EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: rolycat on September 25, 2014, 06:02:40 pm

Title: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 25, 2014, 06:02:40 pm
This new 50MHz version of the 4-channel DS1000Z series scopes is being discussed in several threads, particularly this one (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-oscillosope/). However, the price/performance is so outstanding that it surely deserves its own.

A 4 channel, 12 Mpts memory, 30 000 waveforms/second, intensity graded scope of this quality for around 399 USD/299 EUR/235 GBP (plus tax) is nothing short of astounding, even before the hacking possibilities are considered.

Dave has announced that he is getting one, so hopefully we can look forward to a review in the not too distant future, and - unless he finds any unexpected gotchas - a new default recommendation for entry level scopes.

Due to the ever-growing length of this thread, I have added the following section which answers frequently asked questions about the scope:
(Additions/corrections welcome - send me a PM)

Unless you have specific requirements not met by this model, it is still the default recommendation in its price range.

As of late October 2018 the most recent firmware version available from Rigol is v00.04.04.03.05 , dated April 2018 and available here (https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/1000z/). A record of outstanding bugs is being maintained here (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-buglist-continued-(from-fw-00-04-04-03-02)/).

The oscilloscope does not have a real time clock, and therefore cannot add the current time and date to saved screenshots and other data.

A number of trial options are initially enabled which will expire after 35 hours runtime (not 35 hours since first use). A 'hack' is available to enable 100MHz bandwidth and all of the trial features which after expiring are normally only available at additional cost. Users considering this should be aware that it is not approved by Rigol and may void the warranty. A website featuring the code generator to enable the features can be found at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/. (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/.) Do not use the DSFR code suggested on the website. Codes for 500uV vertical resolution are intended for oscilloscopes such as the DS2000A series which have the necessary hardware for this feature. The code DSER enables all features except 500uV, which is not supported on the DS1000Z series and will cause erroneous results at this setting.
The changes can be removed using the SCPI command :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall
Full instructions for both installing and removing the changes via SCPI are provided by alsetalokin4017 here (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg654839/#msg654839).
Chumanista has produced a quick video guide to upgrading and hacking the scope, available here (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1027971/#msg1027971).

The US vendor TEquipment offers a discount on this oscilloscope and other products to EEVBlog members. This is available if you mention the offer when ordering. You can also use a discount code, but TEquipment have requested that it not be reproduced on the forum. There is a forum topic where the code can be requested from other members here (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/).

Some prospective buyers of the DS1054Z are concerned about software bugs. These have been extensively documented due to the instrument's huge popularity, but at the time of writing most have been resolved by firmware updates. There are likely to be a number of bugs with most newly launched budget oscilloscopes, but these typically have less visibility due to much lower sales volumes.

Some of the RP2200 probes supplied with the scope have been found to have intermittent contacts when switched to the 1X setting. A fix for this issue is described here (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg669159/#msg669159).

Dave has a number of blogs featuring this scope and its siblings:

A first look: EEVBlog 522 (http://www.eevblog.com/2013/09/20/eevblog-522-rigol-ds1000z-oscilloscope-quick-look/)
Teardown: EEVBlog 674 (http://www.eevblog.com/2014/10/15/eevblog-674-rigol-ds1054z-teardown/)
Reverse engineering: EEVBlog 675 (http://www.eevblog.com/2014/10/22/eevblog-675-how-to-reverse-engineer-a-rigol-ds1054z/)
Jitter problems: EEVBlog 683 (http://www.eevblog.com/2014/11/14/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/)
Jitter fix:  EEVBlog 699 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/05/eevblog-699-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-jitter-fix-testing/)
Summary review:  EEVBlog 703 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/15/eevblog-703-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-review-summary/)
Features review:  EEVBlog 704 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/15/eevblog-704-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-features-review/)
Probe performance:  EEVBlog 707 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/22/eevblog-707-rigol-oscilloscope-probe-performance/)
(There is apparently also a performance testing review which has not yet been released.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: saturation on September 25, 2014, 11:23:37 pm
What a price point, the 1054Z pretty much makes the 1052e obsolete, its a better entry level scope for only $70 more [ based on Rigol's list price] as you get 2 more channels and a faster update rate, at the least.  In the US, Tequipment is giving free shipping so there is other no hidden cost, beyond possibly sales tax.

See the other thread for datasheets and users manual.

We'll really need a learned users review to see if the build quality is truly equal to the others in the line and reveal any bugs in the firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 01:08:59 am
I got mine yesterday. So far it's a big thumbs up.

I haven't used/seen the others in the range but why would this one be built differently or have fifferent firmware?

I can easily spend more than the cost of the 'scope in unlockable options. Would they put cheap knobs on it just to spite the people who only want 50MHz bandwidth? That makes no sense.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on September 26, 2014, 01:13:54 am
Ordered mine just now from drieg. Hoping to get my hands on it next week.  :-/O :box:.
Can't wait to toy around with the thing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 01:16:50 am
How durable are the knobs on these things? Seems like some of them take quite a pounding (eg. the menu button). Do they last...?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on September 26, 2014, 01:39:34 am
How durable are the knobs on these things? Seems like some of them take quite a pounding (eg. the menu button). Do they last...?
The DS1054Z is exactly the same as the other 1000Z(-S) DSO/MSOs and so far, it is pretty much all praise-praise-praise for its older and bigger brothers so I would expect the DS1054Z to be no different.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 26, 2014, 02:13:40 am
How durable are the knobs on these things? Seems like some of them take quite a pounding (eg. the menu button). Do they last...?

They come with a three year warranty, so presumably Rigol are confident that they will last the distance.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frenky on September 26, 2014, 03:02:36 am
Mine is already full option DS1104Z.  :-+

This thing is really light years ahead of the usb crap that I was using before...

P.S.
This thing runs on linux right? How come It doesent need "soft" shut down?
I feel really bad by pressing the button which just cuts power to the scope...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 26, 2014, 03:35:22 am
So you are saying that you have 100MHz bandwidth and can verify it? Sorry for the doubt but I haven't read everything on this scope but I believed the extra features could be added but not bandwidth. I hope I am wrong.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 03:42:09 am
So you are saying that you have 100MHz bandwidth and can verify it? Sorry for the doubt but I haven't read everything on this scope but I believed the extra features could be added but not bandwidth. I hope I am wrong.

But would would be different about this particular UltraVision scope? Rigol doesn't sell bandwidth upgrades for ANY of their DSOs - the fact that you could enable higher BW via keys was only because Rigol put the code in their UltraVision FW with the intention of offering upgrades - but they've never implemented it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: c4757p on September 26, 2014, 04:03:25 am
This thing runs on linux right? How come It doesent need "soft" shut down?
I feel really bad by pressing the button which just cuts power to the scope...

No idea what it runs on, but either way, it's just a matter of filesystem access. Make sure everything happens when you ask it to instead of being queued for background writes later, don't be writing things when it's not obvious, and write things in a way that they're recoverable if the power is cut midway through. Don't run services which need to save state at shutdown.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on September 26, 2014, 04:14:37 am
But would would be different about this particular UltraVision scope? Rigol doesn't sell bandwidth upgrades for ANY of their DSOs - the fact that you could enable higher BW via keys was only because Rigol put the code in their UltraVision FW with the intention of offering upgrades - but they've never implemented it.
Do we know if the DS1000Z line uses the LMH6518 PGA, like the DS2000 line?  If so, what would be different is that it doesn't seem like they could reduce the bandwidth from 70MHz to 50MHz using LMH6518 settings, so there would have to be some other LPF or software limit added.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 04:38:09 am
So you are saying that you have 100MHz bandwidth and can verify it? Sorry for the doubt but I haven't read everything on this scope but I believed the extra features could be added but not bandwidth. I hope I am wrong.

a) Somebody posted some waveforms in the "DS1074Z" thread, they seemed to show an improvement.

b) People have been tweaking the DS1074Z to DS1104Z for ages. Why would this be different?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on September 26, 2014, 04:45:59 am
a) Somebody posted some waveforms in the "DS1074Z" thread, they seemed to show an improvement.
He seems to have deleted that post.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on September 26, 2014, 05:28:23 am
Ordered my on Tequipment a week ago and it just shipped, a steal for only $356! (edu pricing + eeveblog discount)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mandelbrot on September 26, 2014, 06:14:26 am
Ordered my on Tequipment a week ago and it just shipped, a steal for only $356! (edu pricing + eeveblog discount)

How did you do this? I was told that the edu pricing and the EEVblog discount were mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on September 26, 2014, 06:20:33 am
Ordered my on Tequipment a week ago and it just shipped, a steal for only $356! (edu pricing + eeveblog discount)

How did you do this? I was told that the edu pricing and the EEVblog discount were mutually exclusive.
uh, it was?? I have an edu email, and I applied the eevblog discount and the website accepted it??
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 06:25:38 am
a) Somebody posted some waveforms in the "DS1074Z" thread, they seemed to show an improvement.
He seems to have deleted that post.

I think the measurable difference will be tiny in practice.

Plus ... even with the DS1104Z you can only get the 100MHz on a single channel. If you use more than one channel you'll get pretty much the same bandwidths as the DS1054Z (they both have the same sample rate, etc).

I'd still have bought mine even if you told me the keygen did nothing. 300 Euros is a whole new level of "bargain" for a 'scope like this.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 26, 2014, 06:34:01 am
So it is still not clear whether the bandwidth is upgradeable. I will might buy one if it ever gets confirmed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 26, 2014, 07:13:00 am
I think the measureable difference will be tiny in practice.

I agree, it is somewhat of a moot point because the sample rate is not there if using more than one channel anyway.

1ch = 1GSa = 10 samples per second @ 100 MHz
2ch = 500MSa = 10 samples per second @ 50 MHz
4ch = 250MSa = 10 samples per second @ 25 MHz

I hope the bandwidth does improve, or was never different to begin with.

Did anyone ever prove if the 1074 and 1104 are different or exactly the same in signal response?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 26, 2014, 07:46:05 am
The bandwidth is always there. Sample rate relates to the accuracy of the shape of the waveform captured. Almost every scope doesn't  keep their maximum sample rate with more than one channel, so every scope's bandwidth is a moot point?

But yes, at even 50MHz, this is a good buy.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 07:48:35 am
So it is still not clear whether the bandwidth is upgradeable. I will might buy one if it ever gets confirmed.

You'll overlook a decent 4-channel DSO for $400 just because you can't hack the bandwith to get a tiny, hard to measure improvement? 

 :palm:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 26, 2014, 07:54:12 am
so every scope's bandwidth is a moot point?

Of course not, but this particular scope's sample rate with 2 or more channels limits the speed of a signal you can get 10 or more samples with to 50MHz(2ch) or 25MHz(4ch).  So while a bandwidth upgrade is nice if it works, it is of limited use.  I truly wonder if the model difference does affect the bandwidth or if they are all the same....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 08:01:01 am
Almost every scope doesn't  keep their maximum sample rate with more than one channel, so every scope's bandwidth is a moot point?

Not totally moot, but when two 'scopes have the exact same same front end, probes and sample rate I don't think one is worth twice as much as the other just because it goes a teeny bit higher in single channel mode.

If you're truly interested in 100MHz signals you should probably be looking at a DS2000 anyway.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 26, 2014, 08:17:59 am
Authoritative figures will doubtless soon arrive from someone with proper equipment, but I have just tested my upgraded DS1054Z against a couple of other scopes using an old pulse generator.

Using a vaguely sinusoidal 52MHz signal, measured amplitudes were as follows:

Scope P-PBandwidth
Rigol DS1054Z 2.40 V  100 MHz
Tektronix 465B 2.4 V  100 MHz
Hantek DSO5062B  2.46 V  ~200 MHz

Level instability was around +/- 0.04V.

The DS1054Z thinks it is a DS1104Z, and the DSO5062B has been software-upgraded to a ballpark 200MHz.
The pulse generator is an ancient and very obscure Pulsetek 233, connected via an RG-58 BNC cable with an inline 50 ohm terminator at the scope end.

This does suggest that either applying the option codes has indeed increased the bandwidth or that it has always been around 100MHz and model numbers are notional.

Having said all that, the triggering, decoding, recording and memory depth options are far more useful to me.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on September 26, 2014, 08:20:37 am
Which process did you use to get the options ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 26, 2014, 08:26:46 am
You'll overlook a decent 4-channel DSO for $400 just because you can't hack the bandwith to get a tiny, hard to measure improvement? 

 :palm:

But yes, at even 50MHz, this is a good buy.

I already have a scope and spending money to replace it requires that certain threshold of improvement is achieved. There are many benefits to the DS1054Z but going backwards in bandwidth goes against the grain a bit. Personal bias? YES! It is my money and I have my criteria for making an upgrade.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 26, 2014, 08:31:36 am
Which process did you use to get the options ?
The riglol keygen, as documented in various threads.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on September 26, 2014, 08:34:53 am
Did you need to connect to the JTAG interface first though ?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 26, 2014, 08:36:07 am
Did you need to connect to the JTAG interface first though ?
Nope
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LeoUCDavis on September 26, 2014, 09:25:29 am
Is there a code for getting the eev discount?

uh, it was?? I have an edu email, and I applied the eevblog discount and the website accepted it??
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 26, 2014, 09:41:42 am
I sent you a pm with it
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on September 26, 2014, 01:11:26 pm
But yes, at even 50MHz, this is a good buy.
For someone who really needs waveform accuracy though, the DS1000Z platform starts coming apart at the seams if you need quad-channel capability beyond 25MHz.

I plan to use my DS1054Z mostly for power-related measurements and those usually call for a 20MHz bandwidth limit anyway. Pretty much as close to a perfect fit for what I need it for as it gets.

I already have a scope and spending money to replace it requires that certain threshold of improvement is achieved. There are many benefits to the DS1054Z but going backwards in bandwidth goes against the grain a bit. Personal bias? YES! It is my money and I have my criteria for making an upgrade.
This is a bit like a mechanics' toolbox where you may find 10 slightly different versions of a 12mm wrench (angled, straight, knuckle-length, standard length, box, open, pipe, etc.) or socket (wobble, short, medium, long, thin-wall, impact, 1/4", 5/8", 1/2", 3/4" drive, etc.)  They are all fundamentally the same tool but mechanics hoard multiple variants because in some circumstances, having the tool that fits exactly right can spare them tons of trouble.

Instead of looking at it as a replacement, you might want to look at it as a complement to cover areas where your current one is deficient. Ex.: you are debugging stuff on a board and suspect it might be power-related but you need your good scope to chase high-frequency stuff. If you had a DS1054Z, you could set it up to monitor the power rails and leave your main scope's channels free for whatever else you need to do.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: cdstriker on September 26, 2014, 05:09:13 pm
Any chance someone would be willing to give me the EEVblog discount code for TEquipment?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on September 26, 2014, 05:25:44 pm
Any chance someone would be willing to give me the EEVblog discount code for TEquipment?
PM sent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on September 26, 2014, 05:37:00 pm
I already have a scope and spending money to replace it requires that certain threshold of improvement is achieved. There are many benefits to the DS1054Z but going backwards in bandwidth goes against the grain a bit. Personal bias? YES! It is my money and I have my criteria for making an upgrade.
Seems reasonable actually (any market), but especially with what things tend to cost in Brazil. Shipping alone can ruin a good value otherwise.  :(

Bandwidth aside, is there anything you're lacking with your existing scope that a newer budget DSO could provide (i.e. existing scope is analog, so some DSO features might be nice to have)?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Ivan7enych on September 26, 2014, 07:22:49 pm
Any chance someone would be willing to give me the EEVblog discount code for TEquipment?
I simply open chat on TEquipment site, and tell them "I'm a member of a eevblog, can I get a discount?". And I've got this discount in 5min. I used that method twice.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2014, 07:37:26 pm
For someone who really needs waveform accuracy though, the DS1000Z platform starts coming apart at the seams if you need quad-channel capability beyond 25MHz.

Oh course it does, it's one of the cheapest scopes on the market! only US$399.
Off hand I can't think of another scope that even comes close in bang-per-buck for the same price?

Of course, if you want to get pedantic, at 250MSs with all 4 channels on, that gives you 5 times the max 50MHz bandwidth. In theory you only need about 2.4 times the sample rate if you have sin x/x interpolation, giving just over 100MHz bandwidth before it becomes an issue over and above the base bandwidth. So more than enough in the case of 50MHz here.
Many people don't feel comfortable with this mathematical concept though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2014, 07:38:45 pm
A sample 1054Z is on it's way to me end of next week.
And I should have my own unit some time after that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 07:59:48 pm
In theory you only need about 2.4 times the sample rate if you have sin x/x interpolation

Is that why they don't let you turn it on when you're only using one or two channels?   ;)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2014, 08:06:38 pm
Is that why they don't let you turn it on when you're only using one or two channels?   ;)

They do that?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 08:09:43 pm
For someone who really needs waveform accuracy though, the DS1000Z platform starts coming apart at the seams if you need quad-channel capability beyond 25MHz.

Oh course it does, it's one of the cheapest scopes on the market!

 :-DD I guess we're not thinking from a marketer's viewpoint...

Imagine if it didn't come apart at the seams, the entire ecosystem would collapse!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 08:10:28 pm
Is that why they don't let you turn it on when you're only using one or two channels?   ;)

They do that?

Yes.

Edit: No it doesn't, it just prevents manual control of the setting. Appears to be always "ON".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 08:16:49 pm
Of course, if you want to get pedantic, at 250MSs with all 4 channels on, that gives you 5 times the max 50MHz bandwidth. In theory you only need about 2.4 times the sample rate if you have sin x/x interpolation...

This theory only holds true when you have an analog input signal that has no frequency content above the Nyquist frequency - in this case, 125MHz. This would require that the DSO have a frequency response which attenuated signals > 125MHz at -60dB to avoid aliasing. This is not true for the DS1000Z series - and the very reason that most DSOs have sampling rates 10 or more times higher than their highest bandwidth. Said differently, the frequency response of the oscilloscope does not roll-off infinitely fast and some buffer room is needed on the sampling rate to minimize aliasing.

Why does the DS1000Z have a switch to turn on and off sin(x)/x? Because it should be switched off when running 3 or 4 channels - and sometimes the 20MHz BW limiter switched on as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 08:19:42 pm
Why does the DS1000Z have a switch to turn on and off sin(x)/x? Because it should be switched off when running 3 or 4 channels

Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

Edit: No it doesn't, it just prevents user control of the setting with one or two channels.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 08:24:38 pm
Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

On the DS2000, sin(x)/x is ON automatically when sampling at 1 or 2GSa/s - and automatically switched OFF (linear interpolation) when sampling at < 500MSa/s.

EDIT: Perhaps it's also ON automatically sometimes? Like when using just 1 or 2 channels with a high sample rate? I'm guessing with 1/2 channels, it functions as a DS2000.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 08:31:21 pm
That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

From the user manual:

Quote
Sin(x)/x
Press Sin(x)/x to enable or disable the dynamic sine interpolation function which can acquire better restoration of the original waveform.

Note: If the number of channels currently turned on is less than three, Sin(x)/x is grayed out and disabled.

To me that sounds like it's by design, not a bug.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 08:35:51 pm
From the user manual:

Quote
Sin(x)/x
Press Sin(x)/x to enable or disable the dynamic sine interpolation function which can acquire better restoration of the original waveform.

Note: If the number of channels currently turned on is less than three, Sin(x)/x is grayed out and disabled.

To me that sounds like it's by design, not a bug.

As I mentioned above in my EDIT, it may be that automatic selection of sin(x)/linear works the same as the DS2000 when running 1 or 2 channels - giving you manual selection ONLY when you have 3 or 4 channels enabled.

In any case, I can assure you that Rigol engineers have not figured out a way to beat the Nyquist theorem or limits of sin(x)/x interpolation.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 26, 2014, 08:37:36 pm
That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

From the user manual:

Quote
Sin(x)/x
Press Sin(x)/x to enable or disable the dynamic sine interpolation function which can acquire better restoration of the original waveform.

Note: If the number of channels currently turned on is less than three, Sin(x)/x is grayed out and disabled.

To me that sounds like it's by design, not a bug.

I think the phrasing in the manual is misleading here.

On my scope, the Sin(x)/x key is indeed greyed out if less than three channels are turned on, but the text reads "ON". It can only be turned off when three or four channels are in use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 08:39:27 pm
As I mentioned above in my EDIT, it may be that automatic selection of sin(x)/linear works the same as the DS2000 when running 1 or 2 channels - giving you manual selection ONLY when you have 3 or 4 channels enabled.

I dunno. I'll leave that to Dave in his review/test...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 08:39:58 pm
On my scope, the Sin(x)/x key is indeed greyed out if less than three channels are turned on, but the text reads "ON". It can only be turned off when three or four channels are in use.

Thanks for clarifying; it's just as I originally proposed (i.e. the opposite).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 08:42:33 pm
On my scope, the Sin(x)/x key is indeed greyed out if less than three channels are turned on, but the text reads "ON". It can only be turned off when three or four channels are in use.

Can you check what it reads when you have just 1 or 2 channels enabled with a slower sample rate (e.g. something <=250MSa/s)?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 08:48:49 pm
On my scope, the Sin(x)/x key is indeed greyed out if less than three channels are turned on, but the text reads "ON". It can only be turned off when three or four channels are in use.

Ah, ok.... PEBOAC.

Can you check what it reads when you have just 1 or 2 channels enabled with a slower sample rate (e.g. something <=250MSa/s)?

I just went down to 25Msa/s. It never enables the setting.

(And that agrees with what the manual says...)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 08:51:43 pm
I just went down to 25Msa/s. It never enables the setting.

(And that agrees with what the manual says...)

I don't want to know if it enables the setting - I already know it doesn't. I want to know if it says ON or OFF at sample rates <= 250MSa/s. My theory is that the DSO functions like the DS2000 when running 1 or 2 channels - automatically switching OFF sin(x)/x when the sampling rate is 1/4 or less than the maximum.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 08:57:48 pm
I don't want to know if it enables the setting - I already know it doesn't. I want to know if it says ON or OFF at sample rates <= 250MSa/s. My theory is that the DSO functions like the DS2000 when running 1 or 2 channels - automatically switching OFF sin(x)/x when the sampling rate is 1/4 or less than the maximum.

It never says "OFF", always "ON".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 08:59:27 pm
It never says "OFF", always "ON".

Another bug then.  :)  There is no way sin(x)/x interpolation is running at very slow sample rates. I guess Rigol didn't feel the code necessary to change the display to ON or OFF was necessary if it wasn't enabled.  ;D

The menu name should ACTUALLY be something like "AUTO sin(x)/x".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 09:13:55 pm
The menu name should ACTUALLY be something like "AUTO sin(x)/x".

Or maybe the key should display "AUTO" instead of "ON".

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 09:33:44 pm
It never says "OFF", always "ON".

BTW, if you want to see if/when the DSO is using sin(x)/x versus linear interpolation: set the memory depth to the minimum, set the the time base to make the sampling rate 1/2 or 1/4 of the maximum,  then look at a zoomed signal and check for 'smoothing'. Exit zoom, turn the time base one setting slower, then zoom in again. Keep repeating until the smoothing vanishes and the signal becomes a collection of straight-line vectors.

Here are 2 images of the same signal which show the difference between AUTO sin(x)/x - linear switching on the DS2000.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 26, 2014, 09:59:36 pm
Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

If the digitizer suffers from excessive amplitude or phase jitter when interleaving is used which happens when only 1 or 2 channels are active, then Rigol might force (x)/x interpolation off because it makes aliasing generated in the digitizer through intermodulation more apparent.  This occurs whether the input signal has components above the Nyquist frequency or not and no anti-aliasing filter can improve the situation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 10:15:31 pm
Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

If the digitizer suffers from excessive amplitude or phase jitter when interleaving is used which happens when only 1 or 2 channels are active, then Rigol might force (x)/x interpolation off because it makes aliasing generated in the digitizer through intermodulation more apparent.  This occurs whether the input signal has components above the Nyquist frequency or not and no anti-aliasing filter can improve the situation.

As already indicated by subsequent posts, this is not the case - and in fact, Fungus had it backwards, just as I wrote - the DSO only allows you to turn it OFF when 3 or 4 channels are enabled. Besides, IMO, your theory presumes a bad design to begin with - and I doubt there's a modern DSO, inexpensive or otherwise - that does what you propose.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 26, 2014, 11:16:30 pm
Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

If the digitizer suffers from excessive amplitude or phase jitter when interleaving is used which happens when only 1 or 2 channels are active, then Rigol might force (x)/x interpolation off because it makes aliasing generated in the digitizer through intermodulation more apparent.  This occurs whether the input signal has components above the Nyquist frequency or not and no anti-aliasing filter can improve the situation.

As already indicated by subsequent posts, this is not the case - and in fact, Fungus had it backwards, just as I wrote - the DSO only allows you to turn it OFF when 3 or 4 channels are enabled. Besides, IMO, your theory presumes a bad design to begin with - and I doubt there's a modern DSO, inexpensive or otherwise - that does what you propose.

Well, the above discussion about what the Rigol is doing is clear as mud. :)

The old DSOs which I have used that support sin(x)/x interpolation only forced it off when using equivalent time sampling where it is useless.  In all other cases and especially at low sample rate to bandwidth ratios, it was controlled by the user.

Some pretty expensive modern oscilloscopes which use interleaving visibly suffer from this problem to one extent or another.  I have yet to see anybody test for it on Rigol's oscilloscopes or any other inexpensive DSO.

This Agilent application note discusses the interleaving issue:

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf)

And this one shows on page 5 what happens to a fast transition time signal when this occurs on a real-time DSO although it does not discuss this specific cause:

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5988-8008EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5988-8008EN.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 11:39:59 pm
Well, the above discussion about what the Rigol is doing is clear as mud. :)

I think rolycat's post makes it crystal clear that sin(x)/x is either ON all the time with 1/2 channels *or* (more likely) is automatically switched ON/OFF based on sample rate (as it's bigger brother, the DS2000 does).

Quote
Some pretty expensive modern oscilloscopes which use interleaving visibly suffer from this problem to one extent or another.  I have yet to see anybody test for it on Rigol's oscilloscopes or any other inexpensive DSO.

I understand the problem with interleaving - but to propose that the interleaving happening inside a single chip - which has been designed specifically to have it's multiple ADC's interleaved - is bad enough to warrant switching off sin(x)/x seems a stretch to me.  :)

In any case - as I showed with my posted images - it's quite simple for any DS1000Z owner to find out when and where the DSO is using sin(x)/x interpolation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 27, 2014, 12:39:53 am
Well, the above discussion about what the Rigol is doing is clear as mud. :)

I think rolycat's post makes it crystal clear that sin(x)/x is either ON all the time with 1/2 channels *or* (more likely) is automatically switched ON/OFF based on sample rate (as it's bigger brother, the DS2000 does).

This is not the first time that I have found Rigol's documentation to be less than unambiguous.

Quote
Quote
Some pretty expensive modern oscilloscopes which use interleaving visibly suffer from this problem to one extent or another.  I have yet to see anybody test for it on Rigol's oscilloscopes or any other inexpensive DSO.

I understand the problem with interleaving - but to propose that the interleaving happening inside a single chip - which has been designed specifically to have it's multiple ADC's interleaved - is bad enough to warrant switching off sin(x)/x seems a stretch to me.  :)

This is why I wish someone would test this.  From what I remember, the ADC does some type of internal self-calibration to minimize distortion caused by interleaving but it is still at the mercy of its external clock source.

Quote
In any case - as I showed with my posted images - it's quite simple for any DS1000Z owner to find out when and where the DSO is using sin(x)/x interpolation.

It would be easier if the oscilloscope would just report its true state.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 27, 2014, 01:55:32 am
Well, the above discussion about what the Rigol is doing is clear as mud. :)

Mea culpa.

This is why I wish someone would test this.  From what I remember, the ADC does some type of internal self-calibration to minimize distortion caused by interleaving but it is still at the mercy of its external clock source.

You're saying Rigol don't know how to make a stable clock source?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on September 27, 2014, 02:25:24 am
Why does the DS1000Z have a switch to turn on and off sin(x)/x? Because it should be switched off when running 3 or 4 channels

Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

I'm just going to hazard a guess, since I don't have a 1000z, but sinx/x may default On (or always be on) for 1 or 2 channels.  And defaults Off with 3 or 4 enabled (with the option to turn it back on, as Fungus noted, IF you know the input signal characteristics would allow it).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 27, 2014, 02:49:07 am
Why does the DS1000Z have a switch to turn on and off sin(x)/x? Because it should be switched off when running 3 or 4 channels

Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

I'm just going to hazard a guess, since I don't have a 1000z, but sinx/x may default On (or always be on) for 1 or 2 channels.  And defaults Off with 3 or 4 enabled (with the option to turn it back on, as Fungus noted, IF you know the input signal characteristics would allow it).
This question has already been resolved - see my subsequent post.

Fungus, maybe you could edit your posts to avoid misunderstandings by readers skimming the thread?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 27, 2014, 02:52:37 am
Bandwidth aside, is there anything you're lacking with your existing scope that a newer budget DSO could provide (i.e. existing scope is analog, so some DSO features might be nice to have)?

I have a modified DS1052E. What is missing is the update speed, the much bigger memory, and protocol decoding. These could all be helpful to me. I probably will get one. I don't need much more than what this scope offers so a DS2072A is much more money for not much more of what I could use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on September 27, 2014, 03:40:40 am
Bandwidth aside, is there anything you're lacking with your existing scope that a newer budget DSO could provide (i.e. existing scope is analog, so some DSO features might be nice to have)?

I have a modified DS1052E. What is missing is the update speed, the much bigger memory, and protocol decoding. These could all be helpful to me. I probably will get one. I don't need much more than what this scope offers so a DS2072A is much more money for not much more of what I could use.
Makes sense.  :)

I'm still only using a CRO (Tek 2445B, so not exactly a hardship  :P), and some of the features of a DSO would be nice (screenshots for example).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 27, 2014, 03:44:27 am
Hi all.

This morning a friend came in my lab with a new little toy (hacked DS1054z) and asked me to have some measurement done; since I was busy I made just a couple of test of it.

Measured bandwidth -3db @ 116MHZ with my old (and trusty) Agilent 8657B.
Also attached you will find the best rise and fall time measured.

Still I can't believe that this thing costs only 299€.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 27, 2014, 04:28:11 am
This is why I wish someone would test this.  From what I remember, the ADC does some type of internal self-calibration to minimize distortion caused by interleaving but it is still at the mercy of its external clock source.

You're saying Rigol don't know how to make a stable clock source?

I am suggesting that Rigol is playing games with the sin(x)/x reconstruction filter because it makes their digitizer linearity or sampling jitter look bad but maybe Occam's Razor or Hanlon's Razor applies.

All someone has to do is measure multiple single shot responses on either fast edges or clean sine waves close below the Nyquist frequency and compare them with and without interleaving which is easy enough to do by enabling the other channels.  If there is a problem with clock source jitter, ADC linearity (presumably made worse by interleaving), or ADC sampling jitter (also presumably made worse with interleaving), it will show up with or without the sin(x)/x reconstruction but it is easier to see with it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on September 27, 2014, 04:47:47 am
Hi all.

This morning a friend came in my lab with a new little toy (hacked DS1054z) and asked me to have some measurement done; since I was busy I made just a couple of test of it.

Measured bandwidth -3db @ 116MHZ with my old (and trusty) Agilent 8657B.
Also attached you will find the best rise and fall time measured.

Still I can't believe that this thing costs only 299€.

That is awesome, thanks  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 27, 2014, 05:21:48 am
I am suggesting that Rigol is playing games with the sin(x)/x reconstruction filter because it makes their digitizer linearity or sampling jitter look bad but maybe Occam's Razor or Hanlon's Razor applies.

Honestly, your "suggestion" is based on pure speculation - and, IMO, contradictory to both posted information from users and common sense. To me it seems as if you're just spreading misinformation.

It's already been reported that sin(x)/x is displayed as being automatically ON with 1 or 2 channels enabled - and having manual selection available ONLY when the highest sampling rate is 250MSa/s makes perfect sense - both from the point of view of avoiding possible aliasing in the sin(x)/x interpolation, plus that of porting code from the other UltraVision models.

Instead of continually expounding this theory, perhaps you can post a link to one single document from ANY scope manufacturer that describes turning OFF sin(x)/x at the FASTEST real-time sampling rates to avoid the problem you're imagining.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 27, 2014, 06:42:04 am
Still I can't believe that this thing costs only 299€.

If Rigol wanted to set the market on fire it looks like they succeeded.

They sell themselves. I just showed mine to somebody and he's like, "I'm gonna get one...".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 27, 2014, 08:02:29 am
I am suggesting that Rigol is playing games with the sin(x)/x reconstruction filter because it makes their digitizer linearity or sampling jitter look bad but maybe Occam's Razor or Hanlon's Razor applies.

Honestly, your "suggestion" is based on pure speculation - and, IMO, contradictory to both posted information from users and common sense. To me it seems as if you're just spreading misinformation.

I do not expect common sense from a company that repeatedly confused peak detection with envelope detection in an apparent attempt to mislead customers into thinking their DSOs had the former when they actually only had the later.  I ran across this years ago when I was evaluating DSOs (before the Rigol Z series was even announced) and it led me to disqualify Rigol.  Ever since then, I have been suspicious of their motives.  Of course this may have been common sense for them from a marketing point of view.

Quote
It's already been reported that sin(x)/x is displayed as being automatically ON with 1 or 2 channels enabled - and having manual selection available ONLY when the highest sampling rate is 250MSa/s makes perfect sense - both from the point of view of avoiding aliasing, plus that of porting code from the other UltraVision models.

It does NOT make sense for it to be disabled (or enabled) to avoid aliasing because sin(x)/x reconstruction neither causes nor increase aliasing.  It merely makes it more apparent.

Quote
Instead of continually expounding this theory, perhaps you can post a link to one single document from ANY scope manufacturer that describes turning OFF sin(x)/x at the FASTEST real-time sampling rates to avoid the problem you're imagining.

I would love to link to a set of screen shots or videos showing if the aliasing problem exists or not in a Rigol DSO but I do not have one to test.  I can show it on other (old) DSOs and in Agilent's application notes but that is not very helpful except to show that the problem exists in a general sense.  Agilent pointed the problem out to distinguish themselves from Tektronix.

No company in their right mind is going to include as a reason for turning off sin(x)/x interpolation that it is to conceal aliasing made worse by interleaving done to increase the real-time sample rate.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 27, 2014, 08:37:16 am
I do not expect common sense from a company that repeatedly confused peak detection with envelope detection in an apparent attempt to mislead customers into thinking their DSOs had the former when they actually only had the later.  I ran across this years ago when I was evaluating DSOs (before the Rigol Z series was even announced) and it led me to disqualify Rigol.  Ever since then, I have been suspicious of their motives.  Of course this may have been common sense for them from a marketing point of view.

Your problems with them from the past are meaningless to this discussion, IMO - virtually every single company has made mistakes with some product at some point or another. The point is rather that you started this theory of yours in response to a MISTAKE that was posted in this thread by an owner (Fungus) about the way the DSO dealt with with sin(x)/x.

Quote
It does NOT make sense for it to be disabled (or enabled) to avoid aliasing because sin(x)/x reconstruction neither causes nor increase aliasing.  It merely makes it more apparent.

As has been mentioned before: for sin(x)/x interpolation to be accurate, you have to have an analog input signal that has no frequency content above the Nyquist frequency - which, when 3 or 4 channels are on, is 125MHz. The normal frequency response of the DS1000Z does not roll-off fast enough to minimize aliasing for sin(x)/x interpolation - i.e. LINEAR interpolation should be used  - or-  to put it another way, there exists a good reason for being able to manually keep sin(x)/x turned OFF when 3 or 4 channels are on, if you need to. On the other hand, if you enable the 20MHz bandwidth limiter for each channel that's turned on, you can use sin(x)/x interpolation without problems, regardless of the number of channels on.

Quote
I would love to link to a set of screen shots or videos showing if the aliasing problem exists or not in a Rigol DSO but I do not have one to test.  I can show it on other (old) DSOs and in Agilent's application notes but that is not very helpful except to show that the problem exists in a general sense.  Agilent pointed the problem out to distinguish themselves from Tektronix.

Again, where are these application notes? I want to see a document describing turning off sin(x)/x interpolation because of interleaving problems at the fastest real-time sampling rates. I can link to reams of literature about the problem of aliases in sin(x)/x interpolation, if you like.

Quote
No company in their right mind is going to include as a reason for turning off sin(x)/x interpolation that it is to conceal aliasing made worse by interleaving done to increase the real-time sample rate.

Do you mean that no company will have published literature about this made-up theory of yours?  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on September 27, 2014, 09:26:38 am
A sample 1054Z is on it's way to me end of next week.
And I should have my own unit some time after that.

So you 'll be doing a review?? :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 27, 2014, 10:31:23 am
Your problems with them from the past are meaningless to this discussion, IMO - virtually every single company has made mistakes with some product at some point or another. The point is rather that you started this theory of yours in response to a MISTAKE that was posted in this thread by an owner (Fungus) about the way the DSO dealt with with sin(x)/x.

They are meaningful in questioning the credibility of Rigol and especially so since they have continuously made the same mistake for years and have not corrected it yet.  Perhaps I am too strident at times.

I admit that I mistakenly thought Rigol was disabling sin(x)/x at low sample rates to conceal digitizer non-linearity and sampling jitter.  Now I am suspicious that they are doing the same at higher sample rate to conceal the same problems when interleaving is used.

What other oscilloscopes disable sin(x)/x reconstruction at high sample rates where it is still useful?  Oscilloscopes operating with equivalent time sampling do so because they can fill the entire waveform record with real sample points.  These 1 Gsample/second real-time only DSOs certainly cannot do that.

Quote
Quote
It does NOT make sense for it to be disabled (or enabled) to avoid aliasing because sin(x)/x reconstruction neither causes nor increase aliasing.  It merely makes it more apparent.

As has been mentioned before: for sin(x)/x interpolation to be accurate, you have to have an analog input signal that has no frequency content above the Nyquist frequency - which, when 3 or 4 channels are on, is 125MHz. The normal frequency response of the DS1000Z does not roll-off fast enough to minimize aliasing for sin(x)/x interpolation ...

I agree.

Quote
... - i.e. LINEAR interpolation should be used  - or-  to put it another way, there exists a good reason for being able to manually keep sin(x)/x turned OFF when 3 or 4 channels are on, if you need to. ...

The aliasing produced in the digitizer between an input signal which is completely below the Nyquist frequency and the sample clock occurs whether sin(x)/x reconstruction is used or not.  If you were to collect the sample points over multiple acquisitions, they would show thickening of the waveform which is *not* caused by noise.

I have often wondered if DSOs which support some form of persistence and appear to show excessive noise actually suffer from this but that is a different discussion.

I also wonder if this is why they do not support equivalent time sampling with their digital triggers but that is also a different discussion.

Quote
... On the other hand, if you enable the 20MHz bandwidth limiter for each channel that's turned on, you can use sin(x)/x interpolation without problems on the higher sample rates

I agree but for a specific reason; with the bandwidth limit engaged or with a lower frequency signal, the mixing products between the signal and the sample clock produced by the non-linearity and sample jitter in the digitizer are *also* below the Nyquist frequency so no aliasing is produced.

Quote
Quote
I would love to link to a set of screen shots or videos showing if the aliasing problem exists or not in a Rigol DSO but I do not have one to test.  I can show it on other (old) DSOs and in Agilent's application notes but that is not very helpful except to show that the problem exists in a general sense.  Agilent pointed the problem out to distinguish themselves from Tektronix.

Again, where are these application notes? I want to see a document describing turning off sin(x)/x interpolation because of interleaving problems at the fastest real-time sampling rates. I can link to reams of literature about the problem of aliases in sin(x)/x interpolation, if you like.

When I first ran across this problem with my Tektronix 2440 which needed CCD calibration, Agilent had an application note describing the issue perfectly but I did not keep a copy and have not been able to find it again online.  I did find a couple of others:

This LeCroy application note mentions the sin(x)/x reconstruction problem in connection with interleaving on page 15 with a Tektronix DSO.  Agilent likes to pick on Tektronix about this as well:

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf)

This Agilent application note discusses the interleaving problem and distortion from the digitizer itself as the source of aliasing when the input signal is completely within the Nyquist bandwidth.  I think I linked this one earlier:

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf)

I even found a discussion thread on EEVblog with accompanying video which shows exactly the problem I described with a Rigol DS1102E.  I do not agree with the analysis that I have read so far there but am still working through the discussion:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin%28x%29x-interpolation/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin%28x%29x-interpolation/)

At about 46 seconds into the video, it shows the results of sin(x)/x reconstruction on a sine wave that started out below the Nyquist frequency were higher frequency components created by mixing between the sample clock and the signal in the digitizer cause aliasing.

Quote
Quote
No company in their right mind is going to include as a reason for turning off sin(x)/x interpolation that it is to conceal aliasing made worse by interleaving done to increase the real-time sample rate.

Do you mean that no company will have published literature about this made-up theory of yours?  ;)

Well, they are certainly not going to advertise it in their oscilloscope specifications or documentation unless for the purpose of distinguishing themselves from their competitors and maybe not even then. :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 27, 2014, 11:04:59 am
They are meaningful in questioning the credibility of Rigol and especially so since they have continuously made the same mistake for years and have not corrected it yet.  Perhaps I am too strident at times.

You clearly have some bad feeling about Rigol based on some problem you have/had with their older technology. Peak Detect (not Envelope mode) works perfectly fine on my Rigol DS2000 - as opposed to, say, the new Siglent SDS2000.

Quote
The aliasing produced in the digitizer between an input signal which is completely below the Nyquist frequency and the sample clock occurs whether sin(x)/x reconstruction is used or not.

I can't even believe this is something we need to debate - if the waveform is not-band limited properly, then it's generally agreed upon that linear interpolation usually provides a more faithful representation. That's why Rigol provides manual control of the interpolation when the sample rate is reduced to 250MSa/s when 3 or 4 channels are turned on - it's that simple.

Quote
This LeCroy application note mentions the sin(x)/x reconstruction problem in connection with interleaving on page 15 with a Tektronix DSO.  Agilent likes to pick on Tektronix about this as well:

I certainly don't see anything of the sort written on page 15. I see LeCroy stating that, "The Tektronix scope shows some amplitude modulation in the result, but this thought not to be a result of interpolation, but instead interleaving performance."

What has this to do with your stated theory that a company will disable sin(x)/x at fast sample rates to hide interleaving problems?

Anyway, I'm finished debating this. You clearly have some pet theory about this DSO (and it's technology) that is unsupported by any evidence whatsoever because you feel burned by Rigol about something else. If you find ANY actual proof that Rigol is disabling sin(x)/x at higher sample rates to conceal interleaving problems, I'd be happy to hear about it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 28, 2014, 02:37:40 am
Another day, and other 5 minutes of test:

The first image is of a 130MHZ signal (50% AM modulated by 1khz sine)  just to push the scope to its limits.
The second is about the trigger out jitter time (3nS) measured from the rear output.

Moreover following results are measured by a calibrated 5334B and 1MHZ square wave:
The acquistion modes doesn't affect the wps rate.

These results simply make me sad because now I have to get one!  ;D




Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 28, 2014, 02:50:40 am
The second is about the trigger out jitter time (3nS) measured from the rear output.

What would a trigger output with that much jitter be used for?  Qualifying a logic analyser or word recognizer?

I have used gate outputs from analog oscilloscopes and trigger outputs from DSOs which have analog triggering but I always relied on very low jitter unless I was measuring update frequency.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 28, 2014, 03:13:01 am
Quote
What would a trigger output with that much jitter be used for?  Qualifying a logic analyser or word recognizer?
IMHO 3nS jitter on a 100MHZ cheap scope is a decent time and it is difficult to have better results with digital triggers feeded by 1G samples per second. It's just three sample uncertainty.
 
Personally I don't use measuring tape when I look for millimeters.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 28, 2014, 03:35:12 am
The second is about the trigger out jitter time (3nS) measured from the rear output.
Are you sure your tests are completely accurate? In your image, I don't see a separate input channel being used to generate the Trigger Outs (unless the output is from a different DS1000Z).

The Trigger Out jitter of the DS1074Z - as measured by two different owners here (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg448542/#msg448542) and here (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg448586/#msg448586) - was reported as 8ns. I doubt it's been changed by Rigol on the DS1054Z model - although it would be nice if they had  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 28, 2014, 03:48:03 am
In fact I didn't use two channels.
I just let the scope autooscillate on a single channel after an external stimulus and set the scope to trigger both negative and poitive edges.
When you turn on two channels you have 8nS jitter.
With three and four channels active 9nS jitter.
Now I'm having my dinner but I'll post some other pictures later.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 28, 2014, 04:43:44 am
Quote
What would a trigger output with that much jitter be used for?  Qualifying a logic analyser or word recognizer?

IMHO 3nS jitter on a 100MHZ cheap scope is a decent time and it is difficult to have better results with digital triggers feeded by 1G samples per second. It's just three sample uncertainty.

I am actually surprised they include a trigger output at all but I guess it is easy enough to do.  It is certainly handy for measuring the acquisition rate.

I understand where the jitter and delay come from in the implementation.  Do all DSOs with digital triggering have the same limitation?

I wonder what would be the best way to eliminate it in this type of design short of implementing an external analog trigger which would be unlikely to provide any additionally useful function.  I guess a programmable delay should be all that is needed although that would do nothing to lower the delay.

On two channel DSOs, is there similar jitter between the external trigger and the internal trigger?  If there is the easy way to solve that is to digitize the external trigger and use transition midpoint timing but I have no idea if they go that far.

Quote
Personally I don't use measuring tape when I look for millimeters.

I don't either.

Just the other day I was using the gate out on my 7904 like this to measure jitter at specific trigger levels because analog delayed sweep was not up to the task.  My much slower 7603 at 100 MHz would have worked just as well but the sweep gate output is on the back and difficult to reach.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 28, 2014, 04:49:59 am
In fact I didn't use two channels.

But neither did the other two people that measured the jitter (if you follow the links I posted above) - they used a second DSO (DS2000) to measure the jitter.

Quote
I just let the scope autooscillate on a single channel after an external stimulus and set the scope to trigger both negative and poitive edges.

I don't think that's going to give you a real world representation of the output jitter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 28, 2014, 05:01:06 am
Quote
Just the other day I was using the gate out on my 7904 like this to measure jitter at specific trigger levels because analog delayed sweep was not up to the task.  My much slower 7603 at 100 MHz would have worked just as well but the sweep gate output is on the back and difficult to reach.
I still am a proud tek 7854 owner and I know what are you saying.  ^-^

Quote
I wonder what would be the best way to eliminate it in this type of design short of implementing an external analog trigger which would be unlikely to provide any additionally useful function.  I guess a programmable delay should be all that is needed although that would do nothing to lower the delay.
There are several ways but are all expensive if compared to the street price of this scope.


Quote
But neither did the other two people that measured the jitter (if you follow the links I posted above) - they used a second DSO (DS2000) to measure the jitter.
I'm at home now. On monday I'll go to the lab and give that a shot.

Anyway, attached you'll find the 6.4nS jitter when both channel 1 and 2 are on with the same measuring method I used before.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 28, 2014, 05:35:02 am
A small update:

with the same method and AC coupling for the triggering I can't see the jitter at all.  ;D
And is not affected by the number of turned ON channels.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 28, 2014, 06:42:18 am
A small update:

with the same method and AC coupling for the triggering I can't see the jitter at all.  ;D
And is not affected by the number of turned ON channels.

So what exactly is being measured here?

The interesting thing would be internal trigger or external trigger in to external trigger out delay and jitter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 28, 2014, 07:03:42 am
Quote
So what exactly is being measured here?

The interesting thing would be internal trigger or external trigger in to external trigger out delay and jitter.
Since the DS1000z series haven't an external trigger input I have simply connected the trigger out to channel 1 input with a BNC cable.

To let someone else replicate:

If it doesn't start immediately move the trigger level back and forth.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 01:09:12 am
So....after a bit of back-and-forth it seems clear that the DS1054Z indeed has something like 100MHz bandwidth after inputting the codes.

What we really need is somebody who can do a test before/after, preferably with two scopes side by side. Maybe Dave will do it.

PS: Is there any way to "remove" a key? Some sort of factory reset?

PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...

Then again, what's the worst than can happen? That Rigol sell a load more oscilloscopes? If anybody gets angry at the video it should be Agilent, Tektronix, et. al., not Rigol.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on September 29, 2014, 01:20:07 am
So just to confirm the 1054z can be changed to 100mhz just like the 1074z?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 01:31:02 am
PS: How does hacking affect the warranty? Has anybody ever sent a 'scope in for repair with the wrong name in the system info (eg. it says DS1054Z on the hardware and "DS1104Z" on the system info screen).

It's not like anybody opened it up or modified the hardware in any way...all they did was press the buttons on it in a certain sequence.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on September 29, 2014, 01:41:47 am
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...
There is not much of a video to make about this: you take your serial number, put it in the code generator, take the code the generator spits out and enter it on the scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 02:22:08 am
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...
There is not much of a video to make about this: you take your serial number, put it in the code generator, take the code the generator spits out and enter it on the scope.

(Maybe you need to look up "brazen" in the dictionary)

Obviously I don't mean the physical process of doing it, more the morality of posting videos about it (and saying "beauty!" at the end).

Would you do it if it was your blog?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 29, 2014, 02:44:09 am
Quote
PS: Is there any way to "remove" a key? Some sort of factory reset?
Just go to the UltraSigma Utility, send SCPI command
:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall
and reboot the scope.

Tomorrow I'll make the test you are asking for and after I have to return the scope to the owner.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on September 29, 2014, 02:44:37 am
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...
There is not much of a video to make about this: you take your serial number, put it in the code generator, take the code the generator spits out and enter it on the scope.

(Maybe you need to look up "brazen" in the dictionary)

Obviously I don't mean the physical process of doing it, more the morality of posting videos about it (and saying "beauty!" at the end).

Would you do it if it was your blog?
If Dave starts making videos /promote hacks, its over with the free stuff he gets from Agilent,Fluke and Rigol.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 03:08:11 am
If Dave starts making videos /promote hacks, its over with the free stuff he gets from Agilent,Fluke and Rigol.

EEVblog #70  ?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on September 29, 2014, 03:45:29 am
rigol has a way to prevent this, just make DIFFERENT scopes ie front-ends...

 i would say hacking actualy works for them, ie they'll sell more, like i wrote on some yt comment
Quote
as somebody just mentioned 100mhz hack for DS1054Z.... if true, it suggests they think hackability works for them, and if you think about it for a moment, it's quite possible that they sell more scopes in this way... (consumer just thinks he got something for nothing, and consumer likes that! heh...but he did pay for the scope...)

(i mean the hacking just got even easier with z series...that doesn't suggest rigol hates it, does it?)

dave already did it once, so why stop now?
i think that video actually helped sell a awhole lot of 1052 sopes.

also, if your motto is "no script no fear all opinion" do you  have a choice?  ;D

video should be made, because people started to search the yt instead of google.  :-//
(video of 30sec length, just the hack... )

this does void the warranty but what if you have a dealer that will backup your machine prior to shipping it and then put it back in case it needs to go back to rigol on repair?  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 29, 2014, 04:03:44 am
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...

video should be made, because people started to search the yt instead of google.
(video of 30sec length, just the hack... )

It seems you guys are rather late to the party. We've been discussing, posting, rehashing, etc. about the UltraVision (and other new Rigol products) hacks on this blog for about a year and a half. Why would Dave feel compelled to do a video blog about it now?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 04:55:42 am
(i mean the hacking just got even easier with z series...that doesn't suggest rigol hates it, does it?)

I agree. I'm 100% sure they could have made this scope so the 100MHz thing didn't work, it's up to their firmware to accept the code or not. Fact is: They just launched a new 'scope with a firmware that appily switches to 100MHz using an existing, widely known key generator.

They knew exactly what would happen and have already crunched the sales numbers.

Thir sales numbers will say: Fungus just bought one, his friend is buying one this week...anybody who sees one will say "Take my money!". They're going to sell a shedload of 'scopes and take the entire home-user market for themselves.

A lot of (most?) serious professionals and education will still pay for the one that says "DS1104Z" on the front. They'll suspect that something has to be different.


Why would Dave feel compelled to do a video blog about it now?

Not a video just about hacking, a video on the DS1054Z itself. We know he's getting one, we kinda know he's going to do a video on it (it's the biggest news in the oscilloscope world for a long time!) Will he mention the hacks?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on September 29, 2014, 05:48:18 am
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...

video should be made, because people started to search the yt instead of google.
(video of 30sec length, just the hack... )

It seems you guys are rather late to the party. We've been discussing, posting, rehashing, etc. about the UltraVision (and other new Rigol products) hacks on this blog for about a year and a half. Why would Dave feel compelled to do a video blog about it now?
have you tried searching this forum or the web for "DS1054Z"? do you see this thread in those results? or do you see some obvious hints on how to hack it?
don't be shy, input "DS1054Z hacking" in google....

also, why did dave post a video about hacking 1052? heck, all the data was on the web already...right?
(all i'm saying is that i would pay him to do it if i was rigol..ie to do review and end with hacking explained...30sec clip was not reference to dave, he makes longer videos...)

it's all about search and how easy or tough is it to find info. also 1054z is fairly new. even though his "brothers" (ie series) are not.

but yes, i was sleeping (didn't need (another) scope last month or last year) and i have less intention to read 2xx pages of "Sniffing the Rigol's internal I2C bus" thread just to find hacking info and what could go wrong and when.... (rig)lol.  ;)

fungus yes, not everyone will know what is hackable and how, some will just buy a 100mhz "original". (and that makes hack seem even more clever on rigol's behalf...win-win situation! they'll sell more 1054 because of hack, and they'll sell model 11 because somebody doesn't know about the hack...damn.....if you have such ideas you should be monopolist!  :-DD  i mean come on, even the dealers will help you hack it...)

i dunno how many of you are aware about another field where hacking means sales: satellite receivers used in europe.
otoh, hacking also means not everybody will be doing it, but if there ever was a fertile ground for hacking, it's scope users! you buy it because you like to tinker.....

it would be interestign to know how many 1052s rigol made/sold....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 29, 2014, 06:05:42 am
What versions of firmware are available?  Are these hosted anywhere?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 29, 2014, 07:17:12 am
have you tried searching this forum or the web for "DS1054Z"? do you see this thread in those results? or do you see some obvious hints on how to hack it?
don't be shy, input "DS1054Z hacking" in google....

Googling "DS1000Z hacking" or "Rigol hacking" would make much more sense. And yes, it's quite easy to find the info on this forum with a slight investment of time.

Quote
also, why did dave post a video about hacking 1052?

That was 4 and 1/2 years - and a much smaller EEVblog - ago.

Quote
it's all about search and how easy or tough is it to find info. also 1054z is fairly new. even though his "brothers" (ie series) are not.

It's easy to find the information.

Quote
and i have less intention to read 2xx pages of "Sniffing the Rigol's internal I2C bus" thread just to find hacking info and what could go wrong and when.... (rig)lol.  ;)

While I appreciate the desire to not have to do any work whatsoever for free stuff, that hardly seems like a great reason for Dave to make a video about it.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on September 29, 2014, 09:06:05 am
marmad, heh, you need to one me up....  :)

you probably would use 'DS1000Z', as you know about it (and still find zilch, same as search i mentioned). i wouldn't bet all people buying scopes think in series' numbers. infact i would say most would just think more precise info would be found if they input EXACTLY what they have. ie rigol product line/series don't play that much to them.
(this is a usual mistake technically minded folks do, they think everybody is equally tech. minded as them. they also think everybody is an active member of eevblog forum looking for new rigol scopes all the time?  :P)

as for forum search, did you try it? inform us do you get results from this page. or would you like me to make a screenshot?
sure
see attachment....

Quote
That was 4 and 1/2 years - and a much smaller EEVblog - ago.
you seem to be saying that rigol wants this as a dirty lil secret that everybody and nobody knows about?
while you're discussing about it for long time now? and people started to talk about hacking (not just here) as soon as it appeared.
doesn't add up.

Quote
It's easy to find the information.
no. you're biased because you're talking about it for a year and a half.
this scope is so new it's not mentioned that much on the web at all.
people just recently started to buy it and hack it. and are checking the rise/fall times to see if they actually got higher bandwidth.
(i'm talking about checked and rechecked info, ie people trying it and working for them..on this scope..not talking about any other rigol scope)

Quote
While I appreciate your desire to not have to do any work whatsoever for free stuff, that hardly seems like a great reason for Dave to have to make a video about it.
i did my work, didn't i mention the right thread? and key making web-page.
listen, do a bit of a social experiment, tell one of your friends to find instructions how to hack this scope, and inform us how it goes.  ;)
(but don't wait too  much, google will soon find this thread  ;D )
today, your friend would mostly find 1052 hacking info. other info would not be that obvious.

dave will make a review and i don't really care will he mention hack at all. i'm just predicting that rigol can expect higher sales if he does, but i'm not suggesting he will talk about it (if he does) for that reason.
he bought one, so he can say anything he wants about it. and he should. good points, bad points, hacking points.  ;D
i would expect we all give such reviews of the gear we have.
if it's mine, i can hack it.
hell i could try eating those chips and pcbs if i'm inclined so.   >:D

Quote
That would imply I don't how to properly use a search engine.
know how. know-how.  ;)
(you edited/milden it down in meantime...but i'll leave it because you left "much more sense"...heh..but if you prove it, i'll erase all reference to it...)

edit/ it's over, google found us just now, now everybody knows!  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 29, 2014, 09:54:34 am

Quote
That was 4 and 1/2 years - and a much smaller EEVblog - ago.
you seem to be saying that rigol wants this as a dirty lil secret that everybody and nobody knows about?
while you're discussing about it for long time now? and people started to talk about hacking (not just here) as soon as it appeared.
doesn't add up.
It adds up perfectly.

Rigol, like any other test gear manufacturer, cannot publicly endorse or appear in any way to approve of hacking the capabilities of their products. If they did much of the incentive for corporate and professional purchasers to purchase the upgraded models would vanish.

They may turn a blind eye to discussions in forums such as this, but if promotion of the potential for unlocking capabilities which have not been paid for becomes too blatant they are likely to take action.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on September 29, 2014, 10:03:19 am
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...

I'm getting a loaner unit from the local distributor, so no, I won't be hacking that one out of professional courtesy. But once I get my own paid unit (which will take longer) then I can do with it what I please.
Making a video about it? that is always a grey area. Generally speaking if it involves a license keys in any way, then I believe that case law shows that this can be illegal, and any blogger would be foolish to make a video that involved that. This is also why it is forum policy not to host or post license keys (or firmware) on this forum for example.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 29, 2014, 10:18:05 am
They may turn a blind eye to discussions in forums such as this, but if promotion of the potential for unlocking capabilities which have not been paid for becomes too blatant they are likely to take action.
They have already taken action against the hacks on many of the different models - with varying degrees of success. And it's obvious that they would: there's always going to be some voices in Rigol's management saying that they're losing money because of them. And of course, that leads to less time and energy spent on FW development, new features, debugging, etc.

I've got nothing against people hacking things - but I think it's silly to promote the hacks too blatantly. Anybody that REALLY wants/needs to find the info can locate it.

as for forum search, did you try it? inform us do you get results from this page. or would you like me to make a screenshot?
sure
see attachment....
I think you need to improve your search skills  ;)

Try Googling this: "DS1054Z hack site:http://www.eevblog.com/forum"

It really doesn't take much digging to locate the info.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 10:34:17 am
They have already taken action against the hacks on many of the different models - with varying degrees of success. And it's obvious that they would: there's always going to be some voices in Rigol's management saying that they're losing money because of them.

So why did "Rigol's management" allow a 100MHz upgrade via keygen? It's not a purchaseable option, why is it even in there?

Answer: It's marketing in its purest form.  It's the attention grabber - you can get yourself an expensive scope for the price of a cheap one!

(...by being naughty! And with (almost) zero risk!! What hacker doesn't want that?)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 10:40:26 am
You are assuming and you know what they say about what happens when you ass-u-me.

It's more a development savings by not having to do different models or run different designs and test them individually. Nothing to do with they allowing to purchase the software upgrade or not. Just plain development cost savings.

They have started to lock some of their power supplies, and they did attempt to lock some of their scopes.

Is kind of like NVidia, people are hacking consumer cards to the professional counterparts and I think they just announced that future drivers are going to actually check for the actual hardware to prevent the hacks.

They didn't let it open on purpose but once it's predominant and very public, you bet they are going to take action.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 10:47:57 am
They didn't let it open on purpose

You're saying it was an accident?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 11:12:56 am
No accident, just cheaper to use a single design for both high and low end offerings.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 11:15:42 am
No accident, just cheaper to use a single design for both high and low end offerings.

No argument about the hardware.

What about letting people change the model for a more expensive one by pressing buttons on the front panel. Was that an accident? Absolutely no way they could prevent it...?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 11:32:32 am
They tried to prevent it but they didn't use the algorithm properly and the private key kind of leaked, don't recall the details, they are buried in the monster thread somewhere.

The thing is that this has been going on for decades (selling higher end systems that have the same internals as their lower cost counterpart, but now it's hard to leave things unpopulated so they are software limited), also, as you know, the economy tanked and people became more resourceful and budget oriented. Fixing what they usually threw away, getting he best deal if it can be upgraded is more prevalent now, sure you could overclock PCs and some have done it but was not the norm.

If I had any problem with anything I would make a service call and pay up the inflated repair costs, I don't do that anymore even if i'm out of the hole compared to 5 years ago, but the budget mind took hold over the last 5 years.

Development requires a lot of testing, having a single platform reduces the testing considerably, but they still have to absorb the high end development cost so the higher offering. If I can just populate a connector to get a logic analyzer instead of paying for the full thing, or agilent with their upgradable modules with just the part number in some memory to unlock it, it's just reducing cost and hopping that like before no one will peek inside, but in our new more frugal society, they have to try harder.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 11:45:12 am
They tried to prevent it but they didn't use the algorithm properly and the private key kind of leaked, don't recall the details, they are buried in the monster thread somewhere.

We're talking about the 100MHz upgrade. It's not purchaseable. Why would they allow this change via buttons on the front panel if they didn't want to?

There's no way they couldn't have blocked this when releasing the new 50MHz model (which needed some firmware tweaks and supply chain changes anyway - to make it 50MHz).

PS: Why can't they change the private key if it leaked? Yes, it would be hacked again eventually but it would disrupt the hackers for a while.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 11:51:26 am
We're talking about the 100MHz upgrade. It's not purchaseable. Why would they allow this change via buttons on the front panel if they didn't want to?
Only one hardware/software combination to test and they decided to set it up so they can unlock it  via their options route because it was already implemented.

Quote
There's no way they couldn't have blocked this when releasing the new 50MHz model (which needed some firmware tweaks and supply chain changes anyway - to make it 50MHz).
Then they will have to test them separately, more cost on production and testing.

Quote
PS: Why can't they change the private key if it leaked? Yes, it would be hacked again eventually but it would disrupt the hackers for a while.
Because there are products in the wild already so it's too late.
I believe they actually did in some of their offerings.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 29, 2014, 11:58:16 am
I think in certain environments they sometimes offer a bandwidth upgrade to sweeten the deal.  There was a guy here who bought a DS2072 with a 100M upgrade and they gave me an upgrade key as part of the purchase for example.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 12:17:15 pm
We're talking about the 100MHz upgrade. It's not purchaseable. Why would they allow this change via buttons on the front panel if they didn't want to?

Rigol wanted to be able to build one scope and then decide which model it was just before shipping it.

 |O

They also wanted users to be able to change that model by pressing buttons?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 12:35:16 pm
No, that was a side effect of being able to do it at the factory.

 |O

But once the model number is set at the factory, is there any reason the firmware should let it be changed afterwards?

ie. The software could look like this:

Code: [Select]
if (currentModel==0x0000) {
  setTheModel();  // nb. This can only be done once
}
else {
  log("Somebody is trying to hack me!");
}
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 12:53:29 pm
Is not like they expected someone to be able to bypass their security system.

And you don't know if they designed it to offer future upgrades after being sold in order to get extra sales of customers that bought their lower end scopes. Just because they currently don't sell the upgrades doesn't mean they didn't plan it to be able to.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ziq8tsi on September 29, 2014, 01:15:59 pm
Generally speaking if it involves a license keys in any way, then I believe that case law shows that this can be illegal,
Does it?  I cannot see how it can possibly be illegal to buy a device and then type a key into the front panel.  If, however, the hack involves downloading or modifying firmware, then there is clearly a copyright issue.

Anyway, as far as I can see the DS1054Z does not need hacking to be super value.  I am seriously considering ordering one even before you review it, because I think it might go out of stock immediately afterwards.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: moemoe on September 29, 2014, 02:20:11 pm
I cannot see how it can possibly be illegal to buy a device and then type a key into the front panel.  If, however, the hack involves downloading or modifying firmware, then there is clearly a copyright issue.
Politicians make stupid laws, they have to do nothing with common sense.

Here in germany, it is illegal to bypass working (wirksam, not 100% sure how to translate it correctly as a legal term) copy protection – which also includes deCSS, which was already broken for years when this law came out.

And, on the same hand, with your argumentation all software keys would be free to share, you don't have to buy it. I'd say, with the riglol key you activate a part of the software you don't have a valid license for.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 02:37:19 pm
I cannot see how it can possibly be illegal to buy a device and then type a key into the front panel.  If, however, the hack involves downloading or modifying firmware, then there is clearly a copyright issue.
And, on the same hand, with your argumentation all software keys would be free to share, you don't have to buy it. I'd say, with the riglol key you activate a part of the software you don't have a valid license for.

@ziq8tsi, On the same hand, it should be legal for me to obtain your credit card and all needed codes for me to purchase something and delivered to me out of your money because they are just software codes, that I just enter in a front panel (err website) :)

Edit: got the user wrong
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 07:49:38 pm
Yes, that way if they have the programmed scopes in inventory, but they get orders for a different model, they can pull them out of the boxes, reprogram them, and put on new stickers.

Never going to happen.

Edit: But let's assume it did ... they're perfectly capable of flashing a temporary internal-use-only firmware that allows key changes, let it run, then re-flash the latest consumer firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 08:03:27 pm
Anyway, as far as I can see the DS1054Z does not need hacking to be super value.

Yep. I would have bought mine anyway.

I am seriously considering ordering one even before you review it, because I think it might go out of stock immediately afterwards.

The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Magnum on September 29, 2014, 09:52:09 pm

The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html)

Meilhaus has them on stock: http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm (http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 29, 2014, 09:52:41 pm
So why did "Rigol's management" allow a 100MHz upgrade via keygen? It's not a purchaseable option, why is it even in there?

Answer: It's marketing in its purest form.  It's the attention grabber - you can get yourself an expensive scope for the price of a cheap one!

You're perhaps unaware of the history of the firmware/hacking developments. Rigol's DSOs in a particular series (DS1000E, DS1000Z, DS2000, DS4000, etc) have, for a few years already, set their bandwidth based on the model number in memory. My DS2072 thought it was a DS2202 based on it's model number in memory long before hacks for keys were published here.

None of the UltraVision models (DS2000, DS4000, DS6000) had the working code for an upgradeable bandwidth option until it was included in the third (or fourth?) FW version released for the DS2000 models - with Rigol's intention to begin selling BW upgrades along with the other options. But the timing was bad for Rigol (or good - depending on your point of view) because that release happened just before/as the option key system was being hacked here - allowing people to start enabling the extra bandwidth with keys.

Anyone who has examined the FW knows that much of it is ported between all of the various UltraVision models - so the BW option code has found it's way into the newer DS1000Z FW. Certainly, Rigol could have decided to remove that added portion of the code - and perhaps they will at some point - but as many people have pointed out, they are certainly aware of the advantages of the hack on sales, although it's hard to know for sure how 'public' they would want the information to be, before they took more serious steps to try to stop it.

I think Rigol's current thinking on the subject is this: as long as they don't SELL the upgradeable bandwidth option, it's not an actual, sanctioned upgrade. That means that some people are STILL buying the upper-end models, since anyone whose livelihood depends on the higher bandwidth won't risk that the lower-end models with illegal upgrades are exactly equivalent. For those that don't care, the hack provides more incentive for purchase.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 29, 2014, 10:11:28 pm
Did anyone ever figure out the menu 7-6-7-utiity sequence for the ds1000z series yet?

Also, is firmware posted for this model anywhere?  I thought someone had a site where they hosted these things.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 10:32:35 pm
None of the UltraVision models (DS2000, DS4000, DS6000) had the working code for an upgradeable bandwidth option until it was included in the third (or fourth?) FW version released for the DS2000 models - with Rigol's intention to begin selling BW upgrades along with the other options. But the timing was bad for Rigol (or good - depending on your point of view) because that release happened just before/as the option key system was being hacked here - allowing people to start enabling the extra bandwidth with keys.

Right, so the question is: Why wasn't that option removed in the fifth (or later) versions of the firmware?

The only answer that makes sense is that the hacking caused a big spike in sales somewhere, either by:
a) opening up a new market segment (eg. people who buy scopes with their own money), or:
b) taking sales away from manufacturers whose main selling point is "price".

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 29, 2014, 11:00:59 pm
Right, so the question is: Why wasn't that option removed in the fifth (or later) versions of the firmware?

I already answered the question with the final paragraph of my post. But my point was to refute your proposition that the entire thing was a marketing ploy by Rigol from the beginning - the hacking happened simultaneously with the bandwidth upgrade option release - and Rigol tried to prevent the hacking with security measures in subsequent DS2000(A) FW releases.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 11:17:09 pm
my point was to refute your proposition that the entire thing was a marketing ploy by Rigol from the beginning

I don't think I said "from the beginning". Maybe it started accidentally but the continuation seems deliberate.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: littledino2112 on September 30, 2014, 02:13:01 am
Hi, would anybody be able to send me the eevblog discount? Thanks a bunch :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on September 30, 2014, 04:06:47 am
Right, so the question is: Why wasn't that option removed in the fifth (or later) versions of the firmware?

The only answer that makes sense is...

You seem to be strangely intent on proving your point, regardless of the cost.  And willing to extend this discussion, ad infinitum.  You've gotten some good background information and explanations from Marmad, yet you're still not satisfied.

Perhaps if you continue long enough, your arguments will convince Rigol of what they "should" be doing, and create custom builds that work with only specific models, and permanently lock out those capabilities.  (Or create roadblocks that none of the people who did all the work to enable the enhancements feel inclined to spend their time on.)

Maybe you just enjoy poking the bear, but from my perspective, such prolonged public discussion and speculation can yield no positive results.  The phrase "looking a gift horse in the mouth" comes to mind.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gmit77 on September 30, 2014, 05:37:19 am
Batter Fly has stock too, www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z)
also in discounted bundle with HAKKO FX-888D http://www.batterfly.com/shop/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d)

feel free to contact us  :-+


The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html)

Meilhaus has them on stock: http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm (http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: OldEE on September 30, 2014, 06:17:59 am
Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 30, 2014, 07:59:14 am
I have promised some test but today was a busy one. I returned the scope to the owner and I didn't perform any test. Sorry for that.  |O

@OldEE
Quote
Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?
I had a 1054z for few days and personally I don't think it's noisy. Or maybe I'm getting older and I need hearing aid.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LaurentR on September 30, 2014, 08:19:42 am
Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?

Thanks.

I assume it's the same as on the other DS1000Z (I have a DS1074Z). It's not horrible but it is somewhat noisy. In a quiet setting (my house), I personally found it too tiring and swapped the fan out. In a noisier environment (lab with people, other equipment with fan), it should be fine. YMMV.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 30, 2014, 10:42:34 am
Another forum user with a DS1104Z (Rosendorfer) has noted in another thread a waveform update rate considerably better than Rigol's claimed maximum of 30 000 wfrm/s. I have just run through a few settings and have recorded the following using my DS1054Z:

Timebase (ns)   wfrm/s    data points
524 00060
1032 000120
2030 000240
5063 000600
10023 0001 200
20013 0002 400
5005 7006 000
10002 90012 000

(all figures use Dot mode with Auto memory depth, signal source is 1MHz sine wave, single channel mode).

Using 12K memory depth the scope still delivers 41 000 wfrm/s at 50ns.
Switching to Vector display gives 37 000 wfrm/s at 50ns.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on September 30, 2014, 11:20:45 am
Well, it is time for me to get a 'modern' DSO to go along side my 30yo BWD analog and Kikusui DSO CROs.
Just hobbyist work, and the 1054 looks like the way to go at the moment.

Dave, is your sample coming from Emona? and do they still (I think they used to) do deals for EEVBlog members? I'd like to support local if the pricing isn't too extreme.

- Rob.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Nerull on September 30, 2014, 12:13:08 pm
Yes, that way if they have the programmed scopes in inventory, but they get orders for a different model, they can pull them out of the boxes, reprogram them, and put on new stickers.

Never going to happen.

Edit: But let's assume it did ... they're perfectly capable of flashing a temporary internal-use-only firmware that allows key changes, let it run, then re-flash the latest consumer firmware.

Which is still more work and cost than a unified firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 30, 2014, 04:10:00 pm
Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?

It definitely has one. Not silent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on September 30, 2014, 04:38:28 pm
Dave, is your sample coming from Emona? and do they still (I think they used to) do deals for EEVBlog members? I'd like to support local if the pricing isn't too extreme.

They have never done deals for EEVblog members, their local prices are already very competitive.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aive on September 30, 2014, 04:40:51 pm
Well, it is time for me to get a 'modern' DSO to go along side my 30yo BWD analog and Kikusui DSO CROs.
Just hobbyist work, and the 1054 looks like the way to go at the moment.

Dave, is your sample coming from Emona? and do they still (I think they used to) do deals for EEVBlog members? I'd like to support local if the pricing isn't too extreme.

- Rob.

I just placed an order with Emona and it's a 4-5 week lead-time :/
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gmit77 on September 30, 2014, 05:47:16 pm
hello we have one Extech 407760 sound meter in stock, we will try that unit to check the noise level of the Rigol DS1054Z
we will then shortly post the result, hope with some images and video
ciao

Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 30, 2014, 07:30:55 pm
You seem to be strangely intent on proving your point, regardless of the cost.  And willing to extend this discussion, ad infinitum.  You've gotten some good background information and explanations from Marmad, yet you're still not satisfied.

Marmad can never be wrong and I should shut up. Got it...  :-+

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tom66 on September 30, 2014, 08:25:10 pm
Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?

Thanks.

Noisy enough to be audible in a quiet lab on my DS1074Z. Much noisier than my laptop or computer.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on September 30, 2014, 09:30:50 pm
Thanks Dave.

I knew Tequipment did discounts but I don't know where I got the idea Emona did from.  :-//

Hmm 4-5 week lead time....

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: godFather89 on October 01, 2014, 01:41:41 am
My DS1054Z should arrive tomorrow. Can't wait to get home (I'm in a trip) to play with it.  8)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 01, 2014, 01:45:37 am
I'm waiting on that UPS truck today...  Hopefully this afternoon and not this evening.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 01, 2014, 02:14:04 am
Mine Thursday or Friday
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 01, 2014, 03:27:48 am
I've just been playing with the USB/Ethernet interface... you can basically use the 'scope from your desktop PC.

Amazing to see things like this in a bottom-of-the-range oscilloscope that only cost $400. This is the sort of feature that would normally be used to differentiate (eg.) the 1000-series from the 2000-series.

Hats off to Rigol. Again.

I was also looking at the differences between "100MHz" and "50MHz" modes (I figured out how to switch it back&forth between DS1054Z and DS1100Z). On the sort of signals I normally look at, ie. outputs from microcontrollers, there's nothing in it. Less than half a bee's dick. If that.

This confirms my initial suspicions that the 50MHz version is plenty for me (and with multiple channels enabled the two perform exactly the same anyway...)

I might leave it as a DS1054Z just in case it dies and has to be sent back under warranty.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lpc32 on October 01, 2014, 04:22:06 am
Noisy enough to be audible in a quiet lab on my DS1074Z. Much noisier than my laptop or computer.
Does the internal temperature warrant this?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LaurentR on October 01, 2014, 05:17:12 am
Noisy enough to be audible in a quiet lab on my DS1074Z. Much noisier than my laptop or computer.
Does the internal temperature warrant this?

Hard to say. The fan is speed-controlled, likely from some internal temperature.

The usual issue with noise on these fans is that, just like on PCs:
* Fans don't do anything for specs, so they use fans that are reliable but cheap, so they the losing part of the trade-off is noise.
* The fan is smaller (cost), so much noisier (speed) than a larger fan with no easy option to replace it by something larger/slower.

In the case of the DS1000Z, the fan is 50mm and runs pretty fast. It's an uncommon size (for a PC fan), and with the high CFM spec, it's hard to find a good replacement that moves enough air and is quiet. I ended up picking up a Gelid Silent 5, which is substantially quieter, but still clearly audible. It's the only "quiet" 50mm fan I found that moves close to the right amount of air.

Laurent
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 01, 2014, 05:30:15 am
Perhaps someone that owns the DSO (or ANY model of the DS1000Z series) can check and report exactly what the DSO is doing in terms of interpolation at lower sample rates with 1 or 2 channels on? If Rigol reused their code from the DS2000 series, it should be automatically switching from sin(x)/x to linear at 200M or 500MSas/s.

As I showed in this post (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg519934/#msg519934), it's easy to check.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 01, 2014, 06:10:21 am
Like this?

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=110884)

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=110888)

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=110886)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 01, 2014, 06:22:39 am
Like this?

Yes! Thanks for confirming the AUTO sin(x)/x - linear interpolation switching.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Magnum on October 01, 2014, 07:06:42 am
Noisy enough to be audible in a quiet lab on my DS1074Z. Much noisier than my laptop or computer.
Does the internal temperature warrant this?

Hard to say. The fan is speed-controlled, likely from some internal temperature.

The usual issue with noise on these fans is that, just like on PCs:
* Fans don't do anything for specs, so they use fans that are reliable but cheap, so they the losing part of the trade-off is noise.
* The fan is smaller (cost), so much noisier (speed) than a larger fan with no easy option to replace it by something larger/slower.

In the case of the DS1000Z, the fan is 50mm and runs pretty fast. It's an uncommon size (for a PC fan), and with the high CFM spec, it's hard to find a good replacement that moves enough air and is quiet. I ended up picking up a Gelid Silent 5, which is substantially quieter, but still clearly audible. It's the only "quiet" 50mm fan I found that moves close to the right amount of air.

Laurent

What specification does the original fan have? 13CFM?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 01, 2014, 11:05:36 am
first impression..... its TINY!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 01, 2014, 12:10:49 pm
Darn UPS guy.  After waiting ALL day he tries to deliver it to my neighbor!  Finally got it in my hands at 8:45pm.

fall time of tactile button tied to 5vdc via 1k other side grounded
CH1 1V, offset -1.84V, 5ns timebase
rp1300 probe used for all of it in 10x mode

ds2072/300/hw 1.0.1.0.0      1.150ns fall time
ds2072/300/hw 1.0.2.0.2      1.050ns fall time
ds1074z/stock/hw 0.1.1         1.900ns fall time
ds1074z/100/hw 0.1.1         1.500ns fall time

ds1074z/100/hw 0.1.1         1.600ns-1.700ns fall time (RP2200)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LaurentR on October 01, 2014, 12:37:48 pm
What specification does the original fan have? 13CFM?

The fan is a Sunon ME50151V3-000C-A99
DC12V - 0.78W

A datasheet I found says:
12.9CFM
0.14 in H2O
4900RPM
30.1 dBA

The Gelid Silent 5 is:
12.9CFM
2.8mmAq (= 0.11 in H2O I assume)
4000RPM
23dBA

A pretty good match. Same CFM, slightly lower static pressure. My experience is that at low voltage it seems to be moving less air, but at 12V, it feels about the same.
The Gelid comes with a standard PC 3-pin connector. I bought myself the same 2-pin connector the Rigol uses and spliced it (so that I can put back the stock fan if I need to sell the scope or send it to warranty).

For such a high-RPM fan, the Gelid is pretty quiet. Not silent, but quiet.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 01, 2014, 01:33:11 pm
It seems to bootup faster than the ds1074z I tried with the original firmware version, 22 seconds or so and I recall the original was 30ish.

The load/save doesn't load/save the measurements still.

It is one heck of a scope for $375 though, build quality seems a little higher to me now, knobs feel nicer, but I'm not sure.

It is nice to see 4 traces on the screen, you can't beat 4 channels.

I wonder how they change the bandwidth between models though, clearly my results above showed it better off in the 100 mode, but the teardown I saw on youtube didn't show a chip like the amplifier in the ds2000 series...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lpc32 on October 01, 2014, 10:50:42 pm
The usual issue with noise on these fans is that, just like on PCs:
* Fans don't do anything for specs, so they use fans that are reliable but cheap, so they the losing part of the trade-off is noise.
* The fan is smaller (cost), so much noisier (speed) than a larger fan with no easy option to replace it by something larger/slower.

In the case of the DS1000Z, the fan is 50mm and runs pretty fast.
They could add to the specs an extra bullet: "silent operation". :) The price difference between a 5cm and an 8cm isn't much, and it might result in better cooling at 1/4 the speed.

I wonder if it's mainly for the ADCs, and if so, what might be the result of higher temperatures.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dentaku on October 02, 2014, 12:50:27 am
Is there enough room in there for an 8cm fan?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on October 02, 2014, 01:46:10 am
For such a high-RPM fan, the Gelid is pretty quiet. Not silent, but quiet.

Also a good match: Fractal Design FD-FAN-SSR2-50 R2
    Speed: 3500 +/- 10%
    Max. airflow (CFM): 7.64
    Max. pressure (mm H2O): 1.74
    Noise level (dBA): 20.0

Cheers
hammy
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LaurentR on October 02, 2014, 03:26:55 am
Is there enough room in there for an 8cm fan?

I should have taken a picture. The fan is stuck between two sheets of metal with no extra room. I don't think you can even fit a 60mm there. You'd need to rework the sheet metal to change the fan size.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 02, 2014, 03:42:56 am
When my house is quieter in a few hours, I've got a radio shack sound meter I can use to measure the difference between a DS2072 and the DS1054Z...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 02, 2014, 03:48:48 am
I should have taken a picture. The fan is stuck between two sheets of metal with no extra room. I don't think you can even fit a 60mm there. You'd need to rework the sheet metal to change the fan size.

I have a simpler, no-cost, and no-labor method for blocking fan noise: play music  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mandelbrot on October 02, 2014, 03:54:30 am
I should have taken a picture. The fan is stuck between two sheets of metal with no extra room. I don't think you can even fit a 60mm there. You'd need to rework the sheet metal to change the fan size.

I have a simpler, no-cost, and no-labor method for blocking fan noise: play music  ;D

Or run an HP3325 or some other loud equipment at the same time to drown it out. ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: soren on October 02, 2014, 03:58:36 am
Noisy enough to be audible in a quiet lab on my DS1074Z. Much noisier than my laptop or computer.
Does the internal temperature warrant this?

I won't get my DS1054Z until tomorrow, but on my old Siglent SDS1022DL I simply removed the fan as it was completely unnecessary. The hottest parts were the PSU voltage regulators, which got up to about 60 degC. Nothing on the main board was more than 5 degrees above ambient.

Looking at teardown photos of the Rigol, the case doesn't have holes in the case for convection like the Siglent does. Also, the power consumption spec is up to 50W, which if true could be a problem. Still, I suspect that the only likely problem would be cooking the electrolytics in the enclosed power supply. If and when that happens, you just replace the CapXon's with quality parts :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BobCollins on October 02, 2014, 06:43:50 am
I just received my new DS1054Z an hour ago.  :)

Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

I chatted with TEquipment, who called Rigol during the chat, and was told that Rigol will ship me replacements. :|

Not a great start, but I am still hoping everything else is fine.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 02, 2014, 07:01:55 am
Interesting, the DS1054Z was about the same as the DS2072 after a few minutes.  I put the radio shack sound level meter about 6" from the left side of each unit where the fan is and set it to slow responding.  The DS2072 when first turned on was very quiet, almost too low to register on the 50dB minimum, but it hung out at 50, 51 and then kept ramping up higher and higher to 54, 55 within a couple of minutes.  The DS1054Z which to me seems a bit louder, starts as 54, 55 and stays there.  Both are noisier than I'd prefer, but not the end of the world.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 02, 2014, 07:25:46 am
I just received my new DS1054Z an hour ago.  :)

Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

I chatted with TEquipment, who called Rigol during the chat, and was told that Rigol will ship me replacements. :|

Not a great start, but I am still hoping everything else is fine.

whoa, thanks for the heads up , I still havent checked or powered up the unit because of time, will do so ASAP tonight!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 02, 2014, 07:32:03 am
Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

Bummer, all 4 of mine were good.

I chatted with TEquipment, who called Rigol during the chat, and was told that Rigol will ship me replacements. :|

Maybe you'll get some free probes out of it!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BobCollins on October 02, 2014, 10:28:29 am
I just received my new DS1054Z an hour ago.  :)

Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

I chatted with TEquipment, who called Rigol during the chat, and was told that Rigol will ship me replacements. :|


I received a call from an App Engineer at Rigol this afternoon concerning this issue. He seemed concerned about working this problem. He did say this had happened before, but not often. He asked for the probe package numbers so that he could track the problem down.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 02, 2014, 04:33:53 pm
Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

Bummer, all 4 of mine were good.

{grabs the second, so-far-unopened packet of probes and checks...}

 :phew:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 02, 2014, 09:04:13 pm
Mine has just been delivered \o/

But UPS took payment for custom charges (from au pair) that I already paid yesterday....  :palm:

Only a few more hours till I get home and play  O0
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 03, 2014, 12:52:32 am
I just received my new DS1054Z an hour ago.  :)

Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

I chatted with TEquipment, who called Rigol during the chat, and was told that Rigol will ship me replacements. :|

Not a great start, but I am still hoping everything else is fine.

Me too   |O    But just one probe hook for me. No metal part inside...  Luckily, those $10 ebay probe hooks fit well on it, not as nice as the Rigol ones, but still works.   :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hobbyist42 on October 03, 2014, 01:28:30 am
I received my DS1054Z from Tequipment yesterday.  All the parts and pieces seem to work just fine.  I only had a short time to look over the scope yesterday.

Now I just need to educate myself on how to use all the triggering options.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 03, 2014, 07:05:21 am
Everything checked out on my scope :), only thing I have to comment on is that the color marker rings dont seem to attach flush on the probes, maybe it  just needs some time to work in the shape ..also the rings come with spares but I'm missing one color
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 03, 2014, 07:07:43 am
also the rings come with spares but I'm missing one color

With both sets of 2, you should have gotten 4 of each color but only need 2 of each color...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 03, 2014, 07:11:57 am
also the rings come with spares but I'm missing one color

With both sets of 2, you should have gotten 4 of each color but only need 2 of each color...

Yup, I only have two for the dark blue ones, so no spares for those (and I would not be concerned if not for the fact that the rings dont seem to attach tight to the probes)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 03, 2014, 10:05:17 am
by the way, I noticed on the startup display that the 'installed features' have a trial duration that expires after around 35 hours.....if I do not 'hack' the scope, will all these features go away?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: swperk on October 03, 2014, 10:29:10 am
Just to confirm that my upgraded DS1054Z has a measured bandwidth of ~130 MHz, confirmed both by using a leveled signal generator (looking for the -3 dB point), and a pulse generator with a 70 ps risetime. On the system info screen the system software is 00.04.01.SP2, the board version is 0.1.1, and the model is shown as a DS1104Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 03, 2014, 10:30:59 am
by the way, I noticed on the startup display that the 'installed features' have a trial duration that expires after around 35 hours.....if I do not 'hack' the scope, will all these features go away?

Yes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 03, 2014, 10:31:35 am
Just to confirm that my upgraded DS1054 has a measured bandwidth of ~130 MHz, confirmed both by using a leveled signal generator (looking for the -3 dB point), and a pulse generator with a 70 ps risetime.

What was the rise or fall time?  Some screenshots would be cool to check out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: swperk on October 03, 2014, 10:46:01 am
The actual -3 dB point is about 133 MHz using a leveled signal generator. The scope measures the rise time of the pulse generator as 3.3 ns, so I guess the final answer for the bandwidth depends on whether you use the "traditional" 0.35/(rise time) formula, or if you use the 0.4 to 0.5/(rise time) formula for digital scopes shown in Agilent's (oops, I mean Keysight's) Application Note 1420 "Understanding Oscilloscope Frequency Response and Its Effect on Rise-Time Accuracy." Either way, the bandwidth is plenty high for my needs!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 03, 2014, 11:15:55 am
The fram reset is pressing the 5th option button down on the left side during power up.  It resets and starts up in Chinese.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: konablue on October 03, 2014, 11:17:59 am
Could someone tell me EEV discount for tequipment?
I think I'll get one of these ordered.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2014, 02:53:13 pm
Just to confirm that my upgraded DS1054Z has a measured bandwidth of ~130 MHz, confirmed both by using a leveled signal generator (looking for the -3 dB point), and a pulse generator with a 70 ps risetime. On the system info screen the system software is 00.04.01.SP2, the board version is 0.1.1, and the model is shown as a DS1104Z.

What did it have before?

What does if have with different numbers of channels enabled?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BobCollins on October 04, 2014, 01:57:08 am
The actual -3 dB point is about 133 MHz using a leveled signal generator. The scope measures the rise time of the pulse generator as 3.3 ns, so I guess the final answer for the bandwidth depends on whether you use the "traditional" 0.35/(rise time) formula, or if you use the 0.4 to 0.5/(rise time) formula for digital scopes shown in Agilent's (oops, I mean Keysight's) Application Note 1420 "Understanding Oscilloscope Frequency Response and Its Effect on Rise-Time Accuracy." Either way, the bandwidth is plenty high for my needs!

Hi swperk,

It seems that you both have access to good signal generators and know how to use them. I would be interested in the response of an unhacked DS1054Z. As Fungus asked, it would also be interesting to know the measured effect on bandwidth of having 2 or 4 channels configured.

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 04, 2014, 02:02:56 am
It seems that you both have access to good signal generators and know how to use them. I would be interested in the response of an unhacked DS1054Z. As Fungus asked, it would also be interesting to know the measured effect on bandwidth of having 2 or 4 channels configured.

Switching between DS1054Z and DS1104Z is really easy with the Ultra Sigma utility.

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" to go back to DS1054Z

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" to enter a key, where XXX is your key (without hyphens...)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: crossfireprod on October 04, 2014, 02:10:45 am
Has anybody seen / heard anything regarding when TEquipment will have these back in stock?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 04, 2014, 02:32:37 am
Has anybody seen / heard anything regarding when TEquipment will have these back in stock?

Start a quick chat with them, it is easy and they'll let you know!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: swperk on October 04, 2014, 04:14:49 am
Just to confirm that my upgraded DS1054Z has a measured bandwidth of ~130 MHz, confirmed both by using a leveled signal generator (looking for the -3 dB point), and a pulse generator with a 70 ps risetime. On the system info screen the system software is 00.04.01.SP2, the board version is 0.1.1, and the model is shown as a DS1104Z.

What did it have before?

What does if have with different numbers of channels enabled?

Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

There is no real difference in the bandwidth with multiple channels enabled (see the next paragraph), however, the sample rate drops to 500 MSa/s with two channels enabled, and to 250 MSa/s with three or four channels enabled. The memory depth drops from 24 MSa with one channel to 12 MSa/channel with two channels, and down to 6 MSa/channel with three or four channels enabled.

Because of the slower maximum sample rate with multiple channels enabled, there will be some waveform distortion due to undersampling at the highest sweep speeds. For example, at 5 ns/div a 250 MSa/s sample rate gives only slightly more than one sample per division, so fast waveforms can become very distorted. Changing the acquisition mode to Hi Res or Peak has no particular effect, nor would I expect any, since the samplers are already at their maximum speed. Averaging definitely smooths the waveform, but then there's no way to tell just by looking at it that there's an undersampling problem.

BTW, the risetime of a 70 ps risetime pulse generator as measured by the DS1054Z actually appeared to improve by going from one channel to two channels enabled. That was just an artifact, because the slower sample rate missed some roundoff in the leading edge so the reconstruction by the sin(x)/x interpolator made the edge look faster. Enabling three or four channels slowed the risetime measurement due distortion of the leading edge caused by undersampling.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BobCollins on October 04, 2014, 04:51:44 am
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

There is no real difference in the bandwidth with multiple channels enabled (see the next paragraph), however, the sample rate drops to 500 MSa/s with two channels enabled, and to 250 MSa/s with three or four channels enabled. The memory depth drops from 24 MSa with one channel to 12 MSa/channel with two channels, and down to 6 MSa/channel with three or four channels enabled.

Because of the slower maximum sample rate with multiple channels enabled, there will be some waveform distortion due to undersampling at the highest sweep speeds. For example, at 5 ns/div a 250 MSa/s sample rate gives only slightly more than one sample per division, so fast waveforms can become very distorted. Changing the acquisition mode to Hi Res or Peak has no particular effect, nor would I expect any, since the samplers are already at their maximum speed. Averaging definitely smooths the waveform, but then there's no way to tell just by looking at it that there's an undersampling problem.

BTW, the risetime of a 70 ps risetime pulse generator as measured by the DS1054Z actually appeared to improve by going from one channel to two channels enabled. That was just an artifact, because the slower sample rate missed some roundoff in the leading edge so the reconstruction by the sin(x)/x interpolator made the edge look faster. Enabling three or four channels slowed the risetime measurement due distortion of the leading edge caused by undersampling.

Thank you!

I have one other question. My new DS1054Z came with a certificate claiming it had been calibrated using a Fluke 9500B Oscilloscope Calibrator. I'm nor sure what calibration means for a digital scope, but do you have any thoughts on whether the frequency range "hack" changes the calibration of the instrument?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: olewales on October 04, 2014, 05:12:04 am
I've got mine today. First impression: this thing is DENSE. I would never expect it to weigh as much as it does. Thanks to this it does not slide around the bench easily. Screen is very nice but viewing angles are definitely "optimized" to look at it from above . I didn't own an oscilloscope previously but I've used DS1052E occasionally and resolution-wise its like comparing day to night.

Protocol decoders have somewhat limited use but I am very happy about how responsive I2C trigger is to parameter changes. This makes it viable solution to do quick bus scan for addresses in use.

Included probes also feel quite good. I've already managed to puncture my finger with it so I guess they are reasonably sharp.

After some more play-around I'll probably attempt BW upgrade. Is it worth doing a before/after comparison on few Mhz square wave generated by MCU? Will the difference be noticeable?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: crossfireprod on October 04, 2014, 05:14:08 am
Has anybody seen / heard anything regarding when TEquipment will have these back in stock?

Start a quick chat with them, it is easy and they'll let you know!

TEquipment is saying end of October, for anybody else interested.
This is gonna be a long month to wait...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ragerino on October 04, 2014, 07:01:49 am
I'm wondering if the waveform generator from the DS1000Z-S versions can be added by adding the two bnc connectors.
Here's a teardown video of a DS1000Z -> http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s (http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Rory on October 04, 2014, 07:12:59 am
I'm wondering if the waveform generator from the DS1000Z-S versions can be added by adding the two bnc connectors.
Here's a teardown video of a DS1000Z -> http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s (http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s)
[/quote

What about the Source button on the front panel?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: olewales on October 04, 2014, 07:15:07 am
I'm wondering if the waveform generator from the DS1000Z-S versions can be added by adding the two bnc connectors.
Here's a teardown video of a DS1000Z -> http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s (http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s)

Unlikely. Fitting DACs to all units would not be very cost efficient. Also, there is a cutout on the board in place where gen BNCs would normally go so they are either on separate board in ds1000z-s or the main board is different.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 04, 2014, 07:28:34 am
The actual -3 dB point is about 133 MHz using a leveled signal generator.

Thanks for that. 

Did you happen to notice how far out the -10dB or -20db points were?  I'm curious about how fast the falloff is, since in 4-channel mode, the extended BW makes things pretty dicey (aka, probable aliasing).  That would not be an issue, with it's original bandwidth.

In other words, if I had one, I think I'd be more likely to bump it to a 1074z model, instead of 1104z.

ADDED:  that's assuming I was going to be using it in 4-channel mode a lot.  Which I probably would be.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 04, 2014, 07:47:52 am
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

Potentially, that could be a concern.  I.e., software BWL does nothing to eliminate aliasing, because the damage has already been done by then.  (Higher frequency components have already folded back into the pass-band.)  That's why there is a programmable LPF in the gain-stage of the front end, in the first place. 

However, this isn't unexpected, since the chip they're using has no 50 MHz LPF setting.  I'd guess they're using the programmed 70 MHz setting in hardware, which in practice should be fine.  But for those paying attention to small details, the 70 MHz models are only down 3dB at ~90 MHz.  And therefore the more "conservative" 50 MHz BW (with respect to a 4-channel 250 MHz sample rate), doesn't buy you any more immunity from aliasing, because it's imposed in software. 

Assuming of course that swperk is correct (and I believe he is).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ragerino on October 04, 2014, 08:16:11 am
I'm wondering if the waveform generator from the DS1000Z-S versions can be added by adding the two bnc connectors.
Here's a teardown video of a DS1000Z -> http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s (http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s)

Unlikely. Fitting DACs to all units would not be very cost efficient. Also, there is a cutout on the board in place where gen BNCs would normally go so they are either on separate board in ds1000z-s or the main board is different.

Are you sure, that the board woudl need additonal DACs. What I've seen on the video only the chip for the "not yet available" Logic-Analyzer option and the connectors for the waveform generator are missing. I could imagine that a replacement of the firmware would add the waveform generator.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 04, 2014, 09:09:50 am
However, this isn't unexpected, since the chip they're using has no 50 MHz LPF setting.  I'd guess they're using the programmed 70 MHz setting in hardware, which in practice should be fine.  But for those paying attention to small details, the 70 MHz models are only down 3dB at ~90 MHz.  And therefore the more "conservative" 50 MHz BW (with respect to a 4-channel 250 MHz sample rate), doesn't buy you any more immunity from aliasing, because it's imposed in software. 

Does the 1000Z series use an amplifier chip like the 2000 series?  I was watching the teardown on youtube, but I didn't see anything like that mentioned....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 04, 2014, 10:45:39 am
Does the 1000Z series use an amplifier chip like the 2000 series?  I was watching the teardown on youtube, but I didn't see anything like that mentioned....

Hey, Alan.  I thought so, but I could be wrong.  I know the DS2000/4000/6000 all do.  But the 1000Z could be an exception.

[But even if not, it still has to have at least a switchable LPF, for 70/100MHz, so my comments above would still apply.  (Unless it had two of them, to enable a hardware 50MHz mode.  Then I'd be FOS.  ;D)]
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: olewales on October 04, 2014, 11:41:43 am
I'm wondering if the waveform generator from the DS1000Z-S versions can be added by adding the two bnc connectors.
Here's a teardown video of a DS1000Z -> http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s (http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s)

Unlikely. Fitting DACs to all units would not be very cost efficient. Also, there is a cutout on the board in place where gen BNCs would normally go so they are either on separate board in ds1000z-s or the main board is different.

Are you sure, that the board woudl need additonal DACs. What I've seen on the video only the chip for the "not yet available" Logic-Analyzer option and the connectors for the waveform generator are missing. I could imagine that a replacement of the firmware would add the waveform generator.

Not sure until we'll see some teardown photos of ds1000z-s but there seems to be no circuitry handling analog outputs on the main board and it would be a significant waste of money for rigol to include ICs for features that are not supposed to be present.

Anyway, just upgraded my BW. Attached are some before and after screenshots. Signal generated by IO toggle on msp430. I cannot measure effective bandwidth but trace definitely gained some high frequency details.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 04, 2014, 12:25:15 pm
There is a teardown video on youtube.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: godFather89 on October 04, 2014, 05:11:56 pm
Has anyone tried just pressing the source button with the front cover off? Maybe it just works with no modification.  :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 04, 2014, 07:04:02 pm
Searching for 'Rigol DS1054Z' or 'DS1054Z ' doesn't show it.   Got the URL for the teardown video please ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: godFather89 on October 04, 2014, 07:12:07 pm
What URL? For the source button? The source button is present only on DS1000Z-S. Still, I'm sure it's on the PCB of DS1054Z. From the 1074Z teardown, I don't see any connectors for the signal generator. Maybe it's just a software feature.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 04, 2014, 07:20:05 pm
I clicked on Reply to the wrong post.

The URL for the teardown video is what I was looking for thanks.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 04, 2014, 09:18:40 pm
What did it have before?

What does if have with different numbers of channels enabled?

Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

There is no real difference in the bandwidth with multiple channels enabled

Thanks! That's exactly what I (and probably lots of others) wanted to know.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 04, 2014, 10:26:41 pm
1000Z teardown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 04, 2014, 11:05:30 pm
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

Potentially, that could be a concern.  I.e., software BWL does nothing to eliminate aliasing, because the damage has already been done by then.  (Higher frequency components have already folded back into the pass-band.)  That's why there is a programmable LPF in the gain-stage of the front end, in the first place.
The simplest way to avoid that would be to apply the programmable filter at the full 200+MSPS regardless of time base and then down-sample to whatever output sample rate from there. You need little more than an FIR filter for that, which takes a trivial amount of space in modern FPGAs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 04, 2014, 11:55:51 pm
1000Z teardown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c)

I've seen that one thanks.  He was spot on when he commented that it looked like a mixed signal scope could be on the cards.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 05, 2014, 11:02:55 pm
Potentially, that could be a concern.  I.e., software BWL does nothing to eliminate aliasing, because the damage has already been done by then.  (Higher frequency components have already folded back into the pass-band.)  That's why there is a programmable LPF in the gain-stage of the front end, in the first place.

The simplest way to avoid that would be to apply the programmable filter at the full 200+MSPS regardless of time base and then down-sample to whatever output sample rate from there. You need little more than an FIR filter for that, which takes a trivial amount of space in modern FPGAs.

Some DSOs work this way but it has drawbacks and less expensive oscilloscopes usually have different maximum sample rates depending on how many channels are active.  It would be really annoying if the character of each vertical input changed more than necessary depending on how many channels are active.  For a similar reason, a Nyquist filter which scales with sample rate is a bad idea in an oscilloscope.

DSP bandwidth filtering also tends to screw up the transient response.  I ran across this on a Tektronix MSO5204 that I evaluated a couple years ago; the transient response changed significantly between the analog and digital filters of the same cutoff frequency.  I suspect now this had to do with the Gibbs phenomenon.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 06, 2014, 01:49:29 am
Some DSOs work this way but it has drawbacks and less expensive oscilloscopes usually have different maximum sample rates depending on how many channels are active.
That's why I used 200+MSPS in my hypothetical scenario instead of 1GSPS: the DS1000z has 250MSPS with all four channels enabled.

A properly designed FIR filter will not 'screw' the transient response any worse than extra orders of analog filtering do assuming the analog front-end does a good job of eliminating signal beyond Nyquist. To accommodate different input sampling rates when turning channels on/off, you simply need a set of matching FIR filter coefficients for each input rate.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: swperk on October 06, 2014, 04:50:05 am
The actual -3 dB point is about 133 MHz using a leveled signal generator.

Thanks for that. 

Did you happen to notice how far out the -10dB or -20db points were?  I'm curious about how fast the falloff is, since in 4-channel mode, the extended BW makes things pretty dicey (aka, probable aliasing).  That would not be an issue, with it's original bandwidth.

In other words, if I had one, I think I'd be more likely to bump it to a 1074z model, instead of 1104z.

ADDED:  that's assuming I was going to be using it in 4-channel mode a lot.  Which I probably would be.

I just remeasured my "upgraded" DS1054Z bandwidth points. I used the amplitude of a 10 MHz sinewave input as my reference level, as I've observed that the amplitude drops by about 1.5 dB at 100 MHz as compared to the level at 10 MHz. I set my Agilent E4436B to deliver a signal that measured 0 dBm at the 50 ohm terminated scope input. I had only Channel 1 active so the scope would sample at 1 GSa/s to ensure the best waveform fidelity. Here are my results:

Frequency      Amplitude
  10 MHz          0.0 dBm
100 MHz         -1.5 dBm
150 MHz         -3.0 dBm
393 MHz        -10.0 dBm
447 MHz        -20.0 dBm

As would be expected, the waveform above 400 MHz became quite distorted (it looked like an amplitude modulated carrier) because of undersampling, but surprisingly, the triggering was rock-solid all the way up. The frequency measurement by the scope was reasonably accurate as well, except that at frequencies above 400 MHz the displayed value jumped around quite a bit. At 500 MHz, the amplitude dropped to 0 (Nyquist frequency).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: olewales on October 06, 2014, 05:56:06 am
Solid piece of valuable info. Thank you.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 07:01:06 am
I think I hate the multifunction knob.

When I open up a menu with a lot of selections, scroll down to the one I want... it quite often jumps the the next selection when I press the knob to select it. So annoying.

It would be so much nicer if there was a separate "Enter" button, or even if I could just press the same button that opened the menu to close the menu again (selecting the new value, obviously).

Pressing a menu button multiple times should just repeatedly open/close the menu without changing the value.

If you want to go up/down to a new value in the menu by pressing buttons instead of using the multifunction knob you could use the blue up/down arrows, not the button that opened the menu.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 06, 2014, 07:21:30 am
I think I hate the multifunction knob.
Yes, selecting things with the multifunction knobs on Rigols (and some Siglents also) can be a pain in the ass.

If you want to experience very few skips when selecting, it helps if you can develop a specific way of holding and turning it when selecting things: for me, my thumb is on the bottom edge of the knob front, while my index finger is on the top edge at the very back of the knob (snug against the case), with my hand supported by my 3 free fingers. The knob is turned precisely with opposing motions of the thumb and index finger (their positions don't change), and when the desired selection is reached, my grip tightens slightly with my index finger pushing slightly down and back against the case - while the thumb pushes slightly up and inward - essentially locking the knob from rotating during the click. It works pretty well most of the time.

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=73929)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 07:45:31 am
It works pretty well most of the time.

"Most"?

I wonder if we can get Dave to rant about it in his video. Maybe they'll do something....It just seems unnecessary to have to push that fiddly little knob with all those other buttons lying around.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: true on October 06, 2014, 07:51:59 am
I got used to it, but it took a long time. I agree, it's awful. Also awful is the lack of any kind of acceleration / speed control, and sometimes the knob is just somewhat unresponsive, or overresponsive. I don't get it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 06, 2014, 07:56:26 am
"Most"?

Yes, I'd say 98% of the time. Nothing is foolproof.

Quote
I wonder if we can get Dave to rant about it in his video. Maybe they'll do something....It just seems unnecessary to have to push that fiddly little knob with all those other buttons lying around.

Again, this is a problem that has been around for YEARS already: the DS1000E has it (and probably most other Rigol products) - plus it stretches across Chinese brands: e.g. the new Siglent SDS2000 series has it. The Chinese (at least the brands that I have tested) don't seem to be able to properly write the code for selecting from a non-indented rotary encoder.

Whether they add more code for selecting a different way other than using the multifunction knob (which wouldn't be a bad idea), I don't see them solving the selection problem using the encoder anytime soon (since it seems to have eluded them for years).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 06, 2014, 07:57:26 am
Is the issue that it moves when pressing the button, or that it has a delay before reaching its final location.  If I wait for it to stop on a selection, then carefully press the button straight on with no rotation, it usually works fine.

Acceleration would be great for trying to get those large value changes though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 06, 2014, 08:04:28 am
Acceleration would be great for trying to get those large value changes though.

That's one of the reasons I think the DS2000 is so nice = acceleration via the navigation knob.  When I was reviewing the Siglent SDS2000 recently, it was driving me crazy every time I had to get through a large selection of numbers via the multifunction knob.... sooo slow... but on the DS2000, just zip right to the end  ^-^
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on October 06, 2014, 08:32:19 am
Acceleration would be great for trying to get those large value changes though.

That's one of the reasons I think the DS2000 is so nice = acceleration via the navigation knob.  When I was reviewing the Siglent SDS2000 recently, it was driving me crazy every time I had to get through a large selection of numbers via the multifunction knob.... sooo slow... but on the DS2000, just zip right to the end  ^-^
Re Multifunction knob, could this be improved with a different unit ie. with a much softer "push to select"?
It seems many DSO's suffer this problem, maybe it is a symptom of just what hardware is available?
The programmed code is another matter, the Chinese are improving and the SDS2000 improvements during the early firmware updates are proof of this.
Hopefully more refinements to come.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: olewales on October 06, 2014, 08:37:25 am
Acceleration would be great for trying to get those large value changes though.

"Editor" you get by pressing the knob while adjusting numerical value helps a little, but yeah, adjusting things like holdoff could be way easier.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 06, 2014, 08:41:03 am
Re Multifunction knob, could this be improved with a different unit ie. with a much softer "push to select"?

That could make matters worse.

Quote
It seems many DSO's suffer this problem, maybe it is a symptom of just what hardware is available?

Having written a lot of code for movement of cursors and selecting, it's definitely something that can be a bit tricky - especially if you want the same knob to be able to move through selections reasonably fast (it's much easier if the movement is always slow). I'm not sure it's possible to get it 100% right for 100% of the people, but it would help matters if the companies allowed you to set the lower sensitivity of the knob to your own taste with a persistent variable (plus acceleration).

Also, as Fungus mentioned, it would be handy if there were more than one way to move the cursor and select.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ziq8tsi on October 06, 2014, 08:42:55 am
When I open up a menu with a lot of selections, scroll down to the one I want... it quite often jumps the the next selection when I press the knob to select it. So annoying.
If I remember correctly, Connor Wolf mentioned exactly that issue in one of his youtube videos about the 1000Z series.

I wonder if Rigol could fix it in software by slightly delaying the response to rotation, and ignoring it when followed immediately by a click.

As an aside, I have a Microsoft Comfort Mouse with exactly the opposite workaround.  It delays reporting clicks of the scroll wheel by 50ms, presumably so software can more easily ignore accidental clicks during scrolling.  This firmware feature badly broke my workflow, because in X11 the scroll wheel click is just the middle button, and it is not uncommon to click or drag with it.  The delay meant I was often clicking or dragging the wrong screen item.  Luckily the PCB had unpopulated footprints for the side buttons of a different model, and the firmware happily reported them, so I was able to bodgewire the scoll click to an undelayed button and then remap it in software.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 06, 2014, 10:31:44 am
I think I hate the multifunction knob.

When I open up a menu with a lot of selections, scroll down to the one I want... it quite often jumps the the next selection when I press the knob to select it. So annoying.

It would be so much nicer if there was a separate "Enter" button, or even if I could just press the same button that opened the menu to close the menu again (selecting the new value, obviously).

Pressing a menu button multiple times should just repeatedly open/close the menu without changing the value.

If you want to go up/down to a new value in the menu by pressing buttons instead of using the multifunction knob you could use the blue up/down arrows, not the button that opened the menu.

There is a way to select menu values without touching the multifunction knob. As you noted, pressing the menu button changes the value. Having done this, pressing either of the light blue up/down buttons selects the new value permanently.

Doing this can have an advantage over using the multifunction knob in that the value takes effect on screen as soon as the menu button is pressed.

For the longer menus you can also spin the multifunction knob to the value above the one you want, press the menu button to select it, and then press an up/down button to implement it permanently. It doesn't work the other way around - if you use the knob after the menu button the up/down button selection jumps back to the value chosen by the menu button.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 06, 2014, 10:33:32 am
I just remeasured my "upgraded" DS1054Z bandwidth points. I used the amplitude of a 10 MHz sinewave input as my reference level, as I've observed that the amplitude drops by about 1.5 dB at 100 MHz as compared to the level at 10 MHz. I set my Agilent E4436B to deliver a signal that measured 0 dBm at the 50 ohm terminated scope input. I had only Channel 1 active so the scope would sample at 1 GSa/s to ensure the best waveform fidelity. Here are my results:

Frequency      Amplitude
  10 MHz          0.0 dBm
100 MHz         -1.5 dBm
150 MHz         -3.0 dBm
393 MHz        -10.0 dBm
447 MHz        -20.0 dBm

Thanks for taking the time to run the additional tests.  It's much appreciated.   :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 06, 2014, 10:45:45 am
Yes, selecting things with the multifunction knobs on Rigols (and some Siglents also) can be a pain in the ass.

...it helps if you can develop a specific way of holding and turning it when selecting things...

Hey!  I thought Apple had a patent on "You're holding it wrong".

Less facetiously, this is a serious usability problem, that scope manufacturers could solve easily in their firmware. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 06, 2014, 11:04:47 am
Frequency      Amplitude
  10 MHz          0.0 dBm
100 MHz         -1.5 dBm
150 MHz         -3.0 dBm
393 MHz        -10.0 dBm
447 MHz        -20.0 dBm


As would be expected, the waveform above 400 MHz became quite distorted (it looked like an amplitude modulated carrier) because of undersampling, but surprisingly, the triggering was rock-solid all the way up. The frequency measurement by the scope was reasonably accurate as well, except that at frequencies above 400 MHz the displayed value jumped around quite a bit.

Not bad performance at all, for a "50 MHz" economy scope.  [emphasis added]
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 06, 2014, 11:12:49 am
More seriously, this is a serious usability problem, that scope manufacturers could solve easily in their firmware.

I don't agree that it can be 'easily' solved in firmware - or at least, not easily solved for all users all of the time. Every single device I own that is a complex combination of hardware/software buttons has UI mistakes that crop up from time to time (the iPhone jumps selections and misses presses, etc.) - although, granted, perhaps not as often as this; I certainly would agree that it could be better than it is.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 06, 2014, 11:22:27 am
More seriously, this is a serious usability problem, that scope manufacturers could solve easily in their firmware.

I don't agree that it can be 'easily' solved in firmware - or at least, not easily solved for all users all of the time. Every single device I own that is a complex combination of hardware/software buttons has UI mistakes that crop up from time to time (the iPhone jumps selections and misses presses, etc.) - although, granted, perhaps not as often as this; I certainly would agree that it could be better than it is.

Well, I never said (or meant) for ALL users ALL the time.  I agree that would be a difficult challenge.  (Can you ever please everybody?)  OTOH, I do believe it could be resolved for ALL users MOST of the time.  And even perhaps MOST users ALL the time.   :box:   ;)

But we're on the same page as far as potential for radical improvements, that would not be all that hard to achieve.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 06, 2014, 11:36:12 am
But we're on the same page as far as potential for radical improvements, that would not be all that hard to achieve.

Radical? I wonder. The fact that it works about exactly the same as it did on the Rigol DS1052E that I used (released in 2008?) and on the newest Siglent seems to indicate that either the Chinese push knobs in a much different fashion than Westerners do - or that they're having problems getting it to work much better than it does.

Personally, I think the idea of pushing a rotating knob to select something which has been highlighted by the rotation is a bad idea to begin with - in a number of different ways. It's both non-intuitive, more physically wearing on the encoder, and harder to code correctly. I'd much rather have a selection button right next to the knob, but it's simply done as a cost/real estate-saving measure.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 06, 2014, 11:44:55 am
Personally, I think the idea of pushing a rotating knob to select something which has been highlighted by the rotation is a bad idea to begin with - in a number of different ways. It's both non-intuitive, more physically wearing on the encoder, and harder to code correctly. I'd much rather have a selection button right next to the knob, but it's simply done as a cost/real estate-saving measure.

At least Rigol offer an alternative selection mechanism on the DS1000Z series.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 07:23:16 pm
Is the issue that it moves when pressing the button, or that it has a delay before reaching its final location.

It moves when you press the knob.

If I wait for it to stop on a selection, then carefully press the button straight on with no rotation, it usually works fine.

"Usually" is not "always". It should be "always".

I'm guessing the problem is that sometimes you stop turning it very close to a threshold point and the tiniest movement can make it jump to the next option.

This is because it's not a knob with indents, yes, but putting in a clicky knob wouldn't totally 'fix' it, it's a broken paradigm (IMHO). It needs a separate button. The most intuitive choice (to me) is to push the same button that opened the menu.

PS: Some people have shaky hands...it must be almost unusable for them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 07:42:23 pm
Personally, I think the idea of pushing a rotating knob to select something which has been highlighted by the rotation is a bad idea to begin with - in a number of different ways. It's both non-intuitive, more physically wearing on the encoder, and harder to code correctly.

Yep.

I'd much rather have a selection button right next to the knob, but it's simply done as a cost/real estate-saving measure.

I've already mentioned ways to do it better... but how about that great big "Clear" button right above the multifunction knob? It would make a great "Enter" button with no extra hardware cost (just a firmware change - make it act as "Enter" whenever a menu is open).

FWIW: I don't think I've actually pushed the "clear" button yet. Is the "Clear" function really useful enough to be chosen for the 'first' (ie. top-left) button on the device? The waveform already clears when you press "Single" and I'm sure the "clear" function could be moved into each channel's soft menu with no loss of function (Just press the channel button then "Clear" in the side menu).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 06, 2014, 07:45:14 pm
The most intuitive choice (to me) is to push the same button that opened the menu.

I agree, but the Rigol UI designer(s) may have thought that that clashed with the toggle effect when a menu item has only two options.

Thus they chose pressing the menu button to change the setting and pressing the up/down buttons to select it permanently. It's back to front, but at least it works and avoids using the knob.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 07:53:13 pm
Thus they chose pressing the menu button to change the setting and pressing the up/down buttons to select it permanently. It's back to front, but at least it works and avoids using the knob.

"Chose"?

I don't think that method is intentional ... I think they made a crap design and you just figured out a way to beat the system.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on October 06, 2014, 08:10:31 pm
Is the issue that it moves when pressing the button, or that it has a delay before reaching its final location.

It moves when you press the knob.

If I wait for it to stop on a selection, then carefully press the button straight on with no rotation, it usually works fine.

"Usually" is not "always". It should be "always".

I'm guessing the problem is that sometimes you stop turning it very close to a threshold point and the tiniest movement can make it jump to the next option.

This is because it's not a knob with indents, yes, but putting in a clicky knob wouldn't totally 'fix' it, it's a broken paradigm (IMHO). It needs a separate button. The most intuitive choice (to me) is to push the same button that opened the menu.

PS: Some people have shaky hands...it must be almost unusable for them.
Sounds like a detented encoder like in the Siglent SDS2000 is needed.
While they are not the perfect fix, with good code they are quite usable.
Just don't expect perfection and manufacturers should not attempt to do EVERYTHING with one.
Surprising that detented type was not included with all the frustration that multifunction knobs create and is vented in this forum.

So does the famous Rigol knob swap still survive?  :-/O
Some Siglent models use it too.  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poida_pie on October 06, 2014, 08:42:32 pm
Fungus: ". but how about that great big "Clear" button right above the multifunction knob? It would make a great "Enter" button with no extra hardware cost (just a firmware change - make it act as "Enter" whenever a menu is open)."

YES! THIS PLEASE.
It must be simple to change the firmware to permit this function to be enabled/disabled via some system setting
in a future firmware update.
Please Rigol, can you do this?

The multi-function knob on my DS2072 works in accordance to specifications but there are times when you want to pick up
the DSO and throw it against a wall when it tediously continues to pick the next option - not the selected one.
Marmad's technique is not a complete fix, it merely reduces the annoyance to some degree. Not still tolerable by my measure.
With an <enter> button there will be no mistaking the user's intent.


 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 08:57:15 pm
Fungus: ". but how about that great big "Clear" button right above the multifunction knob? It would make a great "Enter" button with no extra hardware cost (just a firmware change - make it act as "Enter" whenever a menu is open)."

YES! THIS PLEASE.
It must be simple to change the firmware to permit this function to be enabled/disabled via some system setting
in a future firmware update.
Please Rigol, can you do this?

There's no excuse:

The multifunction knob already acts differently when a menu is open so a function to test if a menu is open already exists in the firmware.

I bet this change could be done in five minutes + half a dozen lines of code.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ragerino on October 06, 2014, 09:28:33 pm
Be aware that the Meilhaus availability status is not correct!

Meilhaus contacted me this morning to let me know that they are on backorder and i will receive my Oszilloscope at begin of November. I checked on their homepage and they are still showing the status as green icon.


The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html)

Meilhaus has them on stock: http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm (http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 06, 2014, 10:15:03 pm
Sounds like a detented encoder like in the Siglent SDS2000 is needed.
It is not really needed: you simply need to code a dead-zone in the software to ignore movement below a certain speed or require a minimum amount of movement after the last stop before accepting movement again.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: godFather89 on October 06, 2014, 10:21:41 pm
Dave hasn't got his scope yet?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 06, 2014, 11:30:52 pm
Sounds like a detented encoder like in the Siglent SDS2000 is needed.
It is not really needed: you simply need to code a dead-zone in the software to ignore movement below a certain speed or require a minimum amount of movement after the last stop before accepting movement again.

I have seen other instruments which apparently did something like this because they do not suffer from this problem even without detents.  The ancient Tektronix 2232 has a momentary push rotary control and uses variable programmed hysteresis in the rotation which is both very simple and very effective.  If I try, I cannot even make it glitch.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 07, 2014, 12:05:23 am
Sounds like a detented encoder like in the Siglent SDS2000 is needed.
It is not really needed: you simply need to code a dead-zone in the software to ignore movement below a certain speed or require a minimum amount of movement after the last stop before accepting movement again.

Much better to fix the underlying problem than fiddle around fine tuning the percentage of times it happens to people.

It's not as if there's a shortage of buttons to choose from...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 07, 2014, 12:11:20 am
Sounds like a detented encoder like in the Siglent SDS2000 is needed.

@tautech - I'm not sure what you're referring to. Unless Siglent has changed their production of the SDS series since my recent review, the universal (multifunction) knob is NON-indented, and suffers from the same problem as the Rigol. In fact, it might be a little worse on the Siglent because of the wobble in the encoder shaft, which is lacking on the Rigol.

It is not really needed: you simply need to code a dead-zone in the software to ignore movement below a certain speed or require a minimum amount of movement after the last stop before accepting movement again.

This introduces a stutter or lag in the movement when moving slowly, slowing down, speeding up, etc. - perhaps better, but also not an ideal solution.

The ancient Tektronix 2232 has a momentary push rotary control and uses variable programmed hysteresis in the rotation which is both very simple and very effective.  If I try, I cannot even make it glitch.

Well, we'll just have to accept your claim that the Tek knob is impossible to glitch, with smooth movement over all speeds it can possibly be turned at. Nevertheless, from a UI point of view, having to push something which rotates (except for the simplest toggling - e.g. coarse/fine) is a stupid idea on many levels and should be dropped completely from design.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 07, 2014, 12:18:16 am
Dave hasn't got his scope yet?
No,

All the Rigol scopes meant for Australia have been sent to Europe  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 07, 2014, 12:28:50 am
All the Rigol scopes meant for Australia have been sent to Europe  ;D

There's none left in Europe either. Looks like I did the right thing by grabbing mine the very first day. 8)

Nevertheless, from a UI point of view, having to push something which rotates (except for the simplest toggling - e.g. coarse/fine) is a stupid idea on many levels and should be dropped completely from design.

Yep.

Actually, I quite like pushing the horizontal scale knob to go into zoom mode. That one works for me. :-)

(Weirdly enough, it's the only push-function which isn't marked on the front panel...you have to find that one by accident)


For frequent menu selections though? Nope.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 07, 2014, 12:32:33 am
All the Rigol scopes meant for Australia have been sent to Europe  ;D

There's none left in Europe either. Looks like I did the right thing by grabbing mine the very first day. 8)

Nevertheless, from a UI point of view, having to push something which rotates (except for the simplest toggling - e.g. coarse/fine) is a stupid idea on many levels and should be dropped completely from design.

Yep.

Actually, I quite like pushing the horizontal scale knob to go into zoom mode. That one works for me. :-)

(Weirdly enough, it's the only push-function which isn't marked on the front panel...you have to find that one by accident)


For frequent menu selections though? Nope.

AR Benelux still has stock
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 07, 2014, 12:40:06 am
Actually, I quite like pushing the horizontal scale knob to go into zoom mode. That one works for me. :-)

Sure, for any function which is a simple toggle (Zoom/Normal - Coarse/Fine), or any function which automatically overrides any drift of the knob caused by the push (any Zero Position) - pushing works just fine every time.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: soren on October 07, 2014, 01:31:10 am
Be aware that the Meilhaus availability status is not correct!

Meilhaus contacted me this morning to let me know that they are on backorder and i will receive my Oszilloscope at begin of November. I checked on their homepage and they are still showing the status as green icon.

That's too bad. I ordered mine on the 29th and received it three days later, so they did have at least some units in stock. That odd "** Subject to being unsold" line did give me pause.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bzzz on October 07, 2014, 02:06:30 am
Be aware that the Meilhaus availability status is not correct!

Meilhaus contacted me this morning to let me know that they are on backorder and i will receive my Oszilloscope at begin of November. I checked on their homepage and they are still showing the status as green icon.


The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html)

Meilhaus has them on stock: http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm (http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm)

I wondered why Meilhaus has them on stock while Batronix is struggling to get new devices within 3 weeks...well, faking the availability status is one way to influence the buyer ;) I don't know Batronix, but Meilhaus offers some excellent RS232 converters, I don't think they need to trick their customers in that way. Let's see if the status changes, when in doubt, I buy from the guys that are honest with their availability, even if it takes longer in total.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 07, 2014, 03:17:31 am
A German friend heard that a new container with DS1054Z scopes will not arrive before November 4th.
Guess I ordered my scope just in time last week in the Netherlands. I'm very happy with it :)

Regards,
Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 07, 2014, 04:42:29 am
The ancient Tektronix 2232 has a momentary push rotary control and uses variable programmed hysteresis in the rotation which is both very simple and very effective.  If I try, I cannot even make it glitch.

Well, we'll just have to accept your claim that the Tek knob is impossible to glitch, with smooth movement over all speeds it can possibly be turned at. Nevertheless, from a UI point of view, having to push something which rotates (except for the simplest toggling - e.g. coarse/fine) is a stupid idea on many levels and should be dropped completely from design.

When used to make a menu selection, it appears to use about 5 or 6 steps per rotation with matching hysteresis.  When used for cursor control with push selecting between cursors, it appears to use about 15 steps per revolution also with matching hysteresis but response is non-linear for fast rotations.  I wonder how old the patent is on control acceleration.

Native resolution is about 1200 counts per revolution using a 10 bit ADC which is a lot higher than the expected mechanical resolution; two potentiometers locked together and rotated 180 degrees are encoded separately to remove the dead zone of a single potentiometer in lieu of an optical or mechanical rotary encoder. 

I do not disagree that it is a bad idea but good implementations work well enough.  I have run across poor implementations before where it was difficult to press the control without changing the selection or position which is why I was pleasantly surprised that Tektronix managed to implement it without problems on such an old instrument.  They used the same rotary control implementation for a decade or more in different instruments but the 2232 and close cousins are the only ones I know from that era which had this rotary control combined with a push control.  Maybe they decided it was a bad idea at the time but their current models do it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 07, 2014, 05:17:02 am
I wonder how old the patent is on control acceleration.

The DS1054Z seems to do some sort of acceleration when you're in 'zoom' mode (press the horizontal scale button). It's not brilliant though, could be improved.

two potentiometers locked together and rotated 180 degrees are encoded separately to remove the dead zone of a single potentiometer in lieu of an optical or mechanical rotary encoder. 

On a completely different note: Does anybody know what kind of encoders Rigol uses for their knobs? Optical? Mechanical? Magnetic? Plain old potentiometer?

I'm just wondering how long they're going to last...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 07, 2014, 10:24:50 am

On a completely different note: Does anybody know what kind of encoders Rigol uses for their knobs? Optical? Mechanical? Magnetic? Plain old potentiometer?

I'm just wondering how long they're going to last...

They will be mechanical contacting rotary encoders. Good quality brands can last for 100,000 revolutions or more, although it seems the encoders in the old DS1052E are known for failing/becoming erratic - hopefully Rigol have raised their game.

Optical or magnetic encoders would be great, but as noted recently in another thread they are still bafflingly expensive given how simple their construction can be.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 07, 2014, 04:02:00 pm
Wow, I thought self-cal was slow, but try saving a big waveform.... Had to leave it overnight, output size was only 11.4MB (4 x 3mb), but it took at least 3 hours to save...  :wtf:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mrbook on October 08, 2014, 03:22:57 am
Would someone mind sending me the tequipment.net EEVBlog discount code  :-+

Thinking about picking up this scope.

Thanks,

mrbook
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JDubU on October 08, 2014, 03:39:22 am
Would someone mind sending me the tequipment.net EEVBlog discount code  :-+

Thinking about picking up this scope.

Just call them and tell them that you are an EEVBlog forum member.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mrbook on October 08, 2014, 03:47:00 am
Thanks for the PM's everyone.

mrbook
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Phil_L on October 08, 2014, 05:32:57 am
Wow, I thought self-cal was slow, but try saving a big waveform.... Had to leave it overnight, output size was only 11.4MB (4 x 3mb), but it took at least 3 hours to save...  :wtf:

I got caught out by that one yesterday saving a CSV to my flash drive, I was certain it had crashed but it finished eventually.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mandelbrot on October 08, 2014, 07:05:48 am
Just got my DS1054Z after UPS screwed up and lost two of the trucks it was on and all four of the probes were missing the contacts on the hooks. I was told from TEquipment that this is common, and I've already seen it mentioned on this thread, but supposedly Rigol is doing something about it? I have three exams this week so I won't be able to play with it much until the weekend...

Interestingly, my free AC voltage detector arrived on Friday while my scope didn't arrive until today (Tuesday) even though they were shipped from the same place within half an hour of each other. I can't even guess how this would have happened logistically.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on October 08, 2014, 07:27:25 am
Just got my DS1054Z after UPS screwed up and lost two of the trucks it was on and all four of the probes were missing the contacts on the hooks. I was told from TEquipment that this is common, and I've already seen it mentioned on this thread, but supposedly Rigol is doing something about it? I have three exams this week so I won't be able to play with it much until the weekend...

Interestingly, my free AC voltage detector arrived on Friday while my scope didn't arrive until today (Tuesday) even though they were shipped from the same place within half an hour of each other. I can't even guess how this would have happened logistically.
TEquipment has different warehouses, so your full order may be packed and shipped in different boxes from multiple locations. Can be confusing the first time you experience this.

Toss UPS in the mix, and those packages may not get to their destination on the same date, even when things go smoothly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on October 08, 2014, 09:21:58 am
Just got my DS1054Z after UPS screwed up and lost two of the trucks it was on and all four of the probes were missing the contacts on the hooks. I was told from TEquipment that this is common, and I've already seen it mentioned on this thread, but supposedly Rigol is doing something about it? I have three exams this week so I won't be able to play with it much until the weekend...

Interestingly, my free AC voltage detector arrived on Friday while my scope didn't arrive until today (Tuesday) even though they were shipped from the same place within half an hour of each other. I can't even guess how this would have happened logistically.

Just another data point.....

I got my 1054z from TEquipment too, a week ago.  Super fast shipping (ordered Friday, arrived Monday) and all 4 probes were fine.  The free, non-contact voltage detector arrived in its own box the day after I got the 'scope.  They're a great company to deal with!  My previous orders with them have been shipped just as fast and I've never had a problem with anything I've bought from them.



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 08, 2014, 09:40:43 am
For some reason they prefer to put the free ac detector in its own box instead of opening the Rigol box and throwing it in.  It is odd though that they never seem to arrive at the same time!  That has happened to me twice in a row!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on October 08, 2014, 12:03:22 pm
For some reason they prefer to put the free ac detector in its own box instead of opening the Rigol box and throwing it in.  It is odd though that they never seem to arrive at the same time!  That has happened to me twice in a row!

I found that really strange too as they originated form the same location at the same time.  I didn't look but they must be using some sort of "super-saving" shipping method for these ac detectors.  They're wasting shipping materials and money but I suspect that many people would not be happy if they found the manufacturer's seal had been broken.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 08, 2014, 12:20:35 pm
but I suspect that many people would not be happy if they found the manufacturer's seal had been broken.

I agree this is likely the reason.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on October 08, 2014, 03:43:53 pm
but I suspect that many people would not be happy if they found the manufacturer's seal had been broken.

I agree this is likely the reason.

Plus it's more costly for them to do so, they will have to change software and logistics to pack everything in the same box.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 08, 2014, 04:37:35 pm
Actually they put it in the box for me. Guess it is easier for international shipments.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 09, 2014, 02:05:10 am
They are opening all the Rigol boxes anyway, to check the probes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bzzz on October 09, 2014, 04:13:13 am
According to the Batronix support, their next lot of 60 (!) DS1054Z will arrive on 5th of November. Half of that amount is already sold, and they expect to be totally out of stock again if orders keep coming in at the current rate. The batch after that will be 100 devices (!!) on 19th of November. Meanwhile, Meilhaus changed to 3-4 weeks delivery time. Furthermore, my favourite shop Voelkner (which is also selling DS1074Z/DS1104Z and lots of others at the usual MSRP) cannot source any of these at the moment.

..I guess it's a popular device, but why?  :-// :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 09, 2014, 04:36:38 am
Hi

I've just unpacked my DS1054Z and hooked up a probe (with the x1 setting) to the Compensation Signal Output Terminal and hit Auto and seen a measurement of 30V (vertical scale = 5.00V.  Is that correct ?

Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 09, 2014, 04:39:58 am
I've just unpacked my DS1054Z and hooked up a probe (with the x1 setting) to the Compensation Signal Output Terminal and hit Auto and seen a measurement of 30V (vertical scale = 5.00V.  Is that correct ?

Press CH1 and change it to 1X if you have the probe in 1X, then it will say 3V not 30V...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 09, 2014, 04:54:39 am
Spot on thanks Alan.  Appreciate the fast response  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 09, 2014, 05:03:27 am
Spot on thanks Alan.  Appreciate the fast response  :)

Sure thing! :)  Enjoy your new scope!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on October 09, 2014, 06:45:40 am
..I guess it's a popular device, but why?  :-// :-DD
No idea. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that it is probably the best bang for buck scope ever built (expecially if we take into account the hacking options)  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 09, 2014, 08:28:40 am
In contrast with Germany, the distributor in the Netherlands had at least one DS1054Z in stock yesterday for a friend of mine. He should receive it tomorrow.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dave3533 on October 09, 2014, 09:11:40 am
Looks like Adafruit has 6 of these in stock, although there is a $50 premium over what seems to be the typical price.
http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145)

I ended up getting mine from TEquipment :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on October 09, 2014, 09:28:46 am
Looks like Adafruit has 6 of these in stock, although there is a $50 premium over what seems to be the typical price.
http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145)

When you base your company in Manhattan you need to change a bit more to help pay the rent.  From Adafruit's site: "ALL ORDERS SHIP FROM THE ADAFRUIT FACTORY, NEW YORK, NY, USA."  I wish they had a factory store!



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 09, 2014, 09:40:15 am
Looks like Adafruit has 6 of these in stock, although there is a $50 premium over what seems to be the typical price.
http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145)
Adafruit need to be a bit more careful with their advertising. The first item in their bullet point list of features for the DS1054Z on that page reads:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 09, 2014, 04:22:03 pm
In contrast with Germany, the distributor in the Netherlands had at least one DS1054Z in stock yesterday for a friend of mine. He should receive it tomorrow.  :)
Yes, they did, not sure if they still can offer it from stock. Just write them an e-mail and ask, you get a reply very quickly.
Their web site is http://www.arbenelux.com/2014/08/29/nieuwe-rigol-4-kanaals-50-oscillocope-voor-e-299/ (http://www.arbenelux.com/2014/08/29/nieuwe-rigol-4-kanaals-50-oscillocope-voor-e-299/)
The web site is also orange colored  :) (pure coincidence with my avatar)

I ordered before from Batronix, and their sales volume is gigantic compared to other European dealers. The success factor is probably a good looking and working web site, in combination with fast and free shipping.
Anyhow AR Benelux has a matching price, despite the higher VAT, and including shipping. Shipping is just as fast as Batronix.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 09, 2014, 08:21:57 pm
Batronix does not have stock, they expect >21 days. arBenelux had stock 2 days ago. Their price is E294.21 excl BTW/VAT, E355.99 incl BTW/VAT in the Netherlands.

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: fabgar on October 09, 2014, 11:44:35 pm
Quote
Quote
In contrast with Germany, the distributor in the Netherlands had at least one DS1054Z in stock yesterday for a friend of mine. He should receive it tomorrow.

I think they got a few more in stock yeah ;) I tried every Belgian, German, UK, Dutch web store, no stock left. Thought I'd try mailing the distributor directly, and yes !
Ordered one on Wednesday, should be here tomorrow, yey :) They are very friendly and helpful.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 10, 2014, 01:34:11 am
Yes, arBenelux is very responsive, friendly and helpful. Veel succes met je mooie scoop en groet uit Nederland.

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 10, 2014, 01:38:07 am
Do they still have any left? (Arbenelux) =)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 10, 2014, 01:53:54 am
I don't know, you could send them an email. They respond very fast. I doubt if they send to countries outside the Benelux (Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg).

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 10, 2014, 02:01:06 am
Ik ben Belg van origine, dus kan het laten leveren naar omgeving Leuven =)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 10, 2014, 02:28:02 am
Oh, dat is dichtbij! Ik woon vlakbij Eindhoven.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 10, 2014, 02:47:17 am
Ik ben Belg van origine, dus kan het laten leveren naar omgeving Leuven =)

Ik denk dat als je uiteindelijk koopt een DSO, velen van ons hier zal een hartaanval hebben.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 10, 2014, 02:51:54 am
I haven't bought the scope yet, as I was waiting on some videos for the LA functionality in the MSO series. But scope will be ordered soon (other priorities now).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: carpelux on October 10, 2014, 03:09:53 am
I just received one delivered from the swedish company Instrumentcenter.se.

Delivery time a couple of days...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 10, 2014, 03:33:30 am
Ik ben Belg van origine, dus kan het laten leveren naar omgeving Leuven =)

Ik denk dat als je uiteindelijk koopt een DSO, velen van ons hier zal een hartaanval hebben.  ;)
Ja Eindelijk van dat gezeur af  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on October 10, 2014, 03:35:51 am
And in case anyone is wondering, Tequipment expects to receive a shipment at the end of the month and will be ready to ship to customers early November. I've just placed my order.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: fabgar on October 10, 2014, 03:40:35 am
bedankt Bert ! ;)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pachuma on October 10, 2014, 06:00:19 pm
If you are in Europe, you can get a unit from batterfly. Most of the rigol equipment I have was sourced from them and they have very reasonble prices and delivery times. The scope shipped in 24h and I had it with me in 5 working days. And they put some swag in the box for you too.
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/rigol-ds1054z (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/rigol-ds1054z)

They also have a nice bundle of the DS1054Z with a hakko FX888D for 374€ which is a good bargain.
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d)

The nice thing is that they have units in stock and they keep the information updated on their web site.
These folks are from Italy.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on October 10, 2014, 06:11:29 pm
If you are in Europe, you can get a unit from batterfly. Most of the rigol equipment I have was sourced from them and they have very reasonble prices and delivery times. The scope shipped in 24h and I had had it with me in 5 working days. And they put some swag in the box for you too.
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/rigol-ds1054z (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/rigol-ds1054z)

They also have a nice bundle of the DS1054Z with a hakko FX888D for 374€ which is a good bargain.
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d)

The nice thing is that they have units in stock and they keep the information updated on their web site.
These folks are from Italy.
FWIW, TEquipment would put that bundle at ~$461 shipped after applying the 6% discount (according to xe.com, 374EUR ~= 474USD), so near US prices before VAT.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bzzz on October 10, 2014, 07:21:14 pm
They also have a nice bundle of the DS1054Z with a hakko FX888D for 374€ which is a good bargain.
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d)

Excluding VAT, unfortunately ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: michalK on October 11, 2014, 04:04:26 am
I’m considering buying DS1054Z but because I’m “young player” in electronics I would like to ask you guys about something.

That scope has 50 MHz BW and 250 MSa/s on four channels. That gives exactly 5 times more sample rate than BW which is enough with sin(x)/x interpolation. But if we increase BW using that hack you’ve mentioned up to 100 MHz the situation changes and we get only 2.5 times the max BW. Can you tell me how that influences the readings and if that can cause aliasing? What is the theoretical limitation to avoid aliasing? How that issue is solved in 1104Z model if it has 100MHz and 250 MSa/s (4ch) as default?
Does it make sense at all to have scope with 100MHz and only 250 MSa/s?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 11, 2014, 04:27:51 am
I’m considering buying DS1054Z but because I’m “young player” in electronics I would like to ask you guys about something.

That scope has 50 MHz BW and 250 MSa/s on four channels. That gives exactly 5 times more sample rate than BW which is enough with sin(x)/x interpolation. But if we increase BW using that hack you’ve mentioned up to 100 MHz the situation changes and we get only 2.5 times the max BW. Can you tell me how that influences the readings

Simple: It means you don't actually get 100MHz bandwidth.

(nb. This is also true on the DS1104Z with 4 channels enabled).

Does it make sense at all to have scope with 100MHz and only 250 MSa/s?

No.

But...it's a 4 channel scope and you can turn some channels off, eg. With only one channel enabled you have 1 GSa/s.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 04:29:28 am
That scope has 50 MHz BW and 250 MSa/s on four channels. That gives exactly 5 times more sample rate than BW which is enough with sin(x)/x interpolation. But if we increase BW using that hack you’ve mentioned up to 100 MHz the situation changes and we get only 2.5 times the max BW. Can you tell me how that influences the readings and if that can cause aliasing? What is the theoretical limitation to avoid aliasing? How that issue is solved in 1104Z model if it has 100MHz and 250 MSa/s (4ch) as default?
Does it make sense at all to have scope with 100MHz and only 250 MSa/s?

It's not just the number of times the sample rate that you have to be concerned with - it's also the BW frequency response of the DSO. At 250MSa/s, the Nyquist frequency is 125MHz. That means, in order to use sin(x)/x interpolation reliably at that sample rate, all frequencies above that should be attenuated by at least -12db. On the DS1104Z, they are not. So when running with 3/4 channels, you should have interpolation set to LINEAR (unless using the built-in 20MHz BW limiter) - which, given the usual BW/10 linear interpolation formula, gives you a truly usable BW of 25MHz.

I'm not sure how the BW limiting is done for the 50/70MHz models. As Mark_O pointed out earlier in this thread, these models may / may not actually provide a higher reliable BW in 3/4 channel mode, depending on how the filtering is done.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 11, 2014, 04:45:34 am
Simple: It means you don't actually get 100MHz bandwidth.

I don't think that's an accurate way of describing the problem, since you do get 100MHz bandwidth.  The problem is that you may also get aliasing.  If you know the input signal is bandlimited (for example, it came out of a lowpass filter), you can use the full bandwidth.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: michalK on October 11, 2014, 04:48:43 am
Thank you both for your answers.

So to sum up (if I understood correctly):
1) 1104Z IS a real 100MHz scope even while using 4 channels
2) upgrading 1054Z to 100MHz in fact gives you capability to measure signals up to that frequency only on one (or two?) channels

Can anyone make some tests or show some examples what is the difference while measuring some 100MHz signals on one and four channels using upgraded 1045 model?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 05:20:58 am
If you know the input signal is bandlimited (for example, it came out of a lowpass filter), you can use the full bandwidth.

Aside from decoding in the digital realm, when exactly would you be looking at 3 or 4 independent signals which you knew were all band-limited to 100MHz?

So to sum up (if I understood correctly):
1) 1104Z IS a real 100MHz scope even while using 4 channels

No, that's not the way I would describe it, but I guess it depends on what you mean by "real". IMO, unless decoding/examining digital signals of a known speed, the analog 'practical' BW of the DS1000Z when running 3/4 channels should be considered ~25MHz (unless the DS1054Z/DS1074Z have filtering in the gain-stage).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 11, 2014, 05:22:31 am
So to sum up (if I understood correctly):
1) 1104Z IS a real 100MHz scope even while using 4 channels

Nope.

It's exactly the same 'scope as the "adjusted" (ahem) DS1054Z.

Can anyone make some tests or show some examples what is the difference while measuring some 100MHz signals on one and four channels using upgraded 1045 model?

There's some in the middle of this thread somewhere. The tests have been done. The results have been published (see the first part of this reply).

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 11, 2014, 05:24:42 am
Isn't there a nice PDF which talks about bandwidth vs sample rate and Nyquist, etc.??
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 11, 2014, 05:31:45 am
The remark about the 25 MHz BW is incorrect.

The scope has an analog BW of 100 MHz on ALL channels.

Note that analog BW and digital sample rate are two different things.

Analog BW = 100 MHz on ALL channels, even if you use all 4 channels at once.

Digital sample rate is 1 GS/s when you use 1 channel, 512 MS/s when you use 2 channels, 250 MS/s when you use 4 channels.

For a 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s is enough to represent the original signal as it complies with the Nyquist theorem.

The Nyquist theorem states that a signal must be sampled at a rate greater than twice the highest frequency component of the signal to accurately reconstruct the waveform; otherwise, the high-frequency content will alias at a frequency inside the spectrum of interest.

More detailed information about the relation between Bandwith, Sample Rate and the Nyquist Theorem is available here:
http://www.ni.com/white-paper/2709/en/ (http://www.ni.com/white-paper/2709/en/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 11, 2014, 05:40:03 am
For a 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s is enough to represent the original signal as it complies with the Nyquist theorem.

Technically true, but only useful to musicians, not electrical engineers.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 11, 2014, 05:54:31 am
If you know the input signal is bandlimited (for example, it came out of a lowpass filter), you can use the full bandwidth.
Aside from decoding in the digital realm, when exactly would you be looking at 3 or 4 independent signals which you knew were all band-limited to 100MHz?
Maybe if you were looking at the input and output of a radio transmitter.  (But even without an example, I think it's important to understand what the real limitation is.)

Quote
IMO, unless decoding/examining digital signals of a known speed, the analog BW of the DS1000Z when running 3/4 channels should be considered ~25MHz (unless the DS1054Z/DS1074Z have filtering in the gain-stage).
It's misleading to describe it that way, because people will think that you can't see signals > ~25MHz, which is not true.  If you said alias-free bandwidth, that would be clearer.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 11, 2014, 06:00:26 am
Can anyone make some tests or show some examples what is the difference while measuring some 100MHz signals on one and four channels using upgraded 1045 model?
There's some in the middle of this thread somewhere. The tests have been done. The results have been published (see the first part of this reply).
Has anyone applied a 150MHz signal in 4 channel mode and looked for aliasing?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 06:01:26 am
Maybe if you were looking at the input and output of a radio transmitter.

That's 2 channels - not a limitation, in terms of the sampling rate - and so not applicable.

It's misleading to describe it that way, because people will think that you can't see signals > ~25MHz, which is not true.

Only people that don't understand what we're talking about. OTOH, using your logic, I could describe my Rigol DS2302 as being a 450MHz DSO, since I can see those signals.

EDIT: BTW, every time I've written about this, I've used terms like "a truly usable BW" or "a practical BW", etc. to indicate that it's not the actual BW of the DSO - but the 'workable' BW in many circumstances.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BobCollins on October 11, 2014, 06:09:10 am
For a 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s is enough to represent the original signal as it complies with the Nyquist theorem.

Technically true, but it's only useful to musicians, not electrical engineers.

No, electrical engineers, not musicians (assuming musicians can accept some distortion and call it music).

The point is Nyquist theorem only applies theoretically if there is no content above the sample rate /2. The real low pass filters used before the sampler are not perfect. If they were you could use bandwidth right up to the Nyquist point.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 11, 2014, 06:11:19 am
Maybe if you were looking at the input and output of a radio transmitter.

That's 2 channels - not a limitation, in terms of the sampling rate - and so not applicable.
The transmitter in my example has IQ inputs, and I also need to look at the LO  :)

Quote
It's misleading to describe it that way, because people will think that you can't see signals > ~25MHz, which is not true.
Only people that don't understand what we're talking about. OTOH, using your logic, I could describe my Rigol DS2302 as being a 450MHz DSO, since I can clearly see those signals.
What's the name of the logic fallacy that marmad is employing here?

Quote
EDIT: BTW, every time I've written about this, I've used terms like "a truly usable BW" or "a practical BW", etc. to indicate that it's not the actual BW of the DSO - but the 'workable' BW in many circumstances.
Above you called it "analog BW"  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 06:52:00 am
It's misleading to describe it that way, because people will think that you can't see signals > ~25MHz, which is not true.
Only people that don't understand what we're talking about. OTOH, using your logic, I could describe my Rigol DS2302 as being a 450MHz DSO, since I can clearly see those signals.
What's the name of the logic fallacy that marmad is employing here?

There's no logical fallacy. My point was this: when a DSO is advertised as being an XX MHz, N channel DSO - that implies that it's BW frequency response is at least XX at -3db - and that it can sample at it's highest rate (without fear of aliasing) that XX MHz with all N channels ON. The DS1104Z can not - period. Since it does not adhere to these normal expectations, this would be no different than breaking one of the other implied specifications: e.g. that a 300MHz DSO has a 450MHz BW (even though that BW is at -9db).

It seems you want to tell newbies and other prospective buyers, "Sure, it does 100MHz with 3/4 channels on, as long as you make sure the input signal is band-limited", whereas I (and Mark_O and some other posters) are pointing out that this is not the realistic, working BW of the DSO with 3/4 channels on. Yes, under special circumstances you can achieve that BW  - but it's certainly not the normal, everyday usage of the DSO.

Above you called it "analog BW"  :-//

OK, true - that is perhaps misleading :) and I will change it...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 11, 2014, 07:59:34 am
and that it can sample at it's highest rate (without fear of aliasing) that XX MHz with all N channels ON. The DS1104Z can not - period.

But with all 4 channels on, 250MSa/s, Nyquist is still 125 MHz, right?  Am I missing something?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 11, 2014, 08:06:01 am
Has anyone here actually proof that the DS1104Z can not do 100 MHz on all 4 channels at same time?

Or are the speculations just that it can not, because it is supposed to have no fancy anti-aliasing filter or whatever it might be called?

For me the analog frontend should just limit the max. frequency to make sure that there is no conflict with the corresponding ADC specs (sample rate) in the path beyond, and my understanding is that a 100 MHz scope has proper filtering by default to take care of this requirement in combination with > 200 MS/s ADC.

100 MHz scope == proper filter in the analog frontend to limit max. frequency to 100 MHz, period.

Isn't the anti-aliasing filter just a band pass filter? How complex can that be?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Retep on October 11, 2014, 08:28:15 am
Has anyone here actually proof that the DS1104Z can not do 100 MHz on all 4 channels at same time?
The DS1104Z can do 100 MHz on all 4 channels at same time, however if the signal contains frequencies beyond 125 MHz you get aliasing when all 4 channels are enabled. 125 MHz is dangerously close to 100 MHz which means that if you really need 100MHz with all 4 channels enabled you might want to look further.

Quote
100 MHz scope == proper filter in the analog frontend to limit max. frequency to 100 MHz, period.
100 MHz scope means that you can expect that the -3dB point of the analog front-end is at least 100 Mhz, it does not say anything about the attenuation of higher frequencies. It is not possible to create an analog filter that passes all signals below 100 MHz with little or no attenuation and at the same time completely blocks any signal with frequency higher than 100 MHz. Even with a very steep filter (which tend to have undesirable side effects) it is still possible that frequency components above the Nyquist frequency make it to the ADC resulting in aliasing artifacts.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 11, 2014, 08:31:37 am
Is all the filtering done in the analog front-end only?
Or what kind of (additional) filtering can be done in the digital stage? Or is it then already too late?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on October 11, 2014, 08:40:14 am
To filter a signal to prevent aliasing, it needs to be done before the A/D. In other words it needs to be an analog filter on the front end before any digital sampling. The closer to the Nyquist limit, the steeper the filter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 11, 2014, 09:20:52 am
Wanted to share a link from Maxim with a nice explanation about Filter basics and Anti-aliasing :)
http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/928 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/928)

They also cover interesting section about Undersampling and Oversampling techniques.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 09:31:05 am
Here's a graph illustrating the problem with the 100MHz BW - 250MSa/s combination - scaled from the image in this Agilent paper (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5988-8008EN.pdf). If the Rigol had a flat-response, it would be better served in terms of aliasing (although not rise-time measurement accuracy) - but it's evident from BW measurements posted by users that it has something much closer to a Gaussian-response. BTW, this image assumes an exact 100MHz @ -3db, which the Rigol doesn't have - meaning it's response could have even more aliased content in it:

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=112662)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 11, 2014, 09:45:53 am
Would it be possible to make an automated measurement with a setup of LXI devices, including the Rigol scope itself, to verify this?

The described setup on the page below should do the trick:
http://pueski.de/?p=99 (http://pueski.de/?p=99)

As the LXI command set is generic for all Rigol scopes, it would be easy to verify this for all the different families of Rigol scopes.

Anybody up for the job of implementing this automated benchmark performance using LXI? =)

BTW: How to inline an attachment picture in the actual thread posting? (As in the above posting)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on October 11, 2014, 12:24:01 pm
even rigol says "break the rules"!
  :-DD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDvZQmYdVtk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDvZQmYdVtk)

btw. why would anyone be surprised to see this scope has less bandwidth when u use 4 or 3 channels?  :-//


you have that data in scope datasheet on rigol web
Code: [Select]
Analog channel: 1 GSa/s (single-channel),
500 MSa/s (dual-channel), 250 MSa/s (three/four-channel)
and simillar goes for memory depth. more channels=less bandw. and memory depth.

you're not looking at a system that has 4 totally separate processors where each has 1gs samplign rate. you're looking at system with 4 inputs but just one part that is doing all that 1gs processing....so when you use all 4 inputs bandwidth falls to 1/4th.

beyond 25mhz on 4 ch sure u can use it, but you don't know what you'll be looking at ie which alias of what....  :P


long time ago i had some nice illustrations of aliasing that would really make this very clear to pascal_sweden (and maybe others) but who's gonna find those now?  :P
but he could just imagine a grid of vertical lines(ie sampling) layed over the sinusoid signal(signal to be sampled), and then what will happen when few sinusoid periods span just 2 vertical lines and you never know at which signal amplitude you'll take that sample.
and how you can't really reconstruct that signal (you sampled) because you lack denseness of that vert. grid...

edit/added/found that aliasing illustration...
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=112678)

alan2k, if you saw this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev121xAt_k4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev121xAt_k4)
you'll see dave uses 1/10th rule of thumb, ie for example 250ms/s equals 25mhz analog bandwidth...

pascal, you would probably use "insert image" tags and then put image url (that you just uploaded to forum) in it...ie
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=112665)
(i've put
Code: [Select]
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=112665 in img tags)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 11, 2014, 03:44:19 pm
Has anyone here actually proof that the DS1104Z can not do 100 MHz on all 4 channels at same time?

It *can* do 100Mhz on all 4 channels. The argument here is over how useful that number is to an electrical engineer.

Question: With 200 MSa/s, how can you trust that the signal you're looking at is really 100MHz?

(Answer: You can't, because aliasing becomes a massive problem as you approach the Nyquist limit).


For as long as I can remember the rule of thumb has been "usable bandwidth is one tenth of the sample rate". With a 1 GSa/s 'scope this rule limits you to 100MHz with one channel, 50MHz with two channels and 25MHz with three or four channels. These frequencies can be relied on. Above these frequencies? You need to start doubting.

For me the analog frontend should just limit the max. frequency to make sure that there is no conflict with the corresponding ADC specs

Well of course it should do it, but they don't because it's difficult (ie. expensive) and you don't seem willing to pay.

Me? I'm gonna relax and enjoy my 4-channel, top-build-quality, sub-100Mhz-with-four-channels-enabled, 300 Euro oscilloscope...  :-+ (thanks, Rigol!)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 11, 2014, 03:53:19 pm
and that it can sample at it's highest rate (without fear of aliasing) that XX MHz with all N channels ON. The DS1104Z can not - period.

But with all 4 channels on, 250MSa/s, Nyquist is still 125 MHz, right?  Am I missing something?

Well, yes, and no.   ;D

You're correct about Nyquist.  But the point you've missed (and you're not the only one) that Marmad has tried to make is that for that to work, you can't have significant spectral components above that Nyquist limit.  And on the Rigol, you do.  They roll off very slowly, above their -3dB reference point.  (And BTW, some scopes DO use higher-order filters on the front-ends, which roll off frequencies much more quickly than the Rigols do.  Rigol probably doesn't do that, because good, quality filters that don't negatively impact waveform integrity are expensive.)

We know that for sure, since swperk took the time to confirm that the hacked 1054z is down only 10dB at 400 393 MHz!  That means you're guaranteed to have aliases rolling over into your passband.  (Any time you have spectral content between 125-450 MHz.)

Now someone clever is sure to interject something like, "But why can't you still use it, if you know you don't have any frequencies above the Nyquist-limit, in the signal you're probing?"  And if you do know that, then sure, that's OK.  The problem is that you don't know that in general, and in principle, never can (unless you're using a different instrument to check, which kind of defeats the purpose).  And if what you're probing are digital signals with 'sharp edges', you'll have a lot of high frequency harmonics that won't be obvious unless you look at a spectral analysis.

You want to be using an instrument that you know you can rely on for the results it's providing.  Otherwise, you can wind up wasting a lot of time, or come to completely erroneous conclusions.  And to do that with the 1000z Rigols, you have to know where its limits are.  And work within them.  That's all.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 11, 2014, 04:16:47 pm
Has anyone here actually proof that the DS1104Z can not do 100 MHz on all 4 channels at same time?
Or are the speculations just that it can not, because it is supposed to have no fancy anti-aliasing filter or whatever it might be called?

There's no need, since it's a fact, not 'speculation'.

Quote
For me the analog frontend should just limit the max. frequency to make sure that there is no conflict with the corresponding ADC specs (sample rate) in the path beyond,

And there you go (again), with what you think things should be.   :o

Quote
and my understanding is that a 100 MHz scope has proper filtering by default to take care of this requirement in combination with > 200 MS/s ADC.

Your understanding is incorrect.  I.e., you're wrong.   Sorry.  :palm:  Which is why people are posting to clarify... so you don't lead others astray, in your ignorance.

Quote
100 MHz scope == proper filter in the analog frontend to limit max. frequency to 100 MHz, period.

Please notify Rigol immediately!   :rant:  They need to do an immediate recall!

Quote
Isn't the anti-aliasing filter just a band pass filter?

No, it's not a BPF, it's an LPF.  It rolls off only the high end.

Quote
How complex can that be?

Well, it can be fairly complex, as it turns out.  You can't filter amplitude without also affecting the phase, of components below the frequency of the amplitude you're trying to influence.  So there are tradeoffs in any filter design.  You pick the right one for the type of job it's intended for, and pricing considerations.

It's pretty obvious you've never taken a course on filtering theory, but that's not stopping you from pontificating about it.   |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on October 11, 2014, 06:09:04 pm
Mark_O: can't one just turn off the other channels to check how the signal looks in one channel mode if you get a feeling something might be off? Then if you have confirmed it, you can safely turn on the rest of the channels knowing that what you see is the accual signal. Of course, this assmums that one is triggering off the channel in question.
Would there be any accual problems going about it this way?
P.S. I know that that would be a hassel and I'm not saying it's convenient. Nor am I saying I understand this stuff all that well, it's just an idea I got while reading the previous comments.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 11, 2014, 06:26:51 pm
Mark_O: can't one just turn off the other channels to check how the signal looks in one channel mode if you get a feeling something might be off? Then if you have confirmed it, you can safely turn on the rest of the channels knowing that what you see is the accual signal. Of course, this assmums that one is triggering off the channel in question.
Would there be any accual problems going about it this way?
P.S. I know that that would be a hassel and I'm not saying it's convenient. Nor am I saying I understand this stuff all that well, it's just an idea I got while reading the previous comments.

I like using an old combination analog and digital storage oscilloscope just for this reason.  If I suspect a problem do to aliasing or anything else, I can push one button and see the analog waveform at full bandwidth confirming my sanity.

To be fair however, I have hardly ever found a discrepancy even on an old DSO and peak detection works about as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 11, 2014, 09:43:58 pm
I was actually thinking about the same. If you need to measure 4 channels in parallel for a detailed problem analysis, just check each measure point separately first on the first channel (other channels not used) in FFT mode, to check if there are frequencies above the Nyquist frequency. After having verified this for your 4 test points, it is safe to hook up the 4 channels to your test points, forget about exotic anti-aliasing filters and enjoy your 300 USD investment =)

Here is my understanding of the Rigol scope and its limitations: The Rigol DS1104Z has limitations in the filtering of the analog front end implying that you only have 25 MHz bandwidth in reality when using ALL 4 channels. When you treat the Rigol DS1104Z scope as a 25 MHz scope, and only use it for debugging designs up to 25 MHz, you can safely rely that the high frequencies that could exist in your design, are properly suppressed with the low-order low-pass filter in the analog front end of the Rigol scope.

But even when you are only debugging 25 MHz designs with this scope, you will still have the risk of higher frequencies right? I mean, even if you use it as a 25 MHz scope, there could be higher frequencies that give false readings? Or do I miss understand here?

Actually, regarding high frequencies and noise. If your design itself is within frequency limitations, any other frequencies in the signal path must come from interference and noise. But if the amplitude is very low, do they still impact a lot? Can someone shed a light on actual frequencies of interference signals and noise, their respective amplitude, and their impact? Can noise and interference beat the Nyquist frequency in terms of frequency and amplitude? =)

What about the other Rigol series, and their reliable bandwidth?
For the Rigol DS1104Z: ALL 4 channels, 25 MHz is reliable bandwidth.
For the Rigol DS2302A: ALL 2 channels, what is the reliable bandwidth?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 11, 2014, 09:56:55 pm
What about the other Rigol series, and their reliable bandwidth?
For the Rigol DS1104Z: ALL 4 channels, 25 MHz is reliable bandwidth.
For the Rigol DS2302A: ALL 2 channels, what is the reliable bandwidth?

The names have the format DSXYZWS

The formula is:  X*100/W
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 10:56:25 pm
But even when you are only debugging 25 MHz designs with this scope, you will still have the risk of higher frequencies right? I mean, even if you use it as a 25 MHz scope, there could be higher frequencies that give false readings? Or do I miss understand here?
No, you are correct - but in general, you shouldn't be attempting to measure signals that contain such high frequncy components (just as, for example, you wouldn't want to be measuring the same signals with only 1 channel on, but a sampling rate of 250MSa/s due to your time base/memory depth settings).
 
Another option would be to enable the 20MHz bandwidth limiter of each channel when using 3 or 4 channels. The DS1000Z appears to be using AD5207 (http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD5207.pdf)s (EDIT: and/or perhaps they're using the HC4053s) to alter the RC networks of the low pass filter - and I'm assuming that they apply the 20MHz bandwidth limiting there.

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=112788)

Quote
For the Rigol DS2302A: ALL 2 channels, what is the reliable bandwidth?
200MHz (2GSa/s) is perfectly fine on the DS2000A. 300MHz starts to push the filtering boundaries a bit - and as many of us have mentioned in other threads, the DS2302A starts to run into the same possible problem (although much less severely) when you run it with both channels on (1GSa/s - 500MHz Nyquist).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 12, 2014, 01:49:55 am
But even when you are only debugging 25 MHz designs with this scope, you will still have the risk of higher frequencies right? I mean, even if you use it as a 25 MHz scope, there could be higher frequencies that give false readings? Or do I miss understand here?
No, you are correct - but in general, you shouldn't be attempting to measure signals that contain such high frequncy components (just as, for example, you wouldn't want to be measuring the same signals with only 1 channel on, but a sampling rate of 250MSa/s due to your time base/memory depth settings).

With four channels on the DS1054Z might be a better scope than the DS1104Z because it has a much harder cutoff filter (above 50MHz).

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 02:16:11 am
Another option would be to enable the 20MHz bandwidth limiter of each channel when using 3 or 4 channels. The DS1000Z appears to be using AD5207 (http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD5207.pdf)s  for gain adjustment of the amplifiers in the front end - and I'm assuming that they apply the bandwidth limiting there.

Are you suggesting they used a para-phase amplifier (Gilbert multiplier with the outputs crossed) or something similar for gain adjustment controlled by the DC output from the AD5207?  That is a pretty old technique which I would not expect in a modern DSO.

The current trend is to do this type of calibration in software.  Even old DSOs do this.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: W7NGA on October 12, 2014, 03:32:07 am
sorry .. I just had to chuckle. I own several Tektronix 2465B's that will do 4-channel and 400 Mhz acquisitions in their sleep! :box:

I paid $200 for each one and they look as new. yes, there are applications where a DS1054Z would better serve, but I don't have to worry about aliasing or finding a decent 50-ohm termination!

dan W7NGA
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 12, 2014, 03:45:11 am
W7NGA, can you do a single shot 400MHz on 4 channels with your Tektronix 2465B? The answer is no.
This is comparing apples and pears.

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 03:48:20 am
sorry .. I just had to chuckle. I own several Tektronix 2465B's that will do 4-channel and 400 Mhz acquisitions in their sleep!

Sure... but sometimes that's not the most important concern. Aside from the plethora of things that a DSO can do that an analog scope can't do, the sheer size of the screens on the 2465Bs would have me pulling my hair out at some point (and I know, because I own an analog Tek too).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 12, 2014, 04:06:39 am
With four channels on the DS1054Z might be a better scope than the DS1104Z because it has a much harder cutoff filter (above 50MHz).

Is this really true? My understanding is that DS1054Z and DS1104Z are completely identical hardware wise. So the analog filtering should be exactly the same. The only difference is a SW configuration, but how can that SW configuration impact the behavior of the analog front end?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: W7NGA on October 12, 2014, 04:10:52 am
geez .. where is the tongue-in-cheek emoticon when I need it!

I enjoy my Agilent MSO7014B you see in the background when it suits the task at hand.

let's be real .. if you need single-shot 400 Mhz capture you won't shouldn't be reaching for the DS1054Z  :)

as far as the screen size, it's amazing how much great engineering was accomplished with the eye-strain and mental anguish caused by staring at a small CRT.

I seem to remember having no problems at all staring at my Tek 465 all day and night.

rehashing the analog versus digital oscilloscope comparison is ... sophomoric at best. good engineers use good tools that fit the application. 

then again, would you trust someone with such a messy bench?  :)

dan W7NGA
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 04:44:24 am
as far as the screen size, it's amazing how much great engineering was accomplished with the eye-strain and mental anguish caused by staring at a small CRT.

You use the tools you've got. Although I'm fairly sure if you had to give up either your Tek 2465s or the Agilent 7000, I know what would go.  ;)

Quote
rehashing the analog versus digital oscilloscope comparison is ... sophomoric at best.

Perhaps... but maybe so is coming on this thread to post another "look at what my bargain analog scope can do" comment.  :D

What is actually more interesting - seeing as how this new, $400, 4-channel DSO has ~80% of the waveform display area of your Agilent 7000, ~25-50% of the intensity levels of your 7000, ~30% of the waveform update rate of your 7000, and ~3x more memory than your 7000 - is how much that Agilent 7000 cost?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: carpelux on October 12, 2014, 04:54:27 am
I noticed a strange ting today.

Received my new DS1054Z a couple of days ago, and today was the first day I had a chance to test it out.

As my aim was to free it from its chains 8) i thought I should test it's performance before and after applying the upgrade. The result surprised me!

I tested two things, a sweep with a 1V pp sine wave until it showed 0.7V (-3db), and the rise time using a Jim Williams Pulse Generator from free_electron.

I used a approx 1m RG58, a Rigol DG4162 (low z) and at the scope end termination with a tee and a 50 ohm resistor. The pulse generator was connected directly to the tee and the terminating resistor.

Before upgrade to DS1104:
Sine sweep: 110 MHz
Rise time: 2.5 nS

After upgrade:
Sine Sweep: 120 MHz
Rise Time: 2.4 nS

To me it seems that at least my sample of the DS1054Z was not bandwidth limited to 50 MHZ out of the box.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: W7NGA on October 12, 2014, 05:07:28 am
I don't recall ever besmirching the Rigol scopes. I think the DS1054Z and DS2000 series are amazing.
I was reacting to what $400 can buy if you need high-bandwidth and multiple channels, with relaxed triggering requirements.

as I recall, I bought the Agilent 7000 scope with a few days engineering consulting income. it was a bargain at the time and afforded me accomplishing my objectives.
it has never locked up, crashed, smoked, or caused me irrepressible anguish .. other than paying for it.  :)

perhaps I simply felt that after 23 pages, this thread could use an injection of analog humor.

dan W7NGA

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 05:23:42 am
I was reacting to what $400 can buy if you need high-bandwidth and multiple channels, and relaxed triggering requirements.

Understood. But you have to imagine that for many of us that don't live in the US, the options for finding and buying reasonably-priced, decent condition (or even fixer-uppers) used-test gear can be much more difficult.

Quote
perhaps I simply felt that after 23 pages, this thread could use an injection of analog humor.

Always welcome - although not always 100% translatable in text form.  ;)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 05:24:12 am
as far as the screen size, it's amazing how much great engineering was accomplished with the eye-strain and mental anguish caused by staring at a small CRT.

Those small CRTs were the "retina" displays of the era and one of the reasons Tektronix continued to use monochrome CRTs with external LCD color shutters in their high end TDS DSOs.  EEVBlog Dave mentioned Agilent doing something similar with high resolution monochrome CRTs in their older DSOs for the same reason.

Their DSOs which used the same 5" diagonal CRT from their 100 MHz and faster oscilloscopes were often driven with 10 bits of horizontal and vertical resolution for 1024 x 1024 which comes out to 240 dpi horizontal and 315 dpi vertical.  The 10 bits of vertical resolution was not even always wasted since the 7854 uses a 10 bit digitizer and most of the other DSOs have averaging modes.  More commonly some of the resolution was dropped but a respectable 1024 x 512 or 512 x 512 was still common.

Quote
I seem to remember having no problems at all staring at my Tek 465 all day and night.

I feel the same way now when using my 7904 (500 MHz 24 kV 5") despite its small CRT size compared to my 7603 (100 MHz 15 kV 6.25") or any of my other 100 MHz oscilloscopes with 5" CRTs even though I acquired the 7904 accidentally.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 05:32:47 am
W7NGA, can you do a single shot 400MHz on 4 channels with your Tektronix 2465B? The answer is no.
This is comparing apples and pears.

Another reason it is a poor comparison, which is pointed out occasionally on the TekScopes@yahoogroups.com email list, is that the 2465B and similar oscilloscopes were high end instruments of their time and still would be considered so if they were still manufactured.  That you can find used ones in good condition now for hundreds of dollars just reflects low demand and great uncertainty.

A better comparison to a 2465B would be a modern DSO costing $10,000 like a DPO4034B and I would certainly desire the later if I could get it for the same price as a used but working 2465B.  Of course you can calibrate (with difficulty) and repair a 2465B.  The DPO4034B is more like an Apple product; when it breaks, just throw it away and buy a new one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 12, 2014, 05:39:44 am
As my aim was to free it from its chains 8) i thought I should test it's performance before and after applying the upgrade. The result surprised me!

It's easy to switch back/forth between the two. Install the Ultra Sigma utility and do ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" to go back to DS1054Z, ":SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXyourkeywithnohyphensXXXXXXXXX" to install a key.

To me it seems that at least my sample of the DS1054Z was not bandwidth limited to 50 MHZ out of the box.

Doesn't sound right to me.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Deckert on October 12, 2014, 09:03:21 am
...that implies that it's BW frequency response is at least XX at -3db - and that it can sample at it's highest rate (without fear of aliasing) that XX MHz with all N channels ON. The DS1104Z can not - period. Since it does not adhere to these normal expectations, this would be no different than breaking one of the other implied specifications: e.g. that a 300MHz DSO has a 450MHz BW (even though that BW is at -9db).

Does anybody know if the DS1104Z supports ETS (Equivalent Time Sampling)? Yes, I know it's then only valid for repeating waveforms, but then again, a lot of the early DSOs did just that - eg. operated in ETS all the time in order to fulfill the analog front-end bandwidth requirement, while single-shot bandwidth was typically much less.

For example, I have the HP 54602B 150MHz (http://cube.co.za/~tva/workbench/hp54602b/index.html) DSO. It can display a 150MHz sine wave on all four channels at the same time, provided they're repeating waves, like that of a sine wave generator. The scope itself only as a 20MSa/sec ADC, so realistically one-shot captures are limited to no more than 2MHz on one channel.

I'd be happy with ETS for the 4-channel, 100MHz usage scenario.

--deckert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 09:18:45 am
Does anybody know if the DS1104Z supports ETS (Equivalent Time Sampling)?

No, none of the Rigol UltraVision DSOs do.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 09:38:49 am
Does anybody know if the DS1104Z supports ETS (Equivalent Time Sampling)?

No, none of the Rigol UltraVision DSOs do.

I disagree with the simplicity of this answer.  They have something functionally equivalent.

On an ETS oscilloscope, the trigger to clock delay is measured which allows the samples to be aligned before any reconstruction is applied.  This allows timing measurements to the resolution of the time delay counter.

On a DPO style oscilloscope using only digital triggering, the reconstruction happens before triggering which yields a comparable trigger to clock delay measurement.  If this did not happen, then timing measurements would be limited to the base sample rate which even at 1 GS/s would only be 1 nanosecond which is pretty poor.  At 250 MS/s, it would be 4 nanoseconds which is completely unacceptable in a 100 MHz instrument.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 10:37:39 am
I disagree with the simplicity of this answer.
What a surprise!  :)

Quote
They have something functionally equivalent.
This is yet another new theory of yours.  ;D

Quote
On a DPO style oscilloscope using only digital triggering...
But who said the Rigol UltraVision scopes are only using digital triggering? It's not specified in any Rigol datasheets.

Quote
...the reconstruction happens before triggering which yields a comparable trigger to clock delay measurement.  If this did not happen, then timing measurements would be limited to the base sample rate which even at 1 GS/s would only be 1 nanosecond which is pretty poor.
Why don't you look at a DPO that is actually advertised as using a digital trigger? Such as the Siglent SDS2000 (http://www.siglent.com/DataSheet/EN/SDS2000_DataSheet_EN.pdf) - a 2GSa/s DSO (just like the Rigol DS2000) - that, according to it's datasheet, has a trigger timing and resolution of precisely 1ns.

Normally, when people talk about ETS, they're talking about the ability to sample at higher than RT rates. Even if what you're describing is functionally equivalent inside the DSO, it's operationally completely different - and thus irrelevant - to the end user of the DSO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 12:57:16 pm
On a DPO style oscilloscope using only digital triggering...
But who said the Rigol UltraVision scopes are only using digital triggering? It's not specified in any Rigol datasheets.

That is right.  It is not specified in any datasheets or manuals.

If Rigol got off their asses and wrote some real documentation, we would not have to conduct extraneous experiments or make educated guesses about how their oscilloscopes actually function, what they can do, and how they perform.

If they are *not* using only digital triggering, then what are they using in addition?  Are their any analog DSO triggers which are not used to support ETS except in toys?

Quote
Quote
...the reconstruction happens before triggering which yields a comparable trigger to clock delay measurement.  If this did not happen, then timing measurements would be limited to the base sample rate which even at 1 GS/s would only be 1 nanosecond which is pretty poor.
Why don't you look at a DPO that is actually advertised as using a digital trigger? Such as the Siglent SDS2000 (http://www.siglent.com/DataSheet/EN/SDS2000_DataSheet_EN.pdf) - a 2GSa/s DSO (just like the Rigol DS2000) - that, according to it's datasheet, has a trigger timing and resolution of precisely 1ns.

And then I will look at the early LeCroy DSOs which were advertised as having digital triggers and find that they had timing resolution significantly higher than their real time sample rate would suggest.

Quote
Normally, when people talk about ETS, they're talking about the ability to sample at higher than RT rates. Even if what you're describing is functionally equivalent inside the DSO, it's operationally completely different - and thus irrelevant - to the end user of the DSO.

It is relevant to an end user who expects ETS like performance out of his DSO which says nothing about ETS in its documentation or marketing.  Are you suggesting these Rigol oscilloscopes are crippled compared to the obsolete ETS oscilloscopes they replaced?

Capture a pair of synchronous high frequency sine waves in single shot mode and measure the resolution of the delay between them.  Or do the same with one or more fast transition edges which displays pattern sensitive jitter or controlled delay.  Can these oscilloscopes make these measurements?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 12, 2014, 02:09:20 pm
Hi, Creep.  I suspect this has already been addressed at this point, but since you asked me directly...

Mark_O: can't one just turn off the other channels to check how the signal looks in one channel mode if you get a feeling something might be off? Then if you have confirmed it, you can safely turn on the rest of the channels knowing that what you see is the accual signal. Of course, this assmums that one is triggering off the channel in question.
Would there be any accual problems going about it this way?

Yes, this would work.  And no, there are no actual problems with doing so.  One could either do it preemptively, using a single enabled channel to probe the DUT, looking for high-frequency content.  And even use the FFT to check for higher amplitude content in the no-no part of the spectrum.  OR, just proceed without, and only fall back to check if your testing suggests that something may be amiss.

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P.S. I know that that would be a hassel and I'm not saying it's convenient. Nor am I saying I understand this stuff all that well, it's just an idea I got while reading the previous comments.

Your understanding is fine, and it doesn't have to be a huge hassle.  It is an extra thing to remain aware of, and could cost you some time.  And time is often something a professional engineer is trying to optimize.  But the 1000z-series are versatile scopes, and very usable. 

If I were using one in 4-channel mode, but in too big a hurry to check, I'd just enable the 20 MHz BWL.  And if that were insufficient, I'd just use one of my other DSOs, that didn't have that constraint.  But though I have quite a few scopes, only a couple of my Tek's and one LeCroy exceed the Rigol's capabilities on 4-channels.  And they're not nearly as compact.

~~

One thing folks need to keep in mind is that people like Marmad are simply trying to provide an education, by calling attention to the limitations of the instruments we're using.  The educators aren't saying "don't even try to use it", or "the thing is worthless".  Just that you can't go in blindly.

If you think that's not possible or even likely, consider this scenario.  Someone who reads the EEVBlog see's the discussion on the 1054z, and the great price, and decides to pick one up, and hacks it to a 1104z model, with "100 MHz bandwidth".  And, like pascal_sweden, assumes that a 100 MHz scope is always fine for examining 100 MHz signals.  So he hooks it up to the embedded system he's working on, and starts looking at the SPI bus.  Since the 1000z series supports all 4 of the required channels (MOSI, MISO, CS, and CLK) he can do that easily.

Nowadays, SPI busses aren't just 2 MHz, or 5, or 8 MHz.  I've got one here that's running at 60 MHz, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear about faster.  So let's say he's looking at that signal on his embedded system.  He's perplexed, because he can't get the darn thing to decode properly.  It should work (a la, pascal), because it's "only" 60 MHz.  But there are numerous problems that prevent it.  First off, the scope isn't capturing fast enough to determine where the edges of the pulses are, with any certainty.  (And the Rigol can't sync to the clock... it's async.)  But there's also a lot of large-amplitude spectral content, way past the Nyquist limit, that the Rigol will do nothing to ameliorate.  That will fold over into the passband, and depending where the trigger levels are set, could be of high enough amplitude to completely corrupt the decoded stream on the SPI bus.  But even rare, sporadic, corruption is extremely undesirable, if not totally unacceptable.

Now he's going to be pretty unhappy.  He bought something thinking he knew what it could do for him.  And it's not working.  So the first conclusion is that it's broken.  We've seen that here more than once, and I saw it all the time back when I was discussing similar topics on the RC Groups forum.  "The scope's no good.  It doesn't work."  And lots of time wasted.  All because folks were unaware of the limitations of the test instruments they're using.

Having that knowledge in advance will enable them to work smarter, not harder, and get better results they can be confident about.  And spend less time scratching their heads, trying to figure out what's wrong with their DSO, and more time focusing on what's wrong with their circuit/system.  That is the goal, after all.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 12, 2014, 04:08:19 pm
...the reconstruction happens before triggering which yields a comparable trigger to clock delay measurement.  If this did not happen, then timing measurements would be limited to the base sample rate which even at 1 GS/s would only be 1 nanosecond which is pretty poor.

In depends on context whether a 1 ns timing measurement is poor or not.

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And then I will look at the early LeCroy DSOs which were advertised as having digital triggers and find that they had timing resolution significantly higher than their real time sample rate would suggest.

That's true, but so what?  I have a 9300-series LeCroy, and two 9400-series.  And you are correct about their timing resolution/capabilities.  But they all had ETS (well, RIS), so they got that for "free", because they had a clock (or facsimile thereof) that ran 40x-50x faster.  I see interpolation capabilities in the ps range.  Back about 50 years ago, when I was using LeCroy scopes in the Physics labs at the Uni, picosecond events were extremely important.  But the current "affordable" scopes we're talking about were never intended for that purpose.

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It is relevant to an end user who expects ETS like performance out of his DSO which says nothing about ETS in its documentation or marketing.

Why would anyone expect that?   :-//  If it says nothing about some aspect of its performance, I have no expectations.

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Are you suggesting these Rigol oscilloscopes are crippled compared to the obsolete ETS oscilloscopes they replaced?

Marmad may not, but I would.  Though I wouldn't use the word crippled.  They're simply more limited, in some ways.  And I also don't understand why it would surprise you that scopes designed to sell for 50x less, would be less capable in some regards?

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Capture a pair of synchronous high frequency sine waves in single shot mode and measure the resolution of the delay between them.  Or do the same with one or more fast transition edges which displays pattern sensitive jitter or controlled delay.  Can these oscilloscopes make these measurements?

No.  Not really.  Not effectively.  The 1000z series doesn't specify, but the higher-performance 2000-series can have up to 2 ns of skew (nominally 1 ns) between the two channels.  That's up to 4 clock periods at it's max sample rate.  And there's enough jitter in their trigger systems (somewhere between 4-8 ns, IIRC) to make that look small by comparison.

The smallest resolution on any trigger-related setting in the 1000z specs is 8 ns, and for the 2000 series is 2 ns.  Step increments are 4 ns* and 1 ns, respectively.  What does that tell you?


*AFAIK.  I hope Marmad (or anyone with those Rigols) will correct me, if that is incorrect about the step-size.  The setting may be less, even if it can't really honor it.  But the 1000z may have a 1 GHz clock, even when it's not using it to drive sampling directly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 05:57:03 pm
...the reconstruction happens before triggering which yields a comparable trigger to clock delay measurement.  If this did not happen, then timing measurements would be limited to the base sample rate which even at 1 GS/s would only be 1 nanosecond which is pretty poor.

In depends on context whether a 1 ns timing measurement is poor or not.

I would consider it poor for an oscilloscope specified to have a 3.5 nanosecond transition time or 100 MHz bandwidth but I would agree it also depends on the context of what is being measured; most people are not measuring anything which requires this level of precision and if they are, they are using an oscilloscope more suited to the task.

But to borrow and scale a phrase, a 100 MHz oscilloscope cannot track a 2.5 nanosecond edge but it should be able to measure a delay of 1.0 nanoseconds between two such edges.

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And then I will look at the early LeCroy DSOs which were advertised as having digital triggers and find that they had timing resolution significantly higher than their real time sample rate would suggest.

That's true, but so what?  I have a 9300-series LeCroy, and two 9400-series.  And you are correct about their timing resolution/capabilities.  But they all had ETS (well, RIS), so they got that for "free", because they had a clock (or facsimile thereof) that ran 40x-50x faster.  I see interpolation capabilities in the ps range.  Back about 50 years ago, when I was using LeCroy scopes in the Physics labs at the Uni, picosecond events were extremely important.  But the current "affordable" scopes we're talking about were never intended for that purpose.

So what was the facsimile of the clock which allowed high resolution delay measurements?  RIS as they describe it sure sounds like what I described where transition midpoint timing (*) is derived after reconstruction.

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It is relevant to an end user who expects ETS like performance out of his DSO which says nothing about ETS in its documentation or marketing.

Why would anyone expect that?   :-//  If it says nothing about some aspect of its performance, I have no expectations.

I tried to answer the question taking into account its apparent context.

The Rigol user manual is explicit about supporting a timebase scale of 5 ns/div.  Without interpolation or reconstruction at 250 MS/s, that would produce a pretty awful looking display of a 3.5 nanosecond transition time signal (single-shot or not) when the display resolution indicates that about a difference of 100 picoseconds should be visible; 800 points / 12 divisions = 66 points per division in the display record but some of that is used by the UI so 50 points per division is more realistic.  That then comes out to 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.  Coincidentally, the delay calibration is *specified* in the user manual to be 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.

If it is not possible to see 100 picoseconds of delay difference using this oscilloscope, then it is odd that the delay compensation would support that resolution.  Why support it if it cannot be seen anyway?

That is also insignificantly worse than the oldest 100 MHz ETS DSOs that I know of can do.

Now maybe the DS1104Z cannot do the above with a single shot acquisition, but it sure should be able to because it is not difficult and the hardware is capable of supporting it.

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Are you suggesting these Rigol oscilloscopes are crippled compared to the obsolete ETS oscilloscopes they replaced?

Marmad may not, but I would.  Though I wouldn't use the word crippled.  They're simply more limited, in some ways.  And I also don't understand why it would surprise you that scopes designed to sell for 50x less, would be less capable in some regards?

Considering my known antipathy toward Rigol, I find it odd to be arguing for the virtue of their recent instruments while it seems at least to me that others are arguing that they are less capable.

These oscilloscopes *are* less expensive but counter intuitively, I think that is why they use digital triggering instead of including the hardware to make a traditional TDC measurement to support ETS.  The former should have some additional limitations do to aliasing while still producing time resolution comparable to that provided by ETS hardware.

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Capture a pair of synchronous high frequency sine waves in single shot mode and measure the resolution of the delay between them.  Or do the same with one or more fast transition edges which displays pattern sensitive jitter or controlled delay.  Can these oscilloscopes make these measurements?

No.  Not really.  Not effectively.  The 1000z series doesn't specify, but the higher-performance 2000-series can have up to 2 ns of skew (nominally 1 ns) between the two channels.  That's up to 4 clock periods at it's max sample rate.  And there's enough jitter in their trigger systems (somewhere between 4-8 ns, IIRC) to make that look small by comparison.

I think that skew specification has to do with operating the ADCs without interleaving on multiple channels where a different phases of the synchronous clock are used.  This certainly fits with the variation in maximum sample rate when a different number of channels is used.  Reconstruction should correct for that and produce horizontally aligned traces.

I have been speculating over the past couple of weeks that the digital trigger on these DSOs is noisy because of aliasing some of which is produced in the digitizer beyond the reach of any front end antialias filter.

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The smallest resolution on any trigger-related setting in the 1000z specs is 8 ns, and for the 2000 series is 2 ns.  Step increments are 4 ns* and 1 ns, respectively.  What does that tell you?

It tells me that that is a limitation in the settability of their special triggers.  This is not unusual even in higher end DSOs.

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*AFAIK.  I hope Marmad (or anyone with those Rigols) will correct me, if that is incorrect about the step-size.  The setting may be less, even if it can't really honor it.  But the 1000z may have a 1 GHz clock, even when it's not using it to drive sampling directly.

I wish someone would do the basic simple tests which would reveal how exactly these DSOs perform and then compile a wiki with the results.  I would do it myself but lack the necessary hardware, namely the DSO.

(*) The online reference I like to give for various TDC designs is currently down do to hosting issues but the relevant part of the description for a transition midpoint timing TDC is "A resolution of around 10ps or so is possible when using a 16 bit pipeline ADC clocked at 80MHz or more."  As I recall, these were popular in particle collision experiments because of their adequate resolution and accuracy and their very high measurement rate.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 12, 2014, 06:26:31 pm
Nowadays, SPI busses aren't just 2 MHz, or 5, or 8 MHz.  I've got one here that's running at 60 MHz, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear about faster.  So let's say he's looking at that signal on his embedded system.  He's perplexed, because he can't get the darn thing to decode properly.  It should work (a la, pascal), because it's "only" 60 MHz.  But there are numerous problems that prevent it.

Yep. This is why discussing Nyquist limits is a mistake in relation to DSOs. The "ten to one" rule for sample rate vs. bandwidth isn't predicted by theory, it comes from experience working with real signals.

nb. Theory can justify the rule (hindsight vision is 20:20...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 10:05:03 pm
The Rigol user manual is explicit about supporting a timebase scale of 5 ns/div.

Yes, given it's maximum sample rate of 1GSa/s.

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Without interpolation or reconstruction at 250 MS/s, that would produce a pretty awful looking display of a 3.5 nanosecond transition time signal (single-shot or not)

Who would think that the DSO could produce a decent looking 3.5ns rise time without interpolation when it's only sampling every 4ns? When looking at 5ns/div @ 250MSa/s (unless you're just examining the paltry 15 acquired sample points), the entire displayed waveform is nothing but interpolation. Expecting 'detail' at that time base and sample rate is fairly silly.

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I wish someone would do the basic simple tests which would reveal how exactly these DSOs perform and then compile a wiki with the results.  I would do it myself but lack the necessary hardware, namely the DSO.

Virtually ANYTHING can be bought and returned within 30 days if you're willing to absorb the shipping costs. Instead of posting new speculation every few days (a couple of weeks ago it was that the Rigol secretly turned off sin(x)/x interpolation at higher sample rates to hide interleaving errors), perhaps you should get one of the scopes, run the tests you want and post your results - returning the DSO afterwards. I would be curious to see your results, and no offense, but judging by your posting frequency here, you have the requisite free time.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 11:50:39 pm
The Rigol user manual is explicit about supporting a timebase scale of 5 ns/div.

Yes, given it's maximum sample rate of 1GSa/s.

Great!  So where in the manual does it say that the fastest timebase scale is slower when more channels are used?  I must have missed that or maybe Rigol left it out.

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Without interpolation or reconstruction at 250 MS/s, that would produce a pretty awful looking display of a 3.5 nanosecond transition time signal (single-shot or not)

Who would think that the DSO could produce a decent looking 3.5ns rise time without interpolation when it's only sampling every 4ns? When looking at 5ns/div @ 250MSa/s (unless you're just examining the paltry 15 acquired sample points), the entire displayed waveform is nothing but interpolation. Expecting 'detail' at that time base and sample rate is fairly silly.

Didn't I just say this above?  I obviously do not expect any detail faster than the analog bandwidth or between sample points but I do expect sin(x)/x reconstruction to produce something closely resembling a 3.5 nanosecond transition.  All of the necessary information baring aliasing is there.  The sample points should still be on the original waveform within the the limitations of the analog bandwidth.

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I wish someone would do the basic simple tests which would reveal how exactly these DSOs perform and then compile a wiki with the results.  I would do it myself but lack the necessary hardware, namely the DSO.

Virtually ANYTHING can be bought and returned within 30 days if you're willing to absorb the shipping costs. Instead of posting new speculation every few days (a couple of weeks ago it was that the Rigol secretly turned off sin(x)/x interpolation at higher sample rates to hide interleaving errors), perhaps you should get one of the scopes, run the tests you want and post your results - returning the DSO afterwards. I would be curious to see your results, and no offense, but judging by your posting frequency here, you have the requisite free time.  :)

I still suspect they took steps to hide interleaving and aliasing errors.  Run the above test and find out.  It will show a sin(x)/x reconstruction problem or rather sin(x)/x reconstruction will reveal aliasing of a sine wave which is below the Nyquist frequency.

As far as buying and then returning an item I never intended to keep, I consider that rather dishonest.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 13, 2014, 12:19:47 am
Nowadays, SPI busses aren't just 2 MHz, or 5, or 8 MHz.  I've got one here that's running at 60 MHz, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear about faster.  So let's say he's looking at that signal on his embedded system.  He's perplexed, because he can't get the darn thing to decode properly.  It should work (a la, pascal), because it's "only" 60 MHz.  But there are numerous problems that prevent it.

Yep. This is why discussing Nyquist limits is a mistake in relation to DSOs. The "ten to one" rule for sample rate vs. bandwidth isn't predicted by theory, it comes from experience working with real signals.

nb. Theory can justify the rule (hindsight vision is 20:20...)

I think it is a mistake as well.

The rule I usually use is related to capturing the 5th harmonic of a square wave with reasonable accuracy however most applications involve edges where transition time is a more realistic benchmark and that results in a similar rule.  If bandwidth is high enough, then sampling rate places somewhat of a limit on edge placement but not an absolute one.  Part of the difficulty here is using an oscilloscope in place of a logic analyser which would at least have the option of operating synchronously on a clocked data stream from SPI.  Of course most logic analyzers cannot measure signal integrity but the exceptions to this are fascinating.  Who was it that made that parallel bus logic analyser using a 4 bit flash ADC for each channel?  I remember the ads in the trade magazines.

It is worth mentioning that accurately capturing a 60 MHz SPI signal may also present probing difficulties and active probes are not cheap and low-z probes are not ubiquitous (but they are easy to make).  Just having a high bandwidth DSO with a fast sampling rate is not enough if probes with long ground connections are used or if the circuit cannot handle the capacitive loading of a high impedance passive probe or the low input resistance of a low-z probe.  I once designed in a pair of emitter followers to drive 50 ohm transmission lines in place of probes from something that was essentially a very fast SPI.  This worked much better than the active probe I did not have.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 13, 2014, 01:14:12 am
As far as buying and then returning an item I never intended to keep, I consider that rather dishonest.

It depends, it is all part of the terms of the deal.  If they have a free 30 day return privilege as an advantage to above their competitors, then you are fully right to use it.  One could argue that if you planned to return it from the get go that that might not be so ethical.

The Agilent document I think that was posted earlier says:

Although
sampling at even higher rates relative
to the scope’s bandwidth would further
minimize the possibility of sampling
frequency components beyond the
Nyquist frequency (fN), a sample rateto-
bandwidth ratio of 4:1 is sufficient to
produce reliable digital measurements

So while we would all love to have a 10:1 ratio or even better, I think it is going a bit far to say we must have 10:1.  No doubt that the sample rate when using 4 channels on the 1000Z scopes are there downside, but the price is incredible.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 01:19:45 am
Great!  So where in the manual does it say that the fastest timebase scale is slower when more channels are used?  I must have missed that or maybe Rigol left it out.

If DSO manuals listed every thing the DSO can't do, given any and all possible combinations of settings, the manuals would be the size of encyclopedias. But I would agree that Rigol has been a little misleading about the actual, working BW of the DS1000Z with 3/4 channels ON. Then again, this is their bottom-of-the-line, super-low-cost DPO - and some trade-offs are to be expected. My only wish would be that they make those trade-offs a little bit more clear in the manual.

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I obviously do not expect any detail faster than the analog bandwidth or between sample points but I do expect sin(x)/x reconstruction to produce something closely resembling a 3.5 nanosecond transition.  All of the necessary information baring aliasing is there.

Yes, "bar(r)ing aliasing" - rather a big "but", given the frequency roll-off the scope.

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I still suspect they took steps to hide interleaving and aliasing errors.  Run the above test and find out.

I don't have the equipment to produce a clean sine wave close to 1GHz/500MHz (my DS2000's 1/2 channel Nyquist frequencies) - but even if I did, I'm not sure why I would spend time running tests to satisfy your (and your's alone, as far as I've read) suspicions.

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As far as buying and then returning an item I never intended to keep, I consider that rather dishonest.

Well, who knows - you might love the DSO and think it's well worth $375 (or whatever it is at Tequipment with the EEVblog discount).  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 01:37:20 am
...a sample rate to-bandwidth ratio of 4:1 is sufficient to produce reliable digital measurements.

So while we would all love to have a 10:1 ratio or even better, I think it is going a bit far to say we must have 10:1.  No doubt that the sample rate when using 4 channels on the 1000Z scopes are there downside, but the price is incredible.

The 10:1 ratio is for linear interpolation, not for sin(x)/x. If there is a strong possibility of aliasing (as when running 3/4 channels on the DS1000Z without extra filtering), it would be better to use linear interpolation, which is cruder but will be less wrong then sin(x)/x because it won't introduce false peaks (although it will introduce discontinuities in the gradient).

When using linear interpolation, a 10:1 ratio is preferable - as demonstrated in the following images. The first one shows a 5MHz sine wave interpolated linearly from 4 samples per period (4:1) - the second shows the same 5MHz sine wave interpolated linearly from 10 samples per period (10:1).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 13, 2014, 02:02:13 am
One could argue that if you planned to return it from the get go that that might not be so ethical.

I'd certainly argue that. The seller will have a hard time selling it as "new" if it's had 30 days use (especially since the DS1054Z has trial features that tick away as you use it).

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 02:09:20 am
I'd certainly argue that. The seller will have a hard time selling it as "new" if it's had 30 days use (especially since the DS1054Z has trial features that tick away as you use it).

Well, if you aren't sure about keeping something you buy, you should certainly treat it (and the packaging) extremely well. And the trial features on these scopes are easily resettable by dealers with a simple key code.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on October 13, 2014, 09:38:16 am
So while we would all love to have a 10:1 ratio or even better, I think it is going a bit far to say we must have 10:1.  No doubt that the sample rate when using 4 channels on the 1000Z scopes are there downside, but the price is incredible.

Yes, and I'm not sure why any would quibble over this. Something to be aware of for sure, but still no reason why anyone wouldn't buy this scope at $399
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Deckert on October 13, 2014, 10:12:12 am
Does anybody know if the DS1104Z supports ETS (Equivalent Time Sampling)?

No, none of the Rigol UltraVision DSOs do.

Thanks marmad. That's interesting and, to a certain extent, somewhat disappointing. The DS1102Z's predecessors (the old DS1102) offered ETS and went down to 2ns/div on it's shortest time base. I was considering the DS1104Z as a replacement for my Atten ADS1102CML (a Siglent SDS1102CML), but I do use ETS often to measure output propagation delays.

Using ETS I have measured delays down to 1ns. I wonder if the ETS hardware is linked to the 1ns sample step or if I will be able to measure smaller delays (an experiment for another day).

--deckert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 11:51:39 am
Thanks marmad. That's interesting and, to a certain extent, somewhat disappointing.

As mentioned in another thread, none of the current crop of low-cost, intensity-graded DPOs (Rigol DS1000Z/DS2000A, Agilent 2000X, Siglent SDS2000, etc) offers ETS.

The Rigol DS2000A has the 1ns timebase setting (when enabled to 300MHz), but of course, that's considerably more expensive than the DS1054Z.   
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 13, 2014, 05:36:13 pm
Yep. People are arguing over this as if it were a $4000 oscilloscope, not $400.

For $400 the only question you should be asking is, "Where can I get one???"

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rbroders on October 13, 2014, 06:22:54 pm
Can someone please send me the EEVblog discount code for TEquipment?

Thanks in advance -- BOb
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 13, 2014, 06:25:58 pm
Yep. People are arguing over this as if it were a $4000 oscilloscope, not $400.

For $400 the only question you should be asking is, "Where can I get one???"

Agreed.  That's why it is such a shame that the main thread dedicated to what is probably the best oscilloscope buy in quite a few years has been polluted with irrelevant and unhelpful noise.  Perhaps the thread could be tidied up so it can add value long into the future ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 13, 2014, 07:08:38 pm
Yep. People are arguing over this as if it were a $4000 oscilloscope, not $400.

For $400 the only question you should be asking is, "Where can I get one???"

Agreed.  That's why it is such a shame that the main thread dedicated to what is probably the best oscilloscope buy in quite a few years has been polluted with irrelevant and unhelpful noise.  Perhaps the thread could be tidied up so it can add value long into the future ?

+1
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on October 13, 2014, 08:08:43 pm
Yep. People are arguing over this as if it were a $4000 oscilloscope, not $400.

For $400 the only question you should be asking is, "Where can I get one???"

Agreed.  That's why it is such a shame that the main thread dedicated to what is probably the best oscilloscope buy in quite a few years has been polluted with irrelevant and unhelpful noise.  Perhaps the thread could be tidied up so it can add value long into the future ?

+1

Yeah, but where is my logic analyzer????

I kid, I kid.

Actually I've been telling hobbyist friends about this scope, they like my DS2072 so they will love that one (other than they only have one vertical and position control knob for all of the channels) but if I didn't have my 2000 series I would so get this one for less than half the price!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 13, 2014, 08:44:55 pm
Yeah, but where is my logic analyzer????

It has options for serial decoding, trigger on serial events/serial data, etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on October 13, 2014, 08:45:32 pm
I don't consider this "noise". Quite a bit of information on the scope's shortcomings that people should be aware of. Nobody ever said that the scope wasn't great value, they just explained a few quirks of the scope and how to get around them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on October 13, 2014, 08:54:43 pm
Yeah, but where is my logic analyzer????

It has options for serial decoding, trigger on serial events/serial data, etc.

It was a tongue in cheek comment. It's just $400!

Most everyone's phones cost as much as that!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 10:15:28 pm
Agreed.  That's why it is such a shame that the main thread dedicated to what is probably the best oscilloscope buy in quite a few years has been polluted with irrelevant and unhelpful noise.  Perhaps the thread could be tidied up so it can add value long into the future ?

Threads don't get "tidied up" here - although you can go back and delete your own comments from it. OTOH, you can also start another thread at anytime - for that long-term, future-value appeal (whatever that might amount to in the 21st century).  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on October 13, 2014, 10:36:32 pm
Agreed.  That's why it is such a shame that the main thread dedicated to what is probably the best oscilloscope buy in quite a few years has been polluted with irrelevant and unhelpful noise.  Perhaps the thread could be tidied up so it can add value long into the future ?

Forum are not, and never will be repositories of filtered information. They simply don't work like that.
You can force that information through "tidying up", but then the forum dries up and dies because that's not what people come here every day for.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 13, 2014, 10:42:26 pm
One could argue that if you planned to return it from the get go that that might not be so ethical.

I'd certainly argue that. The seller will have a hard time selling it as "new" if it's had 30 days use (especially since the DS1054Z has trial features that tick away as you use it).

The seller will likely have more than a hard time doing this in most places.  At best it will be an "open box" item or "recertified" or "refurbished" but selling it as "new" would be unlawful.  It sometimes happens anyway of course and sometimes sellers get caught doing it.

I have never purchased something for sale with the intention of borrowing it for no matter how short a duration and then returning it for a refund although I know people who have.  Yes, I could always make up some reason as justification for returning it but the basic dishonesty of doing this would haunt me.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 12:28:48 am
...but the basic dishonesty of doing this would haunt me.

I see your point, David - OTOH, I'm not sure why you think making continual speculations in this thread (without any proof) that Rigol is deliberately taking steps to hide errors in this DSO is much better.

I would be the first to admit that companies (and, unfortunately, often Chinese companies) are sometimes misleading - or not forthcoming - about problems/faults in their products (and Rigol is certainly no exception). And I have definitely questioned the veracity of posted specifications myself in this forum - but I've tried to do it based on conflicting or contrary (or, admittedly :-[, sometimes misunderstood) information/evidence related to the product itself - rather than history.

So unless/until you have some corroboration that supports your speculations, perhaps you might give them the benefit of the doubt? When I originally suggested you buy one and test it, I was fairly sure you would find yourself impressed by the value for money (even given it's shortcomings) - and end up keeping it in the end.  :)

- Mark
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 01:19:48 am
Getting back to more practical information: it would be good if an owner with the necessary test gear charted the frequency response of the DSO before implementing the 100MHz BW option (or after removing it).

As mentioned before, it's fairly easy to turn ON/OFF the 100MHz BW option with SCPI commands, and if the 50MHz BW device had a sharp enough roll-off implemented in the front-end (i.e. attenuating >= 125MHz >= -12db), it would be an alternative way to BW limit the device when using primarily 3/4 channels (while keeping the working BW around the stated 50MHz maximum).

Since Rigol has eliminated the LMH6518 in the DS1000Z (I assume to cut costs since it's a fairly expensive device), even better would be knowing precisely what they're doing in the front-end to control the low-pass filter - both for model differentiation and/or channel BW limiting. Maybe Dave can play around with that during a teardown.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 01:25:07 am
...but the basic dishonesty of doing this would haunt me.

I see your point, David - OTOH, I'm not sure why you think making continual speculations in this thread (without any proof) that Rigol is deliberately taking steps to hide errors in this DSO is much better.

In my previous experiences with Rigol, I concluded that they were systematically deceptive about the capabilities of their DSOs.  In reality, maybe they were just incompetent but how does one tell the difference?  The result is the same in either case.

Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

Quote
I would be the first to admit that companies (and, unfortunately, often Chinese companies) are sometimes misleading - or not forthcoming - about problems/faults in their products (and Rigol is certainly no exception). And I have definitely questioned the veracity of posted specifications myself in this forum - but I've tried to do it based on conflicting or contrary (or, admittedly :-[, sometimes misunderstood) information/evidence related to the product itself - rather than history.

I try to pick on all companies when they do this in an equal opportunity way.  Tektronix is often an object of my derision.  I admit to having more than my fair share of cynicism.

As far as direct experience, I briefly evaluated several Rigol oscilloscopes before the DS1000Z and DS2000A series were released so this was years ago.  I concluded then that a 20+ year old Tektronix 2230 or 2232 was a better value but readily admit that this would not be the case for most users and so tend to recommend the DS1000Z series if asked despite my misgivings about Rigol in general.

Quote
So unless/until you have some corroboration that supports your speculations, perhaps you might give them the benefit of the doubt? When I originally suggested you buy one and test it, I was fairly sure you would find yourself impressed by the value for money (even given it's shortcomings) - and end up keeping it in the end.  :)

I have pointed to evidence others have published (even Rigol) which you have not addressed so I hardly believe at this point that you would consider direct evidence produced by me.

I have considered doing what you suggest (but was rather taken aback that you suggested buying one for evaluation with the intention of returning it) but neither of the Rigol DSOs I might consider will do anything significant for me that I cannot already do with my existing analog and digital oscilloscopes and they lack what I would consider a killer feature like support of network analysis by returning FFT phase information.

Apparently their waveform reconstruction and triggering is defective at least by my standards but I will disagree with you on that until I get to test one or someone posts some relevant test results. :)

It bothers me that we do not agree but please do not take it personally.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 02:03:26 am
I have pointed to evidence others have published (even Rigol) which you have not addressed so I hardly believe at this point that you would consider direct evidence produced by me.

You seem to have a strange idea as to what constitutes "evidence" of something. If I post links to documents reporting that some bridges collapse, this does not prove - to any degree whatsoever - that the bridge located next to your house has or will collapse.

Quote
..but neither of the Rigol DSOs I might consider will do anything significant for me that I cannot already do with my existing analog and digital oscilloscopes

So I'm curious: what DSO do you own that can capture up to 65000 separate waveforms for decoding or analysis, over a span of time from microseconds to days?   :)

Quote
Apparently their waveform reconstruction and triggering is defective

No, I think you're confused about the meaning of "apparently" (as with "evidence" above :)). Their waveform reconstruction and triggering in the UltraVision DSOs appears to be fine - unless someone proves otherwise with tests.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 14, 2014, 02:45:44 am
Getting back to more practical information: it would be good if an owner with the necessary test gear charted the frequency response of the DSO before implementing the 100MHz BW option (or after removing it).

Stan Perkins did that:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg523785/#msg523785 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg523785/#msg523785)

Quote
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 03:43:07 am
Stan Perkins did that:

Quote
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

I saw that post, but it's a bit vague. He doesn't specify the slope of the roll-off (specifically, the attenuation at 125MHz), and he mentions that he believes it's being done in software - although this would be a different method than Rigol has used in the past (at least, it's different than the DS2000 - perhaps the DS1052E/DS1102E also uses software limiting?).

EDIT: Also, there has been at least one conflicting report to Stan's posted here. (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg528697/#msg528697)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 04:59:02 am
Quote
..but neither of the Rigol DSOs I might consider will do anything significant for me that I cannot already do with my existing analog and digital oscilloscopes

So I'm curious: what DSO do you own that can capture up to 65000 separate waveforms for decoding or analysis, over a span of time from microseconds to days?   :)

I have a Tektronix 7834 analog storage oscilloscope for making 4 channel 300 MHz captures at 250,000+ sweeps per second (but not at the same time) over a span of seconds to minutes.  Technically it can go for hours but it is already difficult enough to use and bistable storage mode is painful on the eyes.  I have a pair of 2230s for making 4 channel captures over hours to days if necessary.  I have never needed to do serial protocol analysis beyond what my word recognizer will support with a little help because my serial interface designs always work and I have other debugging methods available if necessary.  Signal integrity does not require protocol analysis.

The serial decoding and MSO capabilities are the features I would consider the Rigol oscilloscopes for but I have not needed them yet.  I could have used a DSO which returns FFT phase information in the past but practically nobody supports that anymore.

My go-to DSO is a 2230 or 2232.  It just depends on which is closer.

Quote
Quote
Apparently their waveform reconstruction and triggering is defective

No, I think you're confused about the meaning of "apparently" (as with "evidence" above :)). Their waveform reconstruction and triggering in the UltraVision DSOs appears to be fine - unless someone proves otherwise with tests.

I argued that they were both fine.  I was told that they were not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 05:00:59 am
Stan Perkins did that:

Quote
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

I saw that post, but it's a bit vague. He doesn't specify the slope of the roll-off (specifically, the attenuation at 125MHz), and he mentions that he believes it's being done in software - although this would be a different method than Rigol has used in the past (at least, it's different than the DS2000 - perhaps the DS1052E/DS1102E also uses software limiting?).

EDIT: Also, there has been at least one conflicting report to Stan's posted here. (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg528697/#msg528697)

Bah.  I was going to mention the conflicting report (if I could find it) but you got to it before I finished my other reply. :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 05:50:14 am
I have a Tektronix 7834 analog storage oscilloscope for making 4 channel 300 MHz captures at 250,000+ sweeps per second (but not at the same time) over a span of seconds to minutes.  Technically it can go for hours but it is already difficult enough to use and bistable storage mode is painful on the eyes.  I have a pair of 2230s for making 4 channel captures over hours to days if necessary.

Neither of these have anything close to the storage capabilities of the DS1000Z or DS2000. The 7834 is limited (according to it's datasheet) to 30 minutes of time, and the 2230's can save a maximum of 3 waveforms (each @ 1k compressed). There is simply no way you can, for example, capture and store a 14k waveform once per second for 18 hours.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 14, 2014, 06:04:57 am
I saw that post, but it's a bit vague. He doesn't specify the slope of the roll-off

"Sharp"

and he mentions that he believes it's being done in software - although this would be a different method than Rigol has used in the past (at least, it's different than the DS2000 - perhaps the DS1052E/DS1102E also uses software limiting?).

Software makes sense. I assume they made no hardware modifications to the existing DS1074Z/DS1104Z 'scope.

PS: The 'scope already has a 20MHz bandwidth limiter button. Does anybody know if that's that hardware, software, FPGA...? Maybe they re-used that as a 50MHz limiter.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 06:33:04 am
"Sharp"
He doesn't specify the slope of the roll-off (specifically, the attenuation at 125MHz)

Quote
Software makes sense. I assume they made no hardware modifications to the existing DS1074Z/DS1104Z 'scope.

It wouldn't matter if there was already a control method of adjusting the cut-off frequency for that BW in the front-end - just as Rigol didn't have to alter the front-end of the DS2000A to accommodate the 300MHz model when it was released.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 07:31:49 am
I have a Tektronix 7834 analog storage oscilloscope for making 4 channel 300 MHz captures at 250,000+ sweeps per second (but not at the same time) over a span of seconds to minutes.  Technically it can go for hours but it is already difficult enough to use and bistable storage mode is painful on the eyes.  I have a pair of 2230s for making 4 channel captures over hours to days if necessary.

Neither of these have anything close to the storage capabilities of the DS1000Z or DS2000. The 7834 is limited (according to it's datasheet) to 30 minutes of time,

The Tektronix specifications are pessimistic (*) but storage time in bistable mode, which I would hate to use for the reason I gave, lasts essentially until power is removed and oddly enough generally even after that; that may seem a little odd but analog storage CRTs are weird.  In reality I would never use persistence longer than a few minutes deliberately but it is handy for fast glitch hunting and as a variable persistence sampling display which is what I mostly use it for.

The DS2302A has almost the same bandwidth, the 7834 can be configured as fast as 400 MHz but the difference is not significant, but costs more than every oscilloscope I have combined without replacing the capabilities of all of them.

I would never recommend a 7834 to someone unless they had a specific requirement that it filled which modern but cheap DSOs did not and even then I would try to find an alternative.  That is a very short list even if you include various ways a 7834 may be used to crush invaders. :)

Quote
and the 2230's can save a maximum of 3 waveforms (each @ 1k compressed). There is simply no way you can, for example, capture and store a 14k waveform once per second for 18 hours.

Or one channel with a 4k record length or 2 channels with 2k record lengths and half of those again if peak detection is used.  They can actually store lots of waveform but that requires the memory backup option.  These oscilloscopes also support external clocking for arbitrarily long duration recording but I have never needed it.  If I am hunting for something specific over a long period of time, I would be using a qualified trigger circuit of some sort which Rigols are better at.  If I am not sure of what I am looking for, I would have to rely on envelope detection and again, the Rigols would probably perform better for this but I am no longer sure.

None of them can capture and store a 14k waveform once per second for 18 hours but there are many things the Rigols cannot do that these can and they are the things I require.  I keep being told that the Rigols are incapable of measuring the things I would like including for instance RMS jitter to high resolution or high resolution jitter at all.  That is something I could use.  I can do it now even within a 100 MHz bandwidth but it is not as convenient as it could be.

(*) Tektronix at the time was routinely pessimistic in their specifications even for marketing.  They would generally list the minimum guaranteed number like 500 MHz for an oscilloscope which typically was more like 700 MHz or 600 picoseconds for pulse generator which actually performs more like 450 picoseconds.  The 30 minute time for the 7834 variable persistence storage display probably reflects the amount of patience someone had watching it to make sure it met the specification they promised.  The same statement could be made about transistor leakage or operational amplifier input bias current or noise.  Testing takes time and costs money.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 14, 2014, 08:00:41 am
I don't have the equipment to produce a clean sine wave close to 1GHz/500MHz (my DS2000's 1/2 channel Nyquist frequencies) - but even if I did, I'm not sure why I would spend time running tests to satisfy your (and your's alone, as far as I've read) suspicions.

Hmm well I can generate sigs up to 1.5 GHz with my DSA815 so I did some tests with my "upgraded" 1074Z with 4 channels on, so 250 MSa/s:
100 to 200 MHz.
Nice aliassing! notable the 200 MHz in, resulting in a 50 MHz displayed sine...  (250-200 = 50, so the math checks out  :P)
The HW counter loses it above 100 MHz, until it folds back to < 100 MHz...

100MHz:
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113109)

120 MHz:
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113111)

160 MHz:
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113113)

200 MHz:
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113115)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 08:09:27 am
That is a very short list even if you include various ways a 7834 may be used to crush invaders. :)

 ;D

Quote
...but there are many things the Rigols cannot do that these can and they are the things I require.
 
No argument there - I was just trying to specify at least one way in which these new, cheap, deep-memory DSOs can outperform some of the great, older gear. I still keep and use my 35-year old Tek 212 - even though it only has a BW of 500kHz - because manufacturers still don't make inexpensive, lightweight, battery-operated, double-insulated (floating to 600V) DSOs - although they're getting closer.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 08:20:39 am
Hmm well I can generate sigs up to 1.5 GHz with my DSA815 so I did some tests with my "upgraded" 1074Z with 4 channels on, so 250 MSa/s:
100 to 200 MHz.
Nice aliassing! notable the 200 MHz in, resulting in a 50 MHz displayed sine...  (250-200 = 50, so the math checks out  :P)

I think the 100 MHz example is displaying aliasing in the digitizer like I described but the variable persistence is concealing it as a thicker trace.  The 120 MHz example definitely shows a problem but it is so extreme that I am not sure if something else is going on.  The 160 MHz example shows what I expected the 100 MHz example to look like.  The 200 MHz example actually looks like the best of the bunch to me.

Only the 120 MHz results looks weird to me but I think I know what causes it in this case.  I have seen something similar which appeared to be related to the aperture time of the digitizer implying a non-linear frequency response but I do not think that is it.

Since these oscilloscopes have FFT support, they should be able to display their digitizer non-linearity and sampling errors directly as harmonic and non-harmonic distortion products as shown in that Agilent application note I linked.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 08:30:32 am
Hmm well I can generate sigs up to 1.5 GHz with my DSA815 so I did some tests with my "upgraded" 1074Z with 4 channels on, so 250 MSa/s:
100 to 200 MHz.
Nice aliassing! notable the 200 MHz in, resulting in a 50 MHz displayed sine...  (250-200 = 50, so the math checks out  :P)
The HW counter loses it above 100 MHz, until it folds back to < 100 MHz...

Thanks for these! Any chance you could do them one more time with sin(x)/x OFF (linear interpolation ON) just for a comparison? Perhaps it doesn't make much difference with a simple sine wave at 5 pts/div; you might try a set at the smallest timebase as well.

I think the 100 MHz example is displaying aliasing in the digitizer like I described but the variable persistence is concealing it as a thicker trace.  The 120 MHz example definitely shows a problem but it is so extreme that I am not sure if something else is going on.  The 160 MHz example shows what I expected the 100 MHz example to look like.

The 100MHz example is the only one captured while the DSO is running - meaning a snapshot from the intensity buffer while capturing >10,000 waveforms per second. When the DSO is stopped, it's just the last captured waveform - as seen in the other 3 images.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 14, 2014, 08:40:45 am
Thanks for these! Any chance you could do them one more time with sin(x)/x OFF (linear interpolation ON) just for a comparison? Perhaps it doesn't make much difference with a simple sine wave at 5 pts/div; you might try a set at the smallest timebase as well.
See attachments.
Waveforms look about the same, only the amplitudes are significantly lower.

I think the 100 MHz example is displaying aliasing in the digitizer like I described but the variable persistence is concealing it as a thicker trace.  The 120 MHz example definitely shows a problem but it is so extreme that I am not sure if something else is going on.  The 160 MHz example shows what I expected the 100 MHz example to look like.

The 100MHz example is the only one captured while the DSO is running - meaning a snapshot from the intensity buffer while capturing >10,000 waveforms per second. When the DSO is stopped, it's just the last captured waveform - as seen in the other 3 images.
Yup, correct. An oversight here. A single capture @ 100 MHz shows a "thin" trace like the others.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 08:45:30 am
That is a very short list even if you include various ways a 7834 may be used to crush invaders. :)

 ;D

I have a scope cart so it does not crush me if I have to move it. :)

The only thing I find lacking about the 7834 within its limitations is the brightness and clarity of its CRT, it could be considered dim and fuzzy, but all storage CRTs suffer from this problem compared to non-storage CRTs and I did not even notice it until I used a 7904 which is effectively the non-storage version and looks absolutely amazing.

Quote
Quote
...but there are many things the Rigols cannot do that these can and they are the things I require.

No argument there - I was just trying to specify at least one way in which these new, cheap, deep-memory DSOs can outperform some of the great, older gear. I still keep and use my 35-year old Tek 212 - even though it only has a BW of 500kHz - because manufacturers still don't make inexpensive, lightweight, battery-operated, double-insulated (floating to 600V) DSOs - although they're getting closer.

And I just picked one way that they do not meet my needs. :)

I understand the utility of deep memory and have used such DSOs in the past but not because of their deep memory capability.  It is vital for some types of measurements and protocol decoding in certain cases and of course more is always better as long as you do not have to always use it or pay for it.

I think I remember seeing the marketing ads for the Tektronix 212 and its cousins but they were basically before my time and to me they always looked a little weird.

Electrical safety is often underrated by those who should know better.  Aren't oscilloscopes like the Tektronix TPS series close replacements?  I thought I remembered seeing a similar Rigol or Siglent but now I just find the handheld Siglent SHS1000 series.  I used to use an early Fluke Scopemeter but it was neither isolated except for being battery powered and it was hard on the eyes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 09:06:13 am
I think the 100 MHz example is displaying aliasing in the digitizer like I described but the variable persistence is concealing it as a thicker trace.  The 120 MHz example definitely shows a problem but it is so extreme that I am not sure if something else is going on.  The 160 MHz example shows what I expected the 100 MHz example to look like.

The 100MHz example is the only one captured while the DSO is running - meaning a snapshot from the intensity buffer while capturing >10,000 waveforms per second. When the DSO is stopped, it's just the last captured waveform - as seen in the other 3 images.

Yup, correct. An oversight here. A single capture @ 100 MHz shows a "thin" trace like the others.

Hmm.  I was going to say you found evidence of the problem I suspected (which is not really a problem unless it affects triggering) but after becoming suspicious of my conclusions and reviewing the DSA815 tracking generator specifications, I do not think it will work for the measurement I had in mind because of its high levels of distortion which are irrelevant in tracking generator applications.

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsa-815-tracking-generator-distortion/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsa-815-tracking-generator-distortion/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 14, 2014, 09:52:07 am
So, if I am understanding the traces:

100 MHz - ok
120 MHz - showing signs of a problem, getting bigger and smaller amplitude
160 MHz - aliasing to 80 MHz
200 MHz - aliasing to 50 MHz

Just out of curiosity, what would this test look like with a square wave?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 01:36:45 pm
So, if I am understanding the traces:

100 MHz - ok
120 MHz - showing signs of a problem, getting bigger and smaller amplitude
160 MHz - aliasing to 80 MHz
200 MHz - aliasing to 50 MHz

They show exactly what you would expect given that the source has a high level of distortion; tracking generators do not have to be clean.  The test in this case is not significant except on a gross scale and does not say anything useful about the DSO.

Quote
Just out of curiosity, what would this test look like with a square wave?

I would like to know that myself but only a fast edge is really necessary.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 02:19:39 pm
Only the 120 MHz results looks weird to me but I think I know what causes it in this case.  I have seen something similar which appeared to be related to the aperture time of the digitizer implying a non-linear frequency response but I do not think that is it.

The 120MHz result is what I would expect as the sine wave frequency starts to approach the border of the Nyquist frequency (125MHz) - the appearance of amplitude modulation due to 'leakage' (perfectly reproducing a frequency exactly half that of the sampling rate only works in theory). As the frequency reaches Nyquist, the AM will become more extreme. At some point past Nyquist, there is the reappearance of an alias that looks like a normally amplified sine wave again.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 04:42:22 pm
As mentioned before, it's fairly easy to turn ON/OFF the 100MHz BW option with SCPI commands, and if the 50MHz BW device had a sharp enough roll-off implemented in the front-end (i.e. attenuating >= 125MHz >= -12db), it would be an alternative way to BW limit the device when using primarily 3/4 channels (while keeping the working BW around the stated 50MHz maximum).

Fairly easy, but kind of clumsy.  And certainly a hassle to do with any regularity.  OTOH, if someone had their scope connected to a PC most of the time, a standalone utility (or a general-purpose utility, hint) could provide the functionality at a click to switch between all of the available bandwidths.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 06:02:00 pm
So, if I am understanding the traces:

100 MHz - ok
120 MHz - showing signs of a problem, getting bigger and smaller amplitude
160 MHz - aliasing to 80 MHz  90 MHz
200 MHz - aliasing to 50 MHz

One small correction, above.

Quote
Just out of curiosity, what would this test look like with a square wave?

Similar, but different.   ;)  The sine tests are "pure" fundamentals, while the square wave has all the odd harmonics.  That means that obvious problems would start to surface as low as ~40 MHz.  (You should be pretty much OK up to 25 MHz... "coincidentally" the maximum recommended reliable frequency that's been cited in this thread before, using the 10x rule.)

With linear interpolation this would initially manifest as deformations in the wave shape, but with sin(x)/x, you'd start to get some "interesting" spurs on the crests, looking like ringing and distortion.  But there would already be some spurious amplitude modulation artifacts there, from the 3rd harmonic, as evidenced on the 120 MHz sine.  And it would all turn to crap a lot quicker, as the frequency ramped up from 40 MHz. 

E.g., that 50 MHz alias you saw at 200 MHz, would show up (at reduced amplitude) at ~67 MHz.  But some of the fundamental would still remain, at that point.  Triggering may become less stable, and you'll likely have to adjust threshold and/or holdoff to get it to restabilize.  100 MHz will not be at all OK, as the sine wave was.  So going beyond that will be rather pointless.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 06:18:31 pm
One important thing to keep in mind, as you're looking at pa3bca's nicely done sinusoid tests, is that as the frequencies go up, and approach the Nyquist frequency, the first problem is that amplitude anomalies appear.  Not a good thing if you happen to be interested in amplitude, or are counting on it for triggering.  As you pass the Nyquist frequency, you no longer see any of the original waveform!  All you are seeing are aliases, yet they look very "real" even with linear interpolation turned on.

In any non-sinusoidal signal environment (like square waves from digital signals), things are more complicated.  You'll still be able to see the fundamental component, so you think you're good, but you'll be seeing a whole lot more, that isn't really there.  Long before your fundamental reaches Nyquist.  Just like in pa3bca's screen shots.  They will look "real" too, but there won't be any way to tell them apart from actual signal elements.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 14, 2014, 06:24:12 pm
So Mark, for us inexperienced scope users, are you saying that if you set up the scope to be a 100MHz device, it is still only as good as the 50MHz scope that it was sold as and only good for signals up to 25MHz ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 14, 2014, 06:37:57 pm
for us inexperienced scope users, are you saying that if you set up the scope to be a 100MHz device, it is still only as good as the 50MHz scope that it was sold as

No. We're discussing the limits of *all* 100Mhz, 1Gsa/s oscilloscopes (and finding that the DS1054Z/DS1104Z is matching the theory perfectly, maybe even beating it a little...the analog input part seems to be better then 100MHz).

and only good for signals up to 25MHz

And yes, the DS1104Z with all 4 channels turned on isn't much different than the stock DS1054Z with all 4 channels turned on.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 14, 2014, 07:19:48 pm
They show exactly what you would expect given that the source has a high level of distortion; tracking generators do not have to be clean.  The test in this case is not significant except on a gross scale and does not say anything useful about the DSO.
I beg to differ. These screenshots show exactly what I expected given that the roll off of the analog front-end above 100+ MHz is not very steep.
The distortion level of the 815 TG has _very_ limited impact on this. It is probably what causes the somewhat imperfect sine @ 100 MHz but I think the influence on the other measurements is irrelevant.
I did some measurements of the 815 TG with my "upgraded" 2072 at 50 and 100 MHz. It looks like the 2nd harmonics are down by approx. 20 dB, so 1/10 of the amplitude of the fundamental. Unlikely that this type of distortion renders the measurements not useful like you suggest.

The amplitude is down by (only) 50% at 200 MHz, so this shows clearly that you need to be very careful if the measured signal has components above say 100 MHz. they _will_ bleed through as aliases.

Distortion of the TG _is_ visible, but nothing spectacular, see attachments.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Towger on October 14, 2014, 07:41:36 pm
And yes, the DS1104Z with all 4 channels turned on isn't much different than the stock DS1054Z with all 4 channels turned on.

So the know the hack increases the bandwidth on the 50 and 70mhz models to the full 100 Mhz.

But we have no side by side comparison with proper test equipment between a upgraded DS1054Z and a factory DS1104Z.  There is still every possibility that Rigol is batching them at different speeds after factory testing. Just as with many CPUs the 'slower' ones may operate perfectly well (or good enough) at the higher speeds and faster chips may be badged as slower versions as they sell faster etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 08:04:59 pm
for us inexperienced scope users, are you saying that if you set up the scope to be a 100MHz device, it is still only as good as the 50MHz scope that it was sold as

No. We're discussing the limits of *all* 100Mhz, 1Gsa/s oscilloscopes (and finding that the DS1054Z/DS1104Z is matching the theory perfectly, maybe even beating it a little...the analog input part seems to be better then 100MHz).

and only good for signals up to 25MHz

And yes, the DS1104Z with all 4 channels turned on isn't much different than the stock DS1054Z with all 4 channels turned on.

I agree with the comments from Fungus.  Normally I don't like "me too" replies, but since I was the one initially asked, I was concerned my silence might be misinterpreted as disagreement.  He already answered it well.

The only thing I'd add is that the 25 MHz "limitation" is only for non-sinusoidal signals, and only when 3 or 4-channels have been turned on.  There are times when you're working specifically with sinewave generators, and the 25 MHz rule won't apply... even with 4-channels enabled.

So netdudeuk's comment was an oversimplified generalization, that really wasn't what anyone here was saying.  I hope that clears things up.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 08:22:42 pm
Part of the difficulty here is using an oscilloscope in place of a logic analyser which would at least have the option of operating synchronously on a clocked data stream from SPI.

Good ones, yes, but surprisingly, not all LA's do.  None of the LA's in the Rigol MSO's do.  Strictly async Sample mode.

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It is worth mentioning that accurately capturing a 60 MHz SPI signal may also present probing difficulties and active probes are not cheap and low-z probes are not ubiquitous (but they are easy to make).  Just having a high bandwidth DSO with a fast sampling rate is not enough if probes with long ground connections are used or if the circuit cannot handle the capacitive loading of a high impedance passive probe or the low input resistance of a low-z probe.

I certainly agree that all those points are worth mentioning.  And remembering.   ;D  Low-Z probes are so easy (and inexpensive) to make that they should be used a lot more often.  Especially when working with high-speed digital logic circuits.  And one nice thing about the Rigol's is their exceptional flexibility wrt selection of the probe multipliers (1x, 2x, 5x, 10x, 20x, etc.), that come in very handy with custom low-Z probes.

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I once designed in a pair of emitter followers to drive 50 ohm transmission lines in place of probes from something that was essentially a very fast SPI.  This worked much better than the active probe I did not have.

That is a great solution, but one that often will not be practical or even possible.  Assuming you're talking about building enhanced Test Points into a board design.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 14, 2014, 09:00:27 pm
But we have no side by side comparison with proper test equipment between a upgraded DS1054Z and a factory DS1104Z.  There is still every possibility that Rigol is batching them at different speeds after factory testing. Just as with many CPUs the 'slower' ones may operate perfectly well (or good enough) at the higher speeds and faster chips may be badged as slower versions as they sell faster etc.

Only a very tiny percentage of chips fail at high speeds but magically work at slower speeds.

Most binning is done where chips are designed to keep on working with some parts completely disabled. eg. A CPU could work with half the cache RAM if there's a failure in the other half, a GPU can disable a bank of SIMD processors if there's a defect there, etc.

Binning based on analog front end of oscilloscopes? (ie. some BNC connectors leading to the ADC) Seems unlikely to me. If it fails at 100MHz it's almost certainly going to fail at 50MHz as well.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 09:16:08 pm
But to borrow and scale a phrase, a 100 MHz oscilloscope cannot track a 2.5 nanosecond edge but it should be able to measure a delay of 1.0 nanoseconds between two such edges.

Perhaps it 'should', but if the spec says the interchannel delays can be as much as 1-2 ns, using it for such measurements isn't something I'd care to rely on.

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And then I will look at the early LeCroy DSOs which were advertised as having digital triggers and find that they had timing resolution significantly higher than their real time sample rate would suggest.

That's true, but so what?  I have a 9300-series LeCroy, and two 9400-series.  And you are correct about their timing resolution/capabilities.  But they all had ETS (well, RIS), so they got that for "free", because they had a clock (or facsimile thereof) that ran 40x-50x faster.  I see interpolation capabilities in the ps range.  Back about 50 years ago, when I was using LeCroy scopes in the Physics labs at the Uni, picosecond events were extremely important.  But the current "affordable" scopes we're talking about were never intended for that purpose.

So what was the facsimile of the clock which allowed high resolution delay measurements?  RIS as they describe it sure sounds like what I described where transition midpoint timing (*) is derived after reconstruction.

I haven't researched the mechanism they used to implement it, but the 9400 (surprisingly the older generation of the two) has an absolute time-base accuracy spec of +/-10ps, and can do relative interpolation as you're describing, down to 5ps.  My 9300 may be better yet, but the manual is still packed away.

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The Rigol user manual is explicit about supporting a timebase scale of 5 ns/div.  Without interpolation or reconstruction at 250 MS/s, that would produce a pretty awful looking display of a 3.5 nanosecond transition time signal (single-shot or not)

It would be good when sinx/x is feasible, but yes, 'awful' when there's only one sample every 4,000ps.

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...when the display resolution indicates that about a difference of 100 picoseconds should be visible; 800 points / 12 divisions = 66 points per division in the display record but some of that is used by the UI so 50 points per division is more realistic.

50 points/div is standard in all the newer Rigols.  The DS2000 has 14 h-divisions, and the 1000z-family has 12.

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That then comes out to 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.  Coincidentally, the delay calibration is *specified* in the user manual to be 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.

It's not a coincidence at all.  But it would be an easy trap to fall into (as I suspect you are) to then assume this implies something about the timebase capabilities of the hardware.  When instead it simply reflects a display-mapping capability.

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If it is not possible to see 100 picoseconds of delay difference using this oscilloscope, then it is odd that the delay compensation would support that resolution.  Why support it if it cannot be seen anyway?

Because it can be seen.  In fact, that "resolution" is variable, and maps directly into the pixel structure of the display.  It's always 50x the per division time, which is one pixel.  The Delay Calibration goes as low as 20ps on the DS2000 (at 1ns/div), and is used to visually align each channel with the trigger.  That whole fancy chart means nothing more than you can align to the nearest pixel.  (Which will be 20ps, 40ps, 100ps... 20ns, 40ns, 100ns, NoOffset.)

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That is also insignificantly worse than the oldest 100 MHz ETS DSOs that I know of can do.

Probably true, and reflective of the fact that these are not ETS DSOs.   Which is kind of what Marmad and I have been trying to tell you.  >:D

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Now maybe the DS1104Z cannot do the above with a single shot acquisition, but it sure should be able to because it is not difficult and the hardware is capable of supporting it.

 ;D ;D ;D ::)  "should""it is not difficult""the hardware is capable"?  That's a lot of assertions for one sentence.  Sadly there are many things that are not difficult, yet many DSO manufacturers leave them out.  And while there are many technique that could be used to improve the temporal resolution of a scope, that doesn't mean that Rigol incorporated any of them... perhaps due to cost, or difficulty trying to merge them with intensity grading, which they felt was more important/valuable.

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The online reference I like to give for various TDC designs is currently down do to hosting issues but the relevant part of the description for a transition midpoint timing TDC is "A resolution of around 10ps or so is possible when using a 16 bit pipeline ADC clocked at 80MHz or more."  As I recall, these were popular in particle collision experiments because of their adequate resolution and accuracy and their very high measurement rate.

Yes, it was the nuclear physics lab that I was doing particle collision experiments with the LeCroys, back in the olden days.  Not really the 50 years I mentioned, but close enough that my recollections of details are extremely vague.  But I've spent a lot of time working with my own (antique) LeCroys, so I know them pretty well.  And I do rather like the 4000x4000 vector graphics displays (though the burn-in not so much).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Towger on October 14, 2014, 09:40:40 pm
Binning based on analog front end of oscilloscopes? (ie. some BNC connectors leading to the ADC) Seems unlikely to me. If it fails at 100MHz it's almost certainly going to fail at 50MHz as well.

If it works (at all) at 50Mhz, I would not see it failing outright at 100Mhz. Rather, the calibration may be out more than the internal calibration can compensate for.  Then again this is pure speculation and I may be talking out my hole. :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 10:41:25 pm
Distortion of the TG _is_ visible, but nothing spectacular, see attachments.

@pa3bca: As I've mentioned, since the DS1000Z series doesn't use the LMH6518 in the front-end, it would be nice to know how (and how well) it's handling BW limiting (both for the 20MHz per channel, as well as 50MHz/70MHz for model differentiation). On my DS2000, when I input a 20MHz signal and turn on the 20MHz channel limiter, the signal drops by almost a perfect -3dB. If I input a 100MHz signal, it will be down by approx. -13dB. What are your results given those same parameters?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 11:20:13 pm
But we have no side by side comparison with proper test equipment between a upgraded DS1054Z and a factory DS1104Z.  There is still every possibility that Rigol is batching them at different speeds after factory testing. Just as with many CPUs the 'slower' ones may operate perfectly well (or good enough) at the higher speeds and faster chips may be badged as slower versions as they sell faster etc.

Only a very tiny percentage of chips fail at high speeds but magically work at slower speeds.

Most binning is done where chips are designed to keep on working with some parts completely disabled. eg. A CPU could work with half the cache RAM if there's a failure in the other half, a GPU can disable a bank of SIMD processors if there's a defect there, etc.

Binning based on analog front end of oscilloscopes? (ie. some BNC connectors leading to the ADC) Seems unlikely to me. If it fails at 100MHz it's almost certainly going to fail at 50MHz as well.

The binning if they did this would be for distortion produced anywhere from the BNC to digitizer.

Based on what we know about the amplifiers and ADCs used, it could vary by about 12 dB or so.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 14, 2014, 11:25:59 pm
So, if I am understanding the traces:

100 MHz - ok
120 MHz - showing signs of a problem, getting bigger and smaller amplitude
160 MHz - aliasing to 80 MHz  90 MHz
200 MHz - aliasing to 50 MHz

One small correction, above.

Yep, you are right.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 14, 2014, 11:31:06 pm
@pa3bca: As I've mentioned, since the DS1000Z series doesn't use the LMH6518 in the front-end, it would be nice to know how (and how well) it's handling BW limiting (both for the 20MHz per channel, as well as 50MHz/70MHz for model differentiation). On my DS2000, when I input a 20MHz signal and turn on the 20MHz channel limiter, the signal drops by almost a perfect -3dB. If I input a 100MHz signal, it will be down by approx. -13dB. What are your results given those same parameters?
Ok.
first the TG at 20 MHz and 0 dBm into the scope (with T connector and 50 Ohm terminator of course). 0 dBm should read as 223 mV RMS. Scope displays  252 mV so that's 11% off (almost 2 dB). Wel..... measured the TG output and it is at +0.98 dBm (also for TG functionality not really an issue as you would always normalize first before using the TG), and the scope is no precision voltage measurement device.
Then same 20 MHz in with 20 MHz BW limiting selected.
Output now 195 mW RMS.  20 log(195/252) = -2,2 dB

At 100 MHz:
100 MHz without BW limiting: 212 mV   (-1.5 dB @ 100 MHz, this is an "upgraded" 1072Z :-))
100 MHz with 20 MHz BW limiting: 62.3 mV
20 log (62.3/212) = -10.6 dB

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 14, 2014, 11:42:41 pm
Most binning is done where chips are designed to keep on working with some parts completely disabled.
DRAM chips get binned based on their maximum achievable clock speed for given timings, supply voltages, power, etc. CPUs also get speed-binned based on their maximum achievable clock and the amount of power they draw to reach a given clock speed, same goes for CPLDs, FPGAs and just about all other forms of digital ICs.

Analog ICs may get binned based on linearity, noise, bandwidth, offsets, current draw, etc.

Most of binning is done to narrow down variances in wafer yields. The "disabling defective circuitry" part only applies to a relatively small subset of all ICs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 11:45:13 pm
They show exactly what you would expect given that the source has a high level of distortion; tracking generators do not have to be clean.  The test in this case is not significant except on a gross scale and does not say anything useful about the DSO.

I beg to differ. These screenshots show exactly what I expected given that the roll off of the analog front-end above 100+ MHz is not very steep.
The distortion level of the 815 TG has _very_ limited impact on this. It is probably what causes the somewhat imperfect sine @ 100 MHz but I think the influence on the other measurements is irrelevant.
I did some measurements of the 815 TG with my "upgraded" 2072 at 50 and 100 MHz. It looks like the 2nd harmonics are down by approx. 20 dB, so 1/10 of the amplitude of the fundamental. Unlikely that this type of distortion renders the measurements not useful like you suggest.

It looks like almost 40 dB to me in your measurement but in the other tests I saw it was more like 25 dB.  I was a little surprised this specification was not included but it is just a tracking generator.

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The amplitude is down by (only) 50% at 200 MHz, so this shows clearly that you need to be very careful if the measured signal has components above say 100 MHz. they _will_ bleed through as aliases.

They sure will since the distortion produced in an integrated DSO analog front end and digitizer will probably be on the order of -50 dB.  The DS1000Z series may be a little better (we do not have any information about its channel preamplifier) than that but not by enough to matter.  This would be easy to measure with a low distortion RF signal source.

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Distortion of the TG _is_ visible, but nothing spectacular, see attachments.

What I meant when I refereed to this is that the distortion from the TG is going to conceal the distortion in the DSO unlike that other test with the video I linked to where an RF synthesizer intended for receiver testing was used.  The DSO will show aliasing from the TG distortion products.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 11:47:17 pm
At 100 MHz:
100 MHz without BW limiting: 212 mV   (-1.5 dB @ 100 MHz, this is an "upgraded" 1072Z :-))
100 MHz with 20 MHz BW limiting: 62.3 mV
20 log (62.3/212) = -10.6 dB

Thanks again! It doesn't seem quite as sharp a roll-off as on the DS2000. Could you please check 125MHz (the 3/4 channel Nyquist frequency) with the 20MHz BW limit on? Perhaps both with just 1 channel ON (1GSa/s), and then with all channels ON (250MSa/s)?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 15, 2014, 12:43:16 am
Thanks again! It doesn't seem quite as sharp a roll-off as on the DS2000. Could you please check 125MHz (the 3/4 channel Nyquist frequency) with the 20MHz BW limit on? Perhaps both with just 1 channel ON (1GSa/s), and then with all channels ON (250MSa/s)?
125 MHz - 250 MSa/s and 1 GSa/s with and without 20 MHz BW filter. See attachments.
This time the shots are taken with the scope in running mode and not n one shot mode. Note the "interesting" amplitude modulation on the first two screenshots, with freq = Nyquist. 125 MHz.
The frequency counter lost it though, even with 1 GSa/s.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 15, 2014, 12:57:29 am
What I meant when I refereed to this is that the distortion from the TG is going to conceal the distortion in the DSO unlike that other test with the video I linked to where an RF synthesizer intended for receiver testing was used.  The DSO will show aliasing from the TG distortion products.
Ah yes I now see what you mean.  Unfortunately I have nothing here (readily available) that can produce a 100MHz-ish signal where spurious is down more than 50 dB. Could build it (say a 5 pole low-pass after a 100 MHz generator) but not now.
But then again: are we going to see -50dB spurious signals back into the "passband" and into the display? with 8 bit A/D? what am I missing here...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 15, 2014, 02:00:52 am
125 MHz - 250 MSa/s and 1 GSa/s with and without 20 MHz BW filter. See attachments.
This time the shots are taken with the scope in running mode and not n one shot mode. Note the "interesting" amplitude modulation on the first two screenshots, with freq = Nyquist. 125 MHz.
The frequency counter lost it though, even with 1 GSa/s.
Thanks once again for your time and efforts! Not long after I asked you to run the tests, I found a BW chart posted in another thread specifying the 20MHz BW  :-[  (part of the problem with spread-out information on this blog) - so sorry for asking for the duplicated effort.

Using seronday's chart (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/msg337710/#msg337710) (red and green lines), I've revamped my earlier figure showing the (even bigger) risk of aliasing if not limiting the BW to 20MHz when running with 3/4 channels on. The roll-off of the DS1000Z is so slow, that frequency content above Nyquist could be aliasing as high as -2.5db when using 3/4 channels @ 250MSa/s.

Also if these numbers are correct, it's something that might be worth paying attention to even with just 2 channels on (when the Nyquist frequency is 250MHz - the green vertical line), since there will still be a reasonable chance of aliased content being sampled.

Again, this doesn't mean the DS1000Z isn't a great value for the money - it just means you have to remember the limitations when using multiple channels.

EDIT: Fixed a number of errors and added Stan Perkins' measurements (yellow dots and lines).

DS1000Z Frequency response and possible aliased content @ 250MSa/s (3/4 channels ON):

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113269)

I've also attached the datasheet for the ADC (HMCAD1511 - zipped) used in the DS1000Z (for those interested).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 15, 2014, 02:02:36 am
But to borrow and scale a phrase, a 100 MHz oscilloscope cannot track a 2.5 nanosecond edge but it should be able to measure a delay of 1.0 nanoseconds between two such edges.

Perhaps it 'should', but if the spec says the interchannel delays can be as much as 1-2 ns, using it for such measurements isn't something I'd care to rely on.

I took this specification to mean that when using multiple channels, the inputs are not simultaneously sampled.  Do we know what ADC the DS1054Z uses?

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And then I will look at the early LeCroy DSOs which were advertised as having digital triggers and find that they had timing resolution significantly higher than their real time sample rate would suggest.

That's true, but so what?  I have a 9300-series LeCroy, and two 9400-series.  And you are correct about their timing resolution/capabilities.  But they all had ETS (well, RIS), so they got that for "free", because they had a clock (or facsimile thereof) that ran 40x-50x faster.  I see interpolation capabilities in the ps range.  Back about 50 years ago, when I was using LeCroy scopes in the Physics labs at the Uni, picosecond events were extremely important.  But the current "affordable" scopes we're talking about were never intended for that purpose.

I used the LeCroy since it was already mentioned as a specific example where timing resolution is not limited by the ADC sample clock and digital triggering is used in place of ETS.  Wasn't LeCroy the first to implement digital triggering?  Maybe they just advertised it as such first.  I remember their advertisements saying how much superior it is to older analog ETS implementations.

They certainly are not making picosecond measurements with 100 MHz bandwidths but what I was trying to say earlier is that at these bandwidths, 100 picosecond resolution if not accuracy is reasonable either by using ETS or reconstruction.

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So what was the facsimile of the clock which allowed high resolution delay measurements?  RIS as they describe it sure sounds like what I described where transition midpoint timing (*) is derived after reconstruction.

I haven't researched the mechanism they used to implement it, but the 9400 (surprisingly the older generation of the two) has an absolute time-base accuracy spec of +/-10ps, and can do relative interpolation as you're describing, down to 5ps.  My 9300 may be better yet, but the manual is still packed away.

You would want low jitter in the timebase to prevent aliasing or at least not increase the distortion introduced by the digitizer.  On oscilloscopes which use ETS, the timebase jitter needs to be comparable or better than the ETS resolution no matter what the ADC sample rate and sampling error is and the same condition applies if digital triggering is used.

This leads to seemingly absurd implementations where a 20 MS/s ADC is paired with ETS with 500 picosecond resolution to yield a 2 GS/s equivalent time sample rate.  No 20 MS/S ADC is likely to support that however so . . . they include a low jitter sample and hold before the ADC so the ADC clock jitter is irrelevant.  Something very similar if not identical is done on these integrated ADCs so their sampling jitter only depends on their sample and hold.

The ADCs being used by Rigol seem to have about 5ps of aperture jitter but the big unknown is their clock source which I would expect to be more like 50ps but it could be worse.  50ps or worse is typical for an FPGA derived clock from a clean source and it would be worse yet if clock multiplication was used which I doubt they did.  Photos from some other Rigol DSOs show that the digitizer clock is not derived from the FPGA but we have no idea how good the integrated clock they used is except by measurement.

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That then comes out to 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.  Coincidentally, the delay calibration is *specified* in the user manual to be 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.

It's not a coincidence at all.  But it would be an easy trap to fall into (as I suspect you are) to then assume this implies something about the timebase capabilities of the hardware.  When instead it simply reflects a display-mapping capability.

I would actually expect it to be worse when clock jitter is taken into account but not by a whole lot so 100 picoseconds would be at best achievable after averaging.

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That is also insignificantly worse than the oldest 100 MHz ETS DSOs that I know of can do.

Probably true, and reflective of the fact that these are not ETS DSOs.   Which is kind of what Marmad and I have been trying to tell you.  >:D

And what I have been trying to say is that the difference between an ETS measurement and a triggered measurement made after reconstruction, even linear reconstruction in some cases, is a distinction without a difference as far as timing accuracy except insofar as aliasing has occurred.

If a pure sine source was used as a test signal and no aliasing occurred, then they would produce identical results.  But aliasing degrades the trigger accuracy when digital triggering is used and this happens whether a pure sine source is used or not because significant aliasing occurs do to distortion in the DSOs analog signal chain and digitizer.

The test using the DSA815 tracking generator will not reveal the above because the source itself has more distortion than the DSO analog front end and digitizer produce.

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Now maybe the DS1104Z cannot do the above with a single shot acquisition, but it sure should be able to because it is not difficult and the hardware is capable of supporting it.

 ;D ;D ;D ::)  "should""it is not difficult""the hardware is capable"?  That's a lot of assertions for one sentence.  Sadly there are many things that are not difficult, yet many DSO manufacturers leave them out.  And while there are many technique that could be used to improve the temporal resolution of a scope, that doesn't mean that Rigol incorporated any of them... perhaps due to cost, or difficulty trying to merge them with intensity grading, which they felt was more important/valuable.

I do not disagree but lets say I wanted to replace my good 100 MHz analog oscilloscope which has a trigger jitter in the 100ps range with a DS1104Z.  Does it support the same timing resolution?  This is not just an idle question; I make this sort of measurement all the time.  As far as I can tell, the DS1104Z hardware should support it.

Take the best case scenario with a DS1104Z DSO.  The signals are pure sine waves and averaging is used.  What is the minimum change in delay that can be measured?  What if square waves or fast edges are used instead of sine waves?  The Tektronix application note that Dave linked says under these conditions, ETS and triggering after sin(x)/x interpolation produce virtually identical results and they back it up with a bunch of calculated graphs.

Incidentally, this application note also discusses what could be the difference between a Rigol DS1054Z upgraded to 100 MHz and a DS1104Z.  For years (decades?) now high end DSOs have been implementing frequency and phase compensation after digitization with the filter coefficients determined by calibration at the time of manufacture and if these calibration coefficients are lost by say a backup battery going dead, the DSO becomes a doorstop unless you can get the manufacturer to do the calibration again.  The filter coefficients are even adjusted for different input attenuator settings.  As digital integration increases, it becomes less expensive in materials and time to do this compared to adjusting the analog signal path and I have not noticed any analog adjustments in photos of the DS1000Z or DS2000A series analog section.

If the DS1054Z is only calibrated this way for up to 50 MHz operation, then an upgraded DS1054Z should show transient response abnormalities compared to a true DS1104Z.

There is a guy on Ebay who rebuilds 150 MHz Tektronix 2445 oscilloscopes by removing the hardware bandwidth filter, setting a jumper to make the firmware think it is a 2465, and changing the faceplate to that of a 300 MHz 2465 oscilloscope.  These faux 2465s do indeed have 300 MHz bandwidth or higher but because the original 2445 lacks the rather ingenious frequency and phase compensation network included in a true 2465, the transient response is severely compromised.  Nobody noticed this on these Ebay specials for a long time because they just checked the bandwidth.

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The online reference I like to give for various TDC designs is currently down do to hosting issues but the relevant part of the description for a transition midpoint timing TDC is "A resolution of around 10ps or so is possible when using a 16 bit pipeline ADC clocked at 80MHz or more."  As I recall, these were popular in particle collision experiments because of their adequate resolution and accuracy and their very high measurement rate.

Yes, it was the nuclear physics lab that I was doing particle collision experiments with the LeCroys, back in the olden days.  Not really the 50 years I mentioned, but close enough that my recollections of details are extremely vague.  But I've spent a lot of time working with my own (antique) LeCroys, so I know them pretty well.  And I do rather like the 4000x4000 vector graphics displays (though the burn-in not so much).

I was not surprised to find out that transition midpoint timing or centroid timing TDCs using state of the art ADCs were developed or at least used in particle experiments.  What I find neat now is that cheap DSOs use the same principle.  The situation reminds me of years ago when it was predicted that 3 levels of cache memory used in workstations would migrate down to PCs and now they are not far from being in handheld devices as well.

We need to print up some stickers saying, "Nuclear Technology Inside!"

I have only played with LeCroy oscilloscopes briefly and never long enough for even a poor evaluation.  The 4000x4000 vector graphics display sounds like something I would expect them to do and last time I checked, they still made 12 bit high bandwidth real time DSOs.

The highest display resolution DSO I have is a 7854 (It is sort of a DSO if you squint hard.) which renders a 1024x1024 display and oddly enough uses 102.4 points per division instead of 100 like a sane DSO would.  Since its digitizer is 10 bits, this actually makes sense and it takes advantage of it!  I was very surprised a couple years ago but should not have been when first using it that I could literally see signal characteristics even on a non-index graded display which were invisible on other 8 bit DSOs no matter how I used them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 15, 2014, 02:04:21 am
Do we know what ADC the DS1054Z uses?

Just posted the datasheet (Hittite website: HMCAD1511 (https://www.hittite.com/products/view.html/view/HMCAD1511)) right above your comment two minutes before you posted this.  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 15, 2014, 02:22:57 am
Only the 120 MHz results looks weird to me but I think I know what causes it in this case.  I have seen something similar which appeared to be related to the aperture time of the digitizer implying a non-linear frequency response but I do not think that is it.

The 120MHz result is what I would expect as the sine wave frequency starts to approach the border of the Nyquist frequency (125MHz) - the appearance of amplitude modulation due to 'leakage' (perfectly reproducing a frequency exactly half that of the sampling rate only works in theory). As the frequency reaches Nyquist, the AM will become more extreme. At some point past Nyquist, there is the reappearance of an alias that looks like a normally amplified sine wave again.

I agree in principle although I would not call it leakage.  I took another look at that test and did some tests of my own to replicate it.  What I see does look like an alias folded back below the Nyquist frequency and relatively close to the fundamental.  What I was saying in my later post is that we cannot know if this was produced in the DSO or if it originated from the test signal because the later has much higher distortion than the DSO has.

It is tedious to do but looking at the 120 MHz example carefully, it looks like a 120 MHz fundamental which is expected with a large spur at 95 MHz and offhand I do not see a way to produce that with aliasing in this case so I think it is just distortion in the source.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 15, 2014, 02:36:51 am
Only the 120 MHz results looks weird to me but I think I know what causes it in this case.  I have seen something similar which appeared to be related to the aperture time of the digitizer implying a non-linear frequency response but I do not think that is it.

The 120MHz result is what I would expect as the sine wave frequency starts to approach the border of the Nyquist frequency (125MHz) - the appearance of amplitude modulation due to 'leakage' (perfectly reproducing a frequency exactly half that of the sampling rate only works in theory). As the frequency reaches Nyquist, the AM will become more extreme. At some point past Nyquist, there is the reappearance of an alias that looks like a normally amplified sine wave again.

I agree in principle although I would not call it leakage.  I took another look at that test and did some tests of my own to replicate it.  What I see does look like an alias folded back below the Nyquist frequency and relatively close to the fundamental.  What I was saying in my later post is that we cannot know if this was produced in the DSO or if it originated from the test signal because the later has much higher distortion than the DSO has.

It is tedious to do but looking at the 120 MHz example carefully, it looks like a 120 MHz fundamental which is expected with a large spur at 95 MHz and offhand I do not see a way to produce that with aliasing in this case so I think it is just distortion in the source.

Based on the deep AM I think it is very unlikely that this is produced by harmonics of the TG at 120 MHz. Those are at least 20 dB down wrt the fundamental and the "modulation depth" of the signal as shown on the screen is almost 50%.

Did a quick re-test with FTT on. TG at 120 MHz. THis is the best (resolution) I can get at these settings.
The 120 MHz component can be clearly seen, and it looks like at 130 MHz there is another one (confabulated by the scope  :( ). Exactly mirrored around the 125 MHz nyquist.
hmmm..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 15, 2014, 02:49:22 am
Using seronday's chart (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/msg337710/#msg337710), I've revamped my earlier figure showing the (even bigger) risk of aliasing if not limiting the BW to 20MHz when running with 3/4 channels on. The roll-off of the DS1000Z is so slow, that frequency content above Nyquist could be aliasing as high as almost -2db when using 3/4 channels @ 250MSa/s.

The reference dB was 0.98, so 125Mhz should be at around -3.2dB (given the -2.2 reading), no?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2014, 02:57:06 am
Analog ICs may get binned based on linearity, noise, bandwidth, offsets, current draw, etc.

Yep, but he was talking about speed.

Quote from: David Hess
The binning if they did this would be for distortion produced anywhere from the BNC to digitizer.

Based on what we know about the amplifiers and ADCs used, it could vary by about 12 dB or so.

As much as that? That's surprising.

I assume this is what the self calibration is for.

Does that affect bandwidth or just voltage measurements?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 15, 2014, 06:29:35 am
The reference dB was 0.98, so 125Mhz should be at around -3.2dB (given the -2.2 reading), no?
Thanks for pointing out the error. I screwed-up in a few different ways when I edited together the charts: I didn't move from log scale to linear for dB; I didn't fix seronday's odd BW scaling; and most importantly - I forgot that his chart was made on an unaltered DS1074Z - so it reflects a "70MHz" BW limit.

So I've redone and re-posted the chart back at the original message (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg530213/#msg530213) - adding dots and staight lines reflecting Stan Perkins' posted measurements for his 100MHz modified DS1054Z - but if anyone has a more detailed BW frequency response chart for a stock DS1104Z or modified DS1054Z, I'd be happy to add the data.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 15, 2014, 06:37:38 am
Did a quick re-test with FTT on. TG at 120 MHz. THis is the best (resolution) I can get at these settings.
The 120 MHz component can be clearly seen, and it looks like at 130 MHz there is another one (confabulated by the scope  :( ). Exactly mirrored around the 125 MHz nyquist.
hmmm..
Well better resolution is possible. See attached for FFT's with the TG at 120, 110 and 100 MHz.
the mirror image goes from a few dB's under the fundamental @ 120 Mhz to more than 20 dB with an 100 MHz input signal.
Definitely a DSO artifact, and not caused by spurious/harmonics of the TG..
The AM you saw in the earlier screenshot of the 120 MHz signal is definitely caused by mixing this 120 MHz and the confabulated 130 MHz by the DSO.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on October 15, 2014, 06:54:31 am


Me? I'm gonna relax and enjoy my 4-channel, top-build-quality, sub-100Mhz-with-four-channels-enabled, 300 Euro oscilloscope...  :-+ (thanks, Rigol!)
that is probably price without vat...on batronix....and that's not the best price in europe it seems to me (marmad already mentioned another option
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-oscillosope/msg514730/#msg514730 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-oscillosope/msg514730/#msg514730)
see marmad, i do know how to use search  ^-^  i can also read. a lot. esp. if it saves me money.  :-+ )

come to think i almost bought 1052 from china.  :palm:

and some leftovers from back pages:

rolycat (about the rigol and hacking)..that's a gray area but also an area where it would be real easy to prove (in the court of law) that rigol actually likes things to remain just like this. (just by showing sales figures for 1052)  ;D

marmad (about search capabilities)...just like i wrote in added edit "it's over, google found us just now, now everybody knows!" which was written prior to your post.
so yeah, now you can, but then? no.
what surprised me was the forum search had the simillar lag as google....

it essentially boils down to what miguelvp said few posts later
Quote
They tried to prevent it but they didn't use the algorithm properly and the private key kind of leaked, don't recall the details, they are buried in the monster thread somewhere.

or what you said
Quote
(part of the problem with spread-out information on this blog)

now, i know what that thread is, but 99% of the planet doesn't, but in essence you're right...who cares if they don't? 1% (or less) of populaton knows what scope is anyway....  ;D

overall a good post from miguel there, and just about the only thing rigol could do (bare in mind that they have rather lil incentive to do anything if sales go like this, and they will go) is to connect scope to web and then update every so often to check if it was hacked (if so, then you..huhm...pay to u nlock it again? hehe).
but nobody would buy such a scope.  ;)


somebody mentioned tek analog scopes of high bandwidth: these flopped for me just based on dimensions....1054z is about the size of 10mhz portable scopes that are now 30 years old.
that's pretty amazing.
(not going into performance specs at all, tek just won't fit on my table (and is not protable at all), and i won't be getting bigger table because of analog scope...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 15, 2014, 07:01:33 am
Definitely a DSO artifact, and not caused by spurious/harmonics of the TG..
The AM you saw in the earlier screenshot of the 120 MHz signal is definitely caused by mixing this 120 MHz and the confabulated 130 MHz by the DSO.
When the upper and lower sidebands created by sampling start overlapping (when approaching Nyquist), first you can get false AM (taught as "leakage" by an old EE teacher of mine) and then aliases.

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113279)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 15, 2014, 07:30:08 am
For people in Belgium, the Netherlands or Luxembourg: The importer arBenelux has only 1 DS1054Z oscilloscope in stock, they hope to receive more before November 1. There is a big electronics fair in the Netherlands on November 1 "Dag voor de Radio Amateur"
http://www.veron.nl/activiteiten/details/activiteiten_dvdra.html (http://www.veron.nl/activiteiten/details/activiteiten_dvdra.html)

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 15, 2014, 10:05:14 am
It is tedious to do but looking at the 120 MHz example carefully, it looks like a 120 MHz fundamental which is expected with a large spur at 95 MHz and offhand I do not see a way to produce that with aliasing in this case so I think it is just distortion in the source.
No, it's a byproduct of sampling a frequency very close to Nyquist: a false appearance of amplitude modulation. The "modulating signal" is caused by leakage of the fundamental frequency. Here's an image I altered demonstrating the process in action (the red dots are the sample points connected via linear interpolation):

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113296)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on October 15, 2014, 11:33:58 am
did you just steal my book?
 :-DD

yes, it's a good one...

as for quasi am, got that recently by connecting square wave gen (2.4khz) to tank circuit...on analog scope...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 15, 2014, 03:25:38 pm
Quote from: David Hess
The binning if they did this would be for distortion produced anywhere from the BNC to digitizer.

Based on what we know about the amplifiers and ADCs used, it could vary by about 12 dB or so.

As much as that? That's surprising.

I assume this is what the self calibration is for.

Does that affect bandwidth or just voltage measurements?

I am going by the datasheet specifications for subranging ADCs and amplifiers typically used in these DSOs.  The distortion of the ADC and signal conditioning could vary over that much range between good and not quite as good parts.  Self calibration only applies to the ADC and the numbers include it.  The ADCs are actually surprisingly good.

That number is only an estimate.  It could be worse in poor designs if for instance decoupling is poor or if the sample clock has high jitter which is a common problem.

Note that I do not think the ICs are binned.  I am just suggesting that Rigol might bin the completed boards during self testing because distortion could vary over that wide a range and it gets worse at higher frequencies.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 15, 2014, 03:51:05 pm
Do we know what ADC the DS1054Z uses?

Just posted the datasheet (Hittite website: HMCAD1511 (https://www.hittite.com/products/view.html/view/HMCAD1511)) right above your comment two minutes before you posted this.  ;D

Doh!

It was early and I had too much blood in my caffeine stream and the Tardis is in the shop.

Reading the ADC datasheet shows how Rigol likely did gain correction.

I will trade you links though.  A friend forwarded this link to me.  His daughter has to study this video for some class she is doing.  Check out the explanations for Gibbs phenomenon and how reconstruction of a perfect edge works toward the end.

D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell (Monty Montgomery @ xiph.org) - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 15, 2014, 03:56:26 pm
What I meant when I refereed to this is that the distortion from the TG is going to conceal the distortion in the DSO unlike that other test with the video I linked to where an RF synthesizer intended for receiver testing was used.  The DSO will show aliasing from the TG distortion products.

Ah yes I now see what you mean.  Unfortunately I have nothing here (readily available) that can produce a 100MHz-ish signal where spurious is down more than 50 dB. Could build it (say a 5 pole low-pass after a 100 MHz generator) but not now.
But then again: are we going to see -50dB spurious signals back into the "passband" and into the display? with 8 bit A/D? what am I missing here...

I was thinking the same thing.  Hack together a simple tuned LC bandpass filter or actually, the frequency range is high enough that maybe a helical resonator could be used.

The 8 bit subranging  ADCs typically used have a spurious free dynamic range which could be as low as 47 dB and and effective number of bits which could be as low as 7.1 bits.  The signal conditioning before that probably will not make it any worse if it is at that level but if it was better which will be typical then it might.

-50 dB spurs may or may not be visible.

While I was out today I had a better idea for a test or at least a more relevant one.  Use a fast transition 1 to 4 MHz flat level crystal controlled square wave and measure the jitter.  Aliasing will occur but how well the DSO handles that counts.  To me that is a more relevant measurement of performance anyway.

I have a couple signal generators as described specifically intended for testing horizontal sweeps and transient response.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2014, 08:44:35 pm
Me? I'm gonna relax and enjoy my 4-channel, top-build-quality, sub-100Mhz-with-four-channels-enabled, 300 Euro oscilloscope...  :-+ (thanks, Rigol!)
that is probably price without vat...on batronix....

Yep. I got mine from Batronix ... and I didn't pay VAT  (because I'm European VAT registered and I don't live in Germany).


Check out the explanations for Gibbs phenomenon and how reconstruction of a perfect edge works toward the end.

D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell (Monty Montgomery @ xiph.org) - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM)

Nice video. Those last few minutes certainly need some mulling over to adjust my worldview.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 15, 2014, 09:01:41 pm
I will trade you links though.  A friend forwarded this link to me.  His daughter has to study this video for some class she is doing.  Check out the explanations for Gibbs phenomenon and how reconstruction of a perfect edge works toward the end.

D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell (Monty Montgomery @ xiph.org) - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM)
I have found that video, and a couple of related ones by the same guy, to be the best things to refer someone to when they start some brain dead discourse about a sampled signal being a staircase or triangles or other bizarre notion.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2014, 09:28:06 pm
I have found that video, and a couple of related ones by the same guy, to be the best things to refer someone to when they start some brain dead discourse about a sampled signal being a staircase or triangles or other bizarre notion.

One thing I don't understand about sampling.... how are the samples actually taken?

Are the samples taken at an instant in time (or in a narrow window) as the theories seem to suggest? In that case, what happens if you sample a sine wave at exactly twice the frequency (eg. 1kHz sine wave, 2kHz sampler)?

a) If I sample at the peaks/troughs, everything is OK.

b) If I sample at the zero-crossing points then the wave will completely disappear (all my samples will be zero).

c) I can also sample at any point between (a) and (b), getting a 1KHz wave with different amplitudes.

If the sampler is very slightly out of sync with the incoming waveform (eg. if I sample at 2.0001 kHz) then I ought to see a 1kHz sine wave with pulsating amplitude, right?

Widening the sample window and taking an average doesn't seem to help, so... how do samplers work?


PS: Sorry for the off-topic, but the last few pages have been full of signal theory.


Edit:

This image shows what I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem#mediaviewer/File:CriticalFrequencyAliasing.svg

At the "critical frequency" (I just found out it has a name) the original wave could have any amplitude at all...even infinite amplitude!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 15, 2014, 10:14:33 pm
Are the samples taken at an instant in time (or in a narrow window) as the theories seem to suggest? In that case, what happens if you sample a sine wave at exactly twice the frequency (eg. 1kHz sine wave, 2kHz sampler)?

a) If I sample at the peaks/troughs, everything is OK.

b) If I sample at the zero-crossing points then the wave will completely disappear (all my samples will be zero).

c) I can also sample at any point between (a) and (b), getting a 1KHz wave with different amplitudes.

In DSOs, most sampling normally occurs at uniformly-spaced, instances of time - although there are exceptions. For example, Agilent uses random decimation for slower sample rates to produce nonuniform sampling in order to eliminate aliasing, but at the expense of introducing noise.

And the quandary you bring up about sampling a frequency at fs/2, or even frequencies very close to the Nyquist frequency (like pa3bca's 120MHz - which was fs/2.08) - i.e. that the frequency locations are unknown - is one of the reasons that, although sampling theory states that a sample-rate of 2*BW or larger is sufficient to reproduce frequencies < BW, most papers on DSO sampling and interpolation speak about a fs/2.5 ratio as the absolute minimum for reconstruction.

As seen in pa3bca's images, fs/2.5 (250MSa/2.5 = 100MHz) is working correctly - at least for the simple sine wave ;).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 16, 2014, 12:32:47 am
It would be nice if there was a website e.g. scopeperformance.com, where experts have measured the actual bandwidth for commercial scopes using the proper equipment.

They could sort the scopes per brand, and by advertised bandwidth, and add a confirmed bandwidth next to it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 12:59:34 am
They could sort the scopes per brand, and by advertised bandwidth, and add a confirmed bandwidth next to it.

Just the BW alone would be pointless information by itself. As David Hess noted in this story before:

There is a guy on Ebay who rebuilds 150 MHz Tektronix 2445 oscilloscopes by removing the hardware bandwidth filter, setting a jumper to make the firmware think it is a 2465, and changing the faceplate to that of a 300 MHz 2465 oscilloscope.  These faux 2465s do indeed have 300 MHz bandwidth or higher but because the original 2445 lacks the rather ingenious frequency and phase compensation network included in a true 2465, the transient response is severely compromised.  Nobody noticed this on these Ebay specials for a long time because they just checked the bandwidth.

As he mentions elsewhere in his post, owners reporting that they've changed their DS1000Zs, DS2000As, DS4000s, etc. into the highest BW models by just measuring the BW doesn't actually prove it conclusively. Rigol may be storing filter coefficients determined by calibration at the time of manufacture to implement frequency and phase compensation - and even though you can enter a keycode to change the low-pass filter, it doesn't necessarily mean that the DSO is perfectly calibrated for that BW.

Remember, Rigol doesn't actually SELL bandwidth upgrades. If they did, it would be more likely that those BW-unlocking codes were doing the job completely - since money would be riding on it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 16, 2014, 01:35:11 am
Can these calibration coefficients be read-out?
This way it would be possible to verify if they differ a lot between e.g. an original MDO2302A and an MSO2072A.

Or can the errors be measured with more extensive measurements besides BW measurement?
Is there a systematic way to do this, according to a unified, standardized test framework, where different test users could contribute to complement the database on the Internet?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 01:41:20 am
Can these calibration coefficients be read-out?
This way it would be possible to verify if they differ a lot between e.g. an original MDO2302A and an MSO2072A.

Or can the errors be measured with more extensive measurements besides BW measurement?
Is there a systematic way to do this, according to a unified, standardized test framework, where different test users could contribute to complement the database on the Internet?

To what end? By using unauthorized codes to unlock options, you are getting some extra bandwidth (whether it's perfectly compensated or not) for free. If your livelihood depends on that extra bandwidth, you really should be paying for it - rather than risking some hack.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 16, 2014, 01:42:25 am
I have found that video, and a couple of related ones by the same guy, to be the best things to refer someone to when they start some brain dead discourse about a sampled signal being a staircase or triangles or other bizarre notion.

One thing I don't understand about sampling.... how are the samples actually taken?

Are the samples taken at an instant in time (or in a narrow window) as the theories seem to suggest? In that case, what happens if you sample a sine wave at exactly twice the frequency (eg. 1kHz sine wave, 2kHz sampler)?

With a sampling converter, they are taken in a narrow window which usually has nothing to do with the sample rate.  With an integrating converter, the sampling duration is intimately related to the sample rate.  Delta-sigma converters are integrating converters and DSOs act as if they have integrating converters when operating in high resolution mode.

Quote
a) If I sample at the peaks/troughs, everything is OK.

b) If I sample at the zero-crossing points then the wave will completely disappear (all my samples will be zero).

c) I can also sample at any point between (a) and (b), getting a 1KHz wave with different amplitudes.

If the sampler is very slightly out of sync with the incoming waveform (eg. if I sample at 2.0001 kHz) then I ought to see a 1kHz sine wave with pulsating amplitude, right?

If everything is perfect then yes and this is where I disagree with some here.  The behavior of practical instruments with perfect inputs close to the Nyquist frequency is a reflection of imperfections in the digitizer including sampling error and non-linearity which produce distortion not present in the original signal.  If the distortion produced in the digitizer is above the Nyquist frequency, it causes aliasing.  With a better digitizer, you can get more accurate reconstructions closer to the Nyquist frequency.  Usually the simplest way to get a better digitizer is to increase the sampling rate.

Quote
Widening the sample window and taking an average doesn't seem to help, so... how do samplers work?

As a practical manner they do average or sort of average the input over some duration of time but usually this is much smaller than the length of time between samples.  The sampling duration sets an upper limit on the input bandwidth and creates a non-linear frequency response limiting the 3 dB bandwidth to 0.442/t.  If the sampling duration was 1ns for instance, there would be a 3 dB input bandwidth of 442 MHz and null at 1 GHz and every integer multiple of 1 GHz which is not something you find in a linear system.  This also changes the bandwidth to rise time relationship so it is no longer the bandwidth = 0.35/tr found with a single pole rolloff but more like 0.47/tr.  This is different than using a sharp anti-aliasing filter which is linear but which also affects the rise time similarly.

Old style sampling oscilloscopes have tiny sampling durations measured in picoseconds giving them very high bandwidths but their frequency response is decidedly non-linear and the bandwidth = 0.35/tr relationship does not usually apply to them.

Quote
This image shows what I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem#mediaviewer/File:CriticalFrequencyAliasing.svg

At the "critical frequency" (I just found out it has a name) the original wave could have any amplitude at all...even infinite amplitude!

If you sample synchronously so the input is at the Nyquist frequency, then you get an in indeterminate output which changes based on the phase relationship.  Sampling phase detectors take advantage of this.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 16, 2014, 01:54:01 am
Can these calibration coefficients be read-out?
This way it would be possible to verify if they differ a lot between e.g. an original MDO2302A and an MSO2072A.

If they exist then maybe but it is not required.  See below.

Quote
Or can the errors be measured with more extensive measurements besides BW measurement?

Is there a systematic way to do this, according to a unified, standardized test framework, where different test users could contribute to complement the database on the Internet?

Sure, I do it all the time.  Use a reference flat top pulse generator and measure the transient response.  I suspect there is also a way to do this using vector network analyser techniques but a VNA guru should answer that.

Almost as good and more useful would be to compare the transient response of the upgraded DSO to the true one.  If there is a calibration or grading difference, it should be revealed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 16, 2014, 02:00:26 am
Can these calibration coefficients be read-out?
This way it would be possible to verify if they differ a lot between e.g. an original MDO2302A and an MSO2072A.

Or can the errors be measured with more extensive measurements besides BW measurement?
Is there a systematic way to do this, according to a unified, standardized test framework, where different test users could contribute to complement the database on the Internet?

To what end? By using unauthorized codes to unlock options, you are getting some extra bandwidth (whether it's perfectly compensated or not) for free. If your livelihood depends on that extra bandwidth, you really should be paying for it - rather than risking some hack.

The guy who was converting those analog Tektronix oscilloscopes I mentioned made the same argument and I largely agree.  What we disapproved of was him selling the modified oscilloscopes and representing them as the originals as far as performance with no notification of the difference which would have lowered their selling price.

If you used one of the modified oscilloscopes expecting the clean transient response of the true ones, your measurements would be compromised.  People who are using 300+ MHz oscilloscopes with passive x10 probes are unlikely to see the difference except under ideal conditions.  The same is likely to apply here.  How many people are looking at 3.5 nanosecond and faster transition time signals with their Rigol DS1054Z which has been hacked to 100 MHz and would notice?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 05:00:17 am
If the sampler is very slightly out of sync with the incoming waveform (eg. if I sample at 2.0001 kHz) then I ought to see a 1kHz sine wave with pulsating amplitude, right?
If everything is perfect then yes...
Absolutely not. As already shown in both my earlier posted drawing and pa3bca's 120MHz image, both the amplitude and frequency are shifted by leakage when close to Nyquist. This is not much of an issue in the time domain, since no one normally attempts to sample and reconstruct signals close to fs/2 - but in the frequency domain it's a different story because of the nature of the FFT process, and has led to various adaptive sampling-frequency algorithms.

Quote
...and this is where I disagree with some here.
Sorry David, you may disagree - but you're just plain wrong. :)  This has nothing to do with digitizers - it's just math. I dug around online and found the following info for you from a computational physics course:

"To see the problem of frequency leakage, one can simply look at a plot of the function f(t)=cos(3t) and the sampled data points with a sampling rate of one per second ( red circle)."

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113353)

"In this case, the sampling rate is one per second and its corresponding Nyquist frequency is 0.5 Hz. The actual frequency of the function is 0.477 Hz (3/2pi) and under-sampling is not a problem. However, the mismatch of the the fundamental frequency and the sampling frequency introduces spurious low frequency components in the sampled data. Note the slow oscillation in the sampled data. The result of this mismatch is that the power of the fundamental frequency leaks into other frequencies. This can be seen from the following power spectra."

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113355)

"The peaks at the fundamental frequency are broadened by this effect. As the total length of the data increases, the resolution in frequencies increases and the peak at the fundamental frequency gets sharper."
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 16, 2014, 05:41:10 am
The Rigol R&D department consists of many highly skilled electrical engineers, with master degrees, and probably many with PhD degree as well. They know all these mathematics and physics very well.
So from that perspective their equipment should be designed to meet all the constraints imposed by physical laws and sampling theorems.

Therefore I believe that their low-pass filter, ADC specs, and software algorithms are most likely well engineered and configured in an optimal way.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 16, 2014, 06:34:11 am
The Rigol R&D department consists of many highly skilled electrical engineers, with master degrees, and probably many with PhD degree as well. They know all these mathematics and physics very well.
So from that perspective their equipment should be designed to meet all the constraints imposed by physical laws and sampling theorems.

Therefore I believe that their low-pass filter, ADC specs, and software algorithms are most likely well engineered and configured in an optimal way.

The first sentence: yes, obviously. "You canna break the laws of physics captain"
Second sentence: No.
You left out at least two other important dimensions. Money and time. Where money is probably the most important one..
For instance very good/sharp roll off filters are expensive and introduce other issues. So no, at $399 this is not the best that is technically possible given physics laws.. But for the money it comes d*mned close and it is certainly well engineered..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 16, 2014, 06:45:04 am
Absolutely not. As already shown in both my earlier posted drawing and pa3bca's 120MHz image, both the amplitude and frequency are shifted by leakage when close to Nyquist. This is not much of an issue in the time domain, since no one normally attempts to sample and reconstruct signals close to fs/2 - but in the frequency domain it's a different story because of the nature of the FFT process, and has led to various adaptive sampling-frequency algorithms.

Quote
...and this is where I disagree with some here.
Sorry David, you may disagree - but you're plain wrong. :)  This has nothing to do with digitizers - it's just math. I dug around online and found the following info for you from a computational physics course:
Agree with Marmad.
With the fundamental near fs/2 the mirror frequency (i.e. fs-f) has almost the same amplitude shown by the scope (see the FFT's)
My 120 MHz has a "mirror frequency" of 250(fs)-120 = 130 MHz. Add these to together and you get an amplitude modulated signal with an modulation frequency of 130-120 = 10 MHz. See attached screenshot with the TG at 120 MHz and 250 Ms/s.

No way this can be caused by harmonics/spurious of the 120 MHz TG signal. (I can find no other mathematical relation, and the amplitudes would be way off)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 16, 2014, 09:32:00 am
And the quandary you bring up about sampling a frequency at fs/2, or even frequencies very close to the Nyquist frequency (like pa3bca's 120MHz - which was fs/2.08) - i.e. that the frequency locations are unknown - is one of the reasons that, although sampling theory states that a sample-rate of 2*BW or larger is sufficient to reproduce frequencies < BW, most papers on DSO sampling and interpolation speak about a fs/2.5 ratio as the absolute minimum for reconstruction.

...and presumably the"bandwidth times ten" grows upwards from there.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 01:05:57 pm
So no, at $399 this is not the best that is technically possible given physics laws.. But for the money it comes d*mned close and it is certainly well engineered..

The price is pretty astounding. The ADC alone is listed at ~$62 in quantities of 500 from Digikey.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 16, 2014, 06:49:44 pm
So no, at $399 this is not the best that is technically possible given physics laws.. But for the money it comes d*mned close and it is certainly well engineered..

The price is pretty astounding. The ADC alone is listed at ~$62 in quantities of 500 from Digikey.

Rigol can probably get it cheaper but yeah, it would be interesting to see the BOM. It's hard to see how they're making any money on these. As noted, they don't seem to be skimping on components or materials.

I guess it's because they've been selling them more expensive for a while (DS1074Z/DS1104Z) and have got enough R&D investment back to make the $400 DS1054Z possible.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 07:34:11 pm
The price is pretty astounding. The ADC alone is listed at ~$62 in quantities of 500 from Digikey.
Pricing up the BOM of a product from Digikey prices is like pricing up the BOM of a car from the cost of spares at your local dealer.

I suspect Rigol buy at least 501 of these devices and get a somewhat better price.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 09:36:49 pm
Pricing up the BOM of a product from Digikey prices is like pricing up the BOM of a car from the cost of spares at your local dealer.

Not quite. It's more like getting the price of 500 catalytic converters from a wholesaler of automobile parts.

Quote
I suspect Rigol buy at least 501 of these devices and get a somewhat better price.  :)

Obviously. But this is an oscilloscope, not an iPhone - Rigol's not selling 12 million (or even 12 thousand) a month. I never suspected they paid close to that amount, but that (and the $73 single-unit price) gives me a ballpark idea of what they might be paying for it.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 16, 2014, 10:06:41 pm
Just watched the teardown video...

The analog input part is a lot more complicated than I would have guessed.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 10:19:14 pm
But this is an oscilloscope, not an iPhone - Rigol's not selling 12 million (or even 12 thousand) a month. I never suspected they paid close to that amount, but that (and the $73 single-unit price) gives me a ballpark idea of what they might be paying for it.  :)
Oscilloscope volumes can be surprisingly high, and Rigol is one of the more successful players. I wouldn't be surprised if they made 12k a month of this entry level model. I would be very surprised if they paid even $10 for that ADC chip.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 10:27:12 pm
Oscilloscope volumes can be surprisingly high, and Rigol is one of the more successful players. I wouldn't be surprised if they made 12k a month of this entry level model. I would be very surprised if they paid even $10 for that ADC chip.

Would like to post some actual data to support any of this?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 10:38:23 pm
Oscilloscope volumes can be surprisingly high, and Rigol is one of the more successful players. I wouldn't be surprised if they made 12k a month of this entry level model. I would be very surprised if they paid even $10 for that ADC chip.

Would like to post some actual data to support any of this?
I was amazed to find a very obscure maker of simple scopes was making a couple of thousand a month some years ago, so 12k a month for a world class producer doesn't sound odd to me.

As for the IC price, just look at the pricing of most stuff on Digikey, compared to what real negotiated prices look like. Some of them are 50 times a reasonable price. You go to Digikey to get a few bits quickly to make experimental setups and prototypes. Its not where you go for serious production. I'm not knocking Digikey. Convenience is expensive to provide. The die for this chip isn't going to be huge, although the test costs might be significant - high speed mixed signal testing costs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 16, 2014, 10:45:24 pm
"To see the problem of frequency leakage, one can simply look at a plot of the function f(t)=cos(3t) and the sampled data points with a sampling rate of one per second ( red circle)."

"In this case, the sampling rate is one per second and its corresponding Nyquist frequency is 0.5 Hz. The actual frequency of the function is 0.477 Hz (3/2pi) and under-sampling is not a problem. However, the mismatch of the the fundamental frequency and the sampling frequency introduces spurious low frequency components in the sampled data. Note the slow oscillation in the sampled data. The result of this mismatch is that the power of the fundamental frequency leaks into other frequencies. This can be seen from the following power spectra."

"The peaks at the fundamental frequency are broadened by this effect. As the total length of the data increases, the resolution in frequencies increases and the peak at the fundamental frequency gets sharper."

I do not disagree with any of the above.  I think it is being applied incorrectly here.

The sampled points shown alone display exactly what is described but the examples I am familiar with include sin(x)/x reconstruction after sampling which reproduces the original waveform including the peaks correctly.

On DSOs that I have used under the proper conditions (I would not normally be measuring pure sine waves close to Nyquist) I can generate exactly what is shown and described with reconstruction disabled and then restore the original waveform, which is close to Nyquist but not exceeding it, with reconstruction turned on.  If aliasing is present for whatever reason, and it will always be present because of imperfections in the digitizer no matter how pure the input signal is, then that fails and I get the result described anyway in a lessor or greater form.  That is a distinction without a difference on the practical side but is not what is being described above.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 10:46:04 pm
I was amazed to find a very obscure maker of simple scopes was making a couple of thousand a month some years ago, so 12k a month for a world class producer doesn't sound odd to me.

As for the IC price, just look at the pricing of most stuff on Digikey, compared to what real negotiated prices look like. Some of them are 50 times a reasonable price. You go to Digikey to get a few bits quickly to make experimental setups and prototypes. Its not where you go for serious production. I'm not knocking Digikey. Convenience is expensive to provide. The die for this chip isn't going to be huge, although the test costs might be significant - high speed mixed signal testing costs.

I love your enthusiasm and righteousness, but once again - I posted a fact: HMCAD5211 at $62 for 500 units - you've posted stories and speculation, but no actual data. Most people know good (and even not so good) ADCs are expensive - even in quantities of 10k.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 11:12:24 pm
I love your enthusiasm and righteousness, but once again - I posted a fact: HMCAD5211 at $62 for 500 units - you've posted stories and speculation, but no actual data. Most people know good (and even not so good) ADCs are expensive - even in quantities of 10k.
Get real. You quoted a Digikey price. For a quantity of 500 the vendor won't talk to you, but their main distributors will. If you'd quoted a price from them you'd have more credibility.

Let's say Rigol only make 2k a month. They've made the previous model for about 7 or 8 years, haven't they? If this model runs as long that would be 170k or so. You can start talking about serious contracted prices with the vendor for a production run like that and a fairly high value part.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 16, 2014, 11:15:37 pm
I love your enthusiasm and righteousness, but once again - I posted a fact: HMCAD5211 at $62 for 500 units - you've posted stories and speculation, but no actual data. Most people know good (and even not so good) ADCs are expensive - even in quantities of 10k.

I found the same price and did not think much of it other than what an amazing deal even though Digi-Key and similar distributors will be at the high end of the price scale.  I would hope Rigol is buying directly from Hittite with their volume.

I remember similar parts in the past costing at least an order of magnitude more for less performance and functionality.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 11:19:30 pm
Get real. You quoted a Digikey price.

Yes, I quoted a price. OTOH, you've invented sales volumes and prices.  :)

I would hope Rigol is buying directly from Hittite with their volume.

I would think so. Not so sure about the < $10 a piece price though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 11:30:24 pm
I love your enthusiasm and righteousness, but once again - I posted a fact: HMCAD5211 at $62 for 500 units - you've posted stories and speculation, but no actual data. Most people know good (and even not so good) ADCs are expensive - even in quantities of 10k.

I found the same price and did not think much of it other than what an amazing deal even though Digi-Key and similar distributors will be at the high end of the price scale.  I would hope Rigol is buying directly from Hittite with their volume.

I remember similar parts in the past costing at least an order of magnitude more for less performance and functionality.

Its not that long ago you couldn't buy such functionality as a chip, even at exotic niche product prices. Times change, and devices like this do have volume applications now. Hittite describes (or is it described now they are part of ADI) itself as a microwave company. That tells you what their core market is.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 17, 2014, 12:36:57 am
The sampled points shown alone display exactly what is described but the examples I am familiar with include sin(x)/x reconstruction after sampling which reproduces the original waveform including the peaks correctly.

I'm not sure I understand you. It's obvious that sin(x)/x being run on the displayed sampled points will not reproduce the original waveform correctly. In fact, not only does sin(x)/x interpolation reproduce just what we saw in pa3bca's 120MHz image, but I can reproduce the exact same results by setting my DSO at any sampling rate and sending it a sine wave with the frequency of ~fs/2.08 (and other frequencies close to - but less than - the Nyquist frequency).

Quote
On DSOs that I have used under the proper conditions (I would not normally be measuring pure sine waves close to Nyquist) I can generate exactly what is shown and described with reconstruction disabled and then restore the original waveform, which is close to Nyquist but not exceeding it, with reconstruction turned on.

I don't know what you mean by 'the proper conditions', but the math above says that it would be extremely difficult to do that over much time. The Nyquist theorem simply states that if a signal contains no frequencies higher than B, it is mathematically possible to reproduce it by a series of points spaced 1/(2B). It says nothing about the length of the sampling. Leakage occurs over time; it's window dependent - e.g. if you just sample a cycle or two of a 120MHz sine wave at 250MSa/s, you can get a reproduction of the frequency of the waveform - thus satisfying the Nyquist theorem. But if you begin to sample more cycles than that, leakage WILL occur.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 17, 2014, 05:59:11 am
The sampled points shown alone display exactly what is described but the examples I am familiar with include sin(x)/x reconstruction after sampling which reproduces the original waveform including the peaks correctly.

I'm not sure I understand you. It's obvious that sin(x)/x being run on the displayed sampled points will not reproduce the original waveform correctly. In fact, not only does sin(x)/x interpolation reproduce just what we saw in pa3bca's 120MHz image, but I can reproduce the exact same results by setting my DSO at any sampling rate and sending it a sine wave with the frequency of ~fs/2.08 (and other frequencies close to - but less than - the Nyquist frequency).

Quote
On DSOs that I have used under the proper conditions (I would not normally be measuring pure sine waves close to Nyquist) I can generate exactly what is shown and described with reconstruction disabled and then restore the original waveform, which is close to Nyquist but not exceeding it, with reconstruction turned on.

I don't know what you mean by 'the proper conditions', but the math above says that it would be extremely difficult to do that over much time. The Nyquist theorem simply states that if a signal contains no frequencies higher than B, it is mathematically possible to reproduce it by a series of points spaced 1/(2B). It says nothing about the length of the sampling. Leakage occurs over time; it's window dependent - e.g. if you just sample a cycle or two of a 120MHz sine wave at 250MSa/s, you can get a reproduction of the frequency of the waveform - thus satisfying the Nyquist theorem. But if you begin to sample more cycles than that, leakage WILL occur.
Yes and what we have seen has nothing to do with the impurities of the applied signal. Yes impurities above Nyquist will fold back and show up, but even with my DSA815's 'crappy' TG this would be far down in the noise (i.e invisible).

As further proof: 24 MHz generated by my DG1032Z, DS2072A at 50 MSa/s.
Spurious of the DG1032 is at -60dB(2nd harmonic) to -70dB for others. Not stellar but quite sufficient thank you. So now we might all agree that spurious signals cannot have any visible influence on the displayed signals.
And as expected the scope shows an 'Amplitude modulated" signal. Modulation frequency of (25-24) - (25-26) = 2 MHz, 26 MHz being the "mirror" of the 24 MHz signal wrt to Fnyquist. All as explained by Marmad.
And (but maybe I misunderstood David) reconstruction will not restore the original 24 MHz waveform.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Electro Fan on October 17, 2014, 07:01:50 am

As further proof: 24 MHz generated by my DG1032Z, DS2072A at 50 MSa/s.
Spurious of the DG1032 is at -60dB(2nd harmonic) to -70dB for others. Not stellar but quite sufficient thank you. So now we might all agree that spurious signals cannot have any visible influence on the displayed signals.
And as expected the scope shows an 'Amplitude modulated" signal. Modulation frequency of (25-24) - (25-26) = 2 MHz, 26 MHz being the "mirror" of the 24 MHz signal wrt to Fnyquist/2. All as explained by Marmad.
And (but maybe I misunderstood David) reconstruction will not restore the original 24 MHz waveform.

pa3bca, what Rigol product or user interface is shown in the image below? Maybe PC software or something else associated with the DG1032Z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 17, 2014, 07:05:32 am
pa3bca, what Rigol product or user interface is shown in the image below?
Rigol DSA815 TG Spectrum Analyzer.
I wanted to have an SA since I was 14 years old or so (looong time ago). Too expensive (then) or to bulky&expensive for hobby use until this came out.
Bought one immediately, very happy with it!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Electro Fan on October 17, 2014, 07:08:46 am
Very nice - please explain the cabling setup you used with the SA, DG1032Z, and scope.  How do you like the DG1032Z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 17, 2014, 07:18:30 am
Very nice - please explain the setup you used with the SA, DG1032Z, and scope.  How do you like the DG1032Z?
Oh I used the DG1032Z to output a 24 MHz sine at 0dBm. Into the spectrum analyzer to check the output/spurious. (as shown above).
Notice how the SA agrees exactly on the output level of 0.00 dBm  :) I find both the SA and the DG performing very nice (well, all my Rigol stuff performs nice, especially if you look at the price points).
Then the the output of the DG to my DS2072 ("upgraded").
The DG1032Z performs nicely, in spec, use it a lot. The fan however is was rather noisy, easily the noisiest of all my Rigol devices. And it has I think the lowest power consumption of them all so go figure. I replaced the 50mm fan with a quite one, now it is almost inaudible and all stays cool enough.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 17, 2014, 03:08:56 pm
I remember similar parts in the past costing at least an order of magnitude more for less performance and functionality.

Its not that long ago you couldn't buy such functionality as a chip, even at exotic niche product prices. Times change, and devices like this do have volume applications now. Hittite describes (or is it described now they are part of ADI) itself as a microwave company. That tells you what their core market is.

Tektronix was making their own custom high speed ADCs when they sold their silicon fab to Maxim and then they bought from Maxim and others got access to those high speed ADCs as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 17, 2014, 03:18:26 pm
Tektronix was making their own custom high speed ADCs when they sold their silicon fab to Maxim and then they bought from Maxim and others got access to those high speed ADCs as well.
That was 20 years ago. Back then Maxim would not have been able to sell a high performance converter to a Chinese company. Even now Chinese companies wanting state of the art converters end up sending delegations to Washington to plead for them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 17, 2014, 03:18:49 pm
Yes and what we have seen has nothing to do with the impurities of the applied signal. Yes impurities above Nyquist will fold back and show up, but even with my DSA815's 'crappy' TG this would be far down in the noise (i.e invisible).

I agree because I was looking for two different things and I think I got the math wrong and saw the image instead of the distortion but now I have a better idea.

Quote
And (but maybe I misunderstood David) reconstruction will not restore the original 24 MHz waveform.

I cannot find it now but you or someone else said the distortion would not have been high enough to create the AM modulation depth we saw so I was thinking about what could cause that.  The image added to the fundamental would do it if the image was lower amplitude and the reconstruction filter is attenuating the image would cause that.  Does that explain it?

If the reconstruction filter has a finite attenuation at the mirror frequency, then it should add back to the fundamental and cause large but not 100% AM modulation.  Does that make this test a way to measure what order and type of reconstruction filter Rigol used?

This fits with the earlier post marmad made about leakage.  I know I have run across that before but did not recognize it because the terminology was different.  A sharper reconstruction filter would allow one to get closer to the Nyquist frequency.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 17, 2014, 03:30:28 pm
Tektronix was making their own custom high speed ADCs when they sold their silicon fab to Maxim and then they bought from Maxim and others got access to those high speed ADCs as well.

That was 20 years ago. Back then Maxim would not have been able to sell a high performance converter to a Chinese company. Even now Chinese companies wanting state of the art converters end up sending delegations to Washington to plead for them.

I had not considered that but I am sure it was the case because of export restrictions.  They continued to make custom ICs for Tektronix as well for at least some time.  I have one Maxim marked part with Tektronix part number with a date code of the 50th week of 1994 which fits with the other Maxim parts showing up in the late 24xx series oscilloscopes which were made between 1989 and 1996.  Wikipedia says the date was 1994.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 17, 2014, 03:45:37 pm
I had not considered that but I am sure it was the case because of export restrictions.  They continued to make custom ICs for Tektronix as well for at least some time.  I have one Maxim marked part with Tektronix part number with a date code of the 50th week of 1994 which fits with the other Maxim parts showing up in the late 24xx series oscilloscopes which were made between 1989 and 1996.  Wikipedia says the date was 1994.
I thought all the 24xx scopes used CCDs for sampling, and had very mediocre ADCs. I think Tek made those CCDs, and they were pretty neat technology for the time.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 17, 2014, 09:38:42 pm
This fits with the earlier post marmad made about leakage.  I know I have run across that before but did not recognize it because the terminology was different. A sharper reconstruction filter would allow one to get closer to the Nyquist frequency.
No, this wouldn't help. Reconstruction filters are, of course, low pass filters designed to remove spurious high-frequency content (above Nyquist) in the sampled data. As stated in the physics post I made (and visible in the examples), leakage "...introduces spurious low frequency components in the sampled data." A look at the power spectra graph from that post confirms that the "power of the fundamental frequency" leaks into other lower frequencies.

As I noted before, there has been a continual development of adaptive sampling-frequency algorithms (to minimize the mismatch between input frequency and sampling rate) over the last few years to combat leakage (specifically for use with FFTs). There are a number of various papers (http://www.ijeit.com/vol%201/Issue%202/IJEIT1412201202_08.pdf) on it if you're interested.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 18, 2014, 12:34:03 am
I had not considered that but I am sure it was the case because of export restrictions.  They continued to make custom ICs for Tektronix as well for at least some time.  I have one Maxim marked part with Tektronix part number with a date code of the 50th week of 1994 which fits with the other Maxim parts showing up in the late 24xx series oscilloscopes which were made between 1989 and 1996.  Wikipedia says the date was 1994.

I thought all the 24xx scopes used CCDs for sampling, and had very mediocre ADCs. I think Tek made those CCDs, and they were pretty neat technology for the time.

I mean the analog 24xx series oscilloscopes.

On the digital 24xx series DSOs, I think the CCDs were what made them mediocre (but fast) rather than the slow ADCs.  For many years CCD based digitizers were many times faster than ADC/memory digitizers for a given price.

Another problem with the CCD digitizers is that they have terrible overload recovery; the CCDs may be saturated just like a photographic CCD suffers from blooming.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 18, 2014, 12:38:37 am
No, this wouldn't help. Reconstruction filters are, of course, low pass filters designed to remove spurious high-frequency content (above Nyquist) in the sampled data. As stated in the physics post I made (and visible in the examples), leakage "...introduces spurious low frequency components in the sampled data." A look at the power spectra graph from that post confirms that the "power of the fundamental frequency" leaks into other lower frequencies.
interested.

Now I am confused.  Are you referring to the analog antialiasing filter before the digitizer or the reconstruction filter after the digitizer?  If aliasing occurs then the later cannot do anything about it.

Quote
As I noted before, there has been a continual development of adaptive sampling-frequency algorithms (to minimize the mismatch between input frequency and sampling rate) over the last few years to combat leakage (specifically for use with FFTs). There are a number of various papers on it if you're interested.

I like the paper but I am surprised someone wrote one about this and I do not understand how it applies in this case.

Phase locking the sampling frequency to the source to remove spectral leakage in FFTs is obvious especially if you are only concerned about one frequency or multiple phase coherent frequencies.  Some GPSDOs do the same thing to remove jitter in the time domain or spectral leakage in the frequency domain when they have a DDS synthesized output.  DDS driven PLL multipliers may do this to avoid dual modulus PLL multiplication.

The idea also reminds me of synchronous demodulation and orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing.  In the later case, don't they phase lock the receiver to the transmitted carrier so the FFTs do not suffer from spectral leakage?

Don't some FFT based spectrum analyzers sweep their sample rate just a little bit to take leakage free measurements on multiple signals?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2014, 01:35:12 am
Now I am confused.  Are you referring to the analog antialiasing filter before the digitizer or the reconstruction filter after the digitizer?  If aliasing occurs then the later cannot do anything about it.

Both are low-pass filters. Leakage is a phenomenon that is not associated with aliasing (since it happens below Nyquist) and is not preventable by antialiasing or reconstruction filters.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 18, 2014, 03:01:03 am
Now I am confused.  Are you referring to the analog antialiasing filter before the digitizer or the reconstruction filter after the digitizer?  If aliasing occurs then the later cannot do anything about it.

Both are low-pass filters. Leakage is a phenomenon that is not associated with aliasing (since it happens below Nyquist) and is not preventable by antialiasing or reconstruction filters.
Yes, and we established that in the screenshots I made there were no frequency components above Nyquist, so aliasing was not occurring.
But when reconstructing after the digitizer the scope is unable to reliably reconstruct the real 120 MHz signal, as this is too near the Nyquist frequency.
note: what results is not really an AM signal, but a DSB signal (or AM with suppressed carrier, the sine does not ride the wave) -equivalent to the summation of the original "real" 120 MHz and the leaked "mirror" at 130 MHz. In the FFT's a few pages ago and attached here you can see that the amplitude of the mirror grows as the sampled frequency approaches Fnyquist. The result is shown as a double-sideband signal, not really an AM signal as there is no power in the central frequency of 125 MHz.
All this is after the digitizer and no aliasing occurring.
So as Marmad noticed this leakage is no issue till say Fsample/2.5 (my 100 MHz). There the leakage is so small is does not show any more.
As I understand it (now) up until Fnyquist you can reconstruct the frequency, but the amplitude information gets lost above Fsample/2.5. Just too few samples, and these samples "shift" along the wave resulting in the AM like waveform
Looking at the samples near Fnyquist themselves I am not even sure that a reliable reconstruction of the amplitude is even possible, and that it has nothing to do with errors in the reconstruction algorithms used by Rigol? At least that is what the documentation Marmad supplied is suggesting.
Interesting learning experience. This goes to show that one should be really really careful when interpreting displayed waveforms even long before FNyquist.  So the DS1000Z's are 100 MHz scopes? Yes, but beware..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 18, 2014, 03:49:08 am
If the source in my electronic design has a max. frequency of 100 MHz, then where can I expect to get the higher frequencies from? Interference, noise, higher harmonics?

Everybody is discussing here that the low-pass filter in the analog front-end of the Rigol scope is no good, as it is not a higher order filter and does not have a steep slope behind the cut-off frequency.

But who cares if the signals in the electronic design are below or at max. 100 MHz?
I have a hard time to understand where the higher frequencies can come from, and if there are any, that their impact is noticeable.

Would like to have a better understanding on unexpected higher frequencies that can show up, their origin (interference, noise, harmonics) and their impact?

Aren't the higher harmonics far enough away, even if the analog filter isn't perfect?
Or is that where the problem originates, that the higher harmonics are relatively close to the original signal, and are not cut-out by the simple filter in analog front-end of the Rigol DS1054Z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 18, 2014, 03:59:27 am
If the source in my electronic design has a max. frequency of 100 MHz, then where can I expect to get the higher frequencies from? Interference, noise, higher harmonics?

Everybody is discussing here that the low-pass filter in the analog front-end of the Rigol scope is no good, as it is not a higher order filter and does not have a steep slope behind the cut-off frequency.

But who cares if the signals in the electronic design are below or at max. 100 MHz?
I have a hard time to understand where the higher frequencies can come from, and if there are any, that their impact is noticeable.

Would like to have a better understanding on unexpected higher frequencies that can show up, their origin (interference, noise, harmonics) and their impact?

Aren't the higher harmonics far enough away, even if the analog filter isn't perfect?
Or is that where the problem originates, that the higher harmonics are relatively close to the original signal, and are not cut-out by the simple filter in analog front-end of the Rigol DS1054Z?
But how would you know / be sure that there are no higher (i.e. >= Fnyquist) in your signal? You certainly cannot check that with your scope.
Look at the output of my DG1032Z. Output at 24 Mhz and look at the spurious frequencies up to 100 MHz. Granted, in this case they are low enough not to be a problem, but I only know that because I have checked it with a spectrum analyzer. En more often than not You would have NO idea.
200 MHz into the 100 MHz DS100Z produced a 50 MHz signal of almost half the amplitude of the real 200 MHz due to aliasing. So, without being absolutely sure that no > Fnyqust signals are present you must allays distrust your scope.
Know what you are doing.
And a sharp roll-of filter (which the Rigol demonstrably does not have) is some safeguard that you are not seeing false-positives on your screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2014, 04:18:26 am
I like the paper but I am surprised someone wrote one about this and I do not understand how it applies in this case.

As I've stated a number of times over a few posts, leakage occurs because of a mismatch between the fundamental frequency and the sampling frequency. It's not really an issue when dealing with the time domain because no one attempts to sample and reconstruct that close to Nyquist (e.g. the original 44.1 kHz CD sample rate is ~fs/2.2) - but it's a regular problem in the frequency domain due to the nature of the FFT process. I only posted the link to the paper to illustrate the work going on to find solutions to the problem of leakage in that respect.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 18, 2014, 04:27:11 am
I want to come back to my question: if none of the signals in the electronic design, either the source, the intermediate signals in the signal path or the output signal has a frequency above the limit, then the higher frequencies can only come from interference, noise or higher harmonics.

Interference: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Noise: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Higher harmonics: Let's say we have a 100 MHz square wave. With a square wave at 100 MHz, the fundamental frequency is at 100 MHz, the 3rd harmonic is at 300 MHz, the 5th harmonic is at 500 Mhz. Doesn't the low-pass filter cut-out frequencies above 300 MHz? I believe it does!
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2014, 04:27:24 am
Everybody is discussing here that the low-pass filter in the analog front-end of the Rigol scope is no good...

No one said that. The low-pass antialias filter is absolutely fine for the maximum 1GSa/s rate - which is what manufacturers generally design their filters for (they can't design them for every sample rate since you will ALWAYS get lower sample rates sometimes when you're using slower time bases).

We've only been attempting to point out that, while most 4-channel DSOs have at least two ADC blocks (one devoted to each pair of 2 channels), the Rigol only has the single ADC block for all 4 channels, which will cause the sample rate to drop to 1/4 maximum when 3 or 4 channels are used - so you have to be aware of the limits of the filter when using 3 or 4 channels (even at the maximum sample rate) - just as you should be aware of the same thing when using any amount of channels at slower time bases (i.e. slower sample rates).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 05:19:57 pm
Higher harmonics: Let's say we have a 100 MHz square wave. With a square wave at 100 MHz, the fundamental frequency is at 100 MHz, the 3rd harmonic is at 300 MHz, the 5th harmonic is at 500 Mhz. Doesn't the low-pass filter cut-out frequencies above 300 MHz? I believe it does!

 :palm:

Yes, but it doesn't solve aliasing, which is what we're discussing.

As you approach the Nyquist frequency there's this thing called "aliasing" which you willfully seem to be ignoring.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 18, 2014, 06:03:42 pm
As you approach the Nyquist frequency there's this thing called "aliasing" which you willfully seem to be ignoring.
I think the point he was trying to make is that the first harmonic of a 100MHz square wave (300MHz) would be a fair bit beyond the DS1054Z's front-end roll-off and not cause much aliasing.

But I agree that in the grand scheme of things, such a specific case is of rather limited use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 08:03:21 pm
As you approach the Nyquist frequency there's this thing called "aliasing" which you willfully seem to be ignoring.
I think the point he was trying to make is that the first harmonic of a 100MHz square wave (300MHz) would be a fair bit beyond the DS1054Z's front-end roll-off and not cause much aliasing.

But I agree that in the grand scheme of things, such a specific case is of rather limited use.

I'm not sure what he's getting at any more. He seems to be trying to find some sort of mathematical imperfection in a 'scope when looking at 100MHz signals with 250MSa/s.

But ... of course it's imperfect. The Nyquist limit is a theoretical limit, not a practical one. It only applies under ideal conditions.

(And we're discussing a $40 'scope)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 18, 2014, 09:08:44 pm
I want to come back to my question: if none of the signals in the electronic design, either the source, the intermediate signals in the signal path or the output signal has a frequency above the limit...

And again, as pa3bca already pointed out, you can't know that, in general.

Quote
Interference: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.
Noise: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

We're discussing physics, not religion.  Thus what you believe or do not believe will have no impact whatsoever on what will occur.

Quote
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).

And you'd be wrong.  Again.  (https://s.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoticons/emo11.gif)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 09:46:56 pm
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).

And you'd be wrong.  Again.  (https://s.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoticons/emo11.gif)

Yep. A big part of "design" is ... (drum roll) ... "compromise"!

It's not a design failure at all to design a 'scope with the capabilities of the DS1000Z and sell it for $400 (in fact I'd call it a monstrous design success!)

If you want less compromise, ie. a 100Mhz 'scope with a very sharp cutoff filter for higher frequencies, then you have the option to pay a more money.

Or ... buy a 200MHz scope to look at your 100MHz signals - it's probably cheaper than paying for that filter.

Welcome to "reality". Please wipe your feet before entering.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 18, 2014, 10:18:16 pm
According to all your "uncertainties" about not knowing for sure if there is a higher frequency or not, that suggestion about buying a 200 MHz scope should not hold either to be consistent with your "uncertainty". Because your "uncertainty" can not guaranty either that there is not a higher frequency than 200 MHz in the signal path, although you are measuring 100 MHz signals.

So I believe it is not me who should enter "reality", but you guys who should leave "uncertainty" :)
There are no things such as ghosts caused by noise, interference or higher harmonics that cause unexpected higher frequencies in the signal path that are higher and close enough to the frequency of interest which you are trying to measure.

And when Nyquist says that the sampling frequency should be two times, I believe that 2,5 is already an extra margin. But the "uncertain" guys here want to have a whopping margin of 10x.
No wonder that you need to reach out in your pocket for a scope which is way over dimensioned for the kind of electronic toys which you are designing :)


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 11:06:05 pm
According to all your "uncertainties" about not knowing for sure if there is a higher frequency or not, that suggestion about buying a 200 MHz scope should not hold either to be consistent with your "uncertainty". Because your "uncertainty" can not guaranty either that there is not a higher frequency than 200 MHz in the signal path either, although you are measuring 100 MHz signals.

That's true, but:
a) I wasn't promising "certainty" with the 200MHz scope.
b) You now have 4 samples per wave and the cutoff filter is twice as sharp as before (relatively speaking). You're four times better off than you were with the 100Mhz scope.

If you want even less uncertainty than that (nb. I said "less uncertainty", not "certainty"), buy a 500MHz scope ... or whatever your budget allows.

This is what "reality" is.

Edit:

But the "uncertain" guys here want to have a whopping margin of 10x.

The general consensus is that 10x is an acceptable level of uncertainty, given the budgets and constraints people tend to work in.

The people working at the Large Hadron Collider (for example) probably don't think that's enough. They'll use even more.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2014, 11:09:18 pm
And when Nyquist says that the sampling frequency should be two times, I believe that 2,5 is already an extra margin. But the "uncertain" guys here want to have a whopping margin of 10x.
No wonder that you need to reach out in your pocket for a scope which is way over dimensioned for the kind of electronic toys which you are designing :)
You seem to be unwilling (or unable) to grasp the very basics of sampling - even though they have been laid out here time and time again. The Nyquist theorem is just that: a mathematical theorem. It is not real world usage - such as trying to get an accurate image of a waveform you're trying to look at. It doesn't take much imagination to see what kind of image a waveform sampled at fs/2 is going to deliver with linear interpolation:

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113766)

Yet even though the concept of 10x oversampling (which, BTW, was developed by DSO manufacturers) has been explained here more than once, you can't seem to fathom it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 18, 2014, 11:23:50 pm
Is 10x margin enough for sure, or only expected to be enough? Does that 10x margin still depend on having an acceptable higher order low-pass filter in the analog front-end of the scope?

Let's say I want to go for the 10x margin, and select the Rigol MSO2000 series instead.

Rigol DS2000 series:

If I go for the Rigol MSO2072A scope and patch it to a Rigol MSO2102A.
This scope has only 2 channels. So then I will have 1 GS/s per channel.
If I only expect to have 100 MHz signals in my application I would meet the 10x margin, and should not expect any problems. Is that correct?

So although the Rigol DS2000 series goes up to Rigol DS2302A, in reality the best configuration which can be used and meets 10x margin when using 2 channels at the same time, is the Rigol DS2101A. Is that correct?

If I use only 1 channel on the Rigol DS2000 series, the Rigol DS2202A makes sense, as I can then measure up to 200 MHz signal, with sample rate of 2MS/s (10x margin).

If I use 2 channels on the Rigol DS2000 series, only the Rigol DS2102A makes sense, as I can then measure up to 100 MHz signal (on both channels), with sample rate of 1MS/s (10x margin).

The Rigol DS2302A scope does not make sense, as even if I only use 1 channel, I can at max measure 200 MHZ signal, to meet the 10x margin.

Rigol DS1000Z series:

The Rigol DS1054Z can be patched to a Rigol DS1104Z scope.

The Rigol DS1104Z scope can act as a reliable 100 MHz scope when you only use 1 channel (to meet 10x margin - 1 GS/s).

The Rigol DS1104Z scope only acts as a reliable 50 MHz scope when you use 2 channels at the same time (to meet 10x margin - 500 MS/s).

The Rigol DS1104Z scope only acts as a reliable 25MHz scope when you use all 4 channels at the same time (to meet 25x margin - 250 MS/s).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: a1976888 on October 18, 2014, 11:38:03 pm
Hi,
Probably I'm OT but I wonder if it would be possible to group buy this oscilliscope to have a bigger discount for large quantities.
I think a lot of people here would like to buy one of these...
Any ideas?
Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 11:45:45 pm
Hi,
Probably I'm OT but I wonder if it would be possible to group buy this oscilliscope to have a bigger discount for large quantities.
I think a lot of people here would like to buy one of these...
Any ideas?
Thanks!

Sure, why don't you do it...?

Start by making some phone calls to Rigol to find out what you need to do to become a dealer, how many units you have to commit to, over what timespan, etc., to get the dealer pricing.

When you have that info, come back and we'll talk.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 11:47:26 pm
Is 10x margin enough for sure

 :palm:

No.

(I didn't bother reading the rest of your post because it's obvious what your problem is from the first six words).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2014, 11:56:00 pm
Is 10x margin enough for sure, or only expected to be enough? Does that 10x margin still depend on having an acceptable higher order low-pass filter in the analog front-end of the scope?

The 10x oversampling applies to linear interpolation - not sin(x)/x. If the DSO (or operator) is confident that no aliases are present (i.e. the sample rate is high enough to be beyond the transition band of the antialias filter - and if you don't know what transition band means, Google it) - the DSO should use sin(x)/x, and then 2.5 - 4x oversampling can be enough. If not, linear interpolation is/should be used. The Rigol UltraVision DSOs (as well as the Agilent X-series and many other DSOs) automatically turn on linear interpolation when the sample rate has dropped enough that it's obvious that aliasing could be present.

Really - the best thing is just to BUY A DSO and start playing around with it. You'll soon see with your own eyes why 10x oversampling is beneficial when using linear interpolation.

Quote
So although the Rigol DS2000 series goes up to Rigol DS2302A, in reality the best configuration which can be used and meets 10x margin when using 2 channels at the same time, is the Rigol DS2101A. Is that correct?

No, it depends on the characteristics of the antialias filter. From measurements that have been posted by owners, it appears that the DS2000A series attenuates frequencies above 500MHz (i.e. Nyquist for 2 channels @ 1GSa/s) enough for faithful sin(x)/x reconstruction up to the 200MHz version. The 300MHz version is a different story - and that's why I don't have that bandwidth enabled on my DS2000.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 19, 2014, 12:05:57 am
You seem to be unwilling (or unable) to grasp the very basics of sampling - even though they have been laid out here time and time again. The Nyquist theorem is just that: a mathematical theorem. It is not real world usage - such as trying to get an accurate image of a waveform you're trying to look at. It doesn't take much imagination to see what kind of image a waveform sampled at fs/2 is going to deliver with linear interpolation:
I think its you who are unable to grasp the basics of sampling. Your simplistic join the dots scheme massively expands the bandwidth of the signal. If you put those triangles through a bandpass filter, so remove all the out of band crud you just created, you'll get back to something similar to the original signal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 19, 2014, 12:15:44 am
Your simplistic join the dots scheme...

Mine? It's just a stock Nyquist image lifted from the internet showing a sine wave sampled at 2f.

Quote
If you put those triangles through a bandpass filter, so remove all the out of band crud you just created, you'll get back to something similar to the original signal.

Oh please.. do go on! School me on how DSOs are faithfully reproducing waveforms right up to the Nyquist frequency.  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 19, 2014, 12:22:51 am
...2.5 - 4x oversampling can be enough.

This only applies to signal reconstruction (ie. display), not to the actual sampling process.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 19, 2014, 12:34:55 am
...2.5 - 4x oversampling can be enough.

This only applies to signal reconstruction (ie. display), not to the actual sampling process.

No, it applies to the sampling rate. It's always a trade-off between the anti-alias filter and the sampling rate. From previously linked Agilent document:

"Figure 8 clearly shows that the sin(x)/x reconstruction filter perfectly reconstructs the waveform from the samples taken at a rate 2.5 times faster than the highest frequency content of the waveform."

To prevent aliasing, two fundamental items can be addressed in a digitizing system:
1) An anti-alias filter can be designed to reject all high-frequency content above fN.
2) The sample rate can be increased to an arbitrarily high frequency such that fN is above the highest significant frequency component of the signal being digitized."

In some systems, one might imagine a case where increased sample rate is inexpensive, compared to a higher-order anti-alias filter. In this case, it may be more practical to increase the sample rate to compensate for the slow roll-off of the anti-alias filter, instead of designing a more complex filter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 19, 2014, 12:51:28 am
Your simplistic join the dots scheme...

Mine? It's just a stock Nyquist image lifted from the internet showing a sine wave sampled at 2f.
There are plenty of idiotic pictures on the web. You chose to quote this one to illustrate something. Maybe you didn't adequately explain what that something was.

Quote
If you put those triangles through a bandpass filter, so remove all the out of band crud you just created, you'll get back to something similar to the original signal.

Oh please.. do go on! School me on how DSOs are faithfully reproducing waveforms right up to the Nyquist frequency.  :-DD
They don't faithfully display right up to Shannon, for reasons many people have explained. However the practical limitations of not being able to impose a brick wall filter without nasty phase effects don't make linear interpolation, with its consequent massive increase in bandwidth, any more meaningful. After digitising a signal you don't get back to the original signal just  by feeding it through a DAC. You have to filter back to the Shannon bandwidth. If your DAC is a ZOH type, you also need to compensate for its funky frequency response. If you are to display the digitised signal in any meaningful form, you need to do the same kind of filtering digitally.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 19, 2014, 12:59:12 am
There are plenty of idiotic pictures on the web. You chose to quote this one to illustrate something. Maybe you didn't adequately explain what that something was.

Maybe you didn't adequately follow the conversation that has been taking place over several pages of this thread.

Quote
They don't faithfully display right up to Shannon, for reasons many people have explained.

Yes, me being one those people that have been attempting to explain it to the person I was responding to.

Quote
However the practical limitations of not being able to impose a brick wall filter without nasty phase effects don't make linear interpolation, with its consequent massive increase in bandwidth, any more meaningful.

Wow, I really don't have the energy to go through this again. Congratulations, you win!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 19, 2014, 01:38:05 am

Wow, I really don't have the energy to go through this again. Congratulations, you win!
Does this mean we stop talking about it, and start using our scope ?  :)
Oh and Pascal, when do you buy an Rigol scope ?????
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 19, 2014, 01:51:33 am
Wow, I really don't have the energy to go through this again. Congratulations, you win!
Does this mean we stop talking about it, and start using our scope ?  :)

Yes. I say we leave him in his little world of doubt. The only hope is that he buys a 'scope and sees it for himself.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 19, 2014, 10:22:42 am
Does this mean we stop talking about it, and start using our scope ?  :)

Yes.... and pray we don't have another Al Pacino-Godfather 3-"Just when I thought..." moment   ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xnaron on October 19, 2014, 10:24:26 am
Apologies if this has been pointed out before...

The resistor jumper configuration for "Hardware Version" is different on DS1054Z compared to DS1104Z.

I was watching Dave's DS1054Z teardown and I took note of the part where he mentioned the resistor configuration blocks.  I started thinking about whether the resistor jumpers would be the same on the DS1104Z.  I searched youtube and found a DS1104Z teardown video.  I watched the video and found a spot where the resistor jumpers were shown.  I took a screenshot of them.  I also took a screenshot of the jumpers from Dave's Flickr teardown.  I am including them in this post.  If you examine the photos you can see there is one resistor jumper in a different place.  Anyone have any info on how these resistor jumpers effect functionality?

This is the DS1104Z teardown video I took the screenshot from.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c)

Here is the link to Daves teardown image on Flickr I cropped my image from https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/15354535170/in/set-72157646442125864/lightbox/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/15354535170/in/set-72157646442125864/lightbox/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tom66 on October 19, 2014, 10:39:55 am
This argument over sampling rates and bandwidth is really quite silly.

What Rigol have done is given people a solid and low cost 4 channel digital scope with good sampling rate and intensity graded display. This thing absolutely destroys the competition in features and performance. What other scope offers 24Mpt in the same price range? The only other one I can think of is the DS2000... Even Tek's high end scopes only offer 10Mpt... Agilent's 2000X is 4Mpt/4ch...
 
I've owned a DS1074Z for about 3 months now. How many times have I used the full bandwidth on all four channels? Never. I can't even think of an application where I would do so.

The primary applications for 4 channels are:
 - SPI+result analysis (DAC etc)
 - I2C+result analysis (DAC etc)
 - 3ph motor drives (max 1MHz)

.... that is, when you can only afford a $400 scope... Of course you can analyse DDR buses but the DS1xxxZ probably isn't for you then....

You volt-nuts may say the scope only has real 25MHz bandwidth on four channels. If that really bothers you, don't buy it. Or turn on the 20MHz filter. (It'd be really nice if Rigol let users enable the 50 and 70MHz filters too, for the 100MHz scopes. I can hope.)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 19, 2014, 11:02:57 am
This argument over sampling rates and bandwidth is really quite silly....

You volt-nuts may say the scope only has real 25MHz bandwidth on four channels. If that really bothers you, don't buy it. Or turn on the 20MHz filter. (It'd be really nice if Rigol let users enable the 50 and 70MHz filters too, for the 100MHz scopes. I can hope.)

I'm not sure it's actually been an argument (although perhaps there's been 1 or 2 people fighting against the idea). Personally, I talked about it just so prospective owners would understand the limitations - but I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think the DSO is a great bargain - and I'd be pleased as punch if my DS2000 grew a couple of extra channels, even if they just ran at 1/4 the maximum sample rate - because as you say, there are plenty of applications where that works just fine.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 19, 2014, 11:54:53 am
Apologies if this has been pointed out before...

The resistor jumper configuration for "Hardware Version" is different on DS1054Z compared to DS1104Z.
That number does not necessarily mean anything: many months have gone by since the DS1104Z launched so it is highly probable that Rigol has tweaked the PCB or BoM since then and DS1104Z manufactured more recently might be revision 01 as well.

You would need to find someone who cracked open a post-DS1054Z DS1104Z to confirm that the 01 revision is specific to the DS1054Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 19, 2014, 03:46:09 pm
Oh and Pascal, when do you buy an Rigol scope ?????

Now there's an interesting question!  Let's look back at the last year...

January 01, 2014, 02:40:30 PM »
I am going to buy a digital oscilloscope, but am doubting between the DS1074Z (4 channels) or the DS2072 (2 channels).

January 01, 2014, 05:38:35 PM »
I am interested in DS2072A but want to wait until the hack is confirmed with new FW and all options enabled, including 300MHz and CAN decoding.

January 02, 2014, 04:20:22 PM »
is the DS2072A hackable to 300 MHz with all options or not?
How long does it typically take to come up with a new hack? =) I need to buy my scope latest next week :)

January 21, 2014, 09:49:04 AM »
Are there any rumours or confirmations about upcoming DS2000 series with built-in LA?
Will the LA have 8 channels or 16 channels? When is it expected? Details on launch date and model numbers? Pictures?

~~ Purchase decisions got deferred, more questions were asked, the LA option awaited.  Then he focused on the MSO1074z (after flirting for a bit with the Siglent SDS2000).

June 30, 2014, 03:56:18 AM »
I am considering to buy a new scope now, and am thinking about MSO1074Z, as it seems to have everything I need.  4 Channels is very handy.

July 11, 2014, 07:57:32 AM »
Anybody with more feedback about the MSO2072A or the MSO1074Z?
If you are doing digital design 2 analog channels are more than enough given that you have 16 digital channels.
So that makes me conclude to go for the MSO2072A. Now just need more feedback on it

August 04, 2014, 09:21:00 AM »
Myself am going to order very soon an MSO1074Z, or an MSO2072A. Still doubting about which one is the best, but most likely it will be the MSO1074Z, as 100 MHz (after possible upgrade) would be enough for my current applications.  But I really want confirmation that feature wise both scopes are as good.

August 07, 2014, 12:33:46 PM »
From that perspective I think I have finally made up my mind. It is simply going to be a MSO2072A :)

~~ Finally!   :phew:  But not so fast...

August 09, 2014, 04:49:16 PM »
It actually seems that intensity grading is better on 1074Z series than on 2000A series.
Also the screen contrast is better on the cheaper 1074Z series.
Now I am really confused. Although the screen is smaller on the 1074Z series, the screen quality is better than the 2000A series.
Honestly I am clueless again, and still can not decide then on MSO1074Z or MSO2072A, after seeing this video =)

~~ Marmad finally inquired, 2 months ago:  "seriously, man, you've been posting these same questions for over 7 months now... perhaps it's time to bite the bullet and buy a DSO?"

August 13, 2014, 05:43:40 AM »
Yes, I agree. I will buy the scope in September =)   [MSO2000, after debating viewing angles vs. 1000z]

~~ But hold on a minute...

September 10, 2014, 05:21:47 AM »
Considering to buy MSO1074Z or MSO2072A.  Most likely I will go for MSO2072A.

October 09, 2014, 10:51:54 AM »
I haven't bought the scope yet, as I was waiting on some videos for the LA functionality in the MSO series.  But scope will be ordered soon (other priorities now).

~~

My personal suspicion is he won't ever order any DSO.  Because: a) he wants it to be perfect, and the "best" in every possible way, b) he wants it to be trivially easy to hack, c) he wants guarantees that it will have no limitations that he might some day run into, and the major #1 reason...  (drum roll please)

d) he really has no need for a DSO!   >:D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 19, 2014, 05:41:27 pm
Oh and Pascal, when do you buy an Rigol scope ?????

Now there's an interesting question!  Let's look back at the last year...

January 01, 2014, 02:40:30 PM »
I am going to buy a digital oscilloscope, but am doubting between the DS1074Z (4 channels) or the DS2072 (2 channels).

January 01, 2014, 05:38:35 PM »
I am interested in DS2072A but want to wait until the hack is confirmed with new FW and all options enabled, including 300MHz and CAN decoding.

January 02, 2014, 04:20:22 PM »
is the DS2072A hackable to 300 MHz with all options or not?
How long does it typically take to come up with a new hack? =) I need to buy my scope latest next week :)

January 21, 2014, 09:49:04 AM »
Are there any rumours or confirmations about upcoming DS2000 series with built-in LA?
Will the LA have 8 channels or 16 channels? When is it expected? Details on launch date and model numbers? Pictures?

~~ Purchase decisions got deferred, more questions were asked, the LA option awaited.  Then he focused on the MSO1074z (after flirting for a bit with the Siglent SDS2000).

June 30, 2014, 03:56:18 AM »
I am considering to buy a new scope now, and am thinking about MSO1074Z, as it seems to have everything I need.  4 Channels is very handy.

July 11, 2014, 07:57:32 AM »
Anybody with more feedback about the MSO2072A or the MSO1074Z?
If you are doing digital design 2 analog channels are more than enough given that you have 16 digital channels.
So that makes me conclude to go for the MSO2072A. Now just need more feedback on it

August 04, 2014, 09:21:00 AM »
Myself am going to order very soon an MSO1074Z, or an MSO2072A. Still doubting about which one is the best, but most likely it will be the MSO1074Z, as 100 MHz (after possible upgrade) would be enough for my current applications.  But I really want confirmation that feature wise both scopes are as good.

August 07, 2014, 12:33:46 PM »
From that perspective I think I have finally made up my mind. It is simply going to be a MSO2072A :)

~~ Finally!   :phew:  But not so fast...

August 09, 2014, 04:49:16 PM »
It actually seems that intensity grading is better on 1074Z series than on 2000A series.
Also the screen contrast is better on the cheaper 1074Z series.
Now I am really confused. Although the screen is smaller on the 1074Z series, the screen quality is better than the 2000A series.
Honestly I am clueless again, and still can not decide then on MSO1074Z or MSO2072A, after seeing this video =)

~~ Marmad finally inquired, 2 months ago:  "seriously, man, you've been posting these same questions for over 7 months now... perhaps it's time to bite the bullet and buy a DSO?"

August 13, 2014, 05:43:40 AM »
Yes, I agree. I will buy the scope in September =)   [MSO2000, after debating viewing angles vs. 1000z]

~~ But hold on a minute...

September 10, 2014, 05:21:47 AM »
Considering to buy MSO1074Z or MSO2072A.  Most likely I will go for MSO2072A.

October 09, 2014, 10:51:54 AM »
I haven't bought the scope yet, as I was waiting on some videos for the LA functionality in the MSO series.  But scope will be ordered soon (other priorities now).

~~

My personal suspicion is he won't ever order any DSO.  Because: a) he wants it to be perfect, and the "best" in every possible way, b) he wants it to be trivially easy to hack, c) he wants guarantees that it will have no limitations that he might some day run into, and the major #1 reason...  (drum roll please)

d) he really has no need for a DSO!   >:D
For sure he keeps us busy  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 19, 2014, 11:07:06 pm
Good summary! Yes, keeps everybody busy!
I will come with the big announcement at the right time :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 19, 2014, 11:46:11 pm
Good summary! Yes, keeps everybody busy!
I will come with the big announcement at the right time :)
Pascal,

Er is alleen maar tijd, geen "goede" tijd. Maak de beslissing en word blij :)

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 20, 2014, 12:54:57 am
Now I am confused.  Are you referring to the analog antialiasing filter before the digitizer or the reconstruction filter after the digitizer?  If aliasing occurs then the later cannot do anything about it.

Both are low-pass filters. Leakage is a phenomenon that is not associated with aliasing (since it happens below Nyquist) and is not preventable by antialiasing or reconstruction filters.

Yes, and we established that in the screenshots I made there were no frequency components above Nyquist, so aliasing was not occurring.

This is the same screenshot of the 120 MHz signal where I counted wrong and you made the same counting mistake:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg532229/#msg532229 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg532229/#msg532229)

The signal is a 120 MHz sine wave.  The image above the 125 MHz Nyquist frequency is at 130 MHz.  After reconstruction with a low pass filter, any remaining part of the 130 MHz image should result in constructive and destructive interference with a beat frequency of 10 MHz which is what the blue line I have added shows.

This post covers the same problem and mentions the Agilent MSO6034 manual which includes a statement about their reconstruction filter having a bandwidth of half the Nyquist frequency:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin%28x%29x-interpolation/msg2545/#msg2545 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin%28x%29x-interpolation/msg2545/#msg2545)

Quote
note: what results is not really an AM signal, but a DSB signal (or AM with suppressed carrier, the sine does not ride the wave) -equivalent to the summation of the original "real" 120 MHz and the leaked "mirror" at 130 MHz. In the FFT's a few pages ago and attached here you can see that the amplitude of the mirror grows as the sampled frequency approaches Fnyquist. The result is shown as a double-sideband signal, not really an AM signal as there is no power in the central frequency of 125 MHz.

And the higher sideband grows stronger as Nyquist is approached because the reconstruction filter has lower attenuation.  The waveform shown in the image does not completely cancel because the 130 MHz image is already smaller than the 120 MHz signal.  With an input of 124.995 MHz, the peak to trough frequency would be 10 kHz and cancellation would be almost complete.

Quote
All this is after the digitizer and no aliasing occurring.
So as Marmad noticed this leakage is no issue till say Fsample/2.5 (my 100 MHz). There the leakage is so small is does not show any more.

The leakage is still there.  If you look really carefully at the lower frequency examples, you can see the amplitude still varying but it happens at a higher frequency because the signal and image are further apart.

Quote
As I understand it (now) up until Fnyquist you can reconstruct the frequency, but the amplitude information gets lost above Fsample/2.5. Just too few samples, and these samples "shift" along the wave resulting in the AM like waveform
Looking at the samples near Fnyquist themselves I am not even sure that a reliable reconstruction of the amplitude is even possible, and that it has nothing to do with errors in the reconstruction algorithms used by Rigol? At least that is what the documentation Marmad supplied is suggesting.
Interesting learning experience. This goes to show that one should be really really careful when interpreting displayed waveforms even long before FNyquist.  So the DS1000Z's are 100 MHz scopes? Yes, but beware..

If the filter was long enough, then the 130 MHz image would have been removed.  The filter however is shorter than this because of both performance reasons and because the filter length subtracts from the usable record length at the ends where a full set of samples is not available to calculate it.

This post was late not because I had given up but because the EEVBlog forum was returning database errors for me most of yesterday. :)  I am not giving up because I want to understand exactly what is going on here.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 20, 2014, 02:17:57 am
This post covers the same problem and mentions the Agilent MSO6034 manual which includes a statement about their reconstruction filter having a bandwidth of half the Nyquist frequency:

No, this doesn't cover the same problem; this is you attempting to connect this with a problem the DS1000E had - just as you tried to do before earlier in this thread. Rf-loop and jahonen were discussing the problem of the sin(x)/x interpolation on the DS1000E not matching the actual sample points. That is not the issue at all here - the interpolation matches the sample points just fine (see images).

Quote
The leakage is still there.  If you look really carefully at the lower frequency examples, you can see the amplitude still varying but it happens at a higher frequency because the signal and image are further apart.

Huh? No it doesn't. I just examined his 100MHz image in Photoshop and the amplitude only varies +/- 1 pixel - certainly within the DSO's margin of error, especially since the display memory is 2x scaled from the intensity buffer .

Quote
If the filter was long enough, then the 130 MHz image would have been removed.  The filter however is shorter than this because of both performance reasons and because the filter length subtracts from the usable record length at the ends where a full set of samples is not available to calculate it.

By long enough, do you mean infinitely or impossibly longer? If not, please produce a SINGLE real-world example of a DSO sampling a frequency between fs/2.1 and fs/2.05 and reconstructing the waveform correctly. I would love to see it.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 20, 2014, 05:13:02 am
This post covers the same problem and mentions the Agilent MSO6034 manual which includes a statement about their reconstruction filter having a bandwidth of half the Nyquist frequency:

No, this doesn't cover the same problem; this is you attempting to connect this with a problem the DS1000E had - just as you tried to do before earlier in this thread. Rf-loop and jahonen were discussing the problem of the sin(x)/x interpolation on the DS1000E not matching the actual sample points. That is not the issue at all here - the interpolation matches the sample points just fine (see images).

Not having the sin(x)/x reconstruction match the sample points is a different problem.  It just means that the filter did not use enough terms or used windowing or it was not a sin(x)/x filter which amounts to the same thing.  Rigol might have used a more aggressive filter to prevent the issue being discussed and raise the real time bandwidth in the way Agilent used the term even though it would mean that the actual sample points would not be on the reconstructed waveform.

Quote
Quote
The leakage is still there.  If you look really carefully at the lower frequency examples, you can see the amplitude still varying but it happens at a higher frequency because the signal and image are further apart.

Huh? No it doesn't. I just examined his 100MHz image in Photoshop and the amplitude only varies +/- 1 pixel - certainly within the DSO's margin of error, especially since the display memory is 2x scaled from the intensity buffer .

It looks like a difference to me because it repeats over the entire displayed waveform and I was specifically looking for it.  At some point in the past, I would have missed or dismissed it.

The amount of leakage is continuous with the input frequency.  At some frequency it will be low enough not to be seen visually but it will still be present which an FFT will show.  At a lower frequency yet it will become indistinguishable from noise.  Pick the right higher frequency and it will be +/- 2 pixels.  Pick a higher one yet and it will be +/- 3 pixels. 

Quote
Quote
If the filter was long enough, then the 130 MHz image would have been removed.  The filter however is shorter than this because of both performance reasons and because the filter length subtracts from the usable record length at the ends where a full set of samples is not available to calculate it.

By long enough, do you mean infinitely or impossibly longer? If not, please produce a SINGLE real-world example of a DSO sampling a frequency between fs/2.1 and fs/2.05 and reconstructing the waveform correctly. I would love to see it.  :)

I mean significantly longer then the filter Rigol is using now and gave the reasons why it is not longer.  I do not expect the Rigol to have perfect sin(x)/x reconstruction up to Nyquist.  I have yet to see a DSO which does.  It might be nice though to get an idea of the actual real time bandwidth available before distortion from the image becomes significant.  It looks like they did barely meet their 100 MHz specification at a sample rate of 250 MS/s.

I cannot give an example of a DSO doing this for the reasons discussed above but textbooks give graphic examples of ideal sin(x)/x reconstruction all the time when they discuss representing all input frequencies up to but not including the Nyquist frequency.  How else could a sampled data stream represent all frequencies up to but not included the Nyquist frequency accurately otherwise?

DSOs with longer and sharper reconstruction filters will display more accurate results up to their Nyquist frequency.  If a sin(x)/x filter is used, then the reconstructed waveform will also pass through the actual sample points which is a desirable feature.

The FFT of the 120 MHz input that pa3bca posted is magnified so any low frequency aliasing is left out but look carefully at the 120 MHz and 130 MHz signals.  The later one is about one minor division less or 4 dB.  If that FFT is of the reconstructed signal (otherwise how could it display the 130 MHz sine wave?), then that represents the attenuation difference of Rigol's reconstruction filter over that 10 MHz span.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 20, 2014, 05:40:09 am
At a lower frequency yet it will become indistinguishable from noise.  Pick the right higher frequency and it will be +/- 2 pixels.  Pick a higher one yet and it will be +/- 3 pixels.

Of course. But I think it's indistinguishable from noise in the 100MHz image - and I don't think a low-cost DSO has to do any better than fs/2.5 using sin(x)/x.

Quote
I cannot give an example of a DSO doing this for the reasons discussed above but textbooks give graphic examples of ideal sin(x)/x reconstruction all the time when they discuss representing all input frequencies up to but not including the Nyquist frequency.  How else could a sampled data stream represent all frequencies up to but not included the Nyquist frequency accurately otherwise?

Yes, textbooks - but who does this in reality? Who is capturing and reproducing frequencies right up to Nyquist? Everybody oversamples. And every paper on sin(x)/x interpolation on DSOs that I've read - although they might mention that it's mathematically possible to represent all frequencies up to Nyquist - ALWAYS mention fs/2.5, fs/3 or fs/4 as the minimum that should be used.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 20, 2014, 06:46:16 am
This is the same screenshot of the 120 MHz signal where I counted wrong and you made the same counting mistake:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg532229/#msg532229 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg532229/#msg532229)

The signal is a 120 MHz sine wave.  The image above the 125 MHz Nyquist frequency is at 130 MHz.  After reconstruction with a low pass filter, any remaining part of the 130 MHz image should result in constructive and destructive interference with a beat frequency of 10 MHz which is what the blue line I have added shows.
Oops. My bad. The 10 MHz is indeed your blue line riding the wavecrests, not my (5 MHz) red line. Was not paying attention (and counting) as I was trying to reconcile the two signals (120 and 130) into a DSB waveform.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 20, 2014, 06:56:45 am
The amount of leakage is continuous with the input frequency.  At some frequency it will be low enough not to be seen visually but it will still be present which an FFT will show.  At a lower frequency yet it will become indistinguishable from noise.  Pick the right higher frequency and it will be +/- 2 pixels.  Pick a higher one yet and it will be +/- 3 pixels. 
Yes, the closer the frequency gets to Fnyquist the larger the mirror becomes. (as leakage increases)
And it looks like 100 MHz (at 250 MSa/s) is just at the limit, any higher and it becomes visible. This is in accordance with the Fs/2.5 that Marmad has mentioned as a an absolute maximum that will work in practice.

Quote
If the filter was long enough, then the 130 MHz image would have been removed.  The filter however is shorter than this because of both performance reasons and because the filter length subtracts from the usable record length at the ends where a full set of samples is not available to calculate it.
Hm I think I can see how with (much) longer sampling you might get rid of the mirror (leaked) frequency, as the sampling points "move" over the fundamental. but, but... wouldn't that be ETS?? sounds like cheating?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 20, 2014, 07:08:11 am
I want to come back to my question: if none of the signals in the electronic design, either the source, the intermediate signals in the signal path or the output signal has a frequency above the limit, then the higher frequencies can only come from interference, noise or higher harmonics.

Interference: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Noise: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Higher harmonics: Let's say we have a 100 MHz square wave. With a square wave at 100 MHz, the fundamental frequency is at 100 MHz, the 3rd harmonic is at 300 MHz, the 5th harmonic is at 500 Mhz. Doesn't the low-pass filter cut-out frequencies above 300 MHz? I believe it does!
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).
You really don't have a clue, do you? Or are you deliberately trolling this forum?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 20, 2014, 08:04:55 am
I want to come back to my question: if none of the signals in the electronic design, either the source, the intermediate signals in the signal path or the output signal has a frequency above the limit, then the higher frequencies can only come from interference, noise or higher harmonics.

Interference: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Noise: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Higher harmonics: Let's say we have a 100 MHz square wave. With a square wave at 100 MHz, the fundamental frequency is at 100 MHz, the 3rd harmonic is at 300 MHz, the 5th harmonic is at 500 Mhz. Doesn't the low-pass filter cut-out frequencies above 300 MHz? I believe it does!
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).
You really don't have a clue, do you? Or are you deliberately trolling this forum?

And let's put it to the test.
Your perfect square wave (where can you buy these btw?) has a third harmonic with 1/3 of the amplitude of the fundamental.
So.
First a measurement with 0dBm out of the generator to the scope (250 MSa/s). 100 MHz 0 dBm png attachment.
Then a 300 MHz 0 dBm to the scope (to check the attenuation at 300 MHz):       300 MHz 0 dBm png attachment.
You see that:
- due to aliasing the scope "sees" a 50 MHz signal
- this signal is down only 20 log (237/120) = 5.9 dB
The 3rd harmonic of a perfect square is 1/3 of the amplitude of the fundamental so the actual amplitude that the scope will show is 120/3 = 40 mV.
So the scope will show a waveform consisting of a 237 mV 100 MHz signal + a 40 mV 50 MHz signal.

To show you how that looks I added 237 mV 10 MHz and a 40 mV 5 MHz signal together (I can only generate up to 30 MHz with my siggen), and look what the waveform is:
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113894)
There is your perfect square wave @ 100 MHz....
Higher harmonics will also show, but probably not significant:
- the 5th harmonic is at 500 MHz.. being 2xFs the amplitude here is zero (checked it).
- 7th harmonic is way down, not relevant any more.


This scope is really marvelous, especially at this price point. No competition. But you must understand aliasing and leakage. Know what you're doing.
Oh, and if you are not sure about aliasing, just use only one channel. With 1 GSa/s aliasing is probably not a problem. And switching between 1 GSa/s en 250 MSa/s will give you an indication if aliasing is an issue. If the waveform changes drastically, it is! (at 250 MSa/s).




Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on October 20, 2014, 10:38:05 am
The resistor jumper configuration for "Hardware Version" is different on DS1054Z compared to DS1104Z.

Well spotted. The one of the right is certainly set to 1 instead of 0.
I'd try it on my mine, but it's only a loaner, so I don't think it's appropriate to do so.
Can anyone with a 1054Z change the jumper and see what happens?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on October 20, 2014, 10:41:59 am
That number does not necessarily mean anything: many months have gone by since the DS1104Z launched so it is highly probable that Rigol has tweaked the PCB or BoM since then and DS1104Z manufactured more recently might be revision 01 as well.

Yes, you could be right, this could just be the revision of the board, which is shown in the firmware. So they might be using the jumpers to hard set this version. Jumpers cost practically nothing to install after all. My board is Rev 1.01
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 20, 2014, 05:14:59 pm
Good summary! Yes, keeps everybody busy!
I will come with the big announcement at the right time :)


And when you do, I expect you'll really start asking questions in earnest!  ;)  And keep us even busier.

One good outcome of your deferring a decision was the arrival of the MSO2000 (not available when you started your quest for the Holy Grail), which pretty nicely balances out the 2-channel loss from the 1000Z to the 2000.  For someone who (may) want to do embedded systems work at some point, it's a very nice combination.

And if you wait long enough, Siglent may improve the firmware implementation on the SDS2000 to the point where you could get 4 analog channels AND 8 digital channels... for a price in the same ballpark as the MSO2000.  Though the hackability of the Rigols does give them a decided advantage.

EDIT:  besides, when I prepared that retrospective, I thought we needed a break from the Hess/Marmad bout, that was in the 14th round.   :box:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2014, 11:42:00 am
Is the DS1000U series something Rigol only sell in China? I don't see reference to these models on other country's web sites.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on October 21, 2014, 12:41:29 pm
Good summary! Yes, keeps everybody busy!
I will come with the big announcement at the right time :)


And when you do, I expect you'll really start asking questions in earnest!  ;)  And keep us even busier.

One good outcome of your deferring a decision was the arrival of the MSO2000 (not available when you started your quest for the Holy Grail), which pretty nicely balances out the 2-channel loss from the 1000Z to the 2000.  For someone who (may) want to do embedded systems work at some point, it's a very nice combination.

And if you wait long enough, Siglent may improve the firmware implementation on the SDS2000 to the point where you could get 4 analog channels AND 8 digital channels... for a price in the same ballpark as the MSO2000.  Though the hackability of the Rigols does give them a decided advantage.

EDIT:  besides, when I prepared that retrospective, I thought we needed a break from the Hess/Marmad bout, that was in the 14th round.   :box:
LOL
Sorry I have no real update re Siglent SDS2000 expected firmware version apart from it is due this month, then the bell will ring for the next bout.  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 21, 2014, 12:58:46 pm
Is the DS1000U series something Rigol only sell in China? I don't see reference to these models on other country's web sites.
Like the DG1022U variant of Rigol's DG1022 function generator it seems to be primarily intended for domestic markets, although it (there appears to be only one model, the DS1072U) is available in Western countries from various Chinese shippers, such as this one (http://www.rigoloscilloscope.co.uk/wholesale/RIGOL-DS1072U-70Mhz-Oscilloscope-FFT-500MSa-s-3-yrs-warranty-air-shipping-track-656.html), and there is an English manual (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fus.rigol.com%2Fdownload%2FOversea%2FDS%2FUser_guide%2FDS1000U_UserGuide_EN.pdf&ei=_btFVNi1EoHSaJD7gIAP&usg=AFQjCNHgAKPL6MzBuo4D6bDUvHUPrXwkfg&bvm=bv.77880786,d.ZWU) on Rigol's US website.

It's hard to imagine why anyone would want one, though - it only has half the sample rate and half the memory of the now rather obsolete DS1000E series scopes, and costs about the same.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dentaku on October 21, 2014, 01:37:29 pm
OK, I'm going to ask a dumb question...
Is a DS1054Z exactly the same as a DS1074Z and DS1104Z on the inside?
Once it's hacked you can unlock exactly the same features and it gives you the same performance?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2014, 02:09:29 pm
Is the DS1000U series something Rigol only sell in China? I don't see reference to these models on other country's web sites.
Like the DG1022U variant of Rigol's DG1022 function generator it seems to be primarily intended for domestic markets, although it (there appears to be only one model, the DS1072U) is available in Western countries from various Chinese shippers, such as this one (http://www.rigoloscilloscope.co.uk/wholesale/RIGOL-DS1072U-70Mhz-Oscilloscope-FFT-500MSa-s-3-yrs-warranty-air-shipping-track-656.html), and there is an English manual (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fus.rigol.com%2Fdownload%2FOversea%2FDS%2FUser_guide%2FDS1000U_UserGuide_EN.pdf&ei=_btFVNi1EoHSaJD7gIAP&usg=AFQjCNHgAKPL6MzBuo4D6bDUvHUPrXwkfg&bvm=bv.77880786,d.ZWU) on Rigol's US website.

It's hard to imagine why anyone would want one, though - it only has half the sample rate and half the memory of the now rather obsolete DS1000E series scopes, and costs about the same.
The DS1102U is 100MHz, 1Gs/s, 16k samples of storage and its list price is CNY1580 (US$257). It looks like the ADC is a lower spec (or maybe there's a lower timing control spec) than the E series, as its repeat capture effective sampling rate is 10Gs/s, while the E series claims 25Gs/s. Most things about the U series seem essentially the same as the E series. I suspect, from some promotional stuff they are doing, that this might be their entry model going forward.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thisguy81 on October 21, 2014, 06:44:21 pm
Hi guys,
So everyone is praising this new rigol, saying its a great value for 399.
Thats great but where do you get ?
where can i buy it, for that price, from a seller with international shipping ?
It will be very helpful if one will write where he got it from, and how much was the shipping.
Tried ebay but only one seller from italy for 530$ and no international shipping. than there is the H.K seller for the 1074 but thats 579+100 for shipping.
Any help will be appriciated ????
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aXion on October 21, 2014, 07:07:22 pm
Thats great but where do you get ?

You could try www.batronix.com (http://www.batronix.com), The shipping costs to Israel would be €54.45 without VAT.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Nemesis on October 21, 2014, 07:59:03 pm
Hi,

Going over this thread, I think this scope would be a good starting point for me.
Could someone please pm me the coupon code for Tequipment?

Thanks,
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JJalling on October 21, 2014, 08:50:59 pm
Thats great but where do you get ?

Hi,

I bought mine from Silcon Electroincs (www.silicon.cz (http://www.silcon.cz) , EEVblog user Drieg). 294€ ex. VAT with free shipping within EU.
Excellent service, and very fast shipping - highly recommended.

BR Jonas

Edit: Link fix
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 21, 2014, 10:06:58 pm
Thats great but where do you get ?

You could try www.batronix.com (http://www.batronix.com), The shipping costs to Israel would be €54.45 without VAT.

I got mine from Batronix.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aXion on October 21, 2014, 10:35:03 pm
I also ordered the DS1054Z from Batronix a week ago. Unfortunately they were not in stock so I will have to wait at least another three weeks (according to their website). Bummer
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thisguy81 on October 21, 2014, 10:42:38 pm
Thats great but where do you get ?

Hi,

I bought mine from Silcon Electroincs (www.silicon.cz (http://www.silicon.cz)). 294€ ex. VAT with free shipping within EU.
Excellent service, and very fast shipping - highly recommended.

BR Jonas

The link is broken..

BR Jonas
[/quote]
I also ordered the DS1054Z from Batronix a week ago. Unfortunately they were not in stock so I will have to wait at least another three weeks (according to their website). Bummer

Yes i know about them but like you said they are out of stock
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: deephaven on October 21, 2014, 10:54:06 pm
Thats great but where do you get ?

Hi,

I bought mine from Silcon Electroincs (www.silicon.cz (http://www.silicon.cz)). 294€ ex. VAT with free shipping within EU.
Excellent service, and very fast shipping - highly recommended.

BR Jonas

The link is broken..

Yes i know about them but like you said they are out of stock

Typo, it's http://www.silcon.cz/ (http://www.silcon.cz/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 22, 2014, 01:04:25 am
EDIT:  besides, when I prepared that retrospective, I thought we needed a break from the Hess/Marmad bout, that was in the 14th round.   :box:

Most boring bout ever  ;D

Two guys typing furiously:
"That is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"Uhh... no it isn't."
"Ok, THAT is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"No proof of that."
"Well, THAT is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"No, that's something else."
....
....
Rinse and repeat.  :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: iRad on October 22, 2014, 01:28:53 am
Most boring bout ever   :rant:

Two guys typing furiously:
At least one of the two (of the worst offenders) finally realizes it...
Unfortunately, this thread has already been thoroughly hosed, making it difficult for the typical person looking to buy one of these scopes to navigate through the muck.  :palm:

Too bad we can't roll the clock back on this one to message #37 and start over, where Dave says the following.

Off hand I can't think of another scope that even comes close in bang-per-buck for the same price?
...people don't feel comfortable with this mathematical concept though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 22, 2014, 01:31:09 am
I also ordered the DS1054Z from Batronix a week ago. Unfortunately they were not in stock so I will have to wait at least another three weeks (according to their website). Bummer
You should have tried arBenelux, they had one in stock last week.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thisguy81 on October 22, 2014, 01:39:11 am
They just got back to me from silicon electronics: 486.65$ + 65 EURO for shipping, and can only insure up to 120 EUR....  :(

Any other idea's ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 22, 2014, 01:44:32 am
Try the Swedish distributor for Rigol scopes:
http://www.instrumentcenter.se/sv/40-150-mhz-bandbredd/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloskop-med-50mhz-bandbredd-4-kanaler-1gsas-12mpts-minnesdjup-standard.php (http://www.instrumentcenter.se/sv/40-150-mhz-bandbredd/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloskop-med-50mhz-bandbredd-4-kanaler-1gsas-12mpts-minnesdjup-standard.php)



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 22, 2014, 01:51:06 am
At least one of the two (of the worst offenders) finally realizes it...

Oh, I've realized it all along. The question is: would it better to just not respond when someone makes unsupported allegations about problems the DSO has?

Quote
Unfortunately, this thread has already been thoroughly hosed, making it difficult for the typical person looking to buy one of these scopes to navigate through the muck.  :palm:

Hosed? As much as I realize there has been some off-topic (or close to off-topic) stuff, there has also been a serious discussion about the capabilities/limitations of the DSO. If you're just interested in a love-fest discussing what a fabulous buy it is, and where you can find it - an EE blog is probably not the place to look.  ;D

Quote
Too bad we can't roll the clock back on this one to message #37 and start over, where Dave says the following.

...people don't feel comfortable with this mathematical concept though.

As much as I enjoy Dave's posts, it's already been shown that the DS1000Z is susceptible to aliasing due to the filter roll-off when expecting to get 100MHz with 3/4 channels @ 250MSa/s (although no one has yet tested and posted a chart of the 50MHz roll-off).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 22, 2014, 01:56:21 am
(although no one has yet tested and posted a chart of the 50MHz roll-off).

Feel free to do so. Then we have facts on paper! :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 22, 2014, 01:58:00 am
Meltronics in Tel Aviv is the Rigol distributor for Israel.
http://www.meltronics.co.il/ (http://www.meltronics.co.il/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thisguy81 on October 22, 2014, 02:07:54 am
Meltronics in Tel Aviv is the Rigol distributor for Israel.
http://www.meltronics.co.il/ (http://www.meltronics.co.il/)

Yes, allready looked into that. Besides the fact they done have this model yet,and dont know if they will, they offered me to buy the DS1052E for 500$US.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: iRad on October 22, 2014, 02:13:27 am
Quote
Too bad we can't roll the clock back on this one to message #37 and start over, where Dave says the following.

...people don't feel comfortable with this mathematical concept though.

As much as I enjoy Dave's posts, it's already been shown that he's incorrect in what he stated about the 100MHz bandwidth (although no one has yet tested and posted a chart of the 50MHz roll-off).

You deleted the part I was referring to... The mathematical concept of value for the buck.

I refuse to comment any further on this subject, as I'm not up to starting another unnecessary boxing match in this thread.    :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 22, 2014, 02:20:08 am
You deleted the part I was referring to... The mathematical concept of value for the buck.

I refuse to comment any further on this subject, as I'm not up to starting another unnecessary boxing match in this thread.    :palm:

Yes... as you deleted the part directly before which it was referring to: the mathematical concept of bandwidth times sample rate.  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 22, 2014, 02:27:59 am
At least one of the two (of the worst offenders) finally realizes it...

Oh, I've realized it all along. The question is: would it better to just not respond when someone makes unsupported allegations about problems the DSO has?

YES

As the Talking Heads put it, Say something once, why say it again?   Of course it's always easier to apply this rule to someone else.

ETA: By which I mean, it's fine to disagree with someone, but try not to insist on having the last word.  Open minded people will get your point.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 22, 2014, 02:45:14 am
I also ordered the DS1054Z from Batronix a week ago. Unfortunately they were not in stock so I will have to wait at least another three weeks (according to their website). Bummer
You should have tried arBenelux, they had one in stock last week.
Yes, I have no affiliation with them, but if you live in the Netherlands and need a Rigol device do buy from them. I bought several Rigol devices there and their service is excellent.
Example: after about 3 months of use my DS2072 developed a problem on channel 1 (signals were 20+ dB down). No idea why, I don't think it was because I made a mistake. Anyway, they called me back the next day, telling me that they couldn't fix it themselves and we going to send the device back to Rigol. AND they were going to send me a new one the same day, at no cost and again with a full 3 years of warranty.
Recommended!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 22, 2014, 02:46:55 am
YES

As the Talking Heads put it, Say something once, why say it again?   Of course it's always easier to apply this rule to someone else.

Not to worry: I have a MSO1000Z arriving in a couple of days, so I'll start a separate thread discussing it's capabilities/limitations.

Of course, no Americans allowed (except Mark O!) ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 22, 2014, 02:55:36 am
At least one of the two (of the worst offenders) finally realizes it...

Oh, I've realized it all along. The question is: would it better to just not respond when someone makes unsupported allegations about problems the DSO has?

YES

As the Talking Heads put it, Say something once, why say it again?   Of course it's always easier to apply this rule to someone else.
Hmm I know it it's always the ones with the outspoken / strong opinions your hear of. I am curious how the silent minority in this forum feels about this issue.
Anyway, I think that the end result of the discussion(s) is an enhanced insight in the performance of the scope & there are things to be learned and understood (for instance the leakage issue near Fnyquist was an eye-opener for me).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 22, 2014, 04:07:57 am
As much as I realize there has been some off-topic (or close to off-topic) stuff, there has also been a serious discussion about the capabilities/limitations of the DSO.
And I for one am grateful for it. As Harry Callahan (almost) said, a man's got to know his scope's limitations.

As has been observed elsewhere, forum threads are not the best place for neatly packaged, predigested knowledge such as that found in textbooks or wikis. They are rather more like research notebooks; little nuggets of new information which may be available nowhere else, embedded in strata of less useful data.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: radiogeek97 on October 22, 2014, 05:04:19 am
Thanks to dave's review and to all the helpful folks here!  I sold my trusty 1052E on Ebay for a very good price and ordered my 1054z last night from T-equipment.  Unfortunately they are on back order for atleast 2 weeks  :-[   Will post my first impressions/ findings when it arrives  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 22, 2014, 08:49:15 am
Oops. My bad. The 10 MHz is indeed your blue line riding the wavecrests, not my (5 MHz) red line. Was not paying attention (and counting) as I was trying to reconcile the two signals (120 and 130) into a DSB waveform.

What kind of results do you get when averaging is used?

On my 2440 I can recover the original waveform at the wrong amplitude which is then rectified if I enable ETS.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 22, 2014, 09:12:42 am
Two guys typing furiously:
"That is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"Uhh... no it isn't."
"Ok, THAT is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"No proof of that."
"Well, THAT is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"No, that's something else."
....
....
Rinse and repeat.  :D

I agree that I initially chased the wrong problem but none of the signal sources used in the tests would have revealed the non-linearity discussed in the Agilent document I linked.

The interleaving issue affecting non-linearity came back with your own post although I did not bring it up then.  The datasheet you linked for the HMCAD1511 specifically mentions and includes specifications for "interleaving spurs" leading to an 13 dB difference in SFDR at 71 MHz.

On the bright side, I now have a clearer understanding of the limitations of Rigol's DSOs and other DSOs and I know better what tests to do when evaluating them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 22, 2014, 09:14:46 am
If the filter was long enough, then the 130 MHz image would have been removed.  The filter however is shorter than this because of both performance reasons and because the filter length subtracts from the usable record length at the ends where a full set of samples is not available to calculate it.

Hm I think I can see how with (much) longer sampling you might get rid of the mirror (leaked) frequency, as the sampling points "move" over the fundamental. but, but... wouldn't that be ETS?? sounds like cheating?

It would not be ETS any more than triggering after reconstruction which happens now.  It would still work on a single acquisition.  Incidently, ETS works with single acquisitions by aligning the waveform with the trigger point producing the same result as triggering after reconstruction.

Longer FIR filters require both proportionally more processing and more memory so it is not surprising that the minimal acceptable size is used.  This is especially a problem with FPGA based designs where the reconstructed sample rate is higher than the FPGA multiplier cycle time so the logic for the filter would have to be duplicated multiple times.  The filter could be implemented after acquisition like older DSOs but then the beginning and end of the acquisition record would need to be truncated where the input to the filter is invalid and high waveform acquisition rates would be more difficult.

Even in the best case, what would be gained?  The difference between 100 MHz and the 125 MHz Nyquist frequency is only 25 MHz.  I could see having it as a post-processing option on a long record length DSO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 22, 2014, 10:13:25 am
DSOs with longer and sharper reconstruction filters will display more accurate results up to their Nyquist frequency.

I have seen no evidence that any DSO manufacturer is doing this. Tek claims their FIR filters pass frequency components up to 80% of the Nyquist frequency - which, coincidentally, is 100MHz @ 250MSas/s rate - same ratio as what we see on the Rigol DS1000Z. Do you have have any specs or docs from any DSO that claim a higher percentage? It's all well and good to claim that something is mathematically possible - like travelling at just under the speed of light -  but it's quite another thing to realize it.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 22, 2014, 09:30:15 pm
Oh, I've realized it all along. The question is: would it better to just not respond when someone makes unsupported allegations about problems the DSO has?

YES

As the Talking Heads put it, Say something once, why say it again?   Of course it's always easier to apply this rule to someone else.

What if somebody drops in here and only reads the last few posts? If the only person still posting is the idiot/moron then they might get completely the wrong idea.

You don't have to write essays, just say "Nope, you're still wrong - re-read previous answers".

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 23, 2014, 05:00:32 am
Quote from: people link=topic=36920 date=allthetime
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH ....
What if somebody drops in here and only reads the last few posts? If the only person still posting is the idiot/moron then they might get completely the wrong idea.

I agree. This thread puts some threads on XDA to shame ;p

FFS US$399!!!!

Works just fine on 8Mhz SPI signals and decoding/triggering 4 channels, what more do you need?  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 23, 2014, 06:41:45 am
FFS US$399!!!!

:palm:

Yep, I can't believe anybody is nitrpicking over a $400 oscilloscope that can do as much as this one can. Demanding proof that the hack version really does have 100Mhz, because it's a ripoff if it doesn't (or something). I dunno what their point is to be honest, this thing's a total bargain even at 50MHz.

  :-//  |O  :palm:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 23, 2014, 09:23:41 am
On my 2440 I can recover the original waveform at the wrong amplitude, which is then rectified if I enable ETS.

Full-wave or half-wave?   :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 23, 2014, 09:38:07 am
Yep, I can't believe anybody is nitrpicking over a $400 oscilloscope that can do as much as this one can.
While it is incredible for the price, apparent oversights and rounded corners are still apparent oversights and rounded corners though.

This is just like any tool: once you know one of your favorite tools has a quirk you do not like, it will always be on the back of your mind regardless of how great it is otherwise.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on October 23, 2014, 10:41:46 am
Seems to me a psychological problem rather than a problem with the tool.

Can it be fixed? Yes - make it so. No - oh well, that's life. Move on, nothing to see here.   :-BROKE

I'm just amazed at the bang per buck of this stuff, it just kills pro stuff I've worked with in the not too distant past.

Maybe a "Pushing the Rigol 1000Z series to the limits" thread is needed?

 :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on October 23, 2014, 01:55:26 pm
FYI those in Oz who have been asking.
Emona will have stock on the 11th Nov.
I suspect they might sell out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 24, 2014, 08:44:15 pm
What kind of results do you get when averaging is used?

On my 2440 I can recover the original waveform at the wrong amplitude which is then rectified if I enable ETS.
Averaging has (as I expected) no effect on the displayed waveform. That is, if triggering is on the top of the highest wave so the display is stable in normal mode. See attachments.
If I have the trigger level on 0 volt the display is of course not stable, and in that case averaging shows a somewhat constant amplitude that is, indeed, the average of the amplitude(s)

The frequency counter is totally lost here :) The counter is not a HW counter as in the DS2000 series.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 25, 2014, 12:30:32 am
What kind of results do you get when averaging is used?

On my 2440 I can recover the original waveform at the wrong amplitude which is then rectified if I enable ETS.

Averaging has (as I expected) no effect on the displayed waveform. That is, if triggering is on the top of the highest wave so the display is stable in normal mode. See attachments.
If I have the trigger level on 0 volt the display is of course not stable, and in that case averaging shows a somewhat constant amplitude that is, indeed, the average of the amplitude(s)

Thank you for checking this.  It is what I expected as well.  I thought Rigol might have some special trick for handling this usage case but there really is no reason to.

Old DSOs with analog triggering behave differently because the trigger sees the original waveform without the aliasing and not what is shown when single shot acquisitions are made.  Both return misleading but different results.  If the signal source is a fast edge instead of a high frequency sine wave which is a more typical application, then both should return the same non-misleading results when averaging is used.

Quote
The frequency counter is totally lost here :) The counter is not a HW counter as in the DS2000 series.

I did not know the DS2000 series has a hardware counter.  Those are very nice to have sometimes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 26, 2014, 05:02:27 am
There are now so many DS1000Z threads that it's difficult to know where to post, but since we've been discussing the subject of sample rates and aliasing here, I figured I'd post it here (with a link over from the main DS1074Z thread).

Until now, the only info about the 20MHz BW limit roll-off I've seen was this graph made by seronday (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/msg337710/#msg337710) (which I used earlier in this thread when making a possible overall BW graph for the DS1000Z). Well, I don't have the necessary equipment to do a proper BW graph (no signal generator that goes high enough), but my simple test seems to indicate that either seronday's graph is wrong - or there is a lot of difference among the various models (I've got a MSO1074Z). Perhaps some other owners would like to test this as well?

In seronday's graph, he shows 100MHz as being attenuated to about -11.3dB when the 20MHz BW limit is turned on.   Edit: I think I stayed up too late working that night  :) - seronday's graph pretty well matches my own measurement.

My test shows a 100MHz 400mV sine being attenuated to ~-7.8dB.

First, here is a 100MHz sine on the DS2000, with and without the 20MHz limit on (-13.2dB down):

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=114723)

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=114725)


And here is a 100MHz sine on the MSO1000Z, with and without the 20MHz limit on (-7.8dB down):

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=114727)

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=114729)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 26, 2014, 06:21:24 am
It would be as or more interesting to see the positive and negative transition time results under optimum conditions with the different bandwidth limits.  Then contrast those with the -3 dB bandwidth measurements to see how closely the oscilloscope follows (or does not follow) the 0.35 rule for a single pole roll off.

Then do the same at different vertical sensitivities and especially at the highest and lowest or at least when the high impedance attenuator is engaged.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 26, 2014, 06:51:30 am
Test with my 1074Z ("upgraded" to 100 MHz - Marmad is your scope still original 70 MHz? if so this might explain the 2 dB difference)
205 mV with no BWL (@ 100 MHz) and 73 mV with 20 MHz BWL = -8.97 dB

Tomorrow I will do some risetime tests with my Williams pulse generator
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 26, 2014, 07:10:43 am
Test with a Williams pulse generator. 3 meters of coax on the collector to ensure a long enough pulse.

With no BWL the risetime is 3.1 ns. If we use 0.35 the Bandwidth would be 0.35/3.1e-9 = 113 MHz. Sounds plausible
With 20 MHz BWL the risetime is 14.7 ns, i.e. 0.35 / 14.7e-9 = 23.8 MHz.
Hmm looks ok'ish?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 26, 2014, 07:15:25 am
Marmad is your scope still original 70 MHz? if so this might explain the 2 dB difference

Yes, it's a loaner so it's unmodified. But the difference between our measurements was just slightly over 1dB.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 26, 2014, 07:20:43 am
Marmad is your scope still original 70 MHz? if so this might explain the 2 dB difference

Yes, it's a loaner so it's unmodified. But the difference between our measurements was just slightly over 1dB.
O yes. Well this 1 dB can be easily explained by the more limited BW of your scope so the amplitude is already a bit more down at 100 MHz than with my scope.
It looks like our scopes are probably not much different and seronday's  -11.3 dB is possibly faulty.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 26, 2014, 08:17:02 am
1) Is there any kind of information about these options?  I have found nothing beyond a brief sentence summary.
There's quite a bit of info in the user manual (http://www.adafruit.com/datasheets/DS1000z_Manual.pdf).

Quote
2) Are these options field-installable after the fact?  Or  must they be ordered with the unit?
They can be bought at any time (it's just a software key). There are also hacks available on this blog.

Quote
3) Does the "Serial Bus Analysis Option" possibly include Lan-C ?  (The Sony/Canon camera control protocol, see: EEVblog #297)
Or could I write a macro or something to add that to the protocols?
No - and no.

Quote
4) There is also an option: AT-DS1000Z - Advanced Triggering Option: RS232/UART,I2C,SPI,Runt,Windows,Nth Edge,
Do I need that ALSO in order to use the Serial Bus Analysis Option?
I don't think it's absolutely necessary (although I've never tried) - the Decode section has it's own definable parameters that are used irrespective of the trigger. But it makes life easier since you can get the Trigger working on the bus first, then just copy the Trigger settings to the Decode section.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 26, 2014, 08:19:16 am
O yes. Well this 1 dB can be easily explained by the more limited BW of your scope so the amplitude is already a bit more down at 100 MHz than with my scope.

That sounds about right. It's just a pity that the DS2000 has a better 20MHz limiter, even with double the base bandwidth, but I guess that's the drawback to the discrete front-end of the DS1000Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on October 26, 2014, 09:42:22 am
TEquipment is apparently out of stock, I guess that should be no great surprise
And I don't see any hint of when they think they might be in stock, probably not a big surprise, either.

I am very conflicted about when to order.  I am going to be out of town the first week of November,
and I don't want to order it now and possibly have them send it to be delivered while I am gone.
And I don't know how long the $399 price will remain?

He said 3 days ago that they have 100 more in order coming this week within 5 days so any time now and that most are sold out but some might be left, then another order 4 weeks later, why don't you PM Evan?
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/msg535230/#msg535230 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/msg535230/#msg535230)

Edit: as for your other questions, they do come with a free trial, so you can see if they fit your need before purchasing if you do feel uncomfortable by "unlocking" them like some are doing.

If you purchase them or unlock them, it's a serial code that you enter with the scope after the fact.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on October 26, 2014, 09:50:37 am
Quote
3) Does the "Serial Bus Analysis Option" possibly include Lan-C ?  (The Sony/Canon camera control protocol, see: EEVblog #297)
Or could I write a macro or something to add that to the protocols?
No - and no.

Not really an absolute No, he could take the recorded waveform and convert it to digital levels respecting the timing and feed that to his own decoder.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: seronday on October 26, 2014, 10:28:22 am
In seronday's graph, he shows 100MHz as being attenuated to about -11.3dB when the 20MHz BW limit is turned on. My test shows a 100MHz 400mV sine being attenuated to ~-7.8dB.
Marmad,
The reference frequency for all levels on the Graph in question is 1Mhz.
You appear to be measuring the difference in levels at 100Mhz which is in fact approx. 8dB.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 26, 2014, 10:53:38 am
Quote
3) Does the "Serial Bus Analysis Option" possibly include Lan-C ?  (The Sony/Canon camera control protocol, see: EEVblog #297)
Or could I write a macro or something to add that to the protocols?
No - and no.

Not really an absolute No, he could take the recorded waveform and convert it to digital levels respecting the timing and feed that to his own decoder.

That goes without saying; you can do the exact same thing for any DSO that can save a waveform (virtually every one manufactured). But that is neither a macro nor something you can add to the existing protocols (i.e. internally).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 26, 2014, 11:03:31 am
Marmad,
The reference frequency for all levels on the Graph in question is 1Mhz.
You appear to be measuring the difference in levels at 100Mhz which is in fact approx. 8dB.

Ok. But I didn't see that mentioned in your original post (although I now see the graph begins at 1MHz) - and why 1MHz for a 100MHz DSO?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: seronday on October 26, 2014, 12:13:07 pm
Marmad.
When measuring the frequency response of an instrument such as an oscilloscope you would normally start at DC and work upwards in frequency from there, to find and record any variations in level.

A quick check doing this on a DS1074Z shows that the frequency response is essentially flat up to about 12Mhz and then starts to roll off.
When the 20Mhz Band Limit Filter is selected the roll off starts at approx 3Mhz.

Generally in the performance verification documentation for an oscilloscope, the manufacturer specifies the reference frequency to use for the bandwith performance measurement.
This document does not appear to exist as yet for the Rigol DS1000Z series.
There is however such a document for the DS4000 series in which they do specify using 1Mhz as the reference frequency.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 26, 2014, 12:14:50 pm
Test with a Williams pulse generator. 3 meters of coax on the collector to ensure a long enough pulse.

With no BWL the risetime is 3.1 ns. If we use 0.35 the Bandwidth would be 0.35/3.1e-9 = 113 MHz. Sounds plausible
With 20 MHz BWL the risetime is 14.7 ns, i.e. 0.35 / 14.7e-9 = 23.8 MHz.
Hmm looks ok'ish?

They look fine to me.  The 3.1 nanosecond example might be showing dribble-up in the charge line.  I wonder what that little dip is before the leading edge in both examples.  I have seen it before and been given several explanations depending on the oscilloscope design.

I was chatting in email with someone about the design and came up with a calculated value of below 28 MHz for the 20 MHz bandwidth limit from Dave's reverse engineered schematic.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 26, 2014, 12:54:34 pm
Marmad,
The reference frequency for all levels on the Graph in question is 1Mhz.
You appear to be measuring the difference in levels at 100Mhz which is in fact approx. 8dB.

Ok. But I didn't see that mentioned in your original post (although I now see the graph begins at 1MHz) - and why 1MHz for a 100MHz DSO?

The reference level on an SG503 leveled sine wave generator intended for testing oscilloscopes up to 250 MHz is 50 kHz.  On an SG504 intended for testing from 250 MHz to 1 GHz, it is 50 kHz and 6 MHz.  The flatness of the leveled generator will be specified in comparison to the reference frequency and they will perform better than typical RF test equipment; amplitude variation could be within 4% (0.35dB) or better.  The graph I posted in that discussion thread from a 2232 should be within +1.5/-1.0% or about 0.22 dB peak to peak error.

Calibration of a leveled sine wave generator itself presents an interesting dilemma.

Like seronday says, the oscilloscope calibration instructions or specifications often or usually include the reference frequency used for flatness.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 27, 2014, 12:33:03 am
Marmad.
When measuring the frequency response of an instrument such as an oscilloscope you would normally start at DC and work upwards in frequency from there, to find and record any variations in level.

Doh! :-[  Wow, somehow my left brain was malfunctioning yesterday (probably from breathing too much dust - I'm in the middle of a demolition of my old kitchen) and I somehow overlooked the obvious. Sorry about that (although I still don't understand why your frequency axis is non-uniform  :) )!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on October 29, 2014, 04:00:22 am
It looks like shipping date from Tequipment has moved to November 20, 2014 :(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on October 29, 2014, 04:34:35 am
False alarm
Quote
You may have received an automated message stating your ship date was changed to 11/20/2014.  Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience, as your order is firm and your ship date is ~11/3/2014. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nkw on October 29, 2014, 04:47:54 am
False alarm
Quote
You may have received an automated message stating your ship date was changed to 11/20/2014.  Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience, as your order is firm and your ship date is ~11/3/2014. 

Can I ask how/when you received the second message? I received the delay e-mail with the 11/20 date this morning but not the second message with the 11/3 date. I'm trying to decide if I should cancel with tequipment and look someplace else.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on October 29, 2014, 04:50:04 am
It came from Christine Hoh from Tequipment  35 minutes ago.

I'd contact them directly if you have doubts.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nkw on October 29, 2014, 05:21:51 am
It came from Christine Hoh from Tequipment  35 minutes ago.

Received an email from them about 15 minutes after I posted about it. Nov-3 is much better than Nov-20. Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on October 29, 2014, 07:37:44 am
Just to update everyone.  We have 85 units coming in on this shipment.  This shipment is sold though.  If you are part of the 85 that are inbound, you got an email about the error in pushing the date back. 

We have a special air shipment of 100 units coming Nov 20th and then we have a  bunch more arriving in early December.  We have some units on the November shipment that are not sold yet. We have the only stock in the USA at this point until December because of our big pre orders.

Thanks for the business!
Evan Cirelli
TEquipment.NET

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JoeO on October 29, 2014, 07:52:39 am
Thanks for the update Evan. 

I have also received the 2 emails with the 11/3 ship date in the second email.

JOe
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Micael on October 30, 2014, 11:18:05 pm
Got this email from batronix:

"On 24th October you have ordered a Rigol DS1054Z.

Herewith, we would like to inform you that your requested device is not available yet.

At the moment, we are waiting on three deliveries from Rigol for this device. The estimated time of arrival for the first delivery lies between November 7th - 10th. The second delivery approximately at the beginning of December, the third around mid of December.

Due to your position in our waiting list, you will receive a device from the second delivery. We are sorry for the inconvenience.

We are apologising for this delay. The demand for this devise is unexpectedly high. Rigol itself can currently not manufacture as many devises as needed at the moment.

If the time of waiting is too long for you, you are welcome to choose a similar product from this series. We grant you a 8% discount because of the special circumstances.

Best regards,

Thorsten Schliszio"

I guess the DS1054Z is going to be an early Christmas present over here.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: argg on October 31, 2014, 05:32:51 am
same here,  I ordered today and they promised to ship with the delivery they expect on Dec 6.  Early Xmas for us indeed  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fcsteve777 on November 01, 2014, 12:41:19 am
Just placed my order. Also allocated for the Dec. 6 Order! :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thoe on November 01, 2014, 05:32:46 am
Got this email from batronix:

"On 24th October you have ordered a Rigol DS1054Z.
[...]

Got the same mail a few days ago, ordered on 17th - and also in the second delivery.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: electr_peter on November 02, 2014, 05:44:11 am
I am waiting for the first shippment from Batronix (nov. 6). If anyone would be interested in getting DS1054Z quicker, I could trade my spot sell scope once it arrives to PL, LT and LV residents (with postal service/local pickup) and still get scope in a new batch before Christmas.

EDIT: Batronix does not allow to change delivery address at this late state. Local pickup/postal parcel offer still valid for PL/LT/LV residents.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Micael on November 02, 2014, 09:04:24 am
Quite the generous offer, although I suspect that batronix wouldn't be able to do that, they can't even issue an invoice until the item is scanned for shipping, so I assume (possibly wrongly) that they might not be able to change places in queues either.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: orin on November 05, 2014, 09:05:12 am
Evan,

Your system seems to have gone seriously nuts...

Order 10/23
10/24 confirmation with expected ship date 10/30
10/28 update with expected ship date 11/20
Yesterday, 11/3 update with expected ship date 11/3
Today, 11/4 update with expected ship date 11/20

Edit/update:

11/6 update with ship date of 11/6 for the freebie AC Voltage Sensor
11/11 tracking # for freebie that shipped 11/10 (Why?  The order is marked ship complete.)
11/12 update with expected ship date 11/12

I anxiously await the next installment in this drama.  Edit: Again.

Orin.

Just to update everyone.  We have 85 units coming in on this shipment.  This shipment is sold though.  If you are part of the 85 that are inbound, you got an email about the error in pushing the date back. 

We have a special air shipment of 100 units coming Nov 20th and then we have a  bunch more arriving in early December.  We have some units on the November shipment that are not sold yet. We have the only stock in the USA at this point until December because of our big pre orders.

Thanks for the business!
Evan Cirelli
TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 1uk3 on November 06, 2014, 06:59:04 am
Batronix shipped the first batch today :clap:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: radiogeek97 on November 06, 2014, 10:13:42 pm
Mine arrived from t-equipment yesterday  :clap:   All I have managed to do with my 2 y/o under foot is to un box it and make some changes wink wink. ALL WORKED     now all I am waiting for is the cash for a dsa815tg.   T-equipment ships fast and their customer service has been great I guess from all accounts they have been flooded with orders for this and just don't have product to ship. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: baltersice on November 06, 2014, 10:56:03 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/uAhCdgNs.jpg) (http://imgur.com/uAhCdgN)
Got mine from Batronix today, best spot on the desk assigned (:
But that fan really is too audible for me, must find replacement for that ...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on November 07, 2014, 04:34:49 am
Just an FYI for people in the states... Our next shipment comes in about 10 days. It should be a little earlier than expected.

Out of the 95 we have 14 not sold yet if any eevblog members want to get them before the rest of the world does.  We will be sold out in a few days until the beginning of dec.

Thanks
Evan
TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: schollce on November 07, 2014, 07:22:20 am
Is there still an EEVBlog discount and/or student discount available for the DS1054Z? As a CE student, I was eyeing the DS1052E a while ago, but for the price difference, this model is hard to beat. Really need to learn the hardware side of things.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 07, 2014, 11:20:40 am
I have one on order from Emona here in Australia, has anyone else? If so have you received it? It should be close.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: briselec on November 07, 2014, 02:50:41 pm
I have one on order from Emona here in Australia, has anyone else? If so have you received it? It should be close.

Ordered in September, told 4 weeks, rang when I didn't hear anything, told another 4 weeks which means around the end of november. Not getting my hopes up that it will be here by then.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mathieu on November 07, 2014, 09:29:20 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/uAhCdgNs.jpg) (http://imgur.com/uAhCdgN)
Got mine from Batronix today, best spot on the desk assigned (:
But that fan really is too audible for me, must find replacement for that ...

Hi!
I placed in my DS1000z the GELID Silent 5 fan. (gelidsolutions.com)
Its working very quiet!

Mathieu
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thoe on November 07, 2014, 10:37:42 pm
[..]
I placed in my DS1000z the GELID Silent 5 fan. (gelidsolutions.com)
Its working very quiet!
[..]

... thanks for sharing your experience, i think one of the first things to do is replacing the fan.
(My order has been shipped yesterday from Batronix.  :-+)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 08, 2014, 06:01:51 am
My first comment here ...

I just want to say thank you to all the participants in the aliasing and bandwidth conversation ... it helped round out my amateur understanding of the theory and REALLY helped me know what to expect with my first digital scope (yep, I'm still lugging a boat anchor around all over the place).  I am especially thankful that replies to errant interpretations are handled gently and without personal insult.  The corrections and explanation of different contexts that bring meaning to the specs are valuable.  It's one thing to understand the glossed-over explanations of Nyquist theorem, it's another to learn what the actual ramifications are, complete with screenshots.

I really appreciate it.

I placed my order with TEquipment last night, my order confirmation says estmated shipment 11/27.  (Pouting about that.)  Hopefully it won't come with a different firmware.  :)

I have a question for the experts here ....  In my field sometimes I have to take some pretty dangerous measurements.  By that I mean looking at a waveform across a device that might be 600 volts DC off ground (yikes).  Since isolated probes are extremely expensive, it is (unofficially) routine to break the rules by 'floating' the case of the scope on an insulated surface and using an isolation transformer to power the scope (and not touching the case when the power is on).  The question is, are there any special considerations with this new digital scope that would make things any different from the old analog scope when making floating measurements like this?  (Obligatory note: I work with dangerous equipment that has dangerous voltages and this practice is not recommended.  You're supposed to buy an isolated/insulated scope and/or an isolated probe.  Don't try this at home or at work.  I already know this.)


--Wyatt--
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on November 08, 2014, 06:10:00 am
The question is, are there any special considerations with this new digital scope that would make things any different from the old analog scope when making floating measurements like this?

Good question :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on November 08, 2014, 06:14:54 am
Our shipment should be here a week early but we dont want to update dates again.  If it comes early great! ( they are in transit now from china via air )  If not we are giving that date for now.

Thanks
Evan

TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 08, 2014, 06:29:52 am
For those in Australia who are keen to get one of the DS1054z.

I spoke too, and received an email from Emona in Melbourne on 31/10/14, confirming that stock should be available from 24/11/14. At the time of correspondence the expected initial shipment was for 50 units, 30 of which had been pre allocated. Following shipments will be staggered and not far away, and availability dates in other states may vary accordingly.

Personally a DSO is not a regular item that occupy's my bench space and I still enjoy using the TDS 1002, others may need one going 24/7 for their projects and repairs. Then of course the dilemma factor comes into play, do I jump on the current version which may be end user " enhanced ", or do I hold off and wait for the dust to settle and risk that later versions may have a restriction on options.

I still have a theory that nowadays devices that can be modded or user enhanced get far more attention and free promotion in this media than they otherwise would, anyway food for thought.

Muttley
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on November 08, 2014, 06:34:25 am
I have a question for the experts here ....  In my field sometimes I have to take some pretty dangerous measurements.  By that I mean looking at a waveform across a device that might be 600 volts DC off ground (yikes).  Since isolated probes are extremely expensive, it is (unofficially) routine to break the rules by 'floating' the case of the scope on an insulated surface and using an isolation transformer to power the scope (and not touching the case when the power is on).  The question is, are there any special considerations with this new digital scope that would make things any different from the old analog scope when making floating measurements like this?  (Obligatory note: I work with dangerous equipment that has dangerous voltages and this practice is not recommended.  You're supposed to buy an isolated/insulated scope and/or an isolated probe.  Don't try this at home or at work.  I already know this.)


--Wyatt--

Not an expert, but there is a safer alternative, but you are still dealing with high voltages so the only safe way will be not to do things you don't fully understand that are dangerous.

You can use 2 channels with A+B and inverting B, like people been doing it on analog scopes when you need to measure voltages that are not ground referenced to your equipment after removing the ground clips on your probes.

Still you need good quality probes for the task and your scope should be able to handle that voltage. In the case of the DS1054Z is only rated up to 300V RMS, not sure on DC you will have to look up the specs.

Also the probes that come with it are probably no good for 600V.

And finally, Math function on digital scopes (at least at this price level) required to do the A + Inverse B, is not particularly fast, but should be fine for low frequencies or when real time is not that important.

I wouldn't use this scope for measuring anything higher than mains, and I wouldn't use it to measure mains because there is rarely a reason to do that when you can use a DMM instead for most tasks.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 08, 2014, 06:35:32 am
Thanks, Evan.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 08, 2014, 06:41:19 am

Not an expert, but there is a safer alternative, but you are still dealing with high voltages so the only safe way will be not to do things you don't fully understand that are dangerous.

You can use 2 channels with A+B and inverting B, like people been doing it on analog scopes when you need to measure voltages that are not ground referenced to your equipment after removing the ground clips on your probes.

Still you need good quality probes for the task and your scope should be able to handle that voltage. In the case of the DS1054Z is only rated up to 300V RMS, not sure on DC you will have to look up the specs.

Also the probes that come with it are probably no good for 600V.

And finally, Math function on digital scopes (at least at this price level) required to do the A + Inverse B, is not particularly fast, but should be fine for low frequencies or when real time is not that important.

I wouldn't use this scope for measuring anything higher than mains, and I wouldn't use it to measure mains because there is rarely a reason to do that when you can use a DMM instead for most tasks.

Thank you for your reply.  I use a 100x probe for this, one of the things that gets looked at is the DV/DT of the spike across an SCR at up to 1200 volts.  (Yikes!) I hope I am not mistaken in thinking that the 100x probe allows measuring higher voltage?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on November 08, 2014, 06:46:34 am
I use a 100x probe for this, one of the things that gets looked at is the DV/DT of the spike across an SCR at up to 1200 volts.  (Yikes!) I hope I am not mistaken in thinking that the 100x probe allows measuring higher voltage?

A 10x probe allows a higher test voltage by a factor of 10, and yes 100x a factor of 100...... BUT!

Remember that the probe ground IS AT EARTH GROUND and you cannot connect that anywhere except for a confirmed earth potential on the device under test unless the device under test is connected using an isolation transformer. The probe also need to be rated for the higher voltage your are probing and preferably with a proper CAT rating and with a 3rd party certification.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 08, 2014, 06:57:13 am

A 10x probe allows a higher test voltage by a factor of 10, and yes 100x a factor of 100...... BUT!

Remember that the probe ground IS AT EARTH GROUND and you cannot connect that anywhere except for a confirmed earth potential on the device under test unless the device under test is connected using an isolation transformer. The probe also need to be rated for the higher voltage your are probing and preferably with a proper CAT rating and with a 3rd party certification.

Understood, thanks.  I already have the proper probe.  The device under test is usually bigger than an elephant, so it is the scope the gets connected by an isolation transformer, and the probe is at case potential (don't touch!).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on November 08, 2014, 07:50:39 am
I have a question for the experts here ....  In my field sometimes I have to take some pretty dangerous measurements.  By that I mean looking at a waveform across a device that might be 600 volts DC off ground (yikes).  Since isolated probes are extremely expensive, it is (unofficially) routine to break the rules by 'floating' the case of the scope on an insulated surface and using an isolation transformer to power the scope (and not touching the case when the power is on).  The question is, are there any special considerations with this new digital scope that would make things any different from the old analog scope when making floating measurements like this?  (Obligatory note: I work with dangerous equipment that has dangerous voltages and this practice is not recommended.  You're supposed to buy an isolated/insulated scope and/or an isolated probe.  Don't try this at home or at work.  I already know this.)

Could you afford $650 for a Rigol RP1050D?

http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/RP1050D/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/RP1050D/)
http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/RP1000D_UserGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/RP1000D_UserGuide_EN.pdf)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 08, 2014, 07:51:54 am
Keep in mind that attenuating probes have their own voltage limits.  A typical x100 probe is only good to 1.2 to 2.0 kilovolts no matter what the oscilloscope input can handle.  This is one of those applications where I would derate the probe's voltage specification just for safety; I like Lightages' comment about using probes with CAT certification.

The attenuation of the probes combined with the oscilloscope input scale factors on both channels are unlikely to match exactly which will lower the common mode rejection ratio at low frequencies but most oscilloscopes have some kind of variable gain function which allows the combined probes and channels to be matched which will significantly improve common mode rejection.  The Rigol has a fine vertical scale adjustment which should cover this although the documentation does not describe it well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Micael on November 08, 2014, 08:37:43 am
(http://i.imgur.com/uAhCdgNs.jpg) (http://imgur.com/uAhCdgN)
Got mine from Batronix today, best spot on the desk assigned (:
But that fan really is too audible for me, must find replacement for that ...

Hi!
I placed in my DS1000z the GELID Silent 5 fan. (gelidsolutions.com)
Its working very quiet!

Mathieu

I'm assuming doing this broke the warranty?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on November 08, 2014, 09:25:09 am
The question is, are there any special considerations with this new digital scope that would make things any different from the old analog scope when making floating measurements like this?  (Obligatory note: I work with dangerous equipment that has dangerous voltages and this practice is not recommended.  You're supposed to buy an isolated/insulated scope and/or an isolated probe.  Don't try this at home or at work.  I already know this.)
If you need to make differential measurements on medium/high-voltage circuits on a semi-regular basis, you really should follow your own advice and get a proper high-voltage differential probe.

Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 08, 2014, 03:06:52 pm
Thanks for your replies.  I'd like that nice high voltage differential probe but I can't justify it.  I might need to take a measurement like I described maybe once every three years or so (I learned how to troubleshoot 99% of the problems without looking at that waveform).

It seems all the considerations for doing this are the same whether the scope is digital or analog....

Just a comment about the bandwidth / aliasing discussion ... whenever you're working with power inverters, choppers, etc., about the only place you ever see anything that resembles a sine wave is at the output, and that's when everything is working right.  :)  Often what needs to be caught is the amplitude of a steep spike, as across an SCR in a commutating circuit, and often when there are problems to troubleshoot, transients are involved that can destroy devices.  There's no way I can be sure there won't be high frequency components on a waveform, generally.  That's one of the reasons why I appreciated that discussion.  That said, we generally get by on mediocre equipment, helped by a knowledge of its limitations.  So thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 08, 2014, 08:49:30 pm
Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.

Jim Williams designed and built a more demanding differential probe which is documented started at page 72 of Linear Technology application note 65.  The custom differential input amplifier he designed fits within your $40 budget but would need some changes for DC operation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mathieu on November 09, 2014, 12:25:29 am
(http://i.imgur.com/uAhCdgNs.jpg) (http://imgur.com/uAhCdgN)
Got mine from Batronix today, best spot on the desk assigned (:
But that fan really is too audible for me, must find replacement for that ...

Hi!
I placed in my DS1000z the GELID Silent 5 fan. (gelidsolutions.com)
Its working very quiet!

Mathieu

I'm assuming doing this broke the warranty?

Better broken the warranty in stead of the sound barrier!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on November 09, 2014, 01:38:18 am
Just a comment about the bandwidth / aliasing discussion ... whenever you're working with power inverters, choppers, etc., about the only place you ever see anything that resembles a sine wave is at the output, and that's when everything is working right.  :)  Often what needs to be caught is the amplitude of a steep spike, as across an SCR in a commutating circuit, and often when there are problems to troubleshoot, transients are involved that can destroy devices.  There's no way I can be sure there won't be high frequency components on a waveform, generally.  That's one of the reasons why I appreciated that discussion.  That said, we generally get by on mediocre equipment, helped by a knowledge of its limitations.  So thanks!
I am no expert on power converters, but I understand that they mostly operate in the tens of Kilohertz range to a few 100's Kilohertz. Only very high-end stuff into a few Megahertz. I know that internally rise-times can and will be very short and that they generate all kinds of nasty harmonics into the tens of Megahertz (after all I can hear those nasty signals on my HF transceivers) but I think you can safely assume that frequency components > 100 MHz in these devices are way lower than the signals you are analyzing, so if these alias back the amplitude is probably way below the threshold of what is visible (the ADC is only 8 bits). And if in doubt use only one channel and Fnyquist moves up to 500 MHz. If you see no change in the signal then aliasing is no problem.
And if you see ristimes of individual pulse in the order of 3.5 ns (for a 100 MHz scope this as abt the minimum rise time you can see) than you know you have to be careful how to interpret these....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 09, 2014, 03:33:28 am

I am no expert on power converters, but I understand that they mostly operate in the tens of Kilohertz range to a few 100's Kilohertz. Only very high-end stuff into a few Megahertz. I know that internally rise-times can and will be very short and that they generate all kinds of nasty harmonics into the tens of Megahertz (after all I can hear those nasty signals on my HF transceivers) but I think you can safely assume that frequency components > 100 MHz in these devices are way lower than the signals you are analyzing, so if these alias back the amplitude is probably way below the threshold of what is visible (the ADC is only 8 bits). And if in doubt use only one channel and Fnyquist moves up to 500 MHz. If you see no change in the signal then aliasing is no problem.
And if you see ristimes of individual pulse in the order of 3.5 ns (for a 100 MHz scope this as abt the minimum rise time you can see) than you know you have to be careful how to interpret these....

All your assumptions are true about the power converters.  I play with everything from servo and AC motor drives, to phase-shift SCR controllers to SCR type inverters of various designs to IGBT type inverters, generally very high power from 20 KW up to 1 MW with frequencies up to 100 KHz or so.  Oh, and some tube type oscillators up to 150 KW, 450 KHz (you don't measure anything directly in that circuit if you know what's good for you).  My new toy will be a very nice upgrade for me.  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 09, 2014, 04:12:01 am
Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.

Jim Williams designed and built a more demanding differential probe which is documented started at page 72 of Linear Technology application note 65.  The custom differential input amplifier he designed fits within your $40 budget but would need some changes for DC operation.

"Measuring voltage of floating lamp circuits requires a nearly heroic effort."

I'll say it does!  Good thing the things I play with are steam-powered by comparison.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 09, 2014, 04:35:12 am
Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.

Jim Williams designed and built a more demanding differential probe which is documented started at page 72 of Linear Technology application note 65.  The custom differential input amplifier he designed fits within your $40 budget but would need some changes for DC operation.

"Measuring voltage of floating lamp circuits requires a nearly heroic effort."

I'll say it does!  Good thing the things I play with are steam-powered by comparison.

There are a number of gems in that application note:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on November 09, 2014, 09:09:47 am
I play with everything from servo and AC motor drives, to phase-shift SCR controllers to SCR type inverters of various designs to IGBT type inverters, generally very high power from 20 KW up to 1 MW with frequencies up to 100 KHz or so.  Oh, and some tube type oscillators up to 150 KW, 450 KHz (you don't measure anything directly in that circuit if you know what's good for you).  My new toy will be a very nice upgrade for me.  Thanks.
Hmm it looks like aliasing should be way down on your list of worries  :o If you must play with your life at least use tools that provide a minimum amount of safety.
When I was abt 15 yo I built quite a few amplifiers and (FM) transmitters with tubes. But I got zapped so many times that I decided this was not for me (too sloppy / careless I suppose). Now if I blow something up I want to be sure it is not me  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 09, 2014, 09:29:45 am
So I decided to get this scope based on various YT reviews, recommendations in my thread (I am the looking-for-a-sub-$475-dso-but-lost-in-what-to-choose dude), and what I've read in this thread (yes, I've read all of it! Most of it which extremely educational too).

I am going to buy from tequipment and take advantage of the eevblog discount but also I've heard of them having a student discount, and luckily I am still a student. Using my .edu email doesn't seem to change anything for this scope, but it does for a few others (siglent for example). Anyone know if the student discount applies only for certain brands/scopes? From what I understand 14 were unsold from their batch they are getting today or tomorrow with the next batch being a few weeks from now, so I am eager to order this ASAP.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on November 09, 2014, 09:48:03 am
I am going to buy from tequipment and take advantage of the eevblog discount but also I've heard of them having a student discount, and luckily I am still a student. Using my .edu email doesn't seem to change anything for this scope, but it does for a few others (siglent for example). Anyone know if the student discount applies only for certain brands/scopes? From what I understand 14 were unsold from their batch they are getting today or tomorrow with the next batch being a few weeks from now, so I am eager to order this ASAP.

If you look at their education site techedu.com (http://www.techedu.com/Rigol/Digital-Oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z-Bandwidth-50-Mhz (http://www.techedu.com/Rigol/Digital-Oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z-Bandwidth-50-Mhz)) they don't seem to be offering a student discount on this model.  However, you could place the order with the EEVblog discount and then chat with them Monday to see if they will give you an additional student discount.  It never hurts to ask.

If you have a Discover card, be sure to register for the current 5% cashback promotion and use that to buy the scope.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dave3533 on November 09, 2014, 10:24:24 am

I am going to buy from tequipment and take advantage of the eevblog discount but also I've heard of them having a student discount, and luckily I am still a student. Using my .edu email doesn't seem to change anything for this scope

Per my discussions with TEquipment support, the EEVBLOG discount > student discount, mainly due to the free shipping.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 09, 2014, 10:29:06 am
Per my discussions with TEquipment support, the EEVBLOG discount > student discount, mainly due to the free shipping.

Forgive me if this is a foolish question, but how can I actually apply the code? I only see the ability to request a quote, so I assume I would get a price with the discount by monday which would likely mean I get put into the next batch. Is there any way for that code to be applied without waiting till Monday? If not, what are y'all thoughts on ordering now and then calling them on monday asking if they can apply the discount after purchase?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on November 09, 2014, 11:13:11 am
Forgive me if this is a foolish question, but how can I actually apply the code? I only see the ability to request a quote, so I assume I would get a price with the discount by monday which would likely mean I get put into the next batch. Is there any way for that code to be applied without waiting till Monday? If not, what are y'all thoughts on ordering now and then calling them on monday asking if they can apply the discount after purchase?
When you get to the payment section, there's a spot where you can enter codes (enter in the shipping and billing addresses, hit continue in green, and it's on the next page).

Sent a PM regarding codes, so check your messages (they've requested we not post their discount codes).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 09, 2014, 12:31:09 pm
Thanks nanofrog and everyone else for all your help! You all are a really awesome and helpful bunch.  :-+

So I just ordered today and had 0$ tax, 0$ shipping, the AC high voltage sensor, and of course the scope, for $375. Based on PM's, I decided to go against the student discount of 5% since it's less beneficial than the eevblog discount. Hopefully I am in the current batch and won't have to wait like 3 weeks for teq to get their next shipment.  :P
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 09, 2014, 06:20:11 pm
So I just ordered today and had 0$ tax, 0$ shipping, the AC high voltage sensor, and of course the scope, for $375.

AC high voltage sensor?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on November 09, 2014, 06:37:28 pm
I think he means the voltage detector that they include for free.
http://www.tequipment.net/SantronicsAC-EZ.html (http://www.tequipment.net/SantronicsAC-EZ.html)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hochopeper on November 10, 2014, 02:53:22 pm
I have one on order from Emona here in Australia, has anyone else? If so have you received it? It should be close.

Ordered in September, told 4 weeks, rang when I didn't hear anything, told another 4 weeks which means around the end of november. Not getting my hopes up that it will be here by then.


Odd. I ordered 1 Oct, was told mid October that Emona were expecting stock around 10th Nov. I nagged them this morning and got an email back saying that stock arrived and they were going to post mine within 24hours.  A friend ordered a week or so before me and his arrived from Emona late last week.


Happy days!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 12, 2014, 03:15:13 am
For those of you who are looking for where to buy your scope, Teq said
Quote
we have another 95 units arriving in the next week or so therefore your order should be included with that batch of shipments to go out.
so there ya go.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on November 12, 2014, 09:39:21 am
For those who don't follow Dave's tweets, he is working on a DS1054Z review :-+

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 12, 2014, 02:58:09 pm
Mine's waiting for me to pick it up from Emona tomorrow morning!

Poor old BWD is going to have company on the shelf.   ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 12, 2014, 04:22:43 pm
Got mine today from Tequipment. The scope is awesome.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 12, 2014, 08:35:44 pm
Unfortunately, I am still yet to order one and am trying desperately to justify the purchase, the outlay is no issue and I can claim it as a  business asset. I just have way too many gadget's and most of which are hardly ever used.

My go to scope is still a Tek TDS-1002 but it's all I've ever needed, really the only justification I have is the knowledge that may be gained in using a current day scope with a few new features.

My TEK has an error log which also show's boot up's was 67 now is 4 after I accessed the service menu recently, do the Rigols a have similar thing, couldn't see it in the manual.

Anyway,
I do have one more question someone may know this off hand, can the supplied firmware be backed up, exported or even downloaded should a person wish to restore the units original configuration. Just in case there was an issue during the warranty period ( 3 years ). Could the " enhancement of options " be reversed.

Many Thanks

Muttley
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 13, 2014, 02:54:49 am
I just got an e-mail from TEquipment, my 1054z is shipping today instead of next week. WoooHooo :clap:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fcsteve777 on November 13, 2014, 03:03:58 am
I just recieved the same email! :scared:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 13, 2014, 03:46:11 am
Don't go to the website, it shows shipping of 12/31/2014......
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mikepa on November 13, 2014, 07:20:06 am
I received the shipping today email .. then an hour later shipping 12/31 !!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on November 13, 2014, 08:36:27 am
I just got an e-mail from TEquipment, my 1054z is shipping today instead of next week. WoooHooo :clap:
Got the same email, but mine won't actually ship until Friday the 14th due to the single shipment to keep the free shipping.

I can't see spending an extra $9.08 just to ship a few soldering tips, so I'll deal with waiting the extra 4 calendar days.  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poida_pie on November 13, 2014, 12:11:38 pm
For those of us in AUS, www.eyou.com.au (http://www.eyou.com.au)  has stock of the DS1054Z and can ship immediately.
I just bought one today, cost was $439 + GST and freight.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 13, 2014, 07:07:03 pm
Picked up my Rigol at lunchtime. A$482.90 inc GST from Emona Brisbane.

Bang for buck is quite amazing. Fired it up and checked the channels so far.

For anyone visiting Emona in Brissy... They have a single office in the back corner of a Honda motorbike dealership at 1019 Ipswich Road, Moorooka. No street signage, nothing.

A more unlikely place I have never picked up a new piece of test gear from!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 13, 2014, 10:09:44 pm
OMG how bad is Rigol's software for the DS1054Z (and others)?  |O
UltraVision driver is buggy and bloated.
UltraScope doesn't even come on the CD included!, and when I install it I can't even find it  :-BROKE
 :rant:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on November 13, 2014, 11:11:34 pm
Picked up my Rigol at lunchtime. A$482.90 inc GST from Emona Brisbane.

Bang for buck is quite amazing. Fired it up and checked the channels so far.

For anyone visiting Emona in Brissy... They have a single office in the back corner of a Honda motorbike dealership at 1019 Ipswich Road, Moorooka. No street signage, nothing.

A more unlikely place I have never picked up a new piece of test gear from!
Sounds assuring if you buy from him ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on November 13, 2014, 11:51:00 pm
OMG how bad is Rigol's software for the DS1054Z (and others)?  |O
UltraVision driver is buggy and bloated.
UltraScope doesn't even come on the CD included!, and when I install it I can't even find it  :-BROKE
 :rant:

I actually had zero problems with installing it. It is not very useful though, just shows whats on the scope, like read-only...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: oaliey on November 14, 2014, 02:41:21 am
There was a note on the outside of my box that I got from emona telling me to download everything from the national instruments website. They must already be aware that the included CD contains buggy software and drivers

edit: Just re-read the note, it seems it only asks you to download the drivers. Here is the included text:
edit2: Unsurprisingly the driver file is not the first result, I believe this is a direct link to currently most recent driver: NI-VISA 5.4.1 (http://www.ni.com/download/ni-visa-5.4.1/4626/en/)

IMPORTANT NOTICE!
USB drivers for Rigol Oscilloscopes, Function Generators and Spectrum Analyzers

In order to utilize your Rigol unit with the Ultrascope, UltraStation, UltraSpectrum or Ultra Signal Studio software, you will need to download the appropriate NI VISA USB drivers for your oscilloscope from the National Instruments web site:

After the computer has been rebooted, you can connect your oscilloscope to the PC via USB and switch on your oscilloscope. Your PC should automatically detect your scope and install the appropriate driver files.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Nonorthogonal on November 14, 2014, 06:59:56 am
Here's a website for those of you who just want to take screenshots and issue SCPI commands. This is all I do from Windows so this 3rd party solution is terrific.

http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkL on November 14, 2014, 09:18:13 am
Got an email from Tequipment that my DS1054Z is shipping yesterday, Oct 12!

But wait, in the same email, the free gift AC detector isn't shipping until tomorrow, Oct 14.  And the order is by default marked as "ship complete".  So that's holding up the shipment.

Doh!  Thanks for the free gift!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 14, 2014, 10:00:09 am
Got an email from Tequipment that my DS1054Z is shipping yesterday, Oct 12!

Are they shipping it via TARDIS?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkL on November 14, 2014, 10:08:15 am
Got an email from Tequipment that my DS1054Z is shipping yesterday, Oct 12!

Are they shipping it via TARDIS?

If that's the case, they could ship me something really great from the future like a 100 channel scope with brain link-up.

But I'm guessing they only discovered today they ran out of the freebies.  Oops.

Quote
From: orderstatus@Tequipment.NET
Subject: Tequipment.NET OrderStatus Update - Order# xxxxx
Date: 13 Nov 2014 15:50:31 -0500

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Qty  Product Name                      Status                                                     
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 1  RIGOLDS1054Z
       50 MHz Digital Oscilloscope wi    1 To Be Shipped On 11/12/2014*

 1  SANTRONICSAC-EZ
       AC Voltage Sensor - 50-1000 VA    1 To Be Shipped On 11/14/2014*  (Old Estimate: 11/11/2014)

* Your order is marked "Ship Complete Only"
  Partial shipments available upon request for an additional fee per shipment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 14, 2014, 10:49:29 am
Quality - I have been impressed with the way the Rigol comes as a package here in Australia. For those not aware -

The unit was double boxed, 2ply cardboard on the outside, 3ply on the inside box with foam inserts at either end.
A quickstart guide in paper - not the "Here is the CD manual, go find a PC to read it on".
Four probes - they could have skimped here and given two probes and go find the other two yourself.
A real Australian IEC power lead, with finger guards on the pins.
USB Cable.
CD with software Dave has had a run-in with this, I haven't tried it yet.
The little note on the outside about the NI drivers that Oaliey pointed out above (Nice support Emona :-+)

Very nice Emona and Rigol!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on November 14, 2014, 11:32:36 am
Got an email from Tequipment that my DS1054Z is shipping yesterday, Oct 12!

But wait, in the same email, the free gift AC detector isn't shipping until tomorrow, Oct 14.  And the order is by default marked as "ship complete".  So that's holding up the shipment.

Doh!  Thanks for the free gift!
Same here.

Seems my order has primarily been held up by some Weller soldering iron tips I ordered that TEquipment isn't stocking.  :-// Delay on the Weller crap they had to wait on apparently has caused the free gift to run out to get the rest of mine shipped today (rest of the order has 11/13 listed as it's estimated ship date).  |O

Funnily enough, the 2x tips they had in stock, they sent out yesterday, and got the tracking info today.  :wtf: So are they going to send out 3x packages or make we wait even longer to toss in the free gift?  :-//  :rant:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: John South on November 14, 2014, 12:48:26 pm
Hi - Just a quick note on Ultrascope for the "Z" series scopes. This uses UltraSigma so you have to install this first then Ultrascope (downloadable from rigolna.com) .

It is an early version and functions differently than Ultrascope for DS1000E products. 

To access it you run UltraSigma which should then pick up the DS "Z" connected. Right click on this and you will see a menu with Ultrascope .
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 14, 2014, 02:20:41 pm
The scope is very noisy to my taste. Anyone knows a quieter replacement fan or at least dimensions of the mounting holes?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on November 14, 2014, 02:28:28 pm
What is the latest firmware for the 1000z? And where can you get it? 

I hate the way they are so dogey with getting the latest updates.   
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on November 14, 2014, 02:39:13 pm
What is the latest firmware for the 1000z? And where can you get it? 

I hate the way they are so dogey with getting the latest updates.
According to the Firmware Upgrade Request (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0002/1/1579:p-000d/-/%7B%7BEnv.SrcId%7D%7D/%7B%7BEnv.RecId%7D%7D/index.htm/) page on their US website, the latest firmware for the DS/MSO1000Z/-S family is 00.04.01 as of the 25th of August, 2014.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 14, 2014, 02:54:41 pm
The scope is very noisy to my taste. Anyone knows a quieter replacement fan or at least dimensions of the mounting holes?

The fan is 50x50x15mm.

Further info here: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/recommendations-for-replacement-fans-for-mso1074z/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/recommendations-for-replacement-fans-for-mso1074z/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 14, 2014, 03:00:34 pm
OMG how bad is Rigol's software for the DS1054Z (and others)?  |O
UltraVision driver is buggy and bloated.
UltraScope doesn't even come on the CD included!, and when I install it I can't even find it  :-BROKE
 :rant:

Do you have one with the software?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 14, 2014, 04:26:19 pm
So support said that mine will get shipped out next or next next week, but, lo and behold, it shipped out today! And the best part? It should get here tomorrow (20 ish hours at most)! So, well, that was a rather pleasant surprise  :-+

But, has anyone updated the firmware to the most recent one and got the upgrade hack to work?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 14, 2014, 04:28:22 pm
It will come with the current firmware, and yes, the 'hack' will still work.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Micael on November 14, 2014, 06:40:19 pm
Quality - I have been impressed with the way the Rigol comes as a package here in Australia. For those not aware -

The unit was double boxed, 2ply cardboard on the outside, 3ply on the inside box with foam inserts at either end.
A quickstart guide in paper - not the "Here is the CD manual, go find a PC to read it on".
Four probes - they could have skimped here and given two probes and go find the other two yourself.
A real Australian IEC power lead, with finger guards on the pins.
USB Cable.
CD with software Dave has had a run-in with this, I haven't tried it yet.
The little note on the outside about the NI drivers that Oaliey pointed out above (Nice support Emona :-+)

Very nice Emona and Rigol!

My DP832 also comes packaged like that, so I assume that's how they generally pack their products, which is pretty good, considering how their products are in the lower end price wise.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TMM on November 14, 2014, 09:27:13 pm
Received mine today from Emona. All options installed except 500uV thanks to Riglol :-+

Drivers and software works fine for me (on Win7 64bit). Bloated maybe, but work flawlessly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xnaron on November 15, 2014, 02:47:52 am
Jitter problems!  Hopefully these problems can be fixed in firmware.  Might want to hold off on buying these scopes until we find out if this is a hardware or firmware issue. Too late for me though :(


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcOdzFaIYNE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcOdzFaIYNE)

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/)


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MadDog on November 15, 2014, 02:56:47 am
I have checked my MSO1104Z: Problems with DC Coupling and heavy problems witch AC Coupling.
Fortunately I'm still within the 30 days money back guarantee. So I'll send this thing back.
I don't trust that I'll get a fix by a chinese company. If they solve the problem I can buy a new one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xnaron on November 15, 2014, 02:58:48 am
I have checked my MSO1104Z: Problems with DC Coupling and heavy problems witch AC Coupling.
Fortunately I'm still within the 30 days money back guarantee. So I'll send this thing back.
I don't trust that I'll get a fix by a chinese company. If they solve the problem I can buy a new one.

Good plan  I think the others who bought here might want to do the same.  That will send a clear message to Rigol to fix it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MadDog on November 15, 2014, 03:01:12 am
Yes, I can live with the problem with DC Coupling, but the behavior with AC Coupling is horrible.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xnaron on November 15, 2014, 03:45:28 am
I knew I shouldn't have used the shipping box for my 1054z to ship out the 1052e I sold on ebay :(  Hopefully they can fix the issue with firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkL on November 15, 2014, 04:30:19 am
Ok, TEquipment, you watch this thread.  What is your and Rigol's response on the jitter issues?

I've learned long ago, especially on test gear, that what you see right now is what you're buying.  Never buy anything with bugs you know you can't live with.

If it can't be addressed within your return window I'll be returning my scope, or canceling my order if it hasn't shipped yet.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 15, 2014, 05:47:55 am
The AC coupling jitter seems to be quite the serious issue.
I really wonder, how nobody noticed this scince the scopes release, considering how friggin popular the scope accually is. Expecially considering that the DS2000 series shows the same issues.
P.S. Do the problems only manifest starting some freqeuncy? Checked with a 10kHz sqare wave  and AC coupling seemed to be working fine. Couldn't really go further than that given that my signal gen (crap 20$ ebay stuff) seemed to introduce a boatload of jitter itself (atleast that's what I was lead to belive by the scopes DC coupling mode).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on November 15, 2014, 06:17:32 am
Hello!  Like everyone I saw the video today that Dave posted on the scopes. Rigol is looking into the issue right now and will have an update as soon as they investigate.  This issue will get attention.  Rigol is an excellent company to work with and will post an update shortly.
Thanks
Evan
TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBay on November 15, 2014, 06:18:59 am
Hello!  Like everyone I saw the video today that Dave posted on the scopes. Rigol is looking into the issue right now and will have an update as soon as they investigate.  This issue will get attention.  Rigol is an excellent company to work with and will post an update shortly.
Thanks
Evan
TEquipment.NET

Thanks for posting this here and await the feedback :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on November 15, 2014, 06:25:40 am
The AC coupling jitter seems to be quite the serious issue.
I really wonder, how nobody noticed this scince the scopes release, considering how friggin popular the scope accually is. Expecially considering that the DS2000 series shows the same issues.
I rarely use AC coupling but I had in the past using my DS2072

Here is on a pulse trigger
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/converting-15khz-analog-rgb-to-digital/?action=dlattach;attach=97039;image)

And here on an edge trigger

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/converting-15khz-analog-rgb-to-digital/?action=dlattach;attach=97035;image)

Granted, they are only 15KHz vertical sync but I could zoom in to particular horizontal lines at 5us divisions:
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/converting-15khz-analog-rgb-to-digital/?action=dlattach;attach=97047;image)

Then again I haven't upgraded my firmware for almost a year. (i.e. no CAN bus decoding)

I'll try to run some tests later on at home. But I didn't find any jitter on either AC or DC coupling.

Here it was at 10ns DC coupling edge trigger 24.15 MHz signal.

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/crystal-oscillator-with-logic-gates-implemented-on-a-psoc-chip-possible/?action=dlattach;attach=113593;image)

I wonder if the problem was introduced later or I was just lucky to never have found the jitter since I have my scope (about 10 months I believe)

Edit: but those AC frames are stopped captures but I "think" I did look at them free running as well and no jitter but I will have to try again to make sure.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dr.diesel on November 15, 2014, 06:27:46 am


Quote from: tequipment on Today at 04:17:32 PM (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=36920.msg550426#msg550426)
Rigol is an excellent company to work with and will post an update shortly.



First time I've ever heard this.  Rigol has been completely ignoring the 4000 series issues (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 15, 2014, 07:29:26 am
The AC coupling jitter seems to be quite the serious issue.
I really wonder, how nobody noticed this scince the scopes release, considering how friggin popular the scope accually is. Expecially considering that the DS2000 series shows the same issues.

I rarely use AC coupling but I had in the past using my DS2072

You pictures show AC vertical coupling but the problem is with AC trigger coupling which confusingly the Rigols do not display.

Quote
I wonder if the problem was introduced later or I was just lucky to never have found the jitter since I have my scope (about 10 months I believe)

The jitter the other oscilloscopes are showing is in the nanosecond to 10s of nanosecond range which is significant enough to be a real problem but not something which would be seen at slower time/div settings; at 5us/div it should not be visible.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 15, 2014, 07:37:16 am
Just got my scope in less than 24 hours from when it was shipped from teq, I am nothing short of thrilled! A friend bought a Siglent scope at the same time as me and just got his yesterday (though his shipped out before yesterday if I recall). You guys at teq are awesome!

I didn't notice anything about the jitter yet though, but I can't test it for now untill I get my bench cleaned up.

(http://i.imgur.com/Dh99jy0l.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/Dh99jy0.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/Dh99jy0.jpg)

On an unrelated note, I got my boards back from OSH! The drill registration seems alarmingly off in places though, so I will have to check it under my microscope tomorrow.

(http://i.imgur.com/iV1dVQrl.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/iV1dVQr.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/iV1dVQr.jpg)

Edit: Apologies about the terribly over sized pictures. Added them as links instead of in lined images.
Edit 2: Added smaller inlined images.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Doridian on November 15, 2014, 04:08:09 pm
Does anyone know how I would go about obtaining a DS1054Z in Germany? Is it available anywhere right now?
All I checked have really weird delivery times specified. Some say a week, then on request say 3. Others say more than 3 weeks...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on November 15, 2014, 04:15:06 pm
>I'll try to run some tests later on at home. But I didn't find any jitter on either AC or DC coupling.

NOTE: This jitter issue has to do with the AC TRIGGERING, and NOT regular AC Input COUPLING.

I use AC Coupling all the time when working with audio or rf signals,  but I have never used the AC Triggering function.


I think lots of people are thinking this jitter issue has to do with the very common function of switching your input to the AC coupling mode that is very common to use, and that is incorrect.  This happens only if you use the AC Triggering feature, which personally I am not totally sure when you would even need to use.

I just wanted to make sure everyone understood the difference.  It appears that lots of people are getting the impression about this jitter that Dave was talking about, was an issue with just using AC input coupling and it is not.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 15, 2014, 05:42:12 pm
Thanks for clearing that up, now i kinda get why it wasn't noticed until now. Not sure if I would ever have a use for the AC triggering function anyway, didn't even realise the scope had such a feature.  :phew:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on November 15, 2014, 06:28:22 pm
Does anyone know how I would go about obtaining a DS1054Z in Germany? Is it available anywhere right now?
All I checked have really weird delivery times specified. Some say a week, then on request say 3. Others say more than 3 weeks...

Tequipment is 6-7 weeks (quoted). I'm guessing that everyone placing orders will be waiting. Even so compared to 30 years ago this is nothing. I wonder what it would have cost in 1985?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBay on November 15, 2014, 08:19:50 pm
>I'll try to run some tests later on at home. But I didn't find any jitter on either AC or DC coupling.

NOTE: This jitter issue has to do with the AC TRIGGERING, and NOT regular AC Input COUPLING.

I use AC Coupling all the time when working with audio or rf signals,  but I have never used the AC Triggering function.


I think lots of people are thinking this jitter issue has to do with the very common function of switching your input to the AC coupling mode that is very common to use, and that is incorrect.  This happens only if you use the AC Triggering feature, which personally I am not totally sure when you would even need to use.

I just wanted to make sure everyone understood the difference.  It appears that lots of people are getting the impression about this jitter that Dave was talking about, was an issue with just using AC input coupling and it is not.
You raise a VERY valid point. Watching the icons on the display I see it is indeed the AC Trigger mode selected from the triggering menu. I was testing mine from selecting AC coupling from the input menu. Hence no issue on my DS2702.  The menus are different on the 1000z so didn't notice this at first.

Never used AC triggering before. I Do use AC coupling.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Retep on November 15, 2014, 08:39:17 pm
Does anyone know how I would go about obtaining a DS1054Z in Germany? Is it available anywhere right now?
All I checked have really weird delivery times specified. Some say a week, then on request say 3. Others say more than 3 weeks...
Batronix would be the obvious place for you to go to, but as you said they won't be able to deliver it anytime soon. I doubt you find any shop in Germany or the EU for that matter that has these units in stock.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: electr_peter on November 15, 2014, 09:37:13 pm
Does anyone know how I would go about obtaining a DS1054Z in Germany? Is it available anywhere right now?
All I checked have really weird delivery times specified. Some say a week, then on request say 3. Others say more than 3 weeks...
Batronix would be the obvious place for you to go to, but as you said they won't be able to deliver it anytime soon. I doubt you find any shop in Germany or the EU for that matter that has these units in stock.
Batronix will have some scopes on December ~8-10.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Doridian on November 16, 2014, 12:02:05 pm
Does anyone know how I would go about obtaining a DS1054Z in Germany? Is it available anywhere right now?
All I checked have really weird delivery times specified. Some say a week, then on request say 3. Others say more than 3 weeks...
Batronix would be the obvious place for you to go to, but as you said they won't be able to deliver it anytime soon. I doubt you find any shop in Germany or the EU for that matter that has these units in stock.
Batronix will have some scopes on December ~8-10.

Damnit :( Guess I'll have to wait. Or buy a DS1074Z, but that would be quite a waste of money :/
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 19, 2014, 04:04:40 pm
Mine arrived today. Impressive packaging, the UPS gorilla couldn't hurt this. Initial turn-on found all the options were enabled for 36 hours?? Didn't know about that. Calibration date in China was 11/01/2014 per warranty sheet. A very solid feeling piece of equipment.

As I work mainly with RF I was wondering about the bandwidth available.I set up my signal generator to -40dBm and started at 10 MHz. Scope showed RMS level of 47mv. 50 MHz dropped to 39.1mv. 100 MHz down to 29.5mv. So I stretched it out to 400 MHz, down to 5mv. Not a large signal but visible and actually could be usable. The freq counter quit abt 100 MHz. All measurement were taken without changing any settings.

Now I have to start looking for a printed manual, it comes with a quick start guide which is basically useless since what it covers is all intuitive if you've ever used a scope. Plus the front half is in chinese. It's when you start getting into the menus my trouble started. A flow chart would be very nice. Since I deal with RF using an analog scope a lot of the items are greek to me. Maneuvering around in the menus is an exercise in getting lost, at least for me. "Now just where did I see that option to set the probe divide by ratio???" I've seen it twice.  :-//

Overall a very nice piece of equipment but for me the learning curve is going to be steep, at least to use the functions I can use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on November 19, 2014, 04:23:05 pm
Use the help button on a given menu and it will tell you what the buttons do on that menu. Press the help menu again to exit from the help mode.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 19, 2014, 04:50:35 pm
Quote
"Now just where did I see that option to set the probe divide by ratio???" I've seen it twice.  :-//
Press the active channel button to get that channel's menus on screen.
Then select the appropriate attenuation setting to match your probe.
Set each channel as required.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 19, 2014, 04:53:52 pm
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 19, 2014, 05:17:32 pm
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???
Not conversent with Rigols, but there should be a "Clear" or similar in the Measure menus
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 19, 2014, 05:53:43 pm
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???

You.. basically can't. You can push them off the screen, or remove all of them (sort of), but not individually remove them. At least not via any obvious method I've found.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on November 19, 2014, 06:17:28 pm
Now I have to start looking for a printed manual, it comes with a quick start guide which is basically useless since what it covers is all intuitive if you've ever used a scope.
There's a User Manual.pdf available (PM sent).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 21, 2014, 12:18:28 am
I just got mine yesterday.   :)

There's a user manual on the CD that comes with the unit.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 21, 2014, 02:19:39 am
Makes sense, I just didn't dig out the CD. Figured it was the PC software, DUH...

 :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Edgar Amalyan on November 21, 2014, 05:33:42 pm
I'm guessing the 1054Z is the recommended device to get for a first scope? I could spend more $ if it would be better in the long run for a computer engineering student, as long as it's not some ridiculous Agilent that costs more than 2k. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on November 21, 2014, 05:46:44 pm
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???

You.. basically can't. You can push them off the screen, or remove all of them (sort of), but not individually remove them. At least not via any obvious method I've found.

It's not obvious and I think it's a bug but here's how:

1) Measure --> Clear --> All Items

This will take them all off the display but if you turn any one back on the old ones will appear grayed out.  So, don't do that, instead:

2) Turn off the 'scope and turn it back on again.

Now add a measurement item and it will appear all by itself left-justified on the bottom line.

-Katie
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 21, 2014, 05:50:36 pm
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???

You.. basically can't. You can push them off the screen, or remove all of them (sort of), but not individually remove them. At least not via any obvious method I've found.

It's not obvious and I think it's a bug but here's how:

1) Measure --> Clear --> All Items

This will take them all off the display but if you turn any one back on the old ones will appear grayed out.

That would be the 'sort of' bit, yes.

Quote
So, don't do that, instead:

2) Turn off the 'scope and turn it back on again.

Now add a measurement item and it will appear all by itself left-justified on the bottom line.

-Katie

Because power cycling is obviously the right way to do things..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 21, 2014, 06:02:37 pm
Because power cycling is obviously the right way to do things..
NO
If you Clear them they should be gone. Full Stop.
If power cycling is needed it is indeed a BUG
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 21, 2014, 06:03:50 pm
Because power cycling is obviously the right way to do things..
NO
If you Clear them they should be gone. Full Stop.
If power cycling is needed it is indeed a BUG

Sorry, is your sarcasmometer broken?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 21, 2014, 06:30:31 pm
Because power cycling is obviously the right way to do things..
NO
If you Clear them they should be gone. Full Stop.
If power cycling is needed it is indeed a BUG

Sorry, is your sarcasmometer broken?
Fixed now thanks....but not the bug.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on November 21, 2014, 11:55:04 pm
I'm guessing the 1054Z is the recommended device to get for a first scope? I could spend more $ if it would be better in the long run for a computer engineering student, as long as it's not some ridiculous Agilent that costs more than 2k.
The 1054Z currently offers the best 'bang per buck' by a wide margin - although you may want to wait for Dave's review, which is in the pipeline.

If you don't have specific requirements such as greater bandwidth, spending a lot of money now on capabilities you may never need would be a waste of money - particularly since DSO capabilities are still advancing rapidly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 22, 2014, 10:08:41 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/LufJWORl.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/LufJWOR.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/LufJWOR.jpg)

Just got the scope last week and so far have been totally thrilled with it. I still consider myself a newbie with electronics (Dave's AC trigger coupling and how to measure voltage rails with AC input coupling were mind blowing), but this scope has been a monsterous step up from my tek 2213A scope. Just wanted to thank all of you for helping me out in my previous thread, answering my questions here, and the PM's with the eevblog discount code!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on November 23, 2014, 05:41:21 am
Dave's AC trigger coupling and how to measure voltage rails with AC input coupling were mind blowing

You clearly did not use the analog enough ;p
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 23, 2014, 07:00:32 am
Dave's AC trigger coupling and how to measure voltage rails with AC input coupling were mind blowing.

You clearly did not use the analog enough ;p

The 2213A does not even support AC coupled internal triggering because it has peak-to-peak triggering which is superior. :)

I miss peak-to-peak triggering.  It was replaced with automatic level triggering which is slower.  Based on their documentation, I do not think the Rigols support either.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 23, 2014, 12:05:44 pm
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???

You.. basically can't. You can push them off the screen, or remove all of them (sort of), but not individually remove them. At least not via any obvious method I've found.

It's not obvious and I think it's a bug but here's how:

1) Measure --> Clear --> All Items

This will take them all off the display but if you turn any one back on the old ones will appear grayed out.  So, don't do that, instead:

2) Turn off the 'scope and turn it back on again.

Now add a measurement item and it will appear all by itself left-justified on the bottom line.

-Katie

There is no bug. Whether you like it or not, it's just a feature Rigol has implemented to try to offer easier access to often-used measurements without having to, for example, page through 4 menus while trying to locate a specific Vertical or Horizontal measurement for a second time in a session.

You delete individual measurements by using Measure -> Clear -> ItemX -> Delete

It will then grey-out that measurement, and you can use  Measure -> Clear -> ItemX -> Recover  to restore it if you want. If you add new measurements, the greyed-out ones will slowly be pushed off screen.

This system means that you can get back quickly to a measurement you previously used during the current session, if you've cleared the screen of the bottom measurements for awhile.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 23, 2014, 12:17:04 pm
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???

You.. basically can't. You can push them off the screen, or remove all of them (sort of), but not individually remove them. At least not via any obvious method I've found.

It's not obvious and I think it's a bug but here's how:

1) Measure --> Clear --> All Items

This will take them all off the display but if you turn any one back on the old ones will appear grayed out.  So, don't do that, instead:

2) Turn off the 'scope and turn it back on again.

Now add a measurement item and it will appear all by itself left-justified on the bottom line.

-Katie

There is no bug. Whether you like it or not, it's just a feature Rigol has implemented to try to offer easier access to often-used measurements without having to, for example, page through 4 menus while trying to locate a specific Vertical or Horizontal measurement for a second time in a session.

You delete individual measurements by using Measure -> Clear -> ItemX -> Delete

It will then grey-out that measurement, and you can use  Measure -> Clear -> ItemX -> Recover  to restore it if you want. If you add new measurements, the greyed-out ones will slowly be pushed off screen.

This system means that you can get back quickly to a measurement you previously used during the current session, if you've cleared the screen of the bottom measurements for awhile.

Sorry, but that's stupid.

If I wanted to hide the measurements, I'd pick an option called 'hide measurements'. Not 'clear' which for some reason actually means 'leave all the text there just change the colour and don't display a value'.

It's an utterly crap bit of 'UI', not a feature.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 23, 2014, 01:02:05 pm
Sorry, but that's stupid.

If I wanted to hide the measurements, I'd pick an option called 'hide measurements'. Not 'clear' which for some reason actually means 'leave all the text there just change the colour and don't display a value'.

It's an utterly crap bit of 'UI', not a feature.

Again, regardless of your well-articulated opinion, it's not a bug.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 23, 2014, 01:02:53 pm
Sorry, but that's stupid.

If I wanted to hide the measurements, I'd pick an option called 'hide measurements'. Not 'clear' which for some reason actually means 'leave all the text there just change the colour and don't display a value'.

It's an utterly crap bit of 'UI', not a feature.

Again, regardless of your well-articulated opinion, it's not a bug.

In your opinion.

If not a bug in the scope, a bug in the UI designer's head. It's a daft non-function which may as well be replaced with a single button marked 'hide'.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 23, 2014, 01:09:36 pm
In your opinion.

If not a bug in the scope, a bug in the UI designer's head.

In your opinion.

BTW, the DS2000 has the same feature, except on the DS2000, the measurement actually fully disappears (not greyed-out), although you can still recover it by using  Measure -> Clear -> ItemX -> Recover. The problem is, after awhile, you can't remember what the measurement was anymore, so the recover feature becomes less useful. I prefer the implementation on the DS1000Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on November 23, 2014, 01:12:44 pm
I don't find the UI for that confusing at all in my DS2000 series.

So not a bug (in my opinion)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 23, 2014, 01:13:08 pm
With this implementation you may as well just leave it turned on..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 23, 2014, 05:34:04 pm
Why not just suggest they do it the most logical way to me. One push turns on a measurement. Next push turns it off. Push once read the RMS Value, push again to turn it off. How hard can that be to do? Spoken from the viewpoint of a non-software writer.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 23, 2014, 05:59:13 pm
Why not just suggest they do it the most logical way to me. One push turns on a measurement. Next push turns it off. Push once read the RMS Value, push again to turn it off. How hard can that be to do? Spoken from the viewpoint of a non-software writer.

Again, some of the measurements are 4 menus away. That means you have to wade through to the precise measurement again to turn it off / on.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 24, 2014, 02:17:30 am
Pretty sure there are a lot of cases when you just want to see a measurment value of a signal and afterwards you don't need it. In that case one would just push to turn it on, and push it again after a second to turn it back off. So yeah, that would be kinda nice.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 24, 2014, 03:35:01 am
Pretty sure there are a lot of cases when you just want to see a measurment value of a signal and afterwards you don't need it. In that case one would just push to turn it on, and push it again after a second to turn it back off. So yeah, that would be kinda nice.

I certainly agree that would be handy - but I'd prefer it as an added behavior, as opposed to replacing the Delete/Recover feature.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 24, 2014, 08:17:26 am
That's true. I never suggested it to replace the current system, just think it would be a nice addition.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 25, 2014, 12:55:28 am
The earliest Tektronix DSOs with automatic measurements have a similar problem with the user interface although all of their measurements are accessible from one menu.  In order to replace or remove a measurement, the identical measurement has to be selected from the menu using cursor keys (and no up key!), turned off, and then another may be added to the end of the list.  This made sense since they had a very limited number of soft keys.  I do not remember how their later DSOs with measurements distributed across multiple menus handled this.

I would prefer some way to highlight the existing measurement instead of going through the menus to selecting it again.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Chryseus on November 25, 2014, 02:00:06 am
Got an email from Batronix:

Quote from: Batronix
On 21st October you have ordered a Rigol DS1054Z.

Herewith, we would like to inform you that your requested device is not available yet.

At the moment, we are waiting on two deliveries from Rigol for this device. The estimated time of arrival for the first delivery lies between December 8th - 12th. The second delivery approximately at the end of January.

Due to your position in our waiting list, you will receive a device from the first delivery.

We are apologising for this delay. The demand for this devise is unexpectedly high. Rigol itself can currently not manufacture as many devises as needed at the moment.

If the time of waiting is too long for you, you are welcome to choose a similar product from this series. We grant you a 8% discount because of the special circumstances.

Best regards,

Thorsten Schliszio

Being in the second delivery would suck.  :phew:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on November 25, 2014, 02:15:14 am

There is no bug. Whether you like it or not, it's just a feature Rigol has implemented to try to offer easier access to often-used measurements without having to, for example, page through 4 menus while trying to locate a specific Vertical or Horizontal measurement for a second time in a session.


If you're correct and Rigol intended it to work this way than surely power cycling once cleared should not remove all measurements from the display so that they lose their greyed-out status.   I'd say it's a bug one way or another.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 25, 2014, 02:19:10 am
If you're correct and Rigol intended it to work this way than surely power cycling once cleared should not remove all measurements from the display so that they lose their greyed-out status.   I'd say it's a bug one way or another.

I don't see any bug in the behavior.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 25, 2014, 02:46:55 am
Quote from: Batronix
We are apologising for this delay. The demand for this devise is unexpectedly high.
Are they seriously suggesting they didn't see this comming? It's probably the best bang-for-buck scope ever made... Can't see any other reason to release the scope at such a price without the intention of turing the whole market upside down.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 25, 2014, 04:25:32 am
Quote from: Batronix
We are apologising for this delay. The demand for this devise is unexpectedly high.
Are they seriously suggesting they didn't see this comming? It's probably the best bang-for-buck scope ever made... Can't see any other reason to release the scope at such a price without the intention of turing the whole market upside down.

I would expect availability to be impacted if they are expecting to recall oscilloscopes because of serious problems unless they want to pay even more to repair them under warranty.  Or they might sell them anyway knowing that most users will not notice before the warranty expires.

How does the DS1000Z series measure up in bugs-for-buck? :)

Hopefully all of the current DS1000Z issues can be fixed with firmware updates.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 25, 2014, 06:38:47 am
How does the DS1000Z series measure up in bugs-for-buck? :)
Probably a lot better than most other budget scopes (I'm looking at siglent, hantek, owon etc.). And if your talking about the AC triggering issue: people have been using the DS2000 series scopes for two or three years now (don't remember exact year of it's release) without issues and whining about it. So I'm pretty sure the importance of the bug is severely exaggerated. Sure it's a bit of a nuisance but it sure as hell isn't the worst bug scopes have had.
Comparing the scope to an Agilent or a Tektronix counterpart would be a bit unfair considering the vast price difference, not even taking into account the fact that even they have their own issues.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 25, 2014, 07:50:40 am
How does the DS1000Z series measure up in bugs-for-buck? :)
Probably a lot better than most other budget scopes (I'm looking at siglent, hantek, owon etc.). And if your talking about the AC triggering issue: people have been using the DS2000 series scopes for two or three years now (don't remember exact year of it's release) without issues and whining about it. So I'm pretty sure the importance of the bug is severely exaggerated. Sure it's a bit of a nuisance but it sure as hell isn't the worst bug scopes have had.
Comparing the scope to an Agilent or a Tektronix counterpart would be a bit unfair considering the vast price difference, not even taking into account the fact that even they have their own issues.
So your tolerance to bugs is price related?
For a piece of test equipment......seriously?

People rightly expect these things to be accurate, their designs and projects rely on it.
Looks like one releases "supposedly" completed gear on the market hopeing that many won't or can't recognise its shortcomings....seems like the modern marketing way.  :palm:
The worry is OUR tolerance to this and the ongoing diminishment of OUR expectations of PRECISION equipment.
Statements like Probably a lot better than most other budget scopes (I'm looking at siglent, hantek, owon etc.). This does not help expectations (owners or manufacturers) and is wildly incorrect.

Siglent's SDS2000 series was ALWAYS identified as "a work in progress"....it still is.
But it suffers NO jitter at any timebase, any delay settings, and whether DC or AC .
Siglent have always been proactive and transparent to improve their products and their regular EEVblog participation is proof of this.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on November 25, 2014, 08:05:58 am
NZ Siglent Distributor...... :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on November 25, 2014, 08:20:37 am
tautech, could you predict the results of the poll about how many rigol users would know about this if it wasn't for people tinkering with everything.

measuring is not tinkering with everything.

creep is correct, there is a fair amount of exaggeration going on here...

now we have all sorts of bugs
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dso-trigger-position-offset-w-ac-coupled-trggering-ds2000-mso1000/msg557017/#msg557017 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dso-trigger-position-offset-w-ac-coupled-trggering-ds2000-mso1000/msg557017/#msg557017)



but will that prevent me from using the scope?
nope.

perhaps i'll find some more, but...heh....none of these bugs is really "into your face" type of bug...

tell me about alternatives in that price range?
Siglent SDS1102CML ?
memory depth?

also, when did this
Quote
Rigol itself can currently not manufacture as many devises as needed at the moment.
happen last time in the world of dsos?

here's the deal: that scope is excellent value for money even if they never fix any of the bugs reported.
now, how will you prove me wrong?
you'll suggest we all need ac trig and absolute precision when scrolling thru the 'live' waveform?
meh...
i can't even mention the third thing i linked above, it's just too silly....

we should all report these bugs (or better to say emind ourselves of them) when we bump into them while using the scope for a purpose (not just play), then it would all seem a bit different...heh...

again, rigol should correct it, but these are small bugs for most of us.
and others will probaby have a 'proper' ( ;D ) scoep to check against.

Quote
People rightly expect these things to be accurate, their designs and projects rely on it.
i don't expect perfection in any human or any machine humans make.
is there a better scope for 350eur?
see?

bert
Quote
NZ Siglent Distributor......
>:(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Simon on November 25, 2014, 08:38:27 am
I slightly miss the better quality of my old rigol versus my new 200MHz owon where basically they decided to throw the kitchen sink at it but for quality. It's "auto display" function that is basically the crude equivalent of the auto function that worked perfectly on my rigol is a peice if shit as it slowly and mechanically cycles through all of the settings and it does not even work so it's far easier to do it manually.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 25, 2014, 09:02:33 am
Did I slag Rigol?   NO
Did I question value for money?   NO
Did I offer a comparable product as better?   NO

BTW there are further bugs revealed in the last day or so.

My argument is of the reduction in quality (irrespective of price) of some lower cost test equipment in general. Should we continue to suffer this?
Once upon a time we shunned new gear knowing there WILL be problems in early versions.
This applied to all manner of product; cars, tractors, trucks, chainsaws .......
So it seems there is a much increased tolerance of acceptance of unfinished/incomplete products in the marketplace.  :palm:
Well not from me.  :--
Seriously this is a worrying trend, one I'm sure manufacturers have great delight in exploiting.

Quote
NZ Siglent Distributor
I have never hidden this fact, when I registered here I posted my website link for all to see but it seems that was not enough to keep everybody happy.
Much later I was PM'ed by a Moderator and asked to show my affiliation plainly in my posts.
Out of respect of the Forum I happily complied.
If one cares to look at my contribution you will see the majority has been general electronics related as is my passion for electronics.
If one only knew how many manufacturers/suppliers were members you'd all be shocked.
Not all openly reveal their affiliations.
So frown/angry? Really?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Simon on November 25, 2014, 09:09:46 am
Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 25, 2014, 09:27:32 am
Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.
Very true, but some don't understand that compromises in design like a 1 Gsa/s ADC shared by 4 channels will result in substandard performance.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on November 25, 2014, 09:35:24 am

Seriously this is a worrying trend, one I'm sure manufacturers have great delight in exploiting.


If one cares to look at my contribution you will see the majority has been general electronics related as is my passion for electronics.
If one only knew how many manufacturers/suppliers were members you'd all be shocked.


i would just like people to discuss the problems they had with a particular piece of gear, 'politics' aside.
i dunno if we (thus far) saw a report where any rigol bug was a make it or break it type of problem when scoping(?)
i don't see these bugs as such an  important issues.
those who do can try moneyback or simillar strategies....if firmware upadate doesn't fix it etc.

to me it's enough i know about them and i know how they affect measuring.
so i can "compensate" even if they never make new firmware OR if i never apply it even if they make it...

so if anybody asked me what scope to buy at this price range, there still is no issue this is the best-buy at the moment.
we'll know if/when somebody beats rigol in this field...field they just created with this scope...heh...technology to the people....cheaply  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 25, 2014, 10:02:09 am
Don't know about you guys but I can live with a few bugs as long as I'm aware of their existance and they are not random. As someone before me on this forum used to say: knowladge of the drawbacks of our equipment let's us work around those drawbacks if we keep them in our minds. If I know AC triggering has issues, fine, I just won't use it. If I know turning some option (hopefully not too usefull) on causes a crash (think I heard something like this about a hantek function gen or something simillar), fine, I just won't do it. Most of the time it's a problem only in cases you are not aware of it and don't take it into account.
Ofcourse that's just my take on it as an EE student, pretty sure professional engineers have different opinion on the matter and that's why they use agilent and tektronix products.
I totally understand tautech's mindset and point of view, but atleast for me if I had to choose between the current rigol scope (DS1054Z) as it is or one that has gone through intense QC and found and fixed most of the bugs but because of that increased the price by say 200 EUR, I would chose the former option without much thought.
It's a great scope for the beginners and they can usually live with the mall details and faults. The more advanced users that are also more picky can just look for higher class equipment.
I'm all for increased software quality as long as it doesn't result in a substantial increase in price, otherwise there is no point of the whole hobby segment and people may as well get the non-china branded equipment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on November 25, 2014, 10:25:07 am
Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.
Very true, but some don't understand that compromises in design like a 1 Gsa/s ADC shared by 4 channels will result in substandard performance.
Substandard compared with what? A 1 Gsa/s ADC is the standard and four channels is twice the standard at this price point and some way above it. Building any piece of test gear involves compromises, and knowing the limitations of your equipment is essential at any level.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 25, 2014, 10:35:50 am
Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.
Very true, but some don't understand that compromises in design like a 1 Gsa/s ADC shared by 4 channels will result in substandard performance.
Substandard compared with what? A 1 Gsa/s ADC is the standard and four channels is twice the standard at this price point and some way above it. Building any piece of test gear involves compromises, and knowing the limitations of your equipment is essential at any level.
In the Siglent range for example ONLY the budget/entry level models have less tha 1 Gsa/a ADC's.
As Simon says  :-DD you get what you pay for
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on November 25, 2014, 12:53:37 pm
but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes.
Bugs can occur in all R&D regardless of how much money you spend on it and I would expect Rigol to reuse a fair amount of C/VHDL/Verilog between their product lines' FPGAs and SoCs since most features are fundamentally the same regardless of the GUI and PCB layout.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 25, 2014, 12:55:16 pm
So, hypothetically - say Rigol can fix the problem with the DZ1054Z by re flashing the firmware but after which you will lose the ability to hack the firmware.

Would you trade off the hackability for a jitter/trigger fix?

All the whinging aside, I think I'd be reasonably happy with my Rigol in its current state.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 25, 2014, 01:25:34 pm
So, hypothetically - say Rigol can fix the problem with the DZ1054Z by re flashing the firmware but after which you will lose the ability to hack the firmware

If they wanted to make it unhackable, they would have done so already. I'm pretty sure they make it hackable on purpose.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 25, 2014, 01:27:36 pm
So your tolerance to bugs is price related?

Well, yes - for good or bad, that is how most humans think. Tolerance for bugs, manufacturing and feature defects, bad industrial and UI design - those are all things we tend to link to the sticker price.

Quote
Looks like one releases "supposedly" completed gear on the market hopeing that many won't or can't recognise its shortcomings....seems like the modern marketing way.  :palm:

This is certainly true in virtually every market - from cell phones to furniture.

Quote
Siglent's SDS2000 series was ALWAYS identified as "a work in progress"....it still is.

;D  You must be kidding! Is the SDS2000 identified as "a work in progress" in all of the ads listing it for sale in analog or digital media? Even if this was true (which it demonstrably isn't), is that how manufacturers should get around the problem of releasing products too soon (or with possible bugs)? By slapping on a sticker that says, "Work in Progress"?

Quote
But it suffers NO jitter at any timebase, any delay settings, and whether DC or AC .

It suffers a litany of other bugs which are well-documented. It's a matter of subjective opinion as to whether one thinks those bugs are more serious than AC-trigger jitter / offset, etc.

Quote
Siglent have always been proactive and transparent to improve their products and their regular EEVblog participation is proof of this.

Sorry, this does not prove transparency - it just proves the desire to appear transparent (although, granted, it's better than Rigol). In fact, I had questions about possible limitations in terms of the intensity-grading of the SDS2000 a LONG time ago here on the forum - which were never confirmed/addressed by Siglent or any of you Siglent dealers. Once I had my hands on an SDS2000, I confirmed it in a matter of minutes. Now it's known as "a feature in progress".  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 25, 2014, 05:15:50 pm
So, hypothetically - say Rigol can fix the problem with the DZ1054Z by re flashing the firmware but after which you will lose the ability to hack the firmware

If they wanted to make it unhackable, they would have done so already. I'm pretty sure they make it hackable on purpose.

I know and it's not really what I asked... there seems to be a lot of noise here about how bad Rigol is for having such a bug in their 'scope.

But just say you had to choose? What would you do?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 25, 2014, 05:22:09 pm
I personally would leave it as it is right now, nice and "upgraded". For my typical use none of the bugs are a problem. And at that price it already paid for itself in my time that I would otherwise spend debugging problems using  blinking LEDs.

I was not impressed with the fan loudness, so I replaced the fan with a quieter one, voiding the warranty along the way. So no RMA for me, not that I would bother sending it anywhere anyway.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on November 25, 2014, 06:39:38 pm
Rigol, Siglent and Hantek all have sub 400 dollar scopes. I wonder what Siglent and Hantek have planned. Price cuts?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on November 25, 2014, 08:55:04 pm
suicide?  ;D

i already said that i wouldn't upgrade firmware for this, if i'll lose bandwidth...

it is more important than nuances i would probably never even notice....no ac trigger, no trigger point at the end of the universe (  :-DD ) and no need to have perfectly centered sweep....

if you gave me best scope ever, i still don't use these things.
but bandwidth of that best scope?
that i would use!  ;)

i'll repeat again: should be fixed, but even if they don't...no big deal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DavrosTheDalek on November 26, 2014, 12:15:29 am
Hi all!
Finally gonna pull the trigger and order a 1054z end of the week.
Could somebody please send me the Tequipment eevblog discount code? Very much appreciated!

Thanks,
Davros
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 26, 2014, 03:32:25 am
Careful, the DSA815 Spectrum Analyzer has been made un-hackable from reports on here.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 26, 2014, 03:40:54 am
Careful, the DSA815 Spectrum Analyzer has been made un-hackable from reports on here.

Haha, unhackable.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rodcastler on November 27, 2014, 08:36:55 am
Just got mine today. It was intended to replace my DS1102E...... BUT:  I was not convinced right away unfortunately.

I love the features it comes with, lots of interface improvements over the 1102E but it's surprisingly SLOW to refresh any user input.
 
When twisting the knobs to move cursors, or the trigger level or menu navigation, the older 1102E response is instantaneous and at a high frame rate (I'm using wrong terminology all over the place but I hope you get the idea). The new 1054Z is so slow that it becomes VERY frequent to enter wrong commands because you fell short on the selection or went too far. Also, aiming the correct trigger level or a cursor is a pain on this scope only because of the slow response. You can tell from Dave's video when he dials the trigger level.

When using the roll mode, you can easily tell how the line horribly skips pixels (again, can't help but using the FPS terminology to describe this). The 1102E does so much better that I'm not sure if I should even replace it with the new one.

Is there anybody else as annoyed as I am by the user input reaction rate on this scope?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 27, 2014, 09:54:37 am
When twisting the knobs to move cursors, or the trigger level or menu navigation, the older 1102E response is instantaneous and at a high frame rate (I'm using wrong terminology all over the place but I hope you get the idea). The new 1054Z is so slow that it becomes VERY frequent to enter wrong commands because you fell short on the selection or went too far. Also, aiming the correct trigger level or a cursor is a pain on this scope only because of the slow response. You can tell from Dave's video when he dials the trigger level.

Can you be a bit more specific? Do you mean with a single channel on at any timebase? Or multiple channels? My own subjective opinion is that it's fine with 1 channel on, but gets a bit more sluggish with each new channel (or function) added.

Also, the frame rate is a bit irrelevant. At faster timebases, the DS1054Z is capturing MANY more waveforms per second than your DS1102E, which captures a maximum of something like 80 - 200 wfrm/s - while the DS1054Z is capturing like 1000 - 30000 wfrm/s. This means that even if, for example, the DS1102E is refreshing the screen 50 times a second, each refresh contains 1 or 2 new waveforms - while if the DS1054Z is updating the screen 30 times a second, each update contains 30 - 1000 new waveforms.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rodcastler on November 27, 2014, 10:24:27 am
Can you be a bit more specific? Do you mean with a single channel on at any timebase? Or multiple channels? My own subjective opinion is that it's fine with 1 channel on, but gets a bit more sluggish with each new channel (or function) added.
Also, the frame rate is a bit irrelevant. At faster timebases, the DS1054Z is capturing MANY more waveforms per second than your DS1102E, which captures a maximum of something like 80 - 200 wfrm/s - while the DS1054Z is capturing like 1000 - 30000 wfrm/s. This means that even if, for example, the DS1102E is refreshing the screen 50 times a second, each refresh contains 1 or 2 new waveforms - while if the DS1054Z is updating the screen 30 times a second, each update contains 30 - 1000 new waveforms.

I'm testing with a single-channel on any time base. And I'm sure the scope is capturing fine. My complaint is mostly around user interface speed. I also didn't like the smoothness at which the line is plotted in roll mode (the delay effect gets terrible when adding any math function).

It feels like overall the interface desperately needs either a faster processor or a better firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 27, 2014, 11:26:11 am
It feels like overall the interface desperately needs either a faster processor or a better firmware.

Well, I won't argue that it could use a faster processor - but at €300 for 4 channels, intensity-grading, and 30k wfrm/s, I'm not sure Rigol could make much money if they used a faster one. I'm sure every penny on parts is meaningful at that price point.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on November 28, 2014, 07:32:22 am
Siglent's SDS2000 series was ALWAYS identified as "a work in progress"....it still is.

Where is the WIP sticker located on the SDS2000 units that Siglent is currently selling?   >:D  Hopefully it's on the outside of the box, and not on the unit itself, so one will see it before opening it.  I don't recall Nico ever mentioning one on his?

When I look on the Tequipment web site, I see them for sale, and I see their Specs, but I see no "Work In Progress" that they've been "ALWAYS identified as", per your statement.