new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[Simon]

Can we stop please, or shall I stop the thread, this is going well out of control and is not useful anymore......

[Robaroni]

Used one on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352129570839?ul_noapp=true

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Hi Folks - sorry, I've been away from my PC for a couple weeks on vacation and this thread exploded.  A couple comments:

1.  Thanks Markus for the update.  R&S is not known for abandoning products - I think everyone can feel comfortable that we will definitely continue to update them.  We may just not move as fast as we'd all like (especially over the summer months).

2.  I agree with Simon's comment - I appreciate the feedback (positive and negative), but lets try to stay on topic.

3.  I find it intriguing that people keep comparing the RTB2000 to Keysight's x3000T and Tek's MDO3000.  It was not targeted at that class, but I can see why it might be compared.  And while you can option the RTB2000 up to ~$6,000 due to the 300MHz (no one would ever option it to $8K as you can save significant money with the package bundle versus buying each individual item for free), please keep in mind it also starts at $1,370 and has similar pricing to the 2000X and DPO2000 (while offering a 10-bit ADC, lower noise, touch, a much larger display, significantly deeper memory, etc).  Because it has so much HW capability, I also definitely understand the desire to add more SW capability like advanced math (that even lower cost scopes have) and rest assured that feedback has been passed on.

Now that I'm back in the groove, I'll try to do a better job of keeping you all up-to-date and sending your feedback on to the factory team (although as you can tell they also read this thread too).

-Rich

[Robaroni]

Hi Folks - sorry, I've been away from my PC for a couple weeks on vacation and this thread exploded.  A couple comments:

1.  Thanks Markus for the update.  R&S is not known for abandoning products - I think everyone can feel comfortable that we will definitely continue to update them.  We may just not move as fast as we'd all like (especially over the summer months).

2.  I agree with Simon's comment - I appreciate the feedback (positive and negative), but lets try to stay on topic.

3.  I find it intriguing that people keep comparing the RTB2000 to Keysight's x3000T and Tek's MDO3000.  It was not targeted at that class, but I can see why it might be compared.  And while you can option the RTB2000 up to ~$6,000 due to the 300MHz (no one would ever option it to $8K as you can save significant money with the package bundle versus buying each individual item for free), please keep in mind it also starts at $1,370 and has similar pricing to the 2000X and DPO2000 (while offering a 10-bit ADC, lower noise, touch, a much larger display, significantly deeper memory, etc).  Because it has so much HW capability, I also definitely understand the desire to add more SW capability like advanced math (that even lower cost scopes have) and rest assured that feedback has been passed on.

Not that I'm back in the groove, I'll try to do a better job of keeping you all up-to-date and sending your feedback on to the factory team (although as you can tell they also read this thread too).

-Rich

Thanks Rich!

[mrwilby]

Hi folks,

as promised two days ago, I had a short talk with the responsible product manager of the RTB. The next FW release will take place end of October this year. He told me, that our plan is three FW releases per year. The major focus off this next release is bug fixing.

I hope this helps

Markus

Markus, it's really great news to hear R&S is committed to supporting the RTB. I am extremely happy with mine and am looking forward to fixes and improvements over the coming months ahead. Thanks for engaging with the community!

[MikeP]

 Hello.
 I have some questions about RTB2004. I used scope about week and have good impression – this is the better thing which I saw.

1.   The arb. generator without constant slew rate (for the rectangle waveform). Why?
2.   What should be a signal after probe compensation? The probe calibrator allows ambiguity. Both pics are valid.
3.   At the 50ms and more timebase the memory segment #0 was look very strange.
4.   Sometimes Pattern Gen menu was unavailable. I can't find reasons.
 
 Thanks.
 Mike.

[MikeP]

 Please explain me FFT behavior and how I must use it. The FFT function is very important for me. Now I see unexpected and unreliable result.
 Unfortunately, I see internal distortion (level dependent) as in my old Tek

 Thanks.
 Mike.

[MikeP]

 This is the correct position of the front cover.

[Hydron]

Hello.
 I have some questions about RTB2004. I used scope about week and have good impression – this is the better thing which I saw.

1.   The arb. generator without constant slew rate (for the rectangle waveform). Why?
2.   What should be a signal after probe compensation? The probe calibrator allows ambiguity. Both pics are valid.
3.   At the 50ms and more timebase the memory segment #0 was look very strange.
4.   Sometimes Pattern Gen menu was unavailable. I can't find reasons.
 
 Thanks.
 Mike.

The first picture looks like a better probe compensation than the second. I find it is best to work with both high-frequency adjustments more than once to get the best waveform.

As for item 3, this is a bug that I have also found, I have reported it but it would be good to send your picture to R&S too. I did not measure the timebase where this error started, but you have, which might be useful to them to help fix it.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Hi MikeP - I'll talk with the factory and get back with you on your questions.

-Rich

[agdr]

Thanks Markus!  If R&S can get the majority of that pile of bugs reported back on the March firmware fixed the scope would regain its "killer" title, IMHO.  I agree that the UI needs a swift kick on backside. If not possible with the existing RTB hardware then hopefully for v2.0. The version that gets those necessary advanced math functions added.

I'm still enjoying my RTB2004 much more than my previous Rigol, so it is serving the purpose, bugs and all.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Hello.
 I have some questions about RTB2004. I used scope about week and have good impression – this is the better thing which I saw.

1.   The arb. generator without constant slew rate (for the rectangle waveform). Why?
2.   What should be a signal after probe compensation? The probe calibrator allows ambiguity. Both pics are valid.
3.   At the 50ms and more timebase the memory segment #0 was look very strange.
4.   Sometimes Pattern Gen menu was unavailable. I can't find reasons.
 
 Thanks.
 Mike.

Hi Mike - I received some feedback on your questions:

1.  Currently the slewrate changes based on the frequency of the rectangle wfm.  The team plans to change this to the fastest possible slew rate independent of the used frequency in a future update.
2.  Your first picture is the correct one (you want the shortest rise time without overshoot).  If you were able to get the second one in the green area of the probe adjustment tool, please let us know (we haven't been able to recreate that). 
3.  This is a bug and is in our system for future updates.
4.  This is a bug and is already fixed in the next version of firmware.

-Rich

Edit:  Missed answering #2 originally.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Please explain me FFT behavior and how I must use it. The FFT function is very important for me. Now I see unexpected and unreliable result.
 Unfortunately, I see internal distortion (level dependent) as in my old Tek

 Thanks.
 Mike.

Hi Mike - one more update on your FFT questions.  This is also a bug.  It doesn't appear on channel 1 (only channel 2 and only when just channel 2 is being used), so there is a relatively simple workaround.  It has been added to our defect tracking service for a future FW update. 

Thanks for the feedback!

-Rich

[MikeP]

 Dear Rich.

 I’m grateful to you. I know RTB is very good instrument. And it will be better. We will wait.

These are three collages with various results of measurements of the same signal. You can see the difference between the channels also. A signal source is the built-in generator. The scope was calibrated. By the way, calibration has impact on FFT-result.
 
 I hope it will be useful. The FFT has ambiguity for me. I will be grateful for any help. Unfortunately FFT still unusable function without rejector filter. And thanks for info about 2-ch.

 Thanks.
 Mike.

[MikeP]

 The probe. I not have video but all absolutely honestly. This variant is valid also.

[MikeP]

 Info about the internal generator. It has very hard spectrum at the high output amplitude. Up to the 2-3Vp-p output much shorter. As example 30Vp-p output from G3-120 and 5Vp-p from RTB gen.

[markb82]

I was wondering if the promo deal will come up again in the future?  I couldn't afford it at the time and my TDS-220 is getting long in the tooth.

[ws2812b]

I cannot imagine that this will come up again from all that they said here in the forum, but Rich pointed out that R&S has several promos over the course of time. Also as they sell this product via other companies, these might have their own promos as well. In the German speaking area for example I just saw that datatec seems to have a summer vacation offer:
http://www.datatec.de/AC00375-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2000-Oszilloskop-MSO-Software-Paket.htm#detail_text
Not quite the original deal, but still pretty good

having used my unit now since some months, my recommendation: go for it, if you can afford it. Definitely worth it.

[markb82]

Thanks for the info ws.  Do you know, or does anyone know if the RTB2K-74 package includes 300 MHz probes for when it is upgraded to 300 MHz later?  My options are:

1. Get the RTB2K-74 and upgrade later (or hack it, lets be honest).
2. Get the RTB2K-COM4 from eBay, looks like people are reselling them at about $3500 USD, which is a shame cause I don't think R&S created the promo so that people would resell them at a profit.
3. Get a used MSOX2024A from eBay for about $1800 USD, which is an excellent scope as well.

Any thoughts on the MSOX2024A vs the RTB2Ks?  My impression (from reading the forum and youtube reviews) is that the R&S has a much nicer screen with more real estate but a more sluggish GUI.  The R&S also has a significant memory depth advantage.

Mark

[ws2812b]

Thanks for the info ws.  Do you know, or does anyone know if the RTB2K-74 package includes 300 MHz probes for when it is upgraded to 300 MHz later? 

Yep, as I didn't by the intro deal (Austria!) but a normal unit and obviously didn't go for the full bandwidth (no need for me), I can confirm, that it comes with the exact same probe as the 300 MHz unit (see also datsheet) and they are speced for the full bandwidth.

Any thoughts on the MSOX2024A vs the RTB2Ks?  My impression (from reading the forum and youtube reviews) is that the R&S has a much nicer screen with more real estate but a more sluggish GUI.  The R&S also has a significant memory depth advantage.

I only had the chance to use the Keysight boxes once at a fair, but my impression is
MSO2000x vs RTB2000 -> RTB2000 is almost a different league and it is almost unfair to compare it. Just wins in any aspect. But it is roughly the same price as the MSO2000X (at least in Austria)
MSO3000XT vs RTB2000 -> the MSO3000XT has a slight advantage in features as is has 50 Ohm , probe interface and stuff like this, but also costs about 15% more (at least here in Austria)and it essentially has no memory. Plus: I don't need nor could I afford those gimmicks

[markb82]

Thanks that's excellent that R&S gives the full bandwidth probes    .   My former roommate was a EE PhD student and he swore by R&S equipment especially VNAs and spectrum analysers (he is an RF guy).

Out of curiosity which package did you buy?

[ws2812b]

Out of curiosity which package did you buy?

I just got the logic channels (Rtb-b1) in addition

[hwj-d]

Also have a look at RTB-PK1, as i mentioned before:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1266391/#msg1266391

[LaurentR]

A few issues that may not have been reported:
* Protocol decoding for Parallel and Parallel Clocked is only available using the Logic Channels (not the 4 analog channels). Is this limitation necessary?
* When selecting "Parallel" or "Parallel Clocked" in the "Protocol" menu then clicking on "Configuration"and "Bus Width", I haven't found a way to change the bus width using the touch screen or the web UI. It seems doable only through the "Analysis" physical knob.
* User Manual ver2 p115, there is a typo "Troggering on parallel buses is not possible."

[MikeP]

 These are some examples of FFT function. I think for precision measurements this device is unsuitable.
 The signal source is G3-118. The first harmonic was suppressed by rejector (- 100db). The second harmonic - 106 dB. For me it is physical vacuum.