new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[Pinkus]

Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
· Almost any reviewer showed that they needed several trys until they could move a waveform on the screen (if more than one was shown).
· It also was often visible that a press on a button (touch = on the screen) often did not work and needed a 2nd or 3rd try.
· The screen is glossy. In my case such a scope is always located above my eyes - I would see reflections all the time.
· Immediately the screen is full of smear and fingerprints

I am sure this is not a bad scope. It shows some nice ideas and I am glad it is there, as: the more competitors, the better the products and the lower the price after some time.

Now, if somebody finds out how to hack the economy 70 Mhz version (still 1900 Euro + VAT) to a fully optioned 300 Mhz version, then this will be a nice deal for many people (though still not for the Rigol DS1074Z buyers who are on a 500 Euro budget).

[Howardlong]

Just curious, it would be disappointing if there is no runt trigger.

Without wishing to derail the thread (too much), I'm curious as to how often practically speaking these days you would actually use a runt trigger?

Back in the days of shared parallel busses, had I had a scope with runt trigger capability that would certainly have been of use, but nowadays, not so much unless you're into DDR, although I'm not sure how much use a 300MHz scope is for DDR nowadays!

[irakandjii]

Just curious, it would be disappointing if there is no runt trigger.

Without wishing to derail the thread (too much), I'm curious as to how often practically speaking these days you would actually use a runt trigger?

Back in the days of shared parallel busses, had I had a scope with runt trigger capability that would certainly have been of use, but nowadays, not so much unless you're into DDR, although I'm not sure how much use a 300MHz scope is for DDR nowadays!

Most often on analog decodes with serial busses where there are random infrequent problems with the connection. These just show up as false lows on the digital side.  Like anything else, it is a tool and has its uses and infrequent use does not invalidate its need.   

I find it odd that it is important enough to search on, but not trigger.

[vokars]

Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series.

Hm.. Keysight 3000 series is actually an 8bit scope and the RTB2000 series is a 10bit scope. literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/75019-97073.pdf p.173 explains, that the Keysight DSOX3000 is limited to 5usec/div for 10Bit vertical resolution in High Resolution Mode. 

In general boxcar reduces samplerate by a factor 4 per 1 bit less quantization noise.

But actually for a good comparison of vertical resolution for both devices we need the ENOB. Does anybody know that?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Found some serial boot text. Nothing exciting. appears about half a sec after powerup.

Code: [Select]

U-Boot SPL 2013.01.01 (Oct 06 2016 - 16:39:22)
BOARD : Altera SOCFPGA Cyclone V Board
CLOCK: EOSC1 clock 50000 KHz
CLOCK: EOSC2 clock 50000 KHz
CLOCK: F2S_SDR_REF clock 0 KHz
CLOCK: F2S_PER_REF clock 0 KHz
CLOCK: MPU clock 925 MHz
CLOCK: DDR clock 400 MHz
CLOCK: UART clock 100000 KHz
CLOCK: MMC clock 62500 KHz
CLOCK: QSPI clock 3613 KHz
RESET: WARM
SDRAM: Initializing MMR registers
SDRAM: Calibrating PHY
SEQ.C: Preparing to start memory calibration
SEQ.C: CALIBRATION PASSED
SDRAM: 512 MiB
NAND:  Denali NAND controller
[/quote]


[Lukas]

Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.

This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.

[cubsfan]

Found this on Newark's site, so I called.  They have a bunch on backorder.

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=RTB2k-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false

[maginnovision]

Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.

This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.

I actually wonder if that was intended, and if not if it could be fixed. The touchscreen stopped updates, ethernet they slowed, knobs looked normal. Seems odd but may be a limitation with the way they're using the FPGA based SOC.

[Neganur]

Well, I haven't seen enough to get an impression of the responsiveness. Most of that pinch zoom etc "look mom it's a smart phone" that Watt Circuit did was pretty useless anyway.

Most of the time when I used a touch screen scope I use the touch for direct entry on numbers, quick menu access or maybe drag the cursors (zone trigger is actually nice). Most of the time you happen to do something you didn't want to do, like drag a waveform and change the horizontal delay by accident.

Sure the Keysight is fast. But even there it isn't exactly smooth to use fingers to move a trace. Would typically still use a knob to change horizontal or direct entry to adjust offset anyway.

I'm still hoping that Dave comes with a review as well, he and Mike are really good at doing different things with the scope and present it in a really useful way unlike many other review that were more unboxing and repeating the banner advertisement.

[agdr]

Found this on Newark's site, so I called.  They have a bunch on backorder.

That does look like a possible second chance coming up for the folks who missed out on this round! Makes sense, Newark wouldn't want to be eclipsed by the other 2 US distributors.

Maybe that explains the 5 week lead time on the more recent orders.  Some stock on hand went to Newark when they decided they wanted to play.

[vokars]

Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.

This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.

Hm .. difficult to estimate the responsiveness from videos. As well as to estimate if a device is too loud or annoying due to its long boot time which is the downside of higher mcu-power.

But Mike already has a device for testing. He worte: "UI more sluggish than Keysight, but don't think too annoying - time will tell."

As I understand that: No showstopper for Mike. But because responsiveness of course is also an subjective issue we all probabely expect Dave' review too

[mikeselectricstuff]

Impression so far re. UI responsiveness - in many respects it is slower than the Keysight,  but if I wasn't used to that scope, I don't think I'd find it too annoying. The more important stuff like sliding waveforms is pretty good - pinch gestures and other things that cause mode changes are a little slower.
Nothing seems to get slower depending on acquisition memory size - I've not figured out exactly how "auto" memory size behaves, but a full-memory acquisition with serial decode, and touch-scrolling along the zoomed view  doesn't seem to be any problem at all.
Menus etc. could be a little more snappy, but you're never consciously waiting for anything to happen 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Protocol & bus decode, and a few minor bugs

[kaz911]

Thanks Mike,

I wonder if R&S will pay a bug finder fee per bug - then you are in for a good monthly salary - not that any of the bugs was really serious. Which firmware version is yours?

but thanks again

[ElectronMan]

Thanks Mike,

I wonder if R&S will pay a bug finder fee per bug - then you are in for a good monthly salary - not that any of the bugs was really serious. Which firmware version is yours?

but thanks again

Assuming that is how it works. I know that when I am working with any piece of hardware/software, I don't find bugs.... bugs find me.

[Lukas]

People seem to forget that adding a capacitive touch screen to their products evokes a slew of expectations from potential users. When operating a device with a touch screen I expect it to behave as responsive as a tablet - heck, even really cheap tablets manage to do non-skippy scrolling. Since a touch screen provides no haptic feedback, some instant feedback when touching something on screen is of great importance. By instant I really mean instant - the very moment the finger hits the screen. Shouldn't be that hard...

[maginnovision]

People seem to forget that adding a capacitive touch screen to their products evokes a slew of expectations from potential users. When operating a device with a touch screen I expect it to behave as responsive as a tablet - heck, even really cheap tablets manage to do non-skippy scrolling. Since a touch screen provides no haptic feedback, some instant feedback when touching something on screen is of great importance. By instant I really mean instant - the very moment the finger hits the screen. Shouldn't be that hard...

I'm not so sure. Even my Galaxy 6 isn't instant. Obviously everything has latency but it's about how much. Mikes video makes it look plenty responsive but if your requirement is that it's imperceivable then you definitely don't want it. Even the keysight videos of the 4000x scopes don't look instant, also not 100% error-proof either. Never used either scope though so just going off videos.

[Lukas]

Sure, my dated Galaxy Nexus isn't instant as well, but when I touch a menu item, I usually get instant feedback that I touched it and scrolling doesn't lag. I've played with the RTB2000 and some of the keysight scopes at embedded world and the keysight scopes were way more smooth to operate.

[vokars]

I am basically unhappy with 8 bit DSOs. I don't like too much noise in my measurement device when I want to see how much noise my circuit has.

Therefore I consider the RTB2000 as a milestone. I hope that we see further improvements in this direction also from other vendors.

[maginnovision]

Sure, my dated Galaxy Nexus isn't instant as well, but when I touch a menu item, I usually get instant feedback that I touched it and scrolling doesn't lag. I've played with the RTB2000 and some of the keysight scopes at embedded world and the keysight scopes were way more smooth to operate.

Yea, keysight seems to be more or less the gold standard for scope interfacing right now. Responsive, clean, and smooth. However, the price matches and you don't always get higher measurable specs for the money. From what I've seen though they stick to 10 divs horizontal and even the 4000x series scope still have an 800x600 resolution screen. Like anything scopes have alot of give and take and you're usually best off waiting as long as you can because things just get better.

[technogeeky]

Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
· Almost any reviewer showed that they needed several trys until they could move a waveform on the screen (if more than one was shown).
· It also was often visible that a press on a button (touch = on the screen) often did not work and needed a 2nd or 3rd try.
· The screen is glossy. In my case such a scope is always located above my eyes - I would see reflections all the time.
· Immediately the screen is full of smear and fingerprints

I am sure this is not a bad scope. It shows some nice ideas and I am glad it is there, as: the more competitors, the better the products and the lower the price after some time.

Now, if somebody finds out how to hack the economy 70 Mhz version (still 1900 Euro + VAT) to a fully optioned 300 Mhz version, then this will be a nice deal for many people (though still not for the Rigol DS1074Z buyers who are on a 500 Euro budget).

I just watched the whole 50 freakin' minutes of mike's video on R&S serial decoding. While the touchscreen-waveform control portions might be a bit laggy, the overall performance seems excellent to me. The features are excellent. The UI is incredible; it's very smart and versatile.

The shiny screen thing I suppose is a problem if your preference disagrees with this configuration. I do know that some of the matte UV protective and glare-free options have problems with chemicals e.g. acetone, but I suspect this is probably just a price decision.

[TheSteve]

Watched Mike's serial decode vid. At the $2080.00 promo pricing for US/Canada(which is over) the scope seems like a bargain, at retail price it doesn't do too much for me. I do like how much thought has been put into using the LCD resolution.

[ElectronMan]

Watched Mike's serial decode vid. At the $2080.00 promo pricing for US/Canada(which is over) the scope seems like a bargain, at retail price it doesn't do too much for me. I do like how much thought has been put into using the LCD resolution.

I was thinking the same thing until I remembered that the serial decode options I was salivating over don't come with it at that price.

I do like the R&S serial decode a lot more than that on my Keysight scope though. Especially with the higher resolution and clever resizing of the decoded data.

[norks]

Mike, huuuuge thanks for your tireless work getting these videos filmed, edited, and posted! I've been in the market for a first scope for about a year. I feel very fortunate to have been paying attention when this one came out with such an aggressive offer which seemed uncharacteristic of a top brand. It stretched my budget for sure but I jumped on it and am eagerly awaiting delivery (it's gonna be a long month). In the meantime I'm starving for deep content on real world use. Can't wait for the next vid!

[JoHr]

I´ve seen both scopes on the Embedded World. And thats a kind of personal preference. I didn´t like the capability to touch the channel position or trigger marker on the KS3000&4000. With normal hands, hope i got some, it is already difficult to grab them at the left side of the display. So the way to splitt that to both sides of the display and positioning the channel inside the window in addition, like R&S is doing, is a much better opportunity.

The other responsiveness equals the same on a key menu or numeric input.
All in all both are pretty equal on the UI.

But R&S is more courageous in trying to give some new opportunities in how to handle devices.
Especially the resizable windows are awesome when used on the serial dcode or FFT, instead of painful permanently navigating the menus to switch table on/off.
This are things i´ve been missing on other vendors the last years. And this is not only a matter of KS.

So time will tell if there are things that pushes through.