk distributors would offer this deal. It'd be there and gone, hardly affecting anyone but the buyers. Then they'd get the word of mouth from those people since they got such a great deal. Hopefully you get your unit soon, I'd like to know what you actually think about it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 06:03:24 am
Should have it next Wed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 18, 2017, 06:07:30 am
Back in the days of coax Ethernet and Arcnet, I always had an animal 'sculpture' made of T connectors and terminators on my desk. I haven't seen one personally in probably 15 years.

I still do that! Ok, to be honest it's not really looking like an animal but they are connected together, the bigger the object is the easier it is to find it back  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 18, 2017, 06:10:43 am
I have my Tees in a small drawer in a Raaco cabinet. Next to the drawers with N adapters, SMA adapters and more RF connector adapters.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 18, 2017, 06:15:33 am
tequipment.net says:

AS OF 3/17/17 VERY LIMITED STOCK LEFT - LEAD TIME 3-4 WEEKS - PROMO PRICING ENDS SOON!

Features

SHIPPING TO USA ADDRESSES ONLY!

...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 18, 2017, 06:55:28 am
uh yeah, Tequipment.net is sending emails now saying that there is 4 weeks lead time. Guess they were overrun :)

and testequity notes: "Temporarily Sold Out. Delivery for all new orders in 30 days. Place your order before supplies run out completely!"
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 18, 2017, 06:59:30 am
Should have it next Wed.

So from the sounds of it the promo deal will be all sold out before you get it and can put it through its paces.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 18, 2017, 07:14:41 am
I ordered mine 2 days ago, almost immediately, from testequity and they told me 6+ weeks today. If they aren't actually sold out already I'd be surprised.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 18, 2017, 07:31:37 am
I ordered mine from Testforce here in Ottawa, Canada yesterday and was told 6 weeks until delivery.

Good thing that as I got older my ability to wait improved ..  well ... sort of..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 18, 2017, 08:05:51 am
Anybody knows how quiet the  scope is? Having a piece of TE that's quiet out of the box would be great for a change.

on page 12 of
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf
it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"

anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how loud it really is. do you have any comparison?
Any sign if they are using a fan? Or is it passively cooled?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tequipment on March 18, 2017, 08:24:44 am
Guys.  This is Evan Cirelli from Tequipment.  Thanks for all the business!

Here is the real run down on these units.  As you guys know demand is very high.

In all of the USA this is a very limited number of units being sold at the special price.  We have all but 26 units sold.  I expect these to be sold within a few days.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

These units will be shipping in 4-5 weeks.  This is a limited time special. At this time I am told when we are sold out this special will be over.
Again thanks for the business!

Cheers
Evan Cirelli

Vice President and Co Founder
TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 18, 2017, 08:32:32 am
Anybody knows how quiet the  scope is? Having a piece of TE that's quiet out of the box would be great for a change.

on page 12 of
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf
it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"

anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how loud it really is. do you have any comparison?
Any sign if they are using a fan? Or is it passively cooled?

If it is more than a meter or so away from you, you will not be able to hear 28.3 dB "white noise" in any normal working environment .  This is quieter than my electric wall clock.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 18, 2017, 08:45:56 am
Just been having a more detailed look through the manual.
Some unusual features :

USB - can be configured as
TMC ( test/measure class - like most scopes)
VCP - COM port for SCPI commands via terminal  - no LXI drivers etc.needed  just so send some simple commands
Mass Storage - scope appears as a drive on the PC

Grid can be made to track the waveform as you scroll. Could be really handy for manually decoding serial protocols - keeping timeslots in a consistent place.
Time/Voltage values shown on every grid line ( optional)

1gbit ethernet - appears to support live screen updates via web interface. (Even mentions using a RasPi to do it for low-cost HDMI output! (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Project_ac_en_3607-3239_92_v0100.pdf))

Colour intensity modes, and  inverse mode - infrequent signals show up more brightly - sounds really useful for catching occasional glitches etc.

Simultaneous XY and waveform display, and XYY to display 2 Y axes ( 3-phase?)

Defaults to 50mS persistance  ( can be turned off) I noticed this in the Polish demo, Not sure how I feel about that - wondering if it's to hide something in zero-persistence mode.

Envelope acquisition mode - think I'll have to see it to understand if useful

Adjustable hysteresis on trigger input

"set to trace"  for manual cursors - sets cursors to one cycle/ peak-peak of current trace

Adjustable front-panel LED brightness

Obvious omissions :
No Nth-edge burst or runt pulse trigger
No integration/difference maths function 
No event search ( never used it myself but I can see how could be useful)
No foreign language help, only menus etc. ( expect that may get done at some point)

Is it possible that any of the "omissions" would be available at a future date?
- Firmware upgrade?
- New Option?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 18, 2017, 10:35:12 am
Is it possible that any of the "omissions" would be available at a future date?
- Firmware upgrade?
- New Option?

Two posts after that kwass found documentation that the scope does have the runt pulse trigger and event search.   I would *really* like to see more math functions too.  Maybe that could be a firmware update thing, unless it would bog the processor in the unit down too much.  Apparently it can do a dump of stored data via USB to MATLAB, which is a handy trick

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf)   (opens PDF)

but not really a replacement for (more advanced!) real-time math functions.  Since it can perform FFTs one would think it would be possible to make it integrate and differentiate, at the least.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 11:03:36 am
 Of course they could add all sorts of new features if the wanted, though they won't want to compete with their higher end models.
Quite likely there could be things that aren't in the current user guide. There was a firmware update on their site posted a few days ago.
The stuff about runt etc. Appeared to relate to a different model.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nowlan on March 18, 2017, 11:41:25 am
Was there a thread about the new Spectrum analyzer?
Rohde & Schwarz FPC1000 Spectrum Analyzer (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/fpc1000-productstartpage_63493-363458.html)

The girl in the brochure has one to the right of her.
(https://www.testequity.com/Images/new/rs/RTB2000-lab.jpg)

Replacement of the old Hameg HMS-X (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/hms-productstartpage_63493-42689.html)

https://www.testequity.com/products/33441/ (https://www.testequity.com/products/33441/) $1895.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 18, 2017, 11:51:22 am
Guys.  This is Evan Cirelli from Tequipment.  Thanks for all the business!

Here is the real run down on these units.  As you guys know demand is very high.

In all of the USA this is a very limited number of units being sold at the special price.  We have all but 26 units sold.  I expect these to be sold within a few days.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

These units will be shipping in 4-5 weeks.  This is a limited time special. At this time I am told when we are sold out this special will be over.
Again thanks for the business!

Cheers
Evan Cirelli

Vice President and Co Founder
TEquipment.NET

This has set a precident for the price and that will be all the market will be prepared to pay from now on.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 18, 2017, 12:26:52 pm
Of course they could add all sorts of new features if the wanted, though they won't want to compete with their higher end models.

Maybe an opportunity here for R&S to make a few $$ on this likely loss-leader intro promo, an "advanced math" software package for another $540, the pricing of their other software packages.  I would buy it if the package contained the majority of the math functions the Keysight 3000 series offers, attached.  Especially if it added the markers to the FFT peaks!

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 18, 2017, 12:29:20 pm
Guys.  This is Evan Cirelli from Tequipment.  Thanks for all the business!

Here is the real run down on these units.  As you guys know demand is very high.

In all of the USA this is a very limited number of units being sold at the special price.  We have all but 26 units sold.  I expect these to be sold within a few days.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

These units will be shipping in 4-5 weeks.  This is a limited time special. At this time I am told when we are sold out this special will be over.
Again thanks for the business!

Cheers
Evan Cirelli

Vice President and Co Founder
TEquipment.NET

This has set a precident for the price and that will be all the market will be prepared to pay from now on.

I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 01:17:58 pm
The bundle price is clearly a marketing stunt, and to compete there is no need for them to sell it anything like that cheaply. Their intention is to get units out there, so people find out how good they are and hopefully raise their profile ( especially in USA/Canada, apparently).
At the list price, they are probably reasonably competitive, but more on a "better for the same price" basis than "cheaper for a comparable spec". Getting units out there  helps spread the "better" word.

What we may well see is  promotions, offers etc. and options "thrown in" to get a sale. Time will tell how it works out. As Rich said, they are in it for the long term.
And of course if they get hacked, they won't be able to build them fast enough.
 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 01:21:55 pm

In all of the USA this is a very limited number of units being sold at the special price.  We have all but 26 units sold.  I expect these to be sold within a few days.

all but 26 of the whole allocation or just your part of it ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 18, 2017, 01:24:27 pm
I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.

You know, I often wonder about that.  Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 02:07:02 pm

You know, I often wonder about that.  Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?
In terms of actual hardware manufacturing cost, I highly doubt they'd be selling anything at a loss ( that may even be illegal in some jurisdictions) , but they will be relying heavily on sales of higher models & options to recoup development cost, and quite a bit of that cost (particularly software, maybe also the 10 bit ADC) will be shared (maybe already recouped) over different product ranges.
As long as they are competitive in features vs. cost to the competition, people that want a 300MHz scope will buy ( or upgrade) to that spec - some people need that spec, so they just have to make sure they buy theirs and not the competition, and they do have potential to add sweeteners like options at no coat to them if they think that would make a sale they otherwise wouldn't have got.

And longer term they can adjust prices if the balance of models is different to what they based their pricing on.

Something that I have always wondered out of random curiosity- scopes are a relatively niche product. The avarage person on the street wouldn't even know what one was. There are so many options from so many manufacturers, especially at the low end (<=100Mhz).
Keysight are giving away something like 150 scopes, (including I think 10+ pretty high end ones) this month.

Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on March 18, 2017, 02:23:18 pm
Of course they could add all sorts of new features if the wanted, though they won't want to compete with their higher end models.

Maybe an opportunity here for R&S to make a few $$ on this likely loss-leader intro promo, an "advanced math" software package for another $540, the pricing of their other software packages.  I would buy it if the package contained the majority of the math functions the Keysight 3000 series offers, attached.  Especially if it added the markers to the FFT peaks!
While those are standard on the 3000T, they were the advanced maths "option" for the 3000X. So its been done before!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kwass on March 18, 2017, 03:25:43 pm
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?

It looks like it will cost you more than a new RTB2004 to find out: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nowlan on March 18, 2017, 03:32:26 pm
I wonder if the sales data is in some prospective somewhere for shareholders.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 18, 2017, 04:48:31 pm
" I would *really* like to see more math functions too.  Maybe that could be a firmware update thing, unless it would bog the processor in the unit down too much.  Apparently it can do a dump of stored data via USB to MATLAB, which is a handy trick"

I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.
Live data streaming ie. pure AD output for external live procesing will be nice too.
And filter response curve ploting since we have arbitrary generator on board ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 18, 2017, 05:10:39 pm
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.
Live data streaming ie. pure AD output for external live procesing will be nice too.

I was thinking about something like that today!  The scope already supports displaying the screen on a PC via a live stream over Ethernet:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Project_ac_en_3607-3239_92_v0100.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Project_ac_en_3607-3239_92_v0100.pdf)   (opens PDF)

The scope apparently has a built in web server that can display remotely on a PC browser.   I think it has a gigabit ethernet port too.  From the second page in that brochure:


Open an Internet browser on your PC (e.g. Internet Explorer, Chrome or Firefox) and enter the IP address of the oscilloscope into the address bar. The instrument’s web interface will now appear

Click “Livescreen” in the menu on the left to obtain a continuously updated image of the oscilloscope display in your browser (the browser can be resized). You can use the “Remote Front Panel” to fully operate the instrument


So essentially similar to Remote Desktop Connection between two PCs, just with the scope's interface instead:


To interact with the oscilloscope, use the previously described remote front panel. In this view, all elements can be directly controlled. A click on the Autoset button, for example, initiates an autoset just like a press on the real button would do.


I have to wonder how well that will work using Windoze rather than a real-time OS though.  Which reminds me, that is yet another plus of the RTB2000's, I think someone mentioned they run an RTOS, rather than Windows CE.

So... if it can already "livestream" the screen and send control data back over the ethernet link, seems like just a half-step away from creating some programming API's for the scope to allow some (near) real-time waveform processing to happen on the PC. 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 18, 2017, 05:13:13 pm
and testequity notes: "Temporarily Sold Out. Delivery for all new orders in 30 days. Place your order before supplies run out completely!"
I ordered mine 2 days ago, almost immediately, from testequity and they told me 6+ weeks today. If they aren't actually sold out already I'd be surprised.

At work occasionally get to play with the very high ten Tek scopes in our product development and testing department... and had a good old CRO-scope when I was younger. Haven't had one in more than a decade, but was in the market...  was following along ScopeMonth... and was weighing that and the Rigol... but saw the general specs, and based on what I want to do with it was sold.  Only thing I haven't seen really visible so far on the videos is what its persistence looks like beyond the 50ms thing, if any.  But more interested in some ham radio uses, as well as some moderate speed analouge circuits and micro-controllers. 

I guess I do have some worry about the scopes processing power. Maybe it is just everything I've seen has had the 50ms persistence, but it seems like the displayed waveform update rate is really slow to me. I'm sure its just the nature of the videos that have so-far been released.   And I would like to see a bit more on the math functions, but I don't have a pressing need for them at present.


I ordered about 2 days ago as well... but I haven't gotten a date from TestEQ.. just a sales order acknowledgement and a typical "this is what else we do" type account email thing (new sales lead stuff).  Really hate being parted with my money for 6 weeks from purchase to at-my-door when talking that sum of money... but I'm not in a super hurry. Just was expecting near-instant ship due to it basically say "the distributors are stocked" on one of the product release things.  I guess they had higher demand than anticipated.





it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"
anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how


28.3 dB(A) is reasonably quiet. Does depend on where and how that measurement is taken (is it inline with the fan port, etc). The "silent" pc fans are in the low 20s. A typical home during the day would be in the upper 40s low 50s typically. Anything under about 6 dB(A) from the room environment is going to be very hard to hear (unless it has a very distinct tone). I suspect it has a fan in it, its pretty hard to keep high-speed chips cool passively.  And its well within the range of a typical case fan. If it was passively cooled it would likely be sub 20 dB(A) (getting down into psu coil whine, clock noise, etc).   I know its a design thing, but wish more test-gear manufactures could follow what has happened in the home PC market, and go for nothing smaller than 120mm.. 140mm where possible. There are a couple of pieces at work that have effectively 40mm server fans that scream along at 60-70 dB(A). Bigger fans can pump more cfm at lower rpm.




Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 18, 2017, 05:27:22 pm

So... if it can already "livestream" the screen and send control data back over the ethernet link, seems like just a half-step away from creating some programming API's for the scope to allow some (near) real-time waveform processing to happen on the PC.

They streaming live wave and controll scope via HTML. I assume it's HTML5 nowdays.
It means websocket probably too. If it is ws:// and not wss:// it will be the most "buy this one" recomended scope ever   ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 18, 2017, 06:28:17 pm
This is quieter than my electric wall clock.

That's that cleared up, then.  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 18, 2017, 07:40:05 pm
At work occasionally get to play with the very high ten Tek scopes in our product development and testing department... and had a good old CRO-scope when I was younger. Haven't had one in more than a decade, but was in the market...  was following along ScopeMonth... and was weighing that and the Rigol... but saw the general specs, and based on what I want to do with it was sold.  Only thing I haven't seen really visible so far on the videos is what its persistence looks like beyond the 50ms thing, if any.  But more interested in some ham radio uses, as well as some moderate speed analouge circuits and micro-controllers. 

I guess I do have some worry about the scopes processing power. Maybe it is just everything I've seen has had the 50ms persistence, but it seems like the displayed waveform update rate is really slow to me. I'm sure its just the nature of the videos that have so-far been released.   And I would like to see a bit more on the math functions, but I don't have a pressing need for them at present.


I ordered about 2 days ago as well... but I haven't gotten a date from TestEQ.. just a sales order acknowledgement and a typical "this is what else we do" type account email thing (new sales lead stuff).  Really hate being parted with my money for 6 weeks from purchase to at-my-door when talking that sum of money... but I'm not in a super hurry. Just was expecting near-instant ship due to it basically say "the distributors are stocked" on one of the product release things.  I guess they had higher demand than anticipated.

That's the other thing, I ordered and there was no indication it was going to be a month and a half, it was just in stock. Couple days later though... I'm normally fine with it but I have another baby due in... 6 weeks. Sort of unfortunate timing?. Even more when I have an actual project I intended this to be for, which was also supposed to be done before then.

I'm also assuming it's probably similar to or better than their HMO 1002/1202 series scope with regards to the display. The waveforms/second is 50k which is similar to most scopes in this range now. I do assume the display update rate is not great. Using RTOS, lack of math functions, the scrolling menus not being terribly smooth all make me think the processor is weak and possibly feeds into poor display refresh rate. Doesn't help that they're trying to push so many more pixels at the same time. It is possible RTOS was used just to have more deterministic timing and flexibility though. If nothing else the long wait gives you plenty of time to change your mind if it turns out not to be to your liking.

Despite not actually caring that much, with 6 weeks to wait I have nothing else to do but speculate. Can't wait for some decent video of the thing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 18, 2017, 07:44:18 pm
it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"
anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how


28.3 dB(A) is reasonably quiet. Does depend on where and how that measurement is taken (is it inline with the fan port, etc). The "silent" pc fans are in the low 20s. A typical home during the day would be in the upper 40s low 50s typically. Anything under about 6 dB(A) from the room environment is going to be very hard to hear (unless it has a very distinct tone). I suspect it has a fan in it, its pretty hard to keep high-speed chips cool passively.  And its well within the range of a typical case fan. If it was passively cooled it would likely be sub 20 dB(A) (getting down into psu coil whine, clock noise, etc).   I know its a design thing, but wish more test-gear manufactures could follow what has happened in the home PC market, and go for nothing smaller than 120mm.. 140mm where possible. There are a couple of pieces at work that have effectively 40mm server fans that scream along at 60-70 dB(A). Bigger fans can pump more cfm at lower rpm.

Thanks. So you can scrap your wall clock as there seems to be one in the upper right corner of the UI :-D.

But does anyone have a comparable audible noise figure for a pricewise similar scope? Didn't find anything in the dpo2000b and msox2000 specs?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 18, 2017, 07:58:59 pm
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.

Why Lua? JavaScript is much more widely known, and there is V8. Quick Google results:
https://realmensch.org/2016/05/28/goodbye-lua/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_(JavaScript_engine)
For web-developer moving into Arduino is a breeze because it's almost like JavaScript.
Think JavaScript-like processing will reach wider audience.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 08:12:29 pm
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?

It looks like it will cost you more than a new RTB2004 to find out: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html)
I've always been rather skeptical about these expensive market reports, more so the ones that try to make future projections ( sometimes to 3 significant figures) - only the manufacturers really know, and there is no way to know how good the data is. My guess is they're full of marketing waffle for Marketing Suits. Maybe I'm just being too cynical - would love to see one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 18, 2017, 08:16:16 pm
I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.

You know, I often wonder about that.  Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?

I've been told that hardly anyone buys the 70MHz to 100MHz upgrade, and you'd expect that, it's bugger-all.
They would not be selling at a loss, bet your bottom dollar.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 08:43:09 pm
I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.

You know, I often wonder about that.  Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?

I've been told that hardly anyone buys the 70MHz to 100MHz upgrade, and you'd expect that, it's bugger-all.
They would not be selling at a loss, bet your bottom dollar.
I'd bet that more bandwidth upgrade options get given away as promotions or deal sweetners than get sold.  Especially the minimal change from 70 to 100. If it was 70 to 150 or 200, maybe more would sell.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 18, 2017, 08:44:31 pm
Regarding MATLAB and accessing real time data, I found this video on the R&S website:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/videos_5/application_5/RTB2000_USB_live_file_and_setup_access_720p_HQ.mp4

Starting at time mark 0:35 there is a laptop connected via USB showing file access to live data like the screen and channel data (folder names: Bus, Channel, FFT, Logic, Math, Reference).

There is a folder called \Live Data\Channel in which there apparently is access to Acquisition Memory and Display Data.
In the Display Data folder there seems to be a 6.98MB large csv file "CH1.CSV" and in the video this file is opened with Excel.

On trade shows here in Helsinki I've seen the R&S guy demonstrate the RTO scope connected to a software very similar to Keysight's 89600 VSA software and I wonder if the data in the 'Live Data' folder is indeed updated fast enough to be able to use this as somewhat 'live stream' of data (probably not, it's a lot of data).

EDIT: there is also some basic data export code snippet (via SCPI commands) on page 111 of the manual: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rtb_1/RTB_UserManual_en_01.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 18, 2017, 08:46:47 pm
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?

It looks like it will cost you more than a new RTB2004 to find out: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html)
I've always been rather skeptical about these expensive market reports, more so the ones that try to make future projections ( sometimes to 3 significant figures) - only the manufacturers really know, and there is no way to know how good the data is. My guess is they're full of marketing waffle for Marketing Suits. Maybe I'm just being too cynical - would love to see one.
I agree about the dodgy figures in most of these expensive reports. You can find historic figures for some classic scopes on the web, and I've no reason to doubt their validity. Things like the HP1740A and Tek 465 seemed to sell a few 10s of k over a fairly long (maybe 10 year) production life in the 70s and 80s. I think that leads to 2 questions - How would that scale to sales of 6-12 month salary scopes today? How would that scale to sales of 100MHz scopes today?

Last year sellers of the DS1054Z in Shenzhen kept displaying that Rigol had sold 10k, then 20k, then 30k, and I think the last figure I saw was 40k. There was only a few weeks between each of those steps.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 18, 2017, 10:22:45 pm
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?
Look at Rigol DS1054Z stock levels at Tequipment for example. Around Christmas they had over 2000 units in stock after they had sold loads of the and currently they have over 1300 units left. I think they sell at least somewhere between 1000 and 2000 units each year. After all a DMM and an oscilloscope are the bare essential tools if you want to do something with electronics.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on March 19, 2017, 01:30:26 am
I've been trying to snag one in Canada.

I have yet to hear back from Test Force.

Hopefully Monday.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 19, 2017, 01:34:24 am
This is quieter than my electric wall clock.

That's that cleared up, then.  :-DD

Just for fun I thought I would explain a little more. :popcorn:

 :-DD  Just to illustrate I have attached a link to an official "scale" that compares sound pressure levels.

http://www.smgov.net/uploadedImages/Departments/OSE/Categories/Landscape/Sound_Level_Chart.jpg (http://www.smgov.net/uploadedImages/Departments/OSE/Categories/Landscape/Sound_Level_Chart.jpg)

The vast majority of audible noise in electronics is driven by cooling fans.  I hate fan noise so generally replace fans in computers etc.  A really good PWM PC fan with <30 db and reasonable flow rate will cost ~$15.00-$20.00 retail vs <$2.00 for a cheap industrial one . 

Noise in fans comes from 3 main sources, bearings, turbulence from obstructions chopping the air flow (usually bracing) and turbulence coming from poor blade design, blade dirt or manufacture defects.  Traditional computer and PSU fans generate 40 to 50 dba of noise at full RPM.  Most teardowns I have watched on eevblog show these cheap industrial fans in the scopes. 

Mitigation:
If you halve (50%) the sound pressure level (spl) you will drop about 3db, example: if I have 2 fans and remove one I will get a 3db drop.  Now that means a regular industrial fan @  ~41 db fan is about 64X more energized  than  a 23 db fan. (this means it is perceived to be about 6X quieter)

Next, air flow rate which is proportional to fan RPM, is the dependent variable that creates noise levels and removes heat. It is generally a non linear function.  So, lower fan speeds will be a lot quieter.   This why "cheap" computer case makers have increased fan sizes.  The volume of air flow is a function of (flow rate X Area).  So doubling the diameter of a fan provides 4X the air flow (per rpm) which in theory (stretch) doubles the heat removal from the system or cuts RPM by 4X for the same dissipation. 

It is much cheaper in a large PC case to throw a big, cheap, non-pwm fan in the case and then use marketing to sell the kids on just how cool this looks. (pun intended)
 
The other way to reduce noise is to adjust fan speeds downward to just match the air flow required to meet thermal transfer requirement (PWM fans) These are more expensive and require control circuitry.  They are now the solution of choice in better quality computer equipment (PSU, Video Cards, CPU and case fans).

Now, if you want to engineer for low sound the first thing you do is minimize heat generation by using efficient design, quality components and well placed thermal zones on the PCB.  Ideally achieving a purely passive solution.  However, I am sure we all know, that this level of engineering is a complex game that optimizes cost, features, complexity and function.

Once the thermal load function from a device is known,  the airflow required to cool it is  "determined".    I assume that thermal point loads in a "scope" would not need or require heat pipes or other more expensive esoteric cooling solutions.  At least I have not seen it yet in a mid scope teardown.

Since heat is usually a function of "load" the quietest solution will generally have the following characteristic.

1) No fan stage - use of passive cooling only  (Characteristically large cooling grate big holes and lots of them.  Minimally obstructed air flow over cooling elements )
2) Fan Stage  - Fan is under PWM control to vary the flow rate as needed and minimize fan RPM noise. Not necessary if you engineered for a low thermal load and maximized passive cooling options. (engineering in style) .. an inexpensive fan at low RPM.

It will be interesting to see Dave's teardown of the RTB2004,  Based on the pictures ..  Lots of Big holes ..  unobstructed interior.. extremely low measured sound specification.   
My guess.. RTB scopes are a properly engineered solution designed for the long term.  Part of why I bought one. :-+

BTW the 25 db from my wall clock comes from the click of the second hand when your ear is about 75 cm away. a soft whisper like "tick" sadly there is no "tock" 

SPL meters are so fun .. NOT!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 19, 2017, 01:36:58 am
I've been trying to snag one in Canada.

I have yet to hear back from Test Force.

Hopefully Monday.

I called them directly by phone to place my order.  It was placed with the local office here in Ottawa.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on March 19, 2017, 01:49:29 am
Quote
I called them directly by phone to place my order.  It was placed with the local office here in Ottawa.

Hi irakandjii, I live in Ottawa also.

If I may ask, what did they charge you in Canadian funds?

Regards,

Stuart
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 19, 2017, 02:41:42 am
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.

Why Lua? JavaScript is much more widely known, and there is V8. Quick Google results:
https://realmensch.org/2016/05/28/goodbye-lua/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_(JavaScript_engine)
For web-developer moving into Arduino is a breeze because it's almost like JavaScript.
Think JavaScript-like processing will reach wider audience.

Lua because it's simplicity. But you are right it can be dead end now.
JavaScript ?  If the result will be still on the web - OK.
For advanced maths processing let's go further - Python + numpy or API for MathLab even.
Works from Raspi to superpower machines.
But hey - I've read the users manual. They  provide it's own command language engine
accessible via web ... doors for external computing has already been opened :-)

By the way: Have you noticed that tequipment gives special discount for eevblog memebers ? :
https://youtu.be/oQdEq5BHoyQ

Is RTB2004 price droping ?   ... just kidding :D


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 19, 2017, 02:51:13 am
What happened to this video? Why are there black bars on the side? Make his hands look big and face look small? :palm: Yes this is a rethorical question to point out something stupid!  :box:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 19, 2017, 02:57:30 am
Regarding MATLAB and accessing real time data, I found this video on the R&S website:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/videos_5/application_5/RTB2000_USB_live_file_and_setup_access_720p_HQ.mp4

This document also provides some info.

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 19, 2017, 03:10:39 am
Regarding MATLAB and accessing real time data, I found this video on the R&S website:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/videos_5/application_5/RTB2000_USB_live_file_and_setup_access_720p_HQ.mp4

This document also provides some info.

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf

Thank you for those sources. It can be usefull in case of postprocessing.
I'm thinking rather of upgrading lack of math functions of RTB2004. That means live processing data
and compute live stream on the fly ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 19, 2017, 04:08:11 am
Quote
I called them directly by phone to place my order.  It was placed with the local office here in Ottawa.

Hi irakandjii, I live in Ottawa also.

If I may ask, what did they charge you in Canadian funds?

Regards,

Stuart

It was the standard 1.37 exchange rate times the $2080.00 US price.  The exchange rate sux.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 19, 2017, 09:30:28 pm
Is there somewhere deep comparision table between RTO RTE RTM and RTB ?
Why it's better (?) of buying 400MHz 14k$ used RTO rather than 300MHz new RTB2004 2k$ ( special) or 7k$ regular with options ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 19, 2017, 09:57:35 pm
Generally, beside the obvious bandwidth, memory, decoding capability and sample rate difference,  scopes like the RTO series provide software to do compliance testing like USB, PCIe, Ethernet 1000BASE-T, 10G, D-PHY etc. and very advanced signal analysis like jitter and various clock recovery applications.

There are also hardware options like more accurate reference oscillators, IQ processing, solid state disks, operation systems that can run analysis software and process real time data with custom signal processing functions. All of this is something you're not likely to see in lower cost hardware. Last but not least, the high end scopes provide the probing solutions needed to actually get the signal into the scope (e.g. probe interfaces for active probes)

The last two pages of this brochure should give you a first impression of the major differences:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 19, 2017, 10:58:33 pm
This document:
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Scope_FamilyFlyer_e_3607_0946_32_V0600_Einzelseiten~1.pdf
seems to have the same (?, one has "new stickers", the other doesn't) table Neganur found and an additional table with more comparisons among the different families
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 20, 2017, 12:47:28 am
From that document it does look like the RTB2000 math functions have been neutered on purpose.  :(   Hmmm.....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 20, 2017, 05:16:09 am
Well probably R&S's way to differentiating its product lines. They probably feel the "hobby" or low technician user except those in transmission testing (ie their only 50 \$\Omega\$ scope in the "lower" end of their offering) don't need heavy maths.   Add and Invert (aka subtract) is about the only math that is absolutely mandatory on a scope in my opinion... as it is fundamental to taking good measurements on a scope in my experience.  That said, Ive seen some fun things done with higher math functions, but those would have to be.. two families up?... the RTE1000 level instrument line, as its more than math-on-math.

It seems that the RTB2000's focus for this model is the user wanting to catch the stray signal. With a much higher stated waveform per second rate with a higher end ADC, far more likely to find that 1-in-a-million signal, and small noise in free-running. So they spent the silicon money for that. (I really hope Dave or someone can test to see if its waves/s actually is up there).

Not that I of course would love a scope with smooth 2048 gradient persistence with any math function that can throw it on the screen nearly as fast as it can acquire it, that can do 50 \$\Omega\$ or high impedance,  capturing the 1-in-a-billion signal... but yeah...   I think the high end scope mfg still want to have a wide product line, instead of narrowing down more.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 20, 2017, 06:27:36 am
They are clearly targetting the DSOX2000, as the feature set is basically a straight copy, and they're hoping to  differentiate with the touchscreen/UI, 10 bit ADC and I/O features.

The main maths function I'd like to see is integration, as this can be useful for measuring current draw of devices that vary a lot in different modes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: jjoonathan on March 20, 2017, 06:37:03 am
They are clearly targetting the DSOX2000, as the feature set is basically a straight copy, and they're hoping to  differentiate with the touchscreen/UI, 10 bit ADC and I/O features.

The main maths function I'd like to see is integration, as this can be useful for measuring current draw of devices that vary a lot in different modes.

Integration is also useful for measuring small capacitance and inductance, as popularized by the Black Magic book.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on March 20, 2017, 08:00:42 am
There is still a huge disconnect with the FOSS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software) and the electronics hardware and test equipment sectors. FOSS isn't perfect, and it's not for everyone. But it's exactly the markets like hobbyists, semi-professionals, enthusiasts which have benefitted and contributed the most to projects in this sector. And it's exactly the same people who would stand to benefit here.

Exactly my thoughts every time I see yet another buggy/slow firmware, especially on Chinese gear. I hope one day a company like rigol just let people run their software on _their_ equipment (okay, okay, I know about red pitaya). I honestly don't understand why they don't do that. Unless development costs are insignificant for them (who knows, may there are just a few interns working on it) and they don't want low-priced gear to become too powerful.

Actually, I think all these stupid limitations (no serial decoding, BW limiting, etc) are fear-driven. And it seems the only real game changer on the market are Asian companies :).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kwass on March 20, 2017, 09:11:24 am
Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 20, 2017, 11:20:39 am
Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

I really hope this is true! I looked, however, at the brochure
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf Mentioned by Neganur in an earlier post.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

To be honest it is unclear to me how important advanced math features are to me personally.  I do see the rational for integration (area under the curve between cursors) and differentiation (slope at a point).  However, the value of  some of the other math functions (ln(), exponential() etc. available on alternative products) are less clear to me.  (They make me think of my old analog computer system "control & feedback" days with op amps, inverters etc) 

Mr Wolf has convinced me that some very interesting things can be done with "scope math" so.  To mitigate the risk that (maybe I will need them in the future?) I reviewed the manual under "Remote commands" and it appears you could write an external script to: a)  setup the scope, b) then download waveforms of interest c) process the waveform data in a remote application.  I suspect this is a less than optimum solution for most folks.  It is labor intensive, error prone, not real time, fairly complex to program and requires a lot of foreknowledge about the signals. 

But then again, maybe there is an opportunity for a remote "super UI" that looks the same but has all the computational bells and whistles.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 20, 2017, 01:43:35 pm
Question to Rich from R&S on the R&S®RTB-B6 option - Signal Generator

I watched the video from Watt Circuit at the beginning of this thread and saw the function generator has sweep capability plus some other functions.  I have been unable to find details in the manual or online for this option.  I can find specification sheet only.

Is there an available source you could point me to please?

I would like to understand the sweep capabilities for example:
a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)

I would also like to understand better the abilities of the Pattern generator to generate arbitrary patterns (programmable sequences?)

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 20, 2017, 04:55:29 pm
I would like to understand the sweep capabilities for example:
a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)

According to ( in polish) :
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk)

generator description is shown starting from 5:20
swept linear and log 8:48
modulation AM/FM/ASK/FSK 9:25
gen end 9:40

arbitrary 8:30 ( NDN logo ) has been done externaly
("There is no internal editor so logo has been prepared in external editor and has been loaded into RTB2004 internal generator")

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: knotlogic on March 20, 2017, 05:50:56 pm
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

It's available in Australia as well but no where near the 2K USD deal :(

http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

And Singapore too:

http://sg.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&categoryIdBox=&selectedCategoryId=&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://sg.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&categoryIdBox=&selectedCategoryId=&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

That's about USD 4082 at current exchange rates.  :rant:  Maybe it's a Farnell/Element 14 thing.

That said I can't quite justify shelling out for it anyway.  A pity, it looks like a really good deal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 20, 2017, 08:25:33 pm
As mentioned earlier, the deal was offered to all their distributors, but they didn't want it, presumably as they make more on their other, more expensive brands. The Farnell "offer" is just all options included at the 300MHz price.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 21, 2017, 01:00:29 am
Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

The current math capability is the basic math functions described.  Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany.  No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 21, 2017, 01:07:57 am
Question to Rich from R&S on the R&S®RTB-B6 option - Signal Generator

I watched the video from Watt Circuit at the beginning of this thread and saw the function generator has sweep capability plus some other functions.  I have been unable to find details in the manual or online for this option.  I can find specification sheet only.

Is there an available source you could point me to please?

I would like to understand the sweep capabilities for example:
a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)

I would also like to understand better the abilities of the Pattern generator to generate arbitrary patterns (programmable sequences?)

Thanks in advance
Here's a quick overview:

a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
Linear and Log.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
Start Min: 1Hz
Stop Max:  25MHz
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)
I don't have this handy - I'll see if I can find any documentation on it.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on March 21, 2017, 04:00:49 am
Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

The current math capability is the basic math functions described.  Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany.  No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.

-Rich

Yup, that's a bummer. I have a DS1000Z and while the new RTB2000 is superior in many ways, I know I will miss the more advanced math.

The Rigol has more operations ( addition (A+B), subtraction (A-B), multiplication (AxB), division (A/B), FFT, A&&B, A||B, A^B, !A, Intg, Diff, Sqrt, Lg, Ln, Exp and Abs, low/high/band pass filtering.) according to the manual and can also cascade operations once with one intermediate variable (so you can do Ch1+Ch2+Ch3) - they call this "Fx operation". While I see how arbitrary formulas could be considered a differentiation feature for higher scope, basic maths as in the Rigol (more operation and basic cascading) are par for the course these days (even if the Keysight 2k don't do them either...).
I personally have used the cascading, intg, diff and will miss them if they are not in the RTB2000 (which they clearly are not right now).

It looks like there is also a deficit in triggering types (I haven't looked closely). Things like N-th edge or setup/hold are useful.

DS1000Z manual below for reference  ;)

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 21, 2017, 04:49:40 am
Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

The current math capability is the basic math functions described.  Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany.  No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.

-Rich

Yup, that's a bummer. I have a DS1000Z and while the new RTB2000 is superior in many ways, I know I will miss the more advanced math.

The Rigol has more operations ( addition (A+B), subtraction (A-B), multiplication (AxB), division (A/B), FFT, A&&B, A||B, A^B, !A, Intg, Diff, Sqrt, Lg, Ln, Exp and Abs, low/high/band pass filtering.) according to the manual and can also cascade operations once with one intermediate variable (so you can do Ch1+Ch2+Ch3) - they call this "Fx operation". While I see how arbitrary formulas could be considered a differentiation feature for higher scope, basic maths as in the Rigol (more operation and basic cascading) are par for the course these days (even if the Keysight 2k don't do them either...).
I personally have used the cascading, intg, diff and will miss them if they are not in the RTB2000 (which they clearly are not right now).

It looks like there is also a deficit in triggering types (I haven't looked closely). Things like N-th edge or setup/hold are useful.

DS1000Z manual below for reference  ;)

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf)

Yup, it is a bit of a puzzle.  Given the quality and level of support (expected and delivered) from Tier 1 suppliers.  I would have thought that this was their dominant competitive advantage not "choking" available features like math & triggers.     

As R&S Rich says in a previous post, our feedback may have a positive impact (crosses fingers).

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 21, 2017, 05:50:25 am
DS1000Z ... Diff

Nope. Does not have that one ;)
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1101476/#msg1101476 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1101476/#msg1101476)

As for R&S - not having integration is a bit mocking IMHO. It is like DMM w/o TRMS, a bit too basic for modern times... at least considering price.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 21, 2017, 06:26:11 am
I don't know about the price argument, seeing that none but the two top series of R&S scopes had any advanced math and looking at the price of the HMO 2k 3k series, I can't help but feel the RTB is already priced very competitively.

I could imagine that designing a scope takes some years and that just a couple of years back not so many hobbyists could afford scopes with the features we are offered today. So I am led to believe that this is R&S consciously not putting the math in there rather than 'crippling'.

Compared to the functionality implemented in the Megazoom ASIC which then is deliberately disabled or offered as paid option is perhaps a testament of Keysight's better ability to plan their scope model's feature.

So I think R&S simply did not have math on the list for the RTB but is perhaps able to listen to the customer's feedback that this math is indeed a wanted feature, and they can implement it in firmware updates.

Asking a customer what he wants usually ends in feature creep :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: widlarizer on March 21, 2017, 09:57:09 am
Has someone experience with buying the special edition RTB 2004 at tequipment in combination with "Shipito".(Im from Europe  :palm:)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 10:14:21 am
Has someone experience with buying the special edition RTB 2004 at tequipment in combination with "Shipito".(Im from Europe  :palm:)
From a friend in the UK : Testequity would not ship to an address they knew was a forwarder, ditto Newark.
He does have an order with another US supplier that hasn't been declined (yet).

I'm trying to find out more info from R&S UK, may have more info tomorrow when I go to R&S UK to pick up my review unit.   

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 21, 2017, 04:47:29 pm
After running across this link https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPbIMiK2z7A1XlibvC_oeHpnVmdtBCRHpku1VCgOQeFJkAnn2-D7TXspDXSnQ2tEg?key=aU5nRnVwMl92R0pweWpPcE8tVi05OERkUDlTU3Zn (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPbIMiK2z7A1XlibvC_oeHpnVmdtBCRHpku1VCgOQeFJkAnn2-D7TXspDXSnQ2tEg?key=aU5nRnVwMl92R0pweWpPcE8tVi05OERkUDlTU3Zn) and the little video mixed in with the pictures, I'm feeling better about the displayed waveform update rate.

And unless there is a fan in the powersupply  shield, im not seeing one through any of the vent cut-outs, so this may be mostly passively cooled. Hard to say, as they could have one buried away...  (Keithley DMM7510 comes to mind in crazy fan location design).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 21, 2017, 05:12:47 pm
(Keithley DMM7510 comes to mind in crazy fan location design).

And it is loud!  :(
I think, if R&S did use a similiar cooler design as in the HMO1232 (there is a review from Dave), then it would be much quieter than my DMM 7510.
And for me this is acceptable.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 21, 2017, 05:53:33 pm

I think, if R&S did use a similiar cooler design as in the HMO1232 (there is a review from Dave), then it would be much quieter than my DMM 7510.
And for me this is acceptable.

Yeah after watching that video again (making me happier about my purchase) and looking at the pictures again, I found it..  they've done another diagonal fan on the high compliance mounting, this time into the shielded part on the bottom.  Based on the mount looking the same, I bet its the same ~ 19dB(A) fan.. so yeah... not going to really be able to hear it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 21, 2017, 06:57:26 pm
Does anybody know what kind of logic probe is suitable for RTB2004 ?
I assume there is no one in promo package (only software option is enabled)
and this is not just a straight 250MHz wires ... :-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 07:38:34 pm
Does anybody know what kind of logic probe is suitable for RTB2004 ?
I assume there is no one in promo package (only software option is enabled)
and this is not just a straight 250MHz wires ... :-)
Why would you assume it wouldn't be included? It's sold as a MSO.
 On the RTO, the probe has the comparators and LVDS drivers to send a differential signal over the ribbon.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 21, 2017, 07:58:00 pm
Why would you assume it wouldn't be included? It's sold as a MSO.
 On the RTO, the probe has the comparators and LVDS drivers to send a differential signal over the ribbon.

Maybe it's a little overthink of myself but tequipment says clearly that there are:

What's In The Box
(1) RTB2004 Digital oscilloscope (70 MHz 4 channel)
(1) RTB-B243 Upgrade of R&S RTB2004 oscilloscope to 300 MHz bandwidth
(1) RTB-B1 Mixed Signal Upgrade for non-MSO models (250 MHz)
(1) RTB-B6 ARB Generator
(1) RTB-K1 I2C/SPI Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K2 UART/RS232 Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K3 CAN/LIN Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K15 History and Segment Meomry
(1) RT-ZP03 300 MHz/10 MHz, 10:1/1:1, 10 M?/1 M?, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF Single-ended Passive Probe
(1) Power Cord

I've found that some other source say 4 Analog probes so I hope (1) does not mean one piece of ... in this case. But I can't found pictures/spec etc. what does RTB-B1 include. I've spoke to one of the distributors and he was very uncetrain about those logic probe. I feelt that he do not want to say for potential buyer that there is none.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 21, 2017, 09:18:45 pm

I've found that some other source say 4 Analog probes so I hope (1) does not mean one piece of ... in this case. But I can't found pictures/spec etc. what does RTB-B1 include. I've spoke to one of the distributors and he was very uncetrain about those logic probe. I feelt that he do not want to say for potential buyer that there is none.

R&S is saying here, that the basic model RTB2004 - 70MHz comes with four probes:                          edit: typo
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf    ---   see page 13

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 21, 2017, 10:19:14 pm
Typically, an mso upgrade includes probes and a some kind of entitlement to generate a license key on the R&S website. However, in the case of this special offer, since the distributiors have 4 weeks lead time, maybe they're factory special packed. None of the scopes comes with the logic pods per default unless you buy the option at the time of purchase.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 21, 2017, 10:31:20 pm
Something that makes me wonder is that all the listed accessory probes (current probes, HV diff probes etc.) are 50 ohm. Free feed through terminator included ...?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 10:43:12 pm
Incoming!
Let me know any specific questions. At show today so can't play til later.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 21, 2017, 10:58:38 pm
Incoming!
Let me know any specific questions. At show today so can't play til later.

Unboxing. What is in the package ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrBungle on March 21, 2017, 10:59:32 pm
*sigh* So jealous.
Can't wait for the vid.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: jjoonathan on March 21, 2017, 11:19:14 pm
Incoming!
Let me know any specific questions. At show today so can't play til later.
Why does that mirror have knobs on the side?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 21, 2017, 11:25:44 pm
huh. looked nicer in photo/other video
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on March 22, 2017, 01:07:51 am
I purchased my scope from TestForce here in Canada.

According to them the MSO logic probes are included.

I reviewed the R&S website. There is no option to purchase logic probes or logic pods separately from the MSO option.

I thinks it's reasonable to conclude that the logic probe comes with the MSO option.

If it doesn't, R&S will have a lot of very unhappy customers.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 22, 2017, 02:02:40 am
Incoming!
Let me know any specific questions. At show today so can't play til later.

Does the UI work smothly, and does the display, typically, update at a decent rate? How are the decoding functions?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: trevwhite on March 22, 2017, 02:12:43 am
I asked R&S UK about the MSO and the person I spoke with was under the impression the digital probes are not included. I would try and clarify this because it is an expensive addition.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 22, 2017, 02:41:45 am
Testequity states under the Mixed Signal Option:

"Rohde & Schwarz RTB-B1.02 Mixed Signal Option (250 MHz)
 Adds 16 digital channels (hardware option). (1333.1105.02)  "

Which would point to the logic probes being included in that option. I believe the hmo series doesn't require you to unlock the LA feature, you just need to plug the probes in. It looks like the RTB is the same way.
Title: Cancelled my Tequipment order
Post by: agdr on March 22, 2017, 02:42:17 am
Nevermind.  :) I've spoken with Tequipment this morning and cancelled the cancellation. I'm even buying a second one from another vendor.  Good work R&S on this scope!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: corn11 on March 22, 2017, 02:56:33 am
Does the UI work smothly, and does the display, typically, update at a decent rate? How are the decoding functions?

Thats also one of my major concerns. I've really hated my DS1054Z for the slowish UI.

Altough the KS DSOX2K series is realtively old now, the 30%-off trade-in deal looks kind of appealing to me and the special RTB deal even more but not at the european price point  |O. On the other hand KS might release the successor of the DSOX2K earlier than before to compete against the RTB ?

So the question is, is the RTB2004 base model (without any options) worth considering when you could get a DSO-X2004A for ~600€ less (ex. VAT) (also hackable) or is it maybe better to wait for while ? :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 22, 2017, 03:00:55 am
On the other hand KS might release the successor of the DSOX2K earlier than before to compete against the RTB ?

buit with what? a new asic they haven't even introduced yet? i'd rather put my money on a keysight dsox-2000T
AFAIR there are some things the dsox2000 can't do, like trigger on MSO and multi-channel pattern generator.
wether you need them is another story
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TAMHAN on March 22, 2017, 03:08:48 am
Sorry for being late to the party - I had the guy in my hands at embeddedworld:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjNcjYQEeCM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjNcjYQEeCM)

I am not going to grab it. Multiple reasons:
a) Shit expensive options
b) The scope is real small
c) The pattern generator is lobotomized
d) the "Menu bar" at the right hand of the screen is very sleek

Tam
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JanJansen on March 22, 2017, 03:24:14 am
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm)

EUR 1900.-- + VAT
It is interesting that this website lists Hameg MSO probes as an acessoiry. I think there is more Hameg under the hood than R&S. I hope this scope has the BNCs bolted to the front and the PCB properly fixed to the chassis unlike the cheaply built Hameg scopes.

edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
Title: Re: Cancelled my Tequipment order
Post by: NA5WH on March 22, 2017, 03:47:58 am
Well it looks like this one isn't going to happen.  >:(  The story at Tequipment has changed.  On Friday I was told the unit had been shipped by the R&S warehouse and they would get it in 2 day to reship to me.  I had placed the order at 5AM the morning of the announcement.  Now they are telling me May 3, maybe.  >:( 

Noticed on the TestEquity site "Temporarily Sold Out. Delivery for all new orders is 30 days. Approximately 11 left for new orders as of 3/20 - Place your order before supplies run out completely!"

Still unclear if all scope sold are "new orders" and "delivery for all new orders is 30 days" or if at some point in the past  was okay and that new orders now (for the 11 additional .... allocated?... scopes) is 30 days.   Either way, my "expected date" is 0000-00-00 .

Wonder if R&S just allocated x-number for all of NA, and was going to fulfill direct from EU, but under-estimated the demand...   or if it was a calculated hook to get sales but their were not ready (so far all the versions I've seen on off-hand pictures are identified as "beta" firmware).   But then again, Mike got his hands on his... *shrugs*       I don't mind pre-ordering things, but wish that was made more clear initially, instead of the marking information that said stock was available at their regional distributors.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 03:55:17 am

Does the UI work smothly, and does the display, typically, update at a decent rate? How are the decoding functions?

Quick first impression - some UI aspects are fractionally more sluggish than you might like, e.g. rotary but probably not enough to be annoying. Probably the most annoying thing so far is the position and general entry knobs are detented.
UART Decode looks reasonably good, though datasheet says UART to 32Mbaud but it seems to stop at 3Mbaud. I have queried this as IMO 3M is too low.
I've also had the touchscreen completely stop working on one occasion, needing a power cycle to restore.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JanJansen on March 22, 2017, 04:02:16 am
I,m happy i did not bought a 4 year old scope at this moment,
oh wait, no serial decoding for free ?

Given that R&S are the only company to ever approach me to have hack material removed from the website,

(BTW, they never did get back to me on exact which posts violated their copyright...)

More copyright infrigments soon ?, i might buy this scope then, glad i waited.

A "true game changer" would be to simply make good scopes, with no ransom payments to enable crippled hardware features.

Don't forget as a buyer you are also paying for the counterproductive development of the security features and obfuscation they had to build into the machine to protect their precious cripple-ware tricks.

I could not say it better, thank you for these words, i will repeat it to others, its a no brainer.

I hope this scope has the BNCs bolted to the front and the PCB properly fixed to the chassis unlike the cheaply built Hameg scopes.

The picture dont seems like it, i was looking instantly, maybe they did not read your comments, or wanto save 1 euro ? ( only gold bolts on a gold BNC looks nice)

Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.

Hooraay for the promotion action, yes €800 is insane in 2017, what did they make ?, they already had the software made so it should be free, soon 3rd party promotion actions? , lets wait!
Title: Re: Cancelled my Tequipment order
Post by: kkessler on March 22, 2017, 04:11:53 am

Noticed on the TestEquity site "Temporarily Sold Out. Delivery for all new orders is 30 days. Approximately 11 left for new orders as of 3/20 - Place your order before supplies run out completely!"

Still unclear if all scope sold are "new orders" and "delivery for all new orders is 30 days" or if at some point in the past  was okay and that new orders now (for the 11 additional .... allocated?... scopes) is 30 days.   Either way, my "expected date" is 0000-00-00 .


I ordered mine as soon as I heard about it on March 15th, and I was just told it is going to be "about 4 weeks" until delivery.  It wasn't until several days after I ordered it that they put the Temporarily Sold Out banner up, so I too and somewhat curious as to what is going on.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 22, 2017, 04:25:23 am
I asked R&S UK about the MSO and the person I spoke with was under the impression the digital probes are not included. I would try and clarify this because it is an expensive addition.

On the page for the RTB-B1 Mixed Signal Option on the R&S web page, there is a specification for input impedance of 100 k? ± 2 % || ~4 pF (meas.) at probe tips, which implies to me that, in order for the probes to have input impedance, they have to exist.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 22, 2017, 04:29:44 am
Hi,

I'm new here, but a long term electronics hobbyist and ordered the RTB2k deal at TestEquity.
Got an order confirmation and an expected ship date of 2017-03-31.

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 22, 2017, 04:51:20 am
These are images I've seen of the logic pods for this scope. I'm expecting they are included with the MSO option.

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-B1-Oszilloskop-Mixed-Signal-Option.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-B1-Oszilloskop-Mixed-Signal-Option.htm)
(on the table in this clip) https://youtu.be/SqrGF5yNYe8?t=256 (https://youtu.be/SqrGF5yNYe8?t=256)

To me they look nearly identical to the ones for the HMO1000, although in specs for the RTB I'm seeing 250MHz max whereas the HMO pod listed 350MHz (maybe just a re-spec instead of a HW change?).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on March 22, 2017, 04:51:50 am
Hi Mike,
Quote
Quick first impression - some UI aspects are fractionally more sluggish than you might like, e.g. rotary but probably not enough to be annoying. Probably the most annoying thing so far is the position and general entry knobs are detented.
UART Decode looks reasonably good, though datasheet says UART to 32Mbaud but it seems to stop at 3Mbaud. I have queried this as IMO 3M is too low.
I've also had the touchscreen completely stop working on one occasion, needing a power cycle to restore.

Did it come with the digital logic probes for the MSO?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 05:00:25 am
The remote web access is awesome - it's pretty much like having the scope in front of you.
Even worked pretty well via my phone/wifi, though screen size makes the UI knobs less useable
Title: Re: Cancelled my Tequipment order
Post by: pm.llb on March 22, 2017, 05:21:54 am
It all seems pretty clear -- the distributors had a few units they could ship quickly, and all remaining orders will come from the next shipment.  The 11 number is how many units TestEquity have left to sell from their promo allocation, and has no relationship to the timing of shipments.  Probably that number will fluctuate, I'm sure a few people will end up cancelling their orders.

Mike got a demo unit in the UK, so that has no connection at all with sale units in the US.

5-6 weeks of delivery ( 05'17) ? They probably are sitting now 24/7 and glueing parts together to meet the orders. Does anybody know where scopes are assemblied ? Hopefully not in China .
In the other way, if there were some late hw/sw updates it should be delivered in the second wave ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: corn11 on March 22, 2017, 05:26:36 am
It all seems pretty clear -- the distributors had a few units they could ship quickly, and all remaining orders will come from the next shipment.  The 11 number is how many units TestEquity have left to sell from their promo allocation, and has no relationship to the timing of shipments.  Probably that number will fluctuate, I'm sure a few people will end up cancelling their orders.

Mike got a demo unit in the UK, so that has no connection at all with sale units in the US.

5-6 weeks of delivery ( 05'17) ? They probably are sitting now 24/7 and glueings parts together to meet orders. Does anybody know where scopes are assemblied ? Hopefully not in China . In the other way, if there were some late software updates it should be delivered in the second wave ...

They're probably manufactured at the R&S factory in the Czech Republic.

edit: I haven't remembered that correctly, the factory in Vimperk, CZ already belonged to R&S before they've bought Hameg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hameg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hameg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 05:29:46 am
The UK people are currently talking to each other to see if they can offer a launch deal.
Will post if I hear more. Apparently Farnell should have stock any day ( but at list price ATM).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 05:31:58 am
It all seems pretty clear -- the distributors had a few units they could ship quickly, and all remaining orders will come from the next shipment.  The 11 number is how many units TestEquity have left to sell from their promo allocation, and has no relationship to the timing of shipments.  Probably that number will fluctuate, I'm sure a few people will end up cancelling their orders.

Mike got a demo unit in the UK, so that has no connection at all with sale units in the US.

5-6 weeks of delivery ( 05'17) ? They probably are sitting now 24/7 and glueings parts together to meet orders. Does anybody know where scopes are assemblied ? Hopefully not in China . In the other way, if there were some late software updates it should be delivered in the second wave ...

They're probably manufactured at the former Hameg factory in the Czech Republic.
No indication of manufacture location on unit or packaging
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 22, 2017, 06:06:53 am
confirmed shipping day for me is 28.04.  that's 6 weeks since the day of placing the order 16.03. ugh...(and they already have the money)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 22, 2017, 06:17:24 am
The remote web access is awesome - it's pretty much like having the scope in front of you.
Even worked pretty well via my phone/wifi, though screen size makes the UI knobs less useable

That's good to hear, I just assumed it'd be useless like some others.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on March 22, 2017, 06:53:22 am
Just got 04/28 shipment date from TEquipment (ordered Friday).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 22, 2017, 07:47:18 am
R&S released 3 more marketing videos, all short and pretty unhelpful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA2zYYLr_OI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA2zYYLr_OI)
Waveform Gen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXDjZq_ceOw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXDjZq_ceOw)
Logic Analyzer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tvAf4J4Tjs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tvAf4J4Tjs)
Annotation tool.

*shrugs*     Come on Mike, we're dieing to get some real info  ^-^

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 09:06:20 am
Just finishing quick first impressions and teardown - not sure if I have the energy  to edit tonight.
After that will do a few vids covering particular areas as there's way too much to do a comprehensive review on one go. ( assuming it works after i put it back together!)

Only minor downsides so far :
Detented fine/position knobs.
Wfms/sec not stellar, and reduces with memory depth -  pretty much par for the course with a non-ASIC design.
Touchscreen hung once.
UART decode only up to 3MBaud ( Datasheet says 32 but possibly a typo - have made enquiries)
UI more sluggish than Keysight, but don't think too annoying - time will tell.
Shiny screen is very fingermarky. They should ship it with a cloth.

Lots and lots of good stuff though - launch bundle is still a total no-brainer if you can get it.

And nobody can complain about the PSU. Nichicon caps and the PSU is a stock item in Digikey!

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 22, 2017, 09:10:20 am
For clarity: the PSU is an off-the-shelve part?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: trevwhite on March 22, 2017, 09:14:45 am
Mike, how would you say it holds up against the MSOX3000A series? I know its target is the 2000 series but am curious as it looks a nice piece of kit.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 09:48:08 am
Mike, how would you say it holds up against the MSOX3000A series? I know its target is the 2000 series but am curious as it looks a nice piece of kit.
Major pros and cons both ways. Will go into more detail later, definitely no clear winner, and will depend a lot on what you need.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 09:49:14 am
For clarity: the PSU is an off-the-shelve part?
Yes.
http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/xp-power/ECS65US12/1470-1296-ND/4487677 (http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/xp-power/ECS65US12/1470-1296-ND/4487677)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 22, 2017, 10:21:45 am
Mike, how would you say it holds up against the MSOX3000A series? I know its target is the 2000 series but am curious as it looks a nice piece of kit.

3000A can be upgraded to 1G.,.. 2000 only to 200Mhz..     it seems to me it sits inbtween a 2000 and 3000?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 22, 2017, 10:59:33 am
Mike, how would you say it holds up against the MSOX3000A series? I know its target is the 2000 series but am curious as it looks a nice piece of kit.

3000A can be upgraded to 1G.,.. 2000 only to 200Mhz..     it seems to me it sits inbtween a 2000 and 3000?

Interesting a Keysight
MSOX3034A Mixed Signal Oscilloscope, with options is ~$12,500 (US)
MSOX2024A Mixed Signal Oscilloscope, with options    ~$  4,800 (US)

I look forward to the comparisons

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 22, 2017, 11:00:43 am
How is it for low level sensitivity and triggering, say with a 20Hz, 500µV sine wave?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 11:52:25 am
How is it for low level sensitivity and triggering, say with a 20Hz, 500µV sine wave?
Pretty good - there is a few mV offset on trigger level. Self-cal reduces this a bit but not entirely.
At 1mv/div with the input unconnected there's about half a div worst-case noise, in peak-det mode at max waveform intensity, right up to 300MHz.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 22, 2017, 12:07:31 pm
That seems pretty noisy. Does the noise get less at less sensitive input settings? Or put differently: does the noise come from the frontend or the ADCs?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 22, 2017, 12:20:53 pm
At 1mv/div with the input unconnected there's about half a div worst-case noise, in peak-det mode at max waveform intensity, right up to 300MHz.

I'm curious - does it have an averaging acquisition mode?  If that noise is truly random then averaging should pretty much eliminate it.  Except on my Rigol DS2202A which produces a sinc waveform.:-DD  I'm curious what a real scope does here with averaging.

Also - any difference if the input is shorted instead of open?

Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 12:23:54 pm
That seems pretty noisy. Does the noise get less at less sensitive input settings? Or put differently: does the noise come from the frontend or the ADCs?
The front-end - at lower sensitivities it's pretty much a flat line.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 22, 2017, 12:52:47 pm
Attached is a test done on a HMO1202, using a 20Hz, ~500µV sine wave. It triggered perfectly and the Hi-Res mode cleaned it up so it can be seen. Mike - would you mind trying to see of the RTB can do this? Thank you!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 09:13:04 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcgJSKxj0i0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcgJSKxj0i0)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 09:33:50 pm
Confirmed that there definitely won't be a launch bundle for UK.

Also confirmed that warranty support is worldwide so no issues for imported units
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 22, 2017, 10:34:37 pm
That probe looks quite familliar

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170322/1046d4446c2947d0318e60e1607686a2.jpg)

Did i also see coarse/fine horizontal scale?

The eternal question: does it decode on memory or screen buffer?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: HighVoltage on March 22, 2017, 11:04:06 pm
Nice first impression video, Mike, Thanks

The web interface is probably the fastest I have seen.
Also interesting to see hexagonal air flow holes in the housing, someone was thinking at R&S.
Overall nice impression.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 22, 2017, 11:18:48 pm
When I see the response of the remote access, I have to wonder how quickly you could potentially stream "point" data to a remote processor.  I thought I saw a stream "function" in the remote control documentation, but have not been able to find it again.  (it might have been another scope, I will keep looking)

Even if it was Sub 50 Mp/s that would be a very powerful and unique capability in this class of scope.

PS  BTW I am just wondering ... would it not be better to keep all insects out of a lab setting?  Are they not the actual real life, root of the term "bug" in electronics? :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on March 22, 2017, 11:30:33 pm
Thanks for the useful information and in-depth review!

Could you please give us some info on the FFT performance and whether you can do FFT peak search similar to the HMO1200?

The mirroring and remote control functionality  looks cool, but does it further support downloading the raw data of the channels over that web interface?

Is there also any limitation on what kind of raw data you can get through the usb-mtp connection? (can you get the whole (segmented?) memory or just what is displayed, fft waveform). This would be interesting for further analyzing the waveform in e.g. matlab.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 22, 2017, 11:46:32 pm
Confirmed that there definitely won't be a launch bundle for UK.

Also confirmed that warranty support is worldwide so no issues for imported units

thanks :) not surprised about R&S UK wont do launch bundle. They are not very competition or marketing focused in the UK. I have now had several quotes for R&S gear and they are not flexible anywhere. Must be great to be in that situation :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on March 23, 2017, 12:04:37 am
Has anyone been able to import a (launch offer) unit in Europe?  I tried several us and canada stores but they declined to sell abroad.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 23, 2017, 12:09:04 am
Must be great to be in that situation :)

Basically had the same experience with R&S folks here. If you're not able to wave big bundles of money, they're yawning. Even items from their used store, forget it if you're trying to haggle.
They're of course very friendly people still - must be company policy or something.

I had a whole different experience when talking to Keysight's people.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 23, 2017, 01:29:46 am
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:

The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:

>> 2 Channel MSO <<

> HMO1212 (1195,-€) scope 2CH;100MHz;10kWfm/s
> simple waveform generator  SIN;SQR;PLS;SAW;TRI;DC;<50kHz
+ HO3508 (308,-€) logic probe 8CH;1GS
+ HOO10 (298,-€) serial decoding I2C;SPI;UART;RS232
= 1801,- Euro + VAT
--

> RTB2002 (1250,-€) scope 2CH;70MHz;50kWfm/s
+ RTB-B221 (275,-€) bandwidth upgrade 100MHz
+ RTB-K1 (480,-) serial decoding I2C;SPI
+ RTB-K2 (480,-) serial decoding UART;RS232
+ RTB-B1 (700,-) mixed signal option 16CH;1.25GS
+ RTB-B6 (700,-) arbitrary waveform generator <50MBit/s
= 3885,- Euro + VAT
--

>> 4 Channel MSO <<

> HMO1024(1965,-)
> no waveform generator
+ HO3508 (308,-€) logic probe 8CH;1GS
+ HOO10 (298,-€) serial decoding I2C;SPI;UART;RS232
= 2571,- Euro + VAT

--

> RTB2004 (1900,-€) scope 4CH;70MHz;50kWfm/s
+ RTB-B241 (225,-€) bandwidth upgrade 100MHz
+ RTB-K1 (480,-) serial decoding I2C;SPI
+ RTB-K2 (480,-) serial decoding UART;RS232
+ RTB-B1 (700,-) mixed signal option 16CH;1.25GS
= 3785,- Euro + VAT


Source: Price and options: http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/de/r-srrtb2004bu.html (http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/de/r-srrtb2004bu.html)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 23, 2017, 01:35:38 am
Must be great to be in that situation :)

Basically had the same experience with R&S folks here. If you're not able to wave big bundles of money, they're yawning. Even items from their used store, forget it if you're trying to haggle.
They're of course very friendly people still - must be company policy or something.

I had a whole different experience when talking to Keysight's people.

I think it is a company policy - had same polite but dismissive and non-interested attitude when I dealt with their HQ when I was in the UAE.

Last time I asked for a quote on the ScopeRider in the UK - when I told the sales guy the quoted SRP was too much for my current budget - he never even bothered to reply to that email.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: termi on March 23, 2017, 01:52:03 am
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:

The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:

>> 2 Channel MSO <<

> HMO1212 (1195,-€) scope 2CH;100MHz;10kWfm/s
> simple waveform generator  SIN;SQR;PLS;SAW;TRI;DC;<50kHz
+ HO3508 (308,-€) logic probe 8CH;1GS
+ HOO10 (298,-€) serial decoding I2C;SPI;UART;RS232
= 1801,- Euro + VAT
--

> RTB2002 (1250,-€) scope 2CH;70MHz;50kWfm/s
+ RTB-B221 (275,-€) bandwidth upgrade 100MHz
+ RTB-K1 (480,-) serial decoding I2C;SPI
+ RTB-K2 (480,-) serial decoding UART;RS232
+ RTB-B1 (700,-) mixed signal option 16CH;1.25GS
+ RTB-B6 (700,-) arbitrary waveform generator <50MBit/s
= 3885,- Euro + VAT
--

>> 4 Channel MSO <<

> HMO1024(1965,-)
> no waveform generator
+ HO3508 (308,-€) logic probe 8CH;1GS
+ HOO10 (298,-€) serial decoding I2C;SPI;UART;RS232
= 2571,- Euro + VAT

--

> RTB2004 (1900,-€) scope 4CH;70MHz;50kWfm/s
+ RTB-B241 (225,-€) bandwidth upgrade 100MHz
+ RTB-K1 (480,-) serial decoding I2C;SPI
+ RTB-K2 (480,-) serial decoding UART;RS232
+ RTB-B1 (700,-) mixed signal option 16CH;1.25GS
= 3785,- Euro + VAT


Source: Price and options: http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/de/r-srrtb2004bu.html (http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/de/r-srrtb2004bu.html)

In the US they sell the RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for $1260 which includes all serial options + segmented memory + wavegen. If this is also available in Europe, it would make some of your configurations significantly cheaper.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tequipment on March 23, 2017, 01:52:40 am
Hello.  Just to post a note we have 3 scopes left at the promo deal for RS and then we will be killing off the Promo.

RS limited this deal to a limited number of units.

Thanks for all the business.

Best Regards,
Evan Cirelli
Vice President TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: apomerleau on March 23, 2017, 01:56:43 am
The TestEquity web site shows a similar message:

"Delivery for all new orders is 30 days. Only 3 left for new orders as of 3/21 - Place your order before supplies run out completely!"

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 23, 2017, 02:05:01 am
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:

The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:

...

In the US they sell the RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for $1260 which includes all serial options + segmented memory + wavegen. If this is also available in Europe, it would make some of your configurations significantly cheaper.

I can't find any bundles available here in Europe. Maybe only for big customers. :rant:

And if I understand it right TestEquity, TEquipment.NET or other US suppliers do not want or can not sell this special offer back to Europe.  :(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: termi on March 23, 2017, 02:12:26 am
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:

The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:

...

In the US they sell the RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for $1260 which includes all serial options + segmented memory + wavegen. If this is also available in Europe, it would make some of your configurations significantly cheaper.

I can't find any bundles available here in Europe. Maybe only for big customers. :rant:

And if I understand it right TestEquity or other US suppliers do not want or can not sell this special offer to Europe.  :(

Looks like at least Farnell Germany might have the app bundle available soon?
http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 23, 2017, 02:23:01 am
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:

The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:

...

In the US they sell the RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for $1260 which includes all serial options + segmented memory + wavegen. If this is also available in Europe, it would make some of your configurations significantly cheaper.

I can't find any bundles available here in Europe. Maybe only for big customers. :rant:

And if I understand it right TestEquity or other US suppliers do not want or can not sell this special offer to Europe.  :(

Looks like at least Farnell Germany might have the app bundle available soon?
http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

Thank's! That looks good. But it's a software only bundle. Better than nothing.
Two days ago I asked R&S about the early adopter bundle for Europe and they are moving the question to some sales office...

The complete bundle (RTB2004 OSCILLOSCOPE 4 CHANNEL, 300MHz PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE) is for 5500,- Euro + VAT. Compare that to $ 2080+VAT in the US?  >:(

http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Alex P on March 23, 2017, 05:01:17 am
Must be great to be in that situation :)

Basically had the same experience with R&S folks here. If you're not able to wave big bundles of money, they're yawning. Even items from their used store, forget it if you're trying to haggle.
They're of course very friendly people still - must be company policy or something.

I had a whole different experience when talking to Keysight's people.

I think it is a company policy - had same polite but dismissive and non-interested attitude when I dealt with their HQ when I was in the UAE.

Last time I asked for a quote on the ScopeRider in the UK - when I told the sales guy the quoted SRP was too much for my current budget - he never even bothered to reply to that email.

My experience is quite different and much better. I recently bought an RTM2000 from Rohde & Schwarz Benelux (that's in Europe, the Netherlands). Got a nice discount. Their website explicitly mentions they sell to private persons in NL. After the christmas holiday period, emails were answered reasonably fast; the first offer even included an HMO2024 at a discount (so, yes, they were willing to take the trouble to sell me a single humble 'scope). They also offered ex-demo and non-current stuff at (rather higher) discounts (the website is not kept current for this though, so ask!). I tried the RTM2000 at their office for several hours (I declined their offer to ship me one to try it out).  Satisfied customer :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 23, 2017, 06:33:16 am
The TestEquity web site shows a similar message:

"Delivery for all new orders is 30 days. Only 3 left for new orders as of 3/21 - Place your order before supplies run out completely!"

Yeah I think I can see what is going on here now.  There must be just the one "pool" of (additional?) available promo units at the wholesaler, or R&S directly, that both US distributors (Tequipment, Test Equity) are selling from.  I'll take a guess that nothing has been, or will be, actually ordered from R&S until those 3 units left in the "pool" are sold.  Then a batch order processed (built?) by R&S.  That explains the sliding delivery date estimates, both distributors likely didn't know for sure when the clock would start on delivery lead time until the whole batch of available promo units were sold.

I'm curious if any promo bundles *at all* were actually available & ready for immediate shipment in the US when this started! If so those lucky few folks should be getting their units this week or next, I would think.  If anyone receives one, please post!  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 23, 2017, 06:39:33 am
Thanks for the overview Mike.

It is too bad they went with such a cheap LCD, for a few dollars more they could have gotten one with an oleophobic coating. The fingerprints will be so nasty, hard to believe it really is glass.

Still at the intro special pricing for US/Canada it is a great deal.

The remote web interface puts Keysight's to shame. The MSO cable without a proper handle to pull on to remove them is rather lame.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 23, 2017, 06:41:09 am
I ordered mine on march 15 and have an expected ship date of march 31.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 23, 2017, 06:45:50 am
That does sound like one that was ready to ship!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 23, 2017, 06:47:16 am
Thanks for the teardown Mike. One thing I noticed is: No flash memory? Must be in the FPGA then?
I don't really like the looks, both front and rear (but who cares about the rear). The LCD is shiny and covered with finger prints, the panel just looks cheap to me.
Sure, it's not the most important feature of a scope but compared to a Keysight MSOX/DSOX it's the ugly duck.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zebble on March 23, 2017, 07:03:47 am
Looks like promo's are sold out!  Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada).  Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.

Less than 2 weeks and that's it!?  Come on R&S.  I've never purchased R&S before, nor will I now.  Pretty shady.

Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?

FYI:  This in no way reflects on my positive opinion about TestForce.  Ty was very helpful, responsive and apologetic when he learned of this treason on R&S's part.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 07:04:32 am
Thanks for the teardown Mike. One thing I noticed is: No flash memory? Must be in the FPGA then?
No, it will be one of the BGAs. I didn't look up all the numbers
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 07:07:08 am
Looks like promo's are sold out!  Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada).  Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.

Less than 2 weeks and that's it!?  Come on R&S.  I've never purchased R&S before, nor will I now.  Pretty shady.

Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?

FYI:  This in no way reflects on my positive opinion about TestForce.  Ty was very helpful, responsive and apologetic when he learned of this treason on R&S's part.
Aiui it was a global (!) Allocation of 200. I'm not aware of any other units out there apart from the 3 or so seen on Youtube.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on March 23, 2017, 07:23:09 am
Looks like promo's are sold out!  Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada).  Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.

Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?

I also got a quote from Testforce on Monday but I placed the order that afternoon.  They sent me a confirmation number and invoice Tuesday morning so as far as I know I've gotten in (here's hoping I don't get a surprise email tomorrow).  The quote said delivery in 6 weeks, the actual invoice doesn't give a date at all.

First time dealing with Testforce and they seemed quite responsive and helpful.  Even sent a follow-up email after the first quote that available launch packages were disappearing fast and I should decide soon.

Way more scope than I need but I was in the market (was seriously considering the SDS2204x) and  the R&S launch deal looked way too good to ignore.  Here's hoping it's not a version 1.0 dud.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thm_w on March 23, 2017, 07:25:37 am
Looks like promo's are sold out!  Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada).  Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.
Less than 2 weeks and that's it!?  Come on R&S.  I've never purchased R&S before, nor will I now.  Pretty shady.
Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?
FYI:  This in no way reflects on my positive opinion about TestForce.  Ty was very helpful, responsive and apologetic when he learned of this treason on R&S's part.

Its not shady at all, you tried to get the promo and missed out.
Partially due to TestForce, as they don't seem to have the resources for an online ordering system or ability to display prices on the site (typical of Canadian test equipment suppliers).
Thanks for updating us though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 23, 2017, 07:33:01 am
Watching your vid Mike, one comment/question.
Is the trace color scheme user configurable ?

I ask as it seems not the usual trace color scheme of: Yellow, Red/Cyan, Blue and Green for ch 4.  :-//

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 23, 2017, 07:40:26 am
Mike,

Does the kit include some PC software for arbitrary generator signal preparation ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 07:53:00 am
Mike,

Does the kit include some PC software for arbitrary generator signal preparation ?
Not looked at gen at all yet -if there is anything it will be on website.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 23, 2017, 08:51:41 am
Not looked at gen at all yet -if there is anything it will be on website.
Great. Thank you for your work. If you be so kind and check in a spare time what is exact XY screen size
it will be possible to order some tablet oleophobic screen protector during over month waiting period :-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 23, 2017, 09:24:13 am
I just looked at the teardown and it is build like the Hamegs: cheap. The PCB isn't well supported (to make things worse also parallel with the base) and the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis.  :palm: For a scope which is moved around (maybe dropped) these are very weak points.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 09:49:32 am
Watching your vid Mike, one comment/question.
Is the trace color scheme user configurable ?

No, apart from the rainbow modes. They are different to the more standard colour set, maybe to better match what the RGB LEDs can render. Something that struck me just as I was going out tonight is that I'm not sure how good a fit the probe colour sleeves are to the screen colours - will check tomorrow.

Quote
I ask as it seems not the usual trace color scheme

Define "usual"... I'm used to yellow,green,blue,pink. for 1-4. Blue (at least the shade on Agilent/Keysight) sucks as it's a bit too dim.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 09:55:07 am
I just looked at the teardown and it is build like the Hamegs: cheap. The PCB isn't well supported (to make things worse also parallel with the base) and the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis.  :palm: For a scope which is moved around (maybe dropped) these are very weak points.
I really don't see an issue - there is a lot of solder, and the PCB appears to be edge plated, so the solder contacts on 3 sides of the PCB, and the PCB is screwed to the chassis close to every connector.
I think you'd have to try pretty hard to break them.
The PCB itself has plenty of screws into the aluminium chassis plate.

If you consider drop-proofness an important parameter in a $2-6K scope, maybe you're looking at the wrong type of scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on March 23, 2017, 09:57:45 am
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 23, 2017, 09:59:08 am
My DSOX2002A is built like a tank, but it is not drop resistant.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 23, 2017, 10:08:23 am
Watching your vid Mike, one comment/question.
Is the trace color scheme user configurable ?

No, apart from the rainbow modes. They are different to the more standard colour set, maybe to better match what the RGB LEDs can render. Something that struck me just as I was going out tonight is that I'm not sure how good a fit the probe colour sleeves are to the screen colours - will check tomorrow.

Quote
I ask as it seems not the usual trace color scheme

Define "usual"... I'm used to yellow,green,blue,pink. for 1-4. Blue (at least the shade on Agilent/Keysight) sucks as it's a bit too dim.
Usual for me is Y, P, B, G .....yet an old 2 ch Tek DSO I have is Y, B.  :-//
It's not so confusing with only 2 colors to keep track of, 4 well that could be a different matter.

What is standard or usual if you like ? Is there some commonly accepted color scheme for channel layout ?
IMO this could be a trap for the unsuspecting and something that would take some getting used to if changing scope brands.
 :-\
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 10:15:40 am
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...
If it was a Chinese company, or someone unknown ( or maybe Tektronix  ;) ) , I'd totally agree that it would be a gamble . However with the bigger players you have brand reputation that give a decent level of confidence that it will be a good product. You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
Remember why they are doing the promo - to get kit out there for visibility and word of mouth, not to clear out crappy old stock that didn't sell
They wouldn't do that if they didn't think it would stand up.
Whether it's worth the normal list price is another question of course.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 23, 2017, 10:17:37 am
I just looked at the teardown and it is build like the Hamegs: cheap. The PCB isn't well supported (to make things worse also parallel with the base) and the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis.  :palm: For a scope which is moved around (maybe dropped) these are very weak points.
I really don't see an issue - there is a lot of solder, and the PCB appears to be edge plated, so the solder contacts on 3 sides of the PCB, and the PCB is screwed to the chassis close to every connector.
I think you'd have to try pretty hard to break them.
I've seen various pieces of equipment which have had an accident. Equipment with the BNCs bolted to the chassis only have damage to the BNCs. However when the BNCs are held by solder they just shear off the board and I really don't want to think what happens to a BGA on that board.

Also just connecting/disconnecting cables will be a long term problem. Tin isn't a metal which can deal with mechanical load and will fatique over time (think about brittle solder joints on TO220 packages in old TVs/monitors). There are some examples of Tektronix TDS200 series scopes which show the BNCs-soldered-to-board problems after much use.

Board flexing can be a problem even when a piece of equipment is generally handled with care. Laptop hard drives are rated to deal with several hundred Gs because of this. This is why it is better to mount a PCB in a way it is much less likely to flex when a piece of equipment is set down.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 23, 2017, 10:33:20 am
You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
If you can live with 200MHz there is an alternative for the same price and available worldwide. Some pros and cons ofcourse but all in all pretty much in the same ballpark.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 23, 2017, 10:40:02 am
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...

Here is my point of view. R&S is not an unknown and they have nothing to gain by releasing a few cheap scopes. That's my number 1 assurance that "blindly" putting down ~2300$ will turn out alright. The next would be the fact that for the money I can not get that much scope. If it does half of what it says I can't get that much scope for the money. The final thing which is really the thing that makes it easy to do... I can cancel my order, I can return it if I don't like it. If everyone who touches one says "Nope!", I can cancel at anytime and not think about it again. I can play with it for a couple days too, and if I don't like it then it goes right back. It's essentially no risk. The upside though... I can get a very nice little scope for a small amount of money. The closest, cheapest keysight scope would be the MSOX2024A, with a list price of 3500$. You add in the options and it's instantly a no brainer.

Let's assume the scope doesn't live up to its' specs but does work well... What are my equivalent options in this price range?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: lem_ix on March 23, 2017, 10:40:56 am
Thanks for the teardown Mike, would be great to hear about it after a few weeks of use. Seems nicely designed, wonder if it's compatible with Hameg logic probes? Guess we're only missing a drop test now, hopefully Dave can put it to the standard test soon :D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on March 23, 2017, 10:56:48 am
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...
If it was a Chinese company, or someone unknown ( or maybe Tektronix  ;) ) , I'd totally agree that it would be a gamble . However with the bigger players you have brand reputation that give a decent level of confidence that it will be a good product. You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
Remember why they are doing the promo - to get kit out there for visibility and word of mouth, not to clear out crappy old stock that didn't sell
They wouldn't do that if they didn't think it would stand up.
Whether it's worth the normal list price is another question of course.

Mike, thanks for explaining.
That line of reasoning is absolutely logical.. From that standpoint, absolutely logical to buy, I understand now..  Think of it as Rigol MSO4034 with bigger screen and done well by reputable brand. Definitely worth that money.

As for full price, I'm prepared to pay more than Rigol with similar (on the paper) specs.. But not 3x, more like 30-50% more.. And they would sell like hot cakes.

For the kind of money they are asking now as retail, I will buy something else and live with it's imperfections...

Regards,
Sinisa
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 23, 2017, 11:00:34 am
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube.

I bought one, and know it is a gamble, but a fully loaded scope for $2K with these specs is a fairly high reward, low risk gamble; the scope package will really have to suck not to be worth the price.  My main interest is in embedded stuff, so the MSO and protocol decodes are pretty high on my list, and it would be difficult for me to get those things for that price in any other package.  Just price out what that would be on a Keysight 2000X.  Then add a 10" screen, which, as my age advances, could be really useful.

As to personal preferences, this is a piece of test equipment, not a lifetime commitment.  My preference is that is it able to meet my requirements to tell me what is going on inside the device I'm trying to debug.  If I don't like the single vertical input, oh well, I'll get used to it.  If I don't like the fact that I can't drop it from 2 meters, I won't do that.  If I start have a new set of requirements that include dropping the scope regularly, I'll shop for a new scope that meets that requirement.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Paul Moir on March 23, 2017, 11:16:04 am
I bought one, and know it is a gamble, ...
I don't even think it's much of a gamble.  Even if you hated it, I bet you could turn around and sell it for more than you paid.  Especially if you offered shipping to Europe.  :)
I'm glad the promo is over.  I was so strongly tempted to order one, but I really have no practical use for this 'scope.  Congrats to the 200 who did get one! 
Title: The soft case and front cover
Post by: agdr on March 23, 2017, 11:18:09 am
I bought the soft case for it, RTB-Z3, just from the part number listings without being able to find a photo anywhere.  Just did some more Googling and finally found a picture:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm)

Looks a little more "floppy" than the Rigol case for my 2000 series.  Velco closure too instead of snaps of some kind.  Should do the job though for normal amounts of transport.

R&S also lists a front cover, RTB-Z1.  Didn't get that one, but here is a picture from the same distributor's site:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm)
Title: Re: The soft case and front cover
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 11:31:07 am
I bought the soft case for it, RTB-Z3, just from the part number listings without being able to find a photo anywhere.  Just did some more Googling and finally found a picture:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm)

Looks a little more "floppy" than the Rigol case for my 2000 series.  Velco closure too instead of snaps of some kind.  Should do the job though for normal amounts of transport.

R&S also lists a front cover, RTB-Z1.  Didn't get that one, but here is a picture from the same distributor's site:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm)
E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on March 23, 2017, 11:34:35 am
I was able to snag one from TestForce in Canada on Monday morning. (Sorry Zebble! :D). I think at 11:00 AM I was number 3 of 10 scopes that they had allocated for Canada. They must of gone really quick.

I feel rather foolish purchasing before it has been thoroughly reviewed, however that's the risk inherent in this. What motivated me in the end was my need for a usable MSO and 4 channels.

I would place this scope in terms of specs somewhere between the:
Keysight MSOX2024A 200 MHz, 4 Analog Plus 8 Digital CA$ 4,606 with no options and the
Keysight MSOX3034T 350 MHz, 4 Analog Plus 16 Digital for a whopping CA$ 13,048 also with no options

It's possible that once it's available R&S may run promotions to boost sales. The competition has never been higher in the scope market. Hopefully it will drive competitors prices down from the stratosphere.....

BTW Mike thanks for the super quick review. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: The soft case and front cover
Post by: agdr on March 23, 2017, 12:00:17 pm
E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.

I'm kind of wondering what the point in a front cover would even be with this scope.  My first thought was keeping dust out in some sort of dusty shop environment, but that won't help with the open back.  From your video it seems to me that fingerprints from actual use are going to be the screen's biggest enemy.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 12:06:17 pm
Hard cover is handy when you want to pack the scope in a bag with other stuff. dedicated scope bag is less useful as chances are you have other stuff as well, so scope bag adds unnecessary bulk.
However those big holes in the R&S rear make it a bit riskier to chuck into a bag of tools.
Title: Re: The soft case and front cover
Post by: gslick on March 23, 2017, 12:49:04 pm
I bought the soft case for it, RTB-Z3, just from the part number listings without being able to find a photo anywhere.  Just did some more Googling and finally found a picture:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm)

Looks a little more "floppy" than the Rigol case for my 2000 series.  Velco closure too instead of snaps of some kind.  Should do the job though for normal amounts of transport.

The beginning of this video starts with the RTB2004 being removed from the soft case. Just a quick shot, not a real good look at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0)

In the US $90 for the RTB-Z1 plastic front cover plus another $210 for the RTB-Z3 soft carrying bag seems a bit expensive compared to $150 for the Keysight N6457A Soft Carrying Case and Front Panel Cover for the InfiniiVision 2000 / 3000 X-Series, or $115 for the Keysight N2738A Soft Carrying Case for the InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 23, 2017, 01:02:18 pm
Just buy a cheaparse camcorder bag from ebay, e.g. eBay auction: #301939847237
Title: Re: The soft case and front cover
Post by: JonM on March 23, 2017, 01:22:01 pm

E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.

The Keysight front covers are optional. The cover for my 3024T cost US$46.04 (with small discount). I had one on my Agilent scope and strongly recommend getting one to protect the screen and knobs. Sometimes I even put it on when the scope is sitting on my desk.

Recently there was a smashed screen Keysight scope on eBay (for parts) and my first thought was that they should have bought the cover, my second thought was if it had option licenses that I could move to my scope...
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 23, 2017, 01:28:10 pm
Legit licenses are connected to the scope's model and serial number, there is no way to legally transfer them.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 23, 2017, 01:54:23 pm
I too was fortunate.  I acquired a RTB2004 from Testforce (Canada) and was delighted with the experience.  Expected delivery 6 weeks. 

My view on the marketing strategy, and my buying decision.

This special offering approximately 70% off the retail price was designed to incent early adoption of the RTB2004 by folks like us.  Retail prices are determined by market forces.  I confirmed this is in an informal manner by searching for "Equivalent" scopes by the other Tier 1 suppliers.  The "fully loaded" retail price ~$6500 (US) of these scopes is consistent for this capability & feature set.  Companies may differ in the feature mix and there are some trade-offs within each brand but generally they are comparable.

All new scopes need marketing support upon market entry.  Keysight choose to have a "scope month" and give away scopes and generate buzz that way.  R&S sold ~200 scopes with a discount of ~70% to create their buzz. 

Based on the marketing information, online manuals, datasheet and interaction with a company rep here on the forum.  I believe this scope meets my most demanding needs.  It just makes sense to acquire if the price is right for me. 

I look at it this way.  I bought a $2080 (us) lottery ticket, with a 100% chance to win a desirable prize worth $6500 (retail).  In the short run, the prize has an expected future value of more than I paid ($2080+ all other costs (tax, shipping, sales expense), classic zero downside decision.

As a pure business decision, it is a no brainer.  Take the deal!    Even more so if you have little negotiating power with the vendors.  For me, the retail price is a rigid wall that does not move (much) unless the manufacturer offers an incentive.  I know that corporate and institutional buyers simply use "list price" as a starting point and perhaps enjoy the dialogue with their dedicated sales rep on the golf course, alas I miss those days. :'(

In terms of Tier 2 Suppliers they typically are 20%-30% cheaper as an offset for lower levels of offered support; documentation, access to engineering support, training materials, etc.  Even though you get the capability & feature set from tier 2, you are much more on your own.  In some regions this can be offset by a dedicated and ethical distributor, this was not my experience.  Having personally suffered a few times with well meaning yet unsupported technical staff, I am done buying from tier 2. 

PS 
As for the notion that this introduction price sets a new "retail price" going forward.  It does not, just look to the European pricing.
or do we believe Keysight must continue giving away scopes at the rate of 5 per day indefinitely? :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on March 23, 2017, 02:25:07 pm

As for the notion that this introduction price sets a new "retail price" going forward.  It does not...

I don't know. It may be their intent to go back to the original MSRP but I'm not sure that will hold for long.  They have set an expected price for this scope now and rational or not, price sensitive consumers are not going to be willing to now spend 3x as much for the same scope anytime soon. At least those in the "prosumer"/hobbiest/professional home use category who are aware of this scopes introduction and this introductory price.   It may be a nice scope but from what I've read so far I see no reason to believe the full featured version will be able to out-compete  other $5-6K scopes.

I believe there's a concept in economics that says once a lower price is established - it's difficult to significantly raise prices again.  Sure, they will be able to sell scopes at the original MSRP - but how many?  How much market penetration will they see? Especially with other scope makers ramping up their offerings.

This is kind of the opposite of UPOD (under promise, over deliver). There's gonna be a lot of people out there very unenthusiastic about paying 3x more for this scope with those included features or buying a bare bones scope for the same price as what a full featured one was temporarily available for.

We'll have to see how this plays out. I think it might be a year or two before we know the answer as to what price the market will bear for this scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 23, 2017, 02:36:54 pm
Well, it was the same with Keysight when the 2k and 3k X-series launched. There were promotions that came and went. Free fgen, free DMM, then 30% off, then free MSO option etc. There will always be a time when a promotion ends and you just missed the train.

I don't think you have much leverage trying to bully your way to a lower price after the promotion ends ("but you had it 30% cheaper last month...!"), just wait for the next promotional sale. The R&S one is ofc different due to the limited number style sales vs. Keysight's limited time offers but also R&S have those promotions fairly often.
Title: Re: The soft case and front cover
Post by: agdr on March 23, 2017, 02:39:05 pm
The beginning of this video starts with the RTB2004 being removed from the soft case. Just a quick shot, not a real good look at it.

Interesting!  I completely missed that.  The one and only time I tried viewing that video I was using the cell phone.  The cell's video playback was working so badly it started a ways into the video, then I just gave up after a few minutes.  Never did circle back on a PC.  So sure enough, velcro.  Given I choice I would prefer snaps, like the Rigol bag has, but it will do.  The Rigol bag is great!  It is one thing Rigol got right.  Kind of a stiff molded material on the outside with softer insides.  Provides some pretty good "bumping" protection.  This R&S bag probably won't.

Yeah there must be about $20 USD of materials in that R&S bag, tops. But hey the stitched R&S name has to be worth at least $100, right?  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 23, 2017, 02:40:54 pm
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube.

I guess like many other voices, I do not think its much a gamble.

I currently don't have a scope, its been awhile since I've had one (various reasons) and I was in the market already for a new scope. Ideally I budgeted $1500. When I saw Mike make mention of it on twitter, and then looked into it, I found that for just a little bit more than my ideal budget I could get, in my estimation, about twice as much as my budget allowed and basically a "retail" of nearly 4 times my budget (granted I think some retail prices are a bit in crazy land, and we all know that more various sales will occur, and prices will come down at some point... market is the market). It has far more display real estate than many of the scopes I've looked at. But yes, virtually sight unseen. Now if this had been a Rigol or equivalent, I don't think I'd squeeze the trigger (not that I probably wont buy some Rigol stuff down the line). But I was already familiar with a few of R&S's other products, and their level of service.   And considering I still can cancel, and I probably can sell it for at least what I paid if I really don't like it, if not more... its hard to see the downside.

Does it have flaws?  Yeah. Lack of 50-ohm (especially with such sensitivity) seems weird to me. As does detent on fine adjusts. I'm sure there will be other things, but even the scopes I looked at, there are features I want that I can't get, so its all trade offs.

Only thing that bothers me is the release. It seems obvious that R&S had some sort of issue close to release. They didn't get scopes in the hands of a few reviewers on-time, and it seems that they didn't have any production units actually ready to go (i've still seen/heard no actual production scopes in anyone's hands... btw Mike, is yours beta firmware too like the many other screen shots I've seen?), even though their marketing materials said they did.  I do understand, though, they "had" to get to market this month, because of all the other competition.  And as much as I "want it right now", if they did find an issue that they can fix and make it better before its in my hands, awesome (as long as we're not talking months from now). 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 23, 2017, 02:49:16 pm

As for the notion that this introduction price sets a new "retail price" going forward.  It does not...

I don't know. It may be their intent to go back to the original MSRP but I'm not sure that will hold for long.  They have set an expected price for this scope now and rational or not, price sensitive consumers are not going to be willing to now spend 3x as much for the same scope anytime soon. At least those in the "prosumer"/hobbiest/professional home use category who are aware of this scopes introduction and this introductory price.   It may be a nice scope but from what I've read so far I see no reason to believe the full featured version will be able to out-compete  other $5-6K scopes.

I believe there's a concept in economics that says once a lower price is established - it's difficult to significantly raise prices again.  Sure, they will be able to sell scopes at the original MSRP - but how many?  How much market penetration will they see? Especially with other scope makers ramping up their offerings.

This is kind of the opposite of UPOD (under promise, over deliver). There's gonna be a lot of people out there very unenthusiastic about paying 3x more for this scope with those included features or buying a bare bones scope for the same price as what a full featured one was temporarily available for.

We'll have to see how this plays out. I think it might be a year or two before we know the answer as to what price the market will bear for this scope.

I'm pretty sure it's as competitive as any R&S scope is now on price so it seems far fetched to think it would drastically change because of a limited launch promotion. It's also important to remember how much it has on top of alot of other comparable scopes. People keep comparing to keysight 3000x scopes but that's not what they're targeting, which is 2000 series scopes. Unless you think everybody is going to adjust their pricing because of another manufacturers 200 unit promotion, I don't see the reason for the baseless speculation that they'll never be able to sell them now.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on March 23, 2017, 03:15:36 pm
Quote from: maginnovision link=topic=84856.msg1168080#msg1168080
Unless you think everybody is going to adjust their pricing because of another manufacturers 200 unit promotion, I don't see the reason for the baseless speculation that they'll never be able to sell them now.

I never said that "they'll never be able to sell them now".  Of course they'll sell some - as I said - the question is how many and at what price?

I certainly don't expect they will change their MSRP to the promotional price or that other scope makers will drop equivalent scope's MSRP to that price.

What I do think will likely happen is that if they want to elevate their market position with this scope, they'll likely need to either drastically cut the price of the basic upgrade options or regularly offer promotions which get a lot closer the level of this original promotion.

Really - as others pointed out early in this thread - before the promotion was anounced -charging $540 for basic serial triggering and decoding  in this class of scope is just not gonna fly if they want to be a market leader.  And $1860 extra to get to 300 MHz? 

I just think that kind of pricing that was perhaps previously working for Keysight, etc will not still be working in 1-2 years.  Admittedly this is all speculation - but I feel like we're seeing a turning point in the low -mid level ($1k-4K) scope market and this is just the beginning. Their promotional pricing was a preview of what's coming. :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 23, 2017, 03:19:24 pm
Does anyone know if you can use this scope with a USB mouse ? Might save the screen from getting grubby and I am much more productive with a mouse than a touch screen.

cheers
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gslick on March 23, 2017, 03:34:26 pm
Does anyone know if you can use this scope with a USB mouse ? Might save the screen from getting grubby and I am much more productive with a mouse than a touch screen.

Around a minute into this video he plugs in a USB mouse and uses it to drag the waveform around on the screen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bitwelder on March 23, 2017, 04:58:29 pm
Regarding the glossy touchscreen, I guess it should be possible to add one of those 'protective screen' for tablets, that have matte finish and leave less fingerprint traces.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 23, 2017, 05:11:52 pm
Regarding the glossy touchscreen, I guess it should be possible to add one of those 'protective screen' for tablets, that have matte finish and leave less fingerprint traces.
Considering how roughly handled most lab equipment can be, the impact protective qualities of a glass screen protector might be very useful.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 23, 2017, 05:20:10 pm
Does anyone know who makes the BNC connectors in these R&S scope? Surface mount connectors, accessible to the user, are usually a mechanical disaster, but this slotting arrangement looks like it might actually be robust.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on March 23, 2017, 06:07:11 pm
Does anyone know who makes the BNC connectors in these R&S scope? Surface mount connectors, accessible to the user, are usually a mechanical disaster, but this slotting arrangement looks like it might actually be robust.
Not exactly like those in the scope, but also very robust, if not better (hold the board on both sides): http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/amphenol-rf-division/034-5013/ARF2104-ND/3995564 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/amphenol-rf-division/034-5013/ARF2104-ND/3995564)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 10:18:58 pm

Only thing that bothers me is the release. It seems obvious that R&S had some sort of issue close to release. They didn't get scopes in the hands of a few reviewers on-time, and it seems that they didn't have any production units actually ready to go (i've still seen/heard no actual production scopes in anyone's hands... btw Mike, is yours beta firmware too like the many other screen shots I've seen?), even though their marketing materials said they did.  I do understand, though, they "had" to get to market this month, because of all the other competition.  And as much as I "want it right now", if they did find an issue that they can fix and make it better before its in my hands, awesome (as long as we're not talking months from now).

Reading between the lines of my communications with them, there was at least a significant logistics screwup in terms of where the first units went, and that units went to dealers before reviewers, though these may have just been demo units rather than for sale.  It may also be that units were diverted to potential big customers.

The unit I have looks in every respect like a full production unit. I have found a few minor bugs in the firmware but nothing that's a problem or would be difficult fixes.

I think we will see promotions on options, as everyone else is doing it. It may also be the case that dealers can throw in options to clinch a sale.
My R&S UK rep said they do promotions every 6 months.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: trevwhite on March 23, 2017, 10:26:33 pm
Seems Farnell UK are now offering a "deal". They offered me the promo bundle for £3175+VAT. Not quite the same bargain the US got. I wont be buying it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 23, 2017, 10:28:30 pm
In deed. in these days of the global market.. the old techniques just dont' cut it any longer. I'm NOT goign to pay a 50% premium just becuase i am in New Zealand. End of story.

And if you set the price with a promostion you better be ready to sell it again at that price, cause you've just set the expectation. and you know whwat.. I have plenty of choices now of what i'll buy..  theres plenty of good scopes that will do the job for me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 10:40:41 pm
Seems Farnell UK are now offering a "deal". They offered me the promo bundle for £3175+VAT. Not quite the same bargain the US got. I wont be buying it.
Friend of mine just received the same offer. Nowhere near the US deal, but as the latter appears to have finished, still not a bad deal.
I'm told they have about 12 units available.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 23, 2017, 11:11:33 pm
Hi Mike  Thank you for all the work you are doing with the RTB2004, for me it is revealing and seems for the most part to support the marketing claims of R&S.

Have you looked at the triggers yet?  There was some debate on the forum regarding this capability and in particular the runt trigger.  In the data sheet it states that we can search for a runt but no mention of triggering on one. 

Just curious, it would be disappointing if there is no runt trigger.

Title: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Asymmetric13 on March 23, 2017, 11:13:56 pm
You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
If you can live with 200MHz there is an alternative for the same price and available worldwide. Some pros and cons ofcourse but all in all pretty much in the same ballpark.
Are you referring to the GW Instek MSO 2204 EA ?

I think it would be (very?) interesting to conduct a comparison between the two models - clearly there are headline differences (300MHz / 200 MHz, 10" Screen / 8" Screen, 10 Bit ADC / 8 Bit ADC) beyond those items if the specifications and performance are considerably closer (equivalent?), the remaining variable is price and the "standard" cost for the GW Instek ("fully loaded specification and options") is equivalent to the "promotional" (and now sold out) pricing for this R&S ("fully loaded specification and options").

My assumption is that most of the interest generated here was not due to the device being a new model from R&S, but rather being a great specification (without hacking) for the price. This is the rationale for why I think such a comparison may be of interest - particularly to all those who are not able to consider the full purchase price of the (non-discounted) R&S.

I wonder how we might go about getting GW Instek to provide a review scope to Dave, Mike and any others in a position to conduct the necessary blow-by-blow to answer the above comparison queries.

@nctnico - has your communication with GW Instek regarding firmware updates in the past left you with a contact path that may be able to facilitate this?

EEV Forum Thread:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-announces-new-mso-2000/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-announces-new-mso-2000/)

T Equipment Product Page:

http://www.tequipment.net/Instek/MSO-2202EA/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=true (http://www.tequipment.net/Instek/MSO-2202EA/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=true)

Details of (additional - i.e. not required to be price equivalent as described above) Educational Discount:

http://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/Page/ECEDHA_Education_Promotion (http://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/Page/ECEDHA_Education_Promotion)

__________

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with any manufacturer, just eager in understanding the landscape.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: krzychb on March 23, 2017, 11:15:20 pm
Seems Farnell UK are now offering a "deal". They offered me the promo bundle for £3175+VAT. Not quite the same bargain the US got. I wont be buying it.
Friend of mine just received the same offer. Nowhere near the US deal, but as the latter appears to have finished, still not a bad deal.
I'm told they have about 12 units available.
I got similar offer from another vendor for 3,595 Euro + VAT. But the lead time was 3 - 8 weeks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: lukier on March 23, 2017, 11:16:59 pm
In deed. in these days of the global market.. the old techniques just dont' cut it any longer. I'm NOT goign to pay a 50% premium just becuase i am in New Zealand. End of story.

And if you set the price with a promostion you better be ready to sell it again at that price, cause you've just set the expectation. and you know whwat.. I have plenty of choices now of what i'll buy..  theres plenty of good scopes that will do the job for me.

Yeah, I don't get why everyone here is so excited about the $2k deal. It is a publicity stunt, 200 units, only through one US distributor (big middle finger to R&S domestic = EU market and other countries). And no way to plan and make purchasing decisions.

But to be fair even the MSRP price (e.g. Farnell UK for RTB2004/RTB-B243/RTB-B1 = 3785 GBP + VAT) is still pretty good compared to the prices of comparable scopes in the same store (e.g. Keysight MSOX3034T 350 MHz  4+16 = 7295 GBP + VAT), and I guess both manufacturers will do promos on option bundles.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on March 24, 2017, 01:02:35 am
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
· Almost any reviewer showed that they needed several trys until they could move a waveform on the screen (if more than one was shown).
· It also was often visible that a press on a button (touch = on the screen) often did not work and needed a 2nd or 3rd try.
· The screen is glossy. In my case such a scope is always located above my eyes - I would see reflections all the time.
· Immediately the screen is full of smear and fingerprints

I am sure this is not a bad scope. It shows some nice ideas and I am glad it is there, as: the more competitors, the better the products and the lower the price after some time.

Now, if somebody finds out how to hack the economy 70 Mhz version (still 1900 Euro + VAT) to a fully optioned 300 Mhz version, then this will be a nice deal for many people (though still not for the Rigol DS1074Z buyers who are on a 500 Euro budget).


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 24, 2017, 01:24:08 am
Just curious, it would be disappointing if there is no runt trigger.

Without wishing to derail the thread (too much), I'm curious as to how often practically speaking these days you would actually use a runt trigger?

Back in the days of shared parallel busses, had I had a scope with runt trigger capability that would certainly have been of use, but nowadays, not so much unless you're into DDR, although I'm not sure how much use a 300MHz scope is for DDR nowadays!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 24, 2017, 01:34:40 am
Just curious, it would be disappointing if there is no runt trigger.

Without wishing to derail the thread (too much), I'm curious as to how often practically speaking these days you would actually use a runt trigger?

Back in the days of shared parallel busses, had I had a scope with runt trigger capability that would certainly have been of use, but nowadays, not so much unless you're into DDR, although I'm not sure how much use a 300MHz scope is for DDR nowadays!

Most often on analog decodes with serial busses where there are random infrequent problems with the connection. These just show up as false lows on the digital side.  Like anything else, it is a tool and has its uses and infrequent use does not invalidate its need.   

I find it odd that it is important enough to search on, but not trigger.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 24, 2017, 02:49:34 am
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series.

Hm.. Keysight 3000 series is actually an 8bit scope and the RTB2000 series is a 10bit scope. literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/75019-97073.pdf p.173 explains, that the Keysight DSOX3000 is limited to 5usec/div for 10Bit vertical resolution in High Resolution Mode. 

In general boxcar reduces samplerate by a factor 4 per 1 bit less quantization noise.

But actually for a good comparison of vertical resolution for both devices we need the ENOB. Does anybody know that?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 24, 2017, 05:16:33 am
Found some serial boot text. Nothing exciting. appears about half a sec after powerup.

Code: [Select]
U-Boot SPL 2013.01.01 (Oct 06 2016 - 16:39:22)
BOARD : Altera SOCFPGA Cyclone V Board
CLOCK: EOSC1 clock 50000 KHz
CLOCK: EOSC2 clock 50000 KHz
CLOCK: F2S_SDR_REF clock 0 KHz
CLOCK: F2S_PER_REF clock 0 KHz
CLOCK: MPU clock 925 MHz
CLOCK: DDR clock 400 MHz
CLOCK: UART clock 100000 KHz
CLOCK: MMC clock 62500 KHz
CLOCK: QSPI clock 3613 KHz
RESET: WARM
SDRAM: Initializing MMR registers
SDRAM: Calibrating PHY
SEQ.C: Preparing to start memory calibration
SEQ.C: CALIBRATION PASSED
SDRAM: 512 MiB
NAND:  Denali NAND controller
[/quote]
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Lukas on March 24, 2017, 06:16:12 am
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: cubsfan on March 24, 2017, 06:35:24 am
Found this on Newark's site, so I called.  They have a bunch on backorder.

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=RTB2k-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=RTB2k-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 24, 2017, 06:36:52 am
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.

I actually wonder if that was intended, and if not if it could be fixed. The touchscreen stopped updates, ethernet they slowed, knobs looked normal. Seems odd but may be a limitation with the way they're using the FPGA based SOC.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 24, 2017, 06:39:14 am
Well, I haven't seen enough to get an impression of the responsiveness. Most of that pinch zoom etc "look mom it's a smart phone" that Watt Circuit did was pretty useless anyway.

Most of the time when I used a touch screen scope I use the touch for direct entry on numbers, quick menu access or maybe drag the cursors (zone trigger is actually nice). Most of the time you happen to do something you didn't want to do, like drag a waveform and change the horizontal delay by accident.

Sure the Keysight is fast. But even there it isn't exactly smooth to use fingers to move a trace. Would typically still use a knob to change horizontal or direct entry to adjust offset anyway.

I'm still hoping that Dave comes with a review as well, he and Mike are really good at doing different things with the scope and present it in a really useful way unlike many other review that were more unboxing and repeating the banner advertisement.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 24, 2017, 06:44:26 am
Found this on Newark's site, so I called.  They have a bunch on backorder.

That does look like a possible second chance coming up for the folks who missed out on this round! Makes sense, Newark wouldn't want to be eclipsed by the other 2 US distributors.

Maybe that explains the 5 week lead time on the more recent orders.  Some stock on hand went to Newark when they decided they wanted to play.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 24, 2017, 07:50:07 am
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.

Hm .. difficult to estimate the responsiveness from videos. As well as to estimate if a device is too loud or annoying due to its long boot time which is the downside of higher mcu-power.

But Mike already has a device for testing. He worte: "UI more sluggish than Keysight, but don't think too annoying - time will tell."

As I understand that: No showstopper for Mike. But because responsiveness of course is also an subjective issue we all probabely expect Dave' review too :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 24, 2017, 07:54:54 am
Impression so far re. UI responsiveness - in many respects it is slower than the Keysight,  but if I wasn't used to that scope, I don't think I'd find it too annoying. The more important stuff like sliding waveforms is pretty good - pinch gestures and other things that cause mode changes are a little slower.
Nothing seems to get slower depending on acquisition memory size - I've not figured out exactly how "auto" memory size behaves, but a full-memory acquisition with serial decode, and touch-scrolling along the zoomed view  doesn't seem to be any problem at all.
Menus etc. could be a little more snappy, but you're never consciously waiting for anything to happen 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 24, 2017, 08:17:57 am
Protocol & bus decode, and a few minor bugs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTsbYqhZiSg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTsbYqhZiSg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 24, 2017, 09:32:33 am
Thanks Mike,

I wonder if R&S will pay a bug finder fee per bug - then you are in for a good monthly salary :) - not that any of the bugs was really serious. Which firmware version is yours?

but thanks again
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElectronMan on March 24, 2017, 11:31:25 am
Thanks Mike,

I wonder if R&S will pay a bug finder fee per bug - then you are in for a good monthly salary :) - not that any of the bugs was really serious. Which firmware version is yours?

but thanks again

Assuming that is how it works. I know that when I am working with any piece of hardware/software, I don't find bugs.... bugs find me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Lukas on March 24, 2017, 12:19:55 pm
People seem to forget that adding a capacitive touch screen to their products evokes a slew of expectations from potential users. When operating a device with a touch screen I expect it to behave as responsive as a tablet - heck, even really cheap tablets manage to do non-skippy scrolling. Since a touch screen provides no haptic feedback, some instant feedback when touching something on screen is of great importance. By instant I really mean instant - the very moment the finger hits the screen. Shouldn't be that hard...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 24, 2017, 12:39:44 pm
People seem to forget that adding a capacitive touch screen to their products evokes a slew of expectations from potential users. When operating a device with a touch screen I expect it to behave as responsive as a tablet - heck, even really cheap tablets manage to do non-skippy scrolling. Since a touch screen provides no haptic feedback, some instant feedback when touching something on screen is of great importance. By instant I really mean instant - the very moment the finger hits the screen. Shouldn't be that hard...

I'm not so sure. Even my Galaxy 6 isn't instant. Obviously everything has latency but it's about how much. Mikes video makes it look plenty responsive but if your requirement is that it's imperceivable then you definitely don't want it. Even the keysight videos of the 4000x scopes don't look instant, also not 100% error-proof either. Never used either scope though so just going off videos.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Lukas on March 24, 2017, 12:55:12 pm
Sure, my dated Galaxy Nexus isn't instant as well, but when I touch a menu item, I usually get instant feedback that I touched it and scrolling doesn't lag. I've played with the RTB2000 and some of the keysight scopes at embedded world and the keysight scopes were way more smooth to operate.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 24, 2017, 01:01:46 pm
I am basically unhappy with 8 bit DSOs. I don't like too much noise in my measurement device when I want to see how much noise my circuit has.

Therefore I consider the RTB2000 as a milestone. I hope that we see further improvements in this direction also from other vendors.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 24, 2017, 01:13:09 pm
Sure, my dated Galaxy Nexus isn't instant as well, but when I touch a menu item, I usually get instant feedback that I touched it and scrolling doesn't lag. I've played with the RTB2000 and some of the keysight scopes at embedded world and the keysight scopes were way more smooth to operate.

Yea, keysight seems to be more or less the gold standard for scope interfacing right now. Responsive, clean, and smooth. However, the price matches and you don't always get higher measurable specs for the money. From what I've seen though they stick to 10 divs horizontal and even the 4000x series scope still have an 800x600 resolution screen. Like anything scopes have alot of give and take and you're usually best off waiting as long as you can because things just get better.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: technogeeky on March 24, 2017, 02:07:52 pm
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
· Almost any reviewer showed that they needed several trys until they could move a waveform on the screen (if more than one was shown).
· It also was often visible that a press on a button (touch = on the screen) often did not work and needed a 2nd or 3rd try.
· The screen is glossy. In my case such a scope is always located above my eyes - I would see reflections all the time.
· Immediately the screen is full of smear and fingerprints

I am sure this is not a bad scope. It shows some nice ideas and I am glad it is there, as: the more competitors, the better the products and the lower the price after some time.

Now, if somebody finds out how to hack the economy 70 Mhz version (still 1900 Euro + VAT) to a fully optioned 300 Mhz version, then this will be a nice deal for many people (though still not for the Rigol DS1074Z buyers who are on a 500 Euro budget).

I just watched the whole 50 freakin' minutes of mike's video on R&S serial decoding. While the touchscreen-waveform control portions might be a bit laggy, the overall performance seems excellent to me. The features are excellent. The UI is incredible; it's very smart and versatile.

The shiny screen thing I suppose is a problem if your preference disagrees with this configuration. I do know that some of the matte UV protective and glare-free options have problems with chemicals e.g. acetone, but I suspect this is probably just a price decision.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 24, 2017, 02:40:52 pm
Watched Mike's serial decode vid. At the $2080.00 promo pricing for US/Canada(which is over) the scope seems like a bargain, at retail price it doesn't do too much for me. I do like how much thought has been put into using the LCD resolution.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElectronMan on March 24, 2017, 03:19:06 pm
Watched Mike's serial decode vid. At the $2080.00 promo pricing for US/Canada(which is over) the scope seems like a bargain, at retail price it doesn't do too much for me. I do like how much thought has been put into using the LCD resolution.

I was thinking the same thing until I remembered that the serial decode options I was salivating over don't come with it at that price.

I do like the R&S serial decode a lot more than that on my Keysight scope though. Especially with the higher resolution and clever resizing of the decoded data.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 24, 2017, 03:22:59 pm
Mike, huuuuge thanks for your tireless work getting these videos filmed, edited, and posted! I've been in the market for a first scope for about a year. I feel very fortunate to have been paying attention when this one came out with such an aggressive offer which seemed uncharacteristic of a top brand. It stretched my budget for sure but I jumped on it and am eagerly awaiting delivery (it's gonna be a long month). In the meantime I'm starving for deep content on real world use. Can't wait for the next vid!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 24, 2017, 06:08:55 pm
I´ve seen both scopes on the Embedded World. And thats a kind of personal preference. I didn´t like the capability to touch the channel position or trigger marker on the KS3000&4000. With normal hands, hope i got some, it is already difficult to grab them at the left side of the display. So the way to splitt that to both sides of the display and positioning the channel inside the window in addition, like R&S is doing, is a much better opportunity.

The other responsiveness equals the same on a key menu or numeric input.
All in all both are pretty equal on the UI.

But R&S is more courageous in trying to give some new opportunities in how to handle devices.
Especially the resizable windows are awesome when used on the serial dcode or FFT, instead of painful permanently navigating the menus to switch table on/off.
This are things i´ve been missing on other vendors the last years. And this is not only a matter of KS.

So time will tell if there are things that pushes through.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 24, 2017, 09:43:27 pm


Looks like at least Farnell Germany might have the app bundle available soon?
http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

Thank's! That looks good. But it's a software only bundle. Better than nothing.
Two days ago I asked R&S about the early adopter bundle for Europe and they are moving the question to some sales office...

The complete bundle (RTB2004 OSCILLOSCOPE 4 CHANNEL, 300MHz PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE) is for 5500,- Euro + VAT. Compare that to $ 2080+VAT in the US?  >:(

http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

And now the "rtb2k-com4-launch-edition" at de.farnell is gone even before there was a unit available :palm: ... Let's hope it come back with a similar price point to the US offers.   :=\
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Gabri74 on March 24, 2017, 10:31:15 pm
Starting today they are listed by Elpav (Italian distributor):

http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm (http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm)


RTB2002 (70MHz 2Ch)            euro 1.250,00
RTBM2004 (70MHz 4Ch)            euro 1.900,00
RTB-221 (up 100MHz 2Ch)    euro 275,00
RTB-222 (up 200MHz 2Ch)    euro 895,00
RTB-223 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.700,00
RTB-241 (up 100MHz 4Ch)    euro 225,00
RTB-242 (up 200MHz 4Ch)    euro 745,00
RTB-243 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.750,00
RTB-B1 (up to MSO)                    euro 700,00
RTB-B6 (gen. arb. 25MHz)    euro 700,00

No mention of decode options cost  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 24, 2017, 11:53:02 pm
To: Mike

I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper.  Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.

From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands

SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF

I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^

Cheers and thanks again for all your work.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 25, 2017, 12:37:17 am
To: Mike

I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper.  Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.

From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands

SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF

I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^


This does work, and it is persistent across power cycles, However it's extremely quiet - if you have something next to it with a more noisy fan you can barely hear it. On the plus side you can leave it on and it won't be annoying

Haven't seen it in any menus, and don't think there is a way to enter SCPI on the scope - you can do it via the web interface.

Incidentally I just noticed that interfacing is via USB OR Ethernet, but can't have both enabled at the same time, and it's not smart enough to auto-swap to ethernet if USB is not plugged in.

I did a port scan and looks like HTTP is the only service on Ethernet.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: salviador on March 25, 2017, 12:52:07 am
Starting today they are listed by Elpav (Italian distributor):

http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm (http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm)


RTB2002 (70MHz 2Ch)            euro 1.250,00
RTBM2004 (70MHz 4Ch)            euro 1.900,00
RTB-221 (up 100MHz 2Ch)    euro 275,00
RTB-222 (up 200MHz 2Ch)    euro 895,00
RTB-223 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.700,00
RTB-241 (up 100MHz 4Ch)    euro 225,00
RTB-242 (up 200MHz 4Ch)    euro 745,00
RTB-243 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.750,00
RTB-B1 (up to MSO)                    euro 700,00
RTB-B6 (gen. arb. 25MHz)    euro 700,00

No mention of decode options cost  :-//

Grazie Grabi!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 25, 2017, 12:56:26 am
To: Mike

I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper.  Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.

From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands

SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF

I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^


This does work, and it is persistent across power cycles, However it's extremely quiet - if you have something next to it with a more noisy fan you can barely hear it. On the plus side you can leave it on and it won't be annoying

Haven't seen it in any menus, and don't think there is a way to enter SCPI on the scope - you can do it via the web interface.

Incidentally I just noticed that interfacing is via USB OR Ethernet, but can't have both enabled at the same time, and it's not smart enough to auto-swap to ethernet if USB is not plugged in.

I did a port scan and looks like HTTP is the only service on Ethernet.

 :-DD Just wait, some dude will come out with a "hack" that puts a whacking great buzzer on it! (won't be me!) :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 25, 2017, 01:05:23 am
To: Mike

I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper.  Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.

From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands

SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF

I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^


This does work, and it is persistent across power cycles, However it's extremely quiet - if you have something next to it with a more noisy fan you can barely hear it. On the plus side you can leave it on and it won't be annoying

Haven't seen it in any menus, and don't think there is a way to enter SCPI on the scope - you can do it via the web interface.

Incidentally I just noticed that interfacing is via USB OR Ethernet, but can't have both enabled at the same time, and it's not smart enough to auto-swap to ethernet if USB is not plugged in.

I did a port scan and looks like HTTP is the only service on Ethernet.

Nice ... if the beeper is still available. The HMO & RTB series do support a kind of open setup file format which is called  SCP (from SCPI).
This is a simple text file which can be loaded as device setup, e.g.

CHAN1:STAT ON
CHAN2:STAT ON
CHAN1:SCAL 0.5
CHAN2:SCAL 0.5

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 25, 2017, 01:27:18 am
To: Mike

I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper.  Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.

From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands

SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF

I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^


This does work, and it is persistent across power cycles, However it's extremely quiet - if you have something next to it with a more noisy fan you can barely hear it. On the plus side you can leave it on and it won't be annoying

Haven't seen it in any menus, and don't think there is a way to enter SCPI on the scope - you can do it via the web interface.

Incidentally I just noticed that interfacing is via USB OR Ethernet, but can't have both enabled at the same time, and it's not smart enough to auto-swap to ethernet if USB is not plugged in.

I did a port scan and looks like HTTP is the only service on Ethernet.

 :-DD Just wait, some dude will come out with a "hack" that puts a whacking great buzzer on it! (won't be me!) :palm:

... :-DD  no need for a "hack" just use the arb gen or the trigger out pulse ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 25, 2017, 03:01:05 am
Starting today they are listed by Elpav (Italian distributor):
http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm (http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm)

RTB2002 (70MHz 2Ch)            euro 1.250,00
RTBM2004 (70MHz 4Ch)            euro 1.900,00
RTB-221 (up 100MHz 2Ch)    euro 275,00
RTB-222 (up 200MHz 2Ch)    euro 895,00
RTB-223 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.700,00
RTB-241 (up 100MHz 4Ch)    euro 225,00
RTB-242 (up 200MHz 4Ch)    euro 745,00
RTB-243 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.750,00
RTB-B1 (up to MSO)                    euro 700,00
RTB-B6 (gen. arb. 25MHz)    euro 700,00

Why would the 4-channel upgrades to 100 or 200 MHz be less expensive than the corresponding 2-channel upgrades?? 

Or do I have to buy them both, e.g. RTB-222 to upgrade the first 2 channels to 200 MHz, plus RTB-242 to upgrade the other two channels?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 25, 2017, 03:08:11 am

Why would the 4-channel upgrades to 100 or 200 MHz be less expensive than the corresponding 2-channel upgrades?? 

Or do I have to buy them both, e.g. RTB-222 to upgrade the first 2 channels to 200 MHz, plus RTB-242 to upgrade the other two channels?

That does seem silly.
In the US market, looks like the
100MHz Upgrade is $305 for 2, $250 for 4   ... eh? ....
200MHz upgrade is $790 for 2, $815 for 4. 
300MHz upgrade is $1860 for 2, $1915 for 4 ...

Saa..... that is pretty weird.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Lukas on March 25, 2017, 04:25:50 am
Don't get me wrong, the RTB2000 are perfectly usable scopes, but lack the fun of using the Agilent/Keysight infiniivision scopes. On the dated MSO5000/6000 series, turning the dedicated intensity knob brought up a vu-meter style popup indicating the intensity level. One may believe that the needle and the knob are linked with gears, there's zero lag. The same goes for the timebase knob: Spinning the timebase knob makes you forget that you're operating a DSO, it's as fast as with a good old analog 'scope. Perhaps I'm kinda spoiled, but that's what I expect from DSOs these days. Agilent managed to do it with a PowerPC CPU and an ASIC 10 years ago, so it shouldn't be rocket science today...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 25, 2017, 04:45:34 am
Don't get me wrong, the RTB2000 are perfectly usable scopes, but lack the fun of using the Agilent/Keysight infiniivision scopes. On the dated MSO5000/6000 series, turning the dedicated intensity knob brought up a vu-meter style popup indicating the intensity level. One may believe that the needle and the knob are linked with gears, there's zero lag. The same goes for the timebase knob: Spinning the timebase knob makes you forget that you're operating a DSO, it's as fast as with a good old analog 'scope. Perhaps I'm kinda spoiled, but that's what I expect from DSOs these days. Agilent managed to do it with a PowerPC CPU and an ASIC 10 years ago, so it shouldn't be rocket science today...

I still use my Agilent 54622D scope a lot more than my Rigol MSO2702A.  It boots very fast.  It can trigger CAN, LIN, SPI, i2c, pattern... even USB on CH1, CH2 and any of the 16 digital channels.  It lacks color and serial DECODE, but for a 15 year old scope, it is amazing.  And as Lukas says, the vu-meter intensity indicator works very well.  You can buy used units on eBay for around $250-$300 and they are usually in a good shape.  Digital probe cable is missing on most of these items, but you can get replacements also on eBay for little money.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 25, 2017, 04:52:21 am
Starting today they are listed by Elpav (Italian distributor):

http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm (http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm)


RTB2002 (70MHz 2Ch)            euro 1.250,00
RTBM2004 (70MHz 4Ch)            euro 1.900,00
RTB-221 (up 100MHz 2Ch)    euro 275,00
RTB-222 (up 200MHz 2Ch)    euro 895,00
RTB-223 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.700,00
RTB-241 (up 100MHz 4Ch)    euro 225,00
RTB-242 (up 200MHz 4Ch)    euro 745,00
RTB-243 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.750,00
RTB-B1 (up to MSO)                    euro 700,00
RTB-B6 (gen. arb. 25MHz)    euro 700,00

No mention of decode options cost  :-//

These are nearly copies from http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com (http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com)

The decode options are:
RTB-K1 (I2C/SPI)                   euro 480,-
RTB-K2 (UART/RS232)            euro 480,-
RTB-K3 (CAN/LIN)                  euro 480,-
RTB-K15 (seg.mem & hist.)     euro 700,-

Farnell have/had been some packages:
RTB-PK1 (? ? ? ???)                             euro 1172,-
RTB-COM4 (RTB2004+B243+B1+PK1)  euro 5500,- (It's now gone.  ???)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 25, 2017, 05:13:28 am
Don't get me wrong, the RTB2000 are perfectly usable scopes, but lack the fun of using the Agilent/Keysight infiniivision scopes. On the dated MSO5000/6000 series, turning the dedicated intensity knob brought up a vu-meter style popup indicating the intensity level. One may believe that the needle and the knob are linked with gears, there's zero lag. The same goes for the timebase knob: Spinning the timebase knob makes you forget that you're operating a DSO, it's as fast as with a good old analog 'scope. Perhaps I'm kinda spoiled, but that's what I expect from DSOs these days. Agilent managed to do it with a PowerPC CPU and an ASIC 10 years ago, so it shouldn't be rocket science today...

I still use my Agilent 54622D scope a lot more than my Rigol MSO2702A.  It boots very fast.  It can trigger CAN, LIN, SPI, i2c, pattern... even USB on CH1, CH2 and any of the 16 digital channels.  It lacks color and serial DECODE, but for a 15 year old scope, it is amazing.  And as Lukas says, the vu-meter intensity indicator works very well.  You can buy used units on eBay for around $250-$300 and they are usually in a good shape.  Digital probe cable is missing on most of these items, but you can get replacements also on eBay for little money.

I think I go for HMO1212 or Rigol DS4014E (all options free until June 30th) or DSOX1102G if I win one this month ;). The RTB with the needed options is out of my personal range.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zebble on March 25, 2017, 05:15:28 am
Ordered from the Canadian site, and the order went through!  Only to get an email today from Newark that the order has been cancelled due to "export restrictions".

Fail #2.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 25, 2017, 05:36:05 am
Ordered from the Canadian site, and the order went through!  Only to get an email today from Newark that the order has been cancelled due to "export restrictions".

Fail #2.

Oh man that sux ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Gabri74 on March 25, 2017, 05:36:17 am
You can buy used units on eBay for around $250-$300 and they are usually in a good shape.  Digital probe cable is missing on most of these items, but you can get replacements also on eBay for little money.

Yeeahhh... not in my country  :'(
Buying used equipment outside USA at honest prices seems almost impossible
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 26, 2017, 12:41:06 am
To: Mikeselecticstuff

Would it be possible for you to try setting up the decode to capture very long frame delayed captures?  One (1) protocol packet every x seconds. 0<x<7200+ for example.

I understand the method would be:
1) Select the sample size of the record in memory.  (10k Sa, 13k of them) for instance
2) Set trigger (Frame start)
3) Not sure how you do the next part, to ensure just one capture in a single record
4) Review the records in history

The idea is there could be minutes between each frame / record.  Yet we could look at them contiguously in history, and even save that history to a file.

I trust this is not a bother, and thanks in advance.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 26, 2017, 01:20:24 am
 That should be doable with segmented memory. I've not explored that yet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 26, 2017, 03:18:40 am
3) Not sure how you do the next part, to ensure just one capture in a single record
Trigger Mode: NORMAL
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 26, 2017, 04:20:01 am
3) Not sure how you do the next part, to ensure just one capture in a single record
Trigger Mode: NORMAL
That only gives you the last record. You need segmented to capture multiple records
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 26, 2017, 08:48:32 am
3) Not sure how you do the next part, to ensure just one capture in a single record
Trigger Mode: NORMAL
That only gives you the last record. You need segmented to capture multiple records
Sorry, I was answering only question #3. 

You need segmented + Trigger Mode in NORMAL.  I don't have the RTB2000 but I tested on the Keysight 1000X series and you can capture up to 50 segments using any delay between one segment to the next.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 26, 2017, 04:08:28 pm
WOW - R&S still hasn't sent a review scope to Dave after all this time?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrBungle on March 26, 2017, 06:14:41 pm
Dave still hasn't reviewed scopes he does have  ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 27, 2017, 04:03:28 am
I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did. :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on March 27, 2017, 05:45:52 am
Dave's seemed distant for a while. Very inactive relative to his normal self. Sounds like he was busy with a hiccup of his probe and maybe YouTube channel.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: SeanB on March 27, 2017, 05:50:30 am
One Dave, 2 children, one Dave2 to mentor and generally juggling, so yes likely as busy as a bee for sure.  Don't mind that at all, after all it is his own priorities he works on, and they generally do coincide with those of a lot of people here as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 05:51:52 am
I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did. :)
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 27, 2017, 06:01:55 am
I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did. :)
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
No attenuator at hand? I create low level signals using an attenuator. The noise gets attenuated as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 07:10:26 am
I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did. :)
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
No attenuator at hand? I create low level signals using an attenuator. The noise gets attenuated as well.
Yes but only if it's shielded
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 27, 2017, 09:02:48 am
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.

If you have a 24 bit sound card in a PC the (free) ARTA audio testing software will do the job:

http://www.artalabs.hr/ (http://www.artalabs.hr/)

You will loose bits as the PC volume slider is decreased, but still will probably be above the 16 bits of the high-res scope mode.  If it won't go that low before cutoff with the PC slider a resistive divider would be OK, just stay above 5K or so total to keep from loading whatever the sound card is using for an output chip.  I know that is a lot of set-up stuff though and probably not on the schedule any time soon.  :)  I'll do the test when I eventually get my RTB2004's, in May now they say.   I have a ultra-low THD 1KHz audio oscillator, the oscillator in a Keithley 2015, and the oscillator in a QuantAsylum QA401 audio analyzer (which is essentially a 24 bit sound card in a box).

BTW, in case folks don't remember from previous posts, this is ci11's request from back in post 450.  He and I are audio guys, so the ability of that HMO1212 in high res mode to trigger and display the 20Hz 400uV waveform is pretty good stuff.  :)   The theory here is that the RTB 2004 should be able to do at least as well, probably better, since it seems to have HAMEG DNA, lol.

Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV.  It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 27, 2017, 09:20:45 am
20Hz @ 400 uV tortures a Keysight DSOX3000 series - in high res mode it will display it, trigger is hit/miss and measurements such as the frequency counter won't work. Of course the 1mV per division is zoomed and it is 8 bit. I used a 33250A with a 30dB attenuator to generate the signal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 27, 2017, 09:26:57 am
In most (if not all) audio chips the volume slider works in the analog domain in order not to loose bits. Ofcourse at low volumes the least significant bits will be swamped by noise. Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 27, 2017, 09:46:48 am
Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.

According to the screenshot in post 450, where ci11 put out the challenge originally, it should be 400uV p-p. It seems that limiting the bandwidth (to 20 MHz, I assume) is allowed.

I forget -- which scope do you use as your "daily driver"?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 27, 2017, 10:56:51 am
Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.
According to the screenshot in post 450, where ci11 put out the challenge originally, it should be 400uV p-p. It seems that limiting the bandwidth (to 20 MHz, I assume) is allowed.
I forget -- which scope do you use as your "daily driver"?
Currently a GDS2204E but that bottoms out at 650uVpp (233uV RMS).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 11:13:16 am
I have two units, one to giveaway!

BTW, I'm told that the launch deal on this scope is limited to 300 scopes in each market segment (US, Asia, Europe), so you'd better get in quick before the universities scoop them up.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C74i2QZVUAAWuSz.jpg:large)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 11:19:15 am
Dave still hasn't reviewed scopes he does have  ;D

Reviewing scopes properly takes several days solid work at least. I rarely get that sort of break, or can find time to commit to that at the moment.
And yes I have a wife and two kids (one school age, & one of which I take care of 1 full work day a week), a business to run, a new logistics employee to train, two new products in progress, and it's not like I can do lab stuff or shoot video at home when the wife is sleeping. Not to mention other videos I want to do.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 11:21:00 am
Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.
According to the screenshot in post 450, where ci11 put out the challenge originally, it should be 400uV p-p. It seems that limiting the bandwidth (to 20 MHz, I assume) is allowed.

If you are comparing noise on scopes then the only way to compare apples to apples is by using the 20MHz BW limit.
Indeed, it's a defacto industry standard bandwidth for PSU noise and other noise measurements.
That might make an interesting video on it's own.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 27, 2017, 11:39:44 am
I have two units, one to giveaway!

BTW, I'm told that the launch deal on this scope is limited to 300 scopes in each market segment (US, Asia, Europe), so you'd better get in quick before the universities scoop them up.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C74i2QZVUAAWuSz.jpg:large)

Do they have the special deal going on in Australia  ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 27, 2017, 12:07:38 pm
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.

If you have a 24 bit sound card in a PC the (free) ARTA audio testing software will do the job:

http://www.artalabs.hr/ (http://www.artalabs.hr/)

You will loose bits as the PC volume slider is decreased, but still will probably be above the 16 bits of the high-res scope mode.  If it won't go that low before cutoff with the PC slider a resistive divider would be OK, just stay above 5K or so total to keep from loading whatever the sound card is using for an output chip.  I know that is a lot of set-up stuff though and probably not on the schedule any time soon.  :)  I'll do the test when I eventually get my RTB2004's, in May now they say.   I have a ultra-low THD 1KHz audio oscillator, the oscillator in a Keithley 2015, and the oscillator in a QuantAsylum QA401 audio analyzer (which is essentially a 24 bit sound card in a box).

BTW, in case folks don't remember from previous posts, this is ci11's request from back in post 450.  He and I are audio guys, so the ability of that HMO1212 in high res mode to trigger and display the 20Hz 400uV waveform is pretty good stuff.  :)   The theory here is that the RTB 2004 should be able to do at least as well, probably better, since it seems to have HAMEG DNA, lol.

Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV.  It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.

Thanks for the BTT, agdr!

The plot in Post 450 showed a 20Hz 200µVrms signal being triggered by a HMO1212. The scope was set at 1mV/DIV with a 50ms TB, in Hi-Res mode, AC coupling and yes, Dave, the 20MHz BWL is on as can be seen on the right side of the screen. The test was kindly done by an HMO1212 owner who is still very happy with his purchase. R&S has a ton of analog magic and if they sprinkled some of that goodness in the RTB, it would not only make a nice quiet scope, but one of the few that makes it great for audio.

As agdr says, Rich can do the test easily if he has access to a UPV with the Low Distortion Generator B1 Option installed. Or he can send me a RTB and I would gladly test it...with the 20Hz 200µVrms or even lower level signals. 200µVrms is just a shade over -74dBV which is quite relevant in audio. Attached is a FFT of a 20Hz 500µVrms signal generated from the UPV, such a signal is not going to get lost in the noise floor any time soon with harmonics at and below -147dBV.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 12:13:49 pm
Do they have the special deal going on in Australia  ?

Yes, talk to them.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 27, 2017, 12:23:02 pm
Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 12:31:35 pm
Dave,
Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

No, you always pay the "Australia tax" of course.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 27, 2017, 12:47:00 pm
Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 27, 2017, 12:50:17 pm
Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

I doubt Dave speaks for them - why not talk to them as he suggested?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 27, 2017, 12:54:05 pm


Trust me there is method in approach, and let Dave speak for himself.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 27, 2017, 12:58:19 pm
Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

Also by Australia tax I don't think he meant actual tax. Just like England, you can't use a 1:1 exchange rate and figure out what something costs there as compared to America. After all, America is the home of the "I want it" free.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 01:10:15 pm
Dave,
Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.
Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

Why do I have to answer the same question twice?
US price is almost never indicative of the price you pay in Australia for something, not just this scope, but almost every product you can think of.
Australian companies have to pay import duty, local custom and port handling fees etc, and you'll cop GST on top as well.
Try importing something into Oz to resell and you'll find out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 01:14:39 pm
FYI:
These are the fees I pay to get my multimeters into the country:
(http://i.imgur.com/66HnKMg.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/Y2hAG0S.png)

And people expect Oz seller to sell at the same price as other countries?  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: usagi on March 27, 2017, 01:26:32 pm
what's the better value for money, a lol'd DS1054Z, or an RTB2004?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 27, 2017, 01:31:22 pm
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.

Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV.  It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.
Unfortunately, I don't have a UPV (or any source/attenuator that can make that signal). I'll see if someone in Munich can do it though.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 27, 2017, 02:14:46 pm
FYI:
These are the fees I pay to get my multimeters into the country:
(http://i.imgur.com/66HnKMg.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/Y2hAG0S.png)

And people expect Oz seller to sell at the same price as other countries?  :-//

You get really stung for those fees.   I'm sure we pay a lot less than that in our Melbourne office. I'll go and find out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 27, 2017, 02:33:05 pm
Duties came in at $1000.40? Coincidence or are they just making fees up because they figure a grand will do  ;)

Great to see your sample scopes arrived, Dave. I hope fortune smiles and you get the time to do a thorough review on this one. Everyone knows you have a lot on your shoulders though so I appreciate whatever you can do.  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: boffin on March 27, 2017, 02:52:04 pm
Is it possible to just get a shipping agent in Taiwan, and just ship them from there, rather to down-under and potentially back ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 27, 2017, 02:56:25 pm


@Rich@RohdeScopesUSA..  How do i get a decently priced Scope in New Zealand.  I can access it in the USA and do dubious shipping... but if theres a way to do it properly i'd perfer
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 27, 2017, 03:18:12 pm
Rich, how is the dvm feature done in the RTB?  Is there any dedicated circuitry for that or is it just calculated from the acquisition?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 27, 2017, 03:58:41 pm
Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV.  It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.
Unfortunately, I don't have a UPV (or any source/attenuator that can make that signal). I'll see if someone in Munich can do it though.

-Rich

A big thanks for passing the request along!  Hopefully someone in the lab there will be able to find time to do it.  Passing that test the way ci11 found the HMO1212 can do would be another selling point for the scope, especially for us audio types. 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrBungle on March 27, 2017, 05:21:23 pm
Dave still hasn't reviewed scopes he does have  ;D

Reviewing scopes properly takes several days solid work at least. I rarely get that sort of break, or can find time to commit to that at the moment.
And yes I have a wife and two kids (one school age, & one of which I take care of 1 full work day a week), a business to run, a new logistics employee to train, two new products in progress, and it's not like I can do lab stuff or shoot video at home when the wife is sleeping. Not to mention other videos I want to do.

Haha yeah I know, was just taking the piss, hence the big cheesy grin.
I was gonna stick my tongue out but that icon is kinda crap:  :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 27, 2017, 05:33:12 pm
For me, if you want a decent real world scope review, Mike's are honest real world tests, not just spec and feature testing. They include the good and the bad. I can see him becoming -the- de facto scope tester.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 27, 2017, 06:31:52 pm
20Hz @ 400 uV tortures a Keysight DSOX3000 series - in high res mode it will display it, trigger is hit/miss and measurements such as the frequency counter won't work. Of course the 1mV per division is zoomed and it is 8 bit. I used a 33250A with a 30dB attenuator to generate the signal.

Interesting!  Thanks for performing the test.  The 3000's were the other scope I had been seriously considering.  From  Rich's earlier quick noise floor test a 3000 series appeared to be around 2x noisier on the high vertical gain setting.  Sounds like the tiny signal is getting buried in the noise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 07:18:40 pm
For me, if you want a decent real world scope review, Mike's are honest real world tests, not just spec and feature testing. They include the good and the bad. I can see him becoming -the- de facto scope tester.
Ain't gonna happen...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 08:46:17 pm
Re. low-level stuff.
The smallest 20Hz sinewave signal it will reliably trigger from is about 1mV p-p. There is a slight offset on the trigger level and it's a little jittery- maybe 3-4%. 
These were with intensity at 100%

TBH if you're seriously working with signals that low you should probably be using an external amplifier - not too difficult or expensive at audio levels.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 09:22:06 pm
Anti-glare screen protector makes a huge difference to screen shininess - time will tell how durable it is but at £2.49 for two it's hardly a big deal if it needs replacing every so often.
I used this one, cut down
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191778503815?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191778503815?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 27, 2017, 09:22:37 pm
It's difficult to say anything about that trace comparison since there are a number of important differences (for HiRes mode):

Naturally, I would assume to see more features on the RTB's trace since there is more data, and the HMO's smaller screen resolution also does an 'optical average'?

Interesting screenshot, cheers!

What bandwidth does that HMO1202 have that is being compared to?
The datasheet does not directly list the model BW only that in 1mV/DIV mode the BW is 100MHz (HMO Manual, page 63: Analog Channels (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_DigitalOscilloscope_UserManual_en_03.pdf))

EDIT: never mind, I'm stupid and forgot they're both in 20 MHz limit mode.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 27, 2017, 10:30:15 pm
For me, if you want a decent real world scope review, Mike's are honest real world tests, not just spec and feature testing. They include the good and the bad. I can see him becoming -the- de facto scope tester.
Ain't gonna happen...

Hmmmmm.... of all the reviews I've seen of recently reviewed and released scopes, I can only draw one conclusion!

My point being that Dave tends to be doing teardowns rather than in-use reviews, and several others do "reviews" which add zero value beyond confirming what's on the data sheet, and the -only- person doing reviews using real use cases is you. A teardown is interesting its own right, but it's not a review of how well it works. Indeed, scope demo boards have their uses, those boards are designed to show off the good bits, not the less good bits. In the hands of a noob, reviewing a scope demo board with a scope is just confirming what's on the datasheet, and sometimes not even that, indeeed sometimes such reviews can be misleading.

Several "reviewers" are really out of their depth and/or only seem to receive scopes because they have significant Youtube subs or views, indeed I'm slightly surprised Pewdiepie, Casey Niestat or Zoella don't get scopes... or maybe they do.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 27, 2017, 10:51:19 pm
Maybe that is the whole point of sending scopes to reviewers who use the demo boards: only show the good parts and get attention. Ofcourse those reviews are useless for serious scope users. Of all the RTB2000 videos (until now) the one from Mike is the most informative.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 10:51:57 pm
My point being that Dave tends to be doing teardowns rather than in-use reviews

I explained that above, I want to do reviews, and intend to do reviews, but they are a massive amount of work and unfortunately often get put aside for other things. Please understand this.
I usually do a teardowns first because they are relatively quick, and I like to take apart something before I use it.

Quote
Indeed, scope demo boards have their uses, those boards are designed to show off the good bits, not the less good bits.

I use demo boards a lot for convenience. Often not of the same brand as the scope being tested.

Quote
Several "reviewers" are really out of their depth and/or only seem to receive scopes because they have significant Youtube subs or views, indeed I'm slightly surprised Pewdiepie, Casey Niestat or Zoella don't get scopes... or maybe they do.

Cynical much?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 10:59:51 pm
Maybe that is the whole point of sending scopes to reviewers: only show the good parts and get attention.

I for one show many things wrong with every product I review. To the point that many complain that I bitch and moan too much about nit picking details in products.
I showed Keysights new $15k scope blow up on their big launch day.
I showed a meter that blew up in my hand and almost killed me.
The list goes on.
Companies take a massive risk sending me stuff, and several companies avoid sending me stuff for this reason.

Yes, they send them to blogger for the attention, of course, why wouldn't they? How else can they directly reach such a massive target audience in an engaging way.
They know they have to take the good with the bad. I'm not aware of any bloggers in our space who don't say negative things about a product.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 27, 2017, 11:09:36 pm
Re. low-level stuff.
The smallest 20Hz sinewave signal it will reliably trigger from is about 1mV p-p. There is a slight offset on the trigger level and it's a little jittery- maybe 3-4%. 
These were with intensity at 100%

TBH if you're seriously working with signals that low you should probably be using an external amplifier - not too difficult or expensive at audio levels.

Thanks, Mike. These are interesting results from the RTB.

The plot thickens a bit as the attached additional plot shows the HMPO1212 triggering on a 20Hz 490µV sine without Hi-Res smoothing and there is plenty of trace detail, despite the much lower 640x480 screen resolution. No offset needed but I was told that triggering reliability is much better with Hi-Res mode on. One RTB sample should not a conclusion make, so more observation is likely needed.

With regards to using an external amplifier: differential amplifiers or probes offer more amplification of low level signals, but they do not increase the dynamic range. Good low level sensitivity increases both signal integrity and the dynamic range hence the usefulness of the scope for audio.

Once again, I thank the forum member who performed these painstaking tests methodically. He owns the HMO1212.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 27, 2017, 11:15:25 pm
I too agree that most reviews out there are rather useless and more 'unboxing' style and banner spec repeating.
Both Mike & Dave do actual useful measurements or comparisons to other gear that is not just comparing numbers
(well, they actually use the gear and show why they think something is weird/great/useful/novel).

It's a bit hard to put a finger on it but I think they do actually review the scopes differently and complement each other.
While Mike is more practical usefulness and of course tied to what he does professionally, Dave likes to take it apart and compares it to other gear he has used (or has in the lab).
It's not just about the datasheet values either but rather the curiosity to see what's inside and identify technology used in the gear.

I actually like the comparisons a lot since it is really difficult to ask a vendor for demo units.

Dave also shares his opinion on what he likes about it and what he thinks is useful or better or well done. Certainly able to dis a product too; or Mike's bug findings and usability/feature suggestions.
Point being that you get a broad overview of the scope by watching different style reviews and not just the one that identifies that it has too little memory ;)

I've been looking forward to Dave getting the RTB2000.

Scope reviews are difficult. Compare a review done by Shahriar/Dave/Mike vs. e.g. Watt Circuit.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Bud on March 27, 2017, 11:25:34 pm
Maybe that is the whole point of sending scopes to reviewers who use the demo boards: only show the good parts and get attention.

The public does not give shit about good on bad reviews. I exposed much of rigol incompetence in my Project Yaigol post, regardless - people still come in droves to by rigol crap.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 11:28:52 pm
I do like to poke at real hardware and not use stuff like built-in training waveforms etc. (e.g. I initially though that the UART decode framing issue might have been because I was running at 2Mbaud, but then verified it at more common rates.)
You do see a lot of reviewers doing little more than running through manufacturers' demos etc., which is a bit lazy. Having said that, I'm too lazy to do really comprehensive reviews, and tend to focus on what interests me.

I'll be using the R&S as my main scope for a while & may do the odd short vid on particular aspects but I don't have anything planned at the moment. ( Unless Dave misses something obvious  :D )
I also have a pretty big pile of teardown items that need attention...

Quote
Maybe that is the whole point of sending scopes to reviewers: only show the good parts and get attention.

Which is why any credible reviewer will not do paid reviews or allow right of edit before publication. If a manufacturer is happy with that, they have to have confidence in their product. 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 11:35:32 pm
Dave also shares his opinion on what he likes about it and what he thinks is useful or better or well done. Certainly able to dis a product too;

I thought I was kinda famous for dissing products?  ;D

Quote
or Mike's bug findings and usability/feature suggestions.

I usually find bugs and mention feature/usability issues in almost every review. Not sure why you think that would be a Mike only thing?

Quote
Point being that you get a broad overview of the scope by watching different style reviews and not just the one that identifies that it has too little memory ;)
I've been looking forward to Dave getting the RTB2000.

Bare in mind I have two other scopes that I got recently before this one I have not done reviews on yet. Well, actually, more than that if you go back :-[

Quote
Scope reviews are difficult.

They are actually impossible to do thoroughly.
Even on a basic scope like the new Siglent 2CH entry level job, testing and demoing every function everyone is interested in would be a several hour review.
Not to mention it being impossible to evaluate every feature in every combination to find bugs and usability issues etc. It's purely pot-luck.
Even my "quick overview" videos end up with 100-200 clips shot.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 27, 2017, 11:39:26 pm
The public does not give shit about good on bad reviews.

According to Georgia Guidestones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones) you should not worry too much about public as a whole... it's clearly on someones "todo list"... if you save some it's already sufficent  :-+ Let others enjoy good entertainment, no matter on YouTube or scope screen  :-DD


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 27, 2017, 11:53:25 pm
With regards to using an external amplifier: differential amplifiers or probes offer more amplification of low level signals, but they do not increase the dynamic range. Good low level sensitivity increases both signal integrity and the dynamic range hence the usefulness of the scope for audio.

hmm! Low sensitivity on its own is ofc nice but the scope's input amp still only does 1mV/DIV over 8 DIV with whatever resolution it has.
You can't  take advantage of sensitivity unless you can see the signal (dynamic range increased by HiRes mode) or what am I missing?

A good low noise preamp will do exactly that: improve system sensitivity, and give a noise figure better than that of the scope without preamp.
You don't necessarily give up measurement range either if your preamp has good enough noise figure, you can put attenuation after the preamp and still improve sensitivity while not amplifying overall anymore.

I also don't see how signal integrity is improved by lower sensitivity, sensitivity means I can detect signal - whether it's in good condition or not.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BloodyCactus on March 27, 2017, 11:53:55 pm
(e.g. I initially though that the UART decode framing issue might have been because I was running at 2Mbaud, but then verified it at more common rates.)

I need to see if I can reproduce that on my HMO1212 when I get some time. looks to be the exact same decode software and such, which doesnt surprise me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 11:56:18 pm

Quote
Scope reviews are difficult.

They are actually impossible to do thoroughly.
Even on a basic scope like the new Siglent 2CH entry level job, testing and demoing every function everyone is interested in would be a several hour review.
Not to mention it being impossible to evaluate every feature in every combination to find bugs and usability issues etc. It's purely pot-luck.
Even my "quick overview" videos end up with 100-200 clips shot.
Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....

 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 28, 2017, 12:02:22 am
Quote
or Mike's bug findings and usability/feature suggestions.
I usually find bugs and mention feature/usability issues in almost every review. Not sure why you think that would be a Mike only thing?

Oh, that wasn't my intention at all. You certainly do!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 28, 2017, 12:27:13 am
Dave, Mike,

I appreciate both your work. They are different style, which is a good thing, but you both do the best "real life" videos that I have found yet.
I think (hope) everybody here respects and values your efforts and thoroughness in your videos.

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 28, 2017, 12:45:10 am
With regards to using an external amplifier: differential amplifiers or probes offer more amplification of low level signals, but they do not increase the dynamic range. Good low level sensitivity increases both signal integrity and the dynamic range hence the usefulness of the scope for audio.

hmm! Low sensitivity on its own is ofc nice but the scope's input amp still only does 1mV/DIV over 8 DIV with whatever resolution it has.
You can't  take advantage of sensitivity unless you can see the signal (dynamic range increased by HiRes mode) or what am I missing?

A good low noise preamp will do exactly that: improve system sensitivity, and give a noise figure better than that of the scope without preamp.
You don't necessarily give up measurement range either if your preamp has good enough noise figure, you can put attenuation after the preamp and still improve sensitivity while not amplifying overall anymore.

I also don't see how signal integrity is improved by lower sensitivity, sensitivity means I can detect signal - whether it's in good condition or not.

To me, low level signal sensitivity carries with it not only detection but proper triggering. If a low level signal can be detected but not triggered, it's not of much use. Dynamic range to me means a usable visualization range which would include both being detected through good sensitivity and properly triggered. Dynamic range "improvement" from Hi-Res mode interpolates and/or averages, and that's not the same as real data properly acquired through a low-noise, sensitive analog front-end, and excellent triggering.

Naturally, a good preamp or differential amp  can bring up the signal level but they cannot make up for shortfalls inside the scope's analog front end, which is the job of the scope maker. The RTB with its proprietary 10-bit ADC and R&S' analog expertise promises a lot, and that is my original question - how can this goodness with a low level signal at low frequencies be quantified?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 28, 2017, 12:52:36 am
OK, but don't expect me to understand you when you make up your own definitions of those terms ???

EDIT: I also am also not sure of your understanding what is in front of the ADC input in your scope...?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2017, 01:02:21 am
Naturally, a good preamp or differential amp  can bring up the signal level but they cannot make up for shortfalls inside the scope's analog front end, which is the job of the scope maker. The RTB with its proprietary 10-bit ADC and R&S' analog expertise promises a lot, and that is my original question - how can this goodness with a low level signal at low frequencies be quantified?
An external amplifier can make up for lower low-level performance, both in input and trigger. Some of the front-end noise will go away at higher input levels.
See attached for full-screen 20Hz sinewave at 2.5 and 25mV/div ( using internal gen which has 20mv lower limit)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2017, 01:03:45 am
Scope rainbow!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 28, 2017, 01:20:38 am
Naturally, a good preamp or differential amp  can bring up the signal level but they cannot make up for shortfalls inside the scope's analog front end, which is the job of the scope maker. The RTB with its proprietary 10-bit ADC and R&S' analog expertise promises a lot, and that is my original question - how can this goodness with a low level signal at low frequencies be quantified?
An external amplifier can make up for lower low-level performance, both in input and trigger. Some of the front-end noise will go away at higher input levels.
See attached for full-screen 20Hz sinewave at 2.5 and 25mV/div ( using internal gen which has 20mv lower limit)

Thanks Mike. Gotta love all that screen real estate. Looks gorgeous.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gslick on March 28, 2017, 01:26:39 am
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 28, 2017, 01:36:42 am
Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....

 :-+

Yes, the R&S is quite frankly a daunting scope to review, especially when you know how much work is involved. It's like starting that complex PCB design from scratch.
But yeah, I do it the same way, basic + personal interest / unusual feature.

 My review style is to simply turn the unit on and press record and start playing and talking, going wherever it leads. Footage and commentary is all shot and done then and there. Often when I'm editing I'll realise I forgot something and need to weight up whether or not it's worth going back and shooting that bit. (My editing space and lab are now in two different locations BTW)
Sometimes I'm just spent and need to finish it and get on with other stuff, so I make do with what footage I got and just release that. If you are forever refining a review and adding stuff then it's a very deep rabbit hole.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 28, 2017, 01:37:40 am
I don't think anyone's saying it's easy to review a scope. However as eevblog is a vlog for electonics engineers both professional and hobbyist, I'd say a candid review of a scope's operation is worth quite a lot more than a teardown, interesting though that may be.

To put it into perspective the Ds1054Z series of videos Dave did a year or two ago were thorough enough to base a purchasing decision on.

At the other end of the spectrum having seen Ben Heck's attempt on the KS1000, I was left wondering if he'll ever receive a scope again. To compare, Applied Science, not an electronics-specific vlog,  has done tons more with his Tek scope than Ben Heck has ever done wirh his freebie Tek, and his KS1000 explains why.

My point is that if you are going to drop potentially several grand on a scope, you need a reasonably well qualified person with scruples to review it. The same doesn't necessarily apply to a $5 lipstick (if that's what lipstick costs, ahem).

So yes I am being cynical, and I don't mind confirming it!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 28, 2017, 01:40:46 am
Quote
Scope reviews are difficult.
They are actually impossible to do thoroughly.
Even on a basic scope like the new Siglent 2CH entry level job, testing and demoing every function everyone is interested in would be a several hour review.
Not to mention it being impossible to evaluate every feature in every combination to find bugs and usability issues etc. It's purely pot-luck.
Even my "quick overview" videos end up with 100-200 clips shot.
Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....
I agree. The review I wrote early last year took me nearly 6 weeks (combined with other work) to complete and I still didn't cover everything. I don't even want to think how to edit that into a video. It would be like a music video clip!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 28, 2017, 02:03:02 am
Sooo... has it killed anyone yet? :popcorn: I came here for some gore but got a testing methodology discussion instead.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2017, 02:14:37 am
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?
4 analogue, 4 references plus maths
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2017, 02:18:08 am
Sooo... has it killed anyone yet? :popcorn: I came here for some gore but got a testing methodology discussion instead.
The MSOX1000 would make a better wepon - smaller and heavier ( steel vs. aluminium chassis)
Also the less shiny screen means the victim is less likely to see you coming.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 28, 2017, 02:31:00 am
Sooo... has it killed anyone yet? :popcorn: I came here for some gore but got a testing methodology discussion instead.
The MSOX1000 would make a better wepon - smaller and heavier ( steel vs. aluminium chassis)
Also the less shiny screen means the victim is less likely to see you coming.
Stealth scopes? That'll push the price through the roof.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 28, 2017, 02:39:28 am
1. ok we understand that a full RTB2000 review is too much for Dave for doing it right now. 2. On the other side the RTB2000 has some features many users are waiting for since the invention of the DSO :)

How can this discrepancy be solved?

Because the general feature overviews are already out there it could be a good idea to make several but short reviews from time to time that highlight special issues of the RTB2000 series. That could be vertical resolution, sensitivity, fast remote control or other issues the users have discussed in this forum.   

This approach would 1. inform users about the most important features in short-term, 2. save Dave's time and 3. Dave doesn't have to repeat things that other bloggers already have shown.   ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 28, 2017, 02:43:56 am
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?

4 math channels would be nice ...  but its done with 4 reference waveforms

@mike   add a unicorn with the annotation tool and post it  under #RTB2000  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2017, 02:48:18 am
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?

4 math channels would be nice ...  but its done with 4 reference waveforms

@mike   add a unicorn with the annotation tool and post it  under #RTB2000  :-+
Bugger - forgot about annotations! I think have a cunning plan....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2017, 05:05:03 am
Nyanscope! Excuse poor cat drawing skills.

Getting the solid pink block was tricky - the annotation only stores a finite number of blobs - if you keep drawing, earlier stuff disappears. Had do do something nasty using a reference waveform.

Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaaCZ39wqU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaaCZ39wqU)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 28, 2017, 05:19:14 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaaCZ39wqU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaaCZ39wqU)
Seems like you made the video private? So Youtube claims it isn't there?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 28, 2017, 05:36:17 am
Ah on Twitter it works: https://twitter.com/mikelectricstuf/status/846419601529430019
hilarious!!!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 28, 2017, 05:57:40 am
 :-+ ...  somebody out there who doesn´t like cats?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 28, 2017, 06:06:37 am
Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!

That absolutely rocks! ;D  Yeah I turned the sound up expecting to hear the nyancat jingle. Hey the scope has gbps connectivity, what better mascot than nyancat?   8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 28, 2017, 06:12:29 am
Hack the Beeper!!!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 28, 2017, 06:35:40 am
Nyanscope! Excuse poor cat drawing skills.

Getting the solid pink block was tricky - the annotation only stores a finite number of blobs - if you keep drawing, earlier stuff disappears. Had do do something nasty using a reference waveform.

Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!
Naahhh it's cool enough as it is!  :-+ Had a good laugh about it!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 28, 2017, 06:37:05 am
Why hack? If it follows the logic of the other R&S Scopes it should be
Code: [Select]
SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
Generates an immediate beep.
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page  206

could you try this mike?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2017, 07:08:02 am
Why hack? If it follows the logic of the other R&S Scopes it should be
Code: [Select]
SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
Generates an immediate beep.
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page  206

could you try this mike?
It beeps (rather quietly) but no pitch control
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on March 28, 2017, 07:37:28 am
I have two units, one to giveaway!

BTW, I'm told that the launch deal on this scope is limited to 300 scopes in each market segment (US, Asia, Europe), so you'd better get in quick before the universities scoop them up.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C74i2QZVUAAWuSz.jpg:large)

Stil waiting for the launch in Europe... so far cannot find any such deal (R&S Benelux have never even replied to my email, it has been one week!)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 28, 2017, 07:40:00 am
1. ok we understand that a full RTB2000 review is too much for Dave for doing it right now. 2. On the other side the RTB2000 has some features many users are waiting for since the invention of the DSO :)

How can this discrepancy be solved?

I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 28, 2017, 07:53:45 am
I have two units, one to giveaway!

the ride never ends  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 28, 2017, 07:54:37 am
Why hack? If it follows the logic of the other R&S Scopes it should be
Code: [Select]
SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
Generates an immediate beep.
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page  206

could you try this mike?
It beeps (rather quietly) but no pitch control

... is there an arb waveform available to fm-modulate a sine wave on the gen output?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 28, 2017, 07:55:34 am
1. ok we understand that a full RTB2000 review is too much for Dave for doing it right now. 2. On the other side the RTB2000 has some features many users are waiting for since the invention of the DSO :)

How can this discrepancy be solved?
I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2017, 08:06:15 am
Why hack? If it follows the logic of the other R&S Scopes it should be
Code: [Select]
SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
Generates an immediate beep.
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page  206

could you try this mike?
It beeps (rather quietly) but no pitch control

... is there an arb waveform available to fm-modulate a sine wave on the gen output?
Don't think you can modulate with an arb, but there are quite a few options.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 28, 2017, 08:10:49 am
Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!

Pink cat with digestion problems flying over brand new scope screen. All in HD!
R&S could not imagine better promo :-)

Mike - full respect!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 28, 2017, 09:32:52 am
How can this discrepancy be solved?

I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.

No, careful! Please don't drop a scope!  :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 28, 2017, 09:40:02 am
How can this discrepancy be solved?
I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
No, careful! Please don't drop a scope!  :P
Especially if the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis! (Sorry, couldn't resist).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 29, 2017, 09:50:29 am
How can this discrepancy be solved?
I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
No, careful! Please don't drop a scope!  :P
Especially if the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis! (Sorry, couldn't resist).

Don't worry, these scopes have already broken through the eval 8bit wall without a scratch. Now the eval 8bit wall, that resisted for decades, will no longer disable honest engineers from looking behind the eval 8bit quantisation noise. Even two unknown 8bit scopes, that were sent to distract the attention of honest truthseeking users, will not stop their victory. Finally the 8bit wall ... has collapsed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 10:11:39 am
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.

Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 10:26:01 am
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.

Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Sounds like a job for the new employee...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 29, 2017, 10:45:30 am
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.

Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.

I also like the Keysight 1000X and the Siglent 1000X very much. On the other side: Keysight already delived a lot of videos during their scope month. I believe that the users expectations will be fulfilled with both scopes. I don't expect a sensation here.

Different with the RTB2000. The questions here is: Are we at the beginning of a new development cycle? After increasing samplerates, screensize, refreshrate and memory step by step for the last 20 years: Will vertical resolution and sensitivity be the feature, that will be improved by the vendors for the next decade step by step? What does the expanded dynamic mean for the measurement of THD, SNR,  etc.? Does the RTB2000 fulfill the expectations?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 29, 2017, 11:14:32 am
Send it over here, i'll review it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 29, 2017, 11:36:24 am
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.

Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Do the Hameg and GW Instek so you have something new to show & tell. Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 11:50:05 am
Do the Hameg and GW Instek so you have something new to show & tell. Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.

I don't care about being beaten.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 29, 2017, 11:51:01 am
Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.
No they have not, the 'reviews' were useless (for the RTB at least)!
Only Mike's showed it in actual use and you can see stuff on the screen. Dave does different things with scopes so it would still be valuable.
Also, there is quite a few people on the forum who bought the presale  and would love to get Dave's impression.



edit: quote mess  :S
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 29, 2017, 11:58:34 am
Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.
No they have not, the 'reviews' were useless (for the RTB at least)!
Only Mike's showed it in actual use and you can see stuff on the screen. Dave does different things with scopes so it would still be valuable.
Also, there is quite a few people on the forum who bought the presale  and would love to get Dave's impression.
Still it is zero information versus some information. I rather know more about the scopes with zero information available than the ones I've already seen in action. Mike's RTB2000 review & teardown was pretty thourough anyway and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.

@Dave: it is not about being beaten but I rather see something I have not seen before.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 29, 2017, 12:03:28 pm
Mike's RTB2000 review & teardown was pretty thourough anyway and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.

What are you talking about he only looked at the decoding and that was thorough, but far from all as he said himself. There is tons in the scope we haven't seen yet.
Title: RTB2004 FFT video review?
Post by: agdr on March 29, 2017, 12:04:51 pm
Speaking of things not seen yet, is anyone aware of a video review of the RTB2004 FFT posted anywhere yet?  Maybe part of one of the existing videos that I've missed. I've been using a Rigol 2000 series so there is nowhere to go  but up with the FFT, but still would love to see a review.  Especially of the RTB's FFT vs. some of these new crop of cheaper (list price) scopes coming out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 29, 2017, 12:09:30 pm
Mike's RTB2000 review & teardown was pretty thourough anyway and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.
What are you talking about he only looked at the decoding and that was thorough, but far from all as he said himself. There is tons in the scope we haven't seen yet.
You can't do a full functional test in a review. What Mike has showed (besides decoding) is how the menu's work, how the general operation works, etc so all in all it is a good review to get an idea whether you like the way it works or not. If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BravoV on March 29, 2017, 12:32:51 pm
Do the Hameg and GW Instek so you have something new to show & tell. Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.

I don't care about being beaten.

Nope, you're not beaten at all, just take your time Dave.

Don't get provoked just because some grasshopper is not patience.  :-DD

When it comes to Dave vs Mike on scope's review, to me at least, its like tea vs coffee, and I love both, you guys are just different.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 29, 2017, 12:33:38 pm
and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.

I think some options are too expensive but the base versions and the bandwidth-upgrades are ok. Even if it would be an 8bit DSO. But it is not. And it is the only 10bit device in that price class as far as I know. No competition for the moment. How to evaluate the fair price? Depends on the user and how much he needs I device that has less noise than other DSOs.
Title: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: agdr on March 29, 2017, 12:46:20 pm
...and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.

Just a reminder that the $2080 promo package deal on the RTB2004 *is* still going on at Newark, but apparently they can only sell into the USA market.  They have a pricing mixup with their system though.  I exchanged some PMs today with a fellow buying one and Rich from R&S.  The website shows $2080 here

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

But when you put it in your cart the number may flip to the $7900 (or $8600 I just learned) list price for the package.  Or it may show the correct price in the cart and $8600 then show up in the email confirm.  The system is grabbing from a database that doesn't have the promo pricing now that the deal is over at the other two US distributors.  Rich says you have to call into Newark's sales department and talk to them to get it priced correctly, until they can get the database thing worked out.

Only 50 units available apparently, total, at the promo price. No idea how many are sold already.

So in a nutshell, for USA buyers anyway, this really is a second chance if you missed the first round at the other 2 US distributors.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 29, 2017, 12:47:20 pm
If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.

OFC I am interested, why do you think I keep posting in here - which IS part of "doing the homework". Man I dislike remarks like that.
You can't get a loaner of this, hell you can't even buy it (5-6 weeks lead time) since there is no stock in EU. Which is the whole point of the reviewers getting early units.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 12:52:48 pm
I think some options are too expensive but the base versions and the bandwidth-upgrades are ok. Even if it would be an 8bit DSO. But it is not. And it is the only 10bit device in that price class as far as I know. No competition for the moment. How to evaluate the fair price? Depends on the user and how much he needs I device that has less noise than other DSOs.

Exactly. Hard to compare apples with apples here. Only way to do that is based on price, and this is actually not a cheap scope.
And you can't do a review based on a one-off launch special either. In fact it shouldn't even be mentioned.
If I did a quick "first impressions" video now then I'd mention it, but in a review, no.
Title: Re: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 12:54:05 pm
Only 50 units available apparenlty, total, at the promo price. No idea how many are sold already.

I was told there are 300 units in each market. US/EU/APAC
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 29, 2017, 01:02:27 pm
If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.
OFC I am interested, why do you think I keep posting in here - which IS part of "doing the homework". Man I dislike remarks like that.
You can't get a loaner of this, hell you can't even buy it (5-6 weeks lead time) since there is no stock in EU. Which is the whole point of the reviewers getting early units.
Homework=reading the specifications and user manual(s) to determine the exact functions and limitations. Review videos are just like a articles in a magazine to get people's interest going but by no means a good source of information to make a purchase decission for several $k.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 29, 2017, 01:10:18 pm
Thanks for stating the obvious...and I do not share your opinion regarding review videos.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 01:14:13 pm
I, for example, would like to see how the RTB2000 rises up to the waveform update rate expectations in different timebases and memory depth. I guess R&S can not really mess that up, but it still would be interesting to see.

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 01:35:30 pm
Used it for a few minutes and found an acquisition bug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-fuyHCs2Sw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-fuyHCs2Sw)
Title: Re: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: agdr on March 29, 2017, 01:53:42 pm
Only 50 units available apparenlty, total, at the promo price. No idea how many are sold already.

I was told there are 300 units in each market. US/EU/APAC

Probably is the case, but I'm pretty sure from the discussions today that Newark's allocation of that lot for round 2 is just 50.  I'll bet the other 250 is what already was sold in round 1 by the 2 US and 2 Canadian distributors.

I just figured out where the $8,600 number comes from. :)  The $7,900 list price plus tax.  That is one issue with Newark, they likely have a presence in all 50 states so everyone in the US gets taxed.  Expect to pay state tax on the $2080 promo bundle.  I had to pay tax at one of the first round distributors, $171 I think it was.

EDIT! just saw the review!  That is great.  Right off the bat you found a bug!  :-+  Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 02:00:23 pm
And another (probably related) bug switching channels off and on at slow timebase

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ott9syzNLuE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ott9syzNLuE)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 02:19:25 pm
I hope those can be fixed by firmware....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 02:24:32 pm
I hope those can be fixed by firmware....

Absolutely no doubt.
If the channel switch off thing is like a relay breaking the input circuit or whatever and causing actual sampling signal issues, then even that can be fixed in software by masking off first. It's a display thing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 02:29:47 pm
Right. The first bug, though could be sampling hardware timing related, no? Which worst case could be at least pretty hard to fix or just with a workaround.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 02:34:04 pm
Right. The first bug, though could be sampling hardware timing related, no?

Maybe just an FPGA acquisition memory sizing bug, some dodgy Verilog somewhere or something maybe.  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 02:45:54 pm
True. Time will tell I guess...  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 29, 2017, 03:25:08 pm
True. Time will tell I guess...  ;)

There is very little that can't be fixed, one way or another, in software. Both bugs just look like they're displaying/interpreting the stored data erroneously.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: oh2hyt on March 29, 2017, 04:20:09 pm
I contacted local R&S at start of this week. They kindly told they do not have promotion here and price for that set is 7190e + tax.  :--
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 04:47:15 pm
All I needed was another few minutes using it and I just found a fairly serious issue.
Was going to do a 2nd channel video, but decided to compare with every other scope in the lab for the same issue and it's interesting enough to put on the main channel.
Stay tuned...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 29, 2017, 05:22:57 pm
How does one actually compare the noise correctly? If I see it correctly in the review videos the RTB2000 seems to have 10 vertical divisions? On the other boxes it seems to be 8? Is this true or are my eyes getting old?
So do I have to scale the numbers in some way?

P.S. Still waiting at my delivery: expected next week :-). Did anybody else already get his box?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 29, 2017, 05:34:13 pm
How does one actually compare the noise correctly? If I see it correctly in the review videos the RTB2000 seems to have 10 vertical divisions? On the other boxes it seems to be 8? Is this true or are my eyes getting old?
So do I have to scale the numbers in some way?

P.S. Still waiting at my delivery: expected next week :-). Did anybody else already get his box?

1mv/div is always 1mv/div despite the number of divisions unless you can't fit the noise on screen. If that's the case you can toss that scope out the window.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 29, 2017, 06:16:40 pm
Dear R&S. Thanks for yoru marketing stunt. Was going to buy one, but seems i cant'. And now i just dont' like you.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 08:17:17 pm
If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.
OFC I am interested, why do you think I keep posting in here - which IS part of "doing the homework". Man I dislike remarks like that.
You can't get a loaner of this, hell you can't even buy it (5-6 weeks lead time) since there is no stock in EU. Which is the whole point of the reviewers getting early units.
Homework=reading the specifications and user manual(s) to determine the exact functions and limitations. Review videos are just like a articles in a magazine to get people's interest going but by no means a good source of information to make a purchase decission for several $k.
That's useful, except the user manual is far from complete - in particular no significant docs on any of the options. There are also errors in the datasheets ( e.g. UART baudrate)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 08:32:05 pm
I was seeing some occasional, minor glitches in roll mode when doing the nyanscope demo.
It does often seem to do more apparently intialising- type stuff when changing apparently minor things, like it's reinitialising everything on any change that might affect something rather than only changing what's needed - I think maybe this makes some things fell a little more clunky than they should.

e.g. you hear relay clicks when sample rate changes from 2.5 to 1.25Gs/s.
I agree it should show memory in the top-right area.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 08:53:31 pm
Re.dave's first bug - if you change the acquisition mode, you sometimes see some major glitches in the left-hand area - it looks like it's reading from the wrong memory areas.
Interestingly if you try to capture the glitch by stopping acquisition, it overwrites the glitch before stopping, so I think just a memory offset error somewhare
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: darkstar49 on March 29, 2017, 09:54:56 pm

I guess a 'modded' Tek MDO3014 is also a nice candidate, a bit more expensive, but it goes to 500Mhz, and has quite a bunch of options...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 10:59:52 pm
A few more minutes playing uncovered this problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE9pYUVvr00 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE9pYUVvr00)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 11:04:56 pm
It does often seem to do more apparently intialising- type stuff when changing apparently minor things, like it's reinitialising everything on any change that might affect something rather than only changing what's needed - I think maybe this makes some things fell a little more clunky than they should.

That was my impression as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 11:23:17 pm
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 29, 2017, 11:28:21 pm
A few more minutes playing uncovered this problem:

Shocking is correct word for this issue. For very short moment was thinking getting one but with this... just imagine debugging something mechanical with it - robot or motor  :palm: When I did my motor stuff sometimes even the screws on table legs did unscrew due to high pitch vibration... and you do need mesure very low voltages on current shunts...  Now imagine some smug well paid R&S Q&A bloke driving his Porsche  :-+ World is broken  :-BROKE Who will keep systems running when current generation will be all visiting Tesla in electric heaven?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 29, 2017, 11:33:40 pm
Now all the companies will be afraid to send Dave any new scope for review fearing he'll go full Harry Potter on its ass ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 11:41:05 pm
How many people actually tap on a touchscren?
All scopes to it to some extent.
On my unit I also see ch1 being more sensitive, but no sensible-strength tap on the screen shows it at all.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 29, 2017, 11:41:52 pm
Also, I must admit I find it a bit amusing how Dave seems genuinely disappointed at first when Siglent doesn't seem to exhibit any tapping problems while the Rigol is "good old" even the second before showing the ridiculous scale of effect at the slightest of touches ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 11:42:04 pm
I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?

I can picture in labs everywhere - "No one move, I'm trying to trigger!"

Maybe they should provide a capacitive touch feather with each unit?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 11:43:27 pm
Also, I must admit I find it a bit amusing how Dave seems genuinely disappointed at first when Siglent doesn't seem to exhibit any tapping problems while the Rigol is "good old" even the second before showing the ridiculous scale of effect at the slightest of touches ;D

Only "good old" because every man and his dog has one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 11:46:44 pm
How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

Quote
All scopes to it to some extent.
On my unit I also see ch1 being more sensitive, but no sensible-strength tap on the screen shows it at all.

The problem with the R&S is that a big feature is the touch screen, and you can see at the end of the video how just tapping it causes a large scale signal impulse.  And I was only at 2mV per division, not 1mV.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 11:48:13 pm
Also, I must admit I find it a bit amusing how Dave seems genuinely disappointed at first when Siglent doesn't seem to exhibit any tapping problems while the Rigol is "good old" even the second before showing the ridiculous scale of effect at the slightest of touches ;D

Only "good old" because every man and his dog has one.
..and hasn't complained about the issue, so clearly not a big deal.
Now on a portable scope it would be another matter, as it might be put on a vibrating surface.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 29, 2017, 11:50:55 pm
Note to self: do not listen to drum'n'bass while probing stuff.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 11:56:56 pm
How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

It does seem to vary between units - maybe depends how tightly the screws near the front-end are tightened - I think mine had loctite on before i took it apart - have you had yours apart yet ?

Mine shows significant disturbance on ch1, and only slight on ch4 when tapping the top case with fingers.
Tapping BNCs with a pen, near Ch1 is pretty sensitive, others produce disturbance mostly on ch1, with ch4 being a little more sensitive

But I get absolutely nothing on the touchscreen even tapping hard with fingernails ( at 1mv/div) . It does have an anti-reflection screen-protector on, which may act as a lowpass filter and damp resopnance in the glass.
Really don't see it being a problem.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pmcouto on March 30, 2017, 12:02:32 am
EEVblog #983 – Dave plays Whack-a-Scope!  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 30, 2017, 12:03:47 am
How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

This. Dave seems to inadvertently trigger some action on any touchscreen device in pretty much every episode featuring one ("Bloody touchscreens!") ;) I, on the other hand, hate fingerprints on non-touch screens and I'm sure I have stuff I used for years without ever putting my greasy fingers to its LCD. We had one colleague at work who was going absolutely ballistic when you touched his PC's screen.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 30, 2017, 12:06:28 am
The problem with the R&S is that a big feature is the touch screen, and you can see at the end of the video how just tapping it causes a large scale signal impulse.  And I was only at 2mV per division, not 1mV.

Actually, CH1 was on 1mV, the rest on 2mV (at the end of the video)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 30, 2017, 12:06:36 am
Maybe the RTB having 10-bit ADC makes it more "sensitive" than the 8-bit scopes?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Avacee on March 30, 2017, 12:07:39 am
Now have a picture of people all across the world currently whacking their scopes, DMMS, PSU's, SMU's ....

Looking forward to future teardowns looking at whack-a-scope attenuation and for cushion mounted mainboards and connectors :)

Does whack-a-scope also cause peaks on any signal generator output? ... or DMMs and Power Supplies?
That could cause fun on SMU tests if they suffer too :p
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 12:08:50 am
How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

This. Dave seems to inadvertently trigger some action on any touchscreen device in pretty much every episode featuring one ("Bloody touchscreens!") ;) I, on the other hand, hate fingerprints on non-touch screens and I'm sure I have stuff I used for years without ever putting my greasy fingers to its LCD. We had one colleague at work who was going absolutely ballistic when you touched his PC's screen.
I have it on a shelf above the bench, so the natural angle is to touch it with the pad of the finger - maybe if it's lower down it's prone to getting a harder touch and occasional fingernail
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: madires on March 30, 2017, 12:17:52 am
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2017, 12:24:29 am
I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

Of course they do.

Quote
It does seem to vary between units - maybe depends how tightly the screws near the front-end are tightened - I think mine had loctite on before i took it apart - have you had yours apart yet ?

No, not yet. Factory freash, 5 minutes of use.
And yes it will vary between units. Component variability alone.
There is obviously direct coupling between the various connection points in the assembly, and likely the offending CH1 cap(s) are in a higher mechanical resonate mode spot on the board compared to the other channels. I used to work on this stuff all the time in my seismic days, physical location on PCB and location to rigid mounting posts makes a hell of the difference. Hit a resonance mode sweet spot and it sings like a bird.

Quote
Mine shows significant disturbance on ch1, and only slight on ch4 when tapping the top case with fingers.

Being similar to mine that indicates it's more mechanical mode coupling and PCB location resonance related than component differences.

Quote
Really don't see it being a problem.

It was blindly obvious to me in the first few minutes of using it, so I'd say it's a problem.
Tapping the BNC's, ok, every scope has a direct coupling at that point, fair enough.
Whacking the top of the unit, ok, don't do that, fair enough.
But a much touted touch screen being able to generate many division level impulses when tapped is unacceptable, even if some units aren't as susceptible.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 30, 2017, 12:26:33 am
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
I don't think it is broken by design.  If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same.  You can avoid the full touchscreen interface and operate it remotely when you need to do really sensitive measurements.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on March 30, 2017, 12:27:57 am
Well this is very disappointing!

On the 16th March I paid for and placed an order for a Rohde & Schwarz RTB2K-COM4 package with TEquipment.
This was before any message appeared on their web page stating "SHIPPING TO USA ADDRESSES ONLY!".

The order was accepted and the next day I spoke to lady from TEquipment who confirmed my address and payment.

A couple of days latter I had an email conversations with TEquipment about shipping dates and was assured that I would receive a unit. In fact it was stressed that I was likely to receive one with much sooner than the quoted 3rd May.

Then just now I received a email saying:

"Unfortunately due to our contractual obligations with R & S we are unable to export any of the items sold by them and we will have to cancel the order you placed with us."

TEquipment then refunded my money that they had kindly kept in their bank for me over the last 13 days.

This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 30, 2017, 12:31:47 am
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
I don't think it is broken by design.  If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same.
But not in the same amount. The Keysight and Siglent (GW Instek too BTW) need a really hard wack to distort the signal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2017, 12:32:23 am
Now have a picture of people all across the world currently whacking their scopes, DMMS, PSU's, SMU's ....
Looking forward to future teardowns looking at whack-a-scope attenuation and for cushion mounted mainboards and connectors :)

The first manufacturer to come up with an isolated front end daughter board held in place by rubber bands will win the market I tell you.
A killing will also be had on 3rd party rubber band replacement kits in 10 years time.
Just don't try to patent it, I have prior art more than a decade back.
I also have prior art on using cotton wool, antistatic foam, sorbothane, and feminine hygine products (long story).

Pro tip, it's also possible to get helpful isolation using various jazzy PCB routing techniques.

Quote
Does whack-a-scope also cause peaks on any signal generator output? ... or DMMs and Power Supplies?
That could cause fun on SMU tests if they suffer too :p

The volt and frequency nuts will tell you all about that.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2017, 12:35:15 am
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
I don't think it is broken by design.  If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same.  You can avoid the full touchscreen interface and operate it remotely when you need to do really sensitive measurements.

Umm, why should you have to do that?
It's a pretty reasonable expectation to be able to use the touch screen feature on a touch screen scope without worrying whether it's going to impact your signal measurement.
I found this issue in normal use.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2017, 12:39:18 am
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 12:41:43 am
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
I don't think it is broken by design.  If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same.  You can avoid the full touchscreen interface and operate it remotely when you need to do really sensitive measurements.

So if you can't use a highly sensitive measurement gear as is it supposed to be used,but you need to have a workaround (in this case Remote Control) it is not broken by design? Maybe then they should have advertised this bug as a feature...  :-//  :--
But let's see how bad it really is for me in normal use. But if Dave finds that in the first few minutes it is probably not just a tiny thing....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 30, 2017, 12:43:48 am
It was blindly obvious to me in the first few minutes of using it, so I'd say it's a problem.
Tapping the BNC's, ok, every scope has a direct coupling at that point, fair enough.
Whacking the top of the unit, ok, don't do that, fair enough.
But a much touted touch screen being able to generate many division level impulses when tapped is unacceptable, even if some units aren't as susceptible.

Thanks Dave - for the quick 20Hz look over and then the tap test. This is interesting.

The reason for the 20Hz test is that it matters to audio. And the mechanical coupling issues is equally relevant because the excitation is well within audio range. Even if the user doesn't pound or tap on the case, the BNC does wiggle from time to time when the probe lead is moved. And that will find its way into the waveform. We can see from the HMO1202 teardown video that the BNC's are directly soldered onto the PCB, and if this construction is repeated on the RTB, this is clearly something to think about.

I have a theory why this may not have been caught by R&S and the others. It is simply that these scope at 70MHz - 300MHz BW were designed to compete well in signal diagnosis and bus decoding, and audio is not part of their consideration. A microphone preamp designer would never miss these design and construction considerations.

I can hear it now in München - "Es war nicht im Lastenheft" (it was not in the specs).

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 30, 2017, 12:45:03 am
Dave, now you know why the ASIC is SAD ;)

Ok, enough bad puns for today from my side. Pinky promise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 30, 2017, 12:50:31 am
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?

This is how 8k-20k€ equipment is working ... while hitting the inputs with fingernails. Slapping the chassis produces this as well but not that high, its mostly covered by its noise.
I´ve to hit my RTB unit pretty hard before its doing this.

In normal use there s no problem with my one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2017, 01:05:05 am
If you want this problem fixed, just talk to marketing. They'll insist upon the world's first "Low Vibration Front End".
The sales people will love because they'll be able to do side-by-side demos tapping on the competitor BNCs and showing how crap they are!
I'm serious.

LowVibTM  ;D
or the even better NoVibTM
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 01:07:41 am
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?

This is how 8k-20k€ equipment is working ... while hitting the inputs with fingernails. Slapping the chassis produces this as well but not that high, its mostly covered by its noise.
I´ve to hit my RTB unit pretty hard before its doing this.

In normal use there s no problem with my one.

Thanks for pointing that out. It is clear that any scope is more or les susceptible for this. In case of the RTB it worries me that using the touchscreen as intended could lead to problems.
I would have thought a venerable company like R&S has better performance in terms of unwanted signals.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 30, 2017, 01:27:43 am
Interesting is that the heavy scopes are doing this as well. Even if they are built like a Pzkpfw VI.

@Dave which ones have chassis- mounted BNCs?


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 30, 2017, 01:40:49 am
If you want this problem fixed, just talk to marketing. They'll insist upon the world's first "Low Vibration Front End".
The sales people will love because they'll be able to do side-by-side demos tapping on the competitor BNCs and showing how crap they are!
I'm serious.

LowVibTM  ;D
or the even better NoVibTM

This whole topic makes me slightly nostalgic...
Microphonic tubes, anyone?  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 30, 2017, 01:45:04 am
I just tried the 2 of my scopes, one being quite expensive and the other at the "budget" end: a 400MHz LeCroy and a 60MHz Tek. Using the rubberized grip of my PB "Swiss Grip" #2 screwdriver, both yielded the same results: wacking on the case, nothing, even when it's a pretty hard wack; right on the BNC, yes, but it would have to be a deliberate and moderately hard wack.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 30, 2017, 01:48:25 am
Very interesting tests. I think the case-hitting sensitivity is a question of high or low quaility but the "touchscreen normal usage" sensitivity could be a warranty issue. R&S should fix that.

As already discussed here these electromechanical issues are well known in audio technology. And R&S sells audio analyzers. I recommend that the R&S audio developers have a look at the RTB2000.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 30, 2017, 02:02:21 am
The first manufacturer to come up with an isolated front end daughter board held in place by rubber bands will win the market I tell you.
A killing will also be had on 3rd party rubber band replacement kits in 10 years time.
Just don't try to patent it, I have prior art more than a decade back.
I also have prior art on using cotton wool, antistatic foam, sorbothane, and feminine hygine products (long story).

Pro tip, it's also possible to get helpful isolation using various jazzy PCB routing techniques.

FWIW, Tek TPS2014 (1st series) is affected by wackyness. never had to open it but i don't think the acquisition boards are held in place by rubbers ;D
infact it's pretty much worse than anyone in the video
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 30, 2017, 02:06:14 am
Or maybe you meant mechanically isolated?
Still, scope shot is always welcome

Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170329/fa6ef4276eb0df23a58683134bf0f2c7.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on March 30, 2017, 03:31:02 am
Gotta love the age of the internet, enables you to make informed buying decisions !

Shocking discoveries by the way  :popcorn: 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: GlowingGhoul on March 30, 2017, 03:41:10 am
Well this is very disappointing!

On the 16th March I paid for and placed an order for a Rohde & Schwarz RTB2K-COM4 package with TEquipment.
This was before any message appeared on their web page stating "SHIPPING TO USA ADDRESSES ONLY!".

The order was accepted and the next day I spoke to lady from TEquipment who confirmed my address and payment.

A couple of days latter I had an email conversations with TEquipment about shipping dates and was assured that I would receive a unit. In fact it was stressed that I was likely to receive one with much sooner than the quoted 3rd May.

Then just now I received a email saying:

"Unfortunately due to our contractual obligations with R & S we are unable to export any of the items sold by them and we will have to cancel the order you placed with us."

TEquipment then refunded my money that they had kindly kept in their bank for me over the last 13 days.

This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.

Based on what I'm reading regarding the touchscreen induced anomalies consider yourself lucky to have dodged this bullet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 30, 2017, 03:52:40 am
Well this is very disappointing!
[...]
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.

Maybe you can buy Octane's scope -- he seems to be regretting his purchase now (see post #706 in this thread). Win-win!  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 30, 2017, 03:59:48 am
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 04:02:26 am
Well this is very disappointing!
[...]
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.

Maybe you can buy Octane's scope -- he seems to be regretting his purchase now (see post #706 in this thread). Win-win!  ;)

Let's first see how it behaves once I get it. I'm building up my lab here and need a scope. And since it's likely not a problem with higher V/Div I probably can live with it. Although it is disappointing to get something from a higher end manufacturer with such a stupid issue.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 30, 2017, 04:11:51 am
Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected

My old Tek TDS2024 have been  beaten for 5 min and nothing.
It seems that I can't join  to this privilaged club of "mikeScopes".

Anyway. tequipment has canceled my European order after they
promissed delivery on 3th May. I saw new 7 units ready to sell at their's page.
Lucky ( or not considering bugs found) those US folks who will get another chance ...

Now I have extra 2k$ to spend on the equipment:
Let's play and try to collect equal ( functionality)  or better ( price) equivalent
equipment:

Goal:
Budget: 2080USD+
Components ( could be separate):
DSO or MSO 4 channel , 200MHz+ , FFT ( for small frequecy filter graphing, EMI detection ),  I2C, Parallel, SPI, Serial decoding, ( CAN,LIN will be  +)
Arbitrary generator for at least 25MHz+
Not Rhode & Schwarz ( start to do not like this company - guess why )
Cherry on a cake - DMM 5+ digit LoZ, ESR ( covers multimeter RTB function)

Priority:
1) Quality ( mid is enough) 
2) price ( have to save some money for a beer)
3) features ( everyone likes to play)

Types:
DSO/MSO : Rigol 1054Z ( what options to buy, what options to hack?)
Arbitrary generator: ?
DMM: SANWA PC5000A ( almost the same as brymen 857)

Could you help with con/pros other proposals ?
Is there something left for descend 1GHz+ spectrum analyser ?



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 04:12:55 am
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 30, 2017, 04:28:18 am
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation.

Capacity depends on the distance between the layers. Stress on a capacitor therefore has different effects if applicated parallel or perpendicular to the layer-area. Also as Dave mentioned piezo effects of the ceramic depend on the stress direction.

This is like a condensor or piezo mic. The direction of the sound wave must have a perpendicular component to the capacitor area for changing the capacitor layer distance.

Addendum: To clarify: That means the orientation of the capacitor on the PCB is relevant because the PCB transfers the stress to the capacitor.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 30, 2017, 04:29:24 am
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature.  But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune.  If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 04:41:13 am
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature.  But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune.  If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.

I guess this makes sense. Since it is a piezoelectric effect you can easily "short" the voltage with the 50 Ohm resistor.
Piezos can get you high voltages with basically no current through them, as long as you are not driving them at there mechanical resonance.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 30, 2017, 04:46:44 am
Dave, (off topic but...) in your experience did sorbothane live up to its hype and outperform other common vibration insulators? Or was it only marginally different in use?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 30, 2017, 04:53:59 am
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature.  But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune.  If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.

I guess this makes sense. Since it is a piezoelectric effect you can easily "short" the voltage with the 50 Ohm resistor.
Piezos can get you high voltages with basically no current through them, as long as you are not driving them at there mechanical resonance.
Another test: 10Hz 2mVpp sinusoidal signal from WaveGen, direct BNC-BNC cable to CH1.  Both CH1 and CH2 ON.  Display persistence infinite.  Wack the scope (quite hard) and CH1 signal does not seem to be affected, only CH2.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 04:59:12 am
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature.  But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune.  If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.

I guess this makes sense. Since it is a piezoelectric effect you can easily "short" the voltage with the 50 Ohm resistor.
Piezos can get you high voltages with basically no current through them, as long as you are not driving them at there mechanical resonance.
Another test: 10Hz 2mVpp sinusoidal signal from WaveGen, direct BNC-BNC cable to CH1.  Both CH1 and CH2 ON.  Display persistence infinite.  Wack the scope (quite hard) and CH1 signal does not seem to be affected, only CH2.

WaveGen is 50 Ohm, isn't it?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 30, 2017, 05:04:16 am
Dave, (off topic but...) in your experience did sorbothane live up to its hype and outperform other common vibration insulators? Or was it only marginally different in use?

I am using rubber granulate matte typically used for dampening washing machines. Its the best for the price that I know. The critical issue with dampening are always the bass frequencies that have a lot of energy and that are also included in the spectrum of shock bursts. Here much helps much. Therefore I think the affordable rubber granulate has an advantage if you need much.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 05:10:14 am
With a 50R terminator on the input the issue completely disappears - only a hard wack on the connector produces maybe 1 div, so looks like energy transer into a very early part of the input stage.
Even plugging in a standard 10:1 probe with its tip shorted reduces the issue very substantially.

If you're interested in low-level signals, chances are you're going to be usjng a fairly low impedance source, but even with a normal probe it's pretty much a non-issue.

I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 05:14:41 am
Dave - can you try repeating your test with the R&S probe plugged in, on 10:1 and the tip shorted.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 05:15:03 am
I'm not aware of any piezoelectrically active plastic dielectrics if not specifically made polar, like in electret microphones? Am I wrong?
Or are you thinking more along the way of triboelectricity?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 30, 2017, 05:27:35 am
I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector
You might be right... Connect a BNC cable to CH1 and Wack the BNC on the other end of the cable...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 30, 2017, 05:32:47 am
I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector
You might be right... Connect a BNC cable to CH1 and Wack the BNC on the other end of the cable...

Yes: Beating just a BNC cable creates 5mV spikes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Messtechniker on March 30, 2017, 05:47:55 am
Could it be that you are observing an old and well known
effect called "Microphonics"? Components and cables are known to be
microphonic to a certain extent. Simply tap on a cable carrying a
unbalanced low level microphone signal and you will see what I mean.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on March 30, 2017, 05:50:30 am
I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector
You might be right... Connect a BNC cable to CH1 and Wack the BNC on the other end of the cable...
The cable itself is not immune to the effect either. Dave did in the past some experiments with Tek scope and probes, and he also whacked the cable on the bench. And yes, he's got a response on the screen (rewind to 8:00): https://youtu.be/KFCRB4d991E?t=8m4s
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 05:53:17 am
Yes, see earlier posts in this thread. And I guess we are drifting a little bit off path here.
The main issue was that the RTB2k scope seems to be very sensitive to this microphonics when just tapped on the touchscreen.
But this may not be too relevant, since this seems only to make problems when the channel is open.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 30, 2017, 05:57:27 am
Could it be that you are observing an old and well known
effect called "Microphonics"? Components and cables are known to be
microphonic to a certain extent. Simply tap on a cable carrying a
unbalanced low level microphone signal and you will see what I mean.

I think it is pretty clear that all the effects discussed in the past couple of pages fall in the "microphonics" category, and the term has been mentioned a couple of times in the prior posts. Cables, capacitors, vacuum tube grids etc. can translate mechanical vibrations into electrical signals, like a (typically capacitive) microphone.

Your description is a bit misleading -- you don't need to connect an actual (intentional) microphone to experience (undesired) microphonics; the afore-mentioned components alone are enough to produce the effect.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 06:08:39 am
But this may not be too relevant, since this seems only to make problems when the channel is open.

Theres huge uncharted territory between open channel and shorted channel. This need scientific approach. Suggest 3D chart with following axes: X - frequency of stimulation (can be done using ultra powerful piezo etc, rigidly attached to scope chassis), Y - channel impedance ("load"), Z - scope response. Should take no more than a week of testing  :P
Of course there should be 3D acceleration sensors in various places to analyze stimulation wave propagation etc. Ideally it would be not constant wave but single soliton, otherwise standing waves could build up. Altering resonant frequency of chassis, PCB by adding sensors should be also taken into account.
So if done properly bit more than week, maybe year or so...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 06:20:25 am
But this may not be too relevant, since this seems only to make problems when the channel is open.

Theres huge uncharted territory between open channel and shorted channel. This need scientific approach. Suggest 3D chart with following axes: X - frequency of stimulation (can be done using ultra powerful piezo etc), Y - channel impedance ("load"), Z - scope response. Should take no more than a week of testing  :P

Hehe, true. But since piezo-/triboelectric sources are most of the time quite high impedance I assume that in most cases it will not be a problem. Anyways, I'm at least trying to convince myself of this, so that I can still be looking forward in getting the RTB2004.

Maybe Mike and Dave will have to say more soon, since they can already use the RTB in their daily business.

P.S.: only 2 days left to the "expected shipping" date... let's see if it is true.
Title: Re: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: corax on March 30, 2017, 06:35:09 am

Just a reminder that the $2080 promo package deal on the RTB2004 *is* still going on at Newark, but apparently they can only sell into the USA market.  They have a pricing mixup with their system though.  I exchanged some PMs today with a fellow buying one and Rich from R&S.  The website shows $2080 here

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

But when you put it in your cart the number may flip to the $7900 (or $8600 I just learned) list price for the package.  Or it may show the correct price in the cart and $8600 then show up in the email confirm.  The system is grabbing from a database that doesn't have the promo pricing now that the deal is over at the other two US distributors.  Rich says you have to call into Newark's sales department and talk to them to get it priced correctly, until they can get the database thing worked out.


I ordered one from Newark yesterday, and as predicted, the email confirmation came back today with a total of $7920 (no sales tax here).

After a bit of time on the phone with a confused Newark customer service rep, the order was cancelled/replaced and a confirmation came back with the correct price.
He stated that they had these in stock; shipping date is supposed to be tomorrow.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2017, 06:41:56 am
One would suspect any scope with BNC's that are fastened to a chassis to exhibit lower microphonics.
Mentioned by a member was his TDS2000, Dave showed an old TDS1000 and all the Siglent's I have had apart also have nuts on the BNC holding them to a metal chassis.
Both the Teks mentioned above have BNC's fastened to chassis.
As yet I haven't looked inside a SDS1kX but I suspect they will have nuts on their BNC's too and it seems this construction method is superior in regard to lower microphonics. Can't even have a look at any of the SDS1kX....all sold out.  :(  :)

Very interesting vid Dave, thanks for taking the time to do it.
Whack a scope  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 06:44:09 am
But this may not be too relevant, since this seems only to make problems when the channel is open.

Theres huge uncharted territory between open channel and shorted channel. This need scientific approach. Suggest 3D chart with following axes: X - frequency of stimulation (can be done using ultra powerful piezo etc, rigidly attached to scope chassis), Y - channel impedance ("load"), Z - scope response. Should take no more than a week of testing  :P
Of course there should be 3D acceleration sensors in various places to analyze stimulation wave propagation etc. Ideally it would be not constant wave but single soliton, otherwise standing waves could build up. Altering resonant frequency of chassis, PCB by adding sensors should be also taken into account.
So if done properly bit more than week, maybe year or so...
You could test til the cows come home but there is only really one thing that matters - highest sensible input impedance and highest sensible impact.
A quick test with a x10 probe suggests it's a non-issue.
For low-level measurements chances are you'll be using 1x probing, and your source is going to need reasonably low source impedance due to the capacitance of a x1 probe. So it's even less of an issue.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 06:50:31 am
You could test til the cows come home but there is only really one thing that matters - highest sensible input impedance and highest sensible impact.

:palm: You just ruined good science project with about 100kEUR budget! Damn! What next, maybe dismiss whole CERN-fest with some embarrassingly practical remark :( People need to feed the families!
...and while at it, why not ruin go-to-Mars project also: "theres sand with life in it in my (rainbow) cat litter box, why go to Mars :-//"

Edit: Maybe theres still hope for science, what about x100 probe? These make good use of 10bit ADC.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thm_w on March 30, 2017, 07:29:37 am
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.

Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 30, 2017, 08:19:55 am
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.

Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is  over 7k euro ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 30, 2017, 08:36:13 am
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.

Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is  over 7k euro ...

If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on March 30, 2017, 08:38:28 am
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.

Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is  over 7k euro ...

I did read the thread.
I was with it from the very first page.

As soon as I saw the offer (see post 198) and before any one had said this was for the USA and Canada only my order had been placed and accepted.

Only after I had placed my order did all the "USA and Canada" only messages spring up.
I question Tequipment and it all seem aright then 13 days later they cancel. Not sure how long it will be until the money is return to my account!

Anyway I am going to order one from Newark and have it delivered to are facility in Toronto for shipping here.

We will see how that works out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on March 30, 2017, 08:49:30 am
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.


Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is  over 7k euro ...

If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.

I would put it the other way around in that it's no way to treat your customers!

What is the logic in the only the North Americans having the benefit of the RTB2K-COM4 package?

It's like sticking two fingers up to the rest of the world and I am not sure that it was anything to do with the distributors. I do not think all the other distributors in the rest of the world said "no we do not want the easy business".

I suspect it's R & S giving massive discount support to the US distributors and none for anyone else.

Not that I am bitter or anything.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2017, 08:51:36 am
Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

No, it's about how the cap is coupled to the PCB and how the vibrational waves work.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2017, 08:53:42 am
Dave, (off topic but...) in your experience did sorbothane live up to its hype and outperform other common vibration insulators? Or was it only marginally different in use?

It was worse than anti-static foam for the particular drop tests I did on them. (Low mass PCB).
Totally dependent upon the type and force of impact and the results needed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2017, 08:57:17 am
Could it be that you are observing an old and well known
effect called "Microphonics"? Components and cables are known to be
microphonic to a certain extent. Simply tap on a cable carrying a
unbalanced low level microphone signal and you will see what I mean.

On a cable it's called the triboelectirc effect and it is a different mechanism.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 30, 2017, 09:00:57 am
If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the
EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.

Maybe this (not well thought) strategy will rise R&S brand view at North America.
Rest of the world will remember this deal quite opposite I'm affraid.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2017, 09:02:34 am
I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector

No, as that would be the triboelectric effect which is a frictional based mechanism. Practically impossible for that be to be a problem on a BNC with a vibration coupling.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 30, 2017, 09:08:54 am
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.


Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is  over 7k euro ...

If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.

I would put it the other way around in that it's no way to treat your customers!

What is the logic in the only the North Americans having the benefit of the RTB2K-COM4 package?

It's like sticking two fingers up to the rest of the world and I am not sure that it was anything to do with the distributors. I do not think all the other distributors in the rest of the world said "no we do not want the easy business".

I suspect it's R & S giving massive discount support to the US distributors and none for anyone else.

Not that I am bitter or anything.

Countries outside of the US often gets the finger treatment :) on test gear prices.  Yes we pay duty + VAT - but due to less competition in EU the prices are a lot higher even taking duty and VAT into account.

So most of my company's gear is bought in the US. I refuse to pay 30-50% Tektronix EU tax (excl VAT/Duty) or similar over the US prices. If SRP excl. Duty & VAT was the same - I would buy locally. Keysight is getting better than it used to be. But I do always double check their US prices vs UK prices. There is no UK Import duty on Scopes - only VAT. 2nd hand prices are also not super in the EU. MicroLease things that 25-30% discount on SRP is great for a 2 year old device? Who pays that?

:)

/k
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 30, 2017, 10:32:28 am
Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected

My old Tek TDS2024 have been  beaten for 5 min and nothing.

knocking by hand did (alsmost) nothing. could see the perturbation but couldn't trigger it. knocking with stick/multimeter probe did that mess.
please note the verical sensitivity. The TPS is excellent for its purpose (separated, isolated channels) otherwise it's a scope with terrible performance. it's otrageous you still have to pay the same price for this old crap

AFAIR the TPS is a TDS but with an isolated frond end acquisition board - per channel - . i'd have to check the service manual but i think it has a differend board per channel
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 30, 2017, 11:00:15 am
If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the
EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.

Maybe this (not well thought) strategy will rise R&S brand view at North America.
Rest of the world will remember this deal quite opposite I'm affraid.

Absolutely..  What scope month has done for me, is Delete RS and Siglent from my list.    Dont' like their behaviour.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on March 30, 2017, 12:00:33 pm
I don't see the tap sensitivity as a huge issue. Yes, it can become a pain in the posterior when using the touch screen. Yes, you have to remember about it. But it will probably become a non-issue when working with low-impedance signal sources, and when full sensitivity and immunity to disturbances is required, another great advantage of RTB comes to the rescue: remote operation using nothing more than a web browser. When operated from a computer nobody needs to touch the scope. And none of the competitors (who are also sensitive to mechanical shocks) can beat it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 12:12:58 pm
True. That's why I'm again looking forward happily to the day it gets delivered! :D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2017, 01:47:06 pm
With a 50R terminator on the input the issue completely disappears - only a hard wack on the connector produces maybe 1 div, so looks like energy transer into a very early part of the input stage.
Even plugging in a standard 10:1 probe with its tip shorted reduces the issue very substantially.

Not for me.
It's still a potential issue even with a probe plugged in.
Even with a shorted x10  probe I still get 1-2mV with the poker tap on the screen. Not unexpected as the 9Mohm + low cable cap doesn't present much of a load.
Obviously it's going to be a complex interaction with the source impedance and cable used etc (which are now a "load" for the voltage impulse)
Yes it goes away with a shorted x1 probe (i.e. a low impedance source) but it's not right to say it's not a significant issue when you plug a probe in. I still see it. YMMV?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 30, 2017, 04:03:24 pm
Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected

My old Tek TDS2024 have been  beaten for 5 min and nothing.

knocking by hand did (alsmost) nothing. could see the perturbation but couldn't trigger it. knocking with stick/multimeter probe did that mess.
please note the verical sensitivity. The TPS is excellent for its purpose (separated, isolated channels) otherwise it's a scope with terrible performance. it's otrageous you still have to pay the same price for this old crap

AFAIR the TPS is a TDS but with an isolated frond end acquisition board - per channel - . i'd have to check the service manual but i think it has a differend board per channel
I've follow the Dave's procedure using mostly verticaly, hand, plastic pen, screwdriver even. Hitting at the top and bnc's causes nothing.
I must check with the probe. It's true that TDS is not a rocket science nowadays but it serve a lot of project in the past and always work.
R&S has been considered as a replacement for it but due to company/distriburors policy - I'm still looking.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 30, 2017, 04:19:33 pm
I got an email from a Rohde & Schwarz sales representative. Quote:
"Diese Aktion ist ein "Alleingang" der Kollegen in den USA - die hatten die "glorreiche" Idee, die neuen Scopes analog zu den amerikanischen Herstellern quasi zu verschenken.

Inzwischen sollte diese Promotion durch sein, weil man in unserem Stammhaus in München darauf aufmerksam wurde - ich glaube, die Reaktionen waren nicht allzu positiv.

Kurz und gut: eine solche Aktion gibt es in Europa nicht."

It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on March 30, 2017, 04:30:55 pm
It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

This makes me even more grateful to R&S USA for pulling this marketing stunt. And also curious how the clam of having a number of scopes allocated for each market stands to reality?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 30, 2017, 05:20:37 pm
It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

Instead saying:
Sorry for not treating our customers equaly. Everybody makes mistakes.
We want to be fair and offer equal therms to the rest of the world.

They say:
Nothing happens. We are still want to sell 7k osciloscope for those
who were not able to buy it for 2k because our unconscious policy.

And they still want to win with Asia manufactures which become better and better.

There is always fight between quality and price.
Is the R&S entry scope 3.5 or more times better than any Rigol or Siglent ?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 30, 2017, 05:34:51 pm
ok: Dave found a potential critical issue with the touchscreen microphonics. And now this problem has to be solved:

1. Mike has no problem with the touchscreen: Which different reason causes the different result? Maybe the protection foil? Could Dave check it also with a protection foil on the second device and compare? Could be a short-term solution.

2. Is there statement from R&S? Short-term solution and long-term solution (class 1 caps in sensitive circuits, ...)?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 07:03:42 pm
Even with a shorted x10  probe I still get 1-2mV with the poker tap on the screen. Not unexpected as the 9Mohm + low cable cap doesn't present much of a load.

Ok, so potentially more serious with x100 probe. But what occurred to me is that at least some scopes with "russian trigger" have self-calibration feature, which is done with unloaded connectors and takes long time. Dunno if R&S has such procedure? If does maybe should attach sticker asking not fire machine guns and have other kinds of fun near scope under calibration? Or even put it in sealed nuclear-proof bunker during procedure?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nfmax on March 30, 2017, 07:05:36 pm
And, of course, always the possibility that Dave has a faulty unit...

Might be a bad batch of MLCC's? I hate the things!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 30, 2017, 07:17:56 pm
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2017, 07:19:42 pm
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 30, 2017, 07:38:03 pm
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.

I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2017, 07:39:51 pm
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.

I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look
Opinion ?
The evidence is in several threads.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 07:46:54 pm
Even with a shorted x10  probe I still get 1-2mV with the poker tap on the screen. Not unexpected as the 9Mohm + low cable cap doesn't present much of a load.

Ok, so potentially more serious with x100 probe. But what occurred to me is that at least some scopes with "russian trigger" have self-calibration feature, which is done with unloaded connectors and takes long time. Dunno if R&S has such procedure? If does maybe should attach sticker asking not fire machine guns and have other kinds of fun near scope under calibration? Or even put it in sealed nuclear-proof bunker during procedure?
I would hope that cal inputs are switched in from a low impedance source.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 07:54:43 pm
I would hope that cal inputs are switched in from a low impedance source.

I seem to remember that people have gotten messed up autocal from DS1000Z, no? I got pretty good autocal, but did leave it completely alone in peace & quiet + switched off all other nearby devices that could produce EMI. So dunno, just an idea what to check for.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 07:55:23 pm
It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

This makes me even more grateful to R&S USA for pulling this marketing stunt. And also curious how the clam of having a number of scopes allocated for each market stands to reality?
There are promos in Europe, just not as good.
The advertised offer of £4785 at Farnell was free options with the 300MHz MSO+AWG version, and when pressed they have quoted £3175, which is about half list price, just not as good as the US one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 30, 2017, 07:57:41 pm
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.

I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look
Opinion ?
The evidence is in several threads.

I dont' care if its fact or opinion.  I find it very bad form when a reseller of one brand starts bad mouthing another.  Your 'facts' are coloured by a desire to sell your product.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 08:06:11 pm
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.
What PSU problems exactly?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 30, 2017, 08:07:30 pm
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.
Well at least I can fix a PSU myself. Bugs in firmware however...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 30, 2017, 08:10:31 pm
Can get a new psu.  And theres every good chance i can fix one too.    WHat i can't fix is a scope that never materialised, or a scope that was $2000 and then became $7000 just becuase i live in teh wrong part of the planet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 30, 2017, 08:11:35 pm
I seem to remember that people have gotten messed up autocal from DS1000Z, no?

No.

(apart from one guy who had a defective scope)
Title: Re: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: skench on March 30, 2017, 09:52:47 pm

Just a reminder that the $2080 promo package deal on the RTB2004 *is* still going on at Newark, but apparently they can only sell into the USA market.  They have a pricing mixup with their system though.  I exchanged some PMs today with a fellow buying one and Rich from R&S.  The website shows $2080 here

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

But when you put it in your cart the number may flip to the $7900 (or $8600 I just learned) list price for the package.  Or it may show the correct price in the cart and $8600 then show up in the email confirm.  The system is grabbing from a database that doesn't have the promo pricing now that the deal is over at the other two US distributors.  Rich says you have to call into Newark's sales department and talk to them to get it priced correctly, until they can get the database thing worked out.


I ordered one from Newark yesterday, and as predicted, the email confirmation came back today with a total of $7920 (no sales tax here).

After a bit of time on the phone with a confused Newark customer service rep, the order was cancelled/replaced and a confirmation came back with the correct price.
He stated that they had these in stock; shipping date is supposed to be tomorrow.

Hi Corax,

Can you confirm that this is the RTB2K-COM4 promo package because the description on the Newark page does not include all the extra options?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 30, 2017, 10:17:39 pm
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.
I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look
Opinion ?
The evidence is in several threads
.

In two consecutive posts, you have made claims regarding Keysight quality without providing any references or facts. I agree with Mrpackethead that this is bad style, in particular given the fact that you are a dealer for a competing brand.

Even if you can give a link to some thread, that would be anecdotal evidence at best. But just claiming that some problem exists looks like an obvious attempt to spread FUD, and won't help your reputation.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2017, 10:18:48 pm
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.
What PSU problems exactly?
These and others linked in the thread:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 30, 2017, 10:23:08 pm
These and others linked in the thread:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/)

The 2 you linked in are not PSU problems!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2017, 10:54:08 pm
These and others linked in the thread:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/)

The 2 you linked in are not PSU problems!
True, my oversight, only the first one was related to PSU failure.  :palm:
 
As some might seem a little touchy about having some of their other problems pointed out I'll let you find them yourselves in the links provided.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rsjsouza on March 30, 2017, 11:02:59 pm
Regarding the percussive effect, please let me know if I am missing something, but I couldn't issue a trigBeatTM to my DS4014.

https://youtu.be/jPRe2YsNcRo
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 30, 2017, 11:37:42 pm
Try hitting harder with a larger object
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MJF on March 31, 2017, 12:08:20 am
Please set input impedance from 50 Ohm to 1 MOhm and repeat...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kcbrown on March 31, 2017, 01:04:16 am
As some might seem a little touchy about having some of their other problems pointed out I'll let you find them yourselves in the links provided.

"Go find the evidence supporting my claim yourself" isn't exactly the way to bolster your claims, even when you provide hints as to where the evidence can be found.   They're your claims, so it's on you to support them.  If there are messages which support your claim, you can provide links to them directly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on March 31, 2017, 02:13:18 am
OK. I'll bite..... but I cannot get my hands on one due to the distributor restrictions not selling outside of the US (and I thought this would be over).

Is there anybody here from the US who would be willing to order it for me? Preferrably a company so sales tax would not apply for me. I will keep care of the shipping (DHL pickup) and pay all other costs of course and will add some premium for your help. Any details with payment etc. should be discussed in private, so please PM me. Please only reputable forum members with a history.
Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on March 31, 2017, 02:20:30 am
Is there anybody here from the US who would be willing to order it for me?

I would but all my money is tied up helping a nigerian prince at the moment  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 31, 2017, 02:21:44 am
As some might seem a little touchy about having some of their other problems pointed out I'll let you find them yourselves in the links provided.

"Go find the evidence supporting my claim yourself" isn't exactly the way to bolster your claims, even when you provide hints as to where the evidence can be found.   They're your claims, so it's on you to support them.  If there are messages which support your claim, you can provide links to them directly.
Editing out the part of his message which provided links is REALLY sleazy behaviour.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rsjsouza on March 31, 2017, 02:37:53 am
Please set input impedance from 50 Ohm to 1 MOhm and repeat...
I somehow had the impression he was using 50 \$\Omega\$ all around. I will retest later today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 31, 2017, 02:48:01 am
Why bother ordering a device with such major design flaws? Check the recent video from Dave!

OK. I'll bite..... but I cannot get my hands on one due to the distributor restrictions not selling outside of the US (and I thought this would be over).

Is there anybody here from the US who would be willing to order it for me? Preferrably a company so sales tax would not apply for me. I will keep care of the shipping (DHL pickup) and pay all other costs of course and will add some premium for your help. Any details with payment etc. should be discussed in private, so please PM me. Please only reputable forum members with a history.
Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 31, 2017, 02:52:28 am
Please set input impedance from 50 Ohm to 1 MOhm and repeat...
I somehow had the impression he was using 50 \$\Omega\$ all around. I will retest later today or tomorrow.
RTB2000 does not have 50 ohm input option
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JanJansen on March 31, 2017, 02:55:08 am
First you set the settings, then you measure, you dont measure while you use the touch screen, or am i wrong ?
You can touch the screen a bit softer also, does the clicking switches also trigger the noise ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 31, 2017, 03:01:53 am
Why bother ordering a device with such major design flaws? Check the recent video from Dave!
Because the US deal is still a fantastic deal, and unless you want to probe very low level signals with a high impedance probe while wacking the scope it's just not a problem in practice.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 31, 2017, 03:10:34 am
Can someone summarize the US deal, in terms of pricing and features? When does it end?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on March 31, 2017, 03:18:51 am
Can someone summarize the US deal, in terms of pricing and features? When does it end?

Fully loaded RTB2004 for $2080. Seems to be still available at Newark.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 31, 2017, 03:26:48 am
First you set the settings, then you measure, you dont measure while you use the touch screen, or am i wrong ?
You can touch the screen a bit softer also, does the clicking switches also trigger the noise ?
It can be a problem if you look at a signal (zoom in, scroll, enable measurement) with the scope in run mode. You might create a trigger and erase the measurement you made. Basically the sensitivity to tapping forces you to use single trigger mode / switch between run & stop mode in cases where it shouldn't be really necessary.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bitwelder on March 31, 2017, 03:46:43 am
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.

Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Where's the new Rigol?  ;D
Title: Newark
Post by: agdr on March 31, 2017, 04:10:32 am
Looks like the stock mix at Newark has changed a bit.  Lol, you have to love really large companies with multiple departments all responsible for little bits and pieces of things.  :)  (screen grab attached)

So it used to say something like 50 in stock available for shipment 3/30/17, which is today of course.  Now we have 19 available for immediate shipment, with 30 more able to ship 3/30/17 (today).  So 50 became 49 total?  Must be Corex' unit. :D  Going to be 48 in a minute, I'm going to buy yet another one of these things so I can actually get my hands on one, the others won't ship till May. 

And IF I can actually get my hands on one I'll do ci11's test.  Just bought a variable audio oscillator good for very low THD at 1Hz - 100KHz at 200uV.  I'm really really curious how this scope does with the low level audio signals.

I would 100% agree with a comment a few posts back, not nearly enough audio people involved in the design of scopes!  8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 31, 2017, 04:15:12 am
You made it: 18
Title: Re: Newark
Post by: ci11 on March 31, 2017, 04:20:42 am

Just bought a variable audio oscillator good for very low THD at 1Hz - 100KHz at 200uV.


Wow - congratulations! Which audio oscillator did you get with them hubba hubba specs?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Petter on March 31, 2017, 05:14:24 am
What happens if you measure the resonant frequency/frequencies?

An electrical input problem is much more of a showstopper than the still annoying mechanical intolerance of the unit.
Title: Re: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: corax on March 31, 2017, 05:25:36 am

Hi Corax,

Can you confirm that this is the RTB2K-COM4 promo package because the description on the Newark page does not include all the extra options?

Yes, it's the RTB2K-COM4 package.  Here's a screenshot of the confirmation email I got back.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on March 31, 2017, 05:45:17 am
Cheers Corax.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 31, 2017, 06:44:02 am
You saved $5840.00 - gotta love that!
If there are some units available I hope forums users in US/Canada jump on them quick.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElectronMan on March 31, 2017, 07:23:24 am
It turns out that this bundle is cheaper than paying for the embedded app bundle for my 3000T series. So get a nice scope + decode options I need, or spend more for just the decode options. What to do, what to do...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kcbrown on March 31, 2017, 07:25:34 am
As some might seem a little touchy about having some of their other problems pointed out I'll let you find them yourselves in the links provided.

"Go find the evidence supporting my claim yourself" isn't exactly the way to bolster your claims, even when you provide hints as to where the evidence can be found.   They're your claims, so it's on you to support them.  If there are messages which support your claim, you can provide links to them directly.
Editing out the part of his message which provided links is REALLY sleazy behaviour.

He provided a link to a thread, not links to individual messages.   A thread can contain all sorts of things (look at the one we're having this discussion in for one example).

I should have examined the thread before commenting.  It turns out to be a different one than the one I thought.  That's what I get for waking up too early in the morning.  :(

Sorry, Tautech.   My apologies.  Carry on! 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on March 31, 2017, 07:29:25 am

It can be a problem if you look at a signal (zoom in, scroll, enable measurement) with the scope in run mode. You might create a trigger and erase the measurement you made. Basically the sensitivity to tapping forces you to use single trigger mode / switch between run & stop mode in cases where it shouldn't be really necessary.

Potentially this issue could be fixed in firmware (partially at least).  I can see two possibilities:

1) If the screen digitizer is sensitive enough (many are)  it could detect an imminent touch (before physical contact is made) and disable the trigger for the duration of the touch.

2) Alternatively they could implement a double buffer mode that stores the last triggered event momentarily and won't actually display it unless no touch is detected.  This would add some lag to the measurement but it would prevent accidental triggering when using the touch screen.

Either method would preferably be toggleable.  You would only need to enable it for high sensitivity measurements.  Now, whether R&S considers the problem big enough to implement such solutions is another question.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on March 31, 2017, 07:54:53 am
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.

*Brian
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 31, 2017, 08:00:01 am
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.

*Briani

Mind sharing your order date? I'm roughly 15 minute drive from them so likely take a couple days once they ship mine.  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on March 31, 2017, 08:11:50 am
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.

*Briani

Mind sharing your order date? I'm roughly 15 minute drive from them so likely take a couple days once they ship mine.  :-//

Sales order date is 3/16. However, I actually placed my order at about 10:30 PM on the 15th after seeing Mike's 7:42 PM tweet. Was able to do it entirely from bed on the smart phone by moving some money around to my PayPal accounts without the wife ever knowing . . .
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 31, 2017, 08:29:22 am
Interesting, my order date is 03/15/2017 and I did not get a shipping notification yet.
But to be fair the expected shipping date is tomorrow (03/31/2017) so let's see if they keep their promise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 31, 2017, 08:30:03 am
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.

*Briani

Mind sharing your order date? I'm roughly 15 minute drive from them so likely take a couple days once they ship mine.  :-//

Sales order date is 3/16. However, I actually placed my order at about 10:30 PM on the 15th after seeing Mike's 7:42 PM tweet. Was able to do it entirely from bed on the smart phone by moving some money around to my PayPal accounts without the wife ever knowing . . .

Interesting, similar here. Ordered 15th around 5-6pm got a 16th order date. Maybe an hour or two earlier considering time zone differences. Knowing California I'll likely be a may/june ship date, haha.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 31, 2017, 08:34:07 am
I'm in a similar boat. Ordered around 1:30pm on 15th, ship date of the 31st and no notifications yet. Haven't been charged yet either.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: oh2hyt on March 31, 2017, 08:39:14 am
As has been said, the EU deal for 5500e + tax is again on Farnell (was missing few days) and also on Elfa now.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 31, 2017, 11:07:12 am
The EU deal doesn't seem to match the US deal at all.

How to get the US deal in Europe? :)

As has been said, the EU deal for 5500e + tax is again on Farnell (was missing few days) and also on Elfa now.

Can someone summarize the US deal, in terms of pricing and features? When does it end?

Fully loaded RTB2004 for $2080. Seems to be still available at Newark.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 31, 2017, 11:20:27 am
The EU deal doesn't seem to match the US deal at all.
How to get the US deal in Europe? :)
You can't ( as far as anyone has ascertained to date).
Only way is to use a reshipper that a US dealer doesn't know is a reshipper, and not-obviously-overseas contact details.

Does anyone have anything to report yet on reshippers ? I know someone in the UK who has only had one of his two attempts at US orders refused so far, but not shipped yet.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gslick on March 31, 2017, 11:22:37 am
It turns out that this bundle is cheaper than paying for the embedded app bundle for my 3000T series. So get a nice scope + decode options I need, or spend more for just the decode options. What to do, what to do...

Or if you want a 100Mbit network interface for an InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series, consider paying $400 for a DSOXLAN module, or for $1600 more get a whole loaded RTB2004 with built-in 1Gbit network interface...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 31, 2017, 12:45:13 pm
I'm in a similar boat. Ordered around 1:30pm on 15th, ship date of the 31st and no notifications yet. Haven't been charged yet either.

I have a 3/16 order date and a 4/28 ship date, so don't complain.  I thinking about canceling and ordering from Newark, if there would be some confirmation that it is the same deal.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 31, 2017, 01:46:08 pm
Just got shipping info from testequity. Shipped today and should be delivered tomorrow. Here's hoping.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rsjsouza on March 31, 2017, 02:14:18 pm
Well, second attempt to bang the crap out of my DS4014... :)
https://youtu.be/HWTdQnVK8nY
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 31, 2017, 02:20:40 pm
FYI: I also got the shipping notice. Ordered on 3/15/17, shipped 3/30/17 and should be delivered to Orlando, FL on 4/5/17.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 31, 2017, 02:22:50 pm
Oh I'm not complaining, just adding my data point to the pile.

Got a shipping notification an hour ago for a Monday delivery date, unfortunately I'll be gone camping. #LifeIsHard  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: luisprata on March 31, 2017, 02:28:43 pm
Para os brasileiros do forum...

DSO-X 2004 results...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzqNbw3eBKo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzqNbw3eBKo)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 31, 2017, 04:20:24 pm
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.

Jealous.....   still don't have my date from Testequity. 
Yeah I think I also got next-day order date from ordering....  as this is my first purchase from it, seems like the online ordering is not 100% .. its like it got processed to paper orders at later time, since I got like a whole confirmation and new customer packet stuff.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 31, 2017, 07:51:02 pm
If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.

Yeah, I'll just pop by the local office and ask if I can have one to play with for a couple of months.

(seriously, in what part of the world does that work?)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 31, 2017, 08:25:47 pm
Actually in my case (capital city area) Keysight's main distributor Testhouse Nordic is more than willing to come and hep me choose the right instrument and even send someone around to demo it, but you also need to have sincere buying intentions. I think a day or a couple of days loaning is doable but it sure is easier if you're a company who is asking for it.

You may sometimes have to wait until a unit is available but they certainly don't show you the door.

I don't know if they would do it for a bottom range scope though.

But yeah, I imagine it's pretty difficult if you don't live near a distributor.

As for the RTB2004, they simply don't have it available yet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 31, 2017, 08:29:21 pm
If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.

Yeah, I'll just pop by the local office and ask if I can have one to play with for a couple of months.

(seriously, in what part of the world does that work?)
Ofcourse you can't have it for a couple of months but a couple of weeks shouldn't be a problem (if it is: walk away). OTOH the last time I got a Lecroy quoted the payment term was 90 days or return it. You simply cannot be expected to spend several $k blindly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 31, 2017, 11:30:02 pm

It can be a problem if you look at a signal (zoom in, scroll, enable measurement) with the scope in run mode. You might create a trigger and erase the measurement you made. Basically the sensitivity to tapping forces you to use single trigger mode / switch between run & stop mode in cases where it shouldn't be really necessary.

Potentially this issue could be fixed in firmware (partially at least).  I can see two possibilities:

1) If the screen digitizer is sensitive enough (many are)  it could detect an imminent touch (before physical contact is made) and disable the trigger for the duration of the touch.

2) Alternatively they could implement a double buffer mode that stores the last triggered event momentarily and won't actually display it unless no touch is detected.  This would add some lag to the measurement but it would prevent accidental triggering when using the touch screen.

Either method would preferably be toggleable.  You would only need to enable it for high sensitivity measurements.  Now, whether R&S considers the problem big enough to implement such solutions is another question.


I think Dave got a broken device ...

1) this is weird ... you can´t bypass microphonics by disabling the trigger while you´re touching. This would lead to permanent stopping of acquisition when you e.g.
just want to add a measurement. For setting scales or position its absolutely OK to stop the acquisition, rescale previous ACQs and restart after setting the hardware.
But for everything else doing the same?? This will lead to a chopped up UI feeling and makes the scope feels more sluggish.

2) sounds like a segmented mode with discarding all acquisitions done while touch was detected ...   :bullshit:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KrzysztofB on April 01, 2017, 01:15:51 am
Tried to get hit-a-trigger on Tektronix DPO3034. Well, was possible, but no one is treating scope that bad. Gentle taps, not a chance.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on April 01, 2017, 01:54:23 am

I think Dave got a broken device ...

Possibly. His seems to be a little more sensitive than what Mike is reporting.  Time will tell I guess.


1) this is weird ... you can´t bypass microphonics by disabling the trigger while you´re touching. This would lead to permanent stopping of acquisition when you e.g.
just want to add a measurement. For setting scales or position its absolutely OK to stop the acquisition, rescale previous ACQs and restart after setting the hardware.
But for everything else doing the same?? This will lead to a chopped up UI feeling and makes the scope feels more sluggish.

I didn't say it would bypass microphonics.  I was replying to nctnico who noted this effect could cause inadvertent triggering while examining a trace.  I was just noting it is conceivable a fix for this could be implemented in software by trying to disable triggering during a touch event (basically an auto run/stop on touch).   It would be clunky for for sure (and possibly impossible depending on the digitizer) and definitely not something you would want to be running all the time but it could be a way to mitigate the problem without having to do a complete hardware re-design.  (You really could just do it manually by hitting the run/stop  yourself before using the touch screen but that would be even more annoying IMHO)

2) sounds like a segmented mode with discarding all acquisitions done while touch was detected ...   :bullshit:

Yes, essentially that would be it.    Being able to correlate touch events with segmented memory shouldn't be too hard (although I admit it may induce unacceptable amounts of lag) . And yes, it could lead to a sparse history but I'm not sure that would be a huge issue (I'm sure somebody will correct me on this...).    Of course it would be need to be a configurable mode as well.  And I was just noting this is a possible software solution (bandaid) to a possible hardware issue.

I guess what it comes done to is how often are you going to be tapping on the screen and wanting to use the data collected at that exact moment . Generally I think you would use the screen to set something up then you take the measurement (so spurious microphonic induced signals during screen taping aren't the end of the world).  One exception to this I can think of is setting trigger levels. Doing that on the screen while generating spurious noise would indeed be a royal pain. There is a separate trigger level knob though so that should suffice.  I guess doing persistence measurements could be problematic as well (but again could be handled by option 2 above).  I'm sure there are others.





Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: slurry on April 01, 2017, 02:04:57 am
I managed to fiddle around with a RTB2004 today, i did not have a chance to tap on it before it hanged and presented some garble on the display  :palm:
..but it's an early firmware, R&S customers are supposed to just sit down and patiently wait for a stable FW  :popcorn:

After a reboot i was able to enjoy the scope, the screen makes it a joy to use, pinch, swipe and select functions, pure fun!

The screenshot are (default) in BMP and due to the resolution the size is 3091kB on the USB-stick, also the savetime is a few seconds, due to the size of course.
(attached pictures are saved in JPG but still 1280x824 24bit)

(http://iloapp.qrg.se/data/_gallery/public/0/149097253519317900_resized.jpg)

(http://iloapp.qrg.se/data/_gallery/public/0/149097253568806400_resized.jpg)

(http://iloapp.qrg.se/data/_gallery/public/0/149097253546939100_resized.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 01, 2017, 02:17:34 am
I managed to fiddle around with a RTB2004 today, i did not have a chance to tap on it before it hanged and presented some garble on the display  :palm:
..but it's an early firmware, R&S customers are supposed to just sit down and patiently wait for a stable FW  :popcorn:
Apart from the minor bugs I found & mentioned in the video, and the low-speed update thing Dave found, I've only seen one 'crashy' type issue, where the touchscreen stopped working and needed a powercycle to restore. This was very soon after I got it and wasn't at all familiar with it.  I've been using it as my main scope for a few days now & haven't seen anything else yet. 
Considering the amount of stuff in this scope, I think they're doing pretty well bug-wise. What's more important is how the deal with issues - they acknowledged most of my bugs and suggestions pretty much straight away, though I wouldn't be surprised if they hold off a little before doing an update until there are a few more scopes out there to shake out any more initial bugs.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 01, 2017, 02:20:46 am
Cool where did you find a unit? Or are you a happy receiver of one of the first units? Still I'm waiting for mine: due next week
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on April 01, 2017, 03:02:24 am
If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.

Yeah, I'll just pop by the local office and ask if I can have one to play with for a couple of months.

(seriously, in what part of the world does that work?)
Ofcourse you can't have it for a couple of months but a couple of weeks shouldn't be a problem (if it is: walk away). OTOH the last time I got a Lecroy quoted the payment term was 90 days or return it. You simply cannot be expected to spend several $k blindly.

Oh, I see. The 'pay for it then take it back' type of "loan".  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 01, 2017, 03:05:14 am
You are reading it wrong: payment after 90 days or return means you can evaluate it for 90 days before paying  :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: slurry on April 01, 2017, 03:20:15 am
Be aware that when, and if, you buy a ex-DEMO unit it will have a K0 demo option installed which will have been expired.


I forgot, there is some interesting TV-triggers not seen in older scopes..  ^-^

(http://iloapp.qrg.se/data/_gallery/public/0/149097696236264400_resized.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kcbrown on April 01, 2017, 03:22:18 am
You are reading it wrong: payment after 90 days or return means you can evaluate it for 90 days before paying  :palm: