new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[2N3055]

*On my soapbox*
Waste of time for me to reply to you on this, but you don't have any clue what you are talking about.  R&S has been in business longer than any of the brands you mention above, even HP.  The RTB2000 is a R&S product through and through - using R&S designed ASICs, new SW, etc.  Is the Hameg team involved?  Yep.  But they made great scopes before and now they have the full benefit of the R&S legacy to work with (not to mention groups from both teams worked on this, including people that have designed some of the highest performing RF gear in the world). 

And to your point about Rigol/Siglent/GW/Hantek/whomever - I have no problems with them.  But they aren't innovators.  You might complain that we (Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S) charge a lot for our options, but that helps to fund true product innovation.  R&S was the first company to bring 1M wfms/s to market, the first with a digital trigger, the first with a reasonably priced 10-bit ADC, the first with graticule markings, etc, etc.  I could go on and on for Tek/Keysight/LeCroy too.  All have had many firsts (where you do you think your serial decode and triggering came from - not the "B Brands").  Eventually those things may be copied by the "B Brands" and people will benefit when they buy them at cheap prices.  But don't confuse copying with true product innovation (and I'll admit - price engineering is an innovation, but it would be a sad day if that was the only place people innovated - you'd never see anything new).

So keep trolling the Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S threads 

*Off my soapbox.*

-Rich

Rich,

I appreciate your candor, although I'm sure many will find it arrogant.... But it does show exactly what I have problem with: apparently there exist premium brands club that seems to think they are above the market rules.... You seem to confuse certain terms, and also what you are talking about... Big brands are comparing products between themselves, position them on market, and do all kinds of strategic things in their fight for market position... So some of the thinking seeps into vocabulary of people that should deal with customers... And there is a complete disconnect...

And since you were honest so will I be.. And blunt, maybe...

Customers don't care what do you think, and how great you think your equipment is... In one hand they have a list of specs that instrument should be able to do for them to do their job. In other hand they have small paper with budget. They also have certain expectations for support structure. If they find instrument that fills the need for half the price, they will go for it.

B- brands are eating into your market from lover end... And slowly getting better and better.. For many people they might just be good enough, for simple things they do..
Not everybody does signal integrity checks on USB3 bus.. And RTB series is not for that market either..
Your company actually own the brand that was ONLY high quality affordable alternative to them (HAMEG) and then you increased prices...
Which is OK, it is corporate decision to work on higher profit products.. That is fine, it's company's prerogative..

But then you go off the cliff with whining about glorious past, and innovation, and how customers disrespect you comparing your products with others you consider unworthy...
Yeah, tough luck... We don't care...

It goes like this:

1. There were many great companies that went bust because they did mistakes.. They were well respected but they misread market and didn't sell enough. They don't exist anymore and nobody cares.. Welcome to capitalism.

2. Innovation... LOL, I love when marketing goes crazy with a phrase and think that it means something to us... Quick explanation: It is called R&D, research and development of new products that are hopefully better or somehow more desirable than products from competition..
It is not something that makes you special. It is normal part of how market works (again, capitalism) and it is COST OF BUSINESS. YOUR cost of business.

3. If somebody stole your trade secrets, patents etc, by all means sue them. That's stealing.
Whining " we were the first to do this and that.."  is just pathetic. Well, you're not anymore.. And aren't you ashamed that you're making Mixed signal scope... Because that innovation came from HP if I remember right, not R&S or HAMEG.. In that regard you're same as chinese brands..

But wait, you didn't steal from HP. Your company "got inspiration" from their idea, and developed their own platform, with lot of hard work... And did fantastic, commendable job.
And nobody said that Hameg "stole the idea". They were ecstatic they will be able to afford great instrument..
If Chinese companies stole your code that's stealing. But if they "got inspired" by your products, and then did their own honest R/D work, and made a product based on their own hard work, you can't complain. It it is what all companies do. It is what your company does. Unless it is ok for German or USA company to do so, only Chinese can't do it.... Double standards ??

Again I have great respect for your company, I own Hameg equipment, and would like to be able to own more... But it's not very likely with current pricing policy, sorry..

Best regards,

Sinisa

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

*On my soapbox*
Waste of time for me to reply to you on this, but you don't have any clue what you are talking about.  R&S has been in business longer than any of the brands you mention above, even HP.  The RTB2000 is a R&S product through and through - using R&S designed ASICs, new SW, etc.  Is the Hameg team involved?  Yep.  But they made great scopes before and now they have the full benefit of the R&S legacy to work with (not to mention groups from both teams worked on this, including people that have designed some of the highest performing RF gear in the world). 

And to your point about Rigol/Siglent/GW/Hantek/whomever - I have no problems with them.  But they aren't innovators.  You might complain that we (Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S) charge a lot for our options, but that helps to fund true product innovation.  R&S was the first company to bring 1M wfms/s to market, the first with a digital trigger, the first with a reasonably priced 10-bit ADC, the first with graticule markings, etc, etc.  I could go on and on for Tek/Keysight/LeCroy too.  All have had many firsts (where you do you think your serial decode and triggering came from - not the "B Brands").  Eventually those things may be copied by the "B Brands" and people will benefit when they buy them at cheap prices.  But don't confuse copying with true product innovation (and I'll admit - price engineering is an innovation, but it would be a sad day if that was the only place people innovated - you'd never see anything new).

So keep trolling the Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S threads 

*Off my soapbox.*

-Rich

Rich,

I appreciate your candor, although I'm sure many will find it arrogant.... But it does show exactly what I have problem with: apparently there exist premium brands club that seems to think they are above the market rules.... You seem to confuse certain terms, and also what you are talking about... Big brands are comparing products between themselves, position them on market, and do all kinds of strategic things in their fight for market position... So some of the thinking seeps into vocabulary of people that should deal with customers... And there is a complete disconnect...

And since you were honest so will I be.. And blunt, maybe...

Customers don't care what do you think, and how great you think your equipment is... In one hand they have a list of specs that instrument should be able to do for them to do their job. In other hand they have small paper with budget. They also have certain expectations for support structure. If they find instrument that fills the need for half the price, they will go for it.

B- brands are eating into your market from lover end... And slowly getting better and better.. For many people they might just be good enough, for simple things they do..
Not everybody does signal integrity checks on USB3 bus.. And RTB series is not for that market either..
Your company actually own the brand that was ONLY high quality affordable alternative to them (HAMEG) and then you increased prices...
Which is OK, it is corporate decision to work on higher profit products.. That is fine, it's company's prerogative..

But then you go off the cliff with whining about glorious past, and innovation, and how customers disrespect you comparing your products with others you consider unworthy...
Yeah, tough luck... We don't care...

It goes like this:

1. There were many great companies that went bust because they did mistakes.. They were well respected but they misread market and didn't sell enough. They don't exist anymore and nobody cares.. Welcome to capitalism.

2. Innovation... LOL, I love when marketing goes crazy with a phrase and think that it means something to us... Quick explanation: It is called R&D, research and development of new products that are hopefully better or somehow more desirable than products from competition..
It is not something that makes you special. It is normal part of how market works (again, capitalism) and it is COST OF BUSINESS. YOUR cost of business.

3. If somebody stole your trade secrets, patents etc, by all means sue them. That's stealing.
Whining " we were the first to do this and that.."  is just pathetic. Well, you're not anymore.. And aren't you ashamed that you're making Mixed signal scope... Because that innovation came from HP if I remember right, not R&S or HAMEG.. In that regard you're same as chinese brands..

But wait, you didn't steal from HP. Your company "got inspiration" from their idea, and developed their own platform, with lot of hard work... And did fantastic, commendable job.
And nobody said that Hameg "stole the idea". They were ecstatic they will be able to afford great instrument..
If Chinese companies stole your code that's stealing. But if they "got inspired" by your products, and then did their own honest R/D work, and made a product based on their own hard work, you can't complain. It it is what all companies do. It is what your company does. Unless it is ok for German or USA company to do so, only Chinese can't do it.... Double standards ??

Again I have great respect for your company, I own Hameg equipment, and would like to be able to own more... But it's not very likely with current pricing policy, sorry..

Best regards,

Sinisa

Hi Sinisa,

First, I appreciate your reply and I didn't mean to come off arrogant.  I apologize if I did.  Believe me, in my 16 years in scopes, I've always been coming from a non market leader position, so I know there are lots of options out there (which is a great thing).  It's also why I said I have nothing against the "B Brands" (BTW - note I used quotes on that every time - not my words).  I think Rigol/Siglent/GW etc make some great products. 

Second, my point (which may have been lost in the long reply) was to nctnico - I've been on the this forum for a very long time (since before Agilent ever sent an x-series to Dave Jones - over seven years).  Sometimes things are lost in what is typed and I typically give people the benefit of the doubt that it didn't come across right.  But I've seen nctnico for some time and because of what I've seen I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt and explained why things are priced like they are, especially for companies like us or Tek/Keysight/LeCroy.  Perhaps I should have given him the benefit of the doubt.  My point in saying "we did this first" or "they did that first" is we are all working to innovate (so I wanted to give some examples).  The benefit is it trickles down.  But innovation costs money.  Hence my reply.

In the end, you are absolutely right, the customer determines the value of anything.  Clearly not every product is perfect and one may be a better fit for someone than another.  I just took offense to nctnico implying we make a lower quality/lower capability product than others.  Definitely wasn't trying to be arrogant.

-Rich

Edit - I also didn't mean to imply that other products aren't worthy.  That wasn't my intention, but looks like it came off that way.  My point in comparing to the Tek or Keysight was to help explain some of the pricing misperceptions people may have had on the RTB - it's actually priced quite competitive to the products we are targeting.

[2N3055]

Hi Sinisa,

First, I appreciate your reply and I didn't mean to come off arrogant.  I apologize if I did.  Believe me, in my 16 years in scopes, I've always been coming from a non market leader position, so I know there are lots of options out there (which is a great thing).  It's also why I said I have nothing against the "B Brands" (BTW - note I used quotes on that every time - not my words).  I think Rigol/Siglent/GW etc make some great products. 

Second, my point (which may have been lost in the long reply) was to nctnico - I've been on the this forum for a very long time (since before Agilent ever sent an x-series to Dave Jones - over seven years).  Sometimes things are lost in what is typed and I typically give people the benefit of the doubt that it didn't come across right.  But I've seen nctnico for some time and because of what I've seen I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt and explained why things are priced like they are, especially for companies like us or Tek/Keysight/LeCroy.  Perhaps I should have given him the benefit of the doubt.  My point in saying "we did this first" or "they did that first" is we are all working to innovate (so I wanted to give some examples).  The benefit is it trickles down.  But innovation costs money.  Hence my reply.

In the end, you are absolutely right, the customer determines the value of anything.  Clearly not every product is perfect and one may be a better fit for someone than another.  I just took offense to nctnico implying we make a lower quality/lower capability product than others.  Definitely wasn't trying to be arrogant.

-Rich

Edit - I also didn't mean to imply that other products aren't worthy.  That wasn't my intention, but looks like it came off that way.  My point in comparing to the Tek or Keysight was to help explain some of the pricing misperceptions people may have had on the RTB - it's actually priced quite competitive to the products we are targeting.

Rich,

I also would like to clarify, I addressed my message "through" you to your bosses, not to you.. You seem to be very nice person, and I also understand your frustration.  It's not easy to please everybody.. Working with people is hard..
Also, I wrote message out of good intentions, to , sort of, warn you how it might have sounded. I didn't really mean to criticize anybody, more of a mail to clarify and defuse situation by pointing facts,  and not who said what.  I'm really glad you understood. 

I actually have a preference for R&S/HAMEG.. I'm from Europe and had more exposure to it.. 

Best regards Rich

Sinisa

[EEVblog]

Please don't hijack this thread with hacking talk.
The thread is big enough as it is.
By all means take it to another thread if you want.

[EEVblog]

My point in comparing to the Tek or Keysight was to help explain some of the pricing misperceptions people may have had on the RTB - it's actually priced quite competitive to the products we are targeting.

Yes. R&S aren't trying to compete with the lesser brands.
Perhaps it's fair to compare the R&S RTB2002 to the Owon 14bit touch screen model 

[Robaroni]

OK Dave, fair enough.
Sorry for the drift, just a sore point after having it happen to me.
Rob

[JoHr]

Yes. R&S aren't trying to compete with the lesser brands.
Perhaps it's fair to compare the R&S RTB2002 to the Owon 14bit touch screen model 

 I know it´s not an OWON thread. But setting the ADC resolution on the Owon down to 12bit increases the Samplerate while memory and acquisition time stays the same. This looks like they were using just a HighRes-Mode. So it should only be calculated 14Bit value ...

[BU508A]

If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

For the RTB2004? *lol* That is ridiculous.
I don't know, where you got the impression, that the RTB2004 is a "Hameg" scope, imo it is not. It is a decent R&S scope.
And it plays definitly not in the league as Rigol or Siglent, it plays higher.

Or can you pint me to a scope from these Companies, which can do:
- 4 analog inputs
- 10 bit ADC
- 10" High Res screen
- 300MHz
- MSO

No?
That's a pity ....

[tautech]

If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

For the RTB2004? *lol* That is ridiculous.
I don't know, where you got the impression, that the RTB2004 is a "Hameg" scope, imo it is not. It is a decent R&S scope.
And it plays definitly not in the league as Rigol or Siglent, it plays higher.

Or can you pint me to a scope from these Companies, which can do:
- 4 analog inputs
- 10 bit ADC
- 10" High Res screen
- 300MHz
- MSO

No?
That's a pity ....

Siglent get close with SDS2304X and leave the rest behind with 140 Mpts memory depth.
That's for western markets ^ in the east there's SDS3000 models with 10" display, 4 Gsa/s and up to 1 GHz but sold as LeCroy WS3000 in the western markets.

[nctnico]

If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

For the RTB2004? *lol* That is ridiculous.
I don't know, where you got the impression, that the RTB2004 is a "Hameg" scope, imo it is not. It is a decent R&S scope.
And it plays definitly not in the league as Rigol or Siglent, it plays higher.

I highlighted the words you obviously missed. Also 10bits doesn't do you any good if you can't utilise them. As I already wrote in the 14 bit Owon unboxing video thread: 10 bit would be great if you can lock the front-end division factor and digitally zoom in vertically when in run mode to avoid overdrive effects and when using input filtering (not available on the RTB2004) to isolate small signals from a large signal.

As Tautech noted Lecroy has the Wavesurfer 3000 in this segment. Also compared to the RTB2004 the GW Instek MSO2000AE series offers a similary complete package for considerably less money.

[Robaroni]

If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

For the RTB2004? *lol* That is ridiculous.
I don't know, where you got the impression, that the RTB2004 is a "Hameg" scope, imo it is not. It is a decent R&S scope.
And it plays definitly not in the league as Rigol or Siglent, it plays higher.

Or can you pint me to a scope from these Companies, which can do:
- 4 analog inputs
- 10 bit ADC
- 10" High Res screen
- 300MHz
- MSO

No?
That's a pity ....

Siglent get close with SDS2304X and leave the rest behind with 140 Mpts memory depth.
That's for western markets ^ in the east there's SDS3000 models with 10" display, 4 Gsa/s and up to 1 GHz but sold as LeCroy WS3000 in the western markets.

What's the MTBF of the Siglent? Build quality? How's resale compared to R&S? Personally I think the R&S is a lot more polished with a nicer layout and the fan noise is much lower - I won't tolerate noisy instruments, it's a deal killer for me. Didn't Dave say you could hear the fan bearings in the Siglent?

I will pay more for Tek, Agilent, R&S, etc. because I know their instrument philosophy. They're known for quality and year after year these instruments perform. I've bought chips for Tek scopes 15 years after their introduction, will Siglent be around in 15 years? Will they still have parts inventories?

Lots of cost factors, I've found just going by the purchase price doesn't tell the whole story - penny wise dollar foolish-.

[ws2812b]

Youtube did it again and "recommended" me another video about the RTB2004. This time an unboxing video of a guy you snatched a launch edition


He also own an Rigol MSO1104z and did a comparison

[Augustus]

Die he show all the license keys? 

[PA0PBZ]

Die he show all the license keys? 

So what? It only works on his scope.

[nctnico]

Die he show all the license keys? 

So what? It only works on his scope.

It can be used as input for determining the algorithm used to generate the keys and liberate the options.

[PA0PBZ]

It can be used as input for determining the algorithm used to generate the keys and liberate the options.

Yes, so nothing but good news here

[ws2812b]

He has a second one comparing to the Rigol

[tautech]

What's the MTBF of the Siglent? Build quality? How's resale compared to R&S? Personally I think the R&S is a lot more polished with a nicer layout and the fan noise is much lower - I won't tolerate noisy instruments, it's a deal killer for me. Didn't Dave say you could hear the fan bearings in the Siglent?

I will pay more for Tek, Agilent, R&S, etc. because I know their instrument philosophy. They're known for quality and year after year these instruments perform. I've bought chips for Tek scopes 15 years after their introduction, will Siglent be around in 15 years? Will they still have parts inventories?

Lots of cost factors, I've found just going by the purchase price doesn't tell the whole story - penny wise dollar foolish-.

This is not the right thread to examine your points/claims in detail other than to say that all scopes are going the way of mass produced consumer items where little repair is done at board level. Product failures are rare, build quality as good as anything else and I've seen more fan replacement threads for old Teks than any other brand but no brand is immune to them.
We all think the new kid on the block MUST have something suspect about it but to gain traction in this market and develop any reputation they need do things right.
Without this competition how much would you be paying for the A brands ? 

[Robaroni]

What's the MTBF of the Siglent? Build quality? How's resale compared to R&S? Personally I think the R&S is a lot more polished with a nicer layout and the fan noise is much lower - I won't tolerate noisy instruments, it's a deal killer for me. Didn't Dave say you could hear the fan bearings in the Siglent?

I will pay more for Tek, Agilent, R&S, etc. because I know their instrument philosophy. They're known for quality and year after year these instruments perform. I've bought chips for Tek scopes 15 years after their introduction, will Siglent be around in 15 years? Will they still have parts inventories?

Lots of cost factors, I've found just going by the purchase price doesn't tell the whole story - penny wise dollar foolish-.

This is not the right thread to examine your points/claims in detail other than to say that all scopes are going the way of mass produced consumer items where little repair is done at board level. Product failures are rare, build quality as good as anything else and I've seen more fan replacement threads for old Teks than any other brand but no brand is immune to them.
We all think the new kid on the block MUST have something suspect about it but to gain traction in this market and develop any reputation they need do things right.
Without this competition how much would you be paying for the A brands ? 

I didn't bring up the price comparison, I just replied to it with my views.

Key word is "old" Teks.

I don't think that at all, I'm the one who said that the real hero is AD and other chip makers that these scopes all use -check some of my statements. R&S just did a great job of bringing this to market in an especially well thought out package.

I'm among those stupid people who buy high end scopes because they've done so well in their field that they can buy whatever they want. If China didn't exist it wouldn't change my buying habits one iota.

Do I think the R&S was a great value at the price I paid for it? Sure but I probably would have bought it anyway without some of the options I don't use. I like the scope and I like the company.

[nctnico]

I'm among those stupid people who buy high end scopes because they've done so well in their field that they can buy whatever they want.

Ofcourse it is nice if you don't have to care about budget or ROI (return on investment) but most of us do. You can buy about three B-brand scopes for the price of one A-brand scope. With carefull selection you can avoid the lemons and still save quite a bit of money and/or upgrade to the latest technology / bells & whistles much sooner. With the fast pace technology is moving forward it is just not realistic to think a scope is still up-to-date after 5 years. Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.

[Pinkus]

Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.

I used your quote as an opportunity to make my own list. Indeed since 2006 I had 8 scopes 
If I count out three scopes
1) the nightmarish crappy Owon in 2007 (I switched in on and played with it for maybe 5 minutes - then it was placed on Ebay immediately and was luckily sold quickly)
2) the analog Tek scope which I had from 2000 until 2010 and which was kept as a second scope for a long time
3) the mistakenly purchased Keysight DSOX2004 scope (sold immediately after arrival and replaced by a 3000 series scope)
it is two years in average here too.
I guess now it is time for a new scope for keeping the pace 

Well if Rohde and Schwarz adds crucial functionality to the next firmware (like bidirectional serial decoders, more trigger options, more advanced math options for just naming three areas) and pay attention to some details (already addressed in this and the other R&S thread) there will be a RTB2004 soon on my bench .... otherwise I will keep my Keysight MSOX3024 - as the crippled RTB2004 with often less functionality as low cost China stuff is of no interest for me. Touchscreen / UI / fast boot time and 10 bit are nice - but math and triggers are essential - there is no excuse this is missing in a >7000 Euro scope.

[Harb]

Yep, I have decided to wait and see what the next firmware adds to the scope........ it will be interesting.

[Robaroni]

I'm among those stupid people who buy high end scopes because they've done so well in their field that they can buy whatever they want.

Ofcourse it is nice if you don't have to care about budget or ROI (return on investment) but most of us do. You can buy about three B-brand scopes for the price of one A-brand scope. With carefull selection you can avoid the lemons and still save quite a bit of money and/or upgrade to the latest technology / bells & whistles much sooner. With the fast pace technology is moving forward it is just not realistic to think a scope is still up-to-date after 5 years. Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.

OK I'll bite what's changing so much in two years that you have to update your scope? What kind of ROI is that?

[nctnico]

There are new features becoming available all the time. For one of my projects input filtering and deep memory where extremely handy so I got a scope which has those features. I'm not keeping my old scopes so money isn't sitting on a shelve devaluating.

[Robaroni]

Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.

I used your quote as an opportunity to make my own list. Indeed since 2006 I had 8 scopes 
If I count out three scopes
1) the nightmarish crappy Owon in 2007 (I switched in on and played with it for maybe 5 minutes - then it was placed on Ebay immediately and was luckily sold quickly)
2) the analog Tek scope which I had from 2000 until 2010 and which was kept as a second scope for a long time
3) the mistakenly purchased Keysight DSOX2004 scope (sold immediately after arrival and replaced by a 3000 series scope)
it is two years in average here too.
I guess now it is time for a new scope for keeping the pace 

Well if Rohde and Schwarz adds crucial functionality to the next firmware (like bidirectional serial decoders, more trigger options, more advanced math options for just naming three areas) and pay attention to some details (already addressed in this and the other R&S thread) there will be a RTB2004 soon on my bench .... otherwise I will keep my Keysight MSOX3024 - as the crippled RTB2004 with often less functionality as low cost China stuff is of no interest for me. Touchscreen / UI / fast boot time and 10 bit are nice - but math and triggers are essential - there is no excuse this is missing in a >7000 Euro scope.

Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....