EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: rolycat on September 25, 2014, 08:02:40 am

Title: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 25, 2014, 08:02:40 am
This new 50MHz version of the 4-channel DS1000Z series scopes is being discussed in several threads, particularly this one (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-oscillosope/). However, the price/performance is so outstanding that it surely deserves its own.

A 4 channel, 12 Mpts memory, 30 000 waveforms/second, intensity graded scope of this quality for around 399 USD/299 EUR/235 GBP (plus tax) is nothing short of astounding, even before the hacking possibilities are considered.

Dave has announced that he is getting one, so hopefully we can look forward to a review in the not too distant future, and - unless he finds any unexpected gotchas - a new default recommendation for entry level scopes.

Due to the ever-growing length of this thread, I have added the following section which answers frequently asked questions about the scope:
(Additions/corrections welcome - send me a PM)

Unless you have specific requirements not met by this model, it is still the default recommendation in its price range.

As of late June 2019 the most recent firmware version available from Rigol is v00.04.04.04.03 , dated May 2019 and available here (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0). A record of outstanding bugs is being maintained here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-buglist-continued-(from-fw-00-04-04-03-02)/).

The oscilloscope does not have a real time clock, and therefore cannot add the current time and date to saved screenshots and other data.

All of the options which were previously extra-cost are now available as standard. Previously, these options were initially enabled but set to expire after 35 hours runtime (not 35 hours since first use). A 'hack' is available to enable all of the trial features on scopes which do not have them enabled. It is still required to unlock 100MHz bandwidth on models such as the DS1054Z. Users considering this should be aware that it is not approved by Rigol and may void the warranty. A website featuring the code generator to enable the features can be found at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/. (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/.) Do not use the DSFR code suggested on the website. Codes for 500uV vertical resolution are intended for oscilloscopes such as the DS2000A series which have the necessary hardware for this feature. The code DSER enables all features except 500uV, which is not supported on the DS1000Z series and will cause erroneous results at this setting.
The changes can be removed using the SCPI command :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall
Full instructions for both installing and removing the changes via SCPI are provided by alsetalokin4017 here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg654839/#msg654839).
Chumanista has produced a quick video guide to upgrading and hacking the scope, available here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1027971/#msg1027971).

The US vendor TEquipment offers a discount on this oscilloscope and other products to EEVBlog members. This is available if you mention the offer when ordering. You can also use a discount code, but TEquipment have requested that it not be reproduced on the forum. There is a forum topic where the code can be requested from other members here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/).

Some prospective buyers of the DS1054Z are concerned about software bugs. These have been extensively documented due to the instrument's huge popularity, but at the time of writing most have been resolved by firmware updates. There are likely to be a number of bugs with most newly launched budget oscilloscopes, but these typically have less visibility due to much lower sales volumes.

Some of the RP2200 probes supplied with the scope have been found to have intermittent contacts when switched to the 1X setting. A fix for this issue is described here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg669159/#msg669159).

Dave has a number of blogs featuring this scope and its siblings:

A first look: EEVBlog 522 (http://www.eevblog.com/2013/09/20/eevblog-522-rigol-ds1000z-oscilloscope-quick-look/)
Teardown: EEVBlog 674 (http://www.eevblog.com/2014/10/15/eevblog-674-rigol-ds1054z-teardown/)
Reverse engineering: EEVBlog 675 (http://www.eevblog.com/2014/10/22/eevblog-675-how-to-reverse-engineer-a-rigol-ds1054z/)
Jitter problems: EEVBlog 683 (http://www.eevblog.com/2014/11/14/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/)
Jitter fix:  EEVBlog 699 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/05/eevblog-699-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-jitter-fix-testing/)
Summary review:  EEVBlog 703 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/15/eevblog-703-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-review-summary/)
Features review:  EEVBlog 704 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/15/eevblog-704-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-features-review/)
Probe performance:  EEVBlog 707 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/22/eevblog-707-rigol-oscilloscope-probe-performance/)
(There is apparently also a performance testing review which has not yet been released.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: saturation on September 25, 2014, 01:23:37 pm
What a price point, the 1054Z pretty much makes the 1052e obsolete, its a better entry level scope for only $70 more [ based on Rigol's list price] as you get 2 more channels and a faster update rate, at the least.  In the US, Tequipment is giving free shipping so there is other no hidden cost, beyond possibly sales tax.

See the other thread for datasheets and users manual.

We'll really need a learned users review to see if the build quality is truly equal to the others in the line and reveal any bugs in the firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 25, 2014, 03:08:59 pm
I got mine yesterday. So far it's a big thumbs up.

I haven't used/seen the others in the range but why would this one be built differently or have fifferent firmware?

I can easily spend more than the cost of the 'scope in unlockable options. Would they put cheap knobs on it just to spite the people who only want 50MHz bandwidth? That makes no sense.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on September 25, 2014, 03:13:54 pm
Ordered mine just now from drieg. Hoping to get my hands on it next week.  :-/O :box:.
Can't wait to toy around with the thing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 25, 2014, 03:16:50 pm
How durable are the knobs on these things? Seems like some of them take quite a pounding (eg. the menu button). Do they last...?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on September 25, 2014, 03:39:34 pm
How durable are the knobs on these things? Seems like some of them take quite a pounding (eg. the menu button). Do they last...?
The DS1054Z is exactly the same as the other 1000Z(-S) DSO/MSOs and so far, it is pretty much all praise-praise-praise for its older and bigger brothers so I would expect the DS1054Z to be no different.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 25, 2014, 04:13:40 pm
How durable are the knobs on these things? Seems like some of them take quite a pounding (eg. the menu button). Do they last...?

They come with a three year warranty, so presumably Rigol are confident that they will last the distance.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frenky on September 25, 2014, 05:02:36 pm
Mine is already full option DS1104Z.  :-+

This thing is really light years ahead of the usb crap that I was using before...

P.S.
This thing runs on linux right? How come It doesent need "soft" shut down?
I feel really bad by pressing the button which just cuts power to the scope...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 25, 2014, 05:35:22 pm
So you are saying that you have 100MHz bandwidth and can verify it? Sorry for the doubt but I haven't read everything on this scope but I believed the extra features could be added but not bandwidth. I hope I am wrong.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 25, 2014, 05:42:09 pm
So you are saying that you have 100MHz bandwidth and can verify it? Sorry for the doubt but I haven't read everything on this scope but I believed the extra features could be added but not bandwidth. I hope I am wrong.

But would would be different about this particular UltraVision scope? Rigol doesn't sell bandwidth upgrades for ANY of their DSOs - the fact that you could enable higher BW via keys was only because Rigol put the code in their UltraVision FW with the intention of offering upgrades - but they've never implemented it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: c4757p on September 25, 2014, 06:03:25 pm
This thing runs on linux right? How come It doesent need "soft" shut down?
I feel really bad by pressing the button which just cuts power to the scope...

No idea what it runs on, but either way, it's just a matter of filesystem access. Make sure everything happens when you ask it to instead of being queued for background writes later, don't be writing things when it's not obvious, and write things in a way that they're recoverable if the power is cut midway through. Don't run services which need to save state at shutdown.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on September 25, 2014, 06:14:37 pm
But would would be different about this particular UltraVision scope? Rigol doesn't sell bandwidth upgrades for ANY of their DSOs - the fact that you could enable higher BW via keys was only because Rigol put the code in their UltraVision FW with the intention of offering upgrades - but they've never implemented it.
Do we know if the DS1000Z line uses the LMH6518 PGA, like the DS2000 line?  If so, what would be different is that it doesn't seem like they could reduce the bandwidth from 70MHz to 50MHz using LMH6518 settings, so there would have to be some other LPF or software limit added.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 25, 2014, 06:38:09 pm
So you are saying that you have 100MHz bandwidth and can verify it? Sorry for the doubt but I haven't read everything on this scope but I believed the extra features could be added but not bandwidth. I hope I am wrong.

a) Somebody posted some waveforms in the "DS1074Z" thread, they seemed to show an improvement.

b) People have been tweaking the DS1074Z to DS1104Z for ages. Why would this be different?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on September 25, 2014, 06:45:59 pm
a) Somebody posted some waveforms in the "DS1074Z" thread, they seemed to show an improvement.
He seems to have deleted that post.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on September 25, 2014, 07:28:23 pm
Ordered my on Tequipment a week ago and it just shipped, a steal for only $356! (edu pricing + eeveblog discount)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mandelbrot on September 25, 2014, 08:14:26 pm
Ordered my on Tequipment a week ago and it just shipped, a steal for only $356! (edu pricing + eeveblog discount)

How did you do this? I was told that the edu pricing and the EEVblog discount were mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on September 25, 2014, 08:20:33 pm
Ordered my on Tequipment a week ago and it just shipped, a steal for only $356! (edu pricing + eeveblog discount)

How did you do this? I was told that the edu pricing and the EEVblog discount were mutually exclusive.
uh, it was?? I have an edu email, and I applied the eevblog discount and the website accepted it??
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 25, 2014, 08:25:38 pm
a) Somebody posted some waveforms in the "DS1074Z" thread, they seemed to show an improvement.
He seems to have deleted that post.

I think the measurable difference will be tiny in practice.

Plus ... even with the DS1104Z you can only get the 100MHz on a single channel. If you use more than one channel you'll get pretty much the same bandwidths as the DS1054Z (they both have the same sample rate, etc).

I'd still have bought mine even if you told me the keygen did nothing. 300 Euros is a whole new level of "bargain" for a 'scope like this.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 25, 2014, 08:34:01 pm
So it is still not clear whether the bandwidth is upgradeable. I will might buy one if it ever gets confirmed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 25, 2014, 09:13:00 pm
I think the measureable difference will be tiny in practice.

I agree, it is somewhat of a moot point because the sample rate is not there if using more than one channel anyway.

1ch = 1GSa = 10 samples per second @ 100 MHz
2ch = 500MSa = 10 samples per second @ 50 MHz
4ch = 250MSa = 10 samples per second @ 25 MHz

I hope the bandwidth does improve, or was never different to begin with.

Did anyone ever prove if the 1074 and 1104 are different or exactly the same in signal response?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 25, 2014, 09:46:05 pm
The bandwidth is always there. Sample rate relates to the accuracy of the shape of the waveform captured. Almost every scope doesn't  keep their maximum sample rate with more than one channel, so every scope's bandwidth is a moot point?

But yes, at even 50MHz, this is a good buy.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 25, 2014, 09:48:35 pm
So it is still not clear whether the bandwidth is upgradeable. I will might buy one if it ever gets confirmed.

You'll overlook a decent 4-channel DSO for $400 just because you can't hack the bandwith to get a tiny, hard to measure improvement? 

 :palm:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 25, 2014, 09:54:12 pm
so every scope's bandwidth is a moot point?

Of course not, but this particular scope's sample rate with 2 or more channels limits the speed of a signal you can get 10 or more samples with to 50MHz(2ch) or 25MHz(4ch).  So while a bandwidth upgrade is nice if it works, it is of limited use.  I truly wonder if the model difference does affect the bandwidth or if they are all the same....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 25, 2014, 10:01:01 pm
Almost every scope doesn't  keep their maximum sample rate with more than one channel, so every scope's bandwidth is a moot point?

Not totally moot, but when two 'scopes have the exact same same front end, probes and sample rate I don't think one is worth twice as much as the other just because it goes a teeny bit higher in single channel mode.

If you're truly interested in 100MHz signals you should probably be looking at a DS2000 anyway.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 25, 2014, 10:17:59 pm
Authoritative figures will doubtless soon arrive from someone with proper equipment, but I have just tested my upgraded DS1054Z against a couple of other scopes using an old pulse generator.

Using a vaguely sinusoidal 52MHz signal, measured amplitudes were as follows:

Scope P-PBandwidth
Rigol DS1054Z 2.40 V  100 MHz
Tektronix 465B 2.4 V  100 MHz
Hantek DSO5062B  2.46 V  ~200 MHz

Level instability was around +/- 0.04V.

The DS1054Z thinks it is a DS1104Z, and the DSO5062B has been software-upgraded to a ballpark 200MHz.
The pulse generator is an ancient and very obscure Pulsetek 233, connected via an RG-58 BNC cable with an inline 50 ohm terminator at the scope end.

This does suggest that either applying the option codes has indeed increased the bandwidth or that it has always been around 100MHz and model numbers are notional.

Having said all that, the triggering, decoding, recording and memory depth options are far more useful to me.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on September 25, 2014, 10:20:37 pm
Which process did you use to get the options ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 25, 2014, 10:26:46 pm
You'll overlook a decent 4-channel DSO for $400 just because you can't hack the bandwith to get a tiny, hard to measure improvement? 

 :palm:

But yes, at even 50MHz, this is a good buy.

I already have a scope and spending money to replace it requires that certain threshold of improvement is achieved. There are many benefits to the DS1054Z but going backwards in bandwidth goes against the grain a bit. Personal bias? YES! It is my money and I have my criteria for making an upgrade.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 25, 2014, 10:31:36 pm
Which process did you use to get the options ?
The riglol keygen, as documented in various threads.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on September 25, 2014, 10:34:53 pm
Did you need to connect to the JTAG interface first though ?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 25, 2014, 10:36:07 pm
Did you need to connect to the JTAG interface first though ?
Nope
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LeoUCDavis on September 25, 2014, 11:25:29 pm
Is there a code for getting the eev discount?

uh, it was?? I have an edu email, and I applied the eevblog discount and the website accepted it??
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 25, 2014, 11:41:42 pm
I sent you a pm with it
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on September 26, 2014, 03:11:26 am
But yes, at even 50MHz, this is a good buy.
For someone who really needs waveform accuracy though, the DS1000Z platform starts coming apart at the seams if you need quad-channel capability beyond 25MHz.

I plan to use my DS1054Z mostly for power-related measurements and those usually call for a 20MHz bandwidth limit anyway. Pretty much as close to a perfect fit for what I need it for as it gets.

I already have a scope and spending money to replace it requires that certain threshold of improvement is achieved. There are many benefits to the DS1054Z but going backwards in bandwidth goes against the grain a bit. Personal bias? YES! It is my money and I have my criteria for making an upgrade.
This is a bit like a mechanics' toolbox where you may find 10 slightly different versions of a 12mm wrench (angled, straight, knuckle-length, standard length, box, open, pipe, etc.) or socket (wobble, short, medium, long, thin-wall, impact, 1/4", 5/8", 1/2", 3/4" drive, etc.)  They are all fundamentally the same tool but mechanics hoard multiple variants because in some circumstances, having the tool that fits exactly right can spare them tons of trouble.

Instead of looking at it as a replacement, you might want to look at it as a complement to cover areas where your current one is deficient. Ex.: you are debugging stuff on a board and suspect it might be power-related but you need your good scope to chase high-frequency stuff. If you had a DS1054Z, you could set it up to monitor the power rails and leave your main scope's channels free for whatever else you need to do.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: cdstriker on September 26, 2014, 07:09:13 am
Any chance someone would be willing to give me the EEVblog discount code for TEquipment?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on September 26, 2014, 07:25:44 am
Any chance someone would be willing to give me the EEVblog discount code for TEquipment?
PM sent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on September 26, 2014, 07:37:00 am
I already have a scope and spending money to replace it requires that certain threshold of improvement is achieved. There are many benefits to the DS1054Z but going backwards in bandwidth goes against the grain a bit. Personal bias? YES! It is my money and I have my criteria for making an upgrade.
Seems reasonable actually (any market), but especially with what things tend to cost in Brazil. Shipping alone can ruin a good value otherwise.  :(

Bandwidth aside, is there anything you're lacking with your existing scope that a newer budget DSO could provide (i.e. existing scope is analog, so some DSO features might be nice to have)?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Ivan7enych on September 26, 2014, 09:22:49 am
Any chance someone would be willing to give me the EEVblog discount code for TEquipment?
I simply open chat on TEquipment site, and tell them "I'm a member of a eevblog, can I get a discount?". And I've got this discount in 5min. I used that method twice.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2014, 09:37:26 am
For someone who really needs waveform accuracy though, the DS1000Z platform starts coming apart at the seams if you need quad-channel capability beyond 25MHz.

Oh course it does, it's one of the cheapest scopes on the market! only US$399.
Off hand I can't think of another scope that even comes close in bang-per-buck for the same price?

Of course, if you want to get pedantic, at 250MSs with all 4 channels on, that gives you 5 times the max 50MHz bandwidth. In theory you only need about 2.4 times the sample rate if you have sin x/x interpolation, giving just over 100MHz bandwidth before it becomes an issue over and above the base bandwidth. So more than enough in the case of 50MHz here.
Many people don't feel comfortable with this mathematical concept though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2014, 09:38:45 am
A sample 1054Z is on it's way to me end of next week.
And I should have my own unit some time after that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 09:59:48 am
In theory you only need about 2.4 times the sample rate if you have sin x/x interpolation

Is that why they don't let you turn it on when you're only using one or two channels?   ;)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2014, 10:06:38 am
Is that why they don't let you turn it on when you're only using one or two channels?   ;)

They do that?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 10:09:43 am
For someone who really needs waveform accuracy though, the DS1000Z platform starts coming apart at the seams if you need quad-channel capability beyond 25MHz.

Oh course it does, it's one of the cheapest scopes on the market!

 :-DD I guess we're not thinking from a marketer's viewpoint...

Imagine if it didn't come apart at the seams, the entire ecosystem would collapse!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 10:10:28 am
Is that why they don't let you turn it on when you're only using one or two channels?   ;)

They do that?

Yes.

Edit: No it doesn't, it just prevents manual control of the setting. Appears to be always "ON".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 10:16:49 am
Of course, if you want to get pedantic, at 250MSs with all 4 channels on, that gives you 5 times the max 50MHz bandwidth. In theory you only need about 2.4 times the sample rate if you have sin x/x interpolation...

This theory only holds true when you have an analog input signal that has no frequency content above the Nyquist frequency - in this case, 125MHz. This would require that the DSO have a frequency response which attenuated signals > 125MHz at -60dB to avoid aliasing. This is not true for the DS1000Z series - and the very reason that most DSOs have sampling rates 10 or more times higher than their highest bandwidth. Said differently, the frequency response of the oscilloscope does not roll-off infinitely fast and some buffer room is needed on the sampling rate to minimize aliasing.

Why does the DS1000Z have a switch to turn on and off sin(x)/x? Because it should be switched off when running 3 or 4 channels - and sometimes the 20MHz BW limiter switched on as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 10:19:42 am
Why does the DS1000Z have a switch to turn on and off sin(x)/x? Because it should be switched off when running 3 or 4 channels

Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

Edit: No it doesn't, it just prevents user control of the setting with one or two channels.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 10:24:38 am
Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

On the DS2000, sin(x)/x is ON automatically when sampling at 1 or 2GSa/s - and automatically switched OFF (linear interpolation) when sampling at < 500MSa/s.

EDIT: Perhaps it's also ON automatically sometimes? Like when using just 1 or 2 channels with a high sample rate? I'm guessing with 1/2 channels, it functions as a DS2000.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 10:31:21 am
That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

From the user manual:

Quote
Sin(x)/x
Press Sin(x)/x to enable or disable the dynamic sine interpolation function which can acquire better restoration of the original waveform.

Note: If the number of channels currently turned on is less than three, Sin(x)/x is grayed out and disabled.

To me that sounds like it's by design, not a bug.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 10:35:51 am
From the user manual:

Quote
Sin(x)/x
Press Sin(x)/x to enable or disable the dynamic sine interpolation function which can acquire better restoration of the original waveform.

Note: If the number of channels currently turned on is less than three, Sin(x)/x is grayed out and disabled.

To me that sounds like it's by design, not a bug.

As I mentioned above in my EDIT, it may be that automatic selection of sin(x)/linear works the same as the DS2000 when running 1 or 2 channels - giving you manual selection ONLY when you have 3 or 4 channels enabled.

In any case, I can assure you that Rigol engineers have not figured out a way to beat the Nyquist theorem or limits of sin(x)/x interpolation.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 26, 2014, 10:37:36 am
That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

From the user manual:

Quote
Sin(x)/x
Press Sin(x)/x to enable or disable the dynamic sine interpolation function which can acquire better restoration of the original waveform.

Note: If the number of channels currently turned on is less than three, Sin(x)/x is grayed out and disabled.

To me that sounds like it's by design, not a bug.

I think the phrasing in the manual is misleading here.

On my scope, the Sin(x)/x key is indeed greyed out if less than three channels are turned on, but the text reads "ON". It can only be turned off when three or four channels are in use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 10:39:27 am
As I mentioned above in my EDIT, it may be that automatic selection of sin(x)/linear works the same as the DS2000 when running 1 or 2 channels - giving you manual selection ONLY when you have 3 or 4 channels enabled.

I dunno. I'll leave that to Dave in his review/test...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 10:39:58 am
On my scope, the Sin(x)/x key is indeed greyed out if less than three channels are turned on, but the text reads "ON". It can only be turned off when three or four channels are in use.

Thanks for clarifying; it's just as I originally proposed (i.e. the opposite).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 10:42:33 am
On my scope, the Sin(x)/x key is indeed greyed out if less than three channels are turned on, but the text reads "ON". It can only be turned off when three or four channels are in use.

Can you check what it reads when you have just 1 or 2 channels enabled with a slower sample rate (e.g. something <=250MSa/s)?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 10:48:49 am
On my scope, the Sin(x)/x key is indeed greyed out if less than three channels are turned on, but the text reads "ON". It can only be turned off when three or four channels are in use.

Ah, ok.... PEBOAC.

Can you check what it reads when you have just 1 or 2 channels enabled with a slower sample rate (e.g. something <=250MSa/s)?

I just went down to 25Msa/s. It never enables the setting.

(And that agrees with what the manual says...)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 10:51:43 am
I just went down to 25Msa/s. It never enables the setting.

(And that agrees with what the manual says...)

I don't want to know if it enables the setting - I already know it doesn't. I want to know if it says ON or OFF at sample rates <= 250MSa/s. My theory is that the DSO functions like the DS2000 when running 1 or 2 channels - automatically switching OFF sin(x)/x when the sampling rate is 1/4 or less than the maximum.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 10:57:48 am
I don't want to know if it enables the setting - I already know it doesn't. I want to know if it says ON or OFF at sample rates <= 250MSa/s. My theory is that the DSO functions like the DS2000 when running 1 or 2 channels - automatically switching OFF sin(x)/x when the sampling rate is 1/4 or less than the maximum.

It never says "OFF", always "ON".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 10:59:27 am
It never says "OFF", always "ON".

Another bug then.  :)  There is no way sin(x)/x interpolation is running at very slow sample rates. I guess Rigol didn't feel the code necessary to change the display to ON or OFF was necessary if it wasn't enabled.  ;D

The menu name should ACTUALLY be something like "AUTO sin(x)/x".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 11:13:55 am
The menu name should ACTUALLY be something like "AUTO sin(x)/x".

Or maybe the key should display "AUTO" instead of "ON".

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 11:33:44 am
It never says "OFF", always "ON".

BTW, if you want to see if/when the DSO is using sin(x)/x versus linear interpolation: set the memory depth to the minimum, set the the time base to make the sampling rate 1/2 or 1/4 of the maximum,  then look at a zoomed signal and check for 'smoothing'. Exit zoom, turn the time base one setting slower, then zoom in again. Keep repeating until the smoothing vanishes and the signal becomes a collection of straight-line vectors.

Here are 2 images of the same signal which show the difference between AUTO sin(x)/x - linear switching on the DS2000.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 26, 2014, 11:59:36 am
Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

If the digitizer suffers from excessive amplitude or phase jitter when interleaving is used which happens when only 1 or 2 channels are active, then Rigol might force (x)/x interpolation off because it makes aliasing generated in the digitizer through intermodulation more apparent.  This occurs whether the input signal has components above the Nyquist frequency or not and no anti-aliasing filter can improve the situation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 12:15:31 pm
Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

If the digitizer suffers from excessive amplitude or phase jitter when interleaving is used which happens when only 1 or 2 channels are active, then Rigol might force (x)/x interpolation off because it makes aliasing generated in the digitizer through intermodulation more apparent.  This occurs whether the input signal has components above the Nyquist frequency or not and no anti-aliasing filter can improve the situation.

As already indicated by subsequent posts, this is not the case - and in fact, Fungus had it backwards, just as I wrote - the DSO only allows you to turn it OFF when 3 or 4 channels are enabled. Besides, IMO, your theory presumes a bad design to begin with - and I doubt there's a modern DSO, inexpensive or otherwise - that does what you propose.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 26, 2014, 01:16:30 pm
Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

That is either a bug - or working the opposite of what it's actually displaying. It makes no sense that way.

If the digitizer suffers from excessive amplitude or phase jitter when interleaving is used which happens when only 1 or 2 channels are active, then Rigol might force (x)/x interpolation off because it makes aliasing generated in the digitizer through intermodulation more apparent.  This occurs whether the input signal has components above the Nyquist frequency or not and no anti-aliasing filter can improve the situation.

As already indicated by subsequent posts, this is not the case - and in fact, Fungus had it backwards, just as I wrote - the DSO only allows you to turn it OFF when 3 or 4 channels are enabled. Besides, IMO, your theory presumes a bad design to begin with - and I doubt there's a modern DSO, inexpensive or otherwise - that does what you propose.

Well, the above discussion about what the Rigol is doing is clear as mud. :)

The old DSOs which I have used that support sin(x)/x interpolation only forced it off when using equivalent time sampling where it is useless.  In all other cases and especially at low sample rate to bandwidth ratios, it was controlled by the user.

Some pretty expensive modern oscilloscopes which use interleaving visibly suffer from this problem to one extent or another.  I have yet to see anybody test for it on Rigol's oscilloscopes or any other inexpensive DSO.

This Agilent application note discusses the interleaving issue:

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf)

And this one shows on page 5 what happens to a fast transition time signal when this occurs on a real-time DSO although it does not discuss this specific cause:

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5988-8008EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5988-8008EN.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 01:39:59 pm
Well, the above discussion about what the Rigol is doing is clear as mud. :)

I think rolycat's post makes it crystal clear that sin(x)/x is either ON all the time with 1/2 channels *or* (more likely) is automatically switched ON/OFF based on sample rate (as it's bigger brother, the DS2000 does).

Quote
Some pretty expensive modern oscilloscopes which use interleaving visibly suffer from this problem to one extent or another.  I have yet to see anybody test for it on Rigol's oscilloscopes or any other inexpensive DSO.

I understand the problem with interleaving - but to propose that the interleaving happening inside a single chip - which has been designed specifically to have it's multiple ADC's interleaved - is bad enough to warrant switching off sin(x)/x seems a stretch to me.  :)

In any case - as I showed with my posted images - it's quite simple for any DS1000Z owner to find out when and where the DSO is using sin(x)/x interpolation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 26, 2014, 02:39:53 pm
Well, the above discussion about what the Rigol is doing is clear as mud. :)

I think rolycat's post makes it crystal clear that sin(x)/x is either ON all the time with 1/2 channels *or* (more likely) is automatically switched ON/OFF based on sample rate (as it's bigger brother, the DS2000 does).

This is not the first time that I have found Rigol's documentation to be less than unambiguous.

Quote
Quote
Some pretty expensive modern oscilloscopes which use interleaving visibly suffer from this problem to one extent or another.  I have yet to see anybody test for it on Rigol's oscilloscopes or any other inexpensive DSO.

I understand the problem with interleaving - but to propose that the interleaving happening inside a single chip - which has been designed specifically to have it's multiple ADC's interleaved - is bad enough to warrant switching off sin(x)/x seems a stretch to me.  :)

This is why I wish someone would test this.  From what I remember, the ADC does some type of internal self-calibration to minimize distortion caused by interleaving but it is still at the mercy of its external clock source.

Quote
In any case - as I showed with my posted images - it's quite simple for any DS1000Z owner to find out when and where the DSO is using sin(x)/x interpolation.

It would be easier if the oscilloscope would just report its true state.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 03:55:32 pm
Well, the above discussion about what the Rigol is doing is clear as mud. :)

Mea culpa.

This is why I wish someone would test this.  From what I remember, the ADC does some type of internal self-calibration to minimize distortion caused by interleaving but it is still at the mercy of its external clock source.

You're saying Rigol don't know how to make a stable clock source?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on September 26, 2014, 04:25:24 pm
Why does the DS1000Z have a switch to turn on and off sin(x)/x? Because it should be switched off when running 3 or 4 channels

Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

I'm just going to hazard a guess, since I don't have a 1000z, but sinx/x may default On (or always be on) for 1 or 2 channels.  And defaults Off with 3 or 4 enabled (with the option to turn it back on, as Fungus noted, IF you know the input signal characteristics would allow it).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 26, 2014, 04:49:07 pm
Why does the DS1000Z have a switch to turn on and off sin(x)/x? Because it should be switched off when running 3 or 4 channels

Weird. Mine only lets me switch it on when running 3 or 4 channels.

I'm just going to hazard a guess, since I don't have a 1000z, but sinx/x may default On (or always be on) for 1 or 2 channels.  And defaults Off with 3 or 4 enabled (with the option to turn it back on, as Fungus noted, IF you know the input signal characteristics would allow it).
This question has already been resolved - see my subsequent post.

Fungus, maybe you could edit your posts to avoid misunderstandings by readers skimming the thread?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 26, 2014, 04:52:37 pm
Bandwidth aside, is there anything you're lacking with your existing scope that a newer budget DSO could provide (i.e. existing scope is analog, so some DSO features might be nice to have)?

I have a modified DS1052E. What is missing is the update speed, the much bigger memory, and protocol decoding. These could all be helpful to me. I probably will get one. I don't need much more than what this scope offers so a DS2072A is much more money for not much more of what I could use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on September 26, 2014, 05:40:40 pm
Bandwidth aside, is there anything you're lacking with your existing scope that a newer budget DSO could provide (i.e. existing scope is analog, so some DSO features might be nice to have)?

I have a modified DS1052E. What is missing is the update speed, the much bigger memory, and protocol decoding. These could all be helpful to me. I probably will get one. I don't need much more than what this scope offers so a DS2072A is much more money for not much more of what I could use.
Makes sense.  :)

I'm still only using a CRO (Tek 2445B, so not exactly a hardship  :P), and some of the features of a DSO would be nice (screenshots for example).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 26, 2014, 05:44:27 pm
Hi all.

This morning a friend came in my lab with a new little toy (hacked DS1054z) and asked me to have some measurement done; since I was busy I made just a couple of test of it.

Measured bandwidth -3db @ 116MHZ with my old (and trusty) Agilent 8657B.
Also attached you will find the best rise and fall time measured.

Still I can't believe that this thing costs only 299€.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 26, 2014, 06:28:11 pm
This is why I wish someone would test this.  From what I remember, the ADC does some type of internal self-calibration to minimize distortion caused by interleaving but it is still at the mercy of its external clock source.

You're saying Rigol don't know how to make a stable clock source?

I am suggesting that Rigol is playing games with the sin(x)/x reconstruction filter because it makes their digitizer linearity or sampling jitter look bad but maybe Occam's Razor or Hanlon's Razor applies.

All someone has to do is measure multiple single shot responses on either fast edges or clean sine waves close below the Nyquist frequency and compare them with and without interleaving which is easy enough to do by enabling the other channels.  If there is a problem with clock source jitter, ADC linearity (presumably made worse by interleaving), or ADC sampling jitter (also presumably made worse with interleaving), it will show up with or without the sin(x)/x reconstruction but it is easier to see with it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on September 26, 2014, 06:47:47 pm
Hi all.

This morning a friend came in my lab with a new little toy (hacked DS1054z) and asked me to have some measurement done; since I was busy I made just a couple of test of it.

Measured bandwidth -3db @ 116MHZ with my old (and trusty) Agilent 8657B.
Also attached you will find the best rise and fall time measured.

Still I can't believe that this thing costs only 299€.

That is awesome, thanks  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 07:21:48 pm
I am suggesting that Rigol is playing games with the sin(x)/x reconstruction filter because it makes their digitizer linearity or sampling jitter look bad but maybe Occam's Razor or Hanlon's Razor applies.

Honestly, your "suggestion" is based on pure speculation - and, IMO, contradictory to both posted information from users and common sense. To me it seems as if you're just spreading misinformation.

It's already been reported that sin(x)/x is displayed as being automatically ON with 1 or 2 channels enabled - and having manual selection available ONLY when the highest sampling rate is 250MSa/s makes perfect sense - both from the point of view of avoiding possible aliasing in the sin(x)/x interpolation, plus that of porting code from the other UltraVision models.

Instead of continually expounding this theory, perhaps you can post a link to one single document from ANY scope manufacturer that describes turning OFF sin(x)/x at the FASTEST real-time sampling rates to avoid the problem you're imagining.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2014, 08:42:04 pm
Still I can't believe that this thing costs only 299€.

If Rigol wanted to set the market on fire it looks like they succeeded.

They sell themselves. I just showed mine to somebody and he's like, "I'm gonna get one...".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 26, 2014, 10:02:29 pm
I am suggesting that Rigol is playing games with the sin(x)/x reconstruction filter because it makes their digitizer linearity or sampling jitter look bad but maybe Occam's Razor or Hanlon's Razor applies.

Honestly, your "suggestion" is based on pure speculation - and, IMO, contradictory to both posted information from users and common sense. To me it seems as if you're just spreading misinformation.

I do not expect common sense from a company that repeatedly confused peak detection with envelope detection in an apparent attempt to mislead customers into thinking their DSOs had the former when they actually only had the later.  I ran across this years ago when I was evaluating DSOs (before the Rigol Z series was even announced) and it led me to disqualify Rigol.  Ever since then, I have been suspicious of their motives.  Of course this may have been common sense for them from a marketing point of view.

Quote
It's already been reported that sin(x)/x is displayed as being automatically ON with 1 or 2 channels enabled - and having manual selection available ONLY when the highest sampling rate is 250MSa/s makes perfect sense - both from the point of view of avoiding aliasing, plus that of porting code from the other UltraVision models.

It does NOT make sense for it to be disabled (or enabled) to avoid aliasing because sin(x)/x reconstruction neither causes nor increase aliasing.  It merely makes it more apparent.

Quote
Instead of continually expounding this theory, perhaps you can post a link to one single document from ANY scope manufacturer that describes turning OFF sin(x)/x at the FASTEST real-time sampling rates to avoid the problem you're imagining.

I would love to link to a set of screen shots or videos showing if the aliasing problem exists or not in a Rigol DSO but I do not have one to test.  I can show it on other (old) DSOs and in Agilent's application notes but that is not very helpful except to show that the problem exists in a general sense.  Agilent pointed the problem out to distinguish themselves from Tektronix.

No company in their right mind is going to include as a reason for turning off sin(x)/x interpolation that it is to conceal aliasing made worse by interleaving done to increase the real-time sample rate.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 26, 2014, 10:37:16 pm
I do not expect common sense from a company that repeatedly confused peak detection with envelope detection in an apparent attempt to mislead customers into thinking their DSOs had the former when they actually only had the later.  I ran across this years ago when I was evaluating DSOs (before the Rigol Z series was even announced) and it led me to disqualify Rigol.  Ever since then, I have been suspicious of their motives.  Of course this may have been common sense for them from a marketing point of view.

Your problems with them from the past are meaningless to this discussion, IMO - virtually every single company has made mistakes with some product at some point or another. The point is rather that you started this theory of yours in response to a MISTAKE that was posted in this thread by an owner (Fungus) about the way the DSO dealt with with sin(x)/x.

Quote
It does NOT make sense for it to be disabled (or enabled) to avoid aliasing because sin(x)/x reconstruction neither causes nor increase aliasing.  It merely makes it more apparent.

As has been mentioned before: for sin(x)/x interpolation to be accurate, you have to have an analog input signal that has no frequency content above the Nyquist frequency - which, when 3 or 4 channels are on, is 125MHz. The normal frequency response of the DS1000Z does not roll-off fast enough to minimize aliasing for sin(x)/x interpolation - i.e. LINEAR interpolation should be used  - or-  to put it another way, there exists a good reason for being able to manually keep sin(x)/x turned OFF when 3 or 4 channels are on, if you need to. On the other hand, if you enable the 20MHz bandwidth limiter for each channel that's turned on, you can use sin(x)/x interpolation without problems, regardless of the number of channels on.

Quote
I would love to link to a set of screen shots or videos showing if the aliasing problem exists or not in a Rigol DSO but I do not have one to test.  I can show it on other (old) DSOs and in Agilent's application notes but that is not very helpful except to show that the problem exists in a general sense.  Agilent pointed the problem out to distinguish themselves from Tektronix.

Again, where are these application notes? I want to see a document describing turning off sin(x)/x interpolation because of interleaving problems at the fastest real-time sampling rates. I can link to reams of literature about the problem of aliases in sin(x)/x interpolation, if you like.

Quote
No company in their right mind is going to include as a reason for turning off sin(x)/x interpolation that it is to conceal aliasing made worse by interleaving done to increase the real-time sample rate.

Do you mean that no company will have published literature about this made-up theory of yours?  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on September 26, 2014, 11:26:38 pm
A sample 1054Z is on it's way to me end of next week.
And I should have my own unit some time after that.

So you 'll be doing a review?? :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 27, 2014, 12:31:23 am
Your problems with them from the past are meaningless to this discussion, IMO - virtually every single company has made mistakes with some product at some point or another. The point is rather that you started this theory of yours in response to a MISTAKE that was posted in this thread by an owner (Fungus) about the way the DSO dealt with with sin(x)/x.

They are meaningful in questioning the credibility of Rigol and especially so since they have continuously made the same mistake for years and have not corrected it yet.  Perhaps I am too strident at times.

I admit that I mistakenly thought Rigol was disabling sin(x)/x at low sample rates to conceal digitizer non-linearity and sampling jitter.  Now I am suspicious that they are doing the same at higher sample rate to conceal the same problems when interleaving is used.

What other oscilloscopes disable sin(x)/x reconstruction at high sample rates where it is still useful?  Oscilloscopes operating with equivalent time sampling do so because they can fill the entire waveform record with real sample points.  These 1 Gsample/second real-time only DSOs certainly cannot do that.

Quote
Quote
It does NOT make sense for it to be disabled (or enabled) to avoid aliasing because sin(x)/x reconstruction neither causes nor increase aliasing.  It merely makes it more apparent.

As has been mentioned before: for sin(x)/x interpolation to be accurate, you have to have an analog input signal that has no frequency content above the Nyquist frequency - which, when 3 or 4 channels are on, is 125MHz. The normal frequency response of the DS1000Z does not roll-off fast enough to minimize aliasing for sin(x)/x interpolation ...

I agree.

Quote
... - i.e. LINEAR interpolation should be used  - or-  to put it another way, there exists a good reason for being able to manually keep sin(x)/x turned OFF when 3 or 4 channels are on, if you need to. ...

The aliasing produced in the digitizer between an input signal which is completely below the Nyquist frequency and the sample clock occurs whether sin(x)/x reconstruction is used or not.  If you were to collect the sample points over multiple acquisitions, they would show thickening of the waveform which is *not* caused by noise.

I have often wondered if DSOs which support some form of persistence and appear to show excessive noise actually suffer from this but that is a different discussion.

I also wonder if this is why they do not support equivalent time sampling with their digital triggers but that is also a different discussion.

Quote
... On the other hand, if you enable the 20MHz bandwidth limiter for each channel that's turned on, you can use sin(x)/x interpolation without problems on the higher sample rates

I agree but for a specific reason; with the bandwidth limit engaged or with a lower frequency signal, the mixing products between the signal and the sample clock produced by the non-linearity and sample jitter in the digitizer are *also* below the Nyquist frequency so no aliasing is produced.

Quote
Quote
I would love to link to a set of screen shots or videos showing if the aliasing problem exists or not in a Rigol DSO but I do not have one to test.  I can show it on other (old) DSOs and in Agilent's application notes but that is not very helpful except to show that the problem exists in a general sense.  Agilent pointed the problem out to distinguish themselves from Tektronix.

Again, where are these application notes? I want to see a document describing turning off sin(x)/x interpolation because of interleaving problems at the fastest real-time sampling rates. I can link to reams of literature about the problem of aliases in sin(x)/x interpolation, if you like.

When I first ran across this problem with my Tektronix 2440 which needed CCD calibration, Agilent had an application note describing the issue perfectly but I did not keep a copy and have not been able to find it again online.  I did find a couple of others:

This LeCroy application note mentions the sin(x)/x reconstruction problem in connection with interleaving on page 15 with a Tektronix DSO.  Agilent likes to pick on Tektronix about this as well:

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf)

This Agilent application note discusses the interleaving problem and distortion from the digitizer itself as the source of aliasing when the input signal is completely within the Nyquist bandwidth.  I think I linked this one earlier:

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf)

I even found a discussion thread on EEVblog with accompanying video which shows exactly the problem I described with a Rigol DS1102E.  I do not agree with the analysis that I have read so far there but am still working through the discussion:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin%28x%29x-interpolation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin%28x%29x-interpolation/)

At about 46 seconds into the video, it shows the results of sin(x)/x reconstruction on a sine wave that started out below the Nyquist frequency were higher frequency components created by mixing between the sample clock and the signal in the digitizer cause aliasing.

Quote
Quote
No company in their right mind is going to include as a reason for turning off sin(x)/x interpolation that it is to conceal aliasing made worse by interleaving done to increase the real-time sample rate.

Do you mean that no company will have published literature about this made-up theory of yours?  ;)

Well, they are certainly not going to advertise it in their oscilloscope specifications or documentation unless for the purpose of distinguishing themselves from their competitors and maybe not even then. :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 27, 2014, 01:04:59 am
They are meaningful in questioning the credibility of Rigol and especially so since they have continuously made the same mistake for years and have not corrected it yet.  Perhaps I am too strident at times.

You clearly have some bad feeling about Rigol based on some problem you have/had with their older technology. Peak Detect (not Envelope mode) works perfectly fine on my Rigol DS2000 - as opposed to, say, the new Siglent SDS2000.

Quote
The aliasing produced in the digitizer between an input signal which is completely below the Nyquist frequency and the sample clock occurs whether sin(x)/x reconstruction is used or not.

I can't even believe this is something we need to debate - if the waveform is not-band limited properly, then it's generally agreed upon that linear interpolation usually provides a more faithful representation. That's why Rigol provides manual control of the interpolation when the sample rate is reduced to 250MSa/s when 3 or 4 channels are turned on - it's that simple.

Quote
This LeCroy application note mentions the sin(x)/x reconstruction problem in connection with interleaving on page 15 with a Tektronix DSO.  Agilent likes to pick on Tektronix about this as well:

I certainly don't see anything of the sort written on page 15. I see LeCroy stating that, "The Tektronix scope shows some amplitude modulation in the result, but this thought not to be a result of interpolation, but instead interleaving performance."

What has this to do with your stated theory that a company will disable sin(x)/x at fast sample rates to hide interleaving problems?

Anyway, I'm finished debating this. You clearly have some pet theory about this DSO (and it's technology) that is unsupported by any evidence whatsoever because you feel burned by Rigol about something else. If you find ANY actual proof that Rigol is disabling sin(x)/x at higher sample rates to conceal interleaving problems, I'd be happy to hear about it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 27, 2014, 04:37:40 pm
Another day, and other 5 minutes of test:

The first image is of a 130MHZ signal (50% AM modulated by 1khz sine)  just to push the scope to its limits.
The second is about the trigger out jitter time (3nS) measured from the rear output.

Moreover following results are measured by a calibrated 5334B and 1MHZ square wave:
The acquistion modes doesn't affect the wps rate.

These results simply make me sad because now I have to get one!  ;D




Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 27, 2014, 04:50:40 pm
The second is about the trigger out jitter time (3nS) measured from the rear output.

What would a trigger output with that much jitter be used for?  Qualifying a logic analyser or word recognizer?

I have used gate outputs from analog oscilloscopes and trigger outputs from DSOs which have analog triggering but I always relied on very low jitter unless I was measuring update frequency.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 27, 2014, 05:13:01 pm
Quote
What would a trigger output with that much jitter be used for?  Qualifying a logic analyser or word recognizer?
IMHO 3nS jitter on a 100MHZ cheap scope is a decent time and it is difficult to have better results with digital triggers feeded by 1G samples per second. It's just three sample uncertainty.
 
Personally I don't use measuring tape when I look for millimeters.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 27, 2014, 05:35:12 pm
The second is about the trigger out jitter time (3nS) measured from the rear output.
Are you sure your tests are completely accurate? In your image, I don't see a separate input channel being used to generate the Trigger Outs (unless the output is from a different DS1000Z).

The Trigger Out jitter of the DS1074Z - as measured by two different owners here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg448542/#msg448542) and here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg448586/#msg448586) - was reported as 8ns. I doubt it's been changed by Rigol on the DS1054Z model - although it would be nice if they had  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 27, 2014, 05:48:03 pm
In fact I didn't use two channels.
I just let the scope autooscillate on a single channel after an external stimulus and set the scope to trigger both negative and poitive edges.
When you turn on two channels you have 8nS jitter.
With three and four channels active 9nS jitter.
Now I'm having my dinner but I'll post some other pictures later.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 27, 2014, 06:43:44 pm
Quote
What would a trigger output with that much jitter be used for?  Qualifying a logic analyser or word recognizer?

IMHO 3nS jitter on a 100MHZ cheap scope is a decent time and it is difficult to have better results with digital triggers feeded by 1G samples per second. It's just three sample uncertainty.

I am actually surprised they include a trigger output at all but I guess it is easy enough to do.  It is certainly handy for measuring the acquisition rate.

I understand where the jitter and delay come from in the implementation.  Do all DSOs with digital triggering have the same limitation?

I wonder what would be the best way to eliminate it in this type of design short of implementing an external analog trigger which would be unlikely to provide any additionally useful function.  I guess a programmable delay should be all that is needed although that would do nothing to lower the delay.

On two channel DSOs, is there similar jitter between the external trigger and the internal trigger?  If there is the easy way to solve that is to digitize the external trigger and use transition midpoint timing but I have no idea if they go that far.

Quote
Personally I don't use measuring tape when I look for millimeters.

I don't either.

Just the other day I was using the gate out on my 7904 like this to measure jitter at specific trigger levels because analog delayed sweep was not up to the task.  My much slower 7603 at 100 MHz would have worked just as well but the sweep gate output is on the back and difficult to reach.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 27, 2014, 06:49:59 pm
In fact I didn't use two channels.

But neither did the other two people that measured the jitter (if you follow the links I posted above) - they used a second DSO (DS2000) to measure the jitter.

Quote
I just let the scope autooscillate on a single channel after an external stimulus and set the scope to trigger both negative and poitive edges.

I don't think that's going to give you a real world representation of the output jitter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 27, 2014, 07:01:06 pm
Quote
Just the other day I was using the gate out on my 7904 like this to measure jitter at specific trigger levels because analog delayed sweep was not up to the task.  My much slower 7603 at 100 MHz would have worked just as well but the sweep gate output is on the back and difficult to reach.
I still am a proud tek 7854 owner and I know what are you saying.  ^-^

Quote
I wonder what would be the best way to eliminate it in this type of design short of implementing an external analog trigger which would be unlikely to provide any additionally useful function.  I guess a programmable delay should be all that is needed although that would do nothing to lower the delay.
There are several ways but are all expensive if compared to the street price of this scope.


Quote
But neither did the other two people that measured the jitter (if you follow the links I posted above) - they used a second DSO (DS2000) to measure the jitter.
I'm at home now. On monday I'll go to the lab and give that a shot.

Anyway, attached you'll find the 6.4nS jitter when both channel 1 and 2 are on with the same measuring method I used before.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 27, 2014, 07:35:02 pm
A small update:

with the same method and AC coupling for the triggering I can't see the jitter at all.  ;D
And is not affected by the number of turned ON channels.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 27, 2014, 08:42:18 pm
A small update:

with the same method and AC coupling for the triggering I can't see the jitter at all.  ;D
And is not affected by the number of turned ON channels.

So what exactly is being measured here?

The interesting thing would be internal trigger or external trigger in to external trigger out delay and jitter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 27, 2014, 09:03:42 pm
Quote
So what exactly is being measured here?

The interesting thing would be internal trigger or external trigger in to external trigger out delay and jitter.
Since the DS1000z series haven't an external trigger input I have simply connected the trigger out to channel 1 input with a BNC cable.

To let someone else replicate:

If it doesn't start immediately move the trigger level back and forth.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2014, 03:09:12 pm
So....after a bit of back-and-forth it seems clear that the DS1054Z indeed has something like 100MHz bandwidth after inputting the codes.

What we really need is somebody who can do a test before/after, preferably with two scopes side by side. Maybe Dave will do it.

PS: Is there any way to "remove" a key? Some sort of factory reset?

PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...

Then again, what's the worst than can happen? That Rigol sell a load more oscilloscopes? If anybody gets angry at the video it should be Agilent, Tektronix, et. al., not Rigol.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on September 28, 2014, 03:20:07 pm
So just to confirm the 1054z can be changed to 100mhz just like the 1074z?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2014, 03:31:02 pm
PS: How does hacking affect the warranty? Has anybody ever sent a 'scope in for repair with the wrong name in the system info (eg. it says DS1054Z on the hardware and "DS1104Z" on the system info screen).

It's not like anybody opened it up or modified the hardware in any way...all they did was press the buttons on it in a certain sequence.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on September 28, 2014, 03:41:47 pm
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...
There is not much of a video to make about this: you take your serial number, put it in the code generator, take the code the generator spits out and enter it on the scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2014, 04:22:08 pm
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...
There is not much of a video to make about this: you take your serial number, put it in the code generator, take the code the generator spits out and enter it on the scope.

(Maybe you need to look up "brazen" in the dictionary)

Obviously I don't mean the physical process of doing it, more the morality of posting videos about it (and saying "beauty!" at the end).

Would you do it if it was your blog?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 28, 2014, 04:44:09 pm
Quote
PS: Is there any way to "remove" a key? Some sort of factory reset?
Just go to the UltraSigma Utility, send SCPI command
:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall
and reboot the scope.

Tomorrow I'll make the test you are asking for and after I have to return the scope to the owner.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on September 28, 2014, 04:44:37 pm
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...
There is not much of a video to make about this: you take your serial number, put it in the code generator, take the code the generator spits out and enter it on the scope.

(Maybe you need to look up "brazen" in the dictionary)

Obviously I don't mean the physical process of doing it, more the morality of posting videos about it (and saying "beauty!" at the end).

Would you do it if it was your blog?
If Dave starts making videos /promote hacks, its over with the free stuff he gets from Agilent,Fluke and Rigol.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2014, 05:08:11 pm
If Dave starts making videos /promote hacks, its over with the free stuff he gets from Agilent,Fluke and Rigol.

EEVblog #70  ?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on September 28, 2014, 05:45:29 pm
rigol has a way to prevent this, just make DIFFERENT scopes ie front-ends...

 i would say hacking actualy works for them, ie they'll sell more, like i wrote on some yt comment
Quote
as somebody just mentioned 100mhz hack for DS1054Z.... if true, it suggests they think hackability works for them, and if you think about it for a moment, it's quite possible that they sell more scopes in this way... (consumer just thinks he got something for nothing, and consumer likes that! heh...but he did pay for the scope...)

(i mean the hacking just got even easier with z series...that doesn't suggest rigol hates it, does it?)

dave already did it once, so why stop now?
i think that video actually helped sell a awhole lot of 1052 sopes.

also, if your motto is "no script no fear all opinion" do you  have a choice?  ;D

video should be made, because people started to search the yt instead of google.  :-//
(video of 30sec length, just the hack... )

this does void the warranty but what if you have a dealer that will backup your machine prior to shipping it and then put it back in case it needs to go back to rigol on repair?  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 28, 2014, 06:03:44 pm
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...

video should be made, because people started to search the yt instead of google.
(video of 30sec length, just the hack... )

It seems you guys are rather late to the party. We've been discussing, posting, rehashing, etc. about the UltraVision (and other new Rigol products) hacks on this blog for about a year and a half. Why would Dave feel compelled to do a video blog about it now?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2014, 06:55:42 pm
(i mean the hacking just got even easier with z series...that doesn't suggest rigol hates it, does it?)

I agree. I'm 100% sure they could have made this scope so the 100MHz thing didn't work, it's up to their firmware to accept the code or not. Fact is: They just launched a new 'scope with a firmware that appily switches to 100MHz using an existing, widely known key generator.

They knew exactly what would happen and have already crunched the sales numbers.

Thir sales numbers will say: Fungus just bought one, his friend is buying one this week...anybody who sees one will say "Take my money!". They're going to sell a shedload of 'scopes and take the entire home-user market for themselves.

A lot of (most?) serious professionals and education will still pay for the one that says "DS1104Z" on the front. They'll suspect that something has to be different.


Why would Dave feel compelled to do a video blog about it now?

Not a video just about hacking, a video on the DS1054Z itself. We know he's getting one, we kinda know he's going to do a video on it (it's the biggest news in the oscilloscope world for a long time!) Will he mention the hacks?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on September 28, 2014, 07:48:18 pm
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...

video should be made, because people started to search the yt instead of google.
(video of 30sec length, just the hack... )

It seems you guys are rather late to the party. We've been discussing, posting, rehashing, etc. about the UltraVision (and other new Rigol products) hacks on this blog for about a year and a half. Why would Dave feel compelled to do a video blog about it now?
have you tried searching this forum or the web for "DS1054Z"? do you see this thread in those results? or do you see some obvious hints on how to hack it?
don't be shy, input "DS1054Z hacking" in google....

also, why did dave post a video about hacking 1052? heck, all the data was on the web already...right?
(all i'm saying is that i would pay him to do it if i was rigol..ie to do review and end with hacking explained...30sec clip was not reference to dave, he makes longer videos...)

it's all about search and how easy or tough is it to find info. also 1054z is fairly new. even though his "brothers" (ie series) are not.

but yes, i was sleeping (didn't need (another) scope last month or last year) and i have less intention to read 2xx pages of "Sniffing the Rigol's internal I2C bus" thread just to find hacking info and what could go wrong and when.... (rig)lol.  ;)

fungus yes, not everyone will know what is hackable and how, some will just buy a 100mhz "original". (and that makes hack seem even more clever on rigol's behalf...win-win situation! they'll sell more 1054 because of hack, and they'll sell model 11 because somebody doesn't know about the hack...damn.....if you have such ideas you should be monopolist!  :-DD  i mean come on, even the dealers will help you hack it...)

i dunno how many of you are aware about another field where hacking means sales: satellite receivers used in europe.
otoh, hacking also means not everybody will be doing it, but if there ever was a fertile ground for hacking, it's scope users! you buy it because you like to tinker.....

it would be interestign to know how many 1052s rigol made/sold....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 28, 2014, 08:05:42 pm
What versions of firmware are available?  Are these hosted anywhere?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 28, 2014, 09:17:12 pm
have you tried searching this forum or the web for "DS1054Z"? do you see this thread in those results? or do you see some obvious hints on how to hack it?
don't be shy, input "DS1054Z hacking" in google....

Googling "DS1000Z hacking" or "Rigol hacking" would make much more sense. And yes, it's quite easy to find the info on this forum with a slight investment of time.

Quote
also, why did dave post a video about hacking 1052?

That was 4 and 1/2 years - and a much smaller EEVblog - ago.

Quote
it's all about search and how easy or tough is it to find info. also 1054z is fairly new. even though his "brothers" (ie series) are not.

It's easy to find the information.

Quote
and i have less intention to read 2xx pages of "Sniffing the Rigol's internal I2C bus" thread just to find hacking info and what could go wrong and when.... (rig)lol.  ;)

While I appreciate the desire to not have to do any work whatsoever for free stuff, that hardly seems like a great reason for Dave to make a video about it.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on September 28, 2014, 11:06:05 pm
marmad, heh, you need to one me up....  :)

you probably would use 'DS1000Z', as you know about it (and still find zilch, same as search i mentioned). i wouldn't bet all people buying scopes think in series' numbers. infact i would say most would just think more precise info would be found if they input EXACTLY what they have. ie rigol product line/series don't play that much to them.
(this is a usual mistake technically minded folks do, they think everybody is equally tech. minded as them. they also think everybody is an active member of eevblog forum looking for new rigol scopes all the time?  :P)

as for forum search, did you try it? inform us do you get results from this page. or would you like me to make a screenshot?
sure
see attachment....

Quote
That was 4 and 1/2 years - and a much smaller EEVblog - ago.
you seem to be saying that rigol wants this as a dirty lil secret that everybody and nobody knows about?
while you're discussing about it for long time now? and people started to talk about hacking (not just here) as soon as it appeared.
doesn't add up.

Quote
It's easy to find the information.
no. you're biased because you're talking about it for a year and a half.
this scope is so new it's not mentioned that much on the web at all.
people just recently started to buy it and hack it. and are checking the rise/fall times to see if they actually got higher bandwidth.
(i'm talking about checked and rechecked info, ie people trying it and working for them..on this scope..not talking about any other rigol scope)

Quote
While I appreciate your desire to not have to do any work whatsoever for free stuff, that hardly seems like a great reason for Dave to have to make a video about it.
i did my work, didn't i mention the right thread? and key making web-page.
listen, do a bit of a social experiment, tell one of your friends to find instructions how to hack this scope, and inform us how it goes.  ;)
(but don't wait too  much, google will soon find this thread  ;D )
today, your friend would mostly find 1052 hacking info. other info would not be that obvious.

dave will make a review and i don't really care will he mention hack at all. i'm just predicting that rigol can expect higher sales if he does, but i'm not suggesting he will talk about it (if he does) for that reason.
he bought one, so he can say anything he wants about it. and he should. good points, bad points, hacking points.  ;D
i would expect we all give such reviews of the gear we have.
if it's mine, i can hack it.
hell i could try eating those chips and pcbs if i'm inclined so.   >:D

Quote
That would imply I don't how to properly use a search engine.
know how. know-how.  ;)
(you edited/milden it down in meantime...but i'll leave it because you left "much more sense"...heh..but if you prove it, i'll erase all reference to it...)

edit/ it's over, google found us just now, now everybody knows!  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 28, 2014, 11:54:34 pm

Quote
That was 4 and 1/2 years - and a much smaller EEVblog - ago.
you seem to be saying that rigol wants this as a dirty lil secret that everybody and nobody knows about?
while you're discussing about it for long time now? and people started to talk about hacking (not just here) as soon as it appeared.
doesn't add up.
It adds up perfectly.

Rigol, like any other test gear manufacturer, cannot publicly endorse or appear in any way to approve of hacking the capabilities of their products. If they did much of the incentive for corporate and professional purchasers to purchase the upgraded models would vanish.

They may turn a blind eye to discussions in forums such as this, but if promotion of the potential for unlocking capabilities which have not been paid for becomes too blatant they are likely to take action.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on September 29, 2014, 12:03:19 am
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...

I'm getting a loaner unit from the local distributor, so no, I won't be hacking that one out of professional courtesy. But once I get my own paid unit (which will take longer) then I can do with it what I please.
Making a video about it? that is always a grey area. Generally speaking if it involves a license keys in any way, then I believe that case law shows that this can be illegal, and any blogger would be foolish to make a video that involved that. This is also why it is forum policy not to host or post license keys (or firmware) on this forum for example.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 29, 2014, 12:18:05 am
They may turn a blind eye to discussions in forums such as this, but if promotion of the potential for unlocking capabilities which have not been paid for becomes too blatant they are likely to take action.
They have already taken action against the hacks on many of the different models - with varying degrees of success. And it's obvious that they would: there's always going to be some voices in Rigol's management saying that they're losing money because of them. And of course, that leads to less time and energy spent on FW development, new features, debugging, etc.

I've got nothing against people hacking things - but I think it's silly to promote the hacks too blatantly. Anybody that REALLY wants/needs to find the info can locate it.

as for forum search, did you try it? inform us do you get results from this page. or would you like me to make a screenshot?
sure
see attachment....
I think you need to improve your search skills  ;)

Try Googling this: "DS1054Z hack site:https://www.eevblog.com/forum"

It really doesn't take much digging to locate the info.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 12:34:17 am
They have already taken action against the hacks on many of the different models - with varying degrees of success. And it's obvious that they would: there's always going to be some voices in Rigol's management saying that they're losing money because of them.

So why did "Rigol's management" allow a 100MHz upgrade via keygen? It's not a purchaseable option, why is it even in there?

Answer: It's marketing in its purest form.  It's the attention grabber - you can get yourself an expensive scope for the price of a cheap one!

(...by being naughty! And with (almost) zero risk!! What hacker doesn't want that?)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 12:40:26 am
You are assuming and you know what they say about what happens when you ass-u-me.

It's more a development savings by not having to do different models or run different designs and test them individually. Nothing to do with they allowing to purchase the software upgrade or not. Just plain development cost savings.

They have started to lock some of their power supplies, and they did attempt to lock some of their scopes.

Is kind of like NVidia, people are hacking consumer cards to the professional counterparts and I think they just announced that future drivers are going to actually check for the actual hardware to prevent the hacks.

They didn't let it open on purpose but once it's predominant and very public, you bet they are going to take action.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 12:47:57 am
They didn't let it open on purpose

You're saying it was an accident?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 01:12:56 am
No accident, just cheaper to use a single design for both high and low end offerings.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 01:15:42 am
No accident, just cheaper to use a single design for both high and low end offerings.

No argument about the hardware.

What about letting people change the model for a more expensive one by pressing buttons on the front panel. Was that an accident? Absolutely no way they could prevent it...?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 01:32:32 am
They tried to prevent it but they didn't use the algorithm properly and the private key kind of leaked, don't recall the details, they are buried in the monster thread somewhere.

The thing is that this has been going on for decades (selling higher end systems that have the same internals as their lower cost counterpart, but now it's hard to leave things unpopulated so they are software limited), also, as you know, the economy tanked and people became more resourceful and budget oriented. Fixing what they usually threw away, getting he best deal if it can be upgraded is more prevalent now, sure you could overclock PCs and some have done it but was not the norm.

If I had any problem with anything I would make a service call and pay up the inflated repair costs, I don't do that anymore even if i'm out of the hole compared to 5 years ago, but the budget mind took hold over the last 5 years.

Development requires a lot of testing, having a single platform reduces the testing considerably, but they still have to absorb the high end development cost so the higher offering. If I can just populate a connector to get a logic analyzer instead of paying for the full thing, or agilent with their upgradable modules with just the part number in some memory to unlock it, it's just reducing cost and hopping that like before no one will peek inside, but in our new more frugal society, they have to try harder.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 01:45:12 am
They tried to prevent it but they didn't use the algorithm properly and the private key kind of leaked, don't recall the details, they are buried in the monster thread somewhere.

We're talking about the 100MHz upgrade. It's not purchaseable. Why would they allow this change via buttons on the front panel if they didn't want to?

There's no way they couldn't have blocked this when releasing the new 50MHz model (which needed some firmware tweaks and supply chain changes anyway - to make it 50MHz).

PS: Why can't they change the private key if it leaked? Yes, it would be hacked again eventually but it would disrupt the hackers for a while.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 01:51:26 am
We're talking about the 100MHz upgrade. It's not purchaseable. Why would they allow this change via buttons on the front panel if they didn't want to?
Only one hardware/software combination to test and they decided to set it up so they can unlock it  via their options route because it was already implemented.

Quote
There's no way they couldn't have blocked this when releasing the new 50MHz model (which needed some firmware tweaks and supply chain changes anyway - to make it 50MHz).
Then they will have to test them separately, more cost on production and testing.

Quote
PS: Why can't they change the private key if it leaked? Yes, it would be hacked again eventually but it would disrupt the hackers for a while.
Because there are products in the wild already so it's too late.
I believe they actually did in some of their offerings.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 29, 2014, 01:58:16 am
I think in certain environments they sometimes offer a bandwidth upgrade to sweeten the deal.  There was a guy here who bought a DS2072 with a 100M upgrade and they gave me an upgrade key as part of the purchase for example.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 02:17:15 am
We're talking about the 100MHz upgrade. It's not purchaseable. Why would they allow this change via buttons on the front panel if they didn't want to?

Rigol wanted to be able to build one scope and then decide which model it was just before shipping it.

 |O

They also wanted users to be able to change that model by pressing buttons?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 02:35:16 am
No, that was a side effect of being able to do it at the factory.

 |O

But once the model number is set at the factory, is there any reason the firmware should let it be changed afterwards?

ie. The software could look like this:

Code: [Select]
if (currentModel==0x0000) {
  setTheModel();  // nb. This can only be done once
}
else {
  log("Somebody is trying to hack me!");
}
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 02:53:29 am
Is not like they expected someone to be able to bypass their security system.

And you don't know if they designed it to offer future upgrades after being sold in order to get extra sales of customers that bought their lower end scopes. Just because they currently don't sell the upgrades doesn't mean they didn't plan it to be able to.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ziq8tsi on September 29, 2014, 03:15:59 am
Generally speaking if it involves a license keys in any way, then I believe that case law shows that this can be illegal,
Does it?  I cannot see how it can possibly be illegal to buy a device and then type a key into the front panel.  If, however, the hack involves downloading or modifying firmware, then there is clearly a copyright issue.

Anyway, as far as I can see the DS1054Z does not need hacking to be super value.  I am seriously considering ordering one even before you review it, because I think it might go out of stock immediately afterwards.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: moemoe on September 29, 2014, 04:20:11 am
I cannot see how it can possibly be illegal to buy a device and then type a key into the front panel.  If, however, the hack involves downloading or modifying firmware, then there is clearly a copyright issue.
Politicians make stupid laws, they have to do nothing with common sense.

Here in germany, it is illegal to bypass working (wirksam, not 100% sure how to translate it correctly as a legal term) copy protection – which also includes deCSS, which was already broken for years when this law came out.

And, on the same hand, with your argumentation all software keys would be free to share, you don't have to buy it. I'd say, with the riglol key you activate a part of the software you don't have a valid license for.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on September 29, 2014, 04:37:19 am
I cannot see how it can possibly be illegal to buy a device and then type a key into the front panel.  If, however, the hack involves downloading or modifying firmware, then there is clearly a copyright issue.
And, on the same hand, with your argumentation all software keys would be free to share, you don't have to buy it. I'd say, with the riglol key you activate a part of the software you don't have a valid license for.

@ziq8tsi, On the same hand, it should be legal for me to obtain your credit card and all needed codes for me to purchase something and delivered to me out of your money because they are just software codes, that I just enter in a front panel (err website) :)

Edit: got the user wrong
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 09:49:38 am
Yes, that way if they have the programmed scopes in inventory, but they get orders for a different model, they can pull them out of the boxes, reprogram them, and put on new stickers.

Never going to happen.

Edit: But let's assume it did ... they're perfectly capable of flashing a temporary internal-use-only firmware that allows key changes, let it run, then re-flash the latest consumer firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 10:03:27 am
Anyway, as far as I can see the DS1054Z does not need hacking to be super value.

Yep. I would have bought mine anyway.

I am seriously considering ordering one even before you review it, because I think it might go out of stock immediately afterwards.

The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Magnum on September 29, 2014, 11:52:09 am

The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html)

Meilhaus has them on stock: http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm (http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 29, 2014, 11:52:41 am
So why did "Rigol's management" allow a 100MHz upgrade via keygen? It's not a purchaseable option, why is it even in there?

Answer: It's marketing in its purest form.  It's the attention grabber - you can get yourself an expensive scope for the price of a cheap one!

You're perhaps unaware of the history of the firmware/hacking developments. Rigol's DSOs in a particular series (DS1000E, DS1000Z, DS2000, DS4000, etc) have, for a few years already, set their bandwidth based on the model number in memory. My DS2072 thought it was a DS2202 based on it's model number in memory long before hacks for keys were published here.

None of the UltraVision models (DS2000, DS4000, DS6000) had the working code for an upgradeable bandwidth option until it was included in the third (or fourth?) FW version released for the DS2000 models - with Rigol's intention to begin selling BW upgrades along with the other options. But the timing was bad for Rigol (or good - depending on your point of view) because that release happened just before/as the option key system was being hacked here - allowing people to start enabling the extra bandwidth with keys.

Anyone who has examined the FW knows that much of it is ported between all of the various UltraVision models - so the BW option code has found it's way into the newer DS1000Z FW. Certainly, Rigol could have decided to remove that added portion of the code - and perhaps they will at some point - but as many people have pointed out, they are certainly aware of the advantages of the hack on sales, although it's hard to know for sure how 'public' they would want the information to be, before they took more serious steps to try to stop it.

I think Rigol's current thinking on the subject is this: as long as they don't SELL the upgradeable bandwidth option, it's not an actual, sanctioned upgrade. That means that some people are STILL buying the upper-end models, since anyone whose livelihood depends on the higher bandwidth won't risk that the lower-end models with illegal upgrades are exactly equivalent. For those that don't care, the hack provides more incentive for purchase.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 29, 2014, 12:11:28 pm
Did anyone ever figure out the menu 7-6-7-utiity sequence for the ds1000z series yet?

Also, is firmware posted for this model anywhere?  I thought someone had a site where they hosted these things.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 12:32:35 pm
None of the UltraVision models (DS2000, DS4000, DS6000) had the working code for an upgradeable bandwidth option until it was included in the third (or fourth?) FW version released for the DS2000 models - with Rigol's intention to begin selling BW upgrades along with the other options. But the timing was bad for Rigol (or good - depending on your point of view) because that release happened just before/as the option key system was being hacked here - allowing people to start enabling the extra bandwidth with keys.

Right, so the question is: Why wasn't that option removed in the fifth (or later) versions of the firmware?

The only answer that makes sense is that the hacking caused a big spike in sales somewhere, either by:
a) opening up a new market segment (eg. people who buy scopes with their own money), or:
b) taking sales away from manufacturers whose main selling point is "price".

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 29, 2014, 01:00:59 pm
Right, so the question is: Why wasn't that option removed in the fifth (or later) versions of the firmware?

I already answered the question with the final paragraph of my post. But my point was to refute your proposition that the entire thing was a marketing ploy by Rigol from the beginning - the hacking happened simultaneously with the bandwidth upgrade option release - and Rigol tried to prevent the hacking with security measures in subsequent DS2000(A) FW releases.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2014, 01:17:09 pm
my point was to refute your proposition that the entire thing was a marketing ploy by Rigol from the beginning

I don't think I said "from the beginning". Maybe it started accidentally but the continuation seems deliberate.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: littledino2112 on September 29, 2014, 04:13:01 pm
Hi, would anybody be able to send me the eevblog discount? Thanks a bunch :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on September 29, 2014, 06:06:47 pm
Right, so the question is: Why wasn't that option removed in the fifth (or later) versions of the firmware?

The only answer that makes sense is...

You seem to be strangely intent on proving your point, regardless of the cost.  And willing to extend this discussion, ad infinitum.  You've gotten some good background information and explanations from Marmad, yet you're still not satisfied.

Perhaps if you continue long enough, your arguments will convince Rigol of what they "should" be doing, and create custom builds that work with only specific models, and permanently lock out those capabilities.  (Or create roadblocks that none of the people who did all the work to enable the enhancements feel inclined to spend their time on.)

Maybe you just enjoy poking the bear, but from my perspective, such prolonged public discussion and speculation can yield no positive results.  The phrase "looking a gift horse in the mouth" comes to mind.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gmit77 on September 29, 2014, 07:37:19 pm
Batter Fly has stock too, www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z)
also in discounted bundle with HAKKO FX-888D http://www.batterfly.com/shop/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d)

feel free to contact us  :-+


The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html)

Meilhaus has them on stock: http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm (http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: OldEE on September 29, 2014, 08:17:59 pm
Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 0xfede on September 29, 2014, 09:59:14 pm
I have promised some test but today was a busy one. I returned the scope to the owner and I didn't perform any test. Sorry for that.  |O

@OldEE
Quote
Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?
I had a 1054z for few days and personally I don't think it's noisy. Or maybe I'm getting older and I need hearing aid.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LaurentR on September 29, 2014, 10:19:42 pm
Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?

Thanks.

I assume it's the same as on the other DS1000Z (I have a DS1074Z). It's not horrible but it is somewhat noisy. In a quiet setting (my house), I personally found it too tiring and swapped the fan out. In a noisier environment (lab with people, other equipment with fan), it should be fine. YMMV.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 30, 2014, 12:42:34 am
Another forum user with a DS1104Z (Rosendorfer) has noted in another thread a waveform update rate considerably better than Rigol's claimed maximum of 30 000 wfrm/s. I have just run through a few settings and have recorded the following using my DS1054Z:

Timebase (ns)   wfrm/s    data points
524 00060
1032 000120
2030 000240
5063 000600
10023 0001 200
20013 0002 400
5005 7006 000
10002 90012 000

(all figures use Dot mode with Auto memory depth, signal source is 1MHz sine wave, single channel mode).

Using 12K memory depth the scope still delivers 41 000 wfrm/s at 50ns.
Switching to Vector display gives 37 000 wfrm/s at 50ns.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on September 30, 2014, 01:20:45 am
Well, it is time for me to get a 'modern' DSO to go along side my 30yo BWD analog and Kikusui DSO CROs.
Just hobbyist work, and the 1054 looks like the way to go at the moment.

Dave, is your sample coming from Emona? and do they still (I think they used to) do deals for EEVBlog members? I'd like to support local if the pricing isn't too extreme.

- Rob.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Nerull on September 30, 2014, 02:13:08 am
Yes, that way if they have the programmed scopes in inventory, but they get orders for a different model, they can pull them out of the boxes, reprogram them, and put on new stickers.

Never going to happen.

Edit: But let's assume it did ... they're perfectly capable of flashing a temporary internal-use-only firmware that allows key changes, let it run, then re-flash the latest consumer firmware.

Which is still more work and cost than a unified firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 30, 2014, 06:10:00 am
Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?

It definitely has one. Not silent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on September 30, 2014, 06:38:28 am
Dave, is your sample coming from Emona? and do they still (I think they used to) do deals for EEVBlog members? I'd like to support local if the pricing isn't too extreme.

They have never done deals for EEVblog members, their local prices are already very competitive.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aive on September 30, 2014, 06:40:51 am
Well, it is time for me to get a 'modern' DSO to go along side my 30yo BWD analog and Kikusui DSO CROs.
Just hobbyist work, and the 1054 looks like the way to go at the moment.

Dave, is your sample coming from Emona? and do they still (I think they used to) do deals for EEVBlog members? I'd like to support local if the pricing isn't too extreme.

- Rob.

I just placed an order with Emona and it's a 4-5 week lead-time :/
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gmit77 on September 30, 2014, 07:47:16 am
hello we have one Extech 407760 sound meter in stock, we will try that unit to check the noise level of the Rigol DS1054Z
we will then shortly post the result, hope with some images and video
ciao

Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 30, 2014, 09:30:55 am
You seem to be strangely intent on proving your point, regardless of the cost.  And willing to extend this discussion, ad infinitum.  You've gotten some good background information and explanations from Marmad, yet you're still not satisfied.

Marmad can never be wrong and I should shut up. Got it...  :-+

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tom66 on September 30, 2014, 10:25:10 am
Some folks have commented on noisy fans on Rigol scopes.  Anyone care to share an opinion on the DS1054Z fan noise?

Thanks.

Noisy enough to be audible in a quiet lab on my DS1074Z. Much noisier than my laptop or computer.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on September 30, 2014, 11:30:50 am
Thanks Dave.

I knew Tequipment did discounts but I don't know where I got the idea Emona did from.  :-//

Hmm 4-5 week lead time....

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: godFather89 on September 30, 2014, 03:41:41 pm
My DS1054Z should arrive tomorrow. Can't wait to get home (I'm in a trip) to play with it.  8)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on September 30, 2014, 03:45:37 pm
I'm waiting on that UPS truck today...  Hopefully this afternoon and not this evening.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on September 30, 2014, 04:14:04 pm
Mine Thursday or Friday
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 30, 2014, 05:27:48 pm
I've just been playing with the USB/Ethernet interface... you can basically use the 'scope from your desktop PC.

Amazing to see things like this in a bottom-of-the-range oscilloscope that only cost $400. This is the sort of feature that would normally be used to differentiate (eg.) the 1000-series from the 2000-series.

Hats off to Rigol. Again.

I was also looking at the differences between "100MHz" and "50MHz" modes (I figured out how to switch it back&forth between DS1054Z and DS1100Z). On the sort of signals I normally look at, ie. outputs from microcontrollers, there's nothing in it. Less than half a bee's dick. If that.

This confirms my initial suspicions that the 50MHz version is plenty for me (and with multiple channels enabled the two perform exactly the same anyway...)

I might leave it as a DS1054Z just in case it dies and has to be sent back under warranty.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lpc32 on September 30, 2014, 06:22:06 pm
Noisy enough to be audible in a quiet lab on my DS1074Z. Much noisier than my laptop or computer.
Does the internal temperature warrant this?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LaurentR on September 30, 2014, 07:17:12 pm
Noisy enough to be audible in a quiet lab on my DS1074Z. Much noisier than my laptop or computer.
Does the internal temperature warrant this?

Hard to say. The fan is speed-controlled, likely from some internal temperature.

The usual issue with noise on these fans is that, just like on PCs:
* Fans don't do anything for specs, so they use fans that are reliable but cheap, so they the losing part of the trade-off is noise.
* The fan is smaller (cost), so much noisier (speed) than a larger fan with no easy option to replace it by something larger/slower.

In the case of the DS1000Z, the fan is 50mm and runs pretty fast. It's an uncommon size (for a PC fan), and with the high CFM spec, it's hard to find a good replacement that moves enough air and is quiet. I ended up picking up a Gelid Silent 5, which is substantially quieter, but still clearly audible. It's the only "quiet" 50mm fan I found that moves close to the right amount of air.

Laurent
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 30, 2014, 07:30:15 pm
Perhaps someone that owns the DSO (or ANY model of the DS1000Z series) can check and report exactly what the DSO is doing in terms of interpolation at lower sample rates with 1 or 2 channels on? If Rigol reused their code from the DS2000 series, it should be automatically switching from sin(x)/x to linear at 200M or 500MSas/s.

As I showed in this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg519934/#msg519934), it's easy to check.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on September 30, 2014, 08:10:21 pm
Like this?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=110884)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=110888)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=110886)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on September 30, 2014, 08:22:39 pm
Like this?

Yes! Thanks for confirming the AUTO sin(x)/x - linear interpolation switching.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Magnum on September 30, 2014, 09:06:42 pm
Noisy enough to be audible in a quiet lab on my DS1074Z. Much noisier than my laptop or computer.
Does the internal temperature warrant this?

Hard to say. The fan is speed-controlled, likely from some internal temperature.

The usual issue with noise on these fans is that, just like on PCs:
* Fans don't do anything for specs, so they use fans that are reliable but cheap, so they the losing part of the trade-off is noise.
* The fan is smaller (cost), so much noisier (speed) than a larger fan with no easy option to replace it by something larger/slower.

In the case of the DS1000Z, the fan is 50mm and runs pretty fast. It's an uncommon size (for a PC fan), and with the high CFM spec, it's hard to find a good replacement that moves enough air and is quiet. I ended up picking up a Gelid Silent 5, which is substantially quieter, but still clearly audible. It's the only "quiet" 50mm fan I found that moves close to the right amount of air.

Laurent

What specification does the original fan have? 13CFM?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 01, 2014, 01:05:36 am
first impression..... its TINY!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 01, 2014, 02:10:49 am
Darn UPS guy.  After waiting ALL day he tries to deliver it to my neighbor!  Finally got it in my hands at 8:45pm.

fall time of tactile button tied to 5vdc via 1k other side grounded
CH1 1V, offset -1.84V, 5ns timebase
rp1300 probe used for all of it in 10x mode

ds2072/300/hw 1.0.1.0.0      1.150ns fall time
ds2072/300/hw 1.0.2.0.2      1.050ns fall time
ds1074z/stock/hw 0.1.1         1.900ns fall time
ds1074z/100/hw 0.1.1         1.500ns fall time

ds1074z/100/hw 0.1.1         1.600ns-1.700ns fall time (RP2200)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LaurentR on October 01, 2014, 02:37:48 am
What specification does the original fan have? 13CFM?

The fan is a Sunon ME50151V3-000C-A99
DC12V - 0.78W

A datasheet I found says:
12.9CFM
0.14 in H2O
4900RPM
30.1 dBA

The Gelid Silent 5 is:
12.9CFM
2.8mmAq (= 0.11 in H2O I assume)
4000RPM
23dBA

A pretty good match. Same CFM, slightly lower static pressure. My experience is that at low voltage it seems to be moving less air, but at 12V, it feels about the same.
The Gelid comes with a standard PC 3-pin connector. I bought myself the same 2-pin connector the Rigol uses and spliced it (so that I can put back the stock fan if I need to sell the scope or send it to warranty).

For such a high-RPM fan, the Gelid is pretty quiet. Not silent, but quiet.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 01, 2014, 03:33:11 am
It seems to bootup faster than the ds1074z I tried with the original firmware version, 22 seconds or so and I recall the original was 30ish.

The load/save doesn't load/save the measurements still.

It is one heck of a scope for $375 though, build quality seems a little higher to me now, knobs feel nicer, but I'm not sure.

It is nice to see 4 traces on the screen, you can't beat 4 channels.

I wonder how they change the bandwidth between models though, clearly my results above showed it better off in the 100 mode, but the teardown I saw on youtube didn't show a chip like the amplifier in the ds2000 series...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lpc32 on October 01, 2014, 12:50:42 pm
The usual issue with noise on these fans is that, just like on PCs:
* Fans don't do anything for specs, so they use fans that are reliable but cheap, so they the losing part of the trade-off is noise.
* The fan is smaller (cost), so much noisier (speed) than a larger fan with no easy option to replace it by something larger/slower.

In the case of the DS1000Z, the fan is 50mm and runs pretty fast.
They could add to the specs an extra bullet: "silent operation". :) The price difference between a 5cm and an 8cm isn't much, and it might result in better cooling at 1/4 the speed.

I wonder if it's mainly for the ADCs, and if so, what might be the result of higher temperatures.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dentaku on October 01, 2014, 02:50:27 pm
Is there enough room in there for an 8cm fan?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on October 01, 2014, 03:46:10 pm
For such a high-RPM fan, the Gelid is pretty quiet. Not silent, but quiet.

Also a good match: Fractal Design FD-FAN-SSR2-50 R2
    Speed: 3500 +/- 10%
    Max. airflow (CFM): 7.64
    Max. pressure (mm H2O): 1.74
    Noise level (dBA): 20.0

Cheers
hammy
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LaurentR on October 01, 2014, 05:26:55 pm
Is there enough room in there for an 8cm fan?

I should have taken a picture. The fan is stuck between two sheets of metal with no extra room. I don't think you can even fit a 60mm there. You'd need to rework the sheet metal to change the fan size.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 01, 2014, 05:42:56 pm
When my house is quieter in a few hours, I've got a radio shack sound meter I can use to measure the difference between a DS2072 and the DS1054Z...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 01, 2014, 05:48:48 pm
I should have taken a picture. The fan is stuck between two sheets of metal with no extra room. I don't think you can even fit a 60mm there. You'd need to rework the sheet metal to change the fan size.

I have a simpler, no-cost, and no-labor method for blocking fan noise: play music  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mandelbrot on October 01, 2014, 05:54:30 pm
I should have taken a picture. The fan is stuck between two sheets of metal with no extra room. I don't think you can even fit a 60mm there. You'd need to rework the sheet metal to change the fan size.

I have a simpler, no-cost, and no-labor method for blocking fan noise: play music  ;D

Or run an HP3325 or some other loud equipment at the same time to drown it out. ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: soren on October 01, 2014, 05:58:36 pm
Noisy enough to be audible in a quiet lab on my DS1074Z. Much noisier than my laptop or computer.
Does the internal temperature warrant this?

I won't get my DS1054Z until tomorrow, but on my old Siglent SDS1022DL I simply removed the fan as it was completely unnecessary. The hottest parts were the PSU voltage regulators, which got up to about 60 degC. Nothing on the main board was more than 5 degrees above ambient.

Looking at teardown photos of the Rigol, the case doesn't have holes in the case for convection like the Siglent does. Also, the power consumption spec is up to 50W, which if true could be a problem. Still, I suspect that the only likely problem would be cooking the electrolytics in the enclosed power supply. If and when that happens, you just replace the CapXon's with quality parts :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BobCollins on October 01, 2014, 08:43:50 pm
I just received my new DS1054Z an hour ago.  :)

Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

I chatted with TEquipment, who called Rigol during the chat, and was told that Rigol will ship me replacements. :|

Not a great start, but I am still hoping everything else is fine.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 01, 2014, 09:01:55 pm
Interesting, the DS1054Z was about the same as the DS2072 after a few minutes.  I put the radio shack sound level meter about 6" from the left side of each unit where the fan is and set it to slow responding.  The DS2072 when first turned on was very quiet, almost too low to register on the 50dB minimum, but it hung out at 50, 51 and then kept ramping up higher and higher to 54, 55 within a couple of minutes.  The DS1054Z which to me seems a bit louder, starts as 54, 55 and stays there.  Both are noisier than I'd prefer, but not the end of the world.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 01, 2014, 09:25:46 pm
I just received my new DS1054Z an hour ago.  :)

Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

I chatted with TEquipment, who called Rigol during the chat, and was told that Rigol will ship me replacements. :|

Not a great start, but I am still hoping everything else is fine.

whoa, thanks for the heads up , I still havent checked or powered up the unit because of time, will do so ASAP tonight!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 01, 2014, 09:32:03 pm
Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

Bummer, all 4 of mine were good.

I chatted with TEquipment, who called Rigol during the chat, and was told that Rigol will ship me replacements. :|

Maybe you'll get some free probes out of it!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BobCollins on October 02, 2014, 12:28:29 am
I just received my new DS1054Z an hour ago.  :)

Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

I chatted with TEquipment, who called Rigol during the chat, and was told that Rigol will ship me replacements. :|


I received a call from an App Engineer at Rigol this afternoon concerning this issue. He seemed concerned about working this problem. He did say this had happened before, but not often. He asked for the probe package numbers so that he could track the problem down.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 02, 2014, 06:33:53 am
Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

Bummer, all 4 of mine were good.

{grabs the second, so-far-unopened packet of probes and checks...}

 :phew:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 02, 2014, 11:04:13 am
Mine has just been delivered \o/

But UPS took payment for custom charges (from au pair) that I already paid yesterday....  :palm:

Only a few more hours till I get home and play  O0
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 02, 2014, 02:52:32 pm
I just received my new DS1054Z an hour ago.  :)

Three of the four probe clip hoods were defective (just empty plastic shells).  >:(

I chatted with TEquipment, who called Rigol during the chat, and was told that Rigol will ship me replacements. :|

Not a great start, but I am still hoping everything else is fine.

Me too   |O    But just one probe hook for me. No metal part inside...  Luckily, those $10 ebay probe hooks fit well on it, not as nice as the Rigol ones, but still works.   :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hobbyist42 on October 02, 2014, 03:28:30 pm
I received my DS1054Z from Tequipment yesterday.  All the parts and pieces seem to work just fine.  I only had a short time to look over the scope yesterday.

Now I just need to educate myself on how to use all the triggering options.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 02, 2014, 09:05:21 pm
Everything checked out on my scope :), only thing I have to comment on is that the color marker rings dont seem to attach flush on the probes, maybe it  just needs some time to work in the shape ..also the rings come with spares but I'm missing one color
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 02, 2014, 09:07:43 pm
also the rings come with spares but I'm missing one color

With both sets of 2, you should have gotten 4 of each color but only need 2 of each color...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 02, 2014, 09:11:57 pm
also the rings come with spares but I'm missing one color

With both sets of 2, you should have gotten 4 of each color but only need 2 of each color...

Yup, I only have two for the dark blue ones, so no spares for those (and I would not be concerned if not for the fact that the rings dont seem to attach tight to the probes)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 03, 2014, 12:05:17 am
by the way, I noticed on the startup display that the 'installed features' have a trial duration that expires after around 35 hours.....if I do not 'hack' the scope, will all these features go away?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: swperk on October 03, 2014, 12:29:10 am
Just to confirm that my upgraded DS1054Z has a measured bandwidth of ~130 MHz, confirmed both by using a leveled signal generator (looking for the -3 dB point), and a pulse generator with a 70 ps risetime. On the system info screen the system software is 00.04.01.SP2, the board version is 0.1.1, and the model is shown as a DS1104Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 03, 2014, 12:30:59 am
by the way, I noticed on the startup display that the 'installed features' have a trial duration that expires after around 35 hours.....if I do not 'hack' the scope, will all these features go away?

Yes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 03, 2014, 12:31:35 am
Just to confirm that my upgraded DS1054 has a measured bandwidth of ~130 MHz, confirmed both by using a leveled signal generator (looking for the -3 dB point), and a pulse generator with a 70 ps risetime.

What was the rise or fall time?  Some screenshots would be cool to check out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: swperk on October 03, 2014, 12:46:01 am
The actual -3 dB point is about 133 MHz using a leveled signal generator. The scope measures the rise time of the pulse generator as 3.3 ns, so I guess the final answer for the bandwidth depends on whether you use the "traditional" 0.35/(rise time) formula, or if you use the 0.4 to 0.5/(rise time) formula for digital scopes shown in Agilent's (oops, I mean Keysight's) Application Note 1420 "Understanding Oscilloscope Frequency Response and Its Effect on Rise-Time Accuracy." Either way, the bandwidth is plenty high for my needs!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 03, 2014, 01:15:55 am
The fram reset is pressing the 5th option button down on the left side during power up.  It resets and starts up in Chinese.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: konablue on October 03, 2014, 01:17:59 am
Could someone tell me EEV discount for tequipment?
I think I'll get one of these ordered.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2014, 04:53:13 am
Just to confirm that my upgraded DS1054Z has a measured bandwidth of ~130 MHz, confirmed both by using a leveled signal generator (looking for the -3 dB point), and a pulse generator with a 70 ps risetime. On the system info screen the system software is 00.04.01.SP2, the board version is 0.1.1, and the model is shown as a DS1104Z.

What did it have before?

What does if have with different numbers of channels enabled?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BobCollins on October 03, 2014, 03:57:08 pm
The actual -3 dB point is about 133 MHz using a leveled signal generator. The scope measures the rise time of the pulse generator as 3.3 ns, so I guess the final answer for the bandwidth depends on whether you use the "traditional" 0.35/(rise time) formula, or if you use the 0.4 to 0.5/(rise time) formula for digital scopes shown in Agilent's (oops, I mean Keysight's) Application Note 1420 "Understanding Oscilloscope Frequency Response and Its Effect on Rise-Time Accuracy." Either way, the bandwidth is plenty high for my needs!

Hi swperk,

It seems that you both have access to good signal generators and know how to use them. I would be interested in the response of an unhacked DS1054Z. As Fungus asked, it would also be interesting to know the measured effect on bandwidth of having 2 or 4 channels configured.

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2014, 04:02:56 pm
It seems that you both have access to good signal generators and know how to use them. I would be interested in the response of an unhacked DS1054Z. As Fungus asked, it would also be interesting to know the measured effect on bandwidth of having 2 or 4 channels configured.

Switching between DS1054Z and DS1104Z is really easy with the Ultra Sigma utility.

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" to go back to DS1054Z

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" to enter a key, where XXX is your key (without hyphens...)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: crossfireprod on October 03, 2014, 04:10:45 pm
Has anybody seen / heard anything regarding when TEquipment will have these back in stock?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 03, 2014, 04:32:37 pm
Has anybody seen / heard anything regarding when TEquipment will have these back in stock?

Start a quick chat with them, it is easy and they'll let you know!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: swperk on October 03, 2014, 06:14:49 pm
Just to confirm that my upgraded DS1054Z has a measured bandwidth of ~130 MHz, confirmed both by using a leveled signal generator (looking for the -3 dB point), and a pulse generator with a 70 ps risetime. On the system info screen the system software is 00.04.01.SP2, the board version is 0.1.1, and the model is shown as a DS1104Z.

What did it have before?

What does if have with different numbers of channels enabled?

Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

There is no real difference in the bandwidth with multiple channels enabled (see the next paragraph), however, the sample rate drops to 500 MSa/s with two channels enabled, and to 250 MSa/s with three or four channels enabled. The memory depth drops from 24 MSa with one channel to 12 MSa/channel with two channels, and down to 6 MSa/channel with three or four channels enabled.

Because of the slower maximum sample rate with multiple channels enabled, there will be some waveform distortion due to undersampling at the highest sweep speeds. For example, at 5 ns/div a 250 MSa/s sample rate gives only slightly more than one sample per division, so fast waveforms can become very distorted. Changing the acquisition mode to Hi Res or Peak has no particular effect, nor would I expect any, since the samplers are already at their maximum speed. Averaging definitely smooths the waveform, but then there's no way to tell just by looking at it that there's an undersampling problem.

BTW, the risetime of a 70 ps risetime pulse generator as measured by the DS1054Z actually appeared to improve by going from one channel to two channels enabled. That was just an artifact, because the slower sample rate missed some roundoff in the leading edge so the reconstruction by the sin(x)/x interpolator made the edge look faster. Enabling three or four channels slowed the risetime measurement due distortion of the leading edge caused by undersampling.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BobCollins on October 03, 2014, 06:51:44 pm
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

There is no real difference in the bandwidth with multiple channels enabled (see the next paragraph), however, the sample rate drops to 500 MSa/s with two channels enabled, and to 250 MSa/s with three or four channels enabled. The memory depth drops from 24 MSa with one channel to 12 MSa/channel with two channels, and down to 6 MSa/channel with three or four channels enabled.

Because of the slower maximum sample rate with multiple channels enabled, there will be some waveform distortion due to undersampling at the highest sweep speeds. For example, at 5 ns/div a 250 MSa/s sample rate gives only slightly more than one sample per division, so fast waveforms can become very distorted. Changing the acquisition mode to Hi Res or Peak has no particular effect, nor would I expect any, since the samplers are already at their maximum speed. Averaging definitely smooths the waveform, but then there's no way to tell just by looking at it that there's an undersampling problem.

BTW, the risetime of a 70 ps risetime pulse generator as measured by the DS1054Z actually appeared to improve by going from one channel to two channels enabled. That was just an artifact, because the slower sample rate missed some roundoff in the leading edge so the reconstruction by the sin(x)/x interpolator made the edge look faster. Enabling three or four channels slowed the risetime measurement due distortion of the leading edge caused by undersampling.

Thank you!

I have one other question. My new DS1054Z came with a certificate claiming it had been calibrated using a Fluke 9500B Oscilloscope Calibrator. I'm nor sure what calibration means for a digital scope, but do you have any thoughts on whether the frequency range "hack" changes the calibration of the instrument?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: olewales on October 03, 2014, 07:12:04 pm
I've got mine today. First impression: this thing is DENSE. I would never expect it to weigh as much as it does. Thanks to this it does not slide around the bench easily. Screen is very nice but viewing angles are definitely "optimized" to look at it from above . I didn't own an oscilloscope previously but I've used DS1052E occasionally and resolution-wise its like comparing day to night.

Protocol decoders have somewhat limited use but I am very happy about how responsive I2C trigger is to parameter changes. This makes it viable solution to do quick bus scan for addresses in use.

Included probes also feel quite good. I've already managed to puncture my finger with it so I guess they are reasonably sharp.

After some more play-around I'll probably attempt BW upgrade. Is it worth doing a before/after comparison on few Mhz square wave generated by MCU? Will the difference be noticeable?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: crossfireprod on October 03, 2014, 07:14:08 pm
Has anybody seen / heard anything regarding when TEquipment will have these back in stock?

Start a quick chat with them, it is easy and they'll let you know!

TEquipment is saying end of October, for anybody else interested.
This is gonna be a long month to wait...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ragerino on October 03, 2014, 09:01:49 pm
I'm wondering if the waveform generator from the DS1000Z-S versions can be added by adding the two bnc connectors.
Here's a teardown video of a DS1000Z -> http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s (http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Rory on October 03, 2014, 09:12:59 pm
I'm wondering if the waveform generator from the DS1000Z-S versions can be added by adding the two bnc connectors.
Here's a teardown video of a DS1000Z -> http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s (http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s)
[/quote

What about the Source button on the front panel?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: olewales on October 03, 2014, 09:15:07 pm
I'm wondering if the waveform generator from the DS1000Z-S versions can be added by adding the two bnc connectors.
Here's a teardown video of a DS1000Z -> http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s (http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s)

Unlikely. Fitting DACs to all units would not be very cost efficient. Also, there is a cutout on the board in place where gen BNCs would normally go so they are either on separate board in ds1000z-s or the main board is different.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 03, 2014, 09:28:34 pm
The actual -3 dB point is about 133 MHz using a leveled signal generator.

Thanks for that. 

Did you happen to notice how far out the -10dB or -20db points were?  I'm curious about how fast the falloff is, since in 4-channel mode, the extended BW makes things pretty dicey (aka, probable aliasing).  That would not be an issue, with it's original bandwidth.

In other words, if I had one, I think I'd be more likely to bump it to a 1074z model, instead of 1104z.

ADDED:  that's assuming I was going to be using it in 4-channel mode a lot.  Which I probably would be.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 03, 2014, 09:47:52 pm
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

Potentially, that could be a concern.  I.e., software BWL does nothing to eliminate aliasing, because the damage has already been done by then.  (Higher frequency components have already folded back into the pass-band.)  That's why there is a programmable LPF in the gain-stage of the front end, in the first place. 

However, this isn't unexpected, since the chip they're using has no 50 MHz LPF setting.  I'd guess they're using the programmed 70 MHz setting in hardware, which in practice should be fine.  But for those paying attention to small details, the 70 MHz models are only down 3dB at ~90 MHz.  And therefore the more "conservative" 50 MHz BW (with respect to a 4-channel 250 MHz sample rate), doesn't buy you any more immunity from aliasing, because it's imposed in software. 

Assuming of course that swperk is correct (and I believe he is).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ragerino on October 03, 2014, 10:16:11 pm
I'm wondering if the waveform generator from the DS1000Z-S versions can be added by adding the two bnc connectors.
Here's a teardown video of a DS1000Z -> http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s (http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s)

Unlikely. Fitting DACs to all units would not be very cost efficient. Also, there is a cutout on the board in place where gen BNCs would normally go so they are either on separate board in ds1000z-s or the main board is different.

Are you sure, that the board woudl need additonal DACs. What I've seen on the video only the chip for the "not yet available" Logic-Analyzer option and the connectors for the waveform generator are missing. I could imagine that a replacement of the firmware would add the waveform generator.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 03, 2014, 11:09:50 pm
However, this isn't unexpected, since the chip they're using has no 50 MHz LPF setting.  I'd guess they're using the programmed 70 MHz setting in hardware, which in practice should be fine.  But for those paying attention to small details, the 70 MHz models are only down 3dB at ~90 MHz.  And therefore the more "conservative" 50 MHz BW (with respect to a 4-channel 250 MHz sample rate), doesn't buy you any more immunity from aliasing, because it's imposed in software. 

Does the 1000Z series use an amplifier chip like the 2000 series?  I was watching the teardown on youtube, but I didn't see anything like that mentioned....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 04, 2014, 12:45:39 am
Does the 1000Z series use an amplifier chip like the 2000 series?  I was watching the teardown on youtube, but I didn't see anything like that mentioned....

Hey, Alan.  I thought so, but I could be wrong.  I know the DS2000/4000/6000 all do.  But the 1000Z could be an exception.

[But even if not, it still has to have at least a switchable LPF, for 70/100MHz, so my comments above would still apply.  (Unless it had two of them, to enable a hardware 50MHz mode.  Then I'd be FOS.  ;D)]
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: olewales on October 04, 2014, 01:41:43 am
I'm wondering if the waveform generator from the DS1000Z-S versions can be added by adding the two bnc connectors.
Here's a teardown video of a DS1000Z -> http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s (http://youtu.be/xMPPuAOoD8c?t=1m15s)

Unlikely. Fitting DACs to all units would not be very cost efficient. Also, there is a cutout on the board in place where gen BNCs would normally go so they are either on separate board in ds1000z-s or the main board is different.

Are you sure, that the board woudl need additonal DACs. What I've seen on the video only the chip for the "not yet available" Logic-Analyzer option and the connectors for the waveform generator are missing. I could imagine that a replacement of the firmware would add the waveform generator.

Not sure until we'll see some teardown photos of ds1000z-s but there seems to be no circuitry handling analog outputs on the main board and it would be a significant waste of money for rigol to include ICs for features that are not supposed to be present.

Anyway, just upgraded my BW. Attached are some before and after screenshots. Signal generated by IO toggle on msp430. I cannot measure effective bandwidth but trace definitely gained some high frequency details.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 04, 2014, 02:25:15 am
There is a teardown video on youtube.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: godFather89 on October 04, 2014, 07:11:56 am
Has anyone tried just pressing the source button with the front cover off? Maybe it just works with no modification.  :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 04, 2014, 09:04:02 am
Searching for 'Rigol DS1054Z' or 'DS1054Z ' doesn't show it.   Got the URL for the teardown video please ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: godFather89 on October 04, 2014, 09:12:07 am
What URL? For the source button? The source button is present only on DS1000Z-S. Still, I'm sure it's on the PCB of DS1054Z. From the 1074Z teardown, I don't see any connectors for the signal generator. Maybe it's just a software feature.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 04, 2014, 09:20:05 am
I clicked on Reply to the wrong post.

The URL for the teardown video is what I was looking for thanks.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 04, 2014, 11:18:40 am
What did it have before?

What does if have with different numbers of channels enabled?

Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

There is no real difference in the bandwidth with multiple channels enabled

Thanks! That's exactly what I (and probably lots of others) wanted to know.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 04, 2014, 12:26:41 pm
1000Z teardown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 04, 2014, 01:05:30 pm
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

Potentially, that could be a concern.  I.e., software BWL does nothing to eliminate aliasing, because the damage has already been done by then.  (Higher frequency components have already folded back into the pass-band.)  That's why there is a programmable LPF in the gain-stage of the front end, in the first place.
The simplest way to avoid that would be to apply the programmable filter at the full 200+MSPS regardless of time base and then down-sample to whatever output sample rate from there. You need little more than an FIR filter for that, which takes a trivial amount of space in modern FPGAs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 04, 2014, 01:55:51 pm
1000Z teardown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c)

I've seen that one thanks.  He was spot on when he commented that it looked like a mixed signal scope could be on the cards.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 05, 2014, 12:02:55 pm
Potentially, that could be a concern.  I.e., software BWL does nothing to eliminate aliasing, because the damage has already been done by then.  (Higher frequency components have already folded back into the pass-band.)  That's why there is a programmable LPF in the gain-stage of the front end, in the first place.

The simplest way to avoid that would be to apply the programmable filter at the full 200+MSPS regardless of time base and then down-sample to whatever output sample rate from there. You need little more than an FIR filter for that, which takes a trivial amount of space in modern FPGAs.

Some DSOs work this way but it has drawbacks and less expensive oscilloscopes usually have different maximum sample rates depending on how many channels are active.  It would be really annoying if the character of each vertical input changed more than necessary depending on how many channels are active.  For a similar reason, a Nyquist filter which scales with sample rate is a bad idea in an oscilloscope.

DSP bandwidth filtering also tends to screw up the transient response.  I ran across this on a Tektronix MSO5204 that I evaluated a couple years ago; the transient response changed significantly between the analog and digital filters of the same cutoff frequency.  I suspect now this had to do with the Gibbs phenomenon.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 05, 2014, 02:49:29 pm
Some DSOs work this way but it has drawbacks and less expensive oscilloscopes usually have different maximum sample rates depending on how many channels are active.
That's why I used 200+MSPS in my hypothetical scenario instead of 1GSPS: the DS1000z has 250MSPS with all four channels enabled.

A properly designed FIR filter will not 'screw' the transient response any worse than extra orders of analog filtering do assuming the analog front-end does a good job of eliminating signal beyond Nyquist. To accommodate different input sampling rates when turning channels on/off, you simply need a set of matching FIR filter coefficients for each input rate.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: swperk on October 05, 2014, 05:50:05 pm
The actual -3 dB point is about 133 MHz using a leveled signal generator.

Thanks for that. 

Did you happen to notice how far out the -10dB or -20db points were?  I'm curious about how fast the falloff is, since in 4-channel mode, the extended BW makes things pretty dicey (aka, probable aliasing).  That would not be an issue, with it's original bandwidth.

In other words, if I had one, I think I'd be more likely to bump it to a 1074z model, instead of 1104z.

ADDED:  that's assuming I was going to be using it in 4-channel mode a lot.  Which I probably would be.

I just remeasured my "upgraded" DS1054Z bandwidth points. I used the amplitude of a 10 MHz sinewave input as my reference level, as I've observed that the amplitude drops by about 1.5 dB at 100 MHz as compared to the level at 10 MHz. I set my Agilent E4436B to deliver a signal that measured 0 dBm at the 50 ohm terminated scope input. I had only Channel 1 active so the scope would sample at 1 GSa/s to ensure the best waveform fidelity. Here are my results:

Frequency      Amplitude
  10 MHz          0.0 dBm
100 MHz         -1.5 dBm
150 MHz         -3.0 dBm
393 MHz        -10.0 dBm
447 MHz        -20.0 dBm

As would be expected, the waveform above 400 MHz became quite distorted (it looked like an amplitude modulated carrier) because of undersampling, but surprisingly, the triggering was rock-solid all the way up. The frequency measurement by the scope was reasonably accurate as well, except that at frequencies above 400 MHz the displayed value jumped around quite a bit. At 500 MHz, the amplitude dropped to 0 (Nyquist frequency).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: olewales on October 05, 2014, 06:56:06 pm
Solid piece of valuable info. Thank you.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2014, 08:01:06 pm
I think I hate the multifunction knob.

When I open up a menu with a lot of selections, scroll down to the one I want... it quite often jumps the the next selection when I press the knob to select it. So annoying.

It would be so much nicer if there was a separate "Enter" button, or even if I could just press the same button that opened the menu to close the menu again (selecting the new value, obviously).

Pressing a menu button multiple times should just repeatedly open/close the menu without changing the value.

If you want to go up/down to a new value in the menu by pressing buttons instead of using the multifunction knob you could use the blue up/down arrows, not the button that opened the menu.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 05, 2014, 08:21:30 pm
I think I hate the multifunction knob.
Yes, selecting things with the multifunction knobs on Rigols (and some Siglents also) can be a pain in the ass.

If you want to experience very few skips when selecting, it helps if you can develop a specific way of holding and turning it when selecting things: for me, my thumb is on the bottom edge of the knob front, while my index finger is on the top edge at the very back of the knob (snug against the case), with my hand supported by my 3 free fingers. The knob is turned precisely with opposing motions of the thumb and index finger (their positions don't change), and when the desired selection is reached, my grip tightens slightly with my index finger pushing slightly down and back against the case - while the thumb pushes slightly up and inward - essentially locking the knob from rotating during the click. It works pretty well most of the time.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=73929)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2014, 08:45:31 pm
It works pretty well most of the time.

"Most"?

I wonder if we can get Dave to rant about it in his video. Maybe they'll do something....It just seems unnecessary to have to push that fiddly little knob with all those other buttons lying around.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: true on October 05, 2014, 08:51:59 pm
I got used to it, but it took a long time. I agree, it's awful. Also awful is the lack of any kind of acceleration / speed control, and sometimes the knob is just somewhat unresponsive, or overresponsive. I don't get it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 05, 2014, 08:56:26 pm
"Most"?

Yes, I'd say 98% of the time. Nothing is foolproof.

Quote
I wonder if we can get Dave to rant about it in his video. Maybe they'll do something....It just seems unnecessary to have to push that fiddly little knob with all those other buttons lying around.

Again, this is a problem that has been around for YEARS already: the DS1000E has it (and probably most other Rigol products) - plus it stretches across Chinese brands: e.g. the new Siglent SDS2000 series has it. The Chinese (at least the brands that I have tested) don't seem to be able to properly write the code for selecting from a non-indented rotary encoder.

Whether they add more code for selecting a different way other than using the multifunction knob (which wouldn't be a bad idea), I don't see them solving the selection problem using the encoder anytime soon (since it seems to have eluded them for years).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 05, 2014, 08:57:26 pm
Is the issue that it moves when pressing the button, or that it has a delay before reaching its final location.  If I wait for it to stop on a selection, then carefully press the button straight on with no rotation, it usually works fine.

Acceleration would be great for trying to get those large value changes though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 05, 2014, 09:04:28 pm
Acceleration would be great for trying to get those large value changes though.

That's one of the reasons I think the DS2000 is so nice = acceleration via the navigation knob.  When I was reviewing the Siglent SDS2000 recently, it was driving me crazy every time I had to get through a large selection of numbers via the multifunction knob.... sooo slow... but on the DS2000, just zip right to the end  ^-^
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on October 05, 2014, 09:32:19 pm
Acceleration would be great for trying to get those large value changes though.

That's one of the reasons I think the DS2000 is so nice = acceleration via the navigation knob.  When I was reviewing the Siglent SDS2000 recently, it was driving me crazy every time I had to get through a large selection of numbers via the multifunction knob.... sooo slow... but on the DS2000, just zip right to the end  ^-^
Re Multifunction knob, could this be improved with a different unit ie. with a much softer "push to select"?
It seems many DSO's suffer this problem, maybe it is a symptom of just what hardware is available?
The programmed code is another matter, the Chinese are improving and the SDS2000 improvements during the early firmware updates are proof of this.
Hopefully more refinements to come.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: olewales on October 05, 2014, 09:37:25 pm
Acceleration would be great for trying to get those large value changes though.

"Editor" you get by pressing the knob while adjusting numerical value helps a little, but yeah, adjusting things like holdoff could be way easier.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 05, 2014, 09:41:03 pm
Re Multifunction knob, could this be improved with a different unit ie. with a much softer "push to select"?

That could make matters worse.

Quote
It seems many DSO's suffer this problem, maybe it is a symptom of just what hardware is available?

Having written a lot of code for movement of cursors and selecting, it's definitely something that can be a bit tricky - especially if you want the same knob to be able to move through selections reasonably fast (it's much easier if the movement is always slow). I'm not sure it's possible to get it 100% right for 100% of the people, but it would help matters if the companies allowed you to set the lower sensitivity of the knob to your own taste with a persistent variable (plus acceleration).

Also, as Fungus mentioned, it would be handy if there were more than one way to move the cursor and select.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ziq8tsi on October 05, 2014, 09:42:55 pm
When I open up a menu with a lot of selections, scroll down to the one I want... it quite often jumps the the next selection when I press the knob to select it. So annoying.
If I remember correctly, Connor Wolf mentioned exactly that issue in one of his youtube videos about the 1000Z series.

I wonder if Rigol could fix it in software by slightly delaying the response to rotation, and ignoring it when followed immediately by a click.

As an aside, I have a Microsoft Comfort Mouse with exactly the opposite workaround.  It delays reporting clicks of the scroll wheel by 50ms, presumably so software can more easily ignore accidental clicks during scrolling.  This firmware feature badly broke my workflow, because in X11 the scroll wheel click is just the middle button, and it is not uncommon to click or drag with it.  The delay meant I was often clicking or dragging the wrong screen item.  Luckily the PCB had unpopulated footprints for the side buttons of a different model, and the firmware happily reported them, so I was able to bodgewire the scoll click to an undelayed button and then remap it in software.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 05, 2014, 11:31:44 pm
I think I hate the multifunction knob.

When I open up a menu with a lot of selections, scroll down to the one I want... it quite often jumps the the next selection when I press the knob to select it. So annoying.

It would be so much nicer if there was a separate "Enter" button, or even if I could just press the same button that opened the menu to close the menu again (selecting the new value, obviously).

Pressing a menu button multiple times should just repeatedly open/close the menu without changing the value.

If you want to go up/down to a new value in the menu by pressing buttons instead of using the multifunction knob you could use the blue up/down arrows, not the button that opened the menu.

There is a way to select menu values without touching the multifunction knob. As you noted, pressing the menu button changes the value. Having done this, pressing either of the light blue up/down buttons selects the new value permanently.

Doing this can have an advantage over using the multifunction knob in that the value takes effect on screen as soon as the menu button is pressed.

For the longer menus you can also spin the multifunction knob to the value above the one you want, press the menu button to select it, and then press an up/down button to implement it permanently. It doesn't work the other way around - if you use the knob after the menu button the up/down button selection jumps back to the value chosen by the menu button.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 05, 2014, 11:33:32 pm
I just remeasured my "upgraded" DS1054Z bandwidth points. I used the amplitude of a 10 MHz sinewave input as my reference level, as I've observed that the amplitude drops by about 1.5 dB at 100 MHz as compared to the level at 10 MHz. I set my Agilent E4436B to deliver a signal that measured 0 dBm at the 50 ohm terminated scope input. I had only Channel 1 active so the scope would sample at 1 GSa/s to ensure the best waveform fidelity. Here are my results:

Frequency      Amplitude
  10 MHz          0.0 dBm
100 MHz         -1.5 dBm
150 MHz         -3.0 dBm
393 MHz        -10.0 dBm
447 MHz        -20.0 dBm

Thanks for taking the time to run the additional tests.  It's much appreciated.   :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 05, 2014, 11:45:45 pm
Yes, selecting things with the multifunction knobs on Rigols (and some Siglents also) can be a pain in the ass.

...it helps if you can develop a specific way of holding and turning it when selecting things...

Hey!  I thought Apple had a patent on "You're holding it wrong".

Less facetiously, this is a serious usability problem, that scope manufacturers could solve easily in their firmware. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 06, 2014, 12:04:47 am
Frequency      Amplitude
  10 MHz          0.0 dBm
100 MHz         -1.5 dBm
150 MHz         -3.0 dBm
393 MHz        -10.0 dBm
447 MHz        -20.0 dBm


As would be expected, the waveform above 400 MHz became quite distorted (it looked like an amplitude modulated carrier) because of undersampling, but surprisingly, the triggering was rock-solid all the way up. The frequency measurement by the scope was reasonably accurate as well, except that at frequencies above 400 MHz the displayed value jumped around quite a bit.

Not bad performance at all, for a "50 MHz" economy scope.  [emphasis added]
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 06, 2014, 12:12:49 am
More seriously, this is a serious usability problem, that scope manufacturers could solve easily in their firmware.

I don't agree that it can be 'easily' solved in firmware - or at least, not easily solved for all users all of the time. Every single device I own that is a complex combination of hardware/software buttons has UI mistakes that crop up from time to time (the iPhone jumps selections and misses presses, etc.) - although, granted, perhaps not as often as this; I certainly would agree that it could be better than it is.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 06, 2014, 12:22:27 am
More seriously, this is a serious usability problem, that scope manufacturers could solve easily in their firmware.

I don't agree that it can be 'easily' solved in firmware - or at least, not easily solved for all users all of the time. Every single device I own that is a complex combination of hardware/software buttons has UI mistakes that crop up from time to time (the iPhone jumps selections and misses presses, etc.) - although, granted, perhaps not as often as this; I certainly would agree that it could be better than it is.

Well, I never said (or meant) for ALL users ALL the time.  I agree that would be a difficult challenge.  (Can you ever please everybody?)  OTOH, I do believe it could be resolved for ALL users MOST of the time.  And even perhaps MOST users ALL the time.   :box:   ;)

But we're on the same page as far as potential for radical improvements, that would not be all that hard to achieve.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 06, 2014, 12:36:12 am
But we're on the same page as far as potential for radical improvements, that would not be all that hard to achieve.

Radical? I wonder. The fact that it works about exactly the same as it did on the Rigol DS1052E that I used (released in 2008?) and on the newest Siglent seems to indicate that either the Chinese push knobs in a much different fashion than Westerners do - or that they're having problems getting it to work much better than it does.

Personally, I think the idea of pushing a rotating knob to select something which has been highlighted by the rotation is a bad idea to begin with - in a number of different ways. It's both non-intuitive, more physically wearing on the encoder, and harder to code correctly. I'd much rather have a selection button right next to the knob, but it's simply done as a cost/real estate-saving measure.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 06, 2014, 12:44:55 am
Personally, I think the idea of pushing a rotating knob to select something which has been highlighted by the rotation is a bad idea to begin with - in a number of different ways. It's both non-intuitive, more physically wearing on the encoder, and harder to code correctly. I'd much rather have a selection button right next to the knob, but it's simply done as a cost/real estate-saving measure.

At least Rigol offer an alternative selection mechanism on the DS1000Z series.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 08:23:16 am
Is the issue that it moves when pressing the button, or that it has a delay before reaching its final location.

It moves when you press the knob.

If I wait for it to stop on a selection, then carefully press the button straight on with no rotation, it usually works fine.

"Usually" is not "always". It should be "always".

I'm guessing the problem is that sometimes you stop turning it very close to a threshold point and the tiniest movement can make it jump to the next option.

This is because it's not a knob with indents, yes, but putting in a clicky knob wouldn't totally 'fix' it, it's a broken paradigm (IMHO). It needs a separate button. The most intuitive choice (to me) is to push the same button that opened the menu.

PS: Some people have shaky hands...it must be almost unusable for them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 08:42:23 am
Personally, I think the idea of pushing a rotating knob to select something which has been highlighted by the rotation is a bad idea to begin with - in a number of different ways. It's both non-intuitive, more physically wearing on the encoder, and harder to code correctly.

Yep.

I'd much rather have a selection button right next to the knob, but it's simply done as a cost/real estate-saving measure.

I've already mentioned ways to do it better... but how about that great big "Clear" button right above the multifunction knob? It would make a great "Enter" button with no extra hardware cost (just a firmware change - make it act as "Enter" whenever a menu is open).

FWIW: I don't think I've actually pushed the "clear" button yet. Is the "Clear" function really useful enough to be chosen for the 'first' (ie. top-left) button on the device? The waveform already clears when you press "Single" and I'm sure the "clear" function could be moved into each channel's soft menu with no loss of function (Just press the channel button then "Clear" in the side menu).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 06, 2014, 08:45:14 am
The most intuitive choice (to me) is to push the same button that opened the menu.

I agree, but the Rigol UI designer(s) may have thought that that clashed with the toggle effect when a menu item has only two options.

Thus they chose pressing the menu button to change the setting and pressing the up/down buttons to select it permanently. It's back to front, but at least it works and avoids using the knob.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 08:53:13 am
Thus they chose pressing the menu button to change the setting and pressing the up/down buttons to select it permanently. It's back to front, but at least it works and avoids using the knob.

"Chose"?

I don't think that method is intentional ... I think they made a crap design and you just figured out a way to beat the system.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on October 06, 2014, 09:10:31 am
Is the issue that it moves when pressing the button, or that it has a delay before reaching its final location.

It moves when you press the knob.

If I wait for it to stop on a selection, then carefully press the button straight on with no rotation, it usually works fine.

"Usually" is not "always". It should be "always".

I'm guessing the problem is that sometimes you stop turning it very close to a threshold point and the tiniest movement can make it jump to the next option.

This is because it's not a knob with indents, yes, but putting in a clicky knob wouldn't totally 'fix' it, it's a broken paradigm (IMHO). It needs a separate button. The most intuitive choice (to me) is to push the same button that opened the menu.

PS: Some people have shaky hands...it must be almost unusable for them.
Sounds like a detented encoder like in the Siglent SDS2000 is needed.
While they are not the perfect fix, with good code they are quite usable.
Just don't expect perfection and manufacturers should not attempt to do EVERYTHING with one.
Surprising that detented type was not included with all the frustration that multifunction knobs create and is vented in this forum.

So does the famous Rigol knob swap still survive?  :-/O
Some Siglent models use it too.  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poida_pie on October 06, 2014, 09:42:32 am
Fungus: ". but how about that great big "Clear" button right above the multifunction knob? It would make a great "Enter" button with no extra hardware cost (just a firmware change - make it act as "Enter" whenever a menu is open)."

YES! THIS PLEASE.
It must be simple to change the firmware to permit this function to be enabled/disabled via some system setting
in a future firmware update.
Please Rigol, can you do this?

The multi-function knob on my DS2072 works in accordance to specifications but there are times when you want to pick up
the DSO and throw it against a wall when it tediously continues to pick the next option - not the selected one.
Marmad's technique is not a complete fix, it merely reduces the annoyance to some degree. Not still tolerable by my measure.
With an <enter> button there will be no mistaking the user's intent.


 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 09:57:15 am
Fungus: ". but how about that great big "Clear" button right above the multifunction knob? It would make a great "Enter" button with no extra hardware cost (just a firmware change - make it act as "Enter" whenever a menu is open)."

YES! THIS PLEASE.
It must be simple to change the firmware to permit this function to be enabled/disabled via some system setting
in a future firmware update.
Please Rigol, can you do this?

There's no excuse:

The multifunction knob already acts differently when a menu is open so a function to test if a menu is open already exists in the firmware.

I bet this change could be done in five minutes + half a dozen lines of code.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ragerino on October 06, 2014, 10:28:33 am
Be aware that the Meilhaus availability status is not correct!

Meilhaus contacted me this morning to let me know that they are on backorder and i will receive my Oszilloscope at begin of November. I checked on their homepage and they are still showing the status as green icon.


The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html)

Meilhaus has them on stock: http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm (http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 06, 2014, 11:15:03 am
Sounds like a detented encoder like in the Siglent SDS2000 is needed.
It is not really needed: you simply need to code a dead-zone in the software to ignore movement below a certain speed or require a minimum amount of movement after the last stop before accepting movement again.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: godFather89 on October 06, 2014, 11:21:41 am
Dave hasn't got his scope yet?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 06, 2014, 12:30:52 pm
Sounds like a detented encoder like in the Siglent SDS2000 is needed.
It is not really needed: you simply need to code a dead-zone in the software to ignore movement below a certain speed or require a minimum amount of movement after the last stop before accepting movement again.

I have seen other instruments which apparently did something like this because they do not suffer from this problem even without detents.  The ancient Tektronix 2232 has a momentary push rotary control and uses variable programmed hysteresis in the rotation which is both very simple and very effective.  If I try, I cannot even make it glitch.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 01:05:23 pm
Sounds like a detented encoder like in the Siglent SDS2000 is needed.
It is not really needed: you simply need to code a dead-zone in the software to ignore movement below a certain speed or require a minimum amount of movement after the last stop before accepting movement again.

Much better to fix the underlying problem than fiddle around fine tuning the percentage of times it happens to people.

It's not as if there's a shortage of buttons to choose from...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 06, 2014, 01:11:20 pm
Sounds like a detented encoder like in the Siglent SDS2000 is needed.

@tautech - I'm not sure what you're referring to. Unless Siglent has changed their production of the SDS series since my recent review, the universal (multifunction) knob is NON-indented, and suffers from the same problem as the Rigol. In fact, it might be a little worse on the Siglent because of the wobble in the encoder shaft, which is lacking on the Rigol.

It is not really needed: you simply need to code a dead-zone in the software to ignore movement below a certain speed or require a minimum amount of movement after the last stop before accepting movement again.

This introduces a stutter or lag in the movement when moving slowly, slowing down, speeding up, etc. - perhaps better, but also not an ideal solution.

The ancient Tektronix 2232 has a momentary push rotary control and uses variable programmed hysteresis in the rotation which is both very simple and very effective.  If I try, I cannot even make it glitch.

Well, we'll just have to accept your claim that the Tek knob is impossible to glitch, with smooth movement over all speeds it can possibly be turned at. Nevertheless, from a UI point of view, having to push something which rotates (except for the simplest toggling - e.g. coarse/fine) is a stupid idea on many levels and should be dropped completely from design.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 06, 2014, 01:18:16 pm
Dave hasn't got his scope yet?
No,

All the Rigol scopes meant for Australia have been sent to Europe  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 01:28:50 pm
All the Rigol scopes meant for Australia have been sent to Europe  ;D

There's none left in Europe either. Looks like I did the right thing by grabbing mine the very first day. 8)

Nevertheless, from a UI point of view, having to push something which rotates (except for the simplest toggling - e.g. coarse/fine) is a stupid idea on many levels and should be dropped completely from design.

Yep.

Actually, I quite like pushing the horizontal scale knob to go into zoom mode. That one works for me. :-)

(Weirdly enough, it's the only push-function which isn't marked on the front panel...you have to find that one by accident)


For frequent menu selections though? Nope.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 06, 2014, 01:32:33 pm
All the Rigol scopes meant for Australia have been sent to Europe  ;D

There's none left in Europe either. Looks like I did the right thing by grabbing mine the very first day. 8)

Nevertheless, from a UI point of view, having to push something which rotates (except for the simplest toggling - e.g. coarse/fine) is a stupid idea on many levels and should be dropped completely from design.

Yep.

Actually, I quite like pushing the horizontal scale knob to go into zoom mode. That one works for me. :-)

(Weirdly enough, it's the only push-function which isn't marked on the front panel...you have to find that one by accident)


For frequent menu selections though? Nope.

AR Benelux still has stock
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 06, 2014, 01:40:06 pm
Actually, I quite like pushing the horizontal scale knob to go into zoom mode. That one works for me. :-)

Sure, for any function which is a simple toggle (Zoom/Normal - Coarse/Fine), or any function which automatically overrides any drift of the knob caused by the push (any Zero Position) - pushing works just fine every time.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: soren on October 06, 2014, 02:31:10 pm
Be aware that the Meilhaus availability status is not correct!

Meilhaus contacted me this morning to let me know that they are on backorder and i will receive my Oszilloscope at begin of November. I checked on their homepage and they are still showing the status as green icon.

That's too bad. I ordered mine on the 29th and received it three days later, so they did have at least some units in stock. That odd "** Subject to being unsold" line did give me pause.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bzzz on October 06, 2014, 03:06:30 pm
Be aware that the Meilhaus availability status is not correct!

Meilhaus contacted me this morning to let me know that they are on backorder and i will receive my Oszilloscope at begin of November. I checked on their homepage and they are still showing the status as green icon.


The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html)

Meilhaus has them on stock: http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm (http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm)

I wondered why Meilhaus has them on stock while Batronix is struggling to get new devices within 3 weeks...well, faking the availability status is one way to influence the buyer ;) I don't know Batronix, but Meilhaus offers some excellent RS232 converters, I don't think they need to trick their customers in that way. Let's see if the status changes, when in doubt, I buy from the guys that are honest with their availability, even if it takes longer in total.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 06, 2014, 04:17:31 pm
A German friend heard that a new container with DS1054Z scopes will not arrive before November 4th.
Guess I ordered my scope just in time last week in the Netherlands. I'm very happy with it :)

Regards,
Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 06, 2014, 05:42:29 pm
The ancient Tektronix 2232 has a momentary push rotary control and uses variable programmed hysteresis in the rotation which is both very simple and very effective.  If I try, I cannot even make it glitch.

Well, we'll just have to accept your claim that the Tek knob is impossible to glitch, with smooth movement over all speeds it can possibly be turned at. Nevertheless, from a UI point of view, having to push something which rotates (except for the simplest toggling - e.g. coarse/fine) is a stupid idea on many levels and should be dropped completely from design.

When used to make a menu selection, it appears to use about 5 or 6 steps per rotation with matching hysteresis.  When used for cursor control with push selecting between cursors, it appears to use about 15 steps per revolution also with matching hysteresis but response is non-linear for fast rotations.  I wonder how old the patent is on control acceleration.

Native resolution is about 1200 counts per revolution using a 10 bit ADC which is a lot higher than the expected mechanical resolution; two potentiometers locked together and rotated 180 degrees are encoded separately to remove the dead zone of a single potentiometer in lieu of an optical or mechanical rotary encoder. 

I do not disagree that it is a bad idea but good implementations work well enough.  I have run across poor implementations before where it was difficult to press the control without changing the selection or position which is why I was pleasantly surprised that Tektronix managed to implement it without problems on such an old instrument.  They used the same rotary control implementation for a decade or more in different instruments but the 2232 and close cousins are the only ones I know from that era which had this rotary control combined with a push control.  Maybe they decided it was a bad idea at the time but their current models do it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2014, 06:17:02 pm
I wonder how old the patent is on control acceleration.

The DS1054Z seems to do some sort of acceleration when you're in 'zoom' mode (press the horizontal scale button). It's not brilliant though, could be improved.

two potentiometers locked together and rotated 180 degrees are encoded separately to remove the dead zone of a single potentiometer in lieu of an optical or mechanical rotary encoder. 

On a completely different note: Does anybody know what kind of encoders Rigol uses for their knobs? Optical? Mechanical? Magnetic? Plain old potentiometer?

I'm just wondering how long they're going to last...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 06, 2014, 11:24:50 pm

On a completely different note: Does anybody know what kind of encoders Rigol uses for their knobs? Optical? Mechanical? Magnetic? Plain old potentiometer?

I'm just wondering how long they're going to last...

They will be mechanical contacting rotary encoders. Good quality brands can last for 100,000 revolutions or more, although it seems the encoders in the old DS1052E are known for failing/becoming erratic - hopefully Rigol have raised their game.

Optical or magnetic encoders would be great, but as noted recently in another thread they are still bafflingly expensive given how simple their construction can be.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 07, 2014, 05:02:00 am
Wow, I thought self-cal was slow, but try saving a big waveform.... Had to leave it overnight, output size was only 11.4MB (4 x 3mb), but it took at least 3 hours to save...  :wtf:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mrbook on October 07, 2014, 04:22:57 pm
Would someone mind sending me the tequipment.net EEVBlog discount code  :-+

Thinking about picking up this scope.

Thanks,

mrbook
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JDubU on October 07, 2014, 04:39:22 pm
Would someone mind sending me the tequipment.net EEVBlog discount code  :-+

Thinking about picking up this scope.

Just call them and tell them that you are an EEVBlog forum member.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mrbook on October 07, 2014, 04:47:00 pm
Thanks for the PM's everyone.

mrbook
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Phil_L on October 07, 2014, 06:32:57 pm
Wow, I thought self-cal was slow, but try saving a big waveform.... Had to leave it overnight, output size was only 11.4MB (4 x 3mb), but it took at least 3 hours to save...  :wtf:

I got caught out by that one yesterday saving a CSV to my flash drive, I was certain it had crashed but it finished eventually.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mandelbrot on October 07, 2014, 08:05:48 pm
Just got my DS1054Z after UPS screwed up and lost two of the trucks it was on and all four of the probes were missing the contacts on the hooks. I was told from TEquipment that this is common, and I've already seen it mentioned on this thread, but supposedly Rigol is doing something about it? I have three exams this week so I won't be able to play with it much until the weekend...

Interestingly, my free AC voltage detector arrived on Friday while my scope didn't arrive until today (Tuesday) even though they were shipped from the same place within half an hour of each other. I can't even guess how this would have happened logistically.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on October 07, 2014, 08:27:25 pm
Just got my DS1054Z after UPS screwed up and lost two of the trucks it was on and all four of the probes were missing the contacts on the hooks. I was told from TEquipment that this is common, and I've already seen it mentioned on this thread, but supposedly Rigol is doing something about it? I have three exams this week so I won't be able to play with it much until the weekend...

Interestingly, my free AC voltage detector arrived on Friday while my scope didn't arrive until today (Tuesday) even though they were shipped from the same place within half an hour of each other. I can't even guess how this would have happened logistically.
TEquipment has different warehouses, so your full order may be packed and shipped in different boxes from multiple locations. Can be confusing the first time you experience this.

Toss UPS in the mix, and those packages may not get to their destination on the same date, even when things go smoothly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on October 07, 2014, 10:21:58 pm
Just got my DS1054Z after UPS screwed up and lost two of the trucks it was on and all four of the probes were missing the contacts on the hooks. I was told from TEquipment that this is common, and I've already seen it mentioned on this thread, but supposedly Rigol is doing something about it? I have three exams this week so I won't be able to play with it much until the weekend...

Interestingly, my free AC voltage detector arrived on Friday while my scope didn't arrive until today (Tuesday) even though they were shipped from the same place within half an hour of each other. I can't even guess how this would have happened logistically.

Just another data point.....

I got my 1054z from TEquipment too, a week ago.  Super fast shipping (ordered Friday, arrived Monday) and all 4 probes were fine.  The free, non-contact voltage detector arrived in its own box the day after I got the 'scope.  They're a great company to deal with!  My previous orders with them have been shipped just as fast and I've never had a problem with anything I've bought from them.



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 07, 2014, 10:40:43 pm
For some reason they prefer to put the free ac detector in its own box instead of opening the Rigol box and throwing it in.  It is odd though that they never seem to arrive at the same time!  That has happened to me twice in a row!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on October 08, 2014, 01:03:22 am
For some reason they prefer to put the free ac detector in its own box instead of opening the Rigol box and throwing it in.  It is odd though that they never seem to arrive at the same time!  That has happened to me twice in a row!

I found that really strange too as they originated form the same location at the same time.  I didn't look but they must be using some sort of "super-saving" shipping method for these ac detectors.  They're wasting shipping materials and money but I suspect that many people would not be happy if they found the manufacturer's seal had been broken.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 08, 2014, 01:20:35 am
but I suspect that many people would not be happy if they found the manufacturer's seal had been broken.

I agree this is likely the reason.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on October 08, 2014, 04:43:53 am
but I suspect that many people would not be happy if they found the manufacturer's seal had been broken.

I agree this is likely the reason.

Plus it's more costly for them to do so, they will have to change software and logistics to pack everything in the same box.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 08, 2014, 05:37:35 am
Actually they put it in the box for me. Guess it is easier for international shipments.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 08, 2014, 03:05:10 pm
They are opening all the Rigol boxes anyway, to check the probes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bzzz on October 08, 2014, 05:13:13 pm
According to the Batronix support, their next lot of 60 (!) DS1054Z will arrive on 5th of November. Half of that amount is already sold, and they expect to be totally out of stock again if orders keep coming in at the current rate. The batch after that will be 100 devices (!!) on 19th of November. Meanwhile, Meilhaus changed to 3-4 weeks delivery time. Furthermore, my favourite shop Voelkner (which is also selling DS1074Z/DS1104Z and lots of others at the usual MSRP) cannot source any of these at the moment.

..I guess it's a popular device, but why?  :-// :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 08, 2014, 05:36:38 pm
Hi

I've just unpacked my DS1054Z and hooked up a probe (with the x1 setting) to the Compensation Signal Output Terminal and hit Auto and seen a measurement of 30V (vertical scale = 5.00V.  Is that correct ?

Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 08, 2014, 05:39:58 pm
I've just unpacked my DS1054Z and hooked up a probe (with the x1 setting) to the Compensation Signal Output Terminal and hit Auto and seen a measurement of 30V (vertical scale = 5.00V.  Is that correct ?

Press CH1 and change it to 1X if you have the probe in 1X, then it will say 3V not 30V...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 08, 2014, 05:54:39 pm
Spot on thanks Alan.  Appreciate the fast response  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 08, 2014, 06:03:27 pm
Spot on thanks Alan.  Appreciate the fast response  :)

Sure thing! :)  Enjoy your new scope!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on October 08, 2014, 07:45:40 pm
..I guess it's a popular device, but why?  :-// :-DD
No idea. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that it is probably the best bang for buck scope ever built (expecially if we take into account the hacking options)  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 08, 2014, 09:28:40 pm
In contrast with Germany, the distributor in the Netherlands had at least one DS1054Z in stock yesterday for a friend of mine. He should receive it tomorrow.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dave3533 on October 08, 2014, 10:11:40 pm
Looks like Adafruit has 6 of these in stock, although there is a $50 premium over what seems to be the typical price.
http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145)

I ended up getting mine from TEquipment :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on October 08, 2014, 10:28:46 pm
Looks like Adafruit has 6 of these in stock, although there is a $50 premium over what seems to be the typical price.
http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145)

When you base your company in Manhattan you need to change a bit more to help pay the rent.  From Adafruit's site: "ALL ORDERS SHIP FROM THE ADAFRUIT FACTORY, NEW YORK, NY, USA."  I wish they had a factory store!



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 08, 2014, 10:40:15 pm
Looks like Adafruit has 6 of these in stock, although there is a $50 premium over what seems to be the typical price.
http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145 (http://www.adafruit.com/products/2145)
Adafruit need to be a bit more careful with their advertising. The first item in their bullet point list of features for the DS1054Z on that page reads:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 09, 2014, 05:22:03 am
In contrast with Germany, the distributor in the Netherlands had at least one DS1054Z in stock yesterday for a friend of mine. He should receive it tomorrow.  :)
Yes, they did, not sure if they still can offer it from stock. Just write them an e-mail and ask, you get a reply very quickly.
Their web site is http://www.arbenelux.com/2014/08/29/nieuwe-rigol-4-kanaals-50-oscillocope-voor-e-299/ (http://www.arbenelux.com/2014/08/29/nieuwe-rigol-4-kanaals-50-oscillocope-voor-e-299/)
The web site is also orange colored  :) (pure coincidence with my avatar)

I ordered before from Batronix, and their sales volume is gigantic compared to other European dealers. The success factor is probably a good looking and working web site, in combination with fast and free shipping.
Anyhow AR Benelux has a matching price, despite the higher VAT, and including shipping. Shipping is just as fast as Batronix.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 09, 2014, 09:21:57 am
Batronix does not have stock, they expect >21 days. arBenelux had stock 2 days ago. Their price is E294.21 excl BTW/VAT, E355.99 incl BTW/VAT in the Netherlands.

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: fabgar on October 09, 2014, 12:44:35 pm
Quote
Quote
In contrast with Germany, the distributor in the Netherlands had at least one DS1054Z in stock yesterday for a friend of mine. He should receive it tomorrow.

I think they got a few more in stock yeah ;) I tried every Belgian, German, UK, Dutch web store, no stock left. Thought I'd try mailing the distributor directly, and yes !
Ordered one on Wednesday, should be here tomorrow, yey :) They are very friendly and helpful.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 09, 2014, 02:34:11 pm
Yes, arBenelux is very responsive, friendly and helpful. Veel succes met je mooie scoop en groet uit Nederland.

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 09, 2014, 02:38:07 pm
Do they still have any left? (Arbenelux) =)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 09, 2014, 02:53:54 pm
I don't know, you could send them an email. They respond very fast. I doubt if they send to countries outside the Benelux (Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg).

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 09, 2014, 03:01:06 pm
Ik ben Belg van origine, dus kan het laten leveren naar omgeving Leuven =)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 09, 2014, 03:28:02 pm
Oh, dat is dichtbij! Ik woon vlakbij Eindhoven.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 09, 2014, 03:47:17 pm
Ik ben Belg van origine, dus kan het laten leveren naar omgeving Leuven =)

Ik denk dat als je uiteindelijk koopt een DSO, velen van ons hier zal een hartaanval hebben.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 09, 2014, 03:51:54 pm
I haven't bought the scope yet, as I was waiting on some videos for the LA functionality in the MSO series. But scope will be ordered soon (other priorities now).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: carpelux on October 09, 2014, 04:09:53 pm
I just received one delivered from the swedish company Instrumentcenter.se.

Delivery time a couple of days...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 09, 2014, 04:33:30 pm
Ik ben Belg van origine, dus kan het laten leveren naar omgeving Leuven =)

Ik denk dat als je uiteindelijk koopt een DSO, velen van ons hier zal een hartaanval hebben.  ;)
Ja Eindelijk van dat gezeur af  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on October 09, 2014, 04:35:51 pm
And in case anyone is wondering, Tequipment expects to receive a shipment at the end of the month and will be ready to ship to customers early November. I've just placed my order.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: fabgar on October 09, 2014, 04:40:35 pm
bedankt Bert ! ;)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pachuma on October 10, 2014, 07:00:19 am
If you are in Europe, you can get a unit from batterfly. Most of the rigol equipment I have was sourced from them and they have very reasonble prices and delivery times. The scope shipped in 24h and I had it with me in 5 working days. And they put some swag in the box for you too.
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/rigol-ds1054z (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/rigol-ds1054z)

They also have a nice bundle of the DS1054Z with a hakko FX888D for 374€ which is a good bargain.
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d)

The nice thing is that they have units in stock and they keep the information updated on their web site.
These folks are from Italy.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on October 10, 2014, 07:11:29 am
If you are in Europe, you can get a unit from batterfly. Most of the rigol equipment I have was sourced from them and they have very reasonble prices and delivery times. The scope shipped in 24h and I had had it with me in 5 working days. And they put some swag in the box for you too.
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/rigol-ds1054z (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/rigol-ds1054z)

They also have a nice bundle of the DS1054Z with a hakko FX888D for 374€ which is a good bargain.
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d)

The nice thing is that they have units in stock and they keep the information updated on their web site.
These folks are from Italy.
FWIW, TEquipment would put that bundle at ~$461 shipped after applying the 6% discount (according to xe.com, 374EUR ~= 474USD), so near US prices before VAT.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bzzz on October 10, 2014, 08:21:14 am
They also have a nice bundle of the DS1054Z with a hakko FX888D for 374€ which is a good bargain.
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/oscilloscopi/70MHz/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d)

Excluding VAT, unfortunately ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: michalK on October 10, 2014, 05:04:26 pm
I’m considering buying DS1054Z but because I’m “young player” in electronics I would like to ask you guys about something.

That scope has 50 MHz BW and 250 MSa/s on four channels. That gives exactly 5 times more sample rate than BW which is enough with sin(x)/x interpolation. But if we increase BW using that hack you’ve mentioned up to 100 MHz the situation changes and we get only 2.5 times the max BW. Can you tell me how that influences the readings and if that can cause aliasing? What is the theoretical limitation to avoid aliasing? How that issue is solved in 1104Z model if it has 100MHz and 250 MSa/s (4ch) as default?
Does it make sense at all to have scope with 100MHz and only 250 MSa/s?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 10, 2014, 05:27:51 pm
I’m considering buying DS1054Z but because I’m “young player” in electronics I would like to ask you guys about something.

That scope has 50 MHz BW and 250 MSa/s on four channels. That gives exactly 5 times more sample rate than BW which is enough with sin(x)/x interpolation. But if we increase BW using that hack you’ve mentioned up to 100 MHz the situation changes and we get only 2.5 times the max BW. Can you tell me how that influences the readings

Simple: It means you don't actually get 100MHz bandwidth.

(nb. This is also true on the DS1104Z with 4 channels enabled).

Does it make sense at all to have scope with 100MHz and only 250 MSa/s?

No.

But...it's a 4 channel scope and you can turn some channels off, eg. With only one channel enabled you have 1 GSa/s.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 10, 2014, 05:29:28 pm
That scope has 50 MHz BW and 250 MSa/s on four channels. That gives exactly 5 times more sample rate than BW which is enough with sin(x)/x interpolation. But if we increase BW using that hack you’ve mentioned up to 100 MHz the situation changes and we get only 2.5 times the max BW. Can you tell me how that influences the readings and if that can cause aliasing? What is the theoretical limitation to avoid aliasing? How that issue is solved in 1104Z model if it has 100MHz and 250 MSa/s (4ch) as default?
Does it make sense at all to have scope with 100MHz and only 250 MSa/s?

It's not just the number of times the sample rate that you have to be concerned with - it's also the BW frequency response of the DSO. At 250MSa/s, the Nyquist frequency is 125MHz. That means, in order to use sin(x)/x interpolation reliably at that sample rate, all frequencies above that should be attenuated by at least -12db. On the DS1104Z, they are not. So when running with 3/4 channels, you should have interpolation set to LINEAR (unless using the built-in 20MHz BW limiter) - which, given the usual BW/10 linear interpolation formula, gives you a truly usable BW of 25MHz.

I'm not sure how the BW limiting is done for the 50/70MHz models. As Mark_O pointed out earlier in this thread, these models may / may not actually provide a higher reliable BW in 3/4 channel mode, depending on how the filtering is done.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 10, 2014, 05:45:34 pm
Simple: It means you don't actually get 100MHz bandwidth.

I don't think that's an accurate way of describing the problem, since you do get 100MHz bandwidth.  The problem is that you may also get aliasing.  If you know the input signal is bandlimited (for example, it came out of a lowpass filter), you can use the full bandwidth.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: michalK on October 10, 2014, 05:48:43 pm
Thank you both for your answers.

So to sum up (if I understood correctly):
1) 1104Z IS a real 100MHz scope even while using 4 channels
2) upgrading 1054Z to 100MHz in fact gives you capability to measure signals up to that frequency only on one (or two?) channels

Can anyone make some tests or show some examples what is the difference while measuring some 100MHz signals on one and four channels using upgraded 1045 model?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 10, 2014, 06:20:58 pm
If you know the input signal is bandlimited (for example, it came out of a lowpass filter), you can use the full bandwidth.

Aside from decoding in the digital realm, when exactly would you be looking at 3 or 4 independent signals which you knew were all band-limited to 100MHz?

So to sum up (if I understood correctly):
1) 1104Z IS a real 100MHz scope even while using 4 channels

No, that's not the way I would describe it, but I guess it depends on what you mean by "real". IMO, unless decoding/examining digital signals of a known speed, the analog 'practical' BW of the DS1000Z when running 3/4 channels should be considered ~25MHz (unless the DS1054Z/DS1074Z have filtering in the gain-stage).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 10, 2014, 06:22:31 pm
So to sum up (if I understood correctly):
1) 1104Z IS a real 100MHz scope even while using 4 channels

Nope.

It's exactly the same 'scope as the "adjusted" (ahem) DS1054Z.

Can anyone make some tests or show some examples what is the difference while measuring some 100MHz signals on one and four channels using upgraded 1045 model?

There's some in the middle of this thread somewhere. The tests have been done. The results have been published (see the first part of this reply).

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 10, 2014, 06:24:42 pm
Isn't there a nice PDF which talks about bandwidth vs sample rate and Nyquist, etc.??
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 10, 2014, 06:31:45 pm
The remark about the 25 MHz BW is incorrect.

The scope has an analog BW of 100 MHz on ALL channels.

Note that analog BW and digital sample rate are two different things.

Analog BW = 100 MHz on ALL channels, even if you use all 4 channels at once.

Digital sample rate is 1 GS/s when you use 1 channel, 512 MS/s when you use 2 channels, 250 MS/s when you use 4 channels.

For a 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s is enough to represent the original signal as it complies with the Nyquist theorem.

The Nyquist theorem states that a signal must be sampled at a rate greater than twice the highest frequency component of the signal to accurately reconstruct the waveform; otherwise, the high-frequency content will alias at a frequency inside the spectrum of interest.

More detailed information about the relation between Bandwith, Sample Rate and the Nyquist Theorem is available here:
http://www.ni.com/white-paper/2709/en/ (http://www.ni.com/white-paper/2709/en/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 10, 2014, 06:40:03 pm
For a 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s is enough to represent the original signal as it complies with the Nyquist theorem.

Technically true, but only useful to musicians, not electrical engineers.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 10, 2014, 06:54:31 pm
If you know the input signal is bandlimited (for example, it came out of a lowpass filter), you can use the full bandwidth.
Aside from decoding in the digital realm, when exactly would you be looking at 3 or 4 independent signals which you knew were all band-limited to 100MHz?
Maybe if you were looking at the input and output of a radio transmitter.  (But even without an example, I think it's important to understand what the real limitation is.)

Quote
IMO, unless decoding/examining digital signals of a known speed, the analog BW of the DS1000Z when running 3/4 channels should be considered ~25MHz (unless the DS1054Z/DS1074Z have filtering in the gain-stage).
It's misleading to describe it that way, because people will think that you can't see signals > ~25MHz, which is not true.  If you said alias-free bandwidth, that would be clearer.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 10, 2014, 07:00:26 pm
Can anyone make some tests or show some examples what is the difference while measuring some 100MHz signals on one and four channels using upgraded 1045 model?
There's some in the middle of this thread somewhere. The tests have been done. The results have been published (see the first part of this reply).
Has anyone applied a 150MHz signal in 4 channel mode and looked for aliasing?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 10, 2014, 07:01:26 pm
Maybe if you were looking at the input and output of a radio transmitter.

That's 2 channels - not a limitation, in terms of the sampling rate - and so not applicable.

It's misleading to describe it that way, because people will think that you can't see signals > ~25MHz, which is not true.

Only people that don't understand what we're talking about. OTOH, using your logic, I could describe my Rigol DS2302 as being a 450MHz DSO, since I can see those signals.

EDIT: BTW, every time I've written about this, I've used terms like "a truly usable BW" or "a practical BW", etc. to indicate that it's not the actual BW of the DSO - but the 'workable' BW in many circumstances.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BobCollins on October 10, 2014, 07:09:10 pm
For a 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s is enough to represent the original signal as it complies with the Nyquist theorem.

Technically true, but it's only useful to musicians, not electrical engineers.

No, electrical engineers, not musicians (assuming musicians can accept some distortion and call it music).

The point is Nyquist theorem only applies theoretically if there is no content above the sample rate /2. The real low pass filters used before the sampler are not perfect. If they were you could use bandwidth right up to the Nyquist point.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 10, 2014, 07:11:19 pm
Maybe if you were looking at the input and output of a radio transmitter.

That's 2 channels - not a limitation, in terms of the sampling rate - and so not applicable.
The transmitter in my example has IQ inputs, and I also need to look at the LO  :)

Quote
It's misleading to describe it that way, because people will think that you can't see signals > ~25MHz, which is not true.
Only people that don't understand what we're talking about. OTOH, using your logic, I could describe my Rigol DS2302 as being a 450MHz DSO, since I can clearly see those signals.
What's the name of the logic fallacy that marmad is employing here?

Quote
EDIT: BTW, every time I've written about this, I've used terms like "a truly usable BW" or "a practical BW", etc. to indicate that it's not the actual BW of the DSO - but the 'workable' BW in many circumstances.
Above you called it "analog BW"  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 10, 2014, 07:52:00 pm
It's misleading to describe it that way, because people will think that you can't see signals > ~25MHz, which is not true.
Only people that don't understand what we're talking about. OTOH, using your logic, I could describe my Rigol DS2302 as being a 450MHz DSO, since I can clearly see those signals.
What's the name of the logic fallacy that marmad is employing here?

There's no logical fallacy. My point was this: when a DSO is advertised as being an XX MHz, N channel DSO - that implies that it's BW frequency response is at least XX at -3db - and that it can sample at it's highest rate (without fear of aliasing) that XX MHz with all N channels ON. The DS1104Z can not - period. Since it does not adhere to these normal expectations, this would be no different than breaking one of the other implied specifications: e.g. that a 300MHz DSO has a 450MHz BW (even though that BW is at -9db).

It seems you want to tell newbies and other prospective buyers, "Sure, it does 100MHz with 3/4 channels on, as long as you make sure the input signal is band-limited", whereas I (and Mark_O and some other posters) are pointing out that this is not the realistic, working BW of the DSO with 3/4 channels on. Yes, under special circumstances you can achieve that BW  - but it's certainly not the normal, everyday usage of the DSO.

Above you called it "analog BW"  :-//

OK, true - that is perhaps misleading :) and I will change it...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 10, 2014, 08:59:34 pm
and that it can sample at it's highest rate (without fear of aliasing) that XX MHz with all N channels ON. The DS1104Z can not - period.

But with all 4 channels on, 250MSa/s, Nyquist is still 125 MHz, right?  Am I missing something?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 10, 2014, 09:06:01 pm
Has anyone here actually proof that the DS1104Z can not do 100 MHz on all 4 channels at same time?

Or are the speculations just that it can not, because it is supposed to have no fancy anti-aliasing filter or whatever it might be called?

For me the analog frontend should just limit the max. frequency to make sure that there is no conflict with the corresponding ADC specs (sample rate) in the path beyond, and my understanding is that a 100 MHz scope has proper filtering by default to take care of this requirement in combination with > 200 MS/s ADC.

100 MHz scope == proper filter in the analog frontend to limit max. frequency to 100 MHz, period.

Isn't the anti-aliasing filter just a band pass filter? How complex can that be?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Retep on October 10, 2014, 09:28:15 pm
Has anyone here actually proof that the DS1104Z can not do 100 MHz on all 4 channels at same time?
The DS1104Z can do 100 MHz on all 4 channels at same time, however if the signal contains frequencies beyond 125 MHz you get aliasing when all 4 channels are enabled. 125 MHz is dangerously close to 100 MHz which means that if you really need 100MHz with all 4 channels enabled you might want to look further.

Quote
100 MHz scope == proper filter in the analog frontend to limit max. frequency to 100 MHz, period.
100 MHz scope means that you can expect that the -3dB point of the analog front-end is at least 100 Mhz, it does not say anything about the attenuation of higher frequencies. It is not possible to create an analog filter that passes all signals below 100 MHz with little or no attenuation and at the same time completely blocks any signal with frequency higher than 100 MHz. Even with a very steep filter (which tend to have undesirable side effects) it is still possible that frequency components above the Nyquist frequency make it to the ADC resulting in aliasing artifacts.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 10, 2014, 09:31:37 pm
Is all the filtering done in the analog front-end only?
Or what kind of (additional) filtering can be done in the digital stage? Or is it then already too late?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on October 10, 2014, 09:40:14 pm
To filter a signal to prevent aliasing, it needs to be done before the A/D. In other words it needs to be an analog filter on the front end before any digital sampling. The closer to the Nyquist limit, the steeper the filter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 10, 2014, 10:20:52 pm
Wanted to share a link from Maxim with a nice explanation about Filter basics and Anti-aliasing :)
http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/928 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/928)

They also cover interesting section about Undersampling and Oversampling techniques.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 10, 2014, 10:31:05 pm
Here's a graph illustrating the problem with the 100MHz BW - 250MSa/s combination - scaled from the image in this Agilent paper (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5988-8008EN.pdf). If the Rigol had a flat-response, it would be better served in terms of aliasing (although not rise-time measurement accuracy) - but it's evident from BW measurements posted by users that it has something much closer to a Gaussian-response. BTW, this image assumes an exact 100MHz @ -3db, which the Rigol doesn't have - meaning it's response could have even more aliased content in it:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=112662)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 10, 2014, 10:45:53 pm
Would it be possible to make an automated measurement with a setup of LXI devices, including the Rigol scope itself, to verify this?

The described setup on the page below should do the trick:
http://pueski.de/?p=99 (http://pueski.de/?p=99)

As the LXI command set is generic for all Rigol scopes, it would be easy to verify this for all the different families of Rigol scopes.

Anybody up for the job of implementing this automated benchmark performance using LXI? =)

BTW: How to inline an attachment picture in the actual thread posting? (As in the above posting)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on October 11, 2014, 01:24:01 am
even rigol says "break the rules"!
  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDvZQmYdVtk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDvZQmYdVtk)

btw. why would anyone be surprised to see this scope has less bandwidth when u use 4 or 3 channels?  :-//


you have that data in scope datasheet on rigol web
Code: [Select]
Analog channel: 1 GSa/s (single-channel),
500 MSa/s (dual-channel), 250 MSa/s (three/four-channel)
and simillar goes for memory depth. more channels=less bandw. and memory depth.

you're not looking at a system that has 4 totally separate processors where each has 1gs samplign rate. you're looking at system with 4 inputs but just one part that is doing all that 1gs processing....so when you use all 4 inputs bandwidth falls to 1/4th.

beyond 25mhz on 4 ch sure u can use it, but you don't know what you'll be looking at ie which alias of what....  :P


long time ago i had some nice illustrations of aliasing that would really make this very clear to pascal_sweden (and maybe others) but who's gonna find those now?  :P
but he could just imagine a grid of vertical lines(ie sampling) layed over the sinusoid signal(signal to be sampled), and then what will happen when few sinusoid periods span just 2 vertical lines and you never know at which signal amplitude you'll take that sample.
and how you can't really reconstruct that signal (you sampled) because you lack denseness of that vert. grid...

edit/added/found that aliasing illustration...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=112678)

alan2k, if you saw this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev121xAt_k4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev121xAt_k4)
you'll see dave uses 1/10th rule of thumb, ie for example 250ms/s equals 25mhz analog bandwidth...

pascal, you would probably use "insert image" tags and then put image url (that you just uploaded to forum) in it...ie
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=112665)
(i've put
Code: [Select]
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=112665 in img tags)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 11, 2014, 04:44:19 am
Has anyone here actually proof that the DS1104Z can not do 100 MHz on all 4 channels at same time?

It *can* do 100Mhz on all 4 channels. The argument here is over how useful that number is to an electrical engineer.

Question: With 200 MSa/s, how can you trust that the signal you're looking at is really 100MHz?

(Answer: You can't, because aliasing becomes a massive problem as you approach the Nyquist limit).


For as long as I can remember the rule of thumb has been "usable bandwidth is one tenth of the sample rate". With a 1 GSa/s 'scope this rule limits you to 100MHz with one channel, 50MHz with two channels and 25MHz with three or four channels. These frequencies can be relied on. Above these frequencies? You need to start doubting.

For me the analog frontend should just limit the max. frequency to make sure that there is no conflict with the corresponding ADC specs

Well of course it should do it, but they don't because it's difficult (ie. expensive) and you don't seem willing to pay.

Me? I'm gonna relax and enjoy my 4-channel, top-build-quality, sub-100Mhz-with-four-channels-enabled, 300 Euro oscilloscope...  :-+ (thanks, Rigol!)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 11, 2014, 04:53:19 am
and that it can sample at it's highest rate (without fear of aliasing) that XX MHz with all N channels ON. The DS1104Z can not - period.

But with all 4 channels on, 250MSa/s, Nyquist is still 125 MHz, right?  Am I missing something?

Well, yes, and no.   ;D

You're correct about Nyquist.  But the point you've missed (and you're not the only one) that Marmad has tried to make is that for that to work, you can't have significant spectral components above that Nyquist limit.  And on the Rigol, you do.  They roll off very slowly, above their -3dB reference point.  (And BTW, some scopes DO use higher-order filters on the front-ends, which roll off frequencies much more quickly than the Rigols do.  Rigol probably doesn't do that, because good, quality filters that don't negatively impact waveform integrity are expensive.)

We know that for sure, since swperk took the time to confirm that the hacked 1054z is down only 10dB at 400 393 MHz!  That means you're guaranteed to have aliases rolling over into your passband.  (Any time you have spectral content between 125-450 MHz.)

Now someone clever is sure to interject something like, "But why can't you still use it, if you know you don't have any frequencies above the Nyquist-limit, in the signal you're probing?"  And if you do know that, then sure, that's OK.  The problem is that you don't know that in general, and in principle, never can (unless you're using a different instrument to check, which kind of defeats the purpose).  And if what you're probing are digital signals with 'sharp edges', you'll have a lot of high frequency harmonics that won't be obvious unless you look at a spectral analysis.

You want to be using an instrument that you know you can rely on for the results it's providing.  Otherwise, you can wind up wasting a lot of time, or come to completely erroneous conclusions.  And to do that with the 1000z Rigols, you have to know where its limits are.  And work within them.  That's all.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 11, 2014, 05:16:47 am
Has anyone here actually proof that the DS1104Z can not do 100 MHz on all 4 channels at same time?
Or are the speculations just that it can not, because it is supposed to have no fancy anti-aliasing filter or whatever it might be called?

There's no need, since it's a fact, not 'speculation'.

Quote
For me the analog frontend should just limit the max. frequency to make sure that there is no conflict with the corresponding ADC specs (sample rate) in the path beyond,

And there you go (again), with what you think things should be.   :o

Quote
and my understanding is that a 100 MHz scope has proper filtering by default to take care of this requirement in combination with > 200 MS/s ADC.

Your understanding is incorrect.  I.e., you're wrong.   Sorry.  :palm:  Which is why people are posting to clarify... so you don't lead others astray, in your ignorance.

Quote
100 MHz scope == proper filter in the analog frontend to limit max. frequency to 100 MHz, period.

Please notify Rigol immediately!   :rant:  They need to do an immediate recall!

Quote
Isn't the anti-aliasing filter just a band pass filter?

No, it's not a BPF, it's an LPF.  It rolls off only the high end.

Quote
How complex can that be?

Well, it can be fairly complex, as it turns out.  You can't filter amplitude without also affecting the phase, of components below the frequency of the amplitude you're trying to influence.  So there are tradeoffs in any filter design.  You pick the right one for the type of job it's intended for, and pricing considerations.

It's pretty obvious you've never taken a course on filtering theory, but that's not stopping you from pontificating about it.   |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on October 11, 2014, 07:09:04 am
Mark_O: can't one just turn off the other channels to check how the signal looks in one channel mode if you get a feeling something might be off? Then if you have confirmed it, you can safely turn on the rest of the channels knowing that what you see is the accual signal. Of course, this assmums that one is triggering off the channel in question.
Would there be any accual problems going about it this way?
P.S. I know that that would be a hassel and I'm not saying it's convenient. Nor am I saying I understand this stuff all that well, it's just an idea I got while reading the previous comments.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 11, 2014, 07:26:51 am
Mark_O: can't one just turn off the other channels to check how the signal looks in one channel mode if you get a feeling something might be off? Then if you have confirmed it, you can safely turn on the rest of the channels knowing that what you see is the accual signal. Of course, this assmums that one is triggering off the channel in question.
Would there be any accual problems going about it this way?
P.S. I know that that would be a hassel and I'm not saying it's convenient. Nor am I saying I understand this stuff all that well, it's just an idea I got while reading the previous comments.

I like using an old combination analog and digital storage oscilloscope just for this reason.  If I suspect a problem do to aliasing or anything else, I can push one button and see the analog waveform at full bandwidth confirming my sanity.

To be fair however, I have hardly ever found a discrepancy even on an old DSO and peak detection works about as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 11, 2014, 10:43:58 am
I was actually thinking about the same. If you need to measure 4 channels in parallel for a detailed problem analysis, just check each measure point separately first on the first channel (other channels not used) in FFT mode, to check if there are frequencies above the Nyquist frequency. After having verified this for your 4 test points, it is safe to hook up the 4 channels to your test points, forget about exotic anti-aliasing filters and enjoy your 300 USD investment =)

Here is my understanding of the Rigol scope and its limitations: The Rigol DS1104Z has limitations in the filtering of the analog front end implying that you only have 25 MHz bandwidth in reality when using ALL 4 channels. When you treat the Rigol DS1104Z scope as a 25 MHz scope, and only use it for debugging designs up to 25 MHz, you can safely rely that the high frequencies that could exist in your design, are properly suppressed with the low-order low-pass filter in the analog front end of the Rigol scope.

But even when you are only debugging 25 MHz designs with this scope, you will still have the risk of higher frequencies right? I mean, even if you use it as a 25 MHz scope, there could be higher frequencies that give false readings? Or do I miss understand here?

Actually, regarding high frequencies and noise. If your design itself is within frequency limitations, any other frequencies in the signal path must come from interference and noise. But if the amplitude is very low, do they still impact a lot? Can someone shed a light on actual frequencies of interference signals and noise, their respective amplitude, and their impact? Can noise and interference beat the Nyquist frequency in terms of frequency and amplitude? =)

What about the other Rigol series, and their reliable bandwidth?
For the Rigol DS1104Z: ALL 4 channels, 25 MHz is reliable bandwidth.
For the Rigol DS2302A: ALL 2 channels, what is the reliable bandwidth?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 11, 2014, 10:56:55 am
What about the other Rigol series, and their reliable bandwidth?
For the Rigol DS1104Z: ALL 4 channels, 25 MHz is reliable bandwidth.
For the Rigol DS2302A: ALL 2 channels, what is the reliable bandwidth?

The names have the format DSXYZWS

The formula is:  X*100/W
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 11:56:25 am
But even when you are only debugging 25 MHz designs with this scope, you will still have the risk of higher frequencies right? I mean, even if you use it as a 25 MHz scope, there could be higher frequencies that give false readings? Or do I miss understand here?
No, you are correct - but in general, you shouldn't be attempting to measure signals that contain such high frequncy components (just as, for example, you wouldn't want to be measuring the same signals with only 1 channel on, but a sampling rate of 250MSa/s due to your time base/memory depth settings).
 
Another option would be to enable the 20MHz bandwidth limiter of each channel when using 3 or 4 channels. The DS1000Z appears to be using AD5207 (http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD5207.pdf)s (EDIT: and/or perhaps they're using the HC4053s) to alter the RC networks of the low pass filter - and I'm assuming that they apply the 20MHz bandwidth limiting there.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=112788)

Quote
For the Rigol DS2302A: ALL 2 channels, what is the reliable bandwidth?
200MHz (2GSa/s) is perfectly fine on the DS2000A. 300MHz starts to push the filtering boundaries a bit - and as many of us have mentioned in other threads, the DS2302A starts to run into the same possible problem (although much less severely) when you run it with both channels on (1GSa/s - 500MHz Nyquist).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 11, 2014, 02:49:55 pm
But even when you are only debugging 25 MHz designs with this scope, you will still have the risk of higher frequencies right? I mean, even if you use it as a 25 MHz scope, there could be higher frequencies that give false readings? Or do I miss understand here?
No, you are correct - but in general, you shouldn't be attempting to measure signals that contain such high frequncy components (just as, for example, you wouldn't want to be measuring the same signals with only 1 channel on, but a sampling rate of 250MSa/s due to your time base/memory depth settings).

With four channels on the DS1054Z might be a better scope than the DS1104Z because it has a much harder cutoff filter (above 50MHz).

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 11, 2014, 03:16:11 pm
Another option would be to enable the 20MHz bandwidth limiter of each channel when using 3 or 4 channels. The DS1000Z appears to be using AD5207 (http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD5207.pdf)s  for gain adjustment of the amplifiers in the front end - and I'm assuming that they apply the bandwidth limiting there.

Are you suggesting they used a para-phase amplifier (Gilbert multiplier with the outputs crossed) or something similar for gain adjustment controlled by the DC output from the AD5207?  That is a pretty old technique which I would not expect in a modern DSO.

The current trend is to do this type of calibration in software.  Even old DSOs do this.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: W7NGA on October 11, 2014, 04:32:07 pm
sorry .. I just had to chuckle. I own several Tektronix 2465B's that will do 4-channel and 400 Mhz acquisitions in their sleep! :box:

I paid $200 for each one and they look as new. yes, there are applications where a DS1054Z would better serve, but I don't have to worry about aliasing or finding a decent 50-ohm termination!

dan W7NGA
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 11, 2014, 04:45:11 pm
W7NGA, can you do a single shot 400MHz on 4 channels with your Tektronix 2465B? The answer is no.
This is comparing apples and pears.

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 04:48:20 pm
sorry .. I just had to chuckle. I own several Tektronix 2465B's that will do 4-channel and 400 Mhz acquisitions in their sleep!

Sure... but sometimes that's not the most important concern. Aside from the plethora of things that a DSO can do that an analog scope can't do, the sheer size of the screens on the 2465Bs would have me pulling my hair out at some point (and I know, because I own an analog Tek too).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 11, 2014, 05:06:39 pm
With four channels on the DS1054Z might be a better scope than the DS1104Z because it has a much harder cutoff filter (above 50MHz).

Is this really true? My understanding is that DS1054Z and DS1104Z are completely identical hardware wise. So the analog filtering should be exactly the same. The only difference is a SW configuration, but how can that SW configuration impact the behavior of the analog front end?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: W7NGA on October 11, 2014, 05:10:52 pm
geez .. where is the tongue-in-cheek emoticon when I need it!

I enjoy my Agilent MSO7014B you see in the background when it suits the task at hand.

let's be real .. if you need single-shot 400 Mhz capture you won't shouldn't be reaching for the DS1054Z  :)

as far as the screen size, it's amazing how much great engineering was accomplished with the eye-strain and mental anguish caused by staring at a small CRT.

I seem to remember having no problems at all staring at my Tek 465 all day and night.

rehashing the analog versus digital oscilloscope comparison is ... sophomoric at best. good engineers use good tools that fit the application. 

then again, would you trust someone with such a messy bench?  :)

dan W7NGA
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 05:44:24 pm
as far as the screen size, it's amazing how much great engineering was accomplished with the eye-strain and mental anguish caused by staring at a small CRT.

You use the tools you've got. Although I'm fairly sure if you had to give up either your Tek 2465s or the Agilent 7000, I know what would go.  ;)

Quote
rehashing the analog versus digital oscilloscope comparison is ... sophomoric at best.

Perhaps... but maybe so is coming on this thread to post another "look at what my bargain analog scope can do" comment.  :D

What is actually more interesting - seeing as how this new, $400, 4-channel DSO has ~80% of the waveform display area of your Agilent 7000, ~25-50% of the intensity levels of your 7000, ~30% of the waveform update rate of your 7000, and ~3x more memory than your 7000 - is how much that Agilent 7000 cost?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: carpelux on October 11, 2014, 05:54:27 pm
I noticed a strange ting today.

Received my new DS1054Z a couple of days ago, and today was the first day I had a chance to test it out.

As my aim was to free it from its chains 8) i thought I should test it's performance before and after applying the upgrade. The result surprised me!

I tested two things, a sweep with a 1V pp sine wave until it showed 0.7V (-3db), and the rise time using a Jim Williams Pulse Generator from free_electron.

I used a approx 1m RG58, a Rigol DG4162 (low z) and at the scope end termination with a tee and a 50 ohm resistor. The pulse generator was connected directly to the tee and the terminating resistor.

Before upgrade to DS1104:
Sine sweep: 110 MHz
Rise time: 2.5 nS

After upgrade:
Sine Sweep: 120 MHz
Rise Time: 2.4 nS

To me it seems that at least my sample of the DS1054Z was not bandwidth limited to 50 MHZ out of the box.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: W7NGA on October 11, 2014, 06:07:28 pm
I don't recall ever besmirching the Rigol scopes. I think the DS1054Z and DS2000 series are amazing.
I was reacting to what $400 can buy if you need high-bandwidth and multiple channels, with relaxed triggering requirements.

as I recall, I bought the Agilent 7000 scope with a few days engineering consulting income. it was a bargain at the time and afforded me accomplishing my objectives.
it has never locked up, crashed, smoked, or caused me irrepressible anguish .. other than paying for it.  :)

perhaps I simply felt that after 23 pages, this thread could use an injection of analog humor.

dan W7NGA

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 06:23:42 pm
I was reacting to what $400 can buy if you need high-bandwidth and multiple channels, and relaxed triggering requirements.

Understood. But you have to imagine that for many of us that don't live in the US, the options for finding and buying reasonably-priced, decent condition (or even fixer-uppers) used-test gear can be much more difficult.

Quote
perhaps I simply felt that after 23 pages, this thread could use an injection of analog humor.

Always welcome - although not always 100% translatable in text form.  ;)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 11, 2014, 06:24:12 pm
as far as the screen size, it's amazing how much great engineering was accomplished with the eye-strain and mental anguish caused by staring at a small CRT.

Those small CRTs were the "retina" displays of the era and one of the reasons Tektronix continued to use monochrome CRTs with external LCD color shutters in their high end TDS DSOs.  EEVBlog Dave mentioned Agilent doing something similar with high resolution monochrome CRTs in their older DSOs for the same reason.

Their DSOs which used the same 5" diagonal CRT from their 100 MHz and faster oscilloscopes were often driven with 10 bits of horizontal and vertical resolution for 1024 x 1024 which comes out to 240 dpi horizontal and 315 dpi vertical.  The 10 bits of vertical resolution was not even always wasted since the 7854 uses a 10 bit digitizer and most of the other DSOs have averaging modes.  More commonly some of the resolution was dropped but a respectable 1024 x 512 or 512 x 512 was still common.

Quote
I seem to remember having no problems at all staring at my Tek 465 all day and night.

I feel the same way now when using my 7904 (500 MHz 24 kV 5") despite its small CRT size compared to my 7603 (100 MHz 15 kV 6.25") or any of my other 100 MHz oscilloscopes with 5" CRTs even though I acquired the 7904 accidentally.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 11, 2014, 06:32:47 pm
W7NGA, can you do a single shot 400MHz on 4 channels with your Tektronix 2465B? The answer is no.
This is comparing apples and pears.

Another reason it is a poor comparison, which is pointed out occasionally on the TekScopes@yahoogroups.com email list, is that the 2465B and similar oscilloscopes were high end instruments of their time and still would be considered so if they were still manufactured.  That you can find used ones in good condition now for hundreds of dollars just reflects low demand and great uncertainty.

A better comparison to a 2465B would be a modern DSO costing $10,000 like a DPO4034B and I would certainly desire the later if I could get it for the same price as a used but working 2465B.  Of course you can calibrate (with difficulty) and repair a 2465B.  The DPO4034B is more like an Apple product; when it breaks, just throw it away and buy a new one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 11, 2014, 06:39:44 pm
As my aim was to free it from its chains 8) i thought I should test it's performance before and after applying the upgrade. The result surprised me!

It's easy to switch back/forth between the two. Install the Ultra Sigma utility and do ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" to go back to DS1054Z, ":SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXyourkeywithnohyphensXXXXXXXXX" to install a key.

To me it seems that at least my sample of the DS1054Z was not bandwidth limited to 50 MHZ out of the box.

Doesn't sound right to me.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Deckert on October 11, 2014, 10:03:21 pm
...that implies that it's BW frequency response is at least XX at -3db - and that it can sample at it's highest rate (without fear of aliasing) that XX MHz with all N channels ON. The DS1104Z can not - period. Since it does not adhere to these normal expectations, this would be no different than breaking one of the other implied specifications: e.g. that a 300MHz DSO has a 450MHz BW (even though that BW is at -9db).

Does anybody know if the DS1104Z supports ETS (Equivalent Time Sampling)? Yes, I know it's then only valid for repeating waveforms, but then again, a lot of the early DSOs did just that - eg. operated in ETS all the time in order to fulfill the analog front-end bandwidth requirement, while single-shot bandwidth was typically much less.

For example, I have the HP 54602B 150MHz (http://cube.co.za/~tva/workbench/hp54602b/index.html) DSO. It can display a 150MHz sine wave on all four channels at the same time, provided they're repeating waves, like that of a sine wave generator. The scope itself only as a 20MSa/sec ADC, so realistically one-shot captures are limited to no more than 2MHz on one channel.

I'd be happy with ETS for the 4-channel, 100MHz usage scenario.

--deckert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 10:18:45 pm
Does anybody know if the DS1104Z supports ETS (Equivalent Time Sampling)?

No, none of the Rigol UltraVision DSOs do.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 11, 2014, 10:38:49 pm
Does anybody know if the DS1104Z supports ETS (Equivalent Time Sampling)?

No, none of the Rigol UltraVision DSOs do.

I disagree with the simplicity of this answer.  They have something functionally equivalent.

On an ETS oscilloscope, the trigger to clock delay is measured which allows the samples to be aligned before any reconstruction is applied.  This allows timing measurements to the resolution of the time delay counter.

On a DPO style oscilloscope using only digital triggering, the reconstruction happens before triggering which yields a comparable trigger to clock delay measurement.  If this did not happen, then timing measurements would be limited to the base sample rate which even at 1 GS/s would only be 1 nanosecond which is pretty poor.  At 250 MS/s, it would be 4 nanoseconds which is completely unacceptable in a 100 MHz instrument.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 11, 2014, 11:37:39 pm
I disagree with the simplicity of this answer.
What a surprise!  :)

Quote
They have something functionally equivalent.
This is yet another new theory of yours.  ;D

Quote
On a DPO style oscilloscope using only digital triggering...
But who said the Rigol UltraVision scopes are only using digital triggering? It's not specified in any Rigol datasheets.

Quote
...the reconstruction happens before triggering which yields a comparable trigger to clock delay measurement.  If this did not happen, then timing measurements would be limited to the base sample rate which even at 1 GS/s would only be 1 nanosecond which is pretty poor.
Why don't you look at a DPO that is actually advertised as using a digital trigger? Such as the Siglent SDS2000 (http://www.siglent.com/DataSheet/EN/SDS2000_DataSheet_EN.pdf) - a 2GSa/s DSO (just like the Rigol DS2000) - that, according to it's datasheet, has a trigger timing and resolution of precisely 1ns.

Normally, when people talk about ETS, they're talking about the ability to sample at higher than RT rates. Even if what you're describing is functionally equivalent inside the DSO, it's operationally completely different - and thus irrelevant - to the end user of the DSO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 01:57:16 am
On a DPO style oscilloscope using only digital triggering...
But who said the Rigol UltraVision scopes are only using digital triggering? It's not specified in any Rigol datasheets.

That is right.  It is not specified in any datasheets or manuals.

If Rigol got off their asses and wrote some real documentation, we would not have to conduct extraneous experiments or make educated guesses about how their oscilloscopes actually function, what they can do, and how they perform.

If they are *not* using only digital triggering, then what are they using in addition?  Are their any analog DSO triggers which are not used to support ETS except in toys?

Quote
Quote
...the reconstruction happens before triggering which yields a comparable trigger to clock delay measurement.  If this did not happen, then timing measurements would be limited to the base sample rate which even at 1 GS/s would only be 1 nanosecond which is pretty poor.
Why don't you look at a DPO that is actually advertised as using a digital trigger? Such as the Siglent SDS2000 (http://www.siglent.com/DataSheet/EN/SDS2000_DataSheet_EN.pdf) - a 2GSa/s DSO (just like the Rigol DS2000) - that, according to it's datasheet, has a trigger timing and resolution of precisely 1ns.

And then I will look at the early LeCroy DSOs which were advertised as having digital triggers and find that they had timing resolution significantly higher than their real time sample rate would suggest.

Quote
Normally, when people talk about ETS, they're talking about the ability to sample at higher than RT rates. Even if what you're describing is functionally equivalent inside the DSO, it's operationally completely different - and thus irrelevant - to the end user of the DSO.

It is relevant to an end user who expects ETS like performance out of his DSO which says nothing about ETS in its documentation or marketing.  Are you suggesting these Rigol oscilloscopes are crippled compared to the obsolete ETS oscilloscopes they replaced?

Capture a pair of synchronous high frequency sine waves in single shot mode and measure the resolution of the delay between them.  Or do the same with one or more fast transition edges which displays pattern sensitive jitter or controlled delay.  Can these oscilloscopes make these measurements?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 12, 2014, 03:09:20 am
Hi, Creep.  I suspect this has already been addressed at this point, but since you asked me directly...

Mark_O: can't one just turn off the other channels to check how the signal looks in one channel mode if you get a feeling something might be off? Then if you have confirmed it, you can safely turn on the rest of the channels knowing that what you see is the accual signal. Of course, this assmums that one is triggering off the channel in question.
Would there be any accual problems going about it this way?

Yes, this would work.  And no, there are no actual problems with doing so.  One could either do it preemptively, using a single enabled channel to probe the DUT, looking for high-frequency content.  And even use the FFT to check for higher amplitude content in the no-no part of the spectrum.  OR, just proceed without, and only fall back to check if your testing suggests that something may be amiss.

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P.S. I know that that would be a hassel and I'm not saying it's convenient. Nor am I saying I understand this stuff all that well, it's just an idea I got while reading the previous comments.

Your understanding is fine, and it doesn't have to be a huge hassle.  It is an extra thing to remain aware of, and could cost you some time.  And time is often something a professional engineer is trying to optimize.  But the 1000z-series are versatile scopes, and very usable. 

If I were using one in 4-channel mode, but in too big a hurry to check, I'd just enable the 20 MHz BWL.  And if that were insufficient, I'd just use one of my other DSOs, that didn't have that constraint.  But though I have quite a few scopes, only a couple of my Tek's and one LeCroy exceed the Rigol's capabilities on 4-channels.  And they're not nearly as compact.

~~

One thing folks need to keep in mind is that people like Marmad are simply trying to provide an education, by calling attention to the limitations of the instruments we're using.  The educators aren't saying "don't even try to use it", or "the thing is worthless".  Just that you can't go in blindly.

If you think that's not possible or even likely, consider this scenario.  Someone who reads the EEVBlog see's the discussion on the 1054z, and the great price, and decides to pick one up, and hacks it to a 1104z model, with "100 MHz bandwidth".  And, like pascal_sweden, assumes that a 100 MHz scope is always fine for examining 100 MHz signals.  So he hooks it up to the embedded system he's working on, and starts looking at the SPI bus.  Since the 1000z series supports all 4 of the required channels (MOSI, MISO, CS, and CLK) he can do that easily.

Nowadays, SPI busses aren't just 2 MHz, or 5, or 8 MHz.  I've got one here that's running at 60 MHz, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear about faster.  So let's say he's looking at that signal on his embedded system.  He's perplexed, because he can't get the darn thing to decode properly.  It should work (a la, pascal), because it's "only" 60 MHz.  But there are numerous problems that prevent it.  First off, the scope isn't capturing fast enough to determine where the edges of the pulses are, with any certainty.  (And the Rigol can't sync to the clock... it's async.)  But there's also a lot of large-amplitude spectral content, way past the Nyquist limit, that the Rigol will do nothing to ameliorate.  That will fold over into the passband, and depending where the trigger levels are set, could be of high enough amplitude to completely corrupt the decoded stream on the SPI bus.  But even rare, sporadic, corruption is extremely undesirable, if not totally unacceptable.

Now he's going to be pretty unhappy.  He bought something thinking he knew what it could do for him.  And it's not working.  So the first conclusion is that it's broken.  We've seen that here more than once, and I saw it all the time back when I was discussing similar topics on the RC Groups forum.  "The scope's no good.  It doesn't work."  And lots of time wasted.  All because folks were unaware of the limitations of the test instruments they're using.

Having that knowledge in advance will enable them to work smarter, not harder, and get better results they can be confident about.  And spend less time scratching their heads, trying to figure out what's wrong with their DSO, and more time focusing on what's wrong with their circuit/system.  That is the goal, after all.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 12, 2014, 05:08:19 am
...the reconstruction happens before triggering which yields a comparable trigger to clock delay measurement.  If this did not happen, then timing measurements would be limited to the base sample rate which even at 1 GS/s would only be 1 nanosecond which is pretty poor.

In depends on context whether a 1 ns timing measurement is poor or not.

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And then I will look at the early LeCroy DSOs which were advertised as having digital triggers and find that they had timing resolution significantly higher than their real time sample rate would suggest.

That's true, but so what?  I have a 9300-series LeCroy, and two 9400-series.  And you are correct about their timing resolution/capabilities.  But they all had ETS (well, RIS), so they got that for "free", because they had a clock (or facsimile thereof) that ran 40x-50x faster.  I see interpolation capabilities in the ps range.  Back about 50 years ago, when I was using LeCroy scopes in the Physics labs at the Uni, picosecond events were extremely important.  But the current "affordable" scopes we're talking about were never intended for that purpose.

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It is relevant to an end user who expects ETS like performance out of his DSO which says nothing about ETS in its documentation or marketing.

Why would anyone expect that?   :-//  If it says nothing about some aspect of its performance, I have no expectations.

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Are you suggesting these Rigol oscilloscopes are crippled compared to the obsolete ETS oscilloscopes they replaced?

Marmad may not, but I would.  Though I wouldn't use the word crippled.  They're simply more limited, in some ways.  And I also don't understand why it would surprise you that scopes designed to sell for 50x less, would be less capable in some regards?

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Capture a pair of synchronous high frequency sine waves in single shot mode and measure the resolution of the delay between them.  Or do the same with one or more fast transition edges which displays pattern sensitive jitter or controlled delay.  Can these oscilloscopes make these measurements?

No.  Not really.  Not effectively.  The 1000z series doesn't specify, but the higher-performance 2000-series can have up to 2 ns of skew (nominally 1 ns) between the two channels.  That's up to 4 clock periods at it's max sample rate.  And there's enough jitter in their trigger systems (somewhere between 4-8 ns, IIRC) to make that look small by comparison.

The smallest resolution on any trigger-related setting in the 1000z specs is 8 ns, and for the 2000 series is 2 ns.  Step increments are 4 ns* and 1 ns, respectively.  What does that tell you?


*AFAIK.  I hope Marmad (or anyone with those Rigols) will correct me, if that is incorrect about the step-size.  The setting may be less, even if it can't really honor it.  But the 1000z may have a 1 GHz clock, even when it's not using it to drive sampling directly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 06:57:03 am
...the reconstruction happens before triggering which yields a comparable trigger to clock delay measurement.  If this did not happen, then timing measurements would be limited to the base sample rate which even at 1 GS/s would only be 1 nanosecond which is pretty poor.

In depends on context whether a 1 ns timing measurement is poor or not.

I would consider it poor for an oscilloscope specified to have a 3.5 nanosecond transition time or 100 MHz bandwidth but I would agree it also depends on the context of what is being measured; most people are not measuring anything which requires this level of precision and if they are, they are using an oscilloscope more suited to the task.

But to borrow and scale a phrase, a 100 MHz oscilloscope cannot track a 2.5 nanosecond edge but it should be able to measure a delay of 1.0 nanoseconds between two such edges.

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And then I will look at the early LeCroy DSOs which were advertised as having digital triggers and find that they had timing resolution significantly higher than their real time sample rate would suggest.

That's true, but so what?  I have a 9300-series LeCroy, and two 9400-series.  And you are correct about their timing resolution/capabilities.  But they all had ETS (well, RIS), so they got that for "free", because they had a clock (or facsimile thereof) that ran 40x-50x faster.  I see interpolation capabilities in the ps range.  Back about 50 years ago, when I was using LeCroy scopes in the Physics labs at the Uni, picosecond events were extremely important.  But the current "affordable" scopes we're talking about were never intended for that purpose.

So what was the facsimile of the clock which allowed high resolution delay measurements?  RIS as they describe it sure sounds like what I described where transition midpoint timing (*) is derived after reconstruction.

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It is relevant to an end user who expects ETS like performance out of his DSO which says nothing about ETS in its documentation or marketing.

Why would anyone expect that?   :-//  If it says nothing about some aspect of its performance, I have no expectations.

I tried to answer the question taking into account its apparent context.

The Rigol user manual is explicit about supporting a timebase scale of 5 ns/div.  Without interpolation or reconstruction at 250 MS/s, that would produce a pretty awful looking display of a 3.5 nanosecond transition time signal (single-shot or not) when the display resolution indicates that about a difference of 100 picoseconds should be visible; 800 points / 12 divisions = 66 points per division in the display record but some of that is used by the UI so 50 points per division is more realistic.  That then comes out to 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.  Coincidentally, the delay calibration is *specified* in the user manual to be 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.

If it is not possible to see 100 picoseconds of delay difference using this oscilloscope, then it is odd that the delay compensation would support that resolution.  Why support it if it cannot be seen anyway?

That is also insignificantly worse than the oldest 100 MHz ETS DSOs that I know of can do.

Now maybe the DS1104Z cannot do the above with a single shot acquisition, but it sure should be able to because it is not difficult and the hardware is capable of supporting it.

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Are you suggesting these Rigol oscilloscopes are crippled compared to the obsolete ETS oscilloscopes they replaced?

Marmad may not, but I would.  Though I wouldn't use the word crippled.  They're simply more limited, in some ways.  And I also don't understand why it would surprise you that scopes designed to sell for 50x less, would be less capable in some regards?

Considering my known antipathy toward Rigol, I find it odd to be arguing for the virtue of their recent instruments while it seems at least to me that others are arguing that they are less capable.

These oscilloscopes *are* less expensive but counter intuitively, I think that is why they use digital triggering instead of including the hardware to make a traditional TDC measurement to support ETS.  The former should have some additional limitations do to aliasing while still producing time resolution comparable to that provided by ETS hardware.

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Capture a pair of synchronous high frequency sine waves in single shot mode and measure the resolution of the delay between them.  Or do the same with one or more fast transition edges which displays pattern sensitive jitter or controlled delay.  Can these oscilloscopes make these measurements?

No.  Not really.  Not effectively.  The 1000z series doesn't specify, but the higher-performance 2000-series can have up to 2 ns of skew (nominally 1 ns) between the two channels.  That's up to 4 clock periods at it's max sample rate.  And there's enough jitter in their trigger systems (somewhere between 4-8 ns, IIRC) to make that look small by comparison.

I think that skew specification has to do with operating the ADCs without interleaving on multiple channels where a different phases of the synchronous clock are used.  This certainly fits with the variation in maximum sample rate when a different number of channels is used.  Reconstruction should correct for that and produce horizontally aligned traces.

I have been speculating over the past couple of weeks that the digital trigger on these DSOs is noisy because of aliasing some of which is produced in the digitizer beyond the reach of any front end antialias filter.

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The smallest resolution on any trigger-related setting in the 1000z specs is 8 ns, and for the 2000 series is 2 ns.  Step increments are 4 ns* and 1 ns, respectively.  What does that tell you?

It tells me that that is a limitation in the settability of their special triggers.  This is not unusual even in higher end DSOs.

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*AFAIK.  I hope Marmad (or anyone with those Rigols) will correct me, if that is incorrect about the step-size.  The setting may be less, even if it can't really honor it.  But the 1000z may have a 1 GHz clock, even when it's not using it to drive sampling directly.

I wish someone would do the basic simple tests which would reveal how exactly these DSOs perform and then compile a wiki with the results.  I would do it myself but lack the necessary hardware, namely the DSO.

(*) The online reference I like to give for various TDC designs is currently down do to hosting issues but the relevant part of the description for a transition midpoint timing TDC is "A resolution of around 10ps or so is possible when using a 16 bit pipeline ADC clocked at 80MHz or more."  As I recall, these were popular in particle collision experiments because of their adequate resolution and accuracy and their very high measurement rate.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 12, 2014, 07:26:31 am
Nowadays, SPI busses aren't just 2 MHz, or 5, or 8 MHz.  I've got one here that's running at 60 MHz, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear about faster.  So let's say he's looking at that signal on his embedded system.  He's perplexed, because he can't get the darn thing to decode properly.  It should work (a la, pascal), because it's "only" 60 MHz.  But there are numerous problems that prevent it.

Yep. This is why discussing Nyquist limits is a mistake in relation to DSOs. The "ten to one" rule for sample rate vs. bandwidth isn't predicted by theory, it comes from experience working with real signals.

nb. Theory can justify the rule (hindsight vision is 20:20...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 11:05:03 am
The Rigol user manual is explicit about supporting a timebase scale of 5 ns/div.

Yes, given it's maximum sample rate of 1GSa/s.

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Without interpolation or reconstruction at 250 MS/s, that would produce a pretty awful looking display of a 3.5 nanosecond transition time signal (single-shot or not)

Who would think that the DSO could produce a decent looking 3.5ns rise time without interpolation when it's only sampling every 4ns? When looking at 5ns/div @ 250MSa/s (unless you're just examining the paltry 15 acquired sample points), the entire displayed waveform is nothing but interpolation. Expecting 'detail' at that time base and sample rate is fairly silly.

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I wish someone would do the basic simple tests which would reveal how exactly these DSOs perform and then compile a wiki with the results.  I would do it myself but lack the necessary hardware, namely the DSO.

Virtually ANYTHING can be bought and returned within 30 days if you're willing to absorb the shipping costs. Instead of posting new speculation every few days (a couple of weeks ago it was that the Rigol secretly turned off sin(x)/x interpolation at higher sample rates to hide interleaving errors), perhaps you should get one of the scopes, run the tests you want and post your results - returning the DSO afterwards. I would be curious to see your results, and no offense, but judging by your posting frequency here, you have the requisite free time.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 12:50:39 pm
The Rigol user manual is explicit about supporting a timebase scale of 5 ns/div.

Yes, given it's maximum sample rate of 1GSa/s.

Great!  So where in the manual does it say that the fastest timebase scale is slower when more channels are used?  I must have missed that or maybe Rigol left it out.

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Without interpolation or reconstruction at 250 MS/s, that would produce a pretty awful looking display of a 3.5 nanosecond transition time signal (single-shot or not)

Who would think that the DSO could produce a decent looking 3.5ns rise time without interpolation when it's only sampling every 4ns? When looking at 5ns/div @ 250MSa/s (unless you're just examining the paltry 15 acquired sample points), the entire displayed waveform is nothing but interpolation. Expecting 'detail' at that time base and sample rate is fairly silly.

Didn't I just say this above?  I obviously do not expect any detail faster than the analog bandwidth or between sample points but I do expect sin(x)/x reconstruction to produce something closely resembling a 3.5 nanosecond transition.  All of the necessary information baring aliasing is there.  The sample points should still be on the original waveform within the the limitations of the analog bandwidth.

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I wish someone would do the basic simple tests which would reveal how exactly these DSOs perform and then compile a wiki with the results.  I would do it myself but lack the necessary hardware, namely the DSO.

Virtually ANYTHING can be bought and returned within 30 days if you're willing to absorb the shipping costs. Instead of posting new speculation every few days (a couple of weeks ago it was that the Rigol secretly turned off sin(x)/x interpolation at higher sample rates to hide interleaving errors), perhaps you should get one of the scopes, run the tests you want and post your results - returning the DSO afterwards. I would be curious to see your results, and no offense, but judging by your posting frequency here, you have the requisite free time.  :)

I still suspect they took steps to hide interleaving and aliasing errors.  Run the above test and find out.  It will show a sin(x)/x reconstruction problem or rather sin(x)/x reconstruction will reveal aliasing of a sine wave which is below the Nyquist frequency.

As far as buying and then returning an item I never intended to keep, I consider that rather dishonest.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 12, 2014, 01:19:47 pm
Nowadays, SPI busses aren't just 2 MHz, or 5, or 8 MHz.  I've got one here that's running at 60 MHz, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear about faster.  So let's say he's looking at that signal on his embedded system.  He's perplexed, because he can't get the darn thing to decode properly.  It should work (a la, pascal), because it's "only" 60 MHz.  But there are numerous problems that prevent it.

Yep. This is why discussing Nyquist limits is a mistake in relation to DSOs. The "ten to one" rule for sample rate vs. bandwidth isn't predicted by theory, it comes from experience working with real signals.

nb. Theory can justify the rule (hindsight vision is 20:20...)

I think it is a mistake as well.

The rule I usually use is related to capturing the 5th harmonic of a square wave with reasonable accuracy however most applications involve edges where transition time is a more realistic benchmark and that results in a similar rule.  If bandwidth is high enough, then sampling rate places somewhat of a limit on edge placement but not an absolute one.  Part of the difficulty here is using an oscilloscope in place of a logic analyser which would at least have the option of operating synchronously on a clocked data stream from SPI.  Of course most logic analyzers cannot measure signal integrity but the exceptions to this are fascinating.  Who was it that made that parallel bus logic analyser using a 4 bit flash ADC for each channel?  I remember the ads in the trade magazines.

It is worth mentioning that accurately capturing a 60 MHz SPI signal may also present probing difficulties and active probes are not cheap and low-z probes are not ubiquitous (but they are easy to make).  Just having a high bandwidth DSO with a fast sampling rate is not enough if probes with long ground connections are used or if the circuit cannot handle the capacitive loading of a high impedance passive probe or the low input resistance of a low-z probe.  I once designed in a pair of emitter followers to drive 50 ohm transmission lines in place of probes from something that was essentially a very fast SPI.  This worked much better than the active probe I did not have.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 12, 2014, 02:14:12 pm
As far as buying and then returning an item I never intended to keep, I consider that rather dishonest.

It depends, it is all part of the terms of the deal.  If they have a free 30 day return privilege as an advantage to above their competitors, then you are fully right to use it.  One could argue that if you planned to return it from the get go that that might not be so ethical.

The Agilent document I think that was posted earlier says:

Although
sampling at even higher rates relative
to the scope’s bandwidth would further
minimize the possibility of sampling
frequency components beyond the
Nyquist frequency (fN), a sample rateto-
bandwidth ratio of 4:1 is sufficient to
produce reliable digital measurements

So while we would all love to have a 10:1 ratio or even better, I think it is going a bit far to say we must have 10:1.  No doubt that the sample rate when using 4 channels on the 1000Z scopes are there downside, but the price is incredible.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 02:19:45 pm
Great!  So where in the manual does it say that the fastest timebase scale is slower when more channels are used?  I must have missed that or maybe Rigol left it out.

If DSO manuals listed every thing the DSO can't do, given any and all possible combinations of settings, the manuals would be the size of encyclopedias. But I would agree that Rigol has been a little misleading about the actual, working BW of the DS1000Z with 3/4 channels ON. Then again, this is their bottom-of-the-line, super-low-cost DPO - and some trade-offs are to be expected. My only wish would be that they make those trade-offs a little bit more clear in the manual.

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I obviously do not expect any detail faster than the analog bandwidth or between sample points but I do expect sin(x)/x reconstruction to produce something closely resembling a 3.5 nanosecond transition.  All of the necessary information baring aliasing is there.

Yes, "bar(r)ing aliasing" - rather a big "but", given the frequency roll-off the scope.

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I still suspect they took steps to hide interleaving and aliasing errors.  Run the above test and find out.

I don't have the equipment to produce a clean sine wave close to 1GHz/500MHz (my DS2000's 1/2 channel Nyquist frequencies) - but even if I did, I'm not sure why I would spend time running tests to satisfy your (and your's alone, as far as I've read) suspicions.

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As far as buying and then returning an item I never intended to keep, I consider that rather dishonest.

Well, who knows - you might love the DSO and think it's well worth $375 (or whatever it is at Tequipment with the EEVblog discount).  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 02:37:20 pm
...a sample rate to-bandwidth ratio of 4:1 is sufficient to produce reliable digital measurements.

So while we would all love to have a 10:1 ratio or even better, I think it is going a bit far to say we must have 10:1.  No doubt that the sample rate when using 4 channels on the 1000Z scopes are there downside, but the price is incredible.

The 10:1 ratio is for linear interpolation, not for sin(x)/x. If there is a strong possibility of aliasing (as when running 3/4 channels on the DS1000Z without extra filtering), it would be better to use linear interpolation, which is cruder but will be less wrong then sin(x)/x because it won't introduce false peaks (although it will introduce discontinuities in the gradient).

When using linear interpolation, a 10:1 ratio is preferable - as demonstrated in the following images. The first one shows a 5MHz sine wave interpolated linearly from 4 samples per period (4:1) - the second shows the same 5MHz sine wave interpolated linearly from 10 samples per period (10:1).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 12, 2014, 03:02:13 pm
One could argue that if you planned to return it from the get go that that might not be so ethical.

I'd certainly argue that. The seller will have a hard time selling it as "new" if it's had 30 days use (especially since the DS1054Z has trial features that tick away as you use it).

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 03:09:20 pm
I'd certainly argue that. The seller will have a hard time selling it as "new" if it's had 30 days use (especially since the DS1054Z has trial features that tick away as you use it).

Well, if you aren't sure about keeping something you buy, you should certainly treat it (and the packaging) extremely well. And the trial features on these scopes are easily resettable by dealers with a simple key code.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on October 12, 2014, 10:38:16 pm
So while we would all love to have a 10:1 ratio or even better, I think it is going a bit far to say we must have 10:1.  No doubt that the sample rate when using 4 channels on the 1000Z scopes are there downside, but the price is incredible.

Yes, and I'm not sure why any would quibble over this. Something to be aware of for sure, but still no reason why anyone wouldn't buy this scope at $399
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Deckert on October 12, 2014, 11:12:12 pm
Does anybody know if the DS1104Z supports ETS (Equivalent Time Sampling)?

No, none of the Rigol UltraVision DSOs do.

Thanks marmad. That's interesting and, to a certain extent, somewhat disappointing. The DS1102Z's predecessors (the old DS1102) offered ETS and went down to 2ns/div on it's shortest time base. I was considering the DS1104Z as a replacement for my Atten ADS1102CML (a Siglent SDS1102CML), but I do use ETS often to measure output propagation delays.

Using ETS I have measured delays down to 1ns. I wonder if the ETS hardware is linked to the 1ns sample step or if I will be able to measure smaller delays (an experiment for another day).

--deckert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 12:51:39 am
Thanks marmad. That's interesting and, to a certain extent, somewhat disappointing.

As mentioned in another thread, none of the current crop of low-cost, intensity-graded DPOs (Rigol DS1000Z/DS2000A, Agilent 2000X, Siglent SDS2000, etc) offers ETS.

The Rigol DS2000A has the 1ns timebase setting (when enabled to 300MHz), but of course, that's considerably more expensive than the DS1054Z.   
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 13, 2014, 06:36:13 am
Yep. People are arguing over this as if it were a $4000 oscilloscope, not $400.

For $400 the only question you should be asking is, "Where can I get one???"

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rbroders on October 13, 2014, 07:22:54 am
Can someone please send me the EEVblog discount code for TEquipment?

Thanks in advance -- BOb
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 13, 2014, 07:25:58 am
Yep. People are arguing over this as if it were a $4000 oscilloscope, not $400.

For $400 the only question you should be asking is, "Where can I get one???"

Agreed.  That's why it is such a shame that the main thread dedicated to what is probably the best oscilloscope buy in quite a few years has been polluted with irrelevant and unhelpful noise.  Perhaps the thread could be tidied up so it can add value long into the future ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 13, 2014, 08:08:38 am
Yep. People are arguing over this as if it were a $4000 oscilloscope, not $400.

For $400 the only question you should be asking is, "Where can I get one???"

Agreed.  That's why it is such a shame that the main thread dedicated to what is probably the best oscilloscope buy in quite a few years has been polluted with irrelevant and unhelpful noise.  Perhaps the thread could be tidied up so it can add value long into the future ?

+1
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on October 13, 2014, 09:08:43 am
Yep. People are arguing over this as if it were a $4000 oscilloscope, not $400.

For $400 the only question you should be asking is, "Where can I get one???"

Agreed.  That's why it is such a shame that the main thread dedicated to what is probably the best oscilloscope buy in quite a few years has been polluted with irrelevant and unhelpful noise.  Perhaps the thread could be tidied up so it can add value long into the future ?

+1

Yeah, but where is my logic analyzer????

I kid, I kid.

Actually I've been telling hobbyist friends about this scope, they like my DS2072 so they will love that one (other than they only have one vertical and position control knob for all of the channels) but if I didn't have my 2000 series I would so get this one for less than half the price!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 13, 2014, 09:44:55 am
Yeah, but where is my logic analyzer????

It has options for serial decoding, trigger on serial events/serial data, etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on October 13, 2014, 09:45:32 am
I don't consider this "noise". Quite a bit of information on the scope's shortcomings that people should be aware of. Nobody ever said that the scope wasn't great value, they just explained a few quirks of the scope and how to get around them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on October 13, 2014, 09:54:43 am
Yeah, but where is my logic analyzer????

It has options for serial decoding, trigger on serial events/serial data, etc.

It was a tongue in cheek comment. It's just $400!

Most everyone's phones cost as much as that!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 11:15:28 am
Agreed.  That's why it is such a shame that the main thread dedicated to what is probably the best oscilloscope buy in quite a few years has been polluted with irrelevant and unhelpful noise.  Perhaps the thread could be tidied up so it can add value long into the future ?

Threads don't get "tidied up" here - although you can go back and delete your own comments from it. OTOH, you can also start another thread at anytime - for that long-term, future-value appeal (whatever that might amount to in the 21st century).  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on October 13, 2014, 11:36:32 am
Agreed.  That's why it is such a shame that the main thread dedicated to what is probably the best oscilloscope buy in quite a few years has been polluted with irrelevant and unhelpful noise.  Perhaps the thread could be tidied up so it can add value long into the future ?

Forum are not, and never will be repositories of filtered information. They simply don't work like that.
You can force that information through "tidying up", but then the forum dries up and dies because that's not what people come here every day for.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 13, 2014, 11:42:26 am
One could argue that if you planned to return it from the get go that that might not be so ethical.

I'd certainly argue that. The seller will have a hard time selling it as "new" if it's had 30 days use (especially since the DS1054Z has trial features that tick away as you use it).

The seller will likely have more than a hard time doing this in most places.  At best it will be an "open box" item or "recertified" or "refurbished" but selling it as "new" would be unlawful.  It sometimes happens anyway of course and sometimes sellers get caught doing it.

I have never purchased something for sale with the intention of borrowing it for no matter how short a duration and then returning it for a refund although I know people who have.  Yes, I could always make up some reason as justification for returning it but the basic dishonesty of doing this would haunt me.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 01:28:48 pm
...but the basic dishonesty of doing this would haunt me.

I see your point, David - OTOH, I'm not sure why you think making continual speculations in this thread (without any proof) that Rigol is deliberately taking steps to hide errors in this DSO is much better.

I would be the first to admit that companies (and, unfortunately, often Chinese companies) are sometimes misleading - or not forthcoming - about problems/faults in their products (and Rigol is certainly no exception). And I have definitely questioned the veracity of posted specifications myself in this forum - but I've tried to do it based on conflicting or contrary (or, admittedly :-[, sometimes misunderstood) information/evidence related to the product itself - rather than history.

So unless/until you have some corroboration that supports your speculations, perhaps you might give them the benefit of the doubt? When I originally suggested you buy one and test it, I was fairly sure you would find yourself impressed by the value for money (even given it's shortcomings) - and end up keeping it in the end.  :)

- Mark
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 02:19:48 pm
Getting back to more practical information: it would be good if an owner with the necessary test gear charted the frequency response of the DSO before implementing the 100MHz BW option (or after removing it).

As mentioned before, it's fairly easy to turn ON/OFF the 100MHz BW option with SCPI commands, and if the 50MHz BW device had a sharp enough roll-off implemented in the front-end (i.e. attenuating >= 125MHz >= -12db), it would be an alternative way to BW limit the device when using primarily 3/4 channels (while keeping the working BW around the stated 50MHz maximum).

Since Rigol has eliminated the LMH6518 in the DS1000Z (I assume to cut costs since it's a fairly expensive device), even better would be knowing precisely what they're doing in the front-end to control the low-pass filter - both for model differentiation and/or channel BW limiting. Maybe Dave can play around with that during a teardown.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 13, 2014, 02:25:07 pm
...but the basic dishonesty of doing this would haunt me.

I see your point, David - OTOH, I'm not sure why you think making continual speculations in this thread (without any proof) that Rigol is deliberately taking steps to hide errors in this DSO is much better.

In my previous experiences with Rigol, I concluded that they were systematically deceptive about the capabilities of their DSOs.  In reality, maybe they were just incompetent but how does one tell the difference?  The result is the same in either case.

Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

Quote
I would be the first to admit that companies (and, unfortunately, often Chinese companies) are sometimes misleading - or not forthcoming - about problems/faults in their products (and Rigol is certainly no exception). And I have definitely questioned the veracity of posted specifications myself in this forum - but I've tried to do it based on conflicting or contrary (or, admittedly :-[, sometimes misunderstood) information/evidence related to the product itself - rather than history.

I try to pick on all companies when they do this in an equal opportunity way.  Tektronix is often an object of my derision.  I admit to having more than my fair share of cynicism.

As far as direct experience, I briefly evaluated several Rigol oscilloscopes before the DS1000Z and DS2000A series were released so this was years ago.  I concluded then that a 20+ year old Tektronix 2230 or 2232 was a better value but readily admit that this would not be the case for most users and so tend to recommend the DS1000Z series if asked despite my misgivings about Rigol in general.

Quote
So unless/until you have some corroboration that supports your speculations, perhaps you might give them the benefit of the doubt? When I originally suggested you buy one and test it, I was fairly sure you would find yourself impressed by the value for money (even given it's shortcomings) - and end up keeping it in the end.  :)

I have pointed to evidence others have published (even Rigol) which you have not addressed so I hardly believe at this point that you would consider direct evidence produced by me.

I have considered doing what you suggest (but was rather taken aback that you suggested buying one for evaluation with the intention of returning it) but neither of the Rigol DSOs I might consider will do anything significant for me that I cannot already do with my existing analog and digital oscilloscopes and they lack what I would consider a killer feature like support of network analysis by returning FFT phase information.

Apparently their waveform reconstruction and triggering is defective at least by my standards but I will disagree with you on that until I get to test one or someone posts some relevant test results. :)

It bothers me that we do not agree but please do not take it personally.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 03:03:26 pm
I have pointed to evidence others have published (even Rigol) which you have not addressed so I hardly believe at this point that you would consider direct evidence produced by me.

You seem to have a strange idea as to what constitutes "evidence" of something. If I post links to documents reporting that some bridges collapse, this does not prove - to any degree whatsoever - that the bridge located next to your house has or will collapse.

Quote
..but neither of the Rigol DSOs I might consider will do anything significant for me that I cannot already do with my existing analog and digital oscilloscopes

So I'm curious: what DSO do you own that can capture up to 65000 separate waveforms for decoding or analysis, over a span of time from microseconds to days?   :)

Quote
Apparently their waveform reconstruction and triggering is defective

No, I think you're confused about the meaning of "apparently" (as with "evidence" above :)). Their waveform reconstruction and triggering in the UltraVision DSOs appears to be fine - unless someone proves otherwise with tests.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 13, 2014, 03:45:44 pm
Getting back to more practical information: it would be good if an owner with the necessary test gear charted the frequency response of the DSO before implementing the 100MHz BW option (or after removing it).

Stan Perkins did that:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg523785/#msg523785 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg523785/#msg523785)

Quote
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 04:43:07 pm
Stan Perkins did that:

Quote
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

I saw that post, but it's a bit vague. He doesn't specify the slope of the roll-off (specifically, the attenuation at 125MHz), and he mentions that he believes it's being done in software - although this would be a different method than Rigol has used in the past (at least, it's different than the DS2000 - perhaps the DS1052E/DS1102E also uses software limiting?).

EDIT: Also, there has been at least one conflicting report to Stan's posted here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg528697/#msg528697)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 13, 2014, 05:59:02 pm
Quote
..but neither of the Rigol DSOs I might consider will do anything significant for me that I cannot already do with my existing analog and digital oscilloscopes

So I'm curious: what DSO do you own that can capture up to 65000 separate waveforms for decoding or analysis, over a span of time from microseconds to days?   :)

I have a Tektronix 7834 analog storage oscilloscope for making 4 channel 300 MHz captures at 250,000+ sweeps per second (but not at the same time) over a span of seconds to minutes.  Technically it can go for hours but it is already difficult enough to use and bistable storage mode is painful on the eyes.  I have a pair of 2230s for making 4 channel captures over hours to days if necessary.  I have never needed to do serial protocol analysis beyond what my word recognizer will support with a little help because my serial interface designs always work and I have other debugging methods available if necessary.  Signal integrity does not require protocol analysis.

The serial decoding and MSO capabilities are the features I would consider the Rigol oscilloscopes for but I have not needed them yet.  I could have used a DSO which returns FFT phase information in the past but practically nobody supports that anymore.

My go-to DSO is a 2230 or 2232.  It just depends on which is closer.

Quote
Quote
Apparently their waveform reconstruction and triggering is defective

No, I think you're confused about the meaning of "apparently" (as with "evidence" above :)). Their waveform reconstruction and triggering in the UltraVision DSOs appears to be fine - unless someone proves otherwise with tests.

I argued that they were both fine.  I was told that they were not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 13, 2014, 06:00:59 pm
Stan Perkins did that:

Quote
Before the "upgrade" I measured the bandwidth as almost exactly 50 MHz with a sharp rolloff above 50 MHz, consistent with bandwidth limiting in software.

I saw that post, but it's a bit vague. He doesn't specify the slope of the roll-off (specifically, the attenuation at 125MHz), and he mentions that he believes it's being done in software - although this would be a different method than Rigol has used in the past (at least, it's different than the DS2000 - perhaps the DS1052E/DS1102E also uses software limiting?).

EDIT: Also, there has been at least one conflicting report to Stan's posted here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg528697/#msg528697)

Bah.  I was going to mention the conflicting report (if I could find it) but you got to it before I finished my other reply. :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 06:50:14 pm
I have a Tektronix 7834 analog storage oscilloscope for making 4 channel 300 MHz captures at 250,000+ sweeps per second (but not at the same time) over a span of seconds to minutes.  Technically it can go for hours but it is already difficult enough to use and bistable storage mode is painful on the eyes.  I have a pair of 2230s for making 4 channel captures over hours to days if necessary.

Neither of these have anything close to the storage capabilities of the DS1000Z or DS2000. The 7834 is limited (according to it's datasheet) to 30 minutes of time, and the 2230's can save a maximum of 3 waveforms (each @ 1k compressed). There is simply no way you can, for example, capture and store a 14k waveform once per second for 18 hours.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 13, 2014, 07:04:57 pm
I saw that post, but it's a bit vague. He doesn't specify the slope of the roll-off

"Sharp"

and he mentions that he believes it's being done in software - although this would be a different method than Rigol has used in the past (at least, it's different than the DS2000 - perhaps the DS1052E/DS1102E also uses software limiting?).

Software makes sense. I assume they made no hardware modifications to the existing DS1074Z/DS1104Z 'scope.

PS: The 'scope already has a 20MHz bandwidth limiter button. Does anybody know if that's that hardware, software, FPGA...? Maybe they re-used that as a 50MHz limiter.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 07:33:04 pm
"Sharp"
He doesn't specify the slope of the roll-off (specifically, the attenuation at 125MHz)

Quote
Software makes sense. I assume they made no hardware modifications to the existing DS1074Z/DS1104Z 'scope.

It wouldn't matter if there was already a control method of adjusting the cut-off frequency for that BW in the front-end - just as Rigol didn't have to alter the front-end of the DS2000A to accommodate the 300MHz model when it was released.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 13, 2014, 08:31:49 pm
I have a Tektronix 7834 analog storage oscilloscope for making 4 channel 300 MHz captures at 250,000+ sweeps per second (but not at the same time) over a span of seconds to minutes.  Technically it can go for hours but it is already difficult enough to use and bistable storage mode is painful on the eyes.  I have a pair of 2230s for making 4 channel captures over hours to days if necessary.

Neither of these have anything close to the storage capabilities of the DS1000Z or DS2000. The 7834 is limited (according to it's datasheet) to 30 minutes of time,

The Tektronix specifications are pessimistic (*) but storage time in bistable mode, which I would hate to use for the reason I gave, lasts essentially until power is removed and oddly enough generally even after that; that may seem a little odd but analog storage CRTs are weird.  In reality I would never use persistence longer than a few minutes deliberately but it is handy for fast glitch hunting and as a variable persistence sampling display which is what I mostly use it for.

The DS2302A has almost the same bandwidth, the 7834 can be configured as fast as 400 MHz but the difference is not significant, but costs more than every oscilloscope I have combined without replacing the capabilities of all of them.

I would never recommend a 7834 to someone unless they had a specific requirement that it filled which modern but cheap DSOs did not and even then I would try to find an alternative.  That is a very short list even if you include various ways a 7834 may be used to crush invaders. :)

Quote
and the 2230's can save a maximum of 3 waveforms (each @ 1k compressed). There is simply no way you can, for example, capture and store a 14k waveform once per second for 18 hours.

Or one channel with a 4k record length or 2 channels with 2k record lengths and half of those again if peak detection is used.  They can actually store lots of waveform but that requires the memory backup option.  These oscilloscopes also support external clocking for arbitrarily long duration recording but I have never needed it.  If I am hunting for something specific over a long period of time, I would be using a qualified trigger circuit of some sort which Rigols are better at.  If I am not sure of what I am looking for, I would have to rely on envelope detection and again, the Rigols would probably perform better for this but I am no longer sure.

None of them can capture and store a 14k waveform once per second for 18 hours but there are many things the Rigols cannot do that these can and they are the things I require.  I keep being told that the Rigols are incapable of measuring the things I would like including for instance RMS jitter to high resolution or high resolution jitter at all.  That is something I could use.  I can do it now even within a 100 MHz bandwidth but it is not as convenient as it could be.

(*) Tektronix at the time was routinely pessimistic in their specifications even for marketing.  They would generally list the minimum guaranteed number like 500 MHz for an oscilloscope which typically was more like 700 MHz or 600 picoseconds for pulse generator which actually performs more like 450 picoseconds.  The 30 minute time for the 7834 variable persistence storage display probably reflects the amount of patience someone had watching it to make sure it met the specification they promised.  The same statement could be made about transistor leakage or operational amplifier input bias current or noise.  Testing takes time and costs money.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 13, 2014, 09:00:41 pm
I don't have the equipment to produce a clean sine wave close to 1GHz/500MHz (my DS2000's 1/2 channel Nyquist frequencies) - but even if I did, I'm not sure why I would spend time running tests to satisfy your (and your's alone, as far as I've read) suspicions.

Hmm well I can generate sigs up to 1.5 GHz with my DSA815 so I did some tests with my "upgraded" 1074Z with 4 channels on, so 250 MSa/s:
100 to 200 MHz.
Nice aliassing! notable the 200 MHz in, resulting in a 50 MHz displayed sine...  (250-200 = 50, so the math checks out  :P)
The HW counter loses it above 100 MHz, until it folds back to < 100 MHz...

100MHz:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113109)

120 MHz:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113111)

160 MHz:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113113)

200 MHz:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113115)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 09:09:27 pm
That is a very short list even if you include various ways a 7834 may be used to crush invaders. :)

 ;D

Quote
...but there are many things the Rigols cannot do that these can and they are the things I require.
 
No argument there - I was just trying to specify at least one way in which these new, cheap, deep-memory DSOs can outperform some of the great, older gear. I still keep and use my 35-year old Tek 212 - even though it only has a BW of 500kHz - because manufacturers still don't make inexpensive, lightweight, battery-operated, double-insulated (floating to 600V) DSOs - although they're getting closer.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 13, 2014, 09:20:39 pm
Hmm well I can generate sigs up to 1.5 GHz with my DSA815 so I did some tests with my "upgraded" 1074Z with 4 channels on, so 250 MSa/s:
100 to 200 MHz.
Nice aliassing! notable the 200 MHz in, resulting in a 50 MHz displayed sine...  (250-200 = 50, so the math checks out  :P)

I think the 100 MHz example is displaying aliasing in the digitizer like I described but the variable persistence is concealing it as a thicker trace.  The 120 MHz example definitely shows a problem but it is so extreme that I am not sure if something else is going on.  The 160 MHz example shows what I expected the 100 MHz example to look like.  The 200 MHz example actually looks like the best of the bunch to me.

Only the 120 MHz results looks weird to me but I think I know what causes it in this case.  I have seen something similar which appeared to be related to the aperture time of the digitizer implying a non-linear frequency response but I do not think that is it.

Since these oscilloscopes have FFT support, they should be able to display their digitizer non-linearity and sampling errors directly as harmonic and non-harmonic distortion products as shown in that Agilent application note I linked.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 13, 2014, 09:30:32 pm
Hmm well I can generate sigs up to 1.5 GHz with my DSA815 so I did some tests with my "upgraded" 1074Z with 4 channels on, so 250 MSa/s:
100 to 200 MHz.
Nice aliassing! notable the 200 MHz in, resulting in a 50 MHz displayed sine...  (250-200 = 50, so the math checks out  :P)
The HW counter loses it above 100 MHz, until it folds back to < 100 MHz...

Thanks for these! Any chance you could do them one more time with sin(x)/x OFF (linear interpolation ON) just for a comparison? Perhaps it doesn't make much difference with a simple sine wave at 5 pts/div; you might try a set at the smallest timebase as well.

I think the 100 MHz example is displaying aliasing in the digitizer like I described but the variable persistence is concealing it as a thicker trace.  The 120 MHz example definitely shows a problem but it is so extreme that I am not sure if something else is going on.  The 160 MHz example shows what I expected the 100 MHz example to look like.

The 100MHz example is the only one captured while the DSO is running - meaning a snapshot from the intensity buffer while capturing >10,000 waveforms per second. When the DSO is stopped, it's just the last captured waveform - as seen in the other 3 images.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 13, 2014, 09:40:45 pm
Thanks for these! Any chance you could do them one more time with sin(x)/x OFF (linear interpolation ON) just for a comparison? Perhaps it doesn't make much difference with a simple sine wave at 5 pts/div; you might try a set at the smallest timebase as well.
See attachments.
Waveforms look about the same, only the amplitudes are significantly lower.

I think the 100 MHz example is displaying aliasing in the digitizer like I described but the variable persistence is concealing it as a thicker trace.  The 120 MHz example definitely shows a problem but it is so extreme that I am not sure if something else is going on.  The 160 MHz example shows what I expected the 100 MHz example to look like.

The 100MHz example is the only one captured while the DSO is running - meaning a snapshot from the intensity buffer while capturing >10,000 waveforms per second. When the DSO is stopped, it's just the last captured waveform - as seen in the other 3 images.
Yup, correct. An oversight here. A single capture @ 100 MHz shows a "thin" trace like the others.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 13, 2014, 09:45:30 pm
That is a very short list even if you include various ways a 7834 may be used to crush invaders. :)

 ;D

I have a scope cart so it does not crush me if I have to move it. :)

The only thing I find lacking about the 7834 within its limitations is the brightness and clarity of its CRT, it could be considered dim and fuzzy, but all storage CRTs suffer from this problem compared to non-storage CRTs and I did not even notice it until I used a 7904 which is effectively the non-storage version and looks absolutely amazing.

Quote
Quote
...but there are many things the Rigols cannot do that these can and they are the things I require.

No argument there - I was just trying to specify at least one way in which these new, cheap, deep-memory DSOs can outperform some of the great, older gear. I still keep and use my 35-year old Tek 212 - even though it only has a BW of 500kHz - because manufacturers still don't make inexpensive, lightweight, battery-operated, double-insulated (floating to 600V) DSOs - although they're getting closer.

And I just picked one way that they do not meet my needs. :)

I understand the utility of deep memory and have used such DSOs in the past but not because of their deep memory capability.  It is vital for some types of measurements and protocol decoding in certain cases and of course more is always better as long as you do not have to always use it or pay for it.

I think I remember seeing the marketing ads for the Tektronix 212 and its cousins but they were basically before my time and to me they always looked a little weird.

Electrical safety is often underrated by those who should know better.  Aren't oscilloscopes like the Tektronix TPS series close replacements?  I thought I remembered seeing a similar Rigol or Siglent but now I just find the handheld Siglent SHS1000 series.  I used to use an early Fluke Scopemeter but it was neither isolated except for being battery powered and it was hard on the eyes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 13, 2014, 10:06:13 pm
I think the 100 MHz example is displaying aliasing in the digitizer like I described but the variable persistence is concealing it as a thicker trace.  The 120 MHz example definitely shows a problem but it is so extreme that I am not sure if something else is going on.  The 160 MHz example shows what I expected the 100 MHz example to look like.

The 100MHz example is the only one captured while the DSO is running - meaning a snapshot from the intensity buffer while capturing >10,000 waveforms per second. When the DSO is stopped, it's just the last captured waveform - as seen in the other 3 images.

Yup, correct. An oversight here. A single capture @ 100 MHz shows a "thin" trace like the others.

Hmm.  I was going to say you found evidence of the problem I suspected (which is not really a problem unless it affects triggering) but after becoming suspicious of my conclusions and reviewing the DSA815 tracking generator specifications, I do not think it will work for the measurement I had in mind because of its high levels of distortion which are irrelevant in tracking generator applications.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsa-815-tracking-generator-distortion/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsa-815-tracking-generator-distortion/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 13, 2014, 10:52:07 pm
So, if I am understanding the traces:

100 MHz - ok
120 MHz - showing signs of a problem, getting bigger and smaller amplitude
160 MHz - aliasing to 80 MHz
200 MHz - aliasing to 50 MHz

Just out of curiosity, what would this test look like with a square wave?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 02:36:45 am
So, if I am understanding the traces:

100 MHz - ok
120 MHz - showing signs of a problem, getting bigger and smaller amplitude
160 MHz - aliasing to 80 MHz
200 MHz - aliasing to 50 MHz

They show exactly what you would expect given that the source has a high level of distortion; tracking generators do not have to be clean.  The test in this case is not significant except on a gross scale and does not say anything useful about the DSO.

Quote
Just out of curiosity, what would this test look like with a square wave?

I would like to know that myself but only a fast edge is really necessary.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 03:19:39 am
Only the 120 MHz results looks weird to me but I think I know what causes it in this case.  I have seen something similar which appeared to be related to the aperture time of the digitizer implying a non-linear frequency response but I do not think that is it.

The 120MHz result is what I would expect as the sine wave frequency starts to approach the border of the Nyquist frequency (125MHz) - the appearance of amplitude modulation due to 'leakage' (perfectly reproducing a frequency exactly half that of the sampling rate only works in theory). As the frequency reaches Nyquist, the AM will become more extreme. At some point past Nyquist, there is the reappearance of an alias that looks like a normally amplified sine wave again.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 05:42:22 am
As mentioned before, it's fairly easy to turn ON/OFF the 100MHz BW option with SCPI commands, and if the 50MHz BW device had a sharp enough roll-off implemented in the front-end (i.e. attenuating >= 125MHz >= -12db), it would be an alternative way to BW limit the device when using primarily 3/4 channels (while keeping the working BW around the stated 50MHz maximum).

Fairly easy, but kind of clumsy.  And certainly a hassle to do with any regularity.  OTOH, if someone had their scope connected to a PC most of the time, a standalone utility (or a general-purpose utility, hint) could provide the functionality at a click to switch between all of the available bandwidths.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 07:02:00 am
So, if I am understanding the traces:

100 MHz - ok
120 MHz - showing signs of a problem, getting bigger and smaller amplitude
160 MHz - aliasing to 80 MHz  90 MHz
200 MHz - aliasing to 50 MHz

One small correction, above.

Quote
Just out of curiosity, what would this test look like with a square wave?

Similar, but different.   ;)  The sine tests are "pure" fundamentals, while the square wave has all the odd harmonics.  That means that obvious problems would start to surface as low as ~40 MHz.  (You should be pretty much OK up to 25 MHz... "coincidentally" the maximum recommended reliable frequency that's been cited in this thread before, using the 10x rule.)

With linear interpolation this would initially manifest as deformations in the wave shape, but with sin(x)/x, you'd start to get some "interesting" spurs on the crests, looking like ringing and distortion.  But there would already be some spurious amplitude modulation artifacts there, from the 3rd harmonic, as evidenced on the 120 MHz sine.  And it would all turn to crap a lot quicker, as the frequency ramped up from 40 MHz. 

E.g., that 50 MHz alias you saw at 200 MHz, would show up (at reduced amplitude) at ~67 MHz.  But some of the fundamental would still remain, at that point.  Triggering may become less stable, and you'll likely have to adjust threshold and/or holdoff to get it to restabilize.  100 MHz will not be at all OK, as the sine wave was.  So going beyond that will be rather pointless.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 07:18:31 am
One important thing to keep in mind, as you're looking at pa3bca's nicely done sinusoid tests, is that as the frequencies go up, and approach the Nyquist frequency, the first problem is that amplitude anomalies appear.  Not a good thing if you happen to be interested in amplitude, or are counting on it for triggering.  As you pass the Nyquist frequency, you no longer see any of the original waveform!  All you are seeing are aliases, yet they look very "real" even with linear interpolation turned on.

In any non-sinusoidal signal environment (like square waves from digital signals), things are more complicated.  You'll still be able to see the fundamental component, so you think you're good, but you'll be seeing a whole lot more, that isn't really there.  Long before your fundamental reaches Nyquist.  Just like in pa3bca's screen shots.  They will look "real" too, but there won't be any way to tell them apart from actual signal elements.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on October 14, 2014, 07:24:12 am
So Mark, for us inexperienced scope users, are you saying that if you set up the scope to be a 100MHz device, it is still only as good as the 50MHz scope that it was sold as and only good for signals up to 25MHz ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 14, 2014, 07:37:57 am
for us inexperienced scope users, are you saying that if you set up the scope to be a 100MHz device, it is still only as good as the 50MHz scope that it was sold as

No. We're discussing the limits of *all* 100Mhz, 1Gsa/s oscilloscopes (and finding that the DS1054Z/DS1104Z is matching the theory perfectly, maybe even beating it a little...the analog input part seems to be better then 100MHz).

and only good for signals up to 25MHz

And yes, the DS1104Z with all 4 channels turned on isn't much different than the stock DS1054Z with all 4 channels turned on.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 14, 2014, 08:19:48 am
They show exactly what you would expect given that the source has a high level of distortion; tracking generators do not have to be clean.  The test in this case is not significant except on a gross scale and does not say anything useful about the DSO.
I beg to differ. These screenshots show exactly what I expected given that the roll off of the analog front-end above 100+ MHz is not very steep.
The distortion level of the 815 TG has _very_ limited impact on this. It is probably what causes the somewhat imperfect sine @ 100 MHz but I think the influence on the other measurements is irrelevant.
I did some measurements of the 815 TG with my "upgraded" 2072 at 50 and 100 MHz. It looks like the 2nd harmonics are down by approx. 20 dB, so 1/10 of the amplitude of the fundamental. Unlikely that this type of distortion renders the measurements not useful like you suggest.

The amplitude is down by (only) 50% at 200 MHz, so this shows clearly that you need to be very careful if the measured signal has components above say 100 MHz. they _will_ bleed through as aliases.

Distortion of the TG _is_ visible, but nothing spectacular, see attachments.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Towger on October 14, 2014, 08:41:36 am
And yes, the DS1104Z with all 4 channels turned on isn't much different than the stock DS1054Z with all 4 channels turned on.

So the know the hack increases the bandwidth on the 50 and 70mhz models to the full 100 Mhz.

But we have no side by side comparison with proper test equipment between a upgraded DS1054Z and a factory DS1104Z.  There is still every possibility that Rigol is batching them at different speeds after factory testing. Just as with many CPUs the 'slower' ones may operate perfectly well (or good enough) at the higher speeds and faster chips may be badged as slower versions as they sell faster etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 09:04:59 am
for us inexperienced scope users, are you saying that if you set up the scope to be a 100MHz device, it is still only as good as the 50MHz scope that it was sold as

No. We're discussing the limits of *all* 100Mhz, 1Gsa/s oscilloscopes (and finding that the DS1054Z/DS1104Z is matching the theory perfectly, maybe even beating it a little...the analog input part seems to be better then 100MHz).

and only good for signals up to 25MHz

And yes, the DS1104Z with all 4 channels turned on isn't much different than the stock DS1054Z with all 4 channels turned on.

I agree with the comments from Fungus.  Normally I don't like "me too" replies, but since I was the one initially asked, I was concerned my silence might be misinterpreted as disagreement.  He already answered it well.

The only thing I'd add is that the 25 MHz "limitation" is only for non-sinusoidal signals, and only when 3 or 4-channels have been turned on.  There are times when you're working specifically with sinewave generators, and the 25 MHz rule won't apply... even with 4-channels enabled.

So netdudeuk's comment was an oversimplified generalization, that really wasn't what anyone here was saying.  I hope that clears things up.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 09:22:42 am
Part of the difficulty here is using an oscilloscope in place of a logic analyser which would at least have the option of operating synchronously on a clocked data stream from SPI.

Good ones, yes, but surprisingly, not all LA's do.  None of the LA's in the Rigol MSO's do.  Strictly async Sample mode.

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It is worth mentioning that accurately capturing a 60 MHz SPI signal may also present probing difficulties and active probes are not cheap and low-z probes are not ubiquitous (but they are easy to make).  Just having a high bandwidth DSO with a fast sampling rate is not enough if probes with long ground connections are used or if the circuit cannot handle the capacitive loading of a high impedance passive probe or the low input resistance of a low-z probe.

I certainly agree that all those points are worth mentioning.  And remembering.   ;D  Low-Z probes are so easy (and inexpensive) to make that they should be used a lot more often.  Especially when working with high-speed digital logic circuits.  And one nice thing about the Rigol's is their exceptional flexibility wrt selection of the probe multipliers (1x, 2x, 5x, 10x, 20x, etc.), that come in very handy with custom low-Z probes.

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I once designed in a pair of emitter followers to drive 50 ohm transmission lines in place of probes from something that was essentially a very fast SPI.  This worked much better than the active probe I did not have.

That is a great solution, but one that often will not be practical or even possible.  Assuming you're talking about building enhanced Test Points into a board design.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 14, 2014, 10:00:27 am
But we have no side by side comparison with proper test equipment between a upgraded DS1054Z and a factory DS1104Z.  There is still every possibility that Rigol is batching them at different speeds after factory testing. Just as with many CPUs the 'slower' ones may operate perfectly well (or good enough) at the higher speeds and faster chips may be badged as slower versions as they sell faster etc.

Only a very tiny percentage of chips fail at high speeds but magically work at slower speeds.

Most binning is done where chips are designed to keep on working with some parts completely disabled. eg. A CPU could work with half the cache RAM if there's a failure in the other half, a GPU can disable a bank of SIMD processors if there's a defect there, etc.

Binning based on analog front end of oscilloscopes? (ie. some BNC connectors leading to the ADC) Seems unlikely to me. If it fails at 100MHz it's almost certainly going to fail at 50MHz as well.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 10:16:08 am
But to borrow and scale a phrase, a 100 MHz oscilloscope cannot track a 2.5 nanosecond edge but it should be able to measure a delay of 1.0 nanoseconds between two such edges.

Perhaps it 'should', but if the spec says the interchannel delays can be as much as 1-2 ns, using it for such measurements isn't something I'd care to rely on.

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And then I will look at the early LeCroy DSOs which were advertised as having digital triggers and find that they had timing resolution significantly higher than their real time sample rate would suggest.

That's true, but so what?  I have a 9300-series LeCroy, and two 9400-series.  And you are correct about their timing resolution/capabilities.  But they all had ETS (well, RIS), so they got that for "free", because they had a clock (or facsimile thereof) that ran 40x-50x faster.  I see interpolation capabilities in the ps range.  Back about 50 years ago, when I was using LeCroy scopes in the Physics labs at the Uni, picosecond events were extremely important.  But the current "affordable" scopes we're talking about were never intended for that purpose.

So what was the facsimile of the clock which allowed high resolution delay measurements?  RIS as they describe it sure sounds like what I described where transition midpoint timing (*) is derived after reconstruction.

I haven't researched the mechanism they used to implement it, but the 9400 (surprisingly the older generation of the two) has an absolute time-base accuracy spec of +/-10ps, and can do relative interpolation as you're describing, down to 5ps.  My 9300 may be better yet, but the manual is still packed away.

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The Rigol user manual is explicit about supporting a timebase scale of 5 ns/div.  Without interpolation or reconstruction at 250 MS/s, that would produce a pretty awful looking display of a 3.5 nanosecond transition time signal (single-shot or not)

It would be good when sinx/x is feasible, but yes, 'awful' when there's only one sample every 4,000ps.

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...when the display resolution indicates that about a difference of 100 picoseconds should be visible; 800 points / 12 divisions = 66 points per division in the display record but some of that is used by the UI so 50 points per division is more realistic.

50 points/div is standard in all the newer Rigols.  The DS2000 has 14 h-divisions, and the 1000z-family has 12.

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That then comes out to 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.  Coincidentally, the delay calibration is *specified* in the user manual to be 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.

It's not a coincidence at all.  But it would be an easy trap to fall into (as I suspect you are) to then assume this implies something about the timebase capabilities of the hardware.  When instead it simply reflects a display-mapping capability.

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If it is not possible to see 100 picoseconds of delay difference using this oscilloscope, then it is odd that the delay compensation would support that resolution.  Why support it if it cannot be seen anyway?

Because it can be seen.  In fact, that "resolution" is variable, and maps directly into the pixel structure of the display.  It's always 50x the per division time, which is one pixel.  The Delay Calibration goes as low as 20ps on the DS2000 (at 1ns/div), and is used to visually align each channel with the trigger.  That whole fancy chart means nothing more than you can align to the nearest pixel.  (Which will be 20ps, 40ps, 100ps... 20ns, 40ns, 100ns, NoOffset.)

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That is also insignificantly worse than the oldest 100 MHz ETS DSOs that I know of can do.

Probably true, and reflective of the fact that these are not ETS DSOs.   Which is kind of what Marmad and I have been trying to tell you.  >:D

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Now maybe the DS1104Z cannot do the above with a single shot acquisition, but it sure should be able to because it is not difficult and the hardware is capable of supporting it.

 ;D ;D ;D ::)  "should""it is not difficult""the hardware is capable"?  That's a lot of assertions for one sentence.  Sadly there are many things that are not difficult, yet many DSO manufacturers leave them out.  And while there are many technique that could be used to improve the temporal resolution of a scope, that doesn't mean that Rigol incorporated any of them... perhaps due to cost, or difficulty trying to merge them with intensity grading, which they felt was more important/valuable.

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The online reference I like to give for various TDC designs is currently down do to hosting issues but the relevant part of the description for a transition midpoint timing TDC is "A resolution of around 10ps or so is possible when using a 16 bit pipeline ADC clocked at 80MHz or more."  As I recall, these were popular in particle collision experiments because of their adequate resolution and accuracy and their very high measurement rate.

Yes, it was the nuclear physics lab that I was doing particle collision experiments with the LeCroys, back in the olden days.  Not really the 50 years I mentioned, but close enough that my recollections of details are extremely vague.  But I've spent a lot of time working with my own (antique) LeCroys, so I know them pretty well.  And I do rather like the 4000x4000 vector graphics displays (though the burn-in not so much).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Towger on October 14, 2014, 10:40:40 am
Binning based on analog front end of oscilloscopes? (ie. some BNC connectors leading to the ADC) Seems unlikely to me. If it fails at 100MHz it's almost certainly going to fail at 50MHz as well.

If it works (at all) at 50Mhz, I would not see it failing outright at 100Mhz. Rather, the calibration may be out more than the internal calibration can compensate for.  Then again this is pure speculation and I may be talking out my hole. :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 11:41:25 am
Distortion of the TG _is_ visible, but nothing spectacular, see attachments.

@pa3bca: As I've mentioned, since the DS1000Z series doesn't use the LMH6518 in the front-end, it would be nice to know how (and how well) it's handling BW limiting (both for the 20MHz per channel, as well as 50MHz/70MHz for model differentiation). On my DS2000, when I input a 20MHz signal and turn on the 20MHz channel limiter, the signal drops by almost a perfect -3dB. If I input a 100MHz signal, it will be down by approx. -13dB. What are your results given those same parameters?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 12:20:13 pm
But we have no side by side comparison with proper test equipment between a upgraded DS1054Z and a factory DS1104Z.  There is still every possibility that Rigol is batching them at different speeds after factory testing. Just as with many CPUs the 'slower' ones may operate perfectly well (or good enough) at the higher speeds and faster chips may be badged as slower versions as they sell faster etc.

Only a very tiny percentage of chips fail at high speeds but magically work at slower speeds.

Most binning is done where chips are designed to keep on working with some parts completely disabled. eg. A CPU could work with half the cache RAM if there's a failure in the other half, a GPU can disable a bank of SIMD processors if there's a defect there, etc.

Binning based on analog front end of oscilloscopes? (ie. some BNC connectors leading to the ADC) Seems unlikely to me. If it fails at 100MHz it's almost certainly going to fail at 50MHz as well.

The binning if they did this would be for distortion produced anywhere from the BNC to digitizer.

Based on what we know about the amplifiers and ADCs used, it could vary by about 12 dB or so.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 14, 2014, 12:25:59 pm
So, if I am understanding the traces:

100 MHz - ok
120 MHz - showing signs of a problem, getting bigger and smaller amplitude
160 MHz - aliasing to 80 MHz  90 MHz
200 MHz - aliasing to 50 MHz

One small correction, above.

Yep, you are right.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 14, 2014, 12:31:06 pm
@pa3bca: As I've mentioned, since the DS1000Z series doesn't use the LMH6518 in the front-end, it would be nice to know how (and how well) it's handling BW limiting (both for the 20MHz per channel, as well as 50MHz/70MHz for model differentiation). On my DS2000, when I input a 20MHz signal and turn on the 20MHz channel limiter, the signal drops by almost a perfect -3dB. If I input a 100MHz signal, it will be down by approx. -13dB. What are your results given those same parameters?
Ok.
first the TG at 20 MHz and 0 dBm into the scope (with T connector and 50 Ohm terminator of course). 0 dBm should read as 223 mV RMS. Scope displays  252 mV so that's 11% off (almost 2 dB). Wel..... measured the TG output and it is at +0.98 dBm (also for TG functionality not really an issue as you would always normalize first before using the TG), and the scope is no precision voltage measurement device.
Then same 20 MHz in with 20 MHz BW limiting selected.
Output now 195 mW RMS.  20 log(195/252) = -2,2 dB

At 100 MHz:
100 MHz without BW limiting: 212 mV   (-1.5 dB @ 100 MHz, this is an "upgraded" 1072Z :-))
100 MHz with 20 MHz BW limiting: 62.3 mV
20 log (62.3/212) = -10.6 dB

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 14, 2014, 12:42:41 pm
Most binning is done where chips are designed to keep on working with some parts completely disabled.
DRAM chips get binned based on their maximum achievable clock speed for given timings, supply voltages, power, etc. CPUs also get speed-binned based on their maximum achievable clock and the amount of power they draw to reach a given clock speed, same goes for CPLDs, FPGAs and just about all other forms of digital ICs.

Analog ICs may get binned based on linearity, noise, bandwidth, offsets, current draw, etc.

Most of binning is done to narrow down variances in wafer yields. The "disabling defective circuitry" part only applies to a relatively small subset of all ICs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 12:45:13 pm
They show exactly what you would expect given that the source has a high level of distortion; tracking generators do not have to be clean.  The test in this case is not significant except on a gross scale and does not say anything useful about the DSO.

I beg to differ. These screenshots show exactly what I expected given that the roll off of the analog front-end above 100+ MHz is not very steep.
The distortion level of the 815 TG has _very_ limited impact on this. It is probably what causes the somewhat imperfect sine @ 100 MHz but I think the influence on the other measurements is irrelevant.
I did some measurements of the 815 TG with my "upgraded" 2072 at 50 and 100 MHz. It looks like the 2nd harmonics are down by approx. 20 dB, so 1/10 of the amplitude of the fundamental. Unlikely that this type of distortion renders the measurements not useful like you suggest.

It looks like almost 40 dB to me in your measurement but in the other tests I saw it was more like 25 dB.  I was a little surprised this specification was not included but it is just a tracking generator.

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The amplitude is down by (only) 50% at 200 MHz, so this shows clearly that you need to be very careful if the measured signal has components above say 100 MHz. they _will_ bleed through as aliases.

They sure will since the distortion produced in an integrated DSO analog front end and digitizer will probably be on the order of -50 dB.  The DS1000Z series may be a little better (we do not have any information about its channel preamplifier) than that but not by enough to matter.  This would be easy to measure with a low distortion RF signal source.

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Distortion of the TG _is_ visible, but nothing spectacular, see attachments.

What I meant when I refereed to this is that the distortion from the TG is going to conceal the distortion in the DSO unlike that other test with the video I linked to where an RF synthesizer intended for receiver testing was used.  The DSO will show aliasing from the TG distortion products.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 12:47:17 pm
At 100 MHz:
100 MHz without BW limiting: 212 mV   (-1.5 dB @ 100 MHz, this is an "upgraded" 1072Z :-))
100 MHz with 20 MHz BW limiting: 62.3 mV
20 log (62.3/212) = -10.6 dB

Thanks again! It doesn't seem quite as sharp a roll-off as on the DS2000. Could you please check 125MHz (the 3/4 channel Nyquist frequency) with the 20MHz BW limit on? Perhaps both with just 1 channel ON (1GSa/s), and then with all channels ON (250MSa/s)?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 14, 2014, 01:43:16 pm
Thanks again! It doesn't seem quite as sharp a roll-off as on the DS2000. Could you please check 125MHz (the 3/4 channel Nyquist frequency) with the 20MHz BW limit on? Perhaps both with just 1 channel ON (1GSa/s), and then with all channels ON (250MSa/s)?
125 MHz - 250 MSa/s and 1 GSa/s with and without 20 MHz BW filter. See attachments.
This time the shots are taken with the scope in running mode and not n one shot mode. Note the "interesting" amplitude modulation on the first two screenshots, with freq = Nyquist. 125 MHz.
The frequency counter lost it though, even with 1 GSa/s.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 14, 2014, 01:57:29 pm
What I meant when I refereed to this is that the distortion from the TG is going to conceal the distortion in the DSO unlike that other test with the video I linked to where an RF synthesizer intended for receiver testing was used.  The DSO will show aliasing from the TG distortion products.
Ah yes I now see what you mean.  Unfortunately I have nothing here (readily available) that can produce a 100MHz-ish signal where spurious is down more than 50 dB. Could build it (say a 5 pole low-pass after a 100 MHz generator) but not now.
But then again: are we going to see -50dB spurious signals back into the "passband" and into the display? with 8 bit A/D? what am I missing here...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 03:00:52 pm
125 MHz - 250 MSa/s and 1 GSa/s with and without 20 MHz BW filter. See attachments.
This time the shots are taken with the scope in running mode and not n one shot mode. Note the "interesting" amplitude modulation on the first two screenshots, with freq = Nyquist. 125 MHz.
The frequency counter lost it though, even with 1 GSa/s.
Thanks once again for your time and efforts! Not long after I asked you to run the tests, I found a BW chart posted in another thread specifying the 20MHz BW  :-[  (part of the problem with spread-out information on this blog) - so sorry for asking for the duplicated effort.

Using seronday's chart (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/msg337710/#msg337710) (red and green lines), I've revamped my earlier figure showing the (even bigger) risk of aliasing if not limiting the BW to 20MHz when running with 3/4 channels on. The roll-off of the DS1000Z is so slow, that frequency content above Nyquist could be aliasing as high as -2.5db when using 3/4 channels @ 250MSa/s.

Also if these numbers are correct, it's something that might be worth paying attention to even with just 2 channels on (when the Nyquist frequency is 250MHz - the green vertical line), since there will still be a reasonable chance of aliased content being sampled.

Again, this doesn't mean the DS1000Z isn't a great value for the money - it just means you have to remember the limitations when using multiple channels.

EDIT: Fixed a number of errors and added Stan Perkins' measurements (yellow dots and lines).

DS1000Z Frequency response and possible aliased content @ 250MSa/s (3/4 channels ON):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113269)

I've also attached the datasheet for the ADC (HMCAD1511 - zipped) used in the DS1000Z (for those interested).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 03:02:36 pm
But to borrow and scale a phrase, a 100 MHz oscilloscope cannot track a 2.5 nanosecond edge but it should be able to measure a delay of 1.0 nanoseconds between two such edges.

Perhaps it 'should', but if the spec says the interchannel delays can be as much as 1-2 ns, using it for such measurements isn't something I'd care to rely on.

I took this specification to mean that when using multiple channels, the inputs are not simultaneously sampled.  Do we know what ADC the DS1054Z uses?

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And then I will look at the early LeCroy DSOs which were advertised as having digital triggers and find that they had timing resolution significantly higher than their real time sample rate would suggest.

That's true, but so what?  I have a 9300-series LeCroy, and two 9400-series.  And you are correct about their timing resolution/capabilities.  But they all had ETS (well, RIS), so they got that for "free", because they had a clock (or facsimile thereof) that ran 40x-50x faster.  I see interpolation capabilities in the ps range.  Back about 50 years ago, when I was using LeCroy scopes in the Physics labs at the Uni, picosecond events were extremely important.  But the current "affordable" scopes we're talking about were never intended for that purpose.

I used the LeCroy since it was already mentioned as a specific example where timing resolution is not limited by the ADC sample clock and digital triggering is used in place of ETS.  Wasn't LeCroy the first to implement digital triggering?  Maybe they just advertised it as such first.  I remember their advertisements saying how much superior it is to older analog ETS implementations.

They certainly are not making picosecond measurements with 100 MHz bandwidths but what I was trying to say earlier is that at these bandwidths, 100 picosecond resolution if not accuracy is reasonable either by using ETS or reconstruction.

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So what was the facsimile of the clock which allowed high resolution delay measurements?  RIS as they describe it sure sounds like what I described where transition midpoint timing (*) is derived after reconstruction.

I haven't researched the mechanism they used to implement it, but the 9400 (surprisingly the older generation of the two) has an absolute time-base accuracy spec of +/-10ps, and can do relative interpolation as you're describing, down to 5ps.  My 9300 may be better yet, but the manual is still packed away.

You would want low jitter in the timebase to prevent aliasing or at least not increase the distortion introduced by the digitizer.  On oscilloscopes which use ETS, the timebase jitter needs to be comparable or better than the ETS resolution no matter what the ADC sample rate and sampling error is and the same condition applies if digital triggering is used.

This leads to seemingly absurd implementations where a 20 MS/s ADC is paired with ETS with 500 picosecond resolution to yield a 2 GS/s equivalent time sample rate.  No 20 MS/S ADC is likely to support that however so . . . they include a low jitter sample and hold before the ADC so the ADC clock jitter is irrelevant.  Something very similar if not identical is done on these integrated ADCs so their sampling jitter only depends on their sample and hold.

The ADCs being used by Rigol seem to have about 5ps of aperture jitter but the big unknown is their clock source which I would expect to be more like 50ps but it could be worse.  50ps or worse is typical for an FPGA derived clock from a clean source and it would be worse yet if clock multiplication was used which I doubt they did.  Photos from some other Rigol DSOs show that the digitizer clock is not derived from the FPGA but we have no idea how good the integrated clock they used is except by measurement.

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That then comes out to 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.  Coincidentally, the delay calibration is *specified* in the user manual to be 100 picoseconds at 5 ns/div.

It's not a coincidence at all.  But it would be an easy trap to fall into (as I suspect you are) to then assume this implies something about the timebase capabilities of the hardware.  When instead it simply reflects a display-mapping capability.

I would actually expect it to be worse when clock jitter is taken into account but not by a whole lot so 100 picoseconds would be at best achievable after averaging.

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That is also insignificantly worse than the oldest 100 MHz ETS DSOs that I know of can do.

Probably true, and reflective of the fact that these are not ETS DSOs.   Which is kind of what Marmad and I have been trying to tell you.  >:D

And what I have been trying to say is that the difference between an ETS measurement and a triggered measurement made after reconstruction, even linear reconstruction in some cases, is a distinction without a difference as far as timing accuracy except insofar as aliasing has occurred.

If a pure sine source was used as a test signal and no aliasing occurred, then they would produce identical results.  But aliasing degrades the trigger accuracy when digital triggering is used and this happens whether a pure sine source is used or not because significant aliasing occurs do to distortion in the DSOs analog signal chain and digitizer.

The test using the DSA815 tracking generator will not reveal the above because the source itself has more distortion than the DSO analog front end and digitizer produce.

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Now maybe the DS1104Z cannot do the above with a single shot acquisition, but it sure should be able to because it is not difficult and the hardware is capable of supporting it.

 ;D ;D ;D ::)  "should""it is not difficult""the hardware is capable"?  That's a lot of assertions for one sentence.  Sadly there are many things that are not difficult, yet many DSO manufacturers leave them out.  And while there are many technique that could be used to improve the temporal resolution of a scope, that doesn't mean that Rigol incorporated any of them... perhaps due to cost, or difficulty trying to merge them with intensity grading, which they felt was more important/valuable.

I do not disagree but lets say I wanted to replace my good 100 MHz analog oscilloscope which has a trigger jitter in the 100ps range with a DS1104Z.  Does it support the same timing resolution?  This is not just an idle question; I make this sort of measurement all the time.  As far as I can tell, the DS1104Z hardware should support it.

Take the best case scenario with a DS1104Z DSO.  The signals are pure sine waves and averaging is used.  What is the minimum change in delay that can be measured?  What if square waves or fast edges are used instead of sine waves?  The Tektronix application note that Dave linked says under these conditions, ETS and triggering after sin(x)/x interpolation produce virtually identical results and they back it up with a bunch of calculated graphs.

Incidentally, this application note also discusses what could be the difference between a Rigol DS1054Z upgraded to 100 MHz and a DS1104Z.  For years (decades?) now high end DSOs have been implementing frequency and phase compensation after digitization with the filter coefficients determined by calibration at the time of manufacture and if these calibration coefficients are lost by say a backup battery going dead, the DSO becomes a doorstop unless you can get the manufacturer to do the calibration again.  The filter coefficients are even adjusted for different input attenuator settings.  As digital integration increases, it becomes less expensive in materials and time to do this compared to adjusting the analog signal path and I have not noticed any analog adjustments in photos of the DS1000Z or DS2000A series analog section.

If the DS1054Z is only calibrated this way for up to 50 MHz operation, then an upgraded DS1054Z should show transient response abnormalities compared to a true DS1104Z.

There is a guy on Ebay who rebuilds 150 MHz Tektronix 2445 oscilloscopes by removing the hardware bandwidth filter, setting a jumper to make the firmware think it is a 2465, and changing the faceplate to that of a 300 MHz 2465 oscilloscope.  These faux 2465s do indeed have 300 MHz bandwidth or higher but because the original 2445 lacks the rather ingenious frequency and phase compensation network included in a true 2465, the transient response is severely compromised.  Nobody noticed this on these Ebay specials for a long time because they just checked the bandwidth.

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The online reference I like to give for various TDC designs is currently down do to hosting issues but the relevant part of the description for a transition midpoint timing TDC is "A resolution of around 10ps or so is possible when using a 16 bit pipeline ADC clocked at 80MHz or more."  As I recall, these were popular in particle collision experiments because of their adequate resolution and accuracy and their very high measurement rate.

Yes, it was the nuclear physics lab that I was doing particle collision experiments with the LeCroys, back in the olden days.  Not really the 50 years I mentioned, but close enough that my recollections of details are extremely vague.  But I've spent a lot of time working with my own (antique) LeCroys, so I know them pretty well.  And I do rather like the 4000x4000 vector graphics displays (though the burn-in not so much).

I was not surprised to find out that transition midpoint timing or centroid timing TDCs using state of the art ADCs were developed or at least used in particle experiments.  What I find neat now is that cheap DSOs use the same principle.  The situation reminds me of years ago when it was predicted that 3 levels of cache memory used in workstations would migrate down to PCs and now they are not far from being in handheld devices as well.

We need to print up some stickers saying, "Nuclear Technology Inside!"

I have only played with LeCroy oscilloscopes briefly and never long enough for even a poor evaluation.  The 4000x4000 vector graphics display sounds like something I would expect them to do and last time I checked, they still made 12 bit high bandwidth real time DSOs.

The highest display resolution DSO I have is a 7854 (It is sort of a DSO if you squint hard.) which renders a 1024x1024 display and oddly enough uses 102.4 points per division instead of 100 like a sane DSO would.  Since its digitizer is 10 bits, this actually makes sense and it takes advantage of it!  I was very surprised a couple years ago but should not have been when first using it that I could literally see signal characteristics even on a non-index graded display which were invisible on other 8 bit DSOs no matter how I used them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 03:04:21 pm
Do we know what ADC the DS1054Z uses?

Just posted the datasheet (Hittite website: HMCAD1511 (https://www.hittite.com/products/view.html/view/HMCAD1511)) right above your comment two minutes before you posted this.  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 14, 2014, 03:22:57 pm
Only the 120 MHz results looks weird to me but I think I know what causes it in this case.  I have seen something similar which appeared to be related to the aperture time of the digitizer implying a non-linear frequency response but I do not think that is it.

The 120MHz result is what I would expect as the sine wave frequency starts to approach the border of the Nyquist frequency (125MHz) - the appearance of amplitude modulation due to 'leakage' (perfectly reproducing a frequency exactly half that of the sampling rate only works in theory). As the frequency reaches Nyquist, the AM will become more extreme. At some point past Nyquist, there is the reappearance of an alias that looks like a normally amplified sine wave again.

I agree in principle although I would not call it leakage.  I took another look at that test and did some tests of my own to replicate it.  What I see does look like an alias folded back below the Nyquist frequency and relatively close to the fundamental.  What I was saying in my later post is that we cannot know if this was produced in the DSO or if it originated from the test signal because the later has much higher distortion than the DSO has.

It is tedious to do but looking at the 120 MHz example carefully, it looks like a 120 MHz fundamental which is expected with a large spur at 95 MHz and offhand I do not see a way to produce that with aliasing in this case so I think it is just distortion in the source.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 14, 2014, 03:36:51 pm
Only the 120 MHz results looks weird to me but I think I know what causes it in this case.  I have seen something similar which appeared to be related to the aperture time of the digitizer implying a non-linear frequency response but I do not think that is it.

The 120MHz result is what I would expect as the sine wave frequency starts to approach the border of the Nyquist frequency (125MHz) - the appearance of amplitude modulation due to 'leakage' (perfectly reproducing a frequency exactly half that of the sampling rate only works in theory). As the frequency reaches Nyquist, the AM will become more extreme. At some point past Nyquist, there is the reappearance of an alias that looks like a normally amplified sine wave again.

I agree in principle although I would not call it leakage.  I took another look at that test and did some tests of my own to replicate it.  What I see does look like an alias folded back below the Nyquist frequency and relatively close to the fundamental.  What I was saying in my later post is that we cannot know if this was produced in the DSO or if it originated from the test signal because the later has much higher distortion than the DSO has.

It is tedious to do but looking at the 120 MHz example carefully, it looks like a 120 MHz fundamental which is expected with a large spur at 95 MHz and offhand I do not see a way to produce that with aliasing in this case so I think it is just distortion in the source.

Based on the deep AM I think it is very unlikely that this is produced by harmonics of the TG at 120 MHz. Those are at least 20 dB down wrt the fundamental and the "modulation depth" of the signal as shown on the screen is almost 50%.

Did a quick re-test with FTT on. TG at 120 MHz. THis is the best (resolution) I can get at these settings.
The 120 MHz component can be clearly seen, and it looks like at 130 MHz there is another one (confabulated by the scope  :( ). Exactly mirrored around the 125 MHz nyquist.
hmmm..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 14, 2014, 03:49:22 pm
Using seronday's chart (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/msg337710/#msg337710), I've revamped my earlier figure showing the (even bigger) risk of aliasing if not limiting the BW to 20MHz when running with 3/4 channels on. The roll-off of the DS1000Z is so slow, that frequency content above Nyquist could be aliasing as high as almost -2db when using 3/4 channels @ 250MSa/s.

The reference dB was 0.98, so 125Mhz should be at around -3.2dB (given the -2.2 reading), no?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 14, 2014, 03:57:06 pm
Analog ICs may get binned based on linearity, noise, bandwidth, offsets, current draw, etc.

Yep, but he was talking about speed.

Quote from: David Hess
The binning if they did this would be for distortion produced anywhere from the BNC to digitizer.

Based on what we know about the amplifiers and ADCs used, it could vary by about 12 dB or so.

As much as that? That's surprising.

I assume this is what the self calibration is for.

Does that affect bandwidth or just voltage measurements?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 07:29:35 pm
The reference dB was 0.98, so 125Mhz should be at around -3.2dB (given the -2.2 reading), no?
Thanks for pointing out the error. I screwed-up in a few different ways when I edited together the charts: I didn't move from log scale to linear for dB; I didn't fix seronday's odd BW scaling; and most importantly - I forgot that his chart was made on an unaltered DS1074Z - so it reflects a "70MHz" BW limit.

So I've redone and re-posted the chart back at the original message (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg530213/#msg530213) - adding dots and staight lines reflecting Stan Perkins' posted measurements for his 100MHz modified DS1054Z - but if anyone has a more detailed BW frequency response chart for a stock DS1104Z or modified DS1054Z, I'd be happy to add the data.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 14, 2014, 07:37:38 pm
Did a quick re-test with FTT on. TG at 120 MHz. THis is the best (resolution) I can get at these settings.
The 120 MHz component can be clearly seen, and it looks like at 130 MHz there is another one (confabulated by the scope  :( ). Exactly mirrored around the 125 MHz nyquist.
hmmm..
Well better resolution is possible. See attached for FFT's with the TG at 120, 110 and 100 MHz.
the mirror image goes from a few dB's under the fundamental @ 120 Mhz to more than 20 dB with an 100 MHz input signal.
Definitely a DSO artifact, and not caused by spurious/harmonics of the TG..
The AM you saw in the earlier screenshot of the 120 MHz signal is definitely caused by mixing this 120 MHz and the confabulated 130 MHz by the DSO.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on October 14, 2014, 07:54:31 pm


Me? I'm gonna relax and enjoy my 4-channel, top-build-quality, sub-100Mhz-with-four-channels-enabled, 300 Euro oscilloscope...  :-+ (thanks, Rigol!)
that is probably price without vat...on batronix....and that's not the best price in europe it seems to me (marmad already mentioned another option
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-oscillosope/msg514730/#msg514730 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-oscillosope/msg514730/#msg514730)
see marmad, i do know how to use search  ^-^  i can also read. a lot. esp. if it saves me money.  :-+ )

come to think i almost bought 1052 from china.  :palm:

and some leftovers from back pages:

rolycat (about the rigol and hacking)..that's a gray area but also an area where it would be real easy to prove (in the court of law) that rigol actually likes things to remain just like this. (just by showing sales figures for 1052)  ;D

marmad (about search capabilities)...just like i wrote in added edit "it's over, google found us just now, now everybody knows!" which was written prior to your post.
so yeah, now you can, but then? no.
what surprised me was the forum search had the simillar lag as google....

it essentially boils down to what miguelvp said few posts later
Quote
They tried to prevent it but they didn't use the algorithm properly and the private key kind of leaked, don't recall the details, they are buried in the monster thread somewhere.

or what you said
Quote
(part of the problem with spread-out information on this blog)

now, i know what that thread is, but 99% of the planet doesn't, but in essence you're right...who cares if they don't? 1% (or less) of populaton knows what scope is anyway....  ;D

overall a good post from miguel there, and just about the only thing rigol could do (bare in mind that they have rather lil incentive to do anything if sales go like this, and they will go) is to connect scope to web and then update every so often to check if it was hacked (if so, then you..huhm...pay to u nlock it again? hehe).
but nobody would buy such a scope.  ;)


somebody mentioned tek analog scopes of high bandwidth: these flopped for me just based on dimensions....1054z is about the size of 10mhz portable scopes that are now 30 years old.
that's pretty amazing.
(not going into performance specs at all, tek just won't fit on my table (and is not protable at all), and i won't be getting bigger table because of analog scope...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 08:01:33 pm
Definitely a DSO artifact, and not caused by spurious/harmonics of the TG..
The AM you saw in the earlier screenshot of the 120 MHz signal is definitely caused by mixing this 120 MHz and the confabulated 130 MHz by the DSO.
When the upper and lower sidebands created by sampling start overlapping (when approaching Nyquist), first you can get false AM (taught as "leakage" by an old EE teacher of mine) and then aliases.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113279)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 14, 2014, 08:30:08 pm
For people in Belgium, the Netherlands or Luxembourg: The importer arBenelux has only 1 DS1054Z oscilloscope in stock, they hope to receive more before November 1. There is a big electronics fair in the Netherlands on November 1 "Dag voor de Radio Amateur"
http://www.veron.nl/activiteiten/details/activiteiten_dvdra.html (http://www.veron.nl/activiteiten/details/activiteiten_dvdra.html)

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 14, 2014, 11:05:14 pm
It is tedious to do but looking at the 120 MHz example carefully, it looks like a 120 MHz fundamental which is expected with a large spur at 95 MHz and offhand I do not see a way to produce that with aliasing in this case so I think it is just distortion in the source.
No, it's a byproduct of sampling a frequency very close to Nyquist: a false appearance of amplitude modulation. The "modulating signal" is caused by leakage of the fundamental frequency. Here's an image I altered demonstrating the process in action (the red dots are the sample points connected via linear interpolation):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113296)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on October 15, 2014, 12:33:58 am
did you just steal my book?
 :-DD

yes, it's a good one...

as for quasi am, got that recently by connecting square wave gen (2.4khz) to tank circuit...on analog scope...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 15, 2014, 04:25:38 am
Quote from: David Hess
The binning if they did this would be for distortion produced anywhere from the BNC to digitizer.

Based on what we know about the amplifiers and ADCs used, it could vary by about 12 dB or so.

As much as that? That's surprising.

I assume this is what the self calibration is for.

Does that affect bandwidth or just voltage measurements?

I am going by the datasheet specifications for subranging ADCs and amplifiers typically used in these DSOs.  The distortion of the ADC and signal conditioning could vary over that much range between good and not quite as good parts.  Self calibration only applies to the ADC and the numbers include it.  The ADCs are actually surprisingly good.

That number is only an estimate.  It could be worse in poor designs if for instance decoupling is poor or if the sample clock has high jitter which is a common problem.

Note that I do not think the ICs are binned.  I am just suggesting that Rigol might bin the completed boards during self testing because distortion could vary over that wide a range and it gets worse at higher frequencies.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 15, 2014, 04:51:05 am
Do we know what ADC the DS1054Z uses?

Just posted the datasheet (Hittite website: HMCAD1511 (https://www.hittite.com/products/view.html/view/HMCAD1511)) right above your comment two minutes before you posted this.  ;D

Doh!

It was early and I had too much blood in my caffeine stream and the Tardis is in the shop.

Reading the ADC datasheet shows how Rigol likely did gain correction.

I will trade you links though.  A friend forwarded this link to me.  His daughter has to study this video for some class she is doing.  Check out the explanations for Gibbs phenomenon and how reconstruction of a perfect edge works toward the end.

D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell (Monty Montgomery @ xiph.org) - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 15, 2014, 04:56:26 am
What I meant when I refereed to this is that the distortion from the TG is going to conceal the distortion in the DSO unlike that other test with the video I linked to where an RF synthesizer intended for receiver testing was used.  The DSO will show aliasing from the TG distortion products.

Ah yes I now see what you mean.  Unfortunately I have nothing here (readily available) that can produce a 100MHz-ish signal where spurious is down more than 50 dB. Could build it (say a 5 pole low-pass after a 100 MHz generator) but not now.
But then again: are we going to see -50dB spurious signals back into the "passband" and into the display? with 8 bit A/D? what am I missing here...

I was thinking the same thing.  Hack together a simple tuned LC bandpass filter or actually, the frequency range is high enough that maybe a helical resonator could be used.

The 8 bit subranging  ADCs typically used have a spurious free dynamic range which could be as low as 47 dB and and effective number of bits which could be as low as 7.1 bits.  The signal conditioning before that probably will not make it any worse if it is at that level but if it was better which will be typical then it might.

-50 dB spurs may or may not be visible.

While I was out today I had a better idea for a test or at least a more relevant one.  Use a fast transition 1 to 4 MHz flat level crystal controlled square wave and measure the jitter.  Aliasing will occur but how well the DSO handles that counts.  To me that is a more relevant measurement of performance anyway.

I have a couple signal generators as described specifically intended for testing horizontal sweeps and transient response.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2014, 09:44:35 am
Me? I'm gonna relax and enjoy my 4-channel, top-build-quality, sub-100Mhz-with-four-channels-enabled, 300 Euro oscilloscope...  :-+ (thanks, Rigol!)
that is probably price without vat...on batronix....

Yep. I got mine from Batronix ... and I didn't pay VAT  (because I'm European VAT registered and I don't live in Germany).


Check out the explanations for Gibbs phenomenon and how reconstruction of a perfect edge works toward the end.

D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell (Monty Montgomery @ xiph.org) - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM)

Nice video. Those last few minutes certainly need some mulling over to adjust my worldview.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 15, 2014, 10:01:41 am
I will trade you links though.  A friend forwarded this link to me.  His daughter has to study this video for some class she is doing.  Check out the explanations for Gibbs phenomenon and how reconstruction of a perfect edge works toward the end.

D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell (Monty Montgomery @ xiph.org) - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM)
I have found that video, and a couple of related ones by the same guy, to be the best things to refer someone to when they start some brain dead discourse about a sampled signal being a staircase or triangles or other bizarre notion.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2014, 10:28:06 am
I have found that video, and a couple of related ones by the same guy, to be the best things to refer someone to when they start some brain dead discourse about a sampled signal being a staircase or triangles or other bizarre notion.

One thing I don't understand about sampling.... how are the samples actually taken?

Are the samples taken at an instant in time (or in a narrow window) as the theories seem to suggest? In that case, what happens if you sample a sine wave at exactly twice the frequency (eg. 1kHz sine wave, 2kHz sampler)?

a) If I sample at the peaks/troughs, everything is OK.

b) If I sample at the zero-crossing points then the wave will completely disappear (all my samples will be zero).

c) I can also sample at any point between (a) and (b), getting a 1KHz wave with different amplitudes.

If the sampler is very slightly out of sync with the incoming waveform (eg. if I sample at 2.0001 kHz) then I ought to see a 1kHz sine wave with pulsating amplitude, right?

Widening the sample window and taking an average doesn't seem to help, so... how do samplers work?


PS: Sorry for the off-topic, but the last few pages have been full of signal theory.


Edit:

This image shows what I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem#mediaviewer/File:CriticalFrequencyAliasing.svg

At the "critical frequency" (I just found out it has a name) the original wave could have any amplitude at all...even infinite amplitude!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 15, 2014, 11:14:33 am
Are the samples taken at an instant in time (or in a narrow window) as the theories seem to suggest? In that case, what happens if you sample a sine wave at exactly twice the frequency (eg. 1kHz sine wave, 2kHz sampler)?

a) If I sample at the peaks/troughs, everything is OK.

b) If I sample at the zero-crossing points then the wave will completely disappear (all my samples will be zero).

c) I can also sample at any point between (a) and (b), getting a 1KHz wave with different amplitudes.

In DSOs, most sampling normally occurs at uniformly-spaced, instances of time - although there are exceptions. For example, Agilent uses random decimation for slower sample rates to produce nonuniform sampling in order to eliminate aliasing, but at the expense of introducing noise.

And the quandary you bring up about sampling a frequency at fs/2, or even frequencies very close to the Nyquist frequency (like pa3bca's 120MHz - which was fs/2.08) - i.e. that the frequency locations are unknown - is one of the reasons that, although sampling theory states that a sample-rate of 2*BW or larger is sufficient to reproduce frequencies < BW, most papers on DSO sampling and interpolation speak about a fs/2.5 ratio as the absolute minimum for reconstruction.

As seen in pa3bca's images, fs/2.5 (250MSa/2.5 = 100MHz) is working correctly - at least for the simple sine wave ;).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 15, 2014, 01:32:47 pm
It would be nice if there was a website e.g. scopeperformance.com, where experts have measured the actual bandwidth for commercial scopes using the proper equipment.

They could sort the scopes per brand, and by advertised bandwidth, and add a confirmed bandwidth next to it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 15, 2014, 01:59:34 pm
They could sort the scopes per brand, and by advertised bandwidth, and add a confirmed bandwidth next to it.

Just the BW alone would be pointless information by itself. As David Hess noted in this story before:

There is a guy on Ebay who rebuilds 150 MHz Tektronix 2445 oscilloscopes by removing the hardware bandwidth filter, setting a jumper to make the firmware think it is a 2465, and changing the faceplate to that of a 300 MHz 2465 oscilloscope.  These faux 2465s do indeed have 300 MHz bandwidth or higher but because the original 2445 lacks the rather ingenious frequency and phase compensation network included in a true 2465, the transient response is severely compromised.  Nobody noticed this on these Ebay specials for a long time because they just checked the bandwidth.

As he mentions elsewhere in his post, owners reporting that they've changed their DS1000Zs, DS2000As, DS4000s, etc. into the highest BW models by just measuring the BW doesn't actually prove it conclusively. Rigol may be storing filter coefficients determined by calibration at the time of manufacture to implement frequency and phase compensation - and even though you can enter a keycode to change the low-pass filter, it doesn't necessarily mean that the DSO is perfectly calibrated for that BW.

Remember, Rigol doesn't actually SELL bandwidth upgrades. If they did, it would be more likely that those BW-unlocking codes were doing the job completely - since money would be riding on it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 15, 2014, 02:35:11 pm
Can these calibration coefficients be read-out?
This way it would be possible to verify if they differ a lot between e.g. an original MDO2302A and an MSO2072A.

Or can the errors be measured with more extensive measurements besides BW measurement?
Is there a systematic way to do this, according to a unified, standardized test framework, where different test users could contribute to complement the database on the Internet?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 15, 2014, 02:41:20 pm
Can these calibration coefficients be read-out?
This way it would be possible to verify if they differ a lot between e.g. an original MDO2302A and an MSO2072A.

Or can the errors be measured with more extensive measurements besides BW measurement?
Is there a systematic way to do this, according to a unified, standardized test framework, where different test users could contribute to complement the database on the Internet?

To what end? By using unauthorized codes to unlock options, you are getting some extra bandwidth (whether it's perfectly compensated or not) for free. If your livelihood depends on that extra bandwidth, you really should be paying for it - rather than risking some hack.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 15, 2014, 02:42:25 pm
I have found that video, and a couple of related ones by the same guy, to be the best things to refer someone to when they start some brain dead discourse about a sampled signal being a staircase or triangles or other bizarre notion.

One thing I don't understand about sampling.... how are the samples actually taken?

Are the samples taken at an instant in time (or in a narrow window) as the theories seem to suggest? In that case, what happens if you sample a sine wave at exactly twice the frequency (eg. 1kHz sine wave, 2kHz sampler)?

With a sampling converter, they are taken in a narrow window which usually has nothing to do with the sample rate.  With an integrating converter, the sampling duration is intimately related to the sample rate.  Delta-sigma converters are integrating converters and DSOs act as if they have integrating converters when operating in high resolution mode.

Quote
a) If I sample at the peaks/troughs, everything is OK.

b) If I sample at the zero-crossing points then the wave will completely disappear (all my samples will be zero).

c) I can also sample at any point between (a) and (b), getting a 1KHz wave with different amplitudes.

If the sampler is very slightly out of sync with the incoming waveform (eg. if I sample at 2.0001 kHz) then I ought to see a 1kHz sine wave with pulsating amplitude, right?

If everything is perfect then yes and this is where I disagree with some here.  The behavior of practical instruments with perfect inputs close to the Nyquist frequency is a reflection of imperfections in the digitizer including sampling error and non-linearity which produce distortion not present in the original signal.  If the distortion produced in the digitizer is above the Nyquist frequency, it causes aliasing.  With a better digitizer, you can get more accurate reconstructions closer to the Nyquist frequency.  Usually the simplest way to get a better digitizer is to increase the sampling rate.

Quote
Widening the sample window and taking an average doesn't seem to help, so... how do samplers work?

As a practical manner they do average or sort of average the input over some duration of time but usually this is much smaller than the length of time between samples.  The sampling duration sets an upper limit on the input bandwidth and creates a non-linear frequency response limiting the 3 dB bandwidth to 0.442/t.  If the sampling duration was 1ns for instance, there would be a 3 dB input bandwidth of 442 MHz and null at 1 GHz and every integer multiple of 1 GHz which is not something you find in a linear system.  This also changes the bandwidth to rise time relationship so it is no longer the bandwidth = 0.35/tr found with a single pole rolloff but more like 0.47/tr.  This is different than using a sharp anti-aliasing filter which is linear but which also affects the rise time similarly.

Old style sampling oscilloscopes have tiny sampling durations measured in picoseconds giving them very high bandwidths but their frequency response is decidedly non-linear and the bandwidth = 0.35/tr relationship does not usually apply to them.

Quote
This image shows what I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem#mediaviewer/File:CriticalFrequencyAliasing.svg

At the "critical frequency" (I just found out it has a name) the original wave could have any amplitude at all...even infinite amplitude!

If you sample synchronously so the input is at the Nyquist frequency, then you get an in indeterminate output which changes based on the phase relationship.  Sampling phase detectors take advantage of this.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 15, 2014, 02:54:01 pm
Can these calibration coefficients be read-out?
This way it would be possible to verify if they differ a lot between e.g. an original MDO2302A and an MSO2072A.

If they exist then maybe but it is not required.  See below.

Quote
Or can the errors be measured with more extensive measurements besides BW measurement?

Is there a systematic way to do this, according to a unified, standardized test framework, where different test users could contribute to complement the database on the Internet?

Sure, I do it all the time.  Use a reference flat top pulse generator and measure the transient response.  I suspect there is also a way to do this using vector network analyser techniques but a VNA guru should answer that.

Almost as good and more useful would be to compare the transient response of the upgraded DSO to the true one.  If there is a calibration or grading difference, it should be revealed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 15, 2014, 03:00:26 pm
Can these calibration coefficients be read-out?
This way it would be possible to verify if they differ a lot between e.g. an original MDO2302A and an MSO2072A.

Or can the errors be measured with more extensive measurements besides BW measurement?
Is there a systematic way to do this, according to a unified, standardized test framework, where different test users could contribute to complement the database on the Internet?

To what end? By using unauthorized codes to unlock options, you are getting some extra bandwidth (whether it's perfectly compensated or not) for free. If your livelihood depends on that extra bandwidth, you really should be paying for it - rather than risking some hack.

The guy who was converting those analog Tektronix oscilloscopes I mentioned made the same argument and I largely agree.  What we disapproved of was him selling the modified oscilloscopes and representing them as the originals as far as performance with no notification of the difference which would have lowered their selling price.

If you used one of the modified oscilloscopes expecting the clean transient response of the true ones, your measurements would be compromised.  People who are using 300+ MHz oscilloscopes with passive x10 probes are unlikely to see the difference except under ideal conditions.  The same is likely to apply here.  How many people are looking at 3.5 nanosecond and faster transition time signals with their Rigol DS1054Z which has been hacked to 100 MHz and would notice?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 15, 2014, 06:00:17 pm
If the sampler is very slightly out of sync with the incoming waveform (eg. if I sample at 2.0001 kHz) then I ought to see a 1kHz sine wave with pulsating amplitude, right?
If everything is perfect then yes...
Absolutely not. As already shown in both my earlier posted drawing and pa3bca's 120MHz image, both the amplitude and frequency are shifted by leakage when close to Nyquist. This is not much of an issue in the time domain, since no one normally attempts to sample and reconstruct signals close to fs/2 - but in the frequency domain it's a different story because of the nature of the FFT process, and has led to various adaptive sampling-frequency algorithms.

Quote
...and this is where I disagree with some here.
Sorry David, you may disagree - but you're just plain wrong. :)  This has nothing to do with digitizers - it's just math. I dug around online and found the following info for you from a computational physics course:

"To see the problem of frequency leakage, one can simply look at a plot of the function f(t)=cos(3t) and the sampled data points with a sampling rate of one per second ( red circle)."

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113353)

"In this case, the sampling rate is one per second and its corresponding Nyquist frequency is 0.5 Hz. The actual frequency of the function is 0.477 Hz (3/2pi) and under-sampling is not a problem. However, the mismatch of the the fundamental frequency and the sampling frequency introduces spurious low frequency components in the sampled data. Note the slow oscillation in the sampled data. The result of this mismatch is that the power of the fundamental frequency leaks into other frequencies. This can be seen from the following power spectra."

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113355)

"The peaks at the fundamental frequency are broadened by this effect. As the total length of the data increases, the resolution in frequencies increases and the peak at the fundamental frequency gets sharper."
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 15, 2014, 06:41:10 pm
The Rigol R&D department consists of many highly skilled electrical engineers, with master degrees, and probably many with PhD degree as well. They know all these mathematics and physics very well.
So from that perspective their equipment should be designed to meet all the constraints imposed by physical laws and sampling theorems.

Therefore I believe that their low-pass filter, ADC specs, and software algorithms are most likely well engineered and configured in an optimal way.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 15, 2014, 07:34:11 pm
The Rigol R&D department consists of many highly skilled electrical engineers, with master degrees, and probably many with PhD degree as well. They know all these mathematics and physics very well.
So from that perspective their equipment should be designed to meet all the constraints imposed by physical laws and sampling theorems.

Therefore I believe that their low-pass filter, ADC specs, and software algorithms are most likely well engineered and configured in an optimal way.

The first sentence: yes, obviously. "You canna break the laws of physics captain"
Second sentence: No.
You left out at least two other important dimensions. Money and time. Where money is probably the most important one..
For instance very good/sharp roll off filters are expensive and introduce other issues. So no, at $399 this is not the best that is technically possible given physics laws.. But for the money it comes d*mned close and it is certainly well engineered..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 15, 2014, 07:45:04 pm
Absolutely not. As already shown in both my earlier posted drawing and pa3bca's 120MHz image, both the amplitude and frequency are shifted by leakage when close to Nyquist. This is not much of an issue in the time domain, since no one normally attempts to sample and reconstruct signals close to fs/2 - but in the frequency domain it's a different story because of the nature of the FFT process, and has led to various adaptive sampling-frequency algorithms.

Quote
...and this is where I disagree with some here.
Sorry David, you may disagree - but you're plain wrong. :)  This has nothing to do with digitizers - it's just math. I dug around online and found the following info for you from a computational physics course:
Agree with Marmad.
With the fundamental near fs/2 the mirror frequency (i.e. fs-f) has almost the same amplitude shown by the scope (see the FFT's)
My 120 MHz has a "mirror frequency" of 250(fs)-120 = 130 MHz. Add these to together and you get an amplitude modulated signal with an modulation frequency of 130-120 = 10 MHz. See attached screenshot with the TG at 120 MHz and 250 Ms/s.

No way this can be caused by harmonics/spurious of the 120 MHz TG signal. (I can find no other mathematical relation, and the amplitudes would be way off)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2014, 10:32:00 pm
And the quandary you bring up about sampling a frequency at fs/2, or even frequencies very close to the Nyquist frequency (like pa3bca's 120MHz - which was fs/2.08) - i.e. that the frequency locations are unknown - is one of the reasons that, although sampling theory states that a sample-rate of 2*BW or larger is sufficient to reproduce frequencies < BW, most papers on DSO sampling and interpolation speak about a fs/2.5 ratio as the absolute minimum for reconstruction.

...and presumably the"bandwidth times ten" grows upwards from there.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 02:05:57 am
So no, at $399 this is not the best that is technically possible given physics laws.. But for the money it comes d*mned close and it is certainly well engineered..

The price is pretty astounding. The ADC alone is listed at ~$62 in quantities of 500 from Digikey.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 16, 2014, 07:49:44 am
So no, at $399 this is not the best that is technically possible given physics laws.. But for the money it comes d*mned close and it is certainly well engineered..

The price is pretty astounding. The ADC alone is listed at ~$62 in quantities of 500 from Digikey.

Rigol can probably get it cheaper but yeah, it would be interesting to see the BOM. It's hard to see how they're making any money on these. As noted, they don't seem to be skimping on components or materials.

I guess it's because they've been selling them more expensive for a while (DS1074Z/DS1104Z) and have got enough R&D investment back to make the $400 DS1054Z possible.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 08:34:11 am
The price is pretty astounding. The ADC alone is listed at ~$62 in quantities of 500 from Digikey.
Pricing up the BOM of a product from Digikey prices is like pricing up the BOM of a car from the cost of spares at your local dealer.

I suspect Rigol buy at least 501 of these devices and get a somewhat better price.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 10:36:49 am
Pricing up the BOM of a product from Digikey prices is like pricing up the BOM of a car from the cost of spares at your local dealer.

Not quite. It's more like getting the price of 500 catalytic converters from a wholesaler of automobile parts.

Quote
I suspect Rigol buy at least 501 of these devices and get a somewhat better price.  :)

Obviously. But this is an oscilloscope, not an iPhone - Rigol's not selling 12 million (or even 12 thousand) a month. I never suspected they paid close to that amount, but that (and the $73 single-unit price) gives me a ballpark idea of what they might be paying for it.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 16, 2014, 11:06:41 am
Just watched the teardown video...

The analog input part is a lot more complicated than I would have guessed.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 11:19:14 am
But this is an oscilloscope, not an iPhone - Rigol's not selling 12 million (or even 12 thousand) a month. I never suspected they paid close to that amount, but that (and the $73 single-unit price) gives me a ballpark idea of what they might be paying for it.  :)
Oscilloscope volumes can be surprisingly high, and Rigol is one of the more successful players. I wouldn't be surprised if they made 12k a month of this entry level model. I would be very surprised if they paid even $10 for that ADC chip.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 11:27:12 am
Oscilloscope volumes can be surprisingly high, and Rigol is one of the more successful players. I wouldn't be surprised if they made 12k a month of this entry level model. I would be very surprised if they paid even $10 for that ADC chip.

Would like to post some actual data to support any of this?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 11:38:23 am
Oscilloscope volumes can be surprisingly high, and Rigol is one of the more successful players. I wouldn't be surprised if they made 12k a month of this entry level model. I would be very surprised if they paid even $10 for that ADC chip.

Would like to post some actual data to support any of this?
I was amazed to find a very obscure maker of simple scopes was making a couple of thousand a month some years ago, so 12k a month for a world class producer doesn't sound odd to me.

As for the IC price, just look at the pricing of most stuff on Digikey, compared to what real negotiated prices look like. Some of them are 50 times a reasonable price. You go to Digikey to get a few bits quickly to make experimental setups and prototypes. Its not where you go for serious production. I'm not knocking Digikey. Convenience is expensive to provide. The die for this chip isn't going to be huge, although the test costs might be significant - high speed mixed signal testing costs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 16, 2014, 11:45:24 am
"To see the problem of frequency leakage, one can simply look at a plot of the function f(t)=cos(3t) and the sampled data points with a sampling rate of one per second ( red circle)."

"In this case, the sampling rate is one per second and its corresponding Nyquist frequency is 0.5 Hz. The actual frequency of the function is 0.477 Hz (3/2pi) and under-sampling is not a problem. However, the mismatch of the the fundamental frequency and the sampling frequency introduces spurious low frequency components in the sampled data. Note the slow oscillation in the sampled data. The result of this mismatch is that the power of the fundamental frequency leaks into other frequencies. This can be seen from the following power spectra."

"The peaks at the fundamental frequency are broadened by this effect. As the total length of the data increases, the resolution in frequencies increases and the peak at the fundamental frequency gets sharper."

I do not disagree with any of the above.  I think it is being applied incorrectly here.

The sampled points shown alone display exactly what is described but the examples I am familiar with include sin(x)/x reconstruction after sampling which reproduces the original waveform including the peaks correctly.

On DSOs that I have used under the proper conditions (I would not normally be measuring pure sine waves close to Nyquist) I can generate exactly what is shown and described with reconstruction disabled and then restore the original waveform, which is close to Nyquist but not exceeding it, with reconstruction turned on.  If aliasing is present for whatever reason, and it will always be present because of imperfections in the digitizer no matter how pure the input signal is, then that fails and I get the result described anyway in a lessor or greater form.  That is a distinction without a difference on the practical side but is not what is being described above.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 11:46:04 am
I was amazed to find a very obscure maker of simple scopes was making a couple of thousand a month some years ago, so 12k a month for a world class producer doesn't sound odd to me.

As for the IC price, just look at the pricing of most stuff on Digikey, compared to what real negotiated prices look like. Some of them are 50 times a reasonable price. You go to Digikey to get a few bits quickly to make experimental setups and prototypes. Its not where you go for serious production. I'm not knocking Digikey. Convenience is expensive to provide. The die for this chip isn't going to be huge, although the test costs might be significant - high speed mixed signal testing costs.

I love your enthusiasm and righteousness, but once again - I posted a fact: HMCAD5211 at $62 for 500 units - you've posted stories and speculation, but no actual data. Most people know good (and even not so good) ADCs are expensive - even in quantities of 10k.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 12:12:24 pm
I love your enthusiasm and righteousness, but once again - I posted a fact: HMCAD5211 at $62 for 500 units - you've posted stories and speculation, but no actual data. Most people know good (and even not so good) ADCs are expensive - even in quantities of 10k.
Get real. You quoted a Digikey price. For a quantity of 500 the vendor won't talk to you, but their main distributors will. If you'd quoted a price from them you'd have more credibility.

Let's say Rigol only make 2k a month. They've made the previous model for about 7 or 8 years, haven't they? If this model runs as long that would be 170k or so. You can start talking about serious contracted prices with the vendor for a production run like that and a fairly high value part.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 16, 2014, 12:15:37 pm
I love your enthusiasm and righteousness, but once again - I posted a fact: HMCAD5211 at $62 for 500 units - you've posted stories and speculation, but no actual data. Most people know good (and even not so good) ADCs are expensive - even in quantities of 10k.

I found the same price and did not think much of it other than what an amazing deal even though Digi-Key and similar distributors will be at the high end of the price scale.  I would hope Rigol is buying directly from Hittite with their volume.

I remember similar parts in the past costing at least an order of magnitude more for less performance and functionality.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 12:19:30 pm
Get real. You quoted a Digikey price.

Yes, I quoted a price. OTOH, you've invented sales volumes and prices.  :)

I would hope Rigol is buying directly from Hittite with their volume.

I would think so. Not so sure about the < $10 a piece price though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 12:30:24 pm
I love your enthusiasm and righteousness, but once again - I posted a fact: HMCAD5211 at $62 for 500 units - you've posted stories and speculation, but no actual data. Most people know good (and even not so good) ADCs are expensive - even in quantities of 10k.

I found the same price and did not think much of it other than what an amazing deal even though Digi-Key and similar distributors will be at the high end of the price scale.  I would hope Rigol is buying directly from Hittite with their volume.

I remember similar parts in the past costing at least an order of magnitude more for less performance and functionality.

Its not that long ago you couldn't buy such functionality as a chip, even at exotic niche product prices. Times change, and devices like this do have volume applications now. Hittite describes (or is it described now they are part of ADI) itself as a microwave company. That tells you what their core market is.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 16, 2014, 01:36:57 pm
The sampled points shown alone display exactly what is described but the examples I am familiar with include sin(x)/x reconstruction after sampling which reproduces the original waveform including the peaks correctly.

I'm not sure I understand you. It's obvious that sin(x)/x being run on the displayed sampled points will not reproduce the original waveform correctly. In fact, not only does sin(x)/x interpolation reproduce just what we saw in pa3bca's 120MHz image, but I can reproduce the exact same results by setting my DSO at any sampling rate and sending it a sine wave with the frequency of ~fs/2.08 (and other frequencies close to - but less than - the Nyquist frequency).

Quote
On DSOs that I have used under the proper conditions (I would not normally be measuring pure sine waves close to Nyquist) I can generate exactly what is shown and described with reconstruction disabled and then restore the original waveform, which is close to Nyquist but not exceeding it, with reconstruction turned on.

I don't know what you mean by 'the proper conditions', but the math above says that it would be extremely difficult to do that over much time. The Nyquist theorem simply states that if a signal contains no frequencies higher than B, it is mathematically possible to reproduce it by a series of points spaced 1/(2B). It says nothing about the length of the sampling. Leakage occurs over time; it's window dependent - e.g. if you just sample a cycle or two of a 120MHz sine wave at 250MSa/s, you can get a reproduction of the frequency of the waveform - thus satisfying the Nyquist theorem. But if you begin to sample more cycles than that, leakage WILL occur.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 16, 2014, 06:59:11 pm
The sampled points shown alone display exactly what is described but the examples I am familiar with include sin(x)/x reconstruction after sampling which reproduces the original waveform including the peaks correctly.

I'm not sure I understand you. It's obvious that sin(x)/x being run on the displayed sampled points will not reproduce the original waveform correctly. In fact, not only does sin(x)/x interpolation reproduce just what we saw in pa3bca's 120MHz image, but I can reproduce the exact same results by setting my DSO at any sampling rate and sending it a sine wave with the frequency of ~fs/2.08 (and other frequencies close to - but less than - the Nyquist frequency).

Quote
On DSOs that I have used under the proper conditions (I would not normally be measuring pure sine waves close to Nyquist) I can generate exactly what is shown and described with reconstruction disabled and then restore the original waveform, which is close to Nyquist but not exceeding it, with reconstruction turned on.

I don't know what you mean by 'the proper conditions', but the math above says that it would be extremely difficult to do that over much time. The Nyquist theorem simply states that if a signal contains no frequencies higher than B, it is mathematically possible to reproduce it by a series of points spaced 1/(2B). It says nothing about the length of the sampling. Leakage occurs over time; it's window dependent - e.g. if you just sample a cycle or two of a 120MHz sine wave at 250MSa/s, you can get a reproduction of the frequency of the waveform - thus satisfying the Nyquist theorem. But if you begin to sample more cycles than that, leakage WILL occur.
Yes and what we have seen has nothing to do with the impurities of the applied signal. Yes impurities above Nyquist will fold back and show up, but even with my DSA815's 'crappy' TG this would be far down in the noise (i.e invisible).

As further proof: 24 MHz generated by my DG1032Z, DS2072A at 50 MSa/s.
Spurious of the DG1032 is at -60dB(2nd harmonic) to -70dB for others. Not stellar but quite sufficient thank you. So now we might all agree that spurious signals cannot have any visible influence on the displayed signals.
And as expected the scope shows an 'Amplitude modulated" signal. Modulation frequency of (25-24) - (25-26) = 2 MHz, 26 MHz being the "mirror" of the 24 MHz signal wrt to Fnyquist. All as explained by Marmad.
And (but maybe I misunderstood David) reconstruction will not restore the original 24 MHz waveform.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Electro Fan on October 16, 2014, 08:01:50 pm

As further proof: 24 MHz generated by my DG1032Z, DS2072A at 50 MSa/s.
Spurious of the DG1032 is at -60dB(2nd harmonic) to -70dB for others. Not stellar but quite sufficient thank you. So now we might all agree that spurious signals cannot have any visible influence on the displayed signals.
And as expected the scope shows an 'Amplitude modulated" signal. Modulation frequency of (25-24) - (25-26) = 2 MHz, 26 MHz being the "mirror" of the 24 MHz signal wrt to Fnyquist/2. All as explained by Marmad.
And (but maybe I misunderstood David) reconstruction will not restore the original 24 MHz waveform.

pa3bca, what Rigol product or user interface is shown in the image below? Maybe PC software or something else associated with the DG1032Z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 16, 2014, 08:05:32 pm
pa3bca, what Rigol product or user interface is shown in the image below?
Rigol DSA815 TG Spectrum Analyzer.
I wanted to have an SA since I was 14 years old or so (looong time ago). Too expensive (then) or to bulky&expensive for hobby use until this came out.
Bought one immediately, very happy with it!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Electro Fan on October 16, 2014, 08:08:46 pm
Very nice - please explain the cabling setup you used with the SA, DG1032Z, and scope.  How do you like the DG1032Z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 16, 2014, 08:18:30 pm
Very nice - please explain the setup you used with the SA, DG1032Z, and scope.  How do you like the DG1032Z?
Oh I used the DG1032Z to output a 24 MHz sine at 0dBm. Into the spectrum analyzer to check the output/spurious. (as shown above).
Notice how the SA agrees exactly on the output level of 0.00 dBm  :) I find both the SA and the DG performing very nice (well, all my Rigol stuff performs nice, especially if you look at the price points).
Then the the output of the DG to my DS2072 ("upgraded").
The DG1032Z performs nicely, in spec, use it a lot. The fan however is was rather noisy, easily the noisiest of all my Rigol devices. And it has I think the lowest power consumption of them all so go figure. I replaced the 50mm fan with a quite one, now it is almost inaudible and all stays cool enough.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 17, 2014, 04:08:56 am
I remember similar parts in the past costing at least an order of magnitude more for less performance and functionality.

Its not that long ago you couldn't buy such functionality as a chip, even at exotic niche product prices. Times change, and devices like this do have volume applications now. Hittite describes (or is it described now they are part of ADI) itself as a microwave company. That tells you what their core market is.

Tektronix was making their own custom high speed ADCs when they sold their silicon fab to Maxim and then they bought from Maxim and others got access to those high speed ADCs as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 17, 2014, 04:18:26 am
Tektronix was making their own custom high speed ADCs when they sold their silicon fab to Maxim and then they bought from Maxim and others got access to those high speed ADCs as well.
That was 20 years ago. Back then Maxim would not have been able to sell a high performance converter to a Chinese company. Even now Chinese companies wanting state of the art converters end up sending delegations to Washington to plead for them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 17, 2014, 04:18:49 am
Yes and what we have seen has nothing to do with the impurities of the applied signal. Yes impurities above Nyquist will fold back and show up, but even with my DSA815's 'crappy' TG this would be far down in the noise (i.e invisible).

I agree because I was looking for two different things and I think I got the math wrong and saw the image instead of the distortion but now I have a better idea.

Quote
And (but maybe I misunderstood David) reconstruction will not restore the original 24 MHz waveform.

I cannot find it now but you or someone else said the distortion would not have been high enough to create the AM modulation depth we saw so I was thinking about what could cause that.  The image added to the fundamental would do it if the image was lower amplitude and the reconstruction filter is attenuating the image would cause that.  Does that explain it?

If the reconstruction filter has a finite attenuation at the mirror frequency, then it should add back to the fundamental and cause large but not 100% AM modulation.  Does that make this test a way to measure what order and type of reconstruction filter Rigol used?

This fits with the earlier post marmad made about leakage.  I know I have run across that before but did not recognize it because the terminology was different.  A sharper reconstruction filter would allow one to get closer to the Nyquist frequency.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 17, 2014, 04:30:28 am
Tektronix was making their own custom high speed ADCs when they sold their silicon fab to Maxim and then they bought from Maxim and others got access to those high speed ADCs as well.

That was 20 years ago. Back then Maxim would not have been able to sell a high performance converter to a Chinese company. Even now Chinese companies wanting state of the art converters end up sending delegations to Washington to plead for them.

I had not considered that but I am sure it was the case because of export restrictions.  They continued to make custom ICs for Tektronix as well for at least some time.  I have one Maxim marked part with Tektronix part number with a date code of the 50th week of 1994 which fits with the other Maxim parts showing up in the late 24xx series oscilloscopes which were made between 1989 and 1996.  Wikipedia says the date was 1994.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 17, 2014, 04:45:37 am
I had not considered that but I am sure it was the case because of export restrictions.  They continued to make custom ICs for Tektronix as well for at least some time.  I have one Maxim marked part with Tektronix part number with a date code of the 50th week of 1994 which fits with the other Maxim parts showing up in the late 24xx series oscilloscopes which were made between 1989 and 1996.  Wikipedia says the date was 1994.
I thought all the 24xx scopes used CCDs for sampling, and had very mediocre ADCs. I think Tek made those CCDs, and they were pretty neat technology for the time.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 17, 2014, 10:38:42 am
This fits with the earlier post marmad made about leakage.  I know I have run across that before but did not recognize it because the terminology was different. A sharper reconstruction filter would allow one to get closer to the Nyquist frequency.
No, this wouldn't help. Reconstruction filters are, of course, low pass filters designed to remove spurious high-frequency content (above Nyquist) in the sampled data. As stated in the physics post I made (and visible in the examples), leakage "...introduces spurious low frequency components in the sampled data." A look at the power spectra graph from that post confirms that the "power of the fundamental frequency" leaks into other lower frequencies.

As I noted before, there has been a continual development of adaptive sampling-frequency algorithms (to minimize the mismatch between input frequency and sampling rate) over the last few years to combat leakage (specifically for use with FFTs). There are a number of various papers (http://www.ijeit.com/vol%201/Issue%202/IJEIT1412201202_08.pdf) on it if you're interested.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 17, 2014, 01:34:03 pm
I had not considered that but I am sure it was the case because of export restrictions.  They continued to make custom ICs for Tektronix as well for at least some time.  I have one Maxim marked part with Tektronix part number with a date code of the 50th week of 1994 which fits with the other Maxim parts showing up in the late 24xx series oscilloscopes which were made between 1989 and 1996.  Wikipedia says the date was 1994.

I thought all the 24xx scopes used CCDs for sampling, and had very mediocre ADCs. I think Tek made those CCDs, and they were pretty neat technology for the time.

I mean the analog 24xx series oscilloscopes.

On the digital 24xx series DSOs, I think the CCDs were what made them mediocre (but fast) rather than the slow ADCs.  For many years CCD based digitizers were many times faster than ADC/memory digitizers for a given price.

Another problem with the CCD digitizers is that they have terrible overload recovery; the CCDs may be saturated just like a photographic CCD suffers from blooming.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 17, 2014, 01:38:37 pm
No, this wouldn't help. Reconstruction filters are, of course, low pass filters designed to remove spurious high-frequency content (above Nyquist) in the sampled data. As stated in the physics post I made (and visible in the examples), leakage "...introduces spurious low frequency components in the sampled data." A look at the power spectra graph from that post confirms that the "power of the fundamental frequency" leaks into other lower frequencies.
interested.

Now I am confused.  Are you referring to the analog antialiasing filter before the digitizer or the reconstruction filter after the digitizer?  If aliasing occurs then the later cannot do anything about it.

Quote
As I noted before, there has been a continual development of adaptive sampling-frequency algorithms (to minimize the mismatch between input frequency and sampling rate) over the last few years to combat leakage (specifically for use with FFTs). There are a number of various papers on it if you're interested.

I like the paper but I am surprised someone wrote one about this and I do not understand how it applies in this case.

Phase locking the sampling frequency to the source to remove spectral leakage in FFTs is obvious especially if you are only concerned about one frequency or multiple phase coherent frequencies.  Some GPSDOs do the same thing to remove jitter in the time domain or spectral leakage in the frequency domain when they have a DDS synthesized output.  DDS driven PLL multipliers may do this to avoid dual modulus PLL multiplication.

The idea also reminds me of synchronous demodulation and orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing.  In the later case, don't they phase lock the receiver to the transmitted carrier so the FFTs do not suffer from spectral leakage?

Don't some FFT based spectrum analyzers sweep their sample rate just a little bit to take leakage free measurements on multiple signals?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 17, 2014, 02:35:12 pm
Now I am confused.  Are you referring to the analog antialiasing filter before the digitizer or the reconstruction filter after the digitizer?  If aliasing occurs then the later cannot do anything about it.

Both are low-pass filters. Leakage is a phenomenon that is not associated with aliasing (since it happens below Nyquist) and is not preventable by antialiasing or reconstruction filters.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 17, 2014, 04:01:03 pm
Now I am confused.  Are you referring to the analog antialiasing filter before the digitizer or the reconstruction filter after the digitizer?  If aliasing occurs then the later cannot do anything about it.

Both are low-pass filters. Leakage is a phenomenon that is not associated with aliasing (since it happens below Nyquist) and is not preventable by antialiasing or reconstruction filters.
Yes, and we established that in the screenshots I made there were no frequency components above Nyquist, so aliasing was not occurring.
But when reconstructing after the digitizer the scope is unable to reliably reconstruct the real 120 MHz signal, as this is too near the Nyquist frequency.
note: what results is not really an AM signal, but a DSB signal (or AM with suppressed carrier, the sine does not ride the wave) -equivalent to the summation of the original "real" 120 MHz and the leaked "mirror" at 130 MHz. In the FFT's a few pages ago and attached here you can see that the amplitude of the mirror grows as the sampled frequency approaches Fnyquist. The result is shown as a double-sideband signal, not really an AM signal as there is no power in the central frequency of 125 MHz.
All this is after the digitizer and no aliasing occurring.
So as Marmad noticed this leakage is no issue till say Fsample/2.5 (my 100 MHz). There the leakage is so small is does not show any more.
As I understand it (now) up until Fnyquist you can reconstruct the frequency, but the amplitude information gets lost above Fsample/2.5. Just too few samples, and these samples "shift" along the wave resulting in the AM like waveform
Looking at the samples near Fnyquist themselves I am not even sure that a reliable reconstruction of the amplitude is even possible, and that it has nothing to do with errors in the reconstruction algorithms used by Rigol? At least that is what the documentation Marmad supplied is suggesting.
Interesting learning experience. This goes to show that one should be really really careful when interpreting displayed waveforms even long before FNyquist.  So the DS1000Z's are 100 MHz scopes? Yes, but beware..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 17, 2014, 04:49:08 pm
If the source in my electronic design has a max. frequency of 100 MHz, then where can I expect to get the higher frequencies from? Interference, noise, higher harmonics?

Everybody is discussing here that the low-pass filter in the analog front-end of the Rigol scope is no good, as it is not a higher order filter and does not have a steep slope behind the cut-off frequency.

But who cares if the signals in the electronic design are below or at max. 100 MHz?
I have a hard time to understand where the higher frequencies can come from, and if there are any, that their impact is noticeable.

Would like to have a better understanding on unexpected higher frequencies that can show up, their origin (interference, noise, harmonics) and their impact?

Aren't the higher harmonics far enough away, even if the analog filter isn't perfect?
Or is that where the problem originates, that the higher harmonics are relatively close to the original signal, and are not cut-out by the simple filter in analog front-end of the Rigol DS1054Z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 17, 2014, 04:59:27 pm
If the source in my electronic design has a max. frequency of 100 MHz, then where can I expect to get the higher frequencies from? Interference, noise, higher harmonics?

Everybody is discussing here that the low-pass filter in the analog front-end of the Rigol scope is no good, as it is not a higher order filter and does not have a steep slope behind the cut-off frequency.

But who cares if the signals in the electronic design are below or at max. 100 MHz?
I have a hard time to understand where the higher frequencies can come from, and if there are any, that their impact is noticeable.

Would like to have a better understanding on unexpected higher frequencies that can show up, their origin (interference, noise, harmonics) and their impact?

Aren't the higher harmonics far enough away, even if the analog filter isn't perfect?
Or is that where the problem originates, that the higher harmonics are relatively close to the original signal, and are not cut-out by the simple filter in analog front-end of the Rigol DS1054Z?
But how would you know / be sure that there are no higher (i.e. >= Fnyquist) in your signal? You certainly cannot check that with your scope.
Look at the output of my DG1032Z. Output at 24 Mhz and look at the spurious frequencies up to 100 MHz. Granted, in this case they are low enough not to be a problem, but I only know that because I have checked it with a spectrum analyzer. En more often than not You would have NO idea.
200 MHz into the 100 MHz DS100Z produced a 50 MHz signal of almost half the amplitude of the real 200 MHz due to aliasing. So, without being absolutely sure that no > Fnyqust signals are present you must allays distrust your scope.
Know what you are doing.
And a sharp roll-of filter (which the Rigol demonstrably does not have) is some safeguard that you are not seeing false-positives on your screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 17, 2014, 05:18:26 pm
I like the paper but I am surprised someone wrote one about this and I do not understand how it applies in this case.

As I've stated a number of times over a few posts, leakage occurs because of a mismatch between the fundamental frequency and the sampling frequency. It's not really an issue when dealing with the time domain because no one attempts to sample and reconstruct that close to Nyquist (e.g. the original 44.1 kHz CD sample rate is ~fs/2.2) - but it's a regular problem in the frequency domain due to the nature of the FFT process. I only posted the link to the paper to illustrate the work going on to find solutions to the problem of leakage in that respect.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 17, 2014, 05:27:11 pm
I want to come back to my question: if none of the signals in the electronic design, either the source, the intermediate signals in the signal path or the output signal has a frequency above the limit, then the higher frequencies can only come from interference, noise or higher harmonics.

Interference: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Noise: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Higher harmonics: Let's say we have a 100 MHz square wave. With a square wave at 100 MHz, the fundamental frequency is at 100 MHz, the 3rd harmonic is at 300 MHz, the 5th harmonic is at 500 Mhz. Doesn't the low-pass filter cut-out frequencies above 300 MHz? I believe it does!
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 17, 2014, 05:27:24 pm
Everybody is discussing here that the low-pass filter in the analog front-end of the Rigol scope is no good...

No one said that. The low-pass antialias filter is absolutely fine for the maximum 1GSa/s rate - which is what manufacturers generally design their filters for (they can't design them for every sample rate since you will ALWAYS get lower sample rates sometimes when you're using slower time bases).

We've only been attempting to point out that, while most 4-channel DSOs have at least two ADC blocks (one devoted to each pair of 2 channels), the Rigol only has the single ADC block for all 4 channels, which will cause the sample rate to drop to 1/4 maximum when 3 or 4 channels are used - so you have to be aware of the limits of the filter when using 3 or 4 channels (even at the maximum sample rate) - just as you should be aware of the same thing when using any amount of channels at slower time bases (i.e. slower sample rates).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 06:19:57 am
Higher harmonics: Let's say we have a 100 MHz square wave. With a square wave at 100 MHz, the fundamental frequency is at 100 MHz, the 3rd harmonic is at 300 MHz, the 5th harmonic is at 500 Mhz. Doesn't the low-pass filter cut-out frequencies above 300 MHz? I believe it does!

 :palm:

Yes, but it doesn't solve aliasing, which is what we're discussing.

As you approach the Nyquist frequency there's this thing called "aliasing" which you willfully seem to be ignoring.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 18, 2014, 07:03:42 am
As you approach the Nyquist frequency there's this thing called "aliasing" which you willfully seem to be ignoring.
I think the point he was trying to make is that the first harmonic of a 100MHz square wave (300MHz) would be a fair bit beyond the DS1054Z's front-end roll-off and not cause much aliasing.

But I agree that in the grand scheme of things, such a specific case is of rather limited use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 09:03:21 am
As you approach the Nyquist frequency there's this thing called "aliasing" which you willfully seem to be ignoring.
I think the point he was trying to make is that the first harmonic of a 100MHz square wave (300MHz) would be a fair bit beyond the DS1054Z's front-end roll-off and not cause much aliasing.

But I agree that in the grand scheme of things, such a specific case is of rather limited use.

I'm not sure what he's getting at any more. He seems to be trying to find some sort of mathematical imperfection in a 'scope when looking at 100MHz signals with 250MSa/s.

But ... of course it's imperfect. The Nyquist limit is a theoretical limit, not a practical one. It only applies under ideal conditions.

(And we're discussing a $40 'scope)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 18, 2014, 10:08:44 am
I want to come back to my question: if none of the signals in the electronic design, either the source, the intermediate signals in the signal path or the output signal has a frequency above the limit...

And again, as pa3bca already pointed out, you can't know that, in general.

Quote
Interference: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.
Noise: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

We're discussing physics, not religion.  Thus what you believe or do not believe will have no impact whatsoever on what will occur.

Quote
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).

And you'd be wrong.  Again.  (https://s.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoticons/emo11.gif)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 10:46:56 am
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).

And you'd be wrong.  Again.  (https://s.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoticons/emo11.gif)

Yep. A big part of "design" is ... (drum roll) ... "compromise"!

It's not a design failure at all to design a 'scope with the capabilities of the DS1000Z and sell it for $400 (in fact I'd call it a monstrous design success!)

If you want less compromise, ie. a 100Mhz 'scope with a very sharp cutoff filter for higher frequencies, then you have the option to pay a more money.

Or ... buy a 200MHz scope to look at your 100MHz signals - it's probably cheaper than paying for that filter.

Welcome to "reality". Please wipe your feet before entering.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 18, 2014, 11:18:16 am
According to all your "uncertainties" about not knowing for sure if there is a higher frequency or not, that suggestion about buying a 200 MHz scope should not hold either to be consistent with your "uncertainty". Because your "uncertainty" can not guaranty either that there is not a higher frequency than 200 MHz in the signal path, although you are measuring 100 MHz signals.

So I believe it is not me who should enter "reality", but you guys who should leave "uncertainty" :)
There are no things such as ghosts caused by noise, interference or higher harmonics that cause unexpected higher frequencies in the signal path that are higher and close enough to the frequency of interest which you are trying to measure.

And when Nyquist says that the sampling frequency should be two times, I believe that 2,5 is already an extra margin. But the "uncertain" guys here want to have a whopping margin of 10x.
No wonder that you need to reach out in your pocket for a scope which is way over dimensioned for the kind of electronic toys which you are designing :)


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 12:06:05 pm
According to all your "uncertainties" about not knowing for sure if there is a higher frequency or not, that suggestion about buying a 200 MHz scope should not hold either to be consistent with your "uncertainty". Because your "uncertainty" can not guaranty either that there is not a higher frequency than 200 MHz in the signal path either, although you are measuring 100 MHz signals.

That's true, but:
a) I wasn't promising "certainty" with the 200MHz scope.
b) You now have 4 samples per wave and the cutoff filter is twice as sharp as before (relatively speaking). You're four times better off than you were with the 100Mhz scope.

If you want even less uncertainty than that (nb. I said "less uncertainty", not "certainty"), buy a 500MHz scope ... or whatever your budget allows.

This is what "reality" is.

Edit:

But the "uncertain" guys here want to have a whopping margin of 10x.

The general consensus is that 10x is an acceptable level of uncertainty, given the budgets and constraints people tend to work in.

The people working at the Large Hadron Collider (for example) probably don't think that's enough. They'll use even more.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2014, 12:09:18 pm
And when Nyquist says that the sampling frequency should be two times, I believe that 2,5 is already an extra margin. But the "uncertain" guys here want to have a whopping margin of 10x.
No wonder that you need to reach out in your pocket for a scope which is way over dimensioned for the kind of electronic toys which you are designing :)
You seem to be unwilling (or unable) to grasp the very basics of sampling - even though they have been laid out here time and time again. The Nyquist theorem is just that: a mathematical theorem. It is not real world usage - such as trying to get an accurate image of a waveform you're trying to look at. It doesn't take much imagination to see what kind of image a waveform sampled at fs/2 is going to deliver with linear interpolation:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113766)

Yet even though the concept of 10x oversampling (which, BTW, was developed by DSO manufacturers) has been explained here more than once, you can't seem to fathom it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 18, 2014, 12:23:50 pm
Is 10x margin enough for sure, or only expected to be enough? Does that 10x margin still depend on having an acceptable higher order low-pass filter in the analog front-end of the scope?

Let's say I want to go for the 10x margin, and select the Rigol MSO2000 series instead.

Rigol DS2000 series:

If I go for the Rigol MSO2072A scope and patch it to a Rigol MSO2102A.
This scope has only 2 channels. So then I will have 1 GS/s per channel.
If I only expect to have 100 MHz signals in my application I would meet the 10x margin, and should not expect any problems. Is that correct?

So although the Rigol DS2000 series goes up to Rigol DS2302A, in reality the best configuration which can be used and meets 10x margin when using 2 channels at the same time, is the Rigol DS2101A. Is that correct?

If I use only 1 channel on the Rigol DS2000 series, the Rigol DS2202A makes sense, as I can then measure up to 200 MHz signal, with sample rate of 2MS/s (10x margin).

If I use 2 channels on the Rigol DS2000 series, only the Rigol DS2102A makes sense, as I can then measure up to 100 MHz signal (on both channels), with sample rate of 1MS/s (10x margin).

The Rigol DS2302A scope does not make sense, as even if I only use 1 channel, I can at max measure 200 MHZ signal, to meet the 10x margin.

Rigol DS1000Z series:

The Rigol DS1054Z can be patched to a Rigol DS1104Z scope.

The Rigol DS1104Z scope can act as a reliable 100 MHz scope when you only use 1 channel (to meet 10x margin - 1 GS/s).

The Rigol DS1104Z scope only acts as a reliable 50 MHz scope when you use 2 channels at the same time (to meet 10x margin - 500 MS/s).

The Rigol DS1104Z scope only acts as a reliable 25MHz scope when you use all 4 channels at the same time (to meet 25x margin - 250 MS/s).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: a1976888 on October 18, 2014, 12:38:03 pm
Hi,
Probably I'm OT but I wonder if it would be possible to group buy this oscilliscope to have a bigger discount for large quantities.
I think a lot of people here would like to buy one of these...
Any ideas?
Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 12:45:45 pm
Hi,
Probably I'm OT but I wonder if it would be possible to group buy this oscilliscope to have a bigger discount for large quantities.
I think a lot of people here would like to buy one of these...
Any ideas?
Thanks!

Sure, why don't you do it...?

Start by making some phone calls to Rigol to find out what you need to do to become a dealer, how many units you have to commit to, over what timespan, etc., to get the dealer pricing.

When you have that info, come back and we'll talk.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 12:47:26 pm
Is 10x margin enough for sure

 :palm:

No.

(I didn't bother reading the rest of your post because it's obvious what your problem is from the first six words).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2014, 12:56:00 pm
Is 10x margin enough for sure, or only expected to be enough? Does that 10x margin still depend on having an acceptable higher order low-pass filter in the analog front-end of the scope?

The 10x oversampling applies to linear interpolation - not sin(x)/x. If the DSO (or operator) is confident that no aliases are present (i.e. the sample rate is high enough to be beyond the transition band of the antialias filter - and if you don't know what transition band means, Google it) - the DSO should use sin(x)/x, and then 2.5 - 4x oversampling can be enough. If not, linear interpolation is/should be used. The Rigol UltraVision DSOs (as well as the Agilent X-series and many other DSOs) automatically turn on linear interpolation when the sample rate has dropped enough that it's obvious that aliasing could be present.

Really - the best thing is just to BUY A DSO and start playing around with it. You'll soon see with your own eyes why 10x oversampling is beneficial when using linear interpolation.

Quote
So although the Rigol DS2000 series goes up to Rigol DS2302A, in reality the best configuration which can be used and meets 10x margin when using 2 channels at the same time, is the Rigol DS2101A. Is that correct?

No, it depends on the characteristics of the antialias filter. From measurements that have been posted by owners, it appears that the DS2000A series attenuates frequencies above 500MHz (i.e. Nyquist for 2 channels @ 1GSa/s) enough for faithful sin(x)/x reconstruction up to the 200MHz version. The 300MHz version is a different story - and that's why I don't have that bandwidth enabled on my DS2000.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 18, 2014, 01:05:57 pm
You seem to be unwilling (or unable) to grasp the very basics of sampling - even though they have been laid out here time and time again. The Nyquist theorem is just that: a mathematical theorem. It is not real world usage - such as trying to get an accurate image of a waveform you're trying to look at. It doesn't take much imagination to see what kind of image a waveform sampled at fs/2 is going to deliver with linear interpolation:
I think its you who are unable to grasp the basics of sampling. Your simplistic join the dots scheme massively expands the bandwidth of the signal. If you put those triangles through a bandpass filter, so remove all the out of band crud you just created, you'll get back to something similar to the original signal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2014, 01:15:44 pm
Your simplistic join the dots scheme...

Mine? It's just a stock Nyquist image lifted from the internet showing a sine wave sampled at 2f.

Quote
If you put those triangles through a bandpass filter, so remove all the out of band crud you just created, you'll get back to something similar to the original signal.

Oh please.. do go on! School me on how DSOs are faithfully reproducing waveforms right up to the Nyquist frequency.  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 01:22:51 pm
...2.5 - 4x oversampling can be enough.

This only applies to signal reconstruction (ie. display), not to the actual sampling process.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2014, 01:34:55 pm
...2.5 - 4x oversampling can be enough.

This only applies to signal reconstruction (ie. display), not to the actual sampling process.

No, it applies to the sampling rate. It's always a trade-off between the anti-alias filter and the sampling rate. From previously linked Agilent document:

"Figure 8 clearly shows that the sin(x)/x reconstruction filter perfectly reconstructs the waveform from the samples taken at a rate 2.5 times faster than the highest frequency content of the waveform."

To prevent aliasing, two fundamental items can be addressed in a digitizing system:
1) An anti-alias filter can be designed to reject all high-frequency content above fN.
2) The sample rate can be increased to an arbitrarily high frequency such that fN is above the highest significant frequency component of the signal being digitized."

In some systems, one might imagine a case where increased sample rate is inexpensive, compared to a higher-order anti-alias filter. In this case, it may be more practical to increase the sample rate to compensate for the slow roll-off of the anti-alias filter, instead of designing a more complex filter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 18, 2014, 01:51:28 pm
Your simplistic join the dots scheme...

Mine? It's just a stock Nyquist image lifted from the internet showing a sine wave sampled at 2f.
There are plenty of idiotic pictures on the web. You chose to quote this one to illustrate something. Maybe you didn't adequately explain what that something was.

Quote
If you put those triangles through a bandpass filter, so remove all the out of band crud you just created, you'll get back to something similar to the original signal.

Oh please.. do go on! School me on how DSOs are faithfully reproducing waveforms right up to the Nyquist frequency.  :-DD
They don't faithfully display right up to Shannon, for reasons many people have explained. However the practical limitations of not being able to impose a brick wall filter without nasty phase effects don't make linear interpolation, with its consequent massive increase in bandwidth, any more meaningful. After digitising a signal you don't get back to the original signal just  by feeding it through a DAC. You have to filter back to the Shannon bandwidth. If your DAC is a ZOH type, you also need to compensate for its funky frequency response. If you are to display the digitised signal in any meaningful form, you need to do the same kind of filtering digitally.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2014, 01:59:12 pm
There are plenty of idiotic pictures on the web. You chose to quote this one to illustrate something. Maybe you didn't adequately explain what that something was.

Maybe you didn't adequately follow the conversation that has been taking place over several pages of this thread.

Quote
They don't faithfully display right up to Shannon, for reasons many people have explained.

Yes, me being one those people that have been attempting to explain it to the person I was responding to.

Quote
However the practical limitations of not being able to impose a brick wall filter without nasty phase effects don't make linear interpolation, with its consequent massive increase in bandwidth, any more meaningful.

Wow, I really don't have the energy to go through this again. Congratulations, you win!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 18, 2014, 02:38:05 pm

Wow, I really don't have the energy to go through this again. Congratulations, you win!
Does this mean we stop talking about it, and start using our scope ?  :)
Oh and Pascal, when do you buy an Rigol scope ?????
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 02:51:33 pm
Wow, I really don't have the energy to go through this again. Congratulations, you win!
Does this mean we stop talking about it, and start using our scope ?  :)

Yes. I say we leave him in his little world of doubt. The only hope is that he buys a 'scope and sees it for himself.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2014, 11:22:42 pm
Does this mean we stop talking about it, and start using our scope ?  :)

Yes.... and pray we don't have another Al Pacino-Godfather 3-"Just when I thought..." moment   ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xnaron on October 18, 2014, 11:24:26 pm
Apologies if this has been pointed out before...

The resistor jumper configuration for "Hardware Version" is different on DS1054Z compared to DS1104Z.

I was watching Dave's DS1054Z teardown and I took note of the part where he mentioned the resistor configuration blocks.  I started thinking about whether the resistor jumpers would be the same on the DS1104Z.  I searched youtube and found a DS1104Z teardown video.  I watched the video and found a spot where the resistor jumpers were shown.  I took a screenshot of them.  I also took a screenshot of the jumpers from Dave's Flickr teardown.  I am including them in this post.  If you examine the photos you can see there is one resistor jumper in a different place.  Anyone have any info on how these resistor jumpers effect functionality?

This is the DS1104Z teardown video I took the screenshot from.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMPPuAOoD8c)

Here is the link to Daves teardown image on Flickr I cropped my image from https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/15354535170/in/set-72157646442125864/lightbox/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/15354535170/in/set-72157646442125864/lightbox/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tom66 on October 18, 2014, 11:39:55 pm
This argument over sampling rates and bandwidth is really quite silly.

What Rigol have done is given people a solid and low cost 4 channel digital scope with good sampling rate and intensity graded display. This thing absolutely destroys the competition in features and performance. What other scope offers 24Mpt in the same price range? The only other one I can think of is the DS2000... Even Tek's high end scopes only offer 10Mpt... Agilent's 2000X is 4Mpt/4ch...
 
I've owned a DS1074Z for about 3 months now. How many times have I used the full bandwidth on all four channels? Never. I can't even think of an application where I would do so.

The primary applications for 4 channels are:
 - SPI+result analysis (DAC etc)
 - I2C+result analysis (DAC etc)
 - 3ph motor drives (max 1MHz)

.... that is, when you can only afford a $400 scope... Of course you can analyse DDR buses but the DS1xxxZ probably isn't for you then....

You volt-nuts may say the scope only has real 25MHz bandwidth on four channels. If that really bothers you, don't buy it. Or turn on the 20MHz filter. (It'd be really nice if Rigol let users enable the 50 and 70MHz filters too, for the 100MHz scopes. I can hope.)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 19, 2014, 12:02:57 am
This argument over sampling rates and bandwidth is really quite silly....

You volt-nuts may say the scope only has real 25MHz bandwidth on four channels. If that really bothers you, don't buy it. Or turn on the 20MHz filter. (It'd be really nice if Rigol let users enable the 50 and 70MHz filters too, for the 100MHz scopes. I can hope.)

I'm not sure it's actually been an argument (although perhaps there's been 1 or 2 people fighting against the idea). Personally, I talked about it just so prospective owners would understand the limitations - but I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think the DSO is a great bargain - and I'd be pleased as punch if my DS2000 grew a couple of extra channels, even if they just ran at 1/4 the maximum sample rate - because as you say, there are plenty of applications where that works just fine.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 19, 2014, 12:54:53 am
Apologies if this has been pointed out before...

The resistor jumper configuration for "Hardware Version" is different on DS1054Z compared to DS1104Z.
That number does not necessarily mean anything: many months have gone by since the DS1104Z launched so it is highly probable that Rigol has tweaked the PCB or BoM since then and DS1104Z manufactured more recently might be revision 01 as well.

You would need to find someone who cracked open a post-DS1054Z DS1104Z to confirm that the 01 revision is specific to the DS1054Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 19, 2014, 04:46:09 am
Oh and Pascal, when do you buy an Rigol scope ?????

Now there's an interesting question!  Let's look back at the last year...

January 01, 2014, 02:40:30 PM »
I am going to buy a digital oscilloscope, but am doubting between the DS1074Z (4 channels) or the DS2072 (2 channels).

January 01, 2014, 05:38:35 PM »
I am interested in DS2072A but want to wait until the hack is confirmed with new FW and all options enabled, including 300MHz and CAN decoding.

January 02, 2014, 04:20:22 PM »
is the DS2072A hackable to 300 MHz with all options or not?
How long does it typically take to come up with a new hack? =) I need to buy my scope latest next week :)

January 21, 2014, 09:49:04 AM »
Are there any rumours or confirmations about upcoming DS2000 series with built-in LA?
Will the LA have 8 channels or 16 channels? When is it expected? Details on launch date and model numbers? Pictures?

~~ Purchase decisions got deferred, more questions were asked, the LA option awaited.  Then he focused on the MSO1074z (after flirting for a bit with the Siglent SDS2000).

June 30, 2014, 03:56:18 AM »
I am considering to buy a new scope now, and am thinking about MSO1074Z, as it seems to have everything I need.  4 Channels is very handy.

July 11, 2014, 07:57:32 AM »
Anybody with more feedback about the MSO2072A or the MSO1074Z?
If you are doing digital design 2 analog channels are more than enough given that you have 16 digital channels.
So that makes me conclude to go for the MSO2072A. Now just need more feedback on it

August 04, 2014, 09:21:00 AM »
Myself am going to order very soon an MSO1074Z, or an MSO2072A. Still doubting about which one is the best, but most likely it will be the MSO1074Z, as 100 MHz (after possible upgrade) would be enough for my current applications.  But I really want confirmation that feature wise both scopes are as good.

August 07, 2014, 12:33:46 PM »
From that perspective I think I have finally made up my mind. It is simply going to be a MSO2072A :)

~~ Finally!   :phew:  But not so fast...

August 09, 2014, 04:49:16 PM »
It actually seems that intensity grading is better on 1074Z series than on 2000A series.
Also the screen contrast is better on the cheaper 1074Z series.
Now I am really confused. Although the screen is smaller on the 1074Z series, the screen quality is better than the 2000A series.
Honestly I am clueless again, and still can not decide then on MSO1074Z or MSO2072A, after seeing this video =)

~~ Marmad finally inquired, 2 months ago:  "seriously, man, you've been posting these same questions for over 7 months now... perhaps it's time to bite the bullet and buy a DSO?"

August 13, 2014, 05:43:40 AM »
Yes, I agree. I will buy the scope in September =)   [MSO2000, after debating viewing angles vs. 1000z]

~~ But hold on a minute...

September 10, 2014, 05:21:47 AM »
Considering to buy MSO1074Z or MSO2072A.  Most likely I will go for MSO2072A.

October 09, 2014, 10:51:54 AM »
I haven't bought the scope yet, as I was waiting on some videos for the LA functionality in the MSO series.  But scope will be ordered soon (other priorities now).

~~

My personal suspicion is he won't ever order any DSO.  Because: a) he wants it to be perfect, and the "best" in every possible way, b) he wants it to be trivially easy to hack, c) he wants guarantees that it will have no limitations that he might some day run into, and the major #1 reason...  (drum roll please)

d) he really has no need for a DSO!   >:D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on October 19, 2014, 06:41:27 am
Oh and Pascal, when do you buy an Rigol scope ?????

Now there's an interesting question!  Let's look back at the last year...

January 01, 2014, 02:40:30 PM »
I am going to buy a digital oscilloscope, but am doubting between the DS1074Z (4 channels) or the DS2072 (2 channels).

January 01, 2014, 05:38:35 PM »
I am interested in DS2072A but want to wait until the hack is confirmed with new FW and all options enabled, including 300MHz and CAN decoding.

January 02, 2014, 04:20:22 PM »
is the DS2072A hackable to 300 MHz with all options or not?
How long does it typically take to come up with a new hack? =) I need to buy my scope latest next week :)

January 21, 2014, 09:49:04 AM »
Are there any rumours or confirmations about upcoming DS2000 series with built-in LA?
Will the LA have 8 channels or 16 channels? When is it expected? Details on launch date and model numbers? Pictures?

~~ Purchase decisions got deferred, more questions were asked, the LA option awaited.  Then he focused on the MSO1074z (after flirting for a bit with the Siglent SDS2000).

June 30, 2014, 03:56:18 AM »
I am considering to buy a new scope now, and am thinking about MSO1074Z, as it seems to have everything I need.  4 Channels is very handy.

July 11, 2014, 07:57:32 AM »
Anybody with more feedback about the MSO2072A or the MSO1074Z?
If you are doing digital design 2 analog channels are more than enough given that you have 16 digital channels.
So that makes me conclude to go for the MSO2072A. Now just need more feedback on it

August 04, 2014, 09:21:00 AM »
Myself am going to order very soon an MSO1074Z, or an MSO2072A. Still doubting about which one is the best, but most likely it will be the MSO1074Z, as 100 MHz (after possible upgrade) would be enough for my current applications.  But I really want confirmation that feature wise both scopes are as good.

August 07, 2014, 12:33:46 PM »
From that perspective I think I have finally made up my mind. It is simply going to be a MSO2072A :)

~~ Finally!   :phew:  But not so fast...

August 09, 2014, 04:49:16 PM »
It actually seems that intensity grading is better on 1074Z series than on 2000A series.
Also the screen contrast is better on the cheaper 1074Z series.
Now I am really confused. Although the screen is smaller on the 1074Z series, the screen quality is better than the 2000A series.
Honestly I am clueless again, and still can not decide then on MSO1074Z or MSO2072A, after seeing this video =)

~~ Marmad finally inquired, 2 months ago:  "seriously, man, you've been posting these same questions for over 7 months now... perhaps it's time to bite the bullet and buy a DSO?"

August 13, 2014, 05:43:40 AM »
Yes, I agree. I will buy the scope in September =)   [MSO2000, after debating viewing angles vs. 1000z]

~~ But hold on a minute...

September 10, 2014, 05:21:47 AM »
Considering to buy MSO1074Z or MSO2072A.  Most likely I will go for MSO2072A.

October 09, 2014, 10:51:54 AM »
I haven't bought the scope yet, as I was waiting on some videos for the LA functionality in the MSO series.  But scope will be ordered soon (other priorities now).

~~

My personal suspicion is he won't ever order any DSO.  Because: a) he wants it to be perfect, and the "best" in every possible way, b) he wants it to be trivially easy to hack, c) he wants guarantees that it will have no limitations that he might some day run into, and the major #1 reason...  (drum roll please)

d) he really has no need for a DSO!   >:D
For sure he keeps us busy  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 19, 2014, 12:07:06 pm
Good summary! Yes, keeps everybody busy!
I will come with the big announcement at the right time :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 19, 2014, 12:46:11 pm
Good summary! Yes, keeps everybody busy!
I will come with the big announcement at the right time :)
Pascal,

Er is alleen maar tijd, geen "goede" tijd. Maak de beslissing en word blij :)

--Bert
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 19, 2014, 01:54:57 pm
Now I am confused.  Are you referring to the analog antialiasing filter before the digitizer or the reconstruction filter after the digitizer?  If aliasing occurs then the later cannot do anything about it.

Both are low-pass filters. Leakage is a phenomenon that is not associated with aliasing (since it happens below Nyquist) and is not preventable by antialiasing or reconstruction filters.

Yes, and we established that in the screenshots I made there were no frequency components above Nyquist, so aliasing was not occurring.

This is the same screenshot of the 120 MHz signal where I counted wrong and you made the same counting mistake:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg532229/#msg532229 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg532229/#msg532229)

The signal is a 120 MHz sine wave.  The image above the 125 MHz Nyquist frequency is at 130 MHz.  After reconstruction with a low pass filter, any remaining part of the 130 MHz image should result in constructive and destructive interference with a beat frequency of 10 MHz which is what the blue line I have added shows.

This post covers the same problem and mentions the Agilent MSO6034 manual which includes a statement about their reconstruction filter having a bandwidth of half the Nyquist frequency:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin%28x%29x-interpolation/msg2545/#msg2545 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin%28x%29x-interpolation/msg2545/#msg2545)

Quote
note: what results is not really an AM signal, but a DSB signal (or AM with suppressed carrier, the sine does not ride the wave) -equivalent to the summation of the original "real" 120 MHz and the leaked "mirror" at 130 MHz. In the FFT's a few pages ago and attached here you can see that the amplitude of the mirror grows as the sampled frequency approaches Fnyquist. The result is shown as a double-sideband signal, not really an AM signal as there is no power in the central frequency of 125 MHz.

And the higher sideband grows stronger as Nyquist is approached because the reconstruction filter has lower attenuation.  The waveform shown in the image does not completely cancel because the 130 MHz image is already smaller than the 120 MHz signal.  With an input of 124.995 MHz, the peak to trough frequency would be 10 kHz and cancellation would be almost complete.

Quote
All this is after the digitizer and no aliasing occurring.
So as Marmad noticed this leakage is no issue till say Fsample/2.5 (my 100 MHz). There the leakage is so small is does not show any more.

The leakage is still there.  If you look really carefully at the lower frequency examples, you can see the amplitude still varying but it happens at a higher frequency because the signal and image are further apart.

Quote
As I understand it (now) up until Fnyquist you can reconstruct the frequency, but the amplitude information gets lost above Fsample/2.5. Just too few samples, and these samples "shift" along the wave resulting in the AM like waveform
Looking at the samples near Fnyquist themselves I am not even sure that a reliable reconstruction of the amplitude is even possible, and that it has nothing to do with errors in the reconstruction algorithms used by Rigol? At least that is what the documentation Marmad supplied is suggesting.
Interesting learning experience. This goes to show that one should be really really careful when interpreting displayed waveforms even long before FNyquist.  So the DS1000Z's are 100 MHz scopes? Yes, but beware..

If the filter was long enough, then the 130 MHz image would have been removed.  The filter however is shorter than this because of both performance reasons and because the filter length subtracts from the usable record length at the ends where a full set of samples is not available to calculate it.

This post was late not because I had given up but because the EEVBlog forum was returning database errors for me most of yesterday. :)  I am not giving up because I want to understand exactly what is going on here.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 19, 2014, 03:17:57 pm
This post covers the same problem and mentions the Agilent MSO6034 manual which includes a statement about their reconstruction filter having a bandwidth of half the Nyquist frequency:

No, this doesn't cover the same problem; this is you attempting to connect this with a problem the DS1000E had - just as you tried to do before earlier in this thread. Rf-loop and jahonen were discussing the problem of the sin(x)/x interpolation on the DS1000E not matching the actual sample points. That is not the issue at all here - the interpolation matches the sample points just fine (see images).

Quote
The leakage is still there.  If you look really carefully at the lower frequency examples, you can see the amplitude still varying but it happens at a higher frequency because the signal and image are further apart.

Huh? No it doesn't. I just examined his 100MHz image in Photoshop and the amplitude only varies +/- 1 pixel - certainly within the DSO's margin of error, especially since the display memory is 2x scaled from the intensity buffer .

Quote
If the filter was long enough, then the 130 MHz image would have been removed.  The filter however is shorter than this because of both performance reasons and because the filter length subtracts from the usable record length at the ends where a full set of samples is not available to calculate it.

By long enough, do you mean infinitely or impossibly longer? If not, please produce a SINGLE real-world example of a DSO sampling a frequency between fs/2.1 and fs/2.05 and reconstructing the waveform correctly. I would love to see it.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 19, 2014, 06:13:02 pm
This post covers the same problem and mentions the Agilent MSO6034 manual which includes a statement about their reconstruction filter having a bandwidth of half the Nyquist frequency:

No, this doesn't cover the same problem; this is you attempting to connect this with a problem the DS1000E had - just as you tried to do before earlier in this thread. Rf-loop and jahonen were discussing the problem of the sin(x)/x interpolation on the DS1000E not matching the actual sample points. That is not the issue at all here - the interpolation matches the sample points just fine (see images).

Not having the sin(x)/x reconstruction match the sample points is a different problem.  It just means that the filter did not use enough terms or used windowing or it was not a sin(x)/x filter which amounts to the same thing.  Rigol might have used a more aggressive filter to prevent the issue being discussed and raise the real time bandwidth in the way Agilent used the term even though it would mean that the actual sample points would not be on the reconstructed waveform.

Quote
Quote
The leakage is still there.  If you look really carefully at the lower frequency examples, you can see the amplitude still varying but it happens at a higher frequency because the signal and image are further apart.

Huh? No it doesn't. I just examined his 100MHz image in Photoshop and the amplitude only varies +/- 1 pixel - certainly within the DSO's margin of error, especially since the display memory is 2x scaled from the intensity buffer .

It looks like a difference to me because it repeats over the entire displayed waveform and I was specifically looking for it.  At some point in the past, I would have missed or dismissed it.

The amount of leakage is continuous with the input frequency.  At some frequency it will be low enough not to be seen visually but it will still be present which an FFT will show.  At a lower frequency yet it will become indistinguishable from noise.  Pick the right higher frequency and it will be +/- 2 pixels.  Pick a higher one yet and it will be +/- 3 pixels. 

Quote
Quote
If the filter was long enough, then the 130 MHz image would have been removed.  The filter however is shorter than this because of both performance reasons and because the filter length subtracts from the usable record length at the ends where a full set of samples is not available to calculate it.

By long enough, do you mean infinitely or impossibly longer? If not, please produce a SINGLE real-world example of a DSO sampling a frequency between fs/2.1 and fs/2.05 and reconstructing the waveform correctly. I would love to see it.  :)

I mean significantly longer then the filter Rigol is using now and gave the reasons why it is not longer.  I do not expect the Rigol to have perfect sin(x)/x reconstruction up to Nyquist.  I have yet to see a DSO which does.  It might be nice though to get an idea of the actual real time bandwidth available before distortion from the image becomes significant.  It looks like they did barely meet their 100 MHz specification at a sample rate of 250 MS/s.

I cannot give an example of a DSO doing this for the reasons discussed above but textbooks give graphic examples of ideal sin(x)/x reconstruction all the time when they discuss representing all input frequencies up to but not including the Nyquist frequency.  How else could a sampled data stream represent all frequencies up to but not included the Nyquist frequency accurately otherwise?

DSOs with longer and sharper reconstruction filters will display more accurate results up to their Nyquist frequency.  If a sin(x)/x filter is used, then the reconstructed waveform will also pass through the actual sample points which is a desirable feature.

The FFT of the 120 MHz input that pa3bca posted is magnified so any low frequency aliasing is left out but look carefully at the 120 MHz and 130 MHz signals.  The later one is about one minor division less or 4 dB.  If that FFT is of the reconstructed signal (otherwise how could it display the 130 MHz sine wave?), then that represents the attenuation difference of Rigol's reconstruction filter over that 10 MHz span.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 19, 2014, 06:40:09 pm
At a lower frequency yet it will become indistinguishable from noise.  Pick the right higher frequency and it will be +/- 2 pixels.  Pick a higher one yet and it will be +/- 3 pixels.

Of course. But I think it's indistinguishable from noise in the 100MHz image - and I don't think a low-cost DSO has to do any better than fs/2.5 using sin(x)/x.

Quote
I cannot give an example of a DSO doing this for the reasons discussed above but textbooks give graphic examples of ideal sin(x)/x reconstruction all the time when they discuss representing all input frequencies up to but not including the Nyquist frequency.  How else could a sampled data stream represent all frequencies up to but not included the Nyquist frequency accurately otherwise?

Yes, textbooks - but who does this in reality? Who is capturing and reproducing frequencies right up to Nyquist? Everybody oversamples. And every paper on sin(x)/x interpolation on DSOs that I've read - although they might mention that it's mathematically possible to represent all frequencies up to Nyquist - ALWAYS mention fs/2.5, fs/3 or fs/4 as the minimum that should be used.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 19, 2014, 07:46:16 pm
This is the same screenshot of the 120 MHz signal where I counted wrong and you made the same counting mistake:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg532229/#msg532229 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg532229/#msg532229)

The signal is a 120 MHz sine wave.  The image above the 125 MHz Nyquist frequency is at 130 MHz.  After reconstruction with a low pass filter, any remaining part of the 130 MHz image should result in constructive and destructive interference with a beat frequency of 10 MHz which is what the blue line I have added shows.
Oops. My bad. The 10 MHz is indeed your blue line riding the wavecrests, not my (5 MHz) red line. Was not paying attention (and counting) as I was trying to reconcile the two signals (120 and 130) into a DSB waveform.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 19, 2014, 07:56:45 pm
The amount of leakage is continuous with the input frequency.  At some frequency it will be low enough not to be seen visually but it will still be present which an FFT will show.  At a lower frequency yet it will become indistinguishable from noise.  Pick the right higher frequency and it will be +/- 2 pixels.  Pick a higher one yet and it will be +/- 3 pixels. 
Yes, the closer the frequency gets to Fnyquist the larger the mirror becomes. (as leakage increases)
And it looks like 100 MHz (at 250 MSa/s) is just at the limit, any higher and it becomes visible. This is in accordance with the Fs/2.5 that Marmad has mentioned as a an absolute maximum that will work in practice.

Quote
If the filter was long enough, then the 130 MHz image would have been removed.  The filter however is shorter than this because of both performance reasons and because the filter length subtracts from the usable record length at the ends where a full set of samples is not available to calculate it.
Hm I think I can see how with (much) longer sampling you might get rid of the mirror (leaked) frequency, as the sampling points "move" over the fundamental. but, but... wouldn't that be ETS?? sounds like cheating?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 19, 2014, 08:08:11 pm
I want to come back to my question: if none of the signals in the electronic design, either the source, the intermediate signals in the signal path or the output signal has a frequency above the limit, then the higher frequencies can only come from interference, noise or higher harmonics.

Interference: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Noise: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Higher harmonics: Let's say we have a 100 MHz square wave. With a square wave at 100 MHz, the fundamental frequency is at 100 MHz, the 3rd harmonic is at 300 MHz, the 5th harmonic is at 500 Mhz. Doesn't the low-pass filter cut-out frequencies above 300 MHz? I believe it does!
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).
You really don't have a clue, do you? Or are you deliberately trolling this forum?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 19, 2014, 09:04:55 pm
I want to come back to my question: if none of the signals in the electronic design, either the source, the intermediate signals in the signal path or the output signal has a frequency above the limit, then the higher frequencies can only come from interference, noise or higher harmonics.

Interference: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Noise: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Higher harmonics: Let's say we have a 100 MHz square wave. With a square wave at 100 MHz, the fundamental frequency is at 100 MHz, the 3rd harmonic is at 300 MHz, the 5th harmonic is at 500 Mhz. Doesn't the low-pass filter cut-out frequencies above 300 MHz? I believe it does!
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).
You really don't have a clue, do you? Or are you deliberately trolling this forum?

And let's put it to the test.
Your perfect square wave (where can you buy these btw?) has a third harmonic with 1/3 of the amplitude of the fundamental.
So.
First a measurement with 0dBm out of the generator to the scope (250 MSa/s). 100 MHz 0 dBm png attachment.
Then a 300 MHz 0 dBm to the scope (to check the attenuation at 300 MHz):       300 MHz 0 dBm png attachment.
You see that:
- due to aliasing the scope "sees" a 50 MHz signal
- this signal is down only 20 log (237/120) = 5.9 dB
The 3rd harmonic of a perfect square is 1/3 of the amplitude of the fundamental so the actual amplitude that the scope will show is 120/3 = 40 mV.
So the scope will show a waveform consisting of a 237 mV 100 MHz signal + a 40 mV 50 MHz signal.

To show you how that looks I added 237 mV 10 MHz and a 40 mV 5 MHz signal together (I can only generate up to 30 MHz with my siggen), and look what the waveform is:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=113894)
There is your perfect square wave @ 100 MHz....
Higher harmonics will also show, but probably not significant:
- the 5th harmonic is at 500 MHz.. being 2xFs the amplitude here is zero (checked it).
- 7th harmonic is way down, not relevant any more.


This scope is really marvelous, especially at this price point. No competition. But you must understand aliasing and leakage. Know what you're doing.
Oh, and if you are not sure about aliasing, just use only one channel. With 1 GSa/s aliasing is probably not a problem. And switching between 1 GSa/s en 250 MSa/s will give you an indication if aliasing is an issue. If the waveform changes drastically, it is! (at 250 MSa/s).




Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on October 19, 2014, 11:38:05 pm
The resistor jumper configuration for "Hardware Version" is different on DS1054Z compared to DS1104Z.

Well spotted. The one of the right is certainly set to 1 instead of 0.
I'd try it on my mine, but it's only a loaner, so I don't think it's appropriate to do so.
Can anyone with a 1054Z change the jumper and see what happens?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on October 19, 2014, 11:41:59 pm
That number does not necessarily mean anything: many months have gone by since the DS1104Z launched so it is highly probable that Rigol has tweaked the PCB or BoM since then and DS1104Z manufactured more recently might be revision 01 as well.

Yes, you could be right, this could just be the revision of the board, which is shown in the firmware. So they might be using the jumpers to hard set this version. Jumpers cost practically nothing to install after all. My board is Rev 1.01
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 20, 2014, 06:14:59 am
Good summary! Yes, keeps everybody busy!
I will come with the big announcement at the right time :)


And when you do, I expect you'll really start asking questions in earnest!  ;)  And keep us even busier.

One good outcome of your deferring a decision was the arrival of the MSO2000 (not available when you started your quest for the Holy Grail), which pretty nicely balances out the 2-channel loss from the 1000Z to the 2000.  For someone who (may) want to do embedded systems work at some point, it's a very nice combination.

And if you wait long enough, Siglent may improve the firmware implementation on the SDS2000 to the point where you could get 4 analog channels AND 8 digital channels... for a price in the same ballpark as the MSO2000.  Though the hackability of the Rigols does give them a decided advantage.

EDIT:  besides, when I prepared that retrospective, I thought we needed a break from the Hess/Marmad bout, that was in the 14th round.   :box:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2014, 12:42:00 am
Is the DS1000U series something Rigol only sell in China? I don't see reference to these models on other country's web sites.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on October 21, 2014, 01:41:29 am
Good summary! Yes, keeps everybody busy!
I will come with the big announcement at the right time :)


And when you do, I expect you'll really start asking questions in earnest!  ;)  And keep us even busier.

One good outcome of your deferring a decision was the arrival of the MSO2000 (not available when you started your quest for the Holy Grail), which pretty nicely balances out the 2-channel loss from the 1000Z to the 2000.  For someone who (may) want to do embedded systems work at some point, it's a very nice combination.

And if you wait long enough, Siglent may improve the firmware implementation on the SDS2000 to the point where you could get 4 analog channels AND 8 digital channels... for a price in the same ballpark as the MSO2000.  Though the hackability of the Rigols does give them a decided advantage.

EDIT:  besides, when I prepared that retrospective, I thought we needed a break from the Hess/Marmad bout, that was in the 14th round.   :box:
LOL
Sorry I have no real update re Siglent SDS2000 expected firmware version apart from it is due this month, then the bell will ring for the next bout.  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 21, 2014, 01:58:46 am
Is the DS1000U series something Rigol only sell in China? I don't see reference to these models on other country's web sites.
Like the DG1022U variant of Rigol's DG1022 function generator it seems to be primarily intended for domestic markets, although it (there appears to be only one model, the DS1072U) is available in Western countries from various Chinese shippers, such as this one (http://www.rigoloscilloscope.co.uk/wholesale/RIGOL-DS1072U-70Mhz-Oscilloscope-FFT-500MSa-s-3-yrs-warranty-air-shipping-track-656.html), and there is an English manual (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fus.rigol.com%2Fdownload%2FOversea%2FDS%2FUser_guide%2FDS1000U_UserGuide_EN.pdf&ei=_btFVNi1EoHSaJD7gIAP&usg=AFQjCNHgAKPL6MzBuo4D6bDUvHUPrXwkfg&bvm=bv.77880786,d.ZWU) on Rigol's US website.

It's hard to imagine why anyone would want one, though - it only has half the sample rate and half the memory of the now rather obsolete DS1000E series scopes, and costs about the same.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dentaku on October 21, 2014, 02:37:29 am
OK, I'm going to ask a dumb question...
Is a DS1054Z exactly the same as a DS1074Z and DS1104Z on the inside?
Once it's hacked you can unlock exactly the same features and it gives you the same performance?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2014, 03:09:29 am
Is the DS1000U series something Rigol only sell in China? I don't see reference to these models on other country's web sites.
Like the DG1022U variant of Rigol's DG1022 function generator it seems to be primarily intended for domestic markets, although it (there appears to be only one model, the DS1072U) is available in Western countries from various Chinese shippers, such as this one (http://www.rigoloscilloscope.co.uk/wholesale/RIGOL-DS1072U-70Mhz-Oscilloscope-FFT-500MSa-s-3-yrs-warranty-air-shipping-track-656.html), and there is an English manual (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fus.rigol.com%2Fdownload%2FOversea%2FDS%2FUser_guide%2FDS1000U_UserGuide_EN.pdf&ei=_btFVNi1EoHSaJD7gIAP&usg=AFQjCNHgAKPL6MzBuo4D6bDUvHUPrXwkfg&bvm=bv.77880786,d.ZWU) on Rigol's US website.

It's hard to imagine why anyone would want one, though - it only has half the sample rate and half the memory of the now rather obsolete DS1000E series scopes, and costs about the same.
The DS1102U is 100MHz, 1Gs/s, 16k samples of storage and its list price is CNY1580 (US$257). It looks like the ADC is a lower spec (or maybe there's a lower timing control spec) than the E series, as its repeat capture effective sampling rate is 10Gs/s, while the E series claims 25Gs/s. Most things about the U series seem essentially the same as the E series. I suspect, from some promotional stuff they are doing, that this might be their entry model going forward.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thisguy81 on October 21, 2014, 07:44:21 am
Hi guys,
So everyone is praising this new rigol, saying its a great value for 399.
Thats great but where do you get ?
where can i buy it, for that price, from a seller with international shipping ?
It will be very helpful if one will write where he got it from, and how much was the shipping.
Tried ebay but only one seller from italy for 530$ and no international shipping. than there is the H.K seller for the 1074 but thats 579+100 for shipping.
Any help will be appriciated ????
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aXion on October 21, 2014, 08:07:22 am
Thats great but where do you get ?

You could try www.batronix.com (http://www.batronix.com), The shipping costs to Israel would be €54.45 without VAT.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Nemesis on October 21, 2014, 08:59:03 am
Hi,

Going over this thread, I think this scope would be a good starting point for me.
Could someone please pm me the coupon code for Tequipment?

Thanks,
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JJalling on October 21, 2014, 09:50:59 am
Thats great but where do you get ?

Hi,

I bought mine from Silcon Electroincs (www.silicon.cz (http://www.silcon.cz) , EEVblog user Drieg). 294€ ex. VAT with free shipping within EU.
Excellent service, and very fast shipping - highly recommended.

BR Jonas

Edit: Link fix
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 21, 2014, 11:06:58 am
Thats great but where do you get ?

You could try www.batronix.com (http://www.batronix.com), The shipping costs to Israel would be €54.45 without VAT.

I got mine from Batronix.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aXion on October 21, 2014, 11:35:03 am
I also ordered the DS1054Z from Batronix a week ago. Unfortunately they were not in stock so I will have to wait at least another three weeks (according to their website). Bummer
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thisguy81 on October 21, 2014, 11:42:38 am
Thats great but where do you get ?

Hi,

I bought mine from Silcon Electroincs (www.silicon.cz (http://www.silicon.cz)). 294€ ex. VAT with free shipping within EU.
Excellent service, and very fast shipping - highly recommended.

BR Jonas

The link is broken..

BR Jonas
[/quote]
I also ordered the DS1054Z from Batronix a week ago. Unfortunately they were not in stock so I will have to wait at least another three weeks (according to their website). Bummer

Yes i know about them but like you said they are out of stock
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: deephaven on October 21, 2014, 11:54:06 am
Thats great but where do you get ?

Hi,

I bought mine from Silcon Electroincs (www.silicon.cz (http://www.silicon.cz)). 294€ ex. VAT with free shipping within EU.
Excellent service, and very fast shipping - highly recommended.

BR Jonas

The link is broken..

Yes i know about them but like you said they are out of stock

Typo, it's http://www.silcon.cz/ (http://www.silcon.cz/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 21, 2014, 02:04:25 pm
EDIT:  besides, when I prepared that retrospective, I thought we needed a break from the Hess/Marmad bout, that was in the 14th round.   :box:

Most boring bout ever  ;D

Two guys typing furiously:
"That is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"Uhh... no it isn't."
"Ok, THAT is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"No proof of that."
"Well, THAT is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"No, that's something else."
....
....
Rinse and repeat.  :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: iRad on October 21, 2014, 02:28:53 pm
Most boring bout ever   :rant:

Two guys typing furiously:
At least one of the two (of the worst offenders) finally realizes it...
Unfortunately, this thread has already been thoroughly hosed, making it difficult for the typical person looking to buy one of these scopes to navigate through the muck.  :palm:

Too bad we can't roll the clock back on this one to message #37 and start over, where Dave says the following.

Off hand I can't think of another scope that even comes close in bang-per-buck for the same price?
...people don't feel comfortable with this mathematical concept though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 21, 2014, 02:31:09 pm
I also ordered the DS1054Z from Batronix a week ago. Unfortunately they were not in stock so I will have to wait at least another three weeks (according to their website). Bummer
You should have tried arBenelux, they had one in stock last week.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thisguy81 on October 21, 2014, 02:39:11 pm
They just got back to me from silicon electronics: 486.65$ + 65 EURO for shipping, and can only insure up to 120 EUR....  :(

Any other idea's ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 21, 2014, 02:44:32 pm
Try the Swedish distributor for Rigol scopes:
http://www.instrumentcenter.se/sv/40-150-mhz-bandbredd/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloskop-med-50mhz-bandbredd-4-kanaler-1gsas-12mpts-minnesdjup-standard.php (http://www.instrumentcenter.se/sv/40-150-mhz-bandbredd/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloskop-med-50mhz-bandbredd-4-kanaler-1gsas-12mpts-minnesdjup-standard.php)



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 21, 2014, 02:51:06 pm
At least one of the two (of the worst offenders) finally realizes it...

Oh, I've realized it all along. The question is: would it better to just not respond when someone makes unsupported allegations about problems the DSO has?

Quote
Unfortunately, this thread has already been thoroughly hosed, making it difficult for the typical person looking to buy one of these scopes to navigate through the muck.  :palm:

Hosed? As much as I realize there has been some off-topic (or close to off-topic) stuff, there has also been a serious discussion about the capabilities/limitations of the DSO. If you're just interested in a love-fest discussing what a fabulous buy it is, and where you can find it - an EE blog is probably not the place to look.  ;D

Quote
Too bad we can't roll the clock back on this one to message #37 and start over, where Dave says the following.

...people don't feel comfortable with this mathematical concept though.

As much as I enjoy Dave's posts, it's already been shown that the DS1000Z is susceptible to aliasing due to the filter roll-off when expecting to get 100MHz with 3/4 channels @ 250MSa/s (although no one has yet tested and posted a chart of the 50MHz roll-off).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 21, 2014, 02:56:21 pm
(although no one has yet tested and posted a chart of the 50MHz roll-off).

Feel free to do so. Then we have facts on paper! :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on October 21, 2014, 02:58:00 pm
Meltronics in Tel Aviv is the Rigol distributor for Israel.
http://www.meltronics.co.il/ (http://www.meltronics.co.il/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thisguy81 on October 21, 2014, 03:07:54 pm
Meltronics in Tel Aviv is the Rigol distributor for Israel.
http://www.meltronics.co.il/ (http://www.meltronics.co.il/)

Yes, allready looked into that. Besides the fact they done have this model yet,and dont know if they will, they offered me to buy the DS1052E for 500$US.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: iRad on October 21, 2014, 03:13:27 pm
Quote
Too bad we can't roll the clock back on this one to message #37 and start over, where Dave says the following.

...people don't feel comfortable with this mathematical concept though.

As much as I enjoy Dave's posts, it's already been shown that he's incorrect in what he stated about the 100MHz bandwidth (although no one has yet tested and posted a chart of the 50MHz roll-off).

You deleted the part I was referring to... The mathematical concept of value for the buck.

I refuse to comment any further on this subject, as I'm not up to starting another unnecessary boxing match in this thread.    :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 21, 2014, 03:20:08 pm
You deleted the part I was referring to... The mathematical concept of value for the buck.

I refuse to comment any further on this subject, as I'm not up to starting another unnecessary boxing match in this thread.    :palm:

Yes... as you deleted the part directly before which it was referring to: the mathematical concept of bandwidth times sample rate.  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 21, 2014, 03:27:59 pm
At least one of the two (of the worst offenders) finally realizes it...

Oh, I've realized it all along. The question is: would it better to just not respond when someone makes unsupported allegations about problems the DSO has?

YES

As the Talking Heads put it, Say something once, why say it again?   Of course it's always easier to apply this rule to someone else.

ETA: By which I mean, it's fine to disagree with someone, but try not to insist on having the last word.  Open minded people will get your point.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 21, 2014, 03:45:14 pm
I also ordered the DS1054Z from Batronix a week ago. Unfortunately they were not in stock so I will have to wait at least another three weeks (according to their website). Bummer
You should have tried arBenelux, they had one in stock last week.
Yes, I have no affiliation with them, but if you live in the Netherlands and need a Rigol device do buy from them. I bought several Rigol devices there and their service is excellent.
Example: after about 3 months of use my DS2072 developed a problem on channel 1 (signals were 20+ dB down). No idea why, I don't think it was because I made a mistake. Anyway, they called me back the next day, telling me that they couldn't fix it themselves and we going to send the device back to Rigol. AND they were going to send me a new one the same day, at no cost and again with a full 3 years of warranty.
Recommended!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 21, 2014, 03:46:55 pm
YES

As the Talking Heads put it, Say something once, why say it again?   Of course it's always easier to apply this rule to someone else.

Not to worry: I have a MSO1000Z arriving in a couple of days, so I'll start a separate thread discussing it's capabilities/limitations.

Of course, no Americans allowed (except Mark O!) ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 21, 2014, 03:55:36 pm
At least one of the two (of the worst offenders) finally realizes it...

Oh, I've realized it all along. The question is: would it better to just not respond when someone makes unsupported allegations about problems the DSO has?

YES

As the Talking Heads put it, Say something once, why say it again?   Of course it's always easier to apply this rule to someone else.
Hmm I know it it's always the ones with the outspoken / strong opinions your hear of. I am curious how the silent minority in this forum feels about this issue.
Anyway, I think that the end result of the discussion(s) is an enhanced insight in the performance of the scope & there are things to be learned and understood (for instance the leakage issue near Fnyquist was an eye-opener for me).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 21, 2014, 05:07:57 pm
As much as I realize there has been some off-topic (or close to off-topic) stuff, there has also been a serious discussion about the capabilities/limitations of the DSO.
And I for one am grateful for it. As Harry Callahan (almost) said, a man's got to know his scope's limitations.

As has been observed elsewhere, forum threads are not the best place for neatly packaged, predigested knowledge such as that found in textbooks or wikis. They are rather more like research notebooks; little nuggets of new information which may be available nowhere else, embedded in strata of less useful data.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: radiogeek97 on October 21, 2014, 06:04:19 pm
Thanks to dave's review and to all the helpful folks here!  I sold my trusty 1052E on Ebay for a very good price and ordered my 1054z last night from T-equipment.  Unfortunately they are on back order for atleast 2 weeks  :-[   Will post my first impressions/ findings when it arrives  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 21, 2014, 09:49:15 pm
Oops. My bad. The 10 MHz is indeed your blue line riding the wavecrests, not my (5 MHz) red line. Was not paying attention (and counting) as I was trying to reconcile the two signals (120 and 130) into a DSB waveform.

What kind of results do you get when averaging is used?

On my 2440 I can recover the original waveform at the wrong amplitude which is then rectified if I enable ETS.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 21, 2014, 10:12:42 pm
Two guys typing furiously:
"That is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"Uhh... no it isn't."
"Ok, THAT is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"No proof of that."
"Well, THAT is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"No, that's something else."
....
....
Rinse and repeat.  :D

I agree that I initially chased the wrong problem but none of the signal sources used in the tests would have revealed the non-linearity discussed in the Agilent document I linked.

The interleaving issue affecting non-linearity came back with your own post although I did not bring it up then.  The datasheet you linked for the HMCAD1511 specifically mentions and includes specifications for "interleaving spurs" leading to an 13 dB difference in SFDR at 71 MHz.

On the bright side, I now have a clearer understanding of the limitations of Rigol's DSOs and other DSOs and I know better what tests to do when evaluating them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 21, 2014, 10:14:46 pm
If the filter was long enough, then the 130 MHz image would have been removed.  The filter however is shorter than this because of both performance reasons and because the filter length subtracts from the usable record length at the ends where a full set of samples is not available to calculate it.

Hm I think I can see how with (much) longer sampling you might get rid of the mirror (leaked) frequency, as the sampling points "move" over the fundamental. but, but... wouldn't that be ETS?? sounds like cheating?

It would not be ETS any more than triggering after reconstruction which happens now.  It would still work on a single acquisition.  Incidently, ETS works with single acquisitions by aligning the waveform with the trigger point producing the same result as triggering after reconstruction.

Longer FIR filters require both proportionally more processing and more memory so it is not surprising that the minimal acceptable size is used.  This is especially a problem with FPGA based designs where the reconstructed sample rate is higher than the FPGA multiplier cycle time so the logic for the filter would have to be duplicated multiple times.  The filter could be implemented after acquisition like older DSOs but then the beginning and end of the acquisition record would need to be truncated where the input to the filter is invalid and high waveform acquisition rates would be more difficult.

Even in the best case, what would be gained?  The difference between 100 MHz and the 125 MHz Nyquist frequency is only 25 MHz.  I could see having it as a post-processing option on a long record length DSO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 21, 2014, 11:13:25 pm
DSOs with longer and sharper reconstruction filters will display more accurate results up to their Nyquist frequency.

I have seen no evidence that any DSO manufacturer is doing this. Tek claims their FIR filters pass frequency components up to 80% of the Nyquist frequency - which, coincidentally, is 100MHz @ 250MSas/s rate - same ratio as what we see on the Rigol DS1000Z. Do you have have any specs or docs from any DSO that claim a higher percentage? It's all well and good to claim that something is mathematically possible - like travelling at just under the speed of light -  but it's quite another thing to realize it.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 22, 2014, 10:30:15 am
Oh, I've realized it all along. The question is: would it better to just not respond when someone makes unsupported allegations about problems the DSO has?

YES

As the Talking Heads put it, Say something once, why say it again?   Of course it's always easier to apply this rule to someone else.

What if somebody drops in here and only reads the last few posts? If the only person still posting is the idiot/moron then they might get completely the wrong idea.

You don't have to write essays, just say "Nope, you're still wrong - re-read previous answers".

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on October 22, 2014, 06:00:32 pm
Quote from: people link=topic=36920 date=allthetime
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH ....
What if somebody drops in here and only reads the last few posts? If the only person still posting is the idiot/moron then they might get completely the wrong idea.

I agree. This thread puts some threads on XDA to shame ;p

FFS US$399!!!!

Works just fine on 8Mhz SPI signals and decoding/triggering 4 channels, what more do you need?  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 22, 2014, 07:41:45 pm
FFS US$399!!!!

:palm:

Yep, I can't believe anybody is nitrpicking over a $400 oscilloscope that can do as much as this one can. Demanding proof that the hack version really does have 100Mhz, because it's a ripoff if it doesn't (or something). I dunno what their point is to be honest, this thing's a total bargain even at 50MHz.

  :-//  |O  :palm:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on October 22, 2014, 10:23:41 pm
On my 2440 I can recover the original waveform at the wrong amplitude, which is then rectified if I enable ETS.

Full-wave or half-wave?   :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on October 22, 2014, 10:38:07 pm
Yep, I can't believe anybody is nitrpicking over a $400 oscilloscope that can do as much as this one can.
While it is incredible for the price, apparent oversights and rounded corners are still apparent oversights and rounded corners though.

This is just like any tool: once you know one of your favorite tools has a quirk you do not like, it will always be on the back of your mind regardless of how great it is otherwise.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on October 22, 2014, 11:41:46 pm
Seems to me a psychological problem rather than a problem with the tool.

Can it be fixed? Yes - make it so. No - oh well, that's life. Move on, nothing to see here.   :-BROKE

I'm just amazed at the bang per buck of this stuff, it just kills pro stuff I've worked with in the not too distant past.

Maybe a "Pushing the Rigol 1000Z series to the limits" thread is needed?

 :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on October 23, 2014, 02:55:26 am
FYI those in Oz who have been asking.
Emona will have stock on the 11th Nov.
I suspect they might sell out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 24, 2014, 09:44:15 am
What kind of results do you get when averaging is used?

On my 2440 I can recover the original waveform at the wrong amplitude which is then rectified if I enable ETS.
Averaging has (as I expected) no effect on the displayed waveform. That is, if triggering is on the top of the highest wave so the display is stable in normal mode. See attachments.
If I have the trigger level on 0 volt the display is of course not stable, and in that case averaging shows a somewhat constant amplitude that is, indeed, the average of the amplitude(s)

The frequency counter is totally lost here :) The counter is not a HW counter as in the DS2000 series.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 24, 2014, 01:30:32 pm
What kind of results do you get when averaging is used?

On my 2440 I can recover the original waveform at the wrong amplitude which is then rectified if I enable ETS.

Averaging has (as I expected) no effect on the displayed waveform. That is, if triggering is on the top of the highest wave so the display is stable in normal mode. See attachments.
If I have the trigger level on 0 volt the display is of course not stable, and in that case averaging shows a somewhat constant amplitude that is, indeed, the average of the amplitude(s)

Thank you for checking this.  It is what I expected as well.  I thought Rigol might have some special trick for handling this usage case but there really is no reason to.

Old DSOs with analog triggering behave differently because the trigger sees the original waveform without the aliasing and not what is shown when single shot acquisitions are made.  Both return misleading but different results.  If the signal source is a fast edge instead of a high frequency sine wave which is a more typical application, then both should return the same non-misleading results when averaging is used.

Quote
The frequency counter is totally lost here :) The counter is not a HW counter as in the DS2000 series.

I did not know the DS2000 series has a hardware counter.  Those are very nice to have sometimes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 25, 2014, 06:02:27 pm
There are now so many DS1000Z threads that it's difficult to know where to post, but since we've been discussing the subject of sample rates and aliasing here, I figured I'd post it here (with a link over from the main DS1074Z thread).

Until now, the only info about the 20MHz BW limit roll-off I've seen was this graph made by seronday (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/msg337710/#msg337710) (which I used earlier in this thread when making a possible overall BW graph for the DS1000Z). Well, I don't have the necessary equipment to do a proper BW graph (no signal generator that goes high enough), but my simple test seems to indicate that either seronday's graph is wrong - or there is a lot of difference among the various models (I've got a MSO1074Z). Perhaps some other owners would like to test this as well?

In seronday's graph, he shows 100MHz as being attenuated to about -11.3dB when the 20MHz BW limit is turned on.   Edit: I think I stayed up too late working that night  :) - seronday's graph pretty well matches my own measurement.

My test shows a 100MHz 400mV sine being attenuated to ~-7.8dB.

First, here is a 100MHz sine on the DS2000, with and without the 20MHz limit on (-13.2dB down):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=114723)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=114725)


And here is a 100MHz sine on the MSO1000Z, with and without the 20MHz limit on (-7.8dB down):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=114727)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=114729)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 25, 2014, 07:21:24 pm
It would be as or more interesting to see the positive and negative transition time results under optimum conditions with the different bandwidth limits.  Then contrast those with the -3 dB bandwidth measurements to see how closely the oscilloscope follows (or does not follow) the 0.35 rule for a single pole roll off.

Then do the same at different vertical sensitivities and especially at the highest and lowest or at least when the high impedance attenuator is engaged.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 25, 2014, 07:51:30 pm
Test with my 1074Z ("upgraded" to 100 MHz - Marmad is your scope still original 70 MHz? if so this might explain the 2 dB difference)
205 mV with no BWL (@ 100 MHz) and 73 mV with 20 MHz BWL = -8.97 dB

Tomorrow I will do some risetime tests with my Williams pulse generator
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 25, 2014, 08:10:43 pm
Test with a Williams pulse generator. 3 meters of coax on the collector to ensure a long enough pulse.

With no BWL the risetime is 3.1 ns. If we use 0.35 the Bandwidth would be 0.35/3.1e-9 = 113 MHz. Sounds plausible
With 20 MHz BWL the risetime is 14.7 ns, i.e. 0.35 / 14.7e-9 = 23.8 MHz.
Hmm looks ok'ish?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 25, 2014, 08:15:25 pm
Marmad is your scope still original 70 MHz? if so this might explain the 2 dB difference

Yes, it's a loaner so it's unmodified. But the difference between our measurements was just slightly over 1dB.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on October 25, 2014, 08:20:43 pm
Marmad is your scope still original 70 MHz? if so this might explain the 2 dB difference

Yes, it's a loaner so it's unmodified. But the difference between our measurements was just slightly over 1dB.
O yes. Well this 1 dB can be easily explained by the more limited BW of your scope so the amplitude is already a bit more down at 100 MHz than with my scope.
It looks like our scopes are probably not much different and seronday's  -11.3 dB is possibly faulty.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 25, 2014, 09:17:02 pm
1) Is there any kind of information about these options?  I have found nothing beyond a brief sentence summary.
There's quite a bit of info in the user manual (http://www.adafruit.com/datasheets/DS1000z_Manual.pdf).

Quote
2) Are these options field-installable after the fact?  Or  must they be ordered with the unit?
They can be bought at any time (it's just a software key). There are also hacks available on this blog.

Quote
3) Does the "Serial Bus Analysis Option" possibly include Lan-C ?  (The Sony/Canon camera control protocol, see: EEVblog #297)
Or could I write a macro or something to add that to the protocols?
No - and no.

Quote
4) There is also an option: AT-DS1000Z - Advanced Triggering Option: RS232/UART,I2C,SPI,Runt,Windows,Nth Edge,
Do I need that ALSO in order to use the Serial Bus Analysis Option?
I don't think it's absolutely necessary (although I've never tried) - the Decode section has it's own definable parameters that are used irrespective of the trigger. But it makes life easier since you can get the Trigger working on the bus first, then just copy the Trigger settings to the Decode section.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 25, 2014, 09:19:16 pm
O yes. Well this 1 dB can be easily explained by the more limited BW of your scope so the amplitude is already a bit more down at 100 MHz than with my scope.

That sounds about right. It's just a pity that the DS2000 has a better 20MHz limiter, even with double the base bandwidth, but I guess that's the drawback to the discrete front-end of the DS1000Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 10:42:22 pm
TEquipment is apparently out of stock, I guess that should be no great surprise
And I don't see any hint of when they think they might be in stock, probably not a big surprise, either.

I am very conflicted about when to order.  I am going to be out of town the first week of November,
and I don't want to order it now and possibly have them send it to be delivered while I am gone.
And I don't know how long the $399 price will remain?

He said 3 days ago that they have 100 more in order coming this week within 5 days so any time now and that most are sold out but some might be left, then another order 4 weeks later, why don't you PM Evan?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/msg535230/#msg535230 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/msg535230/#msg535230)

Edit: as for your other questions, they do come with a free trial, so you can see if they fit your need before purchasing if you do feel uncomfortable by "unlocking" them like some are doing.

If you purchase them or unlock them, it's a serial code that you enter with the scope after the fact.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on October 25, 2014, 10:50:37 pm
Quote
3) Does the "Serial Bus Analysis Option" possibly include Lan-C ?  (The Sony/Canon camera control protocol, see: EEVblog #297)
Or could I write a macro or something to add that to the protocols?
No - and no.

Not really an absolute No, he could take the recorded waveform and convert it to digital levels respecting the timing and feed that to his own decoder.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: seronday on October 25, 2014, 11:28:22 pm
In seronday's graph, he shows 100MHz as being attenuated to about -11.3dB when the 20MHz BW limit is turned on. My test shows a 100MHz 400mV sine being attenuated to ~-7.8dB.
Marmad,
The reference frequency for all levels on the Graph in question is 1Mhz.
You appear to be measuring the difference in levels at 100Mhz which is in fact approx. 8dB.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 25, 2014, 11:53:38 pm
Quote
3) Does the "Serial Bus Analysis Option" possibly include Lan-C ?  (The Sony/Canon camera control protocol, see: EEVblog #297)
Or could I write a macro or something to add that to the protocols?
No - and no.

Not really an absolute No, he could take the recorded waveform and convert it to digital levels respecting the timing and feed that to his own decoder.

That goes without saying; you can do the exact same thing for any DSO that can save a waveform (virtually every one manufactured). But that is neither a macro nor something you can add to the existing protocols (i.e. internally).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 26, 2014, 12:03:31 am
Marmad,
The reference frequency for all levels on the Graph in question is 1Mhz.
You appear to be measuring the difference in levels at 100Mhz which is in fact approx. 8dB.

Ok. But I didn't see that mentioned in your original post (although I now see the graph begins at 1MHz) - and why 1MHz for a 100MHz DSO?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: seronday on October 26, 2014, 01:13:07 am
Marmad.
When measuring the frequency response of an instrument such as an oscilloscope you would normally start at DC and work upwards in frequency from there, to find and record any variations in level.

A quick check doing this on a DS1074Z shows that the frequency response is essentially flat up to about 12Mhz and then starts to roll off.
When the 20Mhz Band Limit Filter is selected the roll off starts at approx 3Mhz.

Generally in the performance verification documentation for an oscilloscope, the manufacturer specifies the reference frequency to use for the bandwith performance measurement.
This document does not appear to exist as yet for the Rigol DS1000Z series.
There is however such a document for the DS4000 series in which they do specify using 1Mhz as the reference frequency.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 26, 2014, 01:14:50 am
Test with a Williams pulse generator. 3 meters of coax on the collector to ensure a long enough pulse.

With no BWL the risetime is 3.1 ns. If we use 0.35 the Bandwidth would be 0.35/3.1e-9 = 113 MHz. Sounds plausible
With 20 MHz BWL the risetime is 14.7 ns, i.e. 0.35 / 14.7e-9 = 23.8 MHz.
Hmm looks ok'ish?

They look fine to me.  The 3.1 nanosecond example might be showing dribble-up in the charge line.  I wonder what that little dip is before the leading edge in both examples.  I have seen it before and been given several explanations depending on the oscilloscope design.

I was chatting in email with someone about the design and came up with a calculated value of below 28 MHz for the 20 MHz bandwidth limit from Dave's reverse engineered schematic.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 26, 2014, 01:54:34 am
Marmad,
The reference frequency for all levels on the Graph in question is 1Mhz.
You appear to be measuring the difference in levels at 100Mhz which is in fact approx. 8dB.

Ok. But I didn't see that mentioned in your original post (although I now see the graph begins at 1MHz) - and why 1MHz for a 100MHz DSO?

The reference level on an SG503 leveled sine wave generator intended for testing oscilloscopes up to 250 MHz is 50 kHz.  On an SG504 intended for testing from 250 MHz to 1 GHz, it is 50 kHz and 6 MHz.  The flatness of the leveled generator will be specified in comparison to the reference frequency and they will perform better than typical RF test equipment; amplitude variation could be within 4% (0.35dB) or better.  The graph I posted in that discussion thread from a 2232 should be within +1.5/-1.0% or about 0.22 dB peak to peak error.

Calibration of a leveled sine wave generator itself presents an interesting dilemma.

Like seronday says, the oscilloscope calibration instructions or specifications often or usually include the reference frequency used for flatness.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on October 26, 2014, 01:33:03 pm
Marmad.
When measuring the frequency response of an instrument such as an oscilloscope you would normally start at DC and work upwards in frequency from there, to find and record any variations in level.

Doh! :-[  Wow, somehow my left brain was malfunctioning yesterday (probably from breathing too much dust - I'm in the middle of a demolition of my old kitchen) and I somehow overlooked the obvious. Sorry about that (although I still don't understand why your frequency axis is non-uniform  :) )!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on October 28, 2014, 05:00:22 pm
It looks like shipping date from Tequipment has moved to November 20, 2014 :(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on October 28, 2014, 05:34:35 pm
False alarm
Quote
You may have received an automated message stating your ship date was changed to 11/20/2014.  Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience, as your order is firm and your ship date is ~11/3/2014. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nkw on October 28, 2014, 05:47:54 pm
False alarm
Quote
You may have received an automated message stating your ship date was changed to 11/20/2014.  Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience, as your order is firm and your ship date is ~11/3/2014. 

Can I ask how/when you received the second message? I received the delay e-mail with the 11/20 date this morning but not the second message with the 11/3 date. I'm trying to decide if I should cancel with tequipment and look someplace else.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on October 28, 2014, 05:50:04 pm
It came from Christine Hoh from Tequipment  35 minutes ago.

I'd contact them directly if you have doubts.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nkw on October 28, 2014, 06:21:51 pm
It came from Christine Hoh from Tequipment  35 minutes ago.

Received an email from them about 15 minutes after I posted about it. Nov-3 is much better than Nov-20. Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on October 28, 2014, 08:37:44 pm
Just to update everyone.  We have 85 units coming in on this shipment.  This shipment is sold though.  If you are part of the 85 that are inbound, you got an email about the error in pushing the date back. 

We have a special air shipment of 100 units coming Nov 20th and then we have a  bunch more arriving in early December.  We have some units on the November shipment that are not sold yet. We have the only stock in the USA at this point until December because of our big pre orders.

Thanks for the business!
Evan Cirelli
TEquipment.NET

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JoeO on October 28, 2014, 08:52:39 pm
Thanks for the update Evan. 

I have also received the 2 emails with the 11/3 ship date in the second email.

JOe
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Micael on October 30, 2014, 12:18:05 pm
Got this email from batronix:

"On 24th October you have ordered a Rigol DS1054Z.

Herewith, we would like to inform you that your requested device is not available yet.

At the moment, we are waiting on three deliveries from Rigol for this device. The estimated time of arrival for the first delivery lies between November 7th - 10th. The second delivery approximately at the beginning of December, the third around mid of December.

Due to your position in our waiting list, you will receive a device from the second delivery. We are sorry for the inconvenience.

We are apologising for this delay. The demand for this devise is unexpectedly high. Rigol itself can currently not manufacture as many devises as needed at the moment.

If the time of waiting is too long for you, you are welcome to choose a similar product from this series. We grant you a 8% discount because of the special circumstances.

Best regards,

Thorsten Schliszio"

I guess the DS1054Z is going to be an early Christmas present over here.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: argg on October 30, 2014, 06:32:51 pm
same here,  I ordered today and they promised to ship with the delivery they expect on Dec 6.  Early Xmas for us indeed  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fcsteve777 on October 31, 2014, 01:41:19 pm
Just placed my order. Also allocated for the Dec. 6 Order! :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thoe on October 31, 2014, 06:32:46 pm
Got this email from batronix:

"On 24th October you have ordered a Rigol DS1054Z.
[...]

Got the same mail a few days ago, ordered on 17th - and also in the second delivery.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: electr_peter on November 01, 2014, 06:44:11 pm
I am waiting for the first shippment from Batronix (nov. 6). If anyone would be interested in getting DS1054Z quicker, I could trade my spot sell scope once it arrives to PL, LT and LV residents (with postal service/local pickup) and still get scope in a new batch before Christmas.

EDIT: Batronix does not allow to change delivery address at this late state. Local pickup/postal parcel offer still valid for PL/LT/LV residents.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Micael on November 01, 2014, 10:04:24 pm
Quite the generous offer, although I suspect that batronix wouldn't be able to do that, they can't even issue an invoice until the item is scanned for shipping, so I assume (possibly wrongly) that they might not be able to change places in queues either.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: orin on November 04, 2014, 10:05:12 pm
Evan,

Your system seems to have gone seriously nuts...

Order 10/23
10/24 confirmation with expected ship date 10/30
10/28 update with expected ship date 11/20
Yesterday, 11/3 update with expected ship date 11/3
Today, 11/4 update with expected ship date 11/20

Edit/update:

11/6 update with ship date of 11/6 for the freebie AC Voltage Sensor
11/11 tracking # for freebie that shipped 11/10 (Why?  The order is marked ship complete.)
11/12 update with expected ship date 11/12

I anxiously await the next installment in this drama.  Edit: Again.

Orin.

Just to update everyone.  We have 85 units coming in on this shipment.  This shipment is sold though.  If you are part of the 85 that are inbound, you got an email about the error in pushing the date back. 

We have a special air shipment of 100 units coming Nov 20th and then we have a  bunch more arriving in early December.  We have some units on the November shipment that are not sold yet. We have the only stock in the USA at this point until December because of our big pre orders.

Thanks for the business!
Evan Cirelli
TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 1uk3 on November 05, 2014, 07:59:04 pm
Batronix shipped the first batch today :clap:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: radiogeek97 on November 06, 2014, 11:13:42 am
Mine arrived from t-equipment yesterday  :clap:   All I have managed to do with my 2 y/o under foot is to un box it and make some changes wink wink. ALL WORKED     now all I am waiting for is the cash for a dsa815tg.   T-equipment ships fast and their customer service has been great I guess from all accounts they have been flooded with orders for this and just don't have product to ship. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: baltersice on November 06, 2014, 11:56:03 am
(http://i.imgur.com/uAhCdgNs.jpg) (http://imgur.com/uAhCdgN)
Got mine from Batronix today, best spot on the desk assigned (:
But that fan really is too audible for me, must find replacement for that ...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on November 06, 2014, 05:34:49 pm
Just an FYI for people in the states... Our next shipment comes in about 10 days. It should be a little earlier than expected.

Out of the 95 we have 14 not sold yet if any eevblog members want to get them before the rest of the world does.  We will be sold out in a few days until the beginning of dec.

Thanks
Evan
TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: schollce on November 06, 2014, 08:22:20 pm
Is there still an EEVBlog discount and/or student discount available for the DS1054Z? As a CE student, I was eyeing the DS1052E a while ago, but for the price difference, this model is hard to beat. Really need to learn the hardware side of things.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 07, 2014, 12:20:40 am
I have one on order from Emona here in Australia, has anyone else? If so have you received it? It should be close.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: briselec on November 07, 2014, 03:50:41 am
I have one on order from Emona here in Australia, has anyone else? If so have you received it? It should be close.

Ordered in September, told 4 weeks, rang when I didn't hear anything, told another 4 weeks which means around the end of november. Not getting my hopes up that it will be here by then.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mathieu on November 07, 2014, 10:29:20 am
(http://i.imgur.com/uAhCdgNs.jpg) (http://imgur.com/uAhCdgN)
Got mine from Batronix today, best spot on the desk assigned (:
But that fan really is too audible for me, must find replacement for that ...

Hi!
I placed in my DS1000z the GELID Silent 5 fan. (gelidsolutions.com)
Its working very quiet!

Mathieu
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thoe on November 07, 2014, 11:37:42 am
[..]
I placed in my DS1000z the GELID Silent 5 fan. (gelidsolutions.com)
Its working very quiet!
[..]

... thanks for sharing your experience, i think one of the first things to do is replacing the fan.
(My order has been shipped yesterday from Batronix.  :-+)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 07, 2014, 07:01:51 pm
My first comment here ...

I just want to say thank you to all the participants in the aliasing and bandwidth conversation ... it helped round out my amateur understanding of the theory and REALLY helped me know what to expect with my first digital scope (yep, I'm still lugging a boat anchor around all over the place).  I am especially thankful that replies to errant interpretations are handled gently and without personal insult.  The corrections and explanation of different contexts that bring meaning to the specs are valuable.  It's one thing to understand the glossed-over explanations of Nyquist theorem, it's another to learn what the actual ramifications are, complete with screenshots.

I really appreciate it.

I placed my order with TEquipment last night, my order confirmation says estmated shipment 11/27.  (Pouting about that.)  Hopefully it won't come with a different firmware.  :)

I have a question for the experts here ....  In my field sometimes I have to take some pretty dangerous measurements.  By that I mean looking at a waveform across a device that might be 600 volts DC off ground (yikes).  Since isolated probes are extremely expensive, it is (unofficially) routine to break the rules by 'floating' the case of the scope on an insulated surface and using an isolation transformer to power the scope (and not touching the case when the power is on).  The question is, are there any special considerations with this new digital scope that would make things any different from the old analog scope when making floating measurements like this?  (Obligatory note: I work with dangerous equipment that has dangerous voltages and this practice is not recommended.  You're supposed to buy an isolated/insulated scope and/or an isolated probe.  Don't try this at home or at work.  I already know this.)


--Wyatt--
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on November 07, 2014, 07:10:00 pm
The question is, are there any special considerations with this new digital scope that would make things any different from the old analog scope when making floating measurements like this?

Good question :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on November 07, 2014, 07:14:54 pm
Our shipment should be here a week early but we dont want to update dates again.  If it comes early great! ( they are in transit now from china via air )  If not we are giving that date for now.

Thanks
Evan

TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 07, 2014, 07:29:52 pm
For those in Australia who are keen to get one of the DS1054z.

I spoke too, and received an email from Emona in Melbourne on 31/10/14, confirming that stock should be available from 24/11/14. At the time of correspondence the expected initial shipment was for 50 units, 30 of which had been pre allocated. Following shipments will be staggered and not far away, and availability dates in other states may vary accordingly.

Personally a DSO is not a regular item that occupy's my bench space and I still enjoy using the TDS 1002, others may need one going 24/7 for their projects and repairs. Then of course the dilemma factor comes into play, do I jump on the current version which may be end user " enhanced ", or do I hold off and wait for the dust to settle and risk that later versions may have a restriction on options.

I still have a theory that nowadays devices that can be modded or user enhanced get far more attention and free promotion in this media than they otherwise would, anyway food for thought.

Muttley
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on November 07, 2014, 07:34:25 pm
I have a question for the experts here ....  In my field sometimes I have to take some pretty dangerous measurements.  By that I mean looking at a waveform across a device that might be 600 volts DC off ground (yikes).  Since isolated probes are extremely expensive, it is (unofficially) routine to break the rules by 'floating' the case of the scope on an insulated surface and using an isolation transformer to power the scope (and not touching the case when the power is on).  The question is, are there any special considerations with this new digital scope that would make things any different from the old analog scope when making floating measurements like this?  (Obligatory note: I work with dangerous equipment that has dangerous voltages and this practice is not recommended.  You're supposed to buy an isolated/insulated scope and/or an isolated probe.  Don't try this at home or at work.  I already know this.)


--Wyatt--

Not an expert, but there is a safer alternative, but you are still dealing with high voltages so the only safe way will be not to do things you don't fully understand that are dangerous.

You can use 2 channels with A+B and inverting B, like people been doing it on analog scopes when you need to measure voltages that are not ground referenced to your equipment after removing the ground clips on your probes.

Still you need good quality probes for the task and your scope should be able to handle that voltage. In the case of the DS1054Z is only rated up to 300V RMS, not sure on DC you will have to look up the specs.

Also the probes that come with it are probably no good for 600V.

And finally, Math function on digital scopes (at least at this price level) required to do the A + Inverse B, is not particularly fast, but should be fine for low frequencies or when real time is not that important.

I wouldn't use this scope for measuring anything higher than mains, and I wouldn't use it to measure mains because there is rarely a reason to do that when you can use a DMM instead for most tasks.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 07, 2014, 07:35:32 pm
Thanks, Evan.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 07, 2014, 07:41:19 pm

Not an expert, but there is a safer alternative, but you are still dealing with high voltages so the only safe way will be not to do things you don't fully understand that are dangerous.

You can use 2 channels with A+B and inverting B, like people been doing it on analog scopes when you need to measure voltages that are not ground referenced to your equipment after removing the ground clips on your probes.

Still you need good quality probes for the task and your scope should be able to handle that voltage. In the case of the DS1054Z is only rated up to 300V RMS, not sure on DC you will have to look up the specs.

Also the probes that come with it are probably no good for 600V.

And finally, Math function on digital scopes (at least at this price level) required to do the A + Inverse B, is not particularly fast, but should be fine for low frequencies or when real time is not that important.

I wouldn't use this scope for measuring anything higher than mains, and I wouldn't use it to measure mains because there is rarely a reason to do that when you can use a DMM instead for most tasks.

Thank you for your reply.  I use a 100x probe for this, one of the things that gets looked at is the DV/DT of the spike across an SCR at up to 1200 volts.  (Yikes!) I hope I am not mistaken in thinking that the 100x probe allows measuring higher voltage?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on November 07, 2014, 07:46:34 pm
I use a 100x probe for this, one of the things that gets looked at is the DV/DT of the spike across an SCR at up to 1200 volts.  (Yikes!) I hope I am not mistaken in thinking that the 100x probe allows measuring higher voltage?

A 10x probe allows a higher test voltage by a factor of 10, and yes 100x a factor of 100...... BUT!

Remember that the probe ground IS AT EARTH GROUND and you cannot connect that anywhere except for a confirmed earth potential on the device under test unless the device under test is connected using an isolation transformer. The probe also need to be rated for the higher voltage your are probing and preferably with a proper CAT rating and with a 3rd party certification.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 07, 2014, 07:57:13 pm

A 10x probe allows a higher test voltage by a factor of 10, and yes 100x a factor of 100...... BUT!

Remember that the probe ground IS AT EARTH GROUND and you cannot connect that anywhere except for a confirmed earth potential on the device under test unless the device under test is connected using an isolation transformer. The probe also need to be rated for the higher voltage your are probing and preferably with a proper CAT rating and with a 3rd party certification.

Understood, thanks.  I already have the proper probe.  The device under test is usually bigger than an elephant, so it is the scope the gets connected by an isolation transformer, and the probe is at case potential (don't touch!).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on November 07, 2014, 08:50:39 pm
I have a question for the experts here ....  In my field sometimes I have to take some pretty dangerous measurements.  By that I mean looking at a waveform across a device that might be 600 volts DC off ground (yikes).  Since isolated probes are extremely expensive, it is (unofficially) routine to break the rules by 'floating' the case of the scope on an insulated surface and using an isolation transformer to power the scope (and not touching the case when the power is on).  The question is, are there any special considerations with this new digital scope that would make things any different from the old analog scope when making floating measurements like this?  (Obligatory note: I work with dangerous equipment that has dangerous voltages and this practice is not recommended.  You're supposed to buy an isolated/insulated scope and/or an isolated probe.  Don't try this at home or at work.  I already know this.)

Could you afford $650 for a Rigol RP1050D?

http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/RP1050D/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/RP1050D/)
http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/RP1000D_UserGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/RP1000D_UserGuide_EN.pdf)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 07, 2014, 08:51:54 pm
Keep in mind that attenuating probes have their own voltage limits.  A typical x100 probe is only good to 1.2 to 2.0 kilovolts no matter what the oscilloscope input can handle.  This is one of those applications where I would derate the probe's voltage specification just for safety; I like Lightages' comment about using probes with CAT certification.

The attenuation of the probes combined with the oscilloscope input scale factors on both channels are unlikely to match exactly which will lower the common mode rejection ratio at low frequencies but most oscilloscopes have some kind of variable gain function which allows the combined probes and channels to be matched which will significantly improve common mode rejection.  The Rigol has a fine vertical scale adjustment which should cover this although the documentation does not describe it well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Micael on November 07, 2014, 09:37:43 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/uAhCdgNs.jpg) (http://imgur.com/uAhCdgN)
Got mine from Batronix today, best spot on the desk assigned (:
But that fan really is too audible for me, must find replacement for that ...

Hi!
I placed in my DS1000z the GELID Silent 5 fan. (gelidsolutions.com)
Its working very quiet!

Mathieu

I'm assuming doing this broke the warranty?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on November 07, 2014, 10:25:09 pm
The question is, are there any special considerations with this new digital scope that would make things any different from the old analog scope when making floating measurements like this?  (Obligatory note: I work with dangerous equipment that has dangerous voltages and this practice is not recommended.  You're supposed to buy an isolated/insulated scope and/or an isolated probe.  Don't try this at home or at work.  I already know this.)
If you need to make differential measurements on medium/high-voltage circuits on a semi-regular basis, you really should follow your own advice and get a proper high-voltage differential probe.

Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 08, 2014, 04:06:52 am
Thanks for your replies.  I'd like that nice high voltage differential probe but I can't justify it.  I might need to take a measurement like I described maybe once every three years or so (I learned how to troubleshoot 99% of the problems without looking at that waveform).

It seems all the considerations for doing this are the same whether the scope is digital or analog....

Just a comment about the bandwidth / aliasing discussion ... whenever you're working with power inverters, choppers, etc., about the only place you ever see anything that resembles a sine wave is at the output, and that's when everything is working right.  :)  Often what needs to be caught is the amplitude of a steep spike, as across an SCR in a commutating circuit, and often when there are problems to troubleshoot, transients are involved that can destroy devices.  There's no way I can be sure there won't be high frequency components on a waveform, generally.  That's one of the reasons why I appreciated that discussion.  That said, we generally get by on mediocre equipment, helped by a knowledge of its limitations.  So thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 08, 2014, 09:49:30 am
Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.

Jim Williams designed and built a more demanding differential probe which is documented started at page 72 of Linear Technology application note 65.  The custom differential input amplifier he designed fits within your $40 budget but would need some changes for DC operation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mathieu on November 08, 2014, 01:25:29 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/uAhCdgNs.jpg) (http://imgur.com/uAhCdgN)
Got mine from Batronix today, best spot on the desk assigned (:
But that fan really is too audible for me, must find replacement for that ...

Hi!
I placed in my DS1000z the GELID Silent 5 fan. (gelidsolutions.com)
Its working very quiet!

Mathieu

I'm assuming doing this broke the warranty?

Better broken the warranty in stead of the sound barrier!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on November 08, 2014, 02:38:18 pm
Just a comment about the bandwidth / aliasing discussion ... whenever you're working with power inverters, choppers, etc., about the only place you ever see anything that resembles a sine wave is at the output, and that's when everything is working right.  :)  Often what needs to be caught is the amplitude of a steep spike, as across an SCR in a commutating circuit, and often when there are problems to troubleshoot, transients are involved that can destroy devices.  There's no way I can be sure there won't be high frequency components on a waveform, generally.  That's one of the reasons why I appreciated that discussion.  That said, we generally get by on mediocre equipment, helped by a knowledge of its limitations.  So thanks!
I am no expert on power converters, but I understand that they mostly operate in the tens of Kilohertz range to a few 100's Kilohertz. Only very high-end stuff into a few Megahertz. I know that internally rise-times can and will be very short and that they generate all kinds of nasty harmonics into the tens of Megahertz (after all I can hear those nasty signals on my HF transceivers) but I think you can safely assume that frequency components > 100 MHz in these devices are way lower than the signals you are analyzing, so if these alias back the amplitude is probably way below the threshold of what is visible (the ADC is only 8 bits). And if in doubt use only one channel and Fnyquist moves up to 500 MHz. If you see no change in the signal then aliasing is no problem.
And if you see ristimes of individual pulse in the order of 3.5 ns (for a 100 MHz scope this as abt the minimum rise time you can see) than you know you have to be careful how to interpret these....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 08, 2014, 04:33:28 pm

I am no expert on power converters, but I understand that they mostly operate in the tens of Kilohertz range to a few 100's Kilohertz. Only very high-end stuff into a few Megahertz. I know that internally rise-times can and will be very short and that they generate all kinds of nasty harmonics into the tens of Megahertz (after all I can hear those nasty signals on my HF transceivers) but I think you can safely assume that frequency components > 100 MHz in these devices are way lower than the signals you are analyzing, so if these alias back the amplitude is probably way below the threshold of what is visible (the ADC is only 8 bits). And if in doubt use only one channel and Fnyquist moves up to 500 MHz. If you see no change in the signal then aliasing is no problem.
And if you see ristimes of individual pulse in the order of 3.5 ns (for a 100 MHz scope this as abt the minimum rise time you can see) than you know you have to be careful how to interpret these....

All your assumptions are true about the power converters.  I play with everything from servo and AC motor drives, to phase-shift SCR controllers to SCR type inverters of various designs to IGBT type inverters, generally very high power from 20 KW up to 1 MW with frequencies up to 100 KHz or so.  Oh, and some tube type oscillators up to 150 KW, 450 KHz (you don't measure anything directly in that circuit if you know what's good for you).  My new toy will be a very nice upgrade for me.  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 08, 2014, 05:12:01 pm
Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.

Jim Williams designed and built a more demanding differential probe which is documented started at page 72 of Linear Technology application note 65.  The custom differential input amplifier he designed fits within your $40 budget but would need some changes for DC operation.

"Measuring voltage of floating lamp circuits requires a nearly heroic effort."

I'll say it does!  Good thing the things I play with are steam-powered by comparison.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 08, 2014, 05:35:12 pm
Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.

Jim Williams designed and built a more demanding differential probe which is documented started at page 72 of Linear Technology application note 65.  The custom differential input amplifier he designed fits within your $40 budget but would need some changes for DC operation.

"Measuring voltage of floating lamp circuits requires a nearly heroic effort."

I'll say it does!  Good thing the things I play with are steam-powered by comparison.

There are a number of gems in that application note:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on November 08, 2014, 10:09:47 pm
I play with everything from servo and AC motor drives, to phase-shift SCR controllers to SCR type inverters of various designs to IGBT type inverters, generally very high power from 20 KW up to 1 MW with frequencies up to 100 KHz or so.  Oh, and some tube type oscillators up to 150 KW, 450 KHz (you don't measure anything directly in that circuit if you know what's good for you).  My new toy will be a very nice upgrade for me.  Thanks.
Hmm it looks like aliasing should be way down on your list of worries  :o If you must play with your life at least use tools that provide a minimum amount of safety.
When I was abt 15 yo I built quite a few amplifiers and (FM) transmitters with tubes. But I got zapped so many times that I decided this was not for me (too sloppy / careless I suppose). Now if I blow something up I want to be sure it is not me  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 08, 2014, 10:29:45 pm
So I decided to get this scope based on various YT reviews, recommendations in my thread (I am the looking-for-a-sub-$475-dso-but-lost-in-what-to-choose dude), and what I've read in this thread (yes, I've read all of it! Most of it which extremely educational too).

I am going to buy from tequipment and take advantage of the eevblog discount but also I've heard of them having a student discount, and luckily I am still a student. Using my .edu email doesn't seem to change anything for this scope, but it does for a few others (siglent for example). Anyone know if the student discount applies only for certain brands/scopes? From what I understand 14 were unsold from their batch they are getting today or tomorrow with the next batch being a few weeks from now, so I am eager to order this ASAP.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on November 08, 2014, 10:48:03 pm
I am going to buy from tequipment and take advantage of the eevblog discount but also I've heard of them having a student discount, and luckily I am still a student. Using my .edu email doesn't seem to change anything for this scope, but it does for a few others (siglent for example). Anyone know if the student discount applies only for certain brands/scopes? From what I understand 14 were unsold from their batch they are getting today or tomorrow with the next batch being a few weeks from now, so I am eager to order this ASAP.

If you look at their education site techedu.com (http://www.techedu.com/Rigol/Digital-Oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z-Bandwidth-50-Mhz (http://www.techedu.com/Rigol/Digital-Oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z-Bandwidth-50-Mhz)) they don't seem to be offering a student discount on this model.  However, you could place the order with the EEVblog discount and then chat with them Monday to see if they will give you an additional student discount.  It never hurts to ask.

If you have a Discover card, be sure to register for the current 5% cashback promotion and use that to buy the scope.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dave3533 on November 08, 2014, 11:24:24 pm

I am going to buy from tequipment and take advantage of the eevblog discount but also I've heard of them having a student discount, and luckily I am still a student. Using my .edu email doesn't seem to change anything for this scope

Per my discussions with TEquipment support, the EEVBLOG discount > student discount, mainly due to the free shipping.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 08, 2014, 11:29:06 pm
Per my discussions with TEquipment support, the EEVBLOG discount > student discount, mainly due to the free shipping.

Forgive me if this is a foolish question, but how can I actually apply the code? I only see the ability to request a quote, so I assume I would get a price with the discount by monday which would likely mean I get put into the next batch. Is there any way for that code to be applied without waiting till Monday? If not, what are y'all thoughts on ordering now and then calling them on monday asking if they can apply the discount after purchase?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on November 09, 2014, 12:13:11 am
Forgive me if this is a foolish question, but how can I actually apply the code? I only see the ability to request a quote, so I assume I would get a price with the discount by monday which would likely mean I get put into the next batch. Is there any way for that code to be applied without waiting till Monday? If not, what are y'all thoughts on ordering now and then calling them on monday asking if they can apply the discount after purchase?
When you get to the payment section, there's a spot where you can enter codes (enter in the shipping and billing addresses, hit continue in green, and it's on the next page).

Sent a PM regarding codes, so check your messages (they've requested we not post their discount codes).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 09, 2014, 01:31:09 am
Thanks nanofrog and everyone else for all your help! You all are a really awesome and helpful bunch.  :-+

So I just ordered today and had 0$ tax, 0$ shipping, the AC high voltage sensor, and of course the scope, for $375. Based on PM's, I decided to go against the student discount of 5% since it's less beneficial than the eevblog discount. Hopefully I am in the current batch and won't have to wait like 3 weeks for teq to get their next shipment.  :P
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 09, 2014, 07:20:11 am
So I just ordered today and had 0$ tax, 0$ shipping, the AC high voltage sensor, and of course the scope, for $375.

AC high voltage sensor?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on November 09, 2014, 07:37:28 am
I think he means the voltage detector that they include for free.
http://www.tequipment.net/SantronicsAC-EZ.html (http://www.tequipment.net/SantronicsAC-EZ.html)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hochopeper on November 10, 2014, 03:53:22 am
I have one on order from Emona here in Australia, has anyone else? If so have you received it? It should be close.

Ordered in September, told 4 weeks, rang when I didn't hear anything, told another 4 weeks which means around the end of november. Not getting my hopes up that it will be here by then.


Odd. I ordered 1 Oct, was told mid October that Emona were expecting stock around 10th Nov. I nagged them this morning and got an email back saying that stock arrived and they were going to post mine within 24hours.  A friend ordered a week or so before me and his arrived from Emona late last week.


Happy days!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 11, 2014, 04:15:13 pm
For those of you who are looking for where to buy your scope, Teq said
Quote
we have another 95 units arriving in the next week or so therefore your order should be included with that batch of shipments to go out.
so there ya go.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on November 11, 2014, 10:39:21 pm
For those who don't follow Dave's tweets, he is working on a DS1054Z review :-+

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 12, 2014, 03:58:09 am
Mine's waiting for me to pick it up from Emona tomorrow morning!

Poor old BWD is going to have company on the shelf.   ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 12, 2014, 05:22:43 am
Got mine today from Tequipment. The scope is awesome.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 12, 2014, 09:35:44 am
Unfortunately, I am still yet to order one and am trying desperately to justify the purchase, the outlay is no issue and I can claim it as a  business asset. I just have way too many gadget's and most of which are hardly ever used.

My go to scope is still a Tek TDS-1002 but it's all I've ever needed, really the only justification I have is the knowledge that may be gained in using a current day scope with a few new features.

My TEK has an error log which also show's boot up's was 67 now is 4 after I accessed the service menu recently, do the Rigols a have similar thing, couldn't see it in the manual.

Anyway,
I do have one more question someone may know this off hand, can the supplied firmware be backed up, exported or even downloaded should a person wish to restore the units original configuration. Just in case there was an issue during the warranty period ( 3 years ). Could the " enhancement of options " be reversed.

Many Thanks

Muttley
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 12, 2014, 03:54:49 pm
I just got an e-mail from TEquipment, my 1054z is shipping today instead of next week. WoooHooo :clap:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fcsteve777 on November 12, 2014, 04:03:58 pm
I just recieved the same email! :scared:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 12, 2014, 04:46:11 pm
Don't go to the website, it shows shipping of 12/31/2014......
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mikepa on November 12, 2014, 08:20:06 pm
I received the shipping today email .. then an hour later shipping 12/31 !!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on November 12, 2014, 09:36:27 pm
I just got an e-mail from TEquipment, my 1054z is shipping today instead of next week. WoooHooo :clap:
Got the same email, but mine won't actually ship until Friday the 14th due to the single shipment to keep the free shipping.

I can't see spending an extra $9.08 just to ship a few soldering tips, so I'll deal with waiting the extra 4 calendar days.  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poida_pie on November 13, 2014, 01:11:38 am
For those of us in AUS, www.eyou.com.au (http://www.eyou.com.au)  has stock of the DS1054Z and can ship immediately.
I just bought one today, cost was $439 + GST and freight.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 13, 2014, 08:07:03 am
Picked up my Rigol at lunchtime. A$482.90 inc GST from Emona Brisbane.

Bang for buck is quite amazing. Fired it up and checked the channels so far.

For anyone visiting Emona in Brissy... They have a single office in the back corner of a Honda motorbike dealership at 1019 Ipswich Road, Moorooka. No street signage, nothing.

A more unlikely place I have never picked up a new piece of test gear from!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 13, 2014, 11:09:44 am
OMG how bad is Rigol's software for the DS1054Z (and others)?  |O
UltraVision driver is buggy and bloated.
UltraScope doesn't even come on the CD included!, and when I install it I can't even find it  :-BROKE
 :rant:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on November 13, 2014, 12:11:34 pm
Picked up my Rigol at lunchtime. A$482.90 inc GST from Emona Brisbane.

Bang for buck is quite amazing. Fired it up and checked the channels so far.

For anyone visiting Emona in Brissy... They have a single office in the back corner of a Honda motorbike dealership at 1019 Ipswich Road, Moorooka. No street signage, nothing.

A more unlikely place I have never picked up a new piece of test gear from!
Sounds assuring if you buy from him ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on November 13, 2014, 12:51:00 pm
OMG how bad is Rigol's software for the DS1054Z (and others)?  |O
UltraVision driver is buggy and bloated.
UltraScope doesn't even come on the CD included!, and when I install it I can't even find it  :-BROKE
 :rant:

I actually had zero problems with installing it. It is not very useful though, just shows whats on the scope, like read-only...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: oaliey on November 13, 2014, 03:41:21 pm
There was a note on the outside of my box that I got from emona telling me to download everything from the national instruments website. They must already be aware that the included CD contains buggy software and drivers

edit: Just re-read the note, it seems it only asks you to download the drivers. Here is the included text:
edit2: Unsurprisingly the driver file is not the first result, I believe this is a direct link to currently most recent driver: NI-VISA 5.4.1 (http://www.ni.com/download/ni-visa-5.4.1/4626/en/)

IMPORTANT NOTICE!
USB drivers for Rigol Oscilloscopes, Function Generators and Spectrum Analyzers

In order to utilize your Rigol unit with the Ultrascope, UltraStation, UltraSpectrum or Ultra Signal Studio software, you will need to download the appropriate NI VISA USB drivers for your oscilloscope from the National Instruments web site:

After the computer has been rebooted, you can connect your oscilloscope to the PC via USB and switch on your oscilloscope. Your PC should automatically detect your scope and install the appropriate driver files.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Nonorthogonal on November 13, 2014, 07:59:56 pm
Here's a website for those of you who just want to take screenshots and issue SCPI commands. This is all I do from Windows so this 3rd party solution is terrific.

http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkL on November 13, 2014, 10:18:13 pm
Got an email from Tequipment that my DS1054Z is shipping yesterday, Oct 12!

But wait, in the same email, the free gift AC detector isn't shipping until tomorrow, Oct 14.  And the order is by default marked as "ship complete".  So that's holding up the shipment.

Doh!  Thanks for the free gift!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 13, 2014, 11:00:09 pm
Got an email from Tequipment that my DS1054Z is shipping yesterday, Oct 12!

Are they shipping it via TARDIS?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkL on November 13, 2014, 11:08:15 pm
Got an email from Tequipment that my DS1054Z is shipping yesterday, Oct 12!

Are they shipping it via TARDIS?

If that's the case, they could ship me something really great from the future like a 100 channel scope with brain link-up.

But I'm guessing they only discovered today they ran out of the freebies.  Oops.

Quote
From: orderstatus@Tequipment.NET
Subject: Tequipment.NET OrderStatus Update - Order# xxxxx
Date: 13 Nov 2014 15:50:31 -0500

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Qty  Product Name                      Status                                                     
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 1  RIGOLDS1054Z
       50 MHz Digital Oscilloscope wi    1 To Be Shipped On 11/12/2014*

 1  SANTRONICSAC-EZ
       AC Voltage Sensor - 50-1000 VA    1 To Be Shipped On 11/14/2014*  (Old Estimate: 11/11/2014)

* Your order is marked "Ship Complete Only"
  Partial shipments available upon request for an additional fee per shipment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 13, 2014, 11:49:29 pm
Quality - I have been impressed with the way the Rigol comes as a package here in Australia. For those not aware -

The unit was double boxed, 2ply cardboard on the outside, 3ply on the inside box with foam inserts at either end.
A quickstart guide in paper - not the "Here is the CD manual, go find a PC to read it on".
Four probes - they could have skimped here and given two probes and go find the other two yourself.
A real Australian IEC power lead, with finger guards on the pins.
USB Cable.
CD with software Dave has had a run-in with this, I haven't tried it yet.
The little note on the outside about the NI drivers that Oaliey pointed out above (Nice support Emona :-+)

Very nice Emona and Rigol!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on November 14, 2014, 12:32:36 am
Got an email from Tequipment that my DS1054Z is shipping yesterday, Oct 12!

But wait, in the same email, the free gift AC detector isn't shipping until tomorrow, Oct 14.  And the order is by default marked as "ship complete".  So that's holding up the shipment.

Doh!  Thanks for the free gift!
Same here.

Seems my order has primarily been held up by some Weller soldering iron tips I ordered that TEquipment isn't stocking.  :-// Delay on the Weller crap they had to wait on apparently has caused the free gift to run out to get the rest of mine shipped today (rest of the order has 11/13 listed as it's estimated ship date).  |O

Funnily enough, the 2x tips they had in stock, they sent out yesterday, and got the tracking info today.  :wtf: So are they going to send out 3x packages or make we wait even longer to toss in the free gift?  :-//  :rant:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: John South on November 14, 2014, 01:48:26 am
Hi - Just a quick note on Ultrascope for the "Z" series scopes. This uses UltraSigma so you have to install this first then Ultrascope (downloadable from rigolna.com) .

It is an early version and functions differently than Ultrascope for DS1000E products. 

To access it you run UltraSigma which should then pick up the DS "Z" connected. Right click on this and you will see a menu with Ultrascope .
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 14, 2014, 03:20:41 am
The scope is very noisy to my taste. Anyone knows a quieter replacement fan or at least dimensions of the mounting holes?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on November 14, 2014, 03:28:28 am
What is the latest firmware for the 1000z? And where can you get it? 

I hate the way they are so dogey with getting the latest updates.   
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on November 14, 2014, 03:39:13 am
What is the latest firmware for the 1000z? And where can you get it? 

I hate the way they are so dogey with getting the latest updates.
According to the Firmware Upgrade Request (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0002/1/1579:p-000d/-/%7B%7BEnv.SrcId%7D%7D/%7B%7BEnv.RecId%7D%7D/index.htm/) page on their US website, the latest firmware for the DS/MSO1000Z/-S family is 00.04.01 as of the 25th of August, 2014.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 14, 2014, 03:54:41 am
The scope is very noisy to my taste. Anyone knows a quieter replacement fan or at least dimensions of the mounting holes?

The fan is 50x50x15mm.

Further info here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/recommendations-for-replacement-fans-for-mso1074z/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/recommendations-for-replacement-fans-for-mso1074z/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 14, 2014, 04:00:34 am
OMG how bad is Rigol's software for the DS1054Z (and others)?  |O
UltraVision driver is buggy and bloated.
UltraScope doesn't even come on the CD included!, and when I install it I can't even find it  :-BROKE
 :rant:

Do you have one with the software?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 14, 2014, 05:26:19 am
So support said that mine will get shipped out next or next next week, but, lo and behold, it shipped out today! And the best part? It should get here tomorrow (20 ish hours at most)! So, well, that was a rather pleasant surprise  :-+

But, has anyone updated the firmware to the most recent one and got the upgrade hack to work?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 14, 2014, 05:28:22 am
It will come with the current firmware, and yes, the 'hack' will still work.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Micael on November 14, 2014, 07:40:19 am
Quality - I have been impressed with the way the Rigol comes as a package here in Australia. For those not aware -

The unit was double boxed, 2ply cardboard on the outside, 3ply on the inside box with foam inserts at either end.
A quickstart guide in paper - not the "Here is the CD manual, go find a PC to read it on".
Four probes - they could have skimped here and given two probes and go find the other two yourself.
A real Australian IEC power lead, with finger guards on the pins.
USB Cable.
CD with software Dave has had a run-in with this, I haven't tried it yet.
The little note on the outside about the NI drivers that Oaliey pointed out above (Nice support Emona :-+)

Very nice Emona and Rigol!

My DP832 also comes packaged like that, so I assume that's how they generally pack their products, which is pretty good, considering how their products are in the lower end price wise.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TMM on November 14, 2014, 10:27:13 am
Received mine today from Emona. All options installed except 500uV thanks to Riglol :-+

Drivers and software works fine for me (on Win7 64bit). Bloated maybe, but work flawlessly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xnaron on November 14, 2014, 03:47:52 pm
Jitter problems!  Hopefully these problems can be fixed in firmware.  Might want to hold off on buying these scopes until we find out if this is a hardware or firmware issue. Too late for me though :(


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcOdzFaIYNE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcOdzFaIYNE)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/)


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MadDog on November 14, 2014, 03:56:47 pm
I have checked my MSO1104Z: Problems with DC Coupling and heavy problems witch AC Coupling.
Fortunately I'm still within the 30 days money back guarantee. So I'll send this thing back.
I don't trust that I'll get a fix by a chinese company. If they solve the problem I can buy a new one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xnaron on November 14, 2014, 03:58:48 pm
I have checked my MSO1104Z: Problems with DC Coupling and heavy problems witch AC Coupling.
Fortunately I'm still within the 30 days money back guarantee. So I'll send this thing back.
I don't trust that I'll get a fix by a chinese company. If they solve the problem I can buy a new one.

Good plan  I think the others who bought here might want to do the same.  That will send a clear message to Rigol to fix it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MadDog on November 14, 2014, 04:01:12 pm
Yes, I can live with the problem with DC Coupling, but the behavior with AC Coupling is horrible.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xnaron on November 14, 2014, 04:45:28 pm
I knew I shouldn't have used the shipping box for my 1054z to ship out the 1052e I sold on ebay :(  Hopefully they can fix the issue with firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkL on November 14, 2014, 05:30:19 pm
Ok, TEquipment, you watch this thread.  What is your and Rigol's response on the jitter issues?

I've learned long ago, especially on test gear, that what you see right now is what you're buying.  Never buy anything with bugs you know you can't live with.

If it can't be addressed within your return window I'll be returning my scope, or canceling my order if it hasn't shipped yet.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 14, 2014, 06:47:55 pm
The AC coupling jitter seems to be quite the serious issue.
I really wonder, how nobody noticed this scince the scopes release, considering how friggin popular the scope accually is. Expecially considering that the DS2000 series shows the same issues.
P.S. Do the problems only manifest starting some freqeuncy? Checked with a 10kHz sqare wave  and AC coupling seemed to be working fine. Couldn't really go further than that given that my signal gen (crap 20$ ebay stuff) seemed to introduce a boatload of jitter itself (atleast that's what I was lead to belive by the scopes DC coupling mode).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on November 14, 2014, 07:17:32 pm
Hello!  Like everyone I saw the video today that Dave posted on the scopes. Rigol is looking into the issue right now and will have an update as soon as they investigate.  This issue will get attention.  Rigol is an excellent company to work with and will post an update shortly.
Thanks
Evan
TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBay on November 14, 2014, 07:18:59 pm
Hello!  Like everyone I saw the video today that Dave posted on the scopes. Rigol is looking into the issue right now and will have an update as soon as they investigate.  This issue will get attention.  Rigol is an excellent company to work with and will post an update shortly.
Thanks
Evan
TEquipment.NET

Thanks for posting this here and await the feedback :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on November 14, 2014, 07:25:40 pm
The AC coupling jitter seems to be quite the serious issue.
I really wonder, how nobody noticed this scince the scopes release, considering how friggin popular the scope accually is. Expecially considering that the DS2000 series shows the same issues.
I rarely use AC coupling but I had in the past using my DS2072

Here is on a pulse trigger
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/converting-15khz-analog-rgb-to-digital/?action=dlattach;attach=97039;image)

And here on an edge trigger

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/converting-15khz-analog-rgb-to-digital/?action=dlattach;attach=97035;image)

Granted, they are only 15KHz vertical sync but I could zoom in to particular horizontal lines at 5us divisions:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/converting-15khz-analog-rgb-to-digital/?action=dlattach;attach=97047;image)

Then again I haven't upgraded my firmware for almost a year. (i.e. no CAN bus decoding)

I'll try to run some tests later on at home. But I didn't find any jitter on either AC or DC coupling.

Here it was at 10ns DC coupling edge trigger 24.15 MHz signal.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/crystal-oscillator-with-logic-gates-implemented-on-a-psoc-chip-possible/?action=dlattach;attach=113593;image)

I wonder if the problem was introduced later or I was just lucky to never have found the jitter since I have my scope (about 10 months I believe)

Edit: but those AC frames are stopped captures but I "think" I did look at them free running as well and no jitter but I will have to try again to make sure.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dr.diesel on November 14, 2014, 07:27:46 pm


Quote from: tequipment on Today at 04:17:32 PM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=36920.msg550426#msg550426)
Rigol is an excellent company to work with and will post an update shortly.



First time I've ever heard this.  Rigol has been completely ignoring the 4000 series issues (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 14, 2014, 08:29:26 pm
The AC coupling jitter seems to be quite the serious issue.
I really wonder, how nobody noticed this scince the scopes release, considering how friggin popular the scope accually is. Expecially considering that the DS2000 series shows the same issues.

I rarely use AC coupling but I had in the past using my DS2072

You pictures show AC vertical coupling but the problem is with AC trigger coupling which confusingly the Rigols do not display.

Quote
I wonder if the problem was introduced later or I was just lucky to never have found the jitter since I have my scope (about 10 months I believe)

The jitter the other oscilloscopes are showing is in the nanosecond to 10s of nanosecond range which is significant enough to be a real problem but not something which would be seen at slower time/div settings; at 5us/div it should not be visible.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 14, 2014, 08:37:16 pm
Just got my scope in less than 24 hours from when it was shipped from teq, I am nothing short of thrilled! A friend bought a Siglent scope at the same time as me and just got his yesterday (though his shipped out before yesterday if I recall). You guys at teq are awesome!

I didn't notice anything about the jitter yet though, but I can't test it for now untill I get my bench cleaned up.

(http://i.imgur.com/Dh99jy0l.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/Dh99jy0.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/Dh99jy0.jpg)

On an unrelated note, I got my boards back from OSH! The drill registration seems alarmingly off in places though, so I will have to check it under my microscope tomorrow.

(http://i.imgur.com/iV1dVQrl.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/iV1dVQr.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/iV1dVQr.jpg)

Edit: Apologies about the terribly over sized pictures. Added them as links instead of in lined images.
Edit 2: Added smaller inlined images.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Doridian on November 15, 2014, 05:08:09 am
Does anyone know how I would go about obtaining a DS1054Z in Germany? Is it available anywhere right now?
All I checked have really weird delivery times specified. Some say a week, then on request say 3. Others say more than 3 weeks...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on November 15, 2014, 05:15:06 am
>I'll try to run some tests later on at home. But I didn't find any jitter on either AC or DC coupling.

NOTE: This jitter issue has to do with the AC TRIGGERING, and NOT regular AC Input COUPLING.

I use AC Coupling all the time when working with audio or rf signals,  but I have never used the AC Triggering function.


I think lots of people are thinking this jitter issue has to do with the very common function of switching your input to the AC coupling mode that is very common to use, and that is incorrect.  This happens only if you use the AC Triggering feature, which personally I am not totally sure when you would even need to use.

I just wanted to make sure everyone understood the difference.  It appears that lots of people are getting the impression about this jitter that Dave was talking about, was an issue with just using AC input coupling and it is not.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 15, 2014, 06:42:12 am
Thanks for clearing that up, now i kinda get why it wasn't noticed until now. Not sure if I would ever have a use for the AC triggering function anyway, didn't even realise the scope had such a feature.  :phew:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on November 15, 2014, 07:28:22 am
Does anyone know how I would go about obtaining a DS1054Z in Germany? Is it available anywhere right now?
All I checked have really weird delivery times specified. Some say a week, then on request say 3. Others say more than 3 weeks...

Tequipment is 6-7 weeks (quoted). I'm guessing that everyone placing orders will be waiting. Even so compared to 30 years ago this is nothing. I wonder what it would have cost in 1985?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBay on November 15, 2014, 09:19:50 am
>I'll try to run some tests later on at home. But I didn't find any jitter on either AC or DC coupling.

NOTE: This jitter issue has to do with the AC TRIGGERING, and NOT regular AC Input COUPLING.

I use AC Coupling all the time when working with audio or rf signals,  but I have never used the AC Triggering function.


I think lots of people are thinking this jitter issue has to do with the very common function of switching your input to the AC coupling mode that is very common to use, and that is incorrect.  This happens only if you use the AC Triggering feature, which personally I am not totally sure when you would even need to use.

I just wanted to make sure everyone understood the difference.  It appears that lots of people are getting the impression about this jitter that Dave was talking about, was an issue with just using AC input coupling and it is not.
You raise a VERY valid point. Watching the icons on the display I see it is indeed the AC Trigger mode selected from the triggering menu. I was testing mine from selecting AC coupling from the input menu. Hence no issue on my DS2702.  The menus are different on the 1000z so didn't notice this at first.

Never used AC triggering before. I Do use AC coupling.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Retep on November 15, 2014, 09:39:17 am
Does anyone know how I would go about obtaining a DS1054Z in Germany? Is it available anywhere right now?
All I checked have really weird delivery times specified. Some say a week, then on request say 3. Others say more than 3 weeks...
Batronix would be the obvious place for you to go to, but as you said they won't be able to deliver it anytime soon. I doubt you find any shop in Germany or the EU for that matter that has these units in stock.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: electr_peter on November 15, 2014, 10:37:13 am
Does anyone know how I would go about obtaining a DS1054Z in Germany? Is it available anywhere right now?
All I checked have really weird delivery times specified. Some say a week, then on request say 3. Others say more than 3 weeks...
Batronix would be the obvious place for you to go to, but as you said they won't be able to deliver it anytime soon. I doubt you find any shop in Germany or the EU for that matter that has these units in stock.
Batronix will have some scopes on December ~8-10.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Doridian on November 16, 2014, 01:02:05 am
Does anyone know how I would go about obtaining a DS1054Z in Germany? Is it available anywhere right now?
All I checked have really weird delivery times specified. Some say a week, then on request say 3. Others say more than 3 weeks...
Batronix would be the obvious place for you to go to, but as you said they won't be able to deliver it anytime soon. I doubt you find any shop in Germany or the EU for that matter that has these units in stock.
Batronix will have some scopes on December ~8-10.

Damnit :( Guess I'll have to wait. Or buy a DS1074Z, but that would be quite a waste of money :/
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 19, 2014, 05:04:40 am
Mine arrived today. Impressive packaging, the UPS gorilla couldn't hurt this. Initial turn-on found all the options were enabled for 36 hours?? Didn't know about that. Calibration date in China was 11/01/2014 per warranty sheet. A very solid feeling piece of equipment.

As I work mainly with RF I was wondering about the bandwidth available.I set up my signal generator to -40dBm and started at 10 MHz. Scope showed RMS level of 47mv. 50 MHz dropped to 39.1mv. 100 MHz down to 29.5mv. So I stretched it out to 400 MHz, down to 5mv. Not a large signal but visible and actually could be usable. The freq counter quit abt 100 MHz. All measurement were taken without changing any settings.

Now I have to start looking for a printed manual, it comes with a quick start guide which is basically useless since what it covers is all intuitive if you've ever used a scope. Plus the front half is in chinese. It's when you start getting into the menus my trouble started. A flow chart would be very nice. Since I deal with RF using an analog scope a lot of the items are greek to me. Maneuvering around in the menus is an exercise in getting lost, at least for me. "Now just where did I see that option to set the probe divide by ratio???" I've seen it twice.  :-//

Overall a very nice piece of equipment but for me the learning curve is going to be steep, at least to use the functions I can use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on November 19, 2014, 05:23:05 am
Use the help button on a given menu and it will tell you what the buttons do on that menu. Press the help menu again to exit from the help mode.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 19, 2014, 05:50:35 am
Quote
"Now just where did I see that option to set the probe divide by ratio???" I've seen it twice.  :-//
Press the active channel button to get that channel's menus on screen.
Then select the appropriate attenuation setting to match your probe.
Set each channel as required.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 19, 2014, 05:53:52 am
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 19, 2014, 06:17:32 am
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???
Not conversent with Rigols, but there should be a "Clear" or similar in the Measure menus
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 19, 2014, 06:53:43 am
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???

You.. basically can't. You can push them off the screen, or remove all of them (sort of), but not individually remove them. At least not via any obvious method I've found.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on November 19, 2014, 07:17:28 am
Now I have to start looking for a printed manual, it comes with a quick start guide which is basically useless since what it covers is all intuitive if you've ever used a scope.
There's a User Manual.pdf available (PM sent).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wyatt Storch on November 20, 2014, 01:18:28 pm
I just got mine yesterday.   :)

There's a user manual on the CD that comes with the unit.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 20, 2014, 03:19:39 pm
Makes sense, I just didn't dig out the CD. Figured it was the PC software, DUH...

 :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Edgar Amalyan on November 21, 2014, 06:33:42 am
I'm guessing the 1054Z is the recommended device to get for a first scope? I could spend more $ if it would be better in the long run for a computer engineering student, as long as it's not some ridiculous Agilent that costs more than 2k. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on November 21, 2014, 06:46:44 am
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???

You.. basically can't. You can push them off the screen, or remove all of them (sort of), but not individually remove them. At least not via any obvious method I've found.

It's not obvious and I think it's a bug but here's how:

1) Measure --> Clear --> All Items

This will take them all off the display but if you turn any one back on the old ones will appear grayed out.  So, don't do that, instead:

2) Turn off the 'scope and turn it back on again.

Now add a measurement item and it will appear all by itself left-justified on the bottom line.

-Katie
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 21, 2014, 06:50:36 am
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???

You.. basically can't. You can push them off the screen, or remove all of them (sort of), but not individually remove them. At least not via any obvious method I've found.

It's not obvious and I think it's a bug but here's how:

1) Measure --> Clear --> All Items

This will take them all off the display but if you turn any one back on the old ones will appear grayed out.

That would be the 'sort of' bit, yes.

Quote
So, don't do that, instead:

2) Turn off the 'scope and turn it back on again.

Now add a measurement item and it will appear all by itself left-justified on the bottom line.

-Katie

Because power cycling is obviously the right way to do things..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 21, 2014, 07:02:37 am
Because power cycling is obviously the right way to do things..
NO
If you Clear them they should be gone. Full Stop.
If power cycling is needed it is indeed a BUG
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 21, 2014, 07:03:50 am
Because power cycling is obviously the right way to do things..
NO
If you Clear them they should be gone. Full Stop.
If power cycling is needed it is indeed a BUG

Sorry, is your sarcasmometer broken?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 21, 2014, 07:30:31 am
Because power cycling is obviously the right way to do things..
NO
If you Clear them they should be gone. Full Stop.
If power cycling is needed it is indeed a BUG

Sorry, is your sarcasmometer broken?
Fixed now thanks....but not the bug.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on November 21, 2014, 12:55:04 pm
I'm guessing the 1054Z is the recommended device to get for a first scope? I could spend more $ if it would be better in the long run for a computer engineering student, as long as it's not some ridiculous Agilent that costs more than 2k.
The 1054Z currently offers the best 'bang per buck' by a wide margin - although you may want to wait for Dave's review, which is in the pipeline.

If you don't have specific requirements such as greater bandwidth, spending a lot of money now on capabilities you may never need would be a waste of money - particularly since DSO capabilities are still advancing rapidly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hak8orr on November 22, 2014, 11:08:41 am
(http://i.imgur.com/LufJWORl.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/LufJWOR.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/LufJWOR.jpg)

Just got the scope last week and so far have been totally thrilled with it. I still consider myself a newbie with electronics (Dave's AC trigger coupling and how to measure voltage rails with AC input coupling were mind blowing), but this scope has been a monsterous step up from my tek 2213A scope. Just wanted to thank all of you for helping me out in my previous thread, answering my questions here, and the PM's with the eevblog discount code!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on November 22, 2014, 06:41:21 pm
Dave's AC trigger coupling and how to measure voltage rails with AC input coupling were mind blowing

You clearly did not use the analog enough ;p
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 22, 2014, 08:00:32 pm
Dave's AC trigger coupling and how to measure voltage rails with AC input coupling were mind blowing.

You clearly did not use the analog enough ;p

The 2213A does not even support AC coupled internal triggering because it has peak-to-peak triggering which is superior. :)

I miss peak-to-peak triggering.  It was replaced with automatic level triggering which is slower.  Based on their documentation, I do not think the Rigols support either.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 23, 2014, 01:05:44 am
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???

You.. basically can't. You can push them off the screen, or remove all of them (sort of), but not individually remove them. At least not via any obvious method I've found.

It's not obvious and I think it's a bug but here's how:

1) Measure --> Clear --> All Items

This will take them all off the display but if you turn any one back on the old ones will appear grayed out.  So, don't do that, instead:

2) Turn off the 'scope and turn it back on again.

Now add a measurement item and it will appear all by itself left-justified on the bottom line.

-Katie

There is no bug. Whether you like it or not, it's just a feature Rigol has implemented to try to offer easier access to often-used measurements without having to, for example, page through 4 menus while trying to locate a specific Vertical or Horizontal measurement for a second time in a session.

You delete individual measurements by using Measure -> Clear -> ItemX -> Delete

It will then grey-out that measurement, and you can use  Measure -> Clear -> ItemX -> Recover  to restore it if you want. If you add new measurements, the greyed-out ones will slowly be pushed off screen.

This system means that you can get back quickly to a measurement you previously used during the current session, if you've cleared the screen of the bottom measurements for awhile.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 23, 2014, 01:17:04 am
Okay, one more. Using the measurements settings I can have it measure peak and rms values plus a number of other things. They line up along the bottom edge of the screen. How do you turn them off. Say I have RMS selected but want to turn it of????? Pushing the button again just tells you it's already enabled???

You.. basically can't. You can push them off the screen, or remove all of them (sort of), but not individually remove them. At least not via any obvious method I've found.

It's not obvious and I think it's a bug but here's how:

1) Measure --> Clear --> All Items

This will take them all off the display but if you turn any one back on the old ones will appear grayed out.  So, don't do that, instead:

2) Turn off the 'scope and turn it back on again.

Now add a measurement item and it will appear all by itself left-justified on the bottom line.

-Katie

There is no bug. Whether you like it or not, it's just a feature Rigol has implemented to try to offer easier access to often-used measurements without having to, for example, page through 4 menus while trying to locate a specific Vertical or Horizontal measurement for a second time in a session.

You delete individual measurements by using Measure -> Clear -> ItemX -> Delete

It will then grey-out that measurement, and you can use  Measure -> Clear -> ItemX -> Recover  to restore it if you want. If you add new measurements, the greyed-out ones will slowly be pushed off screen.

This system means that you can get back quickly to a measurement you previously used during the current session, if you've cleared the screen of the bottom measurements for awhile.

Sorry, but that's stupid.

If I wanted to hide the measurements, I'd pick an option called 'hide measurements'. Not 'clear' which for some reason actually means 'leave all the text there just change the colour and don't display a value'.

It's an utterly crap bit of 'UI', not a feature.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 23, 2014, 02:02:05 am
Sorry, but that's stupid.

If I wanted to hide the measurements, I'd pick an option called 'hide measurements'. Not 'clear' which for some reason actually means 'leave all the text there just change the colour and don't display a value'.

It's an utterly crap bit of 'UI', not a feature.

Again, regardless of your well-articulated opinion, it's not a bug.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 23, 2014, 02:02:53 am
Sorry, but that's stupid.

If I wanted to hide the measurements, I'd pick an option called 'hide measurements'. Not 'clear' which for some reason actually means 'leave all the text there just change the colour and don't display a value'.

It's an utterly crap bit of 'UI', not a feature.

Again, regardless of your well-articulated opinion, it's not a bug.

In your opinion.

If not a bug in the scope, a bug in the UI designer's head. It's a daft non-function which may as well be replaced with a single button marked 'hide'.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 23, 2014, 02:09:36 am
In your opinion.

If not a bug in the scope, a bug in the UI designer's head.

In your opinion.

BTW, the DS2000 has the same feature, except on the DS2000, the measurement actually fully disappears (not greyed-out), although you can still recover it by using  Measure -> Clear -> ItemX -> Recover. The problem is, after awhile, you can't remember what the measurement was anymore, so the recover feature becomes less useful. I prefer the implementation on the DS1000Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on November 23, 2014, 02:12:44 am
I don't find the UI for that confusing at all in my DS2000 series.

So not a bug (in my opinion)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 23, 2014, 02:13:08 am
With this implementation you may as well just leave it turned on..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 23, 2014, 06:34:04 am
Why not just suggest they do it the most logical way to me. One push turns on a measurement. Next push turns it off. Push once read the RMS Value, push again to turn it off. How hard can that be to do? Spoken from the viewpoint of a non-software writer.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 23, 2014, 06:59:13 am
Why not just suggest they do it the most logical way to me. One push turns on a measurement. Next push turns it off. Push once read the RMS Value, push again to turn it off. How hard can that be to do? Spoken from the viewpoint of a non-software writer.

Again, some of the measurements are 4 menus away. That means you have to wade through to the precise measurement again to turn it off / on.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 23, 2014, 03:17:30 pm
Pretty sure there are a lot of cases when you just want to see a measurment value of a signal and afterwards you don't need it. In that case one would just push to turn it on, and push it again after a second to turn it back off. So yeah, that would be kinda nice.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 23, 2014, 04:35:01 pm
Pretty sure there are a lot of cases when you just want to see a measurment value of a signal and afterwards you don't need it. In that case one would just push to turn it on, and push it again after a second to turn it back off. So yeah, that would be kinda nice.

I certainly agree that would be handy - but I'd prefer it as an added behavior, as opposed to replacing the Delete/Recover feature.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 23, 2014, 09:17:26 pm
That's true. I never suggested it to replace the current system, just think it would be a nice addition.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 24, 2014, 01:55:28 pm
The earliest Tektronix DSOs with automatic measurements have a similar problem with the user interface although all of their measurements are accessible from one menu.  In order to replace or remove a measurement, the identical measurement has to be selected from the menu using cursor keys (and no up key!), turned off, and then another may be added to the end of the list.  This made sense since they had a very limited number of soft keys.  I do not remember how their later DSOs with measurements distributed across multiple menus handled this.

I would prefer some way to highlight the existing measurement instead of going through the menus to selecting it again.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Chryseus on November 24, 2014, 03:00:06 pm
Got an email from Batronix:

Quote from: Batronix
On 21st October you have ordered a Rigol DS1054Z.

Herewith, we would like to inform you that your requested device is not available yet.

At the moment, we are waiting on two deliveries from Rigol for this device. The estimated time of arrival for the first delivery lies between December 8th - 12th. The second delivery approximately at the end of January.

Due to your position in our waiting list, you will receive a device from the first delivery.

We are apologising for this delay. The demand for this devise is unexpectedly high. Rigol itself can currently not manufacture as many devises as needed at the moment.

If the time of waiting is too long for you, you are welcome to choose a similar product from this series. We grant you a 8% discount because of the special circumstances.

Best regards,

Thorsten Schliszio

Being in the second delivery would suck.  :phew:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on November 24, 2014, 03:15:14 pm

There is no bug. Whether you like it or not, it's just a feature Rigol has implemented to try to offer easier access to often-used measurements without having to, for example, page through 4 menus while trying to locate a specific Vertical or Horizontal measurement for a second time in a session.


If you're correct and Rigol intended it to work this way than surely power cycling once cleared should not remove all measurements from the display so that they lose their greyed-out status.   I'd say it's a bug one way or another.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 24, 2014, 03:19:10 pm
If you're correct and Rigol intended it to work this way than surely power cycling once cleared should not remove all measurements from the display so that they lose their greyed-out status.   I'd say it's a bug one way or another.

I don't see any bug in the behavior.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 24, 2014, 03:46:55 pm
Quote from: Batronix
We are apologising for this delay. The demand for this devise is unexpectedly high.
Are they seriously suggesting they didn't see this comming? It's probably the best bang-for-buck scope ever made... Can't see any other reason to release the scope at such a price without the intention of turing the whole market upside down.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 24, 2014, 05:25:32 pm
Quote from: Batronix
We are apologising for this delay. The demand for this devise is unexpectedly high.
Are they seriously suggesting they didn't see this comming? It's probably the best bang-for-buck scope ever made... Can't see any other reason to release the scope at such a price without the intention of turing the whole market upside down.

I would expect availability to be impacted if they are expecting to recall oscilloscopes because of serious problems unless they want to pay even more to repair them under warranty.  Or they might sell them anyway knowing that most users will not notice before the warranty expires.

How does the DS1000Z series measure up in bugs-for-buck? :)

Hopefully all of the current DS1000Z issues can be fixed with firmware updates.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 24, 2014, 07:38:47 pm
How does the DS1000Z series measure up in bugs-for-buck? :)
Probably a lot better than most other budget scopes (I'm looking at siglent, hantek, owon etc.). And if your talking about the AC triggering issue: people have been using the DS2000 series scopes for two or three years now (don't remember exact year of it's release) without issues and whining about it. So I'm pretty sure the importance of the bug is severely exaggerated. Sure it's a bit of a nuisance but it sure as hell isn't the worst bug scopes have had.
Comparing the scope to an Agilent or a Tektronix counterpart would be a bit unfair considering the vast price difference, not even taking into account the fact that even they have their own issues.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2014, 08:50:40 pm
How does the DS1000Z series measure up in bugs-for-buck? :)
Probably a lot better than most other budget scopes (I'm looking at siglent, hantek, owon etc.). And if your talking about the AC triggering issue: people have been using the DS2000 series scopes for two or three years now (don't remember exact year of it's release) without issues and whining about it. So I'm pretty sure the importance of the bug is severely exaggerated. Sure it's a bit of a nuisance but it sure as hell isn't the worst bug scopes have had.
Comparing the scope to an Agilent or a Tektronix counterpart would be a bit unfair considering the vast price difference, not even taking into account the fact that even they have their own issues.
So your tolerance to bugs is price related?
For a piece of test equipment......seriously?

People rightly expect these things to be accurate, their designs and projects rely on it.
Looks like one releases "supposedly" completed gear on the market hopeing that many won't or can't recognise its shortcomings....seems like the modern marketing way.  :palm:
The worry is OUR tolerance to this and the ongoing diminishment of OUR expectations of PRECISION equipment.
Statements like Probably a lot better than most other budget scopes (I'm looking at siglent, hantek, owon etc.). This does not help expectations (owners or manufacturers) and is wildly incorrect.

Siglent's SDS2000 series was ALWAYS identified as "a work in progress"....it still is.
But it suffers NO jitter at any timebase, any delay settings, and whether DC or AC .
Siglent have always been proactive and transparent to improve their products and their regular EEVblog participation is proof of this.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on November 24, 2014, 09:05:58 pm
NZ Siglent Distributor...... :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on November 24, 2014, 09:20:37 pm
tautech, could you predict the results of the poll about how many rigol users would know about this if it wasn't for people tinkering with everything.

measuring is not tinkering with everything.

creep is correct, there is a fair amount of exaggeration going on here...

now we have all sorts of bugs
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dso-trigger-position-offset-w-ac-coupled-trggering-ds2000-mso1000/msg557017/#msg557017 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dso-trigger-position-offset-w-ac-coupled-trggering-ds2000-mso1000/msg557017/#msg557017)



but will that prevent me from using the scope?
nope.

perhaps i'll find some more, but...heh....none of these bugs is really "into your face" type of bug...

tell me about alternatives in that price range?
Siglent SDS1102CML ?
memory depth?

also, when did this
Quote
Rigol itself can currently not manufacture as many devises as needed at the moment.
happen last time in the world of dsos?

here's the deal: that scope is excellent value for money even if they never fix any of the bugs reported.
now, how will you prove me wrong?
you'll suggest we all need ac trig and absolute precision when scrolling thru the 'live' waveform?
meh...
i can't even mention the third thing i linked above, it's just too silly....

we should all report these bugs (or better to say emind ourselves of them) when we bump into them while using the scope for a purpose (not just play), then it would all seem a bit different...heh...

again, rigol should correct it, but these are small bugs for most of us.
and others will probaby have a 'proper' ( ;D ) scoep to check against.

Quote
People rightly expect these things to be accurate, their designs and projects rely on it.
i don't expect perfection in any human or any machine humans make.
is there a better scope for 350eur?
see?

bert
Quote
NZ Siglent Distributor......
>:(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Simon on November 24, 2014, 09:38:27 pm
I slightly miss the better quality of my old rigol versus my new 200MHz owon where basically they decided to throw the kitchen sink at it but for quality. It's "auto display" function that is basically the crude equivalent of the auto function that worked perfectly on my rigol is a peice if shit as it slowly and mechanically cycles through all of the settings and it does not even work so it's far easier to do it manually.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2014, 10:02:33 pm
Did I slag Rigol?   NO
Did I question value for money?   NO
Did I offer a comparable product as better?   NO

BTW there are further bugs revealed in the last day or so.

My argument is of the reduction in quality (irrespective of price) of some lower cost test equipment in general. Should we continue to suffer this?
Once upon a time we shunned new gear knowing there WILL be problems in early versions.
This applied to all manner of product; cars, tractors, trucks, chainsaws .......
So it seems there is a much increased tolerance of acceptance of unfinished/incomplete products in the marketplace.  :palm:
Well not from me.  :--
Seriously this is a worrying trend, one I'm sure manufacturers have great delight in exploiting.

Quote
NZ Siglent Distributor
I have never hidden this fact, when I registered here I posted my website link for all to see but it seems that was not enough to keep everybody happy.
Much later I was PM'ed by a Moderator and asked to show my affiliation plainly in my posts.
Out of respect of the Forum I happily complied.
If one cares to look at my contribution you will see the majority has been general electronics related as is my passion for electronics.
If one only knew how many manufacturers/suppliers were members you'd all be shocked.
Not all openly reveal their affiliations.
So frown/angry? Really?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Simon on November 24, 2014, 10:09:46 pm
Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2014, 10:27:32 pm
Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.
Very true, but some don't understand that compromises in design like a 1 Gsa/s ADC shared by 4 channels will result in substandard performance.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on November 24, 2014, 10:35:24 pm

Seriously this is a worrying trend, one I'm sure manufacturers have great delight in exploiting.


If one cares to look at my contribution you will see the majority has been general electronics related as is my passion for electronics.
If one only knew how many manufacturers/suppliers were members you'd all be shocked.


i would just like people to discuss the problems they had with a particular piece of gear, 'politics' aside.
i dunno if we (thus far) saw a report where any rigol bug was a make it or break it type of problem when scoping(?)
i don't see these bugs as such an  important issues.
those who do can try moneyback or simillar strategies....if firmware upadate doesn't fix it etc.

to me it's enough i know about them and i know how they affect measuring.
so i can "compensate" even if they never make new firmware OR if i never apply it even if they make it...

so if anybody asked me what scope to buy at this price range, there still is no issue this is the best-buy at the moment.
we'll know if/when somebody beats rigol in this field...field they just created with this scope...heh...technology to the people....cheaply  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Creep on November 24, 2014, 11:02:09 pm
Don't know about you guys but I can live with a few bugs as long as I'm aware of their existance and they are not random. As someone before me on this forum used to say: knowladge of the drawbacks of our equipment let's us work around those drawbacks if we keep them in our minds. If I know AC triggering has issues, fine, I just won't use it. If I know turning some option (hopefully not too usefull) on causes a crash (think I heard something like this about a hantek function gen or something simillar), fine, I just won't do it. Most of the time it's a problem only in cases you are not aware of it and don't take it into account.
Ofcourse that's just my take on it as an EE student, pretty sure professional engineers have different opinion on the matter and that's why they use agilent and tektronix products.
I totally understand tautech's mindset and point of view, but atleast for me if I had to choose between the current rigol scope (DS1054Z) as it is or one that has gone through intense QC and found and fixed most of the bugs but because of that increased the price by say 200 EUR, I would chose the former option without much thought.
It's a great scope for the beginners and they can usually live with the mall details and faults. The more advanced users that are also more picky can just look for higher class equipment.
I'm all for increased software quality as long as it doesn't result in a substantial increase in price, otherwise there is no point of the whole hobby segment and people may as well get the non-china branded equipment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on November 24, 2014, 11:25:07 pm
Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.
Very true, but some don't understand that compromises in design like a 1 Gsa/s ADC shared by 4 channels will result in substandard performance.
Substandard compared with what? A 1 Gsa/s ADC is the standard and four channels is twice the standard at this price point and some way above it. Building any piece of test gear involves compromises, and knowing the limitations of your equipment is essential at any level.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2014, 11:35:50 pm
Fact is that development and manufacturing costs have come down on things like oscilloscopes so everyone wants one but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes. On the whole you get about what you pay for.
Very true, but some don't understand that compromises in design like a 1 Gsa/s ADC shared by 4 channels will result in substandard performance.
Substandard compared with what? A 1 Gsa/s ADC is the standard and four channels is twice the standard at this price point and some way above it. Building any piece of test gear involves compromises, and knowing the limitations of your equipment is essential at any level.
In the Siglent range for example ONLY the budget/entry level models have less tha 1 Gsa/a ADC's.
As Simon says  :-DD you get what you pay for
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on November 25, 2014, 01:53:37 am
but still cheap R&D gets you errors and mistakes.
Bugs can occur in all R&D regardless of how much money you spend on it and I would expect Rigol to reuse a fair amount of C/VHDL/Verilog between their product lines' FPGAs and SoCs since most features are fundamentally the same regardless of the GUI and PCB layout.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 25, 2014, 01:55:16 am
So, hypothetically - say Rigol can fix the problem with the DZ1054Z by re flashing the firmware but after which you will lose the ability to hack the firmware.

Would you trade off the hackability for a jitter/trigger fix?

All the whinging aside, I think I'd be reasonably happy with my Rigol in its current state.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 25, 2014, 02:25:34 am
So, hypothetically - say Rigol can fix the problem with the DZ1054Z by re flashing the firmware but after which you will lose the ability to hack the firmware

If they wanted to make it unhackable, they would have done so already. I'm pretty sure they make it hackable on purpose.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 25, 2014, 02:27:36 am
So your tolerance to bugs is price related?

Well, yes - for good or bad, that is how most humans think. Tolerance for bugs, manufacturing and feature defects, bad industrial and UI design - those are all things we tend to link to the sticker price.

Quote
Looks like one releases "supposedly" completed gear on the market hopeing that many won't or can't recognise its shortcomings....seems like the modern marketing way.  :palm:

This is certainly true in virtually every market - from cell phones to furniture.

Quote
Siglent's SDS2000 series was ALWAYS identified as "a work in progress"....it still is.

;D  You must be kidding! Is the SDS2000 identified as "a work in progress" in all of the ads listing it for sale in analog or digital media? Even if this was true (which it demonstrably isn't), is that how manufacturers should get around the problem of releasing products too soon (or with possible bugs)? By slapping on a sticker that says, "Work in Progress"?

Quote
But it suffers NO jitter at any timebase, any delay settings, and whether DC or AC .

It suffers a litany of other bugs which are well-documented. It's a matter of subjective opinion as to whether one thinks those bugs are more serious than AC-trigger jitter / offset, etc.

Quote
Siglent have always been proactive and transparent to improve their products and their regular EEVblog participation is proof of this.

Sorry, this does not prove transparency - it just proves the desire to appear transparent (although, granted, it's better than Rigol). In fact, I had questions about possible limitations in terms of the intensity-grading of the SDS2000 a LONG time ago here on the forum - which were never confirmed/addressed by Siglent or any of you Siglent dealers. Once I had my hands on an SDS2000, I confirmed it in a matter of minutes. Now it's known as "a feature in progress".  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on November 25, 2014, 06:15:50 am
So, hypothetically - say Rigol can fix the problem with the DZ1054Z by re flashing the firmware but after which you will lose the ability to hack the firmware

If they wanted to make it unhackable, they would have done so already. I'm pretty sure they make it hackable on purpose.

I know and it's not really what I asked... there seems to be a lot of noise here about how bad Rigol is for having such a bug in their 'scope.

But just say you had to choose? What would you do?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 25, 2014, 06:22:09 am
I personally would leave it as it is right now, nice and "upgraded". For my typical use none of the bugs are a problem. And at that price it already paid for itself in my time that I would otherwise spend debugging problems using  blinking LEDs.

I was not impressed with the fan loudness, so I replaced the fan with a quieter one, voiding the warranty along the way. So no RMA for me, not that I would bother sending it anywhere anyway.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on November 25, 2014, 07:39:38 am
Rigol, Siglent and Hantek all have sub 400 dollar scopes. I wonder what Siglent and Hantek have planned. Price cuts?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: i4004 on November 25, 2014, 09:55:04 am
suicide?  ;D

i already said that i wouldn't upgrade firmware for this, if i'll lose bandwidth...

it is more important than nuances i would probably never even notice....no ac trigger, no trigger point at the end of the universe (  :-DD ) and no need to have perfectly centered sweep....

if you gave me best scope ever, i still don't use these things.
but bandwidth of that best scope?
that i would use!  ;)

i'll repeat again: should be fixed, but even if they don't...no big deal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DavrosTheDalek on November 25, 2014, 01:15:29 pm
Hi all!
Finally gonna pull the trigger and order a 1054z end of the week.
Could somebody please send me the Tequipment eevblog discount code? Very much appreciated!

Thanks,
Davros
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on November 25, 2014, 04:32:25 pm
Careful, the DSA815 Spectrum Analyzer has been made un-hackable from reports on here.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 25, 2014, 04:40:54 pm
Careful, the DSA815 Spectrum Analyzer has been made un-hackable from reports on here.

Haha, unhackable.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rodcastler on November 26, 2014, 09:36:55 pm
Just got mine today. It was intended to replace my DS1102E...... BUT:  I was not convinced right away unfortunately.

I love the features it comes with, lots of interface improvements over the 1102E but it's surprisingly SLOW to refresh any user input.
 
When twisting the knobs to move cursors, or the trigger level or menu navigation, the older 1102E response is instantaneous and at a high frame rate (I'm using wrong terminology all over the place but I hope you get the idea). The new 1054Z is so slow that it becomes VERY frequent to enter wrong commands because you fell short on the selection or went too far. Also, aiming the correct trigger level or a cursor is a pain on this scope only because of the slow response. You can tell from Dave's video when he dials the trigger level.

When using the roll mode, you can easily tell how the line horribly skips pixels (again, can't help but using the FPS terminology to describe this). The 1102E does so much better that I'm not sure if I should even replace it with the new one.

Is there anybody else as annoyed as I am by the user input reaction rate on this scope?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 26, 2014, 10:54:37 pm
When twisting the knobs to move cursors, or the trigger level or menu navigation, the older 1102E response is instantaneous and at a high frame rate (I'm using wrong terminology all over the place but I hope you get the idea). The new 1054Z is so slow that it becomes VERY frequent to enter wrong commands because you fell short on the selection or went too far. Also, aiming the correct trigger level or a cursor is a pain on this scope only because of the slow response. You can tell from Dave's video when he dials the trigger level.

Can you be a bit more specific? Do you mean with a single channel on at any timebase? Or multiple channels? My own subjective opinion is that it's fine with 1 channel on, but gets a bit more sluggish with each new channel (or function) added.

Also, the frame rate is a bit irrelevant. At faster timebases, the DS1054Z is capturing MANY more waveforms per second than your DS1102E, which captures a maximum of something like 80 - 200 wfrm/s - while the DS1054Z is capturing like 1000 - 30000 wfrm/s. This means that even if, for example, the DS1102E is refreshing the screen 50 times a second, each refresh contains 1 or 2 new waveforms - while if the DS1054Z is updating the screen 30 times a second, each update contains 30 - 1000 new waveforms.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rodcastler on November 26, 2014, 11:24:27 pm
Can you be a bit more specific? Do you mean with a single channel on at any timebase? Or multiple channels? My own subjective opinion is that it's fine with 1 channel on, but gets a bit more sluggish with each new channel (or function) added.
Also, the frame rate is a bit irrelevant. At faster timebases, the DS1054Z is capturing MANY more waveforms per second than your DS1102E, which captures a maximum of something like 80 - 200 wfrm/s - while the DS1054Z is capturing like 1000 - 30000 wfrm/s. This means that even if, for example, the DS1102E is refreshing the screen 50 times a second, each refresh contains 1 or 2 new waveforms - while if the DS1054Z is updating the screen 30 times a second, each update contains 30 - 1000 new waveforms.

I'm testing with a single-channel on any time base. And I'm sure the scope is capturing fine. My complaint is mostly around user interface speed. I also didn't like the smoothness at which the line is plotted in roll mode (the delay effect gets terrible when adding any math function).

It feels like overall the interface desperately needs either a faster processor or a better firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on November 27, 2014, 12:26:11 am
It feels like overall the interface desperately needs either a faster processor or a better firmware.

Well, I won't argue that it could use a faster processor - but at €300 for 4 channels, intensity-grading, and 30k wfrm/s, I'm not sure Rigol could make much money if they used a faster one. I'm sure every penny on parts is meaningful at that price point.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on November 27, 2014, 08:32:22 pm
Siglent's SDS2000 series was ALWAYS identified as "a work in progress"....it still is.

Where is the WIP sticker located on the SDS2000 units that Siglent is currently selling?   >:D  Hopefully it's on the outside of the box, and not on the unit itself, so one will see it before opening it.  I don't recall Nico ever mentioning one on his?

When I look on the Tequipment web site, I see them for sale, and I see their Specs, but I see no "Work In Progress" that they've been "ALWAYS identified as", per your statement.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bert Camper on November 27, 2014, 09:05:32 pm
I think WIP is a commercial statement, it's probably nowhere to be found.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on November 28, 2014, 06:33:13 am
DS1074Z

Very nice Z-axis modulation.  My old Tek 2465 analog can also do this but it need external Z-axis signal for modulating like this.

Rigol can derive this Z-axis (intensity) modulation directly from really pure sineave from oscilloscope input.

Perhaps next what I see is that this new era magic box draws image of chost or  mountain troll  instead of signal under test for just make fun for user. (Guessing Task (puzzle):  where fuck this "intensity modulation like effect" is coming and it appears at many different input signal spot frequencies. (I know answer. And note for noobs who are amazing all "weird" things, this is how oscilloscope naturally works, it is not bug or failure ;) ))

( WIP  ---  or not )
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: seavan on November 28, 2014, 11:40:54 pm
Hi, I have been lurking this forum for a while. Finally decided to buy DS1054Z.

I would very much appreciate if somebody could please send me the Tequipment eevblog discount code!

Thanks, Seavan
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: igorstep on November 29, 2014, 02:45:50 am
Hi, I have been lurking this forum for a while. Finally decided to buy DS1054Z.

I would very much appreciate if somebody could please send me the Tequipment eevblog discount code!

Thanks, Seavan

pm sent
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nyt on November 29, 2014, 09:32:53 am
Hi, I have been lurking this forum for a while. Finally decided to buy DS1054Z.

I would very much appreciate if somebody could please send me the Tequipment eevblog discount code!

Thanks, Seavan

pm sent
Would you please pm me as well?  It would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: igorstep on November 29, 2014, 12:02:42 pm
Hi, I have been lurking this forum for a while. Finally decided to buy DS1054Z.

I would very much appreciate if somebody could please send me the Tequipment eevblog discount code!

Thanks, Seavan

pm sent
Would you please pm me as well?  It would be much appreciated.
pm sent
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jdurango on November 30, 2014, 03:06:30 am
Was about to pull the trigger on a used Tek 475 when I saw this! Can someone please send me the code? Thanks so much! I'm a long-time EEVBlog lurker on Youtube, new forum member....looks great so far...I'm sure I'll be coming here regularly from now on!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: igorstep on November 30, 2014, 06:41:12 am
Was about to pull the trigger on a used Tek 475 when I saw this! Can someone please send me the code? Thanks so much! I'm a long-time EEVBlog lurker on Youtube, new forum member....looks great so far...I'm sure I'll be coming here regularly from now on!
pm sent

btw, discount codes can be found(or asked) here

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on December 01, 2014, 05:12:29 am
Hi, I have been lurking this forum for a while. Finally decided to buy DS1054Z.

I would very much appreciate if somebody could please send me the Tequipment eevblog discount code!

Thanks, Seavan

When I bought mine I asked about the EEV BLOG discount and they gave it to me, no secret code needed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on December 01, 2014, 08:30:18 am
When I bought mine I asked about the EEV BLOG discount and they gave it to me, no secret code needed.
It's needed for web orders.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on December 01, 2014, 08:37:01 am
It's needed for web orders.
Click here and Ask (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/pm/?sa=send;u=690)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on December 01, 2014, 11:26:18 pm
When I bought mine I asked about the EEV BLOG discount and they gave it to me, no secret code needed.
It's needed for web orders.

Naw, chat line,  get a quote, convert to order. No phone needed...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on December 02, 2014, 08:54:13 am
When I bought mine I asked about the EEV BLOG discount and they gave it to me, no secret code needed.
It's needed for web orders.

Naw, chat line,  get a quote, convert to order. No phone needed...
You're assuming the order is placed during normal business hours when there are humans to man chat windows and generate quotes (phones and email too).   :o  :P

FWIW, I prefer the immediateness of web ordering since I like to peruse the clearance items, which are best grabbed ASAP.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Micael on December 02, 2014, 02:48:30 pm
Batronix seems to be sending theirs, at least I got an email today saying that my order was already packed and ready to be sent, going to be a good week since I just got my maynuo m9712 through customs, and a bunch of leads (props to franky for helping with that).

P.S. Should probably say I altered the order to also include an IR thermometer, so there is a chance that what is coming is the IR thermometer only, but very much doubt it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: whipman on December 06, 2014, 07:36:19 pm
Just wondering if anyone ordered the DS1054Z from Tequipment recently? If so, what delivery date were you given? I've been waiting (impatiently!) since mid October. First I was told after January 1st but recieved a recent e-mail stating December 12th. I'm dying to get this in my grubby little paws! Anyone.....?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: igorstep on December 07, 2014, 01:39:47 am
Just wondering if anyone ordered the DS1054Z from Tequipment recently? If so, what delivery date were you given? I've been waiting (impatiently!) since mid October. First I was told after January 1st but recieved a recent e-mail stating December 12th. I'm dying to get this in my grubby little paws! Anyone.....?

i have placed an order on November 26 and order status is "Estimated to Ship: 12/12/2014" =)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Johnny Electron on December 07, 2014, 10:22:21 pm
I ordered November 29th and also have an estimated date of 12/12..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on December 08, 2014, 02:25:55 am
Just to inform owners: as reported by rf-loop in this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/msg563208/#msg563208), the Sin(x)/x switch (in the Acquire menu) that becomes selectable when you have 3 or 4 channels enabled is not, in fact, a switch that turns Sin(x)/x interpolation ON and OFF at all.

Instead, it appears to be a completely mislabeled function that applies some kind of bandwidth-limiting (perhaps 50MHz?) to ALL 4 channels simultaneously, as I demonstrated in some images here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/anomalies-andor-bugs-inbetween-the-rigol-msods1000z-msods2000a-msods4000/msg564529/#msg564529). This seems like it might be Rigol's attempt to address the problem we discussed in-depth earlier in this thread: the fact that the 250MSa/s rate has a Nyquist frequency that is too close to the DSO's 100MHz BW. If this is indeed a 50MHz BW limit - that would move it back to the much more comfortable level of 2.5x. But it only seems to be active when the timebase is between 100 - 5ns/div.

@pa3bca - perhaps you can make another image using that 120MHz sine wave input you used before and "Sin(x)/x OFF"?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JBR48 on December 09, 2014, 01:16:35 pm
Perhaps a stupid question, but I do not get the screenshot via USB to work. I think the problem is that none of my USB sticks are recognized by my Rigol MSO1104Z. If I stick a USB stick in the front panel, nothing happens (no notification on the screen).
Are there any tricks to enable the front USB port?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Michal_S on December 09, 2014, 01:32:22 pm
I didn't have to enable anything. What filesystem do you use on the stick? Try FAT32.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on December 09, 2014, 04:39:49 pm
@pa3bca - perhaps you can make another image using that 120MHz sine wave input you used before and "Sin(x)/x OFF"?
Will do that as soon as I am home tonight (at the office now)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on December 09, 2014, 05:44:14 pm
@pa3bca - perhaps you can make another image using that 120MHz sine wave input you used before and "Sin(x)/x OFF"?
Will do that as soon as I am home tonight (at the office now)
Thanks - but there's actually no need; I asked you to do it once before. Looking back through the previous posts, I found it here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg529751/#msg529751). The funny thing is that we were so focused on explaining the AM caused by the leakage, we didn't even notice that the sin(x)/x interpolation is absolutely NOT turned off  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on December 09, 2014, 06:05:18 pm
Thanks - but there's actually no need; I asked you to do it once before. Looking back through the previous posts, I found it here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg529751/#msg529751). The funny thing is that we were so focused on explaining the AM caused by the leakage, we didn't even notice that the sin(x)/x interpolation is absolutely NOT turned off  ;D
Too late  :)
Here they are together on your screen: 250MS/s, 120 MHz, Sin(x)/x on and off. Only the amplitude changes, the waveform does not... (And notice that the scope thinks the frequency is 125 MHz or 119 MHz)

Sin(x)/x on:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=123664)
Sin(x)/x off:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=123666)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on December 09, 2014, 07:50:10 pm
Here they are together on your screen: 250MS/s, 120 MHz, Sin(x)/x on and off. Only the amplitude changes, the waveform does not... (And notice that the scope thinks the frequency is 125 MHz or 119 MHz)

As I mentioned, it seems to be applying a bandwidth limit on all of the channels simultaneously, but I can't figure out why it only seems to be active when the timebase is in the 100ns - 5ns/div range. If it really is some attempt to help minimize potential aliasing when the maximum sample rate is reduced because of 3/4 channels on, I don't understand why it isn't active at least until 2us/div (the first timebase when the sample rate can drop to 125MSa/s - and linear interpolation - with 3/4 channels) - or all of the time.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jpalicke on December 09, 2014, 11:59:35 pm
Just wondering if anyone ordered the DS1054Z from Tequipment recently? If so, what delivery date were you given? I've been waiting (impatiently!) since mid October. First I was told after January 1st but recieved a recent e-mail stating December 12th. I'm dying to get this in my grubby little paws! Anyone.....?

Same deal here, although I just got an email changing the delivery date BACK to 12/31.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on December 10, 2014, 12:10:20 am
Same deal here, although I just got an email changing the delivery date BACK to 12/31.
As Rigol has announced new FW is coming out, is it better to hold shipments and install the better FW or just ship the back orders???
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: igorstep on December 10, 2014, 12:22:44 am
Just wondering if anyone ordered the DS1054Z from Tequipment recently? If so, what delivery date were you given? I've been waiting (impatiently!) since mid October. First I was told after January 1st but recieved a recent e-mail stating December 12th. I'm dying to get this in my grubby little paws! Anyone.....?

i have placed an order on November 26 and order status is "Estimated to Ship: 12/12/2014" =)

oh, just recieved and email of changing shipping date to 31 december 2014
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 10, 2014, 12:28:49 am
Same deal here, although I just got an email changing the delivery date BACK to 12/31.
As Rigol has announced new FW is coming out, is it better to hold shipments and install the better FW or just ship the back orders???
Plus shipments that are in transit.
They may have to unpack a few days prouduction to do so.
What if their production then goes off site to a wharehouse?
Pull all those units back and re-flash them.....massive job.
Unless the distributors are proactive, it will likely be a while before corrected firmware is received in units ex factory.
Best you ask your supplier directly what version firmware is installed before purchase.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on December 10, 2014, 12:30:05 am
As Rigol has announced new FW is coming out, is it better to hold shipments and install the better FW or just ship the back orders???
Personally, I'd say just ship, and let the customer update the firmware (Rigol should make it easy to download by getting rid of the request form nonsense though, which is easy to do).

Gets units in customers' hands faster, and they avoid problems with warehousing (i.e. insufficient space to hold existing stock to be updated + new production). Easier and faster for everyone involved.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on December 10, 2014, 01:14:44 am
Last month I complained to Rigol about the way the keys worked in the Measurements menu. They turn items on but not off. I received a reply today that making them a toggle has been sent to the factory for possible implementation. Push button on for measurement, push it again to turn it off.

They do listen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: whipman on December 10, 2014, 02:16:00 am
Same here with the updated 12/31 ship date. Aggghh! I wasn't this anxious with my first born child! I say ship 'em too. We'll sort it out later. Hopefully!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David_AVD on December 10, 2014, 02:38:33 am
I bought a DS-1054Z last week and it seems fairly easy to use even though I've never owned a DSO before.

Most of the options I've needed so far have been reasonably intuitive, but I'm sure I'll have to read the manual for some of the more advanced usage.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on December 10, 2014, 03:41:53 am
So I think Rigol is probably correct holding back shipments. Don't ship a defective product.

Having said that there are a great number of these units out there. I'd appreciate a basic information page on the Rigol website. It should contain a method (test method perhaps) to identify the problem and what features are unaffected. When the problem is solved a copy of the firmware or an option to return it to a dealer for repair.

Having every customer call in for a copy of the firmware, having them pay for shipping to a dealer when a simple download would suffice. Is that realistic?

Keep your customers happy.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on December 10, 2014, 04:20:36 am
Most people don't update their firmware unless there is something that they need that was fixed in a later release, so it makes sense that they will hold them to update them if it's a mandatory update.

That been said, people are assuming that's the case just because of some shipment delay, the thing is that we don't know.

As for downloading firmware and installing it yourself, Rigol is pretty good at that, you just have to ask them for it or wait for someone to post the new update in some forum. But unless you want to get burned, wait for others to comment on firmware update experiences before upgrading yours if you have no immediate need for whatever the new firmware addresses.

Case and point upgrading to a version that disables the bootloader with the potential to brick your equipment, I haven't updated min DS2000 for almost a year now and I see no need yet. Eventually I'll evaluate what updates and fixes they been addressed and pick the one with less problems.

A company could have hundreds of QA/QC employees and they might still miss something that hindsight 20/20 would be obvious to test for in the first case.

I mean, Rigol is only a 16 year old company, and for being that young they sure have the right processes in place IMHO, but you can't expect them to have the same level of process sophistication as the bigger players and even those bigger players miss on things often.

Sometimes fast reacting companies don't have stable products, as an example at work we had XP until windows 7 was stable enough and we skipped on vista all together. I will imagine that once windows 8 is stable enough for all our toolchains and requirements we will migrate to that, but it's not mature enough just yet. I like somethings they've done I will adapt to other things I don't like but I know we will eventually migrate unless is a flop like vista was, same with with windows ME.

The point is that running the latest release also means the less tested release.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on December 10, 2014, 05:05:15 am
Nobody has stable products when new. That is true of commercial and consumer products, it's more a matter of what comes back to bite you. Products are always refined while in production, simplifications to increase profit, component changes, firmware.

When caught, fess up explain to your customer and do your best to remedy the situation. If your entire production run is 500 pcs and the gear 100,000.00 per copy talk to the customer directly. That's good business. On the other hand if it's 400 bucks and the production run is in the millions, make a web page. Also good business.

Rigol is involved in an industry where if a company fixes equipment faults their reputation will improve. I also see historically that they do fix their faults, it helps sales.

Now if they where making tv's and dealing with Joe Public. That would be news worthy, it could even be a jitter issue.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: whipman on December 10, 2014, 05:17:14 am
I tend to agree with Pickle on this one. If not a page, at least a paragraph or two about the issue / issues. Additionally, something a little more concrete for retailers to tell their customers who've put up their money and are still waiting with little more the occasional delivery date change e-mail.

While I agree Windows ME, Vista (and lets not forget 98SE another bomb) were surely atrocious, I sure hope Rigol's not dealing with that big a mess! We may never get these on our benches!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jamieson on December 10, 2014, 02:09:25 pm
The DS1054Z was released a few months back -- has it had a FW update yet?   

I ordered mine from TEquipment on 11/18 and also got the email pushing delivery back to 12/31.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on December 10, 2014, 03:43:41 pm
The DS1054Z was released a few months back -- has it had a FW update yet?
Not exactly - they have released beta firmware in response to issues identified by several users and highlighted by Dave. This seems to have serious bugs which will hopefully be resolved prior to an official firmware update.

Take a look at Dave's video and the accompanying forum thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/) for a more exhaustive answer to this question.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on December 10, 2014, 03:45:55 pm
Since the hack sites seem to be disappearing, probably due to Rigol, they may holding off shipment until the hack sites are down.  I guess we'll find out when they finally start shipping again. Or they have a defeat for the hack and want it installed as rapidly as possible and in as many systems.

From what I have read no-one has found a major enough flaw to halt shipment.

 My 2cents worth.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on December 10, 2014, 05:54:42 pm
The DS1054Z was released a few months back -- has it had a FW update yet?   
The DS1054Z may have been released only two or three months ago but it is the same hardware as the DS1074Z/DS1104Z released nearly two years ago. The biggest differences are the software bandwidth limit and model number stickers.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on December 10, 2014, 06:15:34 pm
The DS1054Z was released a few months back -- has it had a FW update yet?   
The DS1054Z may have been released only two or three months ago but it is the same hardware as the DS1074Z/DS1104Z released nearly two years ago. The biggest differences are the software bandwidth limit and model number stickers.
It was announced in September 2013 (see Dave's video, It was made available around oct/dec 2013, So that is ONE year.

Software versions were : 2.01, 2.03SP5, 4.01, and lately a very buggy beta version..............

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on December 10, 2014, 06:27:08 pm
Since the hack sites seem to be disappearing, probably due to Rigol, they may holding off shipment until the hack sites are down.  I guess we'll find out when they finally start shipping again. Or they have a defeat for the hack and want it installed as rapidly as possible and in as many systems.

From what I have read no-one has found a major enough flaw to halt shipment.

 My 2cents worth.  :-//

I'd bet on the firmware issue. If they start delivering with a known firmware issue (even if it's minor) then both Rigol and distributors will be overloaded with return/repair requests. The main issue is that it's a known problem, not that it's major problem with the scope.

Rigol may still be making shipments to dealers willing to upgrade the firmware before shipping to customers. From a dealers perspective they would probably prefer to have Rigol do it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on December 10, 2014, 06:44:43 pm
I bought a DS-1054Z last week and it seems fairly easy to use even though I've never owned a DSO before.
The biggest challenge to using a multimeter, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, logic analyzer and most other basic instruments is knowing what you are looking for. The instruments' fundamental functions usually become largely self-explanatory once you know why you need to use a given instrument for a given task since the two are directly related by physics and maths.

The most "difficult" thing going from an analog to digital scope is getting used to functions being two or three menus deep into the DSO's UI instead of having dedicated buttons or switches on the analog scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 10, 2014, 06:58:46 pm
I'd bet on the firmware issue.
I'm not so sure.
Members Bud & MarkL's investigations in the jitter thread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/) indicate the PLL might not be engineered precisely or incorrectly implemeted.
Firmware can only suppress any issue here, not eradicate it.
Thats why not all units are affected to the same degree.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on December 10, 2014, 07:23:58 pm
I'd bet on the firmware issue.
I'm not so sure.
Members Bud & MarkL's investigations in the jitter thread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/) indicate the PLL might not be engineered precisely or incorrectly implemeted.
Firmware can only suppress any issue here, not eradicate it.
Thats why not all units are affected to the same degree.

That's true of course, but firmware is often used to hide the limitations of hardware. While we may not like it, certain settings are often "locked out" to prevent hardware be used to it's full capacity or because of cost.

I could see a situation where the software detects this (jitter) issue and simply displays a message on the bottom of the screen "Unable to lock", is that sufficient? I don't know that many would like it but it's a valid approach to keep the unit in production. The message has nothing to do with reality but better to have it so another (more reliable) test can be performed. My feeling is that this approach would have been a better first step.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 10, 2014, 07:45:32 pm

That's true of course, but firmware is often used to hide the limitations of hardware. While we may not like it, certain settings are often "locked out" to prevent hardware be used to it's full capacity or because of cost.

I could see a situation where the software detects this (jitter) issue and simply displays a message on the bottom of the screen "Unable to lock", is that sufficient?
Maybe IF any scope was being used in an advanced manner, certainly not for simple measurements.

Bud has even gone so far as to put his nuts on the line in this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg564533/#msg564533 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg564533/#msg564533)

Thats real guts IMO
Study the previous posts to see why he has arrived at that conclusion.

Buy a DS1054Z or not?
Information is paramount for this decision.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on December 10, 2014, 08:12:33 pm
Bud has even gone so far as to put his nuts on the line in this post:

That's a bit of an overstatement (rather like the one he makes in his post): he's an anonymous poster who has been a member here since April of this year - so I'm not sure what he would lose by being wrong. He makes some valid points in his posts - but he also jumps to conclusions that are not supported by any/much evidence at the moment.

Quote
Buy a DS1054Z or not?
Information is paramount for this decision.

There is no doubt that Rigol needs to address these problems. OTOH, people have been managing to use the DS1000Z for their intended purposes for about a year now. Why? Because most people aren't using large trigger offsets or AC-coupled triggers most of the time. The reason the problem(s) have gone unnoticed/unfixed is because the usage which produces the errors isn't common. Even Dave had played around with one for awhile without noticing the problems - he found out from another member here. Heck, Dave has had a DS2000 for 2 years and never noticed the AC-coupled trigger bug - and we had even reported the bug in this forum  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 10, 2014, 08:45:56 pm

That's a bit of an overstatement (rather like the one he makes in his post): he's an anonymous poster who has been a member here since April of this year .....
So....... we have members with significant expertise joining here everyday.
I haven't seen others give this the same investigation that it rightfully deserves.

If what has been claimed in his posts is indeed correct, IMO it displays a trend in the ongoing reduction in the quality of test quipment in general. Does this not worry us...it does me.
Are not oscilloscopes precision equipment?

Sure we have seen many products hurried to market, only to be exposed as unfinished/incomplete.
Time will tell if this is the case with DS1000 series or there is indeed a design error.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on December 10, 2014, 09:09:19 pm

That's a bit of an overstatement (rather like the one he makes in his post): he's an anonymous poster who has been a member here since April of this year .....
So....... we have members with significant expertise joining here everyday.
I haven't seen others give this the same investigation that it rightfully deserves.

If what has been claimed in his posts is indeed correct, IMO it displays a trend in the ongoing reduction in the quality of test quipment in general. Does this not worry us...it does me.
Are not oscilloscopes precision equipment?

Sure we have seen many products hurried to market, only to be exposed as unfinished/incomplete.
Time will tell if this is the case with DS1000 series of there is indeed a design error.

It is a design error, no question. It does not matter if it's firmware or hardware related. All new products have issues, Rigol was caught with one (or two or three).

I guess the issue is that if there is a hardware design fault and you can hide it with firmware do you do it? I say yes, correct the hardware in a later board revision and continue on. Future firmware will have to account for this but such is life. Design is about money, not nice but true.

As for the Wallmarting of electronics in general, it's always there, it's just a matter of how far is too far. The lack of communication between the penny pinchers and everyone else is a big issue. There is nothing wrong with pushing hard to save money but not so hard you break the product (and therefore the company).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on December 10, 2014, 09:12:51 pm
So....... we have members with significant expertise joining here everyday.
I haven't seen others give this the same investigation that it rightfully deserves.

I wasn't questioning his expertise or sincerity (perhaps he's completely right - or perhaps he's partially right) - just your statement that "his nuts are on the line". To me, that involves telling your boss something really bad, etc, - i.e. 'real-world' consequences. ;D

Quote
If what has been claimed in his posts is indeed correct, IMO it displays a trend in the ongoing reduction in the quality of test quipment in general. Does this not worry us...it does me.
Are not oscilloscopes precision equipment?

Well, I would say that even if what he claims is NOT correct, there is definitely an ongoing reduction in the quality of a lot of equipment - both test and otherwise (I've been recently buying semi-professional woodworking machinery and I'm fairly disappointed in the quality).

And cheap DSOs as precision equipment? Sure, I suppose they can be - but I think it boils down to 'you get what you pay for'. Even with all the bugs or unfinished features in some of these modern Chinese DSOs, the amount of power per dollar is pretty astounding. There are some things they do well - some things they do badly - and some things they won't do it all - and as long as you know the limitations of the particular device (and whether the things it can do will fit your needs), you can still get a lot of use from them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on December 10, 2014, 10:34:14 pm
Since the hack sites seem to be disappearing, probably due to Rigol, they may holding off shipment until the hack sites are down.  I guess we'll find out when they finally start shipping again. Or they have a defeat for the hack and want it installed as rapidly as possible and in as many systems.

What hack sites have disappeared?  The ones I know of are still up.

Also, has there been any actual statement that Rigol has stopped shipments, or is that just a guess?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poida_pie on December 11, 2014, 12:00:23 am
OTOH, people have been managing to use the DS1000Z for their intended purposes for about a year now. Why? Because most people aren't using large trigger offsets or AC-coupled triggers most of the time.

My Ds1054Z, running the beta firmware and no installed license codes has a horizontal timebase jitter
of approximately 75-80ns at 15 us offset.
You say most people don't need a decent trigger offset performance.
Have you looked at any decoded serial bus data without browsing forward and backwards from the trigger point along the captured (and decoded) signal? I know I do and I suspect most others do as well.

This jitter problem is not going to disappear just because you may think most people do not need to see a delayed signal. A scenario could be where an event occurs and 15 us later a 1 Mhz clocked spi data stream starts.
my DS1054Z will blur the signal to 8% of the 1 Mhz clock.
I see this as unusable.



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on December 11, 2014, 12:42:02 am
Are not oscilloscopes precision equipment?
The bulk of DSOs out there only have 8bits ADCs. You are not going to get much precision out of those unless you have a repetitive signal and crank averaging up all the way.

I would be more worried about accuracy: making sure what I am seeing is actually representative of what is really there.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on December 11, 2014, 02:12:55 pm
You say most people don't need a decent trigger offset performance.

I never wrote that (nor would I)...

Quote
This jitter problem is not going to disappear just because you may think most people do not need to see a delayed signal.

...and I certainly never wrote that.

What I did write was that I thought the reason the problem hadn't been reported in the last year was that it wasn't a capability many owners were often using. The other possibilities are that the 5us jitter is something limited to the more recent HW revision(s) of the main board - or - that it is only severe in a limited number of cases.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on December 11, 2014, 02:17:13 pm
OTOH, people have been managing to use the DS1000Z for their intended purposes for about a year now. Why? Because most people aren't using large trigger offsets or AC-coupled triggers most of the time.

My Ds1054Z, running the beta firmware and no installed license codes has a horizontal timebase jitter
of approximately 75-80ns at 15 us offset.
You say most people don't need a decent trigger offset performance.
Have you looked at any decoded serial bus data without browsing forward and backwards from the trigger point along the captured (and decoded) signal? I know I do and I suspect most others do as well.

This jitter problem is not going to disappear just because you may think most people do not need to see a delayed signal. A scenario could be where an event occurs and 15 us later a 1 Mhz clocked spi data stream starts.
my DS1054Z will blur the signal to 8% of the 1 Mhz clock.
I see this as unusable.

Mine peaks around 16-17us as well with the beta FW.

Can you check if it becomes good in multiples of ~33us?

A scenario could be where an event occurs and 15 us later a 1 Mhz clocked spi data stream starts.
my DS1054Z will blur the signal to 8% of the 1 Mhz clock.
I see this as unusable.

That is a piss poor use case ;p Unless of course you are not analysing any of the data and just watching continuous signals, but who does that with SPI?   :-//  :-X (you wont really have issues with decoding and using a non-auto trigger)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on December 11, 2014, 02:23:12 pm
What I did write was that I thought the reason the problem hadn't been reported in the last year was that it wasn't a capability many owners were often using. The other possibilities are that the 5us jitter is something limited to the more recent HW revision(s) of the main board - or - that it is only severe in a limited number of cases.
..which is certainly possible. My 1074Z (spring 2014) does NOT exhibit the n*5 us trigger issue. And I have used the trigger offset extensively when decoding (and especially troubleshooting SW implementations of) SPI and I2C signals...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on December 11, 2014, 04:55:25 pm
..which is certainly possible. My 1074Z (spring 2014) does NOT exhibit the n*5 us trigger issue. And I have used the trigger offset extensively when decoding (and especially troubleshooting SW implementations of) SPI and I2C signals...
Some people have noticed jitter worse than 200ns, others around 100ns, yet more under 50ns and the lucky ones report none. There clearly is a wild variance and luck-of-the-draw component behind it; maybe an issue with the ADC clock generator PLL's drift and jitter combined with the reference crystal's own and the tolerances of all the other components around the PLL/VCO.

Rigol may have rounded off one too many corners there and got wildly inconsistent yields for this particular use-case as a result.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ruffy91 on December 11, 2014, 06:59:43 pm
The swiss distributor for rigol (electronic.maxdata.ch) told me that a container with Rigol instruments (including DS1054z) arrives in germany on 17. Dec. So I should have my DS1054z on 23. Dec. I'll report wheter I have the jitter or not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aroby on December 11, 2014, 08:14:46 pm
Are not oscilloscopes precision equipment?
The bulk of DSOs out there only have 8bits ADCs. You are not going to get much precision out of those unless you have a repetitive signal and crank averaging up all the way.

I would be more worried about accuracy: making sure what I am seeing is actually representative of what is really there.

I'd asked that same question a while ago about my DS2072A (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds2072a-vmax/msg428068/#msg428068 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds2072a-vmax/msg428068/#msg428068)) which doesn't display the correct voltages, apparently because of the ADC precision.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poida_pie on December 11, 2014, 09:19:37 pm


Mine peaks around 16-17us as well with the beta FW.

Can you check if it becomes good in multiples of ~33us?

A scenario could be where an event occurs and 15 us later a 1 Mhz clocked spi data stream starts.
my DS1054Z will blur the signal to 8% of the 1 Mhz clock.
I see this as unusable.

That is a piss poor use case ;p Unless of course you are not analysing any of the data and just watching continuous signals, but who does that with SPI?   :-//  :-X (you wont really have issues with decoding and using a non-auto trigger)


My unit peaks around 28us. See
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg558628/#msg558628 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg558628/#msg558628)
for screen captures.

Maybe it's time to feed yours and my DS1054Z with an SPI data stream clocked around 1 and up to 8 MHz (why 8? Arduino max SPI clock speed. remember this DSO is targeted at hobbyists)
and see if it can decode at a few delay positions. It might be fine even with the large jitter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on December 12, 2014, 05:26:25 am
My unit peaks around 28us. See
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg558628/#msg558628 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg558628/#msg558628)
for screen captures.

Maybe it's time to feed yours and my DS1054Z with an SPI data stream clocked around 1 and up to 8 MHz (why 8? Arduino max SPI clock speed. remember this DSO is targeted at hobbyists)
and see if it can decode at a few delay positions. It might be fine even with the large jitter.

Thanks, seems your might even be worse than mine :( Edit: Actually not! I assume you mean repeat, and not peak from the screens. Mine repeats around ~33us.

Here are mine: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg558863/#msg558863 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg558863/#msg558863)

I have not done anything really after the beta FW, but before I was quite happily dealing with 8MHZ SPI decoding on a delayed trigger, in single shot mode. No issues experienced. Was using a STM32L0x in my case.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on December 13, 2014, 08:37:08 pm
Are not oscilloscopes precision equipment?

The bulk of DSOs out there only have 8bits ADCs. You are not going to get much precision out of those unless you have a repetitive signal and crank averaging up all the way.

And even this will not improve linearity or settling time.  Most of the benefit from averaging or high resolution mode is in reducing noise.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Rodot on December 15, 2014, 05:38:16 pm
Hello,

I've been following EEVblog on YouTube for a while now, it's my first time on this forum as I have a few questions about this oscilloscope :

I'm from France and can't find the DS1054Z in stock anywhere in Europe, all sellers seem to be out of stock. Batter Fly are out of stock too since a few days ago, I'm waiting for an answer from arBenelux but I don't think they ship to France. Zeitech seem to have it in stock but with a 4 weeks delay (do you know if it's usually faster?).
Ideally, I would need this oscilloscope within 8-15 days. Thanks for reading !  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on December 15, 2014, 07:21:26 pm
Ideally, I would need this oscilloscope within 8-15 days. Thanks for reading !  :)
I ordered one a month ago. The lead time I got back then was 10-12 weeks.

I'm guessing Rigol is keeping supplies of the 1054Z tight so it won't nuke demand for the 1074Z/1104Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on December 15, 2014, 07:39:29 pm
I'm from France and can't find the DS1054Z in stock anywhere in Europe, all sellers seem to be out of stock. Batter Fly are out of stock too since a few days ago, I'm waiting for an answer from arBenelux but I don't think they ship to France. Zeitech seem to have it in stock but with a 4 weeks delay (do you know if it's usually faster?).
Ideally, I would need this oscilloscope within 8-15 days. Thanks for reading !  :)
See reply to DanielS.

If you need it sooner than 4 weeks, then you'll have to spring for a more expensive model, such as the DS1074Z. The stock on those isn't moving as fast, so you're far more likely to actually find one in stock somewhere.

I ordered one a month ago. The lead time I got back then was 10-12 weeks.

I'm guessing Rigol is keeping supplies of the 1054Z tight so it won't nuke demand for the 1074Z/1104Z.
It's simply supply and demand. Right now the demand is greater than the supply, so sellers run out between shipments (Rigol can't keep up ATM).

FWIW, 13 weeks lead time directly from manufacturers is rather common (especially from Asia; large orders tend to be palletized & transported on container ships rather than aircraft, which can take 2 weeks or so just to reach port).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on December 15, 2014, 07:42:54 pm
which can take 2 weeks or so just to reach port

At the very least 2 weeks. Anything from 4-12 weeks is normal for non-air freight.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on December 15, 2014, 08:15:47 pm
which can take 2 weeks or so just to reach port

At the very least 2 weeks. Anything from 4-12 weeks is normal for non-air freight.
Just sea time, or does that include port time (load/unload & clearing customs) and land transport?

IIRC, worst time I can recall is 36 days, but can't recall if that was purely sea travel or not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on December 15, 2014, 09:17:03 pm
Even prior to the firmware issue delays where near 4 weeks. Rigol was caught off-guard by it's popularity.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Micael on December 16, 2014, 06:06:02 am
Yeah ordered mine at the end of October only got it at the end of last week.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dworki on December 16, 2014, 07:47:30 am
I ordered mine from silcon.cz yesterday and they told me new batch is arriving tomorrow or the day after tomorrow and that I should expect the package monday or tuesday. My first scope - these will be SOME christmas:-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gmb42 on December 16, 2014, 12:24:44 pm
I ordered mine from Rigol UK (Telonic) on the 17th Nov, they shipped it Fri 12th Dec and I received it yesterday, Tues 16th.

According to the invoice it is ver V00.04.01/SP2, I can't check as I'm not supposed to open it until Xmas.  :'(

I don't see any evidence of delays for software updates, as this version has been out at least a month.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bad Urban on December 16, 2014, 07:24:49 pm
Hello,
I ordered the DS1054Z at the middle of November. It should have arrived last week, due to the order confimation. Today I got the message, that the scope has been shipped from the german retailer to me :)
Im very curious about it. Its my first digital scope  ;)
I read much about this here an at other websites. I think it will make fine under the xmas tree ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on December 17, 2014, 11:38:04 pm
I finally got my DS1054Z. I of course want to unlock the extras but I can't find any site with the code generator that is still alive or has a working generator.

rigol.3owl.com is down, so is another site, and goroot.ca does not produce a working code.

I have tried to find links and references here on the forums, but it is an ocean to swim. Any help please?

BTW, my software version is 00.04.02 SP3, Board version 0.1.1
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on December 17, 2014, 11:39:46 pm
I finally got my DS1054Z. I of course want to unlock the extras but I can't find any site with the code generator that is still alive or has a working generator.

rigol.3owl.com is down, so is another site, and goroot.ca does not produce a working code.

I have tried to find links and references here on the forums, but it is an ocean to swim. Any help please?

BTW, my software version is 00.04.02 SP3, Board version 0.1.1

Unless they have silently changed something, this does indeed work: http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on December 17, 2014, 11:53:04 pm
Well I tried that site again and it gave me a different code this time, and it worked!?

Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on December 18, 2014, 05:07:45 am
I have read most of the threads and posts on this scope. I must say I am very impressed for the price. I do have some gripes about it already though after only having for a few hours.

#1. I have to agree with some others here; The control response is so slow for some things. Not a deal breaker but I did not expect such slow response.

#2. The menu system and options are a bit intrusive when all you want to do is see the signal.

#3. Measurements displays always display even if the are deleted or cleared. I remember reading about this here but I don't remember any option to just see the measurement display that is actually active without having to shut down the scope and restarting it.

#4. No adjustable filters? The DS1052E has this. Why not the DS1054Z?

All in all I am very happy with my purchase and think this is a great addition to my kit, but I won't soon be selling my DS1052E nor my old analog 20MHz scope. They still have their advantages for some things. I wanted 4 channels, serial decoding, serial protocol triggering output, bigger display, bigger memory, etc so it was a good buy.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Guni on December 18, 2014, 10:31:27 am
#1. I have to agree with some others here; The control response is so slow for some things. Not a deal breaker but I did not expect such slow response.

#2. The menu system and options are a bit intrusive when all you want to do is see the signal.

#3. Measurements displays always display even if the are deleted or cleared. I remember reading about this here but I don't remember any option to just see the measurement display that is actually active without having to shut down the scope and restarting it.

#4. No adjustable filters? The DS1052E has this. Why not the DS1054Z?
Ad.1
We can not expect miracle for this price  ;)
Ad.2
Should be some option to hide left and/or right vertical menu
Ad.3
Yes, I agree. It's very complicated to disable one or more of measurements. I don't understand why it can not be realize by just press on/off of each 33 parameters. One press to on, second to off - very simple. Also frequency measurement is quite strange - something like two different system - software and hardware
Ad.4
I thing it's a low cost input. In DS1052E is AD8370 and LHM6552, in DS1000z transistors (take a look at reverse engineer video) 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MadScientist on December 18, 2014, 10:38:56 am
I paid €293 euros for my DS1054Z.  ( all my other lab gear was more expensive) You guys need to stop arguing about one of the best value scopes ever. 

Go out and pay 4K for an Aglient, then you'll also find things that annoy you


really these types of " angels on a pinhead" debate are a waste of time.

 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Guni on December 18, 2014, 10:44:14 am
We don't have 4k to spend for Aglient  :P
So, we just discus about some imperfection of our "best value scopes ever"  ;D
Can we?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on December 18, 2014, 02:37:06 pm
Sure. How about this model being defective having a major issue with ADC clock - see the Jitter thread in Blog Specific section of the Forum.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on December 18, 2014, 03:12:09 pm
Sure. How about this model being defective having a major issue with ADC clock - see the Jitter thread in Blog Specific section of the Forum.

Indeed, a problem so major that it's taken over a year to draw any significant attention.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: robrenz on December 18, 2014, 03:34:05 pm
Sure. How about this model being defective having a major issue with ADC clock - see the Jitter thread in Blog Specific section of the Forum.

Indeed, a problem so major that it's taken over a year to draw any significant attention.

That may mean that many/majority of them are more shelf decoration for wannabe EE's like myself than tools that are actually being used in somewhat obscure scenarios that would highlight a shortcoming.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on December 18, 2014, 08:23:18 pm
Sure. How about this model being defective having a major issue with ADC clock - see the Jitter thread in Blog Specific section of the Forum.

Indeed, a problem so major that it's taken over a year to draw any significant attention.

That may mean that many/majority of them are more shelf decoration for wannabe EE's like myself than tools that are actually being used in somewhat obscure scenarios that would highlight a shortcoming.

Quite possibly there is some truth in that. The weird thing is is that if someone had described the two faults to me ab initio, I wouldn't have called them obscure. Having said that, I can't remember the last time I knowingly used AC trigger coupling, and the other fault appears to needs a fairly specific criteria occuring including a fairly high frequency compared to the unit's bandwidth, a continuously running delayed trigger, and it doesn't happen on all scopes. On a real time sampling DSO it's probably more common to be operating in single shot in that scenario, so you wouldn't necessarily readily notice it.

So maybe it is in the obscure category as you say, especially bearing in mind how long it's taken to get any attention.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on December 18, 2014, 08:30:15 pm
Sure. How about this model being defective having a major issue with ADC clock - see the Jitter thread in Blog Specific section of the Forum.

Indeed, a problem so major that it's taken over a year to draw any significant attention.

That may mean that many/majority of them are more shelf decoration for wannabe EE's like myself than tools that are actually being used in somewhat obscure scenarios that would highlight a shortcoming.
Still waiting to see how all of this shakes out of course, but I suspect they're being used almost exclusively for common tasks, and do just fine at them (based on current information being reported). Still making it quite useful as a general purpose, entry level DSO at a hobby friendly price IMHO.  ;D

Users do need to be aware of it's limits, including bugs, and any work-arounds where applicable though, so I'm all for continuing the bug hunt.  8)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: max_torque on December 18, 2014, 09:30:39 pm
After a bit of deliberation, i've just splashed out on a DS1074Z-S, bugs n' all!   So far the most impressive bit, for the money, seems to be the build quality.  It's surprisingly heavy and robust, no danger of pushing off the shelf when you try to operate the push buttons like some cheapo scopes i have used previously!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on December 18, 2014, 10:02:39 pm
Guys.. just an update.  If you got an email from us about your ds1054z shipping 12/31... they will be shipping tomorrow instead.  ( monday if we dont get them all out but most will go tomorrow ) I dont want to send a bunch of new emails out for yet another change of date but we will ship them tomorrow for anyone who got a 12/31 confirmation. Anyone else we will be getting 400 in the 2nd week of Jan.

Thanks everyone.
Evan

TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on December 18, 2014, 10:05:51 pm
Canada will be 1 week.  We have to export them from NJ in one batch. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on December 19, 2014, 05:35:42 am
Guys.. just an update.  If you got an email from us about your ds1054z shipping 12/31... they will be shipping tomorrow instead.  ( monday if we dont get them all out but most will go tomorrow ) I dont want to send a bunch of new emails out for yet another change of date but we will ship them tomorrow for anyone who got a 12/31 confirmation. Anyone else we will be getting 400 in the 2nd week of Jan.

Thanks everyone.
Evan

TEquipment.NET

Looks like Santa is cutting it close but do-able. A lot of happy folks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kerrsmith on December 19, 2014, 01:16:04 pm
I received an email (in the UK) yesterday and was told mine was arriving today, they had a batch flown in directly from China and were sending them out straight away.

All these units will have new firmware in them I was told on the phone when I called to check about the knows bugs and that the scopes are now fixed regarding the AC coupled trigger mode and the jitter issues.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: robrenz on December 19, 2014, 07:25:32 pm
I received an email (in the UK) yesterday and was told mine was arriving today, they had a batch flown in directly from China and were sending them out straight away.

All these units will have new firmware in them I was told on the phone when I called to check about the knows bugs and that the scopes are now fixed regarding the AC coupled trigger mode and the jitter issues.

This post from the jitter thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg571357/#msg571357) implies things might be different than what you were told. :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kerrsmith on December 19, 2014, 07:29:56 pm
Yes, I have just read this - I put a similar note in this thread as that one just in case someone was not reading all the threads (there is a lot to read if you start from the beginning of all the threads).

My scope did not arrive today as the courier decided to leave in their depot all day and not deliver it unfortunately (after emailing me to say it was going to be delivered today and to make sure I was home to sign for it).

Once it arrives (Monday hopefully) I should be able to see what firmware it has.

I will have all weekend to get excited now - I have been waiting ages to get a new scope (maybe I will spend the time reading the user manual)...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: beNative on December 19, 2014, 07:42:05 pm
Quote
I finally got my DS1054Z. I of course want to unlock the extras but I can't find any site with the code generator that is still alive or has a working generator.

rigol.3owl.com is down, so is another site, and goroot.ca does not produce a working code.

I have tried to find links and references here on the forums, but it is an ocean to swim. Any help please?

BTW, my software version is 00.04.02 SP3, Board version 0.1.1

I can confirm that. Mine arrived yesterday. The code generator does not work for 00.04.02 SP3. The jitter problem seems to be solved by this firmware version.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on December 19, 2014, 07:54:43 pm
The code generator does work, eventually. Try closing the web page and retry the code generation again. It generated a different code for me after the 5th try and it worked.

I have not had time to test the jitter problem yet.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Retep on December 19, 2014, 08:32:42 pm
I finally got my DS1054Z. I of course want to unlock the extras but I can't find any site with the code generator that is still alive or has a working generator.

rigol.3owl.com is down, so is another site, and goroot.ca does not produce a working code.

I have tried to find links and references here on the forums, but it is an ocean to swim. Any help please?
riglol.3owl.com is down but you can still find the archived version here: https://web.archive.org/web/20131215225141/http://riglol.3owl.com/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20131215225141/http://riglol.3owl.com/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on December 19, 2014, 08:49:33 pm
riglol.3owl.com is down but you can still find the archived version here: https://web.archive.org/web/20131215225141/http://riglol.3owl.com/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20131215225141/http://riglol.3owl.com/)
The http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol-103d/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol-103d/) mirror site is also still up and running.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Guni on December 19, 2014, 08:50:11 pm
Working:
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)

There is source code on the bottom of the page. In the zip you can find html+js and compiled version for windows or linux. It better to have off-line version just in case.
Keygen should work on new firmware. Keys not depend on FW, I think.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkL on December 19, 2014, 09:04:19 pm
I can confirm that. Mine arrived yesterday. The code generator does not work for 00.04.02 SP3. The jitter problem seems to be solved by this firmware version.

That's the same board and firmware version in the DS1054Z I had, and it had the jitter problem.

Based on the testing over in the jitter thread from a bunch of users, we know the severity varies.  I'll bet you got one where the PLL isn't as unstable.   (Assuming, of course, Rigol is being honest and consistent with their version numbering...)

You can do the sample clock test to find out if you're curious.

But if you can't see it and it's not interfering with the type of testing you want to do, I guess it's you're lucky day.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: leppie on December 19, 2014, 09:06:44 pm
I can confirm that. Mine arrived yesterday. The code generator does not work for 00.04.02 SP3. The jitter problem seems to be solved by this firmware version.

That's the same board and firmware version in the DS1054Z I had, and it had the jitter problem.

Did you ever apply the beta FW? If so, did you bad results like poida_pie and me?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkL on December 19, 2014, 09:24:28 pm
I can confirm that. Mine arrived yesterday. The code generator does not work for 00.04.02 SP3. The jitter problem seems to be solved by this firmware version.

That's the same board and firmware version in the DS1054Z I had, and it had the jitter problem.

Did you ever apply the beta FW? If so, did you bad results like poida_pie and me?

I loaded the beta, but I didn't have results like you two.  Besides ending up with a randomly locking keypad on boot, I got this with the beta:

  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg560788/#msg560788 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg560788/#msg560788)

I thought it was fixed at first, but if you read on we determined it was not:

  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg563330/#msg563330 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg563330/#msg563330)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: beNative on December 21, 2014, 02:13:37 pm
Well, after some more testing it seems that I was wrong.

Thx @Lightages for your feedback! I tried with another generated code and all worked fine.

@MarkL: I was not that lucky after all. My initial tests were only for frequencies upto 1MHz. Today I tried again on a signal of 10MHz and the jitter was clearly visible after I switched the trigger coupling to AC. I have attached a picture of the signal on the DS1054z and the same signal on my analog scope. I will do some other tests on higher frequencies and post the results.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: beNative on December 21, 2014, 03:05:29 pm
ok, I did now some more tests on frequencies > 5 MHz.
In general it seems that the jitter problem is not gone, but it isn't quite as substantial as what was reported earlier in this thread by other users. On my DS1054z which arrived last friday I did not notice the jitter issue when tested on frequencies up to 1MHz.
Today I hooked up my poor man's frequency generator, a AD9850 board which can generate frequencies up to (a noisy) 40MHz.
First some pictures of the rigol with/without AC trigger coupling + signal on my analog scope @10MHz and then the same with a (noisy) signal of 40MHz.

As you can see @10MHz I have jitter with both DC/AC trigger coupling. Maybe the first is just noise generated by my AD9850 board but it is not visible on my analog scope supplied with the same signal.
At 40MHz I saw almost no difference between both settings on the Rigol. On the analog scope the signal did also show up quite noisy.

@MarkL are these results consistent with your findings about the source of the jitter problem? Let me know if there are some other tests I can do to help.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkL on December 21, 2014, 07:45:44 pm
ok, I did now some more tests on frequencies > 5 MHz.
In general it seems that the jitter problem is not gone, but it isn't quite as substantial as what was reported earlier in this thread by other users. On my DS1054z which arrived last friday I did not notice the jitter issue when tested on frequencies up to 1MHz.
Today I hooked up my poor man's frequency generator, a AD9850 board which can generate frequencies up to (a noisy) 40MHz.
First some pictures of the rigol with/without AC trigger coupling + signal on my analog scope @10MHz and then the same with a (noisy) signal of 40MHz.

As you can see @10MHz I have jitter with both DC/AC trigger coupling. Maybe the first is just noise generated by my AD9850 board but it is not visible on my analog scope supplied with the same signal.
At 40MHz I saw almost no difference between both settings on the Rigol. On the analog scope the signal did also show up quite noisy.

@MarkL are these results consistent with your findings about the source of the jitter problem? Let me know if there are some other tests I can do to help.
The problem I was referring to is the 5us jitter.  The AC coupling jitter has more consistent behavior scope to scope, and should be correctable with new firmware.  Take a read through the jitter thread in blog #683, and if it's not clear what the difference might be between the two, watch Dave's blog #685 on AC trigger coupling.

What I meant by you being "lucky" is that the 5us jitter is dependent on component variations and your PLL either managed to lock, or is just not unstable enough to be visible in the time domain.  If it's working well enough for you, you're in luck (although we know temperature affects it also, so hopefully it your scope will stay that way).

A more detailed sample clock test, which is the origin of the 5us jitter, can be performed:

  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg566455/#msg566455 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg566455/#msg566455)

You can use Alessandro's program to do an FFT.

And also, it looks like your trigger might be set at the peak of the waveform, which is causing some of the randomness in the last couple of shots.

If you want to dig into the jitter issue, you might want to hop onto the jitter thread so we don't have another parallel thread going.  (Not that THAT ever happens...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on December 22, 2014, 02:50:43 am
Something is either wrong in the previous setup (beNative) or mine. The 2 pictures are of a 10 MHz and a 50MHz sine wave fed to my 1054z thru a 50 ohm load. There is no difference in AC or DC coupling. The Signal Generator is a HP8664A set for 0dBm output.

Thoughts? Notice the difference in time settings.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on December 22, 2014, 05:09:43 am
ok, I did now some more tests on frequencies > 5 MHz.
First some pictures of the rigol with/without AC trigger coupling + signal on my analog scope @10MHz and then the same with a (noisy) signal of 40MHz.
It is not clear that your analog scope is showing the waveform after 6uSec Delay.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on December 22, 2014, 04:15:03 pm
In response to a PM. AC or DC Coupling had no effect. However Edge triggering with AC trigger showed the following. If I go to slope Trigger it will not allow AC Trigger but goes to DC and shows a correct image.

I quit. By careful manipulation of the Trigger I can get a bad or a good image.

I don't know if there is a problem or not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on December 28, 2014, 01:58:59 am
Can anyone confirm the highest frequency the hardware counter can read? It appears on my DS1054Z hacked to 100MHz reads to 112.999MHz and then starts aliasing any higher. My DS1052E will read at least to 480MHz with the tests I can perform.

The software counter reads correctly.

There appears to be no spec listed for the hardware counter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on December 28, 2014, 03:45:44 am
There appears to be no spec listed for the hardware counter.
I would not be surprised if the DS1xxxZ's "hardware" counter was done by FPGA based on the ADC's output instead of dedicated edge detection and counting hardware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TMM on December 28, 2014, 05:49:50 pm
Can anyone confirm the highest frequency the hardware counter can read? It appears on my DS1054Z hacked to 100MHz reads to 112.999MHz and then starts aliasing any higher. My DS1052E will read at least to 480MHz with the tests I can perform.

The software counter reads correctly.

There appears to be no spec listed for the hardware counter.
Seems to be related to the amplitude of the signal rather than a sampling problem. If you adjust the vertical so it is clipping/off the screen, it will go higher before skipping counts.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on December 28, 2014, 06:24:13 pm
Seems to be related to the amplitude of the signal rather than a sampling problem. If you adjust the vertical so it is clipping/off the screen, it will go higher before skipping counts.

So you have tried this? I did make vertical attenuator adjustments but I never got over 112.999MHz indicated.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: beNative on December 28, 2014, 07:58:22 pm
Does anyone know how to set the realtime clock of the unit? The reason I ask is that all files that I saved so far with this scope are dated 1/01/1980 and I couldn't find a way to adjust the date in the settings. Did I miss something?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on December 28, 2014, 10:33:43 pm
Does anyone know how to set the realtime clock of the unit? The reason I ask is that all files that I saved so far with this scope are dated 1/01/1980 and I couldn't find a way to adjust the date in the settings. Did I miss something?
There is no real time clock on the DS1000Z series scopes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 28, 2014, 11:06:03 pm
Does anyone know how to set the realtime clock of the unit? The reason I ask is that all files that I saved so far with this scope are dated 1/01/1980 and I couldn't find a way to adjust the date in the settings. Did I miss something?
There is no real time clock on the DS1000Z series scopes.
:o Really? Can others confirm this?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on December 28, 2014, 11:43:46 pm
There is no real time clock on the DS1000Z series scopes.
:o Really? Can others confirm this?
Yes I can confirm the DS100Z series does not have an RTC. It is one of the reasons I mostly use Ultra Sigma to capture the screen.
(That is until Marmad publishes a DS1000Z version of RUU  :))

As for the frequency counter: I am almost certain my DS1074Z does not have a "real" HW frequency counter like my DS2072A has. It looks like above 100 MHz the DS1000Z counter gets lost (I first suspected some sort of aliasing wrt 125 MHz, but it seems more complex than that)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on December 29, 2014, 11:32:41 pm
Quote
There is no real time clock on the DS1000Z series scopes.
:o Really? Can others confirm this?

Tis true.  Thus no date/time stamps on captures.  Nor any time-stamps on Segmented acquisitions.  Nada.

I found it surprising enough that I contacted Rigol directly, and they confirmed it (over 6 months ago).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on December 30, 2014, 12:37:51 am
So the 1054z I ordered rmid Nov rolled in today (6 weeks). To the door price from TEQ was just under 440.00usd + blog discount and shipping was by post. Not disappointed at all with that price. So if you are in Canada and are looking for one that is not a bad way to go.

I had my hands on one 2 months ago and was impressed

This is not a needed scope however I will use the serial decoding, I'm sure of that and I hope it works well.

Couldn't find a date code on the box or outside of the unit.


Software version is 00.04.02.SP3
Does have the jitter issue
Board 0.1.1

I did the activation code DSER and it worked fine.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: electr_peter on December 30, 2014, 09:34:23 am
Software version is 00.04.04.SP3
Does have the jitter issue
Board 0.1.1
00.04.04.SP3 or 00.04.02.SP3? If 00.04.04.SP3, then RIGOL is updating scopes pretty quickly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frostheave on December 30, 2014, 03:54:32 pm
Sorry in advance if I am posting in the wrong thread.
Yesterday I received a new DS1074Z.  I also did the activation code DSER and it worked no problem.  My question is, can I upgrade to the latest firmware?  Currently the scope is version 00.04.01.SP2 and Board 0.1.1.  Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: drakke on December 30, 2014, 11:44:31 pm

Software version is 00.04.04.SP3
Does have the jitter issue
Board 0.1.1


People are still buying this despite the jitter issue?
Are they confident it is software fixable or do they think it won't affect them?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: drakke on December 31, 2014, 12:43:59 am
I cannot find an active website that give valid unlock codes for hacking this from 50MHz to 100Mhz.
Are people still doing this?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David_AVD on December 31, 2014, 01:02:15 am
People are still buying this despite the jitter issue?
Are they confident it is software fixable or do they think it won't affect them?

I'd say that a lot of people won't ever see the issue in their normal day to day measurements.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on December 31, 2014, 01:11:17 am
I cannot find an active website that give valid unlock codes for hacking this from 50MHz to 100Mhz.
Are people still doing this?

You can't have looked hard: http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on December 31, 2014, 02:13:32 am
Software version is 00.04.04.SP3
Does have the jitter issue
Board 0.1.1
00.04.04.SP3 or 00.04.02.SP3? If 00.04.04.SP3, then RIGOL is updating scopes pretty quickly.



Sorry that was a mistake 00.04.02.SP3 is correct
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on December 31, 2014, 02:27:55 am
Sorry in advance if I am posting in the wrong thread.
Yesterday I received a new DS1074Z.  I also did the activation code DSER and it worked no problem.  My question is, can I upgrade to the latest firmware?  Currently the scope is version 00.04.01.SP2 and Board 0.1.1.  Thanks for your help!

There is no point in updating the firmware unless you are having an issue that requires it. At this point there have been no major fixes.

When it does happen (major fixes) check the forum and ask if key upgrades will be killed. If they are then you will need to decide what is more critical. At this point there is no indication that they will but you never know.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on December 31, 2014, 02:37:53 am

Software version is 00.04.04.SP3
Does have the jitter issue
Board 0.1.1


People are still buying this despite the jitter issue?
Are they confident it is software fixable or do they think it won't affect them?

When you buy gear you do so with your needs in mind (like anything). I am well aware of the jitter issue and the scopes other feature outweigh that fault.

Unlike most scopes this one has been really picked apart. For me that's good. I had a fair understanding of it's capabilities before buying. The jitter issue is a clear fault and not minor, but knowing it is there allows you understand what you are seeing. On the other hand had I purchased this scope, not known of the issue, and missed the fault while making a measurement?

You need to understand the limitations of your gear.

I do want it fixed, but it does not mean it's a useless piece of crap. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: drakke on December 31, 2014, 03:28:30 am

When you buy gear you do so with your needs in mind (like anything). I am well aware of the jitter issue and the scopes other feature outweigh that fault.



I am also in BC, Canada.
Where did you buy it and what was the final cost ($CDN) shipped to your door?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on December 31, 2014, 03:52:26 am

When you buy gear you do so with your needs in mind (like anything). I am well aware of the jitter issue and the scopes other feature outweigh that fault.



I am also in BC, Canada.
Where did you buy it and what was the final cost ($CDN) shipped to your door?

Thanks.

I got it here:

http://www.tequipment.net/ (http://www.tequipment.net/)

You can get a discount code on this thread

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/new/?topicseen#new (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/new/?topicseen#new)

I had it shipped by post and paid on paypal (send teq an email to ask for the details on paypal). the through the door price was around 530CDN. When you consider 399usd as the base cost it's a very fair deal. The discount helps. As far as I can tell this is the cheapest you will find in Canada.

The shipment comes directly from the Rilgol in Beaverton with all the correct documentation so it can be delivered directly (by post) to your home.



 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kevbry on December 31, 2014, 05:39:07 am

When you buy gear you do so with your needs in mind (like anything). I am well aware of the jitter issue and the scopes other feature outweigh that fault.



I am also in BC, Canada.
Where did you buy it and what was the final cost ($CDN) shipped to your door?

Thanks.

I got mine from Electro-meters in Ontario, who run the rigolcanada site. They're listed as official distributors for Canada by Rigol. Total was $470CDN shipped by Fedex.

Process has been a bit frustrating... no feedback after ordering other than the receipt from paypal (they took payment out at time of order), and no response to any of the three emails I've sent. I called in after three weeks of not hearing anything and managed to talk to someone who was very helpful, and let me know that they were expecting it to come back in stock just before Christmas. Even after that I didn't hear anything of a status update until today when they called before shipping it out.

Prices are right, and phone support was actually really good, but I probably wouldn't buy anything else from them until they get their online status/email support figured out. Almost a month with no status updates by email, and no way to check order status online isn't really acceptable these days. Given how accurate they phone support guy's information was I assume they have a decent order tracking/logistics system, just a shame they don't have anything wired up to the site.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on December 31, 2014, 11:30:51 am
People are still buying this despite the jitter issue?
Are they confident it is software fixable or do they think it won't affect them?
How often do you need to use a 5µs delayed and perfectly timed sweep in your everyday measurements? I can go for weeks without needing delayed sweep.

Is it an irritating, nagging issue that people need to be aware of? Definitely - wouldn't want to waste time chasing mysterious jitter that comes from the scope instead of the DUT.
Is it a deal-breaking issue? For many people and applications, simply using single-shot acquisition after they find the delay that gives them what they are looking for would take care of it.

Is it a (fully) software-fixable issue? Probably not - the way the jitter cycles at almost exactly 10µs intervals implies a same-clocked origin such as ripple from a 1bit DAC in the PLL's control loop.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on December 31, 2014, 11:53:14 pm
New Firmware Here
 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578208/#msg578208)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frostheave on January 01, 2015, 01:27:59 am
Software version is 00.04.04.SP3
Does have the jitter issue
Board 0.1.1
00.04.04.SP3 or 00.04.02.SP3? If 00.04.04.SP3, then RIGOL is updating scopes pretty quickly.


Sorry that was a mistake 00.04.02.SP3 is correct


I emailed Rigol for the latest DS1000Z series firmware.  It is version 00.04.02.04.07

Here is the link:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/s-0518-1412/Bct/l-sf-lead-0006/l-sf-lead-0006:16888/ct2_0/1?sid=W41SWJyI3 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/s-0518-1412/Bct/l-sf-lead-0006/l-sf-lead-0006:16888/ct2_0/1?sid=W41SWJyI3)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on January 01, 2015, 01:37:37 am
How often do you need to use a 5µs delayed and perfectly timed sweep in your everyday measurements? I can go for weeks without needing delayed sweep.

Forget about jitter, this is not the jitter that is the problem, it is the ADC clock which is the problem. Jitter is just a way this defective ADC clock manifests itself. There may be other problems caused by the bad clock that are not that apparent. Unless ADC clock is fixed, people will never know that the measurements they do with the scope are good or incorrect.

People reading this and related topics, whenever they see written "5uS jitter problem" should replace it in their head with "ADC clock problem", then see if that makes them less comfortable then it is now.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frostheave on January 01, 2015, 01:48:05 am
Sorry in advance if I am posting in the wrong thread.
Yesterday I received a new DS1074Z.  I also did the activation code DSER and it worked no problem.  My question is, can I upgrade to the latest firmware?  Currently the scope is version 00.04.01.SP2 and Board 0.1.1.  Thanks for your help!

There is no point in updating the firmware unless you are having an issue that requires it. At this point there have been no major fixes.

When it does happen (major fixes) check the forum and ask if key upgrades will be killed. If they are then you will need to decide what is more critical. At this point there is no indication that they will but you never know.

Good advise.  Thank-you pickle9000.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 01, 2015, 04:52:38 am
@kevbry That is a good price from Electro-meters. They made me a little uneasy as well so I went to a vendor I knew better. Had I seen your post first who knows. No regrets on my part.

@Bud It would be really nice if they at least hinted at what was done in the last version fix. I doubt they will but it would be nice. Love it or hate it I think this will be the most picked apart scope in years. Hand drawn schematics, fixes, addons and holes drilled. Rigol should consider not fighting it and helping out here and there. Allowing a custom splash screen, displaying messages via the pc or whatever. They could invade the educational system and that will pay later on.

For anyone that is interested, my 1054z is on my burn in bench and is around the 56 hour mark of on time. I normally do a couple days of run time when I get new gear, to let it settle in or blow up.

 

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poida_pie on January 01, 2015, 06:18:52 am
How often do you need to use a 5µs delayed and perfectly timed sweep in your everyday measurements? I can go for weeks without needing delayed sweep.

Forget about jitter, this is not the jitter that is the problem, it is the ADC clock which is the problem. Jitter is just a way this defective ADC clock manifests itself. There may be other problems caused by the bad clock that are not that apparent. Unless ADC clock is fixed, people will never know that the measurements they do with the scope are good or incorrect.

People reading this and related topics, whenever they see written "5uS jitter problem" should replace it in their head with "ADC clock problem", then see if that makes them less comfortable then it is now.

And another for instance: a frequency counter that when presented with 20.000MHz signal, reports it as 19.7MHz. This was what the beta f/w had my DS1054Z doing.
Now, after loading the latest firmware from Rigol, look at this EEVBLOG post to get it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578208/#msg578208 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578208/#msg578208)
I am pleased to say the 5uS jitter issue is history.
And the frequency counter shows 20.0002MHz

See the FFT power spectra of my DSO when fed a 20 MHz sine from the Rigol DG1022.
Before - with approx 70ns wide jitter at about 30 us delay.
And after updating with the latest f/w
(still has some spurs. Much, much better than the Chaos Clock but still could be improved, eh Bud?)
No more keyboard lockups too.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on January 01, 2015, 07:34:56 am
A bit  hard to estimate without understanding the horizontal and vertical scales used in these plots. Can you tell what it was in Mhz and dB ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on January 01, 2015, 07:37:41 am
Does the new firmware kill the upgrades?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poida_pie on January 01, 2015, 12:20:42 pm
Does the new firmware kill the upgrades?

No! It still works fine for me.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poida_pie on January 01, 2015, 01:28:24 pm
A bit  hard to estimate without understanding the horizontal and vertical scales used in these plots. Can you tell what it was in Mhz and dB ?

Sorry, I cropped the graphs too tightly. The horizontal scale units are 1e7 Hz, so centre is 20MHz, span from 18MHz to 22Mhz.
The vertical scale is a log10 of the FFT absolute value, NOT scaled to db. These graphs of mine look quite like those
of MarkL, as shown at
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg566538/#msg566538 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg566538/#msg566538)
i.e. 1 = 20db, 0 = 0 db, -1 = -20db etc, etc. sort of, roughly speaking.
The exact same data was used for both my graph in the post above and MarkL's post, image named "20Mhz_DS1054Z:"

The scope seems vastly improved. It is not as cleanly clocked as the Agilient, as shown back in
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg563330/#msg563330 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg563330/#msg563330)
but it's a damn sight better.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on January 01, 2015, 07:01:44 pm
Can you post the same graph but with 6MHz span and 500kHz span?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poida_pie on January 01, 2015, 11:03:52 pm
Can you post the same graph but with 6MHz span and 500kHz span?

I'd be happy to. See attached.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on January 02, 2015, 08:58:17 am
Thanks poida_pie. The first close-up graph has poor resolution but still possible to reference some peaks from the second graph. The reason I asked for a 6MHz span graph was that I wanted to see if Rigol used the same 2.5MHz PLL phase frequency detector frequency they used in the Beta. Sure enough, 2.5MHz spikes can be seen to the left and to the right from the carrier at around 40dBc which is a horribly high level for a PFD frequency to leak into the carrier. The PLL I assembled has them at 75dBc (dBc stands for decibel below carrier).

Having said that PFD is 2.5MHz away from the carrier, other spikes can be seen in proximity to the carrier in the second graph, and that is an indication the PLL is unstable and may still be unlocked. These spikes are approximately at -35dBc which corresponds with measurements Dave just posted in the DS1000 jitter thread under Blog Specific section of the board.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578859/#msg578859 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578859/#msg578859)

So what Rigol appears to have done is they tried to reduce PLL modulation caused by the PLL being unlocked and that masked the jitter issue, however I am yet to see a good screenshot with a good ADC clock and I have not yet. Another person promised to crack open his DS1000 tomorrow and measure the ADC clock with his HP spectrum analyzer. Hopefully that will bring some clarity. I am saying some because it would be needed to also decode the PLL programming bytes on the SPI bus to see if idiotic PLL setup they did in the original and Beta firmware is still there.



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sanman on January 03, 2015, 04:46:50 pm
Upgrade worked fine for me and did NOT kill the upgrades.

LOVE the new EXTRA LARGE measurement font O0
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on January 03, 2015, 06:27:56 pm
EXTRA LARGE measurement font ?

I wonder why we don't get to see a firmware change log, like we do with many other upgrades of this type.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on January 03, 2015, 07:42:49 pm
I guess Bud's never gonna let this one go then.  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on January 03, 2015, 08:13:43 pm
I guess Bud's never gonna let this one go then.  :-DD
Nor should he, the proper design and component implementation in test equipment is in ALL of our interests, is it not?
Edit
A recent post sheds more light on the PLL issue:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-699-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-jitter-fix-testing/msg579692/#msg579692 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-699-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-jitter-fix-testing/msg579692/#msg579692)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on January 03, 2015, 08:42:28 pm
I guess Bud's never gonna let this one go then.  :-DD
Nor should he, the proper design and component implementation in test equipment is in ALL of our interests, is it not?

While I agree that "the proper design and component implementation in test equipment", or indeed any device, is in everyone's interests, I felt that the nature of the continuous undermining subtext was rather unnecessary and added no value, in fact quite the opposite, and quite understandably the public feedback from Rigol became almost non existent as a result. There is more than one way to skin a cat, personally I prefer a positive approach. Just sayin'
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Johnny Electron on January 04, 2015, 07:47:16 pm
Well I'm glad Rigol moved on this.  My new scope is set to arrive tomorrow and I feel a bit more confident in my decision now.  I'll have to update the fw right away.  :-+  Thank you Rigol and thank you members of this forum.  I'm glad I found this place!:)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janoc on January 04, 2015, 08:29:55 pm
Hello,

As I wrote in another thread, I did the update on my 1074Z and it fixed the trigger jitter for me. However, the scope seems to be booting a lot slower now - is that a normal behavior or something fishy going on?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 04, 2015, 08:46:15 pm
Activations keys and jitter fix firmware DS1054Z.

For those interested. A few people have updated the firmware with the keys already installed. I did it as well and have had no issues all the keys are still there. The firmware 00.04.02.SP4 is the current one that in theory fixes the jitter issue. It did fix mine, so far I haven't seen any fails in this regard but it's early days.

My original firmware:

Software 00.04.02.SP3
Board 0.1.1

I used the activation code DSER and it worked on the first go. http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/) A google search for "riglol" should find the key maker if the link dies. You will see others keys listed on the web page, the correct key is not listed you need to use DSER. You may want to download the source and store it in a safe place for future use.

Note that after the keys are activated your Model Number will change to DS1104Z this is normal.

I do not know if the keys will install correctly after the firmware update. I expect that it would but I did not do it that way.

Just a quick note about the firmware install.

- Use a good quality USB stick freshly formatted.
- Install time varies 2-5 minutes is typical but I did read a post that one that was close to 10 minutes. You need to allow the install to finish. Removing power or the stick during the update could cause issues.
- I ran the cal routine after the update. I don't know if that's a recommended procedure but as a general rule I do after a firmware update. Make sure the scope is up to temp so the cal is correct.

 

 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on January 04, 2015, 08:55:16 pm
As I wrote in another thread, I did the update on my 1074Z and it fixed the trigger jitter for me. However, the scope seems to be booting a lot slower now - is that a normal behavior or something fishy going on?
I (still) haven't received my 1054Z so I cannot say anything about the pre/post-update boot time but depending on the nature of Rigol's PLL fix, maybe the firmware does some form of clock quality analysis during boot and goes through PLL parameter ranges to find the best parameters for individual PLLs. If that's the case, they should be saving those settings as a starting point for the next boot so the POST/BIST/Cal will not need to spend as much time searching afterwards, much like how cable modems store their last known-good configuration channel to avoid the blind 54-1000MHz scan to find it on subsequent power-ups assuming it has not changed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 04, 2015, 08:56:06 pm
Hello,

As I wrote in another thread, I did the update on my 1074Z and it fixed the trigger jitter for me. However, the scope seems to be booting a lot slower now - is that a normal behavior or something fishy going on?

I haven't noticed any boot delay. I'm getting 19 seconds.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mamalala on January 04, 2015, 09:11:13 pm
- I ran the cal routine after the update. I don't know if that's a recommended procedure but as a general rule I do after a firmware update. Make sure the scope is up to temp so the cal is correct.

Speaking of which... Is it just my scope, or do others see the same, uh, error in offset adjustment after a cal routine? It seems that the offset calculation takes the lowest value found in the noise and sets that to be the 0V, the result being that the trace sits "on top" of the center line. Unless i'm mistaken, i would expect the slightly noisy trace (when nothing is connected to the input) to be centered to the center line.

When manually selecting a smaller V/div setting it becomes more clear. While at the most sensitive setting(s) the noise goes well below the center line, it still is shifted upwards somewhat.

Greetings,

Chris
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 04, 2015, 09:17:40 pm
- I ran the cal routine after the update. I don't know if that's a recommended procedure but as a general rule I do after a firmware update. Make sure the scope is up to temp so the cal is correct.

Speaking of which... Is it just my scope, or do others see the same, uh, error in offset adjustment after a cal routine? It seems that the offset calculation takes the lowest value found in the noise and sets that to be the 0V, the result being that the trace sits "on top" of the center line. Unless i'm mistaken, i would expect the slightly noisy trace (when nothing is connected to the input) to be centered to the center line.

When manually selecting a smaller V/div setting it becomes more clear. While at the most sensitive setting(s) the noise goes well below the center line, it still is shifted upwards somewhat.

Greetings,

Chris

It looks to me like they are doing something to make the traces more visible when overlapped. If that's the case it would be nice to disable it. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mamalala on January 04, 2015, 09:44:53 pm
It looks to me like they are doing something to make the traces more visible when overlapped. If that's the case it would be nice to disable it.

I don't mean the sometimes strange display if all channels are enabled and nothing is connected. Just the offset from a single channel relative to the 0V center line.

Attached are three (lousy, since i don't have it connected to the computer) images of what i mean. The amount of offset changes slightly depending on what V/div setting is used, but generally the offset is never so that the trace, when no input is applied, is centered around the 0V center line.

Am i wrong in thinking that it should be indeed centered? I'd say it should be centered, since i would expect the noise to be distributed equally above and below 0V.

Greetings,

Chris
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janoc on January 04, 2015, 10:15:13 pm

I haven't noticed any boot delay. I'm getting 19 seconds.

I have just measured the boot time on mine from pushing the power button to trace on screen it takes 34 seconds here ...

The 19 seconds you have sounds more like what I had before. The scope seems to be functional otherwise, but the long startup time had me worried that the thing was hanging on boot!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janoc on January 04, 2015, 10:27:37 pm
As I wrote in another thread, I did the update on my 1074Z and it fixed the trigger jitter for me. However, the scope seems to be booting a lot slower now - is that a normal behavior or something fishy going on?
I (still) haven't received my 1054Z so I cannot say anything about the pre/post-update boot time but depending on the nature of Rigol's PLL fix, maybe the firmware does some form of clock quality analysis during boot and goes through PLL parameter ranges to find the best parameters for individual PLLs. If that's the case, they should be saving those settings as a starting point for the next boot so the POST/BIST/Cal will not need to spend as much time searching afterwards, much like how cable modems store their last known-good configuration channel to avoid the blind 54-1000MHz scan to find it on subsequent power-ups assuming it has not changed.

That sounds reasonable, but it is weird that they wouldn't store those values. For me it hangs a long time with the Rigol logo on the screen, then the LED next to the menu/intensity knob illuminates. Then it "thinks" for a while again and slowly the individual channel LEDs start to come on. Then I hear some relays clicking, the panel LEDs blink and I finally get a trace.

I guess I can live with that, but it is a weird issue.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 04, 2015, 10:32:29 pm

I haven't noticed any boot delay. I'm getting 19 seconds.

I have just measured the boot time on mine from pushing the power button to trace on screen it takes 34 seconds here ...

The 19 seconds you have sounds more like what I had before. The scope seems to be functional otherwise, but the long startup time had me worried that the thing was hanging on boot!

Very different, is it constant? Was the firmware update time excessive? Mine firmware install was under 2 minutes.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on January 04, 2015, 10:36:09 pm
Am i wrong in thinking that it should be indeed centered? I'd say it should be centered, since i would expect the noise to be distributed equally above and below 0V.
I would definitely expect calibrated grounded or unconnected input to follow the channel's vertical position reference marker - centered on the noise's DC value, if any.

I would not consider it a deal-breaking issue since it is easily subtracted out but it would certainly nag me a little - like any known defect in any product.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mamalala on January 04, 2015, 11:20:48 pm
Am i wrong in thinking that it should be indeed centered? I'd say it should be centered, since i would expect the noise to be distributed equally above and below 0V.
I would definitely expect calibrated grounded or unconnected input to follow the channel's vertical position reference marker - centered on the noise's DC value, if any.

I would not consider it a deal-breaking issue since it is easily subtracted out but it would certainly nag me a little - like any known defect in any product.

Agreed, it's not a big issue and can be corrected manually quite easy, if needed. It's more of a "WTF were they thinking?" thing.

Greetings,

Chris
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janoc on January 04, 2015, 11:29:00 pm
Very different, is it constant? Was the firmware update time excessive? Mine firmware install was under 2 minutes.

Yes, it is constant, same thing on every boot. The firmware update was fairly smooth and quick, no problems.

I am going to try to reset all the options and re-install them, perhaps the new firmware doesn't like something there.

EDIT: Even after resetting of the all options the boot time is the same - it takes about 19-20s just until the first LED comes on, sitting there with the RIGOL logo on the screen. Then it takes still some 14-15s until the trace comes up.

For the record, it is a board 0.1.1, DS1074Z, fw. 00.04.02 SP4 shown by the System Info.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 04, 2015, 11:33:26 pm
It looks to me like they are doing something to make the traces more visible when overlapped. If that's the case it would be nice to disable it.

I don't mean the sometimes strange display if all channels are enabled and nothing is connected. Just the offset from a single channel relative to the 0V center line.

Attached are three (lousy, since i don't have it connected to the computer) images of what i mean. The amount of offset changes slightly depending on what V/div setting is used, but generally the offset is never so that the trace, when no input is applied, is centered around the 0V center line.

Am i wrong in thinking that it should be indeed centered? I'd say it should be centered, since i would expect the noise to be distributed equally above and below 0V.

Greetings,

Chris

On mine channels 1 and 4 are similar sitting slightly above center (but still on) the zero graticule. Channels 2 and 3 are the same but slightly below center. I've run the cal 3 times and each time it varies slightly but the pairings are the same. Coupling does not matter nor does a grounded bnc or probe.

I used the cursor to locate the zero graticule and just left it in place.

All I can say is that it varies after each cal.

You would expect it to hover around the zero graticule perfectly just after a cal. That's not to say that will stay that way for a significant time.

Even so, good to know.   

I did do one cal with some shielded bnc caps. Although you could probably argue a slightly (very slightly) better result visibly I wouldn't call it that way. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 04, 2015, 11:34:20 pm
Very different, is it constant? Was the firmware update time excessive? Mine firmware install was under 2 minutes.

Yes, it is constant, same thing on every boot. The firmware update was fairly smooth and quick, no problems.

I am going to try to reset all the options and re-install them, perhaps the new firmware doesn't like something there.

Did you use DSER?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janoc on January 04, 2015, 11:49:29 pm
Quote from: pickle9000 link=topic=36920.msg580549#msg580549
Did you use DSER?

Yep, actually DSFR - including the buggy 500uV option, that's why I wanted to try to get rid of all the installed options and reset it back as it was. I didn't realize that I had that on originally.

But even after removing all the options using the :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall command, rebooting, reflashing the firmware again the scope still boots in the same ~35 seconds, with just the default trial versions of the options.

As I said before, it is not a big deal, but it is certainly an unexpected thing to find after a firmware update!  :-BROKE

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mamalala on January 04, 2015, 11:55:10 pm
On mine channels 1 and 4 are similar sitting slightly above center (but still on) the zero graticule. Channels 2 and 3 are the same but slightly below center. I've run the cal 3 times and each time it varies slightly but the pairings are the same. Coupling does not matter nor does a grounded bnc or probe.

Interresting. On my unit they are always above the center line, and all pretty much about the same amount. Onlly if i turn on all channels it appears as if one trace is more towards the center line.

Ah well, as mentioned, not a deal breaker by a long shot. Just strange...

Greetings,

Chris
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on January 05, 2015, 12:10:36 am
But even after removing all the options using the :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall command, rebooting, reflashing the firmware again the scope still boots in the same ~35 seconds, with just the default trial versions of the options.
Just a guess that long time is for PLL to lock?

Also ,set to 500s/div and watch the zero drift at power on.   my DS2000 takes 30 minutes to be stable
And use averaging.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janoc on January 05, 2015, 12:07:13 pm
Just a guess that long time is for PLL to lock?

That looks more like the power on self-tests taking ages to me - it isn't a single delay, but multiple stages that take about 2x as long than they did before.

Quote
Also ,set to 500s/div and watch the zero drift at power on.   my DS2000 takes 30 minutes to be stable
And use averaging.

Mine drifts too, but I guess that is normal - that's why you should always get the instrument up to temp first before taking any serious measurements with it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on January 05, 2015, 12:23:54 pm

But even after removing all the options using the :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall command, rebooting, reflashing the firmware again the scope still boots in the same ~35 seconds, with just the default trial versions of the options.


I've found a slight variability in bootup time averaging around 22 seconds, but nothing as long as 34 seconds.  Did you have anything plugged into the LAN and or USB ports, it might be trying to look for files, etc. during the bootup?  Did you try to do a factory reset sequence?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on January 05, 2015, 02:30:03 pm
Ah well, as mentioned, not a deal breaker by a long shot. Just strange...
Since Rigol uses an analog switch instead of a reed switch or relay, one possibility is that the ground offset comes from the analog switch having slightly different offset voltages on its ground and signal inputs. In that case, Rigol would need to provide a manual ground calibration option - either let people manually tell the scope how far out it is to set the offset or let the user initiate a manual auto-cal using the open/shorted inputs instead of the internally analog-switched ground.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mamalala on January 05, 2015, 03:01:01 pm
Ah well, as mentioned, not a deal breaker by a long shot. Just strange...
Since Rigol uses an analog switch instead of a reed switch or relay, one possibility is that the ground offset comes from the analog switch having slightly different offset voltages on its ground and signal inputs. In that case, Rigol would need to provide a manual ground calibration option - either let people manually tell the scope how far out it is to set the offset or let the user initiate a manual auto-cal using the open/shorted inputs instead of the internally analog-switched ground.

Well, for one, the offset is already visible during the auto-cal. That is, even during that procedure the trace is never centered on the 0V line. And then, there is always an offset, regardless of the V/div setting (although it is slightly different depending on the V/div setting), and on all channels, so it's not just a matter of the auto-cal only adjusting at a specific V/dev setting correctly, then re-using that value so that other settings show it.

They could simply add another step to the auto-cal routine: for each V/div setting, and for each channel, take a meassurement with a sufficiently deep memory setting, average it out to get the offset, and store that. This should result in the traces being centered around the 0V centerline as good as possible.

Or as you said, let the user define a manual offset calibration for each V/div and channel setting.

I'm wondering if this issue is only present on the DS1000Z series, or if other model ranges from Rigol have it too.

Greetings,

Chris
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: beNative on January 07, 2015, 11:15:56 am
Upgrade worked fine for me and did NOT kill the upgrades.

LOVE the new EXTRA LARGE measurement font O0

That's right! It looks to me that the the engineers at Rigol have watched Dave's EEVBLOG review  :-+ !

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=128307)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: El-for-dummies on January 09, 2015, 09:15:13 am
Hello All !
I'm a newbie and I won't spend much of your pro-time asking stupid questions.
I unlocked my Rigol DS1054z (with the DSER-key) and all, the now DS1104Z, options are officially installed, including a bandwidth of 100M. However, the timescale doesn't go below 5.00 ns. Can anybody confirm that this should? And if so, down to what? My scope measures the signal of a 125MHz crystal fine.
Also this morning I installed the new firmware (00.04.02.SP4) and the jitter at a 10MHz sinus-signal is gone. Boot-time seems pretty much the same, around 22 sec and all buttons respond well  :-+
So, my only (stupid?) question remains, has the unlock made my scope a 100MHz?
EEVblog is very valuable indeed!! Thank you ALL  :clap:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on January 09, 2015, 09:23:51 am
However, the timescale doesn't go below 5.00 ns.

That is ok. It doesn't go below 5ns after the "upgrade".

So, my only (stupid?) question remains, has the unlock made my scope a 100MHz?

Yes, you can see it with "Utility -> System -> System Info" It should show now "Model: DS1104z"
With the new firmware you can also have a look in: "Utility -> Options -> Installed". In the last row it should show now "Bandwith 100M".

Have fun!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: El-for-dummies on January 09, 2015, 10:00:48 am
Thanks for the swift answer. Yes it shows DS1104z and a bandwidth of 100M. It did already after the DSER-unlock and it still does after the 00.04.02.SP4 firmware upgrade. So the FW-upgrade doesn't effect the DSER-unlock.
Upgrading the 00.04.02.SP4 went very smooth, unfortunately I didn't time it, but well within 3 min.
As you can guess; I'm a happy camper with my full blown new jitter-"free" DS1054z DS1104z  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Solder_Junkie on January 09, 2015, 04:45:26 pm
I've been playing with my 1054Z again today, it's a plain vanilla one, not hacked to behave as a 1104Z. I'm running the latest firmware and have no trigger jitter.

The bandwidth has been re-measured using a 50 terminator and good 50 Ohm coax, the signal source being a commercial grade signal generator. Previously I got close to 100 MHz at the 3 dB points (Voltage drop to 0.707 of the level at 10 MHz).

The result was virtually the same. I could also use the scope to more than 200 MHz without the waveform distorting. However if I enabled all four channels and viewed a sine wave, the waveform mysteriously dropped to 50 MHz for a 200 MHz input. The displayed frequency and the period of the waveform both equated to a 50 MHz signal!

Another odd effect is to input a sine wave signal of around 250 MHz with just Ch 1 in use. Switch from a vector display to "dots" and the sine wave breaks up. It doesn't if you repeat the experiment at 100 MHz...

I also compared the rise time of a fairly ordinary square wave, both with a supplied x10 probe and via a 50 Ohm terminated coax (as above).

The rise time on the probe measured 18 nS, on the terminated coax lead it was 8 nS. I don't know if that indicates a mediocre probe, or a sloppy way to view a square wave.

OK, so I am pushing the scope beyond its limit, but interesting to see what happens.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on January 09, 2015, 04:52:06 pm
I could also use the scope to more than 200 MHz without the waveform distorting. However if I enabled all four channels and viewed a sine wave, the waveform mysteriously dropped to 50 MHz for a 200 MHz input. The displayed frequency and the period of the waveform both equated to a 50 MHz signal!


OK, so I am pushing the scope beyond its limit, but interesting to see what happens.
Nothing mysterious going on there.. With all 4 channels on the sampling rate is only 250 MSa/s. So your 200 MHz input is way above Nyquist. What you see is aliasing: 250 MSa/s - 200 MHz = ... 50 MHz!
With 4 channels on all components above abt 100 MHz will cause aliasing...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 09, 2015, 06:05:02 pm

Stand Alone Logging/ Recording.

I understand that this series has no onboard RTC or Date Generator,
so I would assume that for stand alone logging it simply allocate's a
sequential record number to the triggered event, or wait's for a file
name to be manually entered, I have no clue as to what take's place.

I expect that these unit's are a whole different monster when connected
to the PC Software and PC Clock, but my question relates to offline use.


Sequential file saving of waveforms is the norm. As for time stamping the file date on mine is 11-1-2014 1:00PM for all files. Time stamping is normally done on a PC by the OS so that should not be a problem there.

One feature I really like is the quickprint button, you set up the file format and type ahead of time and then just his the one button to save the file. It works really well and is very handy for documentation.

As for buy it now or later, I purchased before the jitter issue was solved. In fact after the first failed revision (beta) release. Even with the jitter issue it was well worth the money. The triggering variations on the unit work really well and for me that has turned out to be the best feature so far. Seriously it's amazing what you get for the money.   

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on January 09, 2015, 07:25:32 pm

Stand Alone Logging/ Recording.

I understand that this series has no onboard RTC or Date Generator,
so I would assume that for stand alone logging it simply allocate's a
sequential record number to the triggered event, or wait's for a file
name to be manually entered, I have no clue as to what take's place.

I expect that these unit's are a whole different monster when connected
to the PC Software and PC Clock, but my question relates to offline use.


Sequential file saving of waveforms is the norm. As for time stamping the file date on mine is 11-1-2014 1:00PM for all files. Time stamping is normally done on a PC by the OS so that should not be a problem there.

One feature I really like is the quickprint button, you set up the file format and type ahead of time and then just his the one button to save the file. It works really well and is very handy for documentation.

As for buy it now or later, I purchased before the jitter issue was solved. In fact after the first failed revision (beta) release. Even with the jitter issue it was well worth the money. The triggering variations on the unit work really well and for me that has turned out to be the best feature so far. Seriously it's amazing what you get for the money.   

When I read this question for my eyes it looks more like segmented memory acquire (but also about time stamp file when stored to example USB stick)

As far as I know (with my DS1074Z) it do not have segment (frame) time stamps. Segment number is sequential number but afterward do not know if there is 100us or 100s between two acquired segment.

When Siglent DS2000 acquire max 400000 segment in second every segment have real  time stamp with us resolution.

Attached image from Siglent SDS2000 where is recorded frames (segments). in image selected one acquired segment and there can see this segment timestamp (and timestamps also previous and next segment)
This is one important feature in segmented memory acquire.


Totally other thing is time stamp when some waveform have stored to USB or captured.

Example is just for what I think is his question but I'm perhaps wrong.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 09, 2015, 11:05:36 pm

Stand Alone Logging/ Recording.

I understand that this series has no onboard RTC or Date Generator,so I would assume that for stand alone logging it simply allocate's a sequential record number to the triggered event, or wait's for a file name to be manually entered, I have no clue as to what take's place.

I expect that these unit's are a whole different monster when connected to the PC Software and PC Clock, but my question relates to offline use.


Sequential file saving of waveforms is the norm. As for time stamping the file date on mine is 11-1-2014 1:00PM for all files. Time stamping is normally done on a PC by the OS so that should not be a problem there.


Thanks to pickle9000,

Was that date stamp you referred to a folder that you created and then addressed with your own label, and if so would that folder then contain the sequential waveform events that can be called up localy on the scope without PC connection. The manual get's a bit confusing for me at this point in reference to recall of waveforms and setup's.

Thanks to rf-loop

The image that you provided for the Siglent was ideal, date, time stamp and events within those time stamps, I dont know how the DS-1054z displays the event log although I did see it in a video, I can't remember if it was Dave's, Connor Wolfe's, Echen's, the list goes on and on.

Again Many Thanks

Muttley
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 10, 2015, 02:22:37 am



Sequential file saving of waveforms is the norm. As for time stamping the file date on mine is 11-1-2014 1:00PM for all files. Time stamping is normally done on a PC by the OS so that should not be a problem there.


Thanks to pickle9000,

Was that date stamp you refered to a folder that you created and then addressed with
your own label, and if so would that folder then contain the sequential waveform events
that can be called up localy on the scope without PC connection.

The manual get's a bit confusing for me at this point
in referance to recall of waveforms and setup's.

Thanks to rf-loop

The image that you provided for the Siglent was ideal, date, time stamp and
events within those time stamps, I dont know how the DS-1054z display's
the event log although I did see it in a video.

I cant remember if it was Dave's, Connor Wolfe's, Echen's, the list goes on and on.

Again Many Thanks

Muttley

- There is no option to modify the date created/modified information it will always be the same.
- You can include date and time in the filename but that is not the same thing.
- The quickprint button sends the current screen image to the last used folder. Type is selectable in the storage area.
- All other storage types, setups, memory dumps and so on can be saved from the storage menu. Certain items (such as setups) can be loaded from the same area.
- None of the saved items have date and time created/saved in the body of the file.

The only real option is to do the following.

- Choose save (whatever item) from the storage menu. Add date time information as part of the filename.

Example

Setup01 15JUN2015 5pm.stp

The save load system is very easy to use, just pick and go. 
 

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on January 10, 2015, 11:08:55 am
As far as I know (with my DS1074Z) it do not have segment (frame) time stamps. Segment number is sequential number but afterward do not know if there is 100us or 100s between two acquired segment.

Yes, that is correct.  (and disappointing, but understandable)

Quote
When Siglent DS2000 acquire max 400000 segment in second every segment have real  time stamp with us resolution.

The uSec timestamps on the SDS2000 are excellent.  Not only that it has them, at good resolution, but also in how they're displayed and navigated.

However, the SDS2000 does not capture 400,000 segments.  It's maximum is 80,000 segments (frames).

Lastly, the 4-channel SDS2000 unit costs 3x as much as the Rigol you're comparing it against, so the fact that the 1000z has more limitations is only to be expected.  Thus it's harder to criticize on that basis.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on January 10, 2015, 11:39:59 am
Lastly, the 4-channel SDS2000 unit costs 3x as much as the Rigol you're comparing it against, so the fact that the 1000z has more limitations is only to be expected.  Thus it's harder to criticize on that basis.
There's also 4 times the sampling available with 2 or 4 channels used with the SDS2000.  ;)
Also a 300+ MHz front end.
The HW is very different and price or spec comparison is not appropriate between 1054Z & 2000 series Siglent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on January 10, 2015, 01:47:03 pm
As far as I know (with my DS1074Z) it do not have segment (frame) time stamps. Segment number is sequential number but afterward do not know if there is 100us or 100s between two acquired segment.

Yes, that is correct.  (and disappointing, but understandable)

Quote
When Siglent DS2000 acquire max 400000 segment in second every segment have real  time stamp with us resolution.

The uSec timestamps on the SDS2000 are excellent.  Not only that it has them, at good resolution, but also in how they're displayed and navigated.

However, the SDS2000 does not capture 400,000 segments.  It's maximum is 80,000 segments (frames).

Lastly, the 4-channel SDS2000 unit costs 3x as much as the Rigol you're comparing it against, so the fact that the 1000z has more limitations is only to be expected.  Thus it's harder to criticize on that basis.

Yes, 80000 segments are maximum. 
Measured maximum speed is 413000 segments/s (413k "segments" "frames" "waveforms" or how want name these).  And "400000 segment in second" was just for it.

And yes, this scope is not comparable with DS1000Z in its price class. SDS2074 MSRP (VAT 0) is EUR 990 and for SDS2304  EUR 2369.

It was only for example about time stampswhat was in original question.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Solder_Junkie on January 10, 2015, 03:39:24 pm

BTW: its on firmware 4.02.SP3 and board version jumps between 0.1.1 and 0.2.1 :D
There is a later f/w version to cure the trigger jitter, it will become SP4 after the update
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Crow on January 14, 2015, 12:43:37 pm
Hi everyone  :)

Just got my new DS1054z today, did a quick test to see if everything is working and of course it has ;)
Then i was trying to do a little "upgrade" via the DSER key and the known website and it dosent work, all it says is "Invalid Licens"  :-\

It already has the Newest Firmware 4.02.SP4 factory installed and the Board Version jumps from 0.2.2 to 0.1.1  :-\
as you can see on the Screenshot

Does anyone have the same Problem "Upgrading" his new Scope ?

Thx for all the Replys ;)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Solder_Junkie on January 14, 2015, 03:17:28 pm
Mine with f/w 4.02 SP4 took the licence keys OK.

I only did the memory and triggering options. Beware of the 100 MHz option as it doesn't look to be reversible in case of needing to return the scope under warranty.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Crow on January 14, 2015, 06:54:11 pm
I will try it later because its locked up at the moment.....
I tryed too much invalid keys :-X :-\
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 14, 2015, 08:49:27 pm
Hi everyone  :)

Just got my new DS1054z today, did a quick test to see if everything is working and of course it has ;)
Then i was trying to do a little "upgrade" via the DSER key and the known website and it dosent work, all it says is "Invalid Licens"  :-\

It already has the Newest Firmware 4.02.SP4 factory installed and the Board Version jumps from 0.2.2 to 0.1.1  :-\
as you can see on the Screenshot

Does anyone have the same Problem "Upgrading" his new Scope ?

Thx for all the Replys ;)

I think Lightages had a similar issue and when he hit the button a 4-5 times on the code gen it gave him another code and that solved the issue. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Crow on January 14, 2015, 08:52:46 pm
THX for your Reply :)

I will try the Windows Programm if the Scope isnt locked anymore. Got a message that the programm itself works more stable than the Website :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Crow on January 15, 2015, 09:58:26 am
Good News for me :D

i used the Tool and the first Code Successfully worked  :-+

Thanks for all the Tips and Hints and of Course for the Amazing work  :-+ :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bzzz on January 15, 2015, 11:15:45 pm
It already has the Newest Firmware 4.02.SP4 factory installed and the Board Version jumps from 0.2.2 to 0.1.1  :-\
as you can see on the Screenshot

Interesting. I got mine the same day from Batronix, but it has SP3 installed. Haven't tried much yet, I lack cables and adapters at home, and a (already shipped) function generator for jitter bug testing. And, guess what, my university chair of physics (where I left it for the moment) doesn't even have a function generator at all. But µA meters and Lock-In amps that are for sure much older than I am and must have cost a fortune...yeah, priorities  ;D
Anyways, I hope I have more time next week, so that I can assemble the FG085 and try some stuff at home. Hope that's enough for jitter testing - if not, I don't care for the moment, I have no plans for projects in the MHz+ regime yet. Same goes for the Riglol upgrades, I don't need pirated keys for stuff that I'm not even using. Not even sure if I unlock the 100 MHz one day, even if that's not an upgrade that Rigol offers for cash.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: fremen67 on January 15, 2015, 11:17:54 pm
Hi all,
Maybe interesting for those living (or working) in Germany: I received my DS1054z yesterday (10 days for the delivery). I bought it at innet24.de through meinpaket.de with a 7% discount. I checked today and it's now 5% (5SPAREN code)

http://www.meinpaket.de/de/rigol-ds1054z--digital-speicheroszilloskop-50-mhz-4-kanaele-1-gs-s-abtastrate-30-000-wfms-s/p682293255/?traffic_source=5SPAREN&showTellaFriend=false (http://www.meinpaket.de/de/rigol-ds1054z--digital-speicheroszilloskop-50-mhz-4-kanaele-1-gs-s-abtastrate-30-000-wfms-s/p682293255/?traffic_source=5SPAREN&showTellaFriend=false)

A strange thing I noticed is the frequency counter that was oscillating around 500 - 700Hz on the probe adjustment signal ...
I updated the firmware from SP3 to SP4 and don't see the problem anymore. It is now locked to 1.00001 kHz ... Did someone else see this?

Edit: my first impressions:
- the screen does not look as clear as my Hnntek MSO (kind of blury) but still OK
- the fan definitely needs a replacement
- I find the auto adjustement quite slow
- New fonts in SP4 are perfects!
- A lot of options and functionnalities.. but that was not a surprise  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on January 16, 2015, 03:27:19 am
>Was Dave just having a bad PC day with the software or is this nightmare for real ?

The software works fine for me.  And fellow eevblog forum member Alessandro's software he is writing for the Rigol is just fantastic.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z200040006000-waveform-capture-utility/msg570679/#msg570679 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z200040006000-waveform-capture-utility/msg570679/#msg570679)


I think the problem is Dave already had a conflicting set of drivers etc.. from the Agilent scope.  Probably needed to do a total uninstall of the other scopes software/drivers/etc before starting.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Solder_Junkie on January 16, 2015, 04:25:32 pm
Anyone know if the 100 MHz hack is reversible? From what I recall, it changes the model type and doesn't uninstall using the uninstall all command.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on January 16, 2015, 07:01:15 pm
Anyone know if the 100 MHz hack is reversible? From what I recall, it changes the model type and doesn't uninstall using the uninstall all command.

Yes there are some commands you can execute from the ultravision software command interface that will delete the key. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Solder_Junkie on January 16, 2015, 08:57:38 pm
Yes there are some commands you can execute from the ultravision software command interface that will delete the key.
Any clue as to which command will remove it? There had been earlier comments that "uninstall all" didn't remove it, as it changed the model to 1104.

I am reluctant to try it without a way back -in case it needs returning under warranty...

Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on January 16, 2015, 09:12:36 pm
Any clue as to which command will remove it?

For God's sake  ::)

Search -> scpi command uninstall

Or download the pdf manual and use the search funktion there, please.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Solder_Junkie on January 16, 2015, 09:21:27 pm

For God's sake  ::)

Search -> scpi command uninstall

Or download the pdf manual and use the search funktion there, please.
Except it has been previously reported that the 100 MHz mod changed the model number and wasn't reversible by "uninstall". Do you know if that is the case, or not?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on January 16, 2015, 11:44:35 pm
Argh- Tequipment just re-updated the ship date on my 1054Z from the 20th to the 26th.

I wish there was a 4 channel scope in the DS2XXX series for < $1k. The low price on the 1054Z is making it hard for Rigol to keep up with demand.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: HighResolution on January 17, 2015, 12:49:55 am
Argh- Tequipment just re-updated the ship date on my 1054Z from the 20th to the 26th.

I wish there was a 4 channel scope in the DS2XXX series for < $1k. The low price on the 1054Z is making it hard for Rigol to keep up with demand.

Yeah I got the same email today, sucks.  I actually got excited at first, thought they might have shipped it out today.

Its probably only a slight delay as I am sure the scopes have been in transit now for some time.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 17, 2015, 01:38:10 am
Argh- Tequipment just re-updated the ship date on my 1054Z from the 20th to the 26th.

I wish there was a 4 channel scope in the DS2XXX series for < $1k. The low price on the 1054Z is making it hard for Rigol to keep up with demand.

Yeah I got the same email today, sucks.  I actually got excited at first, thought they might have shipped it out today.

Its probably only a slight delay as I am sure the scopes have been in transit now for some time.

My order was Nov 10 arrived Jan 2 Tequipment, shipped to Canada so 6ish weeks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mandragora on January 17, 2015, 02:17:23 pm
Hello, I am wondering if anyone tested 500uV after SP4.
Maybe Rigol fixed this problem.

Could anyone test it if it is possible?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BlueBill on January 17, 2015, 04:12:01 pm
Good News for me :D

i used the Tool and the first Code Successfully worked  :-+

Thanks for all the Tips and Hints and of Course for the Amazing work  :-+ :-+

I'm getting a DS1054z at the end of the month, what Windows tool are you referring to? Ultra Sigma?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: keninvic on January 17, 2015, 04:19:04 pm
Argh- Tequipment just re-updated the ship date on my 1054Z from the 20th to the 26th.

I wish there was a 4 channel scope in the DS2XXX series for < $1k. The low price on the 1054Z is making it hard for Rigol to keep up with demand.

I am on that list too, delayed till 26th.  Are the Rigols purchased from TEquipment  shipped from Rigol in Beaverton, OR or NJ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JDubU on January 17, 2015, 04:46:34 pm
I am on that list too, delayed till 26th.  Are the Rigols purchased from TEquipment  shipped from Rigol in Beaverton, OR or NJ?

My DS2072 was shipped from NJ.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on January 17, 2015, 05:16:28 pm
  Are the Rigols purchased from TEquipment  shipped from Rigol in Beaverton, OR or NJ?
My DS2072 was shipped from NJ.
But you may have to request tracking # once you see complete order status at TE, 7 days NJ to WA
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on January 17, 2015, 08:51:38 pm
Hello, I am wondering if anyone tested 500uV after SP4.
Maybe Rigol fixed this problem.

Could anyone test it if it is possible?

 500uV is for another Rigol scope, the 1054z does not have that capability.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark on January 23, 2015, 05:45:00 pm
Well it looks like I was very lucky to get the last one from Batronix, their website is now showing "end of March / beginning of April".  Ordered  on Sunday and received on Thursday, excellent service!  So far I'm blown away with the whole feel of the scope, for the price it is unbeatable.    The unlock code worked a like a charm first time, so I'm even happier. 
eevblog has cost me a small fortune! 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CrashO on January 23, 2015, 06:10:27 pm
Well it looks like I was very lucky to get the last one from Batronix, their website is now showing "end of March / beginning of April".  Ordered  on Sunday and received on Thursday, excellent service! 
Same here. Ordered Sunday (22:53) and received it on Thursday in The Netherlands  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on January 23, 2015, 06:22:43 pm
Argh- Tequipment just re-updated the ship date on my 1054Z from the 20th to the 26th.

I wish there was a 4 channel scope in the DS2XXX series for < $1k. The low price on the 1054Z is making it hard for Rigol to keep up with demand.

Yeah I got the same email today, sucks.  I actually got excited at first, thought they might have shipped it out today.

Its probably only a slight delay as I am sure the scopes have been in transit now for some time.

They finalized the pre-auth on my credit card yesterday, so I have been fully charged now. I hope this means that the date will not get pushed out again. :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on January 23, 2015, 08:02:02 pm
We got 383 units in yesterday.  They started shipping today but most will ship monday.  We will have 110 left for stock after everything ships!  This is the 1st time we have had stock since it was launched.

Best Regards,
Evan
TEquipment.NET
http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aroby on January 23, 2015, 08:51:09 pm
We got 383 units in yesterday.  They started shipping today but most will ship monday.  We will have 110 left for stock after everything ships!  This is the 1st time we have had stock since it was launched.

Best Regards,
Evan
TEquipment.NET
http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/)

Amazing numbers for an oscilloscope!  Plus, I ordered one today (before reading this) so that I could get in the queue.  Sounds like I may not have to wait too long ...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Spyke on January 23, 2015, 08:59:53 pm
Mine shipped today too, my first ever scope (unless a crappy dso-quad counts :-DD).
Can anyone that gets theirs post the firmware ver/board rev of these freshly made scopes? Wonder if the code generators to unlock all features still work...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BlackLabelSix on January 26, 2015, 12:23:53 am
Ordered one last night, hopefully I can get in on this batch, but if not from what I am reading it will be worth the wait  8)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on January 26, 2015, 12:46:46 am
Wonder if the code generators to unlock all features still work...
They still work with the latest firmware.

Might take a few tries before you get your unlock code though (high traffic load).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Zandor on January 26, 2015, 03:40:48 am
I ordered one also.  Can't wait to do some work with it.  :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Yago on January 26, 2015, 08:37:38 am
A bit annoying that I ordered from Rigol UK and yet the wait is still said to be at another month!

Just shot them an Email to see, might just order elsewhere and pay a bit extra for shipping.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: PTR_1275 on January 26, 2015, 09:22:15 am
I ordered mine through emona last week and it should be here end of this week. I'm pretty excited to get one, it's my first DSO, the current scope is a trusty 20mhz analog scope that will take a different position on the shelf soon. I also orders a dp832 power supply
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on January 26, 2015, 01:11:45 pm
A bit annoying that I ordered from Rigol UK and yet the wait is still said to be at another month!

Just shot them an Email to see, might just order elsewhere and pay a bit extra for shipping.

In case anyone is misled by the name, Rigol do not have a UK operation - their European branch office is in Germany.

Rigol UK is just a trading name for Telonic Instruments Ltd, who are a UK-based Rigol distributor.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Yago on January 26, 2015, 01:47:06 pm
A bit annoying that I ordered from Rigol UK and yet the wait is still said to be at another month!

Just shot them an Email to see, might just order elsewhere and pay a bit extra for shipping.

In case anyone is misled by the name, Rigol do not have a UK operation - their European branch office is in Germany.

Rigol UK is just a trading name for Telonic Instruments Ltd, who are a UK-based Rigol distributor.

Thanks Roly, wish I had spotted that myself!
Ah well, I whinged at them a little and they said two weeks.
I can wait that much further.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jetro on January 27, 2015, 07:38:35 pm

For God's sake  ::)

Search -> scpi command uninstall

Or download the pdf manual and use the search funktion there, please.
Except it has been previously reported that the 100 MHz mod changed the model number and wasn't reversible by "uninstall". Do you know if that is the case, or not?

I can confirm all options, 100MHz included  :-+ are reversible on sp3. Model number is 1054z after uninstall.

Like hammy statet, use the scpi command ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" in the SCPI control panel of ultra sigma.
I can switch them on and off no probs no power cycle needed.

cu jetro
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: drakke on January 27, 2015, 08:34:39 pm
I can confirm all options, 100MHz included  :-+ are reversible on sp3. Model number is 1054z after uninstall.

Like hammy statet, use the scpi command ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" in the SCPI control panel of ultra sigma.
I can switch them on and off no probs no power cycle needed.

All these current scopes are hardware identical to the originals ones, right?
Just the firmware has been upgraded?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Dave Turner on January 27, 2015, 09:13:41 pm
Yago - I bought my DS1074Z-S & DP832 from Telonic in November '13 during the DP832 issues highlighted by Dave J. I have no connection with them other than that transaction. I have rarely received better service than I did from them.

My experience with them is noted in this forum.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Yago on January 27, 2015, 09:38:19 pm
Yago - I bought my DS1074Z-S & DP832 from Telonic in November '13 during the DP832 issues highlighted by Dave J. I have no connection with them other than that transaction. I have rarely received better service than I did from them.

My experience with them is noted in this forum.

Thanks Dave, reassuring to know.
Getting itchy waiting for it now.

To be fare they are very quick at answering EMails, and I am quite skittish about online purchases at the best of times.

Thanks again :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Po6ept on January 29, 2015, 05:25:58 am
 
I ordered a DS1054Z yesterday morning from TEquipment.NET and they shipped it today.  Now to sell my DS1052E... 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: eneuro on January 29, 2015, 08:02:24 am
Need to upgrade my scope to hack latest Seek Thermal MPU code and this Rigol DS1054Z should be fine.

However, what those trial hours in installed options means?  ???
(http://s5.postimg.org/ue8mcfeuf/EEVBlog_704_Rigol_DS1054_Z_Oscilloscope_Feature.png)
Those features will expire and we have to pay extra or some kind of license was not installed in this review demo?  ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on January 29, 2015, 10:08:38 am
However, what those trial hours in installed options means?  ???

Those features will expire and we have to pay extra or some kind of license was not installed in this review demo?  ::)
They're software options available for the scope that have a limited time of activation. Once they expire, they're no longer usable until you purchase the license key.

That said, it can be hacked (here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1000z-serie-unlocking/msg491026/#msg491026)).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: eneuro on January 29, 2015, 01:52:41 pm
That said, it can be hacked (here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1000z-serie-unlocking/msg491026/#msg491026)).
Thank you for explaining this hack issue.
Why nowadays everything have to be... hacked to have features which should be available not only for a few hours after switching it on when purchasing this thing  ???

I forgot about trial software and license keys... more than 10 years ago when switched to Linux...
Is it possible to connect DS1054Z oscilloscope to Linux box somehow, because of Windows USB support looked very bad in this review?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aveekbh on January 29, 2015, 03:46:09 pm
Is it possible to connect DS1054Z oscilloscope to Linux box somehow, because of Windows USB support looked very bad in this review?

I placed an order with one of the suppliers in India. Hope to find out soon-ish about Linux support. :D

In terms of connectivity, I'm not holding too many hopes for USB, but LXI should work. Applications - that's another matter!

There is a thread here on Sigrok support - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-on-sigrok/, (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-on-sigrok/,) but it looks like it's not ready yet.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: eneuro on January 29, 2015, 04:26:13 pm
I'm not holding too many hopes for USB, but LXI should work. Applications - that's another matter!
I've forgot about LXI (LAN eXtensions for Instruments) and it looks like it should be quite easy and cool to automate some tasks with a few lines of code :-+
Remote controlling instruments using LXI (http://www.crazy-audio.com/2014/08/remote-controlling-instruments-using-lxi/)

The LXI command protocol is a simple text protocol over a TCP connection. That means you can even use the simple “telnet” command to control your instruments remotely.
....
 First, download the Programming Guide from Rigol.
....
Now, connect to the instrument using the telnet command line tool. The port on Rigol instruments is 5555, which is easy to remember.
...


Quote
$ telnet 192.168.1.126 5555
Trying 192.168.1.126...
Connected to 192.168.1.126.
Escape character is '^]'.
*IDN?
Rigol Technologies,DSA815,DSA8A154402661,00.01.07.00.01

Of course no need to use bloody telnet  for this connection while a few lines of code in C/C++ can setup such TCP connection and send whatever we want and as many times as we want and do what we want and write in our software  >:D

Found also this intro Using Linux to Control LXI Instruments Through TCP (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6717EN.pdf)  .

Here within a one night session someone was able write simple app using usbtmc  to plot Rigol DS1052E channel Controlling a Rigol (DS1052E) oscilloscope using Linux and Python (http://www.cibomahto.com/2010/04/controlling-a-rigol-oscilloscope-using-linux-and-python/) so maybe it could be done with USB, but LXI really looks very interesting, and since we have 4 channels in this quite nice Rigol DS1054Z  no software hacking needed, while I'd like to write my own software and make a few channels scanning and output data analysis, so the only concern is for the moment Programming Guide from Rigol for this DS1054Z scope?  :-BROKE
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aveekbh on January 29, 2015, 05:48:06 pm
So the only concern is for the moment Programming Guide from Rigol for this DS1054Z scope?  :-BROKE

I found a copy of the programming guide at http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: eneuro on January 29, 2015, 06:41:50 pm
@aveekbh
This is exactly what hungry Rigol programmer was looking for: 250 pages of cool staff and DS1054Z oscilloscope model included in this manual  :-+
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=133128]https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=133128)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Stupid Beard on January 29, 2015, 07:11:31 pm
Of course no need to use bloody telnet  for this connection while a few lines of code in C/C++ can setup such TCP connection and send whatever we want and as many times as we want and do what we want and write in our software  >:D

There's also https://github.com/applied-optics/vxi11 (https://github.com/applied-optics/vxi11), which has a C library, command line util and some python stuff I didn't look at. I don't know how good the lib is but it may be a reasonable start for the extremely lazy.

The command line app is a little bit irritating and seemed to sometimes get stuck infinitely waiting for a response from the scope, but did kind of work OK most of the time. It's a bit unfair to harp on the command line app though since it looks like it was thrown together really quickly as an example more than anything intended to be useful.

Of course, it's trivial to implement an LXI client from a command point of view so I'd probably not bother with the aforementioned lib. But figured I'd mention it in case you find it useful.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: eneuro on January 29, 2015, 08:46:19 pm
Of course, it's trivial to implement an LXI client from a command point of view so I'd probably not bother with the aforementioned lib.
When made a quick view into this manual above it looks like that LXI and USB (usbtc) uses the same SCPI comands, but also other control methods are mentioned:
Quote
You can control the oscilloscope remotely by sending SCPI commands via the PC software (Ultra Sigma)
provided by RIGOL. Besides, you can also control the instrument using the “Measurement &
Automation Explorer” of NI (National Instruments Corporation) or the “Agilent IO Libraries Suite” of
Agilent (Agilent Technologies, Inc.).
LXI looks like system independent while TCP is used.
It is interesting from performance point of view which one can be faster LXI or USB ?  ::)
This is some kind of standard ethernet card port from hardware point of view inside this DS1054Z oscilloscope (fast ethernet or maybe even gigabit) or something different?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Stupid Beard on January 30, 2015, 03:01:30 am
Of course, it's trivial to implement an LXI client from a command point of view so I'd probably not bother with the aforementioned lib.
When made a quick view into this manual above it looks like that LXI and USB (usbtc) uses the same SCPI comands, but also other control methods are mentioned:
Quote
You can control the oscilloscope remotely by sending SCPI commands via the PC software (Ultra Sigma)
provided by RIGOL. Besides, you can also control the instrument using the “Measurement &
Automation Explorer” of NI (National Instruments Corporation) or the “Agilent IO Libraries Suite” of
Agilent (Agilent Technologies, Inc.).
LXI looks like system independent while TCP is used.
It is interesting from performance point of view which one can be faster LXI or USB ?  ::)
This is some kind of standard ethernet card port from hardware point of view inside this DS1054Z oscilloscope (fast ethernet or maybe even gigabit) or something different?

The ethernet is 100mbit. I've not tested it, but from what I've read elsewhere it sounds like USB is a lot faster than ethernet and it's pretty slow in general. This only matters when downloading waveforms or using the record/replay thing.

The "other methods" you mention are all just alternative software that uses the same SCPI commands over LXI or USB.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kkessler on January 30, 2015, 03:43:44 am
I just received my new 1054Z from Tequipment, and it "upgraded" successfully to a 1104Z, and I really like it. 

I'm having trouble, though, with one thing.  I can't seem to figure out how to dump a recorded waveform to a CSV file on a thumb drive.  I've googled my fingers to a nub, and I see people complaining about how slow the process is, but I don't see any one saying how they actually did it.  Whenever I save, I only get one frame of the 5000 or so I have in recorded memory, and I select Datasrc as Memory, not Screen.  I've got sequence to ON, which I assumed would create a csv file sequentially numbered for each frame, but it does not ( I can really figure out what that does).

Does anyone know how to dump the entire recorded data into CSV file(s)?  Also, does anyone know what Sequence ON/OFF does?  It says "Press Sequence to choose whether to add the sequence number for the CSVfile. You can select “ON”or “OFF”and the default is “ON”(namely add the sequence number for the CSV file).", but that isn't all that informative.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jbryan2 on January 30, 2015, 05:37:51 am
Heh.  Just for fun I used telnet and :SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall [key] to turn on all the options on mine.  It took a minute to figure out that I had to remove the dashes from the key string, but I can turn everything on and off at will.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on January 30, 2015, 08:15:54 am
Does anyone know how to dump the entire recorded data into CSV file(s)?
One of the options in the Storage menu once you choose CVS format is Source: [Display|Memory], you need to select "Memory."

Saving a 6Mpts record to USB memory stick this way takes forever since you are looking at a 100+MB file and a USB stick write speed of about 150KB/s.

I tried exporting waveform data to CSV so I could import it in OpenOffice:Calc and do a DFT on it for power factor measurement. My first attempt was with 6Mpts but after the horrendously slow export and seeing how slow Calc is at dealing with 1M cells per channel, I decided to drop to 60k - sampling at over 1000xFs is already plenty overkill.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: eneuro on January 30, 2015, 09:48:38 am
Heh.  Just for fun I used telnet and :SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall [key] to turn on all the options on mine.
This screen looks much better now  >:D

This license [key] I guess is somehow connected with indyvidual hardware (eg. ethernet card MAC address, etc) and you of course payed fot it extra or was generated somehow by those mentioned hacking methods?  :-DD
Didn't look into details yet, so it is interesting how did you "guessed" this key  ;D

Anyway, it is easier to use classic keyboard to enter something than mess with OSD keyboards etc ...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janoc on January 30, 2015, 10:47:39 am
Does anyone know how to dump the entire recorded data into CSV file(s)?
One of the options in the Storage menu once you choose CVS format is Source: [Display|Memory], you need to select "Memory."

Saving a 6Mpts record to USB memory stick this way takes forever since you are looking at a 100+MB file and a USB stick write speed of about 150KB/s.


I tried exporting waveform data to CSV so I could import it in OpenOffice:Calc and do a DFT on it for power factor measurement. My first attempt was with 6Mpts but after the horrendously slow export and seeing how slow Calc is at dealing with 1M cells per channel, I decided to drop to 60k - sampling at over 1000xFs is already plenty overkill.

I have done that just this week, trying to do FFT on the data - dumping the entire memory took only a few seconds. On the other hand, I was not recording 6Mpts neither.

You can record the data as "waveform", that gives you a binary .wfm file that I believe was reverse engineered before, so that could be used too in a pinch.

There is also a way to download the memory content by USB, but I haven't played with that yet.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: inline on January 31, 2015, 02:49:41 am
So I ordered yesterday afternoon from Tequipment and got it delivered this morning...same State...pretty sweet.  I played with the scope a bit today and all is great, but had a few questions.  I'm coming from a 2 channel scope and noticed that the Rigol DS1054Z has no "External Trigger" input like my previous 2 channel scope.  Am I missing/not understanding why it's not there?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: c4757p on January 31, 2015, 02:52:12 am
External trigger is commonly omitted on four-channel scopes. Even the four-channel Tek scopes I've had don't have it. I guess it's seen as something of a hack to get a bit more performance out of an otherwise limited two-channel instrument...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on January 31, 2015, 03:55:53 am
External trigger is commonly omitted on four-channel scopes. Even the four-channel Tek scopes I've had don't have it. I guess it's seen as something of a hack to get a bit more performance out of an otherwise limited two-channel instrument...

Surprisingly Rigol's 1000B low-end, older, 4-channel series scopes have an external trigger input.

http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000b/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000b/)



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on January 31, 2015, 07:14:01 am
External trigger is commonly omitted on four-channel scopes. Even the four-channel Tek scopes I've had don't have it. I guess it's seen as something of a hack to get a bit more performance out of an otherwise limited two-channel instrument...

Oh yeah? Well my 547 with 1A4 has TWO external trigger inputs! Bahaha!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janoc on January 31, 2015, 02:15:44 pm
External trigger is commonly omitted on four-channel scopes. Even the four-channel Tek scopes I've had don't have it. I guess it's seen as something of a hack to get a bit more performance out of an otherwise limited two-channel instrument...

That's actually interesting, because the page 18 of the manual (from: http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/DS1000Z_UserGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/DS1000Z_UserGuide_EN.pdf)) says:

"Chapter 5 To Trigger the Oscilloscope
Introduce the trigger mode, trigger coupling, trigger holdoff, external trigger and various trigger types of the oscilloscope."

Of course, the chapter 5 doesn't describe external trigger! (and the instrument doesn't have one).

There are more such gems in the manual, e.g. the option to switch the SPI/I2C decoding source to "Memory" instead of just screen - the option does actually exists on the instrument, but is permanently greyed out.

On the other hand, if you have 4 channels, it is probably not a too big pain to simply use one of the channels for triggering. On a two channel scope it would have been more limiting.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kkessler on January 31, 2015, 04:17:33 pm
Does anyone know how to dump the entire recorded data into CSV file(s)?
One of the options in the Storage menu once you choose CVS format is Source: [Display|Memory], you need to select "Memory."

When I do that, I just get one frame.  For example, I set my memory depth to 12K, and when I record the waveform, I get some 5000 frames, of 12K points.  When I save to a CVS file and select memory, I get 1 CSV file with 12,000 points in it, not a csv file with 12K * 5000 points, or 5000 CSV files of 12K points.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on January 31, 2015, 07:39:14 pm
External trigger is commonly omitted on four-channel scopes. Even the four-channel Tek scopes I've had don't have it. I guess it's seen as something of a hack to get a bit more performance out of an otherwise limited two-channel instrument...
The Siglent SDS2000 series 2 & 4 Ch versions have an Ext trigger rear BNC as standard and it is available in menus for various uses.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on January 31, 2015, 08:32:01 pm
When I do that, I just get one frame.  For example, I set my memory depth to 12K, and when I record the waveform, I get some 5000 frames, of 12K points.  When I save to a CVS file and select memory, I get 1 CSV file with 12,000 points in it, not a csv file with 12K * 5000 points, or 5000 CSV files of 12K points.
I haven't tried messing with segmented memory yet. With the number of little things Rigol seems to have gotten wrong in the DS1000z, I would not be surprised if omitting to enable dumping segmented capture memory (at least without writing an SCPI/VISA app to walk through them and download them individually to a PC) was one of them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark_O on February 01, 2015, 08:54:51 am
Surprisingly Rigol's 1000B low-end, older, 4-channel series scopes have an external trigger input.

Yes, they do.  They also have a lo-rez 320x240 display, and a whopping 8k samples/channel.  ;)  And cost 3x as much!

I think losing the ExtTrig input was a worthwhile tradeoff.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on February 01, 2015, 09:43:09 am
External trigger is commonly omitted on four-channel scopes. Even the four-channel Tek scopes I've had don't have it. I guess it's seen as something of a hack to get a bit more performance out of an otherwise limited two-channel instrument...

Yes, that's always been the design intention of external trigger. It gets you extra functionality without the cost of a full brown front end.
Many old school 4 channel analog scopes like Tek and Kikusui would have have the extra 2 channel with limited analog front end functionality. e.g. just a two voltage level attenuator. Because front ends are expensive.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janoc on February 01, 2015, 12:37:23 pm
When I do that, I just get one frame.  For example, I set my memory depth to 12K, and when I record the waveform, I get some 5000 frames, of 12K points.  When I save to a CVS file and select memory, I get 1 CSV file with 12,000 points in it, not a csv file with 12K * 5000 points, or 5000 CSV files of 12K points.

Which is normal - if you set your memory depth to 12kpts, that means you are recording 12k samples and you get all those 12k samples in the CSV file, i.e. 12k number rows + 2 header lines.

I am not sure where did you get the idea about the 5000 * 12k points. It simply dumps either whatever is on the screen, if you select "Screen" as the source or the entire memory of the scope, if you select "Memory". There is no concept of "frames" there - what are you referring to?

Apropos, the "Sequence On/Off" makes the scope automatically append a number to the file name when you want to save next waveform, so you get "NewFile1.csv", "NewFile2.csv", etc. instead of always generating "NewFile.csv" as the default file name.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on February 01, 2015, 03:00:50 pm
I am not sure where did you get the idea about the 5000 * 12k points. It simply dumps either whatever is on the screen, if you select "Screen" as the source or the entire memory of the scope, if you select "Memory". There is no concept of "frames" there - what are you referring to?
I'm pretty much certain he was thinking about segmented memory recording. At 12k points per frame / segment / trigger event, that would be 500 waveforms to fill the 6Mpts memory per channel though.

I have not tried segmented memory yet but I'm guessing the memory dump function only dumps the currently selected segment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: accumulator on February 02, 2015, 05:11:22 am
I'm finally saying goodbye to my Tek boat anchor - does anyone know if the tequipment discount is still live and how to get one?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on February 02, 2015, 10:47:11 am
I'm finally saying goodbye to my Tek boat anchor - does anyone know if the tequipment discount is still live and how to get one?
PM sent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janoc on February 02, 2015, 04:26:55 pm
I'm pretty much certain he was thinking about segmented memory recording. At 12k points per frame / segment / trigger event, that would be 500 waveforms to fill the 6Mpts memory per channel though.

I have not tried segmented memory yet but I'm guessing the memory dump function only dumps the currently selected segment.

Hmm, I am not sure whether it is possible to dump the data recorded using the "Record" function of the scope as a CSV. I haven't played with that yet, though.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jidis on February 02, 2015, 11:00:44 pm
So....after a bit of back-and-forth it seems clear that the DS1054Z indeed has something like 100MHz bandwidth after inputting the codes.

What we really need is somebody who can do a test before/after, preferably with two scopes side by side.

I don't mean to change the subject, but how does the cutoff point for those specs typically work anyhow? I wondered a few months back as I've got an (unhacked) 50MHz 1052E here. I was trying to see how close to their labeled speed some random crystals were here and was somehow able to see the output of an 80MHz one. Is it normal for scopes to go that far past their frequency spec, or is 50 just the point where they should begin to lose something?

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: donmr on February 02, 2015, 11:20:33 pm
I don't mean to change the subject, but how does the cutoff point for those specs typically work anyhow? ...
Is it normal for scopes to go that far past their frequency spec, or is 50 just the point where they should begin to lose something?

Below the Nyquist limit of the sampling, the scope's signal level drops off at some rate determined by the input circuitry.  The standard is to specify the bandwidth as the frequency at which the signal is 3db down (1/2 of the power) from DC.  You can often see signals at higher frequencies, but with reduced magnitude.  And even at the BW freq. the signal is down by 3db so you can't measure the voltage accurately

Don
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jidis on February 02, 2015, 11:27:56 pm
Thanks Don!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Solder_Junkie on February 02, 2015, 11:45:40 pm
So....after a bit of back-and-forth it seems clear that the DS1054Z indeed has something like 100MHz bandwidth after inputting the codes.

What we really need is somebody who can do a test before/after, preferably with two scopes side by side.
I have a DS1054Z and a commercial grade Marconi RF signal generator that is flat within a dB or so to 512 MHz. Using a through 50 Ohm terminator on an "unhacked" 1054 and 50 Ohm coax, shows a -3dB bandwidth of between 95 and 98 MHz. Opening up the scope to mimic an 1104Z, with "100 MHz" bandwidth, gives a measured -3dB bandwidth in excess of 130 MHz. Individual scopes may vary, but my scope has well over it's specified bandwidth out of the box without hacking.

I forgot to add, the bandwidth varies a little depending on the level fed to the scope, however the differences in bandwidth between say 100 mV RMS and 1 V RMS are small.

The opened scope doesn't stop until you get up to the 400 MHz region, however the 1 GHz sample rate throws a low ball if you try to run more than one channel above 200 MHz.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tango17 on February 03, 2015, 09:05:41 pm
I'm planning to buy the DS1054Z. Is the tequipment/eev discount still available? Anyone have the code?

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: robrenz on February 03, 2015, 09:57:40 pm
PM SENT
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rgreenfield on February 04, 2015, 12:48:02 am
Looking to get one of these Rigol DS1054Z scopes.  Can someone pass along the discount code please?

Thanks!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Guni on February 04, 2015, 01:44:59 am
Search function is very useful or just reading few posts before  :)
A few posts per page on this thread are about discount code....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on February 04, 2015, 01:57:56 am
Search function is very useful or just reading few posts before  :)
A few posts per page on this thread are about discount code....
PM sent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on February 04, 2015, 01:00:02 pm
Looking to get one of these Rigol DS1054Z scopes.  Can someone pass along the discount code please?

Thanks!
PM sent
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: avvidclif on February 04, 2015, 01:28:04 pm
Search function is very useful or just reading few posts before  :)
A few posts per page on this thread are about discount code....

It doesn't help when every request shows PM sent instead of how to get it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: notaroketscientist on February 04, 2015, 02:16:44 pm
Hello, I am wondering if anyone tested 500uV after SP4.
Maybe Rigol fixed this problem.

Could anyone test it if it is possible?

 500uV is for another Rigol scope, the 1054z does not have that capability.

Well the 1054Z(hacked) I have has it or had it. I just upgraded the firmware to SP4 and while it is listed in the installed options it no longer works at all.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on February 04, 2015, 03:58:41 pm
Hello, I am wondering if anyone tested 500uV after SP4.
Maybe Rigol fixed this problem.

Could anyone test it if it is possible?

 500uV is for another Rigol scope, the 1054z does not have that capability.

Well the 1054Z(hacked) I have has it or had it. I just upgraded the firmware to SP4 and while it is listed in the installed options it no longer works at all.

No, you enabled the software to use a hardware function the scope does not have. Not the same thing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on February 04, 2015, 04:00:29 pm
500uV is for another Rigol scope, the 1054z does not have that capability.

Well the 1054Z(hacked) I have has it or had it. I just upgraded the firmware to SP4 and while it is listed in the installed options it no longer works at all.
As far as I know, the hacked 500µV range on the DS1000Z has never worked in the first place. If it "worked" for you at some point, it likely was a fluke. For most people, all they see is the channel going railed. Even if it had a usable 500µV range, the front-ends are already noisy enough at 1mV that 500µV would be mostly useless.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on February 04, 2015, 04:07:02 pm
I wrote a note on the 500uv setting here on the MSO1074Z, I assume it's similar to the DS1054Z: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg584005/#msg584005 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg584005/#msg584005)

Basically, there is usually a very large DC offset, I assume because it's never calibrated out, and the process itself looks like it just uses a lower ADC resolution rather than apply a different analog attenuation, so it's pretty noisy.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: notaroketscientist on February 04, 2015, 05:08:37 pm
It was unusable but it was there. It is no longer there. The DC offset and the high noise level were both present. I should add the presence of the 500uv range would come and go. Sometimes it was a visible option sometimes it wouldn't show up. I had been struggling with it because I am not smart enough to eliminate operator error. After completing the firmware update to SP4 it has completely disappeared. This specimen was delivered last week from the last batch TEquipment had and has the 1.1 hardware. Thanks for the information calibration. This forum is a treasure.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Masejoer on February 04, 2015, 05:36:34 pm
Can someone help me identify some behavior of my scope? I'm new to scopes, but was playing with my DS1054Z last night. Data plotting only occurs after the graph gets past the "0" y-axis. Let's say i set the time-scale to 10-seconds per segment. There are 6-segments to the left of the 0-Y line, and 6-segments to the right. With this time scale, I must wait 60-seconds before I see anything graphed. Once it passes the 0-Y, line everything on the left 6-segments instantly shows up, and the next 6-segments plot in realtime. Once the graphing gets to +60-Y, I must wait another 60-seconds before the graph is updated.

If I set the scale to 1-second per segment, I must wait 6 seconds before I see anything, then I get real-time data plotting for the next 6 seconds.

If I move the horizontal marker to the edge of the furthest-left segment, I get plotting in realtime across all 12-segments. I figured this was some setting I accidentally enabled somewhere, but I can't find such a feature.

Does anyone have any ideas? Is this just the way that this oscope works?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on February 04, 2015, 05:42:12 pm
If I set the scale to 1-second per segment, I must wait 6 seconds before I see anything, then I get real-time data plotting for the next 6 seconds.
If I move the horizontal marker to the edge of the furthest-left segment, I get plotting in realtime across all 12-segments. I figured this was some setting I accidentally enabled somewhere, but I can't find such a feature.
Does anyone have any ideas? Is this just the way that this oscope works?
Yes Display starts after trigger event
use Horizontal position(next to Scale) to move to the left , even off the display.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on February 04, 2015, 06:32:21 pm
500uV is for another Rigol scope, the 1054z does not have that capability.

Well the 1054Z(hacked) I have has it or had it. I just upgraded the firmware to SP4 and while it is listed in the installed options it no longer works at all.
As far as I know, the hacked 500µV range on the DS1000Z has never worked in the first place. If it "worked" for you at some point, it likely was a fluke. For most people, all they see is the channel going railed. Even if it had a usable 500µV range, the front-ends are already noisy enough at 1mV that 500µV would be mostly useless.

The software is used across many hardware versions. Rigol supplies the codes so opted to not include a "check" to see if the codes are applicable to particular hardware, that increases firmware size (bad). Using the key generator allows you to enable features in some cases that are not designed in but may appear to work. Rigol would never give a key out that is not designed for that bit of hardware (obviously) and that is the check.



 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Masejoer on February 04, 2015, 06:38:58 pm
Yes Display starts after trigger event
use Horizontal position(next to Scale) to move to the left , even off the display.

I thought I had triggering disabled, or it was possible to disable, but now it sounds like this is not the case? If I change the time scale, I'm forced to adjust the horizontal position again. Seems a bit annoying - it remembers everything but only draws it all once it reaches the horizontal position marker?

I plan on mostly using this unit for pinpointing inconsistent automobile electrical noise. I will be adjusting the scale often.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: electr_peter on February 04, 2015, 07:52:34 pm
Masejoer, behaviour you have described is consistent with slow time base and a trigger - there will be no trace until trigger happens which can take 6-60s or more. To show real time trace in slow time base:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Masejoer on February 04, 2015, 08:17:36 pm
Masejoer, behaviour you have described is consistent with slow time base and a trigger - there will be no trace until trigger happens which can take 6-60s or more. To show real time trace in slow time base:
  • enable "roll mode"
  • move trigger point to the left of the screen - it will show trace immediately after trigger
  • force single trigger manually

Thank you. Yeah, I saw "roll mode" working better. My buddy has an owon scope that doesn't do this, so I was a bit confused. I'm new to these things though, and last night was simply trying to learn the tool from practice and training videos. The real challenge will be figuring out how to most effectively capture electrical noise and isolate it to a source.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: davebkc on February 06, 2015, 12:22:07 am
It doesn't help when every request shows PM sent instead of how to get it.
True.  I was able to get it quickly by opening a chat session at the site.  I'm guessing there's a rule about posting it in the forum (maybe to encourage registration), but it's certainly not a closely guarded secret.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on February 06, 2015, 02:08:02 am
The point is that you need to be a member of the EEVBlog forums to get the discount. If the discount code is just openly advertised in the clear on the forum then anyone can see it and ask for the discount.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on February 06, 2015, 03:18:17 pm
The point is that you need to be a member of the EEVBlog forums to get the discount.

Not really, they don't check your membership card  :)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on February 06, 2015, 09:19:30 pm
Anyone have problems with the generated codes on the latest batch of DS1000z scopes? I had no problem, but a buddy of mine with a serial # only 80 higher (same batch of scopes) is getting invalid license. Wondering if the private key changed?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Crow on February 06, 2015, 09:33:50 pm
Anyone have problems with the generated codes on the latest batch of DS1000z scopes? I had no problem, but a buddy of mine with a serial # only 80 higher (same batch of scopes) is getting invalid license. Wondering if the private key changed?

Does he use the Website or the Programm itself ?
I had also Problems with the Website, that never gives me a Working key...  :(
But then i tried the Windows Programm and everything worked Perfect on the First try  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on February 06, 2015, 09:47:32 pm
Anyone have problems with the generated codes on the latest batch of DS1000z scopes? I had no problem, but a buddy of mine with a serial # only 80 higher (same batch of scopes) is getting invalid license. Wondering if the private key changed?

Does he use the Website or the Programm itself ?
I had also Problems with the Website, that never gives me a Working key...  :(
But then i tried the Windows Programm and everything worked Perfect on the First try  ;D

Tried both. Compiled from source and ran riglol on a windows box. It generated the same code as the 1.03d website.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Crow on February 06, 2015, 09:53:59 pm
Strange...
What Option did he tried ? The Full Option "DSER" ?

I first just tried the Recording Option and that workd great for me...
Maybe he can try that if not already had....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on February 06, 2015, 10:09:44 pm
Strange...
What Option did he tried ? The Full Option "DSER" ?

I first just tried the Recording Option and that workd great for me...
Maybe he can try that if not already had....

I asked the same- first he tried DSER, then DSFR just for the heck of it, then DSEA, and one of the others. All failed. On latest SP4 firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: cnielsen2006 on February 08, 2015, 05:01:15 pm
Doh! I'm the one who's codes weren't working. I guess I'm still in denial about my aging vision. Especially when discerning 6s from 8s on small screens.

Manged to get myself locked out for the 12 hours but I'm sure the new code I've generated from the corrected SN will work fine. Note for others that end up locked out that, like the trial clock, the 12 hours is 12 hours of running the scope, not 12 real world hours.

TY dadler & Crow
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aveekbh on February 08, 2015, 05:17:47 pm
I compiled the program on Linux and it worked. However, my unit is from November 2014, according to the calibration certificate.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: keninvic on February 08, 2015, 06:24:08 pm
Anyone have problems with the generated codes on the latest batch of DS1000z scopes? I had no problem, but a buddy of mine with a serial # only 80 higher (same batch of scopes) is getting invalid license. Wondering if the private key changed?

Did he try a few times, the web version doesnt necessarily spit out a working key 1st time,  but it definetely works.  it may take a few attempts, and use DSER.

Most have applied the key then installed SP4.   Has anyone else tried putting the DSER key in at SP4?

Does he use the Website or the Programm itself ?
I had also Problems with the Website, that never gives me a Working key...  :(
But then i tried the Windows Programm and everything worked Perfect on the First try  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on February 08, 2015, 06:46:57 pm
I used the online Riglol to generate the code for my DS1054Z and it worked on the first time.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on February 08, 2015, 08:16:16 pm
FYI I installed SP4 first, then applied DSER via the web script, and it worked the first time.

Funny that the incorrect code lock-out is scope run time. I suppose this makes sense because the scope does not have a RTC, so it just bangs the FRAM at a specified interval (10 seconds?). At least this was posted earlier as the mechanism for the trial countdown.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: filer on February 09, 2015, 09:59:48 am
hi, I got with soft version: 00.04.02.SP3. Then with DSER "upgrade", all ok. Web generator and downloaded soft gives same, no different. Then 00.04.02.SP4 update and still all options ok.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LightlyDoped on February 10, 2015, 12:44:53 am
Hi guys. First post, even though I've been lurking here for a few weeks. I just purchased this scope, and I'm very happy with it so far. It arrived with firmware version 04.02.SP3, and I updated the firmware to version SP4. At first when I installed the new firmware, the board version was shown as 0.2.3. Then I successfully unlocked the recommended options, and the board version changed to 0.2.2. Now, the board version is shown as 0.1.1 even though nothing has changed. Any idea why the scope can't seem to make up its mind?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on February 10, 2015, 02:13:07 am
At first when I installed the new firmware, the board version was shown as 0.2.3. Then I successfully unlocked the recommended options, and the board version changed to 0.2.2. Now, the board version is shown as 0.1.1 even though nothing has changed. Any idea why the scope can't seem to make up its mind?
Mine jumped around board revision numbers a few times before settling for 0.1.1 too, which is odd considering how the board version number is set by resistors on the PCB and should not change on their own.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bbjk7 on February 10, 2015, 10:09:44 pm
Hi guys,

I'm considering buying this scope in AUS. Where can I get the best price? I guess none of these "discount codes" would apply/be worth it for anyone in aus? Looking at eyou.com.au at the moment...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on February 10, 2015, 11:36:00 pm
Hi guys,

I'm considering buying this scope in AUS. Where can I get the best price? I guess none of these "discount codes" would apply/be worth it for anyone in aus? Looking at eyou.com.au at the moment...
Emona comes up a lot from other members in Australia. Worst case, you might compare both to TEquipment as well (they do ship internationally).

PM sent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bbjk7 on February 11, 2015, 12:02:42 am
Hi guys,

I'm considering buying this scope in AUS. Where can I get the best price? I guess none of these "discount codes" would apply/be worth it for anyone in aus? Looking at eyou.com.au at the moment...
Emona comes up a lot from other members in Australia. Worst case, you might compare both to TEquipment as well (they do ship internationally).

PM sent.

thanks nanofrog,

both eyou and emona currently sell their units for $479 AUD (minus shipping, about $20AUD)

My guess is, they haven't updated their prices since the AUD fell, might save a bit going through them   ;)

edit: crap, GST is about another $50  :rant: looks like i might need to go internationally after all
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on February 11, 2015, 12:13:45 am
GDay

Thank's for your comment, It was only a few week's ago that I confirmed
with Emona both price and expected arrival, at that time they were
 $439 + 10% = $483, now they are $479 + 10% = $527.

Also, from what I understand eyou get them from Emona anyhow.
Emona support Dave, so I will support Emona, no middle man.

Muttley


Here's the code for Australia " Ripped Off "

Although to be fair the Aussie dollar is down at the moment.


Muttley
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bbjk7 on February 11, 2015, 12:30:18 am
GDay

Thank's for your comment, It was only a few week's ago that I confirmed
with Emona both price and expected arrival, at that time they were
 $439 + 10% = $483, now they are $479 + 10% = $527.

Also, from what I understand eyou get them from Emona anyhow.
Emona support Dave, so I will support Emona, no middle man.

Muttley


Here's the code for Australia " Ripped Off "

Although to be fair the Aussie dollar is down at the moment.


Muttley

Amen  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: John South on February 11, 2015, 01:01:56 am
Hi - We at Emona do try and reduce the effect of the "Australian" tax on imported products and keep close to US and other international pricing on our product range. We don't have big margins on Rigol products and have repair and support in country as well as carrying stock .Problem is the exchange rate is causing pricing to increase locally . The current $US rate (Buy rate) is around 0.75 so in no way are our prices a rip off or high . Nothing we can do about GST and , if the rate stays low or falls more which it could well do we will have to increase our price.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on February 11, 2015, 01:18:46 am
Here's the code for Emona " Thank You Very Much "   :-+


Muttley
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dwhatley on February 16, 2015, 07:12:31 am
I am about to order one from TEquipment! Extremely excited to get some more experience with a scope before I leave school.

Could someone PM me the coupon code?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on February 16, 2015, 12:18:05 pm
John,

I was happy to buy my Rigol from Emona and the slightly extra cost involved was well worth the support of an Australian T&M dealer.

 :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Tainer on February 16, 2015, 12:30:05 pm
I recently bought ds1054z as my first scope. After playing around with it for a while I have a couple of questions:

1. I used ds1052e a couple of times before and it had 'alternate trigger' mode. How can I achieve the same functionality with this scope?
2. When I switch from 2V/div to 5V/div (10x attenuation) on AC coupling the waveform shifts down after the relay clicks and then rises up again. Does this happen because the input coupling capacitor charges up or something? Not a big deal, but it's slightly annoying.
3. Is there any PC software that would allow using this scope as a logic analyzer? I'm particularly interested in CAN, USB and simple binary decoding.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aveekbh on February 16, 2015, 04:46:26 pm
1. I used ds1052e a couple of times before and it had 'alternate trigger' mode. How can I achieve the same functionality with this scope?

Do you mean the way analog scopes trigger on one channel and then on the other to show two unsynchronised waveforms properly? I didn't know DSOs could do that (please correct me if I am wrong) - I just use single shot capture for that. I'll look into the link posted above.

3. Is there any PC software that would allow using this scope as a logic analyzer? I'm particularly interested in CAN, USB and simple binary decoding.

I use only Linux, so I was really hoping sigrok would work. Unfortunately, there appears to be a bug in the scope firmware that prevents more than 500 bytes transfer over USB. I will take a stab at it some time in the future, but for now it doesn't work.

You can refer to these emails for more information (if you're interested):

There is some Windows software written by someone on the forum (alessandro? ) - but I haven't looked into it.

Cheers!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aveekbh on February 16, 2015, 04:52:32 pm
For CAN , Add decoding option with Key
I don't think DS1054z supports CAN decoding.

Quote
USB , is just PC with USB monitoring program
I am not sure what you meant. ??? Please explain.  :)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Tainer on February 16, 2015, 08:07:35 pm
See
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-and-multiple-triggering-individual-triggering-on-each-channel/msg538623/#msg538623 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-and-multiple-triggering-individual-triggering-on-each-channel/msg538623/#msg538623)
Thanks, I think delayed trigger is what I need.

2. When I switch from 2V/div to 5V/div (10x attenuation) on AC coupling the waveform shifts down after the relay clicks and then rises up again. Does this happen because the input coupling capacitor charges up or something? Not a big deal, but it's slightly annoying.
Not sure
Just to clarify - does this happen on other scopes?

I use only Linux, so I was really hoping sigrok would work. Unfortunately, there appears to be a bug in the scope firmware that prevents more than 500 bytes transfer over USB. I will take a stab at it some time in the future, but for now it doesn't work.
I didn't know there is support for linux, thanks for the info. Although I'm not really concerned about the OS. You mentioned a bug with USB, but what about LXI?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on February 16, 2015, 08:23:31 pm
If the 1054Z has CAN decoding, it's news to me. I've been using a new Saleae Logic 8. But if the scope can do it, that would be excellent. I suspect that it cannot, however. Do the higher end Rigols have CAN decoding?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on February 17, 2015, 10:56:11 am
If the 1054Z has CAN decoding, it's news to me. I've been using a new Saleae Logic 8. But if the scope can do it, that would be excellent. I suspect that it cannot, however. Do the higher end Rigols have CAN decoding?

They do. The DS2000 series offers CAN bus decoding, and both CAN and USB triggering, in addition to the protocols available on the DS1000Z scopes. The DS4000 and DS6000 series also offer FlexRay decoding and triggering. All of these are options.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aveekbh on February 17, 2015, 03:35:03 pm
You mentioned a bug with USB, but what about LXI?
I haven't verified the USB bug yet for lack of time. I'll check LXI too once I get the time. Hopefully, it won't take too long!  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jpetras on February 18, 2015, 05:34:02 pm
It doesn't help when every request shows PM sent instead of how to get it.
True.  I was able to get it quickly by opening a chat session at the site.  I'm guessing there's a rule about posting it in the forum (maybe to encourage registration), but it's certainly not a closely guarded secret.

Can you please PM me the Rigol code? Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smgvbest on February 18, 2015, 05:57:46 pm
Just to be sure you're asking to the discount code for TEquipemt.net correct?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: drummerdimitri on February 18, 2015, 06:16:03 pm
Does anyone know why I might be getting out of phase glitches that appear on the screen when measuring say a 10 KHz sine wave from an audio source?
The problem sometimes goes away if I use the small metal spring instead of the aligator clip for grounding. Can it be a problem with the amplifier or is it a loose connection? I'm confused. |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 691175002 on February 18, 2015, 06:33:28 pm
Is the DS1054Z in stock at TEquipment?

What is the best place to buy one in Canada?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BlueBill on February 18, 2015, 06:44:41 pm
Is the DS1054Z in stock at TEquipment?

What is the best place to buy one in Canada?

rigolcanada.com or http://www.electro-meters.com (http://www.electro-meters.com)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: donmr on February 18, 2015, 08:45:04 pm
Does anyone know why I might be getting out of phase glitches that appear on the screen when measuring say a 10 KHz sine wave from an audio source?
The problem sometimes goes away if I use the small metal spring instead of the aligator clip for grounding. Can it be a problem with the amplifier or is it a loose connection? I'm confused. |O

If you see these glitches when you use the ground wire (several inches long) and not with the short spring clip ground then the most likely cause is that you are receiving some RF signal with that ground wire acting as an antenna.

One quick way to check for this is to clip the ground clip to the tip of the probe and hold it near your circuit, but not touching anything.  If you still see the glitches then they are coming through the air (as RF) from somewhere.  Move the probe around and see if the source is nearby or farther away.

You can also try turning off (and unplugging) devices to see if the glitches go away then.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Tainer on February 18, 2015, 10:33:57 pm
Does anyone know why I might be getting out of phase glitches that appear on the screen when measuring say a 10 KHz sine wave from an audio source?
This may not be related to your phase glitches, but I noticed an issue with one of the probes.
Most of the time I set the probes to x1 attenuation, since I don't need the bandwidth. I noticed that sometimes the amplitude suddenly starts to drop/bounce. When I switch to x10 the problem goes away. I think the attenuation switch is a bit dicky.  I made a couple of tests to make sure it's not a bad connection and I'm pretty confident that the switch is to blame.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: drummerdimitri on February 19, 2015, 12:16:11 am
Does anyone know why I might be getting out of phase glitches that appear on the screen when measuring say a 10 KHz sine wave from an audio source?
This may not be related to your phase glitches, but I noticed an issue with one of the probes.
Most of the time I set the probes to x1 attenuation, since I don't need the bandwidth. I noticed that sometimes the amplitude suddenly starts to drop/bounce. When I switch to x10 the problem goes away. I think the attenuation switch is a bit dicky.  I made a couple of tests to make sure it's not a bad connection and I'm pretty confident that the switch is to blame.

I am using the probe with x10 attenuation. It must be something else.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smgvbest on February 19, 2015, 02:31:03 am
It doesn't help when every request shows PM sent instead of how to get it.
True.  I was able to get it quickly by opening a chat session at the site.  I'm guessing there's a rule about posting it in the forum (maybe to encourage registration), but it's certainly not a closely guarded secret.

Can you please PM me the Rigol code? Thanks!

PM Sent
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yeltrow on February 19, 2015, 07:36:20 pm
May I please also have the discount code? 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on February 19, 2015, 07:41:36 pm
May I please also have the discount code?
PM sent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ishmael1851 on February 19, 2015, 08:59:20 pm
Hi, could I have the discount code for tequipment.com as well?  Does it apply to the DS2000 series?  And is it only valid outside the US?  Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on February 19, 2015, 09:21:22 pm
Hi, could I have the discount code for tequipment.com as well?  Does it apply to the DS2000 series?  And is it only valid outside the US?  Thanks!
Yes, it will apply to the DS2000 series. PM sent.

FWIW, there's a dedicated thread for the code.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vacaloca on February 24, 2015, 07:18:59 pm
I didn't find the dedicated thread. Could you post a nudge and/or PM discount code? Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on February 24, 2015, 07:50:11 pm
I didn't find the dedicated thread. Could you post a nudge and/or PM discount code? Thanks!
Searching "Tequipment code" or "Tequipment thread", would have gotten what you wanted, including the thread Special Price FOR EEVblog Members (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/).  :)

PM sent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gmit77 on February 25, 2015, 11:57:12 am
for EU people we will have stock starting this Friday:
RIGOL DS1054Z http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z)
BUNDLE RIGOL DS1054Z + HAKKO FX888D http://www.batterfly.com/shop/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/bundle-ds1054z-fx888d)
BUNDLE RIGOL DS1054Z + SALEAE LOGIC 4 http://www.batterfly.com/shop/bundle-ds1054z-logic4 (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/bundle-ds1054z-logic4)

HOPE IT HELPS

CIAO  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bryan on February 25, 2015, 09:26:39 pm
Is the DS1054Z in stock at TEquipment?

What is the best place to buy one in Canada?

rigolcanada.com or http://www.electro-meters.com (http://www.electro-meters.com)

Prices from electro-meter seem fair. Has anybody ordered from them before?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BlueBill on February 25, 2015, 09:40:50 pm
Is the DS1054Z in stock at TEquipment?

What is the best place to buy one in Canada?

rigolcanada.com or http://www.electro-meters.com (http://www.electro-meters.com)

Prices from electro-meter seem fair. Has anybody ordered from them before?

Yep, no problem. They're out in Pickering, more an office than a store. Call them ahead if you want to pickup and pay on CC.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bryan on February 25, 2015, 10:20:13 pm
Thanks, on the West Coast. Will give them a call. Assume they are the authorized dealers for Rigol if any issues.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BlueBill on February 25, 2015, 10:28:52 pm
Thanks, on the West Coast. Will give them a call. Assume they are the authorized dealers for Rigol if any issues.

I think they're the only Rigol dealer in Canada. Their Rigol site is www.rigolcanada.com (http://www.rigolcanada.com)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Paul Moir on February 25, 2015, 11:05:33 pm
RAE out here on the East coast.  I haven't checked their Rigol prices lately, but I remember a while ago they seemed good.

EDIT:  I guess TMetrix too.
 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Didix on February 28, 2015, 06:57:27 am
Do the 4 channels share a same ground?

Or are the 4 channel working as independent differential inputs that float in respect to each other?

-Didix
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob77 on February 28, 2015, 07:08:13 am
Do the 4 channels share a same ground?

Or are the 4 channel working as independent differential inputs that float in respect to each other?

-Didix

same ground for all 4 channels - same as the majority of the scopes ;) to get a floating input you need a differential probe.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on February 28, 2015, 07:22:11 am
Do the 4 channels share a same ground?

Or are the 4 channel working as independent differential inputs that float in respect to each other?

-Didix

same ground for all 4 channels - same as the majority of the scopes ;) to get a floating input you need a differential probe.

Or detach the ground clips in two probes and use the probes and math function CH1-CH2 (A-B) for example, as a differential probe, but the math function in the ds2000 is a bit slow, so it's probably as slow in the DS1054Z.

By slow I don't mean that you will loose the signals, but the display will lag displaying the output if trying to look at the signal "live"
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob77 on February 28, 2015, 07:39:06 am
Do the 4 channels share a same ground?

Or are the 4 channel working as independent differential inputs that float in respect to each other?

-Didix

same ground for all 4 channels - same as the majority of the scopes ;) to get a floating input you need a differential probe.

Or detach the ground clips in two probes and use the probes and math function CH1-CH2 (A-B) for example, as a differential probe, but the math function in the ds2000 is a bit slow, so it's probably as slow in the DS1054Z.

By slow I don't mean that you will loose the signals, but the display will lag displaying the output if trying to look at the signal "live"

yes, that's a OK, but you have to keep the input rating in mind... it's 300V CAT I for the DS1054Z, so you can't probe anything directly connected to mains (you can't probe the primary side of a SMPS for example).
with a diff probe you can have higher rating - 500V CAT II is good enough. (and therefore you can probe the primary side of a SMPS for example).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 28, 2015, 08:51:14 am
Do the 4 channels share a same ground?

Or are the 4 channel working as independent differential inputs that float in respect to each other?

same ground for all 4 channels - same as the majority of the scopes ;)

And also connected to mains ground - watch out where you connect the ground clip of your probes!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Didix on February 28, 2015, 01:54:32 pm
Do the 4 channels share a same ground?

Or are the 4 channel working as independent differential inputs that float in respect to each other?

same ground for all 4 channels - same as the majority of the scopes ;)

And also connected to mains ground - watch out where you connect the ground clip of your probes!

YEP! with my old analog scope I just vaporized a fuse of a power supply due to that fact.
Thats' why I am looking for something that floats  ;D
I just use it on my bench. Nothing higher than 24VAC.

-Didix
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Didix on February 28, 2015, 01:59:17 pm
Do the 4 channels share a same ground?

Or are the 4 channel working as independent differential inputs that float in respect to each other?

-Didix

same ground for all 4 channels - same as the majority of the scopes ;) to get a floating input you need a differential probe.

Or detach the ground clips in two probes and use the probes and math function CH1-CH2 (A-B) for example, as a differential probe, but the math function in the ds2000 is a bit slow, so it's probably as slow in the DS1054Z.

By slow I don't mean that you will loose the signals, but the display will lag displaying the output if trying to look at the signal "live"

Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on February 28, 2015, 02:46:22 pm
NOISY...  :(

Hi all
I have received my new DS1054Z just yesterday.
I noticed some noise on the track. It's still there also with the inputs set to GND... Sometimes I can see little rectangular waves, other times sawtooth, sometimes I see 3mm of noise also in 1V/div. If I do something, then I come back, sometimes track become thin, with only a little, acceptable noise.

Do anyone have a similar problem on his DSO? Do you have some hints?

Thanks!!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on February 28, 2015, 03:02:07 pm
Now I noticed some noise on the track. It's go there also with the inputs set to GND... If I have to return it I have to reset options! How can I do it? Do you have some hints?
Use the SCPI command :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall, then reboot the oscilloscope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Guni on February 28, 2015, 04:06:22 pm
http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)

Check "Chapter 1 - To Build Remote Communication"
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on February 28, 2015, 04:40:47 pm
Now I noticed some noise on the track. It's still there also with the inputs set to GND... Sometimes I can see little rectangular waves, other times sawtooth, sometimes I see 3mm of noise also in 1V/div. If I do something, then I come back, sometimes track become thin, with only a little, acceptable noise.

Do anyone have a similar problem on his DSO?

Could you post a screenshot or two of the noise that worries you?
That might make it easier for other DS1054Z owners to compare and comment.

Cheers,
Jürgen
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on February 28, 2015, 07:23:33 pm
Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix
As far as i know it's included, press the math button and check.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on February 28, 2015, 08:00:30 pm
I remember, all math functions are included, but I can't check for you because mine is "upgraded"
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on February 28, 2015, 08:54:10 pm
Here are some pictures.

In the evening I was thinking that near home (300~500m) there is a FM transmitting antenna on 105MHz and 93.3MHz. It's very powerful: with some FM radios I can't receive some other stations, because signals take input stages into saturation.

However, the track is noisy also with the input coupling selector set to GND: if the problem is due to RF interference, it is a shielding problem near the AD converter, because RF can't enter from the BNC.

As I said, the problem is not stable: sometimes it is there also at 1V/div, then I modify sensitivity, position, timing, I come back to 1V/div and the track now is clean...

Mechanical shocks seem to have no effects (better or worse)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MAS3 on February 28, 2015, 11:09:59 pm
What firmware is in there ?
It's a new device, does it have the latest firmware ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on March 01, 2015, 03:22:33 am
However, the track is noisy also with the input coupling selector set to GND: if the problem is due to RF interference, it is a shielding problem near the AD converter, because RF can't enter from the BNC.
Does this happen on any other oscilloscope you have?
And/or do you have any metal screen to fully cover the DS1054Z (thinking DIY Faraday screen)?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Didix on March 01, 2015, 06:12:38 am
Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix
As far as i know it's included, press the math button and check.

I sure would do so if I had one  ::)
I am thinking about buying one - that would be an addtl feature that my 40 yrs old Siemens is not supporting.

-Didix

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on March 01, 2015, 07:13:25 am
Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix
As far as i know it's included, press the math button and check.

I sure would do so if I had one  ::)
I am thinking about buying one - that would be an addtl feature that my 40 yrs old Siemens is not supporting.

-Didix
Even old scopes have an add with inverted signal on the 2nd channel, and old analog scopes are actually faster to do this than modern ones because they do it real time in the analog space.

So if you have an A+B and you can set B to be the inverse its the same thing as A-B
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 01, 2015, 08:09:14 am
Now
However, the track is noisy also with the input coupling selector set to GND: if the problem is due to RF interference, it is a shielding problem near the AD converter, because RF can't enter from the BNC.
Does this happen on any other oscilloscope you have?
And/or do you have any metal screen to fully cover the DS1054Z (thinking DIY Faraday screen)?
No, I haven't any other oscilloscope. I was thinking to buy one in 1986, but my uncle gave me an oscilloscope for some time, then I bought a portable DAT recorder ;)

Now I am 300km from home. If I thought to RF interference before leaving home, I could have taken the scope with me to test it here...
In the evening I could make a test in the cellar or with an aluminum foil. Also another room should be better, because my laboratory room is the more directly exposed to Vatican radio FM antennas.
 You can also see that track is not perfectly aligned with the arrow on the side. I have to say I done first the auto calibration trying solving the noise problem (it could have been a balance problem in the circuits): RF interference could have given problems also during calibration, giving offset errors!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 01, 2015, 08:43:58 am
About firmware: I thought also to a firmware bug, but it seems an interference, internal or external.
I waited 50 days to have the scope, because the Italian seller was waiting from Rigol. After received the scopes, they sent me it in 24 hours, then it should have the latest firmware. It also seemed to me the last.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 01, 2015, 10:08:32 am
Here are some pictures.

In the evening I was thinking that near home (300~500m) there is a FM transmitting antenna on 105MHz and 93.3MHz. It's very powerful: with some FM radios I can't receive some other stations, because signals take input stages into saturation.

However, the track is noisy also with the input coupling selector set to GND: if the problem is due to RF interference, it is a shielding problem near the AD converter, because RF can't enter from the BNC.
I would agree that most likely something gets into the signal path well behind the inputs, near the A/D converter. The fact that you can get the same amplitude of the noise/interference signal at either 5mV/div or 1V/div is consistent with that assumption. It probably also makes no difference at all whether you switch the 20 MHz bandwidth limit on or off? The 125 MHz frequency you see seems not directly related to the FM frequency. It might be a subharmonic of the 1 GHz or 500 MHz sampling frequency?

My own DS1054Z certainly does not show this kind of behaviour. Testing yours in a location away from the FM transmitter sound worthwhile -- you probably don't have to travel 300 km, but a few km might already make a difference? If that reduces or removes the noise, I would agree with your conclusion that proper shielding of a scope should take care of such interference. But will another DS1054Z fare better in that respect? Having Radio Vatican in your backyard is an untypical challenge, which Rigol may not have considered when designing the scope ;-)

I think it is worthwhile to check the firmware version. My scope did not come with the latest firmware when I received it a month ago. When you go to Utility - System - System Info, it should display the software version 00.04.02.SP4. Rigol did fix a jitter issue in that latest firmware, by changing the PLL operating parameters. While I don't have a theory how that would impact your noise issue, it is certainly an improvement worth trying. The firmware is officially available here: http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0), so installing it should not affect your warranty.

By the way -- the built-in screenshot function of the DS1000Z series is really nice and simple. Just plug a FAT32-formatted USB stick into the front USB connector, and each time you press the green "print screen" button, the scope will store a screenshot on the stick.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 01, 2015, 10:16:05 am
I remember firmware is sp4. I'll check this evening.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Didix on March 01, 2015, 11:53:43 am
Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix
As far as i know it's included, press the math button and check.

I sure would do so if I had one  ::)
I am thinking about buying one - that would be an addtl feature that my 40 yrs old Siemens is not supporting.

-Didix
Even old scopes have an add with inverted signal on the 2nd channel, and old analog scopes are actually faster to do this than modern ones because they do it real time in the analog space.

So if you have an A+B and you can set B to be the inverse its the same thing as A-B

Correct, my old scope has an ADD.
But what I finally need is to measure two signals at different positions in my circuit, where (at least) one of the signals needs to be measured floating.
As much as I understand I cannot do this with my only two channels that are referenced to common ground.
So I guess the best would be to have an 4 channel scope and measuring differential A-B and C-D.
Well, so the question is still open:
Is that math function where I can do (differential A-B and C-D) included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on March 01, 2015, 12:01:23 pm
In the evening I could make a test in the cellar or with an aluminum foil.
Metal window screen would be better, as you'd be able to see through it while the scope is on (quick & easy way to determine if it's RF).  ;) No leakage issues at any rate this way vs. aluminum foil (due to access for viewing & operation during test).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: electr_peter on March 01, 2015, 01:00:35 pm
But what I finally need is to measure two signals at different positions in my circuit, where (at least) one of the signals needs to be measured floating.
As much as I understand I cannot do this with my only two channels that are referenced to common ground.
So I guess the best would be to have an 4 channel scope and measuring differential A-B and C-D.
Well, so the question is still open:
Is that math function where I can do (differential A-B and C-D) included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?
From using the scope and reading manual I would say you can do only one pair (A-B or C-D), but not both because only one math channel is available. Maybe you can capture signals on 4 channels, stop scope, calculate math, add reference traces for both combinations and go from there.

Anyway, depending on what you do with differential measurements, real differential probes (either high V or high BW) are the way to go.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Didix on March 01, 2015, 02:21:54 pm
But what I finally need is to measure two signals at different positions in my circuit, where (at least) one of the signals needs to be measured floating.
As much as I understand I cannot do this with my only two channels that are referenced to common ground.
So I guess the best would be to have an 4 channel scope and measuring differential A-B and C-D.
Well, so the question is still open:
Is that math function where I can do (differential A-B and C-D) included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?
From using the scope and reading manual I would say you can do only one pair (A-B or C-D), but not both because only one math channel is available. Maybe you can capture signals on 4 channels, stop scope, calculate math, add reference traces for both combinations and go from there.

Anyway, depending on what you do with differential measurements, real differential probes (either high V or high BW) are the way to go.

For my current application it would be ok to measure one signal differential (A-B) and the second signal referenced to ground (C only).
As I understand you have done differential measurements?

To get back to my original but yet unanswered question  ::) : 
Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?

-Didix

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: electr_peter on March 01, 2015, 05:29:46 pm
For my current application it would be ok to measure one signal differential (A-B) and the second signal referenced to ground (C only).
As I understand you have done differential measurements?
Yes, I have measured differential signals. Add math channel of 2 signals and see combined result. Scope runs slower with math on though.

Quote
To get back to my original but yet unanswered question  ::) :
Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?
Yes, basic scope has a math features. Only advanced triggering and decoding are an option.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Didix on March 01, 2015, 05:53:42 pm
For my current application it would be ok to measure one signal differential (A-B) and the second signal referenced to ground (C only).
As I understand you have done differential measurements?
Yes, I have measured differential signals. Add math channel of 2 signals and see combined result. Scope runs slower with math on though.

Quote
To get back to my original but yet unanswered question  ::) :
Is that math function included in the basic package of the DS1054Z?
Yes, basic scope has a math features. Only advanced triggering and decoding are an option.

Thanx a lot, Peter! I really appreciate such constructive contributions  :-+

-Didix
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on March 01, 2015, 09:01:31 pm
I would suggest you get the manual for the DS1054Z to see how many channels you can mix in the math functions.
That said, for what you want to do, your current scope should work as well without the math overhead because it's all done in the analog domain.

So if the device under test has a common ground with the scope via the home mains then you can setup channel 2 as inverted polarity and add ch1 + (inverted ch2) which will give you A-B in the screen.

If the DUT is floating and has no common ground (you can measure voltage between the scope ground and the device ground to make sure there is no voltage at all) you can use one of the probe's ground clips to ground your DUT in reference to the scope.

But make sure there is no voltage across the ground of the device and the ground of the scope or you'll let the magic smoke out from the device or from the scope.

The 2nd probe (inverted ch2) added to the grounded ch1 will give you A-B.

So you can use your current 2 channel scope if you know what you are doing. Having more channels you still have to know how you are hooking things up.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 02, 2015, 12:39:03 am
Hw is 0.1.1; sw is rev.4. What is your Hw version?
Ch1 is very clean; at 10mV (but set to gnd) I begin to see various sinusoidal and other noises.
Ch2,3,4 have some digital noise still at 10V/div

P.s.: not all the forums are the same: here are you used to have a discussion for each topic, or a long discussion for all topics about a device? It seems the second... Is it so?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: KNA on March 02, 2015, 02:34:09 am
Those who got a new DS1054Z in the last couple of weeks, what firmware and hardware versions did you receive?

Were you still able to "upgrade" to all options? I read that 00.04.02.04.07 the "upgrade doesn't work https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/)

Cheers!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: justinDavidow on March 02, 2015, 06:04:01 am
Those who got a new DS1054Z in the last couple of weeks, what firmware and hardware versions did you receive?

Were you still able to "upgrade" to all options? I read that 00.04.02.04.07 the "upgrade doesn't work https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/)

Cheers!

I'm presently on 00.04.02.SP3 with board version 0.1.1 after purchasing in Canada in early-mid Jan 2015, and all options upgrade without a problem.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 02, 2015, 07:20:53 am
Were you still able to "upgrade" to all options? I read that 00.04.02.04.07 the "upgrade doesn't work https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/)

Not sure why there is so much confusion around this. The firmware version you mentioned is the latest one (which the scope indicates as "00.04.02 SP4" in the system information). The key generator for upgrades still works fine with that version.

Some "failed" upgrade attempts have been reported which were traceable to mis-typed serial numbers, or to the online keygen not always refreshing properly. It seems advisable to poll the keygen a couple of times and check whether you get consistent output.

Cheers,
Jürgen
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on March 02, 2015, 08:33:59 am
Were you still able to "upgrade" to all options? I read that 00.04.02.04.07 the "upgrade doesn't work https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/)

Some "failed" upgrade attempts have been reported which were traceable to mis-typed serial numbers, or to the online keygen not always refreshing properly. It seems advisable to poll the keygen a couple of times and check whether you get consistent output.

Cheers,
Jürgen

The DS1074Z-S I purchased for my nephew last week was shipped with firmware 4.00, and I noticed that applying an upgrade key via SCPI via either the LAN or USB resulted in an error on the screen, although I discovered later that the upgrade did actually work if I looked on the option screen.

Once the firmware had been updated to 4.02 SP4, the error no longer appeared.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 02, 2015, 12:03:37 pm
Firmware of mine is 4.02 sp4.
I've done some other pictures, this time using the "print screen". I'd like to compare them with others of your scopes in the same conditions. Thanks!

Pictures 1 & 2: Test signal; you can see noise and a the defective switch of a probe of the 4.
Picture 3: noise on ch.1
Picture 4: in the moment of switching timing
Picture 5: ch.1, 200mV/div.
Picture 6: 4 channels, 500mV/div.
Pictures 7 to 10: 4 channels, 2 to 20mV/div.

You can also see that the tracks are not aligned with the arrows on the left. Calibration had no effect.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: KNA on March 02, 2015, 02:01:46 pm
Thanks for the replies. I got one today and the "upgrade" worked fine, first shot from here (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/).

For future reference, firmware the scope came with was: 00.04.02.SP4
Board version: 0.1.1

Were you still able to "upgrade" to all options? I read that 00.04.02.04.07 the "upgrade doesn't work https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/)

Not sure why there is so much confusion around this. The firmware version you mentioned is the latest one (which the scope indicates as "00.04.02 SP4" in the system information). The key generator for upgrades still works fine with that version.


I wanted some recent information which I couldn't find in this thread. I assumed the code worked as there are no recent posts describing failures.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 02, 2015, 02:09:58 pm
Can you post some noise pictures?
Thanks!

I attach my noise measurements in a xls table.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 03, 2015, 07:41:05 pm
Can you post some noise pictures?
Thanks!
Hi Datman,

Your most recent screenshots look much better to me. I get very similar results on my DS1054Z (with "upgrade" to 100 MHz). The four screenshots below correspond to the last four you posted: All channels with grounded 1:1 inputs and 20 MHz bandwidth limit, at 2 mV/div to 20 mV/div.

Some channels are in better shape than others; on my scope, channel 1 shows most noise. Maybe the AD converter is just sitting "on the edge" for this channel, with the LSB flipping back and forth? A stopped screenshot shows that it is just alternating between two discrete states, one trace width (2 pixels) apart. That behaviour actually persists up to 10V/div. I have not tried re-running the auto-calibration yet, which might change this (and maybe make another channel worse?), as the current performance is fine for me.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on March 03, 2015, 10:08:34 pm
Just a quick FYI.  We are finally getting our 2 shipments of ds1054z.  After backorders we will have about 250 units in stock.

We will have all back orders cleared and stock in hand in the next 10-12 days or so.  The port delays in the US really slowed things down by several weeks!
http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/)


Thanks
Evan Cirelli

TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 04, 2015, 10:25:56 am
Thank you, eblaster.
I see your channels 3 & 4 are very quiet.
The seller asked me to ship the scope for a test at no charge (excluding shipping from me to him). Also, the switches of the 4 (!) probes are defective in position x1, then i have 2 reasons for shipping. How are your probes? Do they work without any problem at 1x? Please test series resistance, because problems do not appear on the scope until resistance is under several kohms.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 04, 2015, 03:30:25 pm
Also, the switches of the 4 (!) probes are defective in position x1, then i have 2 reasons for shipping. How are your probes? Do they work without any problem at 1x? Please test series resistance, because problems do not appear on the scope until resistance is under several kohms.

Same problem here: In the 1x position, all four probes are pretty useless. I have to "massage" the switch to get a series reistance of 1 kOhm or so. But for all four probes, as soon as I let go of the switch, resistance is all over the place, jumping from several kOhm to MOhm. (As far as I can tell from the ever-changing DMM display.)

Where did you order your scope -- Batronix, by any chance? I had concluded that I would use my 30-year-old 20 MHz probes if I need 1x sensitivity at low bandwidth, but come to think of it, maybe I should ask them to swap the probes for a set that works as advertised...

Cheers,
Jürgen
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on March 04, 2015, 03:39:44 pm
How are your probes? Do they work without any problem at 1x?
Out of my two DS1054Z, I have one probe with an effectively broken 1X switch (almost never works), two with somewhat flaky 1X (wiggling the switch may cause them to break contact and go 10X) and another probe where the needle tip "nub" the hook attachment clips onto sometimes gets stuck inside the attachment.

That makes it four out of eight probes with significant electrical or mechanical issues. Still usable but not impressed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 04, 2015, 04:24:43 pm
>> In the 1x position, all four probes are pretty useless. I have to "massage" the switch to get a series reistance of 1 kOhm or so
>> I have one probe with an effectively broken 1X switch (almost never works), two with somewhat flaky 1X (wiggling the switch may cause them to break contact and go 10X) and another probe where the needle tip "nub" the hook attachment clips onto sometimes gets stuck inside the attachment.


If I'm searching for a problem in a circuit, I have to have a reliable test set!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 04, 2015, 04:29:32 pm
Where did you order your scope -- Batronix, by any chance? I had concluded that I would use my 30-year-old 20 MHz probes if I need 1x sensitivity at low bandwidth, but come to think of it, maybe I should ask them to swap the probes for a set that works as advertised...
I've bought my scope from ALLDATA here, in Italy.
A set of 4 "well-working" 100MHz probes is not very cheap...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark on March 06, 2015, 02:57:09 pm
My humble apologies if I have missed this, but I was wondering if there is a way of setting the date and time on the DS1054Z? 
When I save a wave pic to USB drive the date is 1/1/1980. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aveekbh on March 06, 2015, 03:26:39 pm
... I was wondering if there is a way of setting the date and time on the DS1054Z? 

There is no real time clock on the unit. I'm not sure why they left it out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on March 06, 2015, 04:09:51 pm
There is no real time clock on the unit. I'm not sure why they left it out.
Adding it in would cost a battery, an RTC chip, a crystal and a few other support components. No budget for that on a $400 scope!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aveekbh on March 06, 2015, 06:12:32 pm
Adding it in would cost a battery, an RTC chip, a crystal and a few other support components. No budget for that on a $400 scope!
How much would that cost in volume - $5-10, perhaps? Additional design effort would be small, because they could just reuse the design from another series. I suppose they wanted to keep the BOM cost below some threshold, otherwise they could have just increased the price by $10.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on March 06, 2015, 06:18:24 pm
Adding it in would cost a battery, an RTC chip, a crystal and a few other support components. No budget for that on a $400 scope!
How much would that cost in volume - $5-10, perhaps? Additional design effort would be small, because they could just reuse the design from another series. I suppose they wanted to keep the BOM cost below some threshold, otherwise they could have just increased the price by $10.

RTC modules are less than $1 from AliExpress, so I doubt the BOM cost would be more than that, but they would have had to design in a battery holder and door.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on March 06, 2015, 06:36:41 pm
Adding it in would cost a battery, an RTC chip, a crystal and a few other support components. No budget for that on a $400 scope!
How much would that cost in volume - $5-10, perhaps? Additional design effort would be small, because they could just reuse the design from another series. I suppose they wanted to keep the BOM cost below some threshold, otherwise they could have just increased the price by $10.

RTC modules are less than $1 from AliExpress, so I doubt the BOM cost would be more than that, but they would have had to design in a battery holder and door.

It's interesting how you draw the "price point" line on things like this. The housing and metalwork probably cost as much as the electronics, but no skimping there. Even the cost of the packaging and shipping adds in of course.

One thing I think they could do to increase sales is to modify the software (or make a variation) targeted at the educational market. I'm sure they could sell them there more and that would require no hardware modification. Apple wouldn't be where they are today without that market.

A simple scripting routine that could boot off and sd card would be good and easy to implement.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MAS3 on March 06, 2015, 09:22:24 pm
Why would they want to sell more at the moment.
They can't keep up with demand right now.
I've been told by a company selling these, that a price raise is coming up.
Don't know if that is due to the Euro going down with respect to the US Dollar, some regional raise or a worldwide thing initiated by Rigol.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: justinDavidow on March 11, 2015, 03:37:42 pm
My humble apologies if I have missed this, but I was wondering if there is a way of setting the date and time on the DS1054Z? 
When I save a wave pic to USB drive the date is 1/1/1980.

Interesting,  I hadn't known this!

Using the desktop software to grab images over the network stamps the date correctly, and the date/time is included in the filename. (though I PRESUME it's based on the computer time.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 11, 2015, 03:55:05 pm
If the computer saves a file, the file will have time and date from the computer...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on March 11, 2015, 04:01:44 pm
Adding it in would cost a battery, an RTC chip, a crystal and a few other support components. No budget for that on a $400 scope!
How much would that cost in volume - $5-10, perhaps? Additional design effort would be small, because they could just reuse the design from another series. I suppose they wanted to keep the BOM cost below some threshold, otherwise they could have just increased the price by $10.

RTC modules are less than $1 from AliExpress, so I doubt the BOM cost would be more than that, but they would have had to design in a battery holder and door.

Why would it need a door? A properly designed RTC should run for many years on a single cell. Long past warranty, at which point, who cares?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on March 11, 2015, 04:40:18 pm
Adding it in would cost a battery, an RTC chip, a crystal and a few other support components. No budget for that on a $400 scope!
How much would that cost in volume - $5-10, perhaps? Additional design effort would be small, because they could just reuse the design from another series. I suppose they wanted to keep the BOM cost below some threshold, otherwise they could have just increased the price by $10.

RTC modules are less than $1 from AliExpress, so I doubt the BOM cost would be more than that, but they would have had to design in a battery holder and door.

Why would it need a door? A properly designed RTC should run for many years on a single cell. Long past warranty, at which point, who cares?

Perhaps.  What did they do on the DS2000?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on March 11, 2015, 04:42:34 pm
Perhaps.  What did they do on the DS2000?

Just a battery holder on the board. Should last 5+ years easily.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 11, 2015, 06:47:43 pm
There is no real time clock on the unit. I'm not sure why they left it out.

I think it is most likely that Rigol left out the RTC quite deliberately, despite the low cost of adding one. Like almost all companies, Rigol need to find good ways to segment their market -- take as much market share from the competition, but make sure that they do not cannibalize their higher-end scopes too much.  Adding all the measurement and analysis features which make the DS1000Z series an "offer you can't refuse" in the amateur, entry-level and educational market, but leaving out a few features which professional users find important, is a perfect way to do that.

CAN decoding functionality is probably another example: Could have been added without extra hardware cost, and maybe even sold as a separate upgrade option -- but it is not available, since it is a typical requirement for the professional space. "If you need that, buy a 2000 series or higher model"; makes perfect commercial sense. I can't blame Rigol for that; they are in this business to make money...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marooned on March 11, 2015, 08:59:36 pm
Hi there

Could someone have a look on this short movie I recorded and tell me if my Rigol has an issue or is it only my lack of knowledge?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVqZiExSqUQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVqZiExSqUQ)

My trigger source is set to CH2 somewhere around middle point and this is simple PWM from Arduino. CH1 is mosfet output. Everything is good until I enable CH3 (connected to square test output) or CH4 (not connected). Triggering get lost until I shift its level higher (even above actual source signal).
This looks for me like an issue but correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: electr_peter on March 11, 2015, 10:21:55 pm
Could someone have a look on this short movie I recorded and tell me if my Rigol has an issue or is it only my lack of knowledge?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVqZiExSqUQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVqZiExSqUQ)
Seems like you have not set a proper trigger (trigger is far too low) and scope just happens by luck to refresh it's memory in required frequency. Having more channels changes refresh speed slightly. Or the trigger is just set on the very edge and adding new channel shifts waveform a bit and trigger fails.

Check your trigger and try again.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on March 11, 2015, 10:35:23 pm
Hi there

Could someone have a look on this short movie I recorded and tell me if my Rigol has an issue or is it only my lack of knowledge?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVqZiExSqUQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVqZiExSqUQ)

My trigger source is set to CH2 somewhere around middle point and this is simple PWM from Arduino. CH1 is mosfet output. Everything is good until I enable CH3 (connected to square test output) or CH4 (not connected). Triggering get lost until I shift its level higher (even above actual source signal).
This looks for me like an issue but correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks

Not sure what I'm doing different. I tried a similar thing (I don't have your PWM stuff, but I did an FM'd square wave instead around 500Hz which looks like your frequency) and similar settings. 5V/div (10x), 500us/div. I couldn't reproduce your problem.

http://youtu.be/lTA_6aCkAao (http://youtu.be/lTA_6aCkAao)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marooned on March 12, 2015, 08:38:58 pm
Seems like you have not set a proper trigger (trigger is far too low)
You can see on the video that trigger is more or less in the middle (2,70V for logic 5V signal)

Not sure what I'm doing different. I tried a similar thing [...] I couldn't reproduce your problem.
Unfortunately, I had already different settings on my bench but I've recreated it and I think I have all the same (board and dso settings) and.. huh, I'm no longer able to recreate the issue. That is quite strange and pity I didn't debug it more when I had a chance.

Well, maybe posting to EEV adds +10 to electronics skills and I just got level up ;)
Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: cutemonster on March 14, 2015, 06:55:26 am
I guess I'm late to the party?  Just ordered one from teequipment and it's backordered.  I hope it's still hackable by then.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnnyBerg on March 14, 2015, 08:41:09 am
Mine is coming today. Finally!

I will not hack it (for now). Just play with it and compare it's performance to my other stuff.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Dinsdale on March 14, 2015, 03:35:47 pm
I've had my scope for a while now. What I need now is a 'scope "cozy". Does someone have a grandmother who wants to do a kickstarter? You know, a nice embroidered, quilted cover with the RIGOL name on it. And a flap over the probe connectors so you can leave your probes connected if you want. Maybe a great-grandmother is required to find the necessary talent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark on March 14, 2015, 04:18:10 pm
I've had my scope for a while now. What I need now is a 'scope "cozy". Does someone have a grandmother who wants to do a kickstarter? You know, a nice embroidered, quilted cover with the RIGOL name on it. And a flap over the probe connectors so you can leave your probes connected if you want. Maybe a great-grandmother is required to find the necessary talent.

Here's one my grandmother would make if she had the time... 
http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/CARRY-BAG/Cases/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/CARRY-BAG/Cases/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: max_torque on March 14, 2015, 04:18:48 pm
Hi there

Could someone have a look on this short movie I recorded and tell me if my Rigol has an issue or is it only my lack of knowledge?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVqZiExSqUQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVqZiExSqUQ)

My trigger source is set to CH2 somewhere around middle point and this is simple PWM from Arduino. CH1 is mosfet output. Everything is good until I enable CH3 (connected to square test output) or CH4 (not connected). Triggering get lost until I shift its level higher (even above actual source signal).
This looks for me like an issue but correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks

There's definitively something odd with the triggering on my 74Z when using multiple channels.  On a few occasions now i've set my scope up with one or two channels enabled, set the tigger, often for signals that come in "pulses" (ie not continuously triggering) and that triggering is lost when either of the other channels are switched on (3 or 4).  Definitely a bug imo.  Haven't got the time right now to figure it out / investigate more unfortunately.......
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: FRob on March 15, 2015, 08:22:10 pm
Can anybody confirm the trigger behavior for me? I semi-recently upgraded my DS1054Z to FW version 00.04.02.SP4 and took some measurements. I began to notice the following behavior:

Trigger in AUTO mode (DC coupled) will trigger for intermittent signals ("T'D" in upper left corner), but the waveform will not actually stay on-screen at all. At work I use Textronics, and in Auto-Mode, non-continuous signals will stay on-screen for some seconds. I think this time is configurable on Textronics, is this time configurable on DS1054Z?

Ex.: I'm watching a 200us signal on 50us timescale. I tried to compensate by setting hold-off to a large value, e.g. 1s. However, this only results in the waveform standing still for one second while the 200us signal that triggered it is already off-screen. Is this the intended behavior? At work I use AUTO mode all the time, yet on DS1054Z it kind of becomes useless for random probing, because it's easy to miss a trigger event when nothing on-screen changes.

EDIT: Forgot to mention: I didn't take many measurements before upgrading to the new FW, so I'm not sure it's related.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on March 16, 2015, 09:49:51 am
Trigger in AUTO mode (
Ex.: I'm watching a 200us signal on 50us timescale. I tried to compensate by setting hold-off to a large value, e.g. 1s. However, this only results in the waveform standing still for one second while the 200us signal that triggered it is already off-screen. Is this the intended behavior? At work I use AUTO mode all the time, yet on DS1054Z it kind of becomes useless for random probing, because it's easy to miss a trigger event when nothing on-
From the User's guide:
"Note: When the horizontal time base is set to 50 ms/div or greater, this Auto trigger mode allows the absence of trigger signal."

Maybe try Normal trigger mode for intermittent pulses
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: maj on March 16, 2015, 09:00:29 pm
Finally cracked - now to wait impatiently till the end of April!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: blackbird on March 17, 2015, 03:13:08 pm
As of yesterday, I'm also a proud owner of this (Quoting Dave) "Best bang for bucks" DSO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 17, 2015, 03:26:20 pm
Hi, Blackbird
Can you tell us something about the noise on the trace?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on March 17, 2015, 03:58:03 pm
I've had my scope for a while now. What I need now is a 'scope "cozy". Does someone have a grandmother who wants to do a kickstarter? You know, a nice embroidered, quilted cover with the RIGOL name on it. And a flap over the probe connectors so you can leave your probes connected if you want. Maybe a great-grandmother is required to find the necessary talent.

These people make nice custom covers, I last got one for my Akai MPK-249 (midi controller):

http://www.digitaldeckcovers.com/ (http://www.digitaldeckcovers.com/)

You can just give them dimensions. I think I'll order one and see how it works out. I've almost poked the screen several times with a hot soldering iron (maybe I should be more careful?  :P )
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: blackbird on March 17, 2015, 05:50:24 pm
Can you tell us something about the noise on the trace?

As I'm a real novice on the scope, I'll first find my way through all the bells and whistles. Maybe you could help me out so I can give you a sensible answer  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 17, 2015, 06:22:58 pm
You can understand what I'm talking about seeing the screenshots I posted in this topic a few days ago
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnnyBerg on March 17, 2015, 06:41:19 pm
Can you tell us something about the noise on the trace?

You mean this: ?

(http://i59.tinypic.com/o9jnur.jpg)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 17, 2015, 06:46:49 pm
Can you tell us something about the noise on the trace?

You mean this: ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znwp0pK8Tzk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znwp0pK8Tzk)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnnyBerg on March 17, 2015, 06:55:35 pm
The 1054Z performing really well with 300 µV noise on 1 mV/div. Better then the analog scopes I own.

This is something I could not do on my other scopes,  is measure the noise of my new "low cost" voltage reference.

Notice that the scale is 3 µV/div !! (there is a 10.000x preamp in front of the scope)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/zlf0ck.jpg)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: blackbird on March 17, 2015, 08:08:20 pm
You can understand what I'm talking about seeing the screenshots I posted in this topic a few days ago

I do now . :-+ I was thinking to difficult...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnnyBerg on March 17, 2015, 08:27:27 pm
After watching the video I think @Fungus is referring to the noise in the trace as Dave is explaining in the video. For me, that is not a problem, I am more concerned about the noise in the most sensitive setting.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on March 17, 2015, 08:45:57 pm
Hi, Blackbird
Can you tell us something about the noise on the trace?
http://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/10/eevblog-601-why-digital-oscilloscopes-appear-noisy/ (http://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/10/eevblog-601-why-digital-oscilloscopes-appear-noisy/)
http://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/27/eevblog-610-why-digital-scopes-appear-noisy-part-2/ (http://www.eevblog.com/2014/04/27/eevblog-610-why-digital-scopes-appear-noisy-part-2/)

Other than your connection methods, Dave's videos explains ALL you need to know.  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: blackbird on March 17, 2015, 09:40:15 pm
Ok, I will take a closer look at those videos.  Hopefully I can come back with more useful information ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 18, 2015, 09:03:40 am
I'm not worried about noise at high sensitivity, because it would happen only when I measure very low signals. In these cases I could make a low noise preamp. The problem is that I see the noise every time I use the scope, also measuring a 10Vpp signal!
Please note that a 1/5 division noise is 1/50 scale: 1/50 of 256 (8bit) is about 5/256. 1 LSB (Least Significant Bit) is 1/256; the 2nd LSB is 2/256; the 3rd is 4/256, then noise affects fully the first 2 of 8 bits and sometimes the 3rd!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: g8bnr on March 18, 2015, 12:34:31 pm
Hi Folks,
I have just recently received my DS1054Z, which I am most pleased with, and the dealer, Telonic, were excellent.

I have been experimenting with the Riglol 'keygen' codes. My unit has the following fitted:-

Software Version        00.04.02 SP4
Board Version             0.1.1

The 'keygen' code DSFR did not work, it came up with an invalid code message!
However, the 'keygen' code DSER worked first time. The only difference between these codes, as far as I can discover, is that DSFR is supposed to activate all options including 500uV/div. The DSER code enables all that DSFR is supposed to do except for the 500u/div option.

Maybe Rigol have removed the 'buggy' 500uV/div option from the latest software/board issue!

Hope that this information is useful to EEVBLOG Forum readers.

73 Dick
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 18, 2015, 12:43:06 pm
The problem is that I see the noise every time I use the scope, also measuring a 10Vpp signal!
Please note that a 1/5 division noise is 1/50 scale: 1/50 of 256 (8bit) is about 5/256. 1 LSB (Least Significant Bit) is 1/256; the 2nd LSB is 2/256; the 3rd is 4/256, then noise affects fully the first 2 of 8 bits and sometimes the 3rd!
Hi Datman,

In the measurements you had posted here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg620902/#msg620902 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg620902/#msg620902), the noise did not look as bad as what you mention now. For example, in the 6th screenshot in that post (500 mV/div), the noise-free, steady yellow line is two pixels wide. Full range is 400 pixels on the screen -- Rigol probably rounds up the line width to 400/256 ~ 2 pixels. The pink and dark blue channel alternate between two levels, which are 2 pixels and presumably 1 LSB apart. Only the light blue (cyan?) channel shows rare excursions to a third level, which is probably 2 LSBs away -- or you could argue it is +-1 LSB from the average.

I would more or less expect to find noise patterns as seen for the pink and dark blue channels, if the input voltage sits just between two ADC input levels. (Although for the special case of 0V input, Rigol could probably do better by getting the auto-calibration right, so that 0V sits smack-dab on the 0x00 output of the ADC... But that would just make it look better cosmetically; for real-world DC signals you would still get the same alternating levels, depending on the actual voltage input.) Hence, that does not concern me at all. The cyan channel might be slightly fishy, but nothing I personally would worry about.

Regards,
Juergen
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 18, 2015, 01:47:42 pm
Hi eblaster
Ch1 (yellow) on my pictures 16 and 17 is good for me. I have been disappointed for the residual sampling noise.

Uhmm... It should be not so tricky avoiding a -40dBfs interference for an experienced company. I can not think they are not able to solve that problem.
A cheap instrument can not be as good as more expensive instruments of the same company... I wouldn't be astonished if they made something to add noise, making the DS1000 series worse than more expensive series!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 18, 2015, 02:15:38 pm
I am not thinking of it as "-40 dB interference", but as "1 LSB discretisation noise". That seems hard to avoid, especially when an input signal sits "on the edge" between two levels of the A/D converter.

(Although, as mentioned above, it should be avoidable for the 0V level, by proper auto-calibration of the input offset. It has been observed before that Rigol seem to get the 0V offset systematically wrong in the DS1000Z scopes; after auto-calibration, "0V" seems to end up somewhere at the upper end of the noise level. As a consequence, even minimal noise will be quite likely to trigger a change between two adjacent bit levels...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 18, 2015, 02:48:35 pm
That's right, but noise is higher than the 2nd LSB (about 5/256) and it is not random, but it has the sampling frequency or strictly related.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 18, 2015, 03:10:07 pm
Yes, 5 counts of noise would seem a lot. As mentioned above, I don't think the screenshots you had shared recently show more than 2 counts for the worst channel. Has the higher noise level (which had disappeared after a firmware update, I seem to recall) reappeared?

You are right that the noise seems to be periodic, when looking at the screenshots. 8 ns per period (in the 10 ns/div screenshots, both yours and mine). So I may have to think "interference" after all, rather than "discretisation noise" ;-)  I will have another look at my DS1054Z tonight, looking at some single-shot noise patterns, and whether the noise period changes with sampling frequency in 2-channel and 1-channel mode.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 18, 2015, 03:25:58 pm
>> I don't think the screenshots you had shared recently show more than 2 counts for the worst channel.

If the peak level is 1/5 of a square, it is 1/50 (10 squares) of 256 (8 bit vertical A/D converter resolution)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 18, 2015, 04:23:21 pm
If the peak level is 1/5 of a square, it is 1/50 (10 squares) of 256 (8 bit vertical A/D converter resolution)
Sure, but which of your screenshots shows the noise filling 1/5 of a square? With the exception of the ones captured at 2mv/div or 5mV/div (where you start to see the actual noise of the input stage),  I see only traces with two line-widths (4 pixels), which seems to correspond to 1 digit of noise. That's also supported by your image number 4, which shows a single-shot trace alternating between just two discrete states. The light-blue channel is an exception, with an extra digit of noise, in your scope.

I am curious to find out how Rigol does the scaling on the screen. On a local scale, it seems to be 2 pixels per digit, but that does not pan out with the 400 pixels for the full vertical scale, of course. Maybe the ADC only counts to 200??  I will try to capture a ramp signal in pixel-mode and count the discrete states...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on March 18, 2015, 05:59:06 pm
If the peak level is 1/5 of a square, it is 1/50 (10 squares) of 256 (8 bit vertical A/D converter resolution)
The easiest way to check that and be certain beyond reasonable doubt would be to export data to CVS and see how many different readings you get. Put that on a spreadsheet and you can do a histogram and do other statistical analysis on the reading distribution.

Maybe the ADC only counts to 200??  I will try to capture a ramp signal in pixel-mode and count the discrete states...
Do a one-shot capture, export it to CVS, then do a histogram with 256 bins to see if you have any missing bins. Missing bins would indicate missing counts.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnnyBerg on March 18, 2015, 06:19:47 pm
Is there already a thread with some fancy/nice/special screen dumps from the scope?

I see that display mode has some influence on the lsb noise of the "beam", not sure yet how to interpret ate that.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 18, 2015, 09:00:48 pm
Do a one-shot capture, export it to CVS, then do a histogram with 256 bins to see if you have any missing bins. Missing bins would indicate missing counts.
OK, here we go. I connected a ramp signal to channel 1 of my DS1054Z and captured a single shot in normal acquisition mode, sin(x)/x off, dot display. Screenshot and CSV data are attached. The CSV data has 1500 points, as expected from the sample rate (I had all 4 channels on to get a sparse dot display, enabling me to see the individual dots on screen better). But it only has 200 different vertical values, all spaced equidistantly without extra gaps.

So it seems that the DS1054Z limits its data acquisition and display to a sub-range of 200 counts out of the full 256, only. This of course maps nicely onto the 400 pixel net vertical range of the display. Cheating just a little bit; we've got ourselves a 7.6 bit ADC here...

-- Edit: Something strange going on in addition here. I had intentionally set the ramp amplitude to clip at the beginning and end of the displayed range, to establish a baseline. But I just realized that
(a) the CSV data do not show the clippling, but a strange dip and then a continuation of the linear ramp, and that
(b) I can switch the scope to the next lower sensitivity, while still showing the captured single-shot scan, and it will then display without the clipping.
So do the 200 levels in the CSV actually correspond to a larger vertical range, which even goes beyond what's on the screen in the screenshot below? But that would not make sense; what about the nice "200 counts = 400 pixels" correspondence?? Confused; need to look more closely...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: cryptos on March 18, 2015, 09:55:01 pm
hello
I recently purchased the Rigol ds1054z and makes me think things but not sure since it's my first oscilloscope is normal this happen ?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdf268c_QPI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdf268c_QPI)


Thank You
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on March 18, 2015, 10:51:30 pm
So it seems that the DS1054Z limits its data acquisition and display to a sub-range of 200 counts out of the full 256, only. This of course maps nicely onto the 400 pixel net vertical range of the display. Cheating just a little bit; we've got ourselves a 7.6 bit ADC here...

So do the 200 levels in the CSV actually correspond to a larger vertical range, which even goes beyond what's on the screen in the screenshot below? But that would not make sense; what about the nice "200 counts = 400 pixels" correspondence?? Confused; need to look more closely...
Hi Folks ,
As I think the DS1000Z is based on the DS2000 , here is some information that may be helpfull.
For the DS2000 the 8 bit ADC is scaled, but only 200 counts are shown on the Display
The 256 points are used for over range , but are stored in the Data BUffers
in the 1st DIsplay I show a 1 Vpp saw tooth waveform at 100mV/DIv so only 800mV are shown but the DSO does measure the 1Vpp accurately as you can see from the Measurement (using the display Data Buffer)

But using a Utility that Marmad wrote (RUU), one can see the full range of 256 as 10 vertical divisions
See Pix #2

I hope that helps
as for noise, I used High Res or Averaging to see how well Calibration did.

Pix #3 is another display RUU can capture!
A capture of frames in 3-D , a Frequency sweep 4-40MHz with 20MHz BW filter
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on March 18, 2015, 11:05:33 pm
So do the 200 levels in the CSV actually correspond to a larger vertical range, which even goes beyond what's on the screen in the screenshot below? But that would not make sense; what about the nice "200 counts = 400 pixels" correspondence?? Confused; need to look more closely...
I actually see 201 bins with one or more counts in them by making my bins in 0.04V increments from -5.1V to +5.1V, so it looks like the ramp has 55 missing counts in it.

The second graph shows the histogram of class sizes for the first histogram to show which counts per class are most frequent. Ideally, if the full dynamic range had been used, the most common class size should have been six with 150+ hits.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on March 18, 2015, 11:06:06 pm
I recently purchased the Rigol ds1054z and makes me think things but not sure since it's my first oscilloscope is normal this happen ?.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdf268c_QPI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdf268c_QPI)
@ cryptos
I think your Keyboard is not working
on the DS2000 there is a hidden Utility to test the Keyboard, is this on the DS1000Z also??
Report and get RMA from Rigol

I have had a Keyboard failure and sent my DSO back for repair.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: FRob on March 19, 2015, 02:48:52 am
Ex.: I'm watching a 200us signal on 50us timescale. I tried to compensate by setting hold-off to a large value, e.g. 1s. However, this only results in the waveform standing still for one second while the 200us signal that triggered it is already off-screen. Is this the intended behavior? At work I use AUTO mode all the time, yet on DS1054Z it kind of becomes useless for random probing, because it's easy to miss a trigger event when nothing on-
From the User's guide:
"Note: When the horizontal time base is set to 50 ms/div or greater, this Auto trigger mode allows the absence of trigger signal."

Maybe try Normal trigger mode for intermittent pulses

Thanks for your response. However, I'm at 50µs, not 50ms. Surely, on smaller timescales, I should be able to see every trigger in AUTO mode? How does AUTO mode work for everybody else? Does anybody happen to see the current trigger being held a bit longer, like on Textronics?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mcinque on March 19, 2015, 12:57:06 pm
is normal this happen ?.

NO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Vostro on March 20, 2015, 03:07:10 pm
Hi Folks,
I have just recently received my DS1054Z, which I am most pleased with, and the dealer, Telonic, were excellent.

I have been experimenting with the Riglol 'keygen' codes. My unit has the following fitted:-

Software Version        00.04.02 SP4
Board Version             0.1.1

The 'keygen' code DSFR did not work, it came up with an invalid code message!
However, the 'keygen' code DSER worked first time. The only difference between these codes, as far as I can discover, is that DSFR is supposed to activate all options including 500uV/div. The DSER code enables all that DSFR is supposed to do except for the 500u/div option.

Maybe Rigol have removed the 'buggy' 500uV/div option from the latest software/board issue!

Hope that this information is useful to EEVBLOG Forum readers.

73 Dick

Hi, I'm new here :)
I also just got a 1054Z Board Version 0.1.1 and Software Version 00.04.02.SP4

Where can get hold of the keygen please, help would be appreciated

Regards
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on March 20, 2015, 03:10:04 pm
Here you go:
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)

Use option code DSEF. Do not use DSFR or DSBA - 500uV Vertical as this does not work and causes problems with the scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Vostro on March 20, 2015, 03:15:18 pm
Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnnyBerg on March 20, 2015, 03:18:11 pm
Hmm .. is this forum supposed to support illegal activities.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on March 20, 2015, 03:21:30 pm
It is not illegal. If you are not comfortable doing it, then don't. Dave's stand on this is clear too, if you own it, it is your to do as you wish. Rigol even put Dave's video on how to hack the DS1052E on their website!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnnyBerg on March 20, 2015, 03:27:32 pm
It is not illegal.

I find that very hard to believe.
It is the same procedure as a keygen to unlock software. Is that legal?

Quote
If you are not comfortable doing it, then don't. Dave's stand on this is clear too, if you own it, it is your to do as you wish. Rigol even put Dave's video on how to hack the DS1052E on their website!

Then why then sell it?
Or is the world divided into smart asses that can hack stuff, and losers who pay for it?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on March 20, 2015, 03:37:05 pm
This is an international forum. You can't just make a statement that something is illegal and I can't say that it isn't, not everywhere. Some people actually think this is a marketing tactic by Rigol now.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Vostro on March 20, 2015, 03:40:41 pm
I'm not going to argue legalities.

But Rigol got me to purchase their Scope, and in the future a Rigol arb Generator.

And their Brand is growing, even in my Country, and they getting more exposure.

I'm sure they are going to do very well
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Muxr on March 20, 2015, 03:45:49 pm
It is not illegal.

I find that very hard to believe.
It is the same procedure as a keygen to unlock software. Is that legal?

Quote
If you are not comfortable doing it, then don't. Dave's stand on this is clear too, if you own it, it is your to do as you wish. Rigol even put Dave's video on how to hack the DS1052E on their website!

Then why then sell it?
Or is the world divided into smart asses that can hack stuff, and losers who pay for it?
It's a gray area. On one side you should be able to hack and mod anything you own. Who cares if you move bits jail break whatever. You paid for it, you should be able to play with it, you're voiding the warranty perhaps.

On the flip side the hackability is one of the reasons Rigol is so popular right now. If there was a Siglent hack to unlock a 50mhz scope into a 100mhz one it would be more popular I guarantee it.

If you think about it, it lets Rigol push products in all the segments. Companies who buy their equipment aren't going to hack. So they are not cannibalizing their own sales to businesses by having cheap 100mhz scopes. But it also improves their market penetration and adoption because of the popularity in the community due to the hacks.

It's a win for Rigol and hobbyists.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on March 20, 2015, 04:23:16 pm
I have bought two scopes, a spectrum analyser and a power supply from Rigol. I doubt I'd have done so if there wan't some after market fettling to be done, and two of those items were purchased before a fettle had even been published, anticipating that there might be one available, which indeed in due course there was.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EPLan on March 20, 2015, 05:12:56 pm
Here you go:
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)

Use option code DSEF. Do not use DSFR or DSBA - 500uV Vertical as this does not work and causes problems with the scope.

I've just got one of these scopes(same software/hardware revisions as Vostro) and have some questions...the poster you replied to referenced another post that used the code DSER to unlock everything except 500uV Vertical, you are suggesting using the code DSEF to do the same - does it matter which code is used(different licence keys generated), how/why are you using different codes to each other?

Second question is how does this affect the warranty? And if it affects it negatively is it possible to revert back to the original firmware/remove the feature keys?

Thanks in advance.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on March 20, 2015, 05:18:30 pm
Oops, sorry, DSER is correct :-[
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 20, 2015, 05:18:59 pm
Some people actually think this is a marketing tactic by Rigol now.

I'm pretty sure it is.

You can ask on any forum and they'll tell you to buy a DS1054Z.

If they had to buy that much publicity and word-of-mouth recommendations? I don't think they could.

But the scarcity of the 'scopes for actual purchase ... what's the deal with that?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 20, 2015, 05:19:49 pm
Second question is how does this affect the warranty? And if it affects it negatively is it possible to revert back to the original firmware/remove the feature keys?

a) Don't know
b) Yes
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: austingeorge on March 21, 2015, 07:22:29 am
Hi All,

Has anyone who has opened their DS1054Z noted the fan size?
I'll be opening mine up to change it as its pretty loud, and don't want to circumvent the warranty sticker more than once if I have to.

Many thanks,
Austin  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on March 21, 2015, 07:37:28 am
But the scarcity of the 'scopes for actual purchase ... what's the deal with that?

It could genuinely be the difficulty of ramping up production, exacerbated by delays due to the port strikes in the US. Maintaining quality control and increasing production takes time.

However, I would also not be surprised if it's a way to make those in a hurry purchase a more expensive version of the same scope which is in stock. Remember, before the DS1054Z came along it was the DS1074Z that was the generally accepted hot scope in town. Have to say, they could easily have added on $50 to the DS1054Z and they'd still have sold just about as many, and made a significantly healthier margin with it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MAS3 on March 21, 2015, 01:59:41 pm
... and don't want to circumvent the warranty sticker more than once if I have to.

OK, that's up to you.
Does the warranty sticker have some indication that shows how often it has been breached ?
Or: who's going to know (or care) how many times it has been opened if once is already too much ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on March 21, 2015, 02:10:09 pm
But the scarcity of the 'scopes for actual purchase ... what's the deal with that?
Artificial scarcity to make people who cannot afford to be back-ordered for weeks pony up for the DS1074Z, DS2072A or other models in the $600-1000 range.

It could genuinely be the difficulty of ramping up production
The DS1054Z is exactly the same scope as all the other DS1xxxZ, so the production should be fairly well sorted out by now. Well, exactly the same except for the stickers with the model number on it.

OK, that's up to you.
Does the warranty sticker have some indication that shows how often it has been breached ?
Or: who's going to know (or care) how many times it has been opened if once is already too much ?
I think he meant the waxed paper trick to remove warranty seals without breaking them. If I did that, I would simply leave the sticker on the waxed paper and only re-apply it if I need to send the scope back for warranty. Once the seal is broken, it is broken and usually quite obvious.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 21, 2015, 02:30:24 pm
I think he meant the waxed paper trick to remove warranty seals without breaking them. If I did that, I would simply leave the sticker on the waxed paper and only re-apply it if I need to send the scope back for warranty. Once the seal is broken, it is broken and usually quite obvious.

You mean the hairdryer trick? Does that work on Rigols? I've been wondering how to get at the noisy fan without voiding the warranty.

On the same subject: Where do I get a good, quiet fan...?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on March 21, 2015, 03:36:14 pm
You mean the hairdryer trick? Does that work on Rigols? I've been wondering how to get at the noisy fan without voiding the warranty.

Yes it does.  I used a heat gun from several inches away and the sticker came off without me even having to touch it.

Quote
On the same subject: Where do I get a good, quiet fan...?

I replaced the fan in my 1054z with this one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835352002&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_- (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835352002&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_-)

You'll need to modify the connector to a 2-pin one.  It has somewhat less air flow -- still  more than enough for this scope -- but  it's incredibly quiet.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MAS3 on March 21, 2015, 03:42:00 pm
Well, that answers austingeorges question:

It's a 50mm x 50mm fan.
Bonus: It has a 2 wire connector.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LightlyDoped on March 21, 2015, 04:33:24 pm

Second question is how does this affect the warranty? And if it affects it negatively is it possible to revert back to the original firmware/remove the feature keys?


There are instructions posted about how to remove the installed options, but I can't see how one would do that in all instances, e.g., where the scope can't boot in the first place. As others have stated, the laws on warranties vary depending upon where you live. But since Rigol seems to be aware of the prevalence of (and arguably even aquiescing in) installing the options without paying the fairly exorbitant price, they would have a hard time rejecting a warranty claim for a problem that was unrelated to the installed options.

I'd bet most companies that purchase Rigol scopes buy the more expensive models or actually pay for the options. It's the hobbyist or first-time buyer who is most likely to buy an entry-level model and use the well-known method for unlocking the options. This is at least one reason that the DS1054Z is selling faster than Rigol can build them. Not a bad problem for Rigol to have.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 21, 2015, 05:18:38 pm
As others have stated, the laws on warranties vary depending upon where you live. But since Rigol seems to be aware of the prevalence of (and arguably even aquiescing in) installing the options without paying the fairly exorbitant price, they would have a hard time rejecting a warranty claim for a problem that was unrelated to the installed options.

Plus: It would only take one "I hacked my bandwidth and they didn't honor my warranty" post in a forum like this one to destroy their good name and cut their sales to home-users in half. It would be sales/marketing suicide to do so.

Much better to balance the supply/demand so there's a month or so of backlog on orders. Most home users will wait a month, businesses will pay for a DS1104Z to jump the queue. There'll be good will and happiness all around.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: electr_peter on March 21, 2015, 05:25:46 pm
I replaced the fan in my 1054z with this one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835352002&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_- (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835352002&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_-)
You'll need to modify the connector to a 2-pin one.  It has somewhat less air flow -- still  more than enough for this scope -- but  it's incredibly quiet.
What is required voltage? 12V?

I also have DS1054Z and it is a bit noisy. I am under impression that the noise comes partly from the amount of air rushing through the case holes. Or does the noise come solely from fan?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 21, 2015, 05:29:18 pm
I am under impression that the noise comes partly from the amount of air rushing through the case holes. Or does the noise come solely from fan?

The two things aren't unrelated ... slower fans are quieter and move less air.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on March 21, 2015, 10:45:21 pm
The two things aren't unrelated ... slower fans are quieter and move less air.

Exactly. 

Quote
What is required voltage? 12V?

Like almost all equipment fans these days, it's 12 volts.  I don't recall if 1000z changes the voltage to the fan to regulate the speed, but this does happen in a lot of other equipment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on March 22, 2015, 12:26:49 am
The two things aren't unrelated ... slower fans are quieter and move less air.
Assuming both are of comparable design and build quality. It does not matter how fast the fan is spinning when the fundamental design is hopeless.
Title: Rigol DS1054Z has died
Post by: Fenichel on March 23, 2015, 04:12:22 am
  My DS1054Z seems to have died.  Yesterday it was working well all day.  Today it freezes during its boot sequence:  The state changes it gets to are, as shown by the lighted indicators,

It stays in the last state, unresponsive to any button pushes.  Has anyone else seen this failure mode?  Is there some way (say, holding certain buttons in during power-on) to force a reset out of it?  I have of course asked Rigol to advise me, but sometimes this board is more informative.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: chavotronic on March 23, 2015, 12:57:49 pm
Second question is how does this affect the warranty? And if it affects it negatively is it possible to revert back to the original firmware/remove the feature keys?

a) Don't know
b) Yes

Has anyone a hint where i can find informations about how to remove the installed options? Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marooned on March 23, 2015, 01:16:21 pm
chavotronic, 8 pages ago [74].
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 23, 2015, 01:39:13 pm
Has anyone a hint where i can find informations about how to remove the installed options? Thanks!
search here for option:uninstall
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lpc32 on March 23, 2015, 01:48:13 pm
Yes it does.  I used a heat gun from several inches away and the sticker came off without me even having to touch it.
How did you stick it back on?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: chavotronic on March 23, 2015, 01:51:35 pm
Has anyone a hint where i can find informations about how to remove the installed options? Thanks!
search here for option:uninstall

Found it! Many thanks! :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 23, 2015, 02:33:35 pm
Yes it does.  I used a heat gun from several inches away and the sticker came off without me even having to touch it.
How did you stick it back on?

It's just a sticker - stick it back on!

(Usually you put it on a piece of wax paper for safe storage. It won't stick to that so you can just peel it off and reapply it to the 'scope when needed)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on March 23, 2015, 02:35:26 pm
Yes it does.  I used a heat gun from several inches away and the sticker came off without me even having to touch it.
How did you stick it back on?

It still sticks well after it cools down.  Probably you couldn't repeat this more than a couple of times, but I've only done it once.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lpc32 on March 23, 2015, 05:44:38 pm
Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: g8bnr on March 24, 2015, 06:14:20 am
I have tried the 'UNISTall' option, so far without success. Am I missing something, the instructions seem simple enough, in 'Ultra Sigma' type in the command ':SYST:OPT:UNINST', activate the command and job done!!

Help, any ideas?

73 Dick
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 24, 2015, 09:07:59 am
:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

Try writing all letters
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: g8bnr on March 25, 2015, 06:43:50 am
Thank you, Datman. That works fine.

73 Dick
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: v81 on March 26, 2015, 07:04:40 am
The little yellow plastic tings that come on the end of the probes, what purpose do they serve?

Also are they supposed to stay on the end of the probe?

Mine keep falling off :-//

(1st scope, so this is all a bit new, apologies if it's a silly question)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on March 26, 2015, 07:28:35 am
The little yellow plastic tings that come on the end of the probes, what purpose do they serve?

Also are they supposed to stay on the end of the probe?

Mine keep falling off :-//

(1st scope, so this is all a bit new, apologies if it's a silly question)
See this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/retractable-hook-tip-on-rigol-ds1054z-scope-doesn't-stay-on-its-probe-!/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/retractable-hook-tip-on-rigol-ds1054z-scope-doesn't-stay-on-its-probe-!/)
Read it all.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: v81 on March 26, 2015, 11:07:41 am
The little yellow plastic tings that come on the end of the probes, what purpose do they serve?

Also are they supposed to stay on the end of the probe?

Mine keep falling off :-//

(1st scope, so this is all a bit new, apologies if it's a silly question)
See this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/retractable-hook-tip-on-rigol-ds1054z-scope-doesn't-stay-on-its-probe-!/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/retractable-hook-tip-on-rigol-ds1054z-scope-doesn't-stay-on-its-probe-!/)
Read it all.  ;)

Read through it and watched the video too, all good stuff.
There was a suggestion that the yellow part was to help with the measuring of pins on IC's.
But i never found an answer as to why it won't stay attached.

The hooks attach nicely, no problem there, but the yellow pieces will not stay on regardless of how hard i push them on.

Still looking for an answer.
If i missed it would you point me directly to what i'm looking for?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on March 26, 2015, 11:17:59 am
The little yellow plastic tings that come on the end of the probes, what purpose do they serve?

Also are they supposed to stay on the end of the probe?

Mine keep falling off :-//

(1st scope, so this is all a bit new, apologies if it's a silly question)
See this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/retractable-hook-tip-on-rigol-ds1054z-scope-doesn't-stay-on-its-probe-!/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/retractable-hook-tip-on-rigol-ds1054z-scope-doesn't-stay-on-its-probe-!/)
Read it all.  ;)

Read through it and watched the video too, all good stuff.
There was a suggestion that the yellow part was to help with the measuring of pins on IC's.
But i never found an answer as to why it won't stay attached.

The hooks attach nicely, no problem there, but the yellow pieces will not stay on regardless of how hard i push them on.

Still looking for an answer.
If i missed it would you point me directly to what i'm looking for?
That seems piss poor manufacturing, never come across that before.  :palm:
Maybe Bluetack would stick them on, but it could be a bit messy....
Might they be made of Thermo-plastic that might shrink when heated?

If I'd supplied them I'd be moaning to my suppliers for replacements.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on March 26, 2015, 11:29:23 am
The ... yellow pieces will not stay on regardless of how hard i push them on.
FWIW, they're hit & miss IME (I've 2 that will stay on, and the other 2 that won't without help).

Perhaps try a bit of tape on the inside of the yellow pieces, and see if that helps.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on March 26, 2015, 11:37:40 am
The ... yellow pieces will not stay on regardless of how hard i push them on.
FWIW, they're hit & miss IME (I've 2 that will stay on, and the other 2 that won't without help).

Perhaps try a bit of tape on the inside of the yellow pieces, and see if that helps.  :)
:palm:
You would be real happy if they fell off when probing a densly populated high powered circuit and allowed the GND ring to contact a component lead. BANG shit pants,  :-BROKE DUT,  :-BROKE scope and probe.  :wtf:  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on March 26, 2015, 12:01:59 pm
The ... yellow pieces will not stay on regardless of how hard i push them on.
FWIW, they're hit & miss IME (I've 2 that will stay on, and the other 2 that won't without help).

Perhaps try a bit of tape on the inside of the yellow pieces, and see if that helps.  :)
:palm:
You would be real happy if they fell off when probing a densly populated high powered circuit and allowed the GND ring to contact a component lead. BANG shit pants,  :-BROKE DUT,  :-BROKE scope and probe.  :wtf:  :palm:
Not an instance where you'd want to be using the cheapest possible probes though (especially when you know the covers slip off super easy). ;)

For what you describe, I'd be after better probes (not only to be sure the covers stay, but more accurate signal). Probably a jig/probe holder as well (I've been known to be accident prone).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitwelder on March 27, 2015, 07:27:31 am
By the way, the Rigol probe tips are needle sharp!
To avoid injuries (and perhaps also to avoid getting them accidentally in contact with circuits) would you recommend to have the hook tip attached, or how do you keep your probes?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: plazma on March 31, 2015, 11:04:02 am
I received my unit today. After testing it I unlocked the options. There was over 30h trial time which is now "Official".
The SW version is 00.04.02.SP4 and board version is 0.1.1.
I used the code generator at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/) with the option DSER (500uV vertical NOT enabled).

This thread is huge and finding the right info is quite difficult. There is even wrong info on some post. It would be nice if huge threads like these would have the current info edited on the first post.

The probes are quite low quality. None of them kept the yellow cap in place. The 1x position is loose and sometimes causes noise.
Luckily I have Agilent 500MHz probes coming.

(http://plazma.kapsi.fi/pictures/temp/Rigol_DS1054Z.JPG)
(http://plazma.kapsi.fi/pictures/temp/Rigol_DS1054Z.JPG_options.JPG)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dewalt58 on April 01, 2015, 12:07:24 am
That's great plazma!!! :-+ Mines suppose to ship tomorrow from Tequipment, crossing my fingers ;D Thanks for sharing the results on the unlock, looking foreword to doing the same!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: arekm on April 01, 2015, 01:04:00 pm
Do not use DSFR or DSBA - 500uV Vertical as this does not work and causes problems with the scope.

Just to clarify - enabling itself causes problems? Or only using 500uV doesn't work.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ripnet on April 01, 2015, 02:53:49 pm
That's great plazma!!! :-+ Mines suppose to ship tomorrow from Tequipment, crossing my fingers ;D Thanks for sharing the results on the unlock, looking foreword to doing the same!!

Mine also. Here's to hoping it's not an April Fool's joke.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on April 01, 2015, 02:58:55 pm
Do not use DSFR or DSBA - 500uV Vertical as this does not work and causes problems with the scope.

Just to clarify - enabling itself causes problems? Or only using 500uV doesn't work.

As far as I know, as I have not tried it myself, it does not work AND causes other problems too. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on April 01, 2015, 05:17:14 pm
That's great plazma!!! :-+ Mines suppose to ship tomorrow from Tequipment, crossing my fingers ;D Thanks for sharing the results on the unlock, looking foreword to doing the same!!

Mine also. Here's to hoping it's not an April Fool's joke.
Found the following on TEquipment's DS1054Z page (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=true)...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: danny_isr on April 02, 2015, 03:15:16 am
mine shipped today as well  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on April 02, 2015, 03:24:39 am
Do not use DSFR or DSBA - 500uV Vertical as this does not work and causes problems with the scope.

Just to clarify - enabling itself causes problems? Or only using 500uV doesn't work.

As far as I know, as I have not tried it myself, it does not work AND causes other problems too. I could be wrong.

The scope will appear to work the 500uV range will show a signal but it will be incorrect. The danger of course is that there is no indication of a fault, the scope will appear to work. That can cause massive problems both in design and repair. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: drakke on April 02, 2015, 04:41:51 am

The probes are quite low quality. None of them kept the yellow cap in place. The 1x position is loose and sometimes causes noise.
Luckily I have Agilent 500MHz probes coming.


You really can't expect Agilent quality in a $400 4-ch oscilloscope.
And 500MHz Agilent probes are close to $100ea used on ebay anyway.

Dave did a video on the RP2200 probes and found them adequate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHbooMWS0bU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHbooMWS0bU)

If you remember please do a comparison between the RP2200 and the Agilent probes.

I am curious as to how much noise is normal. There is a thread here that looks into this issue.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on April 02, 2015, 05:17:21 am

The probes are quite low quality. None of them kept the yellow cap in place. The 1x position is loose and sometimes causes noise.
Luckily I have Agilent 500MHz probes coming.


You really can't expect Agilent quality in a $400 4-ch oscilloscope.
And 500MHz Agilent probes are close to $100ea used on ebay anyway.

Dave did a video on the RP2200 probes and found them adequate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHbooMWS0bU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHbooMWS0bU)

If you remember please do a comparison between the RP2200 and the Agilent probes.

I am curious as to how much noise is normal. There is a thread here that looks into this issue.

It's always critical to understand your own equipment. Dirty connectors, performance limitations of cabling and hardware, test jigs and signal sources all count.

So are you going to return the Rigol probe, clean the switch (cycle it 100 times), throw it in the bin or name Mr Scratchy and put it in a drawer?

The good thing is that you have identified an issue. It's important to trust equipment but not so far that you don't test it. Whenever you have a statement like, "That doesn't seem right" check your gear or at least think maybe you should. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marooned on April 02, 2015, 09:44:46 am
Is there a simple way to disable already enabled 500uV mode? Or the only way is to uninstall all and then put new code again?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on April 02, 2015, 09:48:58 am
Is there a simple way to disable already enabled 500uV mode? Or the only way is to uninstall all and then put new code again?
Uninstall & reinstall a new code that skips the 500uV option is the only way I know it works.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on April 02, 2015, 12:54:32 pm
Hi
I had no clear, install with DSER in DS1074Z, without enabling 500uV Vertical , then I can install the DSBA option to enable or must be disabled?

Regards
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on April 02, 2015, 01:00:58 pm
Hi
I had no clear, install with DSER in DS1074Z, without enabling 500uV Vertical , then I can install the DSBA option to enable or must be disabled?
No, do not enable it, it doesn't work.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on April 02, 2015, 01:04:57 pm
Hi
I had no clear, install with DSER in DS1074Z, without enabling 500uV Vertical , then I can install the DSBA option to enable or must be disabled?
No, do not enable it, it doesn't work.

Thanks !!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sakos on April 03, 2015, 01:22:35 pm
Hello,

I received my DS1054Z some weeks ago. I has to wait more than two months. Great device, I really like it.

What are your experince with "Multi-level intensity grading display"? Should it show less frequent signal paths with lower intensity like an analogue scope? I tested with pseudo-random signal but I think only two intensity levels are shown: normal and a darker. Not a big deal but I expected more.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: electr_peter on April 03, 2015, 01:33:19 pm
What are your experince with "Multi-level intensity grading display"? Should it show less frequent signal paths with lower intensity like an analogue scope? I tested with pseudo-random signal but I think only two intensity levels are shown: normal and a darker. Not a big deal but I expected more.
64 intensity levels are present which is more than enough in most cases. With very simple signals all you get is few grades if you think about it.

For stable signals, intensity graded display has a little benefit. However, for unknown or unstable signals it is much better. And it really shines in situations where analog signal is modulated.

In short, I would have to be pressed hard to go back to non-intensity graded display.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on April 03, 2015, 01:37:22 pm
Hello,

I received my DS1054Z some weeks ago. I has to wait more than two months. Great device, I really like it.

What are your experince with "Multi-level intensity grading display"? Should it show less frequent signal paths with lower intensity like an analogue scope?
Take a look at Dave's summary review (EEVBlog #703) where he demonstrates the feature, describing it as one of the best on the market.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aveekbh on April 03, 2015, 01:47:45 pm
What are your experince with "Multi-level intensity grading display"? Should it show less frequent signal paths with lower intensity like an analogue scope? I tested with pseudo-random signal but I think only two intensity levels are shown: normal and a darker. Not a big deal but I expected more.

Yes, intensity grading mimics the intensity control of an analogue scope. See Dave's review on it - https://youtu.be/W2qdtQkBKhc?t=1921 (EEVBlog #704).

[Edit - added the time (32:01) and episode title to the URL.]
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sakos on April 03, 2015, 07:07:54 pm
What are your experince with "Multi-level intensity grading display"? Should it show less frequent signal paths with lower intensity like an analogue scope? I tested with pseudo-random signal but I think only two intensity levels are shown: normal and a darker. Not a big deal but I expected more.

Yes, intensity grading mimics the intensity control of an analogue scope. See Dave's review on it - https://youtu.be/W2qdtQkBKhc?t=1921 (EEVBlog #704).

[Edit - added the time (32:01) and episode title to the URL.]

Hmmm. Made some tests. It seems that the behaviour depends on the horizontal time base and the memory depth settings. The higher refresh rate of the signal the more grades of intensity levels.
On low frequency signals (like audio) I can differentiate only two levels. The display persistency time settings has no effect on it except 0.

Thanks for the responses. Now I understand better. This is an amazing DSO for its price.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aveekbh on April 04, 2015, 04:15:50 am
It seems that the behaviour depends on the horizontal time base and the memory depth settings. The higher refresh rate of the signal the more grades of intensity levels.
On low frequency signals (like audio) I can differentiate only two levels. The display persistency time settings has no effect on it except 0.

The waveform update rate drops at long time bases, so I suppose intensity grading will not make sense without persistence. I should try this out with a low frequency signal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hopeANDhope on April 04, 2015, 09:19:27 pm
Model DS1054Z. I can confirm that the trick to unlock all features still works for Software version: 00.04.02.sp4

Firstly, i used the  DSFR option, then i re-entered new codes with the DSER on. I do not have spotted any problems so far. I think it works fine, all options are available.

Now, it Works as if i have a DS1104Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gandel on April 09, 2015, 08:40:37 pm
I sent you a pm with it
       hi, can I get "eevblog discount code" for ds1054z on tequpment.com? Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: plazma on April 09, 2015, 08:48:10 pm
Btw. are there any discount codes for European resellers like Batterfly or Batronix?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ManicMaurice on April 09, 2015, 09:29:28 pm
hi, can I get "eevblog discount code" for ds1054z on tequpment.com? Thanks

I sent you a PM with the code. :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gandel on April 09, 2015, 10:46:24 pm
hi, can I get "eevblog discount code" for ds1054z on tequpment.com? Thanks

I sent you a PM with the code. :)
      Thank you! One more question--how can I apply that code on tequipment.com?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: XFDDesign on April 09, 2015, 11:09:51 pm
Get through the checkout process, and on the second-to last step, there is a box for a coupon code. If you're having to enter your payment information, you've gone too far.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gandel on April 10, 2015, 12:32:42 am
Get through the checkout process, and on the second-to last step, there is a box for a coupon code. If you're having to enter your payment information, you've gone too far.
   Thank you!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jakelin on April 10, 2015, 03:39:47 am
hi, can I get "eevblog discount code" for ds1054z on tequpment.com? Thanks

I sent you a PM with the code. :)

This has taken me out of lurker land.  Would it possible for me to get a code too?  About to pull the trigger and pick one of these up!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tve on April 10, 2015, 07:10:26 am
This is probably a FAQ by now, but I can't readily find an answer: Any suggestions for "must have" accessories to a DS1054Z scope? A better probe?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 10, 2015, 07:49:39 am
Any suggestions for "must have" accessories to a DS1054Z scope? A better probe?
The probes are good enough for me. Some of them have issues with the 1x/10x switch in the 1x position, which are measurable with a resistance meter, but don't seem to affect scope measurements under normal circumstances. Of course, if you have special requirements (differential probes, HV, current measurement or whatever), those might imply the need for additional probes.

A couple of good 50 Ohm pass-through terminators are important in my view, since the scope does not have built-in 50 Ohm termination at its inputs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Galenbo on April 10, 2015, 02:11:21 pm
... After testing it I unlocked the options. ...
I used the code generator at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/) with...
Who is the owner of this website?

How to be sure that your scopes don't start playing sponsored promo videos as from 2016 ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 4cx10000 on April 10, 2015, 02:27:21 pm
 
Quote
How to be sure that your scopes don't start playing sponsored promo videos as from 2016 ?
  :-DD

Think it is a trusted website, but who knows what happen when we finally get there   :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Galenbo on April 10, 2015, 02:30:09 pm
I just got an email with a link to a pdf with new and old prices:

http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Priceadjustment_Rigol.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Priceadjustment_Rigol.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ruffy91 on April 10, 2015, 02:54:09 pm
How to be sure that your scopes don't start playing sponsored promo videos as from 2016 ?
I am super confident this won't happen as the DS1xxxz scopes don't even have an RTC. Maybe on the DS2xxx series :-D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on April 10, 2015, 02:56:25 pm
I just got an email with a link to a pdf with new and old prices:

http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Priceadjustment_Rigol.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Priceadjustment_Rigol.pdf)
So the DS1054Z is going up by from 299 to 339 euros. Given that US dollars and euros are almost at parity at the moment it will be interesting to see if this will affect the rather higher $399 list price in the States.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: elgonzo on April 10, 2015, 03:49:15 pm
So the DS1054Z is going up by from 299 to 339 euros. Given that US dollars and euros are almost at parity at the moment it will be interesting to see if this will affect the rather higher $399 list price in the States.
Remember that those Euro prices are without VAT.
Considering that the DS1054Z appeals to hobbyists/private buyers, for many the effective price difference will be larger than EUR40 (depending on national VAT rates...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ManicMaurice on April 10, 2015, 05:07:00 pm
This has taken me out of lurker land.  Would it possible for me to get a code too?  About to pull the trigger and pick one of these up!

PM Sent. Enjoy. :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 10, 2015, 08:34:20 pm
New forum member here... just got my scope two days ago. UPS just dropped it off on the front porch... of the vacant house next door! It's a miracle that I found it before some of the local kids did. This, in spite of it being correctly addressed, our house numbers easily visible from the street, and "signature required" supposedly specified from the shipping end.
 
Imagine my chagrin when I checked the UPS tracking site and saw "Delivered".... when there's nothing delivered! On a hunch I went out to the street and looked around... and saw the boxes on the porch of the vacant house next door. Facepalm!! We filed a complaint with UPS Customer Disservice but what are you gonna do?

At any rate... it's here, working well. I've been checking it out over the past two days running it continuously. I'm very pleased with it so far... but I found a minor error, started a new thread to discuss that, please check it out.

It also seized up on me once, while I was setting cursors. It still showed a live waveform capture but would not respond to any buttonpresses or knobs at all. Fixed by power-cycling. But this caused me to lose the setup, since I had "Default" set on the Utility>System>Power Set option, instead of "Last". So I recommend changing this to "Last", since it's easier to change an existing setup than it is to restore a complicated lost one when powering on. 

Hasn't happened again, thank goodness.

Fan noise is not nearly as bad as you lot made me expect! I even bought a replacement Fractal Design fan for it, anticipating some kind of vacuum-cleaner whine from the stock fan.. but it's not even as loud as my computer! So the replacement fan is in the wings, I won't install it until the other one starts whining or something. Probes seem OK too, I don't use 1x much so haven't found any problems with the switches, the springclips all work fine and I like the overall feel and long cables on them.

This unit is from "new production", the recent containerload delivered to TEquipment.
FW 00.04.02.SP4
Board 0.1.1
Unlocked with key from Riglol zipfile Linux command-line keygen, compiled for my system, no problem whatsoever.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: elgonzo on April 10, 2015, 08:46:31 pm
Imagine my chagrin when I checked the UPS tracking site and saw "Delivered".... when there's nothing delivered! On a hunch I went out to the street and looked around... and saw the boxes on the porch of the vacant house next door. Facepalm!! We filed a complaint with UPS Customer Disservice but what are you gonna do?
Pick up you box secretly and unobserved, and claim that the package has not been delivered. UPS has nothing to confirm that they delivered the package to you or your neighbors (unless they go criminal and copy your signature you made for a previous delivery). Let the sender and UPS sort out the mess. If they do these shitty things, feel free to exploit it...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 10, 2015, 09:09:54 pm
Heh...  I like the way you think! Unfortunately my evil plans always backfire... with my luck I'd be observed by the little old lady down the street peering through her curtains, and get arrested for stealing my own oscilloscope!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David_AVD on April 10, 2015, 10:14:09 pm
Fan noise is not nearly as bad as you lot made me expect! I even bought a replacement Fractal Design fan for it, anticipating some kind of vacuum-cleaner whine from the stock fan.. but it's not even as loud as my computer!

Exactly.  I guess some people are using them in super quiet environments.  Sure it's noticeable, but hardly loud.   ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Hankus on April 10, 2015, 10:30:50 pm
Just received my DS1054z this past Wednesday, and been following this thread for some time now.  It's good to know that this scope is such a good value that the only thing people have to complain about is the fan which is not nearly as loud as my DS1102E.  BTW System Info currently states I have a DS1104z thanks to yall. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dannyf on April 11, 2015, 12:07:25 am
Quote
feel free to exploit it.

Wow!

Just how low can some people go?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jakelin on April 11, 2015, 03:21:08 am
This has taken me out of lurker land.  Would it possible for me to get a code too?  About to pull the trigger and pick one of these up!

PM Sent. Enjoy. :)

Thank you so much ManicMaurice!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ManicMaurice on April 11, 2015, 06:10:31 am
Quote
feel free to exploit it.

Wow!

Just how low can some people go?

I agree. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And now back to the topic, Rigol DS1054Z.  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 11, 2015, 08:07:09 am
I think he was just kidding... maybe. But I hate to think what might have happened if the UPS driver was "off-by-two" instead of just one, or if I hadn't gone out to look within minutes of the scope being dumped at the vacant house.  Filing a complaint with Customer Service was the right thing to do, maybe the drivers will get some kind of message. Oh well.

Yes, back to the DS1054z. I'm not getting much action on the thread I started about the minor error I think I've found so I'll repost it here:

When the CH1 "units" are set to "A" for amps, and the CH2 "units" are set to "V" for volts, and the Math is set to do CH1xCH2, the Offset and Scale come up automatically correctly in "W" units for Watts. But this "W" unit is not passed on to the Measurements, neither selected from the LH screen menus or in the All Measure table. These units stay in whatever you've put in for the CH1 units, in my case "A". This seems like a "fail" in the software. I hope some other users can check my work to see if this is happening on all the scopes, and if so, I hope that it can be put on the list for Rigol to correct with the next firmware revision.
Please see the scopeshots below.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on April 11, 2015, 10:30:48 am
While I'm sure it's a bug/unimplemented feature, I am not sure how many people actually spend time setting up their scopes to this level. I may be wrong, but certainly I've never been bothered to do this on any scope I've had, my scope setups tend to be very dynamic in nature, having to spend time configuring the channel annotations every time I moved a probe would be painful.

I do sometimes set up PC-based logic analysers with annotated channels, but it is much easier as you have a keyboard.

Maybe in a static demonstration I could see this being useful on a scope, but for day to day probing I wouldn't bother.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 11, 2015, 03:16:43 pm
While I'm sure it's a bug/unimplemented feature, I am not sure how many people actually spend time setting up their scopes to this level. I may be wrong, but certainly I've never been bothered to do this on any scope I've had, my scope setups tend to be very dynamic in nature, having to spend time configuring the channel annotations every time I moved a probe would be painful.

I do sometimes set up PC-based logic analysers with annotated channels, but it is much easier as you have a keyboard.

Maybe in a static demonstration I could see this being useful on a scope, but for day to day probing I wouldn't bother.

This has nothing to do with "Annotating" the channels, that is, assigning the little labels on the left side of the screen. It is a problem with the way the scope handles the _units_ of the channels while doing math and reporting the results of math. Since I got this scope primarily because I do need to do power and energy computations I want it to work correctly in that regard.

It's not a "bug" when an instrument reports "A" for Amps when it should be saying "W" for Watts... it's an _error_. Perhaps you don't see it that way, and that's your privilege, I suppose. What if the numerical value was off by, say, 10 percent? Would that be a "bug"?

You set the "units" of the channels simply by selecting the channel, and looking at the bottom menu item on the first page, where it says "Unit". Setting an "annotation", that is, the Label of the channel, is the first item on the second page and requires fiddling with the "keyboard" and I agree, often it is not worth the effort. However, it's easy to store setups (Storage>Storage>Setups>Save>select Local Disk>New File>enter filename>OK) which saves the entire setup including channel labels, for future use by easy recall. Why have a feature at all (the ability to select the Units (not just labelling) of the channel) if it's not going to be implemented properly?

This, to me, is a much bigger deal than the "noisy fan" issue, which I find to be a non-issue altogether since mine isn't nearly as loud as, say, the computer or other fans that are running in my lab.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 11, 2015, 03:41:37 pm
And, after all of that, I think my scope may have an actual hardware problem that might make me have to return it, if it doesn't straighten itself out.

There is definitely something wrong with CH4, and I'd like other owner/users to check their scopes to see if they have these problems too.

When any two of the other channels are turned on, even if no signal is being applied to them, CH4 gets a 1 volt or greater positive offset when in 5v/div or greater vertical scale. There's a relay that clicks when going from 2v/div to higher values, and when this relay clicks the offset hits. But only if two of the other channels are on. This happens whether CH4 is in AC or DC input coupling. But sometimes (rarely) it doesn't happen, seems almost OK but is noisier than the other channels, then after several seconds it will "jump" to the +1V offset. This is a real drag because the 5V/div setting is used a lot (by me anyhow) and a 20 percent positive offset error is unacceptable. It's fine at settings of 2V/div or less -- except see below.

Also, when no inputs to anything are plugged in, and CH4 is set to 10mV/div (the most sensitive setting with 10x probe attenuation selected) and AC-coupled input is selected, the channel jumps to _one full division__ of negative offset. Sometimes even more. Over 10mV of negative offset in AC coupled, in the 10mV/div range on CH4 !! This is regardless of whether other channels are on or not, it's a steady thing and doesn't matter what other settings are in use. And of course it is still there when an actual input is fed to the channel.

These problems are not due to probes or signals, they can be demonstrated with nothing connected to the scope at all.

The other three channels are fairly well behaved, there are slight offsets in certain conditions but acceptably small. The CH4 behaviour seems to indicate some kind of hardware problem, _I think_. I've tried self-calibration several times, am just about to test after Yet Another self-calibrate (it takes about 18 minutes for the self-cal routine to run).

I hate returning stuff. Especially after the long wait and the tension of UPS "delivery".  I wonder if I should just "suck it up" and consider CH4 unreliable in certain conditions. One (even when the one is ME) hardly ever needs 4 channels anyway ... but GRRRRRRR.....

ETA: OK, after the latest self-calibrate run, the CH4 set at 5V/div now has about a 3/4 volt _negative_ offset when DC coupled, and a 2 1/2 volt negative error when AC coupled, and is noisier than the other channels.

Scopeshot below shows all probes connected to the scope's Calibrator output. CH1 and CH2 are DC-coupled, CH3 and CH4 are AC-coupled. Note the negative offset of the CH4 trace.  CH3 is about right. Acquire mode "Average" with 2 averages selected, auto memory depth.

ETA2: And now, with no inputs (probes unplugged) and channels set to 10 mV/div, CH1 and 2 DC coupled, CH3 and 4 AC coupled, I get _30 mV_ of negative offset and lots of noise on CH4. See the second screenshot below. All four channels are set to have baseline at the center of the screen. There is definitely something wrong somewhere.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 11, 2015, 03:46:50 pm
It's not a "bug" when an instrument reports "A" for Amps when it should be saying "W" for Watts... it's an _error_. Perhaps you don't see it that way, and that's your privilege, I suppose. What if the numerical value was off by, say, 10 percent? Would that be a "bug"?
The fine points of the English language may escape me here -- in a piece of software, "bug" and "error" are the same to me...

There is a thread on bugs (errors?) and suggestions for the DS1000Z series: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/), which should be a good place to post your issues. Personally, I share Howard's feeling that this is of limited significance, because I never use the unit settings anyway.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 11, 2015, 04:07:04 pm
It's not a "bug" when an instrument reports "A" for Amps when it should be saying "W" for Watts... it's an _error_. Perhaps you don't see it that way, and that's your privilege, I suppose. What if the numerical value was off by, say, 10 percent? Would that be a "bug"?
The fine points of the English language may escape me here -- in a piece of software, "bug" and "error" are the same to me...

There is a thread on bugs (errors?) and suggestions for the DS1000Z series: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/), which should be a good place to post your issues. Personally, I share Howard's feeling that this is of limited significance, because I never use the unit settings anyway.

Well, I must say I am flabbergasted. I was under the impression that test instruments were supposed to work correctly _whether a particular user_ uses a particular feature, or not!  You never use the unit settings anyway-- that, to me, indicates that you either don't do current or power measurements, or you are setting your oscilloscope incorrectly when you do!

Thank you for telling me about the "bug" thread, I'll post this "bug" there now, since I am quite sure that at least _some_ users do use the "Unit" setting feature and would like the Measurements and All Measure table to report _correct units_ of the measurements they indicate.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on April 11, 2015, 05:01:48 pm
alsetalokin4017:

I am not sure the value of getting upset about the semantics of whether a bug is an error or not. To me a bug is an error in the programming, I am not sure where the difference lies in your understanding and mine.

Many of us do make current and power measurements, on a very regular basis, it's just that we don't feel we need a scope to show "W" or "A" when we can do that in our heads. Setting up the scope to do that is just a chore in my view. In the Neanderthal world before that functionality was generally available on a scope at this level, say two years ago, we had to use our heads for this. In the years before that, the same went for scope probes without readout and having no means of adjusting the V/div. I understand that this functionality might be important to you, and yes it is nice to have an instrument that works 100% all the time, but sometimes regrettably life's not like that. Frankly I am impressed that if you have V on Ch1 and A on Ch2, it is smart enough to automatically give W on a Math Ch1 x Ch2 trace. My Agilent scope just says "VA" or "AV" depending on the order the channels are multiplied. What is good is that we are able to identify when something's not right, and we can work out what that is and whether we can work around it.

By the way, my scope doesn't show your discrepancies. Can you confirm that you re-cal'd without the probes connected at the BNCs?

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d123/photobucket391/DS1Z_QuickPrint1_zpsn2qutvnq.png) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/photobucket391/media/DS1Z_QuickPrint1_zpsn2qutvnq.png.html)

Please consider that we don't sit here spending our spare time sending replies on eevblog with the aim of irritating you. You were complaining about not having had responses from a thread you opened, and now regretfully, I responded. We're actually trying to help and possibly sometimes try to put things into perspective. Please bear that in mind when posting, you may find that not only do you benefit more from the responses, you'll find you may also achieve more help from more people that way. Nobody, I assume you included, likes getting their head bitten off when they've been trying to help. If you think the Rigol is bad, please don't even think about purchasing a Hantek for I fear you may spontaneously combust!

We are trying to help.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 11, 2015, 05:43:08 pm
@Howardlong: Thank you for testing the AC offset issue on your scope. It looks like you do have a small offset but that would be acceptable. Yes, I definitely ran calibrations with the scope well warmed up (hours of running) and with nothing whatever connected to any inputs.

My problem now seems to be intermittent. The CH4 offset issue comes and goes, with some dramatic screen glitches on the CH4 trace. I think there is definitely some hardware problem. Sometimes it settles down and is well behaved; just now I'm watching it with nothing plugged into any inputs, all channels at 5V/div DC-coupled,  and the CH4 trace will sometime start glitching horribly, full-screen noise; by rotating the V/div knob rapidly to 100V and back down, or between 2v and 5v/div  I can get it to settle down and be stable again... Looks like I'm going to have to get an RMI authorization and return it under warranty. More UPS adventures....

I apologise for my frustration in earlier posts. I've been waiting for this scope for a long time and by and large it's wonderful, but this CH4 problem has really got my goat.

I hope nobody is going to tell me "Well, I don't use CH4 so it's not really a problem, forget about it."
LOL... where's the "wink" smiley?

(I see that your scope has the logic analyzer and the signal source, so it's not a DS1054z... presumably you bought it because you wanted those features and you depend on them to work correctly... I've been "doing it in my head" for many years using analog scopes....kind of disappointing that a DSO also makes me "do it in my head"...)
Insert another "winky" smiley here...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on April 11, 2015, 06:37:57 pm
I've just ordered one from Batronix , hope to get it at end of April.

/Bingo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Armxnian on April 11, 2015, 07:39:31 pm
Can someone send me the discount code for tequipment? Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on April 11, 2015, 08:13:42 pm
I've just ordered one from Batronix , hope to get it at end of April.

When i get it, and i want to "enhance it"  ;)  , is that best done with the original fw ?
Or should i upgrade (if possible) to the latest fw first.

/Bingo

Batronix don't seem to update firmware in my experience so you get what's been factory shipped. Two other Rigol suppliers I've used do open the box up and update the firmware as necesary. However, if it's right off the boat I suspect it'll have a very recent firmware on it anyway.

The reason I mention this is that on one DS1074Z-S I bought from Batronix it had oldish firmware that didn't accept SCPI option installs. Updating to the latest firmware fixed that.

I'd download the current firmware just in case it disappears. That has the infamous jitter fault resolved at least.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Corporate666 on April 11, 2015, 08:43:11 pm
Pick up you box secretly and unobserved, and claim that the package has not been delivered. UPS has nothing to confirm that they delivered the package to you or your neighbors (unless they go criminal and copy your signature you made for a previous delivery). Let the sender and UPS sort out the mess. If they do these shitty things, feel free to exploit it...

Yeah, really stupid idea.  I ship a lot with UPS and I occasionally have had a customer do this kind of stuff.

First off, it's theft.  It's not "being sly", it's outright fraud.  And in some places, it's a felony.  To me, it's not very intelligent to be a criminal, but especially not to make yourself a felon over a $400 oscilloscope. 

When you claim to UPS that a package was not delivered, they don't just pay out and leave it at that.  The driver is sent back to talk to you.  He will say "Oh, I left it at this address next door - you didn't get it?".  So it's not a crime that you get away with just with a phone call... you'll have to lie to the UPS's guy's face.  UPS will then contact the police who will most likely come out and take a report and perhaps ask a neighbor or two if they saw anything.  You best hope they don't see the scope in your house or nobody sees the box being thrown out, etc, etc. 

Not to mention, when you do this to UPS, your address is marked as "do not leave packages" *forever*.  Which means that every...single...package you ever get will need an adult signature.  You cannot sign the slip and leave it on your door.  You cannot ever get them to leave packages ever again.  You will have to either be home or 100% of the time go to the UPS depot, show ID, and pick up your stuff.


Heh...  I like the way you think! Unfortunately my evil plans always backfire... with my luck I'd be observed by the little old lady down the street peering through her curtains, and get arrested for stealing my own oscilloscope!

Hopefully I'll remember "I like the way you think!" if you ever have a post about being scammed, etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on April 11, 2015, 09:01:20 pm
My problem now seems to be intermittent. The CH4 offset issue comes and goes, with some dramatic screen glitches on the CH4 trace.
Check your probe for an intermittent X1/X10 switch - out of my two DS1054Z, I have three probes with chronic switch issues on the X1 position and two or three more I wouldn't trust either.

As for the offsets, the channel offsets on both of my scopes jump around depending on which channel combination is enabled and some channels drift by as much as 2/5th of a division over time. Some people have said offsets can even vary depending on the order channels are enabled but I have not noticed that specific quirk on mine.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Armxnian on April 11, 2015, 10:00:08 pm
Can someone send me the discount code for tequipment? Thanks

Either use the tequipment chat on Monday, or ask in the proper thread, don't clutter this one!

Your useless post cluttered this thread more than had you just pm'd me  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: paulie on April 11, 2015, 11:00:55 pm
Regarding clutter why are people being forced to beg for the secret code? This is supposedly available to all EEvblogers so why the intrigue? It might be better to simply post the code rather than have everybody jump through hoops. I suppose it's because those with "power" enjoy making noobs dance.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on April 11, 2015, 11:11:00 pm
Regarding clutter why are people being forced to beg for the secret code? This is supposedly available to all EEvblogers so why the intrigue? It might be better to simply post the code rather than have everybody jump through hoops. I suppose it's because those with "power" enjoy making noobs dance.

It has been posted a few times, but Evan of Tequipment asked people not to post it again.

You only need it if you want to order when Tequipment is closed... which is kind of pointless since they won't process the order until they're open again.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Armxnian on April 11, 2015, 11:42:02 pm
Regarding clutter why are people being forced to beg for the secret code? This is supposedly available to all EEvblogers so why the intrigue? It might be better to simply post the code rather than have everybody jump through hoops. I suppose it's because those with "power" enjoy making noobs dance.

It has been posted a few times, but Evan of Tequipment asked people not to post it again.

You only need it if you want to order when Tequipment is closed... which is kind of pointless since they won't process the order until they're open again.

Where has it been posted? The first page of this thread has someone asking for the code, and so does the last...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on April 11, 2015, 11:51:43 pm
Where has it been posted? The first page of this thread has someone asking for the code, and so does the last...
Most posts with the info have been either edited or deleted.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ManicMaurice on April 12, 2015, 01:07:18 am
It has been posted a few times, but Evan of Tequipment asked people not to post it again.

You only need it if you want to order when Tequipment is closed... which is kind of pointless since they won't process the order until they're open again.

Where has it been posted? The first page of this thread has someone asking for the code, and so does the last...

PM Sent.

And now we're back on topic, Rigol DS1054Z.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitwelder on April 12, 2015, 07:22:00 am
Batronix don't seem to update firmware in my experience so you get what's been factory shipped. Two other Rigol suppliers I've used do open the box up and update the firmware as necesary. However, if it's right off the boat I suspect it'll have a very recent firmware on it anyway.
BTW, how to get notification of newer f/w releases (apart of perusing EEVblog forum :D)?
By sending the scope registration card (or its electronic equivalent) to Rigol?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on April 12, 2015, 08:18:21 am

I'd download the current firmware just in case it disappears. That has the infamous jitter fault resolved at least.

Any url's where to download that ?

I can't seem to find it at Batronix , and at Rigo i have to request it (doesn't have a SN, as i have not gotten the unit)

/Bingo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on April 12, 2015, 08:24:49 am
Batronix don't seem to update firmware in my experience so you get what's been factory shipped. Two other Rigol suppliers I've used do open the box up and update the firmware as necesary. However, if it's right off the boat I suspect it'll have a very recent firmware on it anyway.
BTW, how to get notification of newer f/w releases (apart of perusing EEVblog forum :D)?
By sending the scope registration card (or its electronic equivalent) to Rigol?

Keeping an eye on here has been my method. I'm not aware of a public central repository. There is a list here of latest versions http://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Get-the-latest-RIGOL-firmware-p/firmtest.htm (http://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Get-the-latest-RIGOL-firmware-p/firmtest.htm) but typically getting hold of it is "on request" from dealers unless you happen to see a link on here.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: cs.dk on April 12, 2015, 08:26:06 am
It would be handy, if someone would who gets the new firmware would upload it here. Maybe make a "Rigol DZ1000 firmware thread"..

I'm also waiting on my device to ship from Batronix.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on April 12, 2015, 11:06:35 am
Since a number of questions seem to come up frequently on this thread, I have added an 'FAQ section' to the first message.

It currently contains details of the firmware jitter fix, the 'hack', the tequipment discount code and links to Dave's blogs about the scope.

Suggestions for additions or corrections are welcome.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bzzz on April 12, 2015, 12:01:01 pm
Btw. are there any discount codes for European resellers like Batterfly or Batronix?

I don't know about discount codes, but Batronix sent a mail that prices will increase very soon. I don't have the mail anymore (at least at home), but the DS1054Z will rise to about 400 Euros including VAT. Many many other items will get more expensive, too, because of the adverse USD:EUR exchange rate shift in the last months. So if you want it, better get it today. As far as I recall, the new prices will be in effect next week...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: theDiver on April 12, 2015, 12:14:20 pm

Unlocked with key from Riglol zipfile Linux command-line keygen, compiled for my system, no problem whatsoever.
Where can I get that tool?

My scope should arrive this month :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on April 12, 2015, 12:19:29 pm

Unlocked with key from Riglol zipfile Linux command-line keygen, compiled for my system, no problem whatsoever.
Where can I get that tool?

My scope should arrive this month :-)

 :palm: Why do I even bother?

A couple of posts ago I mentioned that a link to the hack is now available on the first post in this thread.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: paulie on April 12, 2015, 12:37:10 pm
:palm: Why do I even bother?

Rolycat, don't get annoyed. How can we ever boost our post count if it were not for spaced out noobs. I must say that first post is one of the best ones ever. All you would need in one place yet no TMI overload. I think many thread makers underestimate the importance of keeping post one updated.

So I guess just mentioning EEvblog is enough for the discount? If so then my criticism of the PM game is unjustified. Looks like many of the beggars do not realize the code is optional.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SeanB on April 12, 2015, 12:40:32 pm

Unlocked with key from Riglol zipfile Linux command-line keygen, compiled for my system, no problem whatsoever.
Where can I get that tool?

My scope should arrive this month :-)
TLDR syndrome. Probably the best way is to make a new topic with the right keywords, put the info in it and post it, then lock it and ask an admin ( Simon, Seppy or Dave) to make it sticky, so it will show up in the first page of posts in test equipment.

Works till the first page gets full, when an admin will have to make a decision as to which ones go unsticky. That way when a TLDR chimes in, or there is an update, you can simply point them to the thread, and updates you as originator can unlock, post then relock the thread.

 :palm: Why do I even bother?

A couple of posts ago I mentioned that a link to the hack is now available on the first post in this thread.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on April 12, 2015, 12:48:12 pm
Btw. are there any discount codes for European resellers like Batterfly or Batronix?

I don't know about discount codes, but Batronix sent a mail that prices will increase very soon. I don't have the mail anymore (at least at home), but the DS1054Z will rise to about 400 Euros including VAT. Many many other items will get more expensive, too, because of the adverse USD:EUR exchange rate shift in the last months. So if you want it, better get it today. As far as I recall, the new prices will be in effect next week...

MCS in the UK are currently offering 10% off their Rigol kit if you use the code 'rigolcomp' at checkout. Their prices go up on the 15th, and the DS1054Z won't be in stock until mid-June. You may be able to order one at the old price, though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: plazma on April 12, 2015, 12:54:03 pm
MCS in the UK are currently offering 10% off their Rigol kit if you use the code 'rigolcomp' at checkout. Their prices go up on the 15th, though, and they don't have the DS1054Z in stock.
Thanks. I already received my unit from eleshop.eu. One friend is also interested about buying one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 12, 2015, 05:16:59 pm
My problem now seems to be intermittent. The CH4 offset issue comes and goes, with some dramatic screen glitches on the CH4 trace.
Check your probe for an intermittent X1/X10 switch - out of my two DS1054Z, I have three probes with chronic switch issues on the X1 position and two or three more I wouldn't trust either.

As for the offsets, the channel offsets on both of my scopes jump around depending on which channel combination is enabled and some channels drift by as much as 2/5th of a division over time. Some people have said offsets can even vary depending on the order channels are enabled but I have not noticed that specific quirk on mine.

Nope, it's not the probe(s). Actually all 4 of my probes seem fine, switches work, springhook clips have their insides, etc. When it decides to glitch, the CH4 glitch is there even when no probes at all are connected and the scope is just running along in "Auto" trigger showing channel baselines, as long as the channels aren't "Ground" input-coupled. It seems to have gotten worse over time, too. I'm afraid I'm going to have to return it.
What's really odd is that when it's _not_ glitching, the CH4 is the most stable and lowest-noise of the 4.
The amplitude of the glitch is much greater when 5V/div is selected, and almost goes away when 2V/div or lower is selected, until really sensitive settings in the tens of mV are selected.
(Also tested with and without the 100MHz and other features "unlocked", no effect on glitching.)


So Monday I'll be talking to TEquipment to see what we can do about getting a replacement unit, hopefully sent to MY house not the vacant one next door.

ETA: Could it still be a software/calibration issue? It was glitching almost continuously a little while ago, so I decided to try the self-calibration Yet Again (probably the 5th time I've done it, always after thorough warm-up (and with nothing connected to any inputs, as per the Manual instructions and the Big Note that comes up on the screen, heh...) and now it's running along with CH4 perfectly stable and low-noise, only a tiny offset of about 1/2V in 5V/div vertical scale. See the screenshot below, in Pass-Fail mode waiting for a glitch to come up. No probes connected.

I think that the reason it updates more slowly when a "fail" waveform is detected, as Dave noted in the video review,  is so that the user has time to Stop the scope and do a screen capture before the glitch disappears. Here I've got it set to Stop on Fail, and if/when it does I'll capture that in a screenshot.

@Corporate666:
Quote
Hopefully I'll remember "I like the way you think!" if you ever have a post about being scammed, etc.

Humor-deficient, are we? Can't recognize a joke? As a "newbie" I did not feel right responding with outright criticism of the suggested theft, as you have done, so I responded instead with a little attempt at humor while still rejecting the suggestion-- which I think was probably a joke in the first place. As I said in a later post, contacting UPS customer service with a complaint was _the right thing to do_ and that's exactly what I did. You should know, though, that a signature WAS "required", yet the driver obviously ignored that requirement when he/she dropped off the expensive package at the wrong, vacant, house in a neighborhood known for items "disappearing" from front porches.
Or, maybe _you_ are only joking? Hard to tell with text.

ETA: It has started glitching again, no probes connected. See below. This is "minor" compared to how wild it can get.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 12, 2015, 05:34:30 pm
As far as the Unlocking "hack" is concerned, I've seen several people report that the website doesn't generate proper codes. I've confirmed this is true for at least some serial numbers.
If anyone has this problem... let me make a suggestion:
Find and download the "riglol.zip" file and run the Windows .exe or the HTML app included in that file, or if you are a Linux user, compile and run the Linux command-line app (makefile included in the Linux portion of the zipfile). You may get a different code than you get from the website, and this new code may work where the website's did not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: keninvic on April 13, 2015, 05:08:20 pm

I'd download the current firmware just in case it disappears. That has the infamous jitter fault resolved at least.

Any url's where to download that ?

I can't seem to find it at Batronix , and at Rigo i have to request it (doesn't have a SN, as i have not gotten the unit)

/Bingo

The most current update (as of Jan 2015) is here --> http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0576/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000ZUpdate.zip?sid=tips2o74i (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0576/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000ZUpdate.zip?sid=tips2o74i)

The proper procedure is to request for a firmware update under the Software tab on this page ---> http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bzzz on April 13, 2015, 06:42:29 pm
Btw. are there any discount codes for European resellers like Batterfly or Batronix?

I don't know about discount codes, but Batronix sent a mail that prices will increase very soon. I don't have the mail anymore (at least at home), but the DS1054Z will rise to about 400 Euros including VAT. Many many other items will get more expensive, too, because of the adverse USD:EUR exchange rate shift in the last months. So if you want it, better get it today. As far as I recall, the new prices will be in effect next week...

FYI: http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Preisaenderung_Rigol.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Preisaenderung_Rigol.pdf)
DS1054Z -> 299 to 339€ excl. VAT (403€ including 19%)

I guess other vendors will do the same, so if you want any Rigol equipment, hurry up, you got 27 hours to place your order.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on April 13, 2015, 06:53:01 pm

I'd download the current firmware just in case it disappears. That has the infamous jitter fault resolved at least.

Any url's where to download that ?

I can't seem to find it at Batronix , and at Rigo i have to request it (doesn't have a SN, as i have not gotten the unit)

/Bingo

The most current update (as of Jan 2015) is here --> http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0576/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000ZUpdate.zip?sid=tips2o74i (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0576/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000ZUpdate.zip?sid=tips2o74i)

The proper procedure is to request for a firmware update under the Software tab on this page ---> http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/)

Thanx for the fw url  :-+

But regarding the "proper way of requesting" , i don't suppose i'll have much luck , as i haven't got my scope yet.
And therefore doesnt have a Serial to supply to Rigol, as i also wrote.

TIA

/Bingo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: justtim on April 14, 2015, 06:58:41 am
Concerning the scope: I just got my DS1054z about a week ago. Such a neat little scope (nice to see that some things are still made well) after having worked with an out-dated analog one for years.  Concerning the hack, I don't mind paying for the options as a way of supporting them for providing such a scope at such a reasonable price - just bought the serial decoder, which I must admit works really well.  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Stereodude on April 14, 2015, 03:38:49 pm
What sort of budget solutions are people using for differential measurements & clip on current measurements with their DS1054Z scopes?  Both differential and current probes can easily exceed the cost of a DS1054Z and I figured the resourceful owners of this scope have more budget oriented solutions.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on April 14, 2015, 07:20:51 pm
Welcome to the forum.

What sort of budget solutions are people using for differential measurements & clip on current measurements with their DS1054Z scopes?  Both differential and current probes can easily exceed the cost of a DS1054Z and I figured the resourceful owners of this scope have more budget oriented solutions.  :)
Welcome to the world of advanced measurements.
For accurate and trusted measurements there are few options.

Use the Search button close to your profile, not the one top right.
You should be able to find several recent threads on these topics.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: figo on April 14, 2015, 10:18:15 pm
Hello
 I am also waiting for a DS1054Z and I have a doubt, which is the private key and where can I get?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kk6by on April 15, 2015, 01:06:36 am
Just got my DS1054 and it is a nice scope.  Tried to unlock features and got the invalid license message (has 00.04.02 SP4).  Anyone have any ideas or suggestions.  Thanks in advance.  Also what can I do to get around the "install avoid for 12 hours"?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Stereodude on April 15, 2015, 01:16:45 am
Welcome to the forum.
Thanks.
Quote
Welcome to the world of advanced measurements.
For accurate and trusted measurements there are few options.

Use the Search button close to your profile, not the one top right.
You should be able to find several recent threads on these topics.
Based on my searches of the forum, per your suggestion, there is no such thing as a low cost clip on current probe that is reasonably accurate for AC & DC but there are a few low cost crappy ones for sale.  Likewise there are no high voltage low cost differential probes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitwelder on April 15, 2015, 06:41:42 am
Hello
 I am also waiting for a DS1054Z and I have a doubt, which is the private key and where can I get?
The license key is generated starting from a private key (which is different for each Rigol model, but not each S/N).
Once you type a serial number the keygen program web application detects what type of Rigol model is (because of the structure of the S/N) and fills the private key field accordingly. So you currently don't need to worry about it.
Also, in case Rigol in a future will change the 'seeds' used to generate the license by changing the private keys (but without changing the basic algorithm), you will still have the possibility to manually input the new values there.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: figo on April 16, 2015, 12:19:28 am
thanks for answering, so to say that just need to enter the series of the scope and the software will fill the keygen field and generate new keys?  :clap:

 I will wait to arrive to test the switch to ds1104z.   8)


Greetings
 figo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DanielS on April 16, 2015, 05:11:48 am
A couple of days ago, I posted about requesting warranty replacements for flaky probes - five of my original DS1054Z probes between two scopes had an intermittent 1X and one of them, not sure if it was one of those five, also had a problem with the sharp-tipped nib getting stuck in the hook attachment.

I received my five replacements from Rigol this morning, after a painless but slow warranty replacement request made worse by Easter holidays. Out of those five, one had a somewhat flaky switch out-of-the-box, though still better than my 5th worse original probe. Time to see how well these will hold up over the next month or two of use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitwelder on April 16, 2015, 05:49:57 am
thanks for answering, so to say that just need to enter the series of the scope and the software will fill the keygen field and generate new keys?  :clap:
To try it before your DSO arrives, find one of the many YT videos you can find with a 'rigol hack' search, and pick *their* S/N ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: figo on April 16, 2015, 08:51:55 pm
thanks for answering, so to say that just need to enter the series of the scope and the software will fill the keygen field and generate new keys?  :clap:
To try it before your DSO arrives, find one of the many YT videos you can find with a 'rigol hack' search, and pick *their* S/N ;D


Hello
 I did what you said and did not go well.

 Appears an error, ERROR: INVALID PRIVATE KEY LENGTH  |O
 In private key did not enter anything.  :-//
  You were joking or serious?   :-[














Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on April 16, 2015, 09:13:26 pm
Why are you entering the key?

Just enter the serial number and the option code. The JavaScript will populate the key.

The private key box is only provided in case Rigol changes the keys embedded in the firmware. For the DS1XXX series you do *not* need to populate the box by hand.

You may need to refresh the page and start from scratch. Just enter the serial and option code (DSER)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: figo on April 16, 2015, 11:00:10 pm
This is the message that appears.
 print screen
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on April 17, 2015, 02:10:54 am
When you type in the serial number it will fill the private key box. If it does not, your browser can go die in a fi- oh, it's IE. It can go DIAF anyway.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: g8bnr on April 17, 2015, 03:54:57 pm
Today, I checked and if I get to Riglol in Internet Explorer, then I get, a version without a number, which displays the error 'Invalid Private Code' because it did not generate one. If, on the other hand, I get to Riglol, at the same Web address, in Mozilla Firefox, then I get version 1.03, this time a Private Code is generated from the Serial Number and it all works correctly. I don't know why this happens, maybe somebody can explain.

I, also, have a copy of Riglol.exe, don't know where I found this program, which works correctly at the Command Prompt and does not need the 'Private Code', which is labelled 'optional'.

Hope that this information is useful.

Dick G8BNR
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 17, 2015, 08:03:44 pm
Today, I checked and if I get to Riglol in Internet Explorer, then I get, a version without a number, which displays the error 'Invalid Private Code' because it did not generate one. If, on the other hand, I get to Riglol, at the same Web address, in Mozilla Firefox, then I get version 1.03, this time a Private Code is generated from the Serial Number and it all works correctly.

I cannot confirm this. Just tried this, with the serial number of my DS1054Z, and using the gotroot.ca website. Whether I use Firefox 36 or Internet Explorer 11, the "private code" field is correctly populated as soon as I enter the serial number and move on to the next field. Entering "DSER" in the options field and clicking the "Generate" button then creates the exact same unlock code in either browser.

On the other hand, when I enter an invalid serial number, no private key is generated, and the "Invalid private key length" error message pops up. If you get that message, I think having mistyped (or misread) the serial number is the most likely cause.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: g8bnr on April 17, 2015, 08:42:15 pm
My Internet Explorer is version 8 and my system uses Windows XP. I confirm that I entered the serial number several times, just to avoid typing errors. Therefore the problem must relate to my version of Windows and Internet Explorer.

Hope this clarifies the situation.

Dick G8BNR
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yattr on April 17, 2015, 10:21:13 pm
Just got my DS1054 and it is a nice scope.  Tried to unlock features and got the invalid license message (has 00.04.02 SP4).  Anyone have any ideas or suggestions.  Thanks in advance.  Also what can I do to get around the "install avoid for 12 hours"?

I also just received a DS1054Z  It came with all options in trial version for 35 hours.  Independent of which DSxx codes I use they all result in " install avoid for 12 hours"  Any suggestions for flipping trial version to installed....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: figo on April 17, 2015, 11:23:02 pm
This is the message that appears.
 print screen



I have Windows Vista with iexplorer 9, tried dozens of times and never got it.  |O

 I downloaded Mozilla Firefox and it was at the first stroke.  :-+

 For whatever reason the iexplorer does not ...  :-//


 Thank you all for the help.   :clap: :clap:














Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 18, 2015, 01:27:27 pm
If you get the "install avoid for 12 hours" it means that you entered an invalid key and tried too many times. The scope has no Real-Time-Clock, it only knows run-time, so you must leave the scope turned on for 12 hours so that the "install avoid" time will run out. Probably, every time you try to enter an invalid code it resets the 12-hour clock, so if you get this message just stop, leave the scope on, and come back after 12 hours.

It is easy to mis-read or mis-copy the Serial Number and the unlock key. Common mistakes are mistaking "S" for "5" and "B" for "8".  Check your typing very carefully before you press the "apply" button.

It may be easier to do it using the UltraVision software and SCPI commands directly from your computer over the USB connection, or using "telnet" over your LAN to send SCPI commands, than it is by using the tiny little "keyboard" thing in the Options Setup window on the scope. If you want/need to uninstall the unlocking at some point, you will need to use one of these methods anyway, so you might as well figure out how to do it. See the "MS1000Z-DS1000Z Programming Guide" for a complete list of the SCPI command codes and some information about setting up communication with your scope.

For me, using Linux, "telnet" is the easiest way, once the scope is connected to the LAN and it fetches an IP address from the DHCP router. Connect to your router by ethernet cable, then select
Utility>IO Setting>LAN Conf.>Configure> select DHCP, then "Apply" and "Initialize"
The scope should fetch an IP address from the router and put it in the box in the LXI window. Write down this IP address.

The Rigol communication port is 5555. So: in a Terminal window command prompt, enter

telnet IPaddress 5555

(insert your own scope's local IP address that it fetched from your router)
opens the telnet application and contacts the scope on port 5555.

Then send

*IDN?

and the scope should reply with its identification.

Then you can send any of the SCPI commands in the Programming Guide, control the scope's functions remotely, and install or uninstall the unlocking codes using the SCPI commands:
:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall
:SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall and your 28character key without hyphens

to close the telnet connection and exit the telnet program enter:
^] close

(The "^]" means to hold down the Ctrl key while pressing the ] key, this is the "escape" character that puts telnet into command mode.)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yattr on April 18, 2015, 04:02:28 pm
Outstanding information - THANKS!!!  Will give this a try.  I was using Terminal on OSX to generate the codes and will attempt your ethernet connection for the install...

 ;^)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on April 18, 2015, 08:21:20 pm
For me, using Linux, "telnet" is the easiest way

Just what the doctor ordered  :-+ :-+

I'm getting my scope start/mid May

/Bingo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 18, 2015, 11:47:01 pm
I forgot to say...

I mentioned earlier that my scope had a bad glitch on CH4 and I posted a few screenshots. Well, I found that the glitch was really bad, so I shot a video demonstrating the glitch and how to use the Pass-Fail Mask function to trap the glitch for display:
Scoposcopy: Rigol DS1054Z Pass-Fail: FAIL on CH4.... rampant glitches (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RvcByoEE5o#ws)

And our buyer talked to Jason at Rigol and to the nice ladies at TEquipment, and based on the video I got a quick RMA and sent the scope back on Monday morning. Thursday evening at 9:45 a replacement was delivered by UPS 2nd day air.
 
So I've been burning that one in ever since then, and so far it is performing well, no trace of a glitch. Oddly enough, the package was only single-boxed rather than the usual double-box package, and the serial number of the new scope is quite a bit earlier than the one I returned (If I am interpreting the numbers properly). Has this one been out of its box somewhere before? Outer box lost or missing? Hmmm..... Well, I'm not going to complain about that... Let's hope this one holds up and doesn't develop any problems. It does seem a slight bit more "jittery" and trace noisy than the other one but maybe that's just my imagination; I can't compare directly now of course.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on April 19, 2015, 08:10:51 am
I forgot to say...
I mentioned earlier that my scope had a bad glitch on CH4 and I posted a few screenshots.

Could you do a short post about setting up the pass/fail , and what limits you are using ?
I have my DS1054Z on the way.

TIA
/Bingo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 20, 2015, 01:55:37 am
I forgot to say...
I mentioned earlier that my scope had a bad glitch on CH4 and I posted a few screenshots.

Could you do a short post about setting up the pass/fail , and what limits you are using ?
I have my DS1054Z on the way.

TIA
/Bingo
Sure, it's very easy to do.

First display the waveform you want to run the Pass-Fail testing on. Set the H and V positions, trigger, vertical scale etc. just as you like it.

Then press the Utility button, and from the menu that comes up, press Pass/Fail.

Then press the Enable button, and the Source button to select the channel of your waveform.

Then press the Range button, and select whether you want to use the whole screen or just a portion between cursors. I usually am using the whole screen.

Then you can "squeeze the mask in the X and Y directions using the X Mask and Y Mask buttons and the Multifunction Knob, to give more or less clearance around your waveform. The white mask cursors only stay on while you are moving the knob and they go out pretty fast...

Then press Create and your mask will be created around your waveform according to where you put the mask cursors in the previous step. Or you can omit the X Mask and Y Mask steps and just push Create, and the mask will wrap around your waveform automagically pretty closely.

Then press the "return arrow" button at the bottom to go back one level.

There you can select Stat Disp to display the waveforms counter.

Page down to the next page from here using the grey bottom button, and you can select "Stop on Fail" on or off, the beep tone on or off, and the aux output on the back on or off.

Then go back with the grey top button and press Operate... and you are all set! You should see the waveform counts incrementing in the Stats box. If you selected "Stop on Fail" ON, then the scope will stop when a waveform exceeds the mask, and you can save the glitch to the USB drive if you want to. Restart waveform capture by pressing Run/Stop,  and then to restart the mask testing, press Operate again.

You can also save a mask for re-use later using the Save and Load buttons on the second page of the menu.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jeroen13 on April 20, 2015, 04:46:20 pm
Hello,

Since a couple of weeks I have a ds1054z with serial decode/trigger, yesterday I was debugging I2C bus everything worked. But today it will nog trigger on any of the I2C options (start/stop/adress/nack)  is there something I can do ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on April 20, 2015, 05:54:38 pm
@alsetalokin4017

Thanx for the detailed description  :-+

/Bingo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on April 20, 2015, 07:12:57 pm
Could you do a short post about setting up the pass/fail , and what limits you are using ?
/Bingo
On the topic of Pass/Fail  (although I have DS2000)
You may wish to uses cursors to narrow the pass/fail function  ( speeds up the test)
Also use infinite persistence to see if error is always the same

see Pix #1 , Shows a triggering bug on the DS2000, but I doubt it is on the DS1000 as it only occurs at fast risetimes.
                    Note the Error trace is bright as I captured the display at the error , there is a Stall in the updating

See Pix #2 Shows where the pass waveforms counter rolls over to a negative number; then continues positively
                  I think this occurs on the DS1000 also but to test use the fastest update rate and leave over night  :)
                  If Rigol wished to increase the counter (2 words) then the Maximum digits in the display area could
                  increase from 10 to 12 , or 999,999,999,999 wqaveforms

For error reporting it would be nice if Rigol FW had the option to 'Stop on Count' ( 1,000,0000)
So one could test and report errors per million, etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 20, 2015, 07:13:57 pm
@Bingo: You're welcome! I also demonstrate this use of the Pass-Fail Mask function in my "unboxing and testing" video for the replacement scope:
Scoposcopy: Rigol DS1054z, Take Two: Replacement, Unboxing, PassFail testing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY34Kyakflw#ws)


@Jeroen:  Is your scope "hacked" to unlock the I2C trigger options to "Official" versions, or have your unhacked "trail" times run out perhaps? What does the screen say when you select Utility>(bottom grey button to second page) Options>Installed ?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 20, 2015, 07:21:58 pm
@Teneyes:   That's interesting, thanks very much. Is the "triggering bug" a manifestation of the "trigger jitter" problem that has been discussed here? I notice your horizontal trigger offset is quite near 500 microseconds... is this fixable by upgrading to later firmware than what you are running?

The math on the Pass Fail counts is also verry interesting... a programmer's "variable type" fail. Maybe that should be noted in the "wish list" thread for submission to Rigol for future firmware updates?

I have not the patience to wait for some billions of waveforms in testing, though, but someday I may need to, so I think this should be made right, whether or not I might use it myself. Just as the "measurements" units should agree with what the math trace units are....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jeroen13 on April 20, 2015, 07:55:30 pm
@Bingo: You're welcome! I also demonstrate this use of the Pass-Fail Mask function in my "unboxing and testing" video for the replacement scope:
Scoposcopy: Rigol DS1054z, Take Two: Replacement, Unboxing, PassFail testing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY34Kyakflw#ws)


@Jeroen:  Is your scope "hacked" to unlock the I2C trigger options to "Official" versions, or have your unhacked "trail" times run out perhaps? What does the screen say when you select Utility>(bottom grey button to second page) Options>Installed ?

It says official unlocked, I bought it second hand (barely used).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on April 20, 2015, 08:08:14 pm
Hello,

Since a couple of weeks I have a ds1054z with serial decode/trigger, yesterday I was debugging I2C bus everything worked. But today it will nog trigger on any of the I2C options (start/stop/adress/nack)  is there something I can do ?

Can you see a valid I2C signal if you use a simple edge trigger?

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on April 20, 2015, 11:31:48 pm
@Teneyes:   That's interesting, thanks very much. Is the "triggering bug" a manifestation of the "trigger jitter" problem that has been discussed here? I notice your horizontal trigger offset is quite near 500 microseconds... is this fixable by upgrading to later firmware than what you are running?
    The AC trigger bug, That I reported in July 2013, and Highlighted by Dave Jones was fixed by the latest FW for both the DS2000 & DS1000Z. The 'AC Jitter bug' caused such bad jitter that this bug could not be observed until the Jitter bug was Fixed.
For my testing and analysis on the DS2000 see: Here: (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-firmware-00-03-03-01-00-comments-and-bugs/msg580408/#msg580408)
And my conclusion/conjecture Here: (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-firmware-00-03-03-01-00-comments-and-bugs/msg589398/#msg589398)

Below I retested this bug with Bandwidth set to 100MHZ and 1 GSa/s  and the bug does occur,
So I think it may also occur on the DS1000Z(single chan).
It would be interesting to see if it does??
After reading my blog on the bug remember the vertical position must be adjusted to instigate the bug.
Note: The input must have a fast risetime edge.

The math on the Pass Fail counts is also verry interesting... a programmer's "variable type" fail. Maybe that should be noted in the "wish list" thread for submission to Rigol for future firmware updates?
I have not the patience to wait for some billions of waveforms in testing, though, but someday I may need to, so I think this should be made right, whether or not I might use it myself. Just as the "measurements" units should agree with what the math trace units are....
For the pass/fail rollover error,  No Patience neccessary,
Just set the DS1000Z to fastest Update Scan rate (50ns/div)
Then check back in 21 hrs
30,000 x 60 x 60 X 21 hrs = 2,268,000,000


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 21, 2015, 12:41:13 am
@Teneyes:
I've been trying for a half hour or so to reproduce the trigger bug (I read your posts and looked at the pictures) and I have not been able to do it. I'm using a 16 MH pulse signal of around 6V p-p amplitude with rise and fall times of about 3.8 - 4.2 ns, and I've looked at both rising and falling edges. I'm using the 1054z, presently "unhacked" at 50 MHz bandwidth. I've tried various settings in the Acquire menu, different memory depths, and so on. Can't reproduce the things you showed in the pictures.

But that doesn't mean it won't do it, just that I haven't been able to do it with the signal I'm giving it. I'll try to set up a signal that's more like what you were using, low amplitude and lower frequency but still with fast rise and fall edges, later on this evening.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on April 21, 2015, 12:53:05 am
@Teneyes:
I've been trying for a half hour or so to reproduce the trigger bug (I read your posts and looked at the pictures) and I have not been able to do it. I'm using a 16 MH pulse signal of around 6V p-p amplitude with rise and fall times of about 3.8 - 4.2 ns, and I've looked at both rising and falling edges.
But that doesn't mean it won't do it, just that I haven't been able to do it with the signal I'm giving it. I'll try to set up a signal that's more like what you were using, low amplitude and lower frequency but still with fast rise and fall edges, later on this evening.
50MHZ BW maybe too Slow
Biggest thing is to slowly change the Postion up and down,
2 MHz works best, only few edge on display
AC Trigger
My Risetime is 3.5ns, so your pulse may not be fast enough
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jeroen13 on April 21, 2015, 06:10:49 am
Hello,

Since a couple of weeks I have a ds1054z with serial decode/trigger, yesterday I was debugging I2C bus everything worked. But today it will nog trigger on any of the I2C options (start/stop/adress/nack)  is there something I can do ?

Can you see a valid I2C signal if you use a simple edge trigger?

McBryce.

Falling edge trigger works perfectly, even the Math decoding works.
It also seems that the duration trigger isn't working (or I use it incorrectly).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: justtim on April 21, 2015, 07:46:09 am
It may be something as simple as not having the correct scl and sda lines selected. Or maybe you don't have the trigger level set correctly - if you have ch2 set as sda, try setting it to the start bit and moving the trigger level up and down along the waveform of ch2 with the triggering set to "normal" until you get a trigger. Try setting the horizontal to various values such as 100us for example and the voltages to around 2.5. Sometimes just resetting everything to default using "storage button" and "default" and starting over will get you back to where you were.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jeroen13 on April 21, 2015, 07:53:23 am
It may be something as simple as not having the correct scl and sda lines selected. Or maybe you don't have the trigger level set correctly - if you have ch2 set as sda, try setting it to the start bit and moving the trigger level up and down along the waveform of ch2 with the triggering set to "normal" until you get a trigger. Try setting the horizontal to various values such as 100us for example and the voltages to around 2.5. Sometimes just resetting everything to default using "storage button" and "default" and starting over will get you back to where you were.

I have tried that, moving the trigger along, and 100% sure that SCL and SDA is correct (decoding works). Reset the scope several times to default, and did a self-cal nothing helps. Is there a way to reinstall the options ? maybe that helps
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: justtim on April 21, 2015, 08:25:12 am
I'm not sure how you can reinstall the options without the keys. There has been a hack talked about, but not something I'd do just because I don't think it's right. Sometimes it's the simplest things that get me snagged - sometimes I think I have something set a certain way but find out I didn't. Just turn the scl channel off completely (you don't need it to trigger off I2C) and focus on triggering the data line off the start bit. Move the trigger level up until it's anywhere above the baseline of that waveform, with triggering on normal, and it really should trigger. If not, try pushing the "force" button to force the trigger.

The serial decoding (comes with the triggers) is the first option I bought for my scope (the next will likely be the waveform record/playback) and am really pleased with how it works. On my scope it's as solid as a rock and works exactly as it should. I do remember having to use the function to reset everything back to factory defaults once or twice and think that's a pretty handy feature to have built into the scope. I just got my digital scope after using only analog, so It's a real treat, but does take some getting used to.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: justtim on April 21, 2015, 09:44:13 am
This may be like the "blind leading the blind" being new to the rigol digital myself. I just noticed that even though I switch the scl channel off, it still triggers off of it, the sda line continues to show the triggered waveform, and will no longer trigger if I disconnect the scl probe.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on April 21, 2015, 11:18:52 am
:SYSTEM:OPTION:UNINSTALL

over SCPI will uninstall all your options on a DS1000Z.

You can then reinstall the options with

:SYSTEM:OPTION:INSTALL ABCDEFGHIFKDKDKDJRKKFFKFKDKD

Note that you need to remove the separators from the option key.

Serial triggers and serial decode are separate options.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jeroen13 on April 21, 2015, 06:03:11 pm
Found the problem, you will have to set both trigger levels voor SCL and SDA. First select the proper channel for SCL via trigger menu, and than trigger level. After that select proper channel for SDA and than also trigger level. My SDA trigger was set to zero.

Thank you for the help.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shirley Marquez on April 22, 2015, 10:29:23 am
I just got one from TEquipment. Ordered Friday, delivered Tuesday - normal for ground shipment from PA to MA. (TEquipment is based in NJ but my scope was shipped from PA.)

Interestingly, the UPS notification of the shipment said that it was sent from Ingram Micro, though the shipping label says it was sent from Interworld Highway LLC. (Interworld Highway is a holding company that owns TEquipment and a couple of other companies - no secret, it's mentioned on the TEquipment home page.) Ingram Micro is a distributor - perhaps these scopes are being drop-shipped directly from distributor stock rather than being warehoused at TEquipment. That would explain the mystery that some people reported earlier of a free extra being shipped separately - the scope and the extras aren't REALLY being shipped from the same place even though the labels say they are. (The label needs to have the Interworld Highway address because that's where the scope should be returned to if it is undeliverable for some reason.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on April 22, 2015, 09:08:42 pm
I just got one from TEquipment. Ordered Friday, delivered Tuesday - normal for ground shipment from PA to MA. (TEquipment is based in NJ but my scope was shipped from PA.)

Interestingly, the UPS notification of the shipment said that it was sent from Ingram Micro, though the shipping label says it was sent from Interworld Highway LLC. (Interworld Highway is a holding company that owns TEquipment and a couple of other companies - no secret, it's mentioned on the TEquipment home page.) Ingram Micro is a distributor - perhaps these scopes are being drop-shipped directly from distributor stock rather than being warehoused at TEquipment. That would explain the mystery that some people reported earlier of a free extra being shipped separately - the scope and the extras aren't REALLY being shipped from the same place even though the labels say they are. (The label needs to have the Interworld Highway address because that's where the scope should be returned to if it is undeliverable for some reason.)
FWIW, TEquipment has multiple warehouses (can get confusing, particularly when an order is filled from different locations, = doesn't all come in one box; and may not arrive on the same day either), and all of my shipments really have originated from TEquipment based on the UPS label/tracking information.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on April 22, 2015, 09:19:51 pm
I just got one from TEquipment. Ordered Friday, delivered Tuesday - normal for ground shipment from PA to MA. (TEquipment is based in NJ but my scope was shipped from PA.)

Interestingly, the UPS notification of the shipment said that it was sent from Ingram Micro, though the shipping label says it was sent from Interworld Highway LLC. (Interworld Highway is a holding company that owns TEquipment and a couple of other companies - no secret, it's mentioned on the TEquipment home page.) Ingram Micro is a distributor - perhaps these scopes are being drop-shipped directly from distributor stock rather than being warehoused at TEquipment. That would explain the mystery that some people reported earlier of a free extra being shipped separately - the scope and the extras aren't REALLY being shipped from the same place even though the labels say they are. (The label needs to have the Interworld Highway address because that's where the scope should be returned to if it is undeliverable for some reason.)
FWIW, TEquipment has multiple warehouses (can get confusing, particularly when an order is filled from different locations, = doesn't all come in one box; and may not arrive on the same day either), and all of my shipments really have originated from TEquipment based on the UPS label/tracking information.

Ordered from TEquipment, shipped to Canada directly from Rigol US.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gary.M on April 23, 2015, 12:30:22 am
Someone mentioned that the cooling fan is a 50mm square, two wire item. I've just ordered one of those linked below, Sunon Maglev, a very good fan at a reasonable price...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunon-KDE1205PFV3-50mm-x-10mm-Low-Speed-Maglev-2-Pin-Fan-/371287303222 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunon-KDE1205PFV3-50mm-x-10mm-Low-Speed-Maglev-2-Pin-Fan-/371287303222)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: g8bnr on April 23, 2015, 07:28:18 am
Hi Folks,
Is it possible to send a screen shot, from my DS1054Z, to my computer via the LAN connection? I have no difficulty doing it using a USB Memory Stick, but would like to do it direct! Any ideas, please?

73 Dick G8BNR
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: H.O on April 23, 2015, 07:56:21 am
Hi,
As far as I know you can't really "print" directly to the PC with the push of a button on the scope but you can copy the screen from the scope with the push of a button on the PC. The Rigol Ultra Sigma software supports that functionallity and there are at least one third party screen capture tool for Rigol available on this forum. I've only done it with Ultra Sigma on my DS4000 (don't have a DS1000Z) and it works fine.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on April 23, 2015, 08:29:53 am
Hi Gary
Keep in mind that noise doesn't come only from the fan, but also from the metal in front of it. To lower noise you also have to draw back the fan from the chassis.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: g8bnr on April 23, 2015, 08:30:48 am
Hi H.O.
Yes it does work fine, thank you. I do not recall anything about a third party screen capture tool, can you, please advise, I would be most interested to try anything like that.

73 Dick G8BNR
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 23, 2015, 09:00:41 am
I do not recall anything about a third party screen capture tool, can you, please advise, I would be most interested to try anything like that.
Peter Dreisiebner's "Bildschirmkopie" (screen copy) works great for me: http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/). The software is about two orders of magnitude lighter weight than Rigol's mess of a PC software... Also available for Mac and Linux, and works via USB or LAN connection.

Peter's web page is in German only, but if I recall correctly, the software can be switched to English. Don't have it up and running on the PC I am currently writing from, unfortunately.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gary.M on April 23, 2015, 09:32:31 am
Hi Gary
Keep in mind that noise doesn't come only from the fan, but also from the metal in front of it. To lower noise you also have to draw back the fan from the chassis.
Thanks... My scope is on its way,  so I will investigate when it arrives.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: N2CUA on April 23, 2015, 11:57:26 am
Hi guys .. just starting working for TEquipment in technical sales and new to the forum / blog.
Although I do enjoy watching Daves videos and creating my own as well on my N2CUA channel.

I have a question, I used the earlier  mentioned key generator and I did them individually
based on a you tube video of the all functions one not working.
All is well except for the decoder option. That is one option I wanted to get enable because
of all the decode issues. Wanted to work with it a bit with my arduino and see what I would figure out.
And work with Rigol on the issue.

So is the for letters I put in for that option DSAC or DSEC ? Thought maybe thats whats going wrong.

Side note, I have been providing your issues and feedback to the application engineers to send back
to Rigol in China, so keep coming.

Randy - N2CUA
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 23, 2015, 01:36:45 pm
Hi Randy, according to the Riglol page, it's "DSAC"; never tried this myself though. Where does the "DSEC" suggestion come from?

Did I get you right that, as an official Rigol distributor, TEquipment does not get any official licenses for the options from Rigol to demo and support these, but has to rely on the keygen?!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on April 23, 2015, 03:59:12 pm

Side note, I have been providing your issues and feedback to the application engineers to send back
to Rigol in China, so keep coming.

Great!!!  If you haven't already, please refer them to the top post in this thread:

 https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/)

I've been curating this list for quite a while.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Trailboss on April 23, 2015, 08:53:06 pm
Break:

Received my 1054 a few days ago, let it burn in for 24 hours, generated the key for  DSER, (all options except the 500uv vert amp scale),  all options upgraded fine, just gotta get used to all the menus, coming from the analog world dragging myself into the 21st century.
My current analog/digital DSO is Philips 3365A.

 When I ordered the scope from tequip, I asked the sales rep for the EEV discount, she put me through to another agent and applied the discount, shipped out friday from Jersey and got it tuesday (MA).
I bought this because I do some automotive work as well as a lot of vacuum tube audio work, and it is portable enough to look at fuel injector waveforms with my current probe, etc.
Great scope, and TEquip was great to deal with too.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Armxnian on April 23, 2015, 10:09:15 pm
Riglol worked for me as well.  >:D

It was mentioned the hardware does not support the 500uV setting. Is there actually anything disadvantageous with enabling it? I can still see a waveform at that setting.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yattr on April 23, 2015, 10:13:10 pm
Tried using both telnet and Ultra Sigma and can not uninstall the trial version.  |O

The commands work via both methods - cool!

Guess I will have to wait for the trail version to expire before attempting a keygen based install...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: g8bnr on April 24, 2015, 05:55:54 am
Yattr,
Do not 'Uninstall' the 'Trial' version. Just 'Install' using the 'Keygen' and the 'Trial' will be put into suspension, i.e. it's time clock will freeze until the 'Keygen' stuff is 'Uninstalled'.

G8BNR
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on April 24, 2015, 11:09:53 am
Tried using both telnet and Ultra Sigma and can not uninstall the trial version.  |O
Options enable as a Trial are based on Run time of the DSO , as discovered Early in the Hack thread,
With the Trials starting after 470 minutes ,as discussed on page 3 of the 263 page Hack thread , back in June 2013.

The trial options can be installed with a Key also. but Only once.
After I got a  repaired replacement DS2000 I requested and obtained a key for the Trial options!
I never tried to uninstall the Trials!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Galenbo on April 24, 2015, 01:05:28 pm
Hi Folks,
Is it possible to send a screen shot, from my DS1054Z, to my computer via the LAN connection? I have no difficulty doing it using a USB Memory Stick, but would like to do it direct! Any ideas, please?

73 Dick G8BNR

I expierience the same with my DS1204B.
Over USB everything works fine, over LAN there exists a spaghetti of programs, libraries, extensions and codes but nothing works.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yattr on April 24, 2015, 02:07:43 pm
Let the unit run over night to get past the 12 hour issue and repeated the cammands over the lan this morning.  Yes, without uninstalling the trial version, all the the options are now OFFICAL versions ;D

Purely operator error...put in one to many digits in Keygen (apparently it does not check and just uses the necessary number of digits if there are more then enough).  Which then generated a bad code which in turn set a 12 hour hold offer time until the correct code could be entered. 

Made good use of the 12 hours and learned the LAN approach, some commands, Ultra Sigma and Ultra Scope.

Thanks for all the great hep from this site...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 24, 2015, 03:00:09 pm
Is it possible to send a screen shot, from my DS1054Z, to my computer via the LAN connection?
I expierience the same with my DS1204B.
Over USB everything works fine, over LAN there exists a spaghetti of programs, libraries, extensions and codes but nothing works.

Peter Dreisiebner's "Bildschirmkopie" (screen copy) works great for me: http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/). The software is about two orders of magnitude lighter weight than Rigol's mess of a PC software... Also available for Mac and Linux, and works via USB or LAN connection.

Peter's web page is in German only, but if I recall correctly, the software can be switched to English. Don't have it up and running on the PC I am currently writing from, unfortunately.
Did you give Peter's "Bildschirmkopie" a try yet? The web site does not specifically list the DS1204B as being compatible, but I think it should be. Definitely worth a try -- simple, lightweight, and with cross-platform capability as an added bonus for non-Windows fans.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yattr on April 24, 2015, 04:11:06 pm
Is it possible to send a screen shot, from my DS1054Z, to my computer via the LAN connection?
I expierience the same with my DS1204B.
Over USB everything works fine, over LAN there exists a spaghetti of programs, libraries, extensions and codes but nothing works.

Peter Dreisiebner's "Bildschirmkopie" (screen copy) works great for me: http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/). The software is about two orders of magnitude lighter weight than Rigol's mess of a PC software... Also available for Mac and Linux, and works via USB or LAN connection.

Peter's web page is in German only, but if I recall correctly, the software can be switched to English. Don't have it up and running on the PC I am currently writing from, unfortunately.
Did you give Peter's "Bildschirmkopie" a try yet? The web site does not specifically list the DS1204B as being compatible, but I think it should be. Definitely worth a try -- simple, lightweight, and with cross-platform capability as an added bonus for non-Windows fans.

Just tried this on a Mac/OSX and it worked well over LAN.  Simple!  DS1054Z with DSER...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: g8bnr on April 24, 2015, 04:20:43 pm
Yes, I tried the software that you advised and it works fine in Windows XP, thank you for the information. It is so much quicker and easier doing things via my LAN rather than using a USB Stick!

Best regards
Dick G8BNR
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on April 24, 2015, 04:29:51 pm
Just got my DS1054Z today (the Swiss distributor has them in stock) and used the Bildschirmkopie program on OS X to install the DSER license key. Worked like a charm!

Thanks to everyone who posted info and figured this all out, making it easy for a n00b like me!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 25, 2015, 03:47:47 am
I do not recall anything about a third party screen capture tool, can you, please advise, I would be most interested to try anything like that.
Peter Dreisiebner's "Bildschirmkopie" (screen copy) works great for me: http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/). The software is about two orders of magnitude lighter weight than Rigol's mess of a PC software... Also available for Mac and Linux, and works via USB or LAN connection.

Peter's web page is in German only, but if I recall correctly, the software can be switched to English. Don't have it up and running on the PC I am currently writing from, unfortunately.

I can confirm that the "RigolBildschirmkopie" executable in the Linux zipfile works over the LAN, and has menus and buttons in English. I could not get it to work over USB, though, and it's pretty slow to download a screenshot over LAN, about 30 seconds if scope is Stopped and nearly a minute if scope is Running. The "save" saves the shot with correct date and time! The graphics look best if "Original size" button is selected.
 
It's too bad that it's not a "live" display but only a screenshot.
The program also can send the SCPI commands and receive answers, from another menu window.

I had to set the permissions for the executable file to allow "execute" by owner and group.
My OS is Ubuntu 12.04 32-bit, Linux kernel 3.2.0-74-generic-pae, the USB version may work with later Ubuntu versions (14) , haven't tested that yet.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 25, 2015, 03:52:09 am
Does anyone know if there is a button or button combination that can be held during boot-up that will reset a scope to factory defaults? Some such may come in handy some day if a scope should freeze or become unresponsive for some reason, and if it stays stuck after power cycling.

My (replacement) scope is still working fine, I'm just worried about the future, since I've seen some people report occasional freezes or lockups.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on April 25, 2015, 03:22:26 pm
Does anyone know if there is a button or button combination that can be held during boot-up that will reset a scope to factory defaults? Some such may come in handy some day if a scope should freeze or become unresponsive for some reason, and if it stays stuck after power cycling.

My (replacement) scope is still working fine, I'm just worried about the future, since I've seen some people report occasional freezes or lockups.

From the middle of the giant Rigol thread:

I tried the procedure on my MSO1000Z and ended up with a constant beeping noise (as if I'd pressed the button too many times), but no reset. It's possible that I did something incorrectly. I'll give it another shot tonight after work.

It is the 5th gray button on the left (not the bottom gray button).  When you press it during power on it will beep a couple of times until the Rigol screen comes up.  Keep pressing it.  You'll know it worked when you see Chinese!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: g8bnr on April 25, 2015, 04:09:23 pm
Don't just press and hold. Press, release, press again and repeat quickly until the beeping stops. Then you come up in Chinese! That did not reset my options!

Dick G8BNR
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 25, 2015, 04:46:27 pm
Ah, thank you both very much.

I have read the whole thread,  but most of it was months ago when I first started "waiting" for my scope (ordered Feb 9th, not delivered until April) and I thought I remembered some mention of such but couldn't recall just where.

So just to be totally clear.... it is the button indicated in the picture below?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on April 25, 2015, 06:02:54 pm
Hi Folks, Is it possible to send a screen shot, from my DS1054Z, to my computer via the LAN connection? I have no difficulty doing it using a USB Memory Stick, but would like to do it direct! Any ideas, please?
73 Dick G8BNR
I expierience the same with my DS1204B.
Over USB everything works fine, over LAN there exists a spaghetti of programs, libraries, extensions and codes but nothing works.
For the DS2000 , I use   RUU  (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/#msg171575)
IT has both USB and LAN connection but the USB is Faster.
As the Trigger Captured waveforms can be captured at the update rate (50,000/s) , I rely on the DSO to capture and then transfer data to the PC. (using DSO memory)
I use the DSO functions to make sure I have the correct Data, then transfer to the PC for reports, History.
Here are some captures in GiF and 3-D:
I will show more displays in next post.
Once you know it is fast and easy to capture and Post
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on April 25, 2015, 06:26:07 pm
Also a 4-40 MHZ Sweep with 20MHz BW input filter in 3-D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Tainer on May 08, 2015, 05:15:37 pm
Recently I was trying to figure out why one of my RP2200 probes was completely unusable at 1:1 attenuation. The switch seemed to be a bit dicky so I took the plastic bit off and here is what I found.

I don't know whether this was done on purpose or it's just a flash from injection molding, but it seems to prevent the switch from sliding into the '1x' position properly. So I scraped this bit off and sanded the area with a small file, and guess what - my probe is usable at 1:1 once again!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: plazma on May 08, 2015, 05:26:15 pm
Good find. I'll fix my 8 pieces of probes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Tainer on May 08, 2015, 05:33:17 pm
Wow, you have 8 probes with the same issue? I thought I just had a defective probe, since I can't recall this problem being mentioned before.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: plazma on May 09, 2015, 07:48:07 am
3pcs were so loose you had to keep the switch by hand in the 1x position. The fourth was usable but also quite loose. I got four replacement probes and they are about the same.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: korievgenii on May 14, 2015, 02:42:35 pm
hi everyone.a i have been recieved my first new oscilloscope 1054z.  8)
and i have a little problem with the hcking this device.  |O
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol-103d/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol-103d/)
i have inserted the serial and DSFR, after generating i have inserted the generated code. after that - invalid license :-//, after few tries, i have "install avoid for 12 hours :-BROKE :wtf: :palm:"
i'm sure that i dont had mistake like S5 and B8 :-DMM
what is wrong? :wtf:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 14, 2015, 06:09:33 pm
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol-103d/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol-103d/)
i have inserted the serial and DSFR, after generating i have inserted the generated code. after that - invalid license :-//, after few tries, i have "install avoid for 12 hours "
Try re-updating the page a couple of times to see whether you get stable keys. Double and triple-check whether you got the serial number right and entered the key correctly.

Do NOT use the DSFR option, since it includes the 500µV/div (which does not work on the DS1000Z series). Use the DSER option instead. This cannot be the cause for the difficulties you have had; but the fact that you tried this unsuitable option despite the many recommendations to the contrary suggests that you have jumped into this "hacking" rather unprepared.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: korievgenii on May 14, 2015, 07:17:03 pm
Quote
but the fact that you tried this unsuitable option despite the many recommendations to the contrary suggests that you have jumped into this "hacking" rather unprepared.
unfortunately you are right. i was unprepared :scared: |O. on youtube it looked like very easy :phew:. and i dont seen this forum before. |O i guess i need to wait 12 hours and try to insert the code again.  or exist some faster method?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 14, 2015, 08:02:34 pm
i guess i need to wait 12 hours and try to insert the code again.  or exist some faster method?

I'm afraid that there is no shortcut to avoid the 12 hour wait. Please note that this means that the scope must be switched ON for 12 hours. The DS1000Z series does not have a built-in real-time clock; it just counts down time while it is running.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: korievgenii on May 14, 2015, 08:22:48 pm
Quote
that the scope must be switched ON for 12 hours.
at this moment it switched on about 6 hours. if i try to insert the code before is it possible that the clock became to count another one 12 hours?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on May 14, 2015, 10:02:36 pm
Recently I was trying to figure out why one of my RP2200 probes was completely unusable at 1:1 attenuation. The switch seemed to be a bit dicky so I took the plastic bit off and here is what I found.

I don't know whether this was done on purpose or it's just a flash from injection molding, but it seems to prevent the switch from sliding into the '1x' position properly. So I scraped this bit off and sanded the area with a small file, and guess what - my probe is usable at 1:1 once again!

Although it's not causing me any issues, similar flash is present on my probes.

Dear Rigol (and most other 'budget' brands in all fields): Injection moulds are wear items. Service or replace them from time to time. Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on May 14, 2015, 10:10:48 pm
Did you send this message to the customer service department?
Or should Rigol read the recommendation on this forum? =)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on May 14, 2015, 11:32:39 pm
Did you send this message to the customer service department?
Or should Rigol read the recommendation on this forum? =)

I suspect it is more likely to be acted upon if mentioned on the forum. Most customer service departments seem to deal exclusively in corporate platitudes and token gestures, whereas actual engineers may see it here.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitwelder on May 15, 2015, 05:13:00 am
i guess i need to wait 12 hours and try to insert the code again.  or exist some faster method?
Why the hurry? If you *need* the full functionality right now you should be able to get it via the trial licenses that are factory-installed.
Take the 12 hours opportunity to learn more about the DSO ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poorchava on May 15, 2015, 06:11:38 am
I got the 1054Z a few weeks ago and I'm really pleased with it (especially that my previous was Atten ADS1022), but the probes are total shit. They are quite comfortable to handle, but the plastic is too sensitive to temperature. I happen to be doing power supply stuff lately, where a thing or two might get a bit hot (nothing dramatic) and I have already damaged 3 spring hooks. The probes which I got with Atten lasted for 5 years and sustained only minor damage, and those were generic probes that you can buy on ebay ridiculously cheap. The plastic which Rigol probes are made off is really too low-temperature for that kind of application.

I'm now hunting for some TPP0100 probes (or higher bandwidth models). Those are really comfortable and obviously of high quality.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: korievgenii on May 15, 2015, 07:36:46 am
hey everyone). i did it 8). the problem i guess, is the dsfr code |O, with the dser code all was easy. the scope affirmed the code and now i have the 1104z scope))
shit happens) :-BROKE
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jamessawle on May 15, 2015, 12:21:56 pm
Just got a new DS1054Z with Firmware 00.04.02.SP4 and cannot get codes to work, does anyone know if the firmware is back-datable on this model?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on May 15, 2015, 12:40:25 pm
Just got a new DS1054Z with Firmware 00.04.02.SP4 and cannot get codes to work, does anyone know if the firmware is back-datable on this model?

Got a stack of them on my desk, all with 00.04.02.SP4 and they all unlocked first time no problem.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Roeland_R on May 15, 2015, 12:42:01 pm
I did a firmware upgrade on my ds1054z, and codes keep working....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on May 15, 2015, 01:17:18 pm
Just got a new DS1054Z with Firmware 00.04.02.SP4 and cannot get codes to work, does anyone know if the firmware is back-datable on this model?

Mine came with that firmware version and the codes worked fine. Try using the SCPI commands to install the code over USB or Ethernet, and don't forget to remove the hyphens in the code!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jamessawle on May 15, 2015, 01:28:46 pm
Cheers Tooki, That worked fine...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: korievgenii on May 15, 2015, 07:01:06 pm
Quote
Just got a new DS1054Z with Firmware 00.04.02.SP4 and cannot get codes to work, does anyone know if the firmware is back-datable on this model?
hi, like a said before , the problem is DSFR code, with this option the scope does not confirm the code. USE the DSER code for SP4! with this code i did it in first time
Quote
hey everyone). i did it . the problem i guess, is the dsfr code
you was unprepared like me)
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol-103d/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol-103d/)
i have inserted the serial and DSFR, after generating i have inserted the generated code. after that - invalid license :-//, after few tries, i have "install avoid for 12 hours "
Try re-updating the page a couple of times to see whether you get stable keys. Double and triple-check whether you got the serial number right and entered the key correctly.

Do NOT use the DSFR option, since it includes the 500µV/div (which does not work on the DS1000Z series). Use the DSER option instead. This cannot be the cause for the difficulties you have had; but the fact that you tried this unsuitable option despite the many recommendations to the contrary suggests that you have jumped into this "hacking" rather unprepared.

good luck!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on May 15, 2015, 07:11:58 pm
I doubt it's anything to do with DSER vs DSFR. The website is known to produce bad codes sometimes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: peterc on May 17, 2015, 05:43:34 pm
Just bought a new DS1054Z from Batronix in Germany.
In view of the price (plus minus 400 euros tax and sipment included) this device is an absolute gem.
Meanwhile I enabled all options with the hack as described before. It just makes it even better.
It did not work at the first attempt but I simply made a typo.
After correction I had immediately all options enabled.
I can confirm that the code that you need is DSER. This will generate a key to enable all options, except the 500uV, which is useless anyway.
I also have firmware revision 00.04.02.SP4.
For generating the activation key I used http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/. (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/.)

Cheers,
Peter
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NovaBlood on May 17, 2015, 11:22:08 pm
Just bought a new DS1054Z from Batronix in Germany.
In view of the price (plus minus 400 euros tax and sipment included) this device is an absolute gem.
Meanwhile I enabled all options with the hack as described before. It just makes it even better.
It did not work at the first attempt but I simply made a typo.
After correction I had immediately all options enabled.
I can confirm that the code that you need is DSER. This will generate a key to enable all options, except the 500uV, which is useless anyway.
I also have firmware revision 00.04.02.SP4.
For generating the activation key I used http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/. (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/.)

Cheers,
Peter

Same story as yours. Batronix, Germany etc. Got my Rigol on the 17th of May. And unlocked it using http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/.) . Didn't know about any issues regarding the unlocking of all the features so I just used the DSFR key to unlock it. Worked fine. Firmware is on version 00.04.02.SP4.

Have fun.

Phil
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: peterc on May 18, 2015, 01:55:36 pm
To be honest, if a ds2000 4 channel would have existed, I would probably have bought that.
I know that here is a Siglent 4 channel 2Gsas type slightly above the DS2000 price range and there is even a promotion on Siglent w. Batronix, but I am simply not a Siglent fan I guess.
I contacted Rigol Europe with the question if RIgol will ever bring aDS2000 4 channel (or similar) to the market, but they could not tell. Instead they tried to push me towards the 1000B series, which I considered not to be a good investment being it a somewhat older technology w. a too small screen.
So I settled for the DS1054z  and enabled all options. I do not have a 2Gsas device, nor a 200 MHz BW, but what I all have for my 400 Euros is just amazing.

Maybe by the time that I really need the 2Gsas or higher BW, Rigol has launched a DS2000 4 Channel or similar and I might consider to buy that. Until that time comes, and for the work that I am currently doing, I am more than happy with my DS1054Z which is actually now a DS1104Z full option. :)

Cheers,
Peter

 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on May 18, 2015, 07:11:40 pm
Just got my DS1054Z , and found this little GEM

Pure Python, no VISA or other stuff.


Python screendump for windows via LXI (TCP/IP)
https://hackaday.io/project/5807-driverless-rigol-ds1054z-screen-capture-over-lan

I had to change a few lines for it to work under my Linux Mint 17

Thanx to the author

/Bingo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on May 18, 2015, 10:11:50 pm
Nice find bingo,

just answering so I can remember to get it once I get home!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on May 19, 2015, 01:59:29 am
Bummer, I thought like everything else what works for the DS1000z series would work for the DS2000 one, but even after modifying the code I can't establish a telnet connection on port 5555 :(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on May 19, 2015, 06:21:41 am
So since there is no telnet on the DS2000 series I searched around and found vxi11 by a fellow forum member alex.forencich and I modified the script to use that instead.

Do not jump with joy yet because the DS2000 series seems to be transferring data at 56Kbps via the Ethernet port (the old Kbps as in 1024 bps). Since the DS2000 only saves as a BMP 800x480x3 plus the BMP header 1152067 bytes, the total transfer size is 9216536 bits.
Divided by 57344 bps is equal to ~161 seconds.

So it takes 2 minutes and 41 seconds to transfer the screen. No wonder others using USB have faster transfer times. Haven't found a way to speed the Ethernet port or change it to png or jpeg (other than converting the screenshot later on to png or jpeg)

Code: [Select]
__author__ = 'RoGeorge'
#
# Modified to work with DS2000 by miguelvp
# using vxi11 by Alex Forencich and Michael Walle
# [url]https://github.com/alexforencich/python-vxi11[/url]
#
import vxi11
import time
import sys
import os

# Update the next lines for your own default settings:
path_to_save = ""
IP_DS2000 = "192.168.1.6"

expected_len = 1152067
TMC_header_len = 11
terminator_len = 2

company = 0
model = 1
serial = 2

# Check parameters
script_name = os.path.basename(sys.argv[0])

# Print usage
print
print "Usage:"
print "    " + script_name
print
print "This program capture the image displayed"
print "    by a Rigol DS2000 series oscilloscope, then save it on the computer"
print "    as a BMP file with a timestamp in the file name."
print
print "    The program is using LXI protocol, so the computer"
print "    must have LAN connection with the oscilloscope."
print "    USB and/or GPIB connections are not used by this software."
print
print "    No VISA, IVI or Rigol drivers are needed."
print

# Create/check if 'path' exists


# Check network response (ping)
response = os.system("ping -n 1 " + IP_DS2000 + " > nul")
if response != 0:
print
print "No response pinging " + IP_DS2000
print "Check network cables and settings."
print "You should be able to ping the oscilloscope."
# Open a modified VXI11 session
instr =  vxi11.Instrument(IP_DS2000)
instrument_id = instr.ask("*IDN?")

# Check if instrument is set to accept LAN commands
if instrument_id == "command error":
print instrument_id
print "Check the oscilloscope settings."
print "Utility -> IO Setting -> RemoteIO -> LAN must be ON"
sys.exit("ERROR")

# Check if instrument is indeed a Rigol DS2000 series
id_fields = instrument_id.split(",")
if (id_fields[company] != "RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES") or \
(id_fields[model][:3] != "DS2"):
print
print "ERROR: No Rigol from series DS2000 found at ", IP_DS2000
sys.exit("ERROR")

print "Instrument ID:"
print instrument_id

# Prepare filename as C:\MODEL_YYYY-MM-DD_HH.MM.SS
timestamp = time.strftime("%Y-%m-%d_%H.%M.%S", time.localtime())
filename = path_to_save + id_fields[model] + "_" + timestamp

# Ask for an oscilloscope display print screen
print "Receiving..."
buff = instr.ask_raw("display:data?", expected_len)
print "Processing..."
# Strip TMC Blockheader and terminator bytes
buff = buff[TMC_header_len:-terminator_len]

# Save as BMP
scr_file = open(filename + ".bmp", "wb")
scr_file.write(buff)
scr_file.close()
print "Saved file:", filename + ".bmp"

instr.close()

Here is the screenshot after I used paintshop pro to convert it from the huge bmp to just an 18KB png picture.

@bingo, how fast is the screen capture on the DS1000z scope? I would think that because it supports png it's probably about 5.5 seconds to transfer a 37KB file already in png format but still transferring data at a mere 57344 bps

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=152795;image)
Edit: yeah, I had the ratio set to just 1X not sure why, so that's really 3Vpp.

Apologies for the slight OT, but curious if the Ethernet speed is the same via telnet as it's with LXI
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vettelover on May 19, 2015, 08:09:44 am
Good evening.

After reviewing the DS1054Z, i have finally obtained the dollars to purchase one from Emona.
Would anyone be able to supply me a coupon code for Emona's website.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jeroen3 on May 19, 2015, 09:07:51 am
Why do scopes or measurement equipment with USB and Ethernet not serve FTP or webdav to access the data on the usb thumbdrive?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: aargee on May 19, 2015, 12:32:56 pm
Emona don't do coupons. They are friendly and give good service, though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on May 19, 2015, 03:13:54 pm

@bingo, how fast is the screen capture on the DS1000z scope? I would think that because it supports png it's probably about 5.5 seconds to transfer a 37KB file already in png format but still transferring data at a mere 57344 bps


My watch says around 18 Sec , so it's not fast.

I think i read elsewhere that Lan was 12 Sec , and USB just 4 Sec.


Btw: I'm not sure if the scope sends PNG , i think the

Code: [Select]
# Save as PNG
im = Image.open(StringIO.StringIO(buff))
im.save(filename + ".png", "PNG")
print "Saved file:", filename + ".pn

Might convert from BMP to PNG

/Bingo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on May 19, 2015, 03:27:53 pm
I just did a capture in Putty , and displayed with Bless (Linux Hexeditor)

My capture is 1.2MB in size , and has a BMP Header

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=152829)
So it seems the DS1054Z also sends bitmaps , and the Py program is converting to .png

/Bingo

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on May 19, 2015, 03:44:32 pm
@miguelvp
Did you modify Alec's VXI11 in order to run the program ?

I might give it a shot , but miss a "short stepguide" in order to install it (vxi11) , and the other ones he has.

/Bingo

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on May 19, 2015, 03:49:46 pm
@miguelvp
Did you modify Alec's VXI11 in order to run the program ?

I might give it a shot , but miss a "short stepguide" in order to install it (vxi11) , and the other ones he has.

/Bingo

No modification, I guess I modified the comment and forgot to take out the modified part.

As for installing, in the readme in:
https://github.com/alexforencich/python-vxi11

the installation is:
python setup.py install

Edit:
Also I did modify the ping to have a timeout other than the default one with -w 20 for 20 milliseconds for the ping.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on May 19, 2015, 04:43:20 pm
New firmware version for the DS1054Z ??


The link here points to DS1ZUpdate_00.04.02.04.07.ZIP
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

But inside that zip there's a directory named : DS1000ZUpdate_00.04.03.00.01

The Germans have tried it  (or at least one)
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/360631#4127635 (https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/360631#4127635)

Strange that Rigol forgot to update the html page, with the new version inside the ZIP.

I hope that ISO9000 sometime will require that releasenotes should be embedded in the zip archive.
Maybe that would get Rigol to make them.


/Bingo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on May 20, 2015, 06:08:29 am
Hi,

Rigol DS1054Z
SW. 00.04.02 SP4
HW 0.1.1
With all updates incl. 5mV option.

Updated with the firmware link over my post. Auto-Calibration with the cold scope.

5mV option still not usable. Hardware version was 0.2.2 after reboot and cal. The bugs must be resoldered my board.  ;)
After a few restarts it's back to HW. 0.1.1 now. (the bugs seems still soldering.)
Checked maybe 5min. and I see no differents. More later, have to work.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on May 20, 2015, 07:41:03 am
@miguelvp
Did you modify Alec's VXI11 in order to run the program ?

I might give it a shot , but miss a "short stepguide" in order to install it (vxi11) , and the other ones he has.

/Bingo

I got 4 seconds transfers via VXI-11, way faster than even a thumb drive attached to the scope.

I'm following this subtopic here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/python-based-instrument-control/msg676772/#msg676772 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/python-based-instrument-control/msg676772/#msg676772)

This probably applies to other rigol tools as well that are slower on ethernet than using usb, like Marmad's RUU
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: timofonic on May 20, 2015, 12:38:27 pm
@miguelvp
Did you modify Alec's VXI11 in order to run the program ?

I might give it a shot , but miss a "short stepguide" in order to install it (vxi11) , and the other ones he has.

/Bingo

I got 4 seconds transfers via VXI-11, way faster than even a thumb drive attached to the scope.

I'm following this subtopic here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/python-based-instrument-control/msg676772/#msg676772 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/python-based-instrument-control/msg676772/#msg676772)

This probably applies to other rigol tools as well that are slower on ethernet than using usb, like Marmad's RUU
I'm a total layman. Maybe the ethernet controller is connected by USB and causes a bottleneck?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on May 20, 2015, 08:55:36 pm


I got 4 seconds transfers via VXI-11, way faster than even a thumb drive attached to the scope.


Great find  :-+ :-+ (debugging)

Now i'll have to install VXI-11 , also because i know Alex might have improved the linux-gpib support

/Bingo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope - discount code needed
Post by: DarrylP796 on May 23, 2015, 02:16:57 am
Can someone PM me the Tequipment.net discount code.  I need a new 'scope!

Thank you.

Darryl
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope - discount code needed
Post by: nanofrog on May 23, 2015, 07:16:27 pm
Can someone PM me the Tequipment.net discount code.  I need a new 'scope!

Thank you.

Darryl
PM sent.

BTW, wrong thread.  :o  :box:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Vostro on May 25, 2015, 03:12:58 pm
Recently I was trying to figure out why one of my RP2200 probes was completely unusable at 1:1 attenuation. The switch seemed to be a bit dicky so I took the plastic bit off and here is what I found.

I don't know whether this was done on purpose or it's just a flash from injection molding, but it seems to prevent the switch from sliding into the '1x' position properly. So I scraped this bit off and sanded the area with a small file, and guess what - my probe is usable at 1:1 once again!

Thanks for the tip, All 4 of my probes were 'jumpy' on the x1 setting but no problem on the 10x setting

I took the yellow selector knob off and cut away that bit of plastic.

Great news is that all 4 probes are perfectly stable at 1x setting now, much happier.

Regards
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on May 27, 2015, 04:26:06 pm
I have just RMA'ed my DS1054Z at Batronix  :(
I have had it just a week.

It locks up after a few hours turn on time , and all buttons are dead.
Sometimes it locks up showing the captured waveform , and sometimes it crashes and shows garbage on the screen, like the attached picture.

Will let you know how it goes   :'( :'( :'(

/Bingo

Followup here  :-\
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/batronix-a-mixed-ds1054z-rma-experience/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/batronix-a-mixed-ds1054z-rma-experience/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Dave Turner on May 27, 2015, 06:13:45 pm
I wonder whether the continuing reports of dodgy probes is a result of success! I bought my 1074-S nearly 2 years ago and have encountered no problems with my probes (so far).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kenw232 on May 29, 2015, 04:06:59 am
I don't want to read 500 posts.  Is the jitter problem, as well as any other bugs, fixed now for the DS1054Z?  Will I have to upgrade the firmware if its fixed, or will it come fixed?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Solder_Junkie on May 29, 2015, 07:10:34 am
A friend received his 1054Z last week and it came with the latest firmware (4.02?) and that fixes the jitter problem.
I don't know about fixes for anything else, it was also still "hackable" if that matters to you.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 29, 2015, 08:55:12 am
I don't want to read 500 posts.  Is the jitter problem, as well as any other bugs, fixed now for the DS1054Z?  Will I have to upgrade the firmware if its fixed, or will it come fixed?
It should be sufficient to read the first post of this thread, where rolycat is maintaining a short FAQ section which answers this and other questions.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Dave Turner on May 29, 2015, 07:46:48 pm
kenw32 - that's partly why the thread is so long - OOPS  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on May 29, 2015, 11:11:47 pm
A friend received his 1054Z last week and it came with the latest firmware (4.02?) and that fixes the jitter problem.
I don't know about fixes for anything else, it was also still "hackable" if that matters to you.

Rigol posted new firmware at  http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)  with the fix for the jitter problem.

The zip filename shows version 00.04.02.04.07 but inside the directory name shows version 00.04.03.00.01.
I've been running the 04.02.SP4 version that I downloaded from the link above when it was first posted with no problems.  I have not tried the 04.03.00 version yet.  I saw a few posts else where that said version 04.03 works okay.  I'd like to hear what new changes that have been made in the new version if anyone finds out.

I wonder if Rigol has refined the PLL coefficients more?  I don't have the means to measure the PLL clock though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JimmyK on May 29, 2015, 11:33:07 pm
I upgraded to 4.03 today and it kept all my hacked installed options.  Not sure if I was supposed to uninstall them first or not.  It kept 500uv which I should get rid of.  Not sure if I can reinstall another hacked options minus the 500uv over the top of what I already have or not...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on May 30, 2015, 01:10:38 am
JimmyK

You need to uninstall all options to remove the 500uV option by using the SCPI command :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall, then reboot the oscilloscope.  The SCPI command must be sent via the USB or LAN port.

Then reinstall your desired options (use DSER for all options except 500uV option).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on June 01, 2015, 07:40:50 am
I received my DS1054Z recently and I am very pleased with it. I have updated it to the latest F/W 04.03 with no problems but as I am new to the scope any changes to performance are not apparent.  It still works!  A problem I do have is using Ultra Sigma on Windows 7 64bit.  The s/w boots OK and recognizes the DS1054Z, via either USB or LAN, but does not react to SCPI commands except the IDN? which works OK.  Trying the :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall command it fails with a timeout response 'insuffient time to complete'.  Extending the 'timeout' in advanced mode doesn't  help.  The Ultra Sigma s/w supplied refers to Version 2 on the CD but this is older than the downloadable s/w version on the Rigol website. I have tried both versions but neither works correctly. Does anyone know of a solution for this problem?

Thanks John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on June 01, 2015, 09:14:51 am
If you decide you want to write some code, my DS1074Z responds to TCP ports 5555 and 5566.  You should be able to telnet on those ports also.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on June 01, 2015, 09:18:48 am
If you decide you want to write some code, my DS1074Z responds to TCP ports 5555 and 5566.  You should be able to telnet on those ports also.

https://hackaday.io/project/5807-driverless-rigol-ds1054z-screen-capture-over-lan (https://hackaday.io/project/5807-driverless-rigol-ds1054z-screen-capture-over-lan)

From this this same thread (reply #1426):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg675845/#msg675845 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg675845/#msg675845)

I modified it using alex.forencich's vxi11 to work on my non telnet able DS2000:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/python-based-instrument-control/msg676772/#msg676772 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/python-based-instrument-control/msg676772/#msg676772)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LaurentR on June 04, 2015, 06:08:59 am
Anyone has lost USB connectivity upgrading to 04.03? Something weird going on here. Device is seen in Windows with proper IVI driver loaded, but not detected.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LaurentR on June 04, 2015, 03:44:11 pm
Anyone has lost USB connectivity upgrading to 04.03? Something weird going on here. Device is seen in Windows with proper IVI driver loaded, but not detected.

Only happens with the Keysight I/O Libraries installed. Works fine with NI-Visa only. Doesn't work with I/O Libraries also installed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kenw232 on June 05, 2015, 09:59:41 pm
I just got one of these.  I did the auto-calibrate.  When my probe is not hooked up to anything it still reads 160mV.  Should I do a manual calibration or is this normal for all scopes?? 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 05, 2015, 10:07:32 pm
I just got one of these.  I did the auto-calibrate.  When my probe is not hooked up to anything it still reads 160mV.  Should I do a manual calibration or is this normal for all scopes??

That's pretty normal for this scope, and users have found that the slight residual offset can vary, depending on how many channels you have turned on. Did you let the scope warm up for at least half an hour before running the calibration? Also, you may need to recalibrate if the ambient temperature changes much (according to the user's manual.)  You might try clipping the probe's ground lead to the probe tip and re-doing the measurement, you might be picking up noise that is causing the measurement reading.

How would you do a "manual calibration?"

Also, what's your firmware version number? Have you checked to see if you have the "freeze" or lockup bug yet?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kenw232 on June 06, 2015, 03:36:01 am
Thanks.  I thing I have the freeze bug.  I was using it and it become unresponsive.  I dismissed it but I guess its an issue.  I'm running the latest 4.03 firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kenw232 on June 06, 2015, 03:42:13 am
I'm new.  What does anti-aliasing do under the Acquire menu?    Why can't I turn off SIN(x)x, it's ON and greyed out.  My coupling is set to DC if it matters.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bingo600 on June 06, 2015, 08:41:55 am
I have just RMA'ed my DS1054Z at Batronix  :(
I have had it just a week.

It locks up after a few hours turn on time , and all buttons are dead.
Sometimes it locks up showing the captured waveform , and sometimes it crashes and shows garbage on the screen, like the attached picture.

Will let you know how it goes   :'( :'( :'(

/Bingo

Followup here  :-\
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/batronix-a-mixed-ds1054z-rma-experience/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/batronix-a-mixed-ds1054z-rma-experience/)

/Bingo
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on June 06, 2015, 09:13:56 am
I'm new.  What does anti-aliasing do under the Acquire menu?
There is a separate thread concerning anti-aliasing filters in oscilloscopes here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/what-type-of-antialiasing-filter-is-used-in-a-digital-scope/msg387414/#msg387414).

There is also some discussion of anti-aliasing on the DS1054Z in this thread starting here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg528172/#msg528172).

Quote

Why can't I turn off SIN(x)x, it's ON and greyed out.  My coupling is set to DC if it matters.
This is also discussed in this thread, beginning around here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg519868/#msg519868).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ekeppel on June 09, 2015, 12:51:19 am
Looks like I posted in the wrong thread...Just found the discount code thread and will post there.  Thanks :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mjlinden on June 09, 2015, 01:07:04 am
  Just placed my order for one of these today. However, I was wondering about the affects of the 100 MHz upgrade on the warranty when I ran across this bit of information:

http://ds1054z.com/ (http://ds1054z.com/)

All of the above modules and more can be activated for "free". If you search for "Riglol" on the internet, you will find a method to enable the modules for free. Besides the modules, you can also increase the bandwidth of the Rigol DS1054Z to 100Mhz. And you can increase the vertical sensitivity to 500 µV/div!

However, using this method will void your warranty. Also, the method is irreversible, so if your scope breaks down, you can not revert to its original state to claim warranty. Therfore the "Riglol" method should not be used!

 
  While this Web page looked like a "genuine" Rigol Web page, its domain is actually registered to ELESHOP.NL, so not much use, I guess...   ;^)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on June 09, 2015, 02:41:35 am
All of the above modules and more can be activated for "free". If you search for "Riglol" on the internet, you will find a method to enable the modules for free. Besides the modules, you can also increase the bandwidth of the Rigol DS1054Z to 100Mhz. And you can increase the vertical sensitivity to 500 µV/div!

The hardware does NOT support the 500 uV/div upgrade.  DO NOT INSTALL 500 uV/div.
Use code DSER for all upgrades except 500 uV/div
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TomThomas on June 09, 2015, 09:04:03 am
  Just placed my order for one of these today. However, I was wondering about the affects of the 100 MHz upgrade on the warranty when I ran across this bit of information:

http://ds1054z.com/ (http://ds1054z.com/)

All of the above modules and more can be activated for "free". If you search for "Riglol" on the internet, you will find a method to enable the modules for free. Besides the modules, you can also increase the bandwidth of the Rigol DS1054Z to 100Mhz. And you can increase the vertical sensitivity to 500 µV/div!

However, using this method will void your warranty. Also, the method is irreversible, so if your scope breaks down, you can not revert to its original state to claim warranty. Therfore the "Riglol" method should not be used!

 
  While this Web page looked like a "genuine" Rigol Web page, its domain is actually registered to ELESHOP.NL, so not much use, I guess...   ;^)

Be careful... as far as I know Eleshop is no official Rigol Reseller. At least I could not find him on the Distributor List on Rigol.eu.
Better choose an official one who offers the same Price and can guarantee first Level Support.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pa3bca on June 09, 2015, 09:13:24 am
Be careful... as far as I know Eleshop is no official Rigol Reseller. At least I could not find him on the Distributor List on Rigol.eu.
Better choose an official one who offers the same Price and can guarantee first Level Support.
Yes, and although I do not know of any negative experiences with eleshop.nl, I would strongly advise to buy your Rigol stuff at arbenelux.nl (If you live in the Netherlands). They are an official Rigol reseller and their service is absolutely excellent.
And I know from experience with a partially broken DS2072 two months after purchase. Replaced within one day with a brand new one, and a ‘restarted’ 3 year warranty!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 09, 2015, 11:27:38 am
  ... I ran across this bit of information:

http://ds1054z.com/ (http://ds1054z.com/)

All of the above modules and more can be activated for "free". If you search for "Riglol" on the internet, you will find a method to enable the modules for free. Besides the modules, you can also increase the bandwidth of the Rigol DS1054Z to 100Mhz. And you can increase the vertical sensitivity to 500 µV/div!

However, using this method will void your warranty. Also, the method is irreversible, so if your scope breaks down, you can not revert to its original state to claim warranty. Therfore the "Riglol" method should not be used!

 
While this Web page looked like a "genuine" Rigol Web page, its domain is actually registered to ELESHOP.NL, so not much use, I guess...   ;^)

Two statements, two pieces of mis-information on that web page. The 500µV/div option is not compatible with the DS1000Z scopes, as already mentioned by others. And the activated options are reversible, via an SCPI command, as discussed multiple times in this thread.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on June 09, 2015, 03:08:10 pm
  ... I ran across this bit of information:

http://ds1054z.com/ (http://ds1054z.com/)

All of the above modules and more can be activated for "free". If you search for "Riglol" on the internet, you will find a method to enable the modules for free. Besides the modules, you can also increase the bandwidth of the Rigol DS1054Z to 100Mhz. And you can increase the vertical sensitivity to 500 µV/div!

However, using this method will void your warranty. Also, the method is irreversible, so if your scope breaks down, you can not revert to its original state to claim warranty. Therfore the "Riglol" method should not be used!

 
While this Web page looked like a "genuine" Rigol Web page, its domain is actually registered to ELESHOP.NL, so not much use, I guess...   ;^)

Two statements, two pieces of mis-information on that web page. The 500µV/div option is not compatible with the DS1000Z scopes, as already mentioned by others. And the activated options are reversible, via an SCPI command, as discussed multiple times in this thread.

Three pieces of mis-information  :)   In most places, hacking options will not void your warranty.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on June 09, 2015, 03:19:09 pm
I don't see any mention of the 500 µV/div nor of hacking the scope on that link, did they changed it since this was posted?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on June 09, 2015, 03:55:04 pm
Yep, they 'corrected' it  ;)
You can still find original page in google cache:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fds1054z.com%2F&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Attached is a screenshoot of the changed section for posterity :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mjlinden on June 09, 2015, 07:10:10 pm
  One could interpret this change in the Web page as concern that fewer people will buy the scope if they think that "upgrading" it to 100 MHz will void the warranty...   :P
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MAS3 on June 09, 2015, 10:47:46 pm
That shop is where i got mine.
The price was better than that of the before mentioned official distributor, and they do sell a lot of these.
The shipping and tracking of it is a bit of a mess (you can start tracking long after delivery).
But that's caused because they ship using their neighbour, a large ("worldwide") shipping company that only has 3 small distribution centres in the Netherlands so they have to use another much larger and therefore better organised shipping company to handle the package.
That's the worst i can say about the experience of ordering and receiving the 'scope.

However, a site that is owned by such shops do cause my rise eyebrows to rise and would be an extra threshold before ordering, if i would see that site before ordering that is.
 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jeroen3 on June 10, 2015, 05:35:56 am
Since the scope has ethernet, they can with a newer firmware upgrade get a phone-home system installed to void your illegally installed modules.
And since there are plenty bugs, there will be plenty new firmware versions.
Title: New 04.03 firmware - actually any faster?
Post by: LogAmp90 on June 10, 2015, 01:20:10 pm
I just got my DS1054Z so I'm running through all my initial shake-down tests.  Works great so far.  I use a MUCH more expensive Agilent MSX-X-3014A at work.  It's amusing just how close the Rigol is in operation.  It's obvious that the firmware is rather "related" even in this higher-end Agilent.   :)  I actually like the Rigol interface better because of the plethora of soft keys where the Agilent has only 6.  Yeah, the Agilent operates a bit faster/smoother but for the price difference I'll take the Rigol.

It is running 04.02.SP4 which I believe still has the jitter/PLL issue.  I will be upgrading to 04.03 tonight.

I was looking at the Rigol firmware release notes and noticed that it says "and optimized processing speed".  Of course, as with the rest of the document, the English is rough.  Maybe this doesn't mean what I think it should.

Has anybody noticed their 1054Z being more responsive in any way after this update?

Thanks,

Scott
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on June 10, 2015, 02:09:36 pm
I may be wrong, but I don't think that 04.02 SP4 still has the jitter issue.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 10, 2015, 02:19:47 pm
Since the scope has ethernet, they can with a newer firmware upgrade get a phone-home system installed to void your illegally installed modules.

That is if you assume that Rigol has kept a central registry of all upgrade keys they have officially generated and sold since the release of the DS1000Z series. The scope or the keys themselves look the same, whether keys were generated by Rigol (or a distributor) or "Riglol".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LogAmp90 on June 10, 2015, 02:35:48 pm
I may be wrong, but I don't think that 04.02 SP4 still has the jitter issue.

McBryce.


Well in the firmware doc, the 00.04.02.04.07, which I believe shows as 04.02.SP4 on the scope,
is dated December 31, 2014.  I don't think the jitter fix was available then was it?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on June 10, 2015, 03:00:43 pm
Well in the firmware doc, the 00.04.02.04.07, which I believe shows as 04.02.SP4 on the scope,
is dated December 31, 2014.  I don't think the jitter fix was available then was it?

That is the release with the jitter fix.  No one knows what they changed in 04.03 (apparently nothing big).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LogAmp90 on June 10, 2015, 03:21:36 pm
Well in the firmware doc, the 00.04.02.04.07, which I believe shows as 04.02.SP4 on the scope,
is dated December 31, 2014.  I don't think the jitter fix was available then was it?

That is the release with the jitter fix.  No one knows what they changed in 04.03 (apparently nothing big).

Actually there is quite a list of bug fixes for 04.03.  Do you have the firmware history doc from Rigol?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on June 10, 2015, 03:53:30 pm
Well in the firmware doc, the 00.04.02.04.07, which I believe shows as 04.02.SP4 on the scope,
is dated December 31, 2014.  I don't think the jitter fix was available then was it?

That is the release with the jitter fix.  No one knows what they changed in 04.03 (apparently nothing big).

Actually there is quite a list of bug fixes for 04.03.  Do you have the firmware history doc from Rigol?

Oops, obviously not.  Where is it?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LogAmp90 on June 10, 2015, 04:05:40 pm
Oops, obviously not.  Where is it?

I PM'd you the link.  Don't know if Rigol would get cranky about posting it on the forum.

Note, there are two changes and 10 additional bug fixes in 04.03.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 10, 2015, 05:32:33 pm
I'd like to see that official list of changes myself.

I have identified two: in the 04.02 firmware, when your Trial Options have expired, there was a typo on the Options Installed screen, where "trial" was misspelled "trail"... this has been fixed in 04.03. Also, the Hardware Frequency Counter in 04.02 would revert to "<15Hz" when the scope was Stopped --- stopping the scope makes screensaves to USB much faster--- and now in 04.03 the HFC keeps the last value displayed when the scope is Stopped.
 
These are the only two changes I have noticed in my own usage of the scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LogAmp90 on June 11, 2015, 12:42:15 am
Well I upgraded to 04.03.  No performance difference that I can see.  Then again I only had a few hours into 04.02.SP4.

At least I didn't brick it.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Helix70 on June 11, 2015, 01:18:54 am
Oops, obviously not.  Where is it?

I PM'd you the link.  Don't know if Rigol would get cranky about posting it on the forum.

Note, there are two changes and 10 additional bug fixes in 04.03.

Can you send that to me too? Many thanks.

Also, the 500uV/div option, does it hurt the scope if installed? Does it hurt the scope if used? Or just not useful due to the hardware limits/offset?

Josh
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on June 11, 2015, 04:40:02 am
Oops, obviously not.  Where is it?

I PM'd you the link.  Don't know if Rigol would get cranky about posting it on the forum.

Note, there are two changes and 10 additional bug fixes in 04.03.

Can you send that to me too? Many thanks.

Also, the 500uV/div option, does it hurt the scope if installed? Does it hurt the scope if used? Or just not useful due to the hardware limits/offset?

Josh

I think that we'd all like to know the bug fixes in 4.03.  Can you PM them to me too?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Stupid Beard on June 11, 2015, 05:06:30 am
I think that we'd all like to know the bug fixes in 4.03.  Can you PM them to me too?

If you already requested the firmware update, the same link that they mailed you for the release notes works for the updated release notes. It did for me, at least.

But here's a copy/paste of the list of changes:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on June 11, 2015, 08:10:19 am
Is 04.03 also available for the MSO1104 too? And does 04.03 have any effect on "liberated options" ?

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on June 11, 2015, 02:43:35 pm
I think that we'd all like to know the bug fixes in 4.03.  Can you PM them to me too?

If you already requested the firmware update, the same link that they mailed you for the release notes works for the updated release notes. It did for me, at least.

But here's a copy/paste of the list of changes:

Thank you for that!  It looks like they fixed mostly things not on the list I've been maintaining here:    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on June 11, 2015, 04:41:46 pm
Does Rigol still require the contact method to download firmware or do they have a direct link?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on June 11, 2015, 06:25:22 pm
Does Rigol still require the contact method to download firmware or do they have a direct link?

This page currently provides a link to the 4.03 update (even though it says 4.02): http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on June 11, 2015, 06:30:35 pm
Does Rigol still require the contact method to download firmware or do they have a direct link?

This page currently provides a link to the 4.03 update (even though it says 4.02): http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

Thanks

For future reference: the summary at the start of this thread does provide this information.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dylbob42 on June 17, 2015, 07:48:37 am
Hi all

I've been tinkering with retro consoles for just under a year and its got to the point where im in need of a scope plus i just want to understand better what im doing rather than just follow instructions.

 i was about to buy a DS1052E until i came across the DS1054Z. It looked like a lot better choice for a little more money but it seems to have its issues and being my first scope i wouldn't have the experience to troubleshoot issues . My rational was that i would future proof myself a bit with the DS1054Z as i got more experienced.

I got a reply email from a Rigol tech saying that the 00.04.03 firmware resolved the issues, but he would wouldn't he..

so what should i do? should i just stay away from the DS1054Z get a old faithful DS1052E?  They are cheapish and i am just getting into this side of things.   

cheers
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: John Coloccia on June 17, 2015, 07:58:58 am
It's got some quirks and bugs, but I would buy it again and recommend it.  Like I've said in the delayed sweep lockup thread, I've seen far worse bugs in far more expensive equipment.  You'll have a much harder time of things without the intensity graded display, especially as a beginner.  Sticking that in a tiny, sub $400 scope was the last nail in the coffin for my old analog scope...and good riddance.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on June 17, 2015, 08:51:35 am
Hi all

I've been tinkering with retro consoles for just under a year and its got to the point where im in need of a scope plus i just want to understand better what im doing rather than just follow instructions.

 i was about to buy a DS1052E until i came across the DS1054Z. It looked like a lot better choice for a little more money but it seems to have its issues and being my first scope i wouldn't have the experience to troubleshoot issues . My rational was that i would future proof myself a bit with the DS1054Z as i got more experienced.

I got a reply email from a Rigol tech saying that the 00.04.03 firmware resolved the issues, but he would wouldn't he..

so what should i do? should i just stay away from the DS1054Z get a old faithful DS1052E?  They are cheapish and i am just getting into this side of things.   

cheers

What type of Retro consoles are you tinkering with? Depending on what they are, you might be better off going one higher and getting one with a Logic Analyser? I repair 8-Bit computers (Late 70's to early 90's) and an LA is well worth having.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dylbob42 on June 17, 2015, 09:56:23 am
Hi all

I've been tinkering with retro consoles for just under a year and its got to the point where im in need of a scope plus i just want to understand better what im doing rather than just follow instructions.

 i was about to buy a DS1052E until i came across the DS1054Z. It looked like a lot better choice for a little more money but it seems to have its issues and being my first scope i wouldn't have the experience to troubleshoot issues . My rational was that i would future proof myself a bit with the DS1054Z as i got more experienced.

I got a reply email from a Rigol tech saying that the 00.04.03 firmware resolved the issues, but he would wouldn't he..

so what should i do? should i just stay away from the DS1054Z get a old faithful DS1052E?  They are cheapish and i am just getting into this side of things.   

cheers

What type of Retro consoles are you tinkering with? Depending on what they are, you might be better off going one higher and getting one with a Logic Analyser? I repair 8-Bit computers (Late 70's to early 90's) and an LA is well worth having.

McBryce.

game consoles,NES, SNES, still got to crack open that N64 and work out how to get RGB out of a turbo express. you know, the usual RGB mods. Got a C64 waiting in the wings but its the sega CDX that has got me stumped. i have replace the laser on a few but i came across one that needs calibration. i looked for the service manual and it turns out i will need a scope for the job, also its a excuse to get a scope and acquire some more skills down the electronics path.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mauroh on June 17, 2015, 10:21:19 am
I repair 8-Bit computers (Late 70's to early 90's) and an LA is well worth having.
McBryce.

I spent the last weekend fighting with an Olivetti M10 (Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 clone) with my DS1104z and a Saleae 8...
I'm quite happy with the instrument setup but totally lost on how to debug my old friend.
May I contact you in private for a quick chat?

Going back on topic, i think there is no comparison between the DS1000z and the DS1052E.
With the DS1000z you get so many features, software options (for free), memory, channels (double :)), bandwidth (double for free) ....
You can have a really specific need for the old DS1052E but generally speaking i can't see it.
All the rumors with some bugs are just because there is a lot o interest in this scope, so many people bought it and all possible small bug have a huge visibility even though most of this bugs are really nuances and Rigol is constantly releasing improvements.

Mauro
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dylbob42 on June 17, 2015, 11:24:56 am
So the bugs everyone is talking about aren't major or crippling?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on June 17, 2015, 11:34:31 am
So the bugs everyone is talking about aren't major or crippling?
Correct.

Quote
im just this guy ,ya know?
Nein, Zaphod's just zis guy, you know?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on June 17, 2015, 11:43:47 am
game consoles,NES, SNES, still got to crack open that N64 and work out how to get RGB out of a turbo express. you know, the usual RGB mods. Got a C64 waiting in the wings but its the sega CDX that has got me stumped. i have replace the laser on a few but i came across one that needs calibration. i looked for the service manual and it turns out i will need a scope for the job, also its a excuse to get a scope and acquire some more skills down the electronics path.

Then you should definitely consider looking at either a scope with LA or a seperate LA for debugging.

Bryce.

@Marouh: Go for it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dylbob42 on June 17, 2015, 12:56:18 pm
thanks for the reply's
 i was a bit on the fence about the bugs. wasn't sure if it was the glitchy brick people were making it out to be.  ill have to start hunting down a supplier. Ive seen it mentioned that there is some sort of discount for EEVblog members, is that true? could i get some details if anyone knows.

ill look into getting a LA too

cheers all  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on June 17, 2015, 01:11:08 pm
thanks for the reply's
 i was a bit on the fence about the bugs. wasn't sure if it was the glitchy brick people were making it out to be.  ill have to start hunting down a supplier. Ive seen it mentioned that there is some sort of discount for EEVblog members, is that true? could i get some details if anyone knows.

ill look into getting a LA too

cheers all  :-+
There's a discount from TEquipment.net (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/), which is located in the US. They do ship internationally however, so PM sent.   :-+

For an alternate source, Emona (http://www.emona.com.au/products/electronic-test-measure/oscilloscopes/ds1054z.html#.VYFwhzgo5aQ) would be worth a look given your location.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dylbob42 on June 17, 2015, 02:06:56 pm
thanks for the reply's
 i was a bit on the fence about the bugs. wasn't sure if it was the glitchy brick people were making it out to be.  ill have to start hunting down a supplier. Ive seen it mentioned that there is some sort of discount for EEVblog members, is that true? could i get some details if anyone knows.

ill look into getting a LA too

cheers all  :-+
There's a discount from TEquipment.net (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/), which is located in the US. They do ship internationally however, so PM sent.   :-+

For an alternate source, Emona (http://www.emona.com.au/products/electronic-test-measure/oscilloscopes/ds1054z.html#.VYFwhzgo5aQ) would be worth a look given your location.

awesome! thanks for that, think ill get it from TEquipment, i can wait for free post. AUSTPost is quite costly, are there any accessorys i should pick up from them while im at it?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mauroh on June 17, 2015, 02:32:06 pm
Since you need the LA have you considered the MS1074z?
I chose the DS1074z and a Saleae 8 clone (8$, sorry Saleae guys I will consider the genuine one when I will sell thousand of my electronic gadgets... :))
If you will like the tool and you will need more, you can upgrade lately to something more powerful (also the new Saleae are nice).

Mauro
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on June 17, 2015, 02:38:47 pm
thanks for the reply's
 i was a bit on the fence about the bugs. wasn't sure if it was the glitchy brick people were making it out to be.  ill have to start hunting down a supplier. Ive seen it mentioned that there is some sort of discount for EEVblog members, is that true? could i get some details if anyone knows.

ill look into getting a LA too

cheers all  :-+
Do note that the free shipping is only for the continental US, so there will be a shipping fee to OZ.
There's a discount from TEquipment.net (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/), which is located in the US. They do ship internationally however, so PM sent.   :-+

For an alternate source, Emona (http://www.emona.com.au/products/electronic-test-measure/oscilloscopes/ds1054z.html#.VYFwhzgo5aQ) would be worth a look given your location.

awesome! thanks for that, think ill get it from TEquipment, i can wait for free post. AUSTPost is quite costly, are there any accessorys i should pick up from them while im at it?
Do note that the free shipping offer is only for the continental US, not international delivery.

As per the rate, that will be set based on the carrier you chose on TEquipment's site when you place the order. As per postal systems, the rate is set by the first postal service to handle the package. So if say the US Postal Service starts your package delivery, they set the rate, even though AUSTPost will finish the delivery to your door (international postal agreements).

As per extra goodies to add to the order, that's up to you. Examine your need, and go from there. For example, if you need an active probe and their prices are better than you can find at home, go for it. Just keep the total value within 1000AUD to avoid GST.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: John Coloccia on June 17, 2015, 03:14:06 pm
thanks for the reply's
 i was a bit on the fence about the bugs. wasn't sure if it was the glitchy brick people were making it out to be.  ill have to start hunting down a supplier. Ive seen it mentioned that there is some sort of discount for EEVblog members, is that true? could i get some details if anyone knows.

ill look into getting a LA too

cheers all  :-+

The major bug at the moment is that with a specific time base setting, AND a longer than minimum persistence setting, AND the memory depth set to auto, SOME scopes lock up. It is a major bug because the scope should NEVER lock-up, but it's so easy to avoid that it's completely a non-issue.  Believe me, with all the hair pulling, cursing and face palming I've had to do over the years to track down and make workarounds for bugs in various pieces of equipment, I'd kill to have this be the worst I'd ever have to run into!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bakerts on June 19, 2015, 04:23:19 am
I scraped a few dollars together and ordered a DS1054Z along with some other things from TEquipment using the discount code. It's coming tomorrow, and I'm pretty excited!

I have no friends, and wanted to tell someone...   :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on June 21, 2015, 05:17:05 am
My DS1054Z arrived today, upgrade went great!

Came with 04.03.00 installed - I see the newest download update is 04.03.00.01 - Are they the exact same version and the scope just doesn't show the least significant digits or should I try an update?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on June 21, 2015, 08:41:17 am
My DS1054Z arrived today, upgrade went great!

Came with 04.03.00 installed - I see the newest download update is 04.03.00.01 - Are they the exact same version and the scope just doesn't show the least significant digits or should I try an update?
Unless you know that a newer firmware version fixes one or more bugs which are an issue for you, I'd leave well alone.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 22, 2015, 04:35:13 am
thanks for the reply's
 i was a bit on the fence about the bugs. wasn't sure if it was the glitchy brick people were making it out to be.  ill have to start hunting down a supplier. Ive seen it mentioned that there is some sort of discount for EEVblog members, is that true? could i get some details if anyone knows.

ill look into getting a LA too

cheers all  :-+

The major bug at the moment is that with a specific time base setting, AND a longer than minimum persistence setting, AND the memory depth set to auto, SOME scopes lock up. It is a major bug because the scope should NEVER lock-up, but it's so easy to avoid that it's completely a non-issue.  Believe me, with all the hair pulling, cursing and face palming I've had to do over the years to track down and make workarounds for bugs in various pieces of equipment, I'd kill to have this be the worst I'd ever have to run into!

I would almost agree with you if _every_ DS1054Z had the bug. A known issue, relatively easy to work around, possibly fixable in later software revisions.

But ... the fact seems to be that _some_  units do, and some don't, have the bug, with slightly more than 50 percent of units tested having the bug. (In the other thread discussing this bug, 46 users have reported testing their scopes and 24 have been able to reproduce the lock-up.) This means that there is something seriously wrong at Rigol. The only thing I can think of is that _some_ DS1054Z units have some defective, or at least "differently abled" hardware that made it into the scopes. (For newcomers: This bug happens in susceptible units regardless of whether or not the scope is "virgin" unhacked, and regardless of firmware 4.02 or 4.03.) So _some_ DS1054Z scopes are better than others.... the ones that don't lock up are obviously better.
Who knows what other "bugs" may be associated with whatever fault is causing the Lock-Up (or Freeze) bug? The scopes that suffer from it are, in some sense of the word, defective. If it's a hardware issue, or a construction issue, then how long will it be before something else associated with the defective hardware or construction raises its head and bites?

I still use mine every day, I still love it, and I have no intention of returning it _unless_ Rigol issues a recall... which I think is very unlikely. But it is definitely defective.... since around 50 percent or slightly fewer of the total DS1054 units tested _do not_ behave this way.

It's this half-and-half distribution that is most distressing to me. I'm in the "losing" group, having a scope that is subject to the bug. So I can't use certain legitimate settings that other DS1054Z users can use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vk6zgo on June 22, 2015, 07:48:15 am
Another day, and other 5 minutes of test:

The first image is of a 130MHZ signal (50% AM modulated by 1khz sine)  just to push the scope to its limits.
The second is about the trigger out jitter time (3nS) measured from the rear output.

Moreover following results are measured by a calibrated 5334B and 1MHZ square wave:
  • in dot mode the best wfps i saw was 52.8k @50nS/div 600 pts memory.
  • in vector mode it was 28.8k @50nS/div 600 pts memory.
The acquistion modes doesn't affect the wps rate.

These results simply make me sad because now I have to get one!  ;D

If you really want to see the limitations of your instrument,look at the 130MHz modulated signal at the modulation frequency.
Set the time/div to something like 5mS/div to give you a reasonable number of modulation cycles.
Older DSOs would always fail this test,even with much lower carrier frequencies than you are using,because they reduced the sample rate radically at such time/div settings.

Modern DSOs don't seem to reduce the sample rate so much,but it would be interesting to see if the DS1054Z can pass this test with such a high carrier frequency.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: John Coloccia on June 22, 2015, 09:16:17 am
This means that there is something seriously wrong at Rigol. The only thing I can think of is that _some_ DS1054Z units have some defective, or at least "differently abled" hardware that made it into the scopes. (For newcomers: This bug happens in susceptible units regardless of whether or not the scope is "virgin" unhacked, and regardless of firmware 4.02 or 4.03.) So _some_ DS1054Z scopes are better than others.... the ones that don't lock up are obviously better.

It doesn't mean that at all, and I explained at least once or twice in the other thread how "identical" hardware can exhibit different behavior, especially if you're dealing with some sort of race condition (and I would bet that we are).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 22, 2015, 04:36:37 pm
This means that there is something seriously wrong at Rigol. The only thing I can think of is that _some_ DS1054Z units have some defective, or at least "differently abled" hardware that made it into the scopes. (For newcomers: This bug happens in susceptible units regardless of whether or not the scope is "virgin" unhacked, and regardless of firmware 4.02 or 4.03.) So _some_ DS1054Z scopes are better than others.... the ones that don't lock up are obviously better.

It doesn't mean that at all, and I explained at least once or twice in the other thread how "identical" hardware can exhibit different behavior, especially if you're dealing with some sort of race condition (and I would bet that we are).
I'm afraid that I don't agree with that. If we cannot expect identical hardware to behave identically in identical situations, how are we to design anything with confidence?

How do you think Dave would have reviewed this scope, if he had managed to make his freeze up while making his "review" or "teardown" videos? Starting up non-responsive and requiring a "factory reset" to work at all?  I can just imagine the descriptive rhetoric he may have emitted.

How would you feel if the next time you took an airplane flight, the flight failed to take off, due to "some sort of a race condition" in the flight management software?

Personally, I feel rather annoyed that my scope locks up _under any conditions_, but more so when I know that other users have the same model scope that _does not lock up_ under those same conditions.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: John Coloccia on June 22, 2015, 06:41:13 pm
I'm afraid that I don't agree with that. If we cannot expect identical hardware to behave identically in identical situations, how are we to design anything with confidence?

Because you design your system to work with plenty of margin, so slight differences don't matter.  When you have a bugs, they can operate in ways that there is NO margin....because it's a bug.  Come on, do you really think that there is such a thing as "identical" hardware.  You'll never be able to design anything but the most trivial of systems if you depend on all of your design parameters being identical from unit to unit.

Obviously, I don't have the code in front of me, but I don't have any reason to believe that this isn't just a software bug, and that they'll fix it without much trouble.  I've tracked down a great many software bugs over the years that are practically impossible to reproduce on some units, and happen every time on others.  Sometimes, it's actually a hardware problem on the WORKING units that is actually masking the software bug, and it's the "broken" units that are actually doing it right.  That happens.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on June 22, 2015, 09:07:46 pm
There was a similar feature when the interim beta fix to the infamous jitter problem was released late last year. Although the jitter thing was apparently resolved, the front panel locked up about 50% of the time on some units when cold booted, but the display itself still appeared fine. Fix was to cold boot again. While the fix isn't the same, the symptoms, of an apparently locked panel, are.

It would be reasonable to expect that there is a standalone MCU running the front panel switches, LEDs and quadrature encoders, and that talks with the main unit's processor. It's also quite reasonable also that they lose comms for a variety of reasons, most likely due to a timing related problem. Although the main processor will be crystal controlled, for a realtively low end front panel MCU it'll quite likely be using a simple RC oscillator, either internal or external, with the tolerances associated with such, and so sometimes you'll see the interprocessor comms break. This seems to be exacerbated under high primary processor load, which could easily affect the inter-processor timing.

Equally, there are a number of different versions of board versions inside these scopes. That too could help explain it away. Testing firmware against a number of seemingly benign hardware differences may seem unnecessary, but it is, I do exactly that on my products, and sometimes you need to put in slightly different code paths for different board versions. Those different code paths, if not fully regression tested across all hardware configurations, may inevitably lead to such bugs.

This is of course conjecture as to the actual underlying problem, but hopefully it explains how some apparently superficially identical units, aren't actually the same in subtle ways not immediately evident.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rbino on June 23, 2015, 02:54:40 am
Hi everybody, this is my first message here!
First of all, I just wanted to thank you for all the useful info that you put here, I received my DS1054Z today after lurking for weeks before deciding. This is my first scope so I'm very excited! :D
I've already unlocked it and it all went smooth at the first try, mine came with firmware 00.04.02.SP4, do you think that I should update to the latest one or "If it works, don't touch it"?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on June 23, 2015, 03:03:07 am
I see that the Rigol upgraded firmware is now sporting version 00.04.03.SP1 inside the posted zip file

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

Has any one tried this newest upgrade?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitwelder on June 23, 2015, 06:44:55 am
I see that the Rigol upgraded firmware is now sporting version 00.04.03.SP1 inside the posted zip file
That SP1 makes me think they found some important regression from the 00.04.03.0x, so indeed it would be good to know what was fixed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on June 23, 2015, 06:49:24 am
Seems like the new firmware fixes the "freeze" bug. At least on my DS1054Z (hacked) after I installed the update, the problem appears to have vanished.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on June 23, 2015, 09:02:20 am
I have updated my DS1054Z to this latest firmware version and find the freeze problem with 1usec, 100msec persistence and horiz delayed mode is still there.  The panel controls all lock up as before.  However there is one difference a reboot always restores the scope to normal every time no more fifth button pressing.  Also another funny is that pressing the Auto button (already flashing Auto), after a few relay clicks, returns a message saying 'Auto detected none'.  I need to refresh my mind on what pressing Auto should do and when to do it.  Back to the manual watch this space.

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on June 23, 2015, 09:20:21 am
'Auto detected none' only applies when there is no signal input so that is OK although  I would have preferred  'no signal input' perhaps.  However the 'freeze' is definitely not fixed by this latest f/w build on my particular DS1054Z but at least it works every time on just a reboot.  I await the next f/w update.

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 23, 2015, 09:22:34 am
Unfortunately... even after installing the 04.03.SP1 firmware just now... I am still able to get the scope to lock up, and even start up locked, just as before. And the "horizontal position of the Math trace" bug is still there too.

:(


ETA: But now the nonfunctional window button that had appeared in the X-Y menu is gone.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on June 23, 2015, 12:40:56 pm
That's awkward. The first attempt to reproduce the lock-up after I flashed the new firmware (after reboot of course) didn't show the bug. Now I experimented some more and was somewhat able to freeze the thing but yet not completely - the o'scope responded to inputs but it did so only with a huge delay. Finally, it appeared to have locked up completely. After a power cycle, the instument booted right into frozen state. After that, I power cycled the device again (without applying the F5 reset) and -- surprise, surprise -- it reset all by itself to factory configuration, with chinese language set.

After that, I ran a self calibration which ended up with a message "Calibration failed"... Currently, the claibration is running a second time, if this also fails, I'll re-install the previous firmware to see if this is causing the problem.

Probably I should rather use the instrument for what it's ment for and not tinker around with it ;-)

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on June 23, 2015, 12:52:42 pm
Further information on the 'freeze' condition.  I have tried a few other checks on recovery from a 'freeze' see below.

Start conditions: 1khz calibrate signal on CH1,  120kpts, normal display, 100msec Persistence

Timebase in usec.         Time taken for Delayed to go to ON state.

500                                      ~1 sec
200                                      ~2-3 sec
100                                      ~4 sec
50                                        ~6-7 sec
20                                        ~30 sec
10                                        ~40 sec *
5                                          ~35 minutes
1                                          I hate to think!

* Incidentally the screen display highlight for the button takes some 10 secs to appear followed another 30 sec to become active again.  The highlighting always precedes the becoming active condition.

It would appear that wherever the f/w goes it recovers but whatever looping condition is involved the timebase period is impacting on the termination time of the loop.  Each timebase increment increases the sampling rate and presumably extends the data storage requirements in some way,perhaps there are many 100 msec persistences, being stored!  Until that all completes and says ok nothing further happens!  I will try some more thoughts out later.

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on June 23, 2015, 01:14:54 pm
Some more findings with the new firmware: After the self calibration routine kept failing, I attempted to revert to firmware 04.03 - which also returned a failure message. So as yet, I would recommend not to install the new firmware! Of course, these are all findings with my particular DS1054Z, others may behave differently. If the problems persist, I will wait for the next firmware revision and if this wouldn't sort the difficulties, undo the hack and return my o'scope to the distributor for repair.

Add-On: The calibration procedure finally terminated successfully -- at the fourth attempt! I guess I'll be a little more reluctant when the next update is available :-)

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on June 23, 2015, 01:32:27 pm
From my previous post it would seem that a relationship between the Sampling rate and the 'freeze' condition does exist see below:

TB usec         Sampling Rate Msa/s     Delayed ON secs

500                     10                         ~1
200                     25                         ~2-3
100                     50                         ~4
50                      125                        ~6-7
20                      250                        ~30
10                      500                        ~40
5                       1,000                      ~35 minutes

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 23, 2015, 04:59:43 pm
Some more findings with the new firmware: After the self calibration routine kept failing, I attempted to revert to firmware 04.03 - which also returned a failure message. So as yet, I would recommend not to install the new firmware! Of course, these are all findings with my particular DS1054Z, others may behave differently. If the problems persist, I will wait for the next firmware revision and if this wouldn't sort the difficulties, undo the hack and return my o'scope to the distributor for repair.

Add-On: The calibration procedure finally terminated successfully -- at the fourth attempt! I guess I'll be a little more reluctant when the next update is available :-)

Cheers,
Thomas

Whew, that's pretty scary ... so I just ran the self-cal routine on my scope. It took 18 1/2 minutes, same as before the new firmware update, and completed successfully without problems.

Does anyone have a "change log" for this latest firmware update? 00.04.03.01.05, identified as 00.04.03.SP1 on the System Information screen when installed.

Does anyone know if it is even possible to roll back to an earlier firmware version than the one currently installed on a DS1054Z?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: blat on June 24, 2015, 01:53:33 am

Does anyone have a "change log" for this latest firmware update? 00.04.03.01.05, identified as 00.04.03.SP1 on the System Information screen when installed.


It's available at the same URL as the previous one. The first four are "enhancements" the rest "modifications". Here's what it says:

Version:00.04.03.01.05
Date:2015-06-16

1. System menu adds support for French.
2. Added the remote command and function for inter-connection with DG4.
3. The module of Math increase the function of filter.
4. Added the remote command which can set the invert and format of picture (:DISP:DATA? {<color>,<invert>,<format>})

5. Optimized the algorithm of LF calibration and self-calibration and increase the prompt of failure.
6. Turned on delay scanning and force stop the system,then the trigger position of waveform changed.
7. In scanning mode,turned on the Zoom display and setted the AC as the trigger coupling,then adjusted the timebase of Zoom zone and the waveform display error.
8. In mixed mode,use logic channel as trigger source and turn off the logic channel and stop the system,then adjust the timebase to the minimum,the part of analog signal disappeared.
9. In mixed mode,use logic channel as trigger source and turn off the logic channel,then the analog signal shifted.
10. The wave of channel1 can not be displayed while open the scan mode then switch the channel2 over and over again.
11. The waveform will be move downward while change the trigger type from the pattern type to the edge type.
12. In scanning mode,turned on the delay scan,the display of the first waveform is wrong.
13. It can not display the waveform of trace when load the file of trace data in “STOP” mode and math module is on.
14. Adjust the timebase offset can make the system crashed when run the “I2C Decoder”.
15. Save the waveform when turned on FFT function and use the momery data to operate and turn on split display,then load the waveform of saved,but the display of waveform is error.
16. Save the waveform when turned on the delay scan and only the logic channel turned on and trigger source is logic channel,then default the system setting and load the waveform of saved,but the display of waveform is error.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sigsegv11 on June 24, 2015, 03:28:05 am
New owner of a DS1054Z here, my first 'scope!

I'm beginning to understand the relationship of memory depth to screen update speed, as well as persistence.

One thing I don't understand is why does the scope drop down from 1GSa/s to 500MSa/s even in single shot mode when I switch from 500us to 1ms timebase?

It's clearly not that some memory is slower than the rest, as if I force memory depth to 24M points and capture a single shot at 500us timebase, and then I can zoom out to 2ms timebase with a 1GSa/s sample. If I do the same capture starting with a 2ms timebase I get 250MSa/s.

Is there a good reason for this? I can't figure it out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tech5940 on June 24, 2015, 04:08:32 am
I had upgraded to 00.04.03.01.05 and my scope failed self cal first time around as well. Second time it did pass though. Just a heads up for those thinking of upgrading the firmware you might want to wait!


Sent from my iPhone
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on June 24, 2015, 04:31:01 am
Having a great time with my DS1054Z, had it for a few days now. The -3db point for all 4 channels is 117 MHz which seems pretty decent(my scope thinks it is a DS1104Z for some reason). The built in hardware frequency counter is rock solid to about 99.5 MHz, the software counter seems to keep going to about 400 MHz if you only need a rough estimate of the frequency(near MHz). If I could change anything I'd make the case black, and probably lay out the keys a little bit more like a Tek scope. Overall I am extremely impressed, I sold a Tek THS720 to finance the purchase and have $$ left over.
This is my first Rigol product, I imagine there may be a DSA815-TG in the shack very soon as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vk6zgo on June 24, 2015, 07:51:03 am
New owner of a DS1054Z here, my first 'scope!

I'm beginning to understand the relationship of memory depth to screen update speed, as well as persistence.

One thing I don't understand is why does the scope drop down from 1GSa/s to 500MSa/s even in single shot mode when I switch from 500us to 1ms timebase?

It's clearly not that some memory is slower than the rest, as if I force memory depth to 24M points and capture a single shot at 500us timebase, and then I can zoom out to 2ms timebase with a 1GSa/s sample. If I do the same capture starting with a 2ms timebase I get 250MSa/s.

Is there a good reason for this? I can't figure it out.

Well,I suppose it has to drop down somewhere.
The old DSOs I remember playing with were down to about 4MSa/s,or less.at that setting.

500MSa/s,if it is maintained down to 5mS/div,is good enough to meet the test I referred to in Reply#1513.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on June 24, 2015, 09:05:22 am
One thing I don't understand is why does the scope drop down from 1GSa/s to 500MSa/s even in single shot mode when I switch from 500us to 1ms timebase?

Is there a good reason for this? I can't figure it out.

The sample rate is mathematically tied to the length of time the DSO can capture before the given sample memory size is filled. Assuming the DSO can use all of the memory for one channel (and I don't own a DS1000Z, so I don't know for sure), if your sample size is set to 24MB, you should be able to maintain the 1GSa/s rate (1ns per sample) until 2ms/div (1ns * 24M = 2ms * 12 divs). If your sample size is set to 12MB, then until 1ms/div - and if your sample size is 1.2MB, the 1GSa/s rate would only work until the 100us timebase (1ns * 1.2M / 12).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: K5HJ on June 24, 2015, 01:53:45 pm

Does anyone have a "change log" for this latest firmware update? 00.04.03.01.05, identified as 00.04.03.SP1 on the System Information screen when installed.


It's available at the same URL as the previous one. The first four are "enhancements" the rest "modifications". Here's what it says:

Version:00.04.03.01.05
Date:2015-06-16

1. System menu adds support for French.
2. Added the remote command and function for inter-connection with DG4.
3. The module of Math increase the function of filter.
4. Added the remote command which can set the invert and format of picture (:DISP:DATA? {<color>,<invert>,<format>})

5. Optimized the algorithm of LF calibration and self-calibration and increase the prompt of failure.
6. Turned on delay scanning and force stop the system,then the trigger position of waveform changed.
7. In scanning mode,turned on the Zoom display and setted the AC as the trigger coupling,then adjusted the timebase of Zoom zone and the waveform display error.
8. In mixed mode,use logic channel as trigger source and turn off the logic channel and stop the system,then adjust the timebase to the minimum,the part of analog signal disappeared.
9. In mixed mode,use logic channel as trigger source and turn off the logic channel,then the analog signal shifted.
10. The wave of channel1 can not be displayed while open the scan mode then switch the channel2 over and over again.
11. The waveform will be move downward while change the trigger type from the pattern type to the edge type.
12. In scanning mode,turned on the delay scan,the display of the first waveform is wrong.
13. It can not display the waveform of trace when load the file of trace data in “STOP” mode and math module is on.
14. Adjust the timebase offset can make the system crashed when run the “I2C Decoder”.
15. Save the waveform when turned on FFT function and use the momery data to operate and turn on split display,then load the waveform of saved,but the display of waveform is error.
16. Save the waveform when turned on the delay scan and only the logic channel turned on and trigger source is logic channel,then default the system setting and load the waveform of saved,but the display of waveform is error.
There are enhancements to the FFT as well.
See this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD-3ni7tYM4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD-3ni7tYM4)
Works quite well.

Randy
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Muxr on June 24, 2015, 04:18:44 pm
Wait, he pronounces Rigol, Ree-gol! not R-aye-gol! I've been pronouncing it wrong all along.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marmad on June 24, 2015, 04:46:17 pm
There are enhancements to the FFT as well.
Works quite well.

Randy

That is nice. One of the big drawbacks of the FFT on the Rigols was the small data set.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: method72 on June 24, 2015, 07:30:18 pm
been doing software development and some cad/3d printing for a while, and recently working more on the electronics side.  Mostly 555 timer stuff, like the APC etc, but i am looking to expand my bench tools and  am in the market to pick up this scope, and hoping the discount code is still valid.. if someone can PM me please.

thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark on June 24, 2015, 07:34:38 pm
Do all the unlocked options still work with the latest firmware??
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on June 24, 2015, 07:55:51 pm
Do all the unlocked options still work with the latest firmware??

No issues here.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on June 24, 2015, 08:07:24 pm
Do all the unlocked options still work with the latest firmware??


It remains unchanged the unlocked options   :-+

Regards
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: AlexDavidson on June 24, 2015, 11:03:58 pm
Quote
There are enhancements to FFT as well.

Let’s hope they make similar enhancements to protocol decoding. Currently only Trace can be used as the data source, which is quite limiting...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hayatepilot on June 25, 2015, 05:25:50 am
I updated my 1054z yesterday without any problems.
It failed at the first self cal attempt, but succeeded in the second try.  :-+

Greetings
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 25, 2015, 08:14:54 am
There are enhancements to the FFT as well.
Works quite well.

Randy

That is nice. One of the big drawbacks of the FFT on the Rigols was the small data set.

Sigh. Of course I had to try it right away.... and I noticed this: When I switch between "Trace" and "Memory*" I lose the Center Frequency and Hz/Div settings that I had set up. The scope resets these to whatever it thinks is "default" for the signal I'm displaying. So they have to be reset to some value that makes sense for the signal I'm looking at. It would be nice if these settings did not change. The shots below show the result of changing from "Trace" with a good display of Hz/div and Center Frequency, to "Memory*" which automatically resets those to a somewhat less useful display.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Stupid Beard on June 25, 2015, 09:44:14 am
Not sure anyone noticed, but the FFT seems to be working on channels other than CH1 now.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on June 25, 2015, 10:57:06 pm
Does anyone have a "change log" for this latest firmware update? 00.04.03.01.05, identified as 00.04.03.SP1 on the System Information screen when installed.
It's available at the same URL as the previous one. The first four are "enhancements" the rest "modifications". Here's what it says:

And what is that URL please?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Kratz on June 26, 2015, 05:03:06 am
And what is that URL please?

It's on page 102, but for your convenience:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 26, 2015, 06:26:14 am
And what is that URL please?

It's on page 102, but for your convenience:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

I can't seem to find anything like a "change log" listing the actual changes at that link. What am I missing?

By the way... if you print out a "Param" txt file (Storage>Storage>Param, then Save, select your USB stick, name the file, then view it on your computer) you see a bunch of information, at the top of which appears:

Quote
Model:DS1xxxZ
SN:DS1Zxxxxxxxxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1

So... what is the difference between the "Firmware" and the "Software" as labelled here?
When we upgrade what we have been calling "Firmware" does this also upgrade or change what Rigol is calling "Firmware" here? I don't know because I didn't save a "Param" file before my recent "firmware" upgrades.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on June 26, 2015, 07:11:58 am
I don't any details but I did notice I have a newer Boot version than listed above(just got the scope from tequipment 2 weeks ago):

Model:DS1054Z
SN:DS1ZA17171XXXX
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on June 26, 2015, 07:12:56 am

So... what is the difference between the "Firmware" and the "Software" as labelled here?
When we upgrade what we have been calling "Firmware" does this also upgrade or change what Rigol is calling "Firmware" here? I don't know because I didn't save a "Param" file before my recent "firmware" upgrades.

I get:

Quote
Model:DS1xxxZ
SN:DS1Zxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.1
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.02.SP4

So the Firmware Ver, whatever that subsystem is, has not changed from 04.02 to 04.03.   I wonder if this is even user updatable.  If it were I would expect the Utility --> System --> System Info screen to show it, but it doens't.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on June 26, 2015, 09:05:14 am
And what is that URL please?
It's on page 102, but for your convenience:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

Sorry I wasn't clear.  I was asking what the URL is for the change log.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: blat on June 26, 2015, 11:49:48 pm
And what is that URL please?
It's on page 102, but for your convenience:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

Sorry I wasn't clear.  I was asking what the URL is for the change log.

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/s-065b-1505/Bct/l-3f49/l-3f49:dd4/ct2_0/1?sid=ErJFAfDAl (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/s-065b-1505/Bct/l-3f49/l-3f49:dd4/ct2_0/1?sid=ErJFAfDAl)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Ecklar on July 05, 2015, 06:35:57 pm
JimmyK

You need to uninstall all options to remove the 500uV option by using the SCPI command :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall, then reboot the oscilloscope.  The SCPI command must be sent via the USB or LAN port.

Then reinstall your desired options (use DSER for all options except 500uV option).

When I look at the KeyGen page gotroot, I don't see any DSER option.  Do you use that input code anyway?  Also, if you upgraded DS1054Z previously to all options can't you just ignore the 500uS string and simply not use it, or, does having it on your scope affect your scope. 
One more thing, can you just select upgrading one option at a time and do not pick that one?   Like Memory upgrade, Record upgrade etc.?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on July 05, 2015, 06:54:12 pm
I've installed all options and it works fine. The 500µ does not work correctly, but's usable. I see no other issues with this option installed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 06, 2015, 12:27:06 am
I've installed all options and it works fine. The 500µ does not work correctly, but's usable. I see no other issues with this option installed.

As stated many times on this forum:  The 500 uV/div option IS NOT supported by the DS1000Z hardware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 06, 2015, 01:46:57 am
JimmyK

You need to uninstall all options to remove the 500uV option by using the SCPI command :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall, then reboot the oscilloscope.  The SCPI command must be sent via the USB or LAN port.

Then reinstall your desired options (use DSER for all options except 500uV option).

When I look at the KeyGen page gotroot, I don't see any DSER option.  Do you use that input code anyway? 


Yes.

Quote
Also, if you upgraded DS1054Z previously to all options can't you just ignore the 500uS string and simply not use it, or, does having it on your scope affect your scope. 

Do you mean 500 uV/div? Some people have reported other strange behaviour when that option is enabled on the 1054Z, iirc. So the recommendation is to not install that option.

Quote
One more thing, can you just select upgrading one option at a time and do not pick that one?   Like Memory upgrade, Record upgrade etc.?

Yes.
But the easiest thing to do is to enter "DSER" as the option code in the keygen. This will generate a key that will enable all available options including 100 MHz bw, but _not_ including the 500 uV/div option.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: keninvic on July 06, 2015, 04:29:39 pm
I updated my 1054z yesterday without any problems.
It failed at the first self cal attempt, but succeeded in the second try.  :-+

Greetings

After updating, I tried Self-Cal and it failed twice.   3rd attempt it passed.   I think it needs to be warmed up for about 45 minutes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: highwayman on July 08, 2015, 11:03:22 am
Is there a known software code that can restore my scope to its configuration before I applied the 'DSER' upgrade?
Or is UltraSigma the only way to do it?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 08, 2015, 12:25:45 pm
Is there a known software code that can restore my scope to its configuration before I applied the 'DSER' upgrade?
Or is UltraSigma the only way to do it?
You don't have to use UltraSigma, you can use any method that will send SCPI commands to the scope. I use telnet over the LAN connection. Several people have developed and posted software that will talk to the scope and send the SCPI commands, using USB or LAN. Check back in the thread.

But for me, just sending commands, telnet over the LAN connection is the easiest way.

You need to send:

:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

just exactly as written there, caps and lowercase and colons. This will reset the Options and bandwidth back to stock, but if you've used the scope more than 30 hours, the Trial Options will still be timed out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on July 08, 2015, 01:30:31 pm
:SYST:OPT:UNINST is fine as well.

It's all described here (page 157): http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on July 08, 2015, 03:37:41 pm
:SYST:OPT:UNINST is fine as well.

It's all described here (page 157): http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)

I suppose the statement is incorrect.
Correct would have to be :SYST:OPT:UNIN
I have not tried it, but in the firmware, there is only UNINstall and UNIN.

Peter

It's not unlikely, the programming guides of Rigol differ a lot with the actual behaviour of the scopes (unfortunately)...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on July 08, 2015, 03:51:16 pm
lower case characters are optional so partial names will work:

UNIN
UNINS
UNINST
UNINSTA
UNINSTAL
UNINSTALL

should all do the same thing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 09, 2015, 12:53:39 am
Perhaps those abbreviations "should" all work the same, but perhaps they don't actually. Have you actually tested them?
Several people have reported that using the abbreviations doesn't work for them.  Of course they may be making typing mistakes...

I've made a text file with the commands that I use most often (the full commands, upper and lower case as given in the manual) and when I want to send a command to the scope I just copy-paste from the text file into the telnet or other program that sends the command to the scope. That way I know I'm not making mistakes, and it always works for me.

I've uninstalled and reinstalled the options at least a dozen times, while testing for various bugs, and haven't had a failure yet, using the full text as I indicated in my post above. YMMV of course. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 09, 2015, 01:20:10 am
lower case characters are optional so partial names will work:

UNIN
UNINS
UNINST
UNINSTA
UNINSTAL
UNINSTALL

should all do the same thing.

I always thought that the SCPI commands had to be completely spelled out or abbreviated to the capitol letters.
So only  :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall  and  :SYST:OPT:UNINST  are acceptable.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on July 09, 2015, 06:29:39 am
"All the commands are case-insensitive and you can use any of them. If abbreviation is used, all the capital
letters in the command must be written completely."

Source (page 17): http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on July 14, 2015, 09:04:26 am
I have just noticed in the beginners section by IE 4 under oscilloscope heading that Rigol have released a new F/W  for the DS1054 etc.  see below:

Rigol just made an announcement  about improving the FFT  on the  MSO/DSO1000Z series scopes

"With the latest firmware for the MSO/DS1000Z Series (00.04.03 SP2) we have improved our FFT functionality.

From now on your can choose the whether you want to have FFT calculation on display point or if you want to have done the FFT calculation on 16k points"

Does anyone have further information, release note, or know where it can be downloaded from?

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on July 14, 2015, 09:13:13 am
You can download the Firmware here: http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/p-0019/Bct/l-3f49/l-3f49:ee3/ct1_0/1?sid=5QnnsxcKo (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/p-0019/Bct/l-3f49/l-3f49:ee3/ct1_0/1?sid=5QnnsxcKo)

Release Notes are here: http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05ba/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf?sid=ErJFAfDAl (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05ba/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf?sid=ErJFAfDAl)

I installed this on my MSO1104Z-S last night and everything seems fine. The new FFT function shows up and seems to work. Haven't tested what other tweaks have been done. If you've "liberated" any additional options they will also still be ok. I left the scope on for 30 minutes after rebooting (after the update) and ran a recal which also went fine. Some users have mentioned that the first / second recal failed right after the update, but I didn't have that issue.

McBryce.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on July 14, 2015, 12:46:54 pm
Thanks for the response however the new f/w referred to stated that it was 00.04.03 SP2.  The previous f/w update was 00.04.03 SP1 from last month.  It may of course be a mistake and there is no later f/w update this month!

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on July 14, 2015, 01:03:43 pm
Oh, an SP2!! It seems unlikely, but I'd like to know more too if there is one. Especially as a further release that soon would suggest that they messed something up badly in 04.03 SP1.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tom66 on July 14, 2015, 01:51:43 pm
It would be really nice if they improved the serial decode such that it worked on more than the screen memory. I can dream...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on July 14, 2015, 01:59:07 pm
Thanks for the response however the new f/w referred to stated that it was 00.04.03 SP2.  The previous f/w update was 00.04.03 SP1 from last month.  It may of course be a mistake and there is no later f/w update this month!

John

After reading the entire internet (twice) in my lunch break, I've decided it must be a typo. For a start the FFT improvement happened in 04.03 SP1 (I tested it last night on my scope). One month between releases just sounds too quick too and I can't find any other mention of 04.03 SP2 on the interwebs.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kwass on July 14, 2015, 03:43:29 pm

After reading the entire internet (twice) in my lunch break, I've decided it must be a typo. For a start the FFT improvement happened in 04.03 SP1 (I tested it last night on my scope). One month between releases just sounds too quick too and I can't find any other mention of 04.03 SP2 on the interwebs.

This document (found by another member here) seems to be Rigol's definitive list of versions:  http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05ba/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf?sid=ErJFAfDAl (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05ba/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf?sid=ErJFAfDAl)

It shows:

00.04.03.01.05   Date 2015-06-16
00.04.03.00.01   Date 2015-05-05
00.04.02.04.07   Date 2014-12-31
00.04.02.03.00   Date 2014-10-21
00.04.01.02.00   Date 2014-07-28

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 14, 2015, 05:53:08 pm

After reading the entire internet (twice) in my lunch break, I've decided it must be a typo. For a start the FFT improvement happened in 04.03 SP1 (I tested it last night on my scope). One month between releases just sounds too quick too and I can't find any other mention of 04.03 SP2 on the interwebs.

This document (found by another member here) seems to be Rigol's definitive list of versions:  http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05ba/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf?sid=ErJFAfDAl (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05ba/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf?sid=ErJFAfDAl)

It shows:

00.04.03.01.05   Date?2015-06-16
00.04.03.00.01   Date?2015-05-05
00.04.02.04.07   Date?2014-12-31
00.04.02.03.00   Date?2014-10-21
00.04.01.02.00   Date?2014-07-28

Yes, that's right, and the one at the top of the list has a date of 26 May 2015 (inside the zipfile), and when installed to the scope, the System Info screen calls it "00.04.03.SP1" .
This is what you get from the link that McBryce posted up above.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on July 14, 2015, 07:12:11 pm
ya, but's not the latest one form 2015-06-16   /  00.04.03.01.05

00.04.03.SP1 seems to be this one 00.04.03.SP1 ( 00.04.03.00.01   Date 2015-05-05 )
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 14, 2015, 07:25:56 pm
I installed the version from here (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) which is 00.04.03.01.05 dated 2015-05-26.  The System Info page on the scope says 00.04.03.SP1 afterwards.  The SPx has always corresponded to the 4th digit (i.e. 01).  If the 4th digit is zero, the scope doesn't display SP0.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on July 14, 2015, 09:35:05 pm
The SPx has always corresponded to the 4th digit (i.e. 01).  If the 4th digit is zero, the scope doesn't display SP0.

Ak, ok thank u.  Works fine.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 15, 2015, 10:14:15 am
ya, but's not the latest one form 2015-06-16   /  00.04.03.01.05

Yes, it is, as you have now evidently found out.

Quote
00.04.03.SP1 seems to be this one 00.04.03.SP1 ( 00.04.03.00.01   Date 2015-05-05 )

No, it's not.

The links in McBryce's post and in MarkF's post wind up at the same zipfile.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sa5acl on July 16, 2015, 08:19:43 pm
Maybe already answered, but is 00.04.03.SP1 hackable?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on July 16, 2015, 08:28:30 pm
Maybe already answered, but is 00.04.03.SP1 hackable?

ya
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: danadak on July 17, 2015, 10:43:31 pm
They added the digital filter back into the math function.

Super !

Regards, Dana.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: danadak on July 18, 2015, 08:26:47 pm
Can someone clear up something for me. Why does the Rigol DS1054Z not allow measurements on its
math waveform ? Its just another waveform in memory.

For example I was trying to verify the filter function 3 db point after filtering a channel with LPF and
cannot make any measurements, cursor, or left hand column standard measurements, like Pk-Pk
on the math waveform, etc..

I tried cursor measurement, it only works on the 4 primary channels. You can do a pk-pk thru a contortion
of setting source channel to same scaling as math channel, then move the cursors around. But what you really
are doing is measuring the source channel screen plot.


Another suggestion for Left hand standard measurements, a db Pk-Pk, Vavg, Vrms measurement referenced to 1 V.

Regards, Dana.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on July 18, 2015, 08:38:33 pm
I have a DS2000 so it might be different:

If you are referring to cursors then in the menu under source it should display math.

If you are referring to the menu on the left after pressing the upper left menu button, if you press the math button it changes to the match channel.

Edit: If you are referring to the measure button, then there is a source that can be changed to math.

But I don't know how different the DS1000 series are on that aspect.

Edit: manual for your scope, look at chapter 6:
http://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf (http://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf)

Even on the display all measurements picture in page 138 (6-28) it shows all 4 channels plus the math channel
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: danadak on July 18, 2015, 09:08:52 pm
Feeling stupid, math channel is supported for virtually all measurements.

Old age taking its toll.

Thanks, Dana.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Scottjd on July 28, 2015, 09:28:01 am
I wasn't aware of the 04.03.SP1 until now. I'll have to update later today.
I wanted to share an interesting message I received and happened to capture when recording a video.
I provided the screen shot, the erro was "BW option outdated" and this came from 04.03
I was curious if I updated each option separate if it would still change the name of my DS1054Z, and it did. So worried about warranty I also wanted to know if I uninstalled all of it would go back to the original name, and it did.
But I got this error the first time I ran the syst:opt:uninst.
I had to run the command a second time to get the confirmation message in the scope LCD stating all option were uninstalled. I found it amusing that my remaining trial time came back after the uninstall.

So BW is still in what I thought was the latest firmware until I read about SP1.
Maybe some parts of it are needed for the 50Mhz to 100Mhz option to work even though they don't offer it as an option and apparently it's outdated also.
So if it's outdated does that mean maybe the scope is not really getting the 100Mhz update option when people apply it?

Im  curious so I may have to redo my steps after the 04.03.SP1 update and see if it still,shows the outdated message. Originally I was thinking if I apply individual options without the 500uV then it would keep the name the same if I didn't use the update all to generate the key. But I forgot the BW option is not officially offered and I think that's why the name changed.

Is it recommended to remove options before doing a firmware update and then apply them after the update, or can the firmware update be ran even with a non officially supported option applied?
Sorry if this has been asked before, I've only had it a week and it's my first scope.
Thanks.....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on July 28, 2015, 09:39:52 am
I updated to 04.03.SP1 (on an MSO1104Z-S) with all unofficial updates still installed. All went fine and the options were still there afterwards.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 28, 2015, 12:14:14 pm
I wanted to share an interesting message I received and happened to capture when recording a video.
I provided the screen shot, the erro was "BW option outdated" and this came from 04.03

I can't quite make it out on the screenshot you posted, but the message seems to refer to "BT option" or "BF option", not "BW". I don't think this has anything to do with bandwidth. But I can't think of a plausible meaning for "BT" or "BF" at the moment either...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on July 28, 2015, 12:57:11 pm
Are they the messages for when the Trial period has ended?

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: cs.dk on July 28, 2015, 01:53:15 pm
Found 3 messages in firmware 04.03.SP1:

Record option outdated!
Decode option outdated!
BW option outdated!

Peter

I'm running 04.03.SP1, and all my options are still there.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: micromouse_man on July 28, 2015, 03:12:13 pm
My DS1054Z had 04.03 and had no problem updating the options, I then updated to 04.03 SP1 and all seems OK, I did have the thing with the self calibration failing once but it worked on the second go, when did the error get displayed?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 29, 2015, 03:00:21 am
I wanted to share an interesting message I received and happened to capture when recording a video.
I provided the screen shot, the erro was "BW option outdated" and this came from 04.03[\quote]
What were you doing to get the error?  Can you reproduce it and get a screen capture from the scope?
Quote
So BW is still in what I thought was the latest firmware until I read about SP1.
What did you read and where?
Quote
Maybe some parts of it are needed for the 50Mhz to 100Mhz option to work even though they don't offer it as an option and apparently it's outdated also.
So if it's outdated does that mean maybe the scope is not really getting the 100Mhz update option when people apply it?
Rigol does offer BW as an option.  You purchase the desired model:  DS1054Z, DS1074Z or DS1104Z.
It has only been in one of the latest firmware versions that bandwidth showed up on the options page.  See my original options page below.
If you want to see how the BW is implemented watch Dave's EEVblog #675 - How To Reverse Engineer A Rigol DS1054Z.  (Near the end.)
Quote
Im  curious so I may have to redo my steps after the 04.03.SP1 update and see if it still,shows the outdated message. Originally I was thinking if I apply individual options without the 500uV then it would keep the name the same if I didn't use the update all to generate the key. But I forgot the BW option is not officially offered and I think that's why the name changed.

Is it recommended to remove options before doing a firmware update and then apply them after the update, or can the firmware update be ran even with a non officially supported option applied?
I have the DS1074Z version that I added all the options except the 500uV/div.  Since then I've updated the firmware 6 times without removing any options before the updates.  I have not had problems with the self-calibration either.  However, I've only done the self-cal after using the scope for more than a hour.  I'm thinking people aren't allowing their scope to warm up long enough before doing the calibration.


Found 3 messages in firmware 04.03.SP1:

Record option outdated!
Decode option outdated!
BW option outdated!
How are you seeing these messages?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: seavan on July 29, 2015, 02:40:36 pm
MarkF, mine shows exactly same options list plus 100MHz Official.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 29, 2015, 07:47:11 pm
MarkF, mine shows exactly same options list plus 100MHz Official.
Mine shows the 100MHz option now too.  The list was expanded as part of one of the latest firmware versions.  That screenshot was from firmware version 00.02.00.SP1 in Feb 2014.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tjnash on July 30, 2015, 09:04:50 pm
I'd like to get a copy of the coupon code too, if available.  Could someone PM it me, please?

Thanks! Tim
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Scottjd on July 31, 2015, 01:11:53 pm
I'd like to get a copy of the coupon code too, if available.  Could someone PM it me, please?

Thanks! Tim

PM sent
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Scottjd on July 31, 2015, 01:20:06 pm

Q:What were you doing to get the error?  Can you reproduce it and get a screen capture from the scope?

A:Yes, after uninstalling the options using a telnet command.
I'm not able to get a screen dump since it only flashes up on the scope screen for a second. Just like the connected to net message or USB key active message.

Q:So BW is still in what I thought was the latest firmware until I read about SP1.
What did you read and where?

A:About 70 post back in this same read. I didn't book mark it so I can't give exact page.

Note:
I did do the upgrade win options enabled, no issues I have the DS1054Z. Thanks to all that replied to that question about the upgrade.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mmprestine on July 31, 2015, 01:55:07 pm
Looking to place an order, could someone kindly PM the coupon code.
Regards,
Matt
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Scottjd on July 31, 2015, 02:39:04 pm
Looking to place an order, could someone kindly PM the coupon code.
Regards,
Matt
PM sent
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on July 31, 2015, 04:11:16 pm
pls, what the heck is a "coupon code" ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on July 31, 2015, 04:25:32 pm
Dear Newbies, please stop asking for the tequipment coupon code here.  When you place your order, use the tequipment chat to ask for the code.

Or, if you have to place your order at 2AM, you can try asking in the correct thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-members-discount-at-tequipment/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-members-discount-at-tequipment/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on July 31, 2015, 04:33:41 pm
Dear "Super Contributor"

Did u read and understand my question ? I don't think so
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on July 31, 2015, 04:37:41 pm
Dear "Contributor"

He wasn't responding to you, obviously

But I am:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/)

Sorry couldn't help it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on July 31, 2015, 05:12:48 pm
It might have been useful for both Fennec and "the newbies" to read the first post in this thread, where a number of common questions about the DS1054Z are answered. These include how to obtain the TEquipment discount.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBloke on July 31, 2015, 06:16:38 pm
Hi guys

First post here.  I'm very new to EE tinkering.  I recently started playing with Arduino and RasPi, and I have a couple of UNI-T devices (UT61E DMM and their UT325 thermocouple logger).

I just bought my first ever scope, the DS1054Z.  I should get it tomorrow (paid extra for Saturday delivery!)

But I've just realised I might have possibly made a bit of a mistake.  I really wanted a 'PC' scope, ie one I could control from the PC.  A lot of the sampling I will do will need to end up as PC screenshots, and anyway I'm a software/developer type guy - I'm most comfortable on the computer by far.

I thought I knew what the UltraScope software looked like, because I watched this video showing UltraScope, from Rigol UK: this video from Rigol UK (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaMgSFGgrXI)

But I've now realised that that software is only for E, B, CA and D scopes. Not Z!   Z has different software, and after I scanned through Dave's full YouTube review (which I'd not yet seen fully) and right at the end he goes on a massive tirade about how the PC software 'sucks arse' etc :)   Seems like it has no remote front panel capability for example, and lots of annoyances.

So maybe I should have researched a bit better :)  Though the DS1054Z was already way more than I had planned to spend on a scope (I originally thought I might buy one of those £50 Chinese USB scopes, until I read more about them on EEVBlog.  Then I thought about the PicoScopes, but the DS1054Z seemed so overwhelmingly better in all respects I thought I should stretch my money and get that.  Anyway, my point is that probably there isn't a scope that I could have bought for £280 or less that would be way better for PC connectivity than the DS1054Z?  And if it was it definitely wouldn't have all the features of the DS1054Z.

Anyway, I've bought it now.  So my main question is - do Dave's comments from the January review still apply, or have there been any updates to UltraScope for the DS1054Z in the meantime?  Maybe it's a bit better now?  Does it provide remote front panel access, like I saw the software for the E, B, CA and D scopes?

Secondly, what third party software is available?  I did already see in this thread (or maybe another one) some software that could do long duration wave capture or something similar. 

Could anyone be so kind as to let me know if there's any other software I should know about for the DS1054Z?  Anything I should definitely use as well as/instead of Ultrascope?

I don't mind if I connect via USB or LAN, either is possible for me. 

I'm sure this is answered in many places - I have done some searching and reading but it's quite hard to find it in this huge thread so I hoped maybe someone could quickly point me in the right direction

Thanks in advance!

PS. Once I get it I will definitely be attempting the FW hacks/upgrades to get 100mhz and hopefully unlock other features as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBloke on July 31, 2015, 09:30:08 pm
As a quick follow-up to my post, I have found two bits of third party software:

http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/)
https://hackaday.io/project/5807-driverless-rigol-ds1054z-screen-capture-over-lan (https://hackaday.io/project/5807-driverless-rigol-ds1054z-screen-capture-over-lan)

If there's any others that I've not been able to find and that anyone could point me to, I'd be most grateful.   Also be good to know if UltraScope for the DS1054Z is still just as bad as Dave talked about 6 months ago, or if it's improved at all.  Though I suppose I'll find out for myself tomorrow anyway :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 31, 2015, 11:01:26 pm
@TheBloke:

For simple remote control of the scope directly, installing/uninstalling option codes etc. using SCPI commands, telnet over the LAN is the easiest way I've found. But of course you don't get a pretty picture on your computer, just easy communications with SCPI commands. 

The software here:

http://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/ (http://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/)

gives you a full GUI with controls, and live waveform display and is pretty fast for saving screenshots, etc. but it doesn't (yet?) have a facility for entering arbitrary SCPI commands (although it works by sending the appropriate commands to the scope).

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on August 01, 2015, 12:27:39 am
Hi guys

First post here.  I'm very new to EE tinkering.  I recently started playing with Arduino and RasPi, and I have a couple of UNI-T devices (UT61E DMM and their UT325 thermocouple logger).

I just bought my first ever scope, the DS1054Z.  I should get it tomorrow (paid extra for Saturday delivery!)

But I've just realised I might have possibly made a bit of a mistake.  I really wanted a 'PC' scope, ie one I could control from the PC.  A lot of the sampling I will do will need to end up as PC screenshots, and anyway I'm a software/developer type guy - I'm most comfortable on the computer by far.


UT61E is not bad despite protestations otherwise, only negative when I've used it for my use is the burden voltage, but seriously I wouldn't worry about that if you're a new EE. I don't know about the thermocouple logger.

DS1054Z, unbelievable value for money. You really don't want a PC scope. The only way to know is to try it I suppose, but apart from a really limited number of use cases, it's really difficult to justify a PC scope over a "proper" scope one you've used them. It's mostly about the immediacy of the user interface. As an allegory, consider trying to use your PC to drive your car. There's no steering wheel, the response time is lousy, you have to go into a menu to turn the indicator on, you get my drift. Taking screenshots, although useful, is secondary to any scope's main purpose. Taking screen shots is simple enough on the DS1000Z series, either on the USB stick or with software. I am not sure how a PC scope would be better in any way.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBloke on August 01, 2015, 04:07:08 pm
Thanks very much Howard and alsetalokin!

Howard, thanks, that all makes sense - and it's nice to have my purchase validated, of course :) 

alseta, thank you, I hadn't seen DSRemote before.  It looks excellent, with just one minor inconvenience - it looks from that page that it's Linux only at the moment?  I'm running Windows as my primary platform right now.  But I see it's written in QT, so perhaps it might compile on Windows.  At least the app part of it, not the driver - and I'd guess it wouldn't know how to interface with the Rigol driver without specific support, which it won't have unless it was targetted for Windows.  Perhaps LAN connect would work.

Has anyone heard any discussion of DSRemote being compiled and run on Windows?  If not is no big deal, I have a Raspberry Pi here, and/or I can easily set up a Linux VM.

Anyway I'm really glad to have the scope setup and am enjoying fiddling with it already-  even though I don't know a huge amount what I'm doing! :)  I did watch Dave's entire one hour feature review, as well as about 2 hours of general "How to use an oscilloscope" type YouTube videos (mostly from mjlorton)

I've already done the bandwidth hack/feature upgrade, which is awesome :)  No idea if I'll ever need 100mhz or half the features, but I can definitely imagine wanting to be able to triger/decode I2C, and the Record/Playback thing also sounds very helpful.  Anyway, regardless of whether I use them, the mere ability to get them for free makes me feel good :D

I'm going to have loads of questions but I'll try and research some myself before bombarding you all.  Thanks again for your help and all the great info on the forum!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on August 01, 2015, 06:26:45 pm
Heh... sorry, we've been using Ubuntu Linux here for so long that I tend to forget that not everyone has Linux at their fingertips. May I suggest that you try a dual-boot installation of Ubuntu (or some other modern Linux distro) next to your Windows, so that you can try it painlessly?

I fired MicroShaft long ago and only keep it around on one laptop for controlling my telescope and astronomical cameras. I even do the astrophoto processing on Linux these days, running a Windows version of PixInsight under WINE on the Linux boxen -- along with gimp, of course.


Also, on the DSRemote webpage you'll find the contact information for the developer, and he is very responsive to bug reports. Email him and ask about a Windows version!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on August 01, 2015, 07:02:39 pm
@TheBloke

From earlier in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg675845/#msg675845 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg675845/#msg675845)

I modified it because my DS2000 doesn't support telnet, so I used alex.forencich's vxi11

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/python-based-instrument-control/msg676772/#msg676772 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/python-based-instrument-control/msg676772/#msg676772)

Also you have:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/free-ds6000ds1000z-software/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/free-ds6000ds1000z-software/)

That has source etc, but it is Linux, that said you could probably port it to Windows.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on August 01, 2015, 08:58:00 pm
Thanks very much Howard and alsetalokin!

Howard, thanks, that all makes sense - and it's nice to have my purchase validated, of course :) 

alseta, thank you, I hadn't seen DSRemote before.  It looks excellent, with just one minor inconvenience - it looks from that page that it's Linux only at the moment?  I'm running Windows as my primary platform right now.  But I see it's written in QT, so perhaps it might compile on Windows.  At least the app part of it, not the driver - and I'd guess it wouldn't know how to interface with the Rigol driver without specific support, which it won't have unless it was targetted for Windows.  Perhaps LAN connect would work.

Has anyone heard any discussion of DSRemote being compiled and run on Windows?  If not is no big deal, I have a Raspberry Pi here, and/or I can easily set up a Linux VM.

Anyway I'm really glad to have the scope setup and am enjoying fiddling with it already-  even though I don't know a huge amount what I'm doing! :)  I did watch Dave's entire one hour feature review, as well as about 2 hours of general "How to use an oscilloscope" type YouTube videos (mostly from mjlorton)

Unless you have a special project, I think you'll use the scope directly and not want to operate it remotely.

I've written many QT programs and if you can get it compiled on Windows or find a Windows executable, it should be totally transparent whether you're running it on Linux or a Windows system.  After all that's the main purpose of QT (to be cross platform compatible).  If you have trouble, I may be able to make time to compile it for you.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBloke on August 01, 2015, 10:32:11 pm
Thanks again everyone!

I've done a fair bit more experimenting.  I have to say the PC side of the Rigol does appear to be a major weak link.  Well, I don't know how other scopes compare :)  But certainly it seems pretty weak on this scope.

To answer my earlier question, UltraScope has been updated since Dave installed it - according to what he showed on screen in his January video, he installed version 03, and it's now 05 on the website.  But unsurprisingly, there's no huge difference - I guess maybe some bugfixes, but nothing seemingly major.  Still no control panel and lots of obvious visual/UI bugs and plenty of missing features.

As a quick example of an egregious bug - on first connect it always shows the probe as being X1.  Fortunately it doesn't actually tell the scope to change its X10 setting to X1, and if you then set the probe to X10 in UltraScope you will be in sync again and future changes will work OK.  Not the end of the world, just struck me as an example of a bug that should have been spotted in 30 seconds if anyone at Rigol had thought to QA their PC software :) 

I've also had some significant problems with the LAN connection.  I got it configured on the scope fine, but then UltraSigma couldn't find it or connect to it until I rebooted the scope, even though it said it was configured and I could ping it.  Far more annoyingly, I've now had the scope hard crash a total of four times, always while doing LAN related stuff.  Once it happened when I was trying things in the Network menu.  The other three times, it's happened while I have been connecting to the scope from external tools: twice with UltraScope, once from a third party tool, the LabView software released by Alessandro.  In all cases, the scope just stops responding to new commands.  It's still showing a waveform, and all lights are on, but no button or dial does anything, and the PC app connected to it will freeze or hang or show an error.

So that's a bit worrying, and I guess maybe I should go back to USB - it didn't happen when I was connecting with UltraScope via USB.

I'm currently in the process of installing a new KUbuntu VM in VMWare Workstation, so I can try out DSRemote.  Maybe I'll get a bit further with that - certainly its UI looks a bit more complete than the others. 

Anyway, I don't mean to sound down - the scope itself is clearly awesome, and I'm sure I'll find that I don't need tight PC control or fast screen updates.  It's no hardship leaning over and using the scope interface.   And I'm sure I'll find I can export the data I need.  The only reason I'm concerned at all is because the data I will mostly want to look at, in the short term at least, will be long running captures, lasting tens of seconds or a couple of minutes, with no repeating data.  In other words, several screens of data, which I had hoped I could easily get exported as a single wide image and then a corresponding CSV data table.  I'm sure the latter is possible, but for the former I'm wondering if I need to simply take multiple screen shots as I scroll across a recorded capture on the device. 

I'm sure I'll figure it out.  The Labview-based software by Alessandro did look promising, with its Long Wave Capture mode, but when I tried it that was one of the times the scope hard crashed (and the PC app.  I'll try that again, maybe over USB next time, and contact Alessandro the author if it persists.

Unless you have a special project, I think you'll use the scope directly and not want to operate it remotely.

In this case, I imagine yes - as there's no complete control panel option available for the DS1054Z it seems (I don't think DSRemote is complete, though it does have lots of options.) 

But had there been a complete option - as the software for the DS1052E seems to be - then I can't imagine why I'd use the scope rather than the PC.  I'd much rather look at the UI on a 1920x1200 screen and click through menus with a mouse, than press buttons on a physical device that I have to lean over to reach.   Not that the front panel of the DS1054Z is hard to use - in fact it seems like a pretty decent UI - or that leaning over is hard! :)  Just, with full remote control, I can't see why it wouldn't always be quicker to use it via a PC.  At worst it would be no slower, but at best it would be a lot quicker - eg where on a physical UI I have to turn a dial to change from <high value> to <low value> and with mouse/keyboard I can click and then type.  And just in general, I feel mouse/keyboard would be quicker than using physical buttons.  Not to mention it enables having the scope much further away than I would otherwise, if there's no need to easily read the screen and physically press buttons.

But anyway that's all moot because the DS1054Z doesn't have that.  And that's fine.  I can see now that it's definitely better to have a sophisticated scope without decent PC access, than a good PC interface on a rudimentary scope, so I'm certainly glad I got the Rigol.

I've written many QT programs and if you can get it compiled on Windows or find a Windows executable, it should be totally transparent whether you're running it on Linux or a Windows system.  After all that's the main purpose of QT (to be cross platform compatible).  If you have trouble, I may be able to make time to compile it for you.

Thanks very much for the offer.  I've done a bit of QT development and compiling before, so I should be OK in theory.  My concern was that there might be platform-specific code in there which wouldn't compile on Windows.  I know in theory QT is meant to prevent that, but in practice I suspect that's not always the case - especially in any software that connects directly to hardware.  DSRemote supports USB connection via a Linux-specific USB driver.  I would suspect it therefore includes headers or makes system calls that can't compile on Windows.  So given it appears to have been targettd at Linux exclusively, I'd be surprised if it compiled immediately on Windows (or OSX.)  But it might just be a case of commenting out those references, or there might be a make variable to exclude anything USB-related from the build.

For now I'll just use it via Linux as I can do that fairly easily via VM and/or Raspberry Pi.  But if I find the software useful I might have a go at compiling it on Windows at a later point.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBloke on August 02, 2015, 12:10:30 am
Just a quick update to say I've got DSRemote running on my Linux VM and it definitely seems to be the best of the available apps.

Still very basic and missing the vast majority of available features, but it is at least usable and seems stable :)  And it seems capable of refreshing the screen much faster than UltraScope - I have it set down to 100ms (default is 500ms) refresh, and I think it's doing that (hard to be certain right now with the basic test wave I have on screen.)

And as it's open source it could be extended by anyone, perhaps even myself.  I do like the way it outputs the SCPI commands to console, so I can immediately see how I could manually run various commands myself.

Best of all - I'm using it over LAN but it hasn't crashed yet, and more importantly nor has my scope while I've been using it :)   (Actually not quite true on the former; the first time I ran it it didn't work at all, throwing an error about unrecognised command or something like that, and not responding to any input.  That first time I ran it I had my in Trigger Delayed mode, which isn't implemented by the app, so it probably didn't understand the response it got from the scope and didn't handle that very well.  I switched the scope out into basic Edge trigger and then the app ran.)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vk6zgo on August 02, 2015, 05:36:15 am
It is interesting how manufacturers get things wrong on a regular basis.

At my last work,the IFR Spectrum Analyser had extensive facilties available to remotely adjust settings,etc via an old style serial port,but it was all one way!

The only way you could get a "screenshot" was to save to a floppy drive!

Flabbergasted,I searched through the book (one complete volume devoted to "Computer Interfacing")
But no!---back to your floppy!!

It wasn't old equipment----- this thing was made well into the age of USB.

The PC downstairs had a floppy drive,but the one upstairs where I wanted to put the screenshots didn't.

So the routine became:-

Save a bunch of screenshots to a floppy.

Put the floppy in the downstairs PC,save to a USB thumb drive.

Go upstairs & stick the USB drive into that PC.

At least it was good exercise!! ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 02, 2015, 11:15:05 am
Why not buy a USB floppy disk drive? It costs only 5 EUR in China these days :)

http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/USB-External-Portable-1-44MB-3-5-Slim-Floppy-Disc-Disk-Drive-Windows7-Win7-DE-/221811337339?hash=item33a4fc687b (http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/USB-External-Portable-1-44MB-3-5-Slim-Floppy-Disc-Disk-Drive-Windows7-Win7-DE-/221811337339?hash=item33a4fc687b)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vk6zgo on August 02, 2015, 12:23:24 pm
They were about $35 in those days--carrying it upstairs was free!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBloke on August 02, 2015, 04:00:23 pm
Hey guys, I have a probably-newbish question.  One I can't seem to figure out on my own with the manual.

I don't fully understand how the DS1054Z is setting Samples/second and MPts based on timebase.

I do understand that:
That all makes sense, but then I can't understand many of the actual numbers the scope displays at different timebases.

I've gone through a range of timebases and written down the Sample/second and MPts in use.  Here's the data.  Note that my DS1054Z has been hacked to enable 100Mhz, 24Mpts, and all other usable options (with the DSER code).  All tests were done using only Channel 1, connected to the scope's internal square wave test signal, and with a simple Edge trigger active at 1.25V.

First, with Mem Depth manually set to 24Mpts:
Second, with Mem Depth at the default of AUTO.  Rows in red have a different (and lower) sample rate than the same timebase above, ie the sample rate lowers in AUTO versus manually setting 24Mpts.  Rows in black were unchanged, ie no improvement in sample rate from manually setting Mpts higher.

So I can't figure out the patterns here.  In particular, here's what I don't understand:

Apologies if this is a very basic question.  I have read the manual for the part where it talks about timebase but can't figure it out yet. 


Note that I am mostly asking out of a general, academic desire to understand the workings of the scope - I don't think this is necessarily going to cause me any great problems.


That said, it would be good to know whether I should just set Mem Depth manually to 24Mpts to ensure I get the best possible sample rate at all times, or whether there's any disadvantage to doing that.  I still don't quite understand why one would use AUTO when it sometimes lowers sample rate - but maybe there's some disadvantage to having the Mem Depth higher than necessary, which I don't yet see.


Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on August 02, 2015, 06:15:13 pm
This thread might provide some insight as to why the device behaves as it does:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/some-important-points-to-remember-when-evaluating-waveform-update-rates/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/some-important-points-to-remember-when-evaluating-waveform-update-rates/)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on August 02, 2015, 06:59:48 pm
@TheBloke

DSO's share the capture system between channels. First, you noticed and charted your results that get's you a two thumbs up,  :-+ :-+. Try checking your numbers with only Channel 1 on. If you like try some of these combinations 1+2 on 1and3 on. To save time just set the highest sample rate.

You did good, it takes time to build trust in equipment and these type of observations will serve you well in the long run.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on August 03, 2015, 03:43:19 am
Why not buy a USB floppy disk drive? It costs only 5 EUR in China these days :)

Because u need floppys too and have to plug it from scope to PC, to scope, to pc... For what ? A 1GB-stick cost the same, ist much smaller and don't need this crappy slow floppys.

Maybe someone build in a Wifi module like an ESP8266.

http://www.adafruit.com/search?q=ESP8266&b=1 (http://www.adafruit.com/search?q=ESP8266&b=1)

But I do not really know for what it should be good for.  For this 3 Pix in a year ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vk6zgo on August 03, 2015, 04:24:44 am
Why not buy a USB floppy disk drive? It costs only 5 EUR in China these days :)

Because u need floppys too and have to plug it from scope to PC, to scope, to pc... For what ? A 1GB-stick cost the same, ist much smaller and don't need this crappy slow floppys.

Maybe someone build in a Wifi module like an ESP8266.

http://www.adafruit.com/search?q=ESP8266&b=1 (http://www.adafruit.com/search?q=ESP8266&b=1)

But I do not really know for what it should be good for.  For this 3 Pix in a year ?

I don't think you know the (off-topic) back story here:-

About 8 posts back,I was commenting,in passing,on the IFR Spectrum analyser I had to use a few years ago.
It had lots of ways to remotely control it from a PC,but the only way to get screenshots off it was by using a floppy.

Unfortunately the PC I wanted to put the screenshots on didn't have a floppy drive,so I had to do it in a more indirect manner.

I was retuning a lot of RF Amplifiers at the time,so it was more like 10-12 Pix per day!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBloke on August 03, 2015, 04:36:32 pm


Quote from: dadler on Yesterday at 19:15:13 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=36920.msg722450#msg722450)
This thread might provide some insight as to why the device behaves as it does:

>https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/some-important-points-to-remember-when-evaluating-waveform-update-rates/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/some-important-points-to-remember-when-evaluating-waveform-update-rates/)



Thanks, reading through that now.


Quote from: pickle9000 on Yesterday at 19:59:48 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=36920.msg722467#msg722467)
@TheBloke

DSO's share the capture system between channels. First, you noticed and charted your results that get's you a two thumbs up,  :-+ :-+ . Try checking your numbers with only Channel 1 on. If you like try some of these combinations 1+2 on 1and3 on. To save time just set the highest sample rate.

You did good, it takes time to build trust in equipment and these type of observations will serve you well in the long run.


Thanks!

You're right that multi channel definitely has a  big effect. But all my tests are with one channel only.

I've done a bit more testing and experimenting but still can't figure out how it automatically decides many of the sample and Mpts settings.  It doesn't matter at all for the work I'm doing, I just like to understand how these things work if possible :)

One thing that does affect me though, and I'm still curious to know:  should I leave Mem Depth on Auto, or should I set it to the maximum 24Mpts?  Or should I sometimes have Auto, sometimes set 24?

I've now read through the whole manual, and it doesn't really help on this question.  I don't even understand why the Mem Depth setting is there - why would the user ever want to use less than the maximum available Mpts?   So my first reaction is that I would always want to set it to 24Mpts, especially as Auto doesn't seem to ever use 24 automatically (another thing I don't understand.) 

But maybe there's some disadvantage to using more Mpts than is required?   Perhaps it slows the scope down?  If anyone knows I'd be most grateful!

For now I've put it back on Auto, because sample rate isn't that important for the testing I'm doing at the moment, so I don't want to run any risk of there being issues/disadvantages with using maximum Mpts until I know more about it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mv on August 03, 2015, 05:00:37 pm
One thing that does affect me though, and I'm still curious to know:  should I leave Mem Depth on Auto, or should I set it to the maximum 24Mpts?  Or should I sometimes have Auto, sometimes set 24?

I've now read through the whole manual, and it doesn't really help on this question.  I don't even understand why the Mem Depth setting is there - why would the user ever want to use less than the maximum available Mpts?   So my first reaction is that I would always want to set it to 24Mpts, especially as Auto doesn't seem to ever use 24 automatically (another thing I don't understand.) 

But maybe there's some disadvantage to using more Mpts than is required?   Perhaps it slows the scope down?  If anyone knows I'd be most grateful!

I think that there are more people that are confused by this (including me). Could someone explain the details behind this?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on August 03, 2015, 05:35:50 pm
A possible answer could be that allways using the maximum memory lowers the waveform update rate.
I haven't done it myself but you can do this by connecting one inputchannel with the trigger output at the back of the scope.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheBloke on August 03, 2015, 05:51:09 pm


Quote from: Karel
A possible answer could be that allways using the maximum memory lowers the waveform update rate.
I haven't done it myself but you can do this by connecting one inputchannel with the trigger output at the back of the scope.

What is the waveform update rate exactly?  Is that different to the Sample/second rate that it captures at (ie the maximum of 1GSa/s.)

Regarding the external trigger output, the manual says this:

Quote from: DS1054Z manual, 5-37
A signal which reflects the current oscilloscope capture rate can be output from
[Trigger Out] connector each time a trigger is generated by the oscilloscope. If this
signal is connected to a waveform display device to measure the frequency, the
measurement result is equal to the current capture rate.

When I read that I assumed "current oscilloscope capture rate" meant the Sample/second rate, ie maximum 1GSa/s.  But is it something different, like what you are talking about the - waveform update rate?

If you are talking about the main Sample/S rate, then Mpts does affect the Sample rate - that's what I first posted about, that in Auto it never uses 24 Mpts and when you manually select 24 Mpts, it sometimes results in getting a higher sample rate than in Auto.  I posted two sets of data, with Mem Depth = Auto and with Mem Depth = 24.  In the 24Mpts case, there were 6 or 7 cases where the sample rate was higher than in Auto.

That still doesn't make sense to me though, because a) why does Auto not use the full 24Mpts available - why does it choose to lower the sample rate instead of increasing the Mem Depth  and b) that means that, for Sample/s alone, it's always best to keep Mem Depth on 24 Mpts.  So why have the option at all?  Why not just always set it to the maximum 24Mpts (or 12 without the option) to ensure Sample/s is always the highest it can be?

It seems there must be some disadvantage to having Mpts higher, which would explain why the Mem Depth setting is there, but I'm not sure what that is.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dadler on August 03, 2015, 07:36:14 pm
Waveform update rate is not the same thing as the sample rate.

Scopes are blind most of the time, this is related to the waveform update rate.

Did you read that thread I linked above? It is a bit confusing and there is some arguing, but the essential idea is there.

Here is a good post:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064)

Here is another link with a graphic:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-simple-technique-to-measure-waveform-update-rates-on-dsos-with-no-trigger-out/180/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-simple-technique-to-measure-waveform-update-rates-on-dsos-with-no-trigger-out/180/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 03, 2015, 08:10:00 pm
Can you rudimentary compare it with feeding a 50Hz TV signal to an LCD flat screen, where the LCD back panel physically either supports 50Hz or 100Hz, but where the software and the scaler in the TV uses special techniques to increase the refresh rate up to 200-600 Hz? :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on August 03, 2015, 08:34:41 pm
Can you rudimentary compare it with feeding a 50Hz TV signal to an LCD flat screen, where the LCD back panel physically either supports 50Hz or 100Hz, but where the software and the scaler in the TV uses special techniques to increase the refresh rate up to 200-600 Hz? :)

Waveform update rate is a simulation of the glowing phosphor on and analog scope tube. It gives a feeling for how unstable or for catching glitch like events. If you see the glow the inclination is to try and see whats there in more detail, how you adjust it out  (if possible) depends on signal.

Memory depth is described in the Rigol manual 4-6. Also have a close look at 5-3 Pre-trigger and delay trigger even if you have minimal memory available you can use this to grab what you need. Trigger skills are basic to scope operation and should not be overlooked.

The autoset memory depth could be a compromise, hardware limitation, lack of programming initiative (lazy programmer) and so on. As with any bit of gear it's important to know it's limits but your logic skills can get you a useful and get you out of a hard spot. Not perfect but good enough.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 03, 2015, 11:06:07 pm
Just a quick update to say I've got DSRemote running on my Linux VM and it definitely seems to be the best of the available apps.

Thanks for the update on your experience thus far. I haven't yet tried the PC side of the 1054Z, so it's interesting to see what you've encountered.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 04, 2015, 09:23:40 am
How come some Tektronix scopes can do 1 Million waveform/s update rates on all memory depths?

They do this in hardware, while others do it in software?

Why does Rigol not just throw in an extra FPGA for that waveform update part?

I understand they do it in software on the DS1000Z series, but at least in the DS2000A and DS4000 series they could try to hit higher barriers :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: H.O on August 04, 2015, 04:44:48 pm
Quote
How come some Tektronix scopes can do 1 Million waveform/s update rates on all memory depths?
I don't know which scopes you're talking about but really, it's all about how long it takes to fill the selected amount of memory at the selected sample rate (and then the scopes processing time in between each trigger event)

If the scope(s) you're talking about really does achieve 1Million waveforms/s update rate at ANY memory depth then they either got an incredibly high sample rate or pretty low amount of sample memory.

For example, if your sample rate is 1Gsps and you select a memory depth of 2500pts, then it takes 2.5us to fill that memory. There can not be more than 400 000 waveform updates per second. In order to achieve 1million updates per second with that memory depth (2500pts) the scope (or its user) must select a sample rate of at least 2.5Gsps.

If you select a memory depth of 100kpts and you expect a waveform update rate of 1Million waveforms per second then your sample rate needs to be 100Gsps.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 05, 2015, 07:09:01 am
I read that in document where they compared 2 scopes against each other. In this document, there was a table with 3 columns and several rows, and the waveform update rate was displayed in the second and third column for scope A and scope B. Each row entry for scope A always listed 1M wfm/sec, while the waveform update rate for scope B dropped further and further going down in the rows. I can not find that document anymore unfortunately. Most likely the table was made for a comparison of two scopes with a limited max. memory depth.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: H.O on August 05, 2015, 07:35:04 am
Was it perhaps Agilents Oscilloscope Waveform Update Rate Determines Probability of Capturing Elusive Events (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-7885EN.pdf)?

EDIT: I guess it was since you posted a link to the "same" (but with the Keysight logo) document in another thread.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 07, 2015, 01:39:46 am
No, it was another document. Maybe it actually was a table on a website.
If I stumble on the table again, I will share it here for further reference and discussion :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jano on August 07, 2015, 04:46:30 am
Hi,

is latest  firmware/newest production models unlockable to 100MHz etc... ??? has anyone tried?
thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 07, 2015, 06:05:09 pm
is latest  firmware/newest production models unlockable to 100MHz etc... ??? has anyone tried?
thanks!

Mine arrived with firmware 04.03 and it worked fine. I have not tried 04.03.SP1, but others seem to be running fine with it. Give it a try and report back with your results.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: saelig on August 07, 2015, 08:34:58 pm
STOP PRESS! Rigol has authorized a price drop on their DS1074Z 70MHz scope  to $499 & DS1074Z-s (+AWG) down to $699 in case you need another 20MHz bandwidth....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on August 07, 2015, 08:50:14 pm
STOP PRESS! Rigol has authorized a price drop on their DS1074Z 70MHz scope  to $499 & DS1074Z-s (+AWG) down to $699 in case you need another 20MHz bandwidth....
I seem to recall there is another way to get those extra 20 (or 50) MHz... ;-)  But this lowers the entry price for the -S models, which is nice.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on August 08, 2015, 01:35:19 pm
Hey guys,
I don't fully understand how the DS1054Z is setting Samples/second and MPts based on timebase.

My idea about "Mem Depht", "Sample/second" and "MPts":

1) I think that the resolution of the ADC is only 8 bits.
2) There is a "high resolution mode" up to 12 Bits.

This could be done by sample multiple times within a "SampleTime" and build the Meanvalue.
So you can get out more bits.
I think, I could read it in the manual ...

LG Wolf
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on August 09, 2015, 06:13:36 pm
Hi,
1) are there any commands for the new function "filter"  in the new Firmware 00.04.03.01.05 = 00.04.03.SP1 ?

2) I cannot find Commands for select the graphics format.
Are there some commands?

3) Is there a newer version of the "DS100Z Series Programming Guide" (last is Sept.2014) ?

Thanks
Wolf
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on August 09, 2015, 08:40:43 pm
Hello Peter,
Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jano on August 12, 2015, 04:07:05 am
does 1054z firmware 00.04.03.01.05 unlockable?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on August 12, 2015, 04:19:36 am
does 1054z firmware 00.04.03.01.05 unlockable?

Really?  Too much trouble to even read this one page?  You've already been answered.

   READ!!! 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jano on August 12, 2015, 06:02:23 am
MarkF Thank You!  You are so smart!

why dont your read the page yourself more carefully!

Thanks Again!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on August 12, 2015, 01:56:54 pm
does 1054z firmware 00.04.03.01.05 unlockable?

Jano -- I would agree that page 110 of this thread does not contain an answer based on first-hand experience. But that question has been asked and answered several times in this thread. First one I could find is here:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/1530/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/1530/), and then it feels like the topic is recurring on every other page of the thread... So I can understand Mark's annoyance; this thread is more than long enough without the ever-recurring questions.

(The answer is "yes", by the way.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jano on August 12, 2015, 03:49:40 pm
to Ebastler

('thanks'  by the way)!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on August 12, 2015, 08:37:55 pm
Maybe a new thread should be opened for each Firmware version?

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on August 12, 2015, 11:58:09 pm
MarkF Thank You!  You are so smart!

why dont your read the page yourself more carefully!

Thanks Again!

unbelievable
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope - New SCPI-Commands for FILTER
Post by: ankerwolf on August 14, 2015, 08:07:37 pm
Hello,
here are the SCPI-Commands for the new function "FILTER":

"Filter" is new in FW 00.40.03.SP1 (00.40.03.01.05)

  :MATH:OPER FILT         // Operator: S.106: Select Math-Function Filter
  :MATH:DISP OFF          // Operation: ON | 1 | OFF | 0

  :MATH:FILT:TYPE?        // response: LPAS, HPAS, BPAS, BTR
  :MATH:FILT:TYPE BREJECT    // Bandsperre = BTRap = BREJECT
                         
  :MATH:FILT:LLIM?
  :MATH:FILT:ULIM?
  :MATH:FILT:LLIM 2000    // set to 2.0kHz
  :MATH:FILT:ULIM 9500    // set to 9.5kHz
                          // only in steps !!!
                           // W1 = LLIM = lower frequency limit
                          // W2 = ULIM = upper frequency limit


  :MATH:FILT:SOUR?            // does not work
  :MATH:FILT:SOUR CHAN1   // dose not work, S.107 ProgGuide

but it works for FFT:

  :MATH:FFT:SOUR?         // ok for FFT - wrong at S.107
  :MATH:FFT:SOUR CHAN1    // ok for FFT - wrong at S.107


Wolf
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: quantalume on August 20, 2015, 07:57:14 pm
Hi, in the case of single-shot triggering, is there a way to have the scope only record what happens after the trigger event, rather than splitting the memory half before and half after? As it is, half the memory is being wasted at times. Perhaps I shouldn't complain with 24M of memory.  :P
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nugglix on August 20, 2015, 08:17:27 pm
Hi, in the case of single-shot triggering, is there a way to have the scope only record what happens after the trigger event, rather than splitting the memory half before and half after? As it is, half the memory is being wasted at times. Perhaps I shouldn't complain with 24M of memory.  :P

What about moving the trigger point to the left w/ the horizontal controls?
Should do the trick, or not?

Cheers
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on August 20, 2015, 08:18:05 pm
You can move the trigger point to the left of the screen, which should remove any pre-trigger.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: quantalume on August 20, 2015, 09:05:18 pm

What about moving the trigger point to the left w/ the horizontal controls?
Should do the trick, or not?

Cheers

Yep, simple enough. Thanks. Only complaint at this point is that the trigger point keeps moving around a bit as I change the time base. Any way to anchor it to the left side? It would be nice if the horizontal position knob zeroed the trigger point to the center on the first click and to the left on the second click, or had a setting somewhere specifying whether zero is the center or the left.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on August 21, 2015, 02:35:36 am

What about moving the trigger point to the left w/ the horizontal controls?
Should do the trick, or not?

Cheers

Yep, simple enough. Thanks. Only complaint at this point is that the trigger point keeps moving around a bit as I change the time base. Any way to anchor it to the left side? It would be nice if the horizontal position knob zeroed the trigger point to the center on the first click and to the left on the second click, or had a setting somewhere specifying whether zero is the center or the left.

As you change the timebase, the trigger point remains at the same _time_ delay or advance wrt the center of the screen, you can tell this by looking at the "D" value in the very top box second from rightmost.  Hence the orange "T" trigger symbol moves as you change the timebase. Just set it manually wherever you want it before doing a single-shot capture. Is this terribly inconvenient?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: quantalume on August 21, 2015, 03:24:49 pm
Just set it manually wherever you want it before doing a single-shot capture. Is this terribly inconvenient?

It can be inconvenient at times. For example, if I don't know how long a pulse train is going to be, then I have to keep changing the time base and repositioning the trigger point. I've resigned myself to just sticking with the center of the screen as the trigger zero point, at least until I've learned more about the waveform under observation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MT on August 21, 2015, 06:54:26 pm
I was about to buy a 1054z but sadly to say i had a second thought because i come across the 1054 bug and wish list and the fact the input bandwith is dived among the channels but my problem is i dont need all the fancy bells and whistles, i happily trade RS232, SPI, maths etc, etc for increased bandwith/speed and simplicity.What i need is scope that do example 400Mhz, FFT, freq counting,PW and and who can do screen dumps in a suitable bitmap format for similarly amount of money and that's about it. I dont have the time or patience to read all the million posts about different scopes but with my requirements i'm i stuck with old secondhand analogs market or is there something new like this around?

Thanks for any info and your time regarding this!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on August 21, 2015, 07:15:25 pm
Just set it manually wherever you want it before doing a single-shot capture. Is this terribly inconvenient?

It can be inconvenient at times. For example, if I don't know how long a pulse train is going to be, then I have to keep changing the time base and repositioning the trigger point. I've resigned myself to just sticking with the center of the screen as the trigger zero point, at least until I've learned more about the waveform under observation.

Is there some kind of scope that acts differently? Don't we all do just exactly this when we are looking at a waveform for the first time?

Could you use the Rigol's advanced triggering features, like "nth edge" or "delayed" for example, to get more of what you want?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on August 21, 2015, 07:20:35 pm
I was about to buy a 1054z but sadly to say i had a second thought because i come across the 1054 bug and wish list and the fact the input bandwith is dived among the channels but my problem is i dont need all the fancy bells and whistles, i happily trade RS232, SPI, maths etc, etc for increased bandwith/speed and simplicity.What i need is scope that do example 400Mhz, FFT, freq counting,PW and and who can do screen dumps in a suitable bitmap format for similarly amount of money and that's about it. I dont have the time or patience to read all the million posts about different scopes but with my requirements i'm i stuck with old secondhand analogs market or is there something new like this around?

Thanks for any info and your time regarding this!

Well.... if you can find a 4-channel secondhand analog scope with 400 MHz bw that will do FFT, Frequency counting, pulse width and screendumps for 400 dollars, and comes with 4 probes... buy it, by all means!

Otherwise, get a Rigol 1054z, unlock it to 100 MHz and just don't use the features you don't want. Do you really need 400 MHz bandwidth, on your budget?

Is there an inexpensive DSO that does not "divide input bandwidth among the channels?"
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: egonotto on August 21, 2015, 08:12:54 pm
" analog scope with 400 MHz bw that will do FFT"

how schould an analog scope do FFT?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MT on August 21, 2015, 08:22:47 pm
Quote
alsetalokin4017
Well.... if you can find a 4-channel secondhand analog scope with 400 MHz bw that will do FFT, Frequency counting, pulse width and screendumps for 400 dollars, and comes with 4 probes... buy it, by all means!
I actually was about to do (old 1Ghz Lecroy for 300usd) but got distracted by Daves used-care-salesman approach in the end of the 1054z video! :)

Quote
Otherwise, get a Rigol 1054z, unlock it to 100 MHz and just don't use the features you don't want. Do you really need 400 MHz bandwidth, on your budget?
The hack is great dont get me wrong on this but that is not part of my scope request, 500Mhz is also fine as well as 1Ghz etc.

For instance i could tomorrow order a Rigol DS6102 for 7620 usd from my local supplier, but why on earth would i spend such a fortune just to look at high speed signals?
Is there a scope like box where i can attach a old PC screen to display the measured 477Mhz wave? Basically i dont need an oscope in traditional sense if you get my hint!

I need a Ghetto style high speed wave display! :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: quantalume on August 21, 2015, 09:14:47 pm

Is there some kind of scope that acts differently? Don't we all do just exactly this when we are looking at a waveform for the first time?


All analog scopes and the early digital scopes I remember used the left side of the screen as the trigger origin, unless you've explicitly set a delay.  To be honest, I don't have a lot of experience with modern DSOs.  I suppose my way of thinking is still rooted in the old analog storage paradigm, where you wouldn't want to throw away half of the screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Stupid Beard on August 21, 2015, 09:27:19 pm
I was about to buy a 1054z but sadly to say i had a second thought because i come across the 1054 bug and wish list and the fact the input bandwith is dived among the channels

Either you are using the wrong terminology or you're getting mixed up with the difference between sample rate and bandwidth. All 4 channels always have 100mhz of bandwidth (or 70, or 50 depending on model). It is the sample rate that gets divided and that happens only if you have the extra channels enabled.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vk6zgo on August 22, 2015, 03:55:14 am
" analog scope with 400 MHz bw that will do FFT"

how schould an analog scope do FFT?

A Tek 7000 series mainframe with a 7L12 Spectrum Analyser plugin could do better than an FFT.
Of course,you couldn't send it to a PC,or save it,other than with a digital camera.

You could probably get a 7000 series mainframe which could do the 400MHz as a normal 'scope,too!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on August 22, 2015, 04:15:47 am
" analog scope with 400 MHz bw that will do FFT"

how schould an analog scope do FFT?

My point exactly, since the OP said,
Quote
What i need is scope that do example 400Mhz, FFT, freq counting,PW and and who can do screen dumps in a suitable bitmap format for similarly amount of money and that's about it. I dont have the time or patience to read all the million posts about different scopes but with my requirements i'm i stuck with old secondhand analogs market or is there something new like this around?


I was about to buy a 1054z but sadly to say i had a second thought because i come across the 1054 bug and wish list and the fact the input bandwith is dived among the channels

Either you are using the wrong terminology or you're getting mixed up with the difference between sample rate and bandwidth. All 4 channels always have 100mhz of bandwidth (or 70, or 50 depending on model). It is the sample rate that gets divided and that happens only if you have the extra channels enabled.


Yes, that's what I thought he meant. Thanks for correcting.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on August 22, 2015, 04:21:09 am
Quote
alsetalokin4017
Well.... if you can find a 4-channel secondhand analog scope with 400 MHz bw that will do FFT, Frequency counting, pulse width and screendumps for 400 dollars, and comes with 4 probes... buy it, by all means!
I actually was about to do (old 1Ghz Lecroy for 300usd) but got distracted by Daves used-care-salesman approach in the end of the 1054z video! :)

Quote
Otherwise, get a Rigol 1054z, unlock it to 100 MHz and just don't use the features you don't want. Do you really need 400 MHz bandwidth, on your budget?
The hack is great dont get me wrong on this but that is not part of my scope request, 500Mhz is also fine as well as 1Ghz etc.

For instance i could tomorrow order a Rigol DS6102 for 7620 usd from my local supplier, but why on earth would i spend such a fortune just to look at high speed signals?
Is there a scope like box where i can attach a old PC screen to display the measured 477Mhz wave? Basically i dont need an oscope in traditional sense if you get my hint!

I need a Ghetto style high speed wave display! :)

Well, if that is really your requirement I have to wonder why you posted in the "Re: New Rigol DS1045z oscilloscope" thread ! Are you doing the "wind-up" by chance?
 >:D

Get that old LeCroy for 300 dollars, then! And of course you will need at least one probe with 500 MHz bandwidth, if you care about precision in the displayed waveform! Good luck with that!
Title: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope - frequency response
Post by: ankerwolf on August 29, 2015, 08:02:13 pm
Hello,
I have measured the frequency response. You can clearly see the differences.
The Tektronix oscilloscopes have a steeper drop. The Rigol DS1054Z is much flatter, also in the 100MHz option.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=168366)

LG Wolf
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SaabFAN on August 29, 2015, 08:32:01 pm
Quote
alsetalokin4017
Well.... if you can find a 4-channel secondhand analog scope with 400 MHz bw that will do FFT, Frequency counting, pulse width and screendumps for 400 dollars, and comes with 4 probes... buy it, by all means!
I actually was about to do (old 1Ghz Lecroy for 300usd) but got distracted by Daves used-care-salesman approach in the end of the 1054z video! :)

Quote
Otherwise, get a Rigol 1054z, unlock it to 100 MHz and just don't use the features you don't want. Do you really need 400 MHz bandwidth, on your budget?
The hack is great dont get me wrong on this but that is not part of my scope request, 500Mhz is also fine as well as 1Ghz etc.

For instance i could tomorrow order a Rigol DS6102 for 7620 usd from my local supplier, but why on earth would i spend such a fortune just to look at high speed signals?
Is there a scope like box where i can attach a old PC screen to display the measured 477Mhz wave? Basically i dont need an oscope in traditional sense if you get my hint!

I need a Ghetto style high speed wave display! :)

If your waveform is repetitive, you should consider scopes from the late 80s and early 90s. They had relatively low real time sampling, but with random sampling an equivalent sampling of several GS/s. Also the analog inputs were quite powerful back then and had smooth frequency response instead of the brickwall-like in more modern ones.
The Lecroy you mentioned is such a device. The HP-Units from that time-period should be able to do the job as well. These scopes also most likely have RS232 installed as standard, so you can extract the data via the serial-port and perform FFT-Calculations in excel or Matlab or whatever program you're using, like it is described here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/repairing-an-old-pm3320a/75/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/repairing-an-old-pm3320a/75/)
If you have the equipment available to characterize the frequency-response of the analog inputs, I think you can also use lower spec units like the PM3394 or even the PM3384 and reconstruct the real nature of the signal afterwards in Software. PM3394 Scopes also have the advantage to switch into analog-mode.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on August 29, 2015, 09:48:43 pm
I dont have the time or patience to read all the million posts about different scopes but with my requirements i'm i stuck with old secondhand analogs market or is there something new like this around?

Thanks for any info and your time regarding this!

This is a thread about the DSS1054Z. You don't have time nor patience to read and understand all the information other have taken the time to provide? So now you want everyone to change the discussion, and talk about things that aren't a DS1054Z and jump to your commands to give you help on your terms?

Why not start another thread about what YOU want to talk about. Why be like most people on the internet and pollute threads with off topic posts?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MT on August 30, 2015, 01:47:18 am
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Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TorqueRanger on September 05, 2015, 02:47:14 am
Does anyone know what is latest firmware update and can I get it without registering ???
My plan was to update to the latest software and upgrade to DS1104Z.. Have you guys had any problems with the updates and the upgrade hack  or any other kind of issues ???
My specs
Spec- DS1054Z
Software-00.04.03
Board-0.1.1


Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on September 05, 2015, 03:27:50 am
Version 00.04.03.SP1 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) is the latest.  Disregard the zip filename and see the directory name inside.
And Firmware Release Notes (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05ba/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf?sid=ErJFAfDAl).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TorqueRanger on September 11, 2015, 02:05:05 am
Thanks for the info ..
I am sorry I had to ask but the manual said to use Rigol.com but the website doesn't have the DS1054Z listed but if I used the http://www.rigolna.com (http://www.rigolna.com) webiste then it has all the information but I was sure how valid the website was since the manual said to use the Rigol.com site ..Also I am starting to learn Electronics and I was if it was in best interest to do the upgrade or am I better off sticking with stock setting ???? How much do you lose after the trial upgrade is done ??
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on September 11, 2015, 05:21:38 am
www.rigolna.com (http://www.rigolna.com) is the official Rigol North America site.  Not the main China site.

As far as upgrades...  The bandwidth and memory depth are the most important for me.  The extra triggers and decoders I've used to a lesser degree.  If you're going to upgrade, do them all and be done with it.  Use DSER.  Do NOT enable the 500uV/div option as it doesn't work properly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TorqueRanger on September 11, 2015, 07:02:13 pm

As far as upgrades...  The bandwidth and memory depth are the most important for me.  The extra triggers and decoders I've used to a lesser degree.  If you're going to upgrade, do them all and be done with it.  Use DSER.  Do NOT enable the 500uV/div option as it doesn't work properly.
Is it DSER or DSFR cause there is not listing for the DSER and everyone keeps saying it but no listing using the link below.
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 11, 2015, 07:46:48 pm
Everyone keeps saying DESR because that is what you should use. USE DSER NOT DSFR!!!!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: GonzoTheGreat on September 11, 2015, 08:07:27 pm
Version 00.04.03.SP1 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) is the latest.  Disregard the zip filename and see the directory name inside.
And Firmware Release Notes (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05ba/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf?sid=ErJFAfDAl).

Does pt.7 in the Release Notes mean that Rigol has repaired the zoom freeze bug ?

Quote
pt.7:
In scanning  mode,turned  on  the Zoom  display  and setted the AC as the trigger  coupling,then  adjusted  the timebase  of  Zoom  zone  and  the waveform  display  error.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 11, 2015, 09:49:32 pm
Is it DSER or DSFR cause there is not listing for the DSER and everyone keeps saying it but no listing using the link below.
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)

It's DSER. The list of codes hasn't been updated in quite some time. You do not want to enable all options because 500uV is not supported on 1054z. So type in DSER and you'll be all set.

Handy Mnemonics:
E: Everything that works
F: F***s the scope
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 11, 2015, 11:15:32 pm
Everyone keeps saying DESR because that is what you should use. USE DSER NOT DSFR!!!!!



That's right. But what is confusing some people is probably that the DSER  code is _undocumented_ in the Riglol keygen. It's not listed as an option... but it works anyway.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 11, 2015, 11:22:31 pm
Version 00.04.03.SP1 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) is the latest.  Disregard the zip filename and see the directory name inside.
And Firmware Release Notes (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05ba/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf?sid=ErJFAfDAl).

Does pt.7 in the Release Notes mean that Rigol has repaired the zoom freeze bug ?

Quote
pt.7:
In scanning  mode,turned  on  the Zoom  display  and setted the AC as the trigger  coupling,then  adjusted  the timebase  of  Zoom  zone  and  the waveform  display  error.


Unfortunately... no. The scopes that have the bug will still freeze when Mem Depth is 'Auto', Persistence set to 100ms or greater, and Horizontal Zoom (aka Delayed) mode is entered. Or at least mine still does, anyway, running 00.04.03.SP1.

A Rigol tech told me that there is supposed to be a new firmware version coming in October. Will it fix the issue? Let's hope so.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: GonzoTheGreat on September 11, 2015, 11:43:45 pm
What about the Math channel bug?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on September 12, 2015, 02:42:01 am
Maybe this will finally alleviate the code questions.  It's from the Re: Sniffing the Rigol's internal I2C bus (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/1297/) thread.
Just because a code is not listed on the Riglol keygen, doesn't mean you can't use it!
Maybe some one knows how to get DSER added to the Riglol keygen list.

Here is the bit representation for the DS1000Z hack code:
The first column is always 'D' and the second column is always 'S'.

DS1000Z ECC private key: 0x6F1106DDA994DA

DSAB - 00011 10000 00000 00001 - Advanced Triggers
DSAC - 00011 10000 00000 00010 - Decoders
DSAE - 00011 10000 00000 00100 - 24M Memory
DSAJ - 00011 10000 00000 01000 - Recorder
DSBA - 00011 10000 00001 00000 - 500uV Vertical      DO NOT USE!
DSEA - 00011 10000 00100 00000 - 100MHz

DSFR - 00011 10000 00101 01111 - All options           DO NOT USE!
DSER - 00011 10000 00100 01111 - All options except 500uV/div      USE THIS CODE!!!


The binary value assigned to each letter:
A = 00000     J = 01000     S = 10000     2 = 11000
B = 00001     K = 01001     T = 10001     3 = 11001
C = 00010     L = 01010     U = 10010     4 = 11010
D = 00011     M = 01011     V = 10011     5 = 11011
E = 00100     N = 01100     W = 10100     6 = 11100
F = 00101     P = 01101     X = 10101     7 = 11101
G = 00110     Q = 01110     Y = 10110     8 = 11110
H = 00111     R = 01111     Z = 10111     9 = 11111
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: timofonic on September 12, 2015, 04:09:48 am
Is 500uV/div a hardware limitation? Can't it be hacked too?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Lightages on September 12, 2015, 04:27:35 am
Yes, and no.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: timofonic on September 12, 2015, 05:28:58 am
Yes, and no.  :)

Thanks for the detailed reply ;)

Really....

Why?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on September 12, 2015, 05:40:51 am
You do not want it, it is a digital stretch of a lower portion of the ADC range, and they even did not bother to interpolate. The word to describe it: Junk.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on September 12, 2015, 05:46:45 am
I have never enabled it.  But, my understanding is that there are two issues. 

First, it's not part of the calibration processes and never vertically gets zeroed out.  It may or may not even appear on the screen and the vertical offset adjustment doesn't have the range to position it on the screen.

Second and I may be incorrect, the 500uV/div is getting into the low limits of the front end D/A processing.  Therefore, the 500uV/div range is not very useful because of the noise levels.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 12, 2015, 06:04:02 am
Yes, and no.  :)

Thanks for the detailed reply ;)

Really....

Why?

It is not limited by hardware. (depends how want think)
Highest true sensitivity in DS1000Z is 5mV/div.
After then 2mV and 1mV/div is only digitally vertically "zoomed".
What you get more if you zoom more.

ADC have 8 bit. 256 theoretical levels. (if look more deeply not really even this, ENOB, analog front end noise etc)

2mV/div (simplification)  128 levels.
1mV/div  (simplification) 64 levels

do you want zoom more.
If you look this scope quite noisy front end (analog front end + ADC) noise, do you get something more if you zoom more.

It is totally other case IF there is good low noise amplifier before ADC so that with 5mV pp signal  it use ADC full scale. (around 10 div vertically on the display)

Finally: Lowest true sensitivity in DS1000Z is 5mV/div.

This is truth least in my DS1074Z.





Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TorqueRanger on September 12, 2015, 07:17:54 am
Thanks for all your help and correcting alot of misunderstandings .. Do you think Rigol is keeping up with the issue listed above ??? I just hope they don't come out with some way to block the upgrade ....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on September 12, 2015, 07:25:30 am
I have read a couple places now that Rigol is to release a firmware update in October.  Rigol has been very responsive to issues that have apperared.   :-+

With the number of DS1000Z sales, it sure looks like it's in their best interest NOT to block the hack.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 12, 2015, 07:36:06 am
I have read a couple places now that Rigol is to release a firmware update in October.  Rigol has been very responsive to issues that have apperared.   :-+

With the number of DS1000Z sales, it sure looks like it's in their best interest NOT to block the hack.

Of course they do not block they own designed marketing trick, hack possibility.
They can do it harder if they want more this show just after they see peoples are coming bored with too easy hack.

Add: I do not believe it was designed in first place with DS1000E.
But I believe they learn fast how usefil it was when poples find it can hack. It was one reason what lead boom in markets and product lines do as fast as they can scopes to markets.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 12, 2015, 07:39:06 am
Rigol has been very responsive to issues that have apperared.

Not with the DS6000 series. They come with a very old firmware and the LAN connection is useless
(at least when you use direct tcp-connection). Just send the command :WAV:DATA? and the scope will freeze.
A hard lockup which can only be undone by switching off the power of the scope.

I reported this bug more than two months ago and they confirmed it. Yet still no fix.
It's their most expensive DSO.

USB connection works, but downloading deep memory waveform data stops after +/-25%. Useless!

How is their software quality control?


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 14, 2015, 01:27:32 am
Rigol has been very responsive to issues that have apperared.

Not with the DS6000 series. They come with a very old firmware and the LAN connection is useless
(at least when you use direct tcp-connection). Just send the command :WAV:DATA? and the scope will freeze.
A hard lockup which can only be undone by switching off the power of the scope.

I reported this bug more than two months ago and they confirmed it. Yet still no fix.
It's their most expensive DSO.

USB connection works, but downloading deep memory waveform data stops after +/-25%. Useless!

How is their software quality control?

It might be more accurate to say that Rigol are very responsive to issues that are blogged about by Dave, since his recommendation and this forum must have boosted their DS1054Z sales by thousands of units. Not responding would have been a sales disaster.

Having said that, they haven't done much if anything to address his trenchant criticism of their PC connectivity software.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 14, 2015, 08:14:41 am
Today we received an update from Rigol telling us that the new firmware for the DS6000 is postponed to the beginning of october...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TorqueRanger on September 14, 2015, 01:10:28 pm
I think I found a bug or am I that stupid???
I got a DS1054z scope upgraded , last night I was calibrating my probes for each channel but when I only had probes in channel 3&4...The cal signal from the scope would not stabilize unless I had a probe on channel 1 then the signal is stabilize is usable... 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on September 14, 2015, 01:34:25 pm
I think I found a bug or am I that stupid???
I got a DS1054z scope upgraded , last night I was calibrating my probes for each channel but when I only had probes in channel 3&4...The cal signal from the scope would not stabilize unless I had a probe on channel 1 then the signal is stabilize is usable...

Trigger source?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TorqueRanger on September 14, 2015, 01:38:06 pm
I am using the signal used off the scope to cal the probe..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on September 14, 2015, 01:45:15 pm
Yes, but you still have to go into the trigger menu and choose which channel the scope triggers on.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TorqueRanger on September 14, 2015, 01:54:33 pm
Ok cause I have no problems on Channels 1&2 but 3&4 is when the signal starts flipping out .. I will have to find out how to change the triggers and see if it helps ... Oh Thank you I upgraded my Scope with the  newest  4.3v software with no problem at all ...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lacommtech on September 15, 2015, 04:17:53 pm
I'm considering purchasing a DS1054Z before the next firmware upgrade.  Am I correct in concluding from the various posts that the units that are currently shipping are still easy to hack?

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: KermitDK on September 15, 2015, 04:23:53 pm
Got mine 3 weeks ago, and "upgraded" it without any problem. :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 15, 2015, 05:01:19 pm
I'm considering purchasing a DS1054Z before the next firmware upgrade.  Am I correct in concluding from the various posts that the units that are currently shipping are still easy to hack?

Mine arrived with firmware that was one version earlier than the currently downloadable one and it worked fine. Of course, no guarantee that future ones will still be hackable, but if history is any indication the prospects are good.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 15, 2015, 05:08:11 pm
Ok cause I have no problems on Channels 1&2 but 3&4 is when the signal starts flipping out .. I will have to find out how to change the triggers and see if it helps

Channel 1 is the default trigger. So, if you're using only 3 & 4, then you have to select either 3 or 4 as the trigger, accordingly. To change the trigger, press the Menu button in the Trigger area of the front panel. Then choose the source from the Source item on the screen. See Chapter 5 of the User Guide for more information.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fohdeesha on September 16, 2015, 10:01:07 am
I'd just like to thank Dave and everyone in this thread for the recommendations and the information, I got my DS1054Z today, it's my first digital scope after using an analog tektronix for a few years. I have to say I'm blown away at the feature set, mostly the measurement and decoding capability.

Although it's not explicitly "supposed" to, I've had no issue decoding modbus packets and traffic on an RS-485 bus by using the rs232 decoder and matching settings. Works perfectly and double checking against what the modbus master is sending, it's decoding everything correctly.

Amazing value for the money. DSER unlock code worked great, updated to latest firmware, and it ran a self cal no problem after letting the scope warm up for about half an hour.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TomThomas on September 16, 2015, 06:59:22 pm

It is not limited by hardware. (depends how want think)
Highest true sensitivity in DS1000Z is 5mV/div.
After then 2mV and 1mV/div is only digitally vertically "zoomed".
What you get more if you zoom more.

ADC have 8 bit. 256 theoretical levels. (if look more deeply not really even this, ENOB, analog front end noise etc)

2mV/div (simplification)  128 levels.
1mV/div  (simplification) 64 levels

do you want zoom more.
If you look this scope quite noisy front end (analog front end + ADC) noise, do you get something more if you zoom more.

It is totally other case IF there is good low noise amplifier before ADC so that with 5mV pp signal  it use ADC full scale. (around 10 div vertically on the display)

Finally: Lowest true sensitivity in DS1000Z is 5mV/div.

This is truth least in my DS1074Z.

Hi RF-Loop,
where you have this info from?

The reality is that 2mV/div is the lowest TRUE vertical sensitivity on DS1000Z!
ONLY 1mV/div is magification

Regards
Tom

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: timofonic on September 17, 2015, 02:35:17 am
RigLOL

Seriously. Wby can't they write a good firmware?

Arm the damn Hardware, make the firmware Open Source and let others contribute too.

Why do they impose artificial restrictions about licensing creatures and such shit? What about long unresolved bugs?

Rigol: What about contracting at least some very hardcore specialist to review the complete source code for bughunting and bugfixibg?
Title: Any adv having analog on hand also?
Post by: Rolar67 on September 20, 2015, 11:47:05 pm
Are there any advantages at having a similarly spec'd analog meter on hand in addition to an upgraded 1054z? I'll be using it primarily for aiding in electronics repair and designing circuits for high voltage applications (GM and other tubes)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 21, 2015, 01:06:10 am
Well, depends how much you spend on the analog scope. Get a good deal on one (or two) and you can use it as your go-to instrument while experimenting. It'd be cheaper than blowing up your 1054z. :-/O
Title: Highvolts
Post by: Rolar67 on September 21, 2015, 02:40:43 am
Ah! Point well made, eBay here I come.  Also, will someone please send the discount code for TEquipment?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 21, 2015, 02:53:00 am
No need for a code. Just use the online chat with them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: UConn94 on September 22, 2015, 03:08:34 am
What Bitseeker said.

Last week, after reading the blog site here, I used the online chat with TEquipment, told the chat person about the high marks about TEquipment from here, and about the scope, and he gave me a discount from the posted price.  Shipped UPS ground.  The amazing thing was that the scope (I purchased the the DS1074z) arrived to my door step in less than 48 hours.  Thumbs up!

Already 'talking' with the scope using TCP - nice unit!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 22, 2015, 04:47:54 am

It is not limited by hardware. (depends how want think)
Highest true sensitivity in DS1000Z is 5mV/div.
After then 2mV and 1mV/div is only digitally vertically "zoomed".
What you get more if you zoom more.

ADC have 8 bit. 256 theoretical levels. (if look more deeply not really even this, ENOB, analog front end noise etc)

2mV/div (simplification)  128 levels.
1mV/div  (simplification) 64 levels

do you want zoom more.
If you look this scope quite noisy front end (analog front end + ADC) noise, do you get something more if you zoom more.

It is totally other case IF there is good low noise amplifier before ADC so that with 5mV pp signal  it use ADC full scale. (around 10 div vertically on the display)

Finally: Lowest true sensitivity in DS1000Z is 5mV/div.

This is truth least in my DS1074Z.

Hi RF-Loop,
where you have this info from?

The reality is that 2mV/div is the lowest TRUE vertical sensitivity on DS1000Z!
ONLY 1mV/div is magification

Regards
Tom


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/msg563208/#msg563208 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/msg563208/#msg563208)


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: felixd on October 03, 2015, 09:01:31 am
 :-+  :bullshit:

Just received my brand new DS1054Z. DSER options worked just fine!
Beauty!

Comparing to Owon SDS8102 100 MHz, 2GS/s, 2 Ch I still have...well...beautybeautybeauty :)

Photos
https://goo.gl/photos/RUQojot8zDEc7NMW9
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 03, 2015, 09:18:57 am
Just received my brand new DS1054Z. DSER options worked just fine!
Beauty!

Congrats, good choice. Don't forget to update the firmware. Here's the link:

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: felixd on October 03, 2015, 09:34:18 am
Just received my brand new DS1054Z. DSER options worked just fine!
Beauty!

Congrats, good choice. Don't forget to update the firmware. Here's the link:

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

But I already have latest one 00.04.03
One you've linked: DS1ZUpdate_00.04.02.04.07.ZIP

Edit: I've checked linked firmware header. It shows: DS1000Z.........00.04.03.01.05......
Hmmm...let me find my USB stick ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 03, 2015, 10:04:38 am
After the update, when you check system info, you'll see software version 00.04.03.SP1.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: felixd on October 03, 2015, 01:06:24 pm
After the update, when you check system info, you'll see software version 00.04.03.SP1.

Yup, confirmed. Works fine ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gmit77 on October 03, 2015, 04:39:07 pm
hello hello hello!
we have just released a new bundle made by rigol ds1054z extech ex330 and hakko fx-888d
euro 439.99 + vat & free shipment to Europe (we ship from Italy)
http://www.batterfly.com/shop/bundle-ds1054z-ex330-fx888d (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/bundle-ds1054z-ex330-fx888d)
 :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 04, 2015, 07:04:36 am
Batronix (official rigol distributor) Euro 339 + VAT + free shipping within Europe. 100.- cheaper !
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: cs.dk on October 04, 2015, 07:18:40 am
Batronix (official rigol distributor) Euro 339 + VAT + free shipping within Europe. 100.- cheaper !

100€ cheaper??

He gives you a Hakko FX-888 and a multimeter with the scope.

The scope alone is 327,95€
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 04, 2015, 07:41:31 am
Batronix (official rigol distributor) Euro 339 + VAT + free shipping within Europe. 100.- cheaper !

But no extech ex330 or hakko fx-888d...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 04, 2015, 07:52:54 am
Sry, my fault, I should drink my coffee before I write here :o)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: IlGuru on October 05, 2015, 08:37:06 am
Don't forget to update the firmware. Here's the link:

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

Where can I see the changelog file about this firmware? Which bugs does it fix?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MudMan on October 05, 2015, 02:54:36 pm
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05ba/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf?sid=ErJFAfDAl (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05ba/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf?sid=ErJFAfDAl)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TorqueRanger on October 10, 2015, 05:03:14 am
How hard would it be to restore a hacked DS1054Z to the factory setting and what would you need ???
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on October 10, 2015, 05:36:21 am
How hard would it be to restore a hacked DS1054Z to the factory setting and what would you need ???
You'll need a computer and USB cable in order to feed SCPI commands.

The command to uninstall the upgrades is ... :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall (alternatively, you can also use :SYST:OPT:UNINST, as it's the letters in CAPS that = the actual command).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 10, 2015, 07:35:54 am
How hard would it be to restore a hacked DS1054Z to the factory setting and what would you need ???
You'll need a computer and USB cable in order to feed SCPI commands.

The command to uninstall the upgrades is ... :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall (alternatively, you can also use :SYST:OPT:UNINST, as it's the letters in CAPS that = the actual command).

That will only remove the options. In order to set it (partly) back to the factory settings, you have to send the command *RST.

However, I don't know a way to get the time limited trial options back.

And by the way, easiest way to manually send SCPI commands is via LAN.
Open a console and enter the command telnet 192.168.1.7 5555
Change the ip-address to the actual address of the scope.
You can test it by sending the command *IDN?
The scope will respond with an identification string that contains brand, model, serialnumber and software version.





Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ThirtyThirtyWin on October 12, 2015, 09:32:34 pm
I have a DS1054z that I hacked using DSFR, and so have the 500uV option installed.  I didn't know about the problems with it at the time.  I'm downloading Ultra Sigma now to do the SCPI commands to reset it, but I had a few questions.

Even though I have the 500uV option installed, the smallest volts/div I can go down to is 5mV/div.  Did Rigol eliminate the 500uV/div with SP4, since the 1054z hardware doesn't support it? I have 00.04.02.SP4 installed.  Is this the latest?

How is the 500uV problem affecting the performance of the scope?  If I never go down to 500uV/div would the problem affect higher volts/div?  Is the scope not performing well at 2V/div or 10V/div because of the 500uV/div issue?

Also, I just went to download the latest firmware on the Rigol site.  Am I looking at the "DS/MSO1000Z/-S: 00.04.03.01.05" for my scope?  Is this new firmware still hackable? I think I need to put in the correct hack of DSER, and upgrade the firmware, and I'm not sure in what order to do that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on October 12, 2015, 09:41:47 pm
Even though I have the 500uV option installed, the smallest volts/div I can go down to is 5mV/div.  Did Rigol eliminate the 500uV/div with SP4, since the 1054z hardware doesn't support it?
You probably have the probe scale factor set to 10X

Quote
If I never go down to 500uV/div would the problem affect higher volts/div?
No.

Quote
I think I need to put in the correct hack of DSER, and upgrade the firmware, and I'm not sure in what order to do that.
Doesn't matter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hayatepilot on October 12, 2015, 09:44:38 pm
Even though I have the 500uV option installed, the smallest volts/div I can go down to is 5mV/div.

You have the 10x option activated for the 10x probe.  ;)
Set it to 1x and it will go down to 500uV.

The newest version is 00.04.03.SP1, which is the version you downloaded from the Rigol site. Yes it is still hackable e.g. you keep all the installed options when you upgrade it.  :-+

Greetings
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 12, 2015, 10:09:09 pm
Did anyone ever figure out how to get into what Rigol calls "project mode".  On the DS2K/4K series you press the trigger menu button (set to edge) and then the buttons in the lower right followed by system.  Then system info shows more detail and version info.  I recall seeing a screenshot where someone got a DS1xx4Z in this mode once, but could never reproduce the keys to do it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ThirtyThirtyWin on October 12, 2015, 10:59:46 pm
Awesome, thank you edavid and hayatepilot.  This forum is very active!

Oh, of course the probe is in 10x...  :palm:  Switching it to 1x does indeed get the scope to a funky looking 500uV.

I'm working on resetting the scope now.  Getting timeout errors when I try to send *RST and :SYST:OPT:UNINST.  Going to try sending the commands over telnet/LXI when I get back from class tonight.

Then I just need to wait to hear back from Rigol about the firmware upgrade.  Only company I've ever seen that doesn't just post the firmware as a download on their site, and instead makes you email them to request it.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 13, 2015, 01:03:02 am
Did anyone ever figure out how to get into what Rigol calls "project mode".  On the DS2K/4K series you press the trigger menu button (set to edge) and then the buttons in the lower right followed by system.  Then system info shows more detail and version info.  I recall seeing a screenshot where someone got a DS1xx4Z in this mode once, but could never reproduce the keys to do it.
I don't remember seeing such a screenshot, but if you ask the scope to save "Param" to a .txt file on the USB stick, then look at the text file, you'll see a lot of information on the scope's "software" which is what we are calling firmware, the actual "firmware" and "Boot" versions, and the scope's current settings.

Storage>Storage>Param, then Save, etc.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 13, 2015, 01:11:10 am
Awesome, thank you edavid and hayatepilot.  This forum is very active!

Oh, of course the probe is in 10x...  :palm:  Switching it to 1x does indeed get the scope to a funky looking 500uV.

I'm working on resetting the scope now.  Getting timeout errors when I try to send *RST and :SYST:OPT:UNINST.  Going to try sending the commands over telnet/LXI when I get back from class tonight.
Selecting Storage>Default resets the scope's user settings to the factory defaults, except for the Language (and installed Options). This is useful for clearing out a complicated multichannel setup, for example.

Pressing the 5th-from-top grey left menu button repeatedly during bootup resets everything including language (but not the Options) back to factory default. This is useful if the scope is frozen and won't respond to buttons or knobs.
Quote

Then I just need to wait to hear back from Rigol about the firmware upgrade.  Only company I've ever seen that doesn't just post the firmware as a download on their site, and instead makes you email them to request it.  :-//

The link to the Rigol "firmware" update has been posted several times in the thread. Most recently on the previous page of this thread. You don't need to email them or wait for it.

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 13, 2015, 01:37:42 am
I don't remember seeing such a screenshot, but if you ask the scope to save "Param" to a .txt file on the USB stick, then look at the text file

Thanks, I found out about the param method last week.  It has been awhile since the screenshot was posted here, but it _is_ possible if only someone can figure out the key sequence...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: delmadord on October 15, 2015, 08:38:16 pm
Hello, I just got one today and I am confused about the voiding the warranty with DSER unlock option. Let's say, this link (http://www.thebrightpixel.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7) say's it does not even void the warranty. I could think it has already been discussed before., but please sorry for not reading the 116 pages worth of discussion. Please, does SW unlocking (but not touching the warranty seal) voids the warranty or not? Thank you.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 15, 2015, 08:51:38 pm
I don't think uyou lost your warranty, because you don't change anything at the scope himself or in the software. All you do is activate a few options, thats forbidden of course, but why you should lost your warranty than? You everytime can change it back to the original setup without any options.
But, u have 30 Days all options for free, so why u want hack them now,directly after you got your scope? Wait this 30 days...   Its a long time running the scope 30 Days...  And if its running 30 Days u can be shure the scope is working for the next 3 years. THAN you always can "hack" it, if u need it.
Think about, what happens if u hack them now and u maybe have an issue with your power supply and u have to send it back. Your scope is ded then and u can't remove the hacked options !
They open the scope and see u have hack all the options without pay for it. Whats then ??
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: delmadord on October 15, 2015, 09:00:24 pm
I don't think uyou lost your warranty, because you don't change anything at the scope himself or in the software. All you do is activate a few options, thats forbidden of course, but why you should lost your warranty than? You everytime can change it back to the original setup without any options.
But, u have 30 Days all options for free, so why u want hack them now,directly after you got your scope? Wait this 30 days...   Its a long time running the scope 30 Days...  THAN you always can "hack" it.

I probably made a mistake, I did not activate them yet. Also, my scope came with 36 hours not 30 days with full trial. Still about 28 hours left. But this is strange. 36 hours (half a day) seemed nice round number. Do you think someone had turned the scope on before?

Also I have read some more, to find out what you said: 1) in most cases it does not void warranty - it may depend on the country 2) it can be reversed by by SCPI command (whatever it is). Is there any confirmed case where the user unlocked the settings, reversed it back and it voided the warranty? I could not find it (mainly because the relevance of the 'warranty void if not removed' T-shirt is higher :) )
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on October 15, 2015, 09:07:32 pm
There is usually around 36 hours or so of use with the options enabled as trials. This is 36 hours of scope on time, not elapsed calendar time.

Yes, you can uninstall the options, using the LAN or USB connection and the Rigol software that allows,you to send SCPI commands. That same software also allows you to install the keys, rather than trying to do it from the front panel with the fiddly multifunction knob. The commands are through a command line interface within the Rigol software's GUI.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 15, 2015, 09:10:46 pm
Maybe my fault. may I have mixed up 30 days with 30hours. I broke my warranty singn because I want take a look inside. So MY warrynty is void anyway.
I think it is better u play arround with your 30h and than u "hack" it if u need it.
T-shirt "don't turn it on, take it appart" hehe
I am not sure, but I think if you downgrade your firmware after remove the hack, Rigol is not interested in this hack. I think this hack is a marketing option from Rigol himself. Or do you think they send it back to China and repair this $US350 "thing"? I don't think so..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 16, 2015, 12:47:24 pm
Is there a link anywhere to the preferred method of upgrading the firmware on a DS1000Z ?  Is there a bootup and press the help button repeatedly type way to do this like on the DS2000 series?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fohdeesha on October 16, 2015, 02:09:31 pm
Is there a link anywhere to the preferred method of upgrading the firmware on a DS1000Z ?  Is there a bootup and press the help button repeatedly type way to do this like on the DS2000 series?

put the firmware .gel file on a thumb drive, plug it into the scope whenever. without needing to do anything it'll detect the file and ask you if you want to update
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alank2 on October 16, 2015, 02:17:35 pm
That is the discouraged method on the DS2K/DS4K because the bootloader method is better.  Do you know if the DS1KZ have a bootloader method (maybe it doesn't)?  Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fohdeesha on October 16, 2015, 04:51:21 pm
Not that I've ever seen, everyone I've seen (dave included) just loads it up during operation. Haven't heard of anyone having an issue with doing so
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 16, 2015, 07:09:12 pm
I've done it as described above. Just copy the file onto a USB stick and plug it in (no need to switch scope off, just plug it in).

A popup window will appear saying 'firmware update detected, install Y/N'.

Select 'yes', wait. Switch 'scope off+on, done.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on October 17, 2015, 12:30:34 am
Is there a link anywhere to the preferred method of upgrading the firmware on a DS1000Z ?  Is there a bootup and press the help button repeatedly type way to do this like on the DS2000 series?

Attached are the official instructions provide me from Rigol.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shamron on October 17, 2015, 06:05:11 am
Hi there guys. Sorry for asking a question in my first post instead of introducing myself. I will do that in my post #2.

I live in Norway and I really want this scope. First of all, the scope is not available here, and on eBay it costs like 530$ plus an additional 170$ import tax, and finally around 50$ in shipping. Does anyone of you know of a Scandinavian distributor or reseller? Or where I can get this scope at anywhere near the bargain price which makes it so attractive?

Paying 750$ for it kinda makes it not so attractive and feels like a rip-off.

As an alternative, what do you think about the UTD 2052 CEX? I know from watching eevblog on YouTube that UNI-T multimeters aren't all that, so I'm kinda scared to even consider it...

PS: I'm turning 40 and elfa.se have a package deal on Fluke 87 + Fluke 62 I thermometer for 310$ which is a bargain and the price just yesterday was 620$. My total budget (or my gf's budget for gift to me) for multimeter and scope is 833$.

Anyone?

(ok, will post a "hi, this is me" introduction-post now. 😊).

Ben.-
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 17, 2015, 07:09:12 am
I live in Norway and I really want this scope. First of all, the scope is not available here, and on eBay it costs like 530$ plus an additional 170$ import tax, and finally around 50$ in shipping. Does anyone of you know of a Scandinavian distributor or reseller? Or where I can get this scope at anywhere near the bargain price which makes it so attractive?

RIGOL DS1054Z Promo Sale, Free shipment to Europe and discount:

http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z)


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on October 17, 2015, 07:41:15 am
Hello,
... Does anyone of you know of a Scandinavian distributor or reseller? Or where I can get this scope at anywhere near the bargain price which makes it so attractive?

http://www.batronix.com/versand/rigol/DS1000Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/versand/rigol/DS1000Z.html)

LG Wolfgang
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shamron on October 17, 2015, 07:45:00 am

RIGOL DS1054Z Promo Sale, Free shipment to Europe and discount:

http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z)

This looks nice, however it looks like it's from Italy, which means a 100% guarantee I'll have to pay import tax on it, netting it at least another 166$. Also, US normally charges extra for what they call simplified tax-treatment, which adds to the total. Any way to get them to write a lower value/price or mark it as a gift? Sorry if this is rude/not exactly the most correct way to do it, but our economy demands it. 😊
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shamron on October 17, 2015, 07:59:37 am
Hello,
... Does anyone of you know of a Scandinavian distributor or reseller? Or where I can get this scope at anywhere near the bargain price which makes it so attractive?

http://www.batronix.com/versand/rigol/DS1000Z.html (http://www.batronix.com/versand/rigol/DS1000Z.html)

LG Wolfgang

Thank you very much. I BET there will be added VAT on this, but let's postpone that pain until after my birthday. 😊

Ordered. 😊
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 17, 2015, 08:25:31 pm
Nope, VAT is included, so u got this scope for the 403 Euro n free shipping. Because it's inside EU or did u live in Norway ?.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on October 18, 2015, 11:03:52 pm
…and elfa.se have a package deal on Fluke 87 + Fluke 62 I thermometer for 310$ which is a bargain
:o omg that's an amazing price, anyone in Sweden willing to forward it to me in Switzerland? (Of course the Swiss office of elfa/Distrelec has that bundle for $600+…) Needless to say the elfa.se website will not send to any other country….
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vk2amv on October 19, 2015, 03:04:54 am
Dammit, after reading this thread and watching Dave's videos on the DS1054Z my finger slipped and I "accidently" ordered one. (That's my excuse to my wife and I am sticking with it  :-DD)

I ordered mine from eyou.com.au in Australia (Not Austria) so it should reach me overnight pretty much.

Came to $625 for the scope, plus also ordered a couple of the Rigol RT50J 50 Ohm pass through terminators while I was at it.

Will be interesting to see in person side by side the 5 or so years difference between this one and my old Rigol DS1052E.

I bought that one back when the EEVblog was in the single digits and Dave did the original review on it.

So this is now the second oscilloscope that I have purchased simply because I saw it on the EEVblog..... Oh well there are worse things I suppose  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 19, 2015, 03:14:47 am
Dammit, after reading this thread and watching Dave's videos on the DS1054Z my finger slipped and I "accidently" ordered one. (That's my excuse to my wife and I am sticking with it  :-DD)
...
So this is now the second oscilloscope that I have purchased simply because I saw it on the EEVblog..... Oh well there are worse things I suppose  :-DD

Yeah, seems like you're not too "accident" prone, yet. Carry on. And enjoy the scope!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wirehead on October 19, 2015, 12:50:59 pm
Just took delivery of mine. Fresh FW upgrade and ready to rock. This thing is packed with features.. what a difference with my old analog beast  :o
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 20, 2015, 03:09:10 am
It would be interesting (at least to me) to know if these newly-received DS1054Z scopes can reproduce some of the various bugs that we've noticed.

The Freeze Bug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3qLx1PYXyw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3qLx1PYXyw)
and
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/)  (please "vote" in the poll as to whether or not you can reproduce this one)

The Math horizontal error bug (see first screenshot below)

The Trigger horizontal error bug (see the second and third screenshots below)

The zoom Trigger bug (see the fourth screenshot below)


Note that the timebase settings need to be set as in the scopeshots for these Trigger and Math bugs to occur.
The "freeze bug" settings are shown in the video and talked about in the thread; in particular they need Mem Depth "Auto" and Persistence set to 100 ms or higher.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on October 20, 2015, 06:03:13 am
It would be interesting (at least to me) to know if these newly-received DS1054Z scopes can reproduce some of the various bugs that we've noticed.
This is not the newest FW !
Please update to SP1 and repeat the check.
LG Wolfgang
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wirehead on October 20, 2015, 06:08:54 am
It would be interesting (at least to me) to know if these newly-received DS1054Z scopes can reproduce some of the various bugs that we've noticed.

The Freeze Bug:(please "vote" in the poll as to whether or not you can reproduce this one)

The Math horizontal error bug (see first screenshot below)

The Trigger horizontal error bug (see the second and third screenshots below)

The zoom Trigger bug (see the fourth screenshot below)


Note that the timebase settings need to be set as in the scopeshots for these Trigger and Math bugs to occur.
The "freeze bug" settings are shown in the video and talked about in the thread; in particular they need Mem Depth "Auto" and Persistence set to 100 ms or higher.

-I don't have the freeze bug - tested this multiple times and voted.
-I dont't have the horizontal math error - nothing is shifted
-No jitterbug (pun intended  :-DD)
-No triggerbug; zoom is just fine.

Running the latest firmware (00.04.03.SP1) with HW revision 0.1.1
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 20, 2015, 06:10:47 am
It would be interesting (at least to me) to know if these newly-received DS1054Z scopes can reproduce some of the various bugs that we've noticed.
This is not the newest FW !
Please update to SP1 and repeat the check.

So the real question is: "Are new scopes shipping with the latest firmware?"
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 20, 2015, 06:24:48 am
It would be interesting (at least to me) to know if these newly-received DS1054Z scopes can reproduce some of the various bugs that we've noticed.
This is not the newest FW !
Please update to SP1 and repeat the check.
LG Wolfgang

Indeed, it's not the latest fw. System Info should show 00.04.03.SP1.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 20, 2015, 08:01:11 pm
Indeed.... it IS the latest firmware. Of course.    |O

The settings to reproduce the bugs are quite specific.

Screenshots below taken just now.


(Lots of experience cannot compensate for failure to follow instructions......   :box:  )

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 20, 2015, 08:12:59 pm
You  might also ask your scopes to save a Param text file and look at the information there.

Code: [Select]
Model:DS1104Z
SN:DS1ZA170300673
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1

Note that what we are calling "firmware" is actually what the scope calls "SoftWare" and the scope's Firmware is something else. As far as I can tell our "firmware" updates using the .gel file only change the "SoftWare" and the other items are not changed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: IlGuru on October 20, 2015, 09:28:52 pm
All prices are at the net of VAT, so buy from Germany  instead of Italy, there VAT is cheaper. I bought mine from batronix online store.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 20, 2015, 10:18:44 pm
Forget it, he's from Norway and Norway is not EU. So he pay VAT and TAX and customs duties. He can buy one from US, its the same price. Thats why we have the EU.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 21, 2015, 01:48:40 am
@alsetalokin4017

I have the same issue with a hacked one.  :-BROKE   |O

The other issues u have I check tomorrow (Math and so on) and upload the pics.

500µV is not installed
Firmware 00.04.03 SP1
Board version 0.1.1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xSdAz_Phm8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xSdAz_Phm8)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on October 21, 2015, 01:57:15 am
How I  include the youtube code here ?

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0xSdAz_Phm8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
That works, looks ugly.

Copy and paste URL in post.
Highlight URL
Click "Insert Hyperlink"
Done
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 21, 2015, 02:03:33 am
I meant same like alsetalokin4017 did it here..

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg781316/#msg781316 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg781316/#msg781316)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on October 21, 2015, 02:12:09 am
I meant same like alsetalokin4017 did it here..

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg781316/#msg781316 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg781316/#msg781316)

Simple just do this:
Code: [Select]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xSdAz_Phm8[/url]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xSdAz_Phm8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xSdAz_Phm8)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 21, 2015, 02:15:15 am
Fixed, thank you.  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope - New Bug found?
Post by: ankerwolf on October 21, 2015, 06:10:06 am
Hello,
is this a new unknown bug?

At TRIGGER MENU > Settings > Coupling ...
At DC and HFR the Trigger-Level-Display is ok.
At AC and LFR the T-Symbol and Line disappear.

Please verify.

LG Wolfgang

PS: 00.04.03.SP1
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope - New Bug found?
Post by: ebastler on October 21, 2015, 06:26:47 am
Hello,
is this a new unknown bug?

At TRIGGER MENU > Settings > Coupling ...
At DC and HFR the Trigger-Level-Display is ok.
At AC and LFR the T-Symbol and Line disappear.

This is intentional, in my understanding: When the trigger is AC coupled, there is no absolute trigger level, hence there is nothing to display.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope - New Bug found?
Post by: ankerwolf on October 21, 2015, 06:39:06 am
At TRIGGER MENU > Settings > Coupling ...
At DC and HFR the Trigger-Level-Display is ok.
At AC and LFR the T-Symbol and Line disappear.

This is intentional, in my understanding: When the trigger is AC coupled, there is no absolute trigger level, hence there is nothing to display.

Yes, if the TRIGGER-Source is AC, then it's possible ok.
NO, when you set the TRIGGER-Coupling to AC, you can vary the Trigger-Level - check it!
It makes sense!
My old TEK TDS210 shows in all 4 Modes (DC,AC,LRF,HRF) the Trigger-Level and let ist vary.

LG Wolfgang
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope - New Bug found?
Post by: ebastler on October 21, 2015, 06:50:30 am
Yes, if the TRIGGER-Source is AC, then it's possible ok.
NO, when you set the TRIGGER-Coupling to AC, you can vary the Trigger-Level - check it!
It makes sense!
My old TEK TDS210 shows in all 4 Modes (DC,AC,LRF,HRF) the Trigger-Level and let ist vary.

LG Wolfgang

Yes, you can vary the trigger level in AC mode -- but the trigger level you set will be relative to the current average value of the input signal. The absolute trigger threshold will hence fluctuate if the input signal has low-frequency fluctuations.

Well, I guess you could display the trigger level nevertheless. But if you show your signal in DC mode and use AC coupled trigger, the trigger level should move up and down on the screen as the (low-pass-filtered) signal fluctuates. There is information in there, but I imaging it would be quite distracting. Is this what your TDS210 displays?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope - New Bug found?
Post by: Fennec on October 21, 2015, 09:36:59 am
is this a new unknown bug?

No, it's more than 6 months old. look at alsetalokin4017 Videos and page 118 in this topic

youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/TinselKoala (https://www.youtube.com/user/TinselKoala)

PS: 00.04.03.SP1
???
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 22, 2015, 02:57:35 am
@alsetalokin4017

I can not repoduce your math and trigger errors. All of them working fine with the 00.04.03.SP1 firmware.
Please can you send me your scope-setup files so I can check it again ? Maybe your setup was wrong at your measurments.

The only issue I have is the persist 100ms / memory bug with the hang up. Please someone else can check the persist / memory error with the hanging up ? Shown in the video few posts up.

/Edit
okay, forget it, found the Bug/wishlist thread here:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/)
 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 22, 2015, 04:22:11 am
@alsetalokin4017

I can not repoduce your math and trigger errors. All of them working fine with the 00.04.03.SP1 firmware.
Please can you send me your scope-setup files so I can check it again ? Maybe your setup was wrong at your measurments.

OK, .stp files attached below, zipped into a file, with scopeshots to match.

For these cases I have been using a 0-12V square pulse train from a variable VCO.

Quote

The only issue I have is the persist 100ms / memory bug with the hang up. Please someone else can check the persist / memory error with the hanging up ? Shown in the video few posts up.

/Edit
okay, forget it, found the Bug/wishlist thread here:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/)
 

Actually there's a whole thread on the topic, with a "poll" of users. Slightly over half of the people who have reported in have been able to get their scopes to freeze by following the instructions precisely. (31 can, 30 couldn't at this point. All "firmware" versions appear to be bitten by the bug. Although the latest firmware may not always reset "mem depth" to Auto on bootup, so it may be more difficult to get the scope to _start_ in the frozen mode, but you can still get it to freeze while running.)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/135/#msg689516 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/135/#msg689516)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 22, 2015, 05:41:27 am
I just went through the process of updating the firmware on mine and discovered that the scope's interface would freeze upon inserting a 2GB USB flash drive with the firmware file on it. The screen would continue to update, but all input controls no longer worked. Removing the drive did not restore functionality. I had to power it off. Removing the file still caused the interface to freeze when plugging the drive in.

Switching to a 512MB flash drive yields no freezes. So, I put the firmware file on there and the scope recognized it as expected. Upgrade completed successfully.

With the latest firmware installed, the scope still freezes with the 2GB drive, but is fine with the 512MB. Both use FAT16.

The manual doesn't specify anything about compatible USB storage devices. Is there a maximum size?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 22, 2015, 05:56:58 am
With the latest firmware installed, the scope still freezes with the 2GB drive, but is fine with the 512MB. Both use FAT16.

The manual doesn't specify anything about compatible USB storage devices. Is there a maximum size?

No, but FAT16 needs big cluster sizes on those drives. That might be the problem.

Try FAT32 and see if it still crashes. If it doesn't then you found a bug in the FAT16 support.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on October 22, 2015, 06:14:39 am
I just tried it with the same 2GB stick I've been using, and got an initialization failure instead. Interface still works both when the USB stick is inserted as well as removed.

FWIW, it's formatted in FAT32 and configured as a boot drive. The .gel file on it is the same that was used for the last update.  So far, I've been using the OFF, insert USB stick, turn ON update method without issue.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on October 22, 2015, 06:33:28 am
From the User Guide troubleshooting chapter:

8. The USB storage device cannot be recognized:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 22, 2015, 06:51:36 am
Thanks, Mark. Nice place for them to put product specifications. So, 8GB in size, but no indication of file systems nor cluster sizes.

According to this https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/140365 page, MS Windows default cluster sizes are as follows:

FAT16, 256MB - 512MB: 8K clusters (Assuming that overlapping ranges include the upper value and not the lower one. What is it with documentation these days?)
FAT16, 512MB - 1GB: 16k clusters
FAT16, 1GB - 2GB: 32K clusters

FAT32, 256MB - 8GB: 4K clusters

Since my 512MB FAT16 worked, Rigol claims 8GB works, and my 2GB FAT16 doesn't, I guess the scope can handle up to 8K clusters, maybe 16K (untested), but not 32K.

Note: Mine were formatted by default with FAT16, not FAT32.

Anyone have a 1GB drive formatted with FAT16?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 22, 2015, 07:37:12 am
I have used a Corsair 32GB FAT32 formatted stick to update a DS1045Z without any problems.
Also, I used a Kingston 16GB FAT32 formatted stick with a clusterzise of 16384 bytes to update a DS6104 without any problems.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 22, 2015, 07:49:48 am
It is recommended that the capacity of the USB storage device being used with this oscilloscope is no larger than 8 GBytes.
There's no reason at all the disk size would make a difference, it's just numbers.

Cluster sizes? Sure - buffer overruns and all that.

Not total disk size though.

I have used a Corsair 32GB FAT32 formatted stick to update a DS1045Z without any problems.
Also, I used a Kingston 16GB FAT32 formatted stick with a clusterzise of 16384 bytes to update a DS6104 without any problems.

See!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 22, 2015, 02:50:23 pm
The response to USB sticks can be very variable. Sometimes you'll get the "Disabled some operations" message and the scope will seem to freeze (progress bar stalls) for a couple or three minutes even before it finishes. For saving screenshots to USB, especially with several channels operating, I've found it generally goes a lot faster if you STOP the scope with the Run/Stop button before pressing the "print" button.
I'm generally using an 8GB FAT32 stick with lots of folders and files already on it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 22, 2015, 03:57:05 pm
It is recommended that the capacity of the USB storage device being used with this oscilloscope is no larger than 8 GBytes.
There's no reason at all the disk size would make a difference, it's just numbers.

Cluster sizes? Sure - buffer overruns and all that.

Not total disk size though.

Size does make a difference, but indirectly. It affects the default cluster size that's used on the storage medium. The documentation, however, was written for non-technical people (i.e., obscure the details), which makes life more difficult for technical folks, unfortunately.

Of course, putting the actual storage specifications in the specs section of the docs would have been nice.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: fvera on October 23, 2015, 10:49:13 pm
Looking to place an order, could someone kindly PM the coupon code.

Regards,
Fernando
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 24, 2015, 12:37:08 am
@alsetalokin4017

Thx for the files. Now I could reproduce all your issues. Exactly the same. Based on your topic https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg781316/#msg781316 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg781316/#msg781316)

The trigger issus I have with timebase set to 50µs only. Math and zoom is the 120k (120k only) / HighRes bug. See the pix.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on October 27, 2015, 09:12:41 am
New firmware received by mail from RIGOL

Regards



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hayatepilot on October 27, 2015, 10:54:37 am
@rosbuitre

Nice!
Did you notice any changes/improvements?
Were any of the bugs (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/) fixed?

Greetings
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: crispy_tofu on October 27, 2015, 10:59:14 am
@rosbuitre

Nice!
Did you notice any changes/improvements?
Were any of the bugs (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/) fixed?

Greetings

+1, I would also like to know.  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on October 27, 2015, 12:13:28 pm
@rosbuitre

Nice!
Did you notice any changes/improvements?
Were any of the bugs (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/) fixed?

Greetings

Hi
I had no time to try it, only just install

Regards
+1, I would also like to know.  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: f1rmb on October 27, 2015, 02:04:15 pm
Hi,

New firmware received by mail from RIGOL

Regards

Do you mind to share ?. I just checked the rigol's website, and only previous version is listed.

Cheers.
---
Daniel
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on October 27, 2015, 02:53:50 pm
Hi,

New firmware received by mail from RIGOL

Regards

Do you mind to share ?. I just checked the rigol's website, and only previous version is listed.

Cheers.
---
Daniel


Shared, please confirm if they can download.
Following the instructions I could not install, recognizes new version when you insert the pen drive.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6F_CSCAsnsoS0dtQ3BLNV9yUTg/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6F_CSCAsnsoZjFyRmdkVUQzZ3M/view?usp=sharing

Regards
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: f1rmb on October 27, 2015, 03:21:33 pm
Hi,

Hi,

New firmware received by mail from RIGOL

Regards

Do you mind to share ?. I just checked the rigol's website, and only previous version is listed.

Cheers.
---
Daniel


Shared, please confirm if they can download.
Following the instructions I could not install, recognizes new version when you insert the pen drive.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6F_CSCAsnsoS0dtQ3BLNV9yUTg/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6F_CSCAsnsoZjFyRmdkVUQzZ3M/view?usp=sharing

Regards

Many thanks, I'll upgrade in a few minutes. BTW, the update procedure in the document from the second sharing URL is wrong. AFAIK there is no bootloader in DS1000Z, so the help button have no action on startup.

Cheers.
---
Daniel
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 27, 2015, 04:45:35 pm
Correct. Just plug in the USB drive with the file in the root directory and the scope will prompt to install it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: f1rmb on October 27, 2015, 05:03:27 pm
Okay, just flashed, reset to default, autocal, and the freezing bug looks still there :-(


Cheers
---
Daniel
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 27, 2015, 07:32:14 pm
Did a quick check.

Freeze bug does'nt fixed
Math issue does'nt fixed
50µs timebase / trigger issue seems to be fixed... Iam not sure, maybe someone else can check it too.

BUT

I feel the whole scope is much slower.
The probe devider setting is a procedure like hell now. Pain in the ass. Useless < My knob is broken
If I turn on all 4 channels and the brightness changes with the memory settings. The channels are flickering now.

I play a little with this firmware and change back to SP1 that's for sure.
/Edited
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: strimarc on October 27, 2015, 08:12:56 pm
I'm looking to buy a new DS1054z..  Can someone give me the discount code eevblog members?  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 27, 2015, 09:48:48 pm
No code needed. Just use the online chat.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on October 27, 2015, 11:16:30 pm
Did you notice any changes/improvements?
Yes, many German incorrect translations which I had reported.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on October 28, 2015, 12:40:59 am
I'm looking to buy a new DS1054z..  Can someone give me the discount code eevblog members?  Thanks in advance.

PM sent.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 28, 2015, 03:47:16 pm
Well, that's interesting. I reported the FreezeBug to Rigol when I found it, and was assigned a number and was told there would be a new firmware in October. I get notifications of sales and equipment from Rigol but I have heard _nothing_ from them about this new firmware.

And it seems like it is causing problems and doesn't actually fix the important stuff like the freeze bug and the math horizontal error.

So I downloaded it from rosbuitre's link but I'm not going to install it just yet, due to the reports of slowing, flickering, not fixing the bugs, etc.

What is the matter with Rigol? It seems like they are really dropping the ball on this one. The "firmware" needs a complete rewrite, I think.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on October 28, 2015, 05:00:46 pm
I have noted that Rigol UK is saying the latest s/w--f/w is now 00.04.03.SP2 so I have downloaded from the link provided by rosbuitre but not proceeded any further yet.  Maybe try it tomorrow.

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on October 28, 2015, 07:31:21 pm
My first quick check with the new Update 00.04.03.SP2:
No Trigger Bug more - all ok ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on October 28, 2015, 08:08:45 pm
Freeze bug is just the same with this new firmware. UGH!
John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on October 28, 2015, 09:10:58 pm
My first quick check with the new Update:
No Trigger Bug more - all ok ;D
Has the UI become sluggish with this newest release?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on October 28, 2015, 11:06:11 pm
Hello,
no Zoom Bug more (00.04.03.SP2) - look
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on October 28, 2015, 11:32:33 pm
Hello,
with 00.04.03.SP2
1) now I can't see the Math bug - can anyone check it too (what procedure?)

2) Math & Zoom lookes good, BUT LAN FREEZING !!! (more check needed)

3) now: NO !!  Freeze bug as shown here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg781316/#msg781316 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg781316/#msg781316)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nrxnrx on October 29, 2015, 06:32:11 am
snip

I see you have 4 pages of 'horizontal' measurements on the left! I only have 3 with SP1.

Anybody have the release notes for SP2? I asked Rigol for new firmware, but they sent me the old one.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on October 29, 2015, 08:10:12 am
I see you have 4 pages of 'horizontal' measurements on the left! I only have 3 with SP1.
Yes, look here:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 29, 2015, 11:32:35 am
So... once again we have some conflicting reports. Several people who have installed the new firmware have reported that the scope still freezes and that the Math horizontal error is still there. Other people report that these bugs, and the trigger zoom bug, are fixed in the new firmware. Hmm....

I'm concerned about the report of LAN freezing, the sluggish performance and the flickering screens with the new firmware. Does anyone have any more information about these things? I am still afraid to install the new firmware because of these issues. I do use the scope with the DSRemote software over my LAN, and the scope is sluggish enough without adding more sluggishness, especially when writing a file to a USB stick...which should go very fast but sometimes takes _several minutes_ to complete.

I see that the new firmware apparently adds pulse counters and edge counters to the Horizontal Measurements. That's really good, if they actually work.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on October 29, 2015, 11:58:29 am
Hello,
one important info: "After install new firmware >>> Selfcalibration !!!"
Before I saw the Math-Bug, after the Selfcalibration it was gone!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wirehead on October 29, 2015, 01:31:47 pm
Hello,
one important info: "After install new firmware >>> Selfcalibration !!!"
Before I saw the Math-Bug, after the Selfcalibration it was gone!

Yes, you always have to do that after a firmware update. It seems it clears some calibration variables. Warm up the unit for an hour, disconnect everything and run the self calibration. After the self calibration; restart the scope. I've done the upgrade and don't have the math bug. Didn't have it in SP1 as well. There's a small graphical glitch with the added Horizontal measurements - the page indicator "hides" a part from the "Rise Time" text.. but hey.. It's a 400 EUR scope; who's complaining. Not me :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: timofonic on October 29, 2015, 01:32:28 pm
This is really confusing. Can anyone contact directly to relevant Rigol people from their technical department? Maybe a distributor could be replied.

I'm saving to get a scope, but this mess on the cheap range makes me very undecided
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 29, 2015, 01:56:42 pm
I'm saving to get a scope, but this mess on the cheap range makes me very undecided

Don't worry. This scope is worth having even with the freezing bug. I've never seen it and I've had mine for a year.

(And fingers crossed it will be fixed soon...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on October 29, 2015, 04:01:44 pm
Obligatory question for every new firmware release...  ;)

Dose this update forbid unlocking of the options or interfere if already unlocked ?

Tnx  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on October 29, 2015, 04:11:49 pm
This latest firmware upgrade does not affect the 'hack' unlocked options they are still there according to the option list.  Not sure whether a normal clean DS1054Z will still upgrade but believe it would probably still work ok.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on October 30, 2015, 12:33:34 am
I'm saving to get a scope, but this mess on the cheap range makes me very undecided

Don't worry. This scope is worth having even with the freezing bug. I've never seen it and I've had mine for a year.

(And fingers crossed it will be fixed soon...)

Agreed, I have a brand new Tek MDO3000 that crashes with far less effort than the Rigol DS1000Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MadReasonable on October 30, 2015, 12:54:55 am
Just received my DS1054z today.  It came with firmware version 00.04.03 and was hacked within minutes :-+  The biggest roadblock is having to dial in the key one character at a time.  I'll update the firmware later tonight.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 30, 2015, 04:40:21 am
So... once again we have some conflicting reports. Several people who have installed the new firmware have reported that the scope still freezes and that the Math horizontal error is still there. Other people report that these bugs, and the trigger zoom bug, are fixed in the new firmware. Hmm....

Maybe some people have incorrect settings to reproduce the bugs.

Zoom bug fixed. See pic
50usTrigger Bug fixed. See pic
Math Bug NOT fixed. See pic
Freeze bug persist time 100ms, memory depth auto NOT fixed, but the memory settings are now saved after power down. So let's say a lill fix. I make a Video in the evening.

Firmware is official now. (00.04.03.02.03)
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

Hello,
with 00.04.03.SP2
1) now I can't see the Math bug - can anyone check it too (what procedure?)

Turn on all channels, set to average mode. MATH Chanel A+B

3) now: NO !!  Freeze bug as shown here

Input all open. Persist time set to 100ms, memory depth auto and it should be freezed if u turn on the zoom.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on October 30, 2015, 08:59:40 am
snip

I see you have 4 pages of 'horizontal' measurements on the left! I only have 3 with SP1.

Anybody have the release notes for SP2? I asked Rigol for new firmware, but they sent me the old one.

Hi
I received mail from Rigol:

Sorry sir,
   I haven't changelog file, all I know is it increase four measure
items : +Pulses,-Pulses,+Edges,-Edges.
And it increase the remote command of : image type and image format of
image storage function ; filter of Math function ; set image type in image
storage.
And it fixed some bugs.

Regards
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nrxnrx on October 30, 2015, 11:26:45 am
Sorry sir,
   I haven't changelog file, all I know is it increase four measure
items : +Pulses,-Pulses,+Edges,-Edges.
And it increase the remote command of : image type and image format of
image storage function ; filter of Math function ; set image type in image
storage.
And it fixed some bugs.

Thank you! Looks like I'll be installing this one after all.

--
Mihai
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Samogon on October 30, 2015, 12:07:14 pm
Mine is already full option DS1104Z.  :-+

This thing is really light years ahead of the usb crap that I was using before...

P.S.
This thing runs on linux right? How come It doesent need "soft" shut down?
I feel really bad by pressing the button which just cuts power to the scope...
I bet volumes mounted read only as it is configured on most embedded OS. So no open/locked files. I think it is pretty safe to switch it of by power button.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 30, 2015, 12:28:02 pm
This thing runs on linux right?

I don't think so, for two reasons:

1. There's nowhere written, neither in the pdf manual nor the printed manual, that the instrument uses GPL'ed software and that the sourcecode
   of it can be requested (which is obligatory when using GPL software).

2. If they should use Linux, they shouldn't have such a slow and buggy tcp/ip stack.

If somebody can proof the opposite, I would be happy to report it to the EFF for copyright violation...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on October 30, 2015, 03:26:49 pm
Just using the Cal signal, 2 probes, with Ch1 and Ch2 providing the A and B source selections for the MATHs A+B and A-B it all seems OK.  Only running 100 usec TB though but it does seem ok as you increase the TB.  Don't forget to set up the offset for 0 though.  Both CH1 and 2 are set for AC coupled, Acquire on average.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wirehead on October 30, 2015, 04:12:11 pm

Input all open. Persist time set to 100ms, memory depth auto and it should be freezed if u turn on the zoom.
No freeze bug here; exact same settings (all open; persist; mem depth; zoom...). I can fiddle around all day with the zoom. No freeze. Very recent scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on October 30, 2015, 05:31:04 pm
with 00.04.03.SP2
1) now I can't see the Math bug - can anyone check it too (what procedure?)

Turn on all channels, set to average mode. MATH Chanel A+B

Ok, the missing link was: only at 500ns !!! (see pic #1,#2 !!!, #3)

AND: only, if CH3 and/or CH3 ON (pic #4 with CH3/CH4 off)

3) now: NO !!  Freeze bug as shown here
Input all open. Persist time set to 100ms, memory depth auto and it should be freezed if u turn on the zoom.
The Freeze Bug, I can't reproduce it.
But: You have to wait !!! The responsetime ist VERY LONG (up to ~3 sec!) If you rotate the knob too fast, then the times maybe additional.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on October 30, 2015, 05:51:57 pm
The MATH-Bug ist not only at A+B, also at:
AxB, A&&B, A||B, !A, Dif, Exp
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Samogon on October 30, 2015, 09:34:46 pm
This thing runs on linux right?

I don't think so, for two reasons:

1. There's nowhere written, neither in the pdf manual nor the printed manual, that the instrument uses GPL'ed software and that the sourcecode
   of it can be requested (which is obligatory when using GPL software).
Quote
That easily could be proprietary.
2. If they should use Linux, they shouldn't have such a slow and buggy tcp/ip stack.
Don't know about it, had no opportunity to play with it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on October 31, 2015, 03:08:10 am
Rigol has updated their Firmware Release (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) page today.  It contains the newest DS1000Z firmware, installation procedure and release notes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on October 31, 2015, 03:17:59 am
Firmware is official now. (00.04.03.02.03)
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 31, 2015, 10:29:24 am
Quote
That easily could be proprietary.

What do you mean? You can distribute proprietary GPL'ed software? Never heard of it.
Or did you mean something else?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 31, 2015, 01:06:51 pm
Rigol has updated their Firmware Release (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) page today.  It contains the newest DS1000Z firmware, installation procedure and release notes.

Yah ... but BEWARE.  This newest firmware does not fix the Freeze Bug, or the Math Error bug, and it slows the scope's response to controls, and while it does add Pulse and Edge counters to the Horizontal Measurements menu,  it introduces a stupid spelling error: Pulses is misspelled as "Pluses" for the onscreen display.   :palm:

It does seem to fix the Trigger horizontal error bugs though.

There doesn't seem to be any way to roll back to the earlier SP1 version once you have installed this newest SP2 firmware, either.  I have email to Jason at Rigol USA about these issues. Surely there must be a way to get rid of this SP2 and go back to SP1.  If anyone knows how to do it, please post the instructions ASAP. Simply using the old GEL file from a USB stick results in the "Update was failured!" Chinglish error message.    |O

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MoYQ9wAK_E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MoYQ9wAK_E)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on November 03, 2015, 08:55:32 am
Hi
I was doing some measurements and gave me errors in RMS, I began to try and show the results, it is a sine 1Khz (Siglent SDG805) entering in 4 channels and a DMM Keysight 34461A, there are important differences between channels (first image 9%) and pressing AUTO again gets worse (second image 21%) without touching anything
This with the latest firmware (Rigol I sent him last week) self-calibration and reset to factory
Which may be happening?

Regards



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hayatepilot on November 03, 2015, 10:21:33 am
Try the same measurements with the vertical to full scale. The accuracy should be better than 3% full scale.
In your example you have a full scale of 4V. 3% of that is 120mV.  ;)

A oscilloscope is not a Multimeter.  :-DMM

Greetings
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on November 03, 2015, 10:55:17 am
I have repeated the same set up on my scope and find channel 1 is always very close to the nominal 0.357 my particular meter shows.  However the other 3 channels are between 20 and 30mv higher reading.  This is with 6 cycles displayed.  If you change the TB to display 1 cycle the reading is still very close on CH1 (343mv) but CH 2,3 and 4 become very inaccurate ~ 476mv to 485mv.  However change the display to around 20 displayed cycles and all channels read between 369 mv and 385 mv.  It looks rather as if the best way for accurate readings is to have plenty of cycles displayed!  To be fair in my case CH1 is always very close to accurate 22 displayed cycles shows 367-8 mv, 2 displayed cycles shows 358-9 mv and 1 displayed cycle shows as 342-3 mv.  The motto would appear to be use CH1 for best measurement accuracy in my case or have more cycles displayed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on November 03, 2015, 11:18:26 am
Hello,
look at the ADC-resolution and the integration-time and filtering (<300kHz) of your DMM and compare this with the 8-Bit-resolution and (not) full-scale display (<8Bit) and 2..20 cycles (~20ms @ 1kHz) of the oszilloscope.
Then you will get the answer.
LG Wolfgang
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on November 03, 2015, 11:30:18 am
Following on from my previous message using Channels 2 or 3 or 4 individually and using full screen I have a range of 362 mv to 342 mv for 22 plus displayed cycles to 1 displayed cycle.  This is an acceptable accuracy for a general purpose scope.  Other equipment would be used for higher accuracy.  So do not try and measure too many Channels simultaneously perhaps this is the best way forward.  Although my Channel 1 does seem to be accurate, as mentioned previously, with multiple channels displayed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on November 03, 2015, 12:44:28 pm
Thanks for contributions  :-+

Regards
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 03, 2015, 01:39:59 pm
A oscilloscope is not a Multimeter.  :-DMM

This.

An oscilloscope is basically looking at the position of the dots on screen for minimum/maximum values. A couple of pixels up/down can be significant.

The dots will always a bit fuzzy because radio waves can easily be picked up due to the high bandwidth of the input circuitry.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 03, 2015, 01:46:41 pm
Following on from my previous message using Channels 2 or 3 or 4 individually and using full screen I have a range of 362 mv to 342 mv for 22 plus displayed cycles to 1 displayed cycle.  This is an acceptable accuracy for a general purpose scope.  Other equipment would be used for higher accuracy.  So do not try and measure too many Channels simultaneously perhaps this is the best way forward.  Although my Channel 1 does seem to be accurate, as mentioned previously, with multiple channels displayed.

Does the 'error' change if you re-run the self calibration?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on November 03, 2015, 04:33:49 pm
I ran the Self Cal before doing those level checks.  I will try another Self Cal later and see if there are any major differences.  Incidentally I did restrict BW to 20 M on all channels to avoid possible higher frequency interference.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Dago on November 03, 2015, 05:54:39 pm
Has anyone run in to an issue where the scope does not update the screen at the proper rate?

I don't know what I managed to do or what caused it but I managed to get my DS1074 to have a very low update rate constantly. No matter what the time base was the screen was updated maybe once a second. I went through all the options and made sure I had no decoders etc. on but couldn't solve it. It was also persisting over reboots.

I just actually managed to solve it, pressing the auto button somehow restored the refresh rate. Would still like to know what caused it and has anyone else ran in to this issue.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on November 03, 2015, 07:09:03 pm
Further checks on Vrms on the Channels before and after a new Self Cal run.

Setup  1volt sine wave at 1khz.  All 4 channels AC coupled 200mv range using x10 probes to common source.
Vertical measurement Vrms set for each channel.  Bandwidth restricted to 20M.

Display size 6 divisions channels superimposed.

Displayed Cycles on Screen           CH1 mv      CH2 mv    Ch 3 mv     CH 4  mv

~50                                                368          365            366            364
~24                                                367          371            370            369
~11                                                368          371            378            377
~5                                                  369          392            392            391
~2                                                  360          427            425            424
~1                                                  344          477            474            473

Selecting Auto  Channels displayed as 4 separate traces.

Readings the same.   

Set Cal re-run.

Re-test all new readings were within 1/2 mv of the original table above.

There was some negative drift of 2-3 mv with time but whether it was the scope or my FY3200S I have no way of telling.

It does however suggest that you need around 20 cycles on screen to display reasonable accuracy for channels 2-4.
However CH1 seems to provide consistent accuracy down to 2 displayed cycles so measure with Ch1 if you want the highest accuracy for a particular signal.

Final comment these reading are all relative I do not have an absolute guaranteed 1 volt sine wave source.  My nominal meter states 357 mv with an accuracy of 1.25%.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on November 03, 2015, 08:20:20 pm
Similar result who JohnPen, without recalibration.



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 03, 2015, 08:59:01 pm
Displayed Cycles on Screen           CH1 mv      CH2 mv    Ch 3 mv     CH 4  mv

~50                                                368          365            366            364
~24                                                367          371            370            369
~11                                                368          371            378            377
~5                                                  369          392            392            391
~2                                                  360          427            425            424
~1                                                  344          477            474            473

Selecting Auto  Channels displayed as 4 separate traces.

Yep. More pixels on screen gives a better chance to see min/max values.

With only one wave visible the noise is significant.


The really interesting thing here is that channel 1 is more accurate. I'm not sure why... (luck?)



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on November 03, 2015, 09:13:29 pm
Hi
As before and 1 click in Vertical scale CH1

Regards

 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on November 03, 2015, 10:28:57 pm
Hi
As before and 1 click in Vertical scale CH1

Regards
Channel 1 is clipping on the top screen ??, move it down a bit and see what happens to the RMS value.

For correct AC RMS measurements always use AC coupling, else you can be deceived by small DC offsets on your signal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rosbuitre on November 03, 2015, 10:43:24 pm
Hi
As before and 1 click in Vertical scale CH1

Regards
Channel 1 is clipping on the top screen ??, move it down a bit and see what happens to the RMS value.

For correct AC RMS measurements always use AC coupling, else you can be deceived by small DC offsets on your signal.

Hi, move it down channel 1 and not change the value (not 'clipping').
All channels setting with AC coupling.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Samogon on November 05, 2015, 11:36:40 am
Quote
That easily could be proprietary.

What do you mean? You can distribute proprietary GPL'ed software? Never heard of it.
Or did you mean something else?
It could be QNX for example. Non GPL unix like OS.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on November 05, 2015, 03:45:55 pm
The scope computes the measurements only from the data that is displayed on the screen. So if you have partial cycles at the ends of your traces this will affect the measurement values. This is why (to a point) more cycles on the display gives better measurement accuracy.

However there really isn't any excuse for the "Pluses" counter to tell you that you have 5 "Pluses" when you actually have six showing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on November 05, 2015, 07:54:46 pm
Please note from the DS1054Z 'freeze' messages my checks regarding the pulse counting accuracy.  See below.

I can duplicate *4017 results for the 'Pluse' counting.  However I have found that it only occurs when Acquire 'Average' is set.  All other Acquire modes show the count correctly.  There appear to be 2 ways of achieving an accurate count either only use 2 displayed channels alternatively if needing all 4 channels DO NOT use Acquire mode set on 'Average'.  I have tried up to 38 pulses on the Display rather sad!

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: timofonic on November 06, 2015, 02:56:49 pm
Quote
That easily could be proprietary.

What do you mean? You can distribute proprietary GPL'ed software? Never heard of it.
Or did you mean something else?
It could be QNX for example. Non GPL unix like OS.

I don't think they would license a RTOS for this, maybe I'm wrong. They would use an Open Source one.

They can use the so called "TIVOization" approach, despite they can provide GPL sources. Did anyone looked into the firmware to see what's there?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Terry Lingle on November 12, 2015, 05:07:32 pm
I am having trouble downloading the update file on a dial up connection  it gets to about 30%  then fails.
I would like to know if others have this issue and if the file can be acquired from a different site .
Most downloads resume when i click them after a failure but the Rigol site.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 12, 2015, 05:23:11 pm
I am having trouble downloading the update file on a dial up connection  it gets to about 30%  then fails.
I would like to know if others have this issue and if the file can be acquired from a different site .
Most downloads resume when i click them after a failure but the Rigol site.

http://www.freedownloadmanager.org/ (http://www.freedownloadmanager.org/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nrxnrx on November 12, 2015, 06:42:52 pm
Hi!

Please consider not installing SP2 (the latest firmware). It has made my (and others') scope sluggish. Unless the release notes ( http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/p-0019/Bct/-/-/ct7_0/1?sid= (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/p-0019/Bct/-/-/ct7_0/1?sid=) ) show something you urgently need, I'd just install SP1 and wait.

Try the URLs below. I'll keep them up for at least a week.
It's a semi-vanilla apache server, so everything should work as expected.
To everyone else: that server is limited to ~30Mbits/s upload, but use as you please.

https://hamsterpower.org/f/rigolfw/4_03SP1.zip (https://hamsterpower.org/f/rigolfw/4_03SP1.zip)
https://hamsterpower.org/f/rigolfw/4_03SP2.zip (https://hamsterpower.org/f/rigolfw/4_03SP2.zip)
or
https://hamsterpower.org/f/rigolfw/4_03SP1.tar.xz (https://hamsterpower.org/f/rigolfw/4_03SP1.tar.xz)
https://hamsterpower.org/f/rigolfw/4_03SP2.tar.xz (https://hamsterpower.org/f/rigolfw/4_03SP2.tar.xz)


1,936,095 bytes - 4_03SP1.zip
1,927,701 bytes - 4_03SP2.zip
1,879,484 bytes - 4_03SP1.tar.xz
1,870,804 bytes - 4_03SP2.tar.xz

--
Mihai
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: c4757p on November 12, 2015, 11:35:16 pm
That's... an interesting glitch my 1kZ picked up in the middle of otherwise reasonable operation.

What the hell? :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Terry Lingle on November 13, 2015, 02:26:35 am
Thanks nrxnx  I got both files  and will follow suggestion  to not install SP2
Awsome board   
thanks all
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 14, 2015, 02:10:52 pm
I got my DS1054Z yesterday. While learning it I decided to do a bandwidth test. I used a Marconi 2022 to generate the RF and terminated the signal properly at the scope with 50 ohms. I had upgraded the firmware yesterday to 00.04.03SP2, but I did not do this test before I did that, and I have not done the "hack".

Here's the thing - this scope has a bandwidth of ~100 MHz,  I have done this test several times and checked to make sure I'm doing it right. Here's the data from the scope -

@ 1 MHz: Vpp = 208 mV
@ 50 MHz: Vpp = 178 mV (-1.3 dB)
@ 100 MHz: Vpp = 138 mV (-3.5 dB)

You can do the calc yourself - 20log(V2/V1).

So, what's going on? Am I doing something wrong?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: c4757p on November 14, 2015, 02:36:44 pm
Probably variation took the bandwidth safety margin a bit higher than usual. Mine with the "hack" tests well over 200 MHz with the risetime method, very close to the theoretical upper limit of their frontend design.

(https://misc.c4757p.com/DS1Z_QuickPrint8.png)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 14, 2015, 02:54:51 pm
Probably variation took the bandwidth safety margin a bit higher than usual. Mine with the "hack" tests well over 200 MHz with the risetime method, very close to the theoretical upper limit of their frontend design.

Huh, well cool. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something incredibly dumb. Well, I'm glad to find the scope doesn't meet it's bandwidth claims in this case.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on November 14, 2015, 03:08:05 pm
That's... an interesting glitch my 1kZ picked up in the middle of otherwise reasonable operation.

What the hell? :-//
That is a scope hardware problem !
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: c4757p on November 14, 2015, 03:12:16 pm
That's... an interesting glitch my 1kZ picked up in the middle of otherwise reasonable operation.

What the hell? :-//
That is a scope hardware problem !

Looks that way. Could be "normal", though - it's rare, I've seen it twice since I got the scope, and guess what - my TDS-380 also does something very similar.

Has anybody else seen that?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on November 14, 2015, 04:03:50 pm
Hello,
... I decided to do a bandwidth test.
look here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg743080/#msg743080 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg743080/#msg743080)
I did it long before.
LG Wolfgang
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 14, 2015, 04:11:50 pm
I did it long before.
LG Wolfgang

Whether you have done it "long before" has nothing to do with the issue I am describing. My scope does not have the 100 MHz hack. That's the point. Your graph simply shows the response of the scope with the hack. Mine has essentially a 100 MHz bandwidth without doing a hack.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: c4757p on November 14, 2015, 04:42:26 pm
Just remember, any scope will be designed above its rated bandwidth. If they designed a 50 MHz scope to sell as a 50 MHz scope, they'd have to process a whole bunch of RMAs from people who got a 49 MHz scope due to natural variations  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on November 14, 2015, 04:42:58 pm
I did it long before.
LG Wolfgang

Whether you have done it "long before" has nothing to do with the issue I am describing. My scope does not have the 100 MHz hack. That's the point. Your graph simply shows the response of the scope with the hack. Mine has essentially a 100 MHz bandwidth without doing a hack.  :-//

Did you terminate at the scope with a 50 ohm through terminator?

The 1074Z I have had a 90MHz bandwidth measured with an RF signal generator (and thru terminator), it's about 140MHz with the 100MHz liberation measured the same way.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 14, 2015, 04:51:27 pm

Did you terminate at the scope with a 50 ohm through terminator?

Yes, I specifically stated as such in the first post ...

Quote
The 1074Z I have had a 90MHz bandwidth measured with an RF signal generator (and thru terminator), it's about 140MHz with the 100MHz liberation measured the same way.

I don't know what to tell you. Mine is the DS1054Z - a 50 MHz scope, and I have measured the bandwidth numerous times today correctly, and it's about ~100 MHz. If I did anything wrong I be very happy to listen.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on November 14, 2015, 04:52:01 pm
Did you terminate at the scope with a 50 ohm through terminator?
Yes, I did. Dirctly on the scope input. No use of probes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 14, 2015, 04:58:53 pm
Yes, I did. Dirctly on the scope input. No use of probes.

I don't think he was directing that question to you ...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on November 14, 2015, 05:18:57 pm

Did you terminate at the scope with a 50 ohm through terminator?

Yes, I specifically stated as such in the first post ...

Quote
The 1074Z I have had a 90MHz bandwidth measured with an RF signal generator (and thru terminator), it's about 140MHz with the 100MHz liberation measured the same way.

I don't know what to tell you. Mine is the DS1054Z - a 50 MHz scope, and I have measured the bandwidth numerous times today correctly, and it's about ~100 MHz. If I did anything wrong I be very happy to listen.  :-//

Sorry, I missed that you'd already stated that. The 1074Z I am giving as an example, inside the front end is the same as the 1054Z, it has 70MHz already liberated out of the box. There are some digitally controlled analogue* filters in the front end that are relaxed depending in the model, or how it's liberated.

It's not 100MHz if it's 3.5dB down, it'll be something a little short of that, maybe 95MHz or so, just saying, just splitting a hair or two.

One further note, I assume this was on a single channel too, at 1GSa/s sampling. The interpolation can play some funny tricks with pulse and step generators, but as you're doing this with a sine wave it would seem unlikely.

If you're happy with your current circa 100MHz then that's cool. But you could also squeeze quite a bit more out it if you wanted to. The step test I did on my liberated 1074Z with a <50ps step generator and it showed bandwidth in excess of 150MHz (2.3ns rise time) - see 16:24 here:

http://youtu.be/mS3sCJd_GPk (http://youtu.be/mS3sCJd_GPk)

*Edited for clarity
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 14, 2015, 11:50:16 pm
Sorry, I missed that you'd already stated that.

No problem.  :)

Quote
The 1074Z I am giving as an example, inside the front end is the same as the 1054Z, it has 70MHz already liberated out of the box. There are some digitally controlled analogue* filters in the front end that are relaxed depending in the model, or how it's liberated.

Understood.

Quote
It's not 100MHz if it's 3.5dB down, it'll be something a little short of that, maybe 95MHz or so, just saying, just splitting a hair or two.

Yes, it's about that. Pretty close to 100 MHz though.

Quote
One further note, I assume this was on a single channel too, at 1GSa/s sampling. The interpolation can play some funny tricks with pulse and step generators, but as you're doing this with a sine wave it would seem unlikely.

Yes a single channel.

Quote
If you're happy with your current circa 100MHz then that's cool. But you could also squeeze quite a bit more out it if you wanted to. The step test I did on my liberated 1074Z with a <50ps step generator and it showed bandwidth in excess of 150MHz (2.3ns rise time) - see 16:24 here:

Since it's nearly 100 MHz now, I'm not too inclined to hack it. But I'm sure that it'll end up that way next year anyway.  8)

Thanks for your post.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gibol on November 15, 2015, 02:21:31 pm
126 pages on the topic... wow thats too much for me, forgive me but i have to ask.
Can ds1054z be hacked into fully functioning 100MHz scope or not? I'm considering buying this one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: c4757p on November 15, 2015, 02:37:18 pm
Yes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 15, 2015, 09:48:40 pm
I don't know what to tell you. Mine is the DS1054Z - a 50 MHz scope, and I have measured the bandwidth numerous times today correctly, and it's about ~100 MHz. If I did anything wrong I be very happy to listen.  :-//

You got lucky!

Do the hack and see what you get.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 15, 2015, 09:49:17 pm
126 pages on the topic... wow thats too much for me, forgive me but i have to ask.
Can ds1054z be hacked into fully functioning 100MHz scope or not? I'm considering buying this one.

Yes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 15, 2015, 10:34:21 pm
You got lucky!

Do the hack and see what you get.   :popcorn:

LOL - I prolly will soon because I'm too curious as to what I'll see. I'm glad I checked it first so I have something to compare it too.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orion12 on November 16, 2015, 01:31:40 am

A 'hack' is available to enable 100MHz bandwidth and a number of other features which are normally only available at additional cost. Users considering this should be aware that it is not approved by Rigol and may void the warranty. A website featuring the code generator to enable the features can be found at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/. (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/.) The code DSER enables all features except 500uV vertical resolution, which should not be used since it is not supported on this scope and will cause problems.

Can anyone provided further DETAIL(s) on the "Nature" of the "Problems Caused" by enabling the 500uV vertical resolution ?

Thanks & Cheers from Orion12 . . . I have an DS1054Z on it's way  :clap:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: weilrennwagen on November 16, 2015, 03:19:04 am
I recently updated to Firmware 00.04.03.02.03 which shows 00.04.03.SP2 on the scope. In other threads, people are talking about using SP4 a while back? Am I missing something here?

Also, when using a low-pass filter (math function) on square wave there is about 1/4 period horizontal shift in the math display.

Seems like Rigol needs to do more tweaks still.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: maxastuto on November 16, 2015, 07:43:42 am
:-// :-// helo my friend, i buy a new Rigol DS 1054Z . I noticed that all options are on trial for 35 hours that having noticed that every time he lit the oscilloscope expired time, I realized that within 3 or 4 days of use trial versions would have expired. So I immediately made the hack. I performed the procedure as well as on the website by entering the serial number of the model and the code options DSFR and immediately after the result was a code called "private key" that I did not use, and then the serial number consists of four groups of digits and letters. I added this code and all options preinstalled by "trial" became "official" 10MHz, Memory deep 24Mtps etc etc. and the name is changed to the oscilloscope DS 1104Z.
So, I think the result was excellent 100%.
In some forums but I read that you had to enter the code options DSER. Was it not necessary to enter the DSFR. I tried to enter the same data on the site key generator but I put this code options DSER: I noticed that the code "private key" is unchanged while the key code serial instead in the last two groups of letters and numbers is different.
What code was used options? the DSFR or DSER?
My oscilloscope originally had this data:
software vers. 0:04:03
board version 0.1.1.
In the event that the transaction was fair to insert the code DSER options, you can repeat the operation again by entering a second time according to the number of serial key that was entering the second code options?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: maxastuto on November 16, 2015, 07:44:52 am

 :-//To reset the options enabled by the code option that DFSR wrong, I run the following procedure: I connected the oscilloscope with the LAN cable.
software Ultra Sigma saw perfectly the connection. Then I open the option panel and SCPI command string appeared * IDN?
I plugged in the string "SYSTem: option: Uninstall
Then I clicked "send and read" but came out "error and timeout expired".
I checked out from system and DS 1104Z. Why do not you come back to the original mode DS 1054Z.
I would like to know if this procedure cancels options restoring the trial time, or eliminate them for good? Because my intentions are to have to perform again this time by entering the correct code options: DSER. What is the exact mode and how you have to write exactly the string respecting symbols, spaces, upper and lowercase letters?
Modify message
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on November 16, 2015, 09:20:06 am
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg654839/?topicseen#msg654839 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg654839/?topicseen#msg654839)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on November 16, 2015, 10:37:48 am
Due to continuing confusion over the correct option for hacking this oscilloscope, I have revised the FAQ section in the first post of the thread.

If anyone feels that it is still unclear or incorrect, please let me know.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: maxastuto on November 16, 2015, 11:14:10 am
 :)ok many thanks!  :palm:you can use the Ultra Sigma software in windows? Or you need Linux? You must use wireless LAN or you can also connect USB?
Then the word * IDN?
It should be replaced with: SYSTem OPTion Uninstall
Words have the letters in upper case and the lower case?
There are the spaces between the 3 words?
Excuse me, but are not practical writing with SCPI commands
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on November 16, 2015, 04:48:51 pm
:)ok many thanks!  :palm:you can use the Ultra Sigma software in windows? Or you need Linux? You must use wireless LAN or you can also connect USB?
Then the word * IDN?
It should be replaced with: SYSTem OPTion Uninstall
Words have the letters in upper case and the lower case?
There are the spaces between the 3 words?
Excuse me, but are not practical writing with SCPI commands

Have you followed the link provided by Fennec a few posts back to alsetalokin4017's very informative reply #1346? This should answer most of these questions.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: maxastuto on November 16, 2015, 10:33:46 pm
 :-+ :-+ ;) many many thanks rolycat! I solved the problem! it's very very simple , but i 'm confusion!
With Ultra sigma and lan connection i envoyed SYSTem:OPTIon:UNINSTall and click send command
in the display oscilloscope appeared " Option unistall success! After i connect link to web for key generator and repeat again the procedure:
insert the serial number product oscilloscope, insert the code option DSER and receive the new  serial number with the last two groups alphanumeric different from the previous one. I insert the key code with  the manual mode with knobs of the front panel oscilloscope and ... BINGO the procedure it's succefully!!! Il the list of options "official" not appeared the function 500mV... it's correct?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orion12 on November 17, 2015, 12:02:13 am
BINGO the procedure it's succefully!!! Il the list of options "official" not appeared the function 500uV... it's correct?

I think the Reason this Question on the 500uV / DS1054Z Functionality has come up Repeatedly is BECAUSE their has Not Been Enough SPECIFIC Data posted on EXACTLY What Problems setting this 500uV Option ON will produce on the DS1054Z . . . ? ? ? ( I know I also Posted about this Question )

It's been mentioned on this thread that the DS1054Z does NOT have 500uV Hardware support . . . Rigol obviously Makes this AVAILABLE in the Options Menu so WHAT Happens IF this Option is Turned-On ?
Does it Lock-Up the Scope or Create OTHER Problems ?
Or does it Simply Not Accurately Display 500uV Signals & Voltages at this 500uV / Division Setting ?

If SOMEONE could Please post some further DETAILS on this Topic . . . This confusion could be dispelled . . . Many Thanks & Cheers from Orion12  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shock on November 17, 2015, 12:37:49 am
It's not a hardware supported option, it's been discussed many times over.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on November 17, 2015, 12:48:32 am
My understanding is two fold. 
  1)  A lot of noise in the 500uV/div setting, and
  2)  The 500uV/div setting is NOT calibrated.  You may not even be able to see the trace or adjust it to be on the screen.

I think the Reason this Question on the 500mV / DS1054Z Functionality has come up Repeatedly is BECAUSE their has Not Been Enough SPECIFIC Data posted on EXACTLY What Problems setting this 500mV Option ON will produce on the DS1054Z . . . ? ? ? ( I know I also Posted about this Question )

It's been mentioned on this thread that the DS1054Z does NOT have 500vM Hardware support . . . Rigol obviously Makes this AVAILABLE in the Options Menu so WHAT Happens IF this Option is Turned-On ?
Does it Lock-Up the Scope or Create OTHER Problems ?
Or does it Simply Not Accurately Display 500mV Signals & Voltages at this 500mV / Division Setting ?

If SOMEONE could Please post some further DETAILS on this Topic . . . This confusion could be dispelled . . . Many Thanks & Cheers from Orion12  :-+

NOT A CHANCE.  Because people are unwilling to read!  This has been discussed on page 113 of this thread.  ONLY 14 pages back!

Sorry but I count how many times this has been discussed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on November 17, 2015, 11:15:37 am
My understanding is two fold. 
  1)  A lot of noise in the 500uV/div setting, and
  2)  The 500uV/div setting is NOT calibrated.  You may not even be able to see the trace or adjust it to be on the screen.

I think the Reason this Question on the 500mV / DS1054Z Functionality has come up Repeatedly is BECAUSE their has Not Been Enough SPECIFIC Data posted on EXACTLY What Problems setting this 500mV Option ON will produce on the DS1054Z . . . ? ? ? ( I know I also Posted about this Question )

It's been mentioned on this thread that the DS1054Z does NOT have 500vM Hardware support . . . Rigol obviously Makes this AVAILABLE in the Options Menu so WHAT Happens IF this Option is Turned-On ?
Does it Lock-Up the Scope or Create OTHER Problems ?
Or does it Simply Not Accurately Display 500mV Signals & Voltages at this 500mV / Division Setting ?

If SOMEONE could Please post some further DETAILS on this Topic . . . This confusion could be dispelled . . . Many Thanks & Cheers from Orion12  :-+

NOT A CHANCE.  Because people are unwilling to read!  This has been discussed on page 113 of this thread.  ONLY 14 pages back!

Sorry but I count how many times this has been discussed.

Correct, it has been discussed many times. These are my findings:

The 500uV is derived digitally, the ADC resolution doesn't improve, so you get to see the discrete ADC steps very obviously on the display.

The DC offset isn't calibrated out: in my case, one channel's not too far off, but the other three are miles out, and some are so far out they cannot be manually pulled onto the display at all.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orion12 on November 17, 2015, 12:51:09 pm
My understanding is two fold. 
  1)  A lot of noise in the 500uV/div setting, and
  2)  The 500uV/div setting is NOT calibrated.  You may not even be able to see the trace or adjust it to be on the screen.

I think the Reason this Question on the 500uV / DS1054Z Functionality has come up Repeatedly is BECAUSE their has Not Been Enough SPECIFIC Data posted on EXACTLY What Problems setting this 500uV Option ON will produce on the DS1054Z . . . ? ? ? ( I know I also Posted about this Question )

It's been mentioned on this thread that the DS1054Z does NOT have 500uM Hardware support . . . Rigol obviously Makes this AVAILABLE in the Options Menu so WHAT Happens IF this Option is Turned-On ?
Does it Lock-Up the Scope or Create OTHER Problems ?
Or does it Simply Not Accurately Display 500uV Signals & Voltages at this 500uV / Division Setting ?

If SOMEONE could Please post some further DETAILS on this Topic . . . This confusion could be dispelled . . . Many Thanks & Cheers from Orion12  :-+

NOT A CHANCE.  Because people are unwilling to read!  This has been discussed on page 113 of this thread.  ONLY 14 pages back!

Sorry but I count how many times this has been discussed.

Correct, it has been discussed many times. These are my findings:

The 500uV is derived digitally, the ADC resolution doesn't improve, so you get to see the discrete ADC steps very obviously on the display.

The DC offset isn't calibrated out: in my case, one channel's not too far off, but the other three are miles out, and some are so far out they cannot be manually pulled onto the display at all.

Many thanks for this Level of Detail & Understanding of this Topic . . . For ME this Answers most of MY Questions . . . This Of Course LEAVES the Question . . . CAN a CALIBRATION METHOD BE DEVELOPED ?

For NOW I'm NOT Going to OPT for the 500uV Option when I receive my NewBee DS1054Z which should come in Thursday . . .  :scared:

Thanks Again for EVERYONE's Attention & Response to this Question . . . Cheers from Orion12  :clap:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 17, 2015, 12:54:16 pm
Many thanks for this Level of Detail & Understanding of this Topic . . . For ME this Answers most of MY Questions . . . This Of Course LEAVES the Question . . . CAN a CALIBRATION METHOD BE DEVELOPED ?

For NOW I'm NOT Going to OPT for the 500uV Option when I receive my NewBee DS1054Z which should come in Thursday . . .  :scared:

Maybe you can use it to investigate your keyboard. The caps lock key seems to have an intermittent fault.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on November 17, 2015, 02:59:24 pm
Maybe you can use it to investigate your keyboard. The caps lock key seems to have an intermittent fault.

 :-DD  You just made my day, thanks!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on November 17, 2015, 03:38:04 pm
Many thanks for this Level of Detail & Understanding of this Topic . . . For ME this Answers most of MY Questions . . . This Of Course LEAVES the Question . . . CAN a CALIBRATION METHOD BE DEVELOPED ?

Sure it can.  You need to get a software developer job with Rigol...... ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: timofonic on November 17, 2015, 11:09:14 pm
Many thanks for this Level of Detail & Understanding of this Topic . . . For ME this Answers most of MY Questions . . . This Of Course LEAVES the Question . . . CAN a CALIBRATION METHOD BE DEVELOPED ?

Sure it can.  You need to get a software developer job with Rigol...... ;D

No! He would remove all the Rigol "fun" and get totally insane in the process. And finally the firmware would end  totally broken, not because of you but their insane ways.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on November 19, 2015, 04:22:50 pm
People are unwilling to read!  This has been discussed on page 113 of this thread.  ONLY 14 pages back!
Sorry but I count how many times this has been discussed.

The problem is that in this forum there is a thread for all about a device, then if someone has "something" to do in his life other than reading the forum he can't read ALL the posts looking for a topic... :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on November 19, 2015, 04:57:42 pm
People are unwilling to read!  This has been discussed on page 113 of this thread.  ONLY 14 pages back!
Sorry but I count how many times this has been discussed.

The problem is that in this forum there is a thread for all about a device, then if someone has "something" to do in his life other than reading the forum he can't read ALL the posts looking for a topic... :)

Hence, the SEARCH button!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 19, 2015, 06:13:11 pm
Hence, the SEARCH button!

Be sure to use the Search link (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/search/) in the navigation menu near the top of the page. The search box isn't as effective.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on November 19, 2015, 06:17:05 pm
Also the search in the thread will find more results than the main page search, but you can use that one to find the threads where something its been discussed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: timofonic on November 19, 2015, 06:39:09 pm
The forums needs wiki integration. Here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/geekhackdeskthority-forumwiki-integration/msg775793/)'s a WIP post explaining it, I'll expand and bump it once finished.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 19, 2015, 07:01:06 pm
The search box isn't as effective is completely useless.

FTFY.

I use google. Just google "EEVBLOG xxxxxx" and you'll get a far better result than the forum search.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MAS3 on November 19, 2015, 10:09:18 pm
Add this to your Google search.

site:eevblog.com/forum

Works with any site, of course.
I'm not sure the /forum part will actually work, but it seemed to do so when i just tested it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 19, 2015, 11:24:48 pm
Yes, site: works with domain and any partial path information desired to refine the search scope.

e.g.,

site:eevblog.com searches all of EEVBlog
site:eevblog.com/forum searches all pages that begin with eevblog.com/forum
site:eevblog.com/forum/testgear searches all pages in the Test Gear forum
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orion12 on November 20, 2015, 12:59:30 am
Many thanks for this Level of Detail & Understanding of this Topic . . . For ME this Answers most of MY Questions . . . This Of Course LEAVES the Question . . . CAN a CALIBRATION METHOD BE DEVELOPED ?

Sure it can.  You need to get a software developer job with Rigol...... ;D

If I did that THEN I'd Be Feeding the Conventional Corporate Money System . . . We ALL Know Where that Leads . . . ( You know - Retirement on a Private Island - Maybe in Your Dreams )

No! He would remove all the Rigol "fun" and get totally insane in the process. And finally the firmware would end  totally broken, not because of you but their insane ways.

Another APPLICATION Might Be to Use ALL this "Brain Power" & "Expertise" from Forum Members to "Engineer" the Ultimate Affordable Multi-Scope and THEN Open-Source it Out for Mfg Worldwide . . .
Keeping in Mind of Course that ALL Designs of Potential Futures / Simply Start with an Idea . . .

btw : I just recieved my NewBee Rigol DS1054Z or should I say DS1104Z 100Mhz Scope . . . What a Nice New Techie Toy . . . Thanks again for ALL of Your Inputs & Advises :clap:
Cheers from Orion12  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 20, 2015, 01:14:59 am
btw : I just recieved my NewBee Rigol DS1054Z or should I say DS1104Z 100Mhz Scope . . . What a Nice New Techie Toy . . . Thanks again for ALL of Your Inputs & Advises :clap:
Cheers from Orion12  :)

I'm GLAD you are ENJOYING it! I like mine ALSO - even WITHOUT the hack it is BETTER than I expected.

 :-+ :clap: 8)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on November 20, 2015, 07:37:31 am
Even better, use Google and write: site:eevblog.com/forum/ your search string
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: crispy_tofu on November 20, 2015, 08:38:16 am
@Karel, look 4 posts up  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on November 20, 2015, 09:41:05 am
...but do you think that a well-structured forum would be too simple to use?  ;)
Look, i.e., at homestudioitalia forum: there is a thread for each topic, then you don't have to fish for something in a vegetable soup  :D
In Test Equipment there would be a sub section >DSO, then >Rigol, then >DS1054Z issues / DS1054 mods / DS1054 hits and in each one a thread for each topic, in which each one talks about the same thing!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on November 20, 2015, 10:20:22 am
btw : I just recieved my NewBee Rigol DS1054Z or should I say DS1104Z 100Mhz Scope . . . What a Nice New Techie Toy . . . Thanks again for ALL of Your Inputs & Advises :clap:
Cheers from Orion12  :)
I'm GLAD you are ENJOYING it! I like mine ALSO - even WITHOUT the hack it is BETTER than I expected.
 :-+ :clap: 8)

xrunner, you are behind the fashion curve here ;-)
Orion12 has "Already" identified the next big "Trend" of using "Quotation Marks" instead of old-fashioned CAPS...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on November 20, 2015, 11:52:11 am
@Karel, look 4 posts up  ;)

Oops...  :-[
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on November 21, 2015, 12:15:01 am
Girlz !

http://en.lmgtfy.com/?q=eevblog+chatroom (http://en.lmgtfy.com/?q=eevblog+chatroom)

Back to topic, okay ?!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 21, 2015, 02:21:01 am
Back to topic, okay ?!

OK.  :)

I locked up my DS1054Z. Using the Math > FFT function. Locked it up hard. No buttons or knobs would work at all. Frozen. Had to power off/on. Guess I pushed it to it's limits.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jrevard on November 21, 2015, 03:10:33 am
...but do you think that a well-structured forum would be too simple to use?  ;)
Look, i.e., at homestudioitalia forum: there is a thread for each topic, then you don't have to fish for something in a vegetable soup  :D
In Test Equipment there would be a sub section >DSO, then >Rigol, then >DS1054Z issues / DS1054 mods / DS1054 hits and in each one a thread for each topic, in which each one talks about the same thing!

Yes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Alfons on November 26, 2015, 08:11:53 pm
The device is still great! No problems with the device. Very nice to have four channels available. I test the layout of my DIY soldering / desoldering-station and see the phase control with all signals: channels 1 + 2 connected as a differential probe for earth-free AC voltage-measurement of the soldering iron, channel 3 shows the zero crossing pulses, channel 4 the trigger pulses of the function generator. Tomorrow I'm starting to program the processor.  ;D

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 26, 2015, 08:44:25 pm
...but do you think that a well-structured forum would be too simple to use?  ;)
Look, i.e., at homestudioitalia forum: there is a thread for each topic, then you don't have to fish for something in a vegetable soup  :D
In Test Equipment there would be a sub section >DSO, then >Rigol, then >DS1054Z issues / DS1054 mods / DS1054 hits and in each one a thread for each topic, in which each one talks about the same thing!

Yes.

...unless you just come here for a general sort of chat and don't want to have to go through all of the 10,000 sub-forums that system would create in case there might be something interesting there (with only one or two lonely threads in each).

And the quality of chat would go waaaay down because nobody would bother coming here except for buying advice (which wouldn't be there any more - see above).


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: c4757p on November 26, 2015, 09:08:11 pm
Organization is for paper, search is for computers. Why do you need a hundred categories each with some weirdly specific thing in them, when you can just search the forum for "DS1054Z", "DS1054Z issues", etc.?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Alfons on November 26, 2015, 09:14:42 pm
Anyway ... I am amazed that the device manages to represent quasi 5 channels. Channels 1 + 2 = + differential signal + channel 3 +. 4. And it remains still fluid operated. I know older, essential expensive devices that does not make it. So do not just look at what it can not. :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on November 27, 2015, 05:30:26 am
Anyway ... I am amazed that the device manages to represent quasi 5 channels. Channels 1 + 2 = + differential signal + channel 3 +. 4. And it remains still fluid operated. I know older, essential expensive devices that does not make it. So do not just look at what it can not. :)
Set it up like that with a Math trace, put up some Measurements, and wait a while and see what happens...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faCNVDCHMbs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faCNVDCHMbs)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marcos on November 27, 2015, 12:41:35 pm
It's normal when switching timebase from let's say 1sec to 2sec or greater to have a huge delay (tens of seconds) till the scope is active again ?
It will not show any refreshed trace during this time.
Also, moving probe wire even if the probe is GND connected will increase or decrease the noise on trace. Isn't this supposed to be a steady "ground" reference ?
Looks like everything is "floating" inside this scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 27, 2015, 01:04:54 pm
It's normal when switching timebase from let's say 1sec to 2sec or greater to have a huge delay (tens of seconds) till the scope is active again ?
Yes.

It will not show any refreshed trace during this time.

It won't start again until it fills up the internal memory buffer (which is adjustable in size...there's your clue!)

Also, moving probe wire even if the probe is GND connected will increase or decrease the noise on trace.

Only if you set it to 1mV.

Isn't this supposed to be a steady "ground" reference ?
Welcome to the real world!

Radio noise is everywhere, even inside oscilloscopes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marcos on November 27, 2015, 01:27:20 pm
It's normal when switching timebase from let's say 1sec to 2sec or greater to have a huge delay (tens of seconds) till the scope is active again ?
Yes.

It will not show any refreshed trace during this time.

It won't start again until it fills up the internal memory buffer (which is adjustable in size...there's your clue!)

Indeed, if I set the MemDepth to 12K is much faster than Auto. But not instantly as I have seen on different other oscilloscopes (regular ones) Cheers for that :)
Check 25.30

https://youtu.be/CzY2abWCVTY



Also, moving probe wire even if the probe is GND connected will increase or decrease the noise on trace.

Only if you set it to 1mV.

You mean 10mV? I don't have such a low voltage set into mine.
Problem is even on 20mV is the same. And using the calibrator signal the horizontal lines from trace get bolder or thinner doing the same.


Isn't this supposed to be a steady "ground" reference ?
Welcome to the real world!

Radio noise is everywhere, even inside oscilloscopes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 27, 2015, 03:08:45 pm
Also, moving probe wire even if the probe is GND connected will increase or decrease the noise on trace.
Only if you set it to 1mV.
You mean 10mV?
Yes, you can probably see it there, too.

It's normal, just cosmic noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znwp0pK8Tzk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znwp0pK8Tzk)


PS: If it looks non-random then it might be "common mode" noise from your lights or whatever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFLZm4LbzQU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFLZm4LbzQU)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 27, 2015, 04:17:47 pm
Set it up like that with a Math trace, put up some Measurements, and wait a while and see what happens...

Hi alsetalokin4017,

I watched your video and the others on your YouTube channel, and thought I'd try to duplicate the math hang. Please see attached image. I let it run for 8,332 counts (which is a lot more than I saw in your videos) and took a snapshot, it never stopped. Even as I'm posting this it's still running over 10k counts now.

When I put in the USB stick to save the image, I had forgot that the firmware update file was still there that I had used last time to update the machine, and I accidentally selected "OK" and it re-updated the firmware file as it was taking statistics, but even that didn't make it hang - interesting.

If you want me to try something different I'll see what I can do here.  :)


Edit: Now over 11k counts ...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Alfons on November 27, 2015, 05:56:35 pm
Anyway ... I am amazed that the device manages to represent quasi 5 channels. Channels 1 + 2 = + differential signal + channel 3 +. 4. And it remains still fluid operated. I know older, essential expensive devices that does not make it. So do not just look at what it can not. :)
Set it up like that with a Math trace, put up some Measurements, and wait a while and see what happens...

Frankly enough time goes on it for it to discover the error in my circuits. The possible error of Rigol are not surfaced with me so far and I've measured very much with the device. Clearly it has quirks, but nothing that significantly affects the function. I've been using the device since about 1 month. In a silly incorrect measurement a few tracks and a few transistors are vaporized me, but the unit has survived without complaint. :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on November 27, 2015, 06:11:14 pm
In the video clip from Siglent about the new SDS2000X they talk about "digital trigger" that gives better performance in contrast with "analog trigger" on other DSO scopes.

"Traditional digital storage oscilloscopes use analog trigger technology, but Siglent oscilloscopes implement a digital trigger system using a digital comparator and digital time-to-digital converter. This overcomes the shortcomings of analog trigger circuits completely and provides high trigger sensitivity and low trigger jitter."

Does Rigol have the same? Also on the DS1054Z or only on the DS2000 series?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on November 27, 2015, 06:40:19 pm
Set it up like that with a Math trace, put up some Measurements, and wait a while and see what happens...

Hi alsetalokin4017,

I watched your video and the others on your YouTube channel, and thought I'd try to duplicate the math hang. Please see attached image. I let it run for 8,332 counts (which is a lot more than I saw in your videos) and took a snapshot, it never stopped. Even as I'm posting this it's still running over 10k counts now.

When I put in the USB stick to save the image, I had forgot that the firmware update file was still there that I had used last time to update the machine, and I accidentally selected "OK" and it re-updated the firmware file as it was taking statistics, but even that didn't make it hang - interesting.

If you want me to try something different I'll see what I can do here.  :)


Edit: Now over 11k counts ...

The bug seems to come along with the SP2 firmware. The measurements will freeze at random times when the conditions are met. Rarely for me will it go to 8k or 10k counts but it can indeed wait that long sometimes.

I've reported this to Rigol USA and they have reproduced the bug on their test scopes without difficulty. They have assigned "Case Number 9147" to the bug and are working on some kind of fix. Meanwhile the workaround that I'm using is to have the Math set up but turned OFF in the Math menu until I need to actually observe or record a reading, then turn the Math on for as short a time as possible, then turn it back off again. This will (I think) keep the Measurements running. But work quickly, because the Measurements can freeze after just a few hundred counts, sometimes less than a minute, with Math ON.

Here are some test results from two different scopes I've tested, the "Old Scope" is the one running Boot Version 0.0.1.2 that I've returned to Rigol, and the "New Scope" is the one with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 that they sent me as a replacement, which does not have the Freeze Bug problem. As you can see both will have the Measurements fail after random times, sometimes very quickly and sometimes not so fast. Both are running the latest SP2 firmware.

Old Scope:
stopped at 7k14
stopped at 8k326
(still running at over 19k with no input signals)
stopped at 5k171
stopped at 279
stopped at 4k51

New Scope:
(still running at over 23k with no input signals)
stopped at 715
stopped at 10k272
stopped at 1k37
stopped at 3k910 with no input signals!
(still running at 13k240 with no input signals)

So at 3 or 4 sample counts per second it could take an hour or more for the measurements to stop, or it could take as little as one minute or even less.

I've attached a simple Setup file (inside a zipfile for upload here) which you can use to try to reproduce the bug. Don't worry, it's nothing fancy, just normal Math using two channels and pretty much default settings everywhere else. Unzip it, copy to a USB stick and load it into your scope. Provide some signals for the Math to work on, and wait and watch.

As I said I think this bug affects the scopes with the latest firmware SP2. I discovered it only after I had already upgraded to SP2 so I haven't specifically tested for it on the earlier firmware. I did use SP1 for a long time though (months of daily use including Math) on the "Old Scope" and never noticed it.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on November 27, 2015, 06:42:49 pm
Anyway ... I am amazed that the device manages to represent quasi 5 channels. Channels 1 + 2 = + differential signal + channel 3 +. 4. And it remains still fluid operated. I know older, essential expensive devices that does not make it. So do not just look at what it can not. :)
Set it up like that with a Math trace, put up some Measurements, and wait a while and see what happens...

Frankly enough time goes on it for it to discover the error in my circuits. The possible error of Rigol are not surfaced with me so far and I've measured very much with the device. Clearly it has quirks, but nothing that significantly affects the function. I've been using the device since about 1 month. In a silly incorrect measurement a few tracks and a few transistors are vaporized me, but the unit has survived without complaint. :)

Really? Does your scope do this:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 27, 2015, 06:51:24 pm
The bug seems to come along with the SP2 firmware. The measurements will freeze at random times when the conditions are met. Rarely for me will it go to 8k or 10k counts but it can indeed wait that long sometimes.

I see, well if you have indeed had one go that high then let's see if I can beat it. I currently have a session going now and it's up to 12k counts.

Quote
I've reported this to Rigol USA and they have reproduced the bug on their test scopes without difficulty. ...

Read and noted.  :-+

Quote
I've attached a simple Setup file (inside a zipfile for upload here) which you can use to try to reproduce the bug. Don't worry, it's nothing fancy, just normal Math using two channels and pretty much default settings everywhere else. Unzip it, copy to a USB stick and load it into your scope. Provide some signals for the Math to work on, and wait and watch.

OK so you want to set me up huh?  ;)

Let me see how high this current math count goes and I'll give it a whirl ... now at 13k ...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Alfons on November 27, 2015, 07:16:59 pm
Anyway ... I am amazed that the device manages to represent quasi 5 channels. Channels 1 + 2 = + differential signal + channel 3 +. 4. And it remains still fluid operated. I know older, essential expensive devices that does not make it. So do not just look at what it can not. :)
Set it up like that with a Math trace, put up some Measurements, and wait a while and see what happens...

Frankly enough time goes on it for it to discover the error in my circuits. The possible error of Rigol are not surfaced with me so far and I've measured very much with the device. Clearly it has quirks, but nothing that significantly affects the function. I've been using the device since about 1 month. In a silly incorrect measurement a few tracks and a few transistors are vaporized me, but the unit has survived without complaint. :)

Really? Does your scope do this:

???? What are the scaling options in the Math menu?

Here everything is correct:

Title: Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope - new 2 faults (?)
Post by: ankerwolf on November 27, 2015, 07:28:58 pm
Hello,
what's that?
Sorry, I don't know what I did before.

1) Suddenly T'D changed to blinking AUTO and the signals ... ??? grrrr
AmplitudeError.mp4
https://youtu.be/mtfrbv4rSuQ

2) Suddenly some buttons don't work and MATH is freezing !
MathMeasure-Freeze#1.mp4
https://youtu.be/YFlbXBPpsos

LG Wolfgang
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 27, 2015, 07:36:43 pm
So at 3 or 4 sample counts per second it could take an hour or more for the measurements to stop, or it could take as little as one minute or even less.

Welp ... I let mine go for about 1.6 hours - over 20k counts and it kept right on truckin'. I saw no sign of the stats freezing so I stopped it. I doubt I'd ever use it like that for that long anyways.  :-//

But - some people might let it run all night.

However, I will use your setup file and conduct a test later this afternoon. Be interesting to see what happens. If it does freeze ... be interesting to speculate on the reason.

Stay tuned ...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on November 27, 2015, 08:22:40 pm
Anyway ... I am amazed that the device manages to represent quasi 5 channels. Channels 1 + 2 = + differential signal + channel 3 +. 4. And it remains still fluid operated. I know older, essential expensive devices that does not make it. So do not just look at what it can not. :)
Set it up like that with a Math trace, put up some Measurements, and wait a while and see what happens...

Frankly enough time goes on it for it to discover the error in my circuits. The possible error of Rigol are not surfaced with me so far and I've measured very much with the device. Clearly it has quirks, but nothing that significantly affects the function. I've been using the device since about 1 month. In a silly incorrect measurement a few tracks and a few transistors are vaporized me, but the unit has survived without complaint. :)

Really? Does your scope do this:

???? What are the scaling options in the Math menu?

Here everything is correct:

The Math Horizontal error I showed only happens at 500 ns/division, thankfully. It affects both SP1 and SP2 firmware.

Title: Re: Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope - new 2 faults (?)
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on November 27, 2015, 08:29:28 pm
Hello,
what's that?
Sorry, I don't know what I did before.

1) Suddenly T'D changed to blinking AUTO and the signals ... ??? grrrr
AmplitudeError.mp4
https://youtu.be/mtfrbv4rSuQ

2) Suddenly some buttons don't work and MATH is freezing !
MathMeasure-Freeze#1.mp4
https://youtu.be/YFlbXBPpsos

LG Wolfgang

In your first video I think you have simply lost the Trigger. Look at the Trigger level indicator on the right side of the screen... it is above the highest peak of the channel you are trying to trigger on. I think you are also in "average" acquire mode which is why the amplitude levels are changing the way they are when the trigger is lost.

I don't know quite what is going on in your second video, I can't see the scope's settings well enough. But it often takes several seconds for the Math and Measurements to catch up when a setting is changed, particularly the Horizontal timebase or the Trigger level.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on November 27, 2015, 08:36:21 pm
So at 3 or 4 sample counts per second it could take an hour or more for the measurements to stop, or it could take as little as one minute or even less.

Welp ... I let mine go for about 1.6 hours - over 20k counts and it kept right on truckin'. I saw no sign of the stats freezing so I stopped it. I doubt I'd ever use it like that for that long anyways.  :-//

But - some people might let it run all night.

However, I will use your setup file and conduct a test later this afternoon. Be interesting to see what happens. If it does freeze ... be interesting to speculate on the reason.

Stay tuned ...  :popcorn:

I use the scope in my work and it is often on continuously for four hours or longer or even overnight, depending on the kinds of testing I am running.

Can you do a display of your complete System Information screen so we can see your scope's full software suite?  To get this display you have to press, in the Trigger area, Menu>Menu>Force>Menu very rapidly, then in Utility>System>System Info. If you don't succeed at first, press the button sequence faster.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 27, 2015, 10:45:33 pm
I loaded your setup file and did another test. It hung up at 3466 counts. So, it's interesting that using the same signals, it couldn't get nearly as far. I wonder what the quirk is about it? See attachments.

Can you do a display of your complete System Information screen so we can see your scope's full software suite?  To get this display you have to press, in the Trigger area, Menu>Menu>Force>Menu very rapidly, then in Utility>System>System Info. If you don't succeed at first, press the button sequence faster.

Please see attachment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on November 27, 2015, 11:07:56 pm
I loaded your setup file and did another test. It hung up at 3466 counts. So, it's interesting that using the same signals, it couldn't get nearly as far. I wonder what the quirk is about it? See attachments.

Can you do a display of your complete System Information screen so we can see your scope's full software suite?  To get this display you have to press, in the Trigger area, Menu>Menu>Force>Menu very rapidly, then in Utility>System>System Info. If you don't succeed at first, press the button sequence faster.

Please see attachment.
I wonder too. You could go through the settings in my .stp file and compare them with yours to see if there is some critical difference lurking in there. We both seem to be running the same software suite at least.

I just turned on the scope to see if positioning the Math trace at the bottom instead of the center made a difference... and the Measurements froze after only _12 counts_ after I turned the Math on, a new "low record" for me. I sure wish there was another way to get them back without power-cycling the scope. By far most of the start cycles on my present unit are due to this bug.

Thanks for persevering, sorry that you have the bug too. But at least Rigol are working on it... supposedly...    :'(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on November 28, 2015, 04:10:15 pm
Post-hack data update

Before hack -

@ 1 MHz: Vpp = 208 mV
@ 50 MHz: Vpp = 178 mV (-1.3 dB)
@ 100 MHz: Vpp = 138 mV (-3.5 dB)


The true -3 dB bandwidth was 95 MHz


After hack (using same ref voltage)-

@ 1 MHz: Vpp = 208 mV
@ 50 MHz: Vpp = 194 mV (-0.6 dB)
@ 100 MHz: Vpp = 162 mV (-2.2 dB)
@ 150 MHz: Vpp = 136 mV (-3.7 dB)


The official -3 dB bandwidth now occurs @ 135 MHz (147 mV).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Ysjoelfir on November 30, 2015, 09:02:04 pm
I recently ordered the DS1054Z and can't await its arrival! Since this is my first digital scope (but I am used to analog scopes) I wonder if there are some tips and advice you could give me, or point me towards some introductional videos, since I didn't find anything except this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/common-misunderstandings-about-digital-oscilloscopes/msg724585/#msg724585 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/common-misunderstandings-about-digital-oscilloscopes/msg724585/#msg724585)
I am quite sure this was discussed before, maybe even from dave himself, but I really can't find what I'm looking for.

I would love to use the spare time while waiting for it to arrive to learn how to really use a DSO correctly to avoid this ->  :-BROKE

Any advice is very much apreciated! thanks! :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2015, 10:00:40 pm
I would love to use the spare time while waiting for it to arrive to learn how to really use a DSO correctly

Download the manual and read it...?

to avoid this ->  :-BROKE  Any advice is very much apreciated! thanks! :)

It's no more likely to break then an analog 'scope. The same precautions apply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaELqAo4kkQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaELqAo4kkQ)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Ysjoelfir on November 30, 2015, 10:38:58 pm
Hi fungus,
At first I have to say that I already watched the video some weeks before as I am going through all his videos right now. But I actually knew that already, I did even find a mistake in one of the lab experiments we do at university which lead to random distruction of the tek DSOs they are using because the experiment wanted you to measure the mains with one channel and a circuit connected to mains with the other channel.. And the experimental mains outlet and the outlet for the oscilloscopes were both mains earth referenced.. So I actually know how not to fry my scope :) shouldn't have used that emoticon I guess..

So what I wanted to know was mainly, if there are some special points in handling the rigol scope, or if there are common mistakes done by CRT to DSO switchers that could be avoided. Stuff beyond the manual I mean.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: crispy_tofu on November 30, 2015, 10:42:45 pm
I would love to use the spare time while waiting for it to arrive to learn how to really use a DSO correctly

Might be useful: https://courses.physics.illinois.edu/phys193/Labs/XYZs_of_Oscilloscopes.pdf  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vk6zgo on December 01, 2015, 01:37:55 am
Hi fungus,
At first I have to say that I already watched the video some weeks before as I am going through all his videos right now. But I actually knew that already, I did even find a mistake in one of the lab experiments we do at university which lead to random distruction of the tek DSOs they are using because the experiment wanted you to measure the mains with one channel and a circuit connected to mains with the other channel.. And the experimental mains outlet and the outlet for the oscilloscopes were both mains earth referenced.. So I actually know how not to fry my scope :) shouldn't have used that emoticon I guess..

So what I wanted to know was mainly, if there are some special points in handling the rigol scope, or if there are common mistakes done by CRT to DSO switchers that could be avoided. Stuff beyond the manual I mean.

I don't have any type of DSO,but from the various threads on this forum,it seems like the DS1054Z,& modern DSOs in general,are fairly
user-friendly------much more so than the early ones,which were nightmarish!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2015, 09:02:22 am
So what I wanted to know was mainly, if there are some special points in handling the rigol scope, or if there are common mistakes done by CRT to DSO switchers that could be avoided. Stuff beyond the manual I mean.

No.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Ysjoelfir on December 01, 2015, 10:31:50 am
Might be useful: https://courses.physics.illinois.edu/phys193/Labs/XYZs_of_Oscilloscopes.pdf  :)

That is definitely usefull, there is that type of detail information I was looking for! Thanks a lot!

I don't have any type of DSO,but from the various threads on this forum,it seems like the DS1054Z,& modern DSOs in general,are fairly
user-friendly------much more so than the early ones,which were nightmarish!

Yeah, I know.. I have a LeCroy 9400A which was for its time quite nice I guess, but hell it's a pain in the ass to use! I actually printed some instructions, to example "how to get to single shot mode". But I guess that is as always a questioin of familiarisation, and since the LeCroy died (again... I repaired it just some weeks ago) last week I am sick of it and decided to get a decent real digital scope.
But it's good to know that the general usability of modern DSOs is quite nice compared to old ones, so I guess I shouldn't have to much struggle getting used to it :)

No.
ok
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on December 01, 2015, 10:42:41 am
Yes.   ;)

Expecting more precision than is actually delivered by the scope's A-D converter system... and being fooled by waveform aliasing artifacts...

What you see on a DSO is not always what your actual signal should look like. This topic is covered to some extent in the scope's manual, but there really isn't room there for a comprehensive treatment. There has even been some discussion here as to whether or not the DS1054Z correctly implements the sin(x)/x interpolation algorithm properly.

Some DSO signal artifacts can approach "art":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-Op1_Ka8g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-Op1_Ka8g)

Also, a low-end DSO like the DS1054Z doesn't do as well in the X-Y mode compared to even a basic analog scope. You can see the difference in various videos that compare the display of the "oscillofun" track between DSO and analog scope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tsG4DMBDvk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tsG4DMBDvk)

Still... you'll like using the DSO very much. I'm hardly ever using my analog scopes any more.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark on December 01, 2015, 12:05:13 pm
Is there any way of saving all of the screens captured during a "waveform record" session? 
I have 200 waveforms at a time and currently only save off the interesting looking ones, but it gets time consuming if there are a lot of such waveforms.  Ideally I would like all the captures saved off automatically as screen prints.  Any way to do this or should I get my camera out and record the screen as the oscilloscope plays the waveforms? 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: doktor pyta on December 05, 2015, 11:01:50 am
Below You will find step response of my hacked Rigol DS1054Z (100MHz). This test was performed using Tektronix 284 70ps pulse generator to check if there is any ringing.
Pictures for time base settings: 5ns/div and 50ns/div.
Results: quite good.
Edit: Especially for Fungus I'll read the risetime measurement shown on the upper picture: 3,2ns.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 07, 2015, 08:38:11 am
Below You will find step response of my hacked Rigol DS1054Z (100MHz). This test was performed using Tektronix 284 70ps pulse generator to check if there is any ringing.
Pictures for time base settings: 5ns/div and 50ns/div.
Results: quite good.
"quite good" isn't an engineering term.

There's a button over on the left that displays a value labelled "rise time" on screen...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Maf on December 10, 2015, 09:58:57 pm
First things first - hi everyone!

I have a question to the DS1054Z users: despite all the recent problems with the scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/)), is it still worth buying it? Are there any known "big" problems that make the daily usage of the scope problematic? Is Rigol known for fixing their bugs? The Christmas is coming and I still didn't decide whether to buy the scope and hope for the fixes or wait/buy another model.
Thanks in advance for your opinions.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on December 10, 2015, 10:31:49 pm
First things first - hi everyone!

I have a question to the DS1054Z users: despite all the recent problems with the scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/)), is it still worth buying it? Are there any known "big" problems that make the daily usage of the scope problematic? Is Rigol known for fixing their bugs? The Christmas is coming and I still didn't decide whether to buy the scope and hope for the fixes or wait/buy another model.
Thanks in advance for your opinions.
Despite the bugs, it's still quite usable and one heck of a bargain as well (can't be beaten on value ATM in fact). As per fixing the bugs, Rigol has been working on it (firmware release notes from 6/16/2015 are attached as an example as they're not the latest).

My recommendation is go ahead and buy one.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on December 11, 2015, 01:00:49 am
Below You will find step response of my hacked Rigol DS1054Z (100MHz). This test was performed using Tektronix 284 70ps pulse generator to check if there is any ringing.
Pictures for time base settings: 5ns/div and 50ns/div.
Results: quite good.
"quite good" isn't an engineering term.

There's a button over on the left that displays a value labelled "rise time" on screen...  :popcorn:

The doktor probably realizes that... since he has a rise time measurement from the left menu displayed on the screen....    :P

And I think "quite good" is engineering shorthand for "pretty good indeed for a 400 dollar instrument".....   >:D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on December 11, 2015, 01:06:02 am
First things first - hi everyone!

I have a question to the DS1054Z users: despite all the recent problems with the scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/)), is it still worth buying it? Are there any known "big" problems that make the daily usage of the scope problematic? Is Rigol known for fixing their bugs? The Christmas is coming and I still didn't decide whether to buy the scope and hope for the fixes or wait/buy another model.
Thanks in advance for your opinions.
Despite the bugs, it's still quite usable and one heck of a bargain as well (can't be beaten on value ATM in fact). As per fixing the bugs, Rigol has been working on it (firmware release notes from 6/16/2015 are attached as an example as they're not the latest).

My recommendation is go ahead and buy one.  :)

I'd have to agree.

If you get one from current or recent production you most probably will _not_ have the Freeze Bug as described in the linked thread, since it seems to affect scopes with the earlier Boot Version 0.0.1.2 and not the current Boot Version 0.0.1.3.
 
It will still likely have the other bugs I've found but these are easy to avoid or work around if you know that they are there. Right now the major annoyance is this Measurement Fail bug that comes with the most recent Firmware Revision SP2, but yes, Rigol have said that they are working on a fix for this, and as I said it is fairly easy to work around.

If I were you I'd check with your vendor and make sure you don't get a unit with Boot Version 0.0.1.2.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on December 11, 2015, 01:20:29 am
"quite good" is an engineering term that means that is better than "good enough for government work" which is below plain old "good" and actually below "good enough".

But "quite good" is a bit below "excellent" but at a fraction of the price.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marcos on December 11, 2015, 10:20:26 am
How Rigol will manage Boot version 0.0.1.2 faulty oscilloscopes ?
AFAIK the boot version can not be updated or fixed without using an external programmer. Will they recall the scopes and replace them with newer versions?
I've bought mine from a third party re-seller and can't get any support from them.
Also asked Rigol about this but nobody bothered yet to reply to my question. So I will make my question public in here hoping that some guys from Rigol will take attitude and give us an answer.
Also, switching the timebase to anything higher than 1s keep the scope with a long delay before getting that timebase setting. Even with lower memory depth. Something is not right here.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marcos on December 11, 2015, 11:37:37 am
How Rigol will manage Boot version 0.0.1.2 faulty oscilloscopes ?
AFAIK the boot version can not be updated or fixed without using an external programmer.
Just as information, for my DS1074Z-S there was a boot firmware update.

Sparrow(ARM)update_00.04.00.00.00
Sparrow(Boot)update_00.04.00.00.00

Peter

Well, it will be nice if a similar patch will be available for 1054Z. Thanks for the tip  :-+
BTW, which number you have now for your Boot ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Maf on December 11, 2015, 12:33:42 pm
How Rigol will manage Boot version 0.0.1.2 faulty oscilloscopes ?
AFAIK the boot version can not be updated or fixed without using an external programmer.
Just as information, for my DS1074Z-S there was a boot firmware update.

Sparrow(ARM)update_00.04.00.00.00
Sparrow(Boot)update_00.04.00.00.00

Peter

So... is there a known way to update the bootloader on the DS1054Z? It's basically (AFAIK) the same hardware as DS1074Z-S.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marcos on December 11, 2015, 12:40:49 pm
Seems that 1000z series received that boot update a long time ago when the firmware was 00.04.00.00.00
It will be interesting to know which number was before and after that boot update.

I've tried today to go back from (04_03_01_05) to (04_02_04_07) :)
Guess what, still not possible. So, the problem with downgrading the firmware is not only for the latest release (04_03_02_03)  :phew:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Maf on December 16, 2015, 10:19:14 am
Seems that 1000z series received that boot update a long time ago when the firmware was 00.04.00.00.00
It will be interesting to know which number was before and after that boot update.

I've tried today to go back from (04_03_01_05) to (04_02_04_07) :)
Guess what, still not possible. So, the problem with downgrading the firmware is not only for the latest release (04_03_02_03)  :phew:

I am repeating here myself, but does this mean, that it's technically possible to update the bootloader in the 1000z series?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marcos on December 16, 2015, 07:30:17 pm
Only Rigol can answer this question so far. But they are quiet...sooo quiet... :--
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shock on December 17, 2015, 12:01:49 am
Technically possible yes, as mentioned the boot code came out in a previous update 00.04.00.00.00. I have a feeling that the issue is if you update the software before the boot code it won't allow you to apply the boot code.

Anyway I called it, but we won't be sure until Rigol gives specifics or we see a new update with a boot code file released.

If someone is in communication with them, tell Rigol to either en-corporate the boot code again with an updated version number, fix their update system or allow people to roll back properly. The firmware is all over the place and they have customers that can't even fix their bugs because of no confidence in the firmware update process.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on December 17, 2015, 05:29:49 am
Are we 100% sure the DS1074Z-S has received a boot update?

I just updated mine from version 2.x.x.x to version 04.03.01.05 and the boot version stayed at 0.0.0.11
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on December 17, 2015, 05:37:38 am
If you look at the 00.04.00.00.00 release, the firmware update and the boot update are separate gel files.  The actual gel files are both named DS1000ZUpdate.GEL.  I assume they apply to all the DS1000Z versions.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Towger on December 17, 2015, 06:14:10 am
I got a boot update for my early DS1104Z last year.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marcos on December 17, 2015, 09:05:36 am
I got a boot update for my early DS1104Z last year.

Please tell us some numbers. Before and after version was?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on December 17, 2015, 09:09:58 pm
If you look at the 00.04.00.00.00 release, the firmware update and the boot update are separate gel files.

Where you got this infos from ?
I've never seen or hear about different update and bootloader files. If you have those, please upload the firmware and the bootloader file or link it here, so we know what u konw.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on December 17, 2015, 09:56:27 pm
New boot code was distributed back in 2014 as version  00.04.01.02.00

An accompanying readme.txt file says:



Please find attached the update installation instructions and below the links to download the packed update file.
Start with the Bootloader Update, therefore please download, unpack und copy the bootloader update file on your USB Stick (root directory).
Now follow exactly the instructions.
After successful finishing the boot-update do NOT power cycle your Scope.
Even when it is written on your screen.
Just remove the USB Stick and exchange the Bootloader Update File with the Firmware update File.
Now follow again the instructions. This time you will see the prompt message "same Firmware detected. Update anyway?"
Ignor this message and go ahead with the update as described.
After successful finishing the second update procedure. Remove the stick and re-boot your Scope.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on December 17, 2015, 10:27:31 pm
If you look at this this upgrade file you will see it has the boot update and the regular update:
http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z)

Version 04.01.02 is also posted there but does not have the boot update in it.

Anyway brave enough to experiment with it???
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on December 17, 2015, 10:47:47 pm
If you look at this this upgrade file you will see it has the boot update and the regular update:
http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z)

Version 04.01.02 is also posted there but does not have the boot update in it.

Anyway brave enough to experiment with it???
Actually, it does.  :)

You get 2 folders when you expand it; Sparrow(Boot)update_00.04.00.00.00 and Sparrow(ARM)update_00.04.00.00.00.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on December 17, 2015, 10:49:53 pm
If you look at this this upgrade file you will see it has the boot update and the regular update:
http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z)

Version 04.01.02 is also posted there but does not have the boot update in it.

Anyway brave enough to experiment with it???
Actually, it does.  :)

You get 2 folders when you expand it; Sparrow(Boot)update_00.04.00.00.00 and Sparrow(ARM)update_00.04.00.00.00.

That is exactly what I said...

The 4.0.0.0 I linked to has the boot update in it. The 4.01.02 does not have it - I mentioned the 4.01.02 because in a previous post it was mentioned that version had the boot update.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on December 17, 2015, 11:00:05 pm
If you look at this this upgrade file you will see it has the boot update and the regular update:
http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z)

Version 04.01.02 is also posted there but does not have the boot update in it.

Anyway brave enough to experiment with it???
Actually, it does.  :)

You get 2 folders when you expand it; Sparrow(Boot)update_00.04.00.00.00 and Sparrow(ARM)update_00.04.00.00.00.

That is exactly what I said...

The 4.0.0.0 I linked to has the boot update in it. The 4.01.02 does not have it - I mentioned the 4.01.02 because in a previous post it was mentioned that version had the boot update.
Oops. The second file you mentioned is what stuck in my head.  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on December 17, 2015, 11:07:21 pm
I believe Rigol no longer allows downgrades to firmware, but has anyone tried the bootloader update from version 4.0.0.0 after installing newer firmware?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marcos on December 17, 2015, 11:30:23 pm
No way to downgrade. Just tried that.
I tried also to "trick" the older firmware making the scope believe that it will install an updated version.
It worked up to a point. Scope is seeing a newer version, unpack and analyze the file, but soon after that an error message comes up and that's it. Update aborted.
Probably because there are some checksums in place or another place inside the code which tells the scope that the version is not "quite" a newer one :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on December 17, 2015, 11:57:30 pm
Shame, I was hoping maybe it would allow the bootloader "upgrade" even if it didn't allow the main firmware update.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on December 18, 2015, 02:34:51 am
has anyone tried the bootloader update from version 4.0.0.0 after installing newer firmware?
I gave it a try as well to no avail. Hopefully Rigol will fix this.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on December 18, 2015, 03:00:53 am
I asked Rigol for the latest bootloader version a few months ago.  The response I got back was that a bootloader update was not needed.

Model:DS1104Z
SN:DS1Z----------
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.0.11
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP1
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on December 18, 2015, 03:03:58 am
Anyone aware of a recovery button combo to restore firmware from the usb drive should you have a failure during flashing?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Orange on December 18, 2015, 05:22:19 am
If you look at this this upgrade file you will see it has the boot update and the regular update:
http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z)

Version 04.01.02 is also posted there but does not have the boot update in it.

Anyway brave enough to experiment with it???
Actually, it does.  :)

You get 2 folders when you expand it; Sparrow(Boot)update_00.04.00.00.00 and Sparrow(ARM)update_00.04.00.00.00.

That is exactly what I said...

The 4.0.0.0 I linked to has the boot update in it. The 4.01.02 does not have it - I mentioned the 4.01.02 because in a previous post it was mentioned that version had the boot update.
And it has in it, but your download source is incomplete. That site is not very well maintained, but merely lists what people upload, bad or good.
Well never mind, it does not matter. Rigol is preventing us to downgrade the FW on the DS1000Z series. it probably has something to do with incompatible hardware.
I still think that the bootloader plays an important role to set the hardware in a certain state so that memory configuration is correct for the rest of the boot process.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on December 18, 2015, 05:52:08 am
Maybe some day they will release another build with the bootloader, seems unlikely though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shock on December 18, 2015, 07:18:20 am
I was talking about this crap months ago see this thread.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/msg736098/#msg736098 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/msg736098/#msg736098)

Jason from Rigol wants everyone to repost their versions. He doesn't seem to believe 30-40 or so of the 90 people who did the poll were having a 100% reproducible freeze bug and were posting they had BOOT Ver:0.0.1.2.

Again nothing will happen until Rigol take this seriously. People can't mess around and risk the chance to brick their oscilloscopes, Rigol needs to reach out to customers experiencing the problem and attempt to fix it.

Anyway I mentioned in the thread about opening the 00.04.00.00.00 boot code .GEL file in CCS Code Composer Studio or whatever they wrote it in and we might be able to see if that version is BOOT Ver:0.0.1.3.

In the headers of each .GEL file you normally see something like this:
Code: [Select]
DS1000Z
00.04.03.02.03
/sys/SparrowAPP.out
/sys/SparrowFPGA.hex
/sys/SparrowDGFPGA.hex
/sys/logo.hex
/sys/guiResData.hex
/sys/guiPicData.hex
/sys/SparrowConfig.hex
/sys/SparrowWaveTable.hex
/sys/SparrowCalFile.hex

While in the 00.04.00.00.00 boot code .GEL file you will find this inclusion.
Code: [Select]
/sys/SparrowBootloader.sb
Title: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: akkarin on December 18, 2015, 07:44:38 am
I suggest we do this in a separate Thread?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nrxnrx on December 20, 2015, 12:45:36 pm
I'm certain I've seen this here and have been trying to find it with no success.

What was the combination to activate the "extended" info menu, which shows the full version number and startup times?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dcac on December 20, 2015, 01:24:41 pm
I'm certain I've seen this here and have been trying to find it with no success.

What was the combination to activate the "extended" info menu, which shows the full version number and startup times?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/msg790130/#msg790130 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/msg790130/#msg790130)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nrxnrx on December 20, 2015, 02:29:54 pm
I'm certain I've seen this here and have been trying to find it with no success.

What was the combination to activate the "extended" info menu, which shows the full version number and startup times?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/msg790130/#msg790130 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/msg790130/#msg790130)

Thank you!

And (for the re-re-record) the message from Orange:
Quote
To display the full version information:
- In the trigger area on the front panel, press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU         <<< press this sequence very quickly
- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Chai on December 25, 2015, 12:07:34 am
Anyone have a tip on how to keep the decoder values on screen when I scale in and position? The software seems to only want to keep the decoded i2c values on screen when the address r/w is visible. Here is zoomed out then zoomed in on decoded value 15 (https://imgur.com/a/hLCOG).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on December 25, 2015, 07:32:52 pm
Anyone have a tip on how to keep the decoder values on screen when I scale in and position? The software seems to only want to keep the decoded i2c values on screen when the address r/w is visible. Here is zoomed out then zoomed in on decoded value 15 (https://imgur.com/a/hLCOG).

That's the way the decoder works, it will only decode what's on the screen, and even then it will sub sample the underlying data, so you'll never get more than a handful of bytes of decode available.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Maf on December 27, 2015, 09:57:53 pm
According to https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-tables/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-tables/) (and my own observations), with single channel enabled, 1ms/div and 12M memory depth, the scope samples with rate of 500MS/s. Shouldn't it actually be 1GS/s?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on December 27, 2015, 10:08:10 pm
According to https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-tables/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-tables/) (and my own observations), with 1ms/div and 12M memory depth, the scope samples with rate of 500MS/s. Shouldn't it actually be 1GS/s?

Depends on how many channels you have active.

1GSa/s is _only_ available with a single channel active.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Maf on December 27, 2015, 10:10:12 pm
According to https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-tables/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-tables/) (and my own observations), with 1ms/div and 12M memory depth, the scope samples with rate of 500MS/s. Shouldn't it actually be 1GS/s?

Depends on how many channels you have active.

1GSa/s is _only_ available with a single channel active.

I meant of course sampling with single channel enabled.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on December 27, 2015, 10:37:07 pm
You have to go to 500 us/div or faster to get the 1GSa/s sample rate with 12M (or Auto) memory depth.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Maf on December 27, 2015, 10:39:21 pm
You have to go to 500 us/div or faster to get the 1GSa/s sample rate with 12M (or Auto) memory depth.
Yes, I know. The question is: why? 12ms * 1GS/s is 12M samples, so this should fit into 12M memory.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: royshen9154 on January 22, 2016, 01:53:29 am
So I need to use the code DSER ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on January 22, 2016, 09:00:01 am
So I need to use the code DSER ?
Yes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mechatrommer on January 22, 2016, 01:24:49 pm
Yes, I know. The question is: why? 12ms * 1GS/s is 12M samples, so this should fit into 12M memory.
point #1: at 1ms/div, let say we can fit 10 period sine in 1 div, thats 10KHz signal, whats the point of higher sampling rate when you can just barely see the 10KHz signal packed together? 100KSample/s is adequate at that time range. you got 500MS/s 5000X more than it should be, what are you complaining?...

point #2: sampling at full memory capability means, you handicapped the color graded superimposed multi waveforms capability, you'll miss much much signal esp rare/intemittent signals. 99.99% of sampled data will become useless due to unable to appear (or reside in one single pixel) on the screen.

you can sample at full memory @ 1GS/s, there's menu for that... just set the time/div to the necesary value.. capture/stop and process zoom in/out the 24M sample data to your heart content desire.. ymmv..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: robert_ on January 22, 2016, 05:27:06 pm
point #1: at 1ms/div, let say we can fit 10 period sine in 1 div, thats 10KHz signal, whats the point of higher sampling rate when you can just barely see the 10KHz signal packed together? 100KSample/s is adequate at that time range. you got 500MS/s 5000X more than it should be, what are you complaining?...
No. Unless you just look at sine waves, which is sort of boring.
At 100Ks/s any signal content above 50Khz will get aliased down, which will result in various degrees of garbage on the screen, even if you dont ever want to zoom into your signal (in case of some burst data you will want to) you need long enough memory to keep the sample rate high enough to fulfill nyquist.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mechatrommer on January 22, 2016, 06:05:18 pm
which will result in various degrees of garbage on the screen
exactly like what you get on rigol screen with large enough time/div and large enough frequency content exist in the signal in peak acquisition mode... a fat thick yellow (CH1) trace..

you need long enough memory to keep the sample rate high enough to fulfill nyquist.
no need long enough memory, just how much screen horizontal pixels count is all it needs, excess memory maybe used for color graded super impose, or zoom or time shift or what not. you may calculate time span on the screen divided by pixel count, thats your nyquist requirement, times 2 if you want more peace of mind. the simplest... with 800 pixels @ 12ms span, you only need 66.66666666666666666667 KSamples/s to fill the whole screen of 800 memory, lets make it 133KS/s for peace of mind. do not interpolate like china rigol's sinx did, just vector point to point straight line connect, to avoid false data, of course higher content will looks like garbage or lost in the scene due to aliasing, not much different if you sample at higher (even the famous 1GS/s) rate (peak acquisition)...

last edit: as i said earlier, if you want full 1GS/s @ 24MSamples, you can, rigol doesnt prohibit you this, just set it in acquire menu and 500uV/div, then you have a good sample for 24ms... the exact answer to the why not 1GS/s @ 1mV/div lies in the rigol designer's lap.. fwiw..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: v81 on January 29, 2016, 04:18:53 am
Have been out of the loop for a while, i wonder if anyone con confirm weather or not a firmware update will cause any issues with the scope features being unlocked.
Also are there any known issues with the current stable firmware?

I have tested and can confirm i get the lockup bug described in this (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/) post.

Other question i have is per the attached pic, how do i properly remove the stats?
If i use the delete option in the menu, and then add a stat again the deleted ones re-appear in a greyed state taking up screen space.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: cs.dk on January 29, 2016, 04:30:47 am
The firmware does not edit/remove your unlocked options.

For the stats, thats a bug. You need to delete the items, and reboot to make them dissepear |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on January 29, 2016, 06:22:43 am
Have been out of the loop for a while, i wonder if anyone con confirm weather or not a firmware update will cause any issues with the scope features being unlocked.
Also are there any known issues with the current stable firmware?

I have tested and can confirm i get the lockup bug described in this (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/) post.

Other question i have is per the attached pic, how do i properly remove the stats?
If i use the delete option in the menu, and then add a stat again the deleted ones re-appear in a greyed state taking up screen space.

Note that you have Boot Version 0.0.1.2. This is why you have the "Freeze" lockup bug. The later scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 do not seem to have this particular bug. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any way to update the Boot Version. Updating the "firmware" only changes what the scope calls "software" version, but does not change the Boot Version.

Updating the firmware does not affect the Options or the ability to unlock them. But what happens if you accidentally brick the scope during an update?  I recommend uninstalling the Options before updating firmware, then re-installing them once you know the scope is working after the update. Just in case something happens, like a power fault or the cat knocks over the scope or something during the update process and the scope bricks.

Yes, the latest firmware GEL version 00.04.03.02.03, identified by the scope as 00.04.03.SP2,  does fix some things that annoyed me, but will not fix your lockup bug (since you have Boot Version 0.0.1.2 and this will not change.) But it also introduces a couple of other things that are annoying. For example, the new firmware installs Pulse and Edge counters in the Horizontal measurements menus... but when the measurements are displayed, it says "Pluses" rather than "Pulses". A silly but very annoying typo. Also, most users have noticed that the new firmware makes the scope respond more slowly to some controls, like the vertical positioning controls etc.
 
Perhaps the most annoying thing that the new firmware does is the "Measurements Fail" bug when a Math trace is in use. After a random time, the measurements simply stop working! All of them, not just the ones you may have selected on screen. And the only way to get them working again is to restart the scope by power-cycling it. I've made a few videos showing this behaviour:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6kFfy8sW68 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6kFfy8sW68)

I reported this bug to Rigol USA and the technicians there were immediately able to reproduce it on their test scopes... and I think it got their attention.

Since it is impossible (as far as I know) to roll back to earlier firmware once a later one is installed, you may want to think carefully about installing the current firmware if these things would be a problem for you.

The math trace horizontal error at 500 ns/div is not fixed by the latest firmware either.


If you go to the Measure menu, second page, and select "Font Size" and select Large or Extra Large, you can then Select Item, which will then let you choose which of the 5 current measurements to display. (Large font allows 3, Extra Large allows 2, of the 5 possible ones.) This is only a partial solution for the "greyed out inactive measurements taking up space" feature (not a bug) but it's better than nothing.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: v81 on January 30, 2016, 04:30:30 am
If you go to the Measure menu, second page, and select "Font Size" and select Large or Extra Large, you can then Select Item, which will then let you choose which of the 5 current measurements to display. (Large font allows 3, Extra Large allows 2, of the 5 possible ones.) This is only a partial solution for the "greyed out inactive measurements taking up space" feature (not a bug) but it's better than nothing.

Appreciate your great reply.
Regarding the inactive measurements, surely this is has to be a bug or an oversight of some type?
If not, and it is intended, what happens when i have some measurements (say 5 of them) and then want to remove some and replace them with different measurements?
Only answer I've seen is to re-boot?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on January 30, 2016, 07:12:42 am
Well, if you have "normal" font size displayed, the scope displays the last 5 measurements you selected. So you can "push out" unwanted measurements by selecting more measurements.

Say you have

Rise time   Fall time   Vp-p   +Duty    Vrms   

displayed and you want to replace Vp-p with some other measurement, like Vavg.

So you press  Vavg and this pushes rise time off the screen to the left. Then you press Rise time and this pushes Fall time off the screen to the left.
Then you press Fall time and this pushes Vp-p off the screen to the left.

So now you have

+Duty   Vrms   Vavg   Rise time   Fall time

displayed.


I agree, this "greyed out" but still present measurements thing is a "feature" that nobody wants and seems pretty silly. It's not a "bug" though because it is doing what it is designed to do. 
When you use the "Delete" Item button the item should disappear completely and leave that slot open for another measurement if the user desires. So you should be able simply to press "Item 3 - Delete" and it should disappear from the screen leaving that slot open, and then when you select another item it should appear in the third slot. Why the designers didn't choose to do it this way is a real mystery.
 
But then.... "Pluses".   :-DD


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on January 30, 2016, 08:33:20 am
Hello,
! It's a Feature, not a Bug !
You can use in the 3rd Level of the Measure Menue: "Sel.Item"
You will see there 5 Items and you can check or not. So they will appear.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on January 30, 2016, 09:01:10 am
Sure! Now try to add another new measurement and watch what happens !

 |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tsaG on February 11, 2016, 08:21:47 am
Hi, quick question. Is it possible to decode CAN with the ds1054z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on February 11, 2016, 08:25:06 am
Hi, quick question. Is it possible to decode CAN with the ds1054z?

You can (no pun intended) but only if you have the option (or you "unlocked" your scope) and for what I hear you can only decode what is on the scope screen, you can't decode from memory even if the scope can capture quite a bit of data. But I have not done it myself, so this is hear say.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 11, 2016, 08:41:38 am
Hi, quick question. Is it possible to decode CAN with the ds1054z?

You can (no pun intended) but only if you have the option (or you "unlocked" your scope) and for what I hear you can only decode what is on the scope screen, you can't decode from memory even if the scope can capture quite a bit of data. But I have not done it myself, so this is hear say.

It only decodes what's visible on screen.

(At least I think that's what it does... how would I know? If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound?  :popcorn:)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on February 11, 2016, 08:43:10 am
Hi, quick question. Is it possible to decode CAN with the ds1054z?

No, it's not possible.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on February 11, 2016, 08:50:47 am
Hi, quick question. Is it possible to decode CAN with the ds1054z?

No, it's not possible.

Ooops, you are right, I keep on thinking that the DS1000z has about the same capabilities as the DS2000 that I have, but looking at the programming manual it doesn't include CAN decoding

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0386/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z_Programming%20Guide_EN.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0386/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z_Programming%20Guide_EN.pdf)

Sorry, my bad for assuming.

Edit: apparently it can only decode the following (if you have the options installed):
Parallel (standard for MSO1000z)
RS232 (optional)
I2C (optional)
SPI (optional)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on February 13, 2016, 06:25:42 pm
Total long shot here. I think it is safe to assume the DS1054Z has some sort of recovery mode in the bootloader to recover from a failed flash. While the regular firmware update process does not allow version downgrades a bootloader recovery flash might allow it.
Has anyone tried to copy the firmware update process used by the DG1022 as discussed here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dg1022-how-to-update-the-firmware/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dg1022-how-to-update-the-firmware/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 14, 2016, 01:53:02 am
I don't think it's safe to assume anything about software from a company that lets stuff like this get through:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on February 14, 2016, 02:45:45 am
I don't think it's safe to assume anything about software from a company that lets stuff like this get through:

Yea - that's pretty bad.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mechatrommer on February 14, 2016, 06:47:09 am
I don't think it's safe to assume anything about software from a company that lets stuff like this get through:
i can understand your nitpicking comment if you are not the one who develop softwares.... do you believe its intentional?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 14, 2016, 11:38:32 am
I don't think it's safe to assume anything about software from a company that lets stuff like this get through:
i can understand your nitpicking comment if you are not the one who develop softwares.... do you believe its intentional?

Nitpicking? People are complaining about not being able to press their own buttons properly, and about "fan noise"..... and you think I'M "nitpicking" when I point out a bug that tells you you have 8 "PLUSES" when you actually have 10 PULSES, or that can't even synchronize the Math result with the two traces going into the Math? Or when I complain about _all_ the Measurements simply stopping and refusing to start up again when Math is in use? Nitpicking? Ok, whatever dude.   :-DD

And no, I don't think they are doing it intentionally. They are doing it out of carelessness and incompetence. Which do you think is worse?    :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mechatrommer on February 14, 2016, 12:04:41 pm
Nitpicking?
i saw your pluses report scattered everywhere. post it in bug/wishlist thread, report to rigol and hope for the best. in the mean time dont use it or if its really important how many pluses on the screen, then you need to eyeball it. imho the bug has not enough merit to decide to buy or not i my self havent a need for it yet. the OP may search the forum for complete bug list, then he can make the decision whether is that important or not. the pluses bug is hillarious though..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 14, 2016, 12:25:33 pm
Nitpicking?
i saw your pluses report scattered everywhere. post it in bug/wishlist thread, report to rigol and hope for the best. in the mean time dont use it or if its really important how many pluses on the screen, then you need to eyeball it. imho the bug has not enough merit to decide to buy or not i my self havent a need for it yet. the OP may search the forum for complete bug list, then he can make the decision whether is that important or not. the pluses bug is hillarious though..

I reported it to Rigol, along with the measurements fail bug, as soon as I encountered it, which was the same day I received the replacement scope from them (with the Boot Version 0.0.1.3)  to replace the one I had with the Freeze Bug (Boot Version 0.0.1.2). And they reproduced the bug immediately in their own test scopes. This was several months ago, and I haven't heard anything from them since. This, by the way, is the _third_ DS1054z unit I've had. The first one I had to return to TEquipment in the first week because it had a bad glitch, hardware related, in the CH4. The second one Rigol asked me to return, because it had the Freeze Bug and they couldn't find one of their own to reproduce it. I did not ask them, they asked ME, and I insisted that they send me a replacement _before_ I would send them that one back, which they did. SO I had both scopes for about three days in order to compare them side-by-side.  This one is the one they sent me to replace that one. They sent it with SP2 firmware, but Boot Version 0.0.1.3. I decided to "update" by installing the SP3 firmware and immediately discovered the Pluses error, the miscounting error and the Measurements Fail bug. The Math error at 500 ns has been there through several firmware versions.  And just so you know... I do not deliberately look for these bugs, they have all happened during my normal use of the scope in my daily benchwork.  Sure... I actually use the scope, or try to, to do more than just make pretty colored squiggly lines while connected to a FG. My mistake? It does that much quite well after all.

If your car could only make left turns... would you consider that important or not? It might not be to some people, but if you sold it to someone without telling them... they might not be too happy. Meanwhile... people complain about the _fan noise_ in the Rigol, or the fact that they need to be careful pushing the knob-buttons,  but don't seem to care about things like the pulse miscount or the measurements stopping completely !!!    :-DD

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on February 14, 2016, 01:30:05 pm
If your car could only make left turns... would you consider that important or not? It might not be to some people, but if you sold it to someone without telling them... they might not be too happy. Meanwhile... people complain about the _fan noise_ in the Rigol, or the fact that they need to be careful pushing the knob-buttons,  but don't seem to care about things like the pulse miscount or the measurements stopping completely !!!    :-DD

It makes perfect sense to me that some users find ergonomic shortcomings, which you are confronted with throughout every hour of using the scope, more annoying than a bug in some very specific function. To stay in your car analogy, e.g. a constant rattling noise or a rickety gear stick can be quite annoying indeed, although they do not limit the functionality of the car in any way. On the other hand, a functional problem in the AM radio may be quite acceptable to many users.

Anyway, if it makes you feel better or superior to laugh about those users, please yourself...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mechatrommer on February 14, 2016, 01:51:04 pm
If your car could only make left turns... would you consider that important or not?
when you buy an DSO, do you expect it to have pulses mesurement? go buy gwInstek and hope you have those statistics, pulses etc.. 17 math functions... 20 digital and 17 analog mesurements like rigol has... i dont give a damn, but its nice to have. you car analogy is not good enough as you are talking about the core functionality (the purpose of a car is to move around right and left that its core functionality), if you want to make car analogy, it'll be suitable if its like the stickers on the car, full face vs not full face, accesories etc and whatever "bell and whistle" they have put in, a car is still a car without them, but a car that cannot turn left is not a car. so what is a DSO core functionality? its laughable when people expect a DSO to be a spectrum analyzer, remember those gwInstek fanboys? :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hans on February 14, 2016, 02:03:28 pm
I don't know if this has been posted before - sorry this thread is just too big to look for it, but:
Has anyone noticed any negative voltage clamping recovery issues?

I have just. See my attachments for my findings. I reproduced this on all 4 channels on 1:10 and 1:1 probe,

Screen 1: Simple 3.3V test signal. Looks OK.
Screen 2: Same test signal, zoomed in. Looks OK. There is some slight ringing after recovery though.
Screen 3: Bandwidth limit off, just in case it matters.

So clamping for positive signals looks OK.

Now I measure a signal from an instrumentation amplifier for a power measurements. I digitize this signal with a 16-bit 500ksps ADC and it looks exactly the same as in issue 1 shot (although with less noise of course!).

Issue 1: Correct signal. All the small bumps are correct. There is no overshoot or undershoot visible on my sampled signal.
Issue 2: This is what happens when I put it on 2V/Div and the relay clicks. There is some slight overshoot again, about as worse at th 3.3V test signal one, except this at a much larger scale.
Issue 3: Some bit more at 1V/div.
Issue 4: Wow! Big overshoot at 500mV/div It even shoots through 0V.
Issue 5: 1V/div again, moved up. The overshoot seems less.
Issue 6: Looking at the pulse itself. It seems a bit bent.
Issue 7: At 2V/div and clipping it seems OK.
Issue 8: Wait.. until I move it further down.
Issue 9: and down some more, till it makes no sense again.
Issue 10: Back at 500mV - nope, overshoot is too severe to recover.

Can anyone reproduce this?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on February 14, 2016, 03:17:28 pm
when you buy an DSO, do you expect it to have pulses mesurement? go buy gwInstek and hope you have those statistics, pulses etc.. 17 math functions...

It doesn't make a damn bit of difference what GW Instek or Tektronix any other manufacturer has on their scopes ... Rigol has the measurement on their scope - they decided to offer it for whatever reason -  and so they need to make sure it works right. If they couldn't or can't make it work right then they shouldn't have it as an available selection.

 :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: c4757p on February 14, 2016, 03:46:25 pm
I'm not sure you understand what the argument is, mecha. It's true that a measurement you don't need being poorly implemented doesn't directly affect you - as ebastler said, if the AM radio in your car doesn't work, it doesn't impact your ability to drive the car, and chances are you didn't need it anyway.

Thing is... there are actually known problems with this scope - ones that affect real people, though maybe they don't affect you - and they're spending valuable developer time implementing broken Pluses counters instead of fixing the damn thing. That really doesn't look good. Nobody's saying it makes them worthless - they're still my favorite lower-end test equipment manufacturer by a long shot, and I'm sure many people here would agree. But it's a poor use of resources, and they really should be doing better to improve what they already have.

There seems to be a general obsession among the low-end equipment manufacturers with adding stupid bells and whistles that nobody needs rather than making the central bits work well. Take for example all the $10 multimeters that have transistor testers - who the hell needs that? They compromise safety and don't even work properly, as an approximated measurement of \$\beta\$ at an arbitrary test current tells you barely more than nothing. And yet the meters are drifty and sometimes quite unsafe. On the other hand, my Fluke 87V has very few bells and whistles, it's a pretty basic meter - but what it does, it does really well.

Rigol, I love you, but come on, guys... stop sitting on your thumbs miscounting pluses and start taking care of your stuff. I love my 1054Z, but I could love it more, y'know... ^-^

Also, Rigol, it'd be great if you could respond again! Any idea what's going on with this bloody thing? Any ETA on a fix?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 14, 2016, 04:44:06 pm
If your car could only make left turns... would you consider that important or not?

Yes, but it's not that at all. It's not "turning left", at best it's something like "the rear ashtray doesn't close properly".

These are functions that I've never used after over a year of ownership. I will probably never use them so I simply don't care.

If I wanted to improve things, that's not what I'd be looking at.

Your constant repeating of these minor details in every thread as "major bugs" is boring.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pickle9000 on February 14, 2016, 06:41:48 pm
A manufacturers bug list is a product feature, not a failure. No bit of gear is fault free in design hardware or software. A documented list is necessary.

Chinese manufacturers can do a decent job if they try. Hantek is not bad http://www.hantek.org/asken/ (http://www.hantek.org/asken/). Rigol could be more open with this stuff. I'm not endorsing Hantek but I like this open approach.

This would make a good subject for a future blog. Both in terms of selecting a bit of gear (for a particular application) and making correct measurements with what you have. Are you watching Dave?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 15, 2016, 07:32:10 am
Total long shot here. I think it is safe to assume the DS1054Z has some sort of recovery mode in the bootloader to recover from a failed flash.
I don't think it's safe to assume anything about software from a company that lets stuff like this get through:

Apparently you can load firmware during boot by pressing the 'help' key:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade- (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade-)*is*-possible-and-here-is-how/

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 15, 2016, 10:55:04 am
Total long shot here. I think it is safe to assume the DS1054Z has some sort of recovery mode in the bootloader to recover from a failed flash.
I don't think it's safe to assume anything about software from a company that lets stuff like this get through:

Apparently you can load firmware during boot by pressing the 'help' key:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade- (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade-)*is*-possible-and-here-is-how/

Look again. It's only  possible if you have some really really early version of the Boot Version.

Quote
These are functions that I've never used after over a year of ownership. I will probably never use them so I simply don't care.
:-DD
Your failure to use, or care about,  features of your equipment that are supposed to work _as advertised_ isn't boring... it's hilarious.

Hey... I don't care if there are typos in the Chinese menus... because I don't speak read or write Chinese. How boring is that?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on February 15, 2016, 01:26:24 pm
Hey... I don't care if there are typos in the Chinese menus... because I don't speak read or write Chinese. How boring is that?

I'll give you a Pulse 1 for that statement!  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jtbili on February 22, 2016, 12:11:11 pm
This new 50MHz version of the 4-channel DS1000Z series scopes is being discussed in several threads, particularly this one (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-oscillosope/). However, the price/performance is so outstanding that it surely deserves its own.

A 4 channel, 12 Mpts memory, 30 000 waveforms/second, intensity graded scope of this quality for around 399 USD/299 EUR/235 GBP (plus tax) is nothing short of astounding, even before the hacking possibilities are considered.

Dave has announced that he is getting one, so hopefully we can look forward to a review in the not too distant future, and - unless he finds any unexpected gotchas - a new default recommendation for entry level scopes.

Due to the ever-growing length of this thread, I have added an FAQ section about the scope:
(Additions/corrections welcome - send me a PM)

The scope (and some other Rigol models) originally had some issues relating to excessive jitter which were corrected by a firmware update to SW version 00.04.02.SP4 in December 2014. Subsequently shipped scopes are likely to have been fixed already.  A link to the update was posted on the forum by Rigol and can be found here (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0). This currently links to a newer SW version (04.03) which also fixes some other minor bugs.

The oscilloscope does not have a real time clock, and therefore cannot add the current time and date to saved screenshots and other data. A number of trial options are initially enabled which will expire after 35 hours runtime (not 35 hours since first use).

A 'hack' is available to enable 100MHz bandwidth and all of the trial features which after expiring are normally only available at additional cost. Users considering this should be aware that it is not approved by Rigol and may void the warranty. A website featuring the code generator to enable the features can be found at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/. (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/.) Do not use the DSFR code suggested on the website. Codes for 500uV vertical resolution are intended for oscilloscopes such as the DS2000A series which have the necessary hardware for this feature. The code DSER enables all features except 500uV, which is not supported on the DS1000Z series and will cause erroneous results at this setting.

The US vendor TEquipment offers a discount on this oscilloscope and other products to EEVBlog members. This is available if you mention the offer when ordering. You can also use a discount code, but TEquipment have requested that it not be reproduced on the forum. There is a forum topic where the code can be requested from other members here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/).

Some of the RP2200 probes supplied with the scope have been found to have intermittent contacts when switched to the 1X setting. A fix for this issue is described here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg669159/#msg669159).

Dave has a number of blogs featuring this scope and its siblings:

A first look: EEVBlog 522 (http://www.eevblog.com/2013/09/20/eevblog-522-rigol-ds1000z-oscilloscope-quick-look/)
Teardown: EEVBlog 674 (http://www.eevblog.com/2014/10/15/eevblog-674-rigol-ds1054z-teardown/)
Reverse engineering: EEVBlog 675 (http://www.eevblog.com/2014/10/22/eevblog-675-how-to-reverse-engineer-a-rigol-ds1054z/)
Jitter problems: EEVBlog 683 (http://www.eevblog.com/2014/11/14/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/)
Jitter fix:  EEVBlog 699 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/05/eevblog-699-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-jitter-fix-testing/)
Summary review:  EEVBlog 703 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/15/eevblog-703-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-review-summary/)
Features review:  EEVBlog 704 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/15/eevblog-704-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-features-review/)
Probe performance:  EEVBlog 707 (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/22/eevblog-707-rigol-oscilloscope-probe-performance/)
(There is apparently also a performance testing review which has not yet been released.)

Hi all,

I am trying to find the link to FAQ for DS1054Z. Any plans for it?


jtbili
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on February 22, 2016, 12:43:08 pm
Hi all,

I am trying to find the link to FAQ for DS1054Z. Any plans for it?

jtbili

You have already seen the FAQ section for this thread - it is the information following the red text in the message you quoted.

It was not present in the original post and is updated from time to time.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jtbili on February 24, 2016, 08:48:11 am
I have checked the simplified way to reverse options changes. Actions are as follows:

Connect scope to laptop using ethernet cable, configure it automatically and check the IP of the scope from LXI LAN setting window.

Run PuTTytel.exe freeware with scope IP and 5555 port.

In the telnet window execute *IDN? command for verification and run reversing command.

PuTTYtel is a Telnet-only client and does not require installation. Checked with Win7 and Win8.

jtbili
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on February 24, 2016, 10:23:16 am
No need to use putty. Just enter the following command in the console:

telnet <ip-address> 5555

Checked on Linux.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jtbili on February 24, 2016, 11:50:49 am
No need to use putty. Just enter the following command in the console:

telnet <ip-address> 5555

Checked on Linux.

Right, it works perfect in Linux. But in my company laptop I have win only, no chance for changing or adding new system.
I had to find quick, easy and simple solution. Telnet in Win7, 8 had problems with connection, puTTYtel - never.

jtbili
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 24, 2016, 01:40:22 pm
The DS1054Z supports telnet?

That's pretty cool...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on February 24, 2016, 09:37:02 pm
Right, it works perfect in Linux. But in my company laptop I have win only, no chance for changing or adding new system.
I had to find quick, easy and simple solution. Telnet in Win7, 8 had problems with connection, puTTYtel - never.

Windows sucks, sry.  But Putty is a very useful program on all platforms like Win, Linux n mac, I like that.
If u need a Linux system, I work on Linux n MAC OSX only, make an USB live stick.  The call sign on Linux is  "Pinguy Builder". So you can easy make your own LIVE Drive. Google it.
Same as 'remaster' on Windows, but on Windows it has removed years ago.
Or download an Ubuntu (Kiddie Linux) live version on an USB drive. So u have always your 'Backup drive' in your pocket.

btw, anybody knows whats up with RIGOL ? Did they work on an update /for the bootloader / firmware, or should I send back my scope ? My warranty expires in 4 months.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on February 24, 2016, 10:35:31 pm
Hi All,
Is it possible do external trigger with this 4 ch rigol?
I read some posts, and one said that is possible use the trigger out  with a BNC and pump to channel 1...
As i´m new to oscilloscopes, and planning to buy one of these RIGOL DS1054Z.
Is it really important have a external trigger to a hobby use?

Tks

Flávio.

Brazil.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on February 25, 2016, 07:29:34 am
Is it possible do external trigger with this 4 ch rigol?

It does not have a dedicated external trigger input.
You can ofcourse use one of the four inputchannels as a trigger input.
In that case you have three channels left.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on February 25, 2016, 08:57:07 am
A trigger input can be useful sometime, but you can use any of the 4 inputs as a trigger and very rarely (never?) you will need displaying 4 signals triggering by another signal: no one of the 4 signals can be used as a trigger?...
A trigger input is useful if the scope has only 1 or 2 inputs: the trigger input is a cheap, "light" channel, with only a few settings, only for triggering. A 2-channel scope with external trigger input is like a "2 1/2-channel" scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 25, 2016, 09:55:12 am
Is it possible do external trigger with this 4 ch rigol?

Yes. Any of the 4 connectors on the front can be used for triggering.

(and they often are...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on February 25, 2016, 12:09:46 pm
Doh!!!  :palm:   I can´t beleive i made this question without read the manual of my DSO oscilloscope (TEK TBS 1072B-EDU) that shows the trigger can be sourced by CH1,CH2, EXT, EXT/5 AC LINE.
Now i remebering about this from oscilloscopes classes at engeneering school. (19yr´sa ago).

Same thing with the RiGOL DS1054Z manual on section 5-2:pag 76

Trigger Source
Press MENU  Source in the trigger control area (TRIGGER) at the front panel to
select the desired trigger source. Analog channels CH1-CH4, digital channels D0-D15
or the AC Line can all be used as trigger source.
Analog channel input:
Signals input from analog channels CH1-CH4 can all be used as trigger source. No
matter whether the channel selected is enabled, the channel can work normally.
Note: When any channel among D7-D0 is enabled, CH4 cannot be used as trigger
source; when any channel among D15-D8 is enabled, CH3 cannot be used as trigger
source.
Digital channel input:
Only the digital channels turned on can be used as trigger source. Please refer to the
introduction of "To Turn on/off the Digital Channel" to turn on the desired
digital channel.
AC line:
The trigger signal is obtained from the AC power input of the oscilloscope. AC trigger
is usually used to measure signals relevant to the AC power frequency. For example,
stably trigger the waveform output from the transformer of a transformer substation;
it is mainly used in related measurements of the power industry

Just to make shure if i understood this..., if i just need from channel 1-3 to show signal, i still have the channel 4 as a tigger source (in this case, turned into a external trigger)?

As i´m returning to electronics world, planning to buy a RIGOL, need study more, instead of make silly questions again.

Anyway, Thanks for the answers and for your time...


Att
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 25, 2016, 12:53:34 pm
Just to make shure if i understood this..., if i just need from channel 1-3 to show signal, i still have the channel 4 as a tigger source (in this case, turned into a external trigger)?

Yes. Any channel can be used as trigger.

As i´m returning to electronics world, planning to buy a RIGOL, need study more, instead of make silly questions again.

The only "silly" question is the one that isn't asked.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on February 25, 2016, 01:48:39 pm
 :-+  nice fungus....thanks again..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Quiggers on February 26, 2016, 01:18:13 pm
Just ordered one, I've been sitting on the fence for months.
Should be here by Wednesday the 2nd. All the way from Germany.
Shipping was free. Hurrah!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jano on March 01, 2016, 09:37:44 pm
What's the latest firmware revision?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Marcos on March 01, 2016, 10:04:19 pm
00.04.03.02.03

Better stay away from this update based on others reports about it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on March 03, 2016, 07:50:42 am
A terrific feature, now that these oscilloscopes include an Ethernet interface, would be NTP synchronization, so that captures would be accurately timestamped.

That's so much better than a RTC, having the correct time within several milliseconds.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on March 03, 2016, 08:20:07 am
A terrific feature, now that these oscilloscopes include an Ethernet interface, would be NTP synchronization, so that captures would be accurately timestamped.

That's so much better than a RTC, having the correct time within several milliseconds.

I would never connect a commercial test/measuring instrument to the internet, not even via a firewall.
Test/measuring instruments are not designed with security in mind.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on March 03, 2016, 09:05:50 am
A terrific feature, now that these oscilloscopes include an Ethernet interface, would be NTP synchronization, so that captures would be accurately timestamped.
That's so much better than a RTC, having the correct time within several milliseconds.

No problem. No need of RTC or NTP.
My program saves the captured screen automatically immediately with date & time on harddisk.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on March 03, 2016, 11:55:31 am
A terrific feature, now that these oscilloscopes include an Ethernet interface, would be NTP synchronization, so that captures would be accurately timestamped.

That's so much better than a RTC, having the correct time within several milliseconds.

I would never connect a commercial test/measuring instrument to the internet, not even via a firewall.
Test/measuring instruments are not designed with security in mind.

I know, but you can do it safely if you are behind a NAT router. Unless the oscilloscope tries to "call home" or something (my Rigol certainly does not, I have tried and my Netflow didn't see anything but BOOTP/DHCP requests) there is no risk at all.

But in certain troubleshooting tasks, a ms-level synchronized clock can really help correlate events.

For example: I am trying to debug a hardware problem in a storage server. Wondering about power rail problems, I am planning to monitor the internal power rails (+5, -5, +12, -12) while I run some tests. The fault can take from 20 minutes to 2 hours to appear, and the tell-tale sign is a message in the system log.

If I could correlate a system log message with an oscilloscope trigger event with such kind of accuracy it would be a real help in a situation like this.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 03, 2016, 09:24:22 pm
I would never connect a commercial test/measuring instrument to the internet, not even via a firewall.
Test/measuring instruments are not designed with security in mind.

Agreed.

I know, but you can do it safely if you are behind a NAT router.

To each his own. Routers get hacked too, especially consumer-grade ones with shoddy manufacturer firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on March 03, 2016, 10:21:55 pm
I would never connect a commercial test/measuring instrument to the internet, not even via a firewall.
Test/measuring instruments are not designed with security in mind.

Agreed.

I know, but you can do it safely if you are behind a NAT router.

To each his own. Routers get hacked too, especially consumer-grade ones with shoddy manufacturer firmware.

Maybe, but realistically I'd strongly suggest that a technical risk assessment would show few prepubescent script monkeys are interested in targeting a Rigol scope, I'd suggest if they've got that far there are far bigger and easier fish to fry.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on March 04, 2016, 01:44:03 am
NTP usually just syncs the time and then uses an RTC to keep the time so it's not going to be that accurate anyhow, plus do you want to burden the already overworked processors and slow the scope down slightly more? I don't see a big gain on this since it can't be precise enough to sync say two pieces of test equipment to the point that the data will align perfectly.

Maybe you'll be able to sync them to +- 10ms, what will that give you?

Take into account that the time kept after sync depends on the scopes internal timing and two crystals will alias from each other because they are just not going to be at the same exact frequency and there is little you can do to compensate for that. And syncing for better than 1ms, forget about it without additional hardware and/or software if for example you could use the CPU instruction counter but that will drift with temperature or uptime.

Of course some kind of industry standard would be needed, still if you want to sync two or more pieces of test equipment and you are measuring signals at the micro or nano second scale, then you are going to be out of luck without putting a lot of money for the feature, which goes beyond what a budget scope like the one we are referring to is.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on March 04, 2016, 09:01:04 am
NTP usually just syncs the time and then uses an RTC to keep the time so it's not going to be that accurate anyhow, plus do you want to burden the already overworked processors and slow the scope down slightly more? I don't see a big gain on this since it can't be precise enough to sync say two pieces of test equipment to the point that the data will align perfectly.
A proper implementation of NTP in a proper operating system (read, not Windoze, where NTP seems to be like rocket science, according to the nightmares experienced by ham operators running JT modes) not just reads time, sets it, but it can slow down or accelerate the system clock so that it's really well adjusted.

NTP works very well on any Unix system such as FreeBSD, Mac OS X, Linux...

Quote
Maybe you'll be able to sync them to +- 10ms, what will that give you?
The ablity to determine which of a flood of debugging messages can correlate to, for example, an anomaly detected on a power line.

Quote
Take into account that the time kept after sync depends on the scopes internal timing and two crystals will alias from each other because they are just not going to be at the same exact frequency and there is little you can do to compensate for that. And syncing for better than 1ms, forget about it without additional hardware and/or software if for example you could use the CPU instruction counter but that will drift with temperature or uptime.

If properly done it's not "time after sync" :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on March 05, 2016, 06:15:50 pm
I stand by NTP not being too useful for a DS1054Z, as for being done properly and not needing "time after sync" do you care to elaborate?

Maybe you should read this:
http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-s-algo.htm (http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-s-algo.htm)

I could see some benefit for nanosecond synchronization but the hardware needed would be cost prohibited for entry level scopes.
Within a second might be useful for some, maybe add MIDI to them so it can be all synced at the macro scale:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI)

Nope I'm not really kidding, that protocol was developed pretty much for this purpose, it doesn't have to be all music :)

Edit: but then again, there is GPIB (IEEE-488) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE-488 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE-488)
but I don't know anything about that protocol since I never had to use it, but surely it can handle syncing various TE since it was done for that purpose.

Edit2: but thinking a bit more about it, for automated testing you have  SCPI (used on GPIB) already implemented via Ethernet (via LXI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAN_eXtensions_for_Instrumentation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAN_eXtensions_for_Instrumentation)) on the Rigol and other TE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Commands_for_Programmable_Instrumentation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Commands_for_Programmable_Instrumentation)
So you can use that for:
Quote
The ablity to determine which of a flood of debugging messages can correlate to, for example, an anomaly detected on a power line.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on March 06, 2016, 09:55:49 am
I stand by NTP not being too useful for a DS1054Z, as for being done properly and not needing "time after sync" do you care to elaborate?

Maybe you should read this:
http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-s-algo.htm (http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-s-algo.htm)

I could see some benefit for nanosecond synchronization but the hardware needed would be cost prohibited for entry level scopes.
In operating systems that support it, generally Unix systems, NTP can adjust the clock frequency to minimize error. So it's not just a program reading the time from a server and setting it afterwards, as ntpdate does.

This is the system call: https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=ntp_adjtime&sektion=2 (https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=ntp_adjtime&sektion=2)

The advantage of ntp in this case is, it's not complicated, these oscilloscopes already have an Ethernet interface, a TCP/IP stack and, quite for sure, a Linux or FreeBSD system, and NTP can be useful in places not exactly instrumentation-savvy like IT departments. Some people in those departments can't realize how useful an oscilloscope can be when diagnosing paranormal phenomena.

Anyway, just an idea that could help Rigol enter a market entirely new for them :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: luma on March 06, 2016, 07:22:24 pm
NTP isn't rocket science and it's widely implemented (and works just fine under Windows, not sure where that came from).  It's the bog-standard interface for network time delivery.  If there was going to be some sort of time synchronization it seems silly to use anything else.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on March 06, 2016, 09:41:48 pm
NTP isn't rocket science and it's widely implemented (and works just fine under Windows, not sure where that came from).  It's the bog-standard interface for network time delivery.  If there was going to be some sort of time synchronization it seems silly to use anything else.
Microsoft claims that their implementation does not support synchronization to a precision of one or two seconds, what they call high accuracy environments.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/939322

This certainly reflects what I've seen in the WSJT mailing lists, where people seem to be solving puzzles in order to keep an accurate time on Windows. Otherwise, why would anyone recommend a third party time synchronization program?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gmb42 on March 07, 2016, 09:16:35 am
NTP isn't rocket science and it's widely implemented (and works just fine under Windows, not sure where that came from).  It's the bog-standard interface for network time delivery.  If there was going to be some sort of time synchronization it seems silly to use anything else.
Microsoft claims that their implementation does not support synchronization to a precision of one or two seconds, what they call high accuracy environments.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/939322

This certainly reflects what I've seen in the WSJT mailing lists, where people seem to be solving puzzles in order to keep an accurate time on Windows. Otherwise, why would anyone recommend a third party time synchronization program?

It's not really a claim, more a statement of fact by the software provider, anyway for this OT diversion, the NTP application itself, as suggested by others, does work on Windows.  Whether it has sufficient accuracy  for some folks tasks is for discussion elsewhere.

As to whether I think a scope, whether a low end or high end needs NTP, the answer for me is no.  That's a very specific user requirement that's probably better handled in some other form.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on March 07, 2016, 09:59:32 am
It's not really a claim, more a statement of fact by the software provider,
I stand corrected (English is a second language for me) :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on March 10, 2016, 11:14:47 am
Arrived today from Tequipament!

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12504158/ELECTRONICS/IMG_0399.JPG)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12504158/ELECTRONICS/IMG_0400.JPG)

Any good (and working) site to generate the keys to unlock all features?

Calibration date sheet (certificate of calibration): 25-dec-2015 ....(working at xmas???)

Att
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on March 10, 2016, 11:58:33 am
Calibration date sheet (certificate of calibration): 25-dec-2015 ....(working at xmas???)

Att

Christmas isn't a holiday in China.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on March 10, 2016, 12:01:34 pm
Calibration date sheet (certificate of calibration): 25-dec-2015 ....(working at xmas???)

Att

Christmas isn't a holiday in China.

McBryce.


I know kkkk. :-+..but it is strage ins´t? :o i was with my family eating the xmas dinner...and someone in the other side of the world was at his job calibrating a oscilloscope... a world with many cultures...nice!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 10, 2016, 12:14:49 pm
Any good (and working) site to generate the keys to unlock all features?

Give it a good workout first... all features are working anyway (except 100MHz).

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on March 10, 2016, 12:27:17 pm
Calibration date sheet (certificate of calibration): 25-dec-2015 ....(working at xmas???)

Att

Christmas isn't a holiday in China.

McBryce.

I know kkkk. :-+..but it is strage ins´t? :o i was with my family eating the xmas dinner...and someone in the other side of the world was at his job calibrating a oscilloscope... a world with many cultures...nice!

Yeah, but looking from their side... You were probably working while they were off celebrating their new year, which was the 8th of February for us (and next year it's on the 28th of January, figure that one out!) and it was the start of year 4713!). Their leap year is also next year, not this year?

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mechatrommer on March 10, 2016, 01:20:55 pm
a "world" with many cultures...nice!
there are "countries" with many cultures. and each culture's holiday is the nation's holiday. isnt it nice? or nicer? or not?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xygor on March 10, 2016, 02:03:34 pm
Edit: but then again, there is GPIB (IEEE-488) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE-488 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE-488)
Then again, there is PTP (IEEE-1588) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1588
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on March 10, 2016, 04:21:31 pm
Why?

Samsung remote control (38KHZ)

1 - Tektronix TBS 1072B-EDU - triggering the signal with no problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D-BLVa-Gb4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D-BLVa-Gb4)

2- My Brand new, out of the box Rigol can´t trigger? Why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEUP6AzxIgw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEUP6AzxIgw)

What am i doing wrong?

Any help, or this is a DS1054Z triggering Flaw?


UPDATE: After changing the memory depth to 24Mpoints it triggered! But, in about 35 hrs of use, trial will be gone letting me with just 12Mpoints max...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 10, 2016, 05:16:33 pm
It is not visible clearly with the time resolution you chose on the scope screen, but I would assume that there always is a rising edge of the signal at the trigger timepoint (towards the left of the screen). I.e. the scope triggers as you asked it to do. But the IR signal is a complex pattern, and you have done nothing in your trigger settings to ensure that you always trigger on the same edge within the signal packet.

You will need to set a hold-off time, or e.g. set a trigger that becomes active at the end of a long high pulse (with a duration close to duration of the gap between two packets). Your Rigol scope can do that nicely.

The Tek scope probably has a slower waveform update rate, which causes the scope to be ready for the next sweep just in time for the next IR packet repeat. Increasing the memory size on the Rigol has a similar effect, I assume. But the match in times is just a coincidence; it is not the "proper" way to get a stable signal displayed. A suitable trigger setting as mentioned above is the way to go.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on March 10, 2016, 05:23:35 pm
It would probably make more sense to trigger on a pulse width of that longer high value at the beginning of the trace.

Also, there is an easy solution for 24M points going away :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 10, 2016, 05:29:32 pm
It would probably make more sense to trigger on a pulse width of that longer high value at the beginning of the trace.
Yes, that's what I said (or meant to say) in my second paragraph.

Also, there is an easy solution for 24M points going away :)
The same easy solution might also be required to retain the advanced triggering capabilities  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on March 10, 2016, 05:48:13 pm
It would probably make more sense to trigger on a pulse width of that longer high value at the beginning of the trace.
Yes, that's what I said (or meant to say) in my second paragraph.

Also, there is an easy solution for 24M points going away :)
The same easy solution might also be required to retain the advanced triggering capabilities  ;)


After setting 24MPTS  it triggered. But just at 10ms horiz.

https://youtu.be/YlqafSK8jds
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on March 10, 2016, 06:01:51 pm
After setting 24MPTS  it triggered. But just at 10ms horiz.
That's just a coincidence. You slowed down your scope to the point where period of sampling and period of signal line up for good triggering. It has nothing to do with 24 Mpts specifically and it is not a universal solution, it will fail on some other signal.

Use triggering on pulse with or some other feature for complex signals. That's why all those advanced triggering things are there.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on March 10, 2016, 06:04:47 pm
After setting 24MPTS  it triggered. But just at 10ms horiz.
That's just a coincidence. You slowed down your scope to the point where period of sampling and period of signal line up for good triggering. It has nothing to do with 24 Mpts specifically and it is not a universal solution, it will fail on some other signal.

Use triggering on pulse with or some other feature for complex signals. That's why all those advanced triggering things are there.

Didn´t worked none of them so far...i´ll investigate more...and explore more triggering options..thks...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nrxnrx on March 10, 2016, 06:22:37 pm
Hi!

It looks like the rigol is triggering just fine, but it's doing it a lot faster than the Tek and so it catches all the edges, not just the first. The Tek is set at 10m/div and the Rigol is at 5 - that may make a difference.

If you set your holdoff time to > ~100ms it should only trigger at the beginning of the packet. TriggerMenu->Setting->Holdoff

--
Mihai
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on March 10, 2016, 07:01:52 pm
Hi!

It looks like the rigol is triggering just fine, but it's doing it a lot faster than the Tek and so it catches all the edges, not just the first. The Tek is set at 10m/div and the Rigol is at 5 - that may make a difference.

If you set your holdoff time to > ~100ms it should only trigger at the beginning of the packet. TriggerMenu->Setting->Holdoff

--
Mihai

It worked set the holdoff to 100ms...but i´ve tried three times before get working...Thks..used to tektronix...now learning some new trick on this new one...thks again
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 10, 2016, 07:45:47 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=207653;image)

 :-// Looks like it's triggering perfectly to me.

ie. There's always a rising edge under the orange marker labelled with a 'T'

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 10, 2016, 07:48:41 pm
You should be able to get it to trigger properly (that is, as you expect on the first pulse in the repeating pulse train) using either Pulse or Nth (edge) triggering, with the proper other sub-settings for either type.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on March 10, 2016, 07:54:34 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=207653;image)

 :-// Looks like it's triggering perfectly to me.

ie. There's always a rising edge under the orange marker labelled with a 'T'

Yes u´re right. Maybe i used the wrong term. It is T´D, but the waveform is not stable to read...it keeps running on the screen... The trigger is at that position so i can see the hole waveform packet.

Look the latest video...that´s what i want..tks.. ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 10, 2016, 07:56:55 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=207653;image)

 :-// Looks like it's triggering perfectly to me.

ie. There's always a rising edge under the orange marker labelled with a 'T'

Yes u´re right. Maybe i used the wrong term. It is T´D, but the waveform is not stable to read...it keeps running on the screen... Look the latest video...that´s what i want..tks.. ;)


The Tek got lucky in that its memory holds a nice multiple of that particular signal. That means it always triggers in the roughly the same place in the burst of pulses. It probably wouldn't lock with a slightly longer/shorter signal.

If you want the Rigol to lock then you can use the "timeout trigger" to look for the gap between bursts of signal.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 10, 2016, 07:58:42 pm
Try "Nth" trigger, set "Edge" to 1 and "Idle" to a value just greater than the duration of the entire pulse train. (Looks like 85-90 ms would be good. Press the multifunction knob to get the setting keyboard, rather than just turning the knob to get the 85-90 ms Idle time. Leave Trigger Holdoff set to minimum value.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 10, 2016, 08:29:53 pm
How many more times do we want to ask and answer that same question today?  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 10, 2016, 08:33:03 pm
How many more times do we want to ask and answer that same question today?  :-//

What do you expect... it's only 400 dollars!
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on March 10, 2016, 08:35:13 pm
What do you expect... it's only 400 dollars!
 :popcorn:

Here we go ...  :-BROKE

+1  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on March 10, 2016, 08:35:54 pm
How many more times do we want to ask and answer that same question today?  :-//

As many times as it takes for the person who asked the question to fully understand the problem and the solution. Isn't that what Forums like this are for?

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on March 10, 2016, 08:39:30 pm
Isn't that what Forums like this are for?

It is. Don't get stressed. It was just a remark.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on March 10, 2016, 08:43:32 pm
Isn't that what Forums like this are for?

It is. Don't get stressed. It was just a remark.  ;)

Sorry, forgot the smiley, not stressed at all here :)

Bryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on March 10, 2016, 10:53:22 pm
How many more times do we want to ask and answer that same question today?  :-//

What do you expect... it's only 400 dollars!
 :popcorn:

expecting something better than the tek tbs 1072B-edu... ^-^.but i think it is so far...i lked a lot the rigol... :-+ and what about a link that unlock all teh features? a working one plz... :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on March 10, 2016, 11:16:25 pm
and what about a link that unlock all teh features?
Hint: go to your favorite search engine, and type in "Riglol 1.03d".

Once you get to the page, type in your unit's S/N in the first field, type in DSER in the Options field, and leave Privatekey blank. Then click Generate. Enter the generated key into the scope, and that's it (how-to is in the .pdf manual).

Doesn't get any easier than that.  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on March 10, 2016, 11:36:30 pm
and what about a link that unlock all teh features?
Hint: go to your favorite search engine, and type in "Riglol 1.03d".

Once you get to the page, type in your unit's S/N in the first field, type in DSER in the Options field, and leave Privatekey blank. Then click Generate. Enter the generated key into the scope, and that's it (how-to is in the .pdf manual).

Doesn't get any easier than that.  ;D

  - IT WORKED WITH DSER OPTINS..THKS
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lundmar on April 02, 2016, 09:30:49 am
@bingo, how fast is the screen capture on the DS1000z scope? I would think that because it supports png it's probably about 5.5 seconds to transfer a 37KB file already in png format but still transferring data at a mere 57344 bps

I'm getting ~4 seconds using the rigol screenshot utility from lxi-tools (http://lxi.github.io (http://lxi.github.io)). Tested on Ubuntu Linux:

Code: [Select]
$ time rigol_1000z_screenshot 10.42.0.42 test.bmp
Saved screenshot to test.bmp

real    0m4.094s
user    0m0.000s
sys     0m0.044s

The image is 800 x 480 x 24 and ~1.1MB in size.

Thats a transfer speed of ~2.3 Mbps - I don't think you can get much faster than that on the Rigol 1000z series scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on April 02, 2016, 12:08:09 pm
The image is 800 x 480 x 24 and ~1.1MB in size.
... I don't think you can get much faster than that on the Rigol 1000z series scope.

I can !
With my programm via LAN I can get the screen in ~0.9 .. 1.2s
The format is png 800x480 size ~30KB .. 60KB (depends on content).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 02, 2016, 12:52:44 pm
The image is 800 x 480 x 24 and ~1.1MB in size.
... I don't think you can get much faster than that on the Rigol 1000z series scope.

I can !
With my programm via LAN I can get the screen in ~0.9 .. 1.2s
The format is png 800x480 size ~30KB .. 60KB (depends on content).

DSRemote does the job in less than a second.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lundmar on April 02, 2016, 04:37:07 pm
The image is 800 x 480 x 24 and ~1.1MB in size.
... I don't think you can get much faster than that on the Rigol 1000z series scope.

I can !
With my programm via LAN I can get the screen in ~0.9 .. 1.2s
The format is png 800x480 size ~30KB .. 60KB (depends on content).

DSRemote does the job in less than a second.

I just gave dsremote a try - to me it seems to also be in the 4 seconds range? (my ethernet link speed is 100 Mbps)

As far as I can tell the image data transferred from a ds1000z series scope is bitmap only and it seems there is no way to change it to png (however, ds2000 series seems to support png).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on April 02, 2016, 05:36:50 pm
... the image data transferred from a ds1000z series scope is bitmap only and it seems there is no way to change it to png ...
Why don't you believe me? Transmitted as png and under 1 second.
Look here for testing:
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/zelinkaw54/upload/_Rigol-DSClient.rar (http://homepage.univie.ac.at/zelinkaw54/upload/_Rigol-DSClient.rar)

Programming Guide 07-2015 p.79:
  :DISP:DATA? ON,0,PNG     // transfers a screen as PNG
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 02, 2016, 05:57:44 pm
The image is 800 x 480 x 24 and ~1.1MB in size.
... I don't think you can get much faster than that on the Rigol 1000z series scope.

I can !
With my programm via LAN I can get the screen in ~0.9 .. 1.2s
The format is png 800x480 size ~30KB .. 60KB (depends on content).

DSRemote does the job in less than a second.

I just gave dsremote a try - to me it seems to also be in the 4 seconds range? (my ethernet link speed is 100 Mbps)

Try again via USB.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: elgonzo on April 02, 2016, 06:01:57 pm
... the image data transferred from a ds1000z series scope is bitmap only and it seems there is no way to change it to png ...
Why don't you believe me? Transmitted as png and under 1 second.
Look here for testing:
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/zelinkaw54/upload/_Rigol-DSClient.rar (http://homepage.univie.ac.at/zelinkaw54/upload/_Rigol-DSClient.rar)

Programming Guide 07-2015 p.79:
  :DISP:DATA? ON,0,PNG     // transfers a screen as PNG

Seems that PNG support did come with one of the firmware updates
(because the programming guide dated 09-2014,  page 2-63, does not mention any parameters for the DISPLAY:DATA? command).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lundmar on April 02, 2016, 09:11:59 pm
... the image data transferred from a ds1000z series scope is bitmap only and it seems there is no way to change it to png ...
Why don't you believe me? Transmitted as png and under 1 second.
Look here for testing:
http://homepage.univie.ac.at/zelinkaw54/upload/_Rigol-DSClient.rar (http://homepage.univie.ac.at/zelinkaw54/upload/_Rigol-DSClient.rar)

Programming Guide 07-2015 p.79:
  :DISP:DATA? ON,0,PNG     // transfers a screen as PNG

Seems that PNG support did come with one of the firmware updates
(because the programming guide dated 09-2014,  page 2-63, does not mention any parameters for the DISPLAY:DATA? command).

Indeed, after updating my firmware I now have the PNG feature available :)

@ankerwolf: Thanks for the tip. My fastest download now hits about 0.8s .
@karel: I forgot to mention that my interest is ethernet only, not usb but thanks anyway.

Why o why does one have to submit a request form for Rigol firmware and then wait an arbitrary amount of time for someone at Rigol to mail back a link to the firmware??? |O |O |O

My god Rigol, will ya just make the bloody firmware readily available for direct download on the related product pages - no hiding! Please!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tlu on April 15, 2016, 01:22:04 am
and what about a link that unlock all teh features?
Hint: go to your favorite search engine, and type in "Riglol 1.03d".

Once you get to the page, type in your unit's S/N in the first field, type in DSER in the Options field, and leave Privatekey blank. Then click Generate. Enter the generated key into the scope, and that's it (how-to is in the .pdf manual).

Doesn't get any easier than that.  ;D
Will this work with any firmware? I'm thinking of picking a brand new one up sometime this week. Please advise. Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on April 15, 2016, 01:28:40 am
Will this work with any firmware? I'm thinking of picking a brand new one up sometime this week. Please advise. Thanks
Yes.  :) The unlock code that's generated is based on the unit's S/N, not the hardware/firmware/software revisions.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tlu on April 15, 2016, 02:00:39 am
Will this work with any firmware? I'm thinking of picking a brand new one up sometime this week. Please advise. Thanks
Yes.  :) The unlock code that's generated is based on the unit's S/N, not the hardware/firmware/software revisions.
Thanks for the clarification. Very much appreciated and now I feel at ease about the purchase  ;D.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 15, 2016, 06:07:43 am
(snip)
Why o why does one have to submit a request form for Rigol firmware and then wait an arbitrary amount of time for someone at Rigol to mail back a link to the firmware??? |O |O |O

My god Rigol, will ya just make the bloody firmware readily available for direct download on the related product pages - no hiding! Please!

Just look at it as some kind of little joke.

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

 :-DD

-- and if you think that's funny... wait until you actually install the latest firmware update. Then you'll really be laughing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 15, 2016, 06:25:13 am
and what about a link that unlock all teh features?
Hint: go to your favorite search engine, and type in "Riglol 1.03d".

Once you get to the page, type in your unit's S/N in the first field, type in DSER in the Options field, and leave Privatekey blank. Then click Generate. Enter the generated key into the scope, and that's it (how-to is in the .pdf manual).

Doesn't get any easier than that.  ;D
Will this work with any firmware? I'm thinking of picking a brand new one up sometime this week. Please advise. Thanks

Works fine here with the latest fw and the version before that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ftonello on April 15, 2016, 09:57:34 am
and what about a link that unlock all teh features?
Hint: go to your favorite search engine, and type in "Riglol 1.03d".

Once you get to the page, type in your unit's S/N in the first field, type in DSER in the Options field, and leave Privatekey blank. Then click Generate. Enter the generated key into the scope, and that's it (how-to is in the .pdf manual).

Doesn't get any easier than that.  ;D
Will this work with any firmware? I'm thinking of picking a brand new one up sometime this week. Please advise. Thanks



It did worked for me! I bought a brand new one from tequipament, one month ago. Used the DSER with no problems.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark on April 19, 2016, 07:40:38 am
One of my DS1054Z units has a problem, it won't boot, all I get is all lights on and a continuously clicking relay (at approx 5Hz).  Anyone had the same problem? 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on April 19, 2016, 08:33:26 am
Gremlins, I am sure !
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 19, 2016, 04:09:39 pm
I have not heard of nor encountered a boot failure like that. If it's no longer under warranty, then it'll be interesting to see what the cause is.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on April 19, 2016, 04:20:17 pm
If it is no longer under warranty, I would check if it is possible to upload a new firmware via JTAG.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: miguelvp on April 19, 2016, 05:25:57 pm
One of my DS1054Z units has a problem, it won't boot, all I get is all lights on and a continuously clicking relay (at approx 5Hz).  Anyone had the same problem?

A quick search on the interwebs revealed this:
http://www.jackenhack.com/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-hangs-boot/ (http://www.jackenhack.com/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-hangs-boot/)

Only problem with the factory reset procedure is that the menu defaults to Chinese, so you'll have to change that back.
As far as they state on that post, it does retain upgrades if any were made.

Edit: but the freeze on boot on that case showed the Rigol logo so I'm not sure if it is the same problem, worth trying I think.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ytterligare on April 20, 2016, 12:34:38 pm

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

This page points to a document that says last firmware is Version?00.04.03.02.03 Date?2015-10-20

My 1054Z came today and it says : Software Version 00.04.03.SP2


Which one is the latest ? Is it worth to update ( downgrade ?) to 00.04.03.02.03 ...?  :-//
 
Anyhow...Riglol did his duty...  8) 8)

A.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 20, 2016, 11:54:53 pm

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

This page points to a document that says last firmware is Version?00.04.03.02.03 Date?2015-10-20

My 1054Z came today and it says : Software Version 00.04.03.SP2


Which one is the latest ? Is it worth to update ( downgrade ?) to 00.04.03.02.03 ...?  :-//
 
Anyhow...Riglol did his duty...  8) 8)

A.

00.04.03.02.03

is the latest user-installable firmware version (the scope calls this "software version"). In the normal (partial) System Info screen this version is identified as
 
Software Version 00.04.03.SP2

You can display the _complete_ System Info screen by pressing the Trigger section buttons (extreme right hand side)  Menu-Menu-Force-Menu very fast, then Utility-System-System Info.  If you don't see the complete system info screen, keep trying, you might not be pressing the Menu-Menu-Force-Menu sequence fast enough.

It is not possible, as far as I  know, to "downgrade" or roll back to an earlier firmware (software) version once a later version is installed.

Another way to tell if you have the 00.04.03.02.03 firmware installed is if you have the Pulses and Edges counters in the Horizontal Measurements menus, and the "Pluses" spelling error when you display these as Measurements.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 21, 2016, 12:04:10 am
One of my DS1054Z units has a problem, it won't boot, all I get is all lights on and a continuously clicking relay (at approx 5Hz).  Anyone had the same problem?

A quick search on the interwebs revealed this:
http://www.jackenhack.com/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-hangs-boot/ (http://www.jackenhack.com/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-hangs-boot/)

Only problem with the factory reset procedure is that the menu defaults to Chinese, so you'll have to change that back.
As far as they state on that post, it does retain upgrades if any were made.

Edit: but the freeze on boot on that case showed the Rigol logo so I'm not sure if it is the same problem, worth trying I think.

Not the same problem, no. Jackenhack is probably describing the "freeze bug" that I discovered and reported on last year, which seems to afflict many but not all DS1054z scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 when certain user settings are input. Scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 don't seem to suffer from this particular bug. 

Yes, it would be nice to know if the Factory Reset (5th left grey button) procedure fixes the problem Mark has.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Skimask on April 21, 2016, 12:06:00 am
Do the "enhancements" described in this thread apply to the MSOxxxxZ-S versions as well?
I've got my eyes on an MSO1074Z-S or MSO1104Z-S...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark on April 21, 2016, 12:44:07 pm
One of my DS1054Z units has a problem, it won't boot, all I get is all lights on and a continuously clicking relay (at approx 5Hz).  Anyone had the same problem?

A quick search on the interwebs revealed this:
http://www.jackenhack.com/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-hangs-boot/ (http://www.jackenhack.com/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-hangs-boot/)

Only problem with the factory reset procedure is that the menu defaults to Chinese, so you'll have to change that back.
As far as they state on that post, it does retain upgrades if any were made.

Edit: but the freeze on boot on that case showed the Rigol logo so I'm not sure if it is the same problem, worth trying I think.

Not the same problem, no. Jackenhack is probably describing the "freeze bug" that I discovered and reported on last year, which seems to afflict many but not all DS1054z scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 when certain user settings are input. Scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 don't seem to suffer from this particular bug. 

Yes, it would be nice to know if the Factory Reset (5th left grey button) procedure fixes the problem Mark has.

Negative.  I think it is power supply related, just a hunch.  The last time I used the scope a month ago it did the same thing, but I wiggled the mains lead and re-tried and it booted ok... but I don't think the mains lead is the problem unfortunately. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ytterligare on April 21, 2016, 03:19:11 pm
Software Version 00.04.03.SP2

You can display the _complete_ System Info screen by pressing the Trigger section buttons (extreme right hand side)  Menu-Menu-Force-Menu very fast, then Utility-System-System Info.  If you don't see the complete system info screen, keep trying, you might not be pressing the Menu-Menu-Force-Menu sequence fast enough.

It is not possible, as far as I  know, to "downgrade" or roll back to an earlier firmware (software) version once a later version is installed.

Another way to tell if you have the 00.04.03.02.03 firmware installed is if you have the Pulses and Edges counters in the Horizontal Measurements menus, and the "Pluses" spelling error when you display these as Measurements.

Ok thanks, I'll try the sequence, with some luck... |O
And BTW, yes...I've got "Pluses".. :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gardner on April 21, 2016, 03:31:40 pm
I have a dumb Q about the accuracy of the trigger level.

I have a brand new DS1054Z, Software Version 00.04.03.SP2, no hacks.

I was fiddling with a plain old rising edge triggering of a DC-coupled 5V square wave and I was kind of surprised at how inaccurate the trigger voltage level seemed be.  I find that it will not trigger reliably at less than ~430mV and will trigger reliably up to 7.3V.   Is it normal for the trigger level to be to inaccurate?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: XFDDesign on April 22, 2016, 05:46:33 pm
How are you getting 7.3V on a 5V square wave?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 22, 2016, 06:54:53 pm
How are you getting 7.3V on a 5V square wave?

And what's your vertical scale?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 22, 2016, 07:19:58 pm
So, builtin fft sucks ass. protocol decoding kind of sucks (and it's hard to have a stable trigger.. harder than other scopes i'm used to). Ultraview is heavy and slow.
Another piece of software that gets the data via lan/usb, apply fft and do serial decoding? does it exist?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gardner on April 22, 2016, 08:52:59 pm
Quote
How are you getting 7.3V on a 5V square wave?

And what's your vertical scale?

Well, part of it is just the overshoot/ringing on the transition.  Here's zoomed in and I've highlighted what I think is kind of strange.  The measurements say max voltage in the waveform is at 5.6V, but the waveform is above the trigger level which claims to be set to 6.4V.  Maybe I haven't gotten the hang of what the measurements mean -- there are so many crazy ones to choose from.

This is 5V/div and the waveform looks to go to about 7V on the graticule.  I wouldn't swear to how well 0V is lined up to the division below though.  The ringing/overshoot goes down about the same amount too.  Which I took to be what Vpp is measuring, but if the measurements are just based on what appears on the screen, then 7.8V makes sense vs. what appears against the graticule and who knows what the Max is getting at.

Anyhow, I am very new to this scope and although I have seen all the videos, I still am having trouble groking the features.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on April 22, 2016, 09:09:39 pm
I have no idea, why you measure a 5V signal in a 5V range !. Set it to 1V or maybe 2V / Div. You have 8 DIVs ! Its like measure a 1V signal with a 2000 counts Multimeter in the 1000V range, and wonder why you can't see the ..9V Digit. WHY ?
The Signal is in your 5V Range 5,6V: FINE.
Trigger setting on the overshoot ?? But works fine in your screen shot.
Vpp 7,6V looks fine for me.

So whats your problem ? Maybe time to read the manual ?!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 23, 2016, 01:02:58 am
Quote
How are you getting 7.3V on a 5V square wave?

And what's your vertical scale?

Well, part of it is just the overshoot/ringing on the transition.  Here's zoomed in and I've highlighted what I think is kind of strange.  The measurements say max voltage in the waveform is at 5.6V, but the waveform is above the trigger level which claims to be set to 6.4V.  Maybe I haven't gotten the hang of what the measurements mean -- there are so many crazy ones to choose from.

This is 5V/div and the waveform looks to go to about 7V on the graticule.  I wouldn't swear to how well 0V is lined up to the division below though.  The ringing/overshoot goes down about the same amount too.  Which I took to be what Vpp is measuring, but if the measurements are just based on what appears on the screen, then 7.8V makes sense vs. what appears against the graticule and who knows what the Max is getting at.

Anyhow, I am very new to this scope and although I have seen all the videos, I still am having trouble groking the features.

Hmm.... I'd say that the Vmax reading is wrong somehow. If you press the Help button and then the Vmax measurement button you'll see how the scope defines the vertical measurements. Yes, the measurements are taken from what is displayed on-screen, so your Vmax and Vpp should be a lot closer than what your measurement numbers are saying. The Trigger level and etc. seem to be indicating OK.

This is as close as I could get to your setup and signal (by clipping a small 20uH inductor between my DDS FG and the scope probe to get some visible ringing on the 1KHz positive pulse train). I could not duplicate the wide difference between Vmax and Vpp you are seeing -- the most difference I could get is 0.2 volts, as you can see here.

Have you let the scope warm up completely and then run the self-calibration routine?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 23, 2016, 12:27:16 pm
the measurements are taken from what is displayed on-screen

This is an important point. All the numbers you see on screen are calculated by looking at screen pixels. They are NOT calculated by looking at the original incoming voltage.

This is why it's important to maximize the height of the waveform on screen, eg. 1V/div for looking at 5V signals.

, so your Vmax and Vpp should be a lot closer than what your measurement numbers are saying.

There's also a measurement that tells you how much ringing there is.

The Trigger level and etc. seem to be indicating OK.
Yep.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Eheran on April 23, 2016, 01:41:30 pm
Quote
They are NOT calculated by looking at the original incoming voltage.
Well sure, they only measure with 8bit. How else could you do that? Unless you have the range properly adjusted you will simply not have any valid information.
Quote
by looking at screen pixels.
More like by looking at the raw data Points, so the actual Votage measured at each given point. If that would not be correct one could simply not see a Vmax of a very fast peak when looking at a larger timescale. I have not run into that problem so far - the Vmax does not change by zooming in or out of the Timescale when there is only that one max peak.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 24, 2016, 08:21:15 am
Quote
by looking at screen pixels.
More like by looking at the raw data Points
[/quote]

The two are mathematically equivalent.

The point is that before it arrives at the ADC the input signal goes through op-amps, etc., whose gain is based on your vertical scale setting.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: malekia on April 24, 2016, 02:41:18 pm
Hi, I've tried searching but can't find a solution.

I'm trying to save a file:
1) Press Storage button
2) Choose "Storage type" (Image, Waves, Setups, etc...)
3) Press Save
4) Navigate to internal storage

Why are the New File and Save buttons are greyed out?

I can only save to internal memory if the storage type is Param or Setups.

No issues saving to external storage.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on April 24, 2016, 07:33:25 pm
Hi, I've tried searching but can't find a solution.

I'm trying to save a file:
1) Press  File and Save buttons are greyed out?
I can only save to internal memory if the storage type is Param or Setups.
No issues saving to external storage.
Check manual section 13- 3 (User's Guide Jan.2014)
                      Section 14-3 (User's Guide Dec.2015)
Yes, only setup saved internally storage
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 24, 2016, 07:40:12 pm
Quote
I can only save to internal memory if the storage type is Param or Setups.

That's right.

You can also save and read mask files and reference waveform and waveform record files in internal storage, from their respective function menus.

See the manual. It's section 14 in my copy of the manual.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: malekia on April 24, 2016, 11:26:47 pm
Thanks for help!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Geoff_S on April 26, 2016, 09:50:01 pm
What is the general consensus about the serial decoding ability of the 1054Z ?  How would it compare to a Salaea LA ?  [I tried searching here but most of the hits related to serial numbers, not serial decoding...]
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 26, 2016, 10:22:02 pm
What is the general consensus about the serial decoding ability of the 1054Z ?  How would it compare to a Salaea LA ?  [I tried searching here but most of the hits related to serial numbers, not serial decoding...]

They're completely different beasts.

The DS1054Z decodes just what you can see on screen. You can zoom and pan to see different parts of the signal but it only works on the visible screen data. It can trigger on sequences of data, I2C addresses, stuff like that but it's a bit of a pain to enter the numbers using the rotating knob.

On the Saleae you press 'record' and record the signal for as long as you have RAM to store it. It decodes all the data in memory and you can search it for strings, addresses, etc. You use a mouse and keyboard.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Geoff_S on April 26, 2016, 10:53:58 pm
Thanks.  I've already got a Salaea, and pretty familiar with it.  I've just had a read through the Rigol manual and can see the basics of how it works, but it doesn't seem to say much about the ability to trigger on a sequence of data.  I'll keep reading and googling  :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Geoff_S on April 26, 2016, 10:58:32 pm
Last question for today :) - is TEquipment still offering discount coupon codes on the DS1054Z ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 27, 2016, 12:20:07 am
The code still works for more than just the scope, as far as I know.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Geoff_S on April 27, 2016, 02:05:10 am
I've read chapter 7 on serial decoding in the DS1054Z manual several times now, and still not clear - can you configure the 1054 to trigger on a certain character or string of serial characters ?  I've sure I'm missing something obvious...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ian.rees on April 27, 2016, 02:16:57 am
Another piece of software that gets the data via lan/usb, apply fft and do serial decoding? does it exist?

If you're comfortable with Python, I'm working on adding support to Python-IVI for Rigol DS1000Z between other projects.  Would be trivial to do FFTs, a bit more work to do serial decoding depending on what extent you want to take it (or perhaps it's easy to hook in to sigrok - not sure).  https://github.com/ianrrees/python-ivi/tree/20160421-add-rigol-ds1000z  Let me know if you use it, and whether you find any bugs or missing features that would be useful.   -Ian-
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 27, 2016, 06:29:32 am
I've read chapter 7 on serial decoding in the DS1054Z manual several times now, and still not clear - can you configure the 1054 to trigger on a certain character or string of serial characters ?  I've sure I'm missing something obvious...

Yes, you missed to read chapter 5: "RS232 Trigger", page 5-32 (106), Rigol user's Guide Dec. 2015.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 27, 2016, 07:44:58 am
I've read chapter 7 on serial decoding in the DS1054Z manual several times now, and still not clear - can you configure the 1054 to trigger on a certain character or string of serial characters ?  I've sure I'm missing something obvious...

Obvious: It's in the chapter called "triggering".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Geoff_S on April 27, 2016, 08:00:52 am
Thanks.  I thought it would be obvious...   |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 27, 2016, 11:19:45 am
I haven't been able to successfully trigger a spi bus with trigger in spi-mode. if you can't too, use trigger holdoff or trigger every nth pulse, so that every new window is a number of readings instead of triggering at each packet. zooming out i was able to successfully decode series of about sixteen 16bit messages at the same time (thank you, gigantic amount of memory)
which was a better result than with a picoscope 2202a
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 27, 2016, 12:15:28 pm
I haven't been able to successfully trigger a spi bus with trigger in spi-mode. if you can't too, use trigger holdoff or trigger every nth pulse, so that every new window is a number of readings instead of triggering at each packet. zooming out i was able to successfully decode series of about sixteen 16bit messages at the same time (thank you, gigantic amount of memory)
which was a better result than with a picoscope 2202a

If data comes in bursts then the "timeout trigger" works well for always triggering at the start of a packet.

Read the manual, learn the features.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Hinziman on May 06, 2016, 11:13:10 pm
and what about a link that unlock all teh features?
Hint: go to your favorite search engine, and type in "Riglol 1.03d".

Once you get to the page, type in your unit's S/N in the first field, type in DSER in the Options field, and leave Privatekey blank. Then click Generate. Enter the generated key into the scope, and that's it (how-to is in the .pdf manual).

Doesn't get any easier than that.  ;D
Will this work with any firmware? I'm thinking of picking a brand new one up sometime this week. Please advise. Thanks



It did worked for me! I bought a brand new one from tequipament, one month ago. Used the DSER with no problems.

It did not work for me...I have the latest firmware version, and it does not accept the code with DSER. Somehow it autofills the "privatekey" field. Can this be the problem?

This is quite a downer to be honest, need the SPI decoding NOW, and might need to cough up the doh for an official key....which was actually not part of the business case.

Thanks for an awesome thread btw :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 06, 2016, 11:44:04 pm
and what about a link that unlock all teh features?
Hint: go to your favorite search engine, and type in "Riglol 1.03d".

Once you get to the page, type in your unit's S/N in the first field, type in DSER in the Options field, and leave Privatekey blank. Then click Generate. Enter the generated key into the scope, and that's it (how-to is in the .pdf manual).

Doesn't get any easier than that.  ;D
Will this work with any firmware? I'm thinking of picking a brand new one up sometime this week. Please advise. Thanks



It did worked for me! I bought a brand new one from tequipament, one month ago. Used the DSER with no problems.

It did not work for me...I have the latest firmware version, and it does not accept the code with DSER. Somehow it autofills the "privatekey" field. Can this be the problem?

This is quite a downer to be honest, need the SPI decoding NOW, and might need to cough up the doh for an official key....which was actually not part of the business case.

Thanks for an awesome thread btw :)

---- Er..... Check your PMs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ArisTos on May 07, 2016, 07:26:59 am
I am still considering getting this scope. Is is still "upgrade-able"?  It is really tempting for €400.

Cheers.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: crispy_tofu on May 07, 2016, 07:33:07 am
I am still considering getting this scope. Is is still "upgrade-able"?  It is really tempting for €400.

Cheers.

Yes, it is still upgradeable.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kelroy on May 07, 2016, 09:55:56 am
Guys any new fw for the osciloscope?.

Actually i am on the 04.03.sp2

Regards, kelroy.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nrxnrx on May 07, 2016, 12:27:03 pm
Guys any new fw for the osciloscope?.

I check http://int.rigol.com/Product/Index/4 (http://int.rigol.com/Product/Index/4) every few days.
There's a download link for (what I assume is the latest) firmware on the right sidebar and it still points to 00.04.03.02.03 (4.03SP2).

No idea if they actually update it in a timely manner. The site seems to run on a Z80 and some pigeons.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on May 08, 2016, 02:14:53 am
Depends what you mean by timely. They don't often fix things, so it's not something that you need to check on a regular basis. The most recent firmware added some bugs.

I believe the firmware I'm running is about two versions behind the latest and seems to be one of the most responsive. Unless you're impacted by a specific problem that is fixed by a newer firmware, there's no need to update.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 08, 2016, 06:44:09 am
Anyone knows when they had changed the Boot Version to "0.0.1.4"?
And why the change was necessary?
(Is the new Boot Version included in the software update?)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=223211;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 08, 2016, 07:06:16 am
1. No, I don't. Maybe someone else does. When did you buy your scope?
2. I don't know. Does your scope still have all the bugs we have been discussing?
3. No, I don't think so. I don't think it's possible to upgrade the Boot Version with the "firmware update".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 08, 2016, 07:46:00 am
1. No, I don't. Maybe someone else does. When did you buy your scope?
The build date is on the screenshot. 9/11 2015. Bought on 4/29 2016, delivered one day later.
Quote
2. I don't know. Does your scope still have all the bugs we have been discussing?
Not sure which bugs are included in the last software version. Even not sure if my equipment is sufficient to detect them. At least I can confirm the "Pluses" and their counting error.
Quote
3. No, I don't think so. I don't think it's possible to upgrade the Boot Version with the "firmware update".
Disappointing.  So you still have version 1.2 or 1.3 on your scope?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 08, 2016, 08:53:30 am
1. No, I don't. Maybe someone else does. When did you buy your scope?
The build date is on the screenshot. 9/11 2015. Bought on 4/29 2016, delivered one day later.
Yes, the "build date" is the date of the firmware update you have. You bought your scope quite recently so the scope itself was probably built much more recently than September of 2015, hence it has the 0.0.1.4 Boot Version.
Quote
Quote
2. I don't know. Does your scope still have all the bugs we have been discussing?
Not sure which bugs are included in the last software version. Even not sure if my equipment is sufficient to detect them. At least I can confirm the "Pluses" and their counting error.
Well, there are several that you could check for, that have been discussed in various places. You could check for slow response to controls like the Vertical positioning control. You could see if you get RMS voltage reading measurements on channels with no actual inputs and even ground-coupled. You could check for the Measurements Freeze bug that causes all measurements to stop updating after some random time when Math is in use (using the Statistic "on" and Stat.Sel. "difference" settings to keep track of the number of updates before they stop). You could check for the Math horizontal offset/scaling error at 500 ns/div when in Average acquire mode and some two-channel Math function is being used. These are probably the most easily checked bugs that plague us.
Quote
Quote
3. No, I don't think so. I don't think it's possible to upgrade the Boot Version with the "firmware update".
Disappointing.  So you still have version 1.2 or 1.3 on your scope?
Yes, the unit I have now is the one Rigol sent me after the Freeze Bug issue that affects scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.2. It came to me with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 installed but the previous "software" version. I installed the 00.04.03.02.03 version myself, which did not update any Boot Version. I think if Rigol could have simply updated my old scope's Boot Version, they would have done it rather than sending me a whole new scope. I asked them several times about updating the Boot Version in the old scope with 0.0.1.2 and never got a real answer, so I think it can't be done. Some people with really early software versions reported that a "firmware" update did update their Boot Version, but that a long time ago and I don't think it is possible any more, for some reason only Rigol knows.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 08, 2016, 12:01:00 pm

Perhaps the best hint for the real build date is the date of calibration: 03/08 2016.

Not updating all parts of the software (incl. Boot Loader) to the current version looks somehow simply strange.   :o
(Every silly PC is able to perform a BIOS-Update...)

Regarding the bugs:
I have transformed your text into the following checklist (hoping I got it right):

1. Slow response to controls like the Vertical positioning control.
2. Occuring RMS voltage reading measurements on channels with no actual inputs and even ground-coupled.
3. Measurements Freeze bug that causes all measurements to stop updating after some random time when Math is in use.
(Using the Statistic "on" and Stat.Sel. "difference" settings to keep track of the number of updates before they stop).
4. Math horizontal offset/scaling error at 500 ns/div when in Average acquire mode and some two-channel Math function is being used.

It is difficult for me to answer the first point. I don´t know, how the scope has responsed with former software versions.  :-//
The other bugs will be checked. After this "I´ll be back" and report.

(To be honest: I doubt that the Boot Version 0.0.1.4 had solved a single one of the known bugs.)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poorchava on May 08, 2016, 02:19:31 pm
I agree with no. 1: the responsiveness of the vertical offset is horrendously bad...

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 08, 2016, 03:29:31 pm
I agree with no. 1: the responsiveness of the vertical offset is horrendously bad...

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

So... what Boot Version do you have?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poorchava on May 08, 2016, 03:34:28 pm
I will check when I get home.

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 08, 2016, 03:40:54 pm
Just fyi:

Illustration of the Measurements Fail bug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6kFfy8sW68 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6kFfy8sW68)
Yes, Rigol has been notified and they (Rigol USA) were able to reproduce this on their test scopes right away.

Screenshot below shows 5 bugs at once:
-"Pluses" spelling error
-Pulses miscounted
-RMS measurement on a grounded channel with no input at all
-Horizontal Math error at 500 ns/div
-All Measurements frozen, requires power-cycling reboot to get them started responding again

Don't get me wrong, it's a great scope, easy to use and value-packed. But it is important for users to be aware of the bugs, and I think that talking about them is one way to get Rigol to pay attention and get working on fixing them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 08, 2016, 05:06:36 pm
First things first: I can´t duplicate every bug. Perhaps wrong settings?

I can confirm bug #2 (wrong RMS value and ghost readings on other channels).
Settings: Channel 1 with probe test signal (1kHz squarewave, 3V, 50% duty-cycle), all other channels disconnected and coupled to ground.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=223324;image)

I can´t confirm bug#3 (freezing measurements).
Settings: Same as before, additional math function "FFT", Statistic "On" and Stat.Sel. "difference".
After more then 3 hours it was still updating...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=223326;image)

I can´t confirm bug#4 (horizontal offset/scaling error).
Settings: Channels 1 and 2 are connected with probe test signal. Channels 3 and 4 not active.
Horizontal: 500ns/div. Acquiring mode: Average. Math function "A+B".
Screen seems reasonable...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=223328;image)

Should I test with other settings? Or with longer duration?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 08, 2016, 09:32:15 pm
Perhaps the later Boot Version has fixed the Measurements Fail bug. If so, that's great!  But please try again with some other Math function, like a 2-channel addition or multiplication. If you have the bug the failure time seems completely random, sometimes it will fail in just a few iterations, sometimes much longer. But three hours is pretty long, maybe it's fixed, or maybe it doesn't fail with FFT selected in Math. Anyhow, please try again if you have time.

The Math 500 ns/div horizontal offset/scale bug will show up better, if you have it, if you use signals that have several full cycles displayed on the screen. Also your math is adding Ch1 to itself, not to Ch2. I don't know if that makes any difference, but please try an actual 2-channel Math function anyhow. (You have to select the Source channels for A and B in the Math menu.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poorchava on May 08, 2016, 10:20:42 pm


I agree with no. 1: the responsiveness of the vertical offset is horrendously bad...

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

So... what Boot Version do you have?

OK,  I've checked and I don't have boot version displayed. Only software version (04.03.SP2)  and board version (0.1.1).

Any way to show toe rest of the data?


Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on May 08, 2016, 10:50:48 pm
In the Trigger section of the scope, press the following buttons in quick succession: Menu, Menu, Force, Menu

Then, go back to the System Info screen by pressing Utility, System, System Info.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 09, 2016, 03:52:45 am
Perhaps the later Boot Version has fixed the Measurements Fail bug. If so, that's great!  But please try again with some other Math function, like a 2-channel addition or multiplication. If you have the bug the failure time seems completely random, sometimes it will fail in just a few iterations, sometimes much longer. But three hours is pretty long, maybe it's fixed, or maybe it doesn't fail with FFT selected in Math. Anyhow, please try again if you have time.
You can bet on it: I will do this.

Quote
The Math 500 ns/div horizontal offset/scale bug will show up better, if you have it, if you use signals that have several full cycles displayed on the screen.

I get a signal generator in a few days. A much better requirement for testing.

Quote
Also your math is adding Ch1 to itself, not to Ch2.
:wtf:  :palm:  |O I thought, I had done the right settings? Yeah! Murphy gets me. Everytime...

Quote
I don't know if that makes any difference,

In the previous case (Math A+B, SourceB coupled to channel2): It makes not.

Quote
but please try an actual 2-channel Math function anyhow.

For sure. But I am waiting until the FG arrives, to do more sophisticated tests. I will report then.

Quote
(You have to select the Source channels for A and B in the Math menu.)
:palm:  |O  |O  |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poorchava on May 09, 2016, 04:45:47 am
Boot version 0.0.1.2
Build date Sep-11-2015 (lol @ that date)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 09, 2016, 08:45:26 pm
Boot version 0.0.1.2
Build date Sep-11-2015 (lol @ that date)
With Boot Version 0.0.1.2 you _may_ have  the Freeze Bug that I discovered and that is discussed here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poorchava on May 10, 2016, 04:53:43 am
Yeah, I was able to lock the scope up, by playing with delayed time base, but I decided not to pursue warranty, as I'm not using delayed timebase much and I don't feel like losing it for a month os so before anybody resolves the claim.

If it's possible to update that on my own, then I will do that, but sending the scope away is a big no.

What I kinda fail to understand though, is why they have incorporated at least some part of hardware driver into bootloader that is designed to not be user-replaceable. Bad design IMO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 10, 2016, 05:17:57 am
What I kinda fail to understand though, is why they have incorporated at least some part of hardware driver into bootloader that is designed to not be user-replaceable.

Whatever the problem is, it's not caused by the bootloader.

Plenty of people have that particular bootloader and don't have the problem.

Bad design IMO.
Not really. If all the bootloader does is load the main firmware into memory, then ... what's to replace?  :-//

"Bad design" would be system that can be bricked by users trying to update their bootloader when there's no need.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wirehead on May 10, 2016, 05:55:33 am
It would be nice if Rigol could just chime in and at least give an update of what they're working on atm. It's not that much of a deal to do so, and they have a huge following in hobbyist market, it would be the "nicest thing to do"®  :-DD

Wish they would give us full-screen FFT and X-Y mode as well though.. FFT can be done from memory anyway, so it should be possible to hide the original traces. Same for X-Y...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Deuze on May 10, 2016, 07:18:39 am
Good topic, specially interested in the hack methods.  >:D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 10, 2016, 08:27:55 am
What I kinda fail to understand though, is why they have incorporated at least some part of hardware driver into bootloader that is designed to not be user-replaceable.

Whatever the problem is, it's not caused by the bootloader.

Plenty of people have that particular bootloader and don't have the problem.

Bad design IMO.
Not really. If all the bootloader does is load the main firmware into memory, then ... what's to replace?  :-//

"Bad design" would be system that can be bricked by users trying to update their bootloader when there's no need.

Er.... no. Every case that I know about of a scope that can be "locked up" due to the Freeze Bug is running Boot Version 0.0.1.2, no matter what "firmware" the scope is running. As you can see poorchava has the latest "firmware" revision but the older Boot Version, and he is able to reproduce the Freeze Bug. It _may_ be the case that _some_ scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 do not have the Freeze Bug, but I am still not convinced even of that much.
 
"Plenty of people have that particular bootloader and don't have the problem." .... the Poll indicates that nearly half the people who tried it were indeed able to get their scopes to freeze. But....
Many people did not seem to be able to follow the precise instructions, and some people have contaminated the Poll in that thread by reporting results from other models of the scope, such as 1074z and MSO versions and actual 1104z scopes. When the thread and poll was started we did not yet know how to display the full System Information screen that indicated which Boot Version was in use so we are missing data, but in every case that I am aware of where we _do_ have the full data, the scopes which freeze are running Boot Version 0.0.1.2.

And you and I have no idea just what the Boot Version actually does. A reasonable software design would have it just "load the main firmware from memory" but is anyone really confident that Rigol's software is "reasonable" at this point? 

Meanwhile -- if you know of a DS1054Z scope that is subject to the Freeze Bug but does NOT have Boot Version 0.0.1.2 installed, please report it. And if you know of one that DOES have Boot Version 0.0.1.2 installed but does NOT have the Freeze Bug, please let me know and I'll send a .stp setup file that contains all the conditions so that scope can be tested without having to worry whether the user actually did try the proper combination of conditions. Until we have such data, I'll continue to believe that the Freeze Bug is associated with Boot Version 0.0.1.2, since all the data we _do_ have -- including poorchava's test -- supports that conclusion. It may be the case that some combination of Boot Version 0.0.1.2 plus some hardware instability is required for the Freeze Bug, making the Boot Version 0.0.1.2 a _necessary_ condition but not a _sufficient_ one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 10, 2016, 10:53:20 am
Er.... no. Every case that I know about of a scope that can be "locked up" due to the Freeze Bug is running Boot Version 0.0.1.2, no matter what "firmware" the scope is running.

So?  :palm:

Think harder: The bootloader is roughly related to the date of manufacture. It might be a manufacturing problem for a single batch of oscilloscopes (this seems more likely to me). A bad batch of chips, a cockroach nest fell in the solder bath, ...

If it was purely the bootloader then all scopes with that bootloader would have the problem. They don't.

I really can't imagine that any code in the bootloader is being used once the system is up and running.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on May 10, 2016, 10:55:03 am
I really can't imagine that any code in the bootloader is being used once the system is up and running.
Unless it performs some hardware initialization, as it can happen with peecees and their "BIOS".

I mean, some poorly done initialization (or something that triggers a hardware fault in certain series) can indeed provoke an effect even though the boot loader is no longer running. Maybe the boot loader does something more than, well, loading the firmware, and different versions perform different initialization tasks so that what they call "firmware" doesn't require different files or hardware version checking.

We don't know :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 10, 2016, 11:34:24 am
Er.... no. Every case that I know about of a scope that can be "locked up" due to the Freeze Bug is running Boot Version 0.0.1.2, no matter what "firmware" the scope is running.

(snip)

If it was purely the bootloader then all scopes with that bootloader would have the problem. They don't.

(snip)

And I'm still not convinced that this is the case. As I asked before, if you know of a scope that is running Boot Version 0.0.1.2 and does not have the Freeze Bug, please let me know, and I'll send you (or the scope's owner) a setup file with the proper conditions to produce the bug. If you followed the original thread on that topic, you will see multiple cases where people said they didn't have the bug, but only later _when properly following directions_ found that they did indeed have it.

I'm not saying absolutely that all scopes with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 have the bug, but I'd love to properly test one such that is reported not to have it. And as I also said before, the Boot Version 0.0.1.2 seems to be _necessary_ but may not be _sufficient_, so I'm open to the idea that some interaction between the Boot Version and some hardware or other problem might be required for the Freeze Bug to occur. Only _proper_ testing will answer that question, and I'm not convinced yet that such proper testing has happened.

Furthermore, how do we actually know that the "Boot Version" functions as what we commonly know as a bootloader? After all.... what we have been calling "firmware" isn't even what the scope calls firmware -- the scope calls it "software" -- and what the scope calls "firmware" is something else entirely.

By the way, Fungus.... do you actually own a Rigol DS1054z yourself?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 10, 2016, 12:55:21 pm
Just for fun I had compared the system information in the upper post with mine.
It has changed since last time. Now my scope displays the following:

(No trick, no fake, no joke!)   :wtf:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=223814;image)

What the hell is going on?   :o  ???
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on May 10, 2016, 01:53:59 pm
I agree with Fungus. I think that those blaming the bootloader are falling into the logical trap of assuming that correlation implies causation.

Is the datasheet for this processor part available without NDA? The errata list would be an interesting read.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 10, 2016, 02:18:06 pm
I agree with Fungus. I think that those blaming the bootloader are falling into the logical trap of assuming that correlation implies causation.

Is the datasheet for this processor part available without NDA? The errata list would be an interesting read.

Feel free to present evidence that Boot Version 0.0.1.2 is _not_ the cause of the Freeze Bug problem.

As I've said multiple times now.... 1. The Boot Version 0.0.1.2 is _necessary_ but may not be _sufficient_ to cause the issue; and 2. if you or anyone else knows of a scope with Boot Version 0.0.1.2 that the user thinks does _not_ have the Freeze Bug, let's test it with a setup file that I'll provide which contains all the conditions necessary to produce the Freeze on scopes that are susceptible to it.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 10, 2016, 02:21:15 pm
Just for fun I had compared the system information in the upper post with mine.
It has changed since last time. Now my scope displays the following:

(No trick, no fake, no joke!)   :wtf:



What the hell is going on?   :o  ???

Better check inside to make sure the board is still there.....    :-DD

Welcome to the wonderful world of Rigol!  I've even had mine miscount the startup counts, reporting a smaller count value at a later date.

This is where someone usually chimes in and says "What did you expect, it's only 400 dollars..."    |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on May 10, 2016, 02:28:22 pm
This is where someone usually chimes in and says "What did you expect, it's only 400 dollars..."    |O

I don't know what you people expect - the thing is only $400 ...  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 10, 2016, 02:57:13 pm
Feel free to present evidence that Boot Version 0.0.1.2 is _not_ the cause of the Freeze Bug problem.

It makes no sense that it would be*, so:
a) You're the one making extraordinary claims
b) The burden of proof lies with you

(*) A bootloader by definition does just enough to get the machine running, and no more.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 10, 2016, 02:59:55 pm
This is where someone usually chimes in and says "What did you expect, it's only 400 dollars..."    |O

I don't know what you people expect - the thing is only $400 ...  :palm:

Well, it's true. It is only $400.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on May 10, 2016, 03:05:22 pm
Quote
Meanwhile -- if you know of a DS1054Z scope that is subject to the Freeze Bug but does NOT have Boot Version 0.0.1.2 installed, please report it. And if you know of one that DOES have Boot Version 0.0.1.2 installed but does NOT have the Freeze Bug, please let me know and I'll send a .stp setup

Hi alsetalokin4017, boot version 0.0.1.2 here, never been able to reproduce the freezing bug, happy to test your .stp file :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: poorchava on May 10, 2016, 03:17:19 pm
Its possible,  that the connection is opposite. Boot 0.0.1.2 doesn't  cause freeze bug. Maybe fixing the bug required some change in hardware and this hardware needed changes in bootloader,  and hence 0.0.1.3 came to be.

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 10, 2016, 04:57:09 pm

The three zero´s were somehow familar to me.
But from where?
And now I got it!

From here: https://youtu.be/WCSKXugQrP0?t=1m51s (https://youtu.be/WCSKXugQrP0?t=1m51s)

At least I know now what is coming next...   :-BROKE
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 11, 2016, 01:04:21 pm
This is where someone usually chimes in and says "What did you expect, it's only 400 dollars..."    |O

I don't know what you people expect - the thing is only $400 ...  :palm:
I expect it to do "what it says on the box". The manufacturer says it will do certain things, and sets the price point. So people purchase it at that price point and then find out that it does not perform as the manufacturer said. Is the purchaser at fault for expecting it to perform as claimed, whatever the manufacturer decides to sell it for?
It seems that some people think so.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 11, 2016, 01:08:47 pm
Its possible,  that the connection is opposite. Boot 0.0.1.2 doesn't  cause freeze bug. Maybe fixing the bug required some change in hardware and this hardware needed changes in bootloader,  and hence 0.0.1.3 came to be.

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.
That's a pretty big stretch, since Rigol evidently didn't know about the Freeze Bug until I reported it, and by that time all the scopes in the lab at RigolUSA were already running Boot Version 0.0.1.3 and couldn't reproduce the bug.... so they asked me to return my scope with 0.0.1.2 and replaced it with one having 0.0.1.3. Note that I did not initiate this swap, it was offered by Rigol USA and they even sent me the replacement _before_ I sent the earlier version back, so I had three days or so to test the two scopes side-by-side.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 11, 2016, 01:39:13 pm
Quote
Meanwhile -- if you know of a DS1054Z scope that is subject to the Freeze Bug but does NOT have Boot Version 0.0.1.2 installed, please report it. And if you know of one that DOES have Boot Version 0.0.1.2 installed but does NOT have the Freeze Bug, please let me know and I'll send a .stp setup

Hi alsetalokin4017, boot version 0.0.1.2 here, never been able to reproduce the freezing bug, happy to test your .stp file :-)

OK... try this. You'll have to unzip it because I can't upload a .stp file directly to the forum. If your scope _does_ freeze you can get it unfrozen by using the "5th grey button on left while booting" procedure to get it back to factory defaults, and the scope will come up in Chinese....

You may also want to review some of the videos I posted back in the day, like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3qLx1PYXyw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3qLx1PYXyw)

ETA: If people are hesitant to try the setup file here's a simplified set of instructions starting from the Default setup (Storage>Default) that worked for many people in the FreezeBug thread:
1. Display a signal on CH1 from the probe Calibrator, at 1V/div, trigger type Edge, trigger level 2.00 V, sweep mode Auto
2. Set Horizontal Scale to 1 us/div
3. Select "Auto" from Acquire>Mem Depth menu
4. Select "100 ms" from Display>Persis. Time menu
5. Enter Horizontal Zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on May 11, 2016, 01:43:36 pm
I expect it to do "what it says on the box". The manufacturer says it will do certain things, and sets the price point. So people purchase it at that price point and then find out that it does not perform as the manufacturer said. Is the purchaser at fault for expecting it to perform as claimed, whatever the manufacturer decides to sell it for?
It seems that some people think so.

Yep, and I've backed you on that too. If they want to add measurement "bling" to help market the thing, and the additions don't work right, then they should think about other things to add to help it sell, such as different case colors (consult Martha Stewart) or perhaps a talking menu system.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 11, 2016, 01:57:12 pm
OOohh.... I think a Pink or Purple case would look great ....     :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on May 11, 2016, 04:21:16 pm
OK... try this. You'll have to unzip it because I can't upload a .stp file directly to the forum. If your scope _does_ freeze you can get it unfrozen by using the "5th grey button on left while booting" procedure to get it back to factory defaults, and the scope will come up in Chinese....

Nope, can't reproduce  :-//
Loaded your setup file, tried with 1,2,3 and 4 channels, with and without signal applied.
Repeated every single step in your video starting from minute 1:20 and also followed your 5 points instructions
and abused Horizontal knob with and without zoom on...but no freeze here.

Attached my scope infos for reference.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 11, 2016, 04:48:52 pm

You have a scope with the "old"  Boot Version 0.0.1.2, but you have it switched on only 10 times?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 11, 2016, 04:59:02 pm
OK... try this. You'll have to unzip it because I can't upload a .stp file directly to the forum. If your scope _does_ freeze you can get it unfrozen by using the "5th grey button on left while booting" procedure to get it back to factory defaults, and the scope will come up in Chinese....

Nope, can't reproduce  :-//
Loaded your setup file, tried with 1,2,3 and 4 channels, with and without signal applied.
Repeated every single step in your video starting from minute 1:20 and also followed your 5 points instructions
and abused Horizontal knob with and without zoom on...but no freeze here.

Attached my scope infos for reference.

Well, good, thanks for trying. So you apparently don't have whatever hardware or other condition combines with the Boot Version 0.0.1.2 that produces the Freeze Bug.
It's not the new firmware that cures it, either, because when I had both scopes (0.0.1.2 and 0.0.1.3) side-by-side I installed the SP2 firmware in the old scope and it still froze when conditions were met. 

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 11, 2016, 05:01:35 pm

You have a scope with the "old"  Boot Version 0.0.1.2, but you have it switched on only 10 times?

It could be that the scope isn't counting correctly. I've seen that happen on my "new" scope with Boot Version 0.0.1.3 as well.

With over 3 days of total runtime ... if that's even correct ... one would think the scope would have been started more than 10 times...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Arlo1 on May 12, 2016, 06:05:22 am
Got a DS1054Z Monday and Hacked it right away.   

I take it 5ns is the smallest time scale?  Even with the 1104Z? 

All features show enabled and the system info says 1104Z   but with my 1052 it would go down to 2ns after the hack.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on May 12, 2016, 06:56:44 am
I take it 5ns is the smallest time scale?  Even with the 1104Z? 
Hacked 1074Z, 5 ns as well.

And according to the specs, the 1104Z begins at 5 ns as well.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on May 12, 2016, 07:32:25 am

You have a scope with the "old"  Boot Version 0.0.1.2, but you have it switched on only 10 times?

Defenitedly powered up more than 10 times  :)
I don't know why the power up counter says otherwise   :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on May 12, 2016, 07:35:04 am
Well, good, thanks for trying.

Thank you for all the effort you are putting trying to solve bugs and improve this
scope software
 :-+   :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 12, 2016, 12:02:18 pm
Status right now (Boot Version 0.0.1.4):

Confirmed:

- RMS Voltage readings on not connected (even ground-coupled) inputs.
- Measurement Freeze Bug. Stats frozen (after roughly 15 Minutes. See screenshot below.)
- "Pluses"-Error. The typo and also the counting error.

Not confirmed:

- Offset error at 500ns/div in average acquire mode with 2-channel Math function. (See screenshot below. Nothing obvious or flashy.)

BTW: My board (version 0.1.1) is back!  :clap:
It was on a short vacation, perhaps.

Should I do more tests?
Under which conditions (signals, settings, functions...)?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=224405;image)

(Sorry for the heavy ringing on the square wave. I have to visit my preferred dealer immediatly! There is a need for some more stuff...)

After the Stats are frozen the scope is full responsive.
Exception: The Stats can not be activated again. (See below.)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=224412;image)


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 12, 2016, 01:21:03 pm
@ProBang2: Thanks for trying those tests!  When the Measurements stop working, I think it's not just the "Stats" but all Measurements no longer work.

I set my system up to the same parameters as your shots, and I didn't get the Math horizontal error either ! Did you fix my scope by remote control?   :wtf: 
See the first screenshot below.

Then I remembered that I needed to have another channel turned on for the Math error to show up .... See the second screenshot below.    :P

(I have found that "Stopping" the scope makes screensaves go much faster, usually.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 12, 2016, 02:04:25 pm
Vertical offset error now confirmed... (Yeah, it would have been too nice...)
Immediatly when the third channel is on.
BTW: It runs with this settings (and two channels) happily since over one hour. Strange...
(And, just for fun, count the pulses.)

Update: Stats frozen at "Cnt: 11k884" after 1h 12min.
The measurement buttons at the left side of the screen are responsive, but the measurements are not working. Confirmation again.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on May 12, 2016, 03:27:38 pm
Doesn't Rigol or there distributors give refunds?   With all these reported problems, I would expect the users to have returned the scope for credit and used the funds to buy something else.  See?  No more problems!

Digital scopes are software, software is always trash, you would think people would be used to it by now.  The Measurements screen I don't have on my Tek 465 has never frozen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 12, 2016, 03:43:04 pm
@ProBang2:
Thanks for testing! Now I know I'm not totally crazy... yet.  In my experience the Measurements can fail at random times, I've seen them fail as early as 700 counts or even fewer. So I've developed the habit of setting up Math but leaving it off, and turning Math on only when I really need to see what it's doing, as the Measurement failure only seems to happen when Math is on.

@rstofer:
Hey... it's still the "best bang for the buck", 400 dollars (or the equivalent in Euros) won't buy much of anything else... although the new GWInstek scopes are looking really nice....

Digital scopes are software, that's true enough, but at least this one doesn't run on top of a _Windows_ OS like the last LeCroy I used........   :palm:
(But it's nice to be able to surf the web and watch YouTube videos on your oscilloscope......  :clap:  )


So anyway, there are workarounds for most of these Rigol bugs, and the more we publish and talk about the bugs, the more incentive Rigol has to fix them in future firmware updates (I hope)...   :rant:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 12, 2016, 04:03:36 pm

@ProBang2:
Thanks for testing! Now I know I'm not totally crazy... yet.

You are welcome. I am happy if I could help you.
Have we missed a bug?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on May 12, 2016, 04:14:04 pm
Has anyone considered creating a Rigol DS1000Z bug thread, for confirmed issues? I keep thinking about this scope and end up getting distracted.

Someone mentioned 5ns/ is the lowest resolution time setting. I'm confused, if this is a 100MHz scope, and the 1052 goes down to 2ns? What would be the point?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on May 12, 2016, 04:22:58 pm
Has anyone considered creating a Rigol DS1000Z bug thread, for confirmed issues? I keep thinking about this scope and end up getting distracted.

Something like this, maybe?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 12, 2016, 04:51:00 pm
Has anyone considered creating a Rigol DS1000Z bug thread, for confirmed issues? I keep thinking about this scope and end up getting distracted.

Something like this, maybe?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-%28ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models%29-bugswish-list/)

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me. That's an old thread though and the list in the first page isn't being updated, as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on May 12, 2016, 04:59:28 pm
yep, something like that, and reply #257 sort of ends the thread:

"so you see most bugs reported here are fixed, or at least i've not experience them so far..."

Some of what I've read seem to be related to obscure settings. Other's I'm not sure about, mostly because I do not have the scope or anything similar that I can experiment with.

But I'll keep reading.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 12, 2016, 05:04:48 pm
Has anyone considered creating a Rigol DS1000Z bug thread, for confirmed issues? I keep thinking about this scope and end up getting distracted.

Someone mentioned 5ns/ is the lowest resolution time setting. I'm confused, if this is a 100MHz scope, and the 1052 goes down to 2ns? What would be the point?

5 ns/div is the fastest setting available, whether "virgin" 50 MHz or "unlocked" 100MHz. But somebody has pointed out that even this may not be a "real" setting but is actually a digital zoom of the 10 ns/div timebase screen data.  I don't know how to test or confirm this though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 13, 2016, 11:08:42 am
Doesn't Rigol or there distributors give refunds?   With all these reported problems, I would expect the users to have returned the scope for credit and used the funds to buy something else.  See?  No more problems!

You have a better option for $400?

(and no, a 20-year old green-screen Tek that occupies a whole table by itself isn't an option)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on May 13, 2016, 11:20:24 am
(but i like that 40 year old tek that's actually deeper than my workbench  ;D ;D )

I'd say a 2 channel GWi but those in the price range don't have protocol trigger/decoding

though you *can* find lecroy 9300 for that price range, even recalibrated sometimes
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on May 13, 2016, 11:23:03 am
(and no, a 20-year old green-screen Tek that occupies a whole table by itself isn't an option)
If you don't need the protocol decoding, there are old Lecroys that are really capable: the LC and LT series  :box:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sync on May 13, 2016, 11:45:11 am
Someone mentioned 5ns/ is the lowest resolution time setting. I'm confused, if this is a 100MHz scope, and the 1052 goes down to 2ns? What would be the point?
The 1000Z have 50 pixels/div horizontally where as the 1000E only has 25.
Vertically both have 25 pixels/div effectively because the 1000z uses pixel doubling.

But somebody has pointed out that even this may not be a "real" setting but is actually a digital zoom of the 10 ns/div timebase screen data.
No, that's not true. But keep in mind that at 5ns/div there are only 5 samples per div. So one sample per 10 pixels.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 13, 2016, 11:54:54 am
5 ns/div is the fastest setting available, whether "virgin" 50 MHz or "unlocked" 100MHz. But somebody has pointed out that even this may not be a "real" setting but is actually a digital zoom of the 10 ns/div timebase screen data.  I don't know how to test or confirm this though.

I can't see how there could be such a thing as a "non-real", zoomed timebase setting. The scope samples at 1 Gsample/s (in single channel mode), and will display these samples (or an interpolation, in line display mode) on the time scale setting you select. If you switch the display to dot mode, you should directly see the 5 dots per division.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 13, 2016, 12:03:41 pm
Has anyone considered creating a Rigol DS1000Z bug thread, for confirmed issues? I keep thinking about this scope and end up getting distracted.

It won't work. The obsessives have shown they can turn any thread that mentions a DS1054Z into a "DS1054Z bugs" thread. It's like they're on a mission or something, even though (a) The bugs are minor in practice, and (b) Other oscilloscopes have bugs too (even old Teks which have a fraction of the features of a DS1054Z).

Someone mentioned 5ns/ is the lowest resolution time setting. I'm confused, if this is a 100MHz scope, and the 1052 goes down to 2ns? What would be the point?
Signals on oscilloscopes aren't usually shown by connecting the dots, they're reconstructed using interpolation functions (eg. sin(x)/x ). Theoretically you can go much smaller than the data sample rate and still see useful information.

Watch these two videos if you haven't already: https://xiph.org/video/
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 13, 2016, 12:19:45 pm
Some of what I've read seem to be related to obscure settings.

Yes. Some of them seem to be obscure batches of hardware that most people will never own.

Other's I'm not sure about, mostly because I do not have the scope or anything similar that I can experiment with.

The DS1054Z is a very useful device at an unbelievable price. You're not doing yourself any favors by reading these "bug" threads. You have to work hard to get most of the bugs to appear. Some people take several attempts to get the settings just right (see previous page). In normal use you'll never see them (insert somebody saying "those settings are normal for me")

If a function is really, really important to you then make sure it's not on the list.

Otherwise ... just get one. You certainly won't regret it.

(and the next firmware update might even fix the few remaining bugs being debated here)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on May 13, 2016, 03:15:49 pm
Some of what I've read seem to be related to obscure settings.

Yes. Some of them seem to be obscure batches of hardware that most people will never own.

Other's I'm not sure about, mostly because I do not have the scope or anything similar that I can experiment with.

The DS1054Z is a very useful device at an unbelievable price. You're not doing yourself any favors by reading these "bug" threads. You have to work hard to get most of the bugs to appear. Some people take several attempts to get the settings just right (see previous page). In normal use you'll never see them (insert somebody saying "those settings are normal for me")

If a function is really, really important to you then make sure it's not on the list.

Otherwise ... just get one. You certainly won't regret it.

(and the next firmware update might even fix the few remaining bugs being debated here)

I read this entire thread about a month ago and decided to just ignore the entire sequence.  I bought the scope and it works for me.

It reminds me of the old joke:  Put 2 Marines in a room with two ball bearings.  Come back in ten minutes and one will be lost and other broken.

Just ignore this thread and buy the scope.  It'll work fine!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Arlo1 on May 13, 2016, 03:18:37 pm
I have ultrascope for the ds1000e series.

But now I am trying to get ultrascope for the ds1000z series working and it says its installed and I can't find it on my computer....

I have ultrasigma do I open that to find the ultrascope?

I tried removing the old ultrascope to see if that would help with no luck.

It does not tell me where the file folder is for the installed untrascope and my computer search feature can not find it.

Using windows 7   anyone else have this problem?   I just use it for looking at data (waveforms) later on a flash drive.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 13, 2016, 04:35:32 pm
Hello.

Start the DS1054Z.
Start Ultra Sigma.

In the Ultra Sigma window appears the scope.
Now klick with the right mousebutton on this entry.

Should show the following:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=224691;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Arlo1 on May 13, 2016, 07:54:24 pm
Ok thanks but I want to be able to look at saved files from my flash drive without hooking my scope up to my computer  will this allow that?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 14, 2016, 06:40:08 am
Ok thanks but I want to be able to look at saved files from my flash drive without hooking my scope up to my computer  will this allow that?

You don't need ultrascope for that. Just plug the flash drive into your computer, there's the files.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 14, 2016, 01:32:25 pm
Some of what I've read seem to be related to obscure settings.

Yes. Some of them seem to be obscure batches of hardware that most people will never own.

Other's I'm not sure about, mostly because I do not have the scope or anything similar that I can experiment with.

The DS1054Z is a very useful device at an unbelievable price. You're not doing yourself any favors by reading these "bug" threads. You have to work hard to get most of the bugs to appear. Some people take several attempts to get the settings just right (see previous page). In normal use you'll never see them (insert somebody saying "those settings are normal for me")

Not true. Every bug I've reported has occurred in my normal use of the scope's ordinary functions.  I've even presented an ordinary setup where 5 bugs are present simultaneously.

Do you consider it using "obscure settings"  or difficult to achieve settings, to have _all_ Measurements stop working when a Math function is in use? I sure don't.

Quote

If a function is really, really important to you then make sure it's not on the list.


How is a person supposed to do that, if "you're not doing yourself any favors by reading thes "bug" threads"? Really, make up your mind. Either the bug threads are useful, or they aren't (then why are you reading them?)

Quote

Otherwise ... just get one. You certainly won't regret it.

(and the next firmware update might even fix the few remaining bugs being debated here)

Let's hope so, and that it does it without introducing several _new_ bugs like the last firmware update did.



I'll ask you again, Fungus: Do you actually own a Rigol DS1054z scope? What do you use it for? Can you post some representative screenshots from your own routine use of the scope.... if you have one?

And no... I certainly don't regret my choice of the DS1054z... after all, I'm looking at the _third_ physical unit sitting on my workbench now.....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Arlo1 on May 14, 2016, 02:35:16 pm
Ok thanks but I want to be able to look at saved files from my flash drive without hooking my scope up to my computer  will this allow that?

You don't need ultrascope for that. Just plug the flash drive into your computer, there's the files.

Lol ok...  But my computer does not know how to open them......
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 14, 2016, 04:24:52 pm
Just plug the flash drive into your computer, there's the files.
Lol ok...  But my computer does not know how to open them......

OK, so you know what to do next. Find out!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on May 15, 2016, 06:08:50 am
Is this a bug?
i plug in an usb stick, press print. file saved (quick_screenshot_X. i plug out and no it was not saved.
i plug it in again, press print (a file with the same number as before: quick_screenshot_x). press print again, file saved (quick_screenshot_X+1) but when i plug the memory in and look at the files i only see quick_screenshot_x, the last file is never saved.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Arlo1 on May 15, 2016, 06:42:43 am
Just plug the flash drive into your computer, there's the files.
Lol ok...  But my computer does not know how to open them......

OK, so you know what to do next. Find out!

That's why I posted here.....   I let my computer search with no luck.  I downloaded ultrascope for 1104Z and no luck and I have searched online with no luck.....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on May 15, 2016, 07:28:20 am
Arlo,

The scope can save several different kinds of files. Which kind are you saving and trying to view on the computer?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on May 15, 2016, 07:28:57 am
That's why I posted here.....   I let my computer search with no luck.  I downloaded ultrascope for 1104Z and no luck and I have searched online with no luck.....

It's not completely clear to me what you want to achive. Do you want to visualize saved waveforms on your pc?
In that case use Scilab, Octave or EDFbrowser. They are all free.

http://www.scilab.org/ (http://www.scilab.org/)

https://www.gnu.org/software/octave/ (https://www.gnu.org/software/octave/)

http://www.teuniz.net/edfbrowser/ (http://www.teuniz.net/edfbrowser/)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 15, 2016, 10:01:57 am
Just plug the flash drive into your computer, there's the files.
Lol ok...  But my computer does not know how to open them......
OK, so you know what to do next. Find out!
That's why I posted here..... 

But... you didn't tell us what sort of file you're looking at and trying to open.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitwelder on May 15, 2016, 11:14:18 am
But... you didn't tell us what sort of file you're looking at and trying to open.
And didn't tell either what type of computer is being used that operation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Arlo1 on May 15, 2016, 03:55:42 pm
Just plug the flash drive into your computer, there's the files.
Lol ok...  But my computer does not know how to open them......
OK, so you know what to do next. Find out!
That's why I posted here..... 

But... you didn't tell us what sort of file you're looking at and trying to open.
.wfm  files.   I was using ultra scope to look at them with my ds2052e but now I can't do that.    I save them on my flash drive at my shop then bring them home and if I have any questions about the data I can open it on my laptop or desktop at home which are both running windows 7.   Sorry I thought I posted all of this the first time I asked about it.   
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on May 16, 2016, 07:02:24 pm
Thanks for the replies and video links (which I will watch presently).

I have a question again about decoding and recording a signal. There is 12M memory. About how long in seconds of a typical 115kbps serial comm could it record, and then would it be able to decode any segment later, once positioned in the display? Could this saved signal be transferred in some way to a computer, perhaps as CSV or other data format, and then analyzed on a PC with other software (such as Rigol's or other)?

I think I am weakening and desire just to have will overcome.  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on May 17, 2016, 06:33:42 am
There is 12M memory.

Nope, there's 24Mpts. You just need to "activate" it.

About how long in seconds of a typical 115kbps serial comm could it record, and then would it be able to decode any segment later, once positioned in the display?

Depends on the selected timebase & samplerate. With only one channel switched on, you can set the timebase to 1 sec/div.
Samplerate will be 2MSa/s which is acceptable for 115K2bps and you can "record" 12 seconds.

There's a caveat. When you zoom into the signal for decoding, the bit stream must be positioned horizontally in such a way
that the first visible bit on the screen is a startbit. If not, decoding will be incorrect.

Could this saved signal be transferred in some way to a computer, perhaps as CSV or other data format, and then analyzed on a PC with other software (such as Rigol's or other)?

Yes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metzjtm on May 30, 2016, 05:16:09 am
Anyone knows when they had changed the Boot Version to "0.0.1.4"?
And why the change was necessary?
(Is the new Boot Version included in the software update?)



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=223211;image)

I got mine on 4/22/2016 it is 0.0.1.4 boot  and Firmware 0.2.3.11 also CPLD Ver. 1.1 and board 0.1.1. I have not been able to do the upgrade.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metzjtm on May 30, 2016, 05:28:56 am
I have not been successful with the 1054Z speed upgrade. Invalid key err. I hope I am missing something. It's just so straight forward.   

edit: I think I'll try telnet from a fedora 23 box. Just have to find the process in the manual. Wish me luck.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 30, 2016, 05:41:19 am
I have not been successful with the 1054Z speed upgrade. Invalid key err. I hope I am missing something. It's just so straight forward.   

edit: I think I'll try telnet from a fedora 23 box. Just have to find the process in the manual. Wish me luck.

Check your PMs. And don't keep trying an invalid key, you'll get locked out for 12 hours of runtime if you fail three times.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 30, 2016, 05:53:19 am

@ metzjtm

Please modify your post to do the quote correct.

Indeed I had no problem to hack the scope (Trigger, Memory, Bandwidth) with the generated key from the known website.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 30, 2016, 06:31:56 am
If you have correctly set up your IP connection to your LAN using DHCP you should see a screen something like this, in Utility>IO Setting>LAN Conf.

Then you can use your telnet application to talk to the scope on port 5555:

telnet [IP Address] 5555

and telnet should tell you it's connected. Check by asking for the device ID:

*IDN?

The scope should reply with its model, SN and software version.

Then you can send SCPI commands to install/remove Options, control the scope remotely, etc. The SCPI commands are found in the Programming Guide:
http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metzjtm on May 30, 2016, 07:35:45 am

@ metzjtm

Please modify your post to do the quote correct.

Indeed I had no problem to hack the scope (Trigger, Memory, Bandwidth) with the generated key from the known website.

ProBang2 I only have 3 post. I can not find the one with the offending problem. I am happy to correct the problem if I can find it. The Jim Bean may have gotten in my eye. Sorry

Thank You alsetalokin4017 for you help with the Rigol DS1054. Looks like we now know the upgrade will work with the 1.4 boot and 4.3.2.3 software via telnet.

OK ProBang2 I think I found what you mean. fixed. Thanks for the heads up!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: freebil on June 02, 2016, 01:09:48 pm
Hello. I am interested in buying an oscilloscope and I would like to know some things.

1) For ds1054z, what it shows if I put a sine wave 70Mhz? Is it showing something different than if the ds1054z is hacked to 100Mhz?
2) For hacked ds1054z, is 100Mhz the absolute limit? What it shows for 110Mhz signals?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on June 02, 2016, 01:25:19 pm
Hello. I am interested in buying an oscilloscope and I would like to know some things.

1) For ds1054z, what it shows if I put a sine wave 70Mhz? Is it showing something different than if the ds1054z is hacked to 100Mhz?

It still shows a sine wave, it's just lower in amplitude.

Quote
2) For hacked ds1054z, is 100Mhz the absolute limit? What it shows for 110Mhz signals?

Still shows signals way above 110 MHz, they are simply attenuated. 100 MHz is just the -3 dB point.

Edit: I'll post a screen shot to this effect later ...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on June 02, 2016, 02:29:52 pm
So for example, here is a 440 MHz sine wave as displayed on my DS1054Z (100 MHz hacked). Is the amplitude correct? No, but still, you can clearly use the scope to follow it through a circuit. Even going higher in freq. it still displays the signal but it starts to look a little squirrelly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: freebil on June 02, 2016, 02:32:45 pm
Thank you very much for your help! For frequency meter of the scope, I assume that it shows wrong frequency. Right?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on June 02, 2016, 02:42:51 pm
... I assume that it shows wrong frequency. Right?

The built-in hardware frequency counter - oh hell it's way wrong. But, the frequency measurement you can choose from the left menu, derived from the sample data, it's actually pretty damn close, flickering a bit, but pretty close.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on June 02, 2016, 03:45:27 pm
I think I would rather rely on the cursors. Anyway, does the hack actually affect the signal trace of higher frequencies? You mentioned the 3dB point, so is this artificially induced on non-hacked scopes? Or what is the effect of this one hack?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 02, 2016, 05:31:31 pm
Although the hardware frequency counter can be wrong under certain circumstances, when I compared mine using the output of a calibrated function generator that I borrowed, it was spot on to the last decimal place.

So, don't just blindly assume that the number is correct. Verify that it makes sense either by looking at the wavelength and estimating the expected frequency, turn on the software frequency measurement from the menu on the left of the screen, or use the cursors.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 02, 2016, 06:11:59 pm
Anyway, does the hack actually affect the signal trace of higher frequencies? You mentioned the 3dB point, so is this artificially induced on non-hacked scopes? Or what is the effect of this one hack?

There is an actual analog low-pass filter in the scope's input. It is switchable to three different configurations under firmware control, and that is what distinguishes the different models in the DS1000Z series. A hacked DS1054Z will have the same input configuration as a DS1104Z.

Dave has done a video where he reverse-engineers the input section of the DS1000Z scopes and draws a schematic, if you are curious.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on June 02, 2016, 06:30:06 pm
Although the hardware frequency counter can be wrong under certain circumstances, when I compared mine using the output of a calibrated function generator that I borrowed, it was spot on to the last decimal place.

Hi bitseeker, what I was referring to in that post was the high frequency of 440 MHz, which cannot be measured by the hardware freq. counter.

I just did an experiment, which I hadn't tried ever before, to see how high the hardware and "software" freq. counters could be usable.

I found that the hardware counter basically stopped being usable at 103 MHz, so it's in some way still tied to the "official" or hacked BW. After 103 MHz, the readouts it gave were non-sensical. I was feeding the scope about 440 mV RMS from my generator. Maybe someone else can confirm this.

But the software freq. calculation was working (roughly) up to 440 MHz. It ain't a very accurate readout (+/- 5 MHz) at that high a frequency, but it was hanging in there.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on June 02, 2016, 11:55:07 pm
I think I would rather rely on the cursors. Anyway, does the hack actually affect the signal trace of higher frequencies? You mentioned the 3dB point, so is this artificially induced on non-hacked scopes? Or what is the effect of this one hack?
@Metrologist
So you can better understand BW control see:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg353571/#msg353571 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg353571/#msg353571)
To see how it is the hardware that sets the bandwidth . But the Bandwidth is selectable in the firmware.
We found out that the DS 70mhz was the same as 100mhz. That chip was the Lmh6518. A similar chip is used in the DS1054Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 03, 2016, 12:31:13 am
Hi bitseeker, what I was referring to in that post was the high frequency of 440 MHz, which cannot be measured by the hardware freq. counter.

Oh, I see. Is the amplitude just too small to trigger the hardware counter properly at that frequency? I don't know how steep the low-pass filter is on the input, but at some point the signal will be too small to count even though it's visible on the screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 03, 2016, 06:57:52 am
Oh, I see. Is the amplitude just too small to trigger the hardware counter properly at that frequency?

As xrunner stated in his post that the hardware counter already stops working at 103 MHz, it can't be due to the amplitude drop. There must be some other, timing-related limitation in the counter's implementation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 03, 2016, 08:40:05 am
You mentioned the 3dB point, so is this artificially induced on non-hacked scopes?

Yes.

The hack just turns off the artificial inducement.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Athanasis on June 03, 2016, 09:11:34 am
You mentioned the 3dB point, so is this artificially induced on non-hacked scopes?

Yes.

The hack just turns off the artificial inducement.

Guys I haven't hacked mine. Do you lose features by hacking it?

(http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag131/athanaz/RigolOpening/S1370025_zpsuujxwtim.jpg)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 03, 2016, 09:29:11 am
Do you lose features by hacking it?

Yes, the 50MHz bandwidth limiter is disabled.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Athanasis on June 03, 2016, 10:16:00 am
Do you lose features by hacking it?

Yes, the 50MHz bandwidth limiter is disabled.

Ohh Shit..  :wtf: This is a serious loss. I will not upgrade.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on June 03, 2016, 10:22:22 am

Ohh Shit..  :wtf: This is a serious loss. I will not upgrade.

I think this is a misunderstanding.

In order to become a 50 MHz oscilloscope, the 1054Z has a 50 MHz bandwidth limiter. Conversely, the 1074Z has a bandwidth limit of 70 MHz.

But this does not affect the optional 20 MHz limit in the analog channels, which I think you understood ;)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Athanasis on June 03, 2016, 10:33:55 am
borjam, thanks for your response but I was joking back to Fungus joke. You are definitely my friend now. Hopefully Fungus will not joke with me again and become my friend too !!!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 03, 2016, 11:13:56 am
Do you lose features by hacking it?
Yes, the 50MHz bandwidth limiter is disabled.
Ohh Shit..  :wtf: This is a serious loss. I will not upgrade.
You also lose the length properties of the trigger menu and internal RAM.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Athanasis on June 03, 2016, 11:58:22 am
You also lose the length properties of the trigger menu and internal RAM.

Man I thought you were bullshitting. Tell me seriously. Why should I believe you?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on June 03, 2016, 12:06:37 pm
Oh, I see. Is the amplitude just too small to trigger the hardware counter properly at that frequency? I don't know how steep the low-pass filter is on the input, but at some point the signal will be too small to count even though it's visible on the screen.

You're possibly correct, but I do not know. I looked in the manual but I didn't find a specific specification for the hardware frequency counter

As xrunner stated in his post that the hardware counter already stops working at 103 MHz, it can't be due to the amplitude drop. There must be some other, timing-related limitation in the counter's implementation.

I may play around with it some more today. I'd like to know from somebody with an unhacked DS1054Z, what the frequency limit is on that hardware counter.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 03, 2016, 01:04:56 pm
You also lose the length properties of the trigger menu and internal RAM.
Man I thought you were bullshitting. Tell me seriously. Why should I believe you?

It's true! Both those items get bigger after the hack, ask anyone...  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 03, 2016, 01:05:10 pm
It's easy enough to remove the "hack" and restore the original 1054z configuration, so you can test your own scope in both "hacked" and "virgin" mode.

Send the SCPI commands to the scope using your favorite method (I like telnet over LAN):

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" to go back to virgin DS1054Z (without the quotes)

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" to enter a key, where XXX is your 28 character key (without hyphens or quotes...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 03, 2016, 01:08:52 pm
I may play around with it some more today. I'd like to know from somebody with an unhacked DS1054Z, what the frequency limit is on that hardware counter.

Nobody's ever tested this as far as I know. Is there a difference before/after?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Athanasis on June 03, 2016, 02:42:52 pm
It's easy enough to remove the "hack" and restore the original 1054z configuration, so you can test your own scope in both "hacked" and "virgin" mode.

Send the SCPI commands to the scope using your favorite method (I like telnet over LAN):

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" to go back to virgin DS1054Z (without the quotes)

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" to enter a key, where XXX is your 28 character key (without hyphens or quotes...)

thank you alsetalokin
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on June 03, 2016, 03:32:12 pm
It's easy enough to remove the "hack" and restore the original 1054z configuration, so you can test your own scope
Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" to go back to virgin DS1054Z (without the quotes)
Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" to enter a key, where XXX is your 28
I have file/ email with all the different option keys commands for my scope, I just cut and paste when switching options to test
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: icamaster on June 05, 2016, 10:47:52 am
I just bought myself a DS1054z and it will arrive in a few days.
Expect from the 100MHz hack, what do you reccomend to do? Should I update it to the latest firmware, or leave it as it is?

Thank you
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 05, 2016, 10:41:49 pm
Since you just bought it, it may already have the latest firmware.

If it doesn't have the latest version, first use it and see if it does everything you need without issues. If it works well for your needs, leave it as is. If it doesn't, check if the update is supposed to fix your issue before installing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on June 06, 2016, 12:10:19 am
If it doesn't already have the latest version, 04.02.SP2, I would stay a version behind unless you really need the new changes.  The latest firmware is very SLOW to respond to the controls.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Athanasis on June 06, 2016, 06:51:11 am
If it doesn't already have the latest version, 04.02.SP2, I would stay a version behind unless you really need the new changes.  The latest firmware is very SLOW to respond to the controls.

I haven't tried it to have a clue but what I know is that SP2 contains serious FFT upgrades that without it the FFT is not deep enough to be useful.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 06, 2016, 06:57:29 am
The ability to do FFT from memory (instead of just the on-screen trace) is also available in SP1. I don't recall how long ago Rigol added the feature, but my scope is at SP1 and it's there.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Athanasis on June 06, 2016, 08:14:00 am
The ability to do FFT from memory (instead of just the on-screen trace) is also available in SP1. I don't recall how long ago Rigol added the feature, but my scope is at SP1 and it's there.

"With the latest firmware (00.04.03 SP2) for the Rigol MSO/DS1000Z Series Oscilloscopes the  FFT functionality has been improved.

The FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) now can be calculated not only from the screen points but also on 16k points from the acquisition memory. This new enhancement enables the customer to perform FFT analyis in the frequency domain with increased frequency resolution."


Source:
http://www.arbenelux.com/en/improved-fft-on-rigol-msods1000-series/ (http://www.arbenelux.com/en/improved-fft-on-rigol-msods1000-series/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2016, 09:34:24 am
The FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) now can be calculated not only from the screen points but also on 16k points from the acquisition memory. This new enhancement enables the customer to perform FFT analyis in the frequency domain with increased frequency resolution."[/i]

Source:
http://www.arbenelux.com/en/improved-fft-on-rigol-msods1000-series/ (http://www.arbenelux.com/en/improved-fft-on-rigol-msods1000-series/)

Get it from a source, or ... get it directly from the horse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD-3ni7tYM4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD-3ni7tYM4)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 06, 2016, 09:52:10 am
If it doesn't already have the latest version, 04.02.SP2, I would stay a version behind unless you really need the new changes.  The latest firmware is very SLOW to respond to the controls.

I haven't tried it to have a clue but what I know is that SP2 contains serious FFT upgrades that without it the FFT is not deep enough to be useful.

I would support MarkF's recommendation here. Yes, the FFT is improved in SP2 (although it is still not great). But how often will you use FFT -- will you use it at all?? In contrast, the more sluggish user interface of the latest software will probably annoy you every time you use the scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2016, 10:16:57 am
I would support MarkF's recommendation here. Yes, the FFT is improved in SP2 (although it is still not great).

Yep, it's still not going to blow anybody away. And ... they made a spelling mistake in one of the menus.

The previous revision of the firmware is the sweet spot so far.

(and the next one is overdue... come on Rigol, where is it?)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 06, 2016, 05:41:18 pm
The FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) now can be calculated not only from the screen points but also on 16k points from the acquisition memory. This new enhancement enables the customer to perform FFT analyis in the frequency domain with increased frequency resolution."[/i]

Source:
http://www.arbenelux.com/en/improved-fft-on-rigol-msods1000-series/ (http://www.arbenelux.com/en/improved-fft-on-rigol-msods1000-series/)

Get it from a source, or ... get it directly from the horse:


Well, I looked at my source (i.e., my SP1 scope) before I posted and it has the option to do FFT from memory or trace. So, what's new in SP2? More points from memory than SP1?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2016, 06:06:28 pm
Well, I looked at my source (i.e., my SP1 scope) before I posted and it has the option to do FFT from memory or trace. So, what's new in SP2? More points from memory than SP1?

A full list of changes is here (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0657/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 06, 2016, 06:28:58 pm
Thanks. I didn't see anything about FFT for the latest firmware, Version 00.04.03.02.03 (Date 2015-10-20).

The closest thing I saw in the history was in Version 00.04.03.01.05 (Date 2015-06-16). The description sounds like an FFT display error:

Quote
15. Save the waveform when turned on FFT function and use the
momery data to operate and turn on split display,then load the waveform of
saved, but the display of waveform is error.

But the entry type is "M", which is an improvement:

Quote
M - Modifications. Changes to improve performance on
existing features

 :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gbeauw on June 09, 2016, 11:12:07 pm
Just received my Rigol DS1054z and tried the upgrade procedure using the gotroot website/generator as shown in the videos.  Invalid key!  :-\  I'm seeing some posts/videos that says that gotroot site is bogus and we should use the 3owl site.  However, that site is no longer online.  My 1054Z shows:

Software Version: 00.04.03.SP2
Board Version: 0.1.1

I double and triple checked the Serial Number entered as well as the key that was generated and entered.

Is there some other step I need to take or is the Software not compatible with the upgrade?
 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 09, 2016, 11:19:34 pm
gotroot is not bogus, at least not when the rest of us used it. Make sure you don't use any hyphens, but do use the DSER option code, not DSFR.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gbeauw on June 09, 2016, 11:34:44 pm
Bitseeker,

With your confirmation that the site is good, I went back and started from scratch to generate code.  Well, I'll be dipped in lukewarm gook but it seems that my old eyes misread "S" as "5" on the computer screen.   :palm:  (Apparently +2.75 readers are still not strong enough.)

Entered code with the correction and Voila! DS1104Z!!!  :-+

Thanks, Bitseeker. 

One last question, (OK, maybe not my LAST question on the topic) :

All of the Options in the "Installed" page still show like 35 hours remaining.  Is this normal?  If this is already covered somewhere else, feel free to tell me to RTFM. I won't be offended.

NOTE: I used the "DSEA" option.  I don't see a DSER option.  Just:

I assume that you meant DSEA and you just made a typo. (Or is there a hidden DSER option?)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gbeauw on June 09, 2016, 11:59:31 pm
Disregard.  DSER is the right one.  It's just hidden.  Found another thread with the details on this.  Now it all looks good.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 10, 2016, 12:53:57 am
Very good. Enjoy!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on June 10, 2016, 02:33:51 am
I posted the bit codes for the DS1000Z earlier in this post for those interested in the details.   Go Here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg752721/#msg752721)

The MS1000Z and DS1000z Plus series are a little different.  I have the orginal DS1074Z and haven't been following the new versions.  Also, I believe the MS1000Z series needs to be opened and a memory dump from the JTAG header to be able to generate unlock keys.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ArisTos on June 10, 2016, 05:34:09 pm
I got it too. No problem with Riglol.
Just have to learn from scratch how to use DSO again. It was long time ago since I have used analog one.

Very capable piece of equipment. Really there is nothing better in this price range.

EDIT:

Just cannot get telnet working. Any advice? Win10

Code: [Select]
C:\Windows\system32>telnet 162.168.0.78 5555
Connecting To 162.168.0.78...Could not open connection to the host, on port 5555: Connect failed
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: FlyIt! on June 10, 2016, 09:15:50 pm
Hi,

I have a DS1054z which I purchased a bit more than a year ago, and I’ve been quite happy with it (really great value for the money).  After I received it, I did one firmware update (to 00.04.02.SP4) to help with the Jitter Problem.

Been working essentially fine, since then.  Now I see that I missed the “04.03.SP1” and “04.03.SP2” updates in the intervening time.  Some Forum members seem to recommend staying one-Rev-back from “04.03.SP2” (to avoid slower performance & ‘Pluses’, etc.).  The improved FFT stuff is not relevant, in my use of the 'scope.

However, I cannot get/find that zip or GEL file from the Rigol site… they only offer the ‘most recent’ firmware.  Does anyone know where I can d/l the “00.04.03.SP1” update file?

Thanks for any guidance! 

——————————

Details (if helpful):
 My hardware “Board Version” is 0.1.1
 The Firmware I have installed shows onscreen as “00.04.02.SP4”
 The file I have on my computer (that I think I used for the f/w update) has a filename (when unpacked) of “DS1000Z-04_02_04_07.7z”.  Weird… wrong file?
 The version that seems to be recommended is firmware update 00.04.03.01.05, which is identified in the System Information screen as “00.04.03.SP1”.  Yes?  No?

The Param text file showed:
Board Ver: 0.1.1
Firmware Ver: 0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver: 0.0.1.2
CPLD Ver: 1.1
SoftWare Ver: 00.04.02.SP4

(BTW: Yes, I've spent several hours looking back through this thread, going back to late last year).


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 11, 2016, 01:00:46 am
I got it too. No problem with Riglol.
Just have to learn from scratch how to use DSO again. It was long time ago since I have used analog one.

Very capable piece of equipment. Really there is nothing better in this price range.

EDIT:

Just cannot get telnet working. Any advice? Win10

Code: [Select]
C:\Windows\system32>telnet 162.168.0.78 5555
Connecting To 162.168.0.78...Could not open connection to the host, on port 5555: Connect failed
This sounds to me like you either don't have the IP address configured properly in the scope, or perhaps you are mistyping the address. Typically the address would be something like:

192.168.0.78 5555

That is, where you have "162" typically one would have "192" from most DHCP routers.

Can you show a screenshot of your LAN setting page, as below?


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 11, 2016, 01:15:18 am
Hi,

I have a DS1054z which I purchased a bit more than a year ago, and I’ve been quite happy with it (really great value for the money).  After I received it, I did one firmware update (to 00.04.02.SP4) to help with the Jitter Problem.

Been working essentially fine, since then.  Now I see that I missed the “04.03.SP1” and “04.03.SP2” updates in the intervening time.  Some Forum members seem to recommend staying one-Rev-back from “04.03.SP2” (to avoid slower performance & ‘Pluses’, etc.).  The improved FFT stuff is not relevant, in my use of the 'scope.

However, I cannot get/find that zip or GEL file from the Rigol site… they only offer the ‘most recent’ firmware.  Does anyone know where I can d/l the “00.04.03.SP1” update file?

Thanks for any guidance! 

——————————

Details (if helpful):
 My hardware “Board Version” is 0.1.1
 The Firmware I have installed shows onscreen as “00.04.02.SP4”
 The file I have on my computer (that I think I used for the f/w update) has a filename (when unpacked) of “DS1000Z-04_02_04_07.7z”.  Weird… wrong file?
 The version that seems to be recommended is firmware update 00.04.03.01.05, which is identified in the System Information screen as “00.04.03.SP1”.  Yes?  No?

The Param text file showed:
Board Ver: 0.1.1
Firmware Ver: 0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver: 0.0.1.2
CPLD Ver: 1.1
SoftWare Ver: 00.04.02.SP4

(BTW: Yes, I've spent several hours looking back through this thread, going back to late last year).

I have the file you are looking for, as well as some other "update" versions, in my archives. However I am hesitant to upload it here in case you or someone else bricks their scope using it. I don't want to be held responsible for any errors or mistakes or unfortunate events when using my copy of the file.

Your best bet would be to contact Rigol Customer Service via email and ask them specifically for the file you want.





Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nrxnrx on June 11, 2016, 06:21:23 am
Here you go: https://hamsterpower.org/f/rigolfw/DS1000Z-00.04.03.01.05.zip

I posted this here before and it's been downloaded 216 times. Nobody complained so far.
In case it does brick your scope, consider uninstalling the extra options before updating - so Rigol won't send you the repair bill.

I haven't tried asking them for a previous fw version. I wonder if that would work.
Has anyone? It's not like asking for a service manual! :)

--
Mihai

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on June 11, 2016, 07:30:53 am
However, I cannot get/find that zip or GEL file from the Rigol site… they only offer the ‘most recent’ firmware.  Does anyone know where I can d/l the “00.04.03.SP1” update file?

Here it is:

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ArisTos on June 11, 2016, 08:47:45 pm
I got it too. No problem with Riglol.
Just have to learn from scratch how to use DSO again. It was long time ago since I have used analog one.

Very capable piece of equipment. Really there is nothing better in this price range.

EDIT:

Just cannot get telnet working. Any advice? Win10

Code: [Select]
C:\Windows\system32>telnet 162.168.0.78 5555
Connecting To 162.168.0.78...Could not open connection to the host, on port 5555: Connect failed
This sounds to me like you either don't have the IP address configured properly in the scope, or perhaps you are mistyping the address. Typically the address would be something like:

192.168.0.78 5555

That is, where you have "162" typically one would have "192" from most DHCP routers.

Can you show a screenshot of your LAN setting page, as below?

You are right Sir. But it didn't work with right IP address neither. Funny store it just worked straight when I have tried to log in from my Raspberry Pi.
Funny things - Windows...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on June 12, 2016, 05:54:48 am
I got it too. No problem with Riglol.
Just have to learn from scratch how to use DSO again. It was long time ago since I have used analog one.

Very capable piece of equipment. Really there is nothing better in this price range.

EDIT:

Just cannot get telnet working. Any advice? Win10

Code: [Select]
C:\Windows\system32>telnet 162.168.0.78 5555
Connecting To 162.168.0.78...Could not open connection to the host, on port 5555: Connect failed
This sounds to me like you either don't have the IP address configured properly in the scope, or perhaps you are mistyping the address. Typically the address would be something like:

192.168.0.78 5555

That is, where you have "162" typically one would have "192" from most DHCP routers.

Can you show a screenshot of your LAN setting page, as below?

You are right Sir. But it didn't work with right IP address neither. Funny store it just worked straight when I have tried to log in from my Raspberry Pi.
Funny things - Windows...

I only have XP and Win7.  Both Telnet clients work the same.  I expect Win10 will also.
PROCEDURE:
  - From CMD prompt, type Telnet
  - Type: o 192.168.0 78 555 <ENTER>
  - Connecting To 162.168.0.78...  (Mine hangs at this point)
  - Type: CTRL+]  (To enter ESC and get Telnet prompt)
  - Type: sen *idn? <ENTER>
  - Type: <ENTER>  (Shows response)
  - Type: CTRL+]  (To send another command)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 12, 2016, 06:51:53 am
However, I cannot get/find that zip or GEL file from the Rigol site… they only offer the ‘most recent’ firmware.  Does anyone know where I can d/l the “00.04.03.SP1” update file?

Here it is:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

No, I believe that's not what FlyIt was looking for. He wanted the 4.3.SP1 firmware, i.e. the one that came out before the most recent (and somewhat sluggish) SP2. What you linked to is the current SP2 firmware, isn't it?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on June 12, 2016, 07:24:13 am
However, I cannot get/find that zip or GEL file from the Rigol site… they only offer the ‘most recent’ firmware.  Does anyone know where I can d/l the “00.04.03.SP1” update file?

Here it is:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

No, I believe that's not what FlyIt was looking for. He wanted the 4.3.SP1 firmware, i.e. the one that came out before the most recent (and somewhat sluggish) SP2. What you linked to is the current SP2 firmware, isn't it?

Yes, you are right. Unfortunately, after an update they replace the firmware but not the url.
So, the url's are the same for the old and the new firmware which means you can't download the old firmware anymore.
At least not from Rigol.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Teneyes on June 12, 2016, 08:12:36 am
He wanted the 4.3.SP1 firmware, i.e. the one that came out before the most recent
Check:
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/)
For old Firmware
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on June 12, 2016, 05:38:50 pm
Checksums from an archive of firmware updates might be useful to somebody:

As delivered/unpacked from the ZIP files provided by beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com, and cross-checked against the RAR file versions from int.rigol.com:

Code: [Select]
~/Downloads/rigol$ find . -name "*.GEL" | xargs md5sum

45520cfa7a38c37b6a2399877fee88d1  ./DS1000Z(ARM)Update_00.04.02.04.07/DS1000ZUpdate.GEL
141b0f9588f58da44409e3ad07d29d73  ./DS1000ZUpdate_00.04.03.00.01/DS1000ZUpdate.GEL
37de059757e7b54b1091cb1765dd33ed  ./DS1000Z(ARM)Update_00.04.03.01.05/DS1000ZUpdate.GEL
7b6d1316f6e84622ce4520be8796a3f2  ./DS1000Z(ARM)Update_00.04.03.02.03/DS1000ZUpdate.GEL
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 12, 2016, 09:22:44 pm
FlyIt received SP1 from several members here. Thanks to all who helped out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: FlyIt! on June 13, 2016, 04:24:14 pm
Several people sent me the SP1 update, which I was then able to compare against one another (and subsequently the checksums were posted).

Thanks everyone!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Iwanushka on June 13, 2016, 04:32:32 pm
Several people sent me the SP1 update, which I was then able to compare against one another (and subsequently the checksums were posted).

Thanks everyone!

Hi,

Can you upload SP1 fw somewhere for me too?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: FlyIt! on June 13, 2016, 05:23:03 pm
Quote from: Iwanushka
Can you upload SP1 fw somewhere for me too?

Per Teneyes:
Quote from: Teneyes
Check:
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/)
For old Firmware.

The file you want is "DS1000Z-04_03_01_05.7z"
... and the MD5 checksum (should you want to check it) is "37de059757e7b54b1091cb1765dd33ed"

Cheers!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Iwanushka on June 13, 2016, 05:23:51 pm
Quote from: Iwanushka
Can you upload SP1 fw somewhere for me too?

Per Teneyes:
Quote from: Teneyes
Check:
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/)
For old Firmware.

The file you want is "DS1000Z-04_03_01_05.7z"
... and the MD5 checksum (should you want to check it) is "37de059757e7b54b1091cb1765dd33ed"

Cheers!

Thank You!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Hagrid on June 18, 2016, 01:01:22 pm
Hello, this thread might be a bit old, but I am considering to buy a ds1054z and guess this is the right place to ask a question.
There has been a lot of posts about bugs and updates and different firmwares and boot verions.
I am quite lost now because I don't know if I associate the right bugs with the right firmwares and boot versions.

First of all I'd like to ask if Rigol ships the ds1054z with the latest firmware and boot version to their distributors.
I guess this would make sense in some way. So I guess the scopes now bought have the boot version 0.1.3 and
the firmware 00.04.03.02.03 (04.03.SP2 shown on the scope). Those are the latest right?
What bugs are to be expected in this case?

I know about the math bug (horizontal offset) which will only occur in the 500ns/div setting right?
Does the scope freezes when operated? I have read about different types of freezing. There are some bugs where
the whole scope freezes or just measurements. What kinds of bugs are here to expect?

Is there a summary of those bugs relatet to the firmware and boot version?
This would help me out so much.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on June 18, 2016, 01:13:53 pm
First of all I'd like to ask if Rigol ships the ds1054z with the latest firmware and boot version to their distributors.
I guess this would make sense in some way. So I guess the scopes now bought have the boot version 0.1.3 and
the firmware 00.04.03.02.03 (04.03.SP2 shown on the scope). Those are the latest right?
What bugs are to be expected in this case?
Broken Vrms measurement. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-issue/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-issue/)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=206161;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 18, 2016, 02:20:51 pm
Quote
So I guess the scopes now bought have the boot version 0.1.3 and
the firmware 00.04.03.02.03 (04.03.SP2 shown on the scope). Those are the latest right?
I think there is a boot version 0.1.4, but the latest firmware is indeed 00.04.03.02.03 as far as I know.
Quote
What bugs are to be expected in this case?
Slow response to controls, especially vertical position, along with some others. But to be fair the SP2 firmware does fix some previously annoying bugs. It's too bad that it doesn't fix all the old bugs, and it introduces several new ones. The failure of all measurements after a random time when Math is in use is particularly annoying to me.

5 bugs at once:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ivanjh on June 20, 2016, 04:05:46 am
First of all I'd like to ask if Rigol ships the ds1054z with the latest firmware and boot version to their distributors.
I guess this would make sense in some way. So I guess the scopes now bought have the boot version 0.1.3 an
the firmware 00.04.03.02.03 (04.03.SP2 shown on the scope). Those are the latest right?
I just saw a DS1054Z from an Australian distributor (today), and it's:
Software: 00.04.03.02.03
Board: 0.1.4
Boot: 0.0.1.4
Firmware: 0.2.3.11
CPLD: 1.1
Build Date: Sep 11 2015
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Hagrid on June 20, 2016, 04:23:16 pm
I asked a distributor in Germany who said that the scope comes with
boot version: 0.0.1.4
firmware: 00.04.03

So is the Firmware the SP1 version? Does anybody know the bugy which still occur on 0.0.1.4 AND (00.04.03 OR 00.04.03.02.03)?
They send me a link to get the latest firmware, but I have read that the old was actually a better trade off. Is tis true?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on June 20, 2016, 05:14:22 pm
Software: 00.04.03.02.03
Board: 0.1.4
Boot: 0.0.1.4
Firmware: 0.2.3.11
CPLD: 1.1
Build Date: Sep 11 2015
How do you show all the data on the system info menu? i can't find how
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 20, 2016, 05:22:03 pm
I asked a distributor in Germany who said that the scope comes with
boot version: 0.0.1.4
firmware: 00.04.03

So is the Firmware the SP1 version?

That firmware version number is inconclusive. The distributor needs to give you the full version number.

00.04.03.01.05 = SP1
00.04.03.02.03 = SP2

The part that was left out differentiates between SP1 and SP2.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 20, 2016, 05:26:43 pm
How do you show all the data on the system info menu? i can't find how

It's a secret. ;D Reveal secret info (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg936540/#msg936540)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on June 20, 2016, 07:14:09 pm
5 bugs at once:

These are the only known bugs left in the current FW?

1. Measurement freeze - I have not seen this. Is there a robust way to facilitate the issue or some precondition?
2. Math offset - check, with 500 ns period and trace averaging enabled; otherwise, OK.
3. RMS measurement incorrect - check, with multiple channels on. I think Ch1 is always correct, and all other channels are correct individually. Someone mentioned something like SW cross-talk as possible cause?
4. Pluses spelling - is this feature entirely new in the latest FW version? That's the way it seems from the release notes.
5. Pulses miscounted - check, I forget if this is related to 500 ns rate or if there are any preconditions. Again, a new feature?

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 21, 2016, 01:46:31 pm
5 bugs at once:

These are the only known bugs left in the current FW?

1. Measurement freeze - I have not seen this. Is there a robust way to facilitate the issue or some precondition?
2. Math offset - check, with 500 ns period and trace averaging enabled; otherwise, OK.
3. RMS measurement incorrect - check, with multiple channels on. I think Ch1 is always correct, and all other channels are correct individually. Someone mentioned something like SW cross-talk as possible cause?
4. Pluses spelling - is this feature entirely new in the latest FW version? That's the way it seems from the release notes.
5. Pulses miscounted - check, I forget if this is related to 500 ns rate or if there are any preconditions. Again, a new feature?

Thanks!
No, these aren't the only bugs left.

It's not easy to display the slow control response in a still image, but many people who have loaded the SP2 firmware have noticed this.

It also can take a _long_ time to save a screen image to a USB stick, especially if the scope is not Stopped before saving. The more channels and functions in use, the longer it can take to save the image (but this does not seem to be the case when using DSRemote over a LAN connection to save a screenshot.)

Something that really is annoying to me is that the FFT function display resets the Center Frequency, Hz/Div,  etc. when switching Mode from Memory to Trace (or the other way around.) The new firmware added the Memory option to the FFT which is nice, but they forgot to have it keep its display settings when switching back and forth between Memory and Trace.

Sometimes the Hardware Frequency Counter delivers strange results like double or half actual frequency, depending on Trigger Level setting, for certain waveforms where it really shouldn't have any trouble.

I don't know if CH1 RMS is "always correct" when other channels without inputs are showing large RMS values.  I need to research this bug further.
 
To reproduce the Measurements failing, use two channels and activate a Math trace, like A+B etc. Then turn on some measurements. To keep track of how many updates happen before they stop working, select the Statistics ON and in Stat. Sel. choose "Difference" which will show the update count. I have seen the measurements stop in just a few updates, or sometimes it takes thousands of updates; as far as I can tell the time is completely random.  Yes, I reported this bug to Rigol USA back when I first encountered it and they were immediately able to reproduce it on their test scopes, so they know it's really a bug, not just in my unit. Once the displayed Measurements stop updating, then _all_ H or V measurements no longer work and the only way to get them working again is to power-cycle the instrument.  The "workaround" which is hardly satisfactory is to keep the Math trace set up but turned OFF except for brief periods when you want to look at it. Still, this doesn't always work and if you're unlucky the Measurements will freeze during the time you have the Math trace turned On.

Yes, the "Pluses" spelling error and indeed the Pulse and Edge counters came along with the latest firmware. No, the miscounting doesn't seem to be related to the 500 ns horizontal rate and doesn't always happen. 

There may be more bugs, or "features", that I've not listed or encountered yet.

My scope has Boot Version 0.0.1.3 and I see that current scopes are being shipped with a Boot Version 0.0.1.4. I don't know whether this change in Boot Version affects any of these bugs, or if the Boot Version actually does anything besides starting up the instrument. Somehow I think that it does have some additional effects but I can't prove it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on June 21, 2016, 02:55:22 pm
i'll add one to the mix: internal memory or any external usb drive, the last screenshot is not saved.
I press print once: it stops and save the screenshot, when i check there is no screenshot.
I try to save two screenshots in a row: only the first is saved
and so on.
Though it might only be me because i haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else

(i don't know which version of the board/boot etc i've got, hence why i've asked but i suppose it's the latest since i ordered mine in march and the supplier just went out of stock and i had to wait a couple of weeks. i'll check in the weekend when i get back home )
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on June 21, 2016, 02:59:07 pm
5 bugs at once:

These are the only known bugs left in the current FW?

1. Measurement freeze - I have not seen this. Is there a robust way to facilitate the issue or some precondition?
2. Math offset - check, with 500 ns period and trace averaging enabled; otherwise, OK.
3. RMS measurement incorrect - check, with multiple channels on. I think Ch1 is always correct, and all other channels are correct individually. Someone mentioned something like SW cross-talk as possible cause?
4. Pluses spelling - is this feature entirely new in the latest FW version? That's the way it seems from the release notes.
5. Pulses miscounted - check, I forget if this is related to 500 ns rate or if there are any preconditions. Again, a new feature?

Thanks!
No, these aren't the only bugs left.

It's not easy to display the slow control response in a still image, but many people who have loaded the SP2 firmware have noticed this.

It also can take a _long_ time to save a screen image to a USB stick, especially if the scope is not Stopped before saving. The more channels and functions in use, the longer it can take to save the image (but this does not seem to be the case when using DSRemote over a LAN connection to save a screenshot.)

Something that really is annoying to me is that the FFT function display resets the Center Frequency, Hz/Div,  etc. when switching Mode from Memory to Trace (or the other way around.) The new firmware added the Memory option to the FFT which is nice, but they forgot to have it keep its display settings when switching back and forth between Memory and Trace.

Sometimes the Hardware Frequency Counter delivers strange results like double or half actual frequency, depending on Trigger Level setting, for certain waveforms where it really shouldn't have any trouble.

I don't know if CH1 RMS is "always correct" when other channels without inputs are showing large RMS values.  I need to research this bug further.
 
To reproduce the Measurements failing, use two channels and activate a Math trace, like A+B etc. Then turn on some measurements. To keep track of how many updates happen before they stop working, select the Statistics ON and in Stat. Sel. choose "Difference" which will show the update count. I have seen the measurements stop in just a few updates, or sometimes it takes thousands of updates; as far as I can tell the time is completely random.  Yes, I reported this bug to Rigol USA back when I first encountered it and they were immediately able to reproduce it on their test scopes, so they know it's really a bug, not just in my unit. Once the displayed Measurements stop updating, then _all_ H or V measurements no longer work and the only way to get them working again is to power-cycle the instrument.  The "workaround" which is hardly satisfactory is to keep the Math trace set up but turned OFF except for brief periods when you want to look at it. Still, this doesn't always work and if you're unlucky the Measurements will freeze during the time you have the Math trace turned On.

Yes, the "Pluses" spelling error and indeed the Pulse and Edge counters came along with the latest firmware. No, the miscounting doesn't seem to be related to the 500 ns horizontal rate and doesn't always happen. 

There may be more bugs, or "features", that I've not listed or encountered yet.

My scope has Boot Version 0.0.1.3 and I see that current scopes are being shipped with a Boot Version 0.0.1.4. I don't know whether this change in Boot Version affects any of these bugs, or if the Boot Version actually does anything besides starting up the instrument. Somehow I think that it does have some additional effects but I can't prove it.

What I don't understand is why you still have the scope.  It's only $400, you could offload it for $300 and move on to something much better.  Why keep fighting the same Math problems?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 21, 2016, 03:20:33 pm
What I don't understand is why you still have the scope.  It's only $400, you could offload it for $300 and move on to something much better.  Why keep fighting the same Math problems?

Exaggerating the DS1054Z problems in EEVBLOG forums is his hobby.

Selling the scope would leave him with nothing to do, where's the fun in that?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on June 21, 2016, 03:21:47 pm
Isn't Rigol America following the Rigol threads on this forum?

Why don't they step in and get their act together?

It should be very straightforward to fix the remaining bugs with the help of Rigol America.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 21, 2016, 03:23:22 pm
i'll add one to the mix: internal memory or any external usb drive, the last screenshot is not saved.
I press print once: it stops and save the screenshot, when i check there is no screenshot.

Never seen that (and it's something I'd notice).

Though it might only be me

That would make no sense either. What sort of 'external USB drive' are you using?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 21, 2016, 03:28:29 pm
There are no exaggerations in my bug reports. And you really should complain to whomever it is who is making you read them, instead of trolling me with your _inaccurate statements_ about the scope itself and your outright misrepresentations of what I do.

Re the Measurements Failures: Perhaps you need to have three channels turned on, in addition to a Math trace. Here's an example: Measurements frozen after 2,629 updates, then the input signal's frequency is changed, to show that the Measurements are indeed frozen. Note that the Hardware Frequency Counter is correct but the Measurements displayed have failed to update to the new input frequency. You can confirm this yourself, Fungus ... that is... if you are indeed able to read a trace using just the graticule markings and timebase settings.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 21, 2016, 03:31:10 pm
Isn't Rigol America following the Rigol threads on this forum?

Why don't they step in and get their act together?

It should be very straightforward to fix the remaining bugs with the help of Rigol America.

Yes, it's weird that they don't take more interest.

There have definitely been cases on EEVBLOG where they actually listened and fixed things.

There was even a case where Rigol USA swapped somebody's scope for a new one because they couldn't reproduce a bug on any of theirs.

Lately though? Silence. And no firmware updates for a very long time. What's going on? :-//

If I were a manufacturer I'd see EEVBLOG as a valuable resource for a) Product testing/feedback, and b) A place where you can earn a lot of brownie points by interacting and responding to problems.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 21, 2016, 03:34:33 pm
i'll add one to the mix: internal memory or any external usb drive, the last screenshot is not saved.
I press print once: it stops and save the screenshot, when i check there is no screenshot.

Never seen that (and it's something I'd notice).

 I doubt that you would. I've seen things like it too. For example, this last shot I posted. It was assigned #10, but it should have been assigned #12 since the previously saved shot was #11. SO I saved it again, and again it was assigned... #10. So I have two files with seemingly identical filenames now, both with the same content.

Quote
Though it might only be me

That would make no sense either. What sort of 'external USB drive' are you using?

Blame the user? ROFL.....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 21, 2016, 03:35:39 pm
Isn't Rigol America following the Rigol threads on this forum?

Why don't they step in and get their act together?

It should be very straightforward to fix the remaining bugs with the help of Rigol America.

Yes, it's weird that they don't take more interest.

There have definitely been cases on EEVBLOG where they actually listened and fixed things.

There was even a case where Rigol USA swapped somebody's scope for a new one because they couldn't reproduce a bug on any of theirs.

And would you care to guess who that "somebody" was? And just what was that particular bug?

Quote

Lately though? Silence. And no firmware updates for a very long time. What's going on? :-//

If I were a manufacturer I'd see EEVBLOG as a valuable resource for a) Product testing/feedback, and b) A place where you can earn a lot of brownie points by interacting and responding to problems.

Rigol bashing now, are you?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on June 21, 2016, 03:39:14 pm
It was you? :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 21, 2016, 03:40:34 pm
There are no exaggerations in my bug reports.

Is 'takes a long time to save a screenshot' a bug?

Maybe it could be made faster, or maybe the CPU with the USB interface simply has no time left over when all the channels are on. You yourself say:

Quote
...especially if the scope is not Stopped before saving. The more channels and functions in use, the longer it can take to save the image.

Is it a bug if it works?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on June 21, 2016, 05:21:30 pm
Isn't Rigol America following the Rigol threads on this forum?

Why don't they step in and get their act together?

It should be very straightforward to fix the remaining bugs with the help of Rigol America.

Why should they? Even with those bugs, it's still a bestseller.
They will not sell more after fixing some bugs, so why do the effort?
Once there's some real competition in this price class, they will start to fix some bugs.
Still haven't seen another scope that can beat the price/performance of the DS1054Z.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 21, 2016, 05:35:02 pm
Unfortunately, that could very well be the reason fixes haven't come. Competition is a good thing. Perhaps Instek will add more pressure in this segment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on June 21, 2016, 05:38:45 pm
I have boot version 1.4 and the latest otherwise. I'll try to duplicate the measurement freeze.

Things like slow response are hard to qualify. I guess I have the luxury of not experience the scope when it was fast  ;D. I have not found the controls overly burdensome (in being slow), other than how you need to push the twiddle knob to select an item (it always moves when I push it!). I may tire of it over time, however...

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on June 21, 2016, 05:41:42 pm
try adjusting the vertical position, move for example the calibrator from the center of the screen to the bottom!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 21, 2016, 06:06:37 pm
It should be very straightforward to fix the remaining bugs with the help of Rigol America.
Why should they? Even with those bugs, it's still a bestseller.
They will not sell more after fixing some bugs, so why do the effort?

Probably true.

Once there's some real competition in this price class, they will start to fix some bugs.

You just said sales don't depend on bugs.  :-//

Still haven't seen another scope that can beat the price/performance of the DS1054Z.
Yep. Nothing else is close when it comes to displaying wiggly lines on a screen.

Display of wiggly lines, good triggering, easy zoom/scroll ... that's all an oscilloscope needs to do to be worth owning and nobody can really fault the DS1054Z in that regard.

Bugs? They may sound scary in forums but does it really matter that the RMS voltage display is wrong under certain conditions? Most customers probably don't care so long as the basics are correct. After all, they just got a new $1000 'scope for $400. What's not to like? :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 21, 2016, 06:23:53 pm
Perhaps Instek will add more pressure in this segment.

They have a nice four channel 'scope for $400 but it's locked to 50MHz and no hack available. The 100 MHz version costs twice the price.

Yes, it has a better FFT but it also has no serial decoders. They're important too.

$400 extra to get rid of a couple of minor bugs? That's a tough sell.

(...and a decent firmware update from Rigol would destroy it).


PS: Dave wasn't massively impressed by it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on June 21, 2016, 06:42:02 pm
They have a nice four channel 'scope for $400 but it's locked to 50MHz and no hack available. The 100 MHz version costs twice the price.

Yes, it has a better FFT but it also has no serial decoders. They're important too.

$400 extra to get rid of a couple of minor bugs? That's a tough sell.
Hopefully you won't freak out. I'd pass as minor bug some of the advanced math being broken in it, but I wouldn't call broken RMS measurement being a minor bug. Also 50 MHz Instek have 5 ns rise time vs 7 ns in 50 MHz Rigol and 5ns in 70 MHz Rigol. As rise time is exactly the same as DS1074Z has, IMO it could be compared with that regarding to bandwidth. Analog performance of Rigol have downsides either, such as insufficient offset range in many circumstances. If you don't need serial decoding of IMO questionable quality, then Instek can offer many advantages without serious downsides. As example, advanced math is much more powerful in Instek and is not partially broken either. It can add automated measurments into expression:
Quote
Measurement Adds automatic measurements to the expression.
Not all automatic measurements are supported.
Measurement Pk-Pk, Max, Min, Amp, High,
Low, Mean, CycleMean, RMS,
CycleRMS, Area, CycleArea,
ROVShoot, FOVShoot, Freq,
Period, Rise, Fall, PosWidth,
NegWidth, Dutycycle, FRR, FRF,
FFR, FFF, LRR, LRF, LFR, LFF,
Phase
Nothing like that is possible even in more expensive DS2000A
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on June 21, 2016, 07:48:28 pm
Ya, your Instek is awesome. But we got a Rigol, read the topic.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on June 21, 2016, 08:01:16 pm
Ya, your Instek is awesome. But we got a Rigol, read the topic.
On the previous page was brought a point that DS1054Z has no competitors at all at this price, therefore all of the crap they do must be forgiven. Obviously it's not true, and hopefully Rigol will be brought back on the right track by punishing their wallet.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 21, 2016, 08:24:11 pm
Perhaps Instek will add more pressure in this segment.

They have a nice four channel 'scope for $400 but it's locked to 50MHz and no hack available. The 100 MHz version costs twice the price.

Yep, hence the "add more pressure" phrase. However, it seems that Instek tends not to price themselves too low.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 21, 2016, 08:30:13 pm
Hopefully you won't freak out. I'd pass as minor bug some of the advanced math being broken in it, but I wouldn't call broken RMS measurement being a minor bug.

YMMV.

insufficient offset range in many circumstances.

"Many"?

Is that an exaggeration...?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on June 21, 2016, 08:42:37 pm
Perhaps Instek will add more pressure in this segment.

They have a nice four channel 'scope for $400 but it's locked to 50MHz and no hack available. The 100 MHz version costs twice the price.

Yep, hence the "add more pressure" phrase. However, it seems that Instek tends not to price themselves too low.
Why should they price themselves much lower than Rigol while having better capabilities. GDS-1054B is already cheaper than DS1054Z and offers significantly more out of the box at a slightly lower price. You talk as if Rigol hacked options are included in the price already from the factory :palm:. None of those things people call as advantages come out of the box.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 21, 2016, 08:43:35 pm
Also 50 MHz Instek have 5 ns rise time vs 7 ns in 50 MHz Rigol and 5ns in 70 MHz Rigol. As rise time is exactly the same as DS1074Z has, IMO it could be compared with that regarding to bandwidth.

So? My $400 Rigol has a 3.5ns rise time (and it's actually better than that if you measure it).

You talk as if Rigol hacked options are included in the price already from the factory :palm:

We could do a survey if you want, but... I'll bet that nobody here bought their DS1054Z thinking they were getting a 50MHz 'scope with basic triggering, 12Mb RAM no serial decoders.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on June 21, 2016, 09:20:14 pm
We could do a survey if you want, but... I'll bet that nobody here bought a DS1054Z thinking they were getting a 50MHz 'scope with basic triggering, 12Mb RAM no serial decoders.
Actually it would be interesting to make a poll like:
*I actually use serial decoding and advanced triggers
*Measure signals with more than 50 MHz frequency
*Measure more than 50 MHz + use serial decoding
*I hacked my scope but would rather trade hacked frequency and decoding for absence of bugs
*have the scope but didn't hack it
Then it would be obvious if people buy it because because hackability is actually useful for them of just because it is there. Or more like self delusion and choosing this model and accepting the bugs because of the hackable features they actually don't need at all. While according to the real world use, they'd better goo for 50 MHz non hackable scope without tons of bugs which don't get fixed in the timely manner if will be fixed at all.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on June 21, 2016, 09:35:28 pm
Ya, your Instek is awesome. But we got a Rigol, read the topic.
On the previous page was brought a point that DS1054Z has no competitors at all at this price, therefore all of the crap they do must be forgiven. Obviously it's not true, and hopefully Rigol will be brought back on the right track by punishing their wallet.

Except that only two people on an obscure forum even care.  Everybody else is price driven and quite satisfied with the scope.  Sure, it would be nice if it were perfect but since it is software based, it never will be.

And, yes, you can get a scope that's twice as good for 3 times the money.  So what?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 21, 2016, 09:48:38 pm
And, yes, you can get a scope that's twice as good for 3 times the money.  So what?
And for only three times more money you can get one that's twice as good as that.

How do people sleep at night knowing there's a better 'scope than theirs out there? I really don't know.  :-//

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on June 21, 2016, 09:51:05 pm
Ya, your Instek is awesome. But we got a Rigol, read the topic.
On the previous page was brought a point that DS1054Z has no competitors at all at this price, therefore all of the crap they do must be forgiven. Obviously it's not true, and hopefully Rigol will be brought back on the right track by punishing their wallet.

Except that only two people on an obscure forum even care.  Everybody else is price driven and quite satisfied with the scope.  Sure, it would be nice if it were perfect but since it is software based, it never will be.

And, yes, you can get a scope that's twice as good for 3 times the money.  So what?
You can get better scope at a bit lower price from a more reputable manufacturer but without possibility of hacking options, so what? Is hacked Rigol twice as good at the same price?  Are there so much value in those hacked options?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on June 21, 2016, 09:52:53 pm
the endless debate :palm:

Quote
*I hacked my scope but would rather trade hacked frequency and decoding for absence of bugs
yep.

unfortunately GWi is out of the question for us europeans as their prices are nearly double than what tequipment asks (at least, from TME and farnell. i didn't find gwi on other distributors)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 21, 2016, 10:04:14 pm
You can get better scope at a bit lower price from a more reputable manufacturer but without possibility of hacking options, so what? Is hacked Rigol twice as good at the same price?  Are there so much value in those hacked options?

Yes!

Bandwidth is king, you know that. That's why the 100MHz version of the Instek costs twice as much money as the 50Mhz version.

PS: Dave's conclusion in that video is that the Rigol is less noisy, has higher spec. op-amps in the front end (38:40) and that "the construction's not nearly as good as the Rigol" (39:30). Twice the bandwidth and better construction?  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on June 21, 2016, 10:07:53 pm
the endless debate :palm:

94 pages on the forum.

94 ...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on June 21, 2016, 10:15:04 pm
many more. you are not counting the tens of pages of related (or unrelated) threads
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on June 21, 2016, 10:20:40 pm
the endless debate :palm:

Quote
*I hacked my scope but would rather trade hacked frequency and decoding for absence of bugs
yep.

unfortunately GWi is out of the question for us europeans as their prices are nearly double than what tequipment asks (at least, from TME and farnell. i didn't find gwi on other distributors)
At TME there is promotion tight now. Not on 1054B, but other 1000B and 2000E scopes are sold much cheaper, for example GDS-1074B and GDS-2072E are sold cheaper than 1054B. If you search much enough, probably someone sells discounted 1054B too. Also getting it from Tequipment and paying the import taxes is not so bad either.
Here is a poll:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054zds1000z-poll-are-hacked-options-actually-useful-for-you/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054zds1000z-poll-are-hacked-options-actually-useful-for-you/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on June 21, 2016, 10:29:11 pm
what is the leading competitor to the DS1054Z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on June 21, 2016, 10:32:40 pm
Ya, your Instek is awesome. But we got a Rigol, read the topic.
On the previous page was brought a point that DS1054Z has no competitors at all at this price, therefore all of the crap they do must be forgiven. Obviously it's not true, and hopefully Rigol will be brought back on the right track by punishing their wallet.

Except that only two people on an obscure forum even care.  Everybody else is price driven and quite satisfied with the scope.  Sure, it would be nice if it were perfect but since it is software based, it never will be.

And, yes, you can get a scope that's twice as good for 3 times the money.  So what?
You can get better scope at a bit lower price from a more reputable manufacturer but without possibility of hacking options, so what? Is hacked Rigol twice as good at the same price?  Are there so much value in those hacked options?

Of course the additional bandwidth and memory depth are worthwhile.  I'm not sold on the decoding but it's pretty cool that it's free!  So, if there is another scope at 50 MHz BW with no possibility of free upgrades and costs roughly the same, it's not going to win in the market.

Are you saying that Rigol isn't reputable?  Or that, somehow, brand X, as a company, is more reputable?  Seriously?  Rigol  is selling a lot of hardware if the membership around here is any gauge.  Obviously, I have no idea how many scopes any manufacturer sells but I doubt if Rigol is going to drive in a ditch any time soon.

Brand X at the same price, half the bandwidth, no decoding and <I don't know about memory depth>, of course the Rigol is going to win.  It isn't even a question.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on June 21, 2016, 10:35:41 pm

Here is a poll:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054zds1000z-poll-are-hacked-options-actually-useful-for-you/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054zds1000z-poll-are-hacked-options-actually-useful-for-you/)

That poll displays a rather interesting attitude!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on June 21, 2016, 10:44:17 pm
what is the leading competitor to the DS1054Z?

Instek, Siglent, Hantek etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 21, 2016, 10:45:33 pm
Of course the additional bandwidth and memory depth are worthwhile.  I'm not sold on the decoding but it's pretty cool that it's free!  So, if there is another scope at 50 MHz BW with no possibility of free upgrades and costs roughly the same, it's not going to win in the market.

To be fair, it has a much better FFT. If FFT is your thing then it might be worth it.

There might be a tiny market for people who need better FFT and people who can't bear having a single bug.

Plus: The Rigol bug list is really quite short. Rigol might release a new firmware tomorrow that totally destroys the "less bugs" argument. Don't forget they already improved the FFT once with a firmware upgrade, they could easily do it again.

Poor build quality and noisy front end? Not so easy to fix via a firmware upload.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on June 21, 2016, 11:08:29 pm

Here is a poll:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054zds1000z-poll-are-hacked-options-actually-useful-for-you/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054zds1000z-poll-are-hacked-options-actually-useful-for-you/)

That poll displays a rather interesting attitude!
Rigol Germany made me suffer a lot in the past. Like none of other any equipment manufacturer (any, including consumer), nobody even comes close. Psychological trauma, you know  :-DD.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on June 22, 2016, 03:51:40 pm
Rigol Germany made me suffer a lot in the past. Like none of other any equipment manufacturer (any, including consumer), nobody even comes close. Psychological trauma, you know  :-DD.
Aha! Now we've found the real heart of your issue with Rigol!  :o  :P  :-DD

Seriously though, the quality of support when things go wrong is rather important IME. And unfortunately, not everyone's experiences are good; particularly between support centers in different countries (even with tier 1 brands).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on June 22, 2016, 06:48:36 pm
particularly between support centers in different countries
Probably it would be better if there was no support at all, would save me some brain cells.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 23, 2016, 03:16:07 am
Rigol Germany made me suffer a lot in the past. Like none of other any equipment manufacturer (any, including consumer), nobody even comes close. Psychological trauma, you know  :-DD.

Well, that sucks. I've heard the quality of Rigol support does vary greatly by region. Hope you recover! :-BROKE
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on June 23, 2016, 02:04:55 pm
At $400 per scope, Customer Support isn't really necessary.  It isn't even worth the hassle to box it up and drive it over to the UPS Store.  Just chuck the thing and buy something else.

If you think having a scope is worth a buck a day, at the end of the year, you're just about even.  Everything beyond that is just gravy.

Even better, you would perhaps be chucking the Rigol and given the opportunity to try out the Instek.  Think how many people will applaud that opportunity!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on June 23, 2016, 02:32:09 pm
At $400 per scope, Customer Support isn't really necessary.  It isn't even worth the hassle to box it up and drive it over to the UPS Store.  Just chuck the thing and buy something else.
That wasn't $400 scope but $1000 (EU price) DM3068 multimeter, maybe 20% cheaper than Agilent 34401A at that time.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 23, 2016, 02:33:05 pm
At $400 per scope, Customer Support isn't really necessary.  It isn't even worth the hassle to box it up and drive it over to the UPS Store.  Just chuck the thing and buy something else.

If you think having a scope is worth a buck a day, at the end of the year, you're just about even.  Everything beyond that is just gravy.

Even better, you would perhaps be chucking the Rigol and given the opportunity to try out the Instek.  Think how many people will applaud that opportunity!


What, the people have no bread? Let them eat cake !!


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thomastheo on June 23, 2016, 10:07:33 pm
Hey,

I'm just about to pull the trigger on buying a ds1054z from batronix (although conrad is another option, i'm not sure which to choose, and any advice on this is welcome). I'm concerned that the reports on SP2 suggest a degree of sluggishness in the UI, and given that it seems to be impossible to roll back to SP1 I would like to ask just how serious of an issue this is for you existing users.

I am selling my beloved and coddled tektronix 475 scope with dm44 (and near unused crt) in order to finance this purchase, and really want to make sure i'm not locking myself in to a world of frustration.

Thanks for the feedback!

Th.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on June 23, 2016, 10:28:33 pm
Hey,

I'm just about to pull the trigger on buying a ds1054z from batronix (although conrad is another option, i'm not sure which to choose, and any advice on this is welcome). I'm concerned that the reports on SP2 suggest a degree of sluggishness in the UI, and given that it seems to be impossible to roll back to SP1 I would like to ask just how serious of an issue this is for you existing users.

I am selling my beloved and coddled tektronix 475 scope with dm44 (and near unused crt) in order to finance this purchase, and really want to make sure i'm not locking myself in to a world of frustration.

Thanks for the feedback!

Th.
What exactly will you be using it for?  :-//

Meaning will you be using the advanced settings and all four channels simultaneously? Or just a couple of channels and few, if any of the advanced features most of the time?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 23, 2016, 10:39:31 pm
Most of the people on this forum bought the Rigol because they use the "extra" features and bandwidth that they unlocked and either don't run into, work around, or ignore the existing bugs. In other words, the features offset the bugs. I rarely run into the bugs, so they don't get in my way. YMMV

If you don't have a need for the "extras" and/or you often need to use the functionality on the Rigol that have issues, then you might consider, for example, the GW Instek 1054B. I especially like that it has separate controls for each of the four channels.

So, it really depends what you need/will use it for.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thomastheo on June 23, 2016, 10:47:37 pm
Hey,

I'm just about to pull the trigger on buying a ds1054z from batronix (although conrad is another option, i'm not sure which to choose, and any advice on this is welcome). I'm concerned that the reports on SP2 suggest a degree of sluggishness in the UI, and given that it seems to be impossible to roll back to SP1 I would like to ask just how serious of an issue this is for you existing users.

I am selling my beloved and coddled tektronix 475 scope with dm44 (and near unused crt) in order to finance this purchase, and really want to make sure i'm not locking myself in to a world of frustration.

Thanks for the feedback!

Th.
What exactly will you be using it for?  :-//

Meaning will you be using the advanced settings and all four channels simultaneously? Or just a couple of channels and few, if any of the advanced features most of the time?

That is the 400 euro question indeed :)

I love my tek475, but doing the number crunching manually is starting to get old, and the built in math functions of the rigol are a major selling point for me, besides the storage of course, which is the most significant reason above all. Besides that, for microntroller peripheral stuff the serial decoding is a big plus. Is it the case that the sluggishness is limited if you engage the math functions on only a channel or two? I'm just trying to get a sense of perspective on the matter. Is it a major setback, or just a minor quibble?  that sort of thing...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on June 23, 2016, 11:19:39 pm
That is the 400 euro question indeed :)

I love my tek475, but doing the number crunching manually is starting to get old, and the built in math functions of the rigol are a major selling point for me, besides the storage of course, which is the most significant reason above all. Besides that, for microntroller peripheral stuff the serial decoding is a big plus. Is it the case that the sluggishness is limited if you engage the math functions on only a channel or two? I'm just trying to get a sense of perspective on the matter. Is it a major setback, or just a minor quibble?  that sort of thing...
Just turn off a couple of channels (i.e. 2 & 4 or 1 & 3) if you need to run the math trace. If this isn't possible, you'll just have to wait for it to do the computations. And if you're just after common measurements, you don't have to run the math trace for those.

So I see it as a minor quibble/annoyance. Finally, keep in mind this can be fixed, assuming Rigol is still interested in working on it (or at least enable a roll-back scheme).

YMMV however, so sit down and think carefully about what you need out of it. And as mentioned, most of the bugs have work-arounds, although not necessarily convenient.

Personally, I find it an acceptable trade-off, but I do have a TEK 2445B on a shelf should I need it (even does measurements).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on June 23, 2016, 11:22:01 pm
The bugs are fairly obvious, so I will not explain them. But to quantify the sluggishness, I roughly estimate the responsiveness to UI input is 25% normal when everything is turned on (4 channels with math). That is, to get a trace position to move, I have to twiddle the knob about 4 times as much to get the same response as when just one channel is on. I don't think there is much a lag with just one channel, but I never had the luxury of using the scope when it was "fast" Now get ready for Cunningham's Law to take effect
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on June 23, 2016, 11:33:20 pm
Most of the people on this forum bought the Rigol because they use the "extra" features and bandwidth that they unlocked and either don't run into, work around, or ignore the existing bugs. In other words, the features offset the bugs. I rarely run into the bugs, so they don't get in my way. YMMV

If you don't have a need for the "extras" and/or you often need to use the functionality on the Rigol that have issues, then you might consider, for example, the GW Instek 1054B. I especially like that it has separate controls for each of the four channels.

So, it really depends what you need/will use it for.

But by the time you get up to 100 MHz AND 4 channels (without decoding), you move up to the GDS-1104B and it's $733 at TEquipment - nearly twice the cost of the DS1054Z.  And you still don't have decoding...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: PushUp on June 24, 2016, 12:14:50 am
Hello,

having read a lot in this forum, but obviously not everything, I have a question to my new 1054z, which I got yesterday.

I was surprised when I saw that I still have board version 0.1.1, but the newest FW 00.04.03.02.03. Regarding to the "used look" of the display, I am quiet sure, that I got a kind of "refurbished" one in just a new packiging.

Is there any reason to stick to this first board version or do the newer ones have a significant advantage? Of course I haven't touched the activation of the additional options yet. On page 38/39 someone mentioned that his board version changed during this activation process from 0.2.2 to 0.1.1, which could underline my assumption, that the dealer sold me something old, I am not willing to pay for, when he just did a reset in order to sell it to the next twit...

Any hint or opinion is appreciated, maybe someone experienced the same issue...? Thank you very much!

Cheers!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 24, 2016, 12:19:13 am
But by the time you get up to 100 MHz AND 4 channels (without decoding), you move up to the GDS-1104B and it's $733 at TEquipment - nearly twice the cost of the DS1054Z.  And you still don't have decoding...

Yep, it all depends what you need, what you're willing to live with and pay for. Everyone much choose for themselves.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 24, 2016, 12:21:46 am
having read a lot in this forum, but obviously not everything, I have a question to my new 1054z, which I got yesterday.

I was surprised when I saw that I still have board version 0.1.1, but the newest FW 00.04.03.02.03. Regarding to the "used look" of the display, I am quiet sure, that I got a kind of "refurbished" one in just a new packiging.

Welcome to the forum! If you purchased a new device and got a "refurbished" one, take it back for a new one or a refund.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on June 24, 2016, 12:37:14 am
[...]
 I have a question to my new 1054z, which I got yesterday.
I was surprised when I saw that I still have board version 0.1.1, but the newest FW 00.04.03.02.03. [...]
[...]
On page 38/39 someone mentioned that his board version changed during this activation process from 0.2.2 to 0.1.1
[...]

It is nothing wrong with "board version 0.1.1". Look:
(The boot version changed from 0.0.1.3 to 0.0.1.4.)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=223211;image)

If you have doubts about the scope: Send it back!
Otherwise you will never be happy with it...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 24, 2016, 04:53:02 am
Most of the people on this forum bought the Rigol because they use the "extra" features and bandwidth that they unlocked and either don't run into, work around, or ignore the existing bugs. In other words, the features offset the bugs. I rarely run into the bugs, so they don't get in my way. YMMV

This post is a good summary of the current state of the bugs:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg966871/#msg966871 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg966871/#msg966871)

I suggest reading it several times.

Bottom line: They're mostly minor niggles unless you're using the math functions.


If you don't have a need for the "extras" and/or you often need to use the functionality on the Rigol that have issues, then you might consider, for example, the GW Instek 1054B. I especially like that it has separate controls for each of the four channels.

Sure: Half the bandwidth, no serial decoders, less memory, poor build quality... a real bargain!

Not.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 24, 2016, 05:22:03 am
I'm not joining the ever-recurring arguments. Everyone's needs, wants, budgets, etc. are different. There are other scopes on the market and people will have to make their own decision, for better or worse. Hopefully, they'll choose the one that works best for them.

(BTW, as already stated, I have a DS1054Z.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 24, 2016, 07:08:38 am
I'm not joining the ever-recurring arguments. Everyone's needs, wants, budgets, etc. are different. There are other scopes on the market and people will have to make their own decision, for better or worse. Hopefully, they'll choose the one that works best for them.

Sure. If you need math functions, today, then the DS1054Z isn't for you.

For everybody else: There's nothing to touch an unlocked DS1054Z until you go over $1000.

$400 to $1000 is a big leap but that's really how good the DS1054Z is compared to the competition.

If Rigol released a decent firmware update then nobody would even consider a GW-Instek. That's all it would take.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 24, 2016, 07:21:55 am
Here's to hoping that we'll get a good firmware update in the very near future. :popcorn: (We need a beer smiley.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on June 24, 2016, 09:00:16 am
Hello,

having read a lot in this forum, but obviously not everything, I have a question to my new 1054z, which I got yesterday.

I was surprised when I saw that I still have board version 0.1.1, but the newest FW 00.04.03.02.03. Regarding to the "used look" of the display, I am quiet sure, that I got a kind of "refurbished" one in just a new packiging.

Is there any reason to stick to this first board version or do the newer ones have a significant advantage? Of course I haven't touched the activation of the additional options yet. On page 38/39 someone mentioned that his board version changed during this activation process from 0.2.2 to 0.1.1, which could underline my assumption, that the dealer sold me something old, I am not willing to pay for, when he just did a reset in order to sell it to the next twit...

Any hint or opinion is appreciated, maybe someone experienced the same issue...? Thank you very much!

Cheers!

Was it in a double box (box in box) or just a single box. This would be the biggest tell-tale of whether it's been refurbished.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: PushUp on June 24, 2016, 09:52:42 am

Was it in a double box (box in box) or just a single box. This would be the biggest tell-tale of whether it's been refurbished.

McBryce.

Exactly, this was the point! After seeing so much unboxing-videos, this was my first amazement, that the scope was only in the "inner box", without the protection of the larger one!

Thanx for the other replies, too!

I will sent it back, because beneath the "CH1-button" there is a black fluff which is illuminated by the backlight all the time of course, which would remind me of the flop all the time together with the display...

Your comments made it easier for me to make up my mind - thank you very much!!!

Cheers!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on June 24, 2016, 02:42:22 pm
Hello,

having read a lot in this forum, but obviously not everything, I have a question to my new 1054z, which I got yesterday.

I was surprised when I saw that I still have board version 0.1.1, but the newest FW 00.04.03.02.03. Regarding to the "used look" of the display, I am quiet sure, that I got a kind of "refurbished" one in just a new packiging.

Is there any reason to stick to this first board version or do the newer ones have a significant advantage? Of course I haven't touched the activation of the additional options yet. On page 38/39 someone mentioned that his board version changed during this activation process from 0.2.2 to 0.1.1, which could underline my assumption, that the dealer sold me something old, I am not willing to pay for, when he just did a reset in order to sell it to the next twit...

Any hint or opinion is appreciated, maybe someone experienced the same issue...? Thank you very much!

Cheers!

Was it in a double box (box in box) or just a single box. This would be the biggest tell-tale of whether it's been refurbished.

McBryce.

Hello single box doesn't mean the unit is refurbished. They used to come in box to box but when the import get big quanitties it will be single box only to save space into the container.
Of course if the unit seems faulty must be returned under warranty  :-+

As example we just got a first delivery of the new RIGOL DP711 150W power supply, and because of small quantities it is box in box.

Cheers.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Iwanushka on June 24, 2016, 03:04:13 pm
Mine came in a plain box with stickers from DE rigol what model it is (got
It from local distributor that orders quite a few of them every few months), looks like new to me

I think single box is cheaper to transport when you get a bunch of them packed on a pallet

Edit: only strange thing about the rigol was that it did not came in a colorful box with all that swag like other brands have
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on June 24, 2016, 03:09:22 pm
Hello single box doesn't mean the unit is refurbished. They used to come in box to box but when the import get big quanitties it will be single box only to save space into the container.

Of course if the unit seems faulty must be returned under warranty  :-+
Of course, but a clearly refurbished item sold as a new unit should also be returned if the buyer is not happy, whether or not it "seems faulty".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on June 24, 2016, 03:22:32 pm
Hello single box doesn't mean the unit is refurbished. They used to come in box to box but when the import get big quanitties it will be single box only to save space into the container.

Of course if the unit seems faulty must be returned under warranty  :-+
Of course, but a clearly refurbished item sold as a new unit should also be returned if the buyer is not happy, whether or not it "seems faulty".

Totally agree.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 24, 2016, 03:38:51 pm
Hello single box doesn't mean the unit is refurbished. They used to come in box to box but when the import get big quanitties it will be single box only to save space into the container.

Really?

Of course, but a clearly refurbished item sold as a new unit should also be returned if the buyer is not happy, whether or not it "seems faulty".
Totally agree.

Yep. It might have been used for a week in a peanut factory. It could kill you if you have a peanut allergy.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on June 24, 2016, 03:54:13 pm
It might have been used for a week in a peanut factory. It could kill you if you have a peanut allergy.
Now imagine if they made it from peanut based bioplastics...  :o  >:D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 24, 2016, 04:53:49 pm
My first one came in a nice new double box, from TEquipment. I had to return it under seller's warranty due to a hardware glitch.  TEquipment wanted me to send it back to them inside another even larger box.  (UPS "delivered" this one by tossing it onto the porch of the _vacant house_ next door, even though "Signature required" was indicated by the shipper.)

The replacement from TEquipment came in just the single box, and had a serial number that was smaller (earlier) than the one I sent back to them, by quite a bit. Ironic, since I had waited through their out-of-stock and west-coast dockworker's strike for the first one-- ordered in February 2015 and delivered in April. (This one was sent "second day air" and after waiting all day the second day I finally saw the UPS truck down the block at about 10:30 pm, and I had to run him down before he delivered it to some random location once again.)

Then when Rigol USA offered to replace the one that had Boot Version 0.0.1.2 with the later Boot Version 0.0.1.3, again it arrived in a single box from Rigol USA.  BUT... this box had some extra shipping labels still on it: It had first gone to some purchaser in Arkansas, then got returned to Rigol USA, and finally got sent to me.
It did get delivered properly by UPS that time though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 24, 2016, 05:52:00 pm
Wow, that's quite the adventure.

I bought mine from Saelig. They had a promo at the time that included a nice padded carrying bag. So, I haven't had experience with TEquipment yet.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on June 24, 2016, 07:46:19 pm
I bought from Tequipment. Came relatively fast. It was what I expected.

Is this our DS1054Z Q&A topic?

I was looking at the record option. If my sweep is set to 100 ms, I notice I can set my interval to less than 1.2 seconds (but when I twiddle the knob there, it reacts very slow). I think Interval is the time between the start of one recorded frame and the next. How can I set the interval to something less than my total sweep? Will the recorded frames just contain overlapping data? Also, I can record over 5000 frames (what they call Length  :-//), up to 10 seconds apart. That's over 13 hours! What happens if I am in normal trigger and nothing triggers? Do I just get the same frame (current screen) recorded at each interval, or will it wait for a trigger to record the frame (I kind of think the former)?

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Iwanushka on June 24, 2016, 07:52:00 pm
Guys,

Somehow my google-fu failed me, IIRC someone made nice FFT app that can do "unlimited" points from saved waveform, can someone point me in right direction?

Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: voltsandjolts on June 24, 2016, 08:26:29 pm
Guys,

Somehow my google-fu failed me, IIRC someone made nice FFT app that can do "unlimited" points from saved waveform, can someone point me in right direction?

Thanks

Maybe you're thinking of pyDSA?
http://rheslip.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/software-spectrum-analyzer-for-rigol.html (http://rheslip.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/software-spectrum-analyzer-for-rigol.html)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 24, 2016, 10:10:19 pm
@metrologist: Yes, Q&A here is fine. I haven't used the recording function, but I'm sure someone who has will come along. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on June 24, 2016, 10:45:28 pm
Boot version 0.0.1.2
Build date Sep-11-2015 (lol @ that date)
mine is
Boot version 0.0.1.4
Build date 9/11 (IU' ES EI! IU' ES EI) 2015

interesting
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on June 24, 2016, 11:16:15 pm
I bought from Tequipment. Came relatively fast. It was what I expected.

Is this our DS1054Z Q&A topic?

I was looking at the record option. If my sweep is set to 100 ms, I notice I can set my interval to less than 1.2 seconds (but when I twiddle the knob there, it reacts very slow). I think Interval is the time between the start of one recorded frame and the next. How can I set the interval to something less than my total sweep? Will the recorded frames just contain overlapping data? Also, I can record over 5000 frames (what they call Length  :-//), up to 10 seconds apart. That's over 13 hours! What happens if I am in normal trigger and nothing triggers? Do I just get the same frame (current screen) recorded at each interval, or will it wait for a trigger to record the frame (I kind of think the former)?

Thanks!

You can't do overlapped recordings. The interval is the minimum gap between the end of one trace and start of the next. In normal trigger mode, if nothing triggers, you get nothing. You must have a trigger of some description in normal mode to get a trace whether in record mode or not. So each frame needs a trigger.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on June 24, 2016, 11:38:49 pm
I bought from Tequipment. Came relatively fast. It was what I expected.

Is this our DS1054Z Q&A topic?

I was looking at the record option. If my sweep is set to 100 ms, I notice I can set my interval to less than 1.2 seconds (but when I twiddle the knob there, it reacts very slow). I think Interval is the time between the start of one recorded frame and the next. How can I set the interval to something less than my total sweep? Will the recorded frames just contain overlapping data? Also, I can record over 5000 frames (what they call Length  :-//), up to 10 seconds apart. That's over 13 hours! What happens if I am in normal trigger and nothing triggers? Do I just get the same frame (current screen) recorded at each interval, or will it wait for a trigger to record the frame (I kind of think the former)?

Thanks!

You can't do overlapped recordings. The interval is the minimum gap between the end of one trace and start of the next. In normal trigger mode, if nothing triggers, you get nothing. You must have a trigger of some description in normal mode to get a trace whether in record mode or not. So each frame needs a trigger.

Thanks Howard. I see it is the time between frames. So if my signal drops below trigger, I get nothing. I think I can test that easy enough.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on June 25, 2016, 07:06:41 am
I bought from Tequipment. Came relatively fast. It was what I expected.

Is this our DS1054Z Q&A topic?

I was looking at the record option. If my sweep is set to 100 ms, I notice I can set my interval to less than 1.2 seconds (but when I twiddle the knob there, it reacts very slow). I think Interval is the time between the start of one recorded frame and the next. How can I set the interval to something less than my total sweep? Will the recorded frames just contain overlapping data? Also, I can record over 5000 frames (what they call Length  :-//), up to 10 seconds apart. That's over 13 hours! What happens if I am in normal trigger and nothing triggers? Do I just get the same frame (current screen) recorded at each interval, or will it wait for a trigger to record the frame (I kind of think the former)?

Thanks!

You can't do overlapped recordings. The interval is the minimum gap between the end of one trace and start of the next. In normal trigger mode, if nothing triggers, you get nothing. You must have a trigger of some description in normal mode to get a trace whether in record mode or not. So each frame needs a trigger.

Thanks Howard. I see it is the time between frames. So if my signal drops below trigger, I get nothing. I think I can test that easy enough.

I did ;-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on June 28, 2016, 10:23:28 pm
I am just chiming in to note that I have a newer version of this scope than I've seen anywhere. I just bought it from Amazon.

Under System->System Info, I see Software Version 00.04.03.SP2. The more detailed version is below.

I marked the things I haven't seen anyone else have yet in bold:

ModelDS1054Z
SN(ommitted)
Software Version00.04.03.02.03
Board Version0.1.4
Boot Version0.0.1.4
Firmware Version0.2.3.11
CPLD Version1.1
Build DateSep 11 2015 09:42:... (ommitted)

I can also confirm that the upgrade to DSER works, changing the above to:

ModelDS1104Z
SN(ommitted)
Software Version00.04.03.02.03
Board Version0.1.4
Boot Version0.0.1.4
Firmware Version0.2.3.11
CPLD Version1.1
Build DateSep 11 2015 09:42:... (ommitted)

As for what is different for the 0.14 board? I have no idea, and I don't think I can be compelled to open up my unit and void my warranty. I would be happy to do any tests to see if something has changed, though. You can email me.

-tg
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 28, 2016, 11:02:37 pm
Welcome to the forum, technogeeky.

I don't recall which board version I have, but regarding the firmware, that's just Rigol's odd way of naming versions. Specifically, 00.04.03.02.03 = 00.04.03.SP2, released on 2015-10-20.

There has been third-party information (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/my-new-(i-suspect-faulty)-ds1054z/msg971719/#msg971719) that a firmware update is coming in a month or so.

Edit: Added link to reference.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on June 28, 2016, 11:29:55 pm
I love my tek475, but doing the number crunching manually is starting to get old, and the built in math functions of the rigol are a major selling point for me, besides the storage of course, which is the most significant reason above all. Besides that, for microntroller peripheral stuff the serial decoding is a big plus. Is it the case that the sluggishness is limited if you engage the math functions on only a channel or two? I'm just trying to get a sense of perspective on the matter. Is it a major setback, or just a minor quibble?  that sort of thing...

I presume you are aware of "features" including
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/question-about-analog-oscilloscopes-vs-digital-oscilloscopes/msg971885/#msg971885 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/question-about-analog-oscilloscopes-vs-digital-oscilloscopes/msg971885/#msg971885)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/my-new-(i-suspect-faulty)-ds1054z/msg963322/#msg963322 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/my-new-(i-suspect-faulty)-ds1054z/msg963322/#msg963322)
For me, those would be sufficiently unsettling that I wouldn't trust any numbers without visually number crunching - which rather spoils the benefit.

There's also the questions as to whether 200MHz is significantly more useful w.r.t. signal integrity than 50/100MHz, and whether protocol decodes could/should be done in the digital domain, e.g. by logic analysers or printf statements.

For clarity, I do not have a Rigol.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 29, 2016, 04:19:03 am
There has been third-party information (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/my-new-(i-suspect-faulty)-ds1054z/msg971719/#msg971719) that a firmware update is coming in a month or so.

Oh, dear. That's bad news for certain forum members...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 29, 2016, 04:34:30 am
Maybe, but I'm not saying anything until it arrives. Might be better, could be worse. :o ^-^
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 29, 2016, 03:14:11 pm
Let's hope they at least give the new firmware an honest try (and have the spellings reviewed by native speakers of each available language) before they release it into the wild.

(I suppose the ability to roll back to earlier versions is too much to ask for.)    |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 29, 2016, 05:11:11 pm
Yeah, being able to roll back would remove much of the trepidation about installing new firmware. Without being able to roll back and given Rigol's track record on QA thus far, I will not install new firmware until it's been in the wild for a while. It's not like I have a bunch of these lying around where I can sacrifice one "for science".

This may be an oscilloscope in function, but it's fundamentally a computer running software. Rigol would do well to take a page from the IT industry's playbook about how to produce, document, and deploy updates. At least they have release notes nowadays, though those could still be improved.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on June 29, 2016, 05:29:10 pm
Let's hope they at least give the new firmware an honest try (and have the spellings reviewed by native speakers of each available language) before they release it into the wild.

Ill second that, you've really got you finger on the plus.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 29, 2016, 05:39:48 pm
Rigol would do well to take a page from the IT industry's playbook about how to produce, document, and deploy updates.

Endless nag screens telling you to update to Rigol 10?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 29, 2016, 06:31:41 pm
LOL! Microsoft is not a good example.

Side note: I've used Linux, OS X, and Windows for a long time. Of the three, Windows has been and continues to be the most irritating, infuriating, and productivity sapping platform.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BFX on June 29, 2016, 08:30:08 pm
LOL! Microsoft is not a good example.

Side note: I've used Linux, OS X, and Windows for a long time. Of the three, Windows has been and continues to be the most irritating, infuriating, and productivity sapping platform.
I "believe" you  :palm: typical enthusiast without any experience in professional sector.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 29, 2016, 08:50:16 pm
That's OK, you don't have to believe me. My statement is about my own experiences, which were similar in professional and personal environments over the years. Your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thomastheo on June 29, 2016, 09:08:03 pm
There has been third-party information (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/my-new-(i-suspect-faulty)-ds1054z/msg971719/#msg971719) that a firmware update is coming in a month or so.

Oh, dear. That's bad news for certain forum members...

Forgive my ignorance, but why would this be a bad thing? I just got mine today, and wondering to apply the 'upgrade' now or wait until new firmware comes out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 29, 2016, 09:39:46 pm
If you already have SP2 firmware on yours, you need do nothing. If you have an earlier firmware and don't require the fixes or features in newer versions of firmware, then you can continue using what you have. SP2 introduced some new bugs.

We do not have official information about all the changes in the upcoming firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 29, 2016, 10:01:33 pm
There has been third-party information (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/my-new-(i-suspect-faulty)-ds1054z/msg971719/#msg971719) that a firmware update is coming in a month or so.

Oh, dear. That's bad news for certain forum members...

Forgive my ignorance, but why would this be a bad thing? I just got mine today, and wondering to apply the 'upgrade' now or wait until new firmware comes out.

I think the tongue-in-cheek icon was missing in Fungus' post. Some forum members have been dwelling at length on the existence of certain software flaws in the DS1000Z scopes, the perceived lack of timely bugfix releases etc.. So these members might now need to look for something else to complain about.

Or maybe Rigol will provide them with that something, by introducing new flaws in the new release...  :P
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 29, 2016, 10:23:27 pm
No one would be happier than I, to see all the previous flaws fixed, without the introduction of new ones, in some new firmware release.

Although I do find it amusing sometimes to see people saying stuff like "I never use that setting, so stop complaining that it doesn't work properly for you. After all, it's only 400 dollars."
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on June 29, 2016, 10:45:38 pm
Although I do find it amusing sometimes to see people saying stuff like "I never use that setting, so stop complaining that it doesn't work properly for you. After all, it's only 400 dollars."

LOL - I'd like to ask people - at what price, exactly, is everything on an oscilloscope supposed to work properly, if not at $400? 

$425 ...
$495
$517 ...

:popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CustomEngineerer on June 30, 2016, 04:49:33 am
Although I do find it amusing sometimes to see people saying stuff like "I never use that setting, so stop complaining that it doesn't work properly for you. After all, it's only 400 dollars."

LOL - I'd like to ask people - at what price, exactly, is everything on an oscilloscope supposed to work properly, if not at $400? 

$425 ...
$495
$517 ...

:popcorn:

$689.23, and not a cent less.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2016, 09:41:06 am
Forgive my ignorance, but why would this be a bad thing?

Only for a handful of forum members. For everybody else it's good.

I just got mine today, and wondering to apply the 'upgrade' now or wait until new firmware comes out.

a) You might already have the latest version.

b) Firmware updates don't magically transform your oscilloscope and make everything better. If you're not blocked by a very specific problem that you know is fixed by updating the firmware then I say leave it alone.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Plus: There's always a very tiny (but non-zero) chance that an update will go horribly wrong and brick your scope.

Me? I haven't applied last November's update yet. I'd probably do it it I needed a better FFT, but I don't, so...  :-//


PS: It's really up to you. I'm old and wise but you just got a new 'scope and want it to be the best 'scope it can be(!)  I'd understand. :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: et328 on June 30, 2016, 10:58:15 am
b) Firmware updates don't magically transform your oscilloscope and make everything better.
Yes they do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90IcNcWhcF4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90IcNcWhcF4)
 :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on June 30, 2016, 11:11:48 am
Can you post a link to that firmware file? :)

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2016, 11:56:11 am
b) Firmware updates don't magically transform your oscilloscope and make everything better.
Yes they do:

I knew I was going to regret posting that.

I own a DSO quad (open source pocket oscilloscope). A different firmware can totally transform that, I think there's even a firmware to play Tetris on it.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 30, 2016, 01:05:09 pm
(snip)

Me? I haven't applied last November's update yet. I'd probably do it it I needed a better FFT, but I don't, so...  :-//


(snip)


And yet, you seem to be critical of those of us who have applied that update and are not happy with the problems it introduces.

 :palm:


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 30, 2016, 02:00:02 pm
...
...

I wonder if the forum software has an option to ignore posts from user A, but only if they include a quote from user B (or vice versa).  ::) 
Following these constant quarrels is not fun anymore...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2016, 02:49:01 pm
And yet, you seem to be critical of those of us who have applied that update and are not happy with the problems it introduces.

I'm only critical of people of the people who invade every single thread that mentions the DS1054Z and try to turn it into their own personal Rigol-bashing thread.

eg. The "DS1054Z noise" thread that you recently invaded.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: oxigencult on July 05, 2016, 09:04:51 pm
Hi to all.

I recently bought this model. it comes with  00.04.03.sp2 and board 0.1.1

(https://s32.postimg.org/jpt4obupx/DS1_Z_Quick_Print1.png)

my questions is if I should I apply the "patch" on the current firmware? and if I upgrade will I lose it? or upgrade firmware first if there is any new better firmware?


Thanks,

João
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 05, 2016, 09:30:53 pm
If by "patch" you mean the hacks for BW, Trigger, Decoders and Memory, it doesn't matter when you apply them.  Updating the firmware doesn't change the what has been applied.  If you do, be sure to use DSER for everything except the 500uV/Div which doesn't work.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: oxigencult on July 05, 2016, 09:33:28 pm
If by "patch" you mean the hacks for BW, Trigger, Decoders and Memory, it doesn't matter when you apply them.  Updating the firmware doesn't change the what has been applied.  If you do, be sure to use DSER for everything except the 500uV/Div which doesn't work.

Yes, I mean the hacks. I'm, aware of the DSER option.


Thanks for your reply,

João
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 06, 2016, 05:16:10 am
So I decided it would be very ungentlemanly for me to withhold teardown information from my (apparently uniquely version-ed) 0.14 board. So I tried to avoid destroying my VOID IF BROKEN sticker and failed miserably. Having passed that barrier, I didn't see any reason to not go ahead.

Please excuse the blurry pictures. These were taken from a low-Neptune orbit space telescope, so they are actually quite well focused despite being apparently blurry.


(http://i.imgur.com/hSWfEkN.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/CsExT9S.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/PyY9vku.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/GgdaiZI.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/ubvhGRY.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/pGBIIl5.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/PFFMKRS.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/vwFHBny.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/tZRUD3C.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/I0skEEl.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/VmOUfGX.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/JvPHUxI.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/QSIjl20.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/Wz7rotw.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/ACmjSt3.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/lmteTst.jpg)



So, after all that... what's changed? As far as I can tell, nothing. :=\


The only real change is that the logic analyser pinout grid has been removed, and some associated hardware has been removed. The memory is a different chip. The pin connectors under 'SP Version' have been removed. As far as I can tell, nothing has been added or changed.

I suppose I was naive to have thought anything else would happen.

Oh well. I hope I don't need to warranty this thing, ever.

Cheers,
-tg
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 06, 2016, 10:11:01 am

And yet, you seem to be critical of those of us who have applied that update and are not happy with the problems it introduces.

I'm only critical of people of the people who invade every single thread that mentions the DS1054Z and try to turn it into their own personal Rigol-bashing thread.

eg. The "DS1054Z noise" thread that you recently invaded.

Rigol-bashing? Moi? Surely you jest. I use the scope every day in my work and I've helped many people understand the scope's quirks and limitations. It gives me great amusement. And I've never once complained about the "loud" fan or the fumbly encoders.

After all, what other scope can display 5 bugs simultaneously?  And for only 400 dollars, even.      :-DD

When are you going to update your scope to the latest firmware, so that you can have as much fun with it as the rest of us?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 06, 2016, 10:15:35 am
@ technogeeky:

So what's up with this transistor?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 06, 2016, 10:59:44 am
Rigol-bashing? Moi? Surely you jest. I use the scope every day in my work and I've helped many people understand the scope's quirks and limitations. It gives me great amusement. And I've never once complained about the "loud" fan

That's because you work in a noisy room.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-ds1000z-fan-noise/msg649480/#msg649480 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-ds1000z-fan-noise/msg649480/#msg649480)

When are you going to update your scope to the latest firmware, so that you can have as much fun with it as the rest of us?

Is the "latest" firmware available to the public yet?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 06, 2016, 10:56:39 pm
@ technogeeky:

So what's up with this transistor?

Unfortunately, I had to re-open it to find out.

Fortunately, it was just some flux or glue or something that made the transistor shiny. It's intact. (Which is what I expected, since all four channels work fine and look OK).

Whew!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 06, 2016, 11:19:42 pm
Rigol-bashing? Moi? Surely you jest. I use the scope every day in my work and I've helped many people understand the scope's quirks and limitations. It gives me great amusement. And I've never once complained about the "loud" fan

That's because you work in a noisy room.

Yes, "work" being the operative word.  And I also know how to press the encoder shaft-buttons so as not to turn them at the same time -- something that seems to be beyond the ability of some users, who have even gone so far as to tear their scopes apart to replace the encoders.

Quote

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-ds1000z-fan-noise/msg649480/#msg649480 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-ds1000z-fan-noise/msg649480/#msg649480)

When are you going to update your scope to the latest firmware, so that you can have as much fun with it as the rest of us?

Is the "latest" firmware available to the public yet?

The latest firmware has been available to the public since last October or earlier, and its .GEL file is dated 11 September 2015. 

Although one source says it is dated June 16, 2015.

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm)

But then, you knew that already.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 06, 2016, 11:44:53 pm
When are you going to update your scope to the latest firmware, so that you can have as much fun with it as the rest of us?

Is the "latest" firmware available to the public yet?

For me, I have NO intention of ever updating my firmware to 00.04.03.SP2.  I'm holding out for the next version to see what it has to offer.  I'm currently running 00.04.03.SP1.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 07, 2016, 01:47:51 am
And I also know how to press the encoder shaft-buttons so as not to turn them at the same time -- something that seems to be beyond the ability of some users, who have even gone so far as to tear their scopes apart to replace the encoders.

I'm really sorry I mentioned this as a minor annoyance. It was a stretch...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 07, 2016, 02:23:35 am
No need to be sorry for being annoyed by that "feature". Rigol should've used a rotary encoder with detents for the menu. A smooth one is suboptimal for this purpose.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 07, 2016, 05:12:22 am
The latest firmware

please, can you two at least agree on a truce until the NEW firmware update is released? (rumors say it is being released later this month)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 07, 2016, 06:44:06 am
No need to be sorry for being annoyed by that "feature". Rigol should've used a rotary encoder with detents for the menu. A smooth one is suboptimal for this purpose.

They should allow you to press the menu button to accept the selection and close the menu (the same button that opened the menu).

Also: Using the blue up/down arrows to go up/down inside the menu would be a nice touch.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 07, 2016, 07:09:09 am
I agree that there are many interaction design flaws with the interface in its current form. :-BROKE
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on July 07, 2016, 10:21:33 am
And I also know how to press the encoder shaft-buttons so as not to turn them at the same time -- something that seems to be beyond the ability of some users, who have even gone so far as to tear their scopes apart to replace the encoders.
Good usability shouldn't require the user to learn a fiddly method just to perform an everyday function. Rigol screwed the pooch on this. A non-detended encoder without software hysteresis is just terrible.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on July 07, 2016, 03:38:15 pm

Occurs the problem with the multipurpose encoder after some time of using?
Or just on day one?

Honest: I have no problem with it (at least until now).   :-//
Even if a detent button would have been nicer...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on July 07, 2016, 03:43:49 pm

Occurs the problem with the multipurpose encoder after some time of using?
Or just on day one?

Honest: I have no problem with it (at least until now).   :-//
Even if a detent button would have been nicer...

It's a design flaw and the effect is immediately apparent.  Just about the time you press the knob, the selection changes.  Sure, it is possible to 'get along' with the encoder but why?  Replacing the encoder is pretty easy and the improvement is noticeable.

As to the warranty?  Who cares?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 07, 2016, 06:15:48 pm
never had this particular problem.
though i would love if they corrected the sensitivity for the horizontal position knob
i don't know if it is only mine but there is a very tiny difference in rotating speed between moving a couple of pixels and a whole couple screens
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on July 08, 2016, 08:03:40 am
I tried to duplicate your problem just using the calibration square wave.  I found small slow speed adjustments worked fine in pixel terms.  A quick tweek does make it shift in larger steps.  It does depend on how your triggering is set up and the type of waveform you are displaying.  A similar effect shows up with a sine wave display.  Perhaps you can supply the set up you are using?   I have not found it a problem on my scope.

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: boba on July 10, 2016, 08:03:54 pm
Just a comment that the all-options hack still works fine on a new scope delivered only last week, v4.03.SP2. I had a couple of false starts, but the archived site at https://web.archive.org/web/20131215225141/http://riglol.3owl.com/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20131215225141/http://riglol.3owl.com/) worked just fine for me. I used UltraSigma to avoid mistakes and typos.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janekivi on July 10, 2016, 08:10:34 pm
After little pause with 3des in Siglent firmware I took a small look in Keysight nk.bin file and
don't remember where after that... But then I start peeking into Rigol DS1000ZUpdate.GEL.
This is simple and of course there is keygenerator for software options...
I can't disassemble something but just looking this "pluses" part here.
Update file itself is header with file names - their lenght - data beginning in file - and crc32.
Last file in this row is end part with only start and lenght. After extracting files some of them
have header with crc32 and some data like:
1B C3 C1 96 03 00 00 00 FC A7 10 00 AA 55 55 AA FB 7E 3D 00 00 00 00 00
and after that is magic bytes for LZMA compression which are 5D 00 00 80. So after striping
previous header this file can be unpacked with 7zip and then ... whatever you like
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 10, 2016, 09:05:01 pm
Hi janekivi! Thanks for exploring this. I saw your dissecting work on the Siglent thread. So, we can fix those errant strings and reassemble the .GEL file? That'd be great. I'd like to fix some of the other labels, messages, etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janekivi on July 11, 2016, 04:07:21 pm
Yeah, but there is 260 bytes footer which can contain something... not hackable with notepad.
There may be 256 bytes some crypted data.
Main app can handle:
40150D70: found sparse constants for RC5_RC6
401CEDDC: found sparse constants for SHA-1
401F3DEC: found const array CRC32_m_tab (used in CRC32)
401F5E6C: found const array zinflate_lengthExtraBits (used in zlib)
401F5EE0: found const array zinflate_distanceExtraBits (used in zlib)
Somebody must look how app is reading that part of firmware file.
There is 2 files for screen gui - guiPicData.hex and guiResData.hex (inside here is lots of text).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janekivi on July 11, 2016, 08:37:29 pm
Main app is too big, over 1000kb when packed. It contains many stuff...
like internal web pages and images
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 11, 2016, 10:57:57 pm
Thanks for the attachments. I'll take a closer look at them tonight.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 12, 2016, 05:06:26 am
guiPicData, as the name suggests, appears to be image data (icons, etc.). guiResData has a lot of text resources including the help text and menu item labels. I wasn't able to find "Pluses", only the normal "Pulse" and "Pulses". I was also looking for "Function Limited!", but didn't find it in guiResData. Perhaps those labels and messages are in a different file.

Where did you find "Pluses" when you made the screenshot?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on July 12, 2016, 02:26:23 pm
I had a poke around in there last night too. Almost everything of interest is in SparrowAPP.out.

Code: [Select]
$ strings SparrowAPP.out | grep -i -e limited\! -e pluses
+Pluses
-Pluses
Function Limited!
Parameter Limited!

Interesting:

Code: [Select]
$ strings SparrowApp.out | grep -i version
Version:
A newer software version detected.
An older software version detected.
The same software version detected.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 12, 2016, 05:15:44 pm
Ah, OK! I was just looking at the two files in the attached zip. So, SparrowAPP.out is the ticket. Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janekivi on July 12, 2016, 05:40:22 pm
If You take DS1000ZUpdate.GEL from DS1000Z(ARM)Update_00.04.03.02.03
and cut it to pieces with this script...
I don't win any prizes with it and this is good that we don't have script contest
here right now. But anybody can make better one, something good looking.

After that You must unpack
  guiPicData.hex
  guiResData.hex
  SparrowCalFile.hex
  SparrowAPP.out
This can be done if You strip 24 bytes from beginning.
So file have then packed file signature: 5D 00 00 80
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 12, 2016, 09:10:37 pm
Has anyone found a way to modify the small font (i.e. replace it with another one)?

I don't mind the font being small as I do that the number shapes are not unique enough to see the difference.  One pixel difference is NOT enough!  Compare the 5 to the 6 and 9.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on July 12, 2016, 10:46:49 pm
Quote
Has anyone found a way to modify the small font (i.e. replace it with another one)?

That is my primary interest too. Something like a traditional monospace Xterm font (LucidaTypewriter Medium 9 pt!) would make the instrument so much more comfortable to use.

It seems to be running MQX as its RTOS.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 13, 2016, 12:35:12 am
Quote
Has anyone found a way to modify the small font (i.e. replace it with another one)?

That is my primary interest too. Something like a traditional monospace Xterm font (LucidaTypewriter Medium 9 pt!) would make the instrument so much more comfortable to use.

It seems to be running MQX as its RTOS.

I've been using Verdana for a small 2" OLED display with no problems reading the numbers (5x7 font).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 13, 2016, 05:29:23 am
Has anyone found a way to modify the small font (i.e. replace it with another one)?

I may have missed this, but -- has anybody been able to change anything in the firmware, and then make the Rigol accept it for a firmware update? I would assume that there are checksums in the firmware files, which need to be revised if the firmware is changed anywhere. Is the position and the calculation scheme for the checksums known?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: janekivi on July 13, 2016, 02:58:17 pm

This can be done if You strip 24 bytes from beginning.
So file have then packed file signature: 5D 00 00 80
All files have 24 byte extra header where from first:
4 is file crc32
4 is some file type? Packed app has 03 00 00 00, packed gui stuff have 01, other have 00 00 00 00
4 is file lenght
4 is AA 55 55 AA (something spezial ?)
4 is Firmware version FB 7E 3D 00 -> 4030203
4 is buffer 00 00 00 00 (or for future use...?)

We can skip those headers if we cut GEL after them adding 24 to file start addresses.
Code: [Select]
h = int('280', 16) + 24     <----------- here
i = h + int('10A814', 16)
out = b[h:i]
open('sys/SparrowAPP.out', 'wb').write(out)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on July 13, 2016, 03:12:31 pm
May I suggest to move the firmware analysis to another thread ?
I'm interested too in it (I've also done some experiments before using binwalk)
and I'd like to help (time permitting).
but I guess it will be more easy to focus to the task in a dedicated thread :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 13, 2016, 03:41:03 pm
Has anyone found a way to modify the small font (i.e. replace it with another one)?

I may have missed this, but -- has anybody been able to change anything in the firmware, and then make the Rigol accept it for a firmware update? I would assume that there are checksums in the firmware files, which need to be revised if the firmware is changed anywhere. Is the position and the calculation scheme for the checksums known?

This would be the very first thing to try. Change some really obvious piece of text and get the scope to accept the change.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on July 13, 2016, 03:56:12 pm
Code: [Select]
This would be the very first thing to try. Change some really obvious piece of text and get the scope to accept the change.
The boot screen in logo.hex is a good candidate. It is an uncompressed 16-bit RGB565 800x480 bitmap. Gimp will open it just fine.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on July 13, 2016, 04:01:20 pm
May I suggest to move the firmware analysis to another thread ?
I'm interested too in it (I've also done some experiments before using binwalk)
and I'd like to help (time permitting).
but I guess it will be more easy to focus to the task in a dedicated thread :-)

+1  :-+

Suggesting janekivi to iniate the new thread, as this thread already growing near 100 pages ::) , also this thing will applicable to the whole DS1000Z series family, not only DS1054Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SimonD on July 19, 2016, 10:16:00 am
Hi,
I have install the latest version (with the latest versions of NI Drivers and Ultra Sigma) of Ultra Scope Software_00.01.01.06 (2016-05-26)
and i have a problem. There is no update in Horizontal parameters so finaly i can't see nothing (waveform) in the main screen. Connected under USB and LAN.
In a strange way, the FFT Window as you can see in the posted photos below, works fine!
If i go back to an older version everything is OK!
Have anyone else this issue ?
Thanks!

(http://i.imgur.com/DaaVNqL.png)
My scope.

(http://i.imgur.com/M2mGcR6.png)
The signal under test.

(http://i.imgur.com/tvSLrfl.png)
Not updated in the PC Screen.

(http://i.imgur.com/Cbd4nLq.png)
And the working FFT Window.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on July 19, 2016, 10:19:51 am
Altough I've posted this to the bugs/wishlist thread, good to have it here.

New firmware!!

http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)


Code: [Select]
[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.00.07  2016/07/19
     - Added the full-screen display in the XY mode
     - Modified the Trace data of average sample mode
     - Fixed the bug of system halted for wave persistance in the Zoom mode
     - Fixed bugs about Measure

Who dares now?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on July 19, 2016, 11:19:29 am
Hi,
I have install the latest version (with the latest versions of NI Drivers and Ultra Sigma) of Ultra Scope Software_00.01.01.06 (2016-05-26)
and i have a problem. There is no update in Horizontal parameters so finaly i can't see nothing (waveform) in the main screen. Connected under USB and LAN.
In a strange way, the FFT Window as you can see in the posted photos below, works fine!
If i go back to an older version everything is OK!
Have anyone else this issue ?
Thanks!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=241441;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 19, 2016, 11:30:48 am
Altough I've posted this to the bugs/wishlist thread, good to have it here.

New firmware!!

http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Who dares now?  :popcorn:

I tried it. I can't see much difference. It still says "pluses" in the measurements.

The XY mode is all-new though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on July 19, 2016, 11:37:34 am
I tried it. I can't see much difference. It still says "pluses" in the measurements.
What about the UI responsiveness? There were complaints regarding the previous version.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on July 19, 2016, 12:02:58 pm
I tried it. I can't see much difference. It still says "pluses" in the measurements.

With an assumption that you've "riglol-ed" yours, the new firmware does not affect that, right ?  >:D

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SimonD on July 19, 2016, 12:14:32 pm
Thanks for your quick answer ProBang2,
As you can see in the attached image the problem still remains ..
The fact is that does not update the time base ...
In your system, you can see it well ?

(http://i.imgur.com/M0yk396.png)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 19, 2016, 12:25:46 pm
I tried it. I can't see much difference. It still says "pluses" in the measurements.
What about the UI responsiveness? There were complaints regarding the previous version.

Seems the same to me.  :-//

I think the complaints were only when all 4 channels were on and you were doing math.

I guess somebody would have to put two of them side-by-side to show a difference.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 19, 2016, 12:30:44 pm
I tried it. I can't see much difference. It still says "pluses" in the measurements.

With an assumption that you've "riglol-ed" yours, the new firmware does not affect that, right ?  >:D

No, why would it?  :-//


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on July 19, 2016, 01:02:06 pm
RMS measurement error on other channel(s) still present...  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wirehead on July 19, 2016, 01:27:17 pm
Altough I've posted this to the bugs/wishlist thread, good to have it here.

New firmware!!

http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Who dares now?  :popcorn:

I tried it. I can't see much difference. It still says "pluses" in the measurements.

The XY mode is all-new though.

Care to share a screenshot of the changes in X-Y?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 19, 2016, 01:41:28 pm
Altough I've posted this to the bugs/wishlist thread, good to have it here.

New firmware!!

http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)


Code: [Select]
[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.00.07  2016/07/19
     - Added the full-screen display in the XY mode
     - Modified the Trace data of average sample mode
     - Fixed the bug of system halted for wave persistance in the Zoom mode
     - Fixed bugs about Measure

Who dares now?  :popcorn:

(http://www.memegasms.com/media/created/vhyfxm.jpg)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 19, 2016, 01:45:10 pm
RMS measurement error on other channel(s) still present...  :palm:

(https://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/39659411.jpg).

Hah. I'll wait a few days to see what's what, but hopefully this will give the guys who are disassembling the firmware updates some nice data to work differentially on.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 19, 2016, 01:47:04 pm
The XY mode is all-new.
Care to share a screenshot of the changes in X-Y?

There's two display modes. One is "split" which shows the X and Y traces at the top of the screen with X/Y plot below that.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=241494;image)

The other is fullscreen X/Y.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=241496;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 19, 2016, 05:06:50 pm
The new XY is neat. But failing to address even the simplest of bugs (i.e., misspelled labels) is :palm: :palm:.

No matter. Soon, we'll start fixing things ourselves. >:D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 19, 2016, 05:56:40 pm
The new XY is neat. But failing to address even the simplest of bugs (i.e., misspelled labels) is :palm: :palm:.

No matter. Soon, we'll start fixing things ourselves. >:D

Does anyone know if the firmware can be simulated? Like would it be possible to run the firmware in an emulator?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 19, 2016, 06:25:06 pm
Jesus christ. What the hell have they been working at? :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 19, 2016, 06:26:38 pm
Does anyone know if the firmware can be simulated? Like would it be possible to run the firmware in an emulator?

Not that I'm aware of, but that would be nice for verifying "fixed" firmware before loading.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 19, 2016, 06:28:34 pm
Jesus christ. What the hell have they been working at? :palm:

Ack! Someone said the "W" word!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 19, 2016, 06:30:53 pm
Now all my faith is in the custom hacked firmware
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: urill on July 20, 2016, 03:16:09 am
I upgraded to the new firmware. Now all LEDs on my scope stay on after power-on self test. I am doomed...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wirehead on July 20, 2016, 05:27:43 am
The XY mode is all-new.
Care to share a screenshot of the changes in X-Y?

There's two display modes. One is "split" which shows the X and Y traces at the top of the screen with X/Y plot below that.

Flashed it straight away. That is MUCH better than the split-window one. Also, they seem to have gotten rid of a bug in that mode. I had the Y-channel configured as "mA"; and when using the "fine" controls, it would adjust the displayed scale "fine" but the actual measured data, would jump with the "coarse" scale, under some conditions. That seems to be gone  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jusaca on July 20, 2016, 08:50:29 am
I did not see any capability to trigger on a given pulse length (e.g. min. 340µs or whatever). Is it hidden somewhere or is that not possible with this scope?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on July 20, 2016, 09:07:32 am
I did not see any capability to trigger on a given pulse length (e.g. min. 340µs or whatever). Is it hidden somewhere or is that not possible with this scope?

Pulse Trigger or Duration Trigger. See pag. 82 or 91 (may be different for newer manuals) of the User Guide :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 20, 2016, 09:25:35 am
I may be wrong but I seem to remember Pluses was also in the menu and if so that was fixed. The labels indeed say Pluses.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 20, 2016, 09:39:12 am
On this forum there is a detailed bug list maintained for the Rigol DS1054Z.

Why does Rigol America not follow and pick up this bug list, and coordinate accordingly with their Chinese HQ?

They could easily go through the list, prioritize and filter it, before they pass over to the Chinese HQ.

This process would make sure that the showstoppers and major bugs are fixed first. Of course there should be a process in place to eventually fix the low priority bugs as well. That can easily be done by running different "swim lanes" in the development department. Short-term, Mid-term and long-term bug fixes are done in the different lanes.

Right now, some of the bugs that are reported, even major bugs might not even be known to Rigol in China.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jusaca on July 20, 2016, 10:55:37 am
@Gabri74
Oh, you are right. I just watched Daves Video and couldn't see it there.
Should have had a look at the manual before^^
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2016, 10:58:25 am
I may be wrong but I seem to remember Pluses was also in the menu and if so that was fixed. The labels indeed say Pluses.

Does not parse.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: urill on July 21, 2016, 02:19:10 am
Contacted Rigol Chinese HQ about the malfunctioning front panel LED after upgrading. I have to send the scope back for repair.

I will avoid Rigol in the future...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 21, 2016, 02:45:39 am
I may be wrong but I seem to remember Pluses was also in the menu and if so that was fixed. The labels indeed say Pluses.

No, the Horizontal Menu +Pulses and -Pulses items are correctly spelled in the 00.04.03.02.03 firmware. Just the measurement labels have the Pluses misprint.

So this is _not_ fixed in the new firmware?

I hope that nobody else has had the "LED malfunction" reported by urill. That is very scary.

While I like the idea of the fullscreen x-y display, I'd still like to know if some of the other bugs have been fixed before I update my firmware. The one I'm most interested in is the Measurements Fail bug that causes _all_ measurements to stop updating after a random time interval when Math is in use.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 21, 2016, 02:52:33 am
I tried it. I can't see much difference. It still says "pluses" in the measurements.
What about the UI responsiveness? There were complaints regarding the previous version.

Seems the same to me.  :-//

I think the complaints were only when all 4 channels were on and you were doing math.

I guess somebody would have to put two of them side-by-side to show a difference.

If I recall correctly, you said you did not install the 00.04.03.02.03 firmware that caused the big slowdown of the UI response and which introduced the Pluses typo and some other bugs. No, it did not happen _only_ when 4 channels+math were in use.

And I did in fact have two units for side-by-side testing for about 3 days, back when RigolUSA sent me a replacement for the scope that froze when persistence and zoom were selected.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 21, 2016, 02:56:34 am
Contacted Rigol Chinese HQ about the malfunctioning front panel LED after upgrading. I have to send the scope back for repair.

I will avoid Rigol in the future...

Why didn't you contact RigolUSA?

http://www.rigolna.com/ (http://www.rigolna.com/)
https://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/ (https://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/)

RIGOL Technologies Inc.

    10200 SW Allen Blvd., Suite C
    Beaverton, OR 97005
    Email Us
    Phone: 877-4-RIGOL-1
    Fax: 877-4-RIGOL-1

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: urill on July 21, 2016, 03:32:54 am
Contacted Rigol Chinese HQ about the malfunctioning front panel LED after upgrading. I have to send the scope back for repair.

I will avoid Rigol in the future...

Why didn't you contact RigolUSA?

http://www.rigolna.com/ (http://www.rigolna.com/)
https://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/ (https://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/)

RIGOL Technologies Inc.

    10200 SW Allen Blvd., Suite C
    Beaverton, OR 97005
    Email Us
    Phone: 877-4-RIGOL-1
    Fax: 877-4-RIGOL-1

I thought contacting the Rigol China HQ would be more efficient to make them aware of the bug. They believe the LED problem is not a bug in their firmware but just random error in flashing the firmware. (No checksum?) My next step will be contacting Rigol USA for repair.

I also asked about how to effectively report a bug. They said anything reported to Rigol USA will be reported to China HQ. When I asked why many reported bugs did not get fixed, they said probably the reporter did not follow up.

I reported the "Pluses" label bug directly to their China HQ. Let's see if it will be fixed in next update.


For the problem, all the LED lights up at start up, and they do not respond to any button press. 1-10 minutes later some LED randomly turn off, but they still don't respond to controls. Everything else work fine. Yes I tried pressing the 5th dark button on the left to reset the scope, reflashing the same version of firmware, unhack the options, and unplug and plug in again.

Software version: 00.04.04.00.07
Board version: 0.1.1
Boot version: 0.0.1.4
Firmware version:0.2.3.11
CPLD version: 1.1

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 21, 2016, 03:54:08 am
I see, thanks for the detailed reply.

When you tried re-flashing, did you use the same copy of the firmware you used initially? Have you tried re-downloading, re-extracting and using a fresh copy of the firmware?

It's worth a shot.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: urill on July 21, 2016, 05:40:12 am
I see, thanks for the detailed reply.

When you tried re-flashing, did you use the same copy of the firmware you used initially? Have you tried re-downloading, re-extracting and using a fresh copy of the firmware?

It's worth a shot.

I tried redownloading the firmware. It does not fix the problem.

People with successful upgrade, do you have the same system info as mine?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 21, 2016, 06:23:26 am
Mine says:

Software Version 00.04.04.00.07
Board Version 0.1.1
Boot Version 0.0.1.2
Firmware Version 0.2.3.11
CPLD Version 1.1
Build Date Jun 16 2016 10:25:12|0 0:2/6 14:10
StartUp Criter 126
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 21, 2016, 06:41:01 am
Most likely there are several flash memories in the oscilloscope, such as the main flash memory to hold the boot image for the oscilloscope (external flash memory in separate chips), and one or more smaller internal flash memories to hold dedicated configuration settings (internal flash memory in a microcontroller chip or a dedicated controller chip, such as a front panel controller, an Ethernet controller, etc.)

Typically a Resident Boot Loader resides in the OTP (One-Time Programmable) area of the flash memory, that will never be changed. The only task of the RBL at boot time is to check if the firmware needs to be updated, and if not, it will just transfer ownership to the Dynamic Boot Loader in the flash memory. If the firmware needs to be updated, it updates the DBL in the flash memory.

Good firmware implementations work with double copies of the DBL, where a pointer either points to the new DBL or the old DBL. Only after the updated firmware boots successfully, the pointer will be changed to the new DBL for good. This guarantees that there will always be a working DBL in the flash memory, and that the boot sequence will not get stuck, because of an active selected DBL that is corrupt.

The firmware upgrade would not only update the main flash memory in the external flash memory chips, but also the smaller internal flash memories in a microcontroller chip or a dedicated controller chip.
Maybe one of the smaller internal flash memories got corrupted during the firmware update.

It might be possible to fix that again, by performing another firmware upgrade, but one has to make sure that you force the flash memory update for the internal flash memory as well. As these don't change that often, it is probably not easy to find one that has a different version, which would force the update.

Maybe you have to look for a very old firmware update, to make sure it has a different flash memory version for the internal flash memory of a microcontroller chip or a dedicated controller chip.

If you try again with the same firmware upgrade, or with a recent firmware upgrade, it will probably not be effective at all, as it would not have an effect on the internal flash memory.

While you can force the firmware update on the main flash memory anyhow, even if the firmware version is the same, most likely you can't on the internal flash memory. There you can only force the firmware update by selecting one that has a different firmware version. Therefore I suggest to use a very old firmware upgrade, to increase your chances that the firmware version of the internal flash memory is different =)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 21, 2016, 08:21:04 am
That sounds reasonable... but unfortunately the DS1054z does not seem to allow "downgrading" or loading an earlier firmware version than what is in the scope.

This is one of Rigol's design choices that seems to be utterly nuts.

If anyone knows how to load an earlier firmware version than the one that is running (or has failed to run) on the scope, please PLEASE publish the method.

The oldest firmware I have in my archives is 00.04.00.00.00. Note that there are two files in there, in directories called "Sparrow(ARM)update_00.04.00.00.00" and "Sparrow(Boot)update_00.04.00.00.00". Both directories contain a .GEL file with the same usual name "DS1000ZUpdate.GEL" but with different file sizes.

Unfortunately it is too large (2 MB) to attach to this post.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 21, 2016, 09:19:31 am
For the problem, all the LED lights up at start up, and they do not respond to any button press. 1-10 minutes later some LED randomly turn off, but they still don't respond to controls. Everything else work fine. Yes I tried pressing the 5th dark button on the left to reset the scope, reflashing the same version of firmware, unhack the options, and unplug and plug in again.

It's hard to see how a firmware upgrade could cause that.

It makes no sense at all - sounds more like a hardware problem.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 21, 2016, 09:28:42 am
It could be very well related to the firmware. See my other posting!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 21, 2016, 11:49:21 am
People are busy working on the firmware files in another thread.

One thing they could try is hacking the version number in old GEL files so the 'scope thinks its newer.

This would let you install old versions.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 21, 2016, 12:22:56 pm
While I like the idea of the fullscreen x-y display, I'd still like to know if some of the other bugs have been fixed before I update my firmware. The one I'm most interested in is the Measurements Fail bug that causes _all_ measurements to stop updating after a random time interval when Math is in use.

I tried to recreate the bug and stopped the test when the cnt. was over 37k (needed the scope for something else). Had 4 measurements (with statistics), 4 channels on as well as math doing AxB.

Sorry I couldn't recreate it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on July 22, 2016, 07:43:23 pm
I updated the MSO1074z with the new Firmware version 00.04.04.00.07.
No problems whatsoever.  :-+

Cheers
hammy
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 23, 2016, 10:15:26 am
While I like the idea of the fullscreen x-y display, I'd still like to know if some of the other bugs have been fixed before I update my firmware. The one I'm most interested in is the Measurements Fail bug that causes _all_ measurements to stop updating after a random time interval when Math is in use.
I tried to recreate the bug and stopped the test when the cnt. was over 37k (needed the scope for something else). Had 4 measurements (with statistics), 4 channels on as well as math doing AxB.

Did your 'scope freeze before?

Not all 'scopes have this problem (mine don't).

Is there anybody out there who has the 'freezing' bug who's tried the new firmware?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 23, 2016, 10:38:37 am
No - didn't try it prior to the upgrade. I rarely do 4 measurements when 4 channels are on. Let alone with math.

But when I read about the bug it intrigued me but I fell short of being able to reproduce it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 23, 2016, 12:05:55 pm
No - didn't try it prior to the upgrade. I rarely do 4 measurements when 4 channels are on. Let alone with math.

But when I read about the bug it intrigued me but I fell short of being able to reproduce it.

I wonder where all the Rigol-bashers went to . They're surprisingly absent in the last few days.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 23, 2016, 12:24:41 pm
Is there anybody out there who has the 'freezing' bug who's tried the new firmware?
No and i don't really intend to for a lot of time. If something can be understood from the chinglish in the changelog nothing of substance was fixed or even addressed.

To be frank i stopped caring when i read that they didn't even fix the Pluses. I'll keep it until i will have the funds for a GWI-2000A/E (or the newest siglent 2 chan mso) then sell the 1054 for some penny and move on.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 23, 2016, 12:26:34 pm
I wonder where all the Rigol-bashers went to . They're surprisingly absent in the last few days.  :popcorn:
They're all waiting to see if the new FW is ay good.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 23, 2016, 12:30:25 pm
One has to read forums carefully (just like review sites). I, for one, cannot fault owners that run into bugs (albeit I will state that everything I ever owned had bugs and workarounds). Also, I cannot take seriously the opinions of non owners - be it hearsay or wishful thinking.

For me - as a household scope the Rigol is really nice.

It is not the epitome of efficiency - taking 30 secs to save a JPG is indeed annoying, as is the tendency of the LXI to get stuck sometimes (requiring a reboot) - but as a home scope for a hobby it is really really nice.

It is light years ahead of the Fluke Scopemeter I also have with the exception that I will not probe an air conditioner inverter with the Rigol or a mains based motor speed control. But since the Rigol I stopped using the fluke for anything other than power.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 23, 2016, 12:43:44 pm
To be frank i stopped caring when i read that they didn't even fix the Pluses. I'll keep it until i will have the funds for a GWI-2000A/E (or the newest siglent 2 chan mso) then sell the 1054 for some penny and move on.

Hopefully the 2000A/E will satisfy you.

I'll admit to being a wee bit perplexed: It is very postmodern to replace a scope because of spelling and then on top of that with another chinglish scope.

Admittedly In the old days US (or British) made scopes would not generally have spelling issues. Aren't those days long gone?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 23, 2016, 01:52:13 pm
I hope you understand that i see the failure to solve the most basic thing after many months as a sign of them really not giving two shits
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 23, 2016, 02:30:40 pm
I hope you understand that i see the failure to solve the most basic thing after many months as a sign of them really not giving two shits

You are applying American standards to people who can't spell or talk in English. Having spent 15 years in the states and 30 in Israel managing product development I can attest just how hard it is to convince Israelis (and Vietnamese and Chinese) of the importance of good spelling and grammar.

It is not that they don't give a s*** - it is a disposition of the developer which may think they have resolved it and needs someone to hand walk them to where the error occurs (and for them it looks okay even after you point it to them - remember a spellchecker will not help them here). Also - as engineers, this being considered as less important to the measurement / operational bugs (or at least less interesting to fix).

For some reason, Germans and most Japanese teams understand this point. Not sure why.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 23, 2016, 05:46:55 pm
Yes. I'll try to explain why i feel this way.
Aside for a love of languages, the pluses bug came only with the beforelast update.. god knows why.

It was reported with many other things by many people and yet it was not addressed... something as simple as editing the english localization text file. If they can't be trusted with such a task how can i trust them to fix more serious bugs?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 23, 2016, 06:15:29 pm
As I wondered before ... where is Rigol America on this forum?

Is nobody from Rigol America following up overall quality processes?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 23, 2016, 06:19:50 pm
To me, the pulses/pluses update is nearly meaningless. I know what they mean. I don't use an oscilloscope for a language lesson. I want measurements.

So the phantom CH2-4 Vrms bug is the kind of thing that irks me. I don't have enough money or accurate enough secondary equipment to know if some values are wrong, or have high statistical (or in this case, systematic) error. I mean, I know that there shouldn't be a reading without a probe in, but once you get into the realm of plausibility, I will have to accept the results the scope gives me.

I am hopeful that this community will make progress unpacking/decoding the firmware and we'll being to take more control over it ourselves.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 23, 2016, 06:32:49 pm
Hi everyone. Sorry for copy/paste...

For future reference:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade-*is*-possible-and-here-is-how/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade-)

As seen on above discussion reply #23 there is nothing bad happening when firmware ver. upgraded or downgraded.

But there is a catch... bootloader version!!!

Why they blocked firmware downgrade from later ver. bootloaders is beyond my imagination. :--

Again, i think most important! feature for this kind of devices is ability to freely upgrade or downgrade firmware or bootloader revisions.

This scope is unreliable and very frustrating to use for me since 4.3.2.3 ver. firmware.

And RMS bug is not that simple...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpgEC9ghXgE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpgEC9ghXgE)

Please if you did not watch it before , take a closer look

It affects FTT, other channels RMS measurements, Auto Cursor Quick Trace, scope performance and many other shit i am not aware of. I think there is some kind of constant background calculation or error correction scheme going on and because of it scope very slow, intensity grading performance  degraded (to me anyway).

Sorry for my bad english... :-/O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 23, 2016, 07:02:24 pm
With all respect, but why did you not put any audio on the YouTube video?

This must be the first and only muted video on the entire YouTube video database besides some old Laurel & Hardy movies. Hope that gives you an idea about the popularity of your YouTube video.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 23, 2016, 11:44:29 pm
This scope is unreliable and very frustrating to use for me since 4.3.2.3 ver. firmware.

And RMS bug is not that simple...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpgEC9ghXgE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpgEC9ghXgE)

Please if you did not watch it before , take a closer look

Again, this video shows the Vrms problem in the latest firmware CONFUSED by a boy who has NO IDEA how to operate his scope!!!  He is using regular coax cable but keeps changing the Probe setting from the 1X setting it should be.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MT on July 24, 2016, 12:46:09 am
Now all my faith is in the custom hacked firmware
What?!?! is there a custom hacked firmware for 1054Z?!.. Where?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 24, 2016, 01:16:31 am
Still hacking. Not completely hacked, yet. You can follow along in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsxxxx-gel-firmware-file-format/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsxxxx-gel-firmware-file-format/)

They're making great progress. So far, you can change the boot screen image, the logo in the upper-left during run time, and the firmware version number.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 24, 2016, 03:30:54 am
Again, this video shows the Vrms problem in the latest firmware CONFUSED by a boy who has NO IDEA how to operate his scope!!!  He is using regular coax cable but keeps changing the Probe setting from the 1X setting it should be.

Can't you see youtube annotations/subtitles?... :(
If you cannot, please try watch my video directly on youtube or try palemoon browser (harmless firefox custom browser). And please check on youtube settings annotations on.

First, they are not bnc cables, they are 1x/10x 250Mhz probes.

And RMS issue is something like:

Say you made an amplifier ie. 100x gain and want to measure input vs. output RMS value with rough distortion check with rigols shitty FFT.

If you use single channel for only RMS measurement everything is fine, but FFT level is wrong because it's also showing RMS level! (again can't you see youtube annotations?).

Then you want to see RMS values, input on ch1 and output on ch2 (ie. ch1 probe set  1x and ch2 set 10x).

This leaked RMS error voltage seen on ch2 (even input grounded!!! or nothing connected!!!) = ch1's leaked value + someshit x ch2 probe compensation settings (regardless input on ch2).

like ch1 (at 1x) RMS =1V, ch2 (at 10x) RMS leaked let's say =10.5V (patience there is nothing connected on ch2 yet and flat line on screen :rant:), when our imaginary amp output is connected on ch2 now RMS =110.5V!!!

If you are using 100x probe on ch2 error leaked value you gonna see is 100x!!!

Let's set some cursor on ch2 RMS value, cursor/settings/auto/quick2, even nothing connected cursor jumps over on ch1's  signal and horizontal settings affect this cursor position.

Sorry it is not finished yet... If you dare to open other channels same time for RMS measurement, oh boy :-BROKE .

For clear the things i am not accusing anyone, i like very much rigol devices (i have ds5022m,ds1052e,ds1054z,ds2000a and wens 820 portable scope), i am not after precision or accuracy with 8bit adc, what i am saying is this device under warranty and our local rigol dealer does not give a sht. besides something very bad happened at rigol software side since last year. Becasue they are not that bad in my opinion, and i'm wondering what happened their support and development line.

Last, i know how to use a scope markF....

No hard feelings, i wish you well and sorry for long post with my crappy english. :(

 

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 24, 2016, 09:13:47 am
So the phantom CH2-4 Vrms bug is the kind of thing that irks me. ...  I mean, I know that there shouldn't be a reading without a probe in...

Not true. There can be all sorts of radio noise around.

So long as the reading on a connected channel is OK then I say it's nothing to worry about. The DS1000Z doesn't have connectors that can detect whether or not a probe is connected. Just switch those channels off, problem solved.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 24, 2016, 12:33:37 pm
Would you at least concede that two channels connected to the exact same signal should report the same RMS value for that signal?

Both CH1 and CH2 connected to the probe calibrator output:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on July 24, 2016, 12:42:23 pm
Would you at least concede that two channels connected to the exact same signal should report the same RMS value for that signal?

Both CH1 and CH2 connected to the probe calibrator output:
What happens when you swap the trigger to the other channel?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 24, 2016, 01:41:54 pm
Even the Per Vrms (RMS per period) has over a 5% difference between RMS readings.

Of the 4 channels some are closer than others.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 24, 2016, 01:49:18 pm
Vrms changes a lot more tha Per Vrms. I never understood what VRMS was without cursors. What segment of the trace does it really include in calculation? Obviously between Ch1 and Ch2 it isn't the same segment...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 24, 2016, 03:44:58 pm
Would you at least concede that two channels connected to the exact same signal should report the same RMS value for that signal?

Both CH1 and CH2 connected to the probe calibrator output:
What happens when you swap the trigger to the other channel?

This.   :popcorn:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 24, 2016, 04:27:25 pm
Would you at least concede that two channels connected to the exact same signal should report the same RMS value for that signal?

Both CH1 and CH2 connected to the probe calibrator output:
What happens when you swap the trigger to the other channel?

This.   :popcorn:

This indeed. One would expect the scope to measure RMS for both traces in an identical window. Obviously it doesn't and neither does it mark where the calculation window for each channel actually occurs. Which makes comparing two signals using Vrms quite dicey. I guess this is as designed but may get noobs in trouble.

Quite unlike the predictable PerVrms.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 24, 2016, 09:53:58 pm
To me, the pulses/pluses update is nearly meaningless. I know what they mean. I don't use an oscilloscope for a language lesson. I want measurements.

So the phantom CH2-4 Vrms bug is the kind of thing that irks me. I don't have enough money or accurate enough secondary equipment to know if some values are wrong, or have high statistical (or in this case, systematic) error. I mean, I know that there shouldn't be a reading without a probe in, but once you get into the realm of plausibility, I will have to accept the results the scope gives me.

I am hopeful that this community will make progress unpacking/decoding the firmware and we'll being to take more control over it ourselves.



Again, it's not THAT important but it is (to me) a sign that they are not taking things seriously, i can understand a spelling error, nobody's perfect, i can't understand not solving it because it is really so simple to fix.. and they are still not fixing or rather "fixing" other bugs and nuisances 'on the side'
so, i can't trust them just as i always resort to triple check the signal waveform with an old tek greenie i know i can give my trust to.
but i told myself i wouldn't argue anymore about this subject. i just want to sell this scope in the moment i can, as i stopped hoping for them to really fix anything
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 25, 2016, 02:21:49 am
Again, it's not THAT important but it is (to me) a sign that they are not taking things seriously, i can understand a spelling error, nobody's perfect, i can't understand not solving it because it is really so simple to fix.. and they are still not fixing or rather "fixing" other bugs and nuisances 'on the side'
so, i can't trust them...

+1. This is the issue exactly, and is not brand-specific. It's a matter of being able to have a reasonable amount of trust in the equipment. The manufacturer's failure to address little things makes you wonder what more important problems are being overlooked or ignored.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 25, 2016, 04:11:06 am
Again, it's not THAT important but it is (to me) a sign that they are not taking things seriously, i can understand a spelling error, nobody's perfect, i can't understand not solving it because it is really so simple to fix.. and they are still not fixing or rather "fixing" other bugs and nuisances 'on the side'
so, i can't trust them...

+1. This is the issue exactly, and is not brand-specific. It's a matter of being able to have a reasonable amount of trust in the equipment. The manufacturer's failure to address little things makes you wonder what more important problems are being overlooked or ignored.

I do fully appreciate that aspect of the argument against Rigol in this case. (And, as you say, other manufacturers.) However, I have some trust in the ability of Chinese engineers (and laypeople) to add, subtract, multiply, and divide -- and do these things correctly. Thus, I would be perfectly happy to put up with many more spelling errors in the firmware if it meant that all of the calculation, MATH, and measurement errors were gone. That is the way to enhance my trust in the device.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 25, 2016, 05:47:30 am
Certainly. And, hopefully, the calc, measurement, etc. errors have been taken care of with this update. I'm still observing the reports as they come in, since things haven't always gotten better with firmware updates.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 25, 2016, 06:02:43 am
I'm waiting for test reports too. I'd like to know about two specific bugs: The Measurements Fail bug and the 500 ns/div Math horizontal error bug.

Measurements Fail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6kFfy8sW68 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6kFfy8sW68)

Math horizontal error at 500 ns/div, see attached screenshot:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 25, 2016, 06:11:34 am
Would you at least concede that two channels connected to the exact same signal should report the same RMS value for that signal?

Both CH1 and CH2 connected to the probe calibrator output:
What happens when you swap the trigger to the other channel?

This.   :popcorn:

This:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 25, 2016, 07:12:11 am
* audience hold their breaths *
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on July 25, 2016, 08:48:16 am
I have upgraded my scope to the latest 2016 f/w and so far I can confirm that the 'lockups' appear to be fixed.  The  Maths offset  using *4017  set up but with a 1Mhz square wave shows no delay offset for A+B, AxB etc.  Also I have been unable to reproduce the Stats/Pluses' count lockup despite running for a number of hours.  I haven't noticed any slowing of response to controls in comparison with the previous build but one does adapt quickly and forget easily! 

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 08:53:40 am
What happens when you swap the trigger to the other channel?
This.   :popcorn:
This:

Exactly as I suspected - nothing happens!.

OTOH the horizontal timebase does make a big difference. Less waves on screen gives less accuracy. More waves on screen gives more accuracy.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243190;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243192;image)

This is also to be expected - we know Rigols work from "on-screen" data.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 09:02:10 am
Scrolling the data left/right also gives different values (again, no real surprises...)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243206;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243204;image)

Even one pixel can make a difference.

Channel 2 does seem to be consistently higher than channel 1 though, even if you swap the probes around.

I wonder if that's an individual 'scope thing or if it's the same on everybody's 'scope. I guess we need more people to try it.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 09:35:42 am
Turning on AC coupling gives completely different numbers.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243210;image)

nb. The correct RMS for a 3V square wave should be 2.12V  (3/sqrt(2))

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 09:45:57 am
At the end of the day though: You get a few waves on screen and it's pretty close to 2.12.

The periodic RMS seems more accurate. This makes sense (it will look for a complete wave so it's less dependent on horizontal scroll position).

Anything else is interesting...  but nitpicking. Oscilloscopes are for looking at the shapes of things, not precise voltage measurements. Between 8-bit DACs and background noise you're never going to achieve more than about 10% accuracy.

Calculating from on-screen data is probably a DS100Z hardware limitation, nothing to be done. What RMS values do other 'scopes give? How does scrolling around affect them when there's not much on screen to work with?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243212;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 09:56:08 am
Looking at my screenshots: There seems to be more noise at the top of the yellow trace and more noise at the bottom of the blue trace. I wonder if that's what's skewing the numbers and making them bigger on channel 2.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on July 25, 2016, 10:03:36 am
The periodic RMS seems more accurate. This makes sense (it will look for a complete wave so it's less dependent on horizontal scroll position).

Anything else is interesting...  but nitpicking. Oscilloscopes are for looking at the shapes of things, not precise voltage measurements. Between 8-bit DACs and background noise you're never going to achieve more than about 10% accuracy.
So almost 50% higher RMS reading on second channel on your own screenshot is nitpicking? Someone (who that might be?) a while ago told that for some guys these are bad news about new firmware coming out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 10:08:07 am
So almost 50% higher RMS reading on second channel on your own screenshot is nitpicking?

It's not 50% when you get a reasonable number of pulses on screen

It's never 50% on the "Per.VRMS" reading.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on July 25, 2016, 10:10:12 am
So almost 50% higher RMS reading on second channel on your own screenshot is nitpicking?

It's not 50% when you get a reasonable number of pulses on screen

It's never 50% on the "Per.VRMS" reading.
Does it tell you how many pulses are reasonable enough so you can trust it?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 10:17:57 am
So almost 50% higher RMS reading on second channel on your own screenshot is nitpicking?

It's not 50% when you get a reasonable number of pulses on screen

It's never 50% on the "Per.VRMS" reading.
Does it tell you how many pulses are reasonable enough so you can trust it?

Reminds me of EE101 lab. First year in undergrad the lab supervisor made sure we would never trust a scope (or any other T&M) ever again. Simply spoken - until you understand exactly what the scope does everything it shows is meaningless. Everything. (This was mid 80's so this was Tek and HP scope days - none of this Rigol stuff).

In this specific instance I would assume an easy way to know if your RMS reading has stabilized is to add more cycles (change Timebase). At some point the VRMS would stabilize.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 10:23:07 am
Does it tell you how many pulses are reasonable enough so you can trust it?

No, but.... ummm... I can just twist the knob so there's loads of them on screen.  :-//

(or use the Per.VRMS mode - it's better!)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 10:31:18 am
Reminds me of EE101 lab. First year in undergrad the lab supervisor made sure we would never trust a scope (or any other T&M) ever again. Simply spoken - until you understand exactly what the scope does everything it shows is meaningless. Everything. (This was mid 80's so this was Tek and HP scope days - none of this Rigol stuff).

Yep. We've just learned something new about how to use oscilloscopes properly.

(I assume this problem applies to other 'scopes as well - does anybody have a GoodWill DS1000B to try the same test...)

In this specific instance I would assume an easy way to know if your RMS reading has stabilized is to add more cycles (change Timebase). At some point the VRMS would stabilize.

It's not rocket science.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 10:35:48 am
Again, it's not THAT important but it is (to me) a sign that they are not taking things seriously, i can understand a spelling error, nobody's perfect, i can't understand not solving it because it is really so simple to fix.. and they are still not fixing or rather "fixing" other bugs and nuisances 'on the side'
so, i can't trust them...

+1. This is the issue exactly, and is not brand-specific. It's a matter of being able to have a reasonable amount of trust in the equipment. The manufacturer's failure to address little things makes you wonder what more important problems are being overlooked or ignored.

This sub-discussion about a spelling error is actually very good lesson to show non-English speakers about how the English speaking market treats spelling errors.
In countries where a spelling bee is a cultural icon, spelling is one of the fundamentals of trust. This lack of trust will continue to contaminate whatever Rigol is or will be doing right - until they resolve it.

The Japanese were able to resolve these issues only after creating USA marketing organizations that took over much of product management and the entirety of product marketing. Perhaps that is the next step in the evolution of Chinese T&M industry?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on July 25, 2016, 10:36:43 am
So almost 50% higher RMS reading on second channel on your own screenshot is nitpicking?

It's not 50% when you get a reasonable number of pulses on screen

It's never 50% on the "Per.VRMS" reading.
Does it tell you how many pulses are reasonable enough so you can trust it?

Reminds me of EE101 lab. First year in undergrad the lab supervisor made sure we would never trust a scope (or any other T&M) ever again. Simply spoken - until you understand exactly what the scope does everything it shows is meaningless. Everything.
And in this case it IS meaningless, because:
Quote
until you understand exactly what the scope does everything it shows is meaningless.
And you certainly don't know the mechanism how it gets it's RMS reading wrong.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 10:44:01 am
And you certainly don't know the mechanism how it gets it's RMS reading wrong.

I don't know how quantum physics works but I managed to be born and stay alive long enough to type this message.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 10:45:28 am
So almost 50% higher RMS reading on second channel on your own screenshot is nitpicking?

It's not 50% when you get a reasonable number of pulses on screen

It's never 50% on the "Per.VRMS" reading.
Does it tell you how many pulses are reasonable enough so you can trust it?

Reminds me of EE101 lab. First year in undergrad the lab supervisor made sure we would never trust a scope (or any other T&M) ever again. Simply spoken - until you understand exactly what the scope does everything it shows is meaningless. Everything.
And in this case it IS meaningless, because:
Quote
until you understand exactly what the scope does everything it shows is meaningless.
And you certainly don't know the mechanism how it gets it's RMS reading wrong.

Actually you do - Fungus fully screen-shot the process he used to characterize the scopes' operation and show how the edges of the displayed traces affected the measurement. Now he knows when to use RMS - a long sample of a random audio input for example or PerRMS - when he wants to measure the RMS value of a 1 cycle of a repetitive signal.

Fungus did a swell job on this. Hats off to him!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on July 25, 2016, 10:57:07 am
Actually you do - Fungus fully screen-shot the process he used to characterize the scopes' operation and show how the edges of the displayed traces affected the measurement. Now he knows when to use RMS - a long sample of a random audio input for example or PerRMS - when he wants to measure the RMS value of a 1 cycle of a repetitive signal.
No you don't. All he did is measured only one particular signal at different timebases. It is as far as the moon from being characterized. What happens if there is sine wave, triangle and what else at different amplitudes and frequencies?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 25, 2016, 11:12:10 am
This sub-discussion about a spelling error is actually very good lesson to show non-English speakers about how the English speaking market treats spelling errors.
In countries where a spelling bee is a cultural icon, spelling is one of the fundamentals of trust. This lack of trust will continue to contaminate whatever Rigol is or will be doing right - until they resolve it.

I'm italian :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 11:14:31 am
Actually you do - Fungus fully screen-shot the process he used to characterize the scopes' operation and show how the edges of the displayed traces affected the measurement. Now he knows when to use RMS - a long sample of a random audio input for example or PerRMS - when he wants to measure the RMS value of a 1 cycle of a repetitive signal.
No you don't. All he did is measured only one particular signal at different timebases. It is as far as the moon from being characterized. What happens if there is sine wave, triangle and what else at different amplitudes and frequencies?

If the edges are so important then you characterize it specifically for your use case (if you depend on the measurement for anything important).

Do you really expect to hook up anything and just trust it? We never trusted Fluke nor Tektronix nor HP (those were the only things we had in the Navy lab), nor Anritsu or HP or Tabor (in the university lab) or even the expensive stuff like Bruel & Kjaer. Why would you trust a Rigol any more than that???
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on July 25, 2016, 11:28:18 am
Do you really expect to hook up anything and just trust it? We never trusted Fluke nor Tektronix nor HP (those were the only things we had in the Navy lab), nor Anritsu or HP or Tabor (in the university lab) or even the expensive stuff like Bruel & Kjaer. Why would you trust a Rigol any more than that???
Do you expect anyone with sane mind to use broken feature for anything even remotely serious, by characterizing amount of it's brokenness? (unless you are on a Mars and this is you're only scope). What is broken, must be fixed and not considered small nuisance that probably can be characterized.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 11:32:51 am
This sub-discussion about a spelling error is actually very good lesson to show non-English speakers about how the English speaking market treats spelling errors.
In countries where a spelling bee is a cultural icon, spelling is one of the fundamentals of trust. This lack of trust will continue to contaminate whatever Rigol is or will be doing right - until they resolve it.

I'm italian :)

LOL. I am Israeli and also have the spelling bug - I can spot an error in the newspaper on the floor. It just seems to float.

Chasing spelling, bad grammar, and GUI logic issues takes a heck of a lot of time in managing a product developed offshore. In my previous company we had an engineer who set the default timezone of our system to be his birth hometown of Yekaterinburg - which (obviously) ended up being of concern to our US customers.

 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 11:45:39 am
Do you really expect to hook up anything and just trust it? We never trusted Fluke nor Tektronix nor HP (those were the only things we had in the Navy lab), nor Anritsu or HP or Tabor (in the university lab) or even the expensive stuff like Bruel & Kjaer. Why would you trust a Rigol any more than that???
Do you expect anyone with sane mind to use broken feature for anything even remotely serious, by characterizing amount of it's brokenness? (unless you are on a Mars and this is you're only scope). What is broken, must be fixed and not considered small nuisance that probably can be characterized.

Well - As engineers we like to dwell in the comfort of the digital domain, where numbers are numbers and interfaces work well.

I can't talk to all disciplines of electronics design but my topics were analog: undersea acoustics (B&K and ITC transducers, lots of B&K Amplifiers, Recorders, HP and Tek visualizations - scopes), RF (Mainly Anritsu, EESof - before HP bought them, and HP signal generators, Mini-circuits and others) and Power electronics (transformers and mainly Fluke stuff).

For all of them we would meticulously characterize prior to running a field test. Before building an antenna. Before getting the navy to send out ships for a test. Why - because they all had limits. Call it broken. Call it functionality problems. Whatever. Once you are in the analog realm everything rings with Gibbs. Every square wave badly formed by non perfect semiconductors is further rounded by your probe and scope. Everything is broken. Yes.

If understanding that everything is broken helps someone out there avoid a mistake - I'll buy in to the concept. Everything is broken. Now as engineers, let's understand the compromises and use the properly characterized (albeit - broken) tool for the job.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 11:52:46 am
properly characterized

This is the key.

We've just characterized the Rigol's RMS readings. That's progress.

PS: I'm still waiting to see if people can do the same tests on other 'scopes. Where are the GW Instek boys when you need them?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on July 25, 2016, 12:09:29 pm
And now please characterize dependence between CH2 RMS reading from the signal captured on CH1, because it is there. Call it digital crosstalk.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 25, 2016, 12:16:26 pm
Hi everyone...

@Fungus, you have 4.3SP1 firmare on your scope i think. Can you do this simple test for me and send screenshots.

First connect your probes on probe calibration terminal:

1. Set your probes at 10x, and on the scope comp. 10x also (both channels DC coupled),
2. Set scope time base 500us,
3. Select for both channels RMS measurement from left vertical menu (not Per.Vrms),
4. Set Cursor Mode:Auto/ Auto Item:Quick2 (indicates Ch2 RMS, it may Quick1 select accordingly),
5. Set Ch2 10V/per.div and position -30V,
6. Set Trigger on Ch2,
7. Please take a screenshot with quickprint button,
8. Set Ch1 to AC Coupling,
9. Take another screenshot,
10. Now set Ch1 Coupling to GND and take last screenshot.

I have 4.3SP2 firmware and these are my screenshots...


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on July 25, 2016, 12:17:26 pm
Turning on AC coupling gives completely different numbers.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243210;image)

nb. The correct RMS for a 3V square wave should be 2.12V  (3/sqrt(2))
Learn how RMS works. 1.5V is correct value.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 25, 2016, 12:50:29 pm
Turning on AC coupling gives completely different numbers.

(image snipped)

nb. The correct RMS for a 3V square wave should be 2.12V  (3/sqrt(2))
Learn how RMS works. 1.5V is correct value.

That's right. The Vp/sqrt(2) is for a 50 percent duty cycle positive pulse train. For the bipolar square wave VRMS = Vpeak.
Derivations here:
http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/ (http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 01:07:35 pm
Hi everyone...

@Fungus, you have 4.3SP1 firmare on your scope i think. Can you do this simple test for me and send screenshots.

First connect your probes on probe calibration terminal:

I have 4.3SP2 firmware and these are my screenshots...

Mine are very similar.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 01:10:32 pm
Following on from the previous test: We know the Rigol works from 'on-screen' data so what happens if you maximize the waveform on screen?

Answer: All the readings are now very accurate!

Here's the same set of tests. The "RMS" readings are now 2.13, 2.13, 2.11  (should be about 2.12 for a 3V square wave)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243328;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243334;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243332;image)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wraper on July 25, 2016, 01:22:07 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243318;image)
So Per.Vrms is broken too  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 25, 2016, 01:23:29 pm
Thanks @Fungus. But your cursor setting is not what i told (it must Cursor/Mode:Auto-Auto Item: QuickX (ch2 RMS))

And you are not seeing big picture, when you set the ch1 coupling to GND, your ch2 RMS measurement error is gone... ;D

Sadly it seems 4.3SP1 have this RMS bug too.  :palm:


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 01:26:24 pm
Hi everyone...

@Fungus, you have 4.3SP1 firmare on your scope i think. Can you do this simple test for me and send screenshots.

First connect your probes on probe calibration terminal:

1. Set your probes at 10x, and on the scope comp. 10x also (both channels DC coupled),
2. Set scope time base 500us,
3. Select for both channels RMS measurement from left vertical menu (not Per.Vrms),
4. Set Cursor Mode:Auto/ Auto Item:Quick2 (indicates Ch2 RMS, it may Quick1 select accordingly),
5. Set Ch2 10V/per.div and position -30V,
6. Set Trigger on Ch2,
7. Please take a screenshot with quickprint button,
8. Set Ch1 to AC Coupling,
9. Take another screenshot,
10. Now set Ch1 Coupling to GND and take last screenshot.

I have 4.3SP2 firmware and these are my screenshots...

I concur the findings. Interesting. Tried the same with Ch1 and Ch3 - but didn't get the same results - are you getting this behavior for any combination of channels?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 25, 2016, 01:29:05 pm
OK... based on JohnPen's posts I have pulled the trigger and updated my scope to the current firmware  00.04.04.00.07.

I am very happy to report that the Math Horizontal Error at 500 ns/div seems to be GONE !! The Math trace now displays correct time relationships to the input signals.

I am still testing for the Measurements Fail bug. This one was totally random in the time it took to fail so it may take me a while to be confident that it is gone.

The interface doesn't seem quite as sluggish as it was before, but that might just be subjective.

Color me a happy scoposcopist! Yay Rigol! :clap:

Now if we could only get rid of that "Pluses" thing.....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 01:35:11 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243318;image)
So Per.Vrms is broken too  :palm:

Yes - if the vertical range is such that does not allow it to figure out what 1 cycle looks like - it shows zero. Zero is indeed wrong. But we now know that in Rigol Land, 0 stands for "0" but also for "couldn't quite latch on so I'll say 0".

BTW - It would have been more useful to say N/A to let us know it could not find a cycle, rather than a misleading 0.

A corollary - if you increase the Y axis even more - the error in Vrms calculation increases. That is also "broken". 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 25, 2016, 02:26:19 pm
Comparing DS1000Z vs. DS2000A regarding RMS bug...

 ;D

Thanks for your patience.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 25, 2016, 02:34:59 pm

I concur the findings. Interesting. Tried the same with Ch1 and Ch3 - but didn't get the same results - are you getting this behavior for any combination of channels?

Thank you for checking this.

If you gonna try other channels, try like this;

Ch1 =leaks=> Ch2, Ch2 =leaks=> Ch3, Ch3 =leaks=> Ch4  ;D

Just fantastic!

OK... based on JohnPen's posts I have pulled the trigger and updated my scope to the current firmware  00.04.04.00.07.

I am very happy to report that the Math Horizontal Error at 500 ns/div seems to be GONE !! The Math trace now displays correct time relationships to the input signals.

I am still testing for the Measurements Fail bug. This one was totally random in the time it took to fail so it may take me a while to be confident that it is gone.

The interface doesn't seem quite as sluggish as it was before, but that might just be subjective.

Color me a happy scoposcopist! Yay Rigol! :clap:

Now if we could only get rid of that "Pluses" thing.....

Btw. can you test RMS sht., if its okay i'm gonna flash it too. Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 03:35:02 pm

I concur the findings. Interesting. Tried the same with Ch1 and Ch3 - but didn't get the same results - are you getting this behavior for any combination of channels?

Thank you for checking this.

If you gonna try other channels, try like this;

Ch1 =leaks=> Ch2, Ch2 =leaks=> Ch3, Ch3 =leaks=> Ch4  ;D

Just fantastic!

Indeed - it does indeed. What a curious bug. As a programming bug why would it happen between inputs 1&2; 2&3 and 3&4 and not 1&3 or 1&4? It is almost as if it some RMS aggregating capacitor that needs a few more mSec to discharge and zero out...

Few comments about the bug - If one wants to measure RMS voltage of two channels as accurate as possible simultaneously - choose 1&4. Also, as usual, have the trace take up as much vertical space as practical (always good, and PerRMS will work for repetitive signals too!).   

Edit - one thing I noticed - you do not need the cursor at all to reproduce the bug. Just two channels, hook up the trigger to the first channel and play with the y-div of the second channel. It is crystal clear...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 25, 2016, 04:23:46 pm
I tried and confirmed that nothing is needed except :
1. two consecutive channels, (1&2 for instance)
2. connect with probes to cal out..
3. press auto setup
4. enable RMS on both...

Funny thing if you disable channel 1, trace is gone, it shows channel as off, but RMS for CH1 is still calculated and CH2 RMS has error...
Only if you set coupling to GND or disconnect cable on CH1 it goes away.

If I were to speculate, it is a problem how they handle data for RMS calc.. RMS is calculated as a running filter on a circular buffer... multiplexed between channels.. could be that  some data in some buffer leaks to a next channel or something like that..
Anyways, annoying...

No other problems though...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 05:34:03 pm
A corollary - if you increase the Y axis even more - the error in Vrms calculation increases. That is also "broken".

If the trace goes off screen it will fail because the 8-bit ADC will be saturated to readings of 0 & 256.

There's nothing anybody can do about that.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 05:38:28 pm
Thanks @Fungus. But your cursor setting is not what i told (it must Cursor/Mode:Auto-Auto Item: QuickX (ch2 RMS))

 :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 05:42:23 pm
the Math Horizontal Error at 500 ns/div seems to be GONE !!

I am still testing for the Measurements Fail bug. This one was totally random in the time it took to fail so it may take me a while to be confident that it is gone.

The interface doesn't seem quite as sluggish as it was before, but that might just be subjective.

That's pretty much all the major complaints fixed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2016, 05:43:54 pm
If I were to speculate, it is a problem how they handle data for RMS calc.. RMS is calculated as a running filter on a circular buffer... multiplexed between channels.. could be that  some data in some buffer leaks to a next channel or something like that..

If that's true then how do you explain that the bug comes and goes depending on the vertical scale?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 25, 2016, 05:52:08 pm
@Fungus
What don't you understand...

It's amplifies error voltage with vertical settings goes higher (like volume pot :P ) and multiplies with Ch2's probe compensation setting.

Did you see my ds1000z vs. ds2000a compared side by side with same settings?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 25, 2016, 06:04:04 pm
I was an idiot and tried the following procedure to firmware upgrade:


Instead of that, all of the CH buttons lit up, the scope speaker generated a continuous tone, and it destroyed my USB drive! Yes, you read that right. Now the nice high-speed 32GB USB drive I put the firmware on won't even connect to any device or computer I try.

I thought that this had messed up the USB interface on the scope, too -- because afterward, it did not recognize other USB drives. But a power disconnect and reconnect fixed that.

Anyway, I've upgraded using the normal procedure. I'll report back later.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 25, 2016, 06:06:42 pm
Also, are you guys doing the self-cal on the scope as requested, after firmware upgrade? I only ask because I now see a new button on the Self-Cal menu that I haven't seen anyone mention.

It now reads:


Was this there before? I certainly don't remember it.

I tried LFCal, it does something and then says it failed. It looks like it might need a probe attached or something.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 25, 2016, 06:13:38 pm
I am very happy to report that the Math Horizontal Error at 500 ns/div seems to be GONE !! The Math trace now displays correct time relationships to the input signals.

I am still testing for the Measurements Fail bug. This one was totally random in the time it took to fail so it may take me a while to be confident that it is gone.

Thanks alsetalokin4017 and JohnPen. So far, so good on the rectification of those functional issues.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 25, 2016, 06:31:01 pm
Instead of that, all of the CH buttons lit up, the scope speaker generated a continuous tone, and it destroyed my USB drive! Yes, you read that right. Now the nice high-speed 32GB USB drive I put the firmware on won't even connect to any device or computer I try.

Unless it has changed in newer firmware, according to the Dec. 2015 documentation the largest USB drive that's supported is still only 8GB (see Ch. 17).

Interestingly, the manual now states that only FAT32 is supported (see Ch. 14), whereas earlier versions didn't specify. So, that definitively establishes what I had suspected when I was having trouble with smaller USB drives (FAT16 and large clusters).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 06:33:07 pm
A corollary - if you increase the Y axis even more - the error in Vrms calculation increases. That is also "broken".

If the trace goes off screen it will fail because the 8-bit ADC will be saturated to readings of 0 & 256.

There's nothing anybody can do about that.

Indeed that is the flip side of what I was saying. Increasing the V/div would decrease the size of the trace on screen. At some point (as the square wave deliquesces into a line) the errors increase and Vrms goes haywire.

However, Meka77's bug is not that phenomena - it is a separate issue that happens between consecutive channels.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 06:55:28 pm
Also, are you guys doing the self-cal on the scope as requested, after firmware upgrade? I only ask because I now see a new button on the Self-Cal menu that I haven't seen anyone mention.

It now reads:

  • Start
  • End
  • LFCal
  • Output

Was this there before? I certainly don't remember it.

I tried LFCal, it does something and then says it failed. It looks like it might need a probe attached or something.

I don't see that...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 25, 2016, 06:55:35 pm
Instead of that, all of the CH buttons lit up, the scope speaker generated a continuous tone, and it destroyed my USB drive! Yes, you read that right. Now the nice high-speed 32GB USB drive I put the firmware on won't even connect to any device or computer I try.

Unless it has changed in newer firmware, according to the Dec. 2015 documentation the largest USB drive that's supported is still only 8GB (see Ch. 17).

Interestingly, the manual now states that only FAT32 is supported (see Ch. 14), whereas earlier versions didn't specify. So, that definitively establishes what I had suspected when I was having trouble with smaller USB drives (FAT16 and large clusters).

For purposes of making screenshots, I have used an identical 32GB FAT-formatted flash drive in the 1054z. It worked fine, and detected it as 32GB (or whatever, 31GB).

However, this doesn't come near to explaining why it murdered my drive. It's so tiny of a drive it will be near impossible to take apart.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 25, 2016, 07:03:13 pm
Also, are you guys doing the self-cal on the scope as requested, after firmware upgrade? I only ask because I now see a new button on the Self-Cal menu that I haven't seen anyone mention.

It now reads:

  • Start
  • End
  • LFCal
  • Output

Was this there before? I certainly don't remember it.

I tried LFCal, it does something and then says it failed. It looks like it might need a probe attached or something.

I don't see that...

I just checked, me neither...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 25, 2016, 07:04:37 pm
Also, are you guys doing the self-cal on the scope as requested, after firmware upgrade? I only ask because I now see a new button on the Self-Cal menu that I haven't seen anyone mention.

It now reads:

  • Start
  • End
  • LFCal
  • Output

Was this there before? I certainly don't remember it.

I tried LFCal, it does something and then says it failed. It looks like it might need a probe attached or something.

I don't see that...

My Bad - it is a "secret" menu accessible only after hittin MENU MENU FORCE MENU fast. And there is a spelling error there too...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 25, 2016, 07:06:09 pm
For purposes of making screenshots, I have used an identical 32GB FAT-formatted flash drive in the 1054z. It worked fine, and detected it as 32GB (or whatever, 31GB).

However, this doesn't come near to explaining why it murdered my drive. It's so tiny of a drive it will be near impossible to take apart.

Yeah, it might work, but no guarantees. Granted, that doesn't explain why it trashed the drive, but thought I'd mention the official limit in case you hadn't seen it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 25, 2016, 08:10:50 pm
I am very happy to report that the Math Horizontal Error at 500 ns/div seems to be GONE !! The Math trace now displays correct time relationships to the input signals.

I am still testing for the Measurements Fail bug. This one was totally random in the time it took to fail so it may take me a while to be confident that it is gone.

Thanks alsetalokin4017 and JohnPen. So far, so good on the rectification of those functional issues.

Whohoo! What's left besides trivial spelling?

Re: RMS measurements, do these values fall within the specifications, usually as a % of full scale, with 1 bit resolution? I also recall a channel isolation spec.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 26, 2016, 06:53:06 am
OOPS.....

I warmed the scope up, did a self-calibration, restarted, and reloaded a saved test setup that I was using to see if the Measurements would fail after a random time. I'm using the same input to both channels, from a BNC T on the FG and two matched BNC cables into the scope. And I saw this very strange thing.....

The Measurements are updating properly except that the Average and Std.Deviation in the CH1  Period_VRMS window are not being computed!   :wtf:

More weirdness: Turning CH1 off with its button removes the trace from the screen but does not stop its Measurements: they continue to be updated with apparently correct values except for the missing Average and Deviation. (It does stop the Math computation though.) Setting CH1 coupling to Ground stops them, except for VRMS which continues to show a value and updating Measurements. Neither of these manipulations start the CH1 P_VRMS Average and Deviation working again.

But changing the timebase started the CH1 P_VRMS Average and Deviation readings working again !!

 :-//


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 26, 2016, 08:26:05 am
OOPS.....

More weirdness: Turning CH1 off with its button removes the trace from the screen but does not stop its Measurements: they continue to be updated with apparently correct values except for the missing Average and Deviation. (It does stop the Math computation though.) Setting CH1 coupling to Ground stops them,

 :-//

Exactly what I saw too...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on July 26, 2016, 08:57:12 am
I get the same but the Per. Vrms stats only continue if you are triggering the scope from the CH display you have turned off.  Put another way trigger from CH1, displaying CH1 and CH2. Turn off CH2 stats cease to be collected on CH2.  Turn off CH1 stats continue to be collected.  Move trigger to CH2 and the situation swaps around.  I was unable to reproduce the Avg and Dev not collecting state but maybe it is a difficult one to create.

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 26, 2016, 01:09:57 pm
Perhaps all of these issues are related to the Meka77 bug (where RMS calculations are linked between subsequent channels - CH1 effect on CH2, CH2 effect on CH3 measurements..). It would seem likely that there is a parameter or a data set that is being incorrectly shared between channels.

I tried to send the Meka77 bug to Rigol - I don't know if they read email or not....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gblades on July 26, 2016, 01:49:58 pm
Instead of that, all of the CH buttons lit up, the scope speaker generated a continuous tone, and it destroyed my USB drive! Yes, you read that right. Now the nice high-speed 32GB USB drive I put the firmware on won't even connect to any device or computer I try.

Maybe it didn't physically damage your flash drive but corrupted its firmware somehow. Maybe this link will help.
http://www.rmprepusb.com/tutorials/repair-your-usb-flash-drive (http://www.rmprepusb.com/tutorials/repair-your-usb-flash-drive)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 26, 2016, 05:11:16 pm
How do I completely clear a measurement? I was trying to set my scope to duplicate some of the setups here and if I pressed the wrong measurement, I can't figure out how to make it go away completely. If I delete it, it stays grayed out and a new measurement will just be added.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 26, 2016, 05:53:41 pm
How do I completely clear a measurement? I was trying to set my scope to duplicate some of the setups here and if I pressed the wrong measurement, I can't figure out how to make it go away completely. If I delete it, it stays grayed out and a new measurement will just be added.

If I understood correctly what you want, following button sequence :

[MEASURE]->[CLEAR]->[ALL ITEMS]

That will clear all measurement started from a menu buttons on the left of the screen..

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 26, 2016, 06:07:08 pm
You can "clear" all of them, but individual "removed" ones won't go away until they're replaced with a different one. Unfortunately, it doesn't remove a measurement and move the remaining ones to close the gap, as one would expect.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 26, 2016, 06:24:24 pm
You can "clear" all of them, but individual "removed" ones won't go away until they're replaced with a different one. Unfortunately, it doesn't remove a measurement and move the remaining ones to close the gap, as one would expect.

OK so I didn't understand ... :palm:

But I tried what you say .. I setup 5 measurements, deleted number 3, and when I pressed a new one, item 4 and 5 shifted left to 3 and 4 and new one appeared on place 5.. 1 and 2 did not change..

Tried twice, and worked like that both times... I guess you can't delete them like that... it might has to do with delete /recover function... maybe  for individual measurements, they should have called it enable/disable not delete.....  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 26, 2016, 06:50:11 pm
You did it correctly. When you "delete" number 3, it's just grayed out. If you add the same one again, it's just re-enabled in the same location. If, instead, a new one is enabled, then the others shift to replace the grayed out ones and the new one is added at the end. I guess you could call the behaviors enable/disable/replace -- no delete.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 26, 2016, 08:13:40 pm
Well, I don't know if this was mentioned before  :-// but found out few new clues...

First, when you disable channels, measurement is still visible for the channel that is trigger source... you change trigger source, it follows enabling measurement for that chn, even with no trace on screen..

Second, I'm definitely seeing something else weird..
If I put vertical to highest sensitivity (10mV/div with 10x probe) and enable only CH2 or CH3, they have an offset of 3-4 mV on that scale (0,3-0,4 of div)..
If I enable channels next to it, offset goes AWAY.. but if I enable CH2 and CH4, I can still see offset on CH2 , unless ... |O I move trigger source from CH1 to CH4 and then it works in differnet channel configs...
Basically , I guess measurement errors are connected with these offset errors..
It's a combination of enabled channels and trigger sources...

I think this should be enough info for Rigol to know where to look for in the code... And they definitely should...


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on July 26, 2016, 08:47:46 pm
... they have an offset of 3-4 mV on that scale (0,3-0,4 of div) ...

Well, an Oscilloscope isn't made to measure voltages. It's made to show you voltage characteristics.

Cheers
hammy
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 26, 2016, 09:22:13 pm
... they have an offset of 3-4 mV on that scale (0,3-0,4 of div) ...

Well, an Oscilloscope isn't made to measure voltages. It's made to show you voltage characteristics.

Cheers
hammy

Hammy, thanks for you trying to help, but let me explain: you probably didn't understand me properly...

So let me explain it further: :-+

1. Hardware offset on channels is actually very low - on the level of 200 uV on my scope ... and is very consistent on ALL channels.. :-+
2. What I was referring to was artificial software induced offset on both trace and measurements that happens when enabling weird combinations of channels... :-//
3. Since trace display offset happens in a similar patterns as measurements bugs, I propose there could be a link between those two anomalies.. Especially when we know measurements are taking data from screen data... :-BROKE

I would like that Rigol finds a bug and fixes it.. It's a stupid software annoyance on a otherwise solid and very good instrument...

Anyways nice to hear from you.   For the record, I'we been tinkering with soldering iron since elementary school.. and that was some 40 years ago  :palm:..
I know how to use scope for quite some time, and I do measure voltage with my 6.5 digit voltmeter when I need precision.. :-DMM
But you don't know that so I thank you for you just being friendly and trying to teach me.. :-+
Please correct me any time if I don't make sense in the future too....

All the best,
Sinisa

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on July 26, 2016, 09:38:27 pm
I know how to use scope for quite some time, and I do measure voltage with my 6.5 digit voltmeter when I need precision.. :-DMM
But you don't know that so I thank you for you just being friendly and trying to teach me.. :-+
Please correct me any time if I don't make sense in the future too....

No offense intended!  :-+ ;)
I see your point ...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 26, 2016, 09:41:31 pm
I know how to use scope for quite some time, and I do measure voltage with my 6.5 digit voltmeter when I need precision.. :-DMM
But you don't know that so I thank you for you just being friendly and trying to teach me.. :-+
Please correct me any time if I don't make sense in the future too....

No offense intended!  :-+ ;)
I see your point ...

Nice to meet you... Take care Hammy!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 27, 2016, 04:00:30 am
You did it correctly. When you "delete" number 3, it's just grayed out. If you add the same one again, it's just re-enabled in the same location. If, instead, a new one is enabled, then the others shift to replace the grayed out ones and the new one is added at the end. I guess you could call the behaviors enable/disable/replace -- no delete.

Don't forget about the "Sel. Item" (select item) in Measure. This adds a bit more flexibility in what Measurements are displayed. But they still act like kind of a 'shift register' where new ones are added on the right and once you have 5, then the next (6th) one pushes the first one off to the left, and so on, so you always have the last five measurements chosen, but you can select from the last 5 items chosen in Sel. Item. Then when you are using Large or ExtraLarge fonts, you can display only three or two of the last 5 chosen, as selected in Sel. Item.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 27, 2016, 07:11:12 am
... they have an offset of 3-4 mV on that scale (0,3-0,4 of div) ...

Well, an Oscilloscope isn't made to measure voltages. It's made to show you voltage characteristics.

Cheers
hammy

An Oscilloscope measures voltage vs. time. So an oscilloscope BY IT'S DEFINITION is made to measure voltage.

Perhaps you mean "an oscilloscope isn't meant to measure voltage (nor time, FWIW) to a high degree of accuracy, precision and resolution."; That, I think, few will argue.

But here is a screenshot I sent to Rigol (and got no reply :() . All three channels are connected to the compensation terminal, are all identical probes, etc. The only difference is V/div. This is more than a 400% mistake. Does that fall under the definition of "precision" or "accuracy"? I don't think so. I call this a Bug.

 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on July 27, 2016, 09:24:09 am
How do I completely clear a measurement? I was trying to set my scope to duplicate some of the setups here and if I pressed the wrong measurement, I can't figure out how to make it go away completely. If I delete it, it stays grayed out and a new measurement will just be added.

Long-pressing the 'Measure' button clears all the measures :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 27, 2016, 10:13:06 am
Long-pressing the 'Measure' button clears all the measures :-)
LOL as soon I get to lab I'm gonna try it... Epic...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 27, 2016, 12:36:59 pm
But here is a screenshot I sent to Rigol (and got no reply :() . All three channels are connected to the compensation terminal, are all identical probes, etc. The only difference is V/div. This is more than a 400% mistake. Does that fall under the definition of "precision" or "accuracy"? I don't think so. I call this a Bug.

The scope specs are rated full scale. If I had a 160V full scale panel meter and fed it 3V, how much absolute error would you expect on that voltage reading? Then it's digital 8 bit with a resolution of 1 bit and consider there is real analog noise, what voltage range are we talking now? Now take that figure and perform some floating point math and see where we are.

I'm not saying the scope is right, but I also think we should keep some things in perspective.

I'm not saying I'm an expert either, but is anything in my screenshot out of spec?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 27, 2016, 12:43:21 pm
Long-pressing the 'Measure' button clears all the measures :-)
LOL as soon I get to lab I'm gonna try it... Epic...

I read that in the manual now, press and hold measure to clear all measurements. But if you enable one (I enabled the last one), they all come back grayed out, except the last one enabled. The same thing if I use the All Items Delete button. So how do I get rid of them all and just enable only one again, without excess grayed out clutter coming back?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 27, 2016, 01:04:51 pm
Long-pressing the 'Measure' button clears all the measures :-)
LOL as soon I get to lab I'm gonna try it... Epic...

I read that in the manual now, press and hold measure to clear all measurements. But if you enable one (I enabled the last one), they all come back grayed out, except the last one enabled. The same thing if I use the All Items Delete button. So how do I get rid of them all and just enable only one again, without excess grayed out clutter coming back?

It's even worse if you select the Large or Extra Large text.  It will only display the first 4 or 2 respectively.  I find there is no way to get one of the off screen measurements to display in the larger text.  Even if measurement is grayed and deleted.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 27, 2016, 01:48:18 pm
I found two options, default the scope, or turn them off and cycle power.

BTW, this signal has some jitter and the voltage spikes you see are real. Vrms seems off.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on July 27, 2016, 01:52:57 pm
But here is a screenshot I sent to Rigol (and got no reply :() . All three channels are connected to the compensation terminal, are all identical probes, etc. The only difference is V/div. This is more than a 400% mistake. Does that fall under the definition of "precision" or "accuracy"? I don't think so. I call this a Bug.

It is a bug but more serious than the related measurement bugs.  But I would consider the ground coupling display a bug (or a lie) also.

The way I remember it, these Rigol DSOs make their measurements on the display record instead of the acquisition record leading to some odd behaviors like the measurements changing depending on the position control or magnification.  Using the display record sort of makes sense when multiple acquisition records are processed to produce it since this allows high record acquisition rates but it does not surprise me that this creates problems.

Does changing the positioning or magnification have any effect?  What about the record length?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2016, 02:17:10 pm
BTW, this signal has some jitter and the voltage spikes you see are real. Vrms seems off.  :-//

What happens if you look at "Per.RMS" instead or put a decent number of waveforms on screen?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 27, 2016, 03:50:49 pm
BTW, this signal has some jitter and the voltage spikes you see are real. Vrms seems off.  :-//

What happens if you look at "Per.RMS" instead or put a decent number of waveforms on screen?

I'll try per. RMS, but increasing waveforms had little effect. I used this screenshot so the voltage spikes could be seen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on July 27, 2016, 04:00:57 pm
It seems your test signal has pretty much DC offset so the RMS value could very well be correct.

You may try to use AC input coupling for comparison.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 27, 2016, 05:11:26 pm
But here is a screenshot I sent to Rigol (and got no reply :() . All three channels are connected to the compensation terminal, are all identical probes, etc. The only difference is V/div. This is more than a 400% mistake. Does that fall under the definition of "precision" or "accuracy"? I don't think so. I call this a Bug.

The scope specs are rated full scale. If I had a 160V full scale panel meter and fed it 3V, how much absolute error would you expect on that voltage reading? Then it's digital 8 bit with a resolution of 1 bit and consider there is real analog noise, what voltage range are we talking now? Now take that figure and perform some floating point math and see where we are.

I'm not saying the scope is right, but I also think we should keep some things in perspective.

I'm not saying I'm an expert either, but is anything in my screenshot out of spec?
If you didn't notice, CH2 and CH3 are set to the same V/div.. CH3 also seems to have a slightly higher offset and yet CH2 reading is 4-5 times higher
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 27, 2016, 05:27:30 pm
In my post both channels 2 & 3 had the same scale and same input (and settings). Yet one showed 12v RMS and one showed around 2v RMS.

I could do the same with channels 3. & 4 by triggering on channel 2. All channels seem to measure and even calculate correctly. Except if the trigger is set to the preceding channel.

Reeks of a SW bug. Easy to get around as well by just using every other channel (eg ch 1 and 3).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 27, 2016, 06:26:18 pm
I understand what you folks are saying, but is the number outside the specification? I showed that the same measurement set up more reasonably is within spec. It's the same signal and same measurement.

If you take your trusty high accuracy DVMs and feed them 0.01 volts and have it set to a 100+V range, are you going to complain if one meter says 0.01 and another is 400% off (0.04)?

I totally understand that it is a software bug and could be fixed, but if both channels were closer in value yet still just as far off, then what? It's in spec! (I think anyway...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 27, 2016, 06:27:05 pm
Almost sounds like someone started counting from 0 in one part of the code and from 1 in another. :-// Wouldn't be the first time I've seen or heard of that happening.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 27, 2016, 07:34:16 pm
I understand what you folks are saying, but is the number outside the specification? I showed that the same measurement set up more reasonably is within spec. It's the same signal and same measurement.

If you take your trusty high accuracy DVMs and feed them 0.01 volts and have it set to a 100+V range, are you going to complain if one meter says 0.01 and another is 400% off (0.04)?

I totally understand that it is a software bug and could be fixed, but if both channels were closer in value yet still just as far off, then what? It's in spec! (I think anyway...)

I think you're missing the point... I'l try to explain, because his example is too elaborate and confusing..

Try this:

(This is with 10X probes and channels set for them)

1. Set timebase to 100 uSec/div..
2. Enable CH1 and CH2, DC coupling, and trigger on CH1, setup trigger to 1.5V to have a stable trace..
3. Set VRMS measurement on both CH1 and CH2..
4. Plug in the probe ONLY to CH1 and connect it to CAL. DO not connect anything to CH2..
5. Set CH1 to 1V/div..
6. Set CH2 to20V/div..

On CH1 I get  2.07 VRms and on CH2 that has NOTHING connected I read 37. 9V VRms  |O :-// :bullshit:
It gets even better... now disable CH1... it is still the same... Grounding the coupling or disconnecting the cable will make it go away...


This proves there is a spillover of data from CH1 to CH2 for VRMS... It measures about 10% less than CH1 in raw data, and multiplies that with vertical amplifier ratio.

This is not about how accurate is RMS algorithm and details like such...  :popcorn:
It is about the fact that CH2 is showing you data form ANOTHER channel while you don't have anything connected to it ...  |O :wtf:

Another thing, Per Vrms is good only for periodic signals... You need this broken RMS for noise, DC and such...  So yeah I need this fixed...

Regards..








Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 27, 2016, 08:29:25 pm
I said I understood it was a bug, but what real world measurement fails for you, that is my point? It's a nice anecdote; however, if you were really measuring low-level DC or noise in the low mv range, who would be setting the scale to 160V?

Of course, I could be wrong and this is certainly a nuisance, but I've found it's best to use equipment in ways that enhance its performance rather than in ways magnify its weaknesses. That is true for anything.

BTW, I think in single channel mode, the performance of the scope is outstanding, and that is why I think this bug is nuisance, because it certainly need not be this way.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 27, 2016, 08:35:05 pm
I understand what you folks are saying, but is the number outside the specification? I showed that the same measurement set up more reasonably is within spec. It's the same signal and same measurement.

If you take your trusty high accuracy DVMs and feed them 0.01 volts and have it set to a 100+V range, are you going to complain if one meter says 0.01 and another is 400% off (0.04)?

I totally understand that it is a software bug and could be fixed, but if both channels were closer in value yet still just as far off, then what? It's in spec! (I think anyway...)

+4 digits Can be within spec on a DMM - especially a 4-5-6 digits one. That's least significant digit.

My example was 1 extra digit. But it was most significant digit. And channel 3 set up the same was perfect.

Also, in your example, DMM 1 would usually read higher than DMM 2 but still in spec. In the example channel 2 adds 10 most significant digits only because of CH1. In the same example setting CH1 to GND will get CH2 reading to go from 12 to 2 V RMS.

So no - it has nothing to do with ranges.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 27, 2016, 09:24:41 pm
I said I understood it was a bug, but what real world measurement fails for you, that is my point? It's a nice anecdote; however, if you were really measuring low-level DC or noise in the low mv range, who would be setting the scale to 160V?

Of course, I could be wrong and this is certainly a nuisance, but I've found it's best to use equipment in ways that enhance its performance rather than in ways magnify its weaknesses. That is true for anything.

BTW, I think in single channel mode, the performance of the scope is outstanding, and that is why I think this bug is nuisance, because it certainly need not be this way.

I don't know if you for some reason refuse to read what I wrote or you're making fun of me... :-// :-DD

NO milivolts... Read again.. CH1 AND CH2 on 1V/DIV , probe connected only to CH1

NOTHING on CH2, disconnected, no probe connected...

RMS on CH1 2.07V, RMS on CH2 1.9V !!!

With nothing connected to the CH2 BNC. |O

CH2 with NOTHING connected to it measures cca 80%  of whatever you are measuring on CH1 ( not flecking micro-volts, but 80 %  of data from CH1.....:wtf:)

That fails EVERY real world measurement criteria for that channel and particular RMS measurement..... :--

If I have NOTHING connected to CH2(no probe, BNC is empty), I can't have spillover from CH1  to CH2 of 1.9V RMS... That is 2 DIVs :palm:

But is a serious thing if you need RMS... I can just measure on CH2 and CH3 as a workaround but it is a serous flaw anyways.. And I didn't buy 4CH scope to use it as a 1CH...
I could have gone with 2CH DS2000 series with just a little more money but I needed 4CH for the  things I do...
So I want all channels to work normally.. Of course I will make do with it for the time being.. But it should be fixed eventually.. :clap:

I don't want this to become an argument of a sorts. I'm persistent because you seem not to understand the problem, and despite your good will to help, you are talking about unconnected things..
I just want to untangle misunderstanding.. :-+

All the best..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 27, 2016, 10:13:19 pm
I said I understood it was a bug, but what real world measurement fails for you, that is my point? It's a nice anecdote; however, if you were really measuring low-level DC or noise in the low mv range, who would be setting the scale to 160V?

Of course, I could be wrong and this is certainly a nuisance, but I've found it's best to use equipment in ways that enhance its performance rather than in ways magnify its weaknesses. That is true for anything.

BTW, I think in single channel mode, the performance of the scope is outstanding, and that is why I think this bug is nuisance, because it certainly need not be this way.

I don't know if you for some reason refuse to read what I wrote or you're making fun of me... :-// :-DD


Not making fun, but I still qualify that I could be wrong. That is why I am asking what real world measurement fails for you?

Quote

NO milivolts... Read again.. CH1 AND CH2 on 1V/DIV , probe connected only to CH1

NOTHING on CH2, disconnected, no probe connected...

RMS on CH1 2.07V, RMS on CH2 1.9V !!!

With nothing connected to the CH2 BNC. |O


Um, I'm talking about what you are complaining about, the RMS reading on CH2, which has nothing connected, so you are measuring very low level noise, no? AND, you said: "6. Set CH2 to20V/div.."

You do realize that is 160V full scale, and the spec is +/-3% of 160V, right? Am I wrong? You should be expecting a straight voltage in the range of -4.8V to +4.8V with the scope set up this way. Am I wrong here? Maybe I am just making a fool of myself. I am not an engineer or anything like that.

Quote
CH2 with NOTHING connected to it measures cca 80%  of whatever you are measuring on CH1 ( not flecking micro-volts, but 80 %  of data from CH1.....:wtf:)

That fails EVERY real world measurement criteria for that channel and particular RMS measurement..... :--

If I have NOTHING connected to CH2(no probe, BNC is empty), I can't have spillover from CH1  to CH2 of 1.9V RMS... That is 2 DIVs :palm:


I thought you set CH2 to 20V/div/ Two divs is 40 volts, right?

Quote
But is a serious thing if you need RMS... I can just measure on CH2 and CH3 as a workaround but it is a serous flaw anyways.. And I didn't buy 4CH scope to use it as a 1CH...
I could have gone with 2CH DS2000 series with just a little more money but I needed 4CH for the  things I do...
So I want all channels to work normally.. Of course I will make do with it for the time being.. But it should be fixed eventually.. :clap:

I don't want this to become an argument of a sorts. I'm persistent because you seem not to understand the problem, and despite your good will to help, you are talking about unconnected things..
I just want to untangle misunderstanding.. :-+

All the best..

I still totally understand your perspective. Where I am coming from though is understanding the product specs and limitations that the mfg can impose. You are taking an idealistic point of view, and I totally agree it is a shame because this spillover need not be that way. It may be a trivial matter for Rigol to fix it, or it may involve thousands of man-hours. Rigol is in it to make money, and unless the scope is failing its spec, then they are not bound to fix it, no matter how embarrassing.

And once again, to my point about setting up the instrument in the best possible way to achieve an accurate result should not be dismissed. I'm sure you would do that anyway even without this bug.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 27, 2016, 10:18:13 pm
I understand what you folks are saying, but is the number outside the specification? I showed that the same measurement set up more reasonably is within spec. It's the same signal and same measurement.

If you take your trusty high accuracy DVMs and feed them 0.01 volts and have it set to a 100+V range, are you going to complain if one meter says 0.01 and another is 400% off (0.04)?

I totally understand that it is a software bug and could be fixed, but if both channels were closer in value yet still just as far off, then what? It's in spec! (I think anyway...)

+4 digits Can be within spec on a DMM - especially a 4-5-6 digits one. That's least significant digit.

My example was 1 extra digit. But it was most significant digit. And channel 3 set up the same was perfect.

Also, in your example, DMM 1 would usually read higher than DMM 2 but still in spec. In the example channel 2 adds 10 most significant digits only because of CH1. In the same example setting CH1 to GND will get CH2 reading to go from 12 to 2 V RMS.

So no - it has nothing to do with ranges.

I'm sorry, but what I meant was that you are setting CH2 to a 160V range, so most significant digit is 100's. DMM is a bad example since I could not illustrate it well. I did, however, show you how I'd be measuring the signals that you set up, and I get results that are reasonable and within spec (I believe).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 27, 2016, 10:29:02 pm

...
6. Set CH2 to20V/div..

On CH1 I get  2.07 VRms and on CH2 that has NOTHING connected I read 37. 9V VRms  |O :-// :bullshit:


This part is confusing to me, so I will take a look tonight.

You also said that CH2 is set to 1V/div and you measure 1.9V RMS on CH2 with no input.

That's about the same error either way, so I wonder what would the actual RMS measurement be if you were feeding channel 2 with a signal more appropriate for the channel setup, such as 150V, or even 80V, or even 20V just to see if there is any effect. Why would there be?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 27, 2016, 10:51:07 pm

...
6. Set CH2 to20V/div..

On CH1 I get  2.07 VRms and on CH2 that has NOTHING connected I read 37. 9V VRms  |O :-// :bullshit:


This part is confusing to me, so I will take a look tonight.

You also said that CH2 is set to 1V/div and you measure 1.9V RMS on CH2 with no input.

That's about the same error either way, so I wonder what would the actual RMS measurement be if you were feeding channel 2 with a signal more appropriate for the channel setup, such as 150V, or even 80V, or even 20V just to see if there is any effect. Why would there be?

I'm sorry for the confusion.. lets try like this:

setup time base at 100 uS
connect cal to CH1  at 1V/div it'l be about 3 DIVs high and have about 2,06V RMS

CH2 will show 1.88 V RMS, thats two divs worth of data.... If you change V/DIVS on CH2 now, RMS voltage will be multiplied by V/DIVs
so 10V/DIV it'll be 18.8V and on 100mV it'l be 188 mv .. but always at approx.2 DIV of phantom trace data. That is 25% of full screen worth of error... Of course I'm talking only about RMS, no trace visible on the screen

And to make it interesting, if you go to CH1, and play with it's V/DIV, RMS error on CH2 changes... It seems it is connected to vertical size of SHOWN trace of CH1... the bigger CH1 is on the screen, bigger error on CH2...

I understand is not intuitive.. If you have time play with it a bit...

Regards,
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 27, 2016, 11:07:55 pm
Hi again...

I'm gonna try to explain one last time this RMS issue importancy, for newbies and such...

Let's say we want to check some audio amplifier with our brand new! ds1054z.

What bad can happen?. This is just simple audio work!.

If you trust your ds1054z, you are Mucked big time...  :-BROKE

Best wishes to all.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 28, 2016, 01:13:52 am
Thanks folks for all the efforts. It is all for learning something for me. I'm not sure how we can progress conversations that are simply one-sided. I've said I acknowledge the RMS issue when showing an erroneous measurement on a channel that has no input. One sided because nobody answers why that matters?

Meka is giving a good sample of data that seems reasonable. I would contend that the only sample that matters is the one with the scope showing 20V RMS and the meter 17.5V RMS as a best case, and that is because the tool is being used near its potential. I would not discount the other measurements, however, as they may actually illustrate the problem more specifically.

Anyway, with this best case sample, if we take the meter as absolute truth, is the scope showing data out of spec?

There are two questions in my post here. Dismiss them as you like and continue to parrot your POV, and hence we will not progress. Just keep in mind that I have conceded and acknowledge the issue as you've presented it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 28, 2016, 01:23:18 am
Thanks folks for all the efforts. It is all for learning something for me. I'm not sure how we can progress conversations that are simply one-sided. I've said I acknowledge the RMS issue when showing an erroneous measurement on a channel that has no input. One sided because nobody answers why that matters?

Meka is giving a good sample of data that seems reasonable. I would contend that the only sample that matters is the one with the scope showing 20V RMS and the meter 17.5V RMS as a best case, and that is because the tool is being used near its potential. I would not discount the other measurements, however, as they may actually illustrate the problem more specifically.

Anyway, with this best case sample, if we take the meter as absolute truth, is the scope showing data out of spec?

There are two questions in my post here. Dismiss them as you like and continue to parrot your POV, and hence we will not progress. Just keep in mind that I have conceded and acknowledge the issue as you've presented it.

It's  absolutely broken in RMS department.

Regards.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 28, 2016, 01:32:40 am
Meka, it does not help to show sxs measurements of two different instruments and just state that the better is your expectation. That is only because I am looking at specs and taking them at face value. I know the ds1054z can do it the same, and that is why I say it's a shame that there is this bug. But again, are those measurements out of spec? Are they, please...?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 28, 2016, 01:44:25 am
Meka, it does not help to show sxs measurements of two different instruments and just state that the better is your expectation. That is only because I am looking at specs and taking them at face value. I know the ds1054z can do it the same, and that is why I say it's a shame that there is this bug. But again, are those measurements out of spec? Are they, please...?

I don't know what Rigol spec about that sh:t, but i have Rigol DS5022M which about 8 years old still works as expected. Please click on my profile and see my other posts about this issue...

Btw. if you want to measure two signals RMS values correctly (mind 8bit ADC of course) regardless your horizontal or vertical settings, workaround setup like Ch1-Ch3 or Ch2-Ch4.
But full four channels... Errr. anything possible  |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on July 28, 2016, 03:39:24 am
I've said I acknowledge the RMS issue when showing an erroneous measurement on a channel that has no input. One sided because nobody answers why that matters?
Because we have no idea why it is happening, so we don't know what other situations will also cause erroneous measurements, so we can't trust the RMS function at all.

Quote
Anyway, with this best case sample, if we take the meter as absolute truth, is the scope showing data out of spec?
It's a meaningless question, because Rigol does not specify the operation of the RMS function (or most of the other functions of the scope for that matter).  We're left to figure it out for ourselves, which is what we are trying to do here.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 28, 2016, 05:16:01 am
Btw. I'm bored and seems unable to sleep, i just upgraded latest firmware (4.3SP2 > 4.4)... :scared:

1.Fastest waveform update i can see is approx. 60kHz at 50ns, dot mode, single ch.

2.Definitely, faster response on menus, settings, FFT and multiple channel situations.

3.FFT works nicer than before

4.Freeze bug gone

5.Math trace shift bug seems absent

6.Serial still works ;)

7.Intensity grading looks and adjusts nicer than before

Unfortunately RMS still pissing allover adjacent channels  :(

That's it for now.

Regards

Edit: Correction
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 28, 2016, 05:31:10 am
I understand what you folks are saying, but is the number outside the specification? I showed that the same measurement set up more reasonably is within spec. It's the same signal and same measurement.

If you take your trusty high accuracy DVMs and feed them 0.01 volts and have it set to a 100+V range, are you going to complain if one meter says 0.01 and another is 400% off (0.04)?

I totally understand that it is a software bug and could be fixed, but if both channels were closer in value yet still just as far off, then what? It's in spec! (I think anyway...)

I think you're missing the point... I'l try to explain, because his example is too elaborate and confusing..

Try this:

(This is with 10X probes and channels set for them)

1. Set timebase to 100 uSec/div..
2. Enable CH1 and CH2, DC coupling, and trigger on CH1, setup trigger to 1.5V to have a stable trace..
3. Set VRMS measurement on both CH1 and CH2..
4. Plug in the probe ONLY to CH1 and connect it to CAL. DO not connect anything to CH2..
5. Set CH1 to 1V/div..
6. Set CH2 to20V/div..

On CH1 I get  2.07 VRms and on CH2 that has NOTHING connected I read 37. 9V VRms  |O :-// :bullshit:
It gets even better... now disable CH1... it is still the same... Grounding the coupling or disconnecting the cable will make it go away...


This proves there is a spillover of data from CH1 to CH2 for VRMS... It measures about 10% less than CH1 in raw data, and multiplies that with vertical amplifier ratio.

This is not about how accurate is RMS algorithm and details like such...  :popcorn:
It is about the fact that CH2 is showing you data form ANOTHER channel while you don't have anything connected to it ...  |O :wtf:

Another thing, Per Vrms is good only for periodic signals... You need this broken RMS for noise, DC and such...  So yeah I need this fixed...

Regards..

I can duplicate this, and add a step to show the absurdity of it more clearly:



TEST SETUP



Once you have done all of those steps, we can do 2 steps to show how silly this bug is is very clearly:

Test 1:


Note: The second two attachments are GIFs.





Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 28, 2016, 05:47:14 am
Furthermore, you can adjust the CH2 vertical timebase, and you find that the erroneous value reported is just a ratio of the timebase, which itself is the minimum value of the CH1 Vrms (in my case):


CH2 TimebaseSmall (mV)Large (V)Large/Timebase
1501.931.93
2563.861.93
52679.671.93
1038719.31.93
2079138.61.93

Surely the first part of this is not a coincidence. I'm yet to determine if I think the second part (source of the error number is the minimum value of CH2 Vrms.

edit: It really does look like the exact value comes from a ratio between channel 1 and channel 2's MIN statistics reading. (Try turning on statistics and inspecting this yourself).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 28, 2016, 06:31:19 am
Thanks folks for all the efforts. It is all for learning something for me. I'm not sure how we can progress conversations that are simply one-sided. I've said I acknowledge the RMS issue when showing an erroneous measurement on a channel that has no input. One sided because nobody answers why that matters?

Meka is giving a good sample of data that seems reasonable. I would contend that the only sample that matters is the one with the scope showing 20V RMS and the meter 17.5V RMS as a best case, and that is because the tool is being used near its potential. I would not discount the other measurements, however, as they may actually illustrate the problem more specifically.

Anyway, with this best case sample, if we take the meter as absolute truth, is the scope showing data out of spec?

There are two questions in my post here. Dismiss them as you like and continue to parrot your POV, and hence we will not progress. Just keep in mind that I have conceded and acknowledge the issue as you've presented it.

Okay - I apologize for having dismissed your POV* so let's explore it. The scope's vertical DC Gain specs are +-3% FS for >10mV (This is the analog input spec - there is no "calculation specific" spec). We are at 2V RMS so amply satisfy the >10mV criterion (otherwise would be +-4%).

We have 3 (identical) signals on screen; CH1 @ 1V/div; CH2 & CH3 @ 20V/div. Since the Scope has 8 divisions, the FS voltage for CH1 is 8V FS while for CH2 & CH3 it is 160V FS.

CH1: The signal is 3Vpk-pk; so it takes 3/8 V/V FS so DC Gain accuracy is 1/3/8*3% = 8% accuracy
CH2&CH3: The signal is still 3Vpk-pk so it takes 3/160V FS so DC Gain accuracy is 160V/3V*3% = 160%

Indeed the scope operator for CH2 and CH3 should be fired immediately (Oy Vey - that is me). So the error (at max) should be 2.1213V * 1.6 =  3.4V (and indeed CH3 looks awful showing 2.86V RMS - well within Spec) but CH2 is horrific - nowhere near 12.4V which would mean a ~585% error.

Just for exercise: What would be the DC gain error that would result in 12.4V RMS reading? So remember we are at 160V FS and our signal is 3v pk-pk so 3 * 585% /160 =  10.9% DC Gain.

So the analog section does not (assuming the specs are correct) seem to be causing this - as does the fact that it seems to move with the triggering channel.

*In a sort of defense I'll state that - to me - it looked like a calculation issue - if only because the trace for CH2 does NOT look like it is 6X the trace for CH3; if it were a DC Gain error - the trace would have shown this. Hence it reeked of a logic/math error rather than a DC Gain error. Still not okay to dismiss other POVs though...   
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 28, 2016, 07:02:55 am
There is no DC error in channel data.. traces look ok... other measurements seem to be ok but I will be checking soon...
It is probably some stupid counter variable, global variable, array index or something stupid like that in RMS calc..
These things are made as running circular buffers, and when you have few of them its easy enough to not move pointer properly...
It might be that they used ready made RMS function or lib and did not implement it properly..

Any ways, should be easy enough to fix..

How do we make Rigol fix it ?  That is the question now...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 28, 2016, 08:04:02 am
There is no DC error in channel data.. traces look ok... other measurements seem to be ok but I will be checking soon...
It is probably some stupid counter variable, global variable, array index or something stupid like that in RMS calc..
These things are made as running circular buffers, and when you have few of them its easy enough to not move pointer properly...
It might be that they used ready made RMS function or lib and did not implement it properly..

Any ways, should be easy enough to fix..

How do we make Rigol fix it ?  That is the question now...

I sent it to Rigol a few days ago. I actually got a response - but before you get hopes high - a response that says where did I get the scope from? So since I got it from Tequipment I assume I'll get a follow up from Rigol NA sometimes in the near or mid or distant future.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on July 28, 2016, 08:06:45 am
There is no DC error in channel data.. traces look ok... other measurements seem to be ok but I will be checking soon...
It is probably some stupid counter variable, global variable, array index or something stupid like that in RMS calc..
These things are made as running circular buffers, and when you have few of them its easy enough to not move pointer properly...
It might be that they used ready made RMS function or lib and did not implement it properly..

Any ways, should be easy enough to fix..

How do we make Rigol fix it ?  That is the question now...

It might help if we can isolate an exact source of the particular number we're finding. In my case, I found this common ratio that was a single relationship between CH1 and CH2. (e.g., in my case, 1.93 was the minimum voltage).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2016, 09:23:03 am
It might help if we can isolate an exact source of the particular number we're finding. In my case, I found this common ratio that was a single relationship between CH1 and CH2. (e.g., in my case, 1.93 was the minimum voltage).

If it's some sort of circular buffer bug then that won't work.

But ... I don't believe it's would be a circular buffer bug though. We know it's working from "on-screen" data and there's really no reason for the on-screen data to be circular, ie. If the display is correct then the RMS should also be correct.

OTOH: Making a precise RMS measurement of a randomly chosen subset of a waveform on screen isn't easy. eg. If somebody puts 2.7 waveforms on screen then which part are we supposed to sum, exactly?  :-//

If it just depended on the number of waves on screen then it would be understandable. It doesn't do that though, it depends on other channels. The only answer I can think of as a programmer is there's an uninitialised variable somewhere, eg. Some value isn't initialized to zero at the start of the sum.

If Rigol is reading this then that's where to start looking.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2016, 09:27:27 am
This thread has really been sidetracked, there's been hardly any discussion of how great it is that all the major bugs seem to be fixed now.

There's no more lockups, the math is fixed... the scope is now at 99.999999% of its full potential. :-+

(Apart from the user interface paradigm of pushing a twisty knob to do everything)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on July 28, 2016, 09:56:27 am
So, just to simplify: the last update is really worth, right?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 28, 2016, 10:04:11 am
This thread has really been sidetracked, there's been hardly any discussion of how great it is that all the major bugs seem to be fixed now.

There's no more lockups, the math is fixed... the scope is now at 99.999999% of its full potential. :-+

(Apart from the user interface paradigm of pushing a twisty knob to do everything)

Koombiah. But then again if it is an easy fix to eck out even better results - why not?

 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2016, 10:32:34 am
So, just to simplify: the last update is really worth, right?

There doesn't seem to be any downsides to updating.

But ... the old curmudgeon in me would like to say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Don't upgrade just to see the version number change on screen. There's always a non-zero chance that a failed firmware update will brick a device (any device!)

If the bugs aren't affecting you and you don't need the new XY mode then wait for the next one. You can always apply this update if one day you need to use the math functions (or whatever).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2016, 10:36:04 am
This thread has really been sidetracked, there's been hardly any discussion of how great it is that all the major bugs seem to be fixed now.
Koombiah. But then again if it is an easy fix to eck out even better results - why not?

Sure, but three days ago the RMS thing even wasn't on the radar. The only things being discussed were the math offset and the measurements freezing.

It's amazing how fast things can change.  :-//


3.FFT works nicer than before

In what way?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 28, 2016, 11:02:49 am
Long-pressing the 'Measure' button clears all the measures :-)
LOL as soon I get to lab I'm gonna try it... Epic...

I read that in the manual now, press and hold measure to clear all measurements. But if you enable one (I enabled the last one), they all come back grayed out, except the last one enabled. The same thing if I use the All Items Delete button. So how do I get rid of them all and just enable only one again, without excess grayed out clutter coming back?

You use the "Select Item" menu option.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 28, 2016, 11:47:14 am
Thanks!  :-X
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 28, 2016, 02:02:02 pm
This thread has really been sidetracked, there's been hardly any discussion of how great it is that all the major bugs seem to be fixed now.
Koombiah. But then again if it is an easy fix to eck out even better results - why not?

Sure, but three days ago the RMS thing even wasn't on the radar. The only things being discussed were the math offset and the measurements freezing.

It's amazing how fast things can change.  :-//


3.FFT works nicer than before

In what way?

I sent it to Rigol a few days ago. I actually got a response - but before you get hopes high - a response that says where did I get the scope from? So since I got it from Tequipment I assume I'll get a follow up from Rigol NA sometimes in the near or mid or distant future.

Hi everone...

@Fungus

FFT is become sluggish  with 4.3SP2, in 4.4 more responsive and seems correct regarding RMS level (I didn't do detailed analysis yet)

@Assafl

Actually i'm contacted to Rigol Turkey in March about this RMS and other 4.3SP2 related issues. And i got responses too...

meka: houston we have a problem!

rigol: are you hacked your scope?, becasue if you did it, it's gonna out of warranty and scopes do this kind of problems when hacked. (trying to ditch warranty :box: )

meka: no, i'm not! (beacasue it's true, it came already updated from former user... in the background *UninstAll  ;D )

rigol: ok. please send your serial number and your problem description

meka: mailed full sysinfo and detailed explanation of all issues i know of in 4.3SP2, and told him if possible i wish return to former firmware asap (March 8 )

rigol: i'm sending your information to rigol germany (becasue we're closer to europe?  :P )

rigol: hi meka, rigol germany told this to me:  "Could you explain the problem with RMS measurement and FFT more in detail? Regarding the voltage level. Has he done a self-cal?" can you help me with more data? (March 15)

meka: i'm called rigol turkey directly and told him i have other scopes which don't have any problems like this. Again told him if possible i wish return to former firmware asap!

rigol: ok i'm gonna explain them your experince on this matter, but unfortunately there is no chance going back former firmware builds. Btw. they know about other issues and working on it (freeze bug, math bug etc.)

meka: ok. i'll wait then. And called about month later is there any update yet.

rigol: they cannot reproduce your issue in their devices (regarding what?  :wtf: )

meka: i'm very annoyed about this and uploaded a youtube video regarding RMS and FFT issue (April 16)

rigol: ok. i'm sending them your video link and information again.

meka: thanks again.

Btw. i'm called rigol turkey couple of times (most of my calls dropped or blocked), ask to is there any update yet and he said expected in beginning on June. And seems rigol China unable to see youtube videos, because website is blocked in China (how professional). I uploaded my video to another website which isn't blocked by Chinese gov. and send to him  my new link.

In first two weeks in June he directly blocked my calls (Some times he send me stupid automated sms ie. i'm out now, please call again later. Within 1 seconds later after my call dropped  ;D )

Then i hided my number  and called him again, he immediately answered (gotcha  >:D)... (July)
I cornered him down and unfortunately he said; "we are just selling their stuff like apple and orange, there is nothing i can do about it except wait for them to act  :-[  ." Then i asked him; can you please check your one of devices regarding this issue, if it's ok i'm willing to pay extra for exchange?. He said; Sorry, i can't do that.

This is my adventure with rigol so far.

Thanks for your patience and sorry about long post. 


Edit: Some date correction.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on July 28, 2016, 02:17:33 pm
So, just to simplify: the last update is really worth, right?

There doesn't seem to be any downsides to updating.

But ... the old curmudgeon in me would like to say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Don't upgrade just to see the version number change on screen. There's always a non-zero chance that a failed firmware update will brick a device (any device!)

If the bugs aren't affecting you and you don't need the new XY mode then wait for the next one. You can always apply this update if one day you need to use the math functions (or whatever).

I wasn't able to reproduce the freeze bug yet, so I'm not affraid of that. I'll just upgrade to this new version to have a nicer XY mode. I just want to know in which firmware version the RMS problem started, or if it is an issue since the beggining.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2016, 03:36:02 pm
I wasn't able to reproduce the freeze bug yet, so I'm not affraid of that.

Only 40% of people could reproduce it in the poll that was done here.

I'll just upgrade to this new version to have a nicer XY mode. I just want to know in which firmware version the RMS problem started, or if it is an issue since the beggining.

Probably since the beginning.

If you're on an older firmware you can easily check yours before upgrading. That way you'll know if upgrading will make it worse. All you need is two probes and the test signal on the front of the 'scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on July 28, 2016, 05:32:24 pm
I wasn't able to reproduce the freeze bug yet, so I'm not affraid of that.

Only 40% of people could reproduce it in the poll that was done here.

I'll just upgrade to this new version to have a nicer XY mode. I just want to know in which firmware version the RMS problem started, or if it is an issue since the beggining.

Probably since the beginning.

If you're on an older firmware you can easily check yours before upgrading. That way you'll know if upgrading will make it worse. All you need is two probes and the test signal on the front of the 'scope.

Thanks. I'll check that and if the RMS issue appear in my firmware version I'll upgrade it anyway. I haven't noticed it before, but I think I just got lucky by measuring only with one channel in use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on July 28, 2016, 05:51:41 pm
Thanks. I'll check that and if the RMS issue appear in my firmware version I'll upgrade it anyway. I haven't noticed it before, but I think I just got lucky by measuring only with one channel in use.

Meka77's post contrasting the RMS voltmeter and oscilloscope measurements makes me question the accuracy even when using one channel.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on July 28, 2016, 05:54:19 pm
Thanks. I'll check that and if the RMS issue appear in my firmware version I'll upgrade it anyway. I haven't noticed it before, but I think I just got lucky by measuring only with one channel in use.

Meka77's post contrasting the RMS voltmeter and oscilloscope measurements makes me question the accuracy even when using one channel.

I've allways been warned that you should never fully trust a scope voltage measure. They are good for "measure" voltage over time, not very accurate measuring just voltage, and those errors with just one channel doesn't seem so off to me, or am I seeing it wrong?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2016, 06:19:56 pm
Meka77's post contrasting the RMS voltmeter and oscilloscope measurements makes me question the accuracy even when using one channel.

I'm sure it doesn't help that the waveform is clipped at the bottom even though we've said about a million times that the Rigol works with on-screen data.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243899;image)

Even if it wasn't: It's a 8-bit DAC with a very sensitive, very high impedance input and a slight DC offset error. It can only ever be about 5% accurate.


The reading looks entirely reasonable to me when the wave isn't clipped.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=243911;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on July 28, 2016, 07:00:21 pm
I've allways been warned that you should never fully trust a scope voltage measure. They are good for "measure" voltage over time, not very accurate measuring just voltage, and those errors with just one channel doesn't seem so off to me, or am I seeing it wrong?

Those measurements should be accurate to within the oscilloscope specifications but they are not even that.  They are also not wrong in a consistent way which points to an algorithm or design problem instead of a calibration problem.  The stuff with phantom measurements on other channels is just broken.

There have been other discussions about measurement problems with these Rigol oscilloscopes where measurements change depending on trace positioning and scaling.  I suspect that is a problem of design where measurements are made on the display record instead of the acquisition record.

As far as the expected accuracy of a DSO, my old DSOs are all well within their specifications after warming up and automatic calibration.  So are my analog oscilloscopes which have measurement capability.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 28, 2016, 07:20:34 pm

I'm sure it doesn't help that the waveform is clipped at the bottom even though we've said about a million times that the Rigol works with on-screen data.

Even if it wasn't: It's a 8-bit DAC with a very sensitive, very high impedance input and a slight DC offset error. It can only ever be about 5% accurate.


The reading looks entirely reasonable to me when the wave isn't clipped.

@Fungus

I'm sorry but you are looking this completely wrong way...

UT181A multimer and scopes Ch2 is connected at amplifier OUTPUT TERMINAL, only Ch1 connected paralel to amplifier INPUT TERMINAL!!!

In the first picture amplifier volume pot at MINIMUM, so multimeter shows about 50mv RMS noise and 1054z Ch2 (blue) showing 10.3V RMS!!! (Suppose to show "Ch2's own RMS noise" x "probe attenuation setting" x "vertical div setting" + "amplifier's outpu noise" = 500mv approx!!!)

In the second picture amplifier volume pot at MAXIMUM, multimeter and scope are showing closer value, BEACUSE Ch1 IS GROUND COUPLED!!! (That means RMS phantom error voltage does not affect Ch2 anymore)  :--

Btw. signals never clipped any way, but 1054z's large font setting is chopping visible area of sinewave. ( Doesn't  accuracy depend on ADC full scale, i.e fit your signal 95 percent vertically for best accuracy level measurement in rigol's spec iirc 3 percent?)

Regards

Edit: Added clarity...
 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 28, 2016, 07:25:45 pm
I've allways been warned that you should never fully trust a scope voltage measure. They are good for "measure" voltage over time, not very accurate measuring just voltage, and those errors with just one channel doesn't seem so off to me, or am I seeing it wrong?

Those measurements should be accurate to within the oscilloscope specifications but they are not even that.  They are also not wrong in a consistent way which points to an algorithm or design problem instead of a calibration problem.  The stuff with phantom measurements on other channels is just broken.

There have been other discussions about measurement problems with these Rigol oscilloscopes where measurements change depending on trace positioning and scaling.  I suspect that is a problem of design where measurements are made on the display record instead of the acquisition record.

As far as the expected accuracy of a DSO, my old DSOs are all well within their specifications after warming up and automatic calibration.  So are my analog oscilloscopes which have measurement capability.

The first image that Fungus quoted is not technically clipped, the labels just overlay the trace. If you change the font size, I really hope that does not affect screen measurement data.

Out of spec? How do we calculate RMS of a DC offset sine wave? It's hard to tell because of the label overlay, but it looks like the sine wave is DC offset around 0 volts with a peak voltage of 3.6 divisions (0.720Vp). According to spec, the actual Vp could be  0.698mV to 0.742mV. Oops, it should be ±3% of full scale (±60mV), or 0.640mV to 0.780mV.

This is my understanding, I would translate the Vp range above into the below formula to see if we are out of spec. We do not know what the actual voltage is, however, so we can only verify the calculation:

RMS = SQRT(DC^2+Vp^2/2)

RMS = SQRT(0^2 + 0.720^2/2)

RMS = 0.509 mV

Is my understanding wrong? It does not seem all that bad considering I am interpreting a peak voltage from a fuzzy trace on an actual picture of an instrument display from the other side of the planet.

I forgot what the DMM is connected to, but it is set to measure AC and shows 54mV and the scope is in DC mode; just as an observation...

What about the second image? Out of spec too?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 28, 2016, 07:31:32 pm

In the second picture amplifier volume pot at MAXIMUM, multimeter and scope are showing closer value, BEACUSE Ch1 IS GROUND COUPLED!!! (That means RMS phantom error voltage does not affect Ch2 anymore)  :--
 

Why would you be unhappy with this result? Aside from reiterating the same bug over again, which we understand, the scope seems to make the measurement fairly well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Meka77 wd on July 28, 2016, 07:39:11 pm
With all respect i'll give up!

If you don't understand what i'm saying or showing, it must be me myself have a problem.
And i'm very sorry to share this confusing issue with you.

Whatever. Anyone curious about that problem click on my profile and read about it from my older posts.

I'm tired, and again i'm sorry.

Have a nice life. ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 28, 2016, 07:51:03 pm
With all respect i'll give up!

If you don't understand what i'm saying or showing, it must be me myself have a problem.
And i'm very sorry to share this confusing issue with you.

Whatever. Anyone curious about that problem click on my profile and read about it from my older posts.

I'm tired, and again i'm sorry.

Have a nice life. ;)


Meka, I don't think anyone is saying they do not see the problem. I am merely trying to point out a better way to set up for a measurement because of some of the wild claims. You pointed out several ways to work around the issue. The end result is that you can get an accurate measurement result. There are certain caveats and pitfalls that should not exist, but they do. It will be great when Rigol fixes it, and even when they do, my points will still be valid, and are valid for any scope.

I feel it is important to understand these things, and also address blanket statements that a result is out of spec. when in fact it is not. Other than the fact that you want to use channel 1 and 2, the fact that you have to ground ch1 to get an accurate result is merely an unfortunate caveat, the  :-- bug. The measurement from the DSO in this condition, however, is not  :-- IMO.

If you needed to use three channels with the simultaneous measurement, well then, there is no work around  :--
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 28, 2016, 09:17:03 pm
With all respect i'll give up!

If you don't understand what i'm saying or showing, it must be me myself have a problem.
And i'm very sorry to share this confusing issue with you.

Whatever. Anyone curious about that problem click on my profile and read about it from my older posts.

I'm tired, and again i'm sorry.

Have a nice life. ;)

Meka77 - I sent your bug to Rigol as well so I understand the problem.

But why is it so important to you? You know to measure CH1 & CH3. You know to be careful. What do you care what others think?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2016, 09:39:20 pm
It's a 8-bit DAC with a very sensitive, very high impedance input and a slight DC offset error. It can only ever be about 5% accurate.

The reading looks entirely reasonable to me when the wave isn't clipped.

@Fungus

I'm sorry but you are looking this completely wrong way...


Fair enough, but the point about 8-bit DAC, etc. still stands.

If you only turn on a single channel or if you only measure on channels 1 and 3 then are the RMS readings reasonable?

If you own a decent true RMS multimeter then make the RMS measurements with that.

Use the scope to look for distortions, clipping, etc., in the output.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 28, 2016, 10:16:30 pm
So, just to simplify: the last update is really worth, right?

There doesn't seem to be any downsides to updating.

It does seem like the new version is a good one from what I've seen thus far in several threads. The current RMS discussion seems to also occur on the SP1 version I'm using, so no change there. I may upgrade after I get some other projects out of the way.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 28, 2016, 11:10:01 pm
It's a 8-bit DAC with a very sensitive, very high impedance input and a slight DC offset error. It can only ever be about 5% accurate.

The reading looks entirely reasonable to me when the wave isn't clipped.

@Fungus

I'm sorry but you are looking this completely wrong way...


Fair enough, but the point about 8-bit DAC, etc. still stands.

If you only turn on a single channel or if you only measure on channels 1 and 3 then are the RMS readings reasonable?

If you own a decent true RMS multimeter then make the RMS measurements with that.

Use the scope to look for distortions, clipping, etc., in the output (ie. what it's meant to be used for).

You are repeating yourself... It is tiresome and you are not right.....

First let's see specs from manual:

DC Gain Accuracy: <10 mV: ±4% full scale >10 mV: ±3% full scale
DC Offset Accuracy: ±0.1 div±2 mV±1% offset value
Channel to Channel Isolation: DC to maximum bandwidth: >40 dB

This means following: no 5% is not right , it has to be less than ±4% full of scale on sensitivities of less than 10mV/DIV, and better than  ±3% of full scale on more than 10mV/DIV...

And 8 bit ADC converter can be 0.00001% accurate... It will have a resolution of 256 discrete steps form 0 to max value. But every single step can in theory be 1 ppm accurate.. It would have to have fantastic linearity but yeah it can be that accurate... Kelvin Varley divider with 3 decades will have a resolution of one thousand but can be sub PPM accurate on each of it's steps...

And I checked , each channel individually does fairly good RMS... 2.09 RMS applied to input (that is amplitude of scope cal on my Rigol, measured by separate 6.5 digit true rms voltmeter) shows 2.09 to 2.06 on all channels, each by itself... So accuracy of RMS measurement in not a problem and quite within scope specs...
Offset is also quite better that guaranteed specs..


Problem is in the third spec: channel separation.... Channel separation should be on order of 10000x, meaning that 10000 mV (10V) connected to one channel, should not induce (yes induce, trough parasitic capacitors and inductances inside scope) more than 1mV of phantom signal in other channels, and that's from DC to 100MHz...

And looking at the traces it seems that scope does that better then specs too, electrically at least.....

Except in RMS measurements.
In which, channel separation between consecutive channel seems to be cca 7.7dB (cca 2.43 times voltage difference) because of stupid software bug...

You connect 2.09 VRMS on  CH1 and on CH2 with nothing connected you measure 854mV. That is 0,854 of a division, 10.6% of  error induced by software bug..

So there you are.. No , it's not within scope specs.

And my scope does it from CH1 to CH2, from CH2 to CH3, and CH3 to CH4.  CH4 does not interfere with other channels.

So if you need to measure RMS, you can do it with only 2 channels simultaneously, CH1 and CH3,  CH1 and CH4 or CH2 and CH4.. All other combos will have errors..

And if you work with switching PSU design and repair, RMS on a scope is used a lot... especially on several MHz and up, and waveforms with high crest ratios and complicated shapes , where no multi-meters will have enough bandwidth.. On those scope with good RMS implementation and 3-5 % percent error is much better than 30% errors you will get with multi-meter..
And I don't have one of those fancy thermal RMS converter based types with 100MHz bandwith that could do the job..

So none of your reasons to downplay this have merit.. I know you just want to make sure all is right and precise and relevant and such..
Thank you for a nice discussion that I hope now resulted in good explanation of what is wrong and why this is important and need to be fixed.. Much more than that HUUGe "pulses/pluses" bug  :-DD

Attached are photos of screen and RMS measurements, voltage applied to each channel separately.. note the spillover to following channel.. All channels were set equally...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on July 29, 2016, 03:25:11 am
@2n3055:
Thank you for your thoughtful and correct discussion of this RMS issue. It's nice to see someone who understands the difference between "precision" and "accuracy" and who is willing to discuss the shortcomings of the scope rather than turning a blind eye to them.

But there is one thing: You can make nice screenshots of your scope very easily, simply and clearly by using several different methods. The resulting screenshot (if you select the PNG default format) is less than 1/5 the filesize of the photos you posted and displays at a reasonable and easy to read 800 pixels wide. Just put a USB thumbdrive into the front panel jack and press the green "print" button underneath the Help button.

Of course it may take a while for the image to be saved to the USB drive.... but the result is generally much better than taking a photograph of the screen.

 :-+

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitwelder on July 29, 2016, 05:41:43 am
Actually i'm contacted to Rigol Turkey in March about this RMS and other 4.3SP2 related issues. And i got responses too...

meka: houston we have a problem!

rigol: are you hacked your scope?, becasue if you did it, it's gonna out of warranty and scopes do this kind of problems when hacked. (trying to ditch warranty :box: )

meka: no, i'm not! (beacasue it's true, it came already updated from former user... in the background *UninstAll  ;D )

rigol: ok. please send your serial number and your problem description

Ah, so Rigol helpdesk script is currently like:

1) Greetings
2) ask "Have you hacked your scope?"
3) if NO, ask "What's your problem?"

Interesting...  :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 29, 2016, 06:22:58 am
Channel to Channel Isolation: DC to maximum bandwidth: >40 dB

...

Problem is in the third spec: channel separation.... Channel separation should be on order of 10000x, meaning that 10000 mV (10V) connected to one channel, should not induce (yes induce, trough parasitic capacitors and inductances inside scope) more than 1mV of phantom signal in other channels, and that's from DC to 100MHz...

And looking at the traces it seems that scope does that better then specs too, electrically at least.....

Except in RMS measurements.
In which, channel separation between consecutive channel seems to be cca 7.7dB (cca 2.43 times voltage difference) because of stupid software bug...
...
So none of your reasons to downplay this have merit.. I know you just want to make sure all is right and precise and relevant and such..
Thank you for a nice discussion that I hope now resulted in good explanation of what is wrong and why this is important and need to be fixed.. Much more than that HUUGe "pulses/pluses" bug  :-DD

A few notes:
1. That the 3rd spec is the problem is not saying it like it is. The specification is for the analog front end (where noise floors are established and most channel leakage are created). In fact - the trace for CH2 looks fine even if the RMS text has an error. The problem is not in the 3rd spec - it is in the mathematical function that does the RMS calculation.

Once Math gets involved (any math) there can be a dependency between channels. For example, A+B or AxB or any other function negates the 40dB for the participating channels.

2. In my screenshot I picked a scenario in which the error was over 500% - clearly unacceptable. Everyone on this forum does (or should) accept that a 500% error is not right. While the signal no longer takes up the FS - I have shown in another post that the number would need a worse than 10% DC Gain for worst case scenario.

3. Nobody is down playing - (I even sent this to Rigol and will resend my email if I don't hear back from them) - I think the question is what do you do in the meantime. Is this scope No Good? Depends. Certainly, if you must have the ability to measure 4 channels RMS - then this scope, with current firmware, is NO GOOD TO YOU. If you can do with less channels, then I guess what we "down players" (as you call them/us) say is PLEASE DO NOT MEASURE RMS using CHX and CHX+1 until (and if) Rigol issues a software fix. 

For me, I personally think all scopes are SH*T - they all have quirks, and you learn to work around them. But this is based on my experience working at a university fab and then at a defense research lab both with unlimited funds (10 years of working with Tek and HP and Anritsu and B&K and many other brands) - over time realizing - or being mentored to realize - that getting a useful physical property from a DMM or a Scope is always hard and needs attention to endless details for the measuring chain. Good research lab rats are always 100% sceptics - for a good reason.   

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 29, 2016, 07:02:18 am
@2n3055:

But there is one thing: You can make nice screenshots of your scope very easily, simply and clearly by using several different methods. The resulting screenshot (if you select the PNG default format) is less than 1/5 the filesize of the photos you posted and displays at a reasonable and easy to read 800 pixels wide. Just put a USB thumbdrive into the front panel jack and press the green "print" button underneath the Help button.

Of course it may take a while for the image to be saved to the USB drive.... but the result is generally much better than taking a photograph of the screen.

 :-+

Thanks for info , i know that, this was quicker  :-DD :popcorn:

Nice to met you, cheers!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 29, 2016, 08:02:35 am
Channel to Channel Isolation: DC to maximum bandwidth: >40 dB

...

Problem is in the third spec: channel separation.... Channel separation should be on order of 10000x, meaning that 10000 mV (10V) connected to one channel, should not induce (yes induce, trough parasitic capacitors and inductances inside scope) more than 1mV of phantom signal in other channels, and that's from DC to 100MHz...

And looking at the traces it seems that scope does that better then specs too, electrically at least.....

Except in RMS measurements.
In which, channel separation between consecutive channel seems to be cca 7.7dB (cca 2.43 times voltage difference) because of stupid software bug...
...
So none of your reasons to downplay this have merit.. I know you just want to make sure all is right and precise and relevant and such..
Thank you for a nice discussion that I hope now resulted in good explanation of what is wrong and why this is important and need to be fixed.. Much more than that HUUGe "pulses/pluses" bug  :-DD

A few notes:
1. That the 3rd spec is the problem is not saying it like it is. The specification is for the analog front end (where noise floors are established and most channel leakage are created). In fact - the trace for CH2 looks fine even if the RMS text has an error. The problem is not in the 3rd spec - it is in the mathematical function that does the RMS calculation.

Once Math gets involved (any math) there can be a dependency between channels. For example, A+B or AxB or any other function negates the 40dB for the participating channels.

3. Nobody is down playing - (I even sent this to Rigol and will resend my email if I don't hear back from them) - I think the question is what do you do in the meantime. Is this scope No Good? Depends. Certainly, if you must have the ability to measure 4 channels RMS - then this scope, with current firmware, is NO GOOD TO YOU. If you can do with less channels, then I guess what we "down players" (as you call them/us) say is PLEASE DO NOT MEASURE RMS using CHX and CHX+1 until (and if) Rigol issues a software fix. 

For me, I personally think all scopes are SH*T - they all have quirks, and you learn to work around them. But this is based on my experience working at a university fab and then at a defense research lab both with unlimited funds (10 years of working with Tek and HP and Anritsu and B&K and many other brands) - over time realizing - or being mentored to realize - that getting a useful physical property from a DMM or a Scope is always hard and needs attention to endless details for the measuring chain. Good research lab rats are always 100% sceptics - for a good reason.   

Hi, thanks for an interesting points.. Exactly on spot.. So let me answer you :

1. You are actually correct as I did point that out... But in the same time you're not. You are correct about problem not being analog and not seen on trace, I said that.. If you don't use RMS all is fine..
But for the RMS measurement , what we see is a channel separation error.. Except for RMS parasitic influence happens in software...
How come I have this attitude: If you buy a separate RMS voltmeter, you don't care what signal path it has and where correction and calibration is done. From BNC to screen, all is the same to you.. Accuracy and all other specs apply to results as seen on the screen.. Who screw up, software or hardware guys, is company's problem.. To me instrument is not within specs..
And I know that is how MY customers look at my products...  Don't get me wrong, it's not that I say what you say is stupid, it 's just not seeing the whole picture.. ;)

A note about mesurements and math.. Measurements and math in this case are used in Rigol terminology context.. Measurements are "thingies" you can quick access on the left of the screen and trough <Measure> button. These are exclusively SINGLE channel measurements. And RMS is one of them and no channel interaction should be possible..
Math, as accessed by pressing <Math> button is normal channel mathematics, that can get quite crazy, and can have any result between minus infinite to plus infinite, depending on creativity of said mathematician.. We're not touching any of that here....  :phew:

2. I have no comment

3. Is actually the source of misunderstanding here and a reason for the lenght of this discussion. It is because there are several issues here:

- Firstly, thank you fro reporting a bug to Rigol.. Much appreciated..
- Secondly, I newer said scope was crap or unusable.. I'we been doing this for more than 35 years.. I worked with scopes that didn't have cursor measurements, to the fancy digital mixed signal ones.. I know how to improvise to make do with what I have. And as you said right, now that I know about bug, i will find a way to measure it (i have another scope if nothing else). But it should be fixed anyways and it seems we all agree on that.
- Personally I think scopes are magical machines that makes electronics feel alive.... But I don't trust them blindly...
To be honest in general work, I usually don't pay attention to last digit of measurement on any instrument as a general rule...  Precision measurement is a complicated process... Scopes are more like 3 1/2 multi-meters for general troubleshooting, to check things approximately... Is it oscillating ?...I check wtih scope... Ok it does, let me connect a counter to see what EXACT frequency is that...

Measuring anything to precision must be controlled experiment, and properly designed..
But I digress.. 

Anyways, thanks for a discussion, despite misunderstanding, i do think we pretty much agree on conclusions here, despite coming from a different point of view..

To reiterate, scope great, RMS bad, need fix RMS, make scope more great... I think even Google translate could translate this to chinese  :-DD

P.S. When writing this I pressed something  |O and it got posted incomplete... I went back and finished..  Sorry for that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on July 29, 2016, 08:56:04 am
Problem is in the third spec: channel separation.... Channel separation should be on order of 10000x, meaning that 10000 mV (10V) connected to one channel, should not induce (yes induce, trough parasitic capacitors and inductances inside scope) more than 1mV of phantom signal in other channels, and that's from DC to 100MHz...

You made a mistake here. 40dB = 10000x in terms of power ratio.
It is, however, 100x in terms of voltage ratio...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 29, 2016, 10:43:03 am
Actually i'm contacted to Rigol Turkey in March about this RMS and other 4.3SP2 related issues. And i got responses too...

meka: houston we have a problem!

rigol: are you hacked your scope?, becasue if you did it, it's gonna out of warranty and scopes do this kind of problems when hacked. (trying to ditch warranty :box: )

meka: no, i'm not! (beacasue it's true, it came already updated from former user... in the background *UninstAll  ;D )

rigol: ok. please send your serial number and your problem description

Ah, so Rigol helpdesk script is currently like:

1) Greetings
2) ask "Have you hacked your scope?"
3) if NO, ask "What's your problem?"

Interesting...  :D
Not really.
Happened all the time when everybody wanted to root their smartphone and threatened to sue the retail store and the manufacturer when we found out (after they lied to us) and refused to repair them under warranty.
You have modified the software. We have no idea of what else you did when you touched where you weren't supposed to *washing both hands*


(To be fair the reason was that everybody rooted their phone not because of MUH FREEDOM but because they read on the interned that they could play better games by rooting and becoming super hackers like neo in the matrix, by then installing a piece of software that controlled the voltage applied to the core.. and so their crappy phones would crap out from months of constant overheating)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 29, 2016, 11:47:00 am
Problem is in the third spec: channel separation.... Channel separation should be on order of 10000x, meaning that 10000 mV (10V) connected to one channel, should not induce (yes induce, trough parasitic capacitors and inductances inside scope) more than 1mV of phantom signal in other channels, and that's from DC to 100MHz...

You made a mistake here. 40dB = 10000x in terms of power ratio.
It is, however, 100x in terms of voltage ratio...
Absolutely correct Karel.. thanks!! It was late, im defense...  |O  But all reasoning is nevertheless correct..
Cheers!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on July 29, 2016, 11:56:11 am
Happened all the time when everybody wanted to root their smartphone and threatened to sue the retail store and the manufacturer when we found out (after they lied to us) and refused to repair them under warranty.
You have modified the software. We have no idea of what else you did when you touched where you weren't supposed to *washing both hands*
It's not the same. You haven't modified the software in an undocumented way, you just fed it a license code, which is an entirely different matter. Of course it would be a problem (and real "hacking") if you patched the firmware, for example, in order to change a logo or whatever. That would be a Modification (capital M intentional).

It means that you are not entitled to complain about a serial decode failure unless you actually purchased the license.

And those warnings about voiding warranty when you update the firmware firmware following manufacturer's instructions? I am sure it wouldn't stand in court.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fleetz on July 29, 2016, 02:20:55 pm
Pretty much sold on buying a DS1054Z scope and doing the upgrade hack.

Where is the best place to buy a DS1054Z from? I have looked at your reviews Dave and you refer to $399 all the time.....I assume $399AUD? Where from?

Cheers,

Fleetz
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 29, 2016, 02:38:44 pm
@Fleetz

If you are in Australia Emona Instruments are the best option, the DS-1054Z is $579 AUD plus 10% GST so round $640 odd, I can't link from this device but you can Google them, the $399 price referred to was in US dollars.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fleetz on July 29, 2016, 03:16:43 pm
@Fleetz

If you are in Australia Emona Instruments are the best option, the DS-1054Z is $579 AUD plus 10% GST so round $640 odd, I can't link from this device but you can Google them, the $399 price referred to was in US dollars.

Cheers Muttley...never can work out why we pay a premium for the same products here in OZ? I get exchange rates and shipping etc, but alway seem well short of explaining the delta in prices.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 29, 2016, 03:32:07 pm
The same concerns were raised a while ago and I think it was earlier in this particular thread with a valid response from John South at Emona, there are import duties and other taxes they have to pay on top.

Take a look at reply 1062 on page 43 of this thread. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 29, 2016, 05:15:55 pm
Happened all the time when everybody wanted to root their smartphone and threatened to sue the retail store and the manufacturer when we found out (after they lied to us) and refused to repair them under warranty.
You have modified the software. We have no idea of what else you did when you touched where you weren't supposed to *washing both hands*
It's not the same.

Yes it is. The license agreement vou have agreed to says so. If you modify the firmware it is at your own risk, void warranty. You don't like that? Go deal with someone else

Quote
It means that you are not entitled to complain about a serial decode failure unless you actually purchased the license.
Makes totally sense. And that's also why there is an evaluation period of 60 hours ("Try Before You Buy")
Quote
And those warnings about voiding warranty when you update the firmware firmware following manufacturer's instructions? I am sure it wouldn't stand in court.
i'm afraid it's up to you (or to your government) to verify that (AGCOM here does that sort of things)
Actually i see their point. Upgrading the firmware is done at your own risk... The device is working, after all!!
If you've ever written a bootloader you will know that things can go very badly despite all the security measures... best thing would be having a flash programmer and flash the uncrypted image but would you do that? would you give the code away just like that? I wouldn't for many projects.

But that's more to cover their asses on case of what you called Modifications with a capital M, they will usually charge a nominal fee... or nothing at all (plus the shipping of course)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 29, 2016, 07:25:57 pm
The following discussion about specs, how to interpret them, and how they are to put into perspective is gold. I very much appreciate all that. I had not even brought into the discussion DC offset and channel separation, nor how to interpret that value, which I was wondering anyway. Thanks again. Still love the scope too...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on July 29, 2016, 09:32:29 pm
The license agreement vou have agreed to says so. If you modify the firmware it is at your own risk, void warranty. You don't like that? Go deal with someone else

Maybe that's Italian law, but it's not generally true.

First, most jurisdictions have warranty laws that override EULAs and similar one sided non-contracts.

Also, in many places, in order for a modification to void the warranty, the manufacturer has to show that the modification caused the failure.

For example, here's an article about US warranty law:
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/warranty-void-if-removed-stickers-are-illegal (http://motherboard.vice.com/read/warranty-void-if-removed-stickers-are-illegal)

(Updating firmware or entering license codes is not exactly the same as removing a sticker, but if the manufacturer can't establish a logical connection between the modification and the failure, they can't legally deny warranty coverage.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thomastheo on July 29, 2016, 10:32:14 pm
The E.U. directive 1999/44/EC concerning the rights of the consumer with regard to warranty, among other things, stipulates that it is not possible for a EULA or something similar to deny the consumer the right to warranty in such a case. There have been multiple court cases in various European countries that have served to show this is the case, often regarding the 'jailbreaking' of iphones and the like. Unfortunately, having a right and by extension using that right is not always possible without a fight, but at least for the EU market, you *should* officially be able to hack the software without losing your warranty, no matter what the manufacturer claims or what you might agree to as a consumer before or after a purchase.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 29, 2016, 11:28:38 pm
as european we are subject to those directives, but *should*..
that's the magic word.

there are many things that *should* or *should not* be but they are/aren't anyway. going to court over it usually, but not always, clear the situation

Or at least that is what happens here
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thomastheo on July 29, 2016, 11:57:48 pm
Yeah, agreed. What good is a warranty for a 400e scope if you have to go to court to get it? But hey, things will improve with time I hope. It's important to remember though that here in the EU, the company you bought the end product from is responsible for honoring the warranty, and not Rigol for example, so choose carefully where you place your order. I've had great success dealing with Batronix (DE) in that regard, and chose them over a supplier in my own country because of their reputation for good service.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on July 30, 2016, 06:16:01 am
Usually you will talk to a manager and deny any allegations that the problem is due (or related to) the hack. Tell them you were testing if these features worked for you and offer that they can remove them (just like you intended to) with Uninstall command (had the scope not died).

That is the single most important thing. That the failure is not related to the hack - so if you problem is memory - don't complain about the 24mpts memory - complain about 12. 

BTW - That is why Apple does whatever is in its power to brick Jailbroken phones. The bricking is due to the hacking - if it wasn't hacked it would be bricked.

Now if the cellphone is Jailbroken but the mouthpiece dies - they have to fix it under warranty. Under most laws today - that is.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LokiChaos on July 30, 2016, 06:50:20 am
I've recently acquired a 1054Z and I love it.  I've been playing with it, messing with the functionality and trying to replicate bugs.  I expect everything to have bugs, but I want to be sure I know what they look like and how to reproduce them so that I am able to recognize them should they occur when I am actually taking a measurement. 

The RMS bug seems to be the major remaining issue since the last firmware update (which I have done) and I noticed something odd with it.  I'm using the 4 probes that came with it on the pins of a 47ohm resistor and am feeding a 1kHz sine wave from a function gen (yeah, a cheap FY3200S).  The Vpp is 4.8V, so the Vrms should be ~1.71V.  I can reproduce the bug just fine, I get 1.69V, 1.81V, 1.82V, 1.83V for the RMS on CH 1-4 respectively (My EEVBlog meter reads 1.680V).  Nothing new or interesting there, Ch1 is correct and the other 3 are high.  I can disconnect the probe for channel N and N+1 drops down to 1.69V.  Again, nothing new, exactly as reported by others.  However, when I disable channel N with the probe connected the relay clicks and the trace disappears, however the value on CH N+1 doesn't drop!  I can even physically disconnect the probe after the channel has been turned off and the "extra" is still appearing in CH N+1.  If I turn CH N back on (without reconnecting the probe), CH N+1 then drops to ~1.69V (±0.02 or so).

This I think cements that it is truly a problem in software, and some value somehow bleeding over.

I can take screen shots, but I think this table would be clear enough, and more concise. 
NB: All channels on, All probes connected, triggering off CH 1 and all values are the Rms measurements.
Code: [Select]
CH1    CH2    CH3    CH4
1.69V  1.81V  1.82V  1.82V
Disable Ch2
1.69V  *****  1.82V  1.82V
Disconnect Ch2 probe
1.69V  *****  1.82V  1.82V
Enable Ch2 probe (still disconnected)
1.69V  691mV  1.69V  1.82V
Reconnect Ch2 probe
1.69V  1.81V  1.82V  1.82V

Same as above, but performing the same cycle with Ch3
1.69V  1.81V  1.82V  1.82V
1.69V  1.81V  *****  1.82V
1.69V  1.81V  *****  1.82V
1.69V  1.81V  683mV  1.69V
1.69V  1.81V  1.82V  1.82V

Same as the first two, except I moved the trigger to Ch4
and am performing the cycle with Ch1
1.69V  1.81V  1.82V  1.82V
*****  1.81V  1.82V  1.82V
*****  1.81V  1.82V  1.82V
27.8mV 1.67V  1.82V  1.82V
1.69V  1.81V  1.82V  1.82V
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on July 31, 2016, 01:39:11 pm
Just updated my MSO1104Z-S with the latest firmware. Everything went as expected, the scope is responsive and the "liberated features" are still there.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on July 31, 2016, 02:09:34 pm
The E.U. directive 1999/44/EC concerning the rights of the consumer with regard to warranty, among other things, stipulates that it is not possible for a EULA or something similar to deny the consumer the right to warranty in such a case. There have been multiple court cases in various European countries that have served to show this is the case, often regarding the 'jailbreaking' of iphones and the like. Unfortunately, having a right and by extension using that right is not always possible without a fight, but at least for the EU market, you *should* officially be able to hack the software without losing your warranty, no matter what the manufacturer claims or what you might agree to as a consumer before or after a purchase.

So you go to court, and the courts have to decide between
In the absence of impartial evidence, which will they choose to believe?

You will increase your chances if you can find an independent expert willing to testify to your competence and actions; good luck with that.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 31, 2016, 05:05:29 pm
Yeah, agreed. What good is a warranty for a 400e scope if you have to go to court to get it? But hey, things will improve with time I hope. It's important to remember though that here in the EU, the company you bought the end product from is responsible for honoring the warranty, and not Rigol for example, so choose carefully where you place your order. I've had great success dealing with Batronix (DE) in that regard, and chose them over a supplier in my own country because of their reputation for good service.
thought that it was the manufacturer for the first year* (in this case Rigol Technologies EU GmbH, if the scope is an "european" model and it is not imported from outside the union) and the seller for the following years*

*unless you could and have bought extended warranty period from either one, if possible
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on July 31, 2016, 11:28:29 pm
Hi there,

new to the forum, I registered to throw my hat in the RMS bug arena.
So, I happen to be the incarnation of laziness and my scope (1054Z) is still unhacked and with the firmware it came from the factory more than a year ago.
This means 00.04.02.SP4 (which, I guess, is v00.04.02.03.00).

I did try this verbatim

1. Set timebase to 100 uSec/div..
2. Enable CH1 and CH2, DC coupling, and trigger on CH1, setup trigger to 1.5V to have a stable trace..
3. Set VRMS measurement on both CH1 and CH2..
4. Plug in the probe ONLY to CH1 and connect it to CAL. DO not connect anything to CH2..
5. Set CH1 to 1V/div..
6. Set CH2 to20V/div..

and I do not experience wild values for the RMS voltage on channel 2.
On the contrary, while ch1 is rock solid a 2.10 Vrms, ch2 at 20 V/div (and no probe connected to that channel) shows a rms voltage of 566 mV. Not exactly nil but I believe it to be in line with the background noise and computation errors at that scale. (at 100 V/div the reading becomes 2.83 V)
With the probe connected to channel 2 and to the CAL output, I get at 20 V/div a RMS voltage of 2.04V (which goes to stable 2.10 V at 1V/div)

Did I miss something, or is this proof that the RMS bug has been introduced in later versions of the firmware?
Is there anybody that can confirm or deny this?

(I wanted to update the firmware to the latest version to get the better X-Y mode but now I am doubtful)


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: drdanke on August 01, 2016, 12:23:18 am
I know the fft function of the DS1054Z is very limited, but what kind of stuff would it still be useful for?  Can anyone give any examples where the fft function would still be adequate?  Would it be of any use on a guitar effects pedal circuit (9-volt preamp circuit) ?   Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on August 01, 2016, 02:20:19 am
I know the fft function of the DS1054Z is very limited, but what kind of stuff would it still be useful for?  Can anyone give any examples where the fft function would still be adequate?  Would it be of any use on a guitar effects pedal circuit (9-volt preamp circuit) ?   Thanks!


It is not very limited. The FFT when taken from memory (only certain timebases) is very good. You can also use the trace version with PC software here (http://hackaday.com/2015/09/22/a-better-spectrum-analyzer-for-your-rigol-scope/) and/or pull all of the data points from memory (very slow, but it works), and you can get a great result.

The main limitation is the 8-bit ADC, and this can be partially overcome by hires or averaging mode.

You can use it for all non-serious spectrum analysis stuff, like checking for resonances in function generators, on power supplies, on audio, etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 01, 2016, 04:26:28 am
I know the fft function of the DS1054Z is very limited, but what kind of stuff would it still be useful for?  Can anyone give any examples where the fft function would still be adequate?  Would it be of any use on a guitar effects pedal circuit (9-volt preamp circuit) ?   Thanks!
It is not very limited.

You can use it for all non-serious spectrum analysis stuff, like checking for resonances in function generators, on power supplies, on audio, etc.
Yep. Just because there's better FFTs out there it doesn't mean the DS1054Z FFT is useless. It does a good enough job for many things.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LokiChaos on August 01, 2016, 04:27:38 am
It is not very limited. The FFT when taken from memory (only certain timebases) is very good. You can also use the trace version with PC software here (http://hackaday.com/2015/09/22/a-better-spectrum-analyzer-for-your-rigol-scope/) and/or pull all of the data points from memory (very slow, but it works), and you can get a great result.

The main limitation is the 8-bit ADC, and this can be partially overcome by hires or averaging mode.

You can use it for all non-serious spectrum analysis stuff, like checking for resonances in function generators, on power supplies, on audio, etc.

I seem to be able to get this running on Linux (Gentoo specifically), however PyDSR, sigrok, and DSremote all seem to not be able to communicate with my scope over USB.  I know it is not simply a permissions issue.  DSremote works over LAN.

DSremote worked before I upgraded to the latest firmware.  Any Linux using 1054Z owners have any ideas?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: drdanke on August 01, 2016, 04:34:11 am
I know the fft function of the DS1054Z is very limited, but what kind of stuff would it still be useful for?  Can anyone give any examples where the fft function would still be adequate?  Would it be of any use on a guitar effects pedal circuit (9-volt preamp circuit) ?   Thanks!


It is not very limited. The FFT when taken from memory (only certain timebases) is very good. You can also use the trace version with PC software here (http://hackaday.com/2015/09/22/a-better-spectrum-analyzer-for-your-rigol-scope/) and/or pull all of the data points from memory (very slow, but it works), and you can get a great result.

The main limitation is the 8-bit ADC, and this can be partially overcome by hires or averaging mode.

You can use it for all non-serious spectrum analysis stuff, like checking for resonances in function generators, on power supplies, on audio, etc.

Wow, thanks for the heads up on the PyDSA software (better spectrum analyzer for your Rigol).  I didn't even know it existed, and will definitely check it out.  I hear so many people saying the fft function is useless, but it's good to hear that it is indeed useful, or at least, can be..  Thanks again!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on August 01, 2016, 09:43:36 am
Hi there,

new to the forum, I registered to throw my hat in the RMS bug arena.
So, I happen to be the incarnation of laziness and my scope (1054Z) is still unhacked and with the firmware it came from the factory more than a year ago.
This means 00.04.02.SP4 (which, I guess, is v00.04.02.03.00).

I did try this verbatim

1. Set timebase to 100 uSec/div..
2. Enable CH1 and CH2, DC coupling, and trigger on CH1, setup trigger to 1.5V to have a stable trace..
3. Set VRMS measurement on both CH1 and CH2..
4. Plug in the probe ONLY to CH1 and connect it to CAL. DO not connect anything to CH2..
5. Set CH1 to 1V/div..
6. Set CH2 to20V/div..

and I do not experience wild values for the RMS voltage on channel 2.
On the contrary, while ch1 is rock solid a 2.10 Vrms, ch2 at 20 V/div (and no probe connected to that channel) shows a rms voltage of 566 mV. Not exactly nil but I believe it to be in line with the background noise and computation errors at that scale. (at 100 V/div the reading becomes 2.83 V)
With the probe connected to channel 2 and to the CAL output, I get at 20 V/div a RMS voltage of 2.04V (which goes to stable 2.10 V at 1V/div)

Did I miss something, or is this proof that the RMS bug has been introduced in later versions of the firmware?
Is there anybody that can confirm or deny this?

(I wanted to update the firmware to the latest version to get the better X-Y mode but now I am doubtful)

You should connect both channels to the CAL terminal to see the bug.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on August 01, 2016, 10:59:37 am
You should connect both channels to the CAL terminal to see the bug.

The above procedure said not to (but it's not the first time I misread instructions).
Anyway, I did that too, and I get RMS values that are in line with what expected. 2.04 V on channel 2 with 20V/div.

(https://s32.postimg.org/k3xghts6d/DS1_Z_Quick_Print3.png)

(By the way, there must be a bug in the web platform: the attached imaged was 'viewed 92 times' 1 second ufter uploading...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on August 01, 2016, 11:37:09 am
The RMS bug was first introduced with firmware version 00.04.03.01.05 from 2015-06-16. It had been discussed exhaustively about a year ago already (for the new owners of a DS1000Z  ;) ). The only disappointment is that Rigol didn't fix it in the recent update. So no need to get nervous about that now, all of those who installed the mentioned update learned to live with that bug and surely will survive the next several months until Rigol comes up with a fix (I'm quite optimistic they will...).

Cheers,
Tom



Edit: Typos...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on August 02, 2016, 05:26:07 am
Ok - Just got confirmation and a case number from Rigol NA for both the Meka77's RMS bug and the Spelling Error. They were able to recreate both and stated that I will be alerted when resolved.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on August 02, 2016, 05:30:59 am
The RMS bug was first introduced with firmware version 00.04.03.01.05 from 2015-06-16. It had been discussed exhaustively about a year ago already (for the new owners of a DS1000Z  ;) ). The only disappointment is that Rigol didn't fix it in the recent update. So no need to get nervous about that now, all of those who installed the mentioned update learned to live with that bug and surely will survive the next several months until Rigol comes up with a fix (I'm quite optimistic they will...).

Cheers,
Tom

Unlike the freezing bugs (annoying) and spelling bugs (albeit annoying less than freezing) - Meka77's RMS bug has the ability to get someone to err in a design or troubleshooting session due to the scope. Therefore I believe it behooves anyone who uses the VRMS measurement should understand when it happens and how to avoid it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 02, 2016, 08:23:37 pm
Ok - Just got confirmation and a case number from Rigol NA for both the Meka77's RMS bug and the Spelling Error. They were able to recreate both and stated that I will be alerted when resolved.

Excellent. Thanks for the update, Assafl.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: linearphase on August 02, 2016, 09:31:48 pm
I think the measureable difference will be tiny in practice.

I agree, it is somewhat of a moot point because the sample rate is not there if using more than one channel anyway.

1ch = 1GSa = 10 samples per second @ 100 MHz
2ch = 500MSa = 10 samples per second @ 50 MHz
4ch = 250MSa = 10 samples per second @ 25 MHz

Then general rule of thumb is this:

To reproduce a sine wave with 5% envelope accuracy IF you are using sinx/x interpolation requires 2.5 samples per cycle NOT per second.
So for 1 GS/s the DIGITAL part of the scope could accurately reproduce 400 Mhz sine waves that look like they were modulated 5%. However, most square waves have significant frequency components to at least the 5th  harmonic . So this scope in single channel mode could do 80 MHz square waveforms. BUT this is further limited by the analog bandwidth of the scope.
Since you have to reproduce the 5th harmonic reasonably accurately to have square wave a 100Mhz scope would reproduce only a 100/5 or 20 MHz square waveform accurately using sinx/x interpolation. This would also require 100/2.5 samples PER CYCLE or 250MS/s. Stated another way a 100MHz Rigol should be able to accurately reproduce a 20 MHz square wave on all fours channels simultaneously. The same scope would also only be able to do 20 MHz square waves on 2 channels because the analog bandwidth assumed here is 100MHz. The Digital storage  bandwidth would however be 40 MHz on square waves. Once again not usable because of the analog bandwidth limitations.

If the interpolation is linear only, and some scopes are. then the 2.5 quote above becomes 10 , which lowers the bandwidth by a factor of 4!
Also certain scopes, Notably Agilent for a long time required a factor of 4 rather than 2.5 due to the interpolation algorithm used. This reduced the usable bandwidth at any given sample rate.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on August 03, 2016, 07:58:54 am
I seem to be able to get this running on Linux (Gentoo specifically), however PyDSR, sigrok, and DSremote all seem to not be able to communicate with my scope over USB.  I know it is not simply a permissions issue.  DSremote works over LAN.

DSremote worked before I upgraded to the latest firmware.  Any Linux using 1054Z owners have any ideas?

The latest firmware update (version 00.04.04.00.07) breaks the usbtmc interface.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on August 03, 2016, 03:13:29 pm
You mean not just terrible anymore, just fully broken?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-usbtmcvisa-interface-is-really-terrible/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-usbtmcvisa-interface-is-really-terrible/)

And what does that mean? Does the the Rigol app (UltraSigma or UltraScope) still work to send scpi commands?

BTW, is this where to download the firmware? When I try to navigate from the rigolna site, I get to a form where I have give them all my contact info and serial number.

http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on August 03, 2016, 03:27:01 pm
You mean not just terrible anymore, just fully broken?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-usbtmcvisa-interface-is-really-terrible/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-usbtmcvisa-interface-is-really-terrible/)

It still needs to be seen what exactly the cause is, Rigol or the usbtmc kerneldriver.

And what does that mean?

It means that applications like DSRemote don't work anymore via usb connection (at least in this moment). Only via lan.

Does the the Rigol app (UltraSigma or UltraScope) still work to send scpi commands?

I don't know, I don't use them.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on August 03, 2016, 07:47:45 pm
You mean not just terrible anymore, just fully broken?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-usbtmcvisa-interface-is-really-terrible/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-usbtmcvisa-interface-is-really-terrible/)

And what does that mean? Does the the Rigol app (UltraSigma or UltraScope) still work to send scpi commands?

BTW, is this where to download the firmware? When I try to navigate from the rigolna site, I get to a form where I have give them all my contact info and serial number.

http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

You can download the DS1000z firmware update from this link:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)
Note that the "release notes" directly linked on this page is not up to date, but the firmware in the link is the latest version 00.04.04.00.07, and the update zipfile contains an updated release notes text file.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LokiChaos on August 03, 2016, 10:44:33 pm
I seem to be able to get this running on Linux (Gentoo specifically), however PyDSR, sigrok, and DSremote all seem to not be able to communicate with my scope over USB.  I know it is not simply a permissions issue.  DSremote works over LAN.

DSremote worked before I upgraded to the latest firmware.  Any Linux using 1054Z owners have any ideas?

The latest firmware update (version 00.04.04.00.07) breaks the usbtmc interface.

Thank you, at least I can't not worry about trying to track down where the problem is.

I spun up a VM and installed UltraSigma & such and while it appears XP correctly sees and device and installs the driver, nothing seems to actually be able to use it.  I however, cannot verify if that is a problem with the scope's firmware or my software setup as I only set things up now to test.  However, I can verify it works over LAN in windows as well as with DSremote. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Dwaine on August 04, 2016, 02:48:07 am
I seem to be able to get this running on Linux (Gentoo specifically), however PyDSR, sigrok, and DSremote all seem to not be able to communicate with my scope over USB.  I know it is not simply a permissions issue.  DSremote works over LAN.

DSremote worked before I upgraded to the latest firmware.  Any Linux using 1054Z owners have any ideas?

The latest firmware update (version 00.04.04.00.07) breaks the usbtmc interface.

Thank you, at least I can't not worry about trying to track down where the problem is.

I spun up a VM and installed UltraSigma & such and while it appears XP correctly sees and device and installs the driver, nothing seems to actually be able to use it.  I however, cannot verify if that is a problem with the scope's firmware or my software setup as I only set things up now to test.  However, I can verify it works over LAN in windows as well as with DSremote.

I have been using my DS1054z by USB with pyDSR just fine for the last hour.  At the latest firmware version
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LokiChaos on August 04, 2016, 05:05:44 am
I'm looking into it, apparently some issues with my PyVISA install, now resolved (Need an actual VISA lib, though I need to do some other work regarding versions).

Still, sigrok, dsremote, as well as the official tools under MS Windows fail to see it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on August 04, 2016, 06:31:52 am
I think the above poster meant to say PyDSA. I can also run PyDSA in Mac OSX.

That said, it seems like the FFT on-scope with the Memory (instead of Trace) option is better than what you can get with PyDSA. And PyDSA for me, is ending in weird ways which require me to reset the USB connection and restart it.

I'll investigate further, later.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on August 04, 2016, 08:42:09 pm
The latest firmware update (version 00.04.04.00.07) breaks the usbtmc interface.

I have my DS1104Z-S updated with firmware 00.04.04.00.07.
My program 'Rigol Bildschirmkopie' works with the USB connection.

But there is no response to the command '*IDN?'.
A combination with other commands work, eg.'*IDN?;:SYST:ERR?'.

Peter

Thanks! Now DSRemote works again thanks to your tip!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LokiChaos on August 04, 2016, 08:56:19 pm
git pull & make and dsremote works, many thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on August 05, 2016, 03:54:34 pm
* Maybe never mind. I was just reading the start/stop point. I tried it in RAW format too and certainly did not get 250k values. I'll check again tonight and report any anomalies, if I see any.

I upgraded to the latest FW. The Rigol UltraSigma SCPI panel works, but *IDN? is slower to return. I was checking out the waveform data return. When the mode is set to MAX and format is set to ASC, I get around the max number of records (~15k), but when the format is set to BYTE or WORD, I only get ~1k. It should return 250k or 150k, respectively. (actually, I'm not sure if the ASC format returned 15k values, it was a much larger block of numbers though...). OTOH, I appreciate the programming demos they provided.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: freebil on August 07, 2016, 10:11:31 pm
I think the above poster meant to say PyDSA. I can also run PyDSA in Mac OSX.

That said, it seems like the FFT on-scope with the Memory (instead of Trace) option is better than what you can get with PyDSA. And PyDSA for me, is ending in weird ways which require me to reset the USB connection and restart it.

I'll investigate further, later.

Any news about it? Fft function is better on pyDSA or in-scope? I would like to buy this scope and fft function is important for me. Could you please add a screenshot from pyDSA and in-scope fft if possible? Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 07, 2016, 11:37:02 pm
Any news about it? Fft function is better on pyDSA or in-scope? I would like to buy this scope and fft function is important for me. Could you please add a screenshot from pyDSA and in-scope fft if possible? Thanks.

From what I gather, FFT is not a strong feature on the 1054Z.  See EEVBlog #845.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on August 08, 2016, 12:44:30 am
Any news about it? Fft function is better on pyDSA or in-scope? I would like to buy this scope and fft function is important for me. Could you please add a screenshot from pyDSA and in-scope fft if possible? Thanks.

From what I gather, FFT is not a strong feature on the 1054Z.  See EEVBlog #845.

Again, I think this is somewhat old news. I'm not saying the 1054z is a strong signal analysis tool, but the FFT with Memory mode on is a great deal better than it was back when Dave tested it.

Maybe I misremember.

I can't watch it right now because I'm on cell.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 08, 2016, 02:37:01 am
Again, I think this is somewhat old news. I'm not saying the 1054z is a strong signal analysis tool, but the FFT with Memory mode on is a great deal better than it was back when Dave tested it.

Mmm...  The firmware update came out like June '15 and Dave's comparison was done in Jan 2016.  I wonder why he was testing with the outdated firmware.  In any case, one guy in the #845 thread showed the improvement with the new firmware at 1kHz and the results looked similar to the GW Instek.  However, Dave's tests were done at 1 MHz.  Will the new firmware match the performance of the GW Instek at 1 MHz?

I'm interested to know because I too am in the position to buy an entry level scope soon.  My choices are between the GW Instek 1000B (or 2000E) series and the 1054z.  What put me off about the Rigol are the slow UI performance (like the lag between moving the vertical knob to when the trace moves), some of the weird bugs (I know most of them have been fixed except the rms bug, but the nature of the bugs kinda make me think the software isn't well design or implemented), and the fft.  Is the UI lag fixed and the fft performance matches the GW Instek?

I mostly gonna use the scope for software engineering, with occasionally hardware tinkering, so I think most, if not all, of the "bells and whistles", including the fft, of the Rigol are not important to me.  I have never used nor do I ever feel the need to use the decode feature.  I can see it would come handy if you're trying to reverse engineer something though.  But they're still good to have maybe I'll use them more once I have a chance to try them

But anyhow, is the GW Intek more robust than the Rigol?  I know the Rigol has the best value, but if I have to question my tool from time to time, then I rather spend a little more money on something that's more robust.  Nothing is worst than having to troubleshoot your tool in the middle of troubleshooting if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CustomEngineerer on August 08, 2016, 04:17:55 am
If FFT performance is that important to you, just get the GW Instek 2000E series and be done with it. While Rigol did improve FFT on the DS1000Zs, its still not great. I have a Rigol DS2072A which has even worse FFT than the DS1000Z (think its the same as it was on the DS1000Z before the update). I have used the PyDSA software before, but its no substitute for having the scope do it natively. If you plan on using FFT frequently, I think you will regret getting a DS1000Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 08, 2016, 09:47:41 am
I mostly gonna use the scope for software engineering

I'm not sure what that means....but, in the oscilloscope world bandwidth is king. Ask anybody.

A hacked Rigol has more bandwidth.


PS: In reality you don't spend much time moving the traces up/down, and exactly how much better is the Instek at that? There's two or three people in this forum who criticize Rigols endlessly but no side-by-side comparison videos from them.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 08, 2016, 10:00:56 am
Yes, only some text summaries, and if there is only a handful of GW-Instek users, it is of course no surprise that there are less bugs reported, simply because they have not been discovered by that handful of GW-Instek users.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 08, 2016, 11:42:51 am
if I have to question my tool from time to time, then I rather spend a little more money on something that's more robust.  Nothing is worst than having to troubleshoot your tool in the middle of troubleshooting if you know what I mean.

The Rigol haters in this forum have done us one enormous favor: We can confidently list the questionable measurements on a Rigol DS1054Z.

The list at the moment is:

a) RMS voltage readings when more than 1 adjacent channel is enabled.
b) There is no (b)

If you buy any other oscilloscope then there's no such list. You're on your own.

Think about that before continuing.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 08, 2016, 02:39:22 pm
I mostly gonna use the scope for software engineering

I'm not sure what that means....but, in the oscilloscope world bandwidth is king. Ask anybody.

A hacked Rigol has more bandwidth.


PS: In reality you don't spend much time moving the traces up/down, and exactly how much better is the Instek at that? There's two or three people in this forum who criticize Rigols endlessly but no side-by-side comparison videos from them.

Sorry I should have said I will use it for embedded software engineering.  The highest SPI/IC2 speed I've encountered is 4 MHz so 50 MHz bandwidth should be enough for me.  Not to say more bandwidth is not welcomed.  Plus the diff between a 100 MHz and a 50 MHz is not much.  You can watch Dave's GW Instek unboxing video and some other guy's metube video complaining about 1054z UI lag for a comparison.  Can you post a video with the latest firmware showing the UI speed of the trace movements?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 08, 2016, 03:33:17 pm
Sorry I should have said I will use it for embedded software engineering.  The highest SPI/IC2 speed I've encountered is 4 MHz so 50 MHz bandwidth should be enough for me.  Not to say more bandwidth is not welcomed.  Plus the diff between a 100 MHz and a 50 MHz is not much.

In the digital realm and oscilloscope's "bandwidth" has very little relation to the frequency of the signal you're looking at.

eg. Imagine you have a single rising edge on screen - that's a 0Hz signal.

On a 100MHz 'scope the trace will rise in half the time that it takes on a 50Mhz 'scope and that's a big difference.


You can watch Dave's GW Instek unboxing video and some other guy's metube video complaining about 1054z UI lag for a comparison.  Can you post a video with the latest firmware showing the UI speed of the trace movements?

If you're doing digital work and basing a purchasing decision on that rather than bandwidth and number of channels then you're doing it wrong.

Me? I say 4 channels/100Mhz/Serial decoders is a minimum requirement for digital/microcontroller work.

I really don't care what brand you buy, but: Make a shortlist based on that specification then compare prices. Now consider if moving the trace up and down a bit faster is worth that much money.




Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Divine_Evil on August 08, 2016, 04:22:36 pm
HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!


Disclamer: I tried posting this about 30 minutes ago, but for some reason my post is not showing up.

Anyway I am having major issues after I updated to the newest firmware (00.04.04.00.07)

After doing a self-cal as mentioned in the upgrading procedures. Whatever signal I try to measure with the scope I get a 50Hz "over 100V" sine wave... Which looks a lot like mains.

(https://s10.postimg.org/nw1vynxqh/IMG_20160808_171540.jpg)

In the picture above CH1 is connected to a 40MHz clock signal on the board I am debugging. And I am pinching CH2 probe against my thumb...

I tried multiple self-cals, downgrading to  00.04.03.01.05 didn't go through and reseting to factory settings. Non of it worked... Any ideas?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: evava on August 08, 2016, 05:17:47 pm
Have you tried cal signal of your scope?
Can you give us picture of that cal signal?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Divine_Evil on August 08, 2016, 05:37:31 pm
Have you tried cal signal of your scope?
Can you give us picture of that cal signal?

Fixed it... Turns out it wasn't anything with the scope... or firmware.

I also changed the power extension cord (it's a power splitter as well). I guess it wasn't  making good connection and/or some hell of a noise was picked up from somewhere... Just replaced the power splitter with the old one, and voila. Everything is back to normal!

P.S. After that I remembered Dave made a video about such noise over the powerline...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 08, 2016, 05:43:04 pm
In the digital realm and oscilloscope's "bandwidth" has very little relation to the frequency of the signal you're looking at.

eg. Imagine you have a single rising edge on screen - that's a 0Hz signal.

On a 100MHz 'scope the trace will rise in half the time that it takes on a 50Mhz 'scope and that's a big difference.

We're only talking about 2x speed improvement so 5 nSec vs 2.5 nSec?  All of the timing specs I've worked with (in embedded software) are in units of uSecs.  And I do not design nor implement my software to have tolerances in the tenths of nSecs.  So an extra 2.5 nSecs buys me nothing.  I can see that you probably would want the best speed possible if you're designing a microcontroller system from scratch.  But if you're in that situation, you'd probably want something much higher than 100 MHz.  For me (and probably most hobbyist) whom will most likely only use the scope to troubleshoot serial buses, GPIO controlled devices, then the difference between a 50 MHz and a 100 MHz is minimal.

If you're doing digital work and basing a purchasing decision on that rather than bandwidth and number of channels then you're doing it wrong.

Me? I say 4 channels/100Mhz/Serial decoders is a minimum requirement for digital/microcontroller work.

I really don't care what brand you buy, but: Make a shortlist based on that specification then compare prices. Now consider if moving the trace up and down a bit faster is worth that much money.

Do a search for "Rigol 1054z problem" on youtube and watch NatureAndTech's video and see if you'd want to live with that kind of lag.  I don't feel serial decoder is a must have because after all, all serial protocols are asychronous so once you capture one transaction waveform manually and examined and debugged it to make it work, then all subsequent transactions will work.  What's the point of having a decoder to tell me what my data is?  It's nice to have, but not really needed at lease at the software development role.  Plus having a serial decoder won't remove the requirement of manually inspecting the transaction waveforms especially if you're doing bit banging.

My list looks like this
1. 4 channels
2. 50 MHz minimum.  100 MHz ideal.
3. Deep capture memory depth (none of that Tek 12.5K point crap)
4. Robust.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on August 08, 2016, 09:30:23 pm
Fixed it... Turns out it wasn't anything with the scope... or firmware.

I also changed the power extension cord (it's a power splitter as well). I guess it wasn't  making good connection and/or some hell of a noise was picked up from somewhere...

What you saw is usually associated with missing ground in the power cord.
I would not call 100+ volts "noise" :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on August 08, 2016, 10:18:28 pm
I watched NatureAndTech's rant video and have to agree with all of his findings - but not his conclusion:
* The main issue is lag. Lag is still there - but they have changed it so the trace markers reposition much quicker after the knob is rotated (almost instant) - before the trace gets moved (which still takes time). So you can eye the move pretty well.
* I use Tek probes. They are better than the Rigol ones.
* I replaced the fan with a quieter one.
* The rotary knob irks me less than others. Can be a usage pattern difference, a mental threshold issue, or that once I know it can be solved (replace the encoder) - I fret it less.
* IMHO the Teal and Blue are vastly different. Perhaps a green color blindness makes them look alike?
* I have other Irks - like the slow saving of screenshots to USB memory (I love to annotate debugging or problem resolution sessions, and screenshot a lot - and that drives me nuts sometimes).

The conclusion I disagree with - "completely useless???" - perhaps "completely (or very) annoying" would be more apt.

Kind of funny he also uses it in other videos and here: <iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/aiIr3j_EyLY?list=PL5zLSmFo0HELyDnrxbC2tEjSeAl0KaYM0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I guess that as a tool - it packs a lot of capability - but the price hit is with efficiency. It is not a very efficient to use scope. Were I to use it for work - depending on the type of work - of course - it may not be up to the job. But as a home lab having the extra features at an affordable price makes sense.

There are many users of this scope that don't feel the same about it as NatureAndTech. And some that do. They might all be wrong or not.
It really doesn't matter. Pick the one you like and be happy!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 09, 2016, 12:50:03 am
In the digital realm and oscilloscope's "bandwidth" has very little relation to the frequency of the signal you're looking at.

eg. Imagine you have a single rising edge on screen - that's a 0Hz signal.

On a 100MHz 'scope the trace will rise in half the time that it takes on a 50Mhz 'scope and that's a big difference.

We're only talking about 2x speed improvement so 5 nSec vs 2.5 nSec?  All of the timing specs I've worked with (in embedded software) are in units of uSecs.  And I do not design nor implement my software to have tolerances in the tenths of nSecs.  So an extra 2.5 nSecs buys me nothing.  I can see that you probably would want the best speed possible if you're designing a microcontroller system from scratch.  But if you're in that situation, you'd probably want something much higher than 100 MHz.  For me (and probably most hobbyist) whom will most likely only use the scope to troubleshoot serial buses, GPIO controlled devices, then the difference between a 50 MHz and a 100 MHz is minimal.

Spoken like a true softie :)

100MHz was barely adequate for digital logic in the 1970s, and speeds have increased a little since then. Even jellybean logic parts have setup and hold times of ~1ns and propagation times of ~2ns.

More important at any speed is the "signal integrity", i.e. does the analogue signal stay within the limits that will enable the receiver(s) to correctly interpret it as a digital signal. The success/failure of that is dependent on external noise, crosstalk, layout and decoupling, and the transition time. The period is completely unimportant.

Sanity check: what effect will a 6" wire have on a signal?

Summary: if you have well behaved signals the you might not need a 100MHz scope. But if something isn't working, how will you distinguish between a logic fault and a signal integrity problem?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on August 09, 2016, 01:25:51 am
In the digital realm and oscilloscope's "bandwidth" has very little relation to the frequency of the signal you're looking at.

eg. Imagine you have a single rising edge on screen - that's a 0Hz signal.

On a 100MHz 'scope the trace will rise in half the time that it takes on a 50Mhz 'scope and that's a big difference.

We're only talking about 2x speed improvement so 5 nSec vs 2.5 nSec?  All of the timing specs I've worked with (in embedded software) are in units of uSecs.  And I do not design nor implement my software to have tolerances in the tenths of nSecs.  So an extra 2.5 nSecs buys me nothing.  I can see that you probably would want the best speed possible if you're designing a microcontroller system from scratch.  But if you're in that situation, you'd probably want something much higher than 100 MHz.  For me (and probably most hobbyist) whom will most likely only use the scope to troubleshoot serial buses, GPIO controlled devices, then the difference between a 50 MHz and a 100 MHz is minimal.

If you're doing digital work and basing a purchasing decision on that rather than bandwidth and number of channels then you're doing it wrong.

Me? I say 4 channels/100Mhz/Serial decoders is a minimum requirement for digital/microcontroller work.

I really don't care what brand you buy, but: Make a shortlist based on that specification then compare prices. Now consider if moving the trace up and down a bit faster is worth that much money.

Do a search for "Rigol 1054z problem" on youtube and watch NatureAndTech's video and see if you'd want to live with that kind of lag.  I don't feel serial decoder is a must have because after all, all serial protocols are asychronous so once you capture one transaction waveform manually and examined and debugged it to make it work, then all subsequent transactions will work.  What's the point of having a decoder to tell me what my data is?  It's nice to have, but not really needed at lease at the software development role.  Plus having a serial decoder won't remove the requirement of manually inspecting the transaction waveforms especially if you're doing bit banging.

My list looks like this
1. 4 channels
2. 50 MHz minimum.  100 MHz ideal.
3. Deep capture memory depth (none of that Tek 12.5K point crap)
4. Robust.

You should realize that a 50 MHz square wave running into a 50 MHz scope will display as a sine wave.  There is just not enough bandwidth to allow the 3rd, 5th, 7th ... harmonics.  Even a 25 MHz square wave will look odd because there isn't enough room for the odd harmonics.

The point is, you may or may not be able to see exactly what a signal looks like or where it is switching.  This gets particularly important with clocked protocols like SPI.

I like the SPI decoding on the 1054Z.  I know it is only decoding what is on the screen but with a 1 MHz clock, I can get 12 bytes across the screen with perfect decoding.  No, I can't decode the Library of Congress from the buffer.  I have printf() for that kind of nonsense.  Once I have a set of functions that correctly transfers data, I will probably not be using the scope on those signals again.  But I need to see the setup time on CS', I need to understand the relationship between MOSI & MISO edges versus CLK.  In fact, I want to use the cursor to measure the setup and hold times just to be certain I am in spec.  Partly because 1 MHz is terribly slow and I'll eventually want to kick it up to 10 MHz or higher.

I bought my 1054 SPECIFICALLY for the 4 channels.  I actually gave up bandwidth over my Tektronix 485 which can do 350 MHz.  Four channel decoding of SPI is EXACTLY why I bought the thing.  I am working with the W5500 TCP/IP chip and everything is transferred over SPI.  Faster is better than slower...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 09, 2016, 03:37:35 am
Spoken like a true softie :)

100MHz was barely adequate for digital logic in the 1970s, and speeds have increased a little since then. Even jellybean logic parts have setup and hold times of ~1ns and propagation times of ~2ns.

Precisely my point.  If you're gonna do hardware design, you probably want something better than 100 MHz.  What I'll mostly do is to interface say something like a Raspberry PI, Arduino, Beagle Board or what not to external peripherals like ADCs, DACs, cameras, LCDs, LEDs, etc..  I won't be designing my own Raspberry PI nor any of the external peripherals.  So we're talking about serial bus and GPIO debugging mostly.  Max SPI speed is 4 MHz, UART you'll be mostly be under 1 MHz, hack even DVD video is only like 9 Mbps.  So a 50 MHz is fully capable of debugging all these things over a serial bus.

Don't get me wrong, I'd delighted to get a 100 MHz scope, but if I have to choose between a slugish/buggy 100 MHz and a fluid/robust 50 MHz, I think I will choose the 50 MHz.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 09, 2016, 04:30:42 am

You should realize that a 50 MHz square wave running into a 50 MHz scope will display as a sine wave.  There is just not enough bandwidth to allow the 3rd, 5th, 7th ... harmonics.  Even a 25 MHz square wave will look odd because there isn't enough room for the odd harmonics.

The point is, you may or may not be able to see exactly what a signal looks like or where it is switching.  This gets particularly important with clocked protocols like SPI.

I like the SPI decoding on the 1054Z.  I know it is only decoding what is on the screen but with a 1 MHz clock, I can get 12 bytes across the screen with perfect decoding.  No, I can't decode the Library of Congress from the buffer.  I have printf() for that kind of nonsense.  Once I have a set of functions that correctly transfers data, I will probably not be using the scope on those signals again.  But I need to see the setup time on CS', I need to understand the relationship between MOSI & MISO edges versus CLK.  In fact, I want to use the cursor to measure the setup and hold times just to be certain I am in spec.  Partly because 1 MHz is terribly slow and I'll eventually want to kick it up to 10 MHz or higher.

I bought my 1054 SPECIFICALLY for the 4 channels.  I actually gave up bandwidth over my Tektronix 485 which can do 350 MHz.  Four channel decoding of SPI is EXACTLY why I bought the thing.  I am working with the W5500 TCP/IP chip and everything is transferred over SPI.  Faster is better than slower...

I don't remember when was the last time I had to look at anything higher than 4 MHz.  But yeah if you're gonna be interface to something like the W5500 at full Ethernet speed, then you're probably gonna need something higher than 100 MHz.  But you can still use your 50 MHz scope.  Just write the code to work at 10 Mhz, then when you're ready, just cut all the setup time and clock by 8 and you've got 80 MHz.  It's not ideal, but should be workable.  But if I need ethernet in my project, then I'll probably start with a Raspberry PI and work with Linux.  But at Ethernet speed, even 100 MHz is not enough.

I think you have already agreed with my statement that the serial decoder not much of use when you said "In fact, I want to use the cursor to measure the setup and hold times just to be certain I am in spec.".  If you have to measure the waveform with the cursor, then why do you still need to use the decoder?  I have worked with quite a few people over the years and with one exception one time when some guy brought in an expensive logic analyzer with build in SPI decoder and we played with it a little like a toy, I have not see a single person use any serial decoder ever.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on August 09, 2016, 06:28:11 am
* I have other Irks - like the slow saving of screenshots to USB memory (I love to annotate debugging or problem resolution sessions, and screenshot a lot - and that drives me nuts sometimes).

Why don't you connect the scope directly to your pc instead of using a usb-pen?
That works much faster. Screenshots are saved on the pc almost instantly.
No need to hassle with a usb-pen.

Were I to use it for work - depending on the type of work - of course - it may not be up to the job. But as a home lab having the extra features at an affordable price makes sense.

I can't imagine a professional who uses a scope in this priceclass at work.
Imho, this is a scope for hobbyists for use at home.
Nothing wrong with that.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 09, 2016, 07:51:59 am
Spoken like a true softie :)

100MHz was barely adequate for digital logic in the 1970s, and speeds have increased a little since then. Even jellybean logic parts have setup and hold times of ~1ns and propagation times of ~2ns.

Precisely my point.  If you're gonna do hardware design, you probably want something better than 100 MHz.  What I'll mostly do is to interface say something like a Raspberry PI, Arduino, Beagle Board or what not to external peripherals like ADCs, DACs, cameras, LCDs, LEDs, etc..  I won't be designing my own Raspberry PI nor any of the external peripherals.  So we're talking about serial bus and GPIO debugging mostly.  Max SPI speed is 4 MHz, UART you'll be mostly be under 1 MHz, hack even DVD video is only like 9 Mbps.  So a 50 MHz is fully capable of debugging all these things over a serial bus.

Don't get me wrong, I'd delighted to get a 100 MHz scope, but if I have to choose between a slugish/buggy 100 MHz and a fluid/robust 50 MHz, I think I will choose the 50 MHz.

If you wish to continue to snip and ignore points about signal integrity, then that's your choice.

Quoting a digital signal speed in MHz "Max SPI speed is 4 MHz" is revealing, and indicative.

There is a lot of difference between something capable of basic visualisation of UART/SPI/GPIO levels (a 10MHz scope would suffice), and a 50/100NHz scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 09, 2016, 09:46:47 am
I don't remember when was the last time I had to look at anything higher than 4 MHz.

Equating signal bitrate to oscilloscope bandwidth after reading the last couple of pages tells us something.

Just write the code to work at 10 Mhz, then when you're ready, just cut all the setup time and clock by 8 and you've got 80 MHz.

Also: Believing that digital signals aren't affected by the pieces of wire they have to travel down...they just arrive, right? If the code is correct, that's all that matters.  :-+

 :scared:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 09, 2016, 10:24:37 am
I don't remember when was the last time I had to look at anything higher than 4 MHz.

Equating signal bitrate to oscilloscope bandwidth after reading the last couple of pages tells us something.

Just write the code to work at 10 Mhz, then when you're ready, just cut all the setup time and clock by 8 and you've got 80 MHz.

Also: Believing that digital signals aren't affected by the pieces of wire they have to travel down...they just arrive, right? If the code is correct, that's all that matters.  :-+

 :scared:

Just so.

Except I'd add that the digital signals are only found in femtoamp and photon counting systemsl  other examples welcomed :) Apart from that, nature (and electric signals) is analogue.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 09, 2016, 10:25:11 am
You could use a "microprocessor brake" to slowdown your system during debugging phase.

Similar as what was possible with the "Amiga Bremse" from Rex Datentechnik to slow down the Motorola 68000 microprocessor in the Commodore Amiga 500 computer :)
http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=1704 (http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=1704)

I actually have this product, but have never found the time up to now to test it on my Amiga 500 :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on August 09, 2016, 10:26:27 am
Also: Believing that digital signals aren't affected by the pieces of wire they have to travel down...they just arrive, right? If the code is correct, that's all that matters.  :-+
Depends on what you are debugging. If you are paying attention to software maybe you don't need to look into signal integrity unless you see something really odd.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 09, 2016, 10:37:55 am
You could use a "microprocessor brake" to slowdown your system during debugging phase.

Similar as what was possible with the "Amiga Bremse" from Rex Datentechnik to slow down the Motorola 68000 microprocessor in the Commodore Amiga 500 computer :)
http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=1704 (http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=1704)

I actually have this product, but have never found the time up to now to test it on my Amiga 500 :)

I have no idea whether such systems work, but they are irrelevant to the prime use case where scopes are necessary: signal integrity. Why? Because they cannot change the source of many intermittent and hard to find problems, the edge rate.

After you have used a scope to ensure signal integrity, you might as well use a logic analyser to look at the digital signals. Note that logic analyers are much cheaper, have more channels, better triggering and filtering, and are faster than "equivalent" scopes.

Use the right tool for the job at hand.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 09, 2016, 11:41:28 am
Depends on what you are debugging. If you are paying attention to software maybe you don't need to look into signal integrity unless you see something really odd.

How will you figure out the right pullups for your I2C bus just by paying attention to the software?

If your pullups are very borderline then a device might work on the bench but fail intermittently when you move it to production.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 09, 2016, 02:40:45 pm
If you wish to continue to snip and ignore points about signal integrity, then that's your choice.

Quoting a digital signal speed in MHz "Max SPI speed is 4 MHz" is revealing, and indicative.

There is a lot of difference between something capable of basic visualisation of UART/SPI/GPIO levels (a 10MHz scope would suffice), and a 50/100NHz scope.

I will mostly use off the shelf modules, ie Arduinio and its shields etc, so signal integrity should not be an issue.  But even a 50 MHz scope is capable of troubleshooting "signal integrity" for a 10 MHz signal no?  I don't know how a 100 Mhz one is much better than a 50 MHz one.  Slightly better, but you'll still leave wanting more.

Ok.  So you have all convince me to maybe spend more $ to get a 100 or even a 200 MHz one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on August 09, 2016, 02:46:29 pm
If you wish to continue to snip and ignore points about signal integrity, then that's your choice.

Quoting a digital signal speed in MHz "Max SPI speed is 4 MHz" is revealing, and indicative.

There is a lot of difference between something capable of basic visualisation of UART/SPI/GPIO levels (a 10MHz scope would suffice), and a 50/100NHz scope.

I will mostly use off the shelf modules, ie Arduinio and its shields etc, so signal integrity should not be an issue.  But even a 50 MHz scope is capable of troubleshooting "signal integrity" for a 10 MHz signal no?  I don't know how a 100 Mhz one is much better than a 50 MHz one.  Slightly better, but you'll still leave wanting more.

Ok.  So you have all convince me, maybe I spend more $ to get a 100 or even a 200 MHz one.

I'm not an expert, far from that, but I'll give you my 2 cents also.

I'm finishing my EE course and I've allways used 50 or 75MHz scopes. Never needed more than that. Now I'm leaving University, so I decided to buy a scope to have at home to use in my arduino-like projects. I've chosen this DS1054Z and I still haven't found any issue with the "very limiting" 50MHz bandwidth.
But, even if I find that I need 100MHz, where's the problem? I can always hack the firmware and unlock that feature...

For the ~400€ I paid for it, I can't ask more and I think that I didn't need to spend more than this.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 09, 2016, 03:32:54 pm
I will mostly use off the shelf modules, ie Arduinio and its shields etc, so signal integrity should not be an issue.  But even a 50 MHz scope is capable of troubleshooting "signal integrity" for a 10 MHz signal no?

More or less.

I don't know how a 100 Mhz one is much better than a 50 MHz one.

Two words: "Square edges".

Square waves, single rising edges, anything with a square corner is made up of an infinite series of frequency components (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave#Examining_the_square_wave).

A 10Mhz square wave shown on a 50Mhz scope will only have the first and second harmonics intact, the third will be attenuated by 3dB and the fourth harmonic will be almost gone.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=246616;image)

Only two-and-a-bit harmonics is a serious distortion of the input signal. Not square at all. A 50Mhz 'scope simply cannot display a 10MHz square wave properly even with perfect, inductance-free wires and connections (which don't exist).


On a 100Mhz 'scope you'll have the third, fourth and fifth harmonics intact, plus some of the sixth. That's not a small difference from a 50MHz 'scope, it's huge.

PS: And in reality a hacked DS1054Z has about 130MHz bandwidth (measured) so you'll have all of the sixth harmonic and a lot of the seventh. And that's why we like them, slightly sluggish vertical movement notwithstanding. $400 for that much bandwidth and four channels is something that can't be ignored.

As I said earlier: Find that performance from other manufacturers and compare the price. If slightly faster controls is worth that much to you, go ahead...

We don't put up with the DS1054Z's idiosyncrasies because we're ignorant, unrefined clods who don't appreciate the finer things in life like you do. We put up with them because we can have a decent 'scope plus a whole lot of other toys besides - $600-$800 buys a lot of other stuff.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on August 09, 2016, 05:40:04 pm

I think you have already agreed with my statement that the serial decoder not much of use when you said "In fact, I want to use the cursor to measure the setup and hold times just to be certain I am in spec.".  If you have to measure the waveform with the cursor, then why do you still need to use the decoder?  I have worked with quite a few people over the years and with one exception one time when some guy brought in an expensive logic analyzer with build in SPI decoder and we played with it a little like a toy, I have not see a single person use any serial decoder ever.

Dropping CS' is a separate line of C that occurs before spi.write() because the datafield can be arbitrarily long.  Same with raising CS'.  There's not much chance I can violate the setup and hold times using C but it's good to measure anyway.  It sometimes happens that the SPI gadget is still shifting when CS' is raised.  Since I didn't write the mbed SPI library, I don't know whether they waited for transmission of the last byte to be complete or returned after the last byte was stuffed in the shift register.

I didn't use the cursors to check the SCK MOSI or MISO, I just shifted the traces up over the SCK so I could check the edges and verify I was in mode 0.

Another gotcha with C is using bitfields.  They aren't guaranteed to be in any particular alignment within an unsigned char and that can make a HUGE difference (easily discovered by decoding the SPI string) when writing the 3rd byte of the W5500 command.  I had to scrap that idea.  But I WANT bit fields!  So, I'm looking at coding the thing in Ada.

But, you're right, for your needs the more responsive controls are the deciding factor.  I simply don't care about the HMI.  I don't spend nearly as much time twiddling the knobs as I do analyzing the screen display.  And I didn't want to spend much money on a digital scope...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 09, 2016, 05:49:01 pm
Two words: "Square edges".

Square waves, single rising edges, anything with a square corner is made up of an infinite series of frequency components (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave#Examining_the_square_wave).

A 10Mhz square wave shown on a 50Mhz scope will only have the first and second harmonics intact, the third will be attenuated by 3dB and the fourth harmonic will be almost gone.

Only two-and-a-bit harmonics is a serious distortion of the input signal. Not square at all. A 50Mhz 'scope simply cannot display a 10MHz square wave properly even with perfect, inductance-free wires and connections (which don't exist).

On a 100Mhz 'scope you'll have the third, fourth and fifth harmonics intact, plus some of the sixth. That's not a small difference from a 50MHz 'scope, it's huge.

PS: And in reality a hacked DS1054Z has about 130MHz bandwidth (measured) so you'll have all of the sixth harmonic and a lot of the seventh. And that's why we like them, slightly sluggish vertical movement notwithstanding. $400 for that much bandwidth and four channels is something that can't be ignored.

As I said earlier: Find that performance from other manufacturers and compare the price. If slightly faster controls is worth that much to you, go ahead...

We don't put up with the DS1054Z's idiosyncrasies because we're ignorant, unrefined clods who don't appreciate the finer things in life like you do. We put up with them because we can have a decent 'scope plus a whole lot of other toys besides - $600-$800 buys a lot of other stuff.

According to Agilent http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf), the rule of thumb is f(bw) = 5 * f(clk) to get the 5th harmonic.  So a 50 Mhz is fully capable of capturing the 5th harmonic of a 10 MHz signal.  A 50 Mhz scope is also capable of capturing a rise time of 38 nSecs with 3% error or 26 nSecs with 10% error.  This is fully capable of measuring most, if not all, setup/clk time of a 10 MHz signal for home use.

For commercial use, then I def want something even higher than 100 MHz.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 09, 2016, 06:01:14 pm
According to Agilent the rule of thumb is f(bw) = 5 * f(clk) to get the 5th harmonic.

Nope. 5 * f(clk) is only the second harmonic.

f(clk) is the base frequency

3*f(clk) is the first harmonic

5*f(clk) is the second harmonic

7*f(clk) is the third harmonic

etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 09, 2016, 06:15:21 pm
Nope. 5 * f(clk) is only the second harmonic.

f(clk) is the base frequency

3*f(clk) is the first harmonic

5*f(clk) is the second harmonic

7*f(clk) is the third harmonic

etc.

So you're saying the Agilent doc is wrong?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 09, 2016, 06:34:57 pm
Nope. 5 * f(clk) is only the second harmonic.

f(clk) is the base frequency

3*f(clk) is the first harmonic

5*f(clk) is the second harmonic

etc.

So you're saying the Agilent doc is wrong?

I only count two harmonics in the list above. How many do you see?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: LokiChaos on August 09, 2016, 06:38:51 pm
5 times the fundamental is the 5th harmonic, or 4th overtone.  However, it is the 3rd /component/ of the square wave.

Harmonics are just the integer multiples of the fundamental (the first harmonic being 1*f), the even ones just happen to have a zero amplitude in a square wave.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 09, 2016, 06:57:19 pm
5 times the fundamental is the 5th harmonic, or 4th overtone.  However, it is the 3rd /component/ of the square wave.

Harmonics are just the integer multiples of the fundamental (the first harmonic being 1*f), the even ones just happen to have a zero amplitude in a square wave.

OK.

Whatever naming scheme we use it's a fact that:
a) A 50MHz 'scope shows less than the first three harmonics of a 10MHz square wave.
b) That's not very square (see image above).

Also: One of the ideas of having more bandwidth is to know whether the slow rise times you're seeing are due to the 'scope or due to the wires. To do that you need a 'scope that's faster than the wires, not the same speed.

(in theory you can never have enough bandwidth)

So ... 50MHz bandwidth to look at a 10MHz signal? It's too close to the limit for my liking.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 09, 2016, 07:14:10 pm
OK.

Whatever naming scheme we use it's a fact that:
a) A 50MHz 'scope shows less than the first three harmonics of a 10MHz square wave.
b) That's not very square (see image above).

Also: One of the ideas of having more bandwidth is to know whether the slow rise times you're seeing are due to the 'scope or due to the wires. To do that you need a 'scope that's faster than the wires, not the same speed.

(in theory you can never have enough bandwidth)

So ... 50MHz bandwidth to look at a 10MHz signal? It's too close to the limit for my liking.

I have to disagree.  If you look at the Agilent screen shots here http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf) of a 100 Mhz signal captured using a 500 Mhz and a 1 GHz scope, the two square waves look almost identical.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on August 09, 2016, 07:16:26 pm
* I have other Irks - like the slow saving of screenshots to USB memory (I love to annotate debugging or problem resolution sessions, and screenshot a lot - and that drives me nuts sometimes).

Why don't you connect the scope directly to your pc instead of using a usb-pen?
That works much faster. Screenshots are saved on the pc almost instantly.
No need to hassle with a usb-pen.

I was working in the living room so not next to my computer - I could've used the laptop but was looking for an intermittent thump that took hours to capture - so the USB is very appealing to the lazy... Anyway - very appealing but performance could be better.
(the intermittent thump ended up being a 7824 that loosened, would thermally shutdown and send the analog sections to -24V only...).

Were I to use it for work - depending on the type of work - of course - it may not be up to the job. But as a home lab having the extra features at an affordable price makes sense.

I can't imagine a professional who uses a scope in this priceclass at work.
Imho, this is a scope for hobbyists for use at home.
Nothing wrong with that.

Not sure about that. The Pass/Fail functionality doesn't sound like a "home" type of use case. Perhaps as a cheap manufacturing scope for QA?
Also - given the education section on their website - I can definitely see my professors having a ball screwing with students for setting up the scope incorrectly....

In my experience technicians are way more picky than engineers... I can definitely imagine the aerospace technicians I worked with not liking the scope (very "hi end" brand oriented folk).

None of the design engineers I ever worked with really seemed to care much about what scope or device it was. Perhaps in the old days we were old school? (I even remember University days having to design a mixer - loved Mini-Circuits and their awesome design book back then - Just so we could measure the performance of the antenna with the Anritsu).


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on August 09, 2016, 07:29:28 pm
If you wish to continue to snip and ignore points about signal integrity, then that's your choice.

Quoting a digital signal speed in MHz "Max SPI speed is 4 MHz" is revealing, and indicative.

There is a lot of difference between something capable of basic visualisation of UART/SPI/GPIO levels (a 10MHz scope would suffice), and a 50/100NHz scope.

I will mostly use off the shelf modules, ie Arduinio and its shields etc, so signal integrity should not be an issue.  But even a 50 MHz scope is capable of troubleshooting "signal integrity" for a 10 MHz signal no?  I don't know how a 100 Mhz one is much better than a 50 MHz one.  Slightly better, but you'll still leave wanting more.

Ok.  So you have all convince me to maybe spend more $ to get a 100 or even a 200 MHz one.

Actually - the same guy that instilled the doubts about the Rigol's UI shows that given a single channel the BW (due to the 1GS/s sample rate) goes rather nicely to 200MHz - https://www.youtube.com/embed/aiIr3j_EyLY?list=PL5zLSmFo0HELyDnrxbC2tEjSeAl0KaYM0 (https://www.youtube.com/embed/aiIr3j_EyLY?list=PL5zLSmFo0HELyDnrxbC2tEjSeAl0KaYM0) and in another video shows a 400MHz (substantially attenuated) sine using the DS1054Z.

So assuming he is correct - a square wave of a few MHz to perhaps 50MHz measured on one channel should look pretty good (albeit a bit rounded at the top end)... 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on August 09, 2016, 07:30:41 pm
But they are not! The edges are different. Read the paragraph

It doesn't really matter if the frequency is 1GHz or 1 Hz, the key parameter is the rise/fall time and that is the source of all our problems.
Take any arm processor and program it to endlessly switch on and of an output and probe the edges. they won't look like squares at all, there will be reflections unless the ground lead is placed correctly and the trace is not properly terminated.
Now increase the frequency to the point that the reflections will interfere and your squarish trace will generate false conditions where it goes to

Now, switch on the bandwidth limit of the scope channel. No reflections there.. so they not exists.. mmm..
Also, notice that on the scope parameter sheet you have bandwidth and rise time.

this is the reason why you have control over the GPIO speed. It is a limit on the rise/fall time.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on August 09, 2016, 07:40:33 pm
But they are not! The edges are different. Read the paragraph

It doesn't really matter if the frequency is 1GHz or 1 Hz, the key parameter is the rise/fall time and that is the source of all our problems.

Is it critical races you are trying to find? I can't say I love a good race condition error - but to say that that is "the source of all our problems" which I assume to mean "the only use for a scope" - I strongly disagree. I like using a scope on analog circuits as well, on sensors, as well as for power supplies, and sometimes even to see if a silly circuit is doing anything or stone dead...

However, if races are your thing - and especially with high speed digital circuits - the DS1054 is probably not your scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on August 09, 2016, 07:48:26 pm
OK.

Whatever naming scheme we use it's a fact that:
a) A 50MHz 'scope shows less than the first three harmonics of a 10MHz square wave.
b) That's not very square (see image above).

Also: One of the ideas of having more bandwidth is to know whether the slow rise times you're seeing are due to the 'scope or due to the wires. To do that you need a 'scope that's faster than the wires, not the same speed.

(in theory you can never have enough bandwidth)

So ... 50MHz bandwidth to look at a 10MHz signal? It's too close to the limit for my liking.

I have to disagree.  If you look at the Agilent screen shots here http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf) of a 100 Mhz signal captured using a 500 Mhz and a 1 GHz scope, the two square waves look almost identical.

Not even close to identical...

On the 100 MHz scope the rise time is 2.986 ns
On the 500 MHz scope the rise time is 812 ps
On the 1 GHz scope the rise time is 615 ps
And, finally, on the 2 GHz scope the rise time is about right at 520 ps.

The difference between the 100 MHz and 500 MHz scope is huge.  At 5x, things start to look better but it's not until 20x that the waveform is nearly right.  Pick 10x...  This is consistent with most other measurement 'truisms'.  If you want to measure to 0.x V, make sure the meter can read to 0.0x V.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 09, 2016, 07:55:41 pm
I have to disagree.  If you look at the Agilent screen shots here http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf) of a 100 Mhz signal captured using a 500 Mhz and a 1 GHz scope, the two square waves look almost identical.

You mean this?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=246700;image)

Pure marketing crap.

Obviously you don't believe a word I say, so... I'll throw it open: Who here can measure a square wave at 20% of their scopes rated bandwidth and get a beautiful image like that?

Back here in the real world we have images like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=246702;image)

That's a 10MHz signal on a 25MHz 'scope (http://shalewyn.com/indexer.php?m=6502homebrew&n=6502construction), and guess what? It agrees perfectly with the theory of harmonics I posted above.

( it's the best image I could find in ten seconds of googling...but it demonstrates it beautifully)

If you're happy with square waves that look like that then carry on reading Siglent sales brochures.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on August 09, 2016, 08:07:14 pm
I have to disagree.  If you look at the Agilent screen shots here http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf) of a 100 Mhz signal captured using a 500 Mhz and a 1 GHz scope, the two square waves look almost identical.

You mean this?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=246700;image)

Pure marketing crap.

Obviously you don't believe a word I say, so... I'll throw it open: Who here can measure a square wave at 20% of their scopes rated bandwidth and get a beautiful image like that?

Back here in the real world we have images like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=246702;image)

That's a 10MHz signal on a 25MHz 'scope (http://shalewyn.com/indexer.php?m=6502homebrew&n=6502construction), and guess what? It agrees perfectly with the theory of harmonics I posted above.

( it's the best image I could find in ten seconds of googling...but it demonstrates it beautifully)

If you're happy with square waves that look like that then carry on reading Siglent sales brochures.  :popcorn:

I think they are talking trying to resolve critical race conditions for high speed circuits - in which case the justification for going as high BW as one can is clear. I just don't think it is the only use case for a scope...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on August 09, 2016, 08:07:31 pm
But they are not! The edges are different. Read the paragraph

It doesn't really matter if the frequency is 1GHz or 1 Hz, the key parameter is the rise/fall time and that is the source of all our problems.

Is it critical races you are trying to find? I can't say I love a good race condition error - but to say that that is "the source of all our problems" which I assume to mean "the only use for a scope" - I strongly disagree. I like using a scope on analog circuits as well, on sensors, as well as for power supplies, and sometimes even to see if a silly circuit is doing anything or stone dead...

However, if races are your thing - and especially with high speed digital circuits - the DS1054 is probably not your scope.
I meant in the scope of this argument :) why 50 MHz is no good when it should be.. and as an example i brought an arm mcu which is used by a lot of hobbyist

from how i see it the problem is the rise time which has nothing to do with the signal frequency, which can't be overlooked but it will be if the risetime of your scope is much slower and the risetime is heavily influenced by the channel bandwith (in my example, the reflections will vanish when i insert the bandwidth limit but it doesn't mean they aren't there)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 09, 2016, 08:12:35 pm
I have to disagree.  If you look at the Agilent screen shots here http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf) of a 100 Mhz signal captured using a 500 Mhz and a 1 GHz scope, the two square waves look almost identical.

You mean this?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=246700;image)

Pure marketing crap.

Obviously you don't believe a word I say, so... I'll throw it open: Who here can measure a square wave at 20% of their scopes rated bandwidth and get a beautiful image like that?

Back here in the real world we have images like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=246702;image)

That's a 10MHz signal on a 25MHz 'scope (http://shalewyn.com/indexer.php?m=6502homebrew&n=6502construction), and guess what? It agrees perfectly with the theory of harmonics I posted above.

( it's the best image I could find in ten seconds of googling...but it demonstrates it beautifully)

If you're happy with square waves that look like that then carry on reading Siglent sales brochures.  :popcorn:

25 MHz doesn't even give the 3rd harmonic.  You need to cover at least the 3rd harmonic (a 30 MHz scope) to get some kind of square wave.  A 50 MHz scope would give you a nice square wave.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 09, 2016, 08:25:40 pm
Not even close to identical...

On the 100 MHz scope the rise time is 2.986 ns
On the 500 MHz scope the rise time is 812 ps
On the 1 GHz scope the rise time is 615 ps
And, finally, on the 2 GHz scope the rise time is about right at 520 ps.

The difference between the 100 MHz and 500 MHz scope is huge.  At 5x, things start to look better but it's not until 20x that the waveform is nearly right.  Pick 10x...  This is consistent with most other measurement 'truisms'.  If you want to measure to 0.x V, make sure the meter can read to 0.0x V.

Cycle period of 100 MHz = 10 nSecs.  The error between the 1GHz and the 500 Mhz scope is 0.2 nSecs.  Relative error between the two scopes compared to the signal frequency is 0.2/10 = 2%.  2% error should be ok for home use no?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 09, 2016, 08:35:21 pm
I have to disagree.  If you look at the Agilent screen shots here http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf) of a 100 Mhz signal captured using a 500 Mhz and a 1 GHz scope, the two square waves look almost identical.

You mean this?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=246700;image)

Pure marketing crap.

Obviously you don't believe a word I say, so... I'll throw it open: Who here can measure a square wave at 20% of their scopes rated bandwidth and get a beautiful image like that?

Back here in the real world we have images like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=246702;image)

That's a 10MHz signal on a 25MHz 'scope (http://shalewyn.com/indexer.php?m=6502homebrew&n=6502construction), and guess what? It agrees perfectly with the theory of harmonics I posted above.

( it's the best image I could find in ten seconds of googling...but it demonstrates it beautifully)

If you're happy with square waves that look like that then carry on reading Siglent sales brochures.  :popcorn:

25 MHz doesn't even give the 3rd harmonic.  You need to cover at least the 3rd harmonic (a 30 MHz scope) to get some kind of square wave.  A 50 MHz scope would give you a nice square wave.

After checking out the link you showed me, although the 4 MHz capture on a 25 MHz looks passable for home use, but I think you're right, I do want at least a 100 MHz scope.  Thanks for showing me the way!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on August 09, 2016, 08:40:46 pm
Not even close to identical...

On the 100 MHz scope the rise time is 2.986 ns
On the 500 MHz scope the rise time is 812 ps
On the 1 GHz scope the rise time is 615 ps
And, finally, on the 2 GHz scope the rise time is about right at 520 ps.

The difference between the 100 MHz and 500 MHz scope is huge.  At 5x, things start to look better but it's not until 20x that the waveform is nearly right.  Pick 10x...  This is consistent with most other measurement 'truisms'.  If you want to measure to 0.x V, make sure the meter can read to 0.0x V.

Cycle period of 100 MHz = 10 nSecs.  The error between the 1GHz and the 500 Mhz scope is 0.2 nSecs.  Relative error between the two scopes compared to the signal frequency is 0.2/10 = 2%.  2% error should be ok for home use no?


You are missing the point. the difference is in the edge because of the different risetime of the scope, which is heavily influenced by the channel bandwidth
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 09, 2016, 08:51:15 pm
You are missing the point. the difference is in the edge because of the different risetime of the scope, which is heavily influenced by the channel bandwidth

I guess I'm really missing the point.  I know the rise time is not gonna be as accurate as the one with the higher bandwidth (but the higher bandwidth is not exactly the same as the actual rise time anyway), but say a 50 MHz scope has 15 nSecs extra error over a 100 MHz one, if I write my code to add at least say 30 nSecs over any timing specs, then why does a 15 nSecs error matter?  And at 10 Mhz, I can comfortably add 30 nSecs to any timing spec.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 09, 2016, 09:21:14 pm
You are missing the point. the difference is in the edge because of the different risetime of the scope, which is heavily influenced by the channel bandwidth

I guess I'm really missing the point.  I know the rise time is not gonna be as accurate as the one with the higher bandwidth (but the higher bandwidth is not exactly the same as the actual rise time anyway), but say a 50 MHz scope has 15 nSecs extra error over a 100 MHz one, if I write my code to add at least say 30 nSecs over any timing specs, then why does a 15 nSecs error matter?  And at 10 Mhz, I can comfortably add 30 nSecs to any timing spec.

Sigh. What on earth makes you think that in a real system you will have an ideal input signal, e.g. like a square wave from a signal generator

In the real world you have imperfect signal sources transmitted through imperfect interconnections to imperfect receivers.  Then you have to add in the effects of imperfect power and grounds, e.g. ground bounce and decoupling. Not to mention crosstalk and interference.

All of those real world effects are classified  "signal integrity", and lead to intermittent operation. If you want something to work reliably, then you have to measure the analogue effects that will affect your "digital" signals.  That means measuring transients that are within your logic's response times - and those are independent of your circuit's clock rate.

But don't worry; many expensive consultants make a good living sorting out problems cause by that kind of lack of understanding.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 09, 2016, 11:56:59 pm
Sigh. What on earth makes you think that in a real system you will have an ideal input signal, e.g. like a square wave from a signal generator

In the real world you have imperfect signal sources transmitted through imperfect interconnections to imperfect receivers.  Then you have to add in the effects of imperfect power and grounds, e.g. ground bounce and decoupling. Not to mention crosstalk and interference.

All of those real world effects are classified  "signal integrity", and lead to intermittent operation. If you want something to work reliably, then you have to measure the analogue effects that will affect your "digital" signals.  That means measuring transients that are within your logic's response times - and those are independent of your circuit's clock rate.

But don't worry; many expensive consultants make a good living sorting out problems cause by that kind of lack of understanding.

We're switching from rise/fall time to "signal integrity" again?  I mean come on, I'm driving a SPI/IC2 signal from the uC to some chip/module at home.  How imperfect could it get? Unless your home is a power substation, then you shouldn't have to worry about "signal integrity".  I mean if you really want to catch all possible signal integrity problems, then mine as well skip the 100 MHz ('cause it ain't much different than a 50 Mhz if you looking at a 10 MHz signal) get a 1GHz and get it over with.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 10, 2016, 12:13:54 am
Sigh. What on earth makes you think that in a real system you will have an ideal input signal, e.g. like a square wave from a signal generator

In the real world you have imperfect signal sources transmitted through imperfect interconnections to imperfect receivers.  Then you have to add in the effects of imperfect power and grounds, e.g. ground bounce and decoupling. Not to mention crosstalk and interference.

All of those real world effects are classified  "signal integrity", and lead to intermittent operation. If you want something to work reliably, then you have to measure the analogue effects that will affect your "digital" signals.  That means measuring transients that are within your logic's response times - and those are independent of your circuit's clock rate.

But don't worry; many expensive consultants make a good living sorting out problems cause by that kind of lack of understanding.

We're switching from rise/fall time to "signal integrity" again?  I mean come on, I'm driving a SPI/IC2 signal from the uC to some chip/module at home.  How imperfect could it get? Unless your home is a power substation, then you shouldn't have to worry about "signal integrity".  I mean if you really want to catch all possible signal integrity problems, then mine as well skip the 100 MHz ('cause it ain't much different than a 50 Mhz if you looking at a 10 MHz signal) get a 1GHz and get it over with.

Transition time and signal integrity are intimately intertwined. You very deeply fail to understand, and have some reading to do.

For a taster, have a look at http://www.edn.com/collections/4435129/Bogatin-s-Rules-of-Thumb (http://www.edn.com/collections/4435129/Bogatin-s-Rules-of-Thumb)
I suggest an order of 0, 8, 7, 19, then the others.

If you don't understand why inductance and capacitance are important, then please don't design/integrate any hardware for a system that has to be reliable.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 10, 2016, 12:24:31 am
I have to disagree.  If you look at the Agilent screen shots here http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5733EN.pdf) of a 100 Mhz signal captured using a 500 Mhz and a 1 GHz scope, the two square waves look almost identical.

You mean this?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=246700;image)

Pure marketing crap.

Obviously you don't believe a word I say, so... I'll throw it open: Who here can measure a square wave at 20% of their scopes rated bandwidth and get a beautiful image like that?

Back here in the real world we have images like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=246702;image)

That's a 10MHz signal on a 25MHz 'scope (http://shalewyn.com/indexer.php?m=6502homebrew&n=6502construction), and guess what? It agrees perfectly with the theory of harmonics I posted above.

( it's the best image I could find in ten seconds of googling...but it demonstrates it beautifully)

If you're happy with square waves that look like that then carry on reading Siglent sales brochures.  :popcorn:

25 MHz doesn't even give the 3rd harmonic.  You need to cover at least the 3rd harmonic (a 30 MHz scope) to get some kind of square wave.  A 50 MHz scope would give you a nice square wave.

After checking out the link you showed me, although the 4 MHz capture on a 25 MHz looks passable for home use, but I think you're right, I do want at least a 100 MHz scope.  Thanks for showing me the way!

After thinking about it more, I take back what I said about a 50 MHz scope couldn't produce a nice square wave.  It could indeed produce a very nice square wave because isn't the scope front end is just a low pass filter?  If so, the wave form you showed in your picture captured from the OWON Scope makes no sense.  There must be something very wrong with the OWON.  I have simulated a low-pass filter with cut-off at 50 MHz and fed in a 10 MHz square wave using LTSpice and as you can see from the picture below (green input, red output), the output from the filter matches what Agilent showed in their document.  So Agilent is right, you can choose the bandwidth of your scope using the formula

f(bw) = 5 * f (clk)

So a 50 MHz scope can produce a very nice square wave of 10 Mhz except the rise time of the pulse will be slightly off from a 100 MHz scope.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2czq68i.jpg)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 10, 2016, 12:46:12 am
Transition time and signal integrity are intimately intertwined. You very deeply fail to understand, and have some reading to do.

For a taster, have a look at http://www.edn.com/collections/4435129/Bogatin-s-Rules-of-Thumb (http://www.edn.com/collections/4435129/Bogatin-s-Rules-of-Thumb)
I suggest an order of 0, 8, 7, 19, then the others.

If you don't understand why inductance and capacitance are important, then please don't design/integrate any hardware for a system that has to be reliable.

You should only be worry about those if designing a new system from scratch.  Unlikely to occur if you're using off the shelf modules, but ok fine I'll bite.  How does a 100 MHz scope be much better than a 50 MHz scope in catching the problems of "Signal Integrity"?  And how can a 100 MHz scope capture a "signal integrity" problem that only a 200 MHz scope can catch?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jjoonathan on August 10, 2016, 01:19:50 am
A 1-pole AFE filter would only make sense if you had plenty of sample rate to burn. Most scopes are more aggressive.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 10, 2016, 02:30:30 am
A 1-pole AFE filter would only make sense if you had plenty of sample rate to burn. Most scopes are more aggressive.

I found a video showing a 10 MHz and 20 MHz on a 100 MHz Rigol scope.  Of course the 10 Mhz looks better, but to me the 20 MHz is doable for home use.  The peak voltage measured are the same and so are the rise/fall times.  4:21 and 4:31 time mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQjwZey-Y1Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQjwZey-Y1Q)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 10, 2016, 03:00:07 am
Dropping CS' is a separate line of C that occurs before spi.write() because the datafield can be arbitrarily long.  Same with raising CS'.  There's not much chance I can violate the setup and hold times using C but it's good to measure anyway.  It sometimes happens that the SPI gadget is still shifting when CS' is raised.  Since I didn't write the mbed SPI library, I don't know whether they waited for transmission of the last byte to be complete or returned after the last byte was stuffed in the shift register.

I didn't use the cursors to check the SCK MOSI or MISO, I just shifted the traces up over the SCK so I could check the edges and verify I was in mode 0.

Another gotcha with C is using bitfields.  They aren't guaranteed to be in any particular alignment within an unsigned char and that can make a HUGE difference (easily discovered by decoding the SPI string) when writing the 3rd byte of the W5500 command.  I had to scrap that idea.  But I WANT bit fields!  So, I'm looking at coding the thing in Ada.

But, you're right, for your needs the more responsive controls are the deciding factor.  I simply don't care about the HMI.  I don't spend nearly as much time twiddling the knobs as I do analyzing the screen display.  And I didn't want to spend much money on a digital scope...

If you don't know what the spi.write() function does, you shouldn't be doing any code development at all.  I mean that's pretty important to know whether that function returns after last bit left the wire or after the shift register is written.  You need to find out how to determine when the MOSI and CLK are at their final resting places before de-asserting CS.  Also in some processors like Arm with the Matrix, you need to also make sure that the CS assert has left the wire before calling the 1st spi.write(..)

Some compilers allow you to define the order of the bit-fields, but I don't remember how the alignment definition extends to multi-bit bit-fields.  But if you really want to write portable code, then you could just write a function that converts the bit-field into an unsigned char suitable for spi.write(..).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jjoonathan on August 10, 2016, 03:06:40 am
Rigols have very shallow rolloffs. The DS1102E in the video dedicates 60% of its Nyquist bandwidth to rolloff as opposed to nameplate bandwidth! This cost Rigol dearly -- they had to overclock, dither, and pull all sorts of tricks to get there at their price point -- but it shows in the smooth response that doesn't ring. You aren't just seeing the 5th harmonic, but also the 7th and 9th, and 11th with increasing attenuation. That's why it's smooth, and that's one reason why Rigol comes so heavily recommended. Use a brick-wall filter and you'll get your ringing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 10, 2016, 03:12:20 am
Rigols have very shallow rolloffs. The DS1102E in the video dedicates 60% of its Nyquist bandwidth to rolloff as opposed to nameplate bandwidth! This cost Rigol dearly -- they had to overclock, dither, and pull all sorts of tricks to get there at their price point -- but it shows in the smooth response that doesn't ring. You aren't just seeing the 5th harmonic, but also the 7th and 9th, and 11th with increasing attenuation. That's why it's smooth, and that's one reason why Rigol comes so heavily recommended. Use a brick-wall filter and you'll get your ringing.

Surely a Tek, Agilent, GW Instek can match that no?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2016, 04:51:58 am
Rigols have very shallow rolloffs. The DS1102E in the video dedicates 60% of its Nyquist bandwidth to rolloff as opposed to nameplate bandwidth!

Surely a Tek, Agilent, GW Instek can match that no?

But not OWON?

Even though it's just a single capacitor and a resistor (according to your spice simulation....)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2016, 05:24:04 am
Just for you: Here's a video that shows Dave Failing to measure a 1kHz square wave as beautifully as a Siglent sales brochure. Using the best setup he can manage - you won't get anywhere near this just by clipping a probe onto a wire.


(on various 'scopes, up to 1GHz).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHbooMWS0bU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHbooMWS0bU)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jjoonathan on August 10, 2016, 06:08:38 am
Rigols have very shallow rolloffs. The DS1102E in the video dedicates 60% of its Nyquist bandwidth to rolloff as opposed to nameplate bandwidth!

Surely a Tek, Agilent, GW Instek can match that no?

But not OWON?

Even though it's just a single capacitor and a resistor (according to your spice simulation....)

All manufacturers should implement revolutionary resistor capacitor technology, get rid of this rubbish:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/?action=dlattach;attach=77504 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/?action=dlattach;attach=77504)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on August 10, 2016, 07:29:51 am
A 1-pole AFE filter would only make sense if you had plenty of sample rate to burn. Most scopes are more aggressive.

I found a video showing a 10 MHz and 20 MHz on a 100 MHz Rigol scope.  Of course the 10 Mhz looks better, but to me the 20 MHz is doable for home use.  The peak voltage measured are the same and so are the rise/fall times.  4:21 and 4:31 time mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQjwZey-Y1Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQjwZey-Y1Q)
it is exactly the same, look at the edges. that's because the square wave is bandlimited so its risetime is < 12ns, according to the datasheet, and it will be like this at all frequencies.
for this units it seems about 6ns judging by eye, probably a bit more
the ds 1102E has a risetime of <3.5ns at the BNC connector.
i think the small ringing is due to the band limited impulse they used and not a reflection.. a bit of ringing would allow higher frequency content (faster edge) but with a sharper rolloff so they don't introduce aliasing and hey chose this one as the compromize
if they measured the TTL output instead it might have been more fun to watch
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on August 10, 2016, 02:36:45 pm
Here is an Agilent paper on rise time versus bandwidth:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5988-8008EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5988-8008EN.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vk6zgo on August 10, 2016, 03:04:10 pm
According to Agilent the rule of thumb is f(bw) = 5 * f(clk) to get the 5th harmonic.

Nope. 5 * f(clk) is only the second harmonic.

f(clk) is the base frequency

3*f(clk) is the first harmonic

5*f(clk) is the second harmonic

7*f(clk) is the third harmonic

etc.

Sorry,it doesn't work that way.

There is no such thing as a first harmonic.
If there was,it would be the fundamental ----in this case,f(clk)
The 2nd harmonic is  2f(clk)
The 3rd harmonic is  3f(clk)
The 4th harmonic is  4f(clk)
The 5th harmonic is  5f(clk),& so on.

Just because a square wave only has odd harmonics,you don't get to change the designations of harmonics.

Yes,in this case 3f(clk) is the first harmonic you are interested in,but it is still the 3rd harmonic of the fundamental.

heatbreak is correct,as he is using the correct terminology.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: freebil on August 10, 2016, 06:22:56 pm
Hello. Can I enter a bnc antenna like this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1040mm-Telescopic-Antenna-Q9-BNC-Connector-12mm-Dia-Portable-FM-Radio-Scanner-/201507365072?hash=item2eeac660d0:g:OoEAAOSwuAVW1Yv~ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1040mm-Telescopic-Antenna-Q9-BNC-Connector-12mm-Dia-Portable-FM-Radio-Scanner-/201507365072?hash=item2eeac660d0:g:OoEAAOSwuAVW1Yv~)

in the ds1054z? Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on August 10, 2016, 07:05:14 pm
That antenna will physically connect to the scope as BNC is a standard connector. Not sure what you will see with it, though. I'd expect a lot of line noise.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2016, 08:38:32 pm
heatbreak is correct,as he is using the correct terminology.

Using the correct terminology makes a 50MHz scope able to display a 10MHz square wave perfectly.

Got it!  :-+

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on August 10, 2016, 09:42:44 pm
Hello. Can I enter a bnc antenna like this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1040mm-Telescopic-Antenna-Q9-BNC-Connector-12mm-Dia-Portable-FM-Radio-Scanner-/201507365072?hash=item2eeac660d0:g:OoEAAOSwuAVW1Yv~ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1040mm-Telescopic-Antenna-Q9-BNC-Connector-12mm-Dia-Portable-FM-Radio-Scanner-/201507365072?hash=item2eeac660d0:g:OoEAAOSwuAVW1Yv~)

in the ds1054z? Thanks

Yes, but what exactly are you expecting to see with it??

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: vk6zgo on August 11, 2016, 03:06:36 am
heatbreak is correct,as he is using the correct terminology.

Using the correct terminology makes a 50MHz scope able to display a 10MHz square wave perfectly.

Got it!  :-+

No,but making up your own terminology on the spot makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about.

Yes,5 times the fundamental frequency will allow you to display a useable square wave,
It will obviously not be a perfect rendition.

In that part of your argument you are correct.
I was pointing out that heatbreak's quoted "rule of thumb" was correct (as far as it goes),& that your understanding of harmonics seemed to be a bit confused.

I am a bit at odds with the "5f(clk)" rule,as it seems to assume a fairly strange response curve,where the response is still flat at (for the above case) 50MHz.
Many "50 MHz" 'scopes would be 3dB down at that point.

The rule I learnt many years ago was "7 times the fundamental",which would move the 5th harmonic out of the rolloff,with a more accurate (but still not perfect) rendition of the 10MHz square wave.



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: freebil on August 11, 2016, 03:21:15 am
Maybe some really strong rf signals or not? I have a raspberry which acts as transmitter with https://github.com/F5OEO/rpitx for different frequencies and modulations.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 11, 2016, 04:07:10 am
heatbreak is correct,as he is using the correct terminology.

Using the correct terminology makes a 50MHz scope able to display a 10MHz square wave perfectly.

Got it!  :-+

No,but making up your own terminology on the spot makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about.

Yes,5 times the fundamental frequency will allow you to display a useable square wave,
It will obviously not be a perfect rendition.

In that part of your argument you are correct.
I was pointing out that heatbreak's quoted "rule of thumb" was correct (as far as it goes),& that your understanding of harmonics seemed to be a bit confused.

I am a bit at odds with the "5f(clk)" rule,as it seems to assume a fairly strange response curve,where the response is still flat at (for the above case) 50MHz.
Many "50 MHz" 'scopes would be 3dB down at that point.

The rule I learnt many years ago was "7 times the fundamental",which would move the 5th harmonic out of the rolloff,with a more accurate (but still not perfect) rendition of the 10MHz square wave.

A square wave will start to look square at the 3rd harmonic.  At the 5th harmonic, it will be very usable (as proven my link to a 100 MHz Rigol displaying a 20 MHz square wave and by my spice simulation).  The bandwidth of the scope is usually defined by the cut-off frequency, ie the -3 dB point.  If a square wave is not usable by the 5th harmonic, then I'd look into probe problem, signal problem, system problem, or crap scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 11, 2016, 07:39:20 am
A square wave will start to look square at the 3rd harmonic.

Of what importance, other than to an artist, is what is "looks like", i.e. its appearance?

What's important is the effect a waveform has on the circuit, or the significance of the measurements that can (and cannot) be made.

In a circuit where the electronics respond to a 1ns event (e.g. reflection transient, crosstalk, ESD, or noise) then who cares what a 1Hz waveform "looks like" on a 10MHz scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on August 11, 2016, 07:44:03 am
Maybe some really strong rf signals or not? I have a raspberry which acts as transmitter with https://github.com/F5OEO/rpitx for different frequencies and modulations.
The RF spectrum is really busy and polluted. Radio receivers must do quite a filtering in order to pull a useful signal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 11, 2016, 08:49:47 am
The rule I learnt many years ago was "7 times the fundamental",which would move the 5th harmonic out of the rolloff,with a more accurate (but still not perfect) rendition of the 10MHz square wave.

Is that where 70MHz scopes come from?

70MHz seems a strange number (to me) but many manufacturers do a 70MHz 'scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on August 11, 2016, 11:01:43 am
Maybe some really strong rf signals or not? I have a raspberry which acts as transmitter with https://github.com/F5OEO/rpitx for different frequencies and modulations.
I am using a cheap SDR dongle for that. don't want to trash money on a spectrum analyzer if i only need to check wether the signal is present
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: heatbreak on August 12, 2016, 03:09:41 am
A square wave will start to look square at the 3rd harmonic.

Of what importance, other than to an artist, is what is "looks like", i.e. its appearance?

What's important is the effect a waveform has on the circuit, or the significance of the measurements that can (and cannot) be made.

In a circuit where the electronics respond to a 1ns event (e.g. reflection transient, crosstalk, ESD, or noise) then who cares what a 1Hz waveform "looks like" on a 10MHz scope.

Yes you're right.  I finally understand what you all meant by it's the rise time that counts.  It's because

riseTime_nSecs = 0.35 / bw_ghz

riseTime_nSecs = 0.35 / 0.05 = 7 nSecs for a 50 MHz scope
riseTime_nSecs = 0.35 / 0.1 = 3.5 nSecs for a 100 MHz scope

So if a signal has a rise time of 3.5 nSecs, then it has the potential to produce frequencies up to 100 MHz and if this signal is picked up by a part of the circuit that acts like a filter that allows, say, 100 Mhz to pass, then you'd have a 100 Mhz signal in your system.  Am I close?  If so, then I see why you'd want as high a bandwidth in your scope as possible.  Thanks for all that replied.  I learned something new.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 12, 2016, 08:16:54 am
A square wave will start to look square at the 3rd harmonic.

Of what importance, other than to an artist, is what is "looks like", i.e. its appearance?

What's important is the effect a waveform has on the circuit, or the significance of the measurements that can (and cannot) be made.

In a circuit where the electronics respond to a 1ns event (e.g. reflection transient, crosstalk, ESD, or noise) then who cares what a 1Hz waveform "looks like" on a 10MHz scope.

Yes you're right.  I finally understand what you all meant by it's the rise time that counts.  It's because

riseTime_nSecs = 0.35 / bw_ghz

riseTime_nSecs = 0.35 / 0.05 = 7 nSecs for a 50 MHz scope
riseTime_nSecs = 0.35 / 0.1 = 3.5 nSecs for a 100 MHz scope

So if a signal has a rise time of 3.5 nSecs, then it has the potential to produce frequencies up to 100 MHz and if this signal is picked up by a part of the circuit that acts like a filter that allows, say, 100 Mhz to pass, then you'd have a 100 Mhz signal in your system.  Am I close?  If so, then I see why you'd want as high a bandwidth in your scope as possible.  Thanks for all that replied.  I learned something new.

Essentially yes.

Bear in mind the assumptions behind the "0.35" equation, and that it is only a rule of thumb. There are cases where it is inappropriate/irrelevant, but those can wait until you have a deeper understanding.

Never forget that it isn't only "signals" that are of interest. So is noise and interference and, particularly power plane transients and resonances. Forget the concept of "0V" or ground or earth, since they are all fiction that has some use in some limited instances.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on August 12, 2016, 03:13:22 pm
Forget the concept of "0V" or ground or earth, since they are all fiction that has some use in some limited instances.

After reading that, I felt like asking if there is such a thing as a standard voltage (or standard ground), kinda like we have a GPS frequency standard and some way of determining absolute power (dBm). But then what you are saying suggests that V is merely relative, like dB. Yet, V seems to be a fundamental component of power.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on August 12, 2016, 03:23:30 pm
Forget the concept of "0V" or ground or earth, since they are all fiction that has some use in some limited instances.

After reading that, I felt like asking if there is such a thing as a standard voltage (or standard ground), kinda like we have a GPS frequency standard and some way of determining absolute power (dBm). But then what you are saying suggests that V is merely relative, like dB. Yet, V seems to be a fundamental component of power.

If such thing was needed, the earth is the absolute 0. But you don't need it for usual power measures and calculations, since it is all based on potential difference. You don't need to know what's the reference absolute voltage, you just need to know the potential difference...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 12, 2016, 03:30:04 pm
Forget the concept of "0V" or ground or earth, since they are all fiction that has some use in some limited instances.

If all the electrons and protons match in a lump of matter then surely that's "zero" volts.

If I match up all the protons/electrons in two lumps of matter anywhere in the universe then bring them together there won't be any charge transferred between them. That means there's a universal reference point out there.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on August 12, 2016, 03:38:04 pm
the definition of voltage comes from a potential (which translates into an integral).. in fact voltage is a difference of two potentials between two points in the space. zero is and can only be arbitrary

(choosing the earth as zero would assume the earth is at the same potential - and it has zero resistance - in each point along the surface which is not true. for example, with a lightning or during a short to your home's earth conductor the potential in that area rises, compared to the earth at some meters away)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 12, 2016, 03:42:07 pm
voltage is a difference of two potentials between two points in the space.

Of course.

zero is and can only be arbitrary

I disagree. I think that two people at opposite ends of the universe could create an object and when those objects are brought together there will be 0V difference between them.

Edit: ... although that value of 'zero' would have no practical use for engineers.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on August 12, 2016, 03:48:48 pm
difference
that's the key word. voltage, difference of potentials, is a result of an integral which is always a difference between two quantities. "Zero Volts" only means that the two points you are measuring are at the same potential.
Always two.

100 Voltage means that the difference between two points is 100. one could be 100 and the other 0.. or one 0 and the other -100... or 150 and 50, referred to a third point
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 12, 2016, 03:57:24 pm
difference
that's the key word. voltage, difference of potentials, is a result of an integral which is always a difference between two quantities. "Zero Volts" only means that the two points you are measuring are at the same potential.

Yes of course, but they numbers aren't "arbitrary".

eg. I could (theoretically) examine two objects in complete isolation and tell you the voltage difference between them when they are brought together.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 12, 2016, 04:24:35 pm
Forget the concept of "0V" or ground or earth, since they are all fiction that has some use in some limited instances.

After reading that, I felt like asking if there is such a thing as a standard voltage (or standard ground), kinda like we have a GPS frequency standard and some way of determining absolute power (dBm). But then what you are saying suggests that V is merely relative, like dB. Yet, V seems to be a fundamental component of power.

If such thing was needed, the earth is the absolute 0.

If only that was true, it would make engineering certain systems much simpler.

Start by considering why, in a thunderstorm, you are advised to keep your two feet together (amongst other advice). Consider what happens when there is a lightning strike nearby and large currents flow through the ground you are standing on. Hint: you don't want sufficient potential difference between your feet that some current goes throught your body.

If you don't like high current engineering, then consider antennas. Start by considering the physical processes by which monopole antennas "appear" to be twice their physical length. Hint: it is because currents flowing in the earth create a virtual image of the real physical antenna.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on August 12, 2016, 08:54:35 pm
eg. I could (theoretically) examine two objects in complete isolation and tell you the voltage difference between them when they are brought together.

Huh? You mean, without having a common reference potential to refer to in you examination of the individual objects? And you could tell the potential difference between them before you bring them together to compare them? How would you do that?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on August 12, 2016, 10:16:42 pm
Forget the concept of "0V" or ground or earth, since they are all fiction that has some use in some limited instances.

After reading that, I felt like asking if there is such a thing as a standard voltage (or standard ground), kinda like we have a GPS frequency standard and some way of determining absolute power (dBm). But then what you are saying suggests that V is merely relative, like dB. Yet, V seems to be a fundamental component of power.

If such thing was needed, the earth is the absolute 0.

If only that was true, it would make engineering certain systems much simpler.

Start by considering why, in a thunderstorm, you are advised to keep your two feet together (amongst other advice). Consider what happens when there is a lightning strike nearby and large currents flow through the ground you are standing on. Hint: you don't want sufficient potential difference between your feet that some current goes throught your body.

If you don't like high current engineering, then consider antennas. Start by considering the physical processes by which monopole antennas "appear" to be twice their physical length. Hint: it is because currents flowing in the earth create a virtual image of the real physical antenna.

You are considering extreme conditions. But even in that conditions, the lightning strike just flows to the phisical ground because the earth doesn't have any potential and the current allways flows to the lowest potential possible with less resistence. So I don't see your point...
And also, I don't see any significan simplicity considering earth as the absolute 0V. Like some guys said here, voltage is just a matter of potential difference and the earth potential is a bit irrelevant.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 12, 2016, 10:23:46 pm
Huh? You mean, without having a common reference potential to refer to in you examination of the individual objects?

No, I mean with a common reference potential.

(or by counting the ratio of protons to electrons in the objects)


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 12, 2016, 10:50:50 pm
As far as standards go, there's the Josephson voltage standard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephson_voltage_standard). Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 12, 2016, 11:29:36 pm
As far as standards go, there's the Josephson voltage standard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephson_voltage_standard). Interesting stuff.

"....is the basis for voltage standards around the World".

So there you go, voltages have an international reference standard.  :popcorn:

(you doubters!)

The next step is to build one and use my DS1054Z in math mode to measure true voltages.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 12, 2016, 11:38:37 pm
Forget the concept of "0V" or ground or earth, since they are all fiction that has some use in some limited instances.

After reading that, I felt like asking if there is such a thing as a standard voltage (or standard ground), kinda like we have a GPS frequency standard and some way of determining absolute power (dBm). But then what you are saying suggests that V is merely relative, like dB. Yet, V seems to be a fundamental component of power.

If such thing was needed, the earth is the absolute 0.

If only that was true, it would make engineering certain systems much simpler.

Start by considering why, in a thunderstorm, you are advised to keep your two feet together (amongst other advice). Consider what happens when there is a lightning strike nearby and large currents flow through the ground you are standing on. Hint: you don't want sufficient potential difference between your feet that some current goes throught your body.

If you don't like high current engineering, then consider antennas. Start by considering the physical processes by which monopole antennas "appear" to be twice their physical length. Hint: it is because currents flowing in the earth create a virtual image of the real physical antenna.

You are considering extreme conditions. But even in that conditions, the lightning strike just flows to the phisical ground because the earth doesn't have any potential and the current allways flows to the lowest potential possible with less resistence. So I don't see your point...
And also, I don't see any significan simplicity considering earth as the absolute 0V. Like some guys said here, voltage is just a matter of potential difference and the earth potential is a bit irrelevant.

In what way, exactly, do antennas represent "extreme conditions"?

If you want something "closer to home", consider the current flows in ground planes on PCBs. The naive think that, because copper is a good conductor, a PCB everywhere on a ground plane is at the same potential. Unfortunately not, and the more experienced hardware engineers know it. Start by realising that if there is a signal conductor between a transmitter and receiver, then the return current doesn't go back directly from the receiver to the transmitter. Instead, at high frequencies, it is concentrated underneath and follows the signal conductor. And current flow is intimitely related to potential differences, and vice versa.

Exactly analogous phenomena occur in electrical distribution networks, except that the frequencies tend to be lower and the currents higher.

So no, the phenomena I allude to are real and important, not theoretial and esoteric.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on August 13, 2016, 12:13:26 am
The whole "how much bandwidth is necessary to display a square wave" issue is why I prefer to think of oscilloscope performance in terms of rise and fall time.  And "peak detect glitch capture" when discussing DSOs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on August 13, 2016, 01:06:20 am
The whole "how much bandwidth is necessary to display a square wave" issue is why I prefer to think of oscilloscope performance in terms of rise and fall time.  And "peak detect glitch capture" when discussing DSOs.

Has anyone actually characterized this in the DS1xx4Z? I'd like to see that. I think I saw a topic here about that, or something similar. Rise time was one of my first questions about this scope as I was comparing it to my (defunct) Tek 2230A.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on August 13, 2016, 05:47:53 am
Huh? You mean, without having a common reference potential to refer to in you examination of the individual objects?
No, I mean with a common reference potential.

OK, that I can understand, thanks for clarifying. I would not call that "examining them in complete isolation", though, since you need the reference "connection" between them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 13, 2016, 06:18:44 am
OK, that I can understand, thanks for clarifying. I would not call that "examining them in complete isolation", though, since you need the reference "connection" between them.

The 'connection' can be an agreed-upon voltage standard, it doesn't have to be the same physical object.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on August 13, 2016, 06:49:29 am
OK, that I can understand, thanks for clarifying. I would not call that "examining them in complete isolation", though, since you need the reference "connection" between them.

The 'connection' can be an agreed-upon voltage standard, it doesn't have to be the same physical object.

Hmm, we are still not on the same page here. My take is that a "voltage standard" can give you a common scale, but you also need a common reference potential if you want to determine the relative voltage between two separate objects. Say you have one charged object on the moon and one on earth, and a calibrated voltmeter next to each object. How do you measure the potential of each object and predict what the relative voltage between the two will be when you bring them together?

You could use two "reference objects", which you have brought together and brought to the same potential at some point in the past, and then carried one to the moon. But again, that does not count as "measuring in isolation" in my book ;-)

Considering the thread title, we may be drifting ever-so-slightly off topic here... Apologies to everyone else reading this!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 13, 2016, 07:10:51 am
You could use two "reference objects", which you have brought together and brought to the same potential at some point in the past, and then carried one to the moon.

OK, I see the confusion: The point is that you can create those two reference objects in complete isolation.

(using a universal standard for voltage reference objects)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on August 13, 2016, 07:11:13 am
Hmm, we are still not on the same page here.
good luck :palm:
have fun
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on August 13, 2016, 07:14:18 am
You could use two "reference objects", which you have brought together and brought to the same potential at some point in the past, and then carried one to the moon.

OK, I see the confusion: The point is that you can create those two reference objects in complete isolation.

(using a universal standard for voltage reference objects)

Gridlock...  ???
So how do you obtain a "universal standard for voltage reference objects" without moving a reference object aross the universe, or running a wire across the universe?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 13, 2016, 07:22:57 am
I pasted a link earlier about the method used to establish a voltage standard. However, it would be best to move this discussion to its own thread. Perhaps create it in the metrology forum? It's a good topic and deserves to be fully explored.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on August 13, 2016, 07:41:30 am
I pasted a link earlier about the method used to establish a voltage standard. However, it would be best to move this discussion to its own thread. Perhaps create it in the metrology forum? It's a good topic and deserves to be fully explored.

But, again - the Josephson standard only establishes a scale (the "slope") for measuring voltage, not an absolute reference potential, doesn't it?

Anyway, you are right that we are derailing this thread, and it seems that we are going round in circles; so I'm giving up. At least we have successfully demonstrated the difficulty of establishing "common ground" across a distance  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on August 13, 2016, 08:14:33 am
Forget the concept of "0V" or ground or earth, since they are all fiction that has some use in some limited instances.

After reading that, I felt like asking if there is such a thing as a standard voltage (or standard ground), kinda like we have a GPS frequency standard and some way of determining absolute power (dBm). But then what you are saying suggests that V is merely relative, like dB. Yet, V seems to be a fundamental component of power.

If such thing was needed, the earth is the absolute 0.

If only that was true, it would make engineering certain systems much simpler.

Start by considering why, in a thunderstorm, you are advised to keep your two feet together (amongst other advice). Consider what happens when there is a lightning strike nearby and large currents flow through the ground you are standing on. Hint: you don't want sufficient potential difference between your feet that some current goes throught your body.

If you don't like high current engineering, then consider antennas. Start by considering the physical processes by which monopole antennas "appear" to be twice their physical length. Hint: it is because currents flowing in the earth create a virtual image of the real physical antenna.

You are considering extreme conditions. But even in that conditions, the lightning strike just flows to the phisical ground because the earth doesn't have any potential and the current allways flows to the lowest potential possible with less resistence. So I don't see your point...
And also, I don't see any significan simplicity considering earth as the absolute 0V. Like some guys said here, voltage is just a matter of potential difference and the earth potential is a bit irrelevant.

In what way, exactly, do antennas represent "extreme conditions"?

If you want something "closer to home", consider the current flows in ground planes on PCBs. The naive think that, because copper is a good conductor, a PCB everywhere on a ground plane is at the same potential. Unfortunately not, and the more experienced hardware engineers know it. Start by realising that if there is a signal conductor between a transmitter and receiver, then the return current doesn't go back directly from the receiver to the transmitter. Instead, at high frequencies, it is concentrated underneath and follows the signal conductor. And current flow is intimitely related to potential differences, and vice versa.

Exactly analogous phenomena occur in electrical distribution networks, except that the frequencies tend to be lower and the currents higher.

So no, the phenomena I allude to are real and important, not theoretial and esoteric.

That's true. But you also must know that a ground plane on a PCB isn't the same as an earth connection.
That occours on a ground plane due to copper resistence and due to high frequencies (you don't give time to the copper potential balances).
In a thunderstorm you don't have that high currents for too long, I think... I live in a place where there's lightning strikes once or twice in a year, so I'm not used to it. But I think that a lightning strike only affects a small portion of the earth, and not the entire earth potential...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 13, 2016, 08:32:10 am
Forget the concept of "0V" or ground or earth, since they are all fiction that has some use in some limited instances.

After reading that, I felt like asking if there is such a thing as a standard voltage (or standard ground), kinda like we have a GPS frequency standard and some way of determining absolute power (dBm). But then what you are saying suggests that V is merely relative, like dB. Yet, V seems to be a fundamental component of power.

If such thing was needed, the earth is the absolute 0.

If only that was true, it would make engineering certain systems much simpler.

Start by considering why, in a thunderstorm, you are advised to keep your two feet together (amongst other advice). Consider what happens when there is a lightning strike nearby and large currents flow through the ground you are standing on. Hint: you don't want sufficient potential difference between your feet that some current goes throught your body.

If you don't like high current engineering, then consider antennas. Start by considering the physical processes by which monopole antennas "appear" to be twice their physical length. Hint: it is because currents flowing in the earth create a virtual image of the real physical antenna.

You are considering extreme conditions. But even in that conditions, the lightning strike just flows to the phisical ground because the earth doesn't have any potential and the current allways flows to the lowest potential possible with less resistence. So I don't see your point...
And also, I don't see any significan simplicity considering earth as the absolute 0V. Like some guys said here, voltage is just a matter of potential difference and the earth potential is a bit irrelevant.

In what way, exactly, do antennas represent "extreme conditions"?

If you want something "closer to home", consider the current flows in ground planes on PCBs. The naive think that, because copper is a good conductor, a PCB everywhere on a ground plane is at the same potential. Unfortunately not, and the more experienced hardware engineers know it. Start by realising that if there is a signal conductor between a transmitter and receiver, then the return current doesn't go back directly from the receiver to the transmitter. Instead, at high frequencies, it is concentrated underneath and follows the signal conductor. And current flow is intimitely related to potential differences, and vice versa.

Exactly analogous phenomena occur in electrical distribution networks, except that the frequencies tend to be lower and the currents higher.

So no, the phenomena I allude to are real and important, not theoretial and esoteric.

That's true. But you also must know that a ground plane on a PCB isn't the same as an earth connection.
That occours on a ground plane due to copper resistence and due to high frequencies (you don't give time to the copper potential balances).

The analogy is still valid; the speed of light and distance are the relevant parameters. As I explicitly stated, with electrical distribution networks the relevant frequencies are lower. Obviously you realise that lower frequencies imply longer time periods.

Quote
In a thunderstorm you don't have that high currents for too long, I think...

True, but that doesn't affect the point under discussion.

Quote
But I think that a lightning strike only affects a small portion of the earth, and not the entire earth potential...

And how, exactly, are you going to measure "the entire earth potential"? Your answer should take account of the speed of light.

You really, really should have a look at the precautions taken in industrial systems to take account of differing "earth" potentials.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on August 13, 2016, 08:34:54 am
you should check the legislation in your country and what it says on the subject.. oh if it is a fun subject.
besides lightning, during a short to ground of an home appliance the earthing system resistance bust be lower than X mOhm because the ground potential around your house mustn't rise above Y volts or else the safety measures could not function properly and remove the short

and X depends mainly on the kind of soil under/around your house, which will also vary with temperature and humidity

sorry for being so vague, i studied as an electrical technician in high school but i never wanted to go on with that career so i forgot all the numbers but the concept is there
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on August 13, 2016, 08:36:09 am
oh and about the "derailing"
it itsn't the first in this topic, it won't be the last.

rule 25.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on August 13, 2016, 08:43:55 am
That's true. But you also must know that a ground plane on a PCB isn't the same as an earth connection.
That occours on a ground plane due to copper resistence and due to high frequencies (you don't give time to the copper potential balances).

The analogy is still valid; the speed of light and distance are the relevant parameters. As I explicitly stated, with electrical distribution networks the relevant frequencies are lower. Obviously you realise that lower frequencies imply longer time periods.

Quote
In a thunderstorm you don't have that high currents for too long, I think...

True, but that doesn't affect the point under discussion.

Quote
But I think that a lightning strike only affects a small portion of the earth, and not the entire earth potential...

And how, exactly, are you going to measure "the entire earth potential"? Your answer should take account of the speed of light.

You really, really should have a look at the precautions taken in industrial systems to take account of differing "earth" potentials.

You don't need to measure the entire earth potential. You just need to try to "send" the lightning strike to another earth connection than the one used by you, no?

I don't know almost anything of the industrial protection systems and how they deppend on earth connections, what I know is that the earth plane created in each build (house, factory, High voltage line supports, whatever) has a lot of testing in order to reach a regulated resistance value (in the order of mOhm). With this I just want to make clear that an earth point is virtually isolated from another point few meter away. If you just put a wire on the ground you won't have (it just won't work, believe me) an earth point.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tggzzz on August 13, 2016, 11:35:46 am
That's true. But you also must know that a ground plane on a PCB isn't the same as an earth connection.
That occours on a ground plane due to copper resistence and due to high frequencies (you don't give time to the copper potential balances).

The analogy is still valid; the speed of light and distance are the relevant parameters. As I explicitly stated, with electrical distribution networks the relevant frequencies are lower. Obviously you realise that lower frequencies imply longer time periods.

Quote
In a thunderstorm you don't have that high currents for too long, I think...

True, but that doesn't affect the point under discussion.

Quote
But I think that a lightning strike only affects a small portion of the earth, and not the entire earth potential...

And how, exactly, are you going to measure "the entire earth potential"? Your answer should take account of the speed of light.

You really, really should have a look at the precautions taken in industrial systems to take account of differing "earth" potentials.

You don't need to measure the entire earth potential. You just need to try to "send" the lightning strike to another earth connection than the one used by you, no?

I don't know almost anything of the industrial protection systems and how they deppend on earth connections, what I know is that the earth plane created in each build (house, factory, High voltage line supports, whatever) has a lot of testing in order to reach a regulated resistance value (in the order of mOhm). With this I just want to make clear that an earth point is virtually isolated from another point few meter away. If you just put a wire on the ground you won't have (it just won't work, believe me) an earth point.

And there we have the source of your statements, and your ignoring several examples (e.g. monopole antennas).

You partially understand how domestic 50Hz electrical systems work in a house.
You are (incorrectly) generalising that to non-domestic systems.
You are (incorrectly) generalising that to >>50Hz systems.
You are (incorrectly) generalising that to physically large systems.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on August 13, 2016, 11:49:06 am
That's true. But you also must know that a ground plane on a PCB isn't the same as an earth connection.
That occours on a ground plane due to copper resistence and due to high frequencies (you don't give time to the copper potential balances).

The analogy is still valid; the speed of light and distance are the relevant parameters. As I explicitly stated, with electrical distribution networks the relevant frequencies are lower. Obviously you realise that lower frequencies imply longer time periods.

Quote
In a thunderstorm you don't have that high currents for too long, I think...

True, but that doesn't affect the point under discussion.

Quote
But I think that a lightning strike only affects a small portion of the earth, and not the entire earth potential...

And how, exactly, are you going to measure "the entire earth potential"? Your answer should take account of the speed of light.

You really, really should have a look at the precautions taken in industrial systems to take account of differing "earth" potentials.

You don't need to measure the entire earth potential. You just need to try to "send" the lightning strike to another earth connection than the one used by you, no?

I don't know almost anything of the industrial protection systems and how they deppend on earth connections, what I know is that the earth plane created in each build (house, factory, High voltage line supports, whatever) has a lot of testing in order to reach a regulated resistance value (in the order of mOhm). With this I just want to make clear that an earth point is virtually isolated from another point few meter away. If you just put a wire on the ground you won't have (it just won't work, believe me) an earth point.

And there we have the source of your statements, and your ignoring several examples (e.g. monopole antennas).

You partially understand how domestic 50Hz electrical systems work in a house.
You are (incorrectly) generalising that to non-domestic systems.
You are (incorrectly) generalising that to >>50Hz systems.
You are (incorrectly) generalising that to physically large systems.

I'm talking about electrical power lines. They don't serve only houses, their earth plane is independent of the use that power will have.
I didn't spoke about >>50Hz systems. I did generalize my statements but I know that specific niches have their specific regulations.

But what does that have to do with 'scopes ground? Why this discussion started? Also, I don't understand why you're so agressive and why are you just "spiting" statements and don't be more specific...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: freebil on August 13, 2016, 02:36:55 pm
Hello. Is it possible to connect ds1054z with lan cable to pc and see fft from matlab?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 13, 2016, 03:07:24 pm
Hello. Is it possible to connect ds1054z with lan cable to pc and see fft from matlab?

https://www.mathworks.com/products/instrument/supported/rigol-technologies.html (https://www.mathworks.com/products/instrument/supported/rigol-technologies.html)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: freebil on August 13, 2016, 03:14:22 pm
Hello. Is it possible to connect ds1054z with lan cable to pc and see fft from matlab?

https://www.mathworks.com/products/instrument/supported/rigol-technologies.html (https://www.mathworks.com/products/instrument/supported/rigol-technologies.html)

Thanks for the reply but I saw this before. There is no driver for ds1054z in any of two categories.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 13, 2016, 03:52:31 pm
Thanks for the reply but I saw this before. There is no driver for ds1054z in any of two categories.

I think that page is just old. The command interface on the DS1054Z is the same as all the other Rigol models in the list.

FWIW: The official DS1054Z programming manual has a whole chapter on how to use a one with MATLAB. Section 3-7 even gives example code to grab some data from a DS1054Z and generate an FFT.

http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)

(Disclaimer: I haven't personally done it...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: freebil on August 13, 2016, 03:55:24 pm
I think that page is just old. The command interface on the DS1054Z is the same as all the other Rigol models in the list.

FWIW: The official DS1054Z programming manual has a whole chapter on how to use a one with MATLAB. Section 3-7 even gives example code to grab some data from a DS1054Z and generate an FFT.

http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)

(Disclaimer: I haven't personally done it...)

Wow! Thank you. This is exactly what I search!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Hagrid on August 18, 2016, 03:23:56 pm
Hello, i have now upgradet to the latest firmware too (i know i am late, i was quite busy). I think i found a minor bug. When i am in fft mode and have the cursors active in the fft window, the cursor jump to the timebase window as soon as i press "measure" -> "clear" -> delete or recover any item. The curser source still says "Math", which is incorrect. You have to rechoose "Math" to get it back in the right window.
Another thing which is not really a bug but funny somehow: You can shift the cursor to negative frequencies. It made me giggle a bit, is this typical on oscilloscope with fft/spectrum analyzers?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: freebil on August 20, 2016, 10:37:04 am
Hello. The normal is 1 or 2 boxes for a brand new ds1054z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on August 20, 2016, 10:44:41 am
Hello. The normal is 1 or 2 boxes for a brand new ds1054z?

I think that Rigol initially sent it in 2 boxes to help you sending it back if something occours, but now I don't know if they still send it that way.
I got mine about 6 months ago from Telonic and it came in just one box.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: crazyguy on August 20, 2016, 10:46:22 am
Hello. The normal is 1 or 2 boxes for a brand new ds1054z?

I bought my DS1054Z on taobao one month ago, the normal packing is 2 boxes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2016, 11:25:13 am
Hello. The normal is 1 or 2 boxes for a brand new ds1054z?

2

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on August 20, 2016, 11:32:27 am
Normal delivery from the factory is double boxed in either 1, 2 or 4 units/box.
Receive a 2 or 4 scope order in a large box, then break it down then each unit will be in single boxes.

Either is acceptable packaging.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: raptor1956 on August 21, 2016, 02:00:50 am
I ordered mine a few weeks ago from Amazon and it arrived in an Amazon outer box followed by two more Rigol boxes inside that -- so three altogether...


Brian
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NexusKoolaid on August 21, 2016, 06:34:50 am
Hello. The normal is 1 or 2 boxes for a brand new ds1054z?
I ordered mine from TEquipment on Amazon (not Prime or FBA), and it came in one box.   ???
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on August 21, 2016, 06:46:46 am
Mine arrived also double boxed.
At work, almost every instrument we bought arrived double boxed as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thomastheo on August 22, 2016, 12:00:47 am
I bought mine from Batronix in Germany. It was shipped in a single box.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kcbrown on August 22, 2016, 01:05:32 am
One thing I don't think I saw mentioned: how is the UI responsiveness with 04.04.00.07 compared with 04.03.01.05 (04.03.SP1)?  I've intentionally kept my scope on 04.03.01.05 in order to avoid the issues with SP2 (especially the UI issues), but if the UI responsiveness is the same for both 04.04 and 04.03.SP1 then it sounds like there's little reason to remain on 04.03.SP1.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on August 22, 2016, 02:04:20 am
FWIW, mine came in a double box directly from TEquipment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gardner on August 22, 2016, 03:20:47 pm
Electro-Meters (Rigol Canada)
http://www.rigolcanada.com/ (http://www.rigolcanada.com/)

One box.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: szpila on August 22, 2016, 03:36:33 pm
One thing I don't think I saw mentioned: how is the UI responsiveness with 04.04.00.07 compared with 04.03.01.05 (04.03.SP1)?  I've intentionally kept my scope on 04.03.01.05 in order to avoid the issues with SP2 (especially the UI issues), but if the UI responsiveness is the same for both 04.04 and 04.03.SP1 then it sounds like there's little reason to remain on 04.03.SP1.
Be carefull. My ds1054z fw is 04.03.SP1 and i don't have rms bug, like people with last two versions of firmware. So, for full screen X-Y mode, for me is not worthy to update to latest firmware.

Klepni?te z Redmi2 2GB

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: IAmBack on August 23, 2016, 12:25:03 pm
Hello everyone.
Anyone noticed Math->Filter bug? With the recent version of FW (probably with former version too) signal at the output of Math/Filter is shifted (delayed), and starts with "delay" - left side of the filtered signal's plot is "deleted", and the "deleted" interval is about equal to the time of the "delay".
BTW, RIGOL used non-casual filtering algorithm, and its response may look little strange in some situations.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on August 23, 2016, 10:32:19 pm
Well, I've certainly noticed it. I can't remember if it did this on the previous firmware or not, but I'm sure we will hear from people who haven't "upgraded" yet who can test it for us.

The Filter trace always starts 1.5 divisions to the right of the left edge of the graticule area, no matter what timebase setting. The trace itself seems to lag about 1/2 division or so, more or less, depending on timebase setting.



Oh... and boxes:
First one, from TEquipment, two boxes
Second one, from TEquipment, one box
Third one, from Rigol USA, one box, that had been sent to some other state, was returned to Rigol, then sent to me. (Old shipping labels still on it.)


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on August 24, 2016, 12:52:39 am
I have no Math Filter in my ooooold version (if it's there I missed it), but the lag and missing part lead me to think they are doing some convolution mumbo jumbo and need a number of points before producing a result and they did not care to shift the result back (probably because, since all computations appears to be done on visualized data, they would miss the same part at the end).

Just guessing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 24, 2016, 05:25:23 am
I get the same filter delay on 04.03.01.05. Unfortunately, I can't save a screenshot right now because the scope doesn't like my made-in-China thumb drive. Irony? :-DD

All the buttons stop functioning after inserting the drive. It's a 2GB formatted using FAT32 and I tried 1K, 2K and 4K cluster sizes. Oh, well. I'll have to find the one I used for firmware updates before. That one worked.

Anyway, the delay looks the same as what IAmBack posted.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on August 24, 2016, 06:21:32 am
One thing I don't think I saw mentioned: how is the UI responsiveness with 04.04.00.07 compared with 04.03.01.05 (04.03.SP1)?  I've intentionally kept my scope on 04.03.01.05 in order to avoid the issues with SP2 (especially the UI issues), but if the UI responsiveness is the same for both 04.04 and 04.03.SP1 then it sounds like there's little reason to remain on 04.03.SP1.
No improvement noticed. Still slow as hell

***
I don't think for a second that the delay on filtering is a bug. You should know that math is calculated from data on the screen buffer.
i don't know how exactly they are filtering, probably the same fir which taps gets 'compressed' for higher cutoffs so the delay between the first input and the first output increases... before that there is no data.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: IAmBack on August 24, 2016, 05:53:27 pm
***
I don't think for a second that the delay on filtering is a bug. You should know that math is calculated from data on the screen buffer.
i don't know how exactly they are filtering, probably the same fir which taps gets 'compressed' for higher cutoffs so the delay between the first input and the first output increases... before that there is no data.

It is a bug. Rigol used non-casual filtering algorithm (which means that response is calculated not only with "past" samples but also "future" samples - when You look at the plot, it reacts before the occurence of input signal change. If the oscilloscope's reaction is the result of data processing, plot should be truncated on both sizes of the screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on August 25, 2016, 01:50:25 am
That doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, it is a bug. Yes, it is a _digital sampling oscilloscope_ so _everything_ you see on the screen is a result of data processing. The result of any math operation should be displayed as properly synchronized with the trace data that is being operated upon.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on August 25, 2016, 02:25:35 am
yeah. and it is interesting in the options you can set the start and end point of the filter. Totally cool!!!

Maybe it's me, but why would using a low pass filter set to 20 khz cause so much ripple on a 1 khz square wave? Lowering the filter smooths it out, and that makes sense. OK, maybe it makes sense, I guess, if the 20th (or so) harmonic really contributes to the squareness - I was just thinking of the discussion of how much bandwidth is required to show a square wave as a square...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: newbrain on August 25, 2016, 07:25:54 am
yeah. and it is interesting in the options you can set the start and end point of the filter. Totally cool!!!

Maybe it's me, but why would using a low pass filter set to 20 khz cause so much ripple on a 1 khz square wave? Lowering the filter smooths it out, and that makes sense. OK, maybe it makes sense, I guess, if the 20th (or so) harmonic really contributes to the squareness - I was just thinking of the discussion of how much bandwidth is required to show a square wave as a square...
The shape depends heavily on the phase and roll-off characteristics of the filter.
A simple RC-like filter (1st order, slow roll off, phase shift) will give a "smoothed" wave, but a perfect brick-wall, no phase shift filter gives you a rippling waveform, see the attachment.
Such a filter is impossible in reality as its time-domain response extends infinitely in the future and in the past, so it can only be approximated (easier in the digital world, I would say).
For a nice animation, see Gibbs phenomenon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_phenomenon).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on August 25, 2016, 03:25:24 pm
Thanks!

I also noticed in Options there are a few fx operations, but not understanding what they are supposed to do. For example, the selection is already A+B, but changing the operation to A-B or any other seems to have no effect on the math trace (when using low pass filter as shown by alsetalokin4017)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 25, 2016, 05:25:09 pm
See page 6-22 of the manual.

Unless you have selected a Math Operator function (e.g., Intg) in the Operator menu that uses the output of the fx Operator function in the Options menu, changing the latter won't have any effect on the former.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on August 25, 2016, 06:59:32 pm
The shape depends heavily on the phase and roll-off characteristics of the filter.
A simple RC-like filter (1st order, slow roll off, phase shift) will give a "smoothed" wave, but a perfect brick-wall, no phase shift filter gives you a rippling waveform, see the attachment.
Such a filter is impossible in reality as its time-domain response extends infinitely in the future and in the past, so it can only be approximated (easier in the digital world, I would say).
For a nice animation, see Gibbs phenomenon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_phenomenon).

I probably got caught by this when evaluating a Tektronix MSO5204 a couple years ago.  It has both hardware and DSP bandwidth limiting and to my surprise, they did *not* match at high frequencies with the DSP filters displaying what was probably the Gibbs phenomenon do to their steep rolloff.  At least the Tektronix engineers could not explain it either; I suspect they were not used to dealing with a prospective customer who pulls a 250ps reference level pulse generator designed specifically for oscilloscope evaluation out of their pocket.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on August 25, 2016, 07:35:55 pm
See page 6-22 of the manual.

Unless you have selected a Math Operator function (e.g., Intg) in the Operator menu that uses the output of the fx Operator function in the Options menu, changing the latter won't have any effect on the former.

Perhaps they should then be grayed out, like some of the other options. It was not really clear what would be the point of those options anyway. I'm not near the scope, but aren't these settings already on the top level menu for the other math operators (and BTW, filter is under the Math menu, so assumed it is one of the math functions)?

I think someone made a cheat sheet for all the menus - a menu tree, yes?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 25, 2016, 08:31:26 pm
Perhaps they should then be grayed out, like some of the other options. It was not really clear what would be the point of those options anyway.
Yeah, lots of equipment have interaction design issues.

Quote
I'm not near the scope, but aren't these settings already on the top level menu for the other math operators (and BTW, filter is under the Math menu, so assumed it is one of the math functions)?

The manual explains how the math functions operate and, more specifically, how the fx Operators layer into them. Check out the example they give on the page I referred to.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2016, 06:04:59 am
I probably got caught by this when evaluating a Tektronix MSO5204 a couple years ago.  It has both hardware and DSP bandwidth limiting and to my surprise, they did *not* match at high frequencies with the DSP filters

Blasphemy!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: quetzalcoatl on August 26, 2016, 09:45:50 am
I have read the SCPI commands automatically from the SDRAM.
Below is the list of commands from the firmware 00.04.03.01.05 (00.04.03.SP1).

A few commands are undocumented in the Programming Manual.
The parameters necessary to determine itself.

Peter

Edit: Undocumented commands are indented with a tab.
It was compared to the programming manual of December, 2015.
Some commands are described in the programming manual from the DS2000.

I'm currently doing researching programming interfaces of DS1054Z, including commands. Searching for strings is trivial, but that returns just parts of the commands. I'm curious - how did you manage to rebuild the full commands? did you discover some pointer tables or lists that point to partial strings? Could you share how they are structured?

I some time ago I have browsed through 00.04.03.01.05 image contents, and although I have not managed to rebuild a full command set, I have found out a few more commands than you have published now. It may mean that there are several command sets in the memory. You could try running your method on the other ones and see what else it finds.

Also, I have discovered/guessed meaning of some of the undocumented commands and spent a long time investigating curious limitations of :WAV:DATA? transfers - I've read that people have a hard time reading 24Mpts with transfer speeds like 100Kpts samples per sec, the 2015 programming guide says that max raw transfer speed is 250Kpts in one block read. :WAV:DATA? is unintuitive in a few aspects, but I'm currently successfully reading the data using >1Mpts blocks (NI-VISA drivers) and I'm quite suprised I can't find any information on it, neither here on forum, nor on the internet. But maybe just my googling skills suck?

Naturally I was going to write a blog post about all of my findings (and probably I will anyways*), but now after finding your command list it got me thinking - is there any wiki/repo/etc where we could gather&merge such knowledge and tools?

*) but looking back at my years-old and still unpublished research/tools on Hantek DSO2090.. ..it takes me a while sometimes:)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: freebil on August 26, 2016, 10:50:42 am
Hello. I am trying to read more than 1212 points in matlab but I cant.

Code: [Select]
DSO1000Z = visa('ni','TCPIP0::192.168.1.101::INSTR');
DSO1000Z.InputBufferSize = 2048;
fopen(DSO1000Z);
fprintf(DSO1000Z, ':wav:data?' );
data= fread(DSO1000Z,2048);

Matlab reads 1212 points whatever input buffer size I enter. Any tips?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: quetzalcoatl on August 26, 2016, 11:12:12 am
Hello. I am trying to read more than 1212 points in matlab but I cant.

Code: [Select]
DSO1000Z = visa('ni','TCPIP0::192.168.1.101::INSTR');
DSO1000Z.InputBufferSize = 2048;
fopen(DSO1000Z);
fprintf(DSO1000Z, ':wav:data?' );
data= fread(DSO1000Z,2048);

Matlab reads 1212 points whatever input buffer size I enter. Any tips?

if you get max ~1200 points, it means that you are reading from the screen buffer, not from the main memory. check out the programming guide, it is explained there. In short:

- if the device is in RUN mode, only screen buffer is available to read, it contains, wel, the data on the screen, which is aggregated and trimmed down to the whereabouts of the screen resolution
- once the device is in STOP mode, you have to send :WAV:MODE and :WAV:FORM commands to pick RAW reading mode, and then you will be able to read from "internal memory" buffer and get the actual full readout

see the 2015 programming guide, not 2013 not 2014. 2015 version has much more information, including how to read the memory part-by-part
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: quetzalcoatl on August 26, 2016, 11:53:27 am
I'm currently doing researching programming interfaces of DS1054Z, including commands. Searching for strings is trivial, but that returns just parts of the commands. I'm curious - how did you manage to rebuild the full commands? did you discover some pointer tables or lists that point to partial strings? Could you share how they are structured?

I found a table and wrote a program to read with Xojo.
I can not enough English to describe the table exactly.
I understood the fields not complete. However, it is sufficient to create the commands.

By reading out the wave data I've done experiments, see picture.

Thanks for sharing it! I looked at the table and it's close to my results, but not exactly the same.

The're many complications to explain how exactly the data-length work.. I'll try to summarize it shortly

There are at least three types of it:
(RAW/BYTE reading mode)
- full-width (blocksize=64b): 1179584 .. 1179647 *)
- half-width (blocksize=32b): 589792 .. 589823
- quarter-width (blocksize=16b): 294896 .. 294911
- **)

Depending on certain conditions, your device may happen to be in of those three states (full, half, quarter), and the single-read data-length limit will be in the range as above, eaxct value will vary depending on the START position you send to the device. So, if the device is in quarter mode, if you send one start position you can get i.e. max 294899 bytes at once from that pos, but if you send different START position, you may get i.e. max 294905 bytes at once from that pos.

It actually fluctuates in a deterministic way, but it's tricky on many levels:
- the varying max-data-length follows a certain pattern
- but that pattern shifts randomly after each measurement
- and also the 'full/half/quarter' mode of the device is quite nasty thing, because you can't easily read it (you have to check few things and deduce it), and can't easily configure it (it is selected automatically at BOOT TIME depending on the number of selected channels at BOOT TIME, and seems to be locked until SHUTDOWN -!aargh!-)

However, I've got many aspects of that analyzed already. I'll write a post about it during the weekend and write back here.

Anyways if there are any pages wikis or other threads I missed I'd be grateful for links or contact to mantainers :)

*) in your table there's a 1179648 value - I'm pretty sure it is not possible, you probably got a +-1 error when you calculated it
**) I found out only these modes, because I worked in RAW/BYTE combinations and certain settings. It is possible that there are more modes after 1/4, for example like 1/8 (147k), 1/16 (73k) etc. - I will later compare my settings with your table to see ifI can get them. However I think they don't exist, becuse the device has only 4 channels, so there's no need for more divisions than /1,/2,/4 that I already found
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 26, 2016, 05:06:46 pm
Some threads? That's an impressive index, PeDre!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mnementh on September 01, 2016, 07:06:44 pm
Sooooo.... has the 500uV bug been fixed in firmware yet?

*Ducks soggy ol' boot thrown in his general direction*

Guess not... ;)


mnem
*agitating-ily*
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on September 01, 2016, 10:06:14 pm
I get the same filter delay on 04.03.01.05. Unfortunately, I can't save a screenshot right now because the scope doesn't like my made-in-China thumb drive. Irony? :-DD

All the buttons stop functioning after inserting the drive. It's a 2GB formatted using FAT32 and I tried 1K, 2K and 4K cluster sizes. Oh, well. I'll have to find the one I used for firmware updates before. That one worked.

Anyway, the delay looks the same as what IAmBack posted.

This may not be useful advice, but check to make sure you have the USB option set to Computer instead of Printer.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ceoxrad on September 03, 2016, 07:05:40 pm
Hi, first post here so if I'm doing something wrong please be kind  :)
I recently purchased a rigol ds1054z and I want to unlock it.
I've done some reading about it on the forum, the content in there is really a lot and I still have some doubts about it:
My scope came with SW version 00.04.03.SP2, if I hack it can I upgrade the firmware after it? (for example to 00.04.04)
If I upgrade before the hack, will it work on 00.04.04? Is the upgrade worth it?
I'm sorry to ask so many questions in my first post, and please forgive my poor English.
Thank you in advance
Marco
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2016, 07:23:27 pm
Hi, first post here so if I'm doing something wrong please be kind  :)
I recently purchased a rigol ds1054z and I want to unlock it.
I've done some reading about it on the forum, the content in there is really a lot and I still have some doubts about it:
My scope came with SW version 00.04.03.SP2, if I hack it can I upgrade the firmware after it? (for example to 00.04.04)
If I upgrade before the hack, will it work on 00.04.04? Is the upgrade worth it?
a) Yes.
b) Yes.
c) Definitely!

please forgive my poor English.

It was perfect.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ceoxrad on September 03, 2016, 07:31:59 pm
Thank you very much for your response, i'm upgrading right now
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pelule on September 03, 2016, 08:03:43 pm
I did just some weeks ago.
I newly received the DS1054Z, had firmware 00.04.03.SP2.
Unlocked all features (except the 500uV option, as described in the forum (quite an easy task)
Updated to new firmware 00.04.04
Works fine.
So don't worry.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2016, 08:20:36 pm
Unlocked all features (except the 500uV option, as described in the forum (quite an easy task)

Yes, the 500uV option doesn't work. Best not to unlock that so you can't select it accidentally.

Rigol can't ever stop these codes from working because they sell them as upgrades. They can't put out a firmware update that stops legitimate keys from working.

(Although the bandwidth isn't an option, I guess they could block that in theory. I don't think there's a way for the BIOS to know what the hardware is though - if it could decide the bandwidth based on a hardware difference then there wouldn't be an unlock. Either way, don't worry).

PS: I'd use the 'scope for a few days before unlocking it, just in case there's any problems and you need to send it back. All the features except bandwidth are unlocked anyway so you can play with them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ceoxrad on September 03, 2016, 08:55:18 pm
I did the upgrade, I hacked all option except the 500uV (DSER) and finally an autocal. Everything works perfectly and I haven't had any problems during the procedure.
As you said (I've haven't seen the post since I was doing the work in that precise moment) I should have waited to do the unlocking, but I couldn't resist.. during my inital check everything worked and now there is no apparent change.
BTW In the unfortunate event of something wrong I can revert the hack with the SCPI console of Ultrasigma, can't I?
I also quickly "checked" the bandwidth with a fast risetime generator (based on a 74AC14) and the rise time changed from approx 3.2ns to 2.4ns.
Overall I'm super happy with my new purchase,this product feels very good, it's not even comparable with my old scope (beaten up 20MHz analog).
Thank you all!

Edit: forgot the ic code
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2016, 09:05:49 pm
In the unfortunate event of something wrong I can revert the hack with the SCPI console of Ultrasigma, can't I?

Yes.

(Assuming it still powers on normally... :popcorn: )

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Plasmateur on September 04, 2016, 08:11:36 am
I am looking for the LabView software released by Alessandro for this scope but can't seem to find it on the NI website. Does anyone have a link to this software?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on September 04, 2016, 10:36:51 am
I did the upgrade, I hacked all option except the 500uV (DSER) and finally an autocal. Everything works perfectly and I haven't had any problems during the procedure.
As you said (I've haven't seen the post since I was doing the work in that precise moment) I should have waited to do the unlocking, but I couldn't resist.. during my inital check everything worked and now there is no apparent change.
BTW In the unfortunate event of something wrong I can revert the hack with the SCPI console of Ultrasigma, can't I?
I also quickly "checked" the bandwidth with a fast risetime generator (based on a 74AC14) and the rise time changed from approx 3.2ns to 2.4ns.
Overall I'm super happy with my new purchase,this product feels very good, it's not even comparable with my old scope (beaten up 20MHz analog).
Thank you all!

Edit: forgot the ic code
Being calculated from on-screen data the rise time measurement will vary with the timebase (of course) but also with the amplitude, number of active channels and memory depth (at that speed, high wfm/s, the scope jitter...)
abd of course the actual shape. Just for fun i measured the trigger output because it was the fastest thing i got at hand. Piece of coax, Terminated input, line trigger... i got 2 ns. I don't think the scope will be faster than that :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2016, 11:08:15 am
The official DS1054Z spec claims a rise time of 7ns for a 50MHz scope and 3.5ns for a 100Mhz scope.

The real bandwidths have been measured here and found to exceed the spec by 30% or more (which explains your 2.4ns measured rise time for the unlocked 'scope...)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on September 05, 2016, 10:44:34 am
Rigol can't ever stop these codes from working because they sell them as upgrades. They can't put out a firmware update that stops legitimate keys from working.

Well, in principle they could introduce a new, stronger coding scheme for the unlock codes, hoping that no one breaks that too soon, and offer a "trade-in" program for legitimate buyers of old unlock codes/options. But I agree that this is very unlikely to happen, given the hassle it would mean for Rigol (verifying proof of purchase for legitimate options) and for users (having to obtain new codes after a firmware update to get options back).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Siegurd on September 05, 2016, 01:01:59 pm
Hello, please help how to run a continuous signal recording on a flash drive? I want to use this oscilloscope as recorder to monitor one signal source (record time in about several days). Maybe there is a normal software for PC to carry this record? I've tried the native software (Ultra Sigma + UltraScope) but it seemed to me UltraScope can not record the long time dependence of signal amplitude to a file (it can save individual screen 1 time per second).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2016, 01:08:47 pm
Hello, please help how to run a continuous signal recording on a flash drive? I want to use this oscilloscope as recorder to monitor one signal source (record time in about several days). Maybe there is a normal software for PC to carry this record?

You can connect a USB cable and use (eg.) a Python script to grab data. There's lots of examples on the web.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Siegurd on September 05, 2016, 02:05:29 pm
Hello, please help how to run a continuous signal recording on a flash drive? I want to use this oscilloscope as recorder to monitor one signal source (record time in about several days). Maybe there is a normal software for PC to carry this record?
You can connect a USB cable and use (eg.) a Python script to grab data. There's lots of examples on the web.

I use Matlab I and tried to get out of the oscilloscope data, but it turns out only 1212 points as in USB and in Lan connection. (Screen data - fprintf(MSO1000Z, ':wav:data?' )).
How do I get the data from the memory (RAW-data)?
I tried to get the RAW data from the memory with the command:
fprintf (MSO1000Z, ': wav: mode raw');
but unsuccessfully:
Warning: Unsuccessful read: The EOI line was asserted before SIZE values were available.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bicurico on September 05, 2016, 08:11:03 pm
Rigol can't ever stop these codes from working because they sell them as upgrades. They can't put out a firmware update that stops legitimate keys from working.

Well, in principle they could introduce a new, stronger coding scheme for the unlock codes, hoping that no one breaks that too soon, and offer a "trade-in" program for legitimate buyers of old unlock codes/options. But I agree that this is very unlikely to happen, given the hassle it would mean for Rigol (verifying proof of purchase for legitimate options) and for users (having to obtain new codes after a firmware update to get options back).

It could be done in an easier way, especially for new customers,  however if they would do so,  I guess people would stop buying this model and opt for a slightly better though a bit more expensive model.

The hack made Rigol famous and the current number one hobby scope. I don't know if it was on purpose or not,  but that doesn't matter now. It was a good thing to happen to Rigol.

Also,  for hobby use,  it makes no difference if you hack your device or not,  as most people weren't in the market for the expensive options anyway.  They might however want to have those options at work and here most companies would not dare to hack their devices.

Regards
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2016, 09:16:18 am
The hack made Rigol famous and the current number one hobby scope. I don't know if it was on purpose or not,  but that doesn't matter now. It was a good thing to happen to Rigol.

Rigol has been "allowing" it for quite a long time now. The previous generation DS1052E was also unlockable to a DS1102E.

It's safe to say they know all about Riglol and they know that people are unlocking them.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on September 06, 2016, 03:00:04 pm
I just noticed a new part number for the latest bundled probes - PVP2150.

http://int.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20160905/PVP2150_UserGuide_CN&EN.pdf (http://int.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20160905/PVP2150_UserGuide_CN&EN.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: IAmBack on September 14, 2016, 10:30:48 am
Our Hero got new fw. update.

http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

DS1000Z Firmware_00.04.04.01.01 2MB 2016-09-14

"
[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14
     - Supported the multi-inteface of LXI
     - Fixed bugs about Measure
"

Who first :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on September 14, 2016, 10:36:27 am
Just to complete:

Quote
[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14
     - Supported the multi-inteface of LXI
     - Fixed bugs about Measure

Is the "Pluses" typo already fixed?  :D

And how about the RMS problems? Have they already fixed it? If yes, it was fast!!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 14, 2016, 10:52:33 am
Nothing related to the time-difference bug?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg862373/#msg862373 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg862373/#msg862373)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on September 14, 2016, 11:14:12 am
Another one? genuinelly impressed
will try tonight
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2016, 12:39:12 pm
Bi-Monthly updates? Cool!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Galenbo on September 14, 2016, 01:03:55 pm
Rigol has been "allowing" it for quite a long time now. The previous generation DS1052E was also unlockable to a DS1102E.

It's safe to say they know all about Riglol and they know that people are unlocking them.
For Rigol it's a good trick to get rid of all potential warranty claims.
For the customer too: he can choose between warranty and extra functions.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2016, 01:16:31 pm
For Rigol it's a good trick to get rid of all potential warranty claims.

Well,
a) The features can easily be locked again, leaving no trace (as far as anybody here knows).
and
b) I don't recall a single person posting here posting about warranty problems because of unlocking.

I don't know if (b) is because they're built so well that there's not many failures yet* or if it's because Rigol doesn't ask many questions. I don't really care either way.

(*) Yes, there have been a few cases of people posting about scopes that were DOA but I don't recall anybody posting about long-term failure yet. It's coming up to two years since it was released, so....  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on September 14, 2016, 02:19:13 pm
I can confirm that v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14 fixes RMS bug!

Good job on this one Rigol...

I will check more but this was only serious gripe for me at the time..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on September 14, 2016, 02:21:25 pm
I can confirm that v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14 fixes RMS bug!

Good job on this one Rigol...

I will check more but this was only serious gripe for me at the time..

And the UI isn't slow anymore?

And, btw, how about the "Pluses"?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on September 14, 2016, 02:27:23 pm
I can confirm that v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14 fixes RMS bug!

Good job on this one Rigol...

I will check more but this was only serious gripe for me at the time..

And the UI isn't slow anymore?

And, btw, how about the "Pluses"?

I don't find UI to be bothersome... I will check it more later..

And it does say +Pulses and -Pulses, so I guess that is fixed, not that I care... I understood what it meant anyways..  Funny, but not important... But RMS measurement was serious thing and I'm very glad it works now..

And now of to work ...

Cheers!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2016, 02:42:28 pm
I can confirm that v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14 fixes RMS bug!

So that's basically everything fixed then.

I'm sure people will still keep on saying "Yaigol" to newbies but there's not much to be done about that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on September 14, 2016, 02:45:41 pm
I can confirm that v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14 fixes RMS bug!

Good job on this one Rigol...

I will check more but this was only serious gripe for me at the time..

And the UI isn't slow anymore?

And, btw, how about the "Pluses"?

I don't find UI to be bothersome... I will check it more later..

And it does say +Pulses and -Pulses, so I guess that is fixed, not that I care... I understood what it meant anyways..  Funny, but not important... But RMS measurement was serious thing and I'm very glad it works now..

And now of to work ...

Cheers!

Well thank you about that! Now this is a update that I'm going to make this weekend.

Nice to know that they finally have heard the costumers and fixed the issues (some of them a bit late, but it's solved anyway).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2016, 02:58:20 pm
Well thank you about that! Now this is a update that I'm going to make this weekend.

Nice to know that they finally have heard the costumers and fixed the issues (some of them a bit late, but it's solved anyway).

I wonder if they've started reading this...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on September 14, 2016, 03:01:05 pm
Well thank you about that! Now this is a update that I'm going to make this weekend.

Nice to know that they finally have heard the costumers and fixed the issues (some of them a bit late, but it's solved anyway).

I wonder if they've started reading this...  :popcorn:

That... Well, that will be very clever from them. I guess that they won't find another place with this bug compilation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: newbrain on September 14, 2016, 05:21:11 pm
I don't find UI to be bothersome... I will check it more later..

And it does say +Pulses and -Pulses [snippety snip]
On the menu, yes...on the on-screen measurement it's still Pluses. :-DD
Ah well, I will not complain for my scope having so many pluses over the competition...

Is the UI a tad more responsive? Or just placebo effect?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2016, 05:44:07 pm
Is the UI a tad more responsive? Or just placebo effect?

I'm thinking of a way to quantify that before I upgrade mine. I want to compare before/after.

OTOH if the difference isn't instantly obvious then they probably didn't change it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on September 14, 2016, 06:41:24 pm
HOLY SHIT IT IS (faster. a tiny noticeable bit)!
Also, the vertical reference updates with the waveform and not after a long couple of seconds. nice.

only thing left is the retarded horizontal offset knob acceleration
rms bug seems to be no more
wow. they can actually fix stuff

edit: no. only at slower time bases :(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: IAmBack on September 14, 2016, 06:42:27 pm
I don't find UI to be bothersome... I will check it more later..

And it does say +Pulses and -Pulses [snippety snip]
On the menu, yes...on the on-screen measurement it's still Pluses. :-DD
Ah well, I will not complain for my scope having so many pluses over the competition...

Is the UI a tad more responsive? Or just placebo effect?
Hopefully they won't fix it to "+Pluses" and "-Minuses" ;)
Math->Filter error (timeshift) still present.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: newbrain on September 14, 2016, 07:36:29 pm
Is the UI a tad more responsive? Or just placebo effect?

I'm thinking of a way to quantify that before I upgrade mine. I want to compare before/after.

OTOH if the difference isn't instantly obvious then they probably didn't change it.
I think I noticed a difference, but it might be just my memory...maybe someone with the old version (you?) could confirm:
When I adjust the vertical position even at slow scan rates (200ms/div) the whole trace moves up and down almost smoothly without waiting for the new scan.
Is this the same behaviour as before? I seem to remember that the position update waited for the refresh.

I should have waited...instead I just confirmed that the RMS bug was then updated and checked it's now gone.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 14, 2016, 07:57:19 pm
"Pluses": Still there

RMS crosstalk: Fixed. Yay!

Speed: Unsure. I was on 4.03.SP1 before, which supposedly wasn't slow. I didn't specifically move the trace up/down just before upgrading to 4.04.01.01 in order to compare. The speed on 4.04.01.01 seems OK to me. When setting it to a very slow scan (1.00s), the trace will immediately stop when you change the vertical position so that you don't have to wait. However, it can take several seconds for the trace to resume after you've stopped moving the trace up/down.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on September 14, 2016, 08:01:18 pm
At minimum sampling memory depth it´s fairly smooth (not to compare with a Keysight), but at higher or auto mem depth setting, it´s still a PITA. I´m not too sure if the instrument got more responsive, I rather just might have got used to it. Otherwise, the new firmware appears to be a good one...  :D

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: newbrain on September 14, 2016, 08:01:56 pm
However, it can take several seconds for the trace to resume after you've stopped moving the trace up/down.
I predict that with the trigger in its default mid-screen position it will take about 6 seconds (at 1s/div) >:D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2016, 08:39:40 pm
OK, I just updated mine.

Before I did it I had a good fiddle with the vertical position to get a good idea of what it was like before.

They seem to have tweaked it a little bit.

The way it works is that the trace on screen doesn't move until you stop twiddling the knob, only the little marker at the side of the screen moves. This is the same before+after.

The movement of the little marker is much better after the update. Before it was easy to overshoot and have to go back a little bit. That doesn't happen any more. It's much easier to get the marker to a specific place on screen first time.

A tiny improvement, but it's there. It shows they're working on it.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: newbrain on September 14, 2016, 09:08:28 pm
They seem to have tweaked it a little bit.
Thanks you, Fungus, for reassuring me about the working state of what's left of my neurons! ::)

Where I don't see an improvement is in the horizontal scrolling in zoom mode, it still has the crazy acceleration as in:
- You start to move slowly
- Almost no reaction
- So you accelerate somewhat
- Still no reaction
- You accelerate a bit more
- "Oh, then they are in a hurry!"
- Bang! to the left or right end of the screen.
- Rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Dwaine on September 14, 2016, 09:27:47 pm
Nice to see the RMS bug fixed.

It must be just me, but I really like the UI on the Rigol scopes.   I like it better than the rest of the manufactures.   I don't know why people complain about it.  It looks more polished than the other scopes in this price range.  It would be nice if Rigol offer a 9 or 10 inch LCD touch screen with this scope, but for the price.  I like it?

Dwaine
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 15, 2016, 12:11:15 am
Yep, gotta like it. For larger screens or ones with touch, it's a lot more money. This little guy works just fine for my purposes and it's easy to take it with me when needed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 15, 2016, 04:44:47 am
OK, I just updated mine.

Before I did it I had a good fiddle with the vertical position to get a good idea of what it was like before.

They seem to have tweaked it a little bit.

The way it works is that the trace on screen doesn't move until you stop twiddling the knob, only the little marker at the side of the screen moves. This is the same before+after.

The movement of the little marker is much better after the update. Before it was easy to overshoot and have to go back a little bit. That doesn't happen any more. It's much easier to get the marker to a specific place on screen first time.

A tiny improvement, but it's there. It shows they're working on it.

That's strange... Just upgraded my firmware too, but on mine, the trace moves in time with the vertical position knob and the baseline marker catches up when I stop moving the knob. This behaviour depends somewhat on the timebase setting.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on September 15, 2016, 06:30:37 am
I've done a search both here and with Google but cannot find out what has to be done to recalibrate or whatever else after a firmware update. I've got the scope just under two years ago and would like to update for the first time so any advice regarding this would be appreciated.  Calibration, gotchas, etc.  Thanks.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 15, 2016, 06:45:58 am
Copy the .GEL firmware file to a USB thumbdrive that you know works in your scope.
With the scope already running, insert the USB drive in the front panel socket of the scope.
The scope should identify the new .GEL file by version number and ask if you want to install it. The newly released file is version 00.04.04.01.01.
Tell the scope that you do want to install the new firmware.
Make sure you don't have any power failure during the update and don't remove the USB drive until it finishes.
Once the scope tells you that the update has completed, remove the USB drive and cycle the power.
Let the scope warm up for at least a half hour in the environment where you intend to be using it. (Ambient temperature changes affect the calibration.)
Remove all inputs from all BNC connectors.
Run the Self-Calibration routine found in Utility>Self-Cal>Start
It can take 20 minutes or so for the Self-Cal routine to complete.
After the Self-Calibration is done, cycle the power again.
Now connect to a signal source and go and make some pretty colored squiggly lines!

Note that you cannot roll back to an earlier firmware once a later one is installed. (Actually I haven't tested this with the very latest firmware but I expect it still to be true.)

The partial System Info screen will identify the new firmware as 00.04.04.SP1. To see the complete System Information screen, press _very fast_ the buttons in the Trigger section: Menu Menu Force Menu, then Utility>System>System Info. This will show the complete version numbers for the entire software suite in the scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on September 15, 2016, 07:15:54 am
I assume this update doesn't undo any "liberated" features either?

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 15, 2016, 07:18:28 am
I assume this update doesn't undo any "liberated" features either?

McBryce.

Correct.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Dwaine on September 15, 2016, 07:26:50 am
I assume this update doesn't undo any "liberated" features either?

McBryce.

They are still good.  No issue.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on September 15, 2016, 08:00:40 am
Good stuff, will update tonight :)

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2016, 08:45:26 am
That's strange... Just upgraded my firmware too, but on mine, the trace moves in time with the vertical position knob and the baseline marker catches up when I stop moving the knob. This behaviour depends somewhat on the timebase setting.

I had another play and yes, it depends on the timebase and (possibly) memory depth.

If you set a combination where the trace isn't very responsive (eg. 10ms timebase, "auto" memory depth) then the baseline marker moves first and the trace catches up later (when you stop twiddling the knob).

At 5ns timebase the trace moves first then the baseline marker catches up later. With one or two channels on it's really fast and it's still quite responsive even with all 4 channels on(!).

I didn't make an exact list but it looks like I was unlucky yesterday - most of the timebase/memory combinations are "trace moves first". I just happened to hit one that wasn't.

So yes, a BIG improvement.  Massive. Looks like the DS1000Z firmware team have returned. :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hansibull on September 15, 2016, 09:39:53 am
.. And I guess this update doesn't break my precious Riglol hack either? :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2016, 09:46:29 am
.. And I guess this update doesn't break my precious Riglol hack either? :)

Of course not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on September 15, 2016, 03:46:51 pm
If there is an improvement in the UI, I didn't notice it.  With 4 channels and Auto sample memory, the display still lags.  Not that it matters...

It will never be the case that the UI will respond as well as turning a potentiometer that directly impacts the deflection circuit.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on September 15, 2016, 05:34:56 pm
Copy the .GEL firmware file to a USB thumbdrive that you know works in your scope.
With the scope already running, insert the USB drive in the front panel socket of the scope.
The scope should identify the new .GEL file by version number and ask if you want to install it. The newly released file is version 00.04.04.01.01.
Tell the scope that you do want to install the new firmware.
Make sure you don't have any power failure during the update and don't remove the USB drive until it finishes.
Once the scope tells you that the update has completed, remove the USB drive and cycle the power.
Let the scope warm up for at least a half hour in the environment where you intend to be using it. (Ambient temperature changes affect the calibration.)
Remove all inputs from all BNC connectors.
Run the Self-Calibration routine found in Utility>Self-Cal>Start
It can take 20 minutes or so for the Self-Cal routine to complete.
After the Self-Calibration is done, cycle the power again.
Now connect to a signal source and go and make some pretty colored squiggly lines!

Note that you cannot roll back to an earlier firmware once a later one is installed. (Actually I haven't tested this with the very latest firmware but I expect it still to be true.)

The partial System Info screen will identify the new firmware as 00.04.04.SP1. To see the complete System Information screen, press _very fast_ the buttons in the Trigger section: Menu Menu Force Menu, then Utility>System>System Info. This will show the complete version numbers for the entire software suite in the scope.

Thanks for comprehensive reply.  It gives me the confidence to do the upgrade and others will no doubt find this in future too.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on September 15, 2016, 05:48:54 pm
Copy the .GEL firmware file to a USB thumbdrive that you know works in your scope.
With the scope already running, insert the USB drive in the front panel socket of the scope.
The scope should identify the new .GEL file by version number and ask if you want to install it. The newly released file is version 00.04.04.01.01.
Tell the scope that you do want to install the new firmware.
Make sure you don't have any power failure during the update and don't remove the USB drive until it finishes.
Once the scope tells you that the update has completed, remove the USB drive and cycle the power.
Let the scope warm up for at least a half hour in the environment where you intend to be using it. (Ambient temperature changes affect the calibration.)
Remove all inputs from all BNC connectors.
Run the Self-Calibration routine found in Utility>Self-Cal>Start
It can take 20 minutes or so for the Self-Cal routine to complete.
After the Self-Calibration is done, cycle the power again.
Now connect to a signal source and go and make some pretty colored squiggly lines!

Note that you cannot roll back to an earlier firmware once a later one is installed. (Actually I haven't tested this with the very latest firmware but I expect it still to be true.)

The partial System Info screen will identify the new firmware as 00.04.04.SP1. To see the complete System Information screen, press _very fast_ the buttons in the Trigger section: Menu Menu Force Menu, then Utility>System>System Info. This will show the complete version numbers for the entire software suite in the scope.

Thanks for comprehensive reply.  It gives me the confidence to do the upgrade and others will no doubt find this in future too.

There are README instructions in the download as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 15, 2016, 06:12:00 pm
I just tried the new fw for the Ds1000Z. First impressions:

1.) They fixed the *IDN? command which they broke in the version before and rendered
 a lot of software useless or had to make workarounds like sending *IDN?;:SYST:ERR? instead.
 I guess that's what they called "Supported the multi-inteface of LXI" in the release notes.
 Honestly, I think this is the only reason they released a new version so quickly. Not because of the RMS bug.

2.) The multi-channel waveform data download bug is still present.
 There's a time difference of 200 nS between the channels:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Chumanista on September 16, 2016, 01:12:13 pm
I just made a video guide to updating the firmware and unlocking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnxOGl27GjE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnxOGl27GjE)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on September 16, 2016, 02:41:59 pm
I just made a video guide to updating the firmware and unlocking:

Very nice!  I am sure it will be a great help to new users.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 16, 2016, 03:14:49 pm
To enter a key via the scope's interface is a pain in the ass.
It's much easier, faster and less prone to error, to connect your scope to your pc via LAN, and use telnet.

Check the IP-address of your scope in the scopes menu.

On your pc, open a console and enter:

telnet 192.168.1.17 5555     (modify the IP-address)

Check connectivity using the command:

*IDN?

The scope will respond with brand, model and serial number.

Now enter:

:SYST:OPT:INST PDUY9N9QTS9PQSWPLAETRD3UJHYA   (replace the key with yours)

That's all.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 16, 2016, 03:43:15 pm
I didn't know you could do it with telnet, I thought you had to install that horrible driver software from the CD.

Edit: I just tried it and it works  :)

Code: [Select]
*IDN?
RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES,DS1104Z,DS1ZA123456XX,00.04.04.SP1


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 16, 2016, 05:34:45 pm
In case you have to send it back for service/repair and you want to remove the installed options:

:SYST:OPT:UNINST

will uninstall the installed options.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 16, 2016, 06:31:21 pm
I didn't know you could do it with telnet, I thought you had to install that horrible driver software from the CD.

Edit: I just tried it and it works  :)

Code: [Select]
*IDN?
RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES,DS1104Z,DS1ZA123456XX,00.04.04.SP1

Not reading my posts?    :clap:
I've posted on the use of telnet to talk to the scope several times (at least nine times in fact). See my posts from July of 2015 for example:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/msg715684/#msg715684 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/msg715684/#msg715684)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/msg715695/#msg715695 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-ds1054z-with-firmware-00-04-02-04-07-hackable/msg715695/#msg715695)

Quote
I thought you had to install that horrible driver software from the CD.

Rigol-bashing, are we?   :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on September 16, 2016, 07:21:27 pm

Not reading my posts?    :clap:
I've posted on the use of telnet to talk to the scope several times (at least nine times in fact). See my posts from July of 2015 for example:


Before my time here...  Nevertheless, it works perfectly although I had hoped for some kind of prompt.  Talking to a blank screen is a little disconcerting.

Given that Telnet works, which means a simple TCP connection will probably also work, there's no reason to get locked in to the provided software.  It might take a little packet sniffing to see how things work.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 17, 2016, 04:21:23 am
http://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/ (http://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on September 17, 2016, 04:54:26 am
http://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/ (http://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/)

I'll have to give that a try next time I have my Linux system running.
Not that I need the feature, really, just a curiosity.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 17, 2016, 07:10:13 am
It might take a little packet sniffing to see how things work.

No need to. Everything is documented (in theory and besides bugs):

http://int.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20151218/MSO1000Z&DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf (http://int.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20151218/MSO1000Z&DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)

cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6717EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6717EN.pdf)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 17, 2016, 09:18:41 am
Related to the vertical positioning response speed that's become the new DS1054Z-hater's whipping-post:

I wonder how smoothly the signal traces can be moved up/down the screen using the SCPI interface.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: urill on September 17, 2016, 03:17:38 pm
Follow up on the panel LED not turning off problem...

I have been using the scope with faulty panel lights because I can't afford to be without my scope for two weeks.

I plug the usb drive with new firmware in the scope right after I switch on the scope.

This time, the scope turn on and the lights are normal. It fixed the problem without upgrading the firmware.

I suspect the scope did some sneaky things (write flash?) without user confirmation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: urill on September 17, 2016, 03:47:30 pm
Follow up on the panel LED not turning off problem...

I have been using the scope with faulty panel lights because I can't afford to be without my scope for two weeks.

I plug the usb drive with new firmware in the scope right after I switch on the scope.

This time, the scope turn on and the lights are normal. It fixed the problem without upgrading the firmware.

I suspect the scope did some sneaky things (write flash?) without user confirmation.

After I recalibrate the scope, the problem came back. It is probably a hardware failure at this point.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on September 17, 2016, 05:05:46 pm
It might take a little packet sniffing to see how things work.

No need to. Everything is documented (in theory and besides bugs):

http://int.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20151218/MSO1000Z&DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf (http://int.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20151218/MSO1000Z&DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)

cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6717EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6717EN.pdf)

Definitely worth downloading and reading.  I doubt that I will ever do anything with it but it's nice to have the information.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on September 19, 2016, 10:12:36 pm

So yes, a BIG improvement.  Massive. Looks like the DS1000Z firmware team have returned. :-+

For general information, I come from a really old firmware (04.02.sp4) and upgrading to 04.04.01.01 has slowed down the vertical movement noticeably when in STOP mode. I tried just before the update with the test signal and in STOP mode it was so very fluid - almost CRO-like, I'd say - a now it's not noticeably different from the RUN mode.

It appears, though, that in RUN mode things got a little better. The waveform appear to shim a little bit, but... oh, well.

Ok, now I'll go see what is new... :-)


Oh, BTW: does it matters to have only one or all four channel when doing an autocalibration?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on September 19, 2016, 11:21:14 pm

Oh, BTW: does it matters to have only one or all four channel when doing an autocalibration?

The directions say to remove the 4 probes, that's all that is required.  The test program will deal with the channels in its own way.  You will see the traces moving up and down.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on September 20, 2016, 06:14:30 pm
Hello,
I cannot check the detailed systeminfo. I cannot tip faster.
Anyone the same problem?
LG Wolfgang
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 20, 2016, 06:58:23 pm
I cannot check the detailed systeminfo. I cannot tip faster.

Works fine for me. Menu, Menu, Force, Menu. That's the only part of the sequence that you press in quick succession. Then, access the System Info screen normally. Maybe you're going too fast and the scope is missing one or more key presses.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on September 20, 2016, 07:03:04 pm
ok, thank you! It's working!  :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 20, 2016, 07:07:07 pm
Great! :phew:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ted572 on September 23, 2016, 11:40:29 am
There is NEW Firmware available now for the MSO/DS1000Z Oscilloscopes
FW Version: 00.04.04.01.01
Released: 2016/09/14
 o  Added support for the multi-inteface of LXI
 o  Fixed bugs with Auto-Measurement functions

http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar (http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar)

Edit:  I see now (thanks to 'alsetalokin4017') that 'IAmBack' reported this firmware release in 'Reply #2878' on September 14, 2016.  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1026216/#msg1026216 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1026216/#msg1026216)   I don't know how I missed seeing this. :palm:   If you go back and read the reply's after his post you will see responses to the fixes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2016, 12:24:37 pm
There is NEW Firmware available now for the MSO/DS1000Z Oscilloscopes
FW Version: 00.04.04.01.01
Released: 2016/09/14
 o  Added support for the multi-inteface of LXI
 o  Fixed bugs with Auto-Measurement functions

http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar (http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar)

Coming thick and fast now!

They've changed the way the vertical movement works so it's now continuous movement while you turn the knob.

With one channel on it's very responsive. Not quite analog, but not bad.

Two channels a little bit worse.

Three channels... a bit worse.

Four channels... a bit laggy and some overshoot. It's OK with a delicate touch, hamfisted youtube bloggers will hate on it.

Overall? It's an improvement. With one or two channels enabled it's definitely better.  :-+

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2016, 12:29:32 pm
Looks like they're reading this forum...  :popcorn:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: f1rmb on September 23, 2016, 12:35:07 pm
There is NEW Firmware available now for the MSO/DS1000Z Oscilloscopes
FW Version: 00.04.04.01.01
Released: 2016/09/14
 o  Added support for the multi-inteface of LXI
 o  Fixed bugs with Auto-Measurement functions

http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar (http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar)

Coming thick and fast now!

They've changed the way the vertical movement works so it's now continuous movement while you turn the knob.

With one channel on it's very fast. Not quite analog, but not bad.

Two channels a little bit worse.

Three channels... a bit worse.

Four channels... a bit laggy and some overshoot. OK with a delicate touch, hamfisted youtube bloggers need not apply.

On the whole, I'll say it's an improvement - with one and two channels enabled it's definitely better.

Even faster than you think  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: StuUK on September 23, 2016, 12:39:35 pm
Just checked the extended system info (menu,menu,force,menu) on my recently purchased 1054Z and I get the following versions:-

Software 00.04.04.00.07
Firmware 0.2.3.11

So a little confused as to what the latest actually is?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2016, 12:42:55 pm
Even faster than you think  ;D

Looks like there's a bug in your rar extractor. I see "2016" in mine.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2016, 12:46:57 pm
Just checked the extended system info (menu,menu,force,menu) on my recently purchased 1054Z and I get the following versions:-

Software 00.04.04.00.07

That's the previous one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: StuUK on September 23, 2016, 12:52:30 pm
Just checked the extended system info (menu,menu,force,menu) on my recently purchased 1054Z and I get the following versions:-

Software 00.04.04.00.07

That's the previous one.

completely misread the figures  :palm: thanks...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 23, 2016, 01:21:15 pm
Looks like they're reading this forum...  :popcorn:

... but are you?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1026216/#msg1026216 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1026216/#msg1026216)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 23, 2016, 01:34:59 pm
Just checked the extended system info (menu,menu,force,menu) on my recently purchased 1054Z and I get the following versions:-

Software 00.04.04.00.07
Firmware 0.2.3.11

So a little confused as to what the latest actually is?

From the Update Release Notes in the "new"  .rar file linked by ted572 above:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2016, 04:45:53 pm
Looks like they're reading this forum...  :popcorn:
... but are you?

Me?  :popcorn:


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 23, 2016, 05:02:40 pm
Is there an updated bug list now?

I have a vague recollection that there is still Pluses spelling and a couple things about offset math trace, but I forget which one now, one of the filters or something about when downloaded via scpi?



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2016, 05:19:42 pm
I have a vague recollection that there is still Pluses spelling and a couple things about offset math trace, but I forget which one now, one of the filters or something about when downloaded via scpi?

It's all a lie. There's no new version (yet!)

I actually downloaded it without looking too hard at the number. When I plugged in the USB stick in it gave me the "That's the same version as before!" message.   :-DD

This version is the one that fixed the RMS bug.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kcbrown on September 23, 2016, 05:27:01 pm
Do any of these fix the lockup bug that some of us are afflicted with?   For reference, there's a thread on the issue here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2016, 05:44:46 pm
Do any of these fix the lockup bug that some of us are afflicted with?   For reference, there's a thread on the issue here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/)

Yes. I believe that was fixed in the previous update.

"- Fixed the bug of system halted for wave persistance in the Zoom mode"

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 23, 2016, 07:34:21 pm
I have a vague recollection that there is still Pluses spelling and a couple things about offset math trace, but I forget which one now, one of the filters or something about when downloaded via scpi?

It's all a lie. There's no new version (yet!)

I actually downloaded it without looking too hard at the number. When I plugged in the USB stick in it gave me the "That's the same version as before!" message.   :-DD

This version is the one that fixed the RMS bug.

Yes, I'm all up to speed with that, including the fact that you're not reading this thread.  :P  :-DD

I have yet to install the latest FW though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 23, 2016, 09:59:43 pm
I have a vague recollection that there is still Pluses spelling and a couple things about offset math trace

Correct on those two being outstanding issues at this point. I installed the latest the first time around and so far, so good.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hansibull on September 23, 2016, 10:32:44 pm
Does anyone know if there's possible to multiply the input signal by a fixed constant, rather than multiplying two channels. I want to measure the voltage drop across a 0.33R resistor, and then calculate the current. In this case I'll need to multiply by a factor of 3. I _could_ use a 0.2R resistor instead and enable the X5 probe setting, but hey, that's cheating ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 23, 2016, 11:01:53 pm
I'm not in front of my scope at the moment, but try the following:

Math, Operator, A+B, set A to the desired channel, set B to fx
Math, Options, fx Operator, A+B, set A to the same channel as above, set B to the same channel as A

A+(A+B) = 3*A
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 23, 2016, 11:04:04 pm
To multiply, say, Ch1 by a fixed amount, use Math, Operator, A*B, set A to Ch1, set B to Ch2. Apply a DC voltage to Ch2 equal to the desired factor.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lujji on September 24, 2016, 09:57:53 am
My firmware is 04.03 SP1 (00.04.03.01.05).
Board version: 0.0.1
Boot version: 0.0.1.2
Firmware version: 0.2.3.11

I read that new versions of firmware don't allow you to downgrade and make the scope less responsive, so I haven't updated for a long time. Is it still true for the latest firmware?
My scope has no freeze bug or any other issues, but I want the pulse counter and faster FFT ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on September 24, 2016, 10:48:45 am
pulse counter? you mean pluse, right? ;)
faster FFT? since when? you have full memory fft instead of screen memory fft, which is not really faster
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lujji on September 24, 2016, 11:12:56 am
Well, I don't really care if it's "pluses", as long as it counts them right ;)
For some reason I thought I've seen "faster FFT" in changelogs somewhere. It's strange that they made full memory FFT, but left all the protocol decoders restricted to on-screen memory. I guess this was done on purpose to make higher end models more attractive.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 24, 2016, 11:35:03 am
Well, I don't really care if it's "pluses", as long as it counts them right ;)
For some reason I thought I've seen "faster FFT" in changelogs somewhere. It's strange that they made full memory FFT, but left all the protocol decoders restricted to on-screen memory. I guess this was done on purpose to make higher end models more attractive.

I assume this is because FFT is applied as a calculation like adding, multiplying, or filtering while the decoders and automatic measurements only work through the display record for whatever reason; maybe they would be too slow otherwise.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2016, 03:20:27 pm
I read that new versions of firmware don't allow you to downgrade and make the scope less responsive, so I haven't updated for a long time. Is it still true for the latest firmware?
My scope has no freeze bug or any other issues, but I want the pulse counter and faster FFT ::)

Not everybody had the freeze bug.

I don't recall ever thinking "What the hell happened to the vertical response???" after an upgrade.

OTOH the vertical response does depend a lot on your knob technique so maybe I'm not seeing it as much as other people.

I made a video of the "new" response in this thread along with a comparison of different knob techniques:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-ds1054z-vertical-response-discussion-thread/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-ds1054z-vertical-response-discussion-thread/)

If you've still got the "old" response it would interesting to compare it. Maybe you could make a similar video with your 'scope and post it in there for posterity.


(yes I said "knob technique")
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: StuUK on September 24, 2016, 03:55:36 pm
Think I'm bang up to date now, so the latest firmware date was 23rd Aug 2016 according to the build date...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 24, 2016, 04:34:18 pm
Think I'm bang up to date now, so the latest firmware date was 23rd Aug 2016 according to the build date...

Yes, you are now current. :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fenichel on September 24, 2016, 05:47:07 pm
@StuUK
  Where did you get the files you used for the update?  The files available at http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) are older.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on September 24, 2016, 05:50:31 pm
@StuUK
  Where did you get the files you used for the update?  The files available at http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) are older.

Aren't you looking for this:

There is NEW Firmware available now for the MSO/DS1000Z Oscilloscopes
FW Version: 00.04.04.01.01
Released: 2016/09/14
 o  Added support for the multi-inteface of LXI
 o  Fixed bugs with Auto-Measurement functions

http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar (http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar)

Edit:  I see now (thanks to 'alsetalokin4017') that 'IAmBack' reported this firmware release in 'Reply #2878' on September 14, 2016.  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1026216/#msg1026216 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1026216/#msg1026216)   I don't know how I missed seeing this. :palm:   If you go back and read the reply's after his post you will see responses to the fixes.

?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: StuUK on September 24, 2016, 08:10:58 pm
@StuUK
  Where did you get the files you used for the update?  The files available at http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) are older.

From here:-  http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Just click on the 1000Z link which at the moment the latest is this one http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar (http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar)




Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tom66 on September 25, 2016, 05:37:13 pm
We've just bought ourselves a new DS1074Z-S Plus for our hackspace.

We've been trying to unlock it using Riglol but having no luck, we always get "Invalid licence". This is with both manually entering in the licence key and using Telnet.

Are the current scopes hackable? We are using the latest firmware, just updated it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 25, 2016, 05:50:58 pm
We've just bought ourselves a new DS1074Z-S Plus for our hackspace.

We've been trying to unlock it using Riglol but having no luck, we always get "Invalid licence". This is with both manually entering in the licence key and using Telnet.

Are the current scopes hackable? We are using the latest firmware, just updated it.

The "S Plus" models aren't hackable with Riglol.

Hacking work is still in progress, go over to this thread and watch for developments:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wall-E on September 25, 2016, 07:59:20 pm
Hello:

I have a DS1074Z with Software 00.04.04.01.01, Board 0.1.1, Boot 0.0.0.11, Firmware 0.2.3.11, CPLD 1.1.  The issue I have is that repeatably pressing the 5th key down (or any other) on the left side of the LCD will NOT provide a Factory Reset for me (Rest FRAM / Factor Default in Chinese).  Of course I'm assuming that this is due to my having Boot version 0.0.0.11.

Does anyone know how I could possibly reset the FRAM (for the Factory default settings)?  This is not a new issue for me, as I have never been able to accomplish a Rest with this or any previous FW/Software versions on this unit.

Thank you very much for any suggestions, Wally
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 26, 2016, 07:19:08 am
Does anyone know how I could possibly reset the FRAM (for the Factory default settings)?  This is not a new issue for me, as I have never been able to accomplish a Rest with this or any previous FW/Software versions on this unit.

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02f4/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02f4/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 26, 2016, 09:19:42 am
Hello:

I have a DS1074Z with Software 00.04.04.01.01, Board 0.1.1, Boot 0.0.0.11, Firmware 0.2.3.11, CPLD 1.1.  The issue I have is that repeatably pressing the 5th key down (or any other) on the left side of the LCD will NOT provide a Factory Reset for me (Rest FRAM / Factor Default in Chinese).  Of course I'm assuming that this is due to my having Boot version 0.0.0.11.

Does anyone know how I could possibly reset the FRAM (for the Factory default settings)?  This is not a new issue for me, as I have never been able to accomplish a Rest with this or any previous FW/Software versions on this unit.

Thank you very much for any suggestions, Wally

Are you quite sure you are pressing the correct button, and pressing it over and over during the boot sequence? The correct button is shown in the attached image below.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 26, 2016, 09:21:16 am
Does anyone know how I could possibly reset the FRAM (for the Factory default settings)?  This is not a new issue for me, as I have never been able to accomplish a Rest with this or any previous FW/Software versions on this unit.

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02f4/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02f4/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf)

Too many buttons!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Wall-E on September 26, 2016, 11:31:18 am
Does anyone know how I could possibly reset the FRAM (for the Factory default settings)?  This is not a new issue for me, as I have never been able to accomplish a Rest with this or any previous FW/Software versions on this unit.
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02f4/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02f4/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf)

Too many buttons!

Yes I'm sure that I used the correct button, and I used several others also, and none of them did anything.  The procedure for the DS2000, 4000, 6000 doesn't work either for this unit.  By the way I purchased my DS1074Z before the DS1054Z was even available from Rigol.  And I should note that I haven't had many of the issues that I have read about here with the DS1054Z.  And I have never run into an issue where I had to do a Factory Reset on my unit to clear it up. :-+   And I don't recall seeing lock-ups on my unit.  Are there any Lock-Ups people are experiencing now with the latest firmware that I could try (I don't know of any)?  Anyway as you can see this hasn't been a problem for me, but even so, I would like to be able to do a Factory Reset. :-//

I'm very sure that the Factory Rest function is built in the Boot Loader, or I should say NOT in my unit's Boot Loader version 0.0.0.11
 
Edit:
Yes I continuously pressed the button in/out for the complete duration of the boot process.  From when I initially turned ON the unit to when it was completely done booting.

There must be several other early users of the DS1074Z with the same Boot version and issue.  Is it that they never had a need to Reset their units that no one else has mentioned this before?  Please - what say those of you?  Hey, I guess that I could have a hardware problem that is unique to this Reset thing(???).  Although otherwise I'm very happy with the o'scope.  Just wondering why my unit has always been different than others in this regard.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2016, 01:45:23 pm
I'm very sure that the Factory Rest function is built in the Boot Loader

Yep, that's the place it would be. If you have a very pre-production bootloader then it might not have that.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 26, 2016, 06:38:25 pm
Does anyone know how I could possibly reset the FRAM (for the Factory default settings)?  This is not a new issue for me, as I have never been able to accomplish a Rest with this or any previous FW/Software versions on this unit.

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02f4/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02f4/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf)

Too many buttons!

Because the manual was originally written for the DS2000, DS4000 and DS6000 series.
Just use the fifth button instead of the sixth and it will reset itself just fine.
At least it works on my DS1054Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 27, 2016, 01:05:17 am
Is this the reset that even resets the language back to Chinese? Or, does this reset do anything more than using the menu Default button? Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 27, 2016, 06:38:15 am
Is this the reset that even resets the language back to Chinese?

Yes.

Or, does this reset do anything more than using the menu Default button?

I haven't checked that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mark on September 27, 2016, 02:48:57 pm
I'm sure I've seen someone else with this issue before, but I can't remember if there is a solution other than a new main board:

Applying the probe compensation square wave to channel 1 and a mask test reveals occasional glitches. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on September 27, 2016, 03:21:32 pm
If I remember correctly it was forum user alsetalokin4017.
Maybe you can mail him a PM, and ask him to write more details here under this thread.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bulba99 on September 27, 2016, 05:48:02 pm
@Mark,

please read this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg655144/#msg655144 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg655144/#msg655144)
and below posts.

In firmware Release Notes I find this information about Pass/Fail test:
Quote
v00.04.03.00.01   2015/05/05
     - Added DS1104Z Plus and DS1074Z Plus

     - Fixed pass/fail test
     - Fixed FFT operation
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 27, 2016, 05:58:27 pm
Yep. In my case, I discovered a glitchy CH4 within a couple weeks after receiving the scope from TEquipment. I got an RMA from them, sent the defective scope back, and a fairly no-hassle return replacement unit arrived fairly quickly.

My glitch was on CH4 only and did not require any signal. It would just strike intermittently. I documented it with several screenshots using the Mask feature.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on September 27, 2016, 09:53:11 pm
In firmware Release Notes I find this information about Pass/Fail test:
Quote
v00.04.03.00.01   2015/05/05
     - Added DS1104Z Plus and DS1074Z Plus

     - Fixed pass/fail test
     - Fixed FFT operation

LOL, let's hope this is not the same solution Volkswagen adopted for their cars' emissions...
:-)

Edit: Fixed lousy grammar.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 28, 2016, 06:40:03 am
LOL, let's hope this is not the same solution Volkswagen adopted for their car's emissions...
:-)

Another good reason for using/demanding opensource software.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: IAmBack on September 29, 2016, 06:26:31 am
I'm sure I've seen someone else with this issue before, but I can't remember if there is a solution other than a new main board:

Applying the probe compensation square wave to channel 1 and a mask test reveals occasional glitches.
I think I've seen this kind of waveform in my scope. There was solution - to switch on/off the x10/x1 slider on the probe for a few times. But possibly in my case there were no random "pluses :)" when signal was in the "low" state. Anyway, it is worth to check the probe.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: IAmBack on September 29, 2016, 06:42:32 am
I've noticed that my scope in FFT mode can reach resolution 5GHz/Div. Well, at least I can set such value. Wow, this means something like 80GHz bandwidth (I can't remember how many divs are on the screen). Best SA on the market :) or another VW-like software :)?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2016, 06:57:45 am
LOL, let's hope this is not the same solution Volkswagen adopted for their car's emissions...
:-)

Another good reason for using/demanding opensource software.

Have you seen the analysis of how the VW cheat works? It's really really well hidden.

It's not:

Code: [Select]
if (detect_EU_test()) {
  apply_cheat();
}

It's obviously designed to get past code reviews, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao)

I don't know how many 'eyes' you'd need on the code to see it if you didn't know it was there.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on September 29, 2016, 08:35:26 am
In VW case, it was deliberate fraud to offset carbon emissions and pass emission testing and yet have a fun car that is easier to sell.

In the case of the Rigol, if anything at all it is a bug. It is the opposite of VW - even the software locks (a route to revenue) are not updated albeit they must be aware by now that their hardware is being upgraded for free. Do higher HW sales compensate for lower unlock sales? Perhaps. But even if it was a marketing decision to give out free features - it a far cry from fraud... Competitive yes - fraud no.

Open sourced software would be nice, but I find it hard to envision that anyone would build software that supports all the types of devices (e.g. the FPGAs and processors) and architectures needed for a real hardware scope. We all want the source code to fix the little bugs that irritate us. But the majority of the software is okay and proprietary to the manufacturers choice of hardware and software infrastructure (FPGA, Processor(s), Display, Analog Interfaces, etc.).

It is hard to do an open source embedded (Squeezebox is one exception that I can recall that worked - but started as a cooperation between the developers and the community - and also severely limited their ability to expand the system)...  But open source without the manufacturer's help always ends belly up like the Open Sourced SamyGO (open sourced Samsung TV Firmware), like the Playstation hacks etc. 

There are myriads of open sourced scopes for Android, PC, even Apple devices (at base audio frequencies). As for hardware open sourced scopes, Red Pitaya and Labnation both tried and ended up being half open sourced, half walled garden, with inadequate software, limited bandwidth and prices which at 2 channel 30MHz get them to within $150-200 of a base Rigol DS1Z. And using software buttons (ugh) so not a real hardware scope...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on September 29, 2016, 08:43:43 am
LOL, let's hope this is not the same solution Volkswagen adopted for their car's emissions...
:-)

Another good reason for using/demanding opensource software.

Have you seen the analysis of how the VW cheat works? It's really really well hidden.

It's not:

Code: [Select]
if (detect_EU_test()) {
  apply_cheat();
}

It's obviously designed to get past code reviews, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao)

I don't know how many 'eyes' you'd need on the code to see it if you didn't know it was there.

It doesn't look like it was hidden at all. ODBC II interface even reported on it.... As per the presentations - sure seems everyone from the OEM Robert Bosch to all the engine design and emissions management engineers at VW knew about it. They had to program different parameters for the different emission tests employed around the world, the different ECU models, etc.

They could have easily claimed it was a bug (the negative engine temp was the one constant that was "wrong") - but I think that in their opinion they were doing what everyone else was doing and possibly even the regulators were in the "know", and therefore instead of acknowledging it was a crisis they dragged it along assuming it would ebb and die - and made it worse. Only when it exploded in the US did they start taking it seriously.

But I don't think they hid it. It is a function of the Bosch ECU embedded software core (not sure what the original purpose was) - and reported by advanced ODBC modes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2016, 09:02:25 am
they must be aware by now that their hardware is being upgraded for free.
Well:
a) It's not exactly a secret on the Internet.
b) Strangely enough it's only the low-end models that can be unlocked. As soon as you go to the MSOs (really the same hardware/firmware) or the ones with unlockable signal generators then suddenly the codes stop working.

Do higher HW sales compensate for lower unlock sales? Perhaps. But even if it was a marketing decision to give out free features - it a far cry from fraud... Competitive yes - fraud no.
Rigol would sell almost zero DS1054Zs if they weren't unlockable.

eg. Companies like GW-Instek make a far nicer oscilloscope for slightly less money. Rigol only wins because you can get double the bandwidth of the GW-Instek plus a whole load of extra features for free.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Quiggers on September 29, 2016, 09:19:25 am
DS1054z upgraded to latest firmware, the unlock codes for memory, recorder, decoder and triggering all worked, I havent bothered with bandwidth as I heard there's an option that the hardware doesn't support.

Thanks to the people who maintain this thread
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2016, 09:33:27 am
I heard there's an option that the hardware doesn't support.

That's the 500uV option. Bandwidth works just fine.

PS: How on earth can somebody go around saying "there's an option that the hardware doesn't support" but not tell you what the option is? Who would do that?  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 29, 2016, 12:52:17 pm
How on earth can somebody even talk about unlocking the features unless you mention the correct code DSER? (which is undocumented, unmentioned in the Riglol updater keygen itself ..... but works anyway to unlock everything except the 500 uV/div option, of course.) Who would do that?   :-// 

 ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2016, 12:55:07 pm
How on earth can somebody even talk about unlocking the features unless you mention the correct code DSER?

What makes that the "correct" code?  :-//

The other codes work just fine. I'm just wondering why somebody would go around saying that bandwidth unlocking doesn't work.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 29, 2016, 01:00:38 pm
How on earth can somebody even talk about unlocking the features unless you mention the correct code DSER?

What makes that the "correct" code?  :-//

The other codes work just fine. I'm just wondering why somebody would go around saying that bandwidth unlocking doesn't work.

It's the correct code to unlock all the _working_ options. I'm wondering why somebody would want to only unlock a few of the working options by entering separate codes one at a time,  rather than all of them by using a single code entered once. And who said the bandwidth option doesn't work? Link please.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on September 29, 2016, 01:04:32 pm
And who said the bandwidth option doesn't work? Link please.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1037407/#msg1037407 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1037407/#msg1037407)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2016, 08:32:34 pm
I'm wondering why somebody would want to only unlock a few of the working options by entering separate codes one at a time

Because "DSER" isn't listed on the Riglol site?

(anybody know who's in charge of that site?)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 29, 2016, 08:48:04 pm
And who said the bandwidth option doesn't work? Link please.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1037407/#msg1037407 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1037407/#msg1037407)
That post does not say that the bandwidth option doesn't work.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 29, 2016, 08:51:05 pm
I'm wondering why somebody would want to only unlock a few of the working options by entering separate codes one at a time

Because "DSER" isn't listed on the Riglol site?

(anybody know who's in charge of that site?)

But it is talked about and listed on _this_ site, many times, since long ago, along with the fact that it isn't documented in the Riglol site or the instructions that come with Riglol. I knew about it even before I got my scope in April 2015.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2016, 09:07:18 pm
But it is talked about and listed on _this_ site, many times, since long ago, along with the fact that it isn't documented in the Riglol site or the instructions that come with Riglol. I knew about it even before I got my scope in April 2015.

Sure... but apparently the new guy who just came in here has never heard of it.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on September 29, 2016, 10:39:13 pm
But it is talked about and listed on _this_ site, many times, since long ago, along with the fact that it isn't documented in the Riglol site or the instructions that come with Riglol. I knew about it even before I got my scope in April 2015.

Sure... but apparently the new guy who just came in here has never heard of it.

Perhaps that´s the reason for alsetalokin´s post (regarding the "DSER" code)??   :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on September 30, 2016, 07:43:29 am
I'm wondering why somebody would want to only unlock a few of the working options by entering separate codes one at a time

Because "DSER" isn't listed on the Riglol site?

(anybody know who's in charge of that site?)

But it is talked about and listed on _this_ site, many times, since long ago, along with the fact that it isn't documented in the Riglol site or the instructions that come with Riglol. I knew about it even before I got my scope in April 2015.

It has been documented in the FAQ section of the first post of this thread since April 2015.

I believe it was first mentioned here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg425700/#msg425700), in April 2014.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Quiggers on September 30, 2016, 12:31:55 pm
I followed the codes on the site, not the thread, it's a bit of a big thread.
So in a round about way , you're trying to help me get more bandwidth and avoid the 500uV no supporting hardware thingy.

So thank you.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on October 01, 2016, 01:57:05 am
Also, are you guys doing the self-cal on the scope as requested, after firmware upgrade? I only ask because I now see a new button on the Self-Cal menu that I haven't seen anyone mention.

It now reads:

  • Start
  • End
  • LFCal
  • Output

Was this there before? I certainly don't remember it.

I tried LFCal, it does something and then says it failed. It looks like it might need a probe attached or something.

I do not want to ride a dead horse, but I am still curious:

Is there any new information about the two new functions in the the expanded Self-Cal menu?
("LFCal" and "Output").

BTW: Are there more undocumented "hidden" functions/infos available aside from:

- The added functions in the Self-Cal menu (see above)?
- The expanded/more detailled list in the System-Info screen?
- The factory reset?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mnementh on October 11, 2016, 02:22:16 am
A quick Heads-Up:

Fry's Monday Promo Code 6068321 is good for $50 off on the 1054Z. Good thru 10/11, and supposedly "they pay the sales tax on most oscilloscopes".

http://www.frys.com/product/8708441 (http://www.frys.com/product/8708441)

I don't know if these codes are global, but you're welcome to try this one.

I was lucky and TEquipment price-matched a similar sale from Arrow a couple months back, that is also a possible avenue to pursue. Big Shout-out to Remy Ortiz at TEquipment, BTW - he sent me a direct link to the sale item AND created an account for me to use in less than 48 hours. World-class service. (Remy, sorry it took me so long to get around to this... life's been a raging bear ;) )

Thanks for all the advice guys... (you know who you are). :D


mnem
I am not my pants. I am not your pants either.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 11, 2016, 02:26:11 am
Nice! I didn't even know Fry's carried Rigol scopes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Excoriator on October 11, 2016, 03:26:55 pm
I've just got my DS1054Z. Very pleased with it, except that I can't get the upgrade hacks to work. I have tried it several times, working from the beginning each time, and double-checking everything, but no dice. It is now shutting down any code recognition for 12 hours so I can't try it very often!.

Have Rigol at last closed the loophole? Quite likely knowing my luck! The SW version is 00.04.04.SP1, Board 0.0.1. Anyone got any useful suggestion?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 11, 2016, 04:15:09 pm
I've just got my DS1054Z. Very pleased with it, except that I can't get the upgrade hacks to work. I have tried it several times, working from the beginning each time, and double-checking everything, but no dice. It is now shutting down any code recognition for 12 hours so I can't try it very often!.

Have Rigol at last closed the loophole? Quite likely knowing my luck! The SW version is 00.04.04.SP1, Board 0.0.1. Anyone got any useful suggestion?

Connect the scope to your LAN.

Open a console and enter the following command:

telnet 192.168.1.6 5555   (change the IP-address with the one that is assigned to your scope)

enter the command:

*IDN?

It will respond with "RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES,DS1054Z,DS1ZA17xxxxxxx,00.04.04.SP1"

Copy the serial number of the scope.

Go to this site: http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)

Paste the serial number in the first field.
In the options field enter: DSER  (nothing else!)
Don't change the private key field.
Click on "Generate".
Copy the generated key.
In the telnet connection enter the command:

:SYST:OPT:INST PDUY9N9QTS9PQSWPLAETRD3UJHYA

(replace the key with your generated key and pay attention to remove the dashes)

That's all.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Excoriator on October 11, 2016, 06:27:22 pm
Thanks, Karel.

I will certainly try it that way when the scope will accept another attempt, but I am not optimistic as it is essentially exactly what I did by hand. It has the advantage of getting around the possibility of copying mistakes, but as I said, I was extremely careful and double checked this on three separate occasions.

I am away from home for the next few days so will probably not be able to try it until next week, but I will let you know if it works.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on October 11, 2016, 06:47:00 pm
I had the same problem last year in that the first 2, separately entered, attempts to use the generated code from the http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/) process failed.  It was only on the third attempt typing in my serial number yet again that it seemed to generate a valid code for my DS1054Z.   I seem to remember that others had problems in that the generated code is not always correct and you need to repeat the whole process a couple of times until eventually you obtain a valid key.

Best of luck

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 12, 2016, 01:56:49 am
Even better: Download the Source Code Archive (link at the bottom of the Riglol page) and run the program locally. You will find versions for Windows .exe, Linux (source to be compiled on your system), generic HTML which will open in your choice of browser, and OSX. (I have not tested the OSX version but the other three work properly.)

A very common mistake when entering the SN and the unlock keys manually using the little virtual keyboard is to mix up the characters "5" and "S", or "B" and "8". It is far easier and more reliable to use the telnet connection over LAN and copy-paste to enter the code as Karel describes above. I have encountered errors when using the abbreviated SCPI commands, so I recommend using the full commands, caps and lower case as shown: :SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall    followed by your 28 character key.

To remove the options and go back to "virgin" DS1054z 50 MHz bw, use the SCPI command :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

As far as I am aware, all DS1054z "DSER" option unlock codes start with the same two initial groups of 7 characters:  RDJ9JBB N3SWWUS xxxxxxx xxxxxxx. Enter your own unique code without hyphens or spaces.

Check to make sure the instrument's "System Info" screen is reporting the same SN as found on the sticker on the back of the scope. If they differ, you should of course use the SN that the scope's info screen is reporting.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 12, 2016, 06:34:15 am
As far as I am aware, all DS1054z "DSER" option unlock codes start with the same two initial groups of 7 characters:  RDJ9JBB N3SWWUS xxxxxxx xxxxxxx.

I can confirm that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Excoriator on October 12, 2016, 09:01:07 am
The first problem is that 'telnet' is not accepted (windows 10)!

So I entered the code manually, double checked, and got "Code avoid for 12 hours" or similar in response. I am as sure as I can be that it is is not 'finger trouble'  I am not sure if this is real time or running time of the scope. It certainly hasn't had 12 hours running time since the last attempt. The first two code groups are indeed "RDJ9JBB-N3SWWUS" as found by others. I have to leave soon, so will try again next week. Thanks for suggestions and help everyone.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Z80 on October 12, 2016, 10:03:41 am
Do you have the S or Plus model?  I could be wrong but I believe the simple code hack doesn't work with those versions of the DS1054Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 12, 2016, 10:21:28 am
The first problem is that 'telnet' is not accepted (windows 10)!

Reboot your computer and select Linux. If the selection isn't there, install it. It's free.

In the unfortunate case you are forced to use windows, install Putty: http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0605/1/-/-/-/-/LAN%20troubleshooting%20with%20PuTTY.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0605/1/-/-/-/-/LAN%20troubleshooting%20with%20PuTTY.pdf)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Excoriator on October 12, 2016, 10:44:23 am
Do you have the S or Plus model?  I could be wrong but I believe the simple code hack doesn't work with those versions of the DS1054Z.

To the best of my knowledge its a standard DS1054Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gmb42 on October 12, 2016, 11:22:40 am
The first problem is that 'telnet' is not accepted (windows 10)!

The telnet client hasn't been installed by default since Windows 7.  For Windows 10, run PowerShell as an administrator and enter:

Code: [Select]
Enable-WindowsOptionalFeature -Online -FeatureName TelnetClient
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on October 12, 2016, 02:26:19 pm
I am not sure if this is real time or running time of the scope. It certainly hasn't had 12 hours running time since the last attempt.

Since the DS1054Z does not have a real time clock, it has to be 12 hours running time.
Hence the last few time you tried you might have been doing everything right, but the scope was simply locked off and could not accept any code.

Leave it on for 12 hours and then try again more carefully.

And, for your sake, add Linux to your computer. It will give you freedom to do what you want. Unlike other operating systems (which i happen to use but alongside with the penguin)...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 12, 2016, 04:22:53 pm
I am not sure if this is real time or running time of the scope. It certainly hasn't had 12 hours running time since the last attempt.

Since the DS1054Z does not have a real time clock, it has to be 12 hours running time.

Correct!

Excoriator, that's why you're immediately receiving the lockout message when you retry. The lock hasn't released yet. You have to power on the scope for at least 12 hours to clear the error.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on October 12, 2016, 05:26:26 pm
And, for your sake, add Linux to your computer. It will give you freedom to do what you want. Unlike other operating systems (which i happen to use but alongside with the penguin)...

Instead of installing whole OS to get telnet client it is easier to just download PuTTY  :-//
And the fact that it isn't installed in windows by default doesn't mean it doesn't exist.. But I would use PuTTY anyways..

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 12, 2016, 05:51:16 pm
The telnet client hasn't been installed by default since Windows 7.  For Windows 10, run PowerShell as an administrator and enter:

Code: [Select]
Enable-WindowsOptionalFeature -Online -FeatureName TelnetClient

I usually use PuTTY when on Windows. Thanks for this tip. Installed and works.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on October 12, 2016, 05:53:13 pm
The telnet client hasn't been installed by default since Windows 7.  For Windows 10, run PowerShell as an administrator and enter:

Code: [Select]
Enable-WindowsOptionalFeature -Online -FeatureName TelnetClient

I usually use PuTTY when on Windows. Thanks for this tip. Installed and works.
That's why I love PuTTY .. simply works!! Take care!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JackM on October 12, 2016, 06:38:01 pm
As far as I am aware, all DS1054z "DSER" option unlock codes start with the same two initial groups of 7 characters:  RDJ9JBB N3SWWUS xxxxxxx xxxxxxx.

I can confirm that.

Just letting you know that this was not true for my DS1054z. When I bought mine it had firmware version 00.04.03.SP2 installed on it, board rev 0.1.1
I updated the firmware to 00.04.04.SP1 first, did a self-cal, then applied the generated key and it accepted it, unlocking all the available features.

I also used the "DSER" option but my unlock code/key certainly does not start with the same two groups of 7 characters; mine is totally different. Just putting that out there for anyone who might think their unlock code in incorrect because it doesn't start with those same initial characters. I don't believe that they all follow this pattern.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 12, 2016, 11:09:45 pm
That's interesting! I know of a double-handful or so that do share those same groups.
Care to share your first two groups of seven?
I'd love to run your serial number through my local copies of the Riglol software and see if I get the same key you got. If you'd like to try it, send me a PM with your SN.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JackM on October 13, 2016, 03:11:43 am
First two 7 character groups: FD74GJQ KLSEP6S
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hansibull on October 13, 2016, 11:00:37 am
Hi!
I just got an MSO1104Z scope, and I'm trying to get the decoder option to work. I've connected 8 data bits to the first eight channels on the logic analyzer, and applied a clock signal on the 9th channel.
However, no matter what I do I can't enable the parallel decoding option, even though it's installed! Why is it greyed out like this?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 13, 2016, 11:06:27 am
Hi!
I just got an MSO1104Z scope, and I'm trying to get the decoder option to work. I've connected 8 data bits to the first eight channels on the logic analyzer, and applied a clock signal on the 9th channel.
However, no matter what I do I can't enable the parallel decoding option, even though it's installed! Why is it greyed out like this?

In my copy of the manual it says you need to select the digital bus for decoding when you're looking at the digital inputs (use the "bus" menu).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hansibull on October 13, 2016, 12:05:40 pm
It turned out to be the time scale; I needed to "zoom" in a bit, and then it would let me encode ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Rutherberg on October 14, 2016, 05:38:53 pm
Hi !

Time to replace my good old Hameg HM203-5, it gaves everything it had !  :-BROKE

The main use was servicing audio appliances, including tube amps, and also noise measurements in power supplies. I assume the Rigol is good enough for these applications.

What bothers me is the CAT I 300 Vrms, CAT II 100 Vrms specs. So, correct me if I'm wrong, for appliances connected to the main via an isolation transformer, it is considered as CAT II, right ?

So measuring high voltage like in tube amps is not recommended.

Now I have a separated probe with the specs attached. It seems to be 600V DC CAT II in X1 position.

If I use the X10 position, is it ok to measure up to 600V DC CAT II ? Is it OK to work like that with the DS1054Z.

I find categories very confusing because informations are contradictory between different sources.

Thanks in advance !
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 14, 2016, 05:57:14 pm
With the 10X attenuator engaged, it'd probably be OK. However, I wouldn't do that. If you're working on high voltages and accidentally have the probe set to 1X, the results could be disastrous.

I'd recommend getting a proper differential probe for high voltage use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 14, 2016, 08:08:52 pm
...Which of course will cost far more than the scope itself did.

Or, if you are on a budget, get a good quality 100x passive probe.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 14, 2016, 08:47:13 pm
...Which of course will cost far more than the scope itself did.

True, although I don't understand why that comparison is so often made. Whether you have a $400 scope or a $140 000 one, the cost of a particular differential probe doesn't change. There's no doubt that such a probe is expensive, and damaging hardware or yourself is costly too. At least you saved a bundle of money buying the $400 scope. ;D

Quote
Or, if you are on a budget, get a good quality 100x passive probe.

Yes, that'd be good for preventing accidental switching.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Rutherberg on October 14, 2016, 09:20:59 pm
Or, if you are on a budget, get a good quality 100x passive probe.

Well, it seems to be the most reasonable choice for me, I didn't thought about fixed 100x probe.

Thanks for the tip !  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Excoriator on October 16, 2016, 08:49:58 pm
I am not sure if this is real time or running time of the scope. It certainly hasn't had 12 hours running time since the last attempt.

Since the DS1054Z does not have a real time clock, it has to be 12 hours running time.
Hence the last few time you tried you might have been doing everything right, but the scope was simply locked off and could not accept any code.

Leave it on for 12 hours and then try again more carefully.

And, for your sake, add Linux to your computer. It will give you freedom to do what you want. Unlike other operating systems (which i happen to use but alongside with the penguin)...

Thanks for that. I thought that might be the case. The trial period decrements according to 'on time' so I thought it likely that it was running time rather than absolute time.

I am home for two days but have several dozen pressing items to attend to before departing again. I will try leaving it on for 12 hours before re-entering the code when I return in about a week from now. Hopefully, things will be more settled then.

Also, I am a little worried that the  trial period is only 30 hours so if I screw up code entry  more than once I will be outside that period. Will this mean it's gone forever?

Re Linux. I have tried using this several times for various reasons and not had a happy experience with it. Even the simplest thing seems to require a load of meaningless commands to get it to work, and it is generally a bit like kicking a dead whale along a beach. It's a pity, a free operating system seems like a splendid idea, but my experience is that it is something that you use only when you have to. (I'm happy to admit this is probably more my fault than that of Linux!)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on October 16, 2016, 09:22:10 pm
Will this mean it's gone forever?
No.

Enter a correct code, and the features it unlocks are re-enabled.  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on October 16, 2016, 09:37:00 pm
PuTTY works well as a Telnet client with the DS1054Z.  I like Linux but I wouldn't boot my other machine just to talk to the scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sandor626 on October 17, 2016, 10:11:24 am
Hi,
I took a few days a new DS1054Z (board version 0.1.1). I have updated the firmware to version 04.04.SP1 ( seen on scope) . on site web version is named 04.04.01.01.  Then I up the scope (with DSER). it works fine
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yngndrw on October 17, 2016, 04:52:34 pm
It's a long thread so forgive me if I've missed it, but am I right in thinking that the very latest DS1054Z's with the latest firmware as bought brand new from Rigol are still hackable ? I can't find any DS1054Z's (or better) for used prices in the UK.

I'm trying to decide between a new Rigol DS1054Z and a used Keysight DSOX2002A which I believe I can get for around the same money, both hacked of course ! The DSOX2002A has the advantage of having the unlockable MSO and signal generator options and having a slightly larger screen, while the DS1054Z has the advantage of being slightly cheaper, new and having four channels. Also the DSOX2002A can be upgraded to a higher bandwidth (200MHz vs 100MHz) and has double the sample rate and about double the waveform update rate, but has 1/24th of the sample memory. (1Mpt vs 24Mpt)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 17, 2016, 05:44:08 pm
It's a long thread so forgive me if I've missed it, but am I right in thinking that the very latest DS1054Z's with the latest firmware as bought brand new from Rigol are still hackable ?

Yes.

I'm trying to decide between a new Rigol DS1054Z and a used Keysight DSOX2002A which I believe I can get for around the same money, both hacked of course ! The DSOX2002A has the advantage of having the unlockable MSO and signal generator options and having a slightly larger screen, while the DS1054Z has the advantage of being slightly cheaper, new and having four channels. Also the DSOX2002A can be upgraded to a higher bandwidth (200MHz vs 100MHz) and has double the sample rate and about double the waveform update rate, but has 1/24th of the sample memory. (1Mpt vs 24Mpt)

Are you sure the Keysight is hacked to enable all features?

It's a tough decision. The Keysight specs are good, the signal generator is a plus, but ... 1Mpt of memory is a bummer. So is only 2 channels. If you need 200Mhz but you only have 100MHz it's not the end of the world. You can do a bit of signal reconstruction in your head.  If you need 3 or 4 channels but you only have 2 then you've got a problem.

I think the number of channels should be the deciding factor. What do you normally use an oscilloscope for?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yngndrw on October 17, 2016, 08:09:00 pm
Yes.
Thanks, that's great to hear - I'm not sure I'd have wanted a Rigol if I wasn't able to keep the firmware up to date with the hacks enabled but this makes it a viable option.

Are you sure the Keysight is hacked to enable all features?
It's a tough decision. The Keysight specs are good, the signal generator is a plus, but ... 1Mpt of memory is a bummer. So is only 2 channels. If you need 200Mhz but you only have 100MHz it's not the end of the world. You can do a bit of signal reconstruction in your head.  If you need 3 or 4 channels but you only have 2 then you've got a problem.

I think the number of channels should be the deciding factor. What do you normally use an oscilloscope for?
The Keysight isn't hacked but I'd do that myself to enable all the options, along with making my own Ethernet adapter from the published schematics.

My usage is mainly for stepper motor / brushless motor driver design, along with switching power supply stuff and "general hobby usage" - For the motor stuff I think I could live with just 2 channels if I needed to (You only care about current for stepper motors, although brushless motors could do with three channels) but 4 would be really handy. (Being able to see quadrature encoder inputs etc) To be honest, I don't think I'd care about the lack of bandwidth for my usage.

As for the MSO / signal generator part, I guess I could ask to see if I could get a DS1074Z / DS1074Z-S for DS1054Z money which would give me some more flexibility. On paper the Rigol signal generator looks better than the Keysight one and Rigol's MSO option has more channels although their use does disable some of the analog channels. Then again, I have a Saleae Logic 8 and basic signal generators are cheap so I'm not dead set on having these features - Decoding on the analogue channels is probably more useful and although the protocol support is more limited on the Rigol, the extra channels will likely make up for this. I have just noticed that you can trigger from the logic analyser input on the Rigol which sounds very useful.

Well that was easier to come to a conclusion than I thought it would be, although I'll probably re-watch the DS1054Z review to be sure.

Thanks !
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 17, 2016, 08:24:28 pm
As for the MSO / signal generator part, I guess I could ask to see if I could get a DS1074Z / DS1074Z-S for DS1054Z money

I'm not sure you meant DS1074Z. That's a totally pointless purchase - get a DS1054Z and hack it.

if you meant MSO1074Z / DS1074Z-S then be aware that they're a lot harder to hack than a plain DS1054Z. You need to open it up and go in with a JTAG programmer. Even then it's not 100% clear how to do perfectly it every time.

The 'MSO' also option needs an external box of electronics to work. (does the Keysight?)

For the motor stuff I think I could live with just 2 channels if I needed to (You only care about current for stepper motors, although brushless motors could do with three channels) but 4 would be really handy. (Being able to see quadrature encoder inputs etc)
The MSO option of the Keysight could show the encoders but 4 'real' channels is easier to use.

I'm not so much worried about the bandwidth

If you don't care about the bandwidth then go for the DS1054Z unless you can get the Keysight really cheap. Four channels good, two channels bad.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: quetzalcoatl on October 17, 2016, 08:32:05 pm
Thanks for sharing it! I looked at the table and it's close to my results, but not exactly the same.

The're many complications to explain how exactly the data-length work.. I'll try to summarize it shortly

(..)

It actually fluctuates in a deterministic way, but it's tricky on many levels:
- the varying max-data-length follows a certain pattern
- but that pattern shifts randomly after each measurement
- and also the 'full/half/quarter' mode of the device is quite nasty thing, because you can't easily read it (you have to check few things and deduce it), and can't easily configure it (it is selected automatically at BOOT TIME depending on the number of selected channels at BOOT TIME, and seems to be locked until SHUTDOWN -!aargh!-)

However, I've got many aspects of that analyzed already. I'll write a post about it during the weekend and write back here.

Anyways if there are any pages wikis or other threads I missed I'd be grateful for links or contact to mantainers :)

I have to unlearn promising to do things within a timespan of "days". I couldn't find time to sit and write it down for a long while, but I finally managed to describe what I found out at http://quetzalcoatl-pl.blogspot.com/2016/10/getting-faster-transfer-speeds-when.html (http://quetzalcoatl-pl.blogspot.com/2016/10/getting-faster-transfer-speeds-when.html).

Have a look at the summary at the bottom, if that's too much text. I tend to write too much sometimes.

I only checked my current firmware version. I'm probably not going to update any time soon. I will be posting the test utility source code to GitHub, so others will be able to check their results on different versions.

Also, I'm sorry but I really suddenly ran out of time and I don't know if the data obtained with higher payload sizes are not garbage. I don't think so. I think they are fine. But I have not checked it yet. I know that makes the research a little useless, but knowing the facts I found maybe someone will be able to verify that sooner than me.

I'd like to ask again for any wikis or other threads related to such research. I can start a new thread, but if there is some already, I can happily go there. Aside from this material posted now (and future work on it), I also have some interesting findings about the list of the commands provided by the device, but that will be another posting. I found a more "firmware/hardware reversing" thread here on EEVBlog ("sniffing the rigol's internal i2c bus"), but, well, it seems to be much more focused on hardware and actual firmware reversing. My work seems much 'softer'..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Excoriator on October 17, 2016, 08:51:30 pm
Well, I have left the thing for 12 hours and there is some improvement on a downright refusal to accept any code. I get 'invalid code' now!

The serial number is DS1ZA181204679.

For DSFR I get RDJ9JBB N3SWWUS  ELXFFHR 7SPQRUA
For DSER I get RDJ9JBB N3SWWUS VDPEDL4  KTA7RLS.

Both return 'invalid code'

Either I am doing something wrong or Rigol have closed the loophole. In either case, I am about ready to give up!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on October 17, 2016, 08:59:03 pm
Curious. I get this:

Code: [Select]
~/rigol/riglol-20140717/bin/linux$ ./riglol DS1ZA181204679 DSER
RDJ9JBB-N3SWWUS-QBEEZZS-SYZMRHA
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Excoriator on October 17, 2016, 09:15:29 pm
Well!

Thanks Smithnerd!

That worked beautifully. I have an upgraded 'scope at last!

I cannot get the correct code you have (I assume it is DSER) whatever I try, but I guess it doesn't matter much now. it works!

Thanks again!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bicurico on October 17, 2016, 09:24:02 pm
Some clones of the original (and now unavailable) Riglol website have a bug and produce the wrong activation code.

Attached is a DOS version of the Riglol software (all credits go to the authors). It will work in a CMD window even on Windows 10 64 bit, so no need to use Linux.

It will produce the correct code and I am posting it for future reference.

Regards
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Excoriator on October 17, 2016, 09:31:55 pm
That is useful BiCurio. It will hopefully help some others to avoid being 'buggered' the way I was!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 17, 2016, 09:33:06 pm
The online generator produces the same correct code that smithnerd got using the script. :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yngndrw on October 17, 2016, 10:34:57 pm
I'm not sure you meant DS1074Z. That's a totally pointless purchase - get a DS1054Z and hack it.

if you meant MSO1074Z / DS1074Z-S then be aware that they're a lot harder to hack than a plain DS1054Z. You need to open it up and go in with a JTAG programmer. Even then it's not 100% clear how to do perfectly it every time.

The 'MSO' also option needs an external box of electronics to work. (does the Keysight?)
From their site, it looks like the DS1074Z has the MSO connector on the front and is software-upgradable for MSO functionality. The site says "MSO Ready - Can be upgraded to 16 digital channels", although the keygen below doesn't list the option for it ? The DS1054Z doesn't have the connector so I'd have to get the DS1074Z for that. As I say though, I have a Logic 8 so I'd only get that if I could get them to upgrade it for free.

Didn't know they needed external electronics for the MSO part so I'll look into that. I believe the Keysight just needs a cable.

The MSO option of the Keysight could show the encoders but 4 'real' channels is easier to use.

...

If you don't care about the bandwidth then go for the DS1054Z unless you can get the Keysight really cheap. Four channels good, two channels bad.
I think you're right. I think I can get the Keysight for new DS1054Z money but I think the extra channels will be far more valuable.

Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on October 17, 2016, 11:00:38 pm
You are looking at the DS1074Z-S Plus - which has the LA port; not the DS1074Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yngndrw on October 17, 2016, 11:12:47 pm
Ah, I knew there was a separate -S version for the signal generator but didn't know that there was a difference with the plus part. From their site it looks like there's no plus version of the DS1054Z and there's no non-plus version of the DS1074Z and DS1104Z. It also looks like the MSO option is related to the plus version alone and doesn't depend on the -S version:
https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DS1074Z-Plus-Digital-Oscilloscope-p/ds1074z-plus.htm (https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DS1074Z-Plus-Digital-Oscilloscope-p/ds1074z-plus.htm)

Does this mean that only the 50MHz version is hackable in software alone ? I initially thought that it was just the -S version which was more difficult.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on October 17, 2016, 11:18:57 pm
This is the one I thought you were looking at:

https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/ds1074z/ (https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/ds1074z/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yngndrw on October 17, 2016, 11:21:50 pm
Ah, they don't seem to have that listed on the UK site for some reason. I guess they only want to import / hold stock for as few as possible to save on costs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 18, 2016, 06:29:17 am
Curious. I get this:

Code: [Select]
~/rigol/riglol-20140717/bin/linux$ ./riglol DS1ZA181204679 DSER
RDJ9JBB-N3SWWUS-QBEEZZS-SYZMRHA

Here I get the same (correct) result when using http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on October 18, 2016, 08:05:39 am
The serial number is DS1ZA1-----

Hi Excoriator, it's not wise to publish complete S/N of your products for several reasons. For example someone can register/use your S/N for whatever reason. Hacking the scope is not illegal in most country, but there is a chance (tin-foil hat mode) Rigol could refuse warranty claims in the future because now the have proof you tinkered with the scope.

And please for all the people posting unlock codes.... please STOP: it will put this forum in a bad position and, correct me if I'm wrong, it's against forum rules. I guess it's better to use PM for this sort of things.

Sorry for the rant, but I've seen forum closed for the same reason in the past.

Happy hacking  :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on October 18, 2016, 08:40:47 am
Just a tip to the users here trying to compile and use Riglol on their own computer. In my case, the download (a tarball I think), included some left over files from a previous compile (from an apple system I think). So before you run "make", make sure you have done a "make clean" beforehand.

This might be the reason that some peoples riglol binaries are producing dodgy keys?

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sandor626 on October 18, 2016, 03:22:43 pm
The online generator produces the same correct code that smithnerd got using the script. :-//

RDJ9JBB-N3SWWUS-XXXXXXX-XXXXXXX

I agree, the website works fine. We must delete , in  the windows of  number series, any letter present ( also "D" first letter ) .
if you no leave the first letter of default, the product number is different  ( and no works ) .   ;)
Title: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: Ecklar on October 19, 2016, 02:55:12 pm
I've seen numerous website posts including a YouTube explanation suggesting that the Rigol 1054Z is limited by software to be a 50 MHz scope at the factory after testing determines which scopes are somehow deficient at higher bandwidth.  That is why although you can unlock the bandwidth to 100 MHz through a hack, you are not able to purchase the bandwidth upgrade from the company.

The scopes are built with the same hardware but after testing, the lesser performing scopes are simply limited and badged at 50 MHz.  Has there been much testing on the accuracy or efficiency of the unlocked 1054Z at higher bandwidth compared to the actual Rigol scopes that were bought badged to be 100 MHz? 

https://youtu.be/i7QMGKFf9gs    |O
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: Fungus on October 19, 2016, 03:01:23 pm
the Rigol 1054Z is limited by software to be a 50 MHz scope at the factory...
That part is true (it's the reason you can unlock them!)

...after testing determines which scopes are somehow deficient at higher bandwidth.
That part isn't true.

99.9% of the scope works exactly the same at 100MHz and 50MHz.

eg. The ADC (the most important component!) works at 1 GigaSample/Sec in both models.

Similarly the RAM and CPU - exact same speed in both models.

etc.

Has there been much testing on the accuracy or efficiency of the unlocked 1054Z at higher bandwidth compared to the actual Rigol scopes that were bought badged to be 100 MHz? 
Yes, there has been extensive testing here. No differences have been found.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on October 19, 2016, 03:22:43 pm
+1 on the bullshit meter here too. some time ago i could actually buy the bandwidth upgrade, or at least it was listed on the website where i bought the scope. what could really be the limitation? -3dB point? never had analog domain problems with high speed signals..

and i may remember it wrong but wasn't the 1054Z with 100 MHz BW during the trial period as well?
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: David Hess on October 19, 2016, 03:29:41 pm
Has there been much testing on the accuracy or efficiency of the unlocked 1054Z at higher bandwidth compared to the actual Rigol scopes that were bought badged to be 100 MHz? 
Yes, there has been extensive testing here. No differences have been found.

The Rigol 1054Z should not be fast enough for this to be a problem but has anybody posted the before and after results of a transient response test?  I have been watching for this but never found it.
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: borjam on October 19, 2016, 03:30:08 pm
The scopes are built with the same hardware but after testing, the lesser performing scopes are simply limited and badged at 50 MHz.  Has there been much testing on the accuracy or efficiency of the unlocked 1054Z at higher bandwidth compared to the actual Rigol scopes that were bought badged to be 100 MHz? 

That could actually be true (the first time I read about the hacking I wondered wether it was the case actually) but there are two factors at play here:

First, it doesn't seem to be so hard for them to manufacture a large quantity of 100 MHz scopes. This is not like semiconductor manufacturing where your yield for different performance levels will probably vary.

Second, the testing would add cost and, given factor one, probably isn't really needed :)

Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: Fungus on October 19, 2016, 03:37:02 pm
First, it doesn't seem to be so hard for them to manufacture a large quantity of 100 MHz scopes. This is not like semiconductor manufacturing where your yield for different performance levels will probably vary.

Second, the testing would add cost and, given factor one, probably isn't really needed :)

Third, once you get past the input amplifier the entire scope runs exactly the same no matter what the front sticker says. Same 1GS/s sample rate, same CPU speed, same memory bandwidth, etc.
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: Fungus on October 19, 2016, 03:45:32 pm
has anybody posted the before and after results of a transient response test?  I have been watching for this but never found it.

Yes, many times. It's buried somewhere in the massive DS1054Z threads. Measured bandwidth on these scopes is about 140MHz.

The theory of 50/70/100MHz operation is also well understood. Dave did a "reverse engineering" video and found some switchable capacitors across the inputs that act as 50/70Mhz filters when enabled. It really is as simple as that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJVrTV_BeGg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJVrTV_BeGg)

(about 32 minutes in...)
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: dcac on October 19, 2016, 03:52:02 pm
I've seen numerous website posts...

Could you please show/quote some of those numerous posts?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Augustus on October 19, 2016, 04:09:41 pm
Why was the thread title changed in such a click baity manner? Congrats to whoever did it, I fell for it  :-+
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: David Hess on October 19, 2016, 04:12:25 pm
has anybody posted the before and after results of a transient response test?  I have been watching for this but never found it.

Yes, many times. It's buried somewhere in the massive DS1054Z threads. Measured bandwidth on these scopes is about 140MHz.

Like I said, I specifically watched for this and never saw any results posted.  I just did another search and found nothing except for a depressing number of posts by me on the subject.

If someone wants to do this, they need a fast reference level pulse generator like a Tektronix PG506 or maybe something made from some AC logic or similar if it can be checked against a known good oscilloscope.  In the case of the Rigol oscilloscopes, measurements should be made both in single shot mode and normal mode with long persistence and without averaging because we do not know how repetitive signals are processed to produce the graded index display.

Quote
The theory of 50/100MHz operation is also well understood. Dave did a "reverse engineering" video and found a switchable capacitor across the input that acts as a 50Mhz filter when enabled. It really is as simple as that.

I am well aware since I am the one who did the calculations showing the math behind the bandwidth limits.

I wish the theory behind the AC/DC coupling was just as well understood.  Dave's reverse engineered schematic seems to be incomplete there.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on October 19, 2016, 04:16:58 pm
Performance has been verified by many users. The four I have tested have all been good to 130 MHz + on all 4 channels.

So by all means UNLOCK your DS1054Z !
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: Fungus on October 19, 2016, 04:46:57 pm
has anybody posted the before and after results of a transient response test?  I have been watching for this but never found it.

Yes, many times. It's buried somewhere in the massive DS1054Z threads. Measured bandwidth on these scopes is about 140MHz.

Like I said, I specifically watched for this and never saw any results posted.  I just did another search and found nothing except for a depressing number of posts by me on the subject.

Did you use the forum search? It's :-DD bad.

I typed "eevblog ds1054z pulse rise time" into google and got this as the first hit.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/pulse-generator-rise-time-and-rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/pulse-generator-rise-time-and-rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/)

An entire thread on the subject! Complete with videos of tests!!
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: David Hess on October 19, 2016, 04:52:13 pm
A time domain test would be redundant to the frequency sweeps that have been made.  These scopes have no fancy DSP, so the time domain response can be inferred from the frequency domain response, which is known to be a smooth rolloff.

This is completely false.

Scalar frequency measurements do not reveal group delay.  A transient response test is more than just an independent way to confirm bandwidth.  And we do not know what kind of processing these oscilloscopes do which could affect the transient response which is why I suggested making both single shot and normal measurements.

Did you use the forum search? It's :-DD bad.

Are you kidding?  I went straight to Google.  The forum search is less than useless.

I will go through the discussion thread you linked ... again ... but I don't remember finding anything definitive.

Update: That did not take long.  We do not really know the conditions of the test but the upgraded MSO1074Z looks pretty horrible with a roughly 7ns something which is not quite dribble up after the leading edge.  It is a little difficult to tell without seeing the pulse on the 2467B at a slower timescale.  If I saw that on one of my 100 MHz oscilloscopes, I would start looking for what is broken.  I still want to see what it looks like without the display processing going on.
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: Fungus on October 19, 2016, 05:02:07 pm
I will go through the discussion thread you linked ... again ... but I don't remember finding anything definitive.

What about the video on the first page?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS3sCJd_GPk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS3sCJd_GPk)

Start at 16:26
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: paranoidsat on October 19, 2016, 05:45:19 pm
Hi all

Got my new Rigol 1054z. Ha**ed, updated firmware and recalibrated it. Worked like a charm. Played the whole day with it  :scared:

Thank you guys for all your great work!! Keep on going!!

PS:
After recalibration the 500µV also worked fine. Without recal the 500µV where horizontal moved.
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: David Hess on October 20, 2016, 03:58:04 am
What about the video on the first page?

Unfortunately the test conditions in the video are not ideal.  He has to use an external feedthrough termination on the Rigol but does *not* check it against the internal terminations on the other oscilloscopes so we do not know what effect it had.

The hacked Rigol's settling time seems reasonable but that 5ns ramp after the edge indicates a problem and doubly so since the ETS DSOs he used indicate that the pulse has real overshoot.  That is exactly the sort of thing I would expect on a DSO hacked for extra bandwidth because the transient response would look better at lower bandwidth.  Most users would never notice it however, it does *not* meet the specifications of a good 100 MHz oscilloscope.

It looks like his Tektronix 2467B is out of calibration; maybe the calibration data stored in non-volitile memory was lost.

I have an analog sampling oscilloscope for verifying the performance of my fast reference level pulse generator so that it can be used for oscilloscope calibrations.

It is fascinating how the displayed waveform changes his Agilent real time oscilloscopes when they operate in equivalent time sampling mode.
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: Fungus on October 20, 2016, 06:06:03 am
What about the video on the first page?

Unfortunately the test conditions in the video are not ideal.  He has to use an external feedthrough termination on the Rigol but does *not* check it against the internal terminations on the other oscilloscopes so we do not know what effect it had.

The hacked Rigol's settling time seems reasonable but that 5ns ramp after the edge indicates a problem and doubly so since the ETS DSOs he used indicate that the pulse has real overshoot.  That is exactly the sort of thing I would expect on a DSO hacked for extra bandwidth because the transient response would look better at lower bandwidth.  Most users would never notice it however, it does *not* meet the specifications of a good 100 MHz oscilloscope.

That may be true but your question was this:

"has anybody posted the before and after results of a transient response test?"

We know how the 'scope works internally so we know there's no physical difference between a DS1054Z and a DS1104Z.

The video shows a rise time on a hacked DS1054Z that indicates 150MHz bandwidth.

What more do you want?  It's a $400 'scope... :-//


(PS: there *are* other screenshots buried in the threads somewhere. It's a pity that the the resident Rigol-haters have made the threads ten times longer than they need to be).

Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: David Hess on October 20, 2016, 03:17:56 pm
That may be true but your question was this:

"has anybody posted the before and after results of a transient response test?"

Maybe I should have been more specific.  Has anybody posted any rigorous transient response test results?

There have been lots of posts showing fast edges from various sources but most are not fast enough and have questionable or unknown characteristics.  That video is the only test I have seen with any credibility.

Quote
We know how the 'scope works internally so we know there's no physical difference between a DS1054Z and a DS1104Z.

The designs and production may be identical but Rigol could be grading them after production for the ones which will support 100 MHz with good transient response and the ones which will not.  As I recall, the design includes no adjustments so alternatively maybe they do board rework which takes time adding to the cost.

Some modern DSOs apply frequency and phase compensation through DSP.  The ones which can be field upgraded must have good transient response at their maximum upgraded bandwidth however Rigol does not do that so there is no such requirement for them.

While I have not seen it done at 100 MHz and I doubt Rigol did it, they could have relied on the stock passive probe to correct the transient response.  There are some aftermarket probes with high frequency compensation adjustments which could correct it but of course this does nothing when a feedthrough termination is used.  This is more common with higher bandwidth oscilloscopes.

Quote
The video shows a rise time on a hacked DS1054Z that indicates 150MHz bandwidth.

What more do you want?  It's a $400 'scope... :-//

It *is* a great deal but if the results shown in the video are accurate, then the hacked model may not be a 100 (or 150 MHz) oscilloscope in the same sense that that the genuine model is which is what everybody is claiming.  An oscilloscope is a time domain instrument so I want the transient response to be as good as possible; if I saw the result shown in the video and it was accurate, then I would assume that the oscilloscope is broken or in need of calibration.

If I wanted just bandwidth, then I could tweak the high frequency compensation of on oscilloscope and get it at the expense of transient response.  Tektronix actually did this as an option on their old 7704A which came in 200 and 250 MHz versions.

There is a guy on Ebay who takes 150 MHz Tektronix 2445Bs, bypasses the fixed bandwidth limiting filter between the delay line and vertical CRT amplifier, reconfigures them, and sells them as 400 MHz 2465Bs.  Do they actually perform like real 2465Bs?  They do unless the user looks closely and most users lack a 50ps reference level pulse generator which would reveal what is going on and they would not notice when using standard passive probes with their high circuit loading except under very controlled conditions.  These hacked "2465Bs" have lower bandwidth and poorer transient response than real ones and can never be adjusted to meet the 2465B specifications.
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: metrologist on October 20, 2016, 03:47:43 pm
An oscilloscope is a time domain instrument so I want the transient response to be as good as possible; if I saw the result shown in the video and it was accurate, then I would assume that the oscilloscope is broken or in need of calibration.

David, what about the trace makes you assume that? The trace looks very similar on the following Tek 2467B with a little more than 1/3 the rise time. The following Tek and Agilent show overshoot. What should the trace actually look like?
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: rstofer on October 20, 2016, 04:05:00 pm

Maybe I should have been more specific.  Has anybody posted any rigorous transient response test results?


Apparently not, at least in terms you are willing to accept

Quote
We know how the 'scope works internally so we know there's no physical difference between a DS1054Z and a DS1104Z.
Quote

The designs and production may be identical but Rigol could be grading them after production for the ones which will support 100 MHz with good transient response and the ones which will not.  As I recall, the design includes no adjustments so alternatively maybe they do board rework which takes time adding to the cost.


Then how could I call up and get a secret squirrel code to implement the higher bandwidth?  All of the upgrades are just a matter of firmware passcodes.  Under your scenario, we could get an upgrade code but the scope wouldn't actually perform any better than the 50 MHz variant.  This is patently false.  It has been shown that the frequency domain bandwidth is in excess of 150 MHz and for all practical purposes, that is adequate.

Quote
Quote
The video shows a rise time on a hacked DS1054Z that indicates 150MHz bandwidth.

What more do you want?  It's a $400 'scope... :-//

It *is* a great deal but if the results shown in the video are accurate, then the hacked model may not be a 100 (or 150 MHz) oscilloscope in the same sense that that the genuine model is which is what everybody is claiming.  An oscilloscope is a time domain instrument so I want the transient response to be as good as possible; if I saw the result shown in the video and it was accurate, then I would assume that the oscilloscope is broken or in need of calibration.

If I wanted just bandwidth, then I could tweak the high frequency compensation of on oscilloscope and get it at the expense of transient response.  Tektronix actually did this as an option on their old 7704A which came in 200 and 250 MHz versions.

There is a guy on Ebay who takes 150 MHz Tektronix 2445Bs, bypasses the fixed bandwidth limiting filter between the delay line and vertical CRT amplifier, reconfigures them, and sells them as 400 MHz 2465Bs.  Do they actually perform like real 2465Bs?  They do unless the user looks closely and most users lack a 50ps reference level pulse generator which would reveal what is going on and they would not notice when using standard passive probes with their high circuit loading except under very controlled conditions.  These hacked "2465Bs" have lower bandwidth and poorer transient response than real ones and can never be adjusted to meet the 2465B specifications.

I suspect you are going to have to do your own tests although I am not certain of the end game.  It's just a simple 100 MHz scope.  If anybody wants serious bandwidth, this isn't where they'll start.
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: Fungus on October 20, 2016, 04:32:15 pm
Quote
We know how the 'scope works internally so we know there's no physical difference between a DS1054Z and a DS1104Z.

The designs and production may be identical but Rigol could be grading them after production for the ones which will support 100 MHz with good transient response and the ones which will not.  As I recall, the design includes no adjustments so alternatively maybe they do board rework which takes time adding to the cost.

They could be doing that, sure, but it makes no sense at all. The only components that could make a difference are a handful of things like discrete transistors and capacitors. The proportion of them that could work at 50MHz but not 100MHz will be ridiculously small. Much more likely is that if they don't work at 100Mhz then they won't work at 50Mhz either.

The most critical part of the electronics is downstream of those components and in that pert of the scope the different versions must behave identically. No grading/sorting is possible there.

In short: It makes no sense to spend time and money sorting/grading them. The cost savings will probably be less than the extra cost of those transistors and capacitors used to select the bandwidth.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on October 20, 2016, 04:56:49 pm
This post is just to easily follow the subject.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sandor626 on October 20, 2016, 07:32:02 pm

After recalibration the 500µV also worked fine. Without recal the 500µV where horizontal moved.

Hi, your ds1054s  long ago when it was taken ?
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: David Hess on October 21, 2016, 12:56:23 am
An oscilloscope is a time domain instrument so I want the transient response to be as good as possible; if I saw the result shown in the video and it was accurate, then I would assume that the oscilloscope is broken or in need of calibration.

David, what about the trace makes you assume that? The trace looks very similar on the following Tek 2467B with a little more than 1/3 the rise time. The following Tek and Agilent show overshoot. What should the trace actually look like?

The Tektronix 2467B is running at 10 times the sweep speed (500ps/div) so it does not show the same extent of the pulse to determine this.  I also suspect it is also out of calibration because of comparison with the later images; it should be showing at least some of the overshoot displayed in the later tests.  The 2467B is a little unusual in that the corner transient response adjustment is done electronically and if the NVSRAM calibration data is, it is lost also and calibrating it is not an easy task.

All of the later DSO traces show overshoot.  The real time traces show preshoot (and more overshoot) which I think is an artifact caused by the sin(x)/x filtering.  The two equivalent time sampled traces show no preshoot and probably accurately reflect the overshoot.


Maybe I should have been more specific.  Has anybody posted any rigorous transient response test results?

Apparently not, at least in terms you are willing to accept

I explained why the tests in the video are not rigorous but they are the best we have.  If you have a link to some better tests, I will be happy to look them over.  I could do the tests myself in a couple minutes but lack a Rigol oscilloscope.

Quote
Quote
Quote
We know how the 'scope works internally so we know there's no physical difference between a DS1054Z and a DS1104Z.

The designs and production may be identical but Rigol could be grading them after production for the ones which will support 100 MHz with good transient response and the ones which will not.  As I recall, the design includes no adjustments so alternatively maybe they do board rework which takes time adding to the cost.

Then how could I call up and get a secret squirrel code to implement the higher bandwidth?  All of the upgrades are just a matter of firmware passcodes.  Under your scenario, we could get an upgrade code but the scope wouldn't actually perform any better than the 50 MHz variant.  This is patently false.  It has been shown that the frequency domain bandwidth is in excess of 150 MHz and for all practical purposes, that is adequate.

The passcodes adjust what restriction are imposed on the analog bandwidth filters and we even have schematics to show how they are implemented courtesy of Dave.  The test in the video shows higher bandwidth at the expense of transient response.  Are you suggesting that the passcodes should fix the transient response?  That is possible but the video does not show it.

Quote
Quote
Quote
The video shows a rise time on a hacked DS1054Z that indicates 150MHz bandwidth.

What more do you want?  It's a $400 'scope... :-//

It *is* a great deal but if the results shown in the video are accurate, then the hacked model may not be a 100 (or 150 MHz) oscilloscope in the same sense that that the genuine model is which is what everybody is claiming.  An oscilloscope is a time domain instrument so I want the transient response to be as good as possible; if I saw the result shown in the video and it was accurate, then I would assume that the oscilloscope is broken or in need of calibration.

If I wanted just bandwidth, then I could tweak the high frequency compensation of on oscilloscope and get it at the expense of transient response.  Tektronix actually did this as an option on their old 7704A which came in 200 and 250 MHz versions.

There is a guy on Ebay who takes 150 MHz Tektronix 2445Bs, bypasses the fixed bandwidth limiting filter between the delay line and vertical CRT amplifier, reconfigures them, and sells them as 400 MHz 2465Bs.  Do they actually perform like real 2465Bs?  They do unless the user looks closely and most users lack a 50ps reference level pulse generator which would reveal what is going on and they would not notice when using standard passive probes with their high circuit loading except under very controlled conditions.  These hacked "2465Bs" have lower bandwidth and poorer transient response than real ones and can never be adjusted to meet the 2465B specifications.

I suspect you are going to have to do your own tests although I am not certain of the end game.  It's just a simple 100 MHz scope.  If anybody wants serious bandwidth, this isn't where they'll start.

I am not as concerned about the bandwidth as I am about the transient response; the former can always be pushed at the expense of the later and reverse.

You are right about testing and a couple years ago I bought and calibrated a pair of pocket sized 450ps reference level pulse generators for oscilloscope testing in the field.  They were intended for quick and dirty bandwidth and functional testing but with my sampling oscilloscope, I recalibrated them to produce a slightly slower but maximally flat pulse for transient response testing.  In practice they are not significantly faster than my PG506 and the later produces an even better pulse so that is why I usually use.
Title: Re: DO NOT unlock the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope !!!
Post by: metrologist on October 21, 2016, 02:15:38 am
The passcodes adjust what restriction are imposed on the analog bandwidth filters and we even have schematics to show how they are implemented courtesy of Dave.  The test in the video shows higher bandwidth at the expense of transient response.  Are you suggesting that the passcodes should fix the transient response?  That is possible but the video does not show it.

Thanks, David. Are you suggesting that the passcodes break the transient response, so an unhacked scope is preferable in this regard, or that the entire line is broken?

The pulse generator I have handy is not fast enough.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on October 21, 2016, 03:21:32 am
I was just playing around with my scope. What does this mean? Does it say anything about the transient response?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 21, 2016, 06:34:51 pm
Thanks, David. Are you suggesting that the passcodes break the transient response, so an unhacked scope is preferable in this regard, or that the entire line is broken?

The pulse generator I have handy is not fast enough.

What I am saying is that the transient response of the Rigol tested in the video was not good enough to support the higher bandwidth unlocked by the passcode.  At a lower bandwidth, the transient response may have been adequate but we do not know because that test was not done.

I was just playing around with my scope. What does this mean? Does it say anything about the transient response?

That is more like what it should look like but it still is not very good; it looks like a ground lead with alligator clip was used with a x10 probe.  The test setup matters like how the oscilloscope input is connected to the source.  The pulse source needs to be calibrated; normal pulse generators are usually not suitable for this type of test.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on October 21, 2016, 07:03:12 pm
How about LiPo battery (perhaps with a cap in parallel) and a mercury switch, short leads, to 50 ohm pass through?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 22, 2016, 12:57:56 am
How about LiPo battery (perhaps with a cap in parallel) and a mercury switch, short leads, to 50 ohm pass through?

The early highest performance reference level pulse generators with the Tektronix Type 109 (http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/109) being the prime example worked this way using a coaxial mercury switch.  The Type 109 has a specified rise time of less than 250 picoseconds and exceptionally clean settling.

The problems with this method are low repetition rate at 10s to 100s of Hz and low relay operating life at 100s of hours.  Low repetition rates are of course not a problem with digital storage oscilloscopes.  One big advantage of this method is good control of the pulse amplitude; both low and high voltages are not a problem.

Transistor based reference level pulse generators like the PG506 are good to 500 picoseconds (http://www.amplifier.cd/Test_Equipment/Tektronix/Tektronix_500/PG506.htm).  Some fast logic like 74AC can work also.  The problem is verifying performance if you do not already have a way to accurately measure the characteristics of the pulse.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on October 22, 2016, 03:21:31 am
I may be naive, but so far I am rather pleased with my measurement. You said it (presumably the transient response of the scope) was not very good. I understand that we (I) cannot verify the actual signal response, and my test was not highly repeatable (usually would completely fail to capture an edge and I'd get flat or diagonal trace), but I did get several very similar signals ranging from 1.9 to 2.1 ns.

I'm going to keep looking for a more reliable signal. I do not like the avalanche diode as I want a longer pulse width. I do have some microwave stuff around. Maybe I'll find something with an SRD or tunnel diode, and I also read that there is some kind of driver in HDD's. I do want to know how my scope actually performs.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 22, 2016, 06:54:13 am
I may be naive, but so far I am rather pleased with my measurement. You said it (presumably the transient response of the scope) was not very good. I understand that we (I) cannot verify the actual signal response, and my test was not highly repeatable (usually would completely fail to capture an edge and I'd get flat or diagonal trace), but I did get several very similar signals ranging from 1.9 to 2.1 ns.

The test edge needs to be faster, say about 4 times, than the rise and fall time of the oscilloscope to effectively test it.  A PG506 with a transition time of about 500ps is good for testing up to 200 MHz.  To test the 400 MHz 2465B which was shown in the video, a tunnel diode pulser was normally used.

Quote
I'm going to keep looking for a more reliable signal. I do not like the avalanche diode as I want a longer pulse width. I do have some microwave stuff around. Maybe I'll find something with an SRD or tunnel diode, and I also read that there is some kind of driver in HDD's. I do want to know how my scope actually performs.

A charge line can be used with an avalanche pulse generator to extend the pulse width to a usable length.  The problem with avalanche pulsers is that they need to be adjusted to get a clean edge with a minimum of aberrations which becomes a chicken in the egg problem if you do not have access to a fast oscilloscope which is already calibrated.

The easiest solution now is probably the output from some fast CMOS logic but again, the output needs to be verified somehow.

Below are two examples of good transient response on 100 MHz oscilloscopes.  Note that DSOs that have a sharp non-gaussian rolloff have a different transient response and aliasing in a DSO without equivalent time sampling causes problems as well; in the last part of the video, the transient response changes (and improves) when ETS is used.  I think that may explain the preshoot bump shown in the Rigol in the video.  The 2467B in the video has preshoot for a different reason which is unrelated to DSOs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 22, 2016, 07:12:01 am
I was just playing around with my scope. What does this mean?

It means the DS1054Z is a total bargain for $400.  :D

I may be naive, but so far I am rather pleased with my measurement.

Yep. Sub 2ns is pretty good. :-+

What was requested is the difference before/after the unlock. If you get an ethernet cable and telnet (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg597613/#msg597613) into the 'scope (port 5555) you can make it into a 50Mhz 'scope by typing this:

:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

That removes all the unlockable options. To re-enable them you can do:

:SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall RDJxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Where xxxxxxxxxxxxxx is one of the unlock codes generated by Riglol.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on October 22, 2016, 07:32:16 am
I'm going to keep looking for a more reliable signal. I do not like the avalanche diode as I want a longer pulse width.

A very simple, but well tested circuit for sharp edges:
#88: Cheap and simple TDR using an oscilloscope and 74AC14 Schmitt Trigger Inverter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cP6w2odGUc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cP6w2odGUc)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 22, 2016, 07:36:57 pm
I'm going to keep looking for a more reliable signal. I do not like the avalanche diode as I want a longer pulse width.

A very simple, but well tested circuit for sharp edges:

It is well tested for sharp edges and horrible transient response.  If your Rigol produced the results shown in that video with a perfect test signal, would that be acceptable?

W2AEW points out in his video that transient response does not matter for his TDR application because the step will have settled before the reflection returns.  Some small additions to that circuit will fix the transient response.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on October 22, 2016, 09:10:37 pm
Thank you for pointing me to the ugly transient response, I was not aware about it.

I saw that video some years ago, and I was remembering the circuit for what strike me most at that time: a very simple circuit that can generate 500ps edges using only common parts, and without any tricks like avalanche junctions or so. Your question made me watch again both videos (there is another one where w2aew is measuring the rise and falling time of a kit with the same circuit: "#203: Schmitt Trigger Oscillator revisited").

Indeed, that circuit not only that it has horrible ringing and ugly asymmetric transient response, but it also has 500 ps only for the falling edge. The rising edge is about 2 ns, nothing spectacular.  |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 22, 2016, 09:49:14 pm
Indeed, that circuit not only that it has horrible ringing and ugly asymmetric transient response, but it also has 500 ps only for the falling edge. The rising edge is about 2 ns, nothing spectacular.  |O

Only one clean and fast edge, rising or falling, is needed to test transient response (unless the oscilloscope has asymmetrical response which can happen but indicates a major problem) and most reference level pulse generators are only designed to create one clean and fast edge polarity at a time.  The PG506 has separate outputs for positive and negative edges.

The CMOS output can be cleaned up by using either an open drain output (tri-state output for fast logic like LVC) with an external pull-up or pull-down resistor acting as a shunt termination or a fast low capacitance diode or cascode transistor can be used to disconnect a totem-pole CMOS output from the shunt termination.  The later is how the old NBS (National Bureau of Standards) design works which is duplicated by the PG506.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 23, 2016, 07:41:19 am
Curiosity: What's the rise time produced a simple mechanical switch with very short wires?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 23, 2016, 09:05:26 am
Curiosity: What's the rise time produced a simple mechanical switch with very short wires?  :popcorn:

You're mocking me, aren't you? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAct7Ynxty8)

The coaxial mercury relay in the Tektronix Type 109 (http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/109) has a rise time of 250 picoseconds.  It would be fun to test a mercury reed switch mounted coaxially inside of a brass tube or as part of a coplanar waveguide to see what kind of performance could be achieved.

The transition time is not easy to measure because of the low repetition rate and because while a sequential sampling oscilloscope would have the bandwidth, it would also need a delay line (http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/113) to produce a pretrigger.  That leaves using a rare random sampling oscilloscope or a modern expensive high bandwidth DSO.  On the other hand if well constructed, it should work great for testing 500 MHz and slower DSOs.

I know of someone who was working on something like this for high voltage pulse generation and with my random sampling oscilloscope, it took like 30 minutes to accumulate enough points to display the waveform.

Update: The forum software is dumb.  How do you *not* embed a hyperlink?  It is doing it automatically and I just want the link.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on October 23, 2016, 11:55:24 am
Guys ... as contribution back to this community, look what I got there, the free DS1104Z-S vs my friend's DS1054Z that I helped him to procure it while ago. All this time I borrowed that DS1054Z a lot as I helped him in the "upgrade" it too, now he really hates me once he knew I have DS1104Z-S.  :-DD

Tell me what you need, and please, don't ask me to do teardown comparison, as the DS1054Z is brand new and still within warranty.

I can't promise though on the timeline, what I have in mind is to do head to head comparison at the 50Mhz to 100Mhz hack. Or any idea please just ask, I will consider it.

PS : Is it better to make this comparison at separate thread ? or just put them in this giant overcrowded thread ?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yngndrw on October 23, 2016, 12:08:56 pm
Guys ... as contribution back to this community, look what I got there, the free DS1104Z vs my friend's DS1054Z that I helped him to procure it while ago. All this time I borrowed that DS1054Z a lot as I helped him in the "upgrade" it too, now he really hates me once he knew I have DS1104Z.  :-DD

Tell me what you need, and please, don't ask me to do teardown comparison, as the DS1054Z is brand new and still within warranty.

I can't promise though on the timeline, what I have in mind is to do head to head comparison at the 50Mhz to 100Mhz hack. Or any idea please just ask, I will consider it.

PS : Is it better to make this comparison at separate thread ? or just put them in this giant overcrowded thread ?

The DS1104Z looks to have another "source" button on the front, I thought they were meant to be exactly the same apart from the bandwidth ?

Edit: On the UK Rigol site, the DS1054Z also has the extra "source" button so maybe it's a new addition: https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DS1054Z-Digital-Oscilloscope-p/ds1054z.htm (https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DS1054Z-Digital-Oscilloscope-p/ds1054z.htm)

The DS1***Z Plus on the site also has the source button in addition to a "LA" button just above it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on October 23, 2016, 12:35:05 pm
That is a signal source button...
That probably means that DS1xxxZ-Plus is full MSO with digital not enabled, and that new DS1xxx(non plus) is actually DS1xxxZ-S that  has AWG hardware built in but it is not enabled....
That would be my guess.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 23, 2016, 07:43:02 pm
Guys ... as contribution back to this community, look what I got there, the free DS1104Z vs my friend's DS1054Z that I helped him to procure it while ago. All this time I borrowed that DS1054Z a lot as I helped him in the "upgrade" it too, now he really hates me once he knew I have DS1104Z.  :-DD

Technically it's exactly the same device.

(Although you appear to have option for signal generator on yours...)

I can't promise though on the timeline, what I have in mind is to do head to head comparison at the 50Mhz to 100Mhz hack. Or any idea please just ask, I will consider it.

The hack can be applied/removed at will.

The easiest way is to connect to the scope via telnet port 5555. All you need is an Ethernet cable.

You switch between 50/100Mhz with a single command.

// Remove all options
:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

// Install an option
:SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall RDxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Where xxxxxxxxxxxxx is a code generated by Riglol

PS : Is it better to make this comparison at separate thread ? or just put them in this giant overcrowded thread ?
A separate thread might be good.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 23, 2016, 08:54:55 pm
Edit: On the UK Rigol site, the DS1054Z also has the extra "source" button so maybe it's a new addition: https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DS1054Z-Digital-Oscilloscope-p/ds1054z.htm (https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DS1054Z-Digital-Oscilloscope-p/ds1054z.htm)

The page says DS1054Z, but the photo is of a DS1104Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yngndrw on October 24, 2016, 12:19:48 am
The page says DS1054Z, but the photo is of a DS1104Z.
Good spot ! That explains that - They must have just used a stock photo.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on October 24, 2016, 01:58:17 am
The DS1104Z looks to have another "source" button on the front, I thought they were meant to be exactly the same apart from the bandwidth ?

My mistake, its DS1104Z-S , its the one that has AWG.


Watch the two white symbols (sin & square wave buttons) at the lower right of the screen.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/free-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=264389;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on October 24, 2016, 05:39:25 am
I shortened up my leads and went to a much larger cap, 50 ohm input terminated. A little cleaner setup and some exercising the switch seems to have improved repeatability.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 24, 2016, 05:50:24 am
I shortened up my leads and went to a much larger cap, 50 ohm input terminated.

I'd go for lots of small caps in parallel. The idea is to reduce ESR/ESI.

(lots of larger caps in parallel works too)

A little cleaner setup and some exercising the switch seems to have improved repeatability.
:-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 24, 2016, 05:53:35 am
Here's a question: Does anybody know if a genuine DS1104Z can be downgraded to a DS1054Z by doing a ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall"?

I imagine it can, I was just wondering.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on October 24, 2016, 05:59:43 am
Here's a question: Does anybody know if a genuine DS1104Z can be downgraded to a DS1054Z by doing a ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall"?

I imagine it can, I was just wondering.  :popcorn:

Noted ... will be in my test list.  >:D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on October 24, 2016, 03:35:29 pm
I'd go for lots of small caps in parallel. The idea is to reduce ESR/ESI.
(lots of larger caps in parallel works too)

Thanks!

I also found the trigger output routed to CH2 through a short 50? terminated BNC interesting. A trigger event on CH1 produced a relatively fast edge (1.9 ns rt)  on the trigger output, after some delay (which seemed like a lot).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on October 24, 2016, 07:14:06 pm
"Trail" :palm:
i tried too with the trigger output going into terminated coax, a bit slower than yours
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 24, 2016, 07:39:57 pm
I'd go for lots of small caps in parallel. The idea is to reduce ESR/ESI.
Thanks!
Ceramic caps of course... for fastest response.

And cut the legs as short as possible.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: IAmBack on October 24, 2016, 09:18:32 pm
Our hero' firmware download link vanished from the following page:

http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Weird...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on October 24, 2016, 10:32:57 pm
The following link seems to always point to the latest version of DS1000Z firmware:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on October 25, 2016, 05:19:48 am
What is the expected external trigger signal delay? I'm getting 350 ns. I have not seen specs on the ext trigger output, nor signal levels...

I bumped up the memory depth and forced a trigger - external trigger routed to CH1 input through 50 ohm termination (and I forgot to change to 1X).  :-// Maybe someone can verify the trigger output on a nicer scope?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on October 25, 2016, 07:27:15 am
What is the expected external trigger signal delay? I'm getting 350 ns. I have not seen specs on the ext trigger output, nor signal levels...

The delay for the trigger output is high compared to an oscilloscope with an analog trigger simply because triggering happens after the pipelined digitizer and time has to be spent doing digital signal processing to qualify the trigger even if it is a simple edge trigger.  The trigger output also has considerable trigger jitter caused by the granularity of the DSP clock cycle.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yngndrw on October 25, 2016, 07:14:16 pm
The HMCAD1511 ADC used in these scopes has a pipeline delay of 128ns on its own, so 350ns doesn't sound unreasonable:
http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1511.pdf (http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1511.pdf)
(See page 5, the pipeline delay in single channel mode is 128 clock cycles at 1GHz. In quad channel mode it's 32 cycles, but presumably that is at 250MHz and therefore the same time period.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mmprestine on October 27, 2016, 08:44:05 pm
Anyone running the current v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14 firmware?  I updated today from an older 4.03...something and now I get random reboots and lockups.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on October 27, 2016, 09:07:55 pm
Anyone running the current v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14 firmware?  I updated today from an older 4.03...something and now I get random reboots and lockups.

None of these so far, board version 0.1.1. The FW was updated this months with the version 00.04.04.01.01 from 2016/09/14, but didn't used it more then 10-20 hours yet.

How often does the reboot/lockup happen?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yngndrw on October 27, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
I'm running v00.04.04.SP1 which should be the latest (Brand new scope, was updated and dispatched by Telonic on Tuesday) on board version 0.1.4 and haven't seen any lock-ups or reboots - Not that I've been using it for very long.

This version is listed as the latest as of the 24th of Oct, so might want to try this:
http://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Get-the-latest-RIGOL-firmware-p/firmtest.htm (http://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Get-the-latest-RIGOL-firmware-p/firmtest.htm)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: quetzalcoatl on October 27, 2016, 10:07:56 pm
I'm running v00.04.04.SP1 which should be the latest (Brand new scope, was updated and dispatched by Telonic on Tuesday) on board version 0.1.4 and haven't seen any lock-ups or reboots - Not that I've been using it for very long.

This version is listed as the latest as of the 24th of Oct, so might want to try this:
http://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Get-the-latest-RIGOL-firmware-p/firmtest.htm (http://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Get-the-latest-RIGOL-firmware-p/firmtest.htm)

Unfortunately, it's just a list with no download.
Like IAmBack said, links for ds1000z vanished from official download site.
Link from RoGeorge to beyond measure points to fw image from 2016/09/14 ver. v00.04.04.01.01.
IIRC that one had a short name of 04.04.SP1

But maybe your device is really ahead :)
Could you check (quickly press menu-menu-force-menu on trigger button group, and then go to info panel) and then check what's the full version number?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yngndrw on October 27, 2016, 10:25:23 pm
Sorry, didn't realise that was just a short name.

Full version number is: v00.04.04.01.01

Board version: 0.1.4
Boot version: 0.0.1.4
Firmware version: 0.2.3.1.1
CPLD version: 1.1
Build date: Aug 23 2016
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on October 27, 2016, 11:11:04 pm
Anyone running the current v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14 firmware?  I updated today from an older 4.03...something and now I get random reboots and lockups.

I'm running the current firmware version. No lockups. If you haven't already, be sure to run the self-calibration after installing a new firmware version.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on October 28, 2016, 08:03:03 am
I have been running the latest build for over a month with no problems.

S/W Version 00.04.04.01.01
Board Version 0.1.1
Boot  0.0.1.2
F/W Version 0.2.3.11
CPLD 1.1

Build date Aug 23rd 2016

Perhaps a second attempt on Self Calibration may help.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 28, 2016, 11:19:56 am
Anyone running the current v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14 firmware?

Lots of people, including me.

I updated today from an older 4.03...something and now I get random reboots and lockups.

Sounds like something went very wrong in the update. Try doing it again.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on October 28, 2016, 12:00:12 pm
Like IAmBack said, links for ds1000z vanished from official download site.
Link from RoGeorge to beyond measure points to fw image from 2016/09/14 ver. v00.04.04.01.01.
IIRC that one had a short name of 04.04.SP1

Indeed, no DS1000Z firmware here either: http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

I notice that Rigol seem to have changed their tagline (logo in the upper left corner of that page) to "Innovation or nothing". So I guess it's "nothing" for us DS1000Z users for the moment...   :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on October 28, 2016, 02:40:58 pm
The  latest firmware and release notes for the DS1000Z can be found at http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on October 28, 2016, 04:22:18 pm
Is it a reliable source?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on October 28, 2016, 04:35:50 pm
it's the manufacture's site.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on October 28, 2016, 07:07:19 pm
The  latest firmware and release notes for the DS1000Z can be found at http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

Ah, thanks -- that's the page I recalled, but had not bookmarked.
Heck, how many different domains does Rigol operate?! And are the "beyond measure" or for "innovation or nothing?"  ???
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: uvamosk on November 06, 2016, 02:51:05 pm
Hey Guys,
 I just got my Ds1054z today, it was built in August.
It Came as follows
 Software Version: 00.04.03.SP2
 Board Version: 0.1.4

Just did firmware update with no issues.
I tried to replicate the 5us Jitter issues and it didn't really seem to show up or I can't see in good enough detail.

 I did just like Dave and them on the youtube videos was doing and I don't see much of a difference at all. Maybe a faint amount, but better than what Dave had on his videos.

Just a FYI.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 06, 2016, 02:54:15 pm
I tried to replicate the 5us Jitter issues and it didn't really seem to show up

Dave did a follow-up video showing it was fixed about a year ago.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: uvamosk on November 06, 2016, 03:39:31 pm
I tried to replicate the 5us Jitter issues and it didn't really seem to show up

Dave did a follow-up video showing it was fixed about a year ago.

 Yeah I saw his video, but here is the funny thing, I did the test for jitters before I did frimware update and it was better than his after the fix. After the firmware update, it looks worse  :palm: LOL. I went from 04.03 to 04.04
 To bad you can't downgrade. BTW, instead of it being blurry like his was mine is more of just a bunch of ghost jitters, very very faint. Looks like one of those electrostatic spheres. If I go to 24m Depth it goes away completely
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 06, 2016, 04:02:40 pm
Yeah I saw his video, but here is the funny thing, I did the test for jitters before I did frimware update and it was better than his after the fix. After the firmware update, it looks worse  :palm: LOL. I went from 04.03 to 04.04

I think it was fixed in version 04.02
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: uvamosk on November 06, 2016, 04:10:51 pm
Yeah I saw his video, but here is the funny thing, I did the test for jitters before I did frimware update and it was better than his after the fix. After the firmware update, it looks worse  :palm: LOL. I went from 04.03 to 04.04

I think it was fixed in version 04.02

 I was reading through their notes and saw that so even more the mystery. I did the calibration after I did the firm ware update but I don't think that would have cause it to get worse. I would be nice if I could downgrade it and see if it goes away like it was when I took it out of the box. Though it's not a big issue at this time as it's my first scope and for what I'm using it for now I won't even notice it. Though it does suck though, that it worked better out of the box than after the update lol.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: uvamosk on November 06, 2016, 05:52:50 pm
Just for your amusement.
One is with zero
the other was out 25us

 Interesting how this wasn't doing it before I did update and calibration.

 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 06, 2016, 08:12:41 pm
Since Rigol missed the problem for months and then released a bunch of different fixes for the sampling jitter problem and they only improved some but not all instruments, I have always been dubious that it was fixed for all instruments.

Is there any possibility that the jitter is from your signal source?  I guess not if it changed when the firmware changed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on November 06, 2016, 09:01:04 pm
How's this?
Signal source is a MTron MTO-T1-S3 oscillator chip at 1.000000 MHz (CH1) connected by normal 10x probe to channel input.
CH2 is the output from the "trigger out" BNC connector on the rear of the instrument, connected by a 50 ohm BNC patchcord and 50 ohm thru-terminator at the channel input.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 06, 2016, 09:58:19 pm
How's this?
Signal source is a MTron MTO-T1-S3 oscillator chip at 1.000000 MHz (CH1) connected by normal 10x probe to channel input.
CH2 is the output from the "trigger out" BNC connector on the rear of the instrument, connected by a 50 ohm BNC patchcord and 50 ohm thru-terminator at the channel input.

It looks fine but the sampling jitter delay problem manifested at much longer delays, like multiples of 5 microseconds when the PLL clock source was 200 kHz, and the trigger output has delay and jitter by design; it is more like a count output.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pascal_sweden on November 06, 2016, 11:39:02 pm
Does this mean that "Yaigol" is back? :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: uvamosk on November 06, 2016, 11:47:53 pm
Since Rigol missed the problem for months and then released a bunch of different fixes for the sampling jitter problem and they only improved some but not all instruments, I have always been dubious that it was fixed for all instruments.

Is there any possibility that the jitter is from your signal source?  I guess not if it changed when the firmware changed.

 I thought it might be something with source but it goes away when I set it to 0 so I can't see it being source since it only shows up at the 5us intervals. The other thing is once I move the trigger over past 5us it shows up and then wont go away till I zero the trigger again, Even if I get off the 5us intervals. I just cant figure out why out of the box with the updates that fixed jitters already installed it was fine then got worse after the latest firmware.. hmm
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 07, 2016, 12:14:52 am
I tried it and found out two interesting things.. First, I was able to replicate it with my Hameg HM8030-6... And jitter was proportional with delay, and wasn't multiple of 5 or something... Just more delay, more jitter... 

Then I switched to DG1032Z, with low jitter oscillator... And didn't see anything anymore...
So definitely a bit of frequency modulation there....

But, with DG1032Z,  if I put delay to something like 200 milliseconds and watched signal at 5 ns/DIV, there it was again...

And it got me thinking.. If you trigger now, and wait let's say  200 msec it's 2000000 periods of 10MHz.. and 5ns jitter on 200msec is 250ppb ...

And then I did autocal again.. And now it is less than 2-3 ns at 200 msec, so that would be  100-150ppb....



In specification for DS1074Z I couldn't find jitter spec..  DG1032Z is specced at 200ps at 10 MHz..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 07, 2016, 12:15:31 am
Since Rigol missed the problem for months and then released a bunch of different fixes for the sampling jitter problem and they only improved some but not all instruments, I have always been dubious that it was fixed for all instruments.

Is there any possibility that the jitter is from your signal source?  I guess not if it changed when the firmware changed.

I thought it might be something with source but it goes away when I set it to 0 so I can't see it being source since it only shows up at the 5us intervals. The other thing is once I move the trigger over past 5us it shows up and then wont go away till I zero the trigger again, Even if I get off the 5us intervals. I just cant figure out why out of the box with the updates that fixed jitters already installed it was fine then got worse after the latest firmware.. hmm

With the delay set to 0, the trigger follows any jitter whether inside or outside of the oscilloscope so there is nothing to display.

The original problem was that the PLL filter was not implemented correctly and Rigol managed to fix it, or sort of fix it, by updating the firmware to adjust the PLL settings.  Since the PLL reference frequency was 200 kHz, the PLL was producing sidebands at 200 kHz and the jitter was maximum every 5uS, 15uS, 25us, etc. from the trigger point.

Since your oscilloscope is new, it might just be broken.  What about returning it as a warranty claim?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: uvamosk on November 07, 2016, 02:01:24 am
Since Rigol missed the problem for months and then released a bunch of different fixes for the sampling jitter problem and they only improved some but not all instruments, I have always been dubious that it was fixed for all instruments.

Is there any possibility that the jitter is from your signal source?  I guess not if it changed when the firmware changed.

I thought it might be something with source but it goes away when I set it to 0 so I can't see it being source since it only shows up at the 5us intervals. The other thing is once I move the trigger over past 5us it shows up and then wont go away till I zero the trigger again, Even if I get off the 5us intervals. I just cant figure out why out of the box with the updates that fixed jitters already installed it was fine then got worse after the latest firmware.. hmm

With the delay set to 0, the trigger follows any jitter whether inside or outside of the oscilloscope so there is nothing to display.

The original problem was that the PLL filter was not implemented correctly and Rigol managed to fix it, or sort of fix it, by updating the firmware to adjust the PLL settings.  Since the PLL reference frequency was 200 kHz, the PLL was producing sidebands at 200 kHz and the jitter was maximum every 5uS, 15uS, 25us, etc. from the trigger point.

Since your oscilloscope is new, it might just be broken.  What about returning it as a warranty claim?

 Well thats what I am thinking but, I ran the hack on it since it was working just fine before the update. Unless there is a way to uninstall the hack.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on November 07, 2016, 07:58:15 am

Since your oscilloscope is new, it might just be broken.  What about returning it as a warranty claim?

 Well thats what I am thinking but, I ran the hack on it since it was working just fine before the update. Unless there is a way to uninstall the hack.

There is.  As has been detailed many times, you can revert it to a vanilla 50Mhz model by connecting an ethernet cable and telnetting in on port 5555. Then use the SCPI command:

:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

alsetalokin4017 provided a detailed step-by-step description of the process here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg654839/#msg654839).

I will add a link to that post in the FAQ section at the start of this thread.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: uvamosk on November 07, 2016, 12:46:20 pm
Well that did the trick thank you..  :phew:
Also was doing a little playing around its not the 5us stuff like i thought its actually any time i move the horizontal trigger off the screen to the left. I can move horizontal triger left as long as it stays on screen no jitter. Soon as its off the screen I get ahat you see in my pictures. If I go all the way right nothing happens stays nice and clean.
 Im going to see about a replacement. Of course it did show up in a single box with a fist sized hole in it. But was fine till firmware update. So who knows..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 07, 2016, 01:52:42 pm
Well that did the trick thank you..  :phew:
Also was doing a little playing around its not the 5us stuff like i thought its actually any time i move the horizontal trigger off the screen to the left. I can move horizontal triger left as long as it stays on screen no jitter. Soon as its off the screen I get ahat you see in my pictures. If I go all the way right nothing happens stays nice and clean.
 Im going to see about a replacement. Of course it did show up in a single box with a fist sized hole in it. But was fine till firmware update. So who knows..

Before you do, run autocal again, but leave scope on for an hour to warm up nicely... Than try again... If still iffy, try to get replacement...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: uvamosk on November 07, 2016, 03:59:12 pm
Well that did the trick thank you..  :phew:
Also was doing a little playing around its not the 5us stuff like i thought its actually any time i move the horizontal trigger off the screen to the left. I can move horizontal triger left as long as it stays on screen no jitter. Soon as its off the screen I get ahat you see in my pictures. If I go all the way right nothing happens stays nice and clean.
 Im going to see about a replacement. Of course it did show up in a single box with a fist sized hole in it. But was fine till firmware update. So who knows..

Before you do, run autocal again, but leave scope on for an hour to warm up nicely... Than try again... If still iffy, try to get replacement...
Got a hold of Rigol and they are having me send screen shots and directions on how to replicate it. He said he hasn't heard of this happening after a firmware update if it was working correctly at first.
Was pretty helpful person so far customer support has been pretty good.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: uvamosk on November 08, 2016, 08:03:37 pm
Status Update,
 Well after going back and forth with Rigol they decided to take my scope back and try to see what happen when the firmware got updated.
They also pulled their firmware update off their site until they can look more into what caused my scope to develop the jitters after firmware update.

 Didn't expect all that to happen. So far been extremely happy with how fast they dealt with the problem.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on November 08, 2016, 08:09:42 pm
Trigger output delay and jitter on Rigol scopes

After the recent postings about possible jitter problems on the 1000Z series, I couldn´t resist to run some tests of my own, especially since I´ve got access to the three (lower) lines of recent Rigol scopes which are DS1054Z, MSO2072A-S, MSO4014, all "improved" to the highest possible version and with the latest firmware installed. Actually, I´m now able to report some interesting findings and maybe a bug or two...

What did I test?
I fed a 100kHz square wave signal (on MSO2072A-S and MSO4014 from the internal generator of the MSO2072A-S and on the DS1054Z from a Hantek HDG2002B). I verified before that these sources are fairly free of phase jitter by phase comparison with a rubidium oscillator.
I connected the trigger out signal of the scopes to the second or third channel (of the same scope of course) in order to measure trigger out delay and phase jitter. In case of the DS1054Z, I also inserted a delay of 50ms to view the 5000th slope of the 100kHz signal after the trigger.

What did I find?
DS1054Z:
Trigger out delay: 355ns
Trigger out phase jitter: 8ns
5000th slope delay jitter: neglible, some 1/f type drift observable

MSO2072A-S:
Trigger out delay: 219ns
Trigger out phase Jitter: 8ns

MSO4014:
Trigger out delay: 30.5ns
Trigger out phase jitter: approx. 300ps

The trigger out delay is extended by the delay of the BNC cable, so in reality it may be a few nanoseconds less than specified.



What does that mean?
Apparently, the trigger out phase jitter of the two lower models isn´t related to PLL jitter since the 5000th slope is virtually jitter-free. The trigger out phase jitter must have its origin somewhere in the signal processing downstream of the triggering logic / slope discrimination itself. The relatively long delay between the trigger event itself and the signaling at the trigger output also indicates that something´s got to be going on there. Maybe the triggering is done in software. This may also explain the high phase jitter of 8ns on both the DS1000Z and the MSO2000A machines (the same is probably valid for all the models in the corresponding classes).
On the contrary, the MSO4000 series almost for sure has implemented the triggering logic completely in hardware (FPGA). The extremely short delay of the trigger out (about 30ns) and the virtually not present jitter is a clear indication for this.

What peculiarities did I find?
These basically concern the DS1000Z:
- If the scope is operated in "Zoom" mode (press the timebase sec/div button), and the acquisition is stopped (press RUN/STOP button), only the last trace is displayed on the screen, just as if the scope was operated in single shot mode. It´s doing this regardless of the selected display persitance time.
- In Zoom mode, if persitance time other than minimum or infinite is selected, the user interface gets so laggy it´s almost unusable.
- In Zoom mode and display persitance time other than minimum or infinite selected, the attempt to do a screenshot locks up the scope and requires a power cycle to get out of this (at least I didn´t find an alternative or didn´t wait long enough ;) ).

Attached are some screenshots of the tests.
I hope this may be of interest for some of the readers.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on November 08, 2016, 09:07:10 pm
Very interesting. Thank you all.

To be clear, uvamosk is posting a display trace jitter of the primary input signal (with trigger delay), the other posts jitter of the trig output signal? The latter is only relevant if you are using the trigger output of the Rigol to trigger other equipment?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 08, 2016, 09:08:07 pm
Status Update,
 Well after going back and forth with Rigol they decided to take my scope back and try to see what happen when the firmware got updated.
They also pulled their firmware update off their site until they can look more into what caused my scope to develop the jitters after firmware update.

 Didn't expect all that to happen. So far been extremely happy with how fast they dealt with the problem.

That is surprising and good to hear. Thanks for the update. Curious what they'll end up finding.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 08, 2016, 09:10:23 pm
Trigger output delay and jitter on Rigol scopes

I hope this may be of interest for some of the readers.

Interesting stuff, Thomas. Thanks for posting your findings. It's not surprising that the less expensive models do a lot of things in software -- maybe too much, leading to sluggish or no response.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 08, 2016, 09:46:28 pm
What does that mean?
Apparently, the trigger out phase jitter of the two lower models isn´t related to PLL jitter since the 5000th slope is virtually jitter-free. The trigger out phase jitter must have its origin somewhere in the signal processing downstream of the triggering logic / slope discrimination itself. The relatively long delay between the trigger event itself and the signaling at the trigger output also indicates that something´s got to be going on there. Maybe the triggering is done in software. This may also explain the high phase jitter of 8ns on both the DS1000Z and the MSO2000A machines (the same is probably valid for all the models in the corresponding classes).
On the contrary, the MSO4000 series almost for sure has implemented the triggering logic completely in hardware (FPGA). The extremely short delay of the trigger out (about 30ns) and the virtually not present jitter is a clear indication for this.

There is no mystery here although you got it wrong.

The 1000Z and 2000A series implement triggering inside the FPGA after digitizing the signal.  The ADC has 128 nanoseconds of pipeline delay and some other delays by itself (for the 1000Z) then the FPGA has its own pipeline delay as it processes the trigger before is is recognized.  The trigger output jitter comes from the FPGA clock which appears to be 125 or maybe 250 MHz.  FPGA implementation of the trigger makes modern low end DSOs less expensive.

The 4000 trigger output delay and jitter are consistent with an analog trigger but you could test it with a more advanced trigger which will likely be implemented in the FPGA.  An analog trigger would usually be used to support equivalent time sampling; does the 4000 series support equivalent time sampling?  I could not sell from the specifications or user manual.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on November 08, 2016, 10:23:02 pm
David -

thanks for that information. You are probably right with your assumption regarding the pipelined processing of the trigger on the "lower end" oscilloscopes.

Yet, I always had the impression that FPGAs also support asynchronous logic (have to ask a collegue here, I´m not at all into FPGA programming...) and using this, it should be possible to program a digital "comparator" like the ancient TTL ´688. The delay of such a device should just depend on the individual gate delays and not on any pipeline or clocked circuitry. And in my opinion, a system like this will be necessary to get a stable image of the waveform (maybe it´s done like this on the 4000 series -- as far as I know this model doesn´t support equivalent time sampling). The trigger itself cannot rely on a lower frequency than the sampling rate, otherwise the waveform will always show some jitter. But it is well possible that the trigger point is evaluated after the ADC data has been transferred to memory, i.e. at multiples of the sampling time. And this can happen as a pipelined (or partially parallel) processing as you suggested and would exactly result in the trigger out jitter observed on the DS1k and DS2k machines, provided the sampling clock and the FPGA pipeline clock are not synchronized. If they were, one should be able to observe the synch out jitter to be time discrete and not (more or less evenly) spread over the whole interval.

Over the next weekend, I will do another test and check the trigger characteristics with an external scope and not by "auto-measurement" - this will also show the pre-processing times and should also make it clear if the (edge) trigger of the DS4k is implemented as analog (before the ADC) or digital (logic magnitude comparator) circuitry. Im already curious...  :)

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: yngndrw on November 08, 2016, 11:12:07 pm
Yet, I always had the impression that FPGAs also support asynchronous logic (have to ask a collegue here, I´m not at all into FPGA programming...) and using this, it should be possible to program a digital "comparator" like the ancient TTL ´688. The delay of such a device should just depend on the individual gate delays and not on any pipeline or clocked circuitry. And in my opinion, a system like this will be necessary to get a stable image of the waveform (maybe it´s done like this on the 4000 series -- as far as I know this model doesn´t support equivalent time sampling). The trigger itself cannot rely on a lower frequency than the sampling rate, otherwise the waveform will always show some jitter. But it is well possible that the trigger point is evaluated after the ADC data has been transferred to memory, i.e. at multiples of the sampling time. And this can happen as a pipelined (or partially parallel) processing as you suggested and would exactly result in the trigger out jitter observed on the DS1k and DS2k machines, provided the sampling clock and the FPGA pipeline clock are not synchronized. If they were, one should be able to observe the synch out jitter to be time discrete and not (more or less evenly) spread over the whole interval.
Most (All?) FPGAs support multiple clocks, so yes they do support asynchronous logic. The issue with the 1000Z series is that the ADC chip itself has this 128 nanosecond delay before the signal even gets to the FPGA. In order to ease synchronisation of everything, they do the triggering in the digital domain rather than having a separate comparator on the analog side and trying to synchronise the delay with the digitised waveform.

If I were in Rigol's shoes, based on little more than the ADC's datasheet and a whole load of assumptions, I'd implement the following:
1GHz clock into the ADC
ADC's output clock (Which clocks at the same rate as the data, I believe it's 125MHz) into the FPGA along with the data, making the FPGA synchronous with the ADC
Inside the FPGA, constantly write each channel's data to a continuous looping buffer
Inside the FPGA, implement a trigger module on the raw data from the ADC - When a triggering event occurs, continue sampling for half the buffer's length and then switch to a second buffer
At this point the FPGA is back to writing continuously to the second buffer and the first buffer contains a full sample which is centered on the trigger
Have another FPGA module which draws the display from the non-active buffer, essentially double-buffering the display to remove any tearing

If you think about it, each channel can be done totally separately except for the shared trigger lines (Although you could easily have a separate trigger per channel) and the drawing module which is shared across all channels. This makes it scalable to more than 4 channels and suggests how Keysight's multi-ASIC design could work. This of course has the side effect that the sample memory cannot be longer if less channels are used, but memory's cheap these days.

Anyway I'm way off point - My point was that by doing it in the FPGA they have at least the 128ns pipeline delay from the ADC, but I don't see why there's such a long delay after that. Maybe I'll have a go at designing an 8+ channel DSO one day, or maybe I'm missing something really important.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 08, 2016, 11:29:19 pm
Actually trigger event to trigger out connector delay is not a problem if it's well defined and deterministic. You can always just compensate time scale on captured data.. And you would have to for the cables, interconnect and other equipment delays anyway...
Problem is trigger event to trigger out signal jitter... And that jitter is not trigger event jitter, but a jitter that happens between trigger event and trig out connector...
That connector is also used for Pass/fail, it could be as well that it is not toggled from FPGA state machine directly, but triggered by display engine or something that is not synchronous to trigger /capture...
That would explain jitter..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on November 10, 2016, 08:23:35 pm
But because of the jitter, the trigger out happens at any random time within that 8 ns.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 10, 2016, 08:36:59 pm
But because of the jitter, the trigger out happens at any random time within that 8 ns.


Yes but it is trigger out jitter, not trigger sample jitter....  It is a problem when you try to trigger something else,  but trigger on the scope is ok....

It is a defect nevertheless...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on November 10, 2016, 08:45:23 pm
yes, making the external trig out useless unless your timing needs are not that critical.

I can't recall ever using a trig out from a scope anyway. Is this something other's use or useful in a particular application? I'm not seeing it...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 10, 2016, 08:59:06 pm
yes, making the external trig out useless unless your timing needs are not that critical.

I can't recall ever using a trig out from a scope anyway. Is this something other's use or useful in a particular application? I'm not seeing it...

It is useful... you can trigger external logic analyzer on an analog signal for instance...

But many people will use it very rarely.... I'm more in a situation to trigger the scope from a logic analyzer than vice versa for instance...

But  I find it annoying, because I guess it can be done right if they would want to......
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 10, 2016, 10:26:15 pm
Well, they are more responsive to firmware issues than in the past. I don't recall them pulling firmware before and rather quickly. So, although it's a bummer that there's yet another problem, they are taking action.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 10, 2016, 10:37:55 pm
I can't recall ever using a trig out from a scope anyway. Is this something other's use or useful in a particular application? I'm not seeing it...

It's for linking multiple devices together. If you've never done that then you probably never used it.

On the DS1054Z it also outputs 'fail' pulses when you're doing pass/fail testing. You could use it to sound an alarm or something.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 10, 2016, 10:51:10 pm
yes, making the external trig out useless unless your timing needs are not that critical.

And at slower time/div settings, the trigger output jitter will not even be visible.

Quote
I can't recall ever using a trig out from a scope anyway. Is this something other's use or useful in a particular application? I'm not seeing it...

It is useful... you can trigger external logic analyzer on an analog signal for instance...

But many people will use it very rarely.... I'm more in a situation to trigger the scope from a logic analyzer than vice versa for instance...

I have used the trigger output to trigger another oscilloscope effectively adding more channels but of course not on the same display.  Sometimes I have used it to trigger a second oscilloscope using the advanced trigger capabilities of the first oscilloscope.  You might have a 50 ohm input instrument like a frequency counter and the trigger output allows the use of the oscilloscope's 1M signal conditioning to trigger it.  A vertical output may even be more useful for this but they are rare.

A gate output is much more useful compared to a trigger output; it can serve as a trigger output but can also be used to gate another measurement instrument.  So for instance I can connect the B gate output from one of my analog oscilloscopes to my external universal counter and make a 9+ digit measurement on a part of the waveform defined by the B sweep. So the oscilloscope is selecting the portion of the waveform where the measurement is taking place *and* displaying which part that is visually.  Some old analog oscilloscopes include this capability with their built in hardware universal counter; it is incredibly useful if you have a need for this sort of thing.

Some modern DSOs have "hardware" universal counters but I am dubious of their claims when they only return a low number of digits.  That is hardly better than the firmware counters in my DSOs.

Quote
But  I find it annoying, because I guess it can be done right if they would want to......

Fixing it would involve adding a variable delay between the FPGA and output and why bother?  Most users will never notice it and fewer have an application that would require it.

I just wish Rigol had included the jitter in the trigger output specifications.  To do otherwise is misleading.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 10, 2016, 10:52:54 pm
Well, they are more responsive to firmware issues than in the past. I don't recall them pulling firmware before and rather quickly. So, although it's a bummer that there's yet another problem, they are taking action.

I agree, they seem to react much better..That is very good.. We'll see the results though, I guess...

If they manage to make it better, that would be plus to scope and a big plus to them for customer support...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 10, 2016, 10:55:41 pm
I agree, they seem to react much better..That is very good.. We'll see the results though, I guess...

Yeah. I guess I lucked out because my boot version is 0.0.1.3 and my scope has been fine, so far, on the recalled firmware. If I had one version older, I might not be a happy camper.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 10, 2016, 10:59:05 pm
yes, making the external trig out useless unless your timing needs are not that critical.

And at slower time/div settings, the trigger output jitter will not even be visible.

Quote
I can't recall ever using a trig out from a scope anyway. Is this something other's use or useful in a particular application? I'm not seeing it...

It is useful... you can trigger external logic analyzer on an analog signal for instance...

But many people will use it very rarely.... I'm more in a situation to trigger the scope from a logic analyzer than vice versa for instance...

I have used the trigger output to trigger another oscilloscope effectively adding more channels but of course not on the same display.  Sometimes I have used it to trigger a second oscilloscope using the advanced trigger capabilities of the first oscilloscope.  You might have a 50 ohm input instrument like a frequency counter and the trigger output allows the use of the oscilloscope's 1M signal conditioning to trigger it.  A vertical output may even be more useful for this but they are rare.

A gate output is much more useful compared to a trigger output; it can serve as a trigger output but can also be used to gate another measurement instrument.  So for instance I can connect the B gate output from one of my analog oscilloscopes to my external universal counter and make a 9+ digit measurement on a part of the waveform defined by the B sweep. So the oscilloscope is selecting the portion of the waveform where the measurement is taking place *and* displaying which part that is visually.  Some old analog oscilloscopes include this capability with their built in hardware universal counter; it is incredibly useful if you have a need for this sort of thing.

Some modern DSOs have "hardware" universal counters but I am dubious of their claims when they only return a low number of digits.  That is hardly better than the firmware counters in my DSOs.

Quote
But  I find it annoying, because I guess it can be done right if they would want to......

Fixing it would involve adding a variable delay between the FPGA and output and why bother?  Most users will never notice it and fewer have an application that would require it.

I just wish Rigol had included the jitter in the trigger output specifications.  To do otherwise is misleading.

I pretty much agree on all you said... I still think that if they could make it better without much of effort, they should do it... That's all.. And I agree, an honest "sorry, but this is architecture limitation, specs are..."  would be fantastic too, as a sign of professional attitude..
Take care!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 10, 2016, 11:00:45 pm
I agree, they seem to react much better..That is very good.. We'll see the results though, I guess...

Yeah. I guess I lucked out because my boot version is 0.0.1.3 and my scope has been fine, so far, on the recalled firmware. If I had one version older, I might not be a happy camper.

I think problem was with versions lower than 0.0.1.3. ... I have the same and is also running fine...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 10, 2016, 11:15:36 pm
I think problem was with versions lower than 0.0.1.3. ... I have the same and is also running fine...

Yes, the post I saw was boot versions prior to 0.0.1.3 were susceptible. I suppose they could also push out newer boot software with the firmware like they did once before. I dunno. We'll see.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on November 10, 2016, 11:26:29 pm
Okay, here's a (hopefully shorter) follow-up to my previous trigger-characteristics observations:

I changed my setup as follows: Signal source now was a DG4102 with 100kHz square wave selected, 1Vpp amplitude @ 50 ohms impedance. This signal was fed to the CH1 input of the oscilloscope to be tested (high-impedance selected). At this input, a BNC T was installed and from there on, the signal routed further on to CH1 of a second oscilloscope (to do the measurement).  The trigger output of the oscilloscope under test was connected (by an identical BNC cable) to the measurement oscilloscope's CH3 (MSO4000) or CH2 (MSO2000A). All the inputs in use of the measurement oscilloscope were internally terminated at 50 ohms. This setup should eliminate any cable delays and will also show the true trigger out jitter (limited by measurement accuracy).

Since the oscilloscope under test won't trigger on every slope of the 100kHz input signal, and otherwise the waveform looks very ugly, I decided to trigger the measurement oscilloscope on the trigger output of the oscilloscope under test. This will only reverse the reference, the jitter will be observed at the signal input and not the trigger input.

What I found:

Very much similar to my previous tests, the figures are as follows:

DS1000Z -- delay 352ns; jitter 8.2ns
MSO2000A -- delay 213ns; jitter 8.16ns
MSO4000 -- delay 27.1ns; jitter 640ps

The measurements for the DS1000Z and the MSO2000A have been done with the MSO4000 and should be fairly accurate while the measurements for the MSO4000 have been done with the MSO2000A which was sampling at 1GS/sec (both channels in use), hence the jitter figures can be taken as an upper limit since the jitter width is just a little more than half a sample period. I was too lazy to carry my 2465 upstairs to do a more accurate test of the MSO4000 ;)

I guess David Hess is correct with his assumption that the trigger of the DS/MSO4000 must be of the analog type while the smaller models do a digital "after-conversion" trigger. The HMCAD1511 of the DS1000Z has a pipeline delay of 128 sampling clock cycles (128ns) plus some additional delay until the sampling data is transferred (in the ballpark of 10ns). This compares to the ADC08D1000 clone in the DS/MSO2000 with about 18ns delay (1GHz sampling clock) as a latency difference of 120ns. And this is pretty close to the measured difference in trigger delay time between the DS1Z and the DS2 series scopes.

All this basically means that for an accurate daisy-chained trigger-output coupled measurement system, the DS1Z and the DS2k series can be used up to signal frequencies of maybe 10MHz (in order to provide less than 10% phase jitter), for higher speed stuff and when it's necessary to accurately synchronize some other equipment with the trigger out signal, only the DS4k series can be used (I don't know anything about the DS6k models, never seen one in real life).

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on November 11, 2016, 12:31:32 am
I can't recall ever using a trig out from a scope anyway. Is this something other's use or useful in a particular application? I'm not seeing it...

It's for linking multiple devices together. If you've never done that then you probably never used it.

On the DS1054Z it also outputs 'fail' pulses when you're doing pass/fail testing. You could use it to sound an alarm or something.

Thanks, but I understand that. Normally I would not use a scope as a trigger since it is a device that is already being triggered. I'd use whatever triggered the scope to trigger whatever else I wanted triggered. I probably just have not gotten into a situation that would require a signal from the scope. Perhaps something more complicated like with the advanced triggers would apply.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on November 11, 2016, 12:37:01 am
I just wish Rigol had included the jitter in the trigger output specifications.  To do otherwise is misleading.

Do they even publish a trig out spec?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 11, 2016, 03:41:32 am
I just wish Rigol had included the jitter in the trigger output specifications.  To do otherwise is misleading.

Do they even publish a trig out spec?

Not really.  All they say is:

A signal which reflects the current oscilloscope capture rate can be output from
[Trigger Out] connector each time a trigger is generated by the oscilloscope. If this
signal is connected to a waveform display device to measure the frequency, the
measurement result is equal to the current capture rate.


At least to me, that description does not match the concept of "trigger output" but Rigol does things their own way.  There is nothing about delay, jitter, or even signal levels.  Will it drive TTL levels into 50 ohms?  Who knows.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrWolf on November 11, 2016, 01:21:30 pm
OMG then I basically wasted about 400€ on Z...   :palm: Now looking at Pico specs...
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-specifications (https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-specifications)
Horizontal - Sample jitter:
"3 ps RMS typical" for 2208B and "30 ps RMS typical" for even most basic 100€ model!
Is it same "jitter spec" I assume? Edit: not same
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 11, 2016, 01:24:23 pm
OMG then I basically wasted about 400€ on Z...   :palm: Now looking at Pico specs...
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-specifications (https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-specifications)
"3 ps RMS typical" for 2208B and "30 ps RMS typical" for even most basic 100€ model!
Is it same "jitter spec" I assume?

No it's not.. Those are specs for scope timebase... Not trigger..

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrWolf on November 11, 2016, 01:35:03 pm
No it's not.. Those are specs for scope timebase... Not trigger..

Ok, any idea what is the same timebase spec for Z? I'm not Pico salesman I'm just trying to understand what I did buy...
Currently I have Z(ero) trust in it above 25MHz...
Yesterday did read 1-70 pages of this thread - already gearing up to buy 100MHz lowpass filters... (+100EUR).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on November 11, 2016, 02:13:45 pm

[...] Yesterday did read 1-70 pages of this thread [...]

The pages 1 - 115 don´t matter anymore. Problems were solved with the last update.
Major themes of the last 12 pages:
- Should I do the update?
- How to update?
- How to hack the scope?

So, calm down and have fun with your new toy. You will be impressed for sure.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 11, 2016, 02:19:19 pm
No it's not.. Those are specs for scope timebase... Not trigger..

Ok, any idea what is the same timebase spec for Z? I'm not Pico salesman I'm just trying to understand what I did buy...
Currently I have Z(ero) trust in it above 25MHz...
Yesterday did read 1-70 pages of this thread - already gearing up to buy 100MHz lowpass filters... (+100EUR).

What are you talking about...

When you buy 100MHz scope that means BANDWIDTH of 100MHz..  Meaning signals with frequency spectrum of max 100MHz.

That means clean sine-wave of 100MHz or 10MHz signal with 10 harmonics with spectrum up to 100Mhz..

You cannot expect to see clean 50 MHz squarewave on any 100Mhz scope from ANY manufacturer... You need at least 7th harmonic  to see  edges start to resemble square, 9th harmonic even better... So that would mean for 50MHz squarewave you need scope that has 350-500MHz analog bandwith and then Nyquist up twice to 700-1000MS/sec (1GS per channel).

If you use DS1000Z on a single channel, it will have 1GS/sec, so it is more than capable of quality sampling of 100MHz bandwith...
And is as good as any 100MHz bandwith scope in that regard..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrWolf on November 11, 2016, 02:27:33 pm
You cannot expect to see clean 50 MHz squarewave on any 100Mhz scope from ANY manufacturer..

I dont care about square. I do care about phase shifts between more-less pure sine waves on all channels at the same time (at 250MS/s max then).
What is expected jitter?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 11, 2016, 02:50:26 pm
There is no jitter  on screen..

 Jitter is on trigger out bnc connector on the back of the scope...

What you see on the screen is fine...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2016, 02:55:35 pm
What is expected jitter?

On-screen jitter should be zero.

What frequencies will you be looking at? Some of the old curmudgeons around here would probably recommend a minimum sample-rate to frequency ratio, just to be sure the sin(x)/x interpolation works beautifully.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on November 11, 2016, 06:59:33 pm
Oh well, I hope I didn't confuse the newbies too much with my testing of the trigger output characteristics of the Rigol scopes...

Fungus is spot-on, in everyday's use, this trigger out jitter is completely irrelevant. It only comes into play if you want to synchronize some other test equipment on the trigger event of the Oscilloscope (like for example an external logic analyzer).

To understand why there is that trigger out jitter on oscilloscopes with an all-digital trigger, let me try to give a simplified explanation: Let's only focus on the "traditional" edge trigger. In case of the classic analog oscilloscope, the trigger circuitry consists of a comparator which has fed the (amplified/attenuated) input signal to its non-inverting input while the inverting input is connected to an adjustable DC voltage which defines the trigger level. Let's assume the timebase is in "hold" mode, i.e. waiting for the trigger signal. Now whenever the input signal exceeds the preset trigger leve, the comparator's output will change state from logical 0 to logical 1. This will start the time base and initiate the sweep. This was for "positive" trigger edges, in case of negative edge selected, the signal of the comparator is inverted.

Fortunately, in the digital world, the situation is more comfortable and we don't only see the signal "after" the trigger event (which was possible on analog scopes to some degree as well due to analog delay lines before the vertical signal was fed to the deflectrion plates of the oscilloscope's cathode ray tube) but we can rather have the trigger event right in the center of the screen. This is arranged by sampling the input data to memory all the time and only "looking" at the memory contents right at the time the trigger event is recognized by a digital magnitude comparator (the digital resemblance of an analog comparator).

Now the problem is the following: The sampling engine (ADC, buffer addressing and transfer logic) is screaming along, let´s say at 1GHz (1G sample per second) while the remaining logic cannot run at this speed. Let's assume, the FPGA (the component the trigger logic is implemented in) can run at 125MHz (1/8 the sampling frequency). In order to keep up with the speed of the sampling engine, the trigger logic will have to be parallelized, i.e. there are eight magnitude comparators that look at eight samples of the input signal at one time. If the cicuitry identifies a trigger event in one of the samples, it "knows" how to map the recorded samples on the screen since it can identify which one of the eight magnitude comparators provided the relevant information. Yet, the trigger out line will only be switched after all eight "bins" have been analyzed since the FPGA core can only react synchronously to its main 125MHz cycle. And this means that the "real" trigger event has happened somewhere within this interval which happens to be 8ns in case of the figures assumed in this example, which correlates to the jitter of the trigger out measurements found on the DS/MSO1000Z and DS/MSO2000 oscilloscopes.

The jitter of the displayed waveform on the screen will be much less and should be in the ballpark of plus or minus half a sampling cycle, i.e. +-500ps in case of the DS1000Z with one channel active, if no other waveform approximation is being done before processing the trigger.

The sampling clock PLL-loop related jitter that was a problem with the DS1000Z and DS2000 series several years ago (which was a design flaw and has been corrected with a firmware update a long time ago) manifested itself as a waveform jitter on the screen if the viewed portion of the waveform was displayed after a considerable delay time after the trigger event, i.e. after many periods of the internal sampling clock of the oscilloscope had passed. It just looks the same as if the measured signal had some phase jitter, and that's basically the problem in this case, for one cannot be sure if the problem lies in the measured signal or if it's a defective oscilloscope. Only a known accurate low phase-noise source permits to evaluate the accuracy of the oscilloscope's internal clock(s). But once again, this problem had been solved and unless some firmware update should "break" the fix again, was an issue of the past.

I hope this helps to enlighten the situation a little.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on November 11, 2016, 07:22:13 pm
Good explanation. How does the circuit know which of the 8 magnitude comparitors sampled the event if they are all looking at the signal at the same time? Seems they'd have to be sequenced at the sampling rate and not parallel.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2016, 07:33:53 pm
Good explanation. How does the circuit know which of the 8 magnitude comparitors sampled the event if they are all looking at the signal at the same time? Seems they'd have to be sequenced at the sampling rate and not parallel.

Yes, they're sequenced/multiplexed.

Watch this video at 21:00 to see why that doesn't matter on a bandwidth-limited signal with sin(x)/x reconstruction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on November 11, 2016, 07:52:45 pm
I'll have to watch that later, but there has to be a clock that multiplexes them at the sampling rate (1GHz). It seemed from the description that the trigger circuit does not run that fast.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on November 11, 2016, 08:19:54 pm
I may not have been completely clear about the trigger engine: The input data is first sampled into memory (or a fast buffer) at 1GSa/s -- this has to be arranged in rather fast / patially parallel logic. After that, the parallel trigger engine looks at bunches of eight samples and processes them in parallel at 125MHz (in the given example). Since evey single of the eight  trigger magnitude comparators is processing one memory location, the trigger point can be clearly located within the bunches of eight. But since the processing (and trigger output control) takes place at the digital logic speed (125MHz), the jitter of 8ns exists at the trigger output. At least, that's the way I would explain the results of my tests.

I'm aware of the reconstruction options of the sampled signal by sinx/x approximation but I doubt that this can efficiently be done before the trigger stage, I'ld rather say at best a linear approach might be possible to reduce trigger jitter of the displayed waveform if it's done "on-the fly". Yet it's much more likely that there is some post-trigger processing and sinx/x approximation taking place to just shift the trace to be displayed on the screen a few dots left or right to minimize trigger jitter with reference to the pre-determined trigger point. Anyway, this only needs to be done at the waveform display speed and not at the speed the frontend is racing along.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 11, 2016, 09:25:36 pm
I will that add that without additional hardware like a variable delay line, it does not matter if the FPGA knows the exact trigger position or not because it can only create a trigger output signal aligned with its own internal clock signal.  So it does not matter if sin(x)/x reconstruction happens before the trigger qualifier or not; a more accurate determination of the real trigger point will not make the trigger output more precise.

GPS receivers which include a 1 pulse per second output have the same problem.  They use a basic digital clock of about 20 to 40 MHz (*) so while every second they may have calculated the 1 pulse per second timing to within nanoseconds limited by the various errors, the output pulse will be off by 10s of nanoseconds because it is always aligned with the processing clock.  A GPS receiver intended for timing will report the difference between GPS time and output pulse so an external device can take this into account.  Some receivers phase lock their processing clock to GPS time so they can produce the pulse in exactly the correct spot.

It would be interesting to see if the delay to the trigger output depends on the trigger type.  Edge triggers are the simplest to implement but what about the advanced triggers?

On the subject of the jitter caused by Rigol's mistake in the sampling clock PLL, was it significant or not?  Well, let me put it this way.  I ran the same exact test on my delayed sweep analog oscilloscopes at 5us and beyond and they had no visible jitter despite using a completely analog sweep delay which is to be expected; their typical delayed sweep jitter specifications are 1:20k to 1:50k while the Rigol was displaying something like 1:2k to 1:5k or an order of magnitude more jitter.

(*) A higher frequency of operation would just waste power.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 11, 2016, 09:56:48 pm
I just tried and for all other complex trigger types except "timeout"  "trig out" pulse relative to trigger event spread is cca 5ns..
Funny enough, for said "timeout" there is no jitter at all....

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 12, 2016, 12:08:34 am
I just tried and for all other complex trigger types except "timeout"  "trig out" pulse relative to trigger event spread is cca 5ns..
Funny enough, for said "timeout" there is no jitter at all....

I am not sure what "cca" means but was the latency different?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 12, 2016, 12:22:43 am
I just tried and for all other complex trigger types except "timeout"  "trig out" pulse relative to trigger event spread is cca 5ns..
Funny enough, for said "timeout" there is no jitter at all....

I am not sure what "cca" means but was the latency different?

Sorry for that, cca is circa , approximately....  No it was pretty much same, except for that "timeout" trigger..
 Go figure...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on November 12, 2016, 01:24:01 am
I did the same test with my new test setup that uses the second scope for actually measuring the delay/jitter: I found basically similar jitter figures in all trigger modes of the DS1000Z (that I tested) asin edge trigger mode, also in timeout mode. The funny thing is that if the timeout delay gets really close to the edge of the pulse (i.e. the scope gets close to not triggering anymore), the jitter gets lower, albeit at much reduced waveform display frequency. This may actually be related to only the same few first (or last) comparators of the "bin of eight" causing the trigger, hence narrowing down the possible times from trigger event to the generation of the trigger out pulse.

I didn't find similar effects with the other trigger modes (but I might not have tested long enough). Runt trigger resulted in higher jitter (about twice the others) but I guess this was related to amplitude noise in the relative small runt window that I used to trigger on one of the small peaks of a cardiac pulse (and the comparably soft slopes).

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 12, 2016, 12:16:54 pm
I'll have to watch that later, but there has to be a clock that multiplexes them at the sampling rate (1GHz). It seemed from the description that the trigger circuit does not run that fast.

That would be impossible. The ADC places data into a buffer for processing. The trigger logic has to process that buffer mathematically, looking for rising edges (or whatever the trigger condition is). The exact amount of latency/jitter will depend on the hardware but some latency/jitter is inevitable.

nb. The on-screen display is completely different than the trigger output. The screen display doesn't work in real time, it can easily display the sampled data at the exact point computed by the trigger logic. A screen latency measured in milliseconds doesn't matter.

I will that add that without additional hardware like a variable delay line, it does not matter if the FPGA knows the exact trigger position or not because it can only create a trigger output signal aligned with its own internal clock signal.  So it does not matter if sin(x)/x reconstruction happens before the trigger qualifier or not; a more accurate determination of the real trigger point will not make the trigger output more precise.

This too.

In theory it can be fixed, sure, but in the real world there will be hardware limitations holding back the firmware developers (especially on budget hardware like this).

You want better results? Spend more money...



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrWolf on November 15, 2016, 09:03:03 am
Oh well, I hope I didn't confuse the newbies too much with my testing of the trigger output characteristics of the Rigol scopes...

Don't worry. Newbies are already confused.  I went to anaphylactic shock because I already had discovered that it pulls channels phase diff data out of its well ventilated rear. Waveform averaging was on (1024 wfms). Wave was steady. But phase diff number jumped around by about 5 degrees much faster than averaging settle time. So currently my only option is get a magnifying glass and phase diff data from waveform by cursors.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on November 15, 2016, 03:08:13 pm
Oh well, I hope I didn't confuse the newbies too much with my testing of the trigger output characteristics of the Rigol scopes...

Don't worry. Newbies are already confused.  I went to anaphylactic shock because I already had discovered that it pulls channels phase diff data out of its well ventilated rear. Waveform averaging was on (1024 wfms). Wave was steady. But phase diff number jumped around by about 5 degrees much faster than averaging settle time. So currently my only option is get a magnifying glass and phase diff data from waveform by cursors.

I guess you hit this bug: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg862373/#msg862373 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg862373/#msg862373)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mitsch on November 21, 2016, 08:47:06 pm
Could somebody please give me feedback about the firmware? My Rigol will arrive tomorrow... On the first page there is firmware 04.04 mentioned (Sept/2016) on the Rigol Page I only see 04.02 from 2015? Does this already fix the Jitter-Bug?

Where do I get the latest firmware? And why is it not longer on the Rigol Homepage? I think it was there, because the QnA Post said so...

Thank you very much in advance!

With kind regards,
Mitsch
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on November 21, 2016, 09:23:02 pm
If I were you, I would fill out the firmware request form from Rigol and ask them to explain why they pulled down the latest released version.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mitsch on November 21, 2016, 09:46:28 pm
firmware request form from Rigol

Where can I find that form? Sorry... Haven't found it yet.. But I'll wrote to Rigol:

1. why they removed the latest firmware (and if it is causing bugs or other problems)
2. if it is save to upgrade anyway (maybe somebody could provide the latest firmware)
3. or if I should downgrade (if my new DS1054Z already had 00.04.04 installed on it) because of bugs/problems

Thank you very much!

With kind regards,
Mitsch
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bicurico on November 21, 2016, 10:13:10 pm
1. why they removed the latest firmware (and if it is causing bugs or other problems)

The latest firmware was removed because it could potenially brick DS1000Z models with an old boot loader. This has been discussed on this forum, you need to search the relevant threads. This latest release can still be downloaded if you know the URL (also posted somewhere here), since they only removed the download link.

2. if it is save to upgrade anyway (maybe somebody could provide the latest firmware)

While some users have upgraded before the firmware with removed and claim to have no issues. One of the main benefits of the new firmware version is that it allows a full screen XY render.

3. or if I should downgrade (if my new DS1054Z already had 00.04.04 installed on it) because of bugs/problems

As far as I know, you cannot downgrade the Rigol firmware! Once you upgrade, there is no turning back.

Regarding your previous questions and common questions:

a) I received my Rigol DS1054Z last friday. It came with firmware version 00.04.03.SP2. The board version is 0.1.4. It is with older board versions that the latest firmware had issues with SOME devices.

b) I believe that the corrected firmware will be published soon enough, hence there is no need to take a risk and upgrade with the current removed version.

c) I don't think you will "experience" the "jitter bug", even if your device comes with a firmware version that has this "bug". Most bugs mentioned in this forum are bugs on a much augmented scale, using specific examples to highlight the problem. With regular/normal use I don't think you will suffer from this bug.

d) I successfully enabled all options without a problem. BUT: don't use Windows 10 internal telnet client: it does not work properly on port 5555 with the Rigol! I used Putty and even so, I did not receive any message upon connection on port 5555. I only got something on screen after sending a command. This was not mentioned anywhere, so I add it here for newbies. Just copy&paste the command into the Putty session window and it will be accepted. I wasted like 15 minutes figuring why I didn't get any prompt upon connection...

e) Coming from a basic 2 channel 20MHz CRT scope, I am overwhelmed about the many functions and options this scope offers. I mean there are literally HUNDREDS of options/settings/functions! My old CRT scope has like 10-20 buttons and that's it... So the learning curve is huge on this DS1054Z, which is proof that I did well in getting this scope, even if it was just to learn how to operate a modern DSO. So while you are waiting for that new firmware, use the time to get to know your new scope, when it arrives.

f) 4 channels? Initially I questioned the value of it, but now I got it. Imagine testing a device communicating over i2c and there is a problem. You need two channels to monitor i2c (clock and data) and then for instance a third channel to monitor the produced output signal. Bingo: three channels!

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on November 21, 2016, 10:21:23 pm
It looks like the URL points to the 10/2015 version. Isn't that two versions old? I thought there were two updates in late 2016.?

Here is the FW request form, but you can get here from the Rigol product page, downloads, select firmware and you will get the form.

https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0025:d-0005/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bicurico on November 21, 2016, 10:37:17 pm
StuUK posted the link to the new firmware on the other DS1054Z thread. It is: http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar (http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160914/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar)

His original message is here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/msg1067003/#msg1067003 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/msg1067003/#msg1067003)

The whole thread is here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/)

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mitsch on November 21, 2016, 10:59:18 pm
@Bicurico: HOLY JESUS - Thank you SO much...  :-+
What the heck... Full screen rendering? That was the only thing I thought would be very cool - but I wanted an entry-level scope for a good price, because I don't use it every day... But that would completely make my day (haven't heard about that full screen rendering mode so far). Now I'm even more happy and can't wait to turn this thing on tomorrow...  ^-^

Thank you very much - again! Two last question: have you upgraded to the latest version? (maybe I'll get the same board/fw rev)
And: first update, then unlock or vice versa?

And I'll always use putty (portable) don't mess around with hyper-term..  It's kind of  |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bicurico on November 21, 2016, 11:08:04 pm
"haven't heard about that full screen rendering mode so far"

Yes, that was for me the biggest improvement! See here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/msg1023147/#msg1023147 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/msg1023147/#msg1023147)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/?action=dlattach;attach=254334;image]https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/?action=dlattach;attach=254334;image)

Answers to your questions:

1) No, I have not upgraded my DS1054Z, as I thought that there are so many things to learn, that I would be stupid to go ahead and upgrade to a firmware version which was removed by the manufacturer. Instead, I just wait for the corrected firmware to be published.

2) I did not upgrade at all. I just enabled all options, using the Windows executable of riglol, which by the way gave me the same code as the online generator at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/. (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/.) Aparently, there are different versions of the online generator, so use this one.

3) In XY mode, any old 2 channel analogue scope is better for animations, demos or games display. Bear that in mind, so don't get too excited about the fullscreen XY-mode.

Regads,
Vitor
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mitsch on November 21, 2016, 11:14:43 pm
Again - a big thank you!

And I learned great things today.. Latest rigol fw breaks scoops..  ^-^
I hoop they will release the new "fixed" firmware soon, can't wait to see that full screen mode..  ;)

Good night!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on November 21, 2016, 11:16:39 pm
FWIW, I installed the last two updates from this year and did not notice any new bugs myself. The latest seems to be working fine and each one corrected a few bugs about measure.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 21, 2016, 11:16:58 pm
3) In XY mode, any old 2 channel analogue scope is better for animations, demos or games display. Bear that in mind, so don't get too excited about the fullscreen XY-mode.

The thing which annoys me about this is that it does not have to be true; it is just the DSO manufacturers being lazy.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bicurico on November 21, 2016, 11:20:45 pm
I easily stand corrected on this one, especially because the DS1054Z is my only reference as a DSO.

Because it is new to me and there is so much for me to learn, I have been doing some basic experiments to begin with, including playing some WAV demos in XY-mode.

My old METRIX 2 channel 20MHz CRT scope beats the XY mode hands down. Of course, I am not talking about all the bells and whistles of DSO measurements, rather I am saying that demos do not display as nice as on a CRT - which seems kind of obvious.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on November 21, 2016, 11:59:41 pm
Could somebody please give me feedback about the firmware? My Rigol will arrive tomorrow...

C'mon, chill out, you even have not touch your scope yet. Why torture yourself stressing about the firmware bugs ?

Yeah, they exist, but it doesn't mean it will not perform major basic tasks/functions as an oscilloscope.

Worry about the firmware bugs and update it later once you've spent quality time with it.

My 2 cents.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on November 22, 2016, 12:43:38 am
The latest firmware doesn't 'break scopes'!  It MAY break older models with older bootloaders or something like that but it clearly doesn't break newer scopes.  I installed the latest firmware before it was removed and it works fine.

Software Version
  00.04.04.01.01
Board Version
  0.1.1
Boot Version
  0.0.1.4
Firmware Version
  0.2.3.11
CPLD Version
  1.1

Build Date Aug 23, 2016  <==== look for this!

I have had my scope a couple of months and I would expect that any new scope will be pretty close to mine in configuration except for the Software Version.  I would not expect the latest update to break anything.

To get the expanded System Info display push Menu-Menu-Force-Menu over in the trigger block and then Utility->System->System Info

I would also expect anything with a Build Date later than mine to be pretty well debugged except for the X-Y mode.  It turns out that I really need X-Y so the latest upgrade was well worth the effort.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: cdmackay on November 22, 2016, 02:50:29 am
Board Version
  0.1.1

To get the expanded System Info display push Menu-Menu-Force-Menu over in the trigger block and then Utility->System->System Info

For what it's worth, my recently delivered scope has board 0.1.4.  Everything else as yours.

I also noticed that almost all of the above info is also in the Params file, when saved to USB. Slightly more useful for records than a photo of the expanded Sys Info pop-up. The only difference is that the Params file doesn't have the full version of the software; it only says SoftWare Ver: 00.04.04.SP1, instead of 00.04.04.01.01 as in the on-screen pop-up.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on November 22, 2016, 04:37:39 am
The latest firmware doesn't 'break scopes'!  It MAY break older models with older bootloaders or something like that but it clearly doesn't break newer scopes.  I installed the latest firmware before it was removed and it works fine.

I highly doubt it breaks older scopes either. We'd surely be hearing about a lot more if it did...  :-//

FWIW, it seemed to me that 'scoop guy' was trying to wind up one of our regulars. His screen-shot seemed rather dubious.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 22, 2016, 06:58:41 am
And I learned great things today.. Latest rigol fw breaks scoops..  ^-^
I hoop they will release the new "fixed" firmware soon, can't wait to see that full screen mode..  ;)

The firmware version that your scope comes with should be fine for a while. I'd leave it as-is and dive into how to use it. It's also less to worry about in case you have to send it in for warranty work (unlikely, but since it's new, leave it unmolested for now).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: HzMeister on November 22, 2016, 07:27:27 am
So glad I found this thread. My 1054z is arriving in 2 days and I was planning on upgrading to the latest firmware without checking the board/bootloader version. My scope could be older stock for all I know.

Just to be clear, if the scope I get is newer(what is the cutoff point for new vs old?) is it 100% safe to upgrade to firmware 04.04.01.01?

If not, I'll obviously wait for a safe version to come out. If my trial runs out before the fix, I did want to "hack" it for the extra bandwidth/features - it's one of the reasons I got it as opposed to something else.

If I have a newer scope that can take the update, should I upgrade first and then unlock or vice versa?

Thanks.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on November 22, 2016, 08:32:10 am
So glad I found this thread. My 1054z is arriving in 2 days and I was planning on upgrading to the latest firmware without checking the board/bootloader version. My scope could be older stock for all I know.

Highly unlikely, if you bought from a US distributor like TEquipment.

Quote
Just to be clear, if the scope I get is newer(what is the cutoff point for new vs old?) is it 100% safe to upgrade to firmware 04.04.01.01?

100 % safe? R U kidding me? This is Rigol we are talking about.

In all seriousness, the scope that had the problem -- if indeed it really did have a problem related to the firmware -- was running a _very_ early version of the boot loader. It is extremely unlikely that any newly purchased scope will have that early version. If your scope is delivered with a boot version prior to 0.0.1.2, you should just return it immediately to your vendor and ask for a newer one that hasn't been kicking around in some chain of warehouses for two years.

Quote

If not, I'll obviously wait for a safe version to come out. If my trial runs out before the fix, I did want to "hack" it for the extra bandwidth/features - it's one of the reasons I got it as opposed to something else.

If I have a newer scope that can take the update, should I upgrade first and then unlock or vice versa?

Thanks.

Whatever you like. In my opinion you should wait until the trial runs out before you unlock the scope, unless you absolutely need the 100 MHz bandwidth for some reason (it's not included with the trial options.) This will give you a good "burn in" period so that you know you've got good hardware. It will also give you time to review the preferred procedures for installing and _removing_ the unlocking. (Telnet or other terminal application, sending SCPI commands over LAN connection).  As far as upgrading the firmware is concerned, you are on your own, since Rigol seems to have retracted the latest version. You should know that there seems to be no way for the user to roll back to an earlier version once a later one is installed, although Rigol seems to be able to do it in-house (perhaps by just changing the version number in the older code.) Myself, I have had no problems with the latest firmware.

I sure wish they would get around to fixing the stupid "pluses" error though. It's like an ugly mole on a beautiful woman. Doesn't affect the functionality but makes one cringe a little bit whenever you catch sight of it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mitsch on November 22, 2016, 10:35:20 am
Rigol answered (wow - that was really fast) that they had some trouble with the latest firmware update.
They'll release a new firmware (hopefully without problems) late january / beginning of february next year.  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 22, 2016, 10:11:25 pm
Just to be clear, if the scope I get is newer(what is the cutoff point for new vs old?) is it 100% safe to upgrade to firmware 04.04.01.01?

If not, I'll obviously wait for a safe version to come out. If my trial runs out before the fix, I did want to "hack" it for the extra bandwidth/features - it's one of the reasons I got it as opposed to something else.

As I posted to Mitsch, use the scope as-is during the warranty period. If you find that you run into a bug that an update fixes, then consider installing it. Otherwise, there's no need.

Quote
If I have a newer scope that can take the update, should I upgrade first and then unlock or vice versa?

The hack has not been affected by firmware updates, yet. So, the order doesn't matter, but if you're slightly paranoid then entering the code before upgrading is probably better. Unless you need the extra functionality right away, you may want to wait until your warranty is over depending on your risk tolerance. Although the hack can be removed quite easily, if the hardware fails for some other reason (e.g., screen dies, network/USB interface doesn't work), then you may not be able to reverse the changes before sending it in.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 22, 2016, 10:13:31 pm
Rigol answered (wow - that was really fast) that they had some trouble with the latest firmware update.
They'll release a new firmware (hopefully without problems) late january / beginning of february next year.  :-+

Thanks for the update, Mitsch. That's good news.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: KM6XZ on November 24, 2016, 09:29:09 pm
Just a comment...
I ordered a DS1054Z last week from their distributor in Moscow and it arrived today with a build date in late September. The firmware was 0.04.04 with trailing numbers and board 01.04
I added the "all options" code and everything worked as usual.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:37:11 pm
Just a comment...
I ordered a DS1054Z last week from their distributor in Moscow and it arrived today with a build date in late September. The firmware was 0.04.04 with trailing numbers and board 01.04
I added the "all options" code and everything worked as usual.

"all options" is bad because 500uV Vertical doesn't work well on the DS1054Z. Best not to enable that so you can't select it accidentally.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrWolf on November 29, 2016, 05:42:26 pm
Anyone tried these 10x-only probes?
http://www.sefram.com/en/products/accessories/GE2511-250mhz-passive-oscilloscope-probe-x10-300v.html (http://www.sefram.com/en/products/accessories/GE2511-250mhz-passive-oscilloscope-probe-x10-300v.html)
Around 35€ w/VAT, accessories included.  Seems good match with DS1000Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 29, 2016, 06:51:19 pm
Anyone tried these 10x-only probes?
http://www.sefram.com/en/products/accessories/GE2511-250mhz-passive-oscilloscope-probe-x10-300v.html (http://www.sefram.com/en/products/accessories/GE2511-250mhz-passive-oscilloscope-probe-x10-300v.html)
Around 35€ w/VAT, accessories included.  Seems good match with DS1000Z.

I am sure they will work fine up to 100 MHz but they would be poor for random 250 MHz oscilloscopes do to lack of high frequency compensation adjustments.  There are lots of 100 MHz probes suitable for the Rigol DS1000Z including switchable x1/x10 probes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 07:50:01 pm
Anyone tried these 10x-only probes?
http://www.sefram.com/en/products/accessories/GE2511-250mhz-passive-oscilloscope-probe-x10-300v.html (http://www.sefram.com/en/products/accessories/GE2511-250mhz-passive-oscilloscope-probe-x10-300v.html)
Around 35€ w/VAT, accessories included.  Seems good match with DS1000Z.

They look good to me!

I am sure they will work fine up to 100 MHz but they would be poor for random 250 MHz oscilloscopes do to lack of high frequency compensation adjustments.  There are lots of 100 MHz probes suitable for the Rigol DS1000Z including switchable x1/x10 probes.

There's been a few threads testing cheapo probes and there's not much difference between them up to about 300mHz.

https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=eevblog+cheap+probes (https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=eevblog+cheap+probes)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on November 29, 2016, 08:15:17 pm
Go retro. A decent secondhand high frequency probe from Tektronix, HP or LeCroy is better and cheaper than any new probe you can buy.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: saturation on November 29, 2016, 11:10:07 pm
I bought and reviewed a few in the archives of eevblog.  Up to 300 MHz and $10 each is good in today's price, at the time I bought them 100MHz wase ~$6 each.  For best results characterize the frequency response as the QC varies from unit to unit, so you know the exact response chart.   I think I bought overall between 4-6 as well as a 500 MHz Pico brand for $70 as a reference probe.  The main drawback of the cheapo probes is less the response but its long term durability with use.  But its still cheap enough to be disposable and easy to replace.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1X-10X-60-100-200-300MHz-High-Impedance-Oscilloscope-Probe-Alligator-Clip-G0ZU-/171994386891?var=&hash=item280baa11cb:m:mNgrHKQOdqb2js1JFiNnt2g (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1X-10X-60-100-200-300MHz-High-Impedance-Oscilloscope-Probe-Alligator-Clip-G0ZU-/171994386891?var=&hash=item280baa11cb:m:mNgrHKQOdqb2js1JFiNnt2g)

They are all nameless so choose a best purchase route for you that is local or via International aka China, HK etc.,.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 29, 2016, 11:31:36 pm
There's been a few threads testing cheapo probes and there's not much difference between them up to about 300mHz.

I have seen a few at 300MHz and higher that were absolutely horrible.  At least the third party ones which have high frequency adjustments can be calibrated with a suitable signal source to produce a clean response when combined with a specific oscilloscope.

Most users lack a fast enough reference flat pulse generator to make an objective test and are not using the probes in an application were poor performance would be noticed anyway.  There are good reasons to use active probes in place of high bandwidth high impedance probes.

The biggest reason I use 250MHz probes on my 100MHz oscilloscopes is that they have the x10 readout function which my 100MHz probes lack. :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 09:13:23 am
There's been a few threads testing cheapo probes and there's not much difference between them up to about 300mHz.
I have seen a few at 300MHz and higher that were absolutely horrible.

300Mhz (approximately) seems to be the point where you have to start doing things properly.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: uvamosk on December 02, 2016, 02:08:18 am
Well guys,
 I just got my RMA replacement scope and it still has jitter but not nearly as bad as the last one. BUT this doesn't look right what do you guys think?
This is with a Probe Attached to the scope but nothing attached to it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on December 02, 2016, 05:26:28 am
Well, it doesn't look like anything I can obtain by matching your _visible_ settings. But we need more information.

Do you have both the probe switch and the channel set to 1x or 10x? Naturally the two settings must match.
Why are you offsetting  the trigger position by 15 microseconds when you are using 100 ns/div for the horizontal timebase?
What Acquire mode are you using? (probably Normal, but really should specify)
When you say the probe isn't connected to anything: do you have the ground clip shorted to the probe tip/spring grabber, or is it open?
Have you warmed up the new scope for half an hour then run the self-calibration routine?


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on December 02, 2016, 05:34:04 am
This is as close as I could get.

Using 10x probe and channel settings, probe ground lead clipped to grabber tip, Normal Acquire mode. Where the "loop" made by the ground lead and probe tip is located makes a difference in the noise signal, of course. In my case I have it up in the air about 2 feet above the scope, hanging by a string.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on December 02, 2016, 02:50:13 pm
Just shorting the probe and setting 10mV/div,100ns/div I get about 8mV of noise.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on December 02, 2016, 03:55:14 pm
two things i'd try..
1 - shorting the probe but with a veeeeeeeeery short piece of metal, like the spring thingie
2 - terminating the input and see what's the front end noise (in this case what should one use? a 1 Meg termination? still 50 ohm?)
3 - expand the timebase and see what the waveform look like, if it's a bunch of sinusoids, all the same frequency, you may just have have a nasty transmitter not far from you though 5.68 MHz is not a common frequency for me
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 02, 2016, 05:41:48 pm
In my case I see 1.8mV rms or 8mv rms. That's what you get when your bandwidth is >100MHz  :)
The tip is shorted to the standard ground lead to form a perfect antenna.
Input coupling set to GND puts the noise at 1.2mV. That's the quantization noise I guess (resolution is 0.4mv at this setting)
First thing, enable the BW limit to 20MHz, unless you are interested in these high frequencies. FFT on internal memory showed me the noise to increase to 8mV because of something around 170MHz. But the FM band (88-108) I can also clearly identify.
(http://FTT_shorted_probe.png)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on December 02, 2016, 06:25:55 pm
50 dBV over the noise?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 02, 2016, 06:44:56 pm
No, it says -42.4dBV. With these settings it is about 40dB above the noisefloor.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-P5110 met Tapatalk

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on December 02, 2016, 07:39:54 pm
No, it says -42.4dBV. With these settings it is about 40dB above the noisefloor.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-P5110 met Tapatalk

Wait, I wasn't looking at the numbers, just eyeballing. I'm not that well versed on FFT here, so I took the top line as saying 10 dBV per division. I think the sensitivity is on the next menu? Or what does that 10 dBV mean?

Your cursors show Ay as -42 and By as -113, and the math is -71 dBV (and that does not match the graphic if the scale is 10 dBV/Div, and then shouldn't that delta be in terms of dB rather than dBV?).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on December 02, 2016, 08:29:07 pm
Input coupling set to GND puts the noise at 1.2mV. That's the quantization noise I guess (resolution is 0.4mv at this setting)

The DS1000Z series (and DS2000A series? Others?) lacks the hardware to support ground coupling in the sense that other oscilloscopes do.  Instead it changes the gain of the integrated variable gain amplifier so noise from all of the previous stages is removed.

To measure the actual noise, short out the BNC or attach a 50 ohm coaxial termination or attenuator.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 02, 2016, 08:52:23 pm

Quote
Wait, I wasn't looking at the numbers, just eyeballing. I'm not that well versed on FFT here, so I took the top line as saying 10 dBV per division. I think the sensitivity is on the next menu? Or what does that 10 dBV mean?

Your cursors show Ay as -42 and By as -113, and the math is -71 dBV (and that does not match the graphic if the scale is 10 dBV/Div, and then shouldn't that delta be in terms of dB rather than dBV?).
I quickly set one of the two cursors on the signal of interest (B). The other cursor (A) is just moved away, so ignore the delta.
-42dBV says I measure a signal of 10^(-42/20)V=7.9mV. The scale is 10dB/division. You just don't see the A cursor as it's hidden behind the measurement.
As a side note, this cheapy is able to detect a signal even 30dB lower. That's a signal of 0.25mV!  But that is with the vertical division set to 10mV. If you put input it to X1 it even drops down to 0.025mV. I don't have a spectrum analyzer, so this is my poor mans substitute  ^-^
Quote
The DS1000Z series (and DS2000A series? Others?) lacks the hardware to support ground coupling in the sense that other oscilloscopes do.  Instead it changes the gain of the integrated variable gain amplifier so noise from all of the previous stages is removed.

To measure the actual noise, short out the BNC or attach a 50 ohm coaxial termination or attenuator.
Ah, are they cheating? Did not realize that   :-\
With 50 Ohm termination I see 190uV rms (yeap 1mV scale)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 09:22:16 pm
Quote
To measure the actual noise, short out the BNC or attach a 50 ohm coaxial termination or attenuator.
Ah, are they cheating? Did not realize that   :-\

Why is that cheating?

On analog scopes you often needed a real GND to help you to:
a) Align the 0V to a particular graticule line on the screen
b ) Find the trace when it was off screen and not visible

Neither of those is necessary on a DSO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 02, 2016, 11:52:34 pm
I was thinking about that they might do this to lower the visible noise (it lowers from 380uV to 180uV). But as an aid for finding the ground level it's fine of course. I won't complain...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on December 03, 2016, 12:12:36 am
Quote
The DS1000Z series (and DS2000A series? Others?) lacks the hardware to support ground coupling in the sense that other oscilloscopes do.  Instead it changes the gain of the integrated variable gain amplifier so noise from all of the previous stages is removed.

To measure the actual noise, short out the BNC or attach a 50 ohm coaxial termination or attenuator.

Ah, are they cheating? Did not realize that   :-\
With 50 Ohm termination I see 190uV rms (yeap 1mV scale)

I do not know if I would call it cheating but I think it is deceptive since Rigol does not document it and users almost always expect ground coupling to reflect the true noise limit of the oscilloscope input.  Rigol is similarly deceptive about other things so this is not an isolated fault.  Their "trigger output" has so much jitter as to make it useless in some applications compared to the real trigger output on an analog oscilloscope and some DSOs.  Their "peak detection" on earlier DSOs is actually envelope detection; peak detection is a premium feature while envelope detection is trivial.  Their "delay" function is just another form of horizontal positioning and only works within the existing acquisition record.  Their "delayed sweep" does the same thing and not not acquire a separate sweep or acquision.

How exactly did you arrive at 190uV RMS of noise?  I assume you used the built in RMS measurement capability.  That *should* work however 190uV RMS of noise seems high to me and I would want to verify that RMS measurements work correctly with wide bandwidth noise.  Maybe something weird is going on there which seems to be a ubiquitous problem with Rigol DSOs.

Just for edification, I accurately measured the noise of a pair of 105 MHz Tektronix 7A13s (1) using the tangential method (2) and it came out to 100uV RMS and 85uV RMS.  A 75 MHz 7A18A came out to 10.5uV RMS but such a low level is difficult to measure; it was absolutely below 15uV RMS.  A 120 MHz 7A12 (vintage 1970!) came out at 11.25uV RMS but again, such a low level is difficult to measure and it was absolutely below 15uV RMS.  The 7A12 should be noisier than a 7A18A because of its more complex input amplifier and slightly higher bandwidth and reassuringly that was the result.  These measurements were all made with a 25 ohm source impedance from a terminated 50 ohm cable so they are directly comparable to a shorted or 50 ohm terminated input or real ground coupling.

(1) The Tektornix 7A13 is my benchmark for oscilloscope input noise because its bootstrapped front end circuits and differential input (noise doubled) increase its noise compared to a less functional and simpler design and its high 1mV/div sensitivity makes its noise easy to measure.  If your 100 MHz oscilloscope has more noise than a 7A13, then it has problems.  The lower noise of the 7A18A and 7A11 plus their maximum sensitivity of 5mV/div make self noise measurement difficult.

(2) Tangential noise measurement (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-610-why-digital-scopes-appear-noisy-part-2/msg434766/#msg434766)(3) allows a very accurate RMS noise measurement to be made on an analog oscilloscope.  The 7A13 being a differential comparator is uniquely suited to make this measurement however I did not take advantage of that; a calibrated graticule measurement was more than good enough.

(3) I do not give much credence to Dave's DSO versus analog noise comparison videos because he did not make any quantitative measurements but to be fair, an accurate qualitative measurement of the 5mV/div 50 MHz Tektronix 2225 he had available would have been difficult; an upper limit could have been easily determined using the tangential method though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JossDalVera on December 03, 2016, 12:42:38 am
Where is the best place to buy one? I have seen places online but I wanted to know if you can purchase in stores aswell :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 03, 2016, 09:41:27 am
Quote
How exactly did you arrive at 190uV RMS of noise?  I assume you used the built in RMS measurement capability.  That *should* work however 190uV RMS of noise seems high to me and I would want to verify that RMS measurements work correctly with wide bandwidth noise.  Maybe something weird is going on there which seems to be a ubiquitous problem with Rigol DSOs.
Yes I used the built-in function AVG. The noise is measure in normal acquisition mode. In High Res mode were you average over a number of over captured values (not sure about what it exactly does), the noise goes down to 85uV. I'm not talking about trace averaging. If I do trace averaging, I still measure around 70uV. That could indicate there is some offset, or a systematic error (crosstalk, quantisation error?)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=275241)
I notice my screenshots are often corrupted. Can't seem to find why that happens. Is there some USB eject function that I should use?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 03, 2016, 03:19:35 pm
Ok, I got carried away. I pulled in all raw samples (at 1mV input 50 Ohm terminated) and post processed them with octave:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=275309;image)
The instrument displays 190uVrms. The FFT shows a noise floor around -128dBV at a RBW of 833Hz. If the scope has a 125MHz bandwidth (estimate) it will show noise 52dB higher. -128+52=-76dbV (=154uVrms). I do see spurs at 62.5MHz ,125MHz and 250MHz.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on December 03, 2016, 06:28:25 pm
Quote
How exactly did you arrive at 190uV RMS of noise?  I assume you used the built in RMS measurement capability.  That *should* work however 190uV RMS of noise seems high to me and I would want to verify that RMS measurements work correctly with wide bandwidth noise.  Maybe something weird is going on there which seems to be a ubiquitous problem with Rigol DSOs.
Yes I used the built-in function AVG. The noise is measure in normal acquisition mode. In High Res mode were you average over a number of over captured values (not sure about what it exactly does), the noise goes down to 85uV. I'm not talking about trace averaging. If I do trace averaging, I still measure around 70uV. That could indicate there is some offset, or a systematic error (crosstalk, quantisation error?)

Using averaging or high resolution acquisition mode is note going to return a proper or comparable measurement of noise.  Either will attenuate high frequency noise (and are useful for this reason); my measurements were over the full bandwidth of roughly 100 MHz.  (1) The fact that you measured 85uV RMS and 70uV RMS with high resolution and averaging indicates to me that something is very wrong; the noise should have been much much lower because of limited bandwidth.

What should work is an automated RMS measurement of the trace without averaging or high resolution mode enabled.

The measurement should *not* change significantly at different sample rates or record lengths (although it may look visually different); if it does, then something is wrong and this is easy to demonstrate.  The RMS value is equal to the standard deviation which is what the tangential measurement I used returned. (2)(3) If half of the sample points are removed by using a lower sampling rate, the standard deviation remains the same.  If half of the sample points are removed by halving the record length, then the standard deviation also remains the same.  This applies *even if* the noise bandwidth is undersampled so aliasing is not important (!) which is how RF sampling voltmeters can make RMS measurements into the microwave RF bands. (4)

The measurement should *also not* change significantly when operating in real time or with a single shot acquisition.  I only bring this up because Rigol may be doing some DSP voodoo on its real time display to produce index grading which could interfere with an accurate RMS measurement so this should be checked.  If the results differ, then I would trust the single shot measurement more than the real time measurement.

(1) I am ignoring shape factor of the bandpass.  All of my measurements were on instruments with a single pole Gaussian rolloff which increases the measured noise by 1.6 times because noise above the 3dB bandwidth is also included.  Do not sweat the small stuff until the big stuff is taken care of.  :)

(2) A couple years ago I verified that tangential RMS noise measurement on an analog oscilloscope agreed with RMS measurement using sampling RMS voltmeter and automated RMS measurement on a good DSO.  I mean it should, right?  So does it?  Actually, tangential measurement agreed so well while some DSO RMS measurements did not that I now trust analog tangential RMS measurement more than random DSO measurements.

(3) I do not think the Rigol can do it but some higher end DSOs can produce histograms and make standard deviation measurements.  The standard deviation measurement should return the same value as the RMS measurement.

(4) This suggests another test which can be done besides changing the time/div or record length.  The Rigol has to reduce sample rate when more channels (1 GS/s for 1 channel, 500 MS/s for 2 channels, 250 MS/s for 3 or 4 channels) are used but this should *not* affect the RMS noise measurement made on one channel.  If the measurement changes, then something is broken.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 04, 2016, 10:06:43 am
Quote
Using averaging or high resolution acquisition mode is note going to return a proper or comparable measurement of noise.  Either will attenuate high frequency noise (and are useful for this reason); my measurements were over the full bandwidth of roughly 100 MHz.  (1) The fact that you measured 85uV RMS and 70uV RMS with high resolution and averaging indicates to me that something is very wrong; the noise should have been much much lower because of limited bandwidth.
I averaged to see if it is actually random noise. And it is not. Default display:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=275565;image)
1024 traces averaged were all the noise is uncorrelated should bring the trace back to the vertical quantization resolution of 80uV (about 40uV rms) (1mV/20). I can clearly see a 125MHz signal. That's what I also found in the FFT result from the raw samples:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=275567;image)
If I use the raw sample data I have a bandwidth up to sample rate/2. That's 5 times oversampling for a scope bandwidth of 100MHz. I think I have shown clearly that the rigol has a lot of noise and a spur. I don't consider the scope to be defective though, it's just not the high quality that other scopes might offer.
Quote
The measurement should *not* change significantly at different sample rates or record lengths (although it may look visually different); if it does, then something is wrong and this is easy to demonstrate.
I checked, it does not change with memory depth settings.
It does go up (a lot) when I change the time base. The same test done at 50us/div displays a much wider noise band and it reports 500uV RMS noise. That should not happen. Hi RES solves that and lowers the noise back to 70uV (also single shot). And that's not averaging. With averaging the noise drops to 0-40uV (and the display is a nice noiseless line). Sample rate is 1Gs, mem depth 1.2M
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on December 04, 2016, 03:03:41 pm
The same test done at 50us/div displays a much wider noise band and it reports 500uV RMS noise. That should not happen. Hi RES solves that and lowers the noise back to 70uV (also single shot). And that's not averaging. With averaging the noise drops to 0-40uV (and the display is a nice noiseless line). Sample rate is 1Gs, mem depth 1.2M

Perhaps I've had too much wine, but... I cannot find these values in the pictures you attached.
You say with NORMAL acquisition at 50ns/div you get 500 uV RMS noise, but the first attached picture shows 164 uV RMS measure.
You say in averaging the noise drops to 0-40 uV and yet the picture with AVERAGE acquisition mode, 1024 averages at 1GS/s and 1.2 point of memory shows 72.3 uV of rms noise.

What am I not understanding?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on December 04, 2016, 03:39:27 pm
Quote
Using averaging or high resolution acquisition mode is note going to return a proper or comparable measurement of noise.  Either will attenuate high frequency noise (and are useful for this reason); my measurements were over the full bandwidth of roughly 100 MHz.  (1) The fact that you measured 85uV RMS and 70uV RMS with high resolution and averaging indicates to me that something is very wrong; the noise should have been much much lower because of limited bandwidth.

I averaged to see if it is actually random noise. And it is not. 1024 traces averaged were all the noise is uncorrelated should bring the trace back to the vertical quantization resolution of 40uV (about 20uV rms) (1mV/40). I can clearly see a 125MHz signal. That's what I also found in the FFT result from the raw samples.

It is interesting that it was able to trigger on it as all; that 125 MHz signal must be pretty large.  Averaging is especially useful for extracting a signal below the noise level if you have an external trigger signal available.  It makes sense that a spurious signal would be 125 MHz since that is or related to the external ADC clock frequency.

Quote
If I use the raw sample data I have a bandwidth up to sample rate/2. That's 5 times oversampling for a scope bandwidth of 100MHz. I think I have shown clearly that the rigol has a lot of noise and a spur. I don't consider the scope to be defective though, it's just not the high quality that other scopes might offer.

The sample rate and aliasing have nothing to do with input bandwidth.

I wonder if the DS2000A series which Rigol advertises as "low noise" whatever that means since they does not specify it is any better.

I have a pocket sized oscilloscope tester for verifying bandwidth, transient response, and jitter but maybe I need to make something for noise testing in the field like in the video I linked.

Quote
Quote
The measurement should *not* change significantly at different sample rates or record lengths (although it may look visually different); if it does, then something is wrong and this is easy to demonstrate.

I checked, it does not change with memory depth settings.

It does go up (a lot) when I change the time base. The same test done at 50us/div displays a much wider noise band and it reports 500uV RMS noise. That should not happen. Hi RES solves that and lowers the noise back to 70uV (also single shot). And that's not averaging. With averaging the noise drops to 0-40uV (and the display is a nice noiseless line). Sample rate is 1Gs, mem depth 1.2M

I wonder what is going on then.  Noise measurements in averaging and high resolution mode are not very useful and changing the time/div should not affect RMS noise measurement.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 04, 2016, 03:56:57 pm
Quote
Perhaps I've had too much wine, but... I cannot find these values in the pictures you attached.
You say with NORMAL acquisition at 50ns/div you get 500 uV RMS noise, but the first attached picture shows 164 uV RMS measure.
You say in averaging the noise drops to 0-40 uV and yet the picture with AVERAGE acquisition mode, 1024 averages at 1GS/s and 1.2 point of memory shows 72.3 uV of rms noise.

What am I not understanding?
I only attached the 100ns/div pictures. This time the same but at 50us. It should be the same. but it is not. Now it actually depends on the chosen memory depth  |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on December 04, 2016, 04:32:10 pm
Aha! You wrote 50 us, I read 50 ns   :palm:. And in fact the pictures you attached before were for 50 nanoseconds timebase. I see now the 50 microseconds one.
So, my wine not only works sideways, but also upside down.  :)

BTW, couldn't all this inconsistency be a side effect of the fact the DS1000Z compute quantities based on what is displayed on screen? This might all boil down to the algorithm that chooses which points to show on the screen. At the fastest timebases, all points are used. When you slow it down, it has to make choices, and this might be the source of all discrepancies.

Should I go back to my bottle?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: saturation on December 04, 2016, 04:54:22 pm
Just FYI.

Measuring DSO noise is fairly straightforward, and is much as Hess states.  The protocol is 50 ohm termination with the scope set at maximum bandwidth and memory.

Details. 

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-3020EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-3020EN.pdf)

Above includes how-to as well as sample noise floors for high end DSOs.

It will vary by channel input amp setting.  FWIW the old Rigol 1054e has a floor ~500uV rms at lowest setting.  GWInstek 1054B ~ 90uV rms. 

As white noise the trace will flatten out if averaging is applied to the waveform, but the rms value remains.

The purpose of GND setting on DSO is not just to center the graticule or locate the trace, but mostly importantly it removes the effect of the DSO on the DUT and shows a physical constant independent of electronics, that the input is at ground potential of the DSO which should be ~ 0.000 000V as far as the DSO is concerned and is a major point of reference; noise should also at zero too.

"Faking" a GND by setting input amps to null its inputs is very problematic as 0 V potential cannot be assured, particularly if the DSO has unknown faults or develops one later.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 04, 2016, 05:01:14 pm
Quote
It is interesting that it was able to trigger on it as all; that 125 MHz signal must be pretty large.  Averaging is especially useful for extracting a signal below the noise level if you have an external trigger signal available.  It makes sense that a spurious signal would be 125 MHz since that is or related to the external ADC clock frequency.
No it was not triggered. The wave shown is correlated to the internal timing of the scope. So it looks like it is triggered, but it's just free running. The 128MHz displayed is present in the sampled data and about equally sized as the noise.
Today I discovered that the 1mV scale is just the 2mV scale multiplied by two. This means the ADC resolution is the same in 2mV and in 1mV. All other vertical settings result in about 10/13 division of which you see 8 on your screen. For FFT this is important as the signal may not clip:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=275689;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrWolf on December 04, 2016, 06:13:43 pm
Today I discovered that the 1mV scale is just the 2mV scale multiplied by two. This means the ADC resolution is the same in 2mV and in 1mV.

Found this when investigating counter input sensitivity:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1080859/#msg1080859 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1080859/#msg1080859)
Wish they would fake 2ns timebase also.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on December 04, 2016, 07:01:47 pm
Is this not ADC interleaving together with small non-linearity and offset differences between the ADCs? I see a similar thing on my MSO1074Z-S.

Typically these can be cal'd out, but this is dependent on the cal routine and the application of any of those corrections working.

What is it you're intending to use the scope for that will cause this to be a problem for you? I'm not saying it won't be, I'm just trying to figure out the case where this internally generated noise would be a problem for you, bearing in mind that once you've got your probe in there there'll be plenty of other places for noise to come in.

By the way, I noticed that the 500uV seems to be working on my MSO1074Z now. It used to have horrendous offsets, making it unusable on some channels. It's still a digital amplification rather than in the analogue domain though. My firmware is 00.04.04.SP1, not sure if that's the latest, I installed it a couple of months ago and did do a re-cal afterwards.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on December 04, 2016, 08:32:28 pm
BTW, couldn't all this inconsistency be a side effect of the fact the DS1000Z compute quantities based on what is displayed on screen? This might all boil down to the algorithm that chooses which points to show on the screen. At the fastest timebases, all points are used. When you slow it down, it has to make choices, and this might be the source of all discrepancies.

I suspect that this is exactly the problem.  I was already suspicious that this was the case because of other reported inconsistencies with automatic measurements and decoding but hoped that a single shot RMS measurement would work correctly.

The measurement should still work if the acquisition record is transferred to another system where the RMS or standard deviation is computed.

Actually this make two problems when the 125 MHz spurious signal is included.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 04, 2016, 08:33:14 pm
I'm not really interested in the noise. I responded on someone asking if the noise of his scope was an issue. Gained quite some insight from all the measurements I made. About the ADC interleaving. I thought it's a 1GHz flash type ADC converter but indeed it could actually be interleaved. I'll recalibrate the scope to see if it makes a difference.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 04, 2016, 08:53:54 pm
This is the 1kHz square wave calibration signal, with deep FFT. The bin width is 10Hz and the span 125MHz as I used 24Msamples @ 250Ms/sec:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=275742;image)
And zoomed in a bit:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=275748;image)
I would say the duty cycle is not exactly 50% as the second harmonic is visible at -60dB.   :=\
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on December 04, 2016, 08:58:46 pm
Quote
It is interesting that it was able to trigger on it as all; that 125 MHz signal must be pretty large.  Averaging is especially useful for extracting a signal below the noise level if you have an external trigger signal available.  It makes sense that a spurious signal would be 125 MHz since that is or related to the external ADC clock frequency.

No it was not triggered. The wave shown is correlated to the internal timing of the scope. So it looks like it is triggered, but it's just free running. The 128MHz displayed is present in the sampled data and about equally sized as the noise.

If the acquisition is done using averaging, then how did the trigger point get synchronized with the 128MHz signal (125MHz?  128MHz?) except by triggering on it?

If it is generated during decimation or processing, that is even worse.

Does trigger holdoff have any effect on it?  I am guessing not given how triggering occurs after digitizing.

Quote
Today I discovered that the 1mV scale is just the 2mV scale multiplied by two. This means the ADC resolution is the same in 2mV and in 1mV. All other vertical settings result in about 10/13 division of which you see 8 on your screen.

This is common on cheap USB oscilloscopes.  I wish they would document it but obviously it would make them look worse so it is better to hide it.

Is this not ADC interleaving together with small non-linearity and offset differences between the ADCs? I see a similar thing on my MSO1074Z-S.

Typically these can be cal'd out, but this is dependent on the cal routine and the application of any of those corrections working.

This can happen and is a concern when an interleaved digitizer is used like on the various Rigol DSOs but the resulting sampling spurs should be lower amplitude than the noise.  My Tektronix 2440 should greatly suffer from this do to its ungainly design but is actually pretty good.

Quote
What is it you're intending to use the scope for that will cause this to be a problem for you? I'm not saying it won't be, I'm just trying to figure out the case where this internally generated noise would be a problem for you, bearing in mind that once you've got your probe in there there'll be plenty of other places for noise to come in.

Making RMS noise measurements is one of the few reasons I would upgrade from an analog oscilloscope to a DSO.  The procedure is time consuming on an analog DSO.  In this case, the Rigol fails on two counts being both noisy and not making RMS measurements correctly.

If that rogue signal is being generated after the digitizer, then that makes a third failure since it cannot be averaged out.  I regularly use averaging mode to measure power supply ripple which is below the noise floor of the power supply and oscilloscope.  I can do this on an analog oscilloscope without averaging but only at the expense of bandwidth.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 04, 2016, 09:10:37 pm
Quote
If the acquisition is done using averaging, then how did the trigger point get synchronized with the 128MHz signal (125MHz?  128MHz?) except by triggering on it?
This is a correlated signal, so regardless of the trigger moment is always "sees" the same signal.
With postprocessing the 128MHz can be removed from the spectrum (just removing that one bin). For noise measurement this should not matter a lot. But the displayed RMS value is not correct of course. A self calibration routine should be able to do that (it can measure the complete FFT bins and compensate the error in each bin to make it zero).
Scope is warmed up, I'll start the calibration (half an hour or so...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 04, 2016, 09:23:03 pm
Making RMS noise measurements is one of the few reasons I would upgrade from an analog oscilloscope to a DSO.  The procedure is time consuming on an analog DSO.  In this case, the Rigol fails on two counts being both noisy and not making RMS measurements correctly.

There's some sort of bug when measuring RMS on multiple channels simultaneously but RMS on a single channel works perfectly.

nb. If the signal is periodic then "RMS" is the wrong measurement. You should use PerRMS for that, and it works just fine on mutliepl channels, etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on December 04, 2016, 09:45:31 pm
I'm not really interested in the noise. I responded on someone asking if the noise of his scope was an issue. Gained quite some insight from all the measurements I made. About the ADC interleaving. I thought it's a 1GHz flash type ADC converter but indeed it could actually be interleaved. I'll recalibrate the scope to see if it makes a difference.

Subranging or pipelined ADCs replaced flash ADCs a long time ago.  The Rigol DS1000Z series uses the Hittite HMCAD1511 which has four separate 250 MS/s subranging ADCs which are interleaved to reach 1 GS/s or two channels of 500 MS/s.  Each subranging ADC has a pipeline delay of 32 clock cycles.

The datasheet actually implies that each 250 MS/s ADC is made up of a pair of 125 MS/s ADCs which is backed up by 8 fine gain controls.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on December 05, 2016, 07:59:34 am
Subranging or pipelined ADCs replaced flash ADCs a long time ago.
Commercial pipelined ADCs (1970s) predate flash ADCs (1980s), so its interesting that flash ADCs for more than 4 or 5 bits ever appeared.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marksail on December 05, 2016, 05:27:46 pm
Hi all, I got a 1054z and DG1022z in early last week.
I'm new to any test equipment beyond a good multi-meter, but learning them has been going fairly well.
Lot's of EEVblog tutorials, and searching around the good info in this thread. THX!

After being able to put a wave file into the signal generator using Ultra Station / Sigma, I figured all systems are an eventual go,
so I decided it's time to go ahead and do the 1054z hack.


But I get 'invalid license' no matter how I go about it.
Whether I input the key from the o'scope Editor, using SCPI commands via telnet (PuTTY) or Sigma....always the same...'invalid license'.
Can't be an issue of confusing B for 8, S for 5, etc...

I've generated DSER several times from http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/, (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/,) always get the same key.
Tried with a key generated for just Record...it was invalid too.

Serial # on screen matches the one on the unit which matches cal certificate.

Checked firmware via upgrade routine..says same as already installed ...00.04.03.SP2

Sorry to ask for help here, given how often this topic has come up...I've really tried to figure this out...
But I'm stuck... |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marksail on December 06, 2016, 09:35:54 pm
Problem solved. 
In case other newbs have problems with the code they get from http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/.... (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/....)

I got a different code, one that worked, from the Win app in the 'source code archive', linked at the bottom of the page.
Thanks to a little help today getting the app to work... https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-'unlock'-source-code-archive/msg1085955/#msg1085955, (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-'unlock'-source-code-archive/msg1085955/#msg1085955,)
and having found out about the app from deep in this thread...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: OE2WHP on December 07, 2016, 11:30:49 am
Afaik, the win source uses the same algorithms like the web app.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marksail on December 07, 2016, 01:29:54 pm
Afaik, the win source uses the same algorithms like the web app.

Hi OE2WHP ,

do you mean the web app in the source files zip, or the web app at the link http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)       ?

The win app gave me a different code than what the link gave; the win app code worked and the link code didn't.  I'm positive correct ser # was used, etc.
I tried the web app in the source files zip, but it didn't return anything...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jgilbert on December 16, 2016, 07:53:18 pm
I'm also having some trouble with the unlock codes. Its a brand new MSO1104Z running 00.04.04.SP1, board revision 6.1.1. I've tried both the command-line tool and the web site, which both generate the same code. Both show up as invalid. Did Rigol change something recently? Or does the code not work on the MSO series?

I've tried the DSAB, DSAC and DSER codes to no avail.

Any hints would be helpful. I've been double-checking every letter twice.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on December 16, 2016, 08:10:58 pm
I didn't think the MSO could be hacked with a simple code?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 16, 2016, 08:45:33 pm
I'm also having some trouble with the unlock codes. Its a brand new MSO1104Z

Any hints would be helpful. I've been double-checking every letter twice.

It doesn't work with the MSO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on December 17, 2016, 10:43:03 am
You need to open up the MSO1000Z series (and the ds1000z plus), and get amemory dump with a JTAG emulator. Also there's a special rigup version.

There's vid here on how to do it, but it's also been documented to death on the forum. Recently there have been reports of it not working reliably, I don't know how much of that is user error and how much is a change in scope in the manufacturing process. All I know is it's definitely worked in the past.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvcGn_ScG5w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvcGn_ScG5w)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alex27riva on December 26, 2016, 06:19:44 pm
Hi, how can i remove the hook from the probe (Rigol PVP2150) ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on December 26, 2016, 06:33:32 pm
Hi, how can i remove the hook from the probe (Rigol PVP2150) ?

It is just a friction fit so pulls straight off.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ted572 on December 26, 2016, 06:38:58 pm
Hello alex27riva:

As to how to remove the Probe Hook:  Grab the Probe Hook Ass'y from where you are touching it with your finger in the picture you provided.  Then just pull the Hook Assembly off from the Probe?  You will then see the sharp pointed Probe Tip that is generally used to probe around on the Unit Under Test (UUT) such as a Printed Circuit Board (PCB), etc.

   Enjoy you new O'Scope.   Cheers and have Happy New Year, Ted
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: enry68 on December 29, 2016, 09:17:33 am
HI to all!

I'm new here, I've just bought a new Rigol DS1054Z. In this my first post my contribution to the Forum will be poor because I've a lot of questions ;D .

I've read a lot of threads in this amazing forum and I'm not sure to have right understood how is the situation about the last Rigol FW.  :o

If I've read that the last FW is dated in the 2016 but Rigol has removed it from the site because it generates reboot problems. I've also read that this problems disappears on scopes that has a new bootloader. Now the first questions:

1) Can I update to the last FW without having the last bootloader ?
1a) if no, is the bootloader upgradable ?
1b) if Yes, Where I can find the bootloader ?

Other consideration, I've read that some users had problems during the unlock procedure with the newer FW. Some of them has solved their problems others no. Here other questions:

2) What is the last stable FW for the scope ?
2a) Is the last FW hackable ?

I hope that the answer for my questions are usefull to all other people that populate the Forum and not only for me.

Sorry for the questions in this my first post but is the only way that I've to comunicate with other owner of this scope.  :-+

Thanks to all,
Enrico.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 29, 2016, 09:33:45 am
1) Can I update to the last FW without having the last bootloader ?
Yes.

2) What is the last stable FW for the scope ?
2a) Is the last FW hackable ?
04.04.01.01
Yes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: enry68 on December 29, 2016, 09:55:03 am
1) Can I update to the last FW without having the last bootloader ?
Yes.

2) What is the last stable FW for the scope ?
2a) Is the last FW hackable ?
04.04.01.01
Yes.

Thanks Fungus for the fast answer!!

About the bootloader I've read that the scope(if upgraded without the last bootloader) after some hours it will reboot ? It's true ?

Thanks again,
Enrico.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bicurico on December 29, 2016, 10:01:23 am
The last firmware has apparently a bug on SOME devices, which seems to be linked to some older boot loader version. This has caused Rigol to withdraw the last firmware from its download site and it is expected that a corrected firmware will be published in January 2017.


So:

Do you have the last firmware? Yes: Great! No: Then do not upgrade it with the problematic firmware. Wait for the new release and only use firmware from Rigol's website.
You like living on the razor's edge? Get the last firmware and flash it. Chances are, it will just work.

I never read about a "reboot after so many hours" problem, though.

All I have written here, has been posted in the Rigol DS1054Z related threads.

Regards,
Vitor

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: enry68 on December 29, 2016, 10:09:08 am
The last firmware has apparently a bug on SOME devices, which seems to be linked to some older boot loader version. This has caused Rigol to withdraw the last firmware from its download site and it is expected that a corrected firmware will be published in January 2017.

  • People who already had flashed that last firmware and experienced no problem are fine.
  • People who got a new device delivered with that last firmware are fine.
  • People who flashed the firmware and had problems (apparently 1 person so far), sent the device in for repair/downgrade.

So:

Do you have the last firmware? Yes: Great! No: Then do not upgrade it with the problematic firmware. Wait for the new release and only use firmware from Rigol's website.
You like living on the razor's edge? Get the last firmware and flash it. Chances are, it will just work.

I never read about a "reboot after so many hours" problem, though.

All I have written here, has been posted in the Rigol DS1054Z related threads.

Regards,
Vitor

Thanks Victor, You are pretty precise.

So I thinks that the last "secure" and official FW is this:

Released version: 00.04.03.02.03
Release Date: 10/20/2015

For the next one I think that is necessary to wait January for the Official Upate.

Thanks to all.  :-+

Enrico.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: enry68 on December 29, 2016, 03:10:30 pm
I've checked my scope the FW is the following:

Model:DS1104Z
SN:DS1ZA181xxxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.4
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP2

So I've understood that the mine version (SP2) correspond to the latest official version of the FW of the scope.
I've tried to install all the option but with the 5mV/div the signal level goes down out of the screen, also after the calibration. So , with telnet, I've removed all the option and reinstalled with the option DSER (all but without the 5mV/div).

I've verified that the bootloader is 1.4 that (reading a lot of pages ago) seems to be right for the 4.4 FW, it is true ?

Many thanks to all.
Enrico.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 29, 2016, 05:26:19 pm
So I've understood that the mine version (SP2) correspond to the latest official version of the FW of the scope.
I've tried to install all the option but with the 5mV/div the signal level goes down out of the screen, also after the calibration. So , with telnet, I've removed all the option and reinstalled with the option DSER (all but without the 5mV/div).

Yes, that option doesn't work.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: enry68 on December 29, 2016, 05:35:51 pm
So I've understood that the mine version (SP2) correspond to the latest official version of the FW of the scope.
I've tried to install all the option but with the 5mV/div the signal level goes down out of the screen, also after the calibration. So , with telnet, I've removed all the option and reinstalled with the option DSER (all but without the 5mV/div).

Yes, that option doesn't work.  :)

Thanks ...verified on my scope  :-DD

It is possible to roll back to an older version ? (Where find it ...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 29, 2016, 05:48:42 pm
It is possible to roll back to an older version ?

Strangely not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TheoB on December 29, 2016, 06:15:09 pm
I've checked my scope the FW is the following:

Model:DS1104Z
SN:DS1ZA181xxxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.4
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP2
Were do you find this info? Utility -> System -> System Info is what I do, but I do not get Firmware version, Boot version or CPLD version. I also tried the *IDN? SCPI command and get the same info except Board Version is not present.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: enry68 on December 29, 2016, 06:44:42 pm
I've checked my scope the FW is the following:

Model:DS1104Z
SN:DS1ZA181xxxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.4
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP2
Were do you find this info? Utility -> System -> System Info is what I do, but I do not get Firmware version, Boot version or CPLD version. I also tried the *IDN? SCPI command and get the same info except Board Version is not present.

Symply goint into print setup and selecting PARAMS as output inplace of picture. Than you can save the parameters of the scope into the USB key for example.

Enrico.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: enry68 on December 29, 2016, 06:46:33 pm
It is possible to roll back to an older version ?

Strangely not.

ohhh  :-BROKE

Thanks anyway  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 29, 2016, 06:53:36 pm
I've checked my scope the FW is the following:

Model:DS1104Z
SN:DS1ZA181xxxxxx
Manufacturer:RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Board Ver:0.1.1
Firmware Ver:0.2.3.11
BOOT Ver:0.0.1.4
CPLD Ver:1.1
SoftWare Ver:00.04.03.SP2
Were do you find this info? Utility -> System -> System Info is what I do, but I do not get Firmware version, Boot version or CPLD version. I also tried the *IDN? SCPI command and get the same info except Board Version is not present.

You have to type a special cheat code.

Do this:  Menu -> Menu -> Force -> Menu -> Utility -> System -> System Info

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on December 29, 2016, 07:00:06 pm
To display the full version information:

- In the trigger area on the front panel, press MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU         <<< press this sequence very quickly

- In the menu area, press UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Branqazwsx on January 02, 2017, 10:06:53 pm
The last firmware has apparently a bug on SOME devices, which seems to be linked to some older boot loader version. This has caused Rigol to withdraw the last firmware from its download site and it is expected that a corrected firmware will be published in January 2017.

  • People who already had flashed that last firmware and experienced no problem are fine.
  • People who got a new device delivered with that last firmware are fine.
  • People who flashed the firmware and had problems (apparently 1 person so far), sent the device in for repair/downgrade.

So:

Do you have the last firmware? Yes: Great! No: Then do not upgrade it with the problematic firmware. Wait for the new release and only use firmware from Rigol's website.
You like living on the razor's edge? Get the last firmware and flash it. Chances are, it will just work.

I never read about a "reboot after so many hours" problem, though.

All I have written here, has been posted in the Rigol DS1054Z related threads.

Regards,
Vitor

I have just ordered a DS1054. I assume it will be on FW: 04.03.02.03. I would like to "hack" my unit and get the upgraded features. Once I apply the hack will it still be possible to update to the new firmware when it is released later this month?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on January 02, 2017, 10:28:23 pm
I have just ordered a DS1054. I assume it will be on FW: 04.03.02.03. I would like to "hack" my unit and get the upgraded features. Once I apply the hack will it still be possible to update to the new firmware when it is released later this month?

I don't know which version came in my scope when I bought it a few months ago.  No matter...  If you can find 00.04.04.01.01 (AKA 00.04.04.SP1) it is the latest version that I know of.  It works fine and the unlocking works as well.  I think I did the firmware upgrade first but I'm not sure.  Nevertheless, it works.

There was a recent thread where the user claimed a problem when unlocking a new scope.  It was user error!  Ignore it!

http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)

Options should be DSER (that is NOT a typo) - do NOT use anything else!  Leave Private Key blank.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: enry68 on January 05, 2017, 03:35:54 pm
Goodmorning,
I've just contacted my seller and I've asked to him the last SW for my Rigol DS1054Z. I has sent to me the last version 04.04.1.1 or so called 4.4.SP1. I've just installed it on my scope and the display reports these informations:

Manufacturer       RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES
Model                   DS1104Z
SN                        DS1ZA18xxxxxxx
Software Version  00.04.04.01.01
Board Version       0.1.1
Firmware Version  0.2.3.11
CPLD Version        1.1
Build Date             Aug 23 2016 16:29:08|0 0:1/0 17:38
StartUp Cnter       25

I hope these informations are usefull to somebody. :-+

Thanks to all,
Enrico.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hansibull on January 06, 2017, 04:57:20 pm
Hi!
I have a question about the math functionality. A few days ago I was probing the output of a 24v class D amplifier, where both the plus and the minus output is driven for maximal amplitude. To accomplish the "rectified signal" has a DC component referenced to ground, so if I'm going to measure the speaker output, I'll have to do a differential measurement.

The math operation suitable for this is the A-B operation, and the result is displayed as a purple wave at the screen. My question is: Is it possible to let the scope calculate the VRMS, Vp-p and frequency on the "math curve", like it can on the four independent channels? At the moment I've been using the cursors, but it would be much better if it could do it automatically!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on January 06, 2017, 05:14:52 pm
My question is: Is it possible to let the scope calculate the VRMS, Vp-p and frequency on the "math curve", like it can on the four independent channels?

It better be able to.

Page 6-26 of the user guide says that the source selection for automatic measurements (select measure and then source) includes "math" which should do what you want.
Title: Some DS1054Z onanism :)
Post by: t_i_t_o on January 09, 2017, 12:44:09 pm
Don't know if my DS is too good or the Fluke is too bad :)
100MHz SDRAM clock with the same 200MHz Tek probe. Pics attached.
The 150MHz Rigol probe almost makes no difference with the Tek one. Pic attached too - the one from 14:27.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: stilter on January 09, 2017, 11:03:55 pm
I'm unable to access the "network settings" portion of the web interface on a ds1054z (04.04.SP1) The page prompts for credentials but the defaults (empty username, "111111" as password) don't work.

Interestingly enough it is possible to successfully change the password in a different part of the web interface (no username is required to do this) using "111111" as the old password. So the default password does seem to be valid. Any thoughts on this?

I mailed this question to Rigol support for my scope and received next answer:
  Could you try this user name / password with your device, please?
  username: test
  password.: 111111

  Please note: password / user name doesn't work on some units.
  If you have the same behavior this will be reworked with next firmware update (planned end of January 2017).


I hope this helps.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on January 09, 2017, 11:32:21 pm
I'm unable to access the "network settings" portion of the web interface on a ds1054z (04.04.SP1) The page prompts for credentials but the defaults (empty username, "111111" as password) don't work.

Interestingly enough it is possible to successfully change the password in a different part of the web interface (no username is required to do this) using "111111" as the old password. So the default password does seem to be valid. Any thoughts on this?

I mailed this question to Rigol support for my scope and received next answer:
  Could you try this user name / password with your device, please?
  username: test
  password.: 111111

  Please note: password / user name doesn't work on some units.
  If you have the same behavior this will be reworked with next firmware update (planned end of January 2017).


I hope this helps.

It's rigollan/111111 - I just grepped it out of the firmware strings and tried it on my scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on January 10, 2017, 04:39:03 am
Hi!
I have a question about the math functionality. A few days ago I was probing the output of a 24v class D amplifier, where both the plus and the minus output is driven for maximal amplitude. To accomplish the "rectified signal" has a DC component referenced to ground, so if I'm going to measure the speaker output, I'll have to do a differential measurement.

The math operation suitable for this is the A-B operation, and the result is displayed as a purple wave at the screen. My question is: Is it possible to let the scope calculate the VRMS, Vp-p and frequency on the "math curve", like it can on the four independent channels? At the moment I've been using the cursors, but it would be much better if it could do it automatically!

Once you have a Math function selected and have the purple trace displayed:  Measure>Source> MATH becomes available and the left-hand horizontal and vertical Measurements menus turn purple and you have all the automatic measurements available for the MATH trace.
 
But take _all_ the Automatic Measurements made on the DS1054z with a large grain of salt: verify by inspection of graticule and channel/timebase settings and/or cursors before you trust them. And if someone's life depends on the measurements... get a better oscilloscope.    :horse:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on January 10, 2017, 05:53:11 am
You can read the password with this SCPI command:

:LAN:PASSword?

For the user name I know of no SCPI command.

Peter

Careful... I sent this command to my scope using telnet on the LAN connection... it returned nothing and broke the scope's LAN connection (no further responses to any commands sent by telnet.) I had to reboot the scope and reestablish the connection to my router to get LAN functionality back.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on January 10, 2017, 09:07:48 am
What I don't understand is what is so special at this program? If the connection wouldn't work, the program is useless. Every OS has included telnet (on Windows you have to activate telnet, but it is included), my mobile phone can do telnet. What's with Linux based systems without desktop? telnet can handle the scope without any desktop backgrounds.
telnet do the same as your program. Okay, I can't use a mouse, that's all.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fennec on January 10, 2017, 09:28:59 am
You're right, the program can do nothing better than Telnet. I have programmed the program for myself, and also made available to others. Sorry, I did not want to advertise, I deleted my post.

Peter

I wouldn't make you sick. I'm sorry.

Peters website (Swiss language)
http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/)

Screenshots
http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/screenshots.htm (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/screenshots.htm)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 10, 2017, 09:36:32 am
telnet do the same as your program. Okay, I can't use a mouse, that's all.

So... he added something extra?

You're right, the program can do nothing better than Telnet. I have programmed the program for myself, and also made available to others. Sorry, I did not want to advertise, I deleted my post.

 :(  Never apologize for stuff like that. Put it back!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on January 10, 2017, 10:52:31 am
Peters website (Swiss language)
http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/)
You mean German? (There is no "Swiss language" as such — though there are Swiss German and Romansh — and .at means Austria, which is German-speaking.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on January 10, 2017, 10:56:17 am
You're right, the program can do nothing better than Telnet. I have programmed the program for myself, and also made available to others. Sorry, I did not want to advertise, I deleted my post.

Peter

I wouldn't make you sick. I'm sorry.

Peters website (Swiss language)
http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/)

Screenshots
http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/screenshots.htm (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/screenshots.htm)

For my needs, Peter's screen copy program is perfect:
Many thanks for the great work, Peter!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on January 10, 2017, 11:00:25 am
telnet can handle the scope without any desktop backgrounds.
telnet do the same as your program.

Telnet can not do the same as a program. Telnet can not be used to transfer binary data. Some implementations of the Telnet protocol will silently drop some characters, like e.g. chr(0). It is so because of the RFC854 telnet protocol specification (see page 10). Also, with a program one can do automated tests or even implement an SCPI control automation (like a PID temperature loop for a soldering iron  :palm: https://rogeorge.wordpress.com/2016/09/23/zero-parts-thermostated-soldering-station/)

For SCPI commands sent manually, better use NetCat (AKA 'nc'). 'nc' is a standard network tool for *nix distros. On the contrary to Telnet, Netcat can open a TCP connection without filtering out any characters. 'nc' was ported for Windows too.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: g4wsz on January 12, 2017, 02:01:56 pm
I'm unable to access the "network settings" portion of the web interface on a ds1054z (04.04.SP1) The page prompts for credentials but the defaults (empty username, "111111" as password) don't work.

Interestingly enough it is possible to successfully change the password in a different part of the web interface (no username is required to do this) using "111111" as the old password. So the default password does seem to be valid. Any thoughts on this?

I mailed this question to Rigol support for my scope and received next answer:
  Could you try this user name / password with your device, please?
  username: test
  password.: 111111

  Please note: password / user name doesn't work on some units.
  If you have the same behavior this will be reworked with next firmware update (planned end of January 2017).


I hope this helps.

It's rigollan/111111 - I just grepped it out of the firmware strings and tried it on my scope.

I also have 04.04.SP1 (aka 04.04.01.01 ?) and cannot login to view/change Network Settings.  I too got told to try "test/111111" by Rigol Support and it didn't work.

I have just tried "rigollan/111111" which doesn't work for me unfortunately "smithnerd" - may I ask which version of firmware you are using and/or grepped to find that string?

As a really new newbie I can't even find the 04.04.SP1 firmware to download to grep: Rigol seem to have withdrawn it from the page often quoted as

 http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Pragmatically it is probably best to wait for the next firmware update; Rigol are saying that this is a bug (which mysteriously affects only some owners) and that the update will fix that bug.  Hopefully they will also tell us what the correct username is too!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hexreader on January 12, 2017, 02:31:54 pm
It's no good, I can't hold off from asking any longer....

I too have MSO1104Z 04.04.sp1 and password of 111111 is not recognised.

If I did ever gain a valid username and password, then what exciting new things will I be able to do please?

I suspect that I am missing nothing much, but worry that I may be missing out on something fantastic.

Please put my mind at rest ....   many thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on January 12, 2017, 04:41:41 pm
What are you folks talking about with passwords? I don't recall any password screen on my scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: spacesloth0x on January 12, 2017, 05:04:27 pm
Thanks smithnerd and stilter for the feedback, unfortunately neither usernames work.

@smithnerd, what firmware version did you check? Is it possible to just binwalk the file? If I remember correctly the 04.04 SP1 firmware was recalled, could it be possible that there are multiple versions of it?

@hexreader just tcp settings so nothing related to measurements
@metrologist authentication is required for network configuration on the web interface
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on January 12, 2017, 06:23:10 pm
You make it sound like this thing has a web UI, so I can just enter the IP of the scope and I will get a UI in my browser, like most ethernet devices...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on January 12, 2017, 08:48:18 pm
Hello,
... has a web UI, so I can just enter the IP of the scope and I will get a UI in my browser, ...
Yes, so it is!
You need Username and Password for the "Network Settings".

EDIT: With the Version 00.04.04.03.05: username: rigolan   password: 111111
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 12, 2017, 09:19:05 pm
... has a web UI, so I can just enter the IP of the scope and I will get a UI in my browser, ...
Yes

Didn't know that. I keep being surprised by the things it can do.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on January 12, 2017, 09:23:46 pm
Hello,
... has a web UI, so I can just enter the IP of the scope and I will get a UI in my browser, ...
Yes

Didn't know that.
Check it !
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on January 12, 2017, 10:11:51 pm
Oh, that kind of UI, not instrument UI. What would be the utility of it?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on January 13, 2017, 12:16:58 am
Oh, that kind of UI, not instrument UI. What would be the utility of it?

Not much. I'd prefer to switch this feature off, if I could.

IP settings snapshot attached for those who are curious.

This time I logged in with blah/111111 so it's not fussy (this particular scope is still running 04.03.02.03).

Has anybody tried an empty username and '111111'?

Code: [Select]
$ strings 4411/SparrowAPP.out | grep -C 3 "111111"

/lxi/identification/LXIIdentification.xsd
/sys/lxi_web.hex
rigollan
111111
CONFIG
%2x%2x%2x%2x%2x%2x
Exif/JPEG
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on January 13, 2017, 05:52:27 am
Oh, that kind of UI, not instrument UI. What would be the utility of it?

From my understanding, mostly because it's a request of the LXI standard. Without that web page, the instrument is not LXI certified.
I guess LXI specifications mandate a web interface so a human operator can find/set the network settings remotely, without physical access to the instrument, but I might be wrong.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on January 13, 2017, 10:21:51 am
Hello,
This time I logged in with blah/111111 so it's not fussy (this particular scope is still running 04.03.02.03).

Has anybody tried an empty username and '111111'?

Sorry, with Firmware Revision:    00.04.04.SP1
Username: blah
Password: 111111
does not work!

Empty username does not work.

EDIT: But with 00.04.04.03.05 is the right username: rigolan    password: 111111

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 1anX on January 17, 2017, 04:10:33 am
Just got a new DS1054Z delivered and have tested it and am pretty impressed. Its a big upgrade over my old Tektronics TDS 210!

The new scope came with the current Boot and Board V0.1.4 and Firmware V00.04.04.01.01 and the build date is Aug 23 2016.

I have followed the unlock code instructions and used the website hosted unlock app and also downloaded and ran the code from the website in Firefox browser. Both codes given for the unlock option of DSER are identical. I have tried 3 times to apply the unlock code without any success, all I get is a "Invalid Code" message.

Would really appreciate any insights into the mysteries of unlocking the scope!

I have read page 1 of this forum and followed the instructions as described. Is it possible that on my new scope the unlock codes are truly invalid?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daruosha on January 17, 2017, 04:45:45 am
You should remove dashes "-" from serial number and put in the keygen. That's a common mistake among new buyers.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on January 17, 2017, 04:52:50 am
If it's a DS model, not an MSO, then the decoder does work, even on the latest version. Check that you didn't include dashes, as Daruosha said, and that you don't have any typos.

Note that if you fail to enter a valid code too many times, then the scope will temporarily lock you out and entering any code, even a correct one, will fail. Unfortunately, the "temporary" period is 12 hours of the scope being on. Since the scope doesn't have a real-time clock, it must be left on for 12 hours to clear the lockout.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 1anX on January 17, 2017, 04:54:22 am
I read thru the forum and found a post that suggested all fields, (at least the first 2 anyway) should be cleared before entering the serial and options data. I did this and it all worked like a charm, but clearing out the options and serial characters is essential for it to work. Trap for newcomers like me!

Initially I just backspaced into the existing characters to erase them and typed in my data. It did not work for me until I highlighted the existing characters (the D... and the AAAA) and deleted them and then entered my data.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on January 17, 2017, 04:56:22 am
Glad you got it working. I never cleared those out when I used it, but it was some time ago. Enjoy your scope!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on January 17, 2017, 05:10:14 am
Thank you to everyone that has contributed to the issues and unlocking of the DS1054Z.  I ordered from TEquipment, and received mine today.  I just got it unlocked without any problems at all.  One thing that seems odd about this one, though, is The build date, calibration date, and their relation to the versions of the board and software.  maybe I'm seing it wrong, but it seems like the unit was calibrated 11 months after the manufacture date.  go figure.

Software (firmware) 00.04.03.02.03
board ver   0.1.4
boot ver   0.0.1.4
build date Sept 11 2015

The factory calibration page date  is July 11, 2016.



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 1anX on January 17, 2017, 05:34:47 am
Glad you got it working. I never cleared those out when I used it, but it was some time ago. Enjoy your scope!

It seems thats the usual result for most, (not clearing out) and it did generate code but the code was given "invalid code" msg on the scope.
I wonder if its simply a browser cache issue causing it?
Thanks all for your help and support!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on January 17, 2017, 07:27:10 am
[...]One thing that seems odd about this one, though, is The build date, calibration date, and their relation to the versions of the board and software.  maybe I'm seing it wrong, but it seems like the unit was calibrated 11 months after the manufacture date.  go figure.

Software (firmware) 00.04.03.02.03
board ver   0.1.4
boot ver   0.0.1.4
build date Sept 11 2015

The factory calibration page date  is July 11, 2016.

The "build date Sept 11 2015" is simply the build date of the firmware ("Software (firmware) 00.04.03.02.03").
So there is no reason to worry.

Have fun with your new toy!   :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 1anX on January 17, 2017, 09:44:15 pm
Some clones of the original (and now unavailable) Riglol website have a bug and produce the wrong activation code.

Attached is a DOS version of the Riglol software (all credits go to the authors). It will work in a CMD window even on Windows 10 64 bit, so no need to use Linux.

It will produce the correct code and I am posting it for future reference.

Regards

After having issues with the unlock code I got from the listed website I tried running riglol.exe in the windows command prompt and it gave the correct code straight up!

The program can be downloaded from the website if you scroll down to the bottom and download the raw code. If you go back to the above quoted reply there is a direct link to download the file.

Might be worth linking to this program on page 1 of this thread for the benefit of all?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on January 18, 2017, 01:49:44 am
Some clones of the original (and now unavailable) Riglol website have a bug and produce the wrong activation code.

Attached is a DOS version of the Riglol software (all credits go to the authors). It will work in a CMD window even on Windows 10 64 bit, so no need to use Linux.

It will produce the correct code and I am posting it for future reference.

Regards

After having issues with the unlock code I got from the listed website I tried running riglol.exe in the windows command prompt and it gave the correct code straight up!

The program can be downloaded from the website if you scroll down to the bottom and download the raw code. If you go back to the above quoted reply there is a direct link to download the file.

Might be worth linking to this program on page 1 of this thread for the benefit of all?
Well the thing is, the website isn't broken for everyone, it seems. I used the website just fine. (And since I don't run Windows, downloading an .exe isn't an option anyway.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on January 18, 2017, 07:53:09 am
Some clones of the original (and now unavailable) Riglol website have a bug and produce the wrong activation code.

Attached is a DOS version of the Riglol software (all credits go to the authors). It will work in a CMD window even on Windows 10 64 bit, so no need to use Linux.

It will produce the correct code and I am posting it for future reference.

Regards

After having issues with the unlock code I got from the listed website I tried running riglol.exe in the windows command prompt and it gave the correct code straight up!

The program can be downloaded from the website if you scroll down to the bottom and download the raw code. If you go back to the above quoted reply there is a direct link to download the file.

Might be worth linking to this program on page 1 of this thread for the benefit of all?
Well the thing is, the website isn't broken for everyone, it seems. I used the website just fine. (And since I don't run Windows, downloading an .exe isn't an option anyway.)

But you can allways use the source code of that .exe
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on January 19, 2017, 03:32:18 pm
If I were a programmer, perhaps. I am not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daruosha on January 19, 2017, 04:02:45 pm
If I were a programmer, perhaps. I am not.

If you're a linux user and desperately need Windows for any reason, you always have the virtualization option. Install a virtual machine and setup Windows inside it  do your thing and delete the VM (or keep it for next case).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on January 22, 2017, 02:42:23 pm
I already have a Windows VM on my Mac. (Not all electroncs nerds are Linux nerds, you know. ;)) But I hate having to use it if at all possible, since I dislike the Windows user experience (I'm a trained usability professional). And given that I recently decided to run Windows Update, and in doing so noticed I hadn't booted Windows in 18 months, there clearly isn't much that I've been unable to do with native apps. My point was simply that compiling from source is not something everyone is willing or able to do. I do wonder why the website occasionally spits out incorrect data, while working correctly for most people. I had no trouble using it to generate the unlock code for my scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: OE2WHP on January 23, 2017, 12:25:30 am
Maybe the algorithm is not 100% perfect or probably its a classic PEBKAC.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on January 23, 2017, 01:30:34 am
I do wonder why the website occasionally spits out incorrect data, while working correctly for most people. I had no trouble using it to generate the unlock code for my scope.

Bug? It would be interesting to know if the problems occur predominantly on a particular device, OS, browser, JavaScript engine, etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bnr247 on January 24, 2017, 11:27:11 am
Well guys,
 I just got my RMA replacement scope and it still has jitter but not nearly as bad as the last one. BUT this doesn't look right what do you guys think?
This is with a Probe Attached to the scope but nothing attached to it.

what does it show when you push the Auto buton?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Johnny Electron on February 11, 2017, 12:59:41 pm
Hi guys,

I'm seeing conflicting info on the latest firmware revision.   The latest Rigol wants to give me is 00.04.03.02.03 but my system screen has a later revision of 00.04.04.SP1.  Is there a later revision?  I apologize if this info is somewhere else but I can't seem to find it.  (The first page of this thread says there is a v00.04.04.01.01 (don't know if thats later than what i have or not) but the link it goes to only has 00.04.02.01.00 available.)

Any thanks would be appreciated.

John
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on February 11, 2017, 03:49:07 pm
The latest firmware can be downloaded from their official site at
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

The 00.04.04.xx.xx version was released by Rigol and then recalled because it didn't install properly and bricked some scopes.  However, they are shipping new scopes with the newer firmware. You just need to hold out for the next version they release. You already have the newest version for now.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 11, 2017, 03:55:54 pm
I'm seeing conflicting info on the latest firmware revision.   The latest Rigol wants to give me is 00.04.03.02.03 but my system screen has a later revision of 00.04.04.SP1.  Is there a later revision?  I apologize if this info is somewhere else but I can't seem to find it.  (The first page of this thread says there is a v00.04.04.01.01 (don't know if thats later than what i have or not) but the link it goes to only has 00.04.02.01.00 available.)

00.04.04.SP1 caused (very minor) problems on older hardware so they took it off the web site. They're still putting it on new units though.

We're expecting a new firmware any day now.

Remember: Don't fix it if it ain't broken. Any firmware update has a risk of going wrong. Only apply firmware updates if you really need to.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: duracell on February 12, 2017, 04:57:11 am
Should I buy DS1052E or DS1054Z ?
Price is almost the same.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on February 12, 2017, 05:11:31 am
Should I buy DS1052E or DS1054Z ?
Price is almost the same.

The 1054 has 4 channels and that's just a lot more useful than 2 channels.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: duracell on February 12, 2017, 05:21:17 am
Should I buy DS1052E or DS1054Z ?
Price is almost the same.

The 1054 has 4 channels and that's just a lot more useful than 2 channels.

1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on February 12, 2017, 05:38:49 am
1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//
FWIW, given the size of the DSO 1xxx user base, Rigol has been on top of solving issues.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on February 12, 2017, 05:39:20 am
1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//

The DS1054Z had many bugs. Rigol fixed many (most?) of them, which is why it's beneficial to buy something that has been on the market for a couple of years or more. We may find new bugs, but meanwhile we make use of the tool and it works for us.

If this scope will do what you need and is in your budget, worry less and make more stuff. :-+ If you have a higher budget, you might consider a higher-end scope if that will help you worry less. ^-^
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: duracell on February 12, 2017, 05:45:43 am
1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//

The DS1054Z had many bugs. Rigol fixed many (most?) of them, which is why it's beneficial to buy something that has been on the market for a couple of years or more. We may find new bugs, but meanwhile we make use of the tool and it works for us.

If this scope will do what you need and is in your budget, worry less and make more stuff. :-+ If you have a higher budget, you might consider a higher-end scope if that will help you worry less. ^-^

Thank you very much. So am not gonna make a mistake buying a 1054Z instead of 1052E ?
My budget is max 500$, so high end devices are for now out of question.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on February 12, 2017, 06:03:48 am
Thank you very much. So am not gonna make a mistake buying a 1054Z instead of 1052E ?
My budget is max 500$, so high end devices are for now out of question.

That would be difficult for me to say, since I don't know what you'll be using it for, what's important to you, etc. So, I'd recommend that you review the features of each to determine which one better fits your uses. Generally speaking, though, the 1054Z certainly delivers more for your money than the older, smaller screen, 2-channel 1052E.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on February 12, 2017, 06:34:32 am
Thank you very much. So am not gonna make a mistake buying a 1054Z instead of 1052E ?
My budget is max 500$, so high end devices are for now out of question.
The additional 2 channels are nice to have when you need them, as are the software features after unlocking it (i.e. decoding capabilities). Unlocking also doubles the memory IIRC.

Given your location, I'd suggest looking into Batterfly.com (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z) (~328EUR shipped; VAT not included). BTW, they're located in Italy. They also run specials (combo packages) that might be of interest.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on February 12, 2017, 01:27:26 pm
Remember: Don't fix it if it ain't broken. Any firmware update has a risk of going wrong. Only apply firmware updates if you really need to.

Wise advise (always is) but there is a catch 22 to it - which is that you may end up wasting time (or worse) chasing previously resolved issues - like the RMS bug. You can avoid this by updating.

The wise advise is to not be the first to update. Let others be the guinea pigs and update a firmware only after a week (or fortnight) have passed successfully. That will also let you see if indeed issues were fixed (or new ones created).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DG41WV on February 12, 2017, 02:39:59 pm
I recently bought a ds1054z and most of the time the trace disappears from the screen. Is this a known bug or have I got a defective unit? btw does Tequipment pay for shipping a defective unit back to them or do I have to pay for it?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on February 12, 2017, 03:49:05 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=292123;image)

Possible PEBCAK error. Probably no defective scope. Recommendation: RTFM.  :phew:

BTW: The scope reacts in this case when the trigger condition on channel 1 is matched (even when the channel 1 is deactivated). Then it shows the signal of channel 4.

Please look in your manual about:

Trigger- source (to a channel)
Trigger- modes: Auto, normal and single.

Manual DS1054Z Download as Pdf. (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on February 12, 2017, 05:15:23 pm
1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//

The DS1054Z had many bugs. Rigol fixed many (most?) of them, which is why it's beneficial to buy something that has been on the market for a couple of years or more. We may find new bugs, but meanwhile we make use of the tool and it works for us.

If this scope will do what you need and is in your budget, worry less and make more stuff. :-+ If you have a higher budget, you might consider a higher-end scope if that will help you worry less. ^-^

Thank you very much. So am not gonna make a mistake buying a 1054Z instead of 1052E ?
My budget is max 500$, so high end devices are for now out of question.

You won't be making a mistake with the 1054Z.  If it comes from current inventory, it will have the latest firmware 00.04.04.SP1.  To the best of my knowledge, all bugs have been eliminated EXCEPT for a spelling error "Pluses" where it should be "Pulses".  I can live with it...

I would suggest you read this thread only as far back as Nov 2016.  That was when the lastest firmware was released.  Issues with firmware older than that seem to have been fixed.  Who really cares about issues at the margins way back when the scope was first introduced?  They have been fixed.

There are alternatives, of course.  The thing is, they cost a lot more money.

As boring as it seems, do try to read the User Manual.  These is a lot of capability in the scope that you just won't find unless you read about it first.  It has a lot more capability than just displaying wiggly lines.

In fact, you can download and read the manual while you wait for your scope to arrive.  At least skim over it and see what it can do.  You can get down to button-pushing when the scope arrives.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: duracell on February 12, 2017, 06:19:19 pm
Quote
You won't be making a mistake with the 1054Z.  If it comes from current inventory, it will have the latest firmware 00.04.04.SP1.  To the best of my knowledge, all bugs have been eliminated EXCEPT for a spelling error "Pluses" where it should be "Pulses".  I can live with it...

I would suggest you read this thread only as far back as Nov 2016.  That was when the lastest firmware was released.  Issues with firmware older than that seem to have been fixed.  Who really cares about issues at the margins way back when the scope was first introduced?  They have been fixed.

There are alternatives, of course.  The thing is, they cost a lot more money.

As boring as it seems, do try to read the User Manual.  These is a lot of capability in the scope that you just won't find unless you read about it first.  It has a lot more capability than just displaying wiggly lines.
In fact, you can download and read the manual while you wait for your scope to arrive.  At least skim over it and see what it can do.  You can get down to button-pushing when the scope arrives.

Thank you very much. That's the kind of the info I've needed.  I was worried about many bug reports regarding this scope.
I will purchase one tomorrow.
Thanks again for your tips.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 12, 2017, 06:32:15 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=292123;image)

Possible PEBCAK error. Probably no defective scope. Recommendation: RTFM.  :phew:

BTW: The scope reacts in this case when the trigger condition on channel 1 is matched (even when the channel 1 is deactivated). Then it shows the signal of channel 4.

Please look in your manual about:

Trigger- source (to a channel)
Trigger- modes: Auto, normal and single.

Manual DS1054Z Download as Pdf. (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf)



Note that the scope is in "AUTO" trigger mode. It should be showing a trace on any active channel, regardless of whether it is triggered or not, regardless of whether a trigger condition is met on the Trigger channel or not.

I think we need a little more information, but at first glance there does seem to be something wrong (possibly in addition to PEBCAK.)

See here: (no inputs to any channels, but since scope is in AUTO trigger mode, the active CH4 shows a trace -- as expected. When scope is in Normal trigger mode, no trace appears since it is WAITing for a trigger event on the trigger channel.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on February 13, 2017, 01:33:48 am
Note that the scope is in "AUTO" trigger mode. It should be showing a trace on any active channel, regardless of whether it is triggered or not, regardless of whether a trigger condition is met on the Trigger channel or not.

I think we need a little more information, but at first glance there does seem to be something wrong (possibly in addition to PEBCAK.)

See here: (no inputs to any channels, but since scope is in AUTO trigger mode, the active CH4 shows a trace -- as expected. When scope is in Normal trigger mode, no trace appears since it is WAITing for a trigger event on the trigger channel.)
I've found that at certain timebases (relatively slow ones IIRC), AUTO trigger fails, as it oscillates between NORMAL and AUTO. Setting it manually to NORMAL gets a reliable trace.

But for sure you have to have a trigger channel active. (AUTO trigger only means that it chooses the trigger mode automatically, not the channel.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on February 13, 2017, 02:23:32 am
Sometimes if I think there is a problem with automatic triggering, I temporarily use the line trigger source to at least get a trace.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on February 13, 2017, 03:13:13 am
Note that the scope is in "AUTO" trigger mode. It should be showing a trace on any active channel, regardless of whether it is triggered or not, regardless of whether a trigger condition is met on the Trigger channel or not.

I think we need a little more information, but at first glance there does seem to be something wrong (possibly in addition to PEBCAK.)

See here: (no inputs to any channels, but since scope is in AUTO trigger mode, the active CH4 shows a trace -- as expected. When scope is in Normal trigger mode, no trace appears since it is WAITing for a trigger event on the trigger channel.)

You are correct.
Furthermore I have made a second false claim:"Channel 1 is deactivated."    :palm:
Nope...
Indeed: All four channels are activated. (Channel numbers lighten up in their colors instead of grey.)   |O

With this settings the oscilloscope should draw the trace.
I am not be able to reproduce the failure.   :-//

At this time (with the given informations) it seems to be really a faulty device.   :-BROKE

 :( :( :(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on February 13, 2017, 04:21:08 am
With this settings the oscilloscope should draw the trace.
I am not be able to reproduce the failure.   :-//
Unless the waveform DC offset placed the waveform off the display.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on February 13, 2017, 04:52:33 am
Oddly, the Tektronix DSO training material may provide the answer:  Use the Auto button!  Yup!  Right from the factories mouth (ok, text editor), use the Autoset button Step 3 of first project.  I assume Tek Autoset == Rigol Auto

http://www.tek.com/sites/tek.com/files/courseware/ST_Arduino_Labs_Combined.pdf (http://www.tek.com/sites/tek.com/files/courseware/ST_Arduino_Labs_Combined.pdf)

Then consider AC coupling and see if that doesn't work a little better.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on February 13, 2017, 04:58:45 am
Oddly, the Tektronix DSO training material may provide the answer:  Use the Auto button!  Yup!  Right from the factories mouth (ok, text editor), use the Autoset button Step 3 of first project.  I assume Tek Autoset == Rigol Auto

http://www.tek.com/sites/tek.com/files/courseware/ST_Arduino_Labs_Combined.pdf (http://www.tek.com/sites/tek.com/files/courseware/ST_Arduino_Labs_Combined.pdf)

Then consider AC coupling and see if that doesn't work a little better.
:)

A better one is to have some idea of the amplitude and frequency of a signal before you connect a scope to it.

Have no idea ?
Set the inputs and probes to 10:1 and use Autoset.  ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on February 13, 2017, 10:35:47 am
To the best of my knowledge, all bugs have been eliminated EXCEPT for a spelling error "Pluses" where it should be "Pulses".

Unfortunately, there are at least two more open bugs which can be considered not important if you decide not to connect the scope to a pc
but can be very important in case you do connect it to a pc:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1107838/#msg1107838 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1107838/#msg1107838)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1109064/#msg1109064 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1109064/#msg1109064)

Still, I believe the DS1054Z is a bargain for hobby use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 13, 2017, 11:33:03 am
1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//

And ... let's have a big round of applause for all the people who post endlessly about (mostly minor/unimportant) bugs in the DS1054Z. You've got people buying DS1102Es instead of DS1054Zs.  :palm:


a) For $400 the DS1054Z is a complete bargain, if you unlock all the optional features then you'll have to pay $1000+ to get something that's really better*.

b) The DS1102E is much older/outdated, it has a smaller screen, it only has two channels...

c) Rigol posts bug fixes. There's not much left to fix in the latest firmware and a special new firmware is due to arrive any day (In December Rigol said it would be "January/February").


(*) I'm talking in general terms. If you have a special need then there maybe something that does a particular thing better than a DS1054Z, eg. signal analysis/FFT - the DS1054Z isn't amazing at doing that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 13, 2017, 12:06:50 pm
With this settings the oscilloscope should draw the trace.
I am not be able to reproduce the failure.   :-//
Unless the waveform DC offset placed the waveform off the display.

No, in that case you should still see a "trace" but it would be pegged to the top or bottom of the trace display graticule.

See: Here is a 5 VDC applied to CH4, with nothing on CH1 and scope in Auto trigger mode. Note the blue trace at the top graticule line.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DG41WV on February 13, 2017, 12:15:02 pm
I recently bought a ds1054z and most of the time the trace disappears from the screen. Is this a known bug or have I got a defective unit? btw does Tequipment pay for shipping a defective unit back to them or do I have to pay for it?
I tested it further and it appears to be a fault in the device. the self cal doesn't even work(fails or hangs) and the problem with the trace disappearing(the waveform actually freezes and when I push the clear button it doesn't come back) happens most of the time when changing something like vertical scale, mem depth,etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 13, 2017, 12:23:09 pm
Oddly, the Tektronix DSO training material may provide the answer:  Use the Auto button!  Yup!  Right from the factories mouth (ok, text editor), use the Autoset button Step 3 of first project.  I assume Tek Autoset == Rigol Auto

http://www.tek.com/sites/tek.com/files/courseware/ST_Arduino_Labs_Combined.pdf (http://www.tek.com/sites/tek.com/files/courseware/ST_Arduino_Labs_Combined.pdf)

Then consider AC coupling and see if that doesn't work a little better.

The big "AUTO" button on the top right row of 4 buttons activates the Rigol Autoset feature. This is not the same thing as the "Auto" Trigger Mode, which is set in the Trigger area on the right side of the control panel (you have Auto, Normal, Single modes available). At the top left of the display area, just to the right of the yellow "RIGOL", one can see the Trigger state indicator, which will say "Auto" if Auto trigger mode is selected (the default) and will either say "WAIT" or "T'D" or "STOP" in other trigger modes. When the scope is in Auto Trigger Mode there should be a trace visible for any channel which is turned on (CH button LED lit) even if the signal's DC offset is offscreen (see above).
If the scope is in "Normal" trigger mode, or "Single", and no trigger event is detected on the selected Trigger channel, there may be no trace but the indicator will say "WAIT" in flashing green. If the indicator says "Auto" there should be a trace regardless of whether a trigger event is detected on the trigger channel.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 13, 2017, 12:27:40 pm
1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//

And ... let's have a big round of applause for all the people who post endlessly about (mostly minor/unimportant) bugs in the DS1054Z. You've got people buying DS1102Es instead of DS1054Zs.  :palm:


Please post links to where "people" have bought 1102E instead of 1054z due to "minor/unimportant" bugs that have been reported here.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on February 13, 2017, 04:27:30 pm
1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//

And ... let's have a big round of applause for all the people who post endlessly about (mostly minor/unimportant) bugs in the DS1054Z. You've got people buying DS1102Es instead of DS1054Zs.  :palm:


Please post links to where "people" have bought 1102E instead of 1054z due to "minor/unimportant" bugs that have been reported here.

One of the posters was considering the E just because of reading all the Z bugs, just a few posts up...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on February 13, 2017, 04:30:07 pm
The big "AUTO" button... If the indicator says "Auto" there should be a trace regardless of whether a trigger event is detected on the trigger channel.

I noticed the Auto indicator is not lit up. Is there some way to get the scope trigger to be in AUTO mode, but not active? I sort of recall something like that after pushing the single auto buttons, but I do not recall if it said stop or wait... Anyway, AUTO was not lit...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on February 13, 2017, 05:30:52 pm
The big "AUTO" button... If the indicator says "Auto" there should be a trace regardless of whether a trigger event is detected on the trigger channel.

I noticed the Auto indicator is not lit up. Is there some way to get the scope trigger to be in AUTO mode, but not active? I sort of recall something like that after pushing the single auto buttons, but I do not recall if it said stop or wait... Anyway, AUTO was not lit...

Depress the trigger Mode button?  You should step through Auto-Normal-Single
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 13, 2017, 05:33:30 pm
1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//

And ... let's have a big round of applause for all the people who post endlessly about (mostly minor/unimportant) bugs in the DS1054Z. You've got people buying DS1102Es instead of DS1054Zs.  :palm:


Please post links to where "people" have bought 1102E instead of 1054z due to "minor/unimportant" bugs that have been reported here.

One of the posters was considering the E just because of reading all the Z bugs, just a few posts up...

That post refers to the DS1052E, not the DS1102E. But the point still stands: Please post links to where "people" have actually purchased either of those two channel scopes _instead_ of a DS1054Z  due to the "minor/unimportant" bugs that have been reported here.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 13, 2017, 05:45:26 pm
That post refers to the DS1052E, not the DS1102E. But the point still stands: Please post links to where "people" have actually purchased either of those two channel scopes _instead_ of a DS1054Z  due to the "minor/unimportant" bugs that have been reported here.

And if we can't, you 'win'?  :popcorn:

We've got one guy debating whether to get a DS1052E instead of a DS1054Z because of what he's been reading. I've bene called all sorts of names for defending Rigol here but this is 100% proof of the real reason why I do it.

a) The bugs are minor, most of them took about six months before anybody even noticed them.
b) The difference between a hobbyist owning a DS1054Z and not owning one is about ten parsecs wide.
c) The difference between owning a DS1054Z and owning an equivalent-feature 'scope with no spelling mistakes in the menus is about this ->.<- much... but you have to pay two or three times the price for that.  :-//




Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 13, 2017, 06:11:07 pm
The big "AUTO" button... If the indicator says "Auto" there should be a trace regardless of whether a trigger event is detected on the trigger channel.

I noticed the Auto indicator is not lit up. Is there some way to get the scope trigger to be in AUTO mode, but not active? I sort of recall something like that after pushing the single auto buttons, but I do not recall if it said stop or wait... Anyway, AUTO was not lit...

When the scope is in "AUTO" trigger mode, the mode indicator at top left flashes. Depending on when the scope captures the screen image, you may see the indicator bright green (lit up), or dull green (dark). Regardless of whether a trigger event is detected on the trigger channel, when the scope is in Auto trigger mode you should see traces on all channels that are currently turned on.
That post refers to the DS1052E, not the DS1102E. But the point still stands: Please post links to where "people" have actually purchased either of those two channel scopes _instead_ of a DS1054Z  due to the "minor/unimportant" bugs that have been reported here.

And if we can't, you 'win'?  :popcorn:

If you can't,  then you are posting "alternative facts". If that's OK in your world ... sad.

Quote

We've got one guy debating whether to get a DS1052E instead of a DS1054Z because of what he's been reading. I've bene called all sorts of names for defending Rigol here but this is 100% proof of the real reason why I do it.

a) The bugs are minor, most of them took about six months before anybody even noticed them.

Wrong again,  several times over.  More alternative facts?

Quote

b) The difference between a hobbyist owning a DS1054Z and not owning one is about ten parsecs wide.
c) The difference between owning a DS1054Z and owning an equivalent-feature 'scope with no spelling mistakes in the menus is about this ->.<- much... but you have to pay two or three times the price for that.  :-//






Any consumer item at whatever price point should do what it says it will do in the specifications. Perhaps you yourself never encountered the bugs because all you need a scope to do is to show some wiggly colored lines. Other users may expect more -- like they might expect the scope to do what it is supposed to do, without freezing, giving incorrect RMS measurements, having all measurements stop working, miscounting "pluses" or any of the other "minor bugs" that have been noted over time.
"It's only 400 dollars, what do you expect" gets kind of old after a while.


And I'm still waiting to see some evidence for your claim that "people" have bought 1102E instead of 1054z due to the discussions about bugs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on February 13, 2017, 06:16:54 pm
1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//

And ... let's have a big round of applause for all the people who post endlessly about (mostly minor/unimportant) bugs in the DS1054Z. You've got people buying DS1102Es instead of DS1054Zs.  :palm:


Please post links to where "people" have bought 1102E instead of 1054z due to "minor/unimportant" bugs that have been reported here.

One of the posters was considering the E just because of reading all the Z bugs, just a few posts up...

That post refers to the DS1052E, not the DS1102E. But the point still stands: Please post links to where "people" have actually purchased either of those two channel scopes _instead_ of a DS1054Z  due to the "minor/unimportant" bugs that have been reported here.

Well, I'm confused on which post is "that" post. Following the discussion, "that" post would be the one to which I'm referring, here:

Should I buy DS1052E or DS1054Z ?
Price is almost the same.

He is asking about the DS1052E, which I referred to as the E model.

1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//

Seems like he is concerned because of what he has been reading here, but we seem to be correcting the issue, see:

Thank you very much. So am not gonna make a mistake buying a 1054Z instead of 1052E ?
My budget is max 500$, so high end devices are for now out of question.

Note that this poster posted in another topic the same concerns. More bugs were presented, and he was chastised for double posting.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on February 13, 2017, 07:21:40 pm


Any consumer item at whatever price point should do what it says it will do in the specifications. Perhaps you yourself never encountered the bugs because all you need a scope to do is to show some wiggly colored lines. Other users may expect more -- like they might expect the scope to do what it is supposed to do, without freezing, giving incorrect RMS measurements, having all measurements stop working, miscounting "pluses" or any of the other "minor bugs" that have been noted over time.
"It's only 400 dollars, what do you expect" gets kind of old after a while.


As of 00.04.04.SP1 firmware are any of these bugs current? I know about the spelling error but I thought we had squared away all of the other issues a long tiime back.  Or, put another way, I don't see any of them.  There is no question that there have been bugs over the 2 year history of the scope but a lot of things have changed as of Nov 2016.

That's why this thread needs to be read from Nov 2016 forward.  Everything before that time is ancient history!

Other then Tektronix or Keysight, has ANY scope manufacturer ever released a 'prefect' scope?  Or, again put another way, when did programmers all of a sudden get things right?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kcbrown on February 13, 2017, 07:39:35 pm
b) The difference between a hobbyist owning a DS1054Z and not owning one is about ten parsecs wide.
c) The difference between owning a DS1054Z and owning an equivalent-feature 'scope with no spelling mistakes in the menus is about this ->.<- much... but you have to pay two or three times the price for that.  :-//

Any consumer item at whatever price point should do what it says it will do in the specifications.

True as that may be, that's independent of the value proposition.

The value proposition is determined by what the consumer item will do properly, intersected with what the buyer needs it to do, versus its price.

Even if the DS1054Z doesn't meet all of its specifications, it is still a better value proposition than anything else out there as long as everything the specific buyer needs it to do intersects with that which it does properly.

Quote
Perhaps you yourself never encountered the bugs because all you need a scope to do is to show some wiggly colored lines. Other users may expect more -- like they might expect the scope to do what it is supposed to do, without freezing,

Do units with the latest firmware freeze?


Quote
giving incorrect RMS measurements, having all measurements stop working, miscounting "pluses" or any of the other "minor bugs" that have been noted over time.

That a bug has been noted does not mean it hasn't been fixed.  Are any of the bugs you cite here still in existence in the latest firmware, save for the spelling error (to call a spelling error a "bug", where one can easily infer the intended word, is laughable; miscounting, on the other hand, is quite obviously a bug)?

The bug history of the model is logically irrelevant to a prospective buyer.  What matters is the set of bugs that remain outstanding, and whether or not they intersect with the buyer's use cases.


Quote
"It's only 400 dollars, what do you expect" gets kind of old after a while.

It may get old, but that doesn't mean it gets any less valid, particularly when the remaining bugs are but a subset of the original list.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gojimmypi on February 14, 2017, 02:40:27 am
wow, 134 pages of posts to a topic started almost 3 years ago. impressive.

with a wide range of opinions and perspectives, I thought I'd add mine. :)

The DS1054 is a low end oscilloscope. There's no denying that. I mean, seriously: $399?!

My degree is in electronic engineering from a few decades back. Needless to say, the magic of the DS1054 back then would have cost probably tens of thousands of dollars. Times change, eh?

I came to the eevblog some time ago looking for a good hobbyist oscilloscope. These days I work as a pure software engineer, but my heart is still in electronics. I was really happy to find Dave's review of the DS1054. That sealed my decision on the DS1054.

There are certainly many better, more feature packed, higher bandwidth, better this-n-that oscilloscopes. But for me, for hacking on the weekend - for the price - I really like my DS1054.

If you've come here with a similar situation, I say go for the DS1054. If you are a professional and the company has an unlimited budget, then buy something better, for sure.

But for a "basic" oscilloscope (I mean seriously, I started out with a dual trace analog tek many years ago that worked just fine, this one is awesome)....  the DS1054 can't be beat, yes, even with the occasional quirks.

The only thing I don't like? The fan. They could have spent just a few bucks more and included a silent fan. Feature requests? Well, the screen is somewhat small. An HDMI connector would be really awesome.

Just another opinion fwiw. :)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 14, 2017, 06:22:54 am
Any consumer item at whatever price point should do what it says it will do in the specifications.

So... if you bought a car that cost half as much as rivals but only went 198km/h instead of the advertised 200km/h you'd take it back?

You wouldn't be able to see any value in it at all? You wouldn't be able to understand people recommending it to others?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 14, 2017, 06:32:34 am
wow, 134 pages of posts to a topic started almost 3 years ago. impressive.

Yep, and at least half of it is this same old crap repeated over and over.

People who can't see that $400 is amazing value for money* vs. those who can.

(*yes, even with 'quirks')

You demand perfection? Feel free to spend more and more money (in an endless quest - none are perfect).

You want to see 4 channels of 100MHz wiggly lines on screen at a bargain price? Get a DS1054Z - it does that brilliantly!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 14, 2017, 06:50:06 am
Other then Tektronix or Keysight, has ANY scope manufacturer ever released a 'prefect' scope?  Or, again put another way, when did programmers all of a sudden get things right?

Nope.

eg. We're always being told by the GW-Instek boys that their 'scopes are perfect, but ... the GW-Instek bug list doesn't really read much better than Rigol's.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-review-of-the-gwinstek-1054b/msg1129541/#msg1129541 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-review-of-the-gwinstek-1054b/msg1129541/#msg1129541)

Code: [Select]
* Fixed the system crash randomly which caused by the ¡§Advance Math¡¨ function
* Fixed the AD malfunction under certain circumstances
...
* Added USBDelay command in order to solve the USB data leaks for WIN10.
* Fixed the ext trigger of roll mode which may cause the system crash.
* Fixed the zoom state malfunction for horizontal position command.
* Changed the value range of trigger hold off command: the minimum value changed to 4ns from 10ns.

If that was Rigol they'd be like: "That's garbage!", but it's not, it's GW-Instek!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: newbrain on February 14, 2017, 08:45:19 am
wow, 134 pages of posts to a topic started almost 3 years ago. impressive.

with a wide range of opinions and perspectives, I thought I'd add mine. :)

The DS1054 is a low end oscilloscope. There's no denying that. I mean, seriously: $399?!

My degree is in electronic engineering from a few decades back. Needless to say, the magic of the DS1054 back then would have cost probably tens of thousands of dollars. Times change, eh?

I came to the eevblog some time ago looking for a good hobbyist oscilloscope. These days I work as a pure software engineer, but my heart is still in electronics. I was really happy to find Dave's review of the DS1054. That sealed my decision on the DS1054.

There are certainly many better, more feature packed, higher bandwidth, better this-n-that oscilloscopes. But for me, for hacking on the weekend - for the price - I really like my DS1054.

If you've come here with a similar situation, I say go for the DS1054. If you are a professional and the company has an unlimited budget, then buy something better, for sure.

But for a "basic" oscilloscope (I mean seriously, I started out with a dual trace analog tek many years ago that worked just fine, this one is awesome)....  the DS1054 can't be beat, yes, even with the occasional quirks.

The only thing I don't like? The fan. They could have spent just a few bucks more and included a silent fan. Feature requests? Well, the screen is somewhat small. An HDMI connector would be really awesome.

Just another opinion fwiw. :)
Change "gojimmypi" to "newbrain", "dual trace analog tek" to Fairchild 304-A, and I could have written this word by word.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: duracell on February 14, 2017, 11:30:14 am
1054Z is also faster and has more memory, but I am worried about the software bugs with 1054Z.  :-//

And ... let's have a big round of applause for all the people who post endlessly about (mostly minor/unimportant) bugs in the DS1054Z. You've got people buying DS1102Es instead of DS1054Zs.  :palm:



Please post links to where "people" have bought 1102E instead of 1054z due to "minor/unimportant" bugs that have been reported here.

One of the posters was considering the E just because of reading all the Z bugs, just a few posts up...

that was me asking about 1054Z bugs and if the 1052E would be an alternative.
I was informed that most bugs are fixed, and that 1054Z is much better scope.
So I purchased 2 days ago a brand new DS1054Z  :scared:

So in the end, all good.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: duracell on February 14, 2017, 11:32:35 am
sorry if I caused any trouble with my question  ^-^
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 14, 2017, 02:30:42 pm
sorry if I caused any trouble with my question  ^-^

No trouble at all.  :-+

This is just business as usual around here.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on February 14, 2017, 05:39:40 pm
Any consumer item at whatever price point should do what it says it will do in the specifications.

So... if you bought a car that cost half as much as rivals but only went 198km/h instead of the advertised 200km/h you'd take it back?

You wouldn't be able to see any value in it at all? You wouldn't be able to understand people recommending it to others?

Well, I think we are not discussing performance issues as much as pure functionality. It's more like:

- the speedometer is telling you 200km/h but your actual is different.
- the climate control does not control to the exact temperature you've set, maybe it's even 5C off.
- the sat radio is not getting reception of a few stations because of a programming bug.

This is common on cars, but are those valid reasons to negate the value of the entire thing.

Should I be able to get a refund for my MS Windows 10 OS because it did not support my old printer like the MS site said it should? Is that false advertising, etc.?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 14, 2017, 06:12:15 pm
This is common on cars, but are those valid reasons to negate the value of the entire thing.

The question is: Is there $400+ of value in a Rigol DS1054Z in the current market?

IMHO the answer is definitely "yes" (really it's more like $800+ if we compare the competition).

nb. Yes, there's valid reasons for buying something like a GW-Instek 1054B instead, eg. you're happy with half the bandwidth and less memory, you won't ever need serial decoders, you'd prefer a better FFT instead.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on February 14, 2017, 08:52:33 pm
Following the recent discussions in this thread I plan to add the following text to the FAQ section in the first post:

Quote
Some prospective buyers of the DS1054Z are concerned about software bugs. These have been extensively documented due to the instrument's huge popularity, but at the time of writing (February 2017) most have been resolved by firmware updates. There are likely to be a number of bugs with most newly launched budget oscilloscopes, but these typically have less visibility due to much lower sales volumes.

Unless you have specific requirements not met by this model, it is still the default recommendation in its price range.

Comments and suggestions for additions or amendments to this or other items are welcome as ever.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on February 14, 2017, 11:01:03 pm
Hi Rolycat,

Thanks for updating the OP. Consider how many pages of posts there are, it may be helpful to have a link for newcomers to the thread to skip to discussions that began after the most recent firmware update. Jumping to the following post may be a good point since it answers questions about that update:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1101386/#msg1101386 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1101386/#msg1101386)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on February 15, 2017, 07:17:21 pm
Hi bitseeker,

getting a better entry point is a very good idea. While crawling the forum and searching for firmware related information to the DS1000Z series this was the right pointer for me.

Kind regards,
Frederik

_now proud owner of a new hacktivated DS1054Z
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: asliyucegsm on February 17, 2017, 08:32:47 pm
my friend
How do i set the oscilloscope settings i want to measure some signals in notebook repair with my rigol ds1054z oscilloscope
SPROM_DOUT
SPROM_CLK
Rx and tx signals
thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on February 17, 2017, 09:20:19 pm
Hello asliyucegsm,

you might want to open an seperate thread for your question and be a bit more specific about what exactly you want to do, over in the repair section (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/), or the beginners section (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/).
If you are looking for some pointers to decoding serial communication via your scope, head over to Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ds1000z+serial+decode) for getting started.

Kind regards,
Frederik
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Villain on March 01, 2017, 01:09:13 pm
is it still hackable with latest firmware? and the dp832 power supply too? great if someone knows this because i think of buying some new lab equip.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 01, 2017, 01:25:43 pm
is it still hackable with latest firmware?

Yes.

and the dp832 power supply too?

Don't know.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 1anX on March 01, 2017, 09:54:21 pm
is it still hackable with latest firmware? and the dp832 power supply too? great if someone knows this because i think of buying some new lab equip.

Yes to both!
Recently did the same thing and bought both, have latest firmware installed, all good.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Kenise on March 02, 2017, 08:52:56 am
This is a Newbie's thanks to all posts, good and bad, here and a special shout to Dave for getting me started.  EE is a new hobby this past year, retired young and need something to do.  Bought an old analog to learn a bit.  Decided to buy a DS and spent a month comparing all the options from PC Hantek and up, it was a wonderful month.  The 1054Z seems like I traded in my Chevy PU for the NCC-1701-D.

The only question I've searched and can not find.  Has anyone used DSER hack and needed warranty work done?  Did Rigol honor the warranty?

Kenise
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sainter on March 02, 2017, 08:59:35 am
If the unit still works, you can always delete installed keys.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 02, 2017, 11:34:30 am
The only question I've searched and can not find.  Has anyone used DSER hack and needed warranty work done?  Did Rigol honor the warranty?

The options can be removed. I don't remember the command offhand but it's in this thread many times.

If you ever need it, just ask here...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on March 02, 2017, 11:52:52 am
The only question I've searched and can not find.  Has anyone used DSER hack and needed warranty work done?  Did Rigol honor the warranty?

The options can be removed. I don't remember the command offhand but it's in this thread many times.

If you ever need it, just ask here...

The command is:

:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

But you shouldn't need to ask:

alsetalokin4017 has supplied clear instructions on how to apply this and other commands using telnet, and I have provided a link to them in the FAQ section of the first post of this thread.

As a partial answer to the original question, I don't believe there has ever been a documented instance of Rigol refusing to honour the warranty on a hacked 'scope, although it is obviously best to revert any hacks before returning it, assuming it is possible.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on March 02, 2017, 11:53:54 am
Using LAN connection:

Open a telnet connection to your scope, in a terminal enter:

Code: [Select]
$ telnet 192.168.1.15 5555(replace the ip address with the one of your scope)

enter the following command:

Code: [Select]
:SYST:OPT:UNINST
Or using USB connection, enter the following command in a terminal:

Code: [Select]
$ echo ':SYST:OPT:UNINST' > /dev/usbtmc0
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 02, 2017, 12:08:35 pm
As a partial answer to the original question, I don't believe there has ever been a documented instance of Rigol refusing to honour the warranty on a hacked 'scope,

It's certainly never been reported here

(and I'm sure there'll be a big fuss here if it ever happens)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daruosha on March 06, 2017, 01:18:46 pm
It seems Rigol has given up on updates and bug fixes. We were promised to get the new update by end of January. Anyone knows about any upcoming news?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on March 06, 2017, 02:13:31 pm
It seems Rigol has given up on updates and bug fixes.

No, there was chinese new year in february.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 06, 2017, 02:19:24 pm
We were promised to get the new update by end of January.

It was actually "January/February".

But as noted: It'll be March if New Year kicks in before they release it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SimonD on March 06, 2017, 03:42:44 pm
Until now they have a new version in software section. Ultra Scope Software_00.01.01.07

http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/2 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/2)

Probably they have fix some problems and now works ok with 1054z instead the problematic previous version !
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 06, 2017, 06:18:52 pm
It seems Rigol has given up on updates and bug fixes. We were promised to get the new update by end of January. Anyone knows about any upcoming news?

Better late than (more) buggy.  :P
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daruosha on March 06, 2017, 07:32:02 pm
Well, right. Let's hope for good.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: morind79 on March 08, 2017, 01:48:43 pm
Hi all, I just entered to the family of DS1054Z !

I just received it today and after looking at the system info I see I have board revision 0.1.4 with software version 00.04.03.SP2
I tried to find the firmware version history but I saw nothing.

Should I upgrade to the newest firmware (I saw people speaking about SP4) ?
thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on March 08, 2017, 02:42:33 pm
Hello morind79,

my DS1054z has the same board version and was shipped with 00.04.03.SP2. There is a 00.04.04.SP1 to be found here (http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160719/DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar).
I could install it without problems. This Version got pulled from the Rigol site, because some older boards had issues (possible bricking).

One of the major updates wit 04.04.SP1 is the full-screen option in X-Y mode.

Release notes:
Code: [Select]
v00.04.04.00.07  2016/07/19
     - Added the full-screen display in the XY mode
     - Modified the Trace data of average sample mode
     - Fixed the bug of system halted for wave persistance in the Zoom mode
     - Fixed bugs about Measure

But there »should« be a new firmware coming in the next time.

Hacktivation with Riglol still valid in 04.04 (though I used Riglol on 04.03 and then upgraded to 04.04).

Have fun with your new scope!
Frederik
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Stonemull on March 09, 2017, 06:24:51 am
Picked up my first Rigol last week, 0.1.4 board with 4.04.04SP1

It found it can't decode a longer 8n1 RS232 115.2k baud packet without incorrectly setting the data length to 7 bits.

I asked on reddit and the 4.02 software has no such  issues it seems. The baud rate is set correctly, the probe is compensated correctly despite the images. This is an FTDI module with a fairly long USB cable, packet sent using realterm. After a few more experiments it seems it is the sample rate the scope is using.
I can for instance decode 100Kbaud, 200Kbaud or even 400Kbaud. However 115200 is nogo, 11520 is nogo and even 1152 baud is no go.

Images at

http://imgur.com/a/e3tUG (http://imgur.com/a/e3tUG)

Is this a known bug or a bug list I can add this to, I would like to use 115k as that is my most common debugging speed.










Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on March 09, 2017, 09:34:12 am
It found it can't decode a longer 8n1 RS232 115.2k baud packet without incorrectly setting the data length to 7 bits.

Is this a known bug or a bug list I can add this to, I would like to use 115k as that is my most common debugging speed.

Works fine here. Keep in mind that:

A. The scope does the decoding in software (not in hardware!) and uses the display memory, not the internal memory of 12 (or 24) Msamples.

B. The number of samples in the display memory is 1200. So, if you want visualize ten characters, then there are roughly 12 samples per databit available.

C. The trace, visible on the screen must start at a point before the startbit of a character and after the stopbit of a previous character.
   Violating this rule causes the decoding to produce garbage.
   
If you have a packet/frame of multiple characters, zoom in in such a way that there are no more than four characters visible (and obey point C above).

If you have any doubts, double check with DSRemote which can do the RS-232 decoding on your pc using the full memory of 12 (or 24) Ms.
Select the Wave Inspector option in DSRemote. That way you don't need to obey point C above and scrolling and zoom in/out goes much faster.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Stonemull on March 09, 2017, 12:45:19 pm
Yeh, I was aware it had limitations and used the screen data, I just found it odd that it appears older versions of the firmware seem to have no issues, I googled around and did not find much in the way of suggestions for use.
I only came across the issue as I had a benched GPS DJI serial output module and wondered what the baud rate was, then I figured I might as well use the scope to have a quick look at the data since it was already connected. 12 bits samples per data bit should be more than enough, even 1 should be sufficient in reality, a PIC uses 3 and a voting system.
Personally I think the sample rate is aliasing with the bit rate.

I will just stick with plugging serial into a USB-serial I think :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rondlh on March 11, 2017, 06:17:29 am
Where can I find the faq of th Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 11, 2017, 07:00:48 am
Where can I find the faq of th Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope?

The very first post of this long thread is a good starting point. It gives a good overview, and links to a number of detailed discussions. The original poster, rolycat, has updated this post regularly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rondlh on March 11, 2017, 08:12:45 am
Thanks for the reply, right on the first post I found the comment that there should be a FAQ, but I cannot find the link. There are many links there, but I didn't find a link pointing to the FAQ.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 11, 2017, 08:19:53 am
Thanks for the reply, right on the first post I found the comment that there should be a FAQ, but I cannot find the link. There are many links there, but I didn't find a link pointing to the FAQ.

The FAQ section mentioned in that post refers to the subsequent paragraphs, right below the red headline. They are not "frequently asked questions", actually, but rather "frequently looked-for answers".  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rondlh on March 15, 2017, 12:14:17 pm
Oh I get it, right under my nose, just not in the shape I expected it to be, thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: k8943 on March 23, 2017, 07:55:50 am
Been using for a couple of days and delighted.

One thing haven't figured out.

When looking at, for example, the step pulses to a stepper motor driver which are 1-2us duration with intervals of sometimes a 400-500us.... well the pulses are next to impossible to see on the screen (unless you zoom in really close). In this situation it's nice to see a number of pulses and watch how the spacing between them varies.

Reason being is that the rise and fall trace of the square pulse is very very very faint and the top of the pulse is vanishingly small.

All of this is even worse if you happen to be on Ch3 or Ch 4 (the colour).

Apart from turning up the brightness to Max, anyone got any suggestions for making such pulses show up more clearly???

(If I hadn't noticed the trigger icon flashing would have thought there was nothing happening on the channel at all. There was never a problem on my excellent lab-nation USB scope which just makes everything bright!!).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 23, 2017, 08:39:30 am
Hmmm... yes, that's a difficult one. But if I turn my Intensity up fairly high I can see what's happening well enough, at least on CH3.

(By the way... referring to another thread... here's an ideal situation for the old DP101 pulse generator ! My ElCheepo DDS FG can't do duty cycles that small, but it's no problem for the DP101.)

Trigger icon flashing? What? Not on my "simulation" using the pulse generator. If the trigger is properly set and the signal is steady the Trigger indicator should remain on steadily, I think.

EDIT: It doesn't look too bad on CH4 either. Maybe I'm not understanding your problem.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 23, 2017, 10:09:10 am
Apart from turning up the brightness to Max, anyone got any suggestions for making such pulses show up more clearly???

Turn up the persistence as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 23, 2017, 10:32:11 am
If the signal is stable, I see no effect of more and more persistence time until "infinite" persistence is selected, at which point the pulses are slightly brighter. However, if the signal is varying in pulse width and/or frequency, interesting effects are obtained with increasing persistence. Does this make the signal easier to read?

Effect of slightly varying frequency with persistence set to 10s:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on March 23, 2017, 10:51:35 am
peak detect might be of help too
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 23, 2017, 12:54:27 pm
Peak Detect makes no difference that I can see. However, setting Mem Depth to 12k instead of Auto does make the pulses slightly brighter. And turning the Grid Brightness down improves the contrast so the pulses stand out better.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: k8943 on March 23, 2017, 08:10:40 pm
Thanks guys.

Hadn't seen that it's possible to dim the grid without turning it off. Nice.

I think it would help a lot if I could turn down the room brightness as well ;)

btw. what principles does the scope follow when AUTO setting memory depth ?

Is it worth, on average, leaving it on a manual setting?

ps alsetalokin4017 in your first post certain screenshots channel 4 appears at two levels of time scale on the same screen. How does one achieve that?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on March 23, 2017, 09:09:19 pm
You gotta press those knobs!  ;)

BTW, regarding brightness, I have the opposite problem.
Anyone knows if it is possible to turn down screen brightness as a whole?
Not just the traces or grid - the whole thing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on March 23, 2017, 09:32:22 pm
Gray filter?  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 24, 2017, 06:36:39 am
Thanks guys.

Hadn't seen that it's possible to dim the grid without turning it off. Nice.

I think it would help a lot if I could turn down the room brightness as well ;)

btw. what principles does the scope follow when AUTO setting memory depth ?

Is it worth, on average, leaving it on a manual setting?

ps alsetalokin4017 in your first post certain screenshots channel 4 appears at two levels of time scale on the same screen. How does one achieve that?

Yes, there are two ways to enter the "zoom" mode. You can press the Horizontal Scale knob like a button to enter/leave the zoom mode, or you can press the Horizontal "menu" button and then select "Delayed" > ON. For some reason Rigol calls this "zoom" mode "Delayed", which seems very strange to me. Once in this mode you can of course move the zoom "window" around with the Horizontal Position control -- but you might be surprised at which direction the trace moves when you turn the knob.

I have noticed with the latest firmware that a very quick press of the Horizontal knob sometimes does nothing. You have to slow down, press and hold the knob for a fraction of a second to get it to work.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 24, 2017, 07:31:51 am
As far as using a manual Mem Depth setting as opposed to Auto... there is a complex interaction between the timebase setting, the memory depth, the sample rate, the number of channels in use, and the relationship between the total memory buffer size and the screen display area. You can explore this for yourself by setting the Display Type to "Dots" and varying the Mem Depth and horizontal scale settings, and STOPping the scope each time so you can see the Dots easily. The scope's Sample Rate and the Memory Depth it is using are always displayed at top left next to the "H xxx" timebase setting indicator. The top center wiggly bargraph thing represents the total memory buffer size, and shows the screen display area as a portion of the total buffer. Watch how this bargraph changes as you set different Memory Depths. With the scope stopped, you can use the horizontal position control to scroll left and right to see where the memory ends, for each setting of Mem Depth. (You can only change Mem Depth when the scope is running.)

For example (note carefully the wiggly bargraph display at top, see how it represents the screen area, the buffer size, and how much of the buffer is displayed in the screen area):

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 24, 2017, 07:48:59 am
Also, you can get stuff like this happening. Both screenshots below are using the exact same input signal, the only difference is the Mem Depth, all other scope settings are the same.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 24, 2017, 09:17:32 am
btw. what principles does the scope follow when AUTO setting memory depth ?

Is it worth, on average, leaving it on a manual setting?

I vote 'no'.

You'd have to set it almost every time you use the horizontal knob.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on March 24, 2017, 11:00:09 am
i'd say no.
the scope will always try to maximize wfm/s.. leaving in "auto" means better chance to catch the event. once you have found a way to trigger on it, set the timebase/amount of memory accordingly so you can trigger on the glitch AND have a good look at before/after
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: k8943 on March 24, 2017, 07:49:52 pm
Brightness effect noted (!!) the pulse width distortion is nuts. Would never have figured that one out. Thanks.

OK I see there's a clear consensus to play with mem depth after everything else is right. One of the reasons I asked was that so far the scope seems to systematically use a mem depth setting that is VERY low compared to its capacity. Even accounting for numbers of channels and so forth. That seemed strange.

Will experiment more.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on March 24, 2017, 10:37:00 pm
I noticed the low memory depth too and figured they were making a trade-off with some other performance attribute. wfs seems likely.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tcurdt on March 25, 2017, 12:06:13 am
Just received my DS1054Z. So far I am somewhat happy with it - but some of the UI I just don't get.
Right now I am struggling with the Auto Measurement Items.

I press a button and the item appears - but how do I make it disappear again?
The manual only talks about "activating" them.
When I press it again it says "Existed item!"
Let's forget about that grammar - but I must be missing something.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on March 25, 2017, 12:12:56 am
Just received my DS1054Z. So far I am somewhat happy with it - but some of the UI I just don't get.
Right now I am struggling with the Auto Measurement Items.

I press a button and the item appears - but how do I make it disappear again?
The manual only talks about "activating" them.
When I press it again it says "Existed item!"
Let's forget about that grammar - but I must be missing something.

Page 6-26 of the user's guide -

https://www.sicamax.ch/downloads/mso1000zds1000z_userguide_en.pdf (https://www.sicamax.ch/downloads/mso1000zds1000z_userguide_en.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hexreader on March 25, 2017, 12:15:31 am
Just received my DS1054Z. So far I am somewhat happy with it - but some of the UI I just don't get.
Right now I am struggling with the Auto Measurement Items.

I press a button and the item appears - but how do I make it disappear again?
The manual only talks about "activating" them.
When I press it again it says "Existed item!"
Let's forget about that grammar - but I must be missing something.

May be wrong - but something like...

   Measure
     sel item
         (untick unwanted items)

Good luck with this annoying interface.  Rigol are forgiven for this crime, as the scope is cheap and has a lot of cool features/buttons :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tcurdt on March 25, 2017, 12:24:33 am
Just received my DS1054Z. So far I am somewhat happy with it - but some of the UI I just don't get.
Right now I am struggling with the Auto Measurement Items.

I press a button and the item appears - but how do I make it disappear again?
The manual only talks about "activating" them.
When I press it again it says "Existed item!"
Let's forget about that grammar - but I must be missing something.

Page 6-26 of the user's guide -

https://www.sicamax.ch/downloads/mso1000zds1000z_userguide_en.pdf (https://www.sicamax.ch/downloads/mso1000zds1000z_userguide_en.pdf)

Thanks for the response but - not really. I tried that too.
I select "delete all" and they all disappear. (Yay!)
Then I select a single one and the rest of them appear again.

(Being someone who has worked in the UX area I want to slap whoever came up with that UI.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on March 25, 2017, 12:37:31 am
Indeed, it's annoying. This is how it always was.
The only workaround I know (in order to make the unwanted measurements to go away) is to cycle the power of the scope, but this is totally unpractical.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tcurdt on March 25, 2017, 12:38:19 am
I just wanted save a screenshot to demonstrate - but seems like it does not like any of my USB sticks.
It just keeps saying "No USB disk!" >:(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tcurdt on March 25, 2017, 12:41:24 am
Indeed, it's annoying. This is how it always was.
The only workaround I know (in order to make the unwanted measurements to go away) is to cycle the power of the scope, but this is totally unpractical.

Urgh. At least it's not me then.  :wtf:
Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tcurdt on March 25, 2017, 12:50:08 am
I just wanted save a screenshot to demonstrate - but seems like it does not like any of my USB sticks.
It just keeps saying "No USB disk!" >:(

Works now - after a restart.  ???
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 25, 2017, 01:38:06 am
I press a button and the item appears - but how do I make it disappear again?
The manual only talks about "activating" them.
When I press it again it says "Existed item!"
Let's forget about that grammar - but I must be missing something.

The manual only talks about activating them because there is no way to make individual measurements disappear. You can hide them all or replace them with the ones you want.

Being someone who has worked in the UX area I want to slap whoever came up with that UI.

Yeah, you can take a swing once I'm done with them. It's one of the worst examples of interaction design I've seen in a long time. :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 25, 2017, 02:23:59 am
Quote
there is no way to make individual measurements disappear.

Wrong.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 25, 2017, 02:26:35 am
Quote
It's one of the worst examples of interaction design I've seen in a long time.

Oh, I've seen worse. It's not so bad once you get used to it. "Pluses" and all.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 25, 2017, 03:24:38 am
Quote
there is no way to make individual measurements disappear.

Wrong.

Holy smokes! They sort of fixed it. You used to only be able to gray an item out, not delete it.

Unfortunately, it's still screwy as soon as you add a new one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on March 25, 2017, 03:25:44 am
Quote
there is no way to make individual measurements disappear.

Wrong.

Meh, not exactly.

First, it's cumbersome, and it is useful only to prepare a nice screen for a capture.
Second, as soon as a new measurement is added, the old (unselected or deleted) ones appear back, but as greyed out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 25, 2017, 03:32:06 am
Second, as soon as a new measurement is added, the old (unselected or deleted) ones appear back, but as greyed out.

I remember that behavior, but when I try it on the latest firmware, the old deleted ones not only come back, but they're not grayed out. It's even weirder than before.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: _Wim_ on March 25, 2017, 06:40:47 am
Quote
there is no way to make individual measurements disappear.

Wrong.

Meh, not exactly.

First, it's cumbersome, and it is useful only to prepare a nice screen for a capture.
Second, as soon as a new measurement is added, the old (unselected or deleted) ones appear back, but as greyed out.

What is also annoying, is when you change the font type of the measurements, only 3 measurements can be shown (that is normal because or limited space), but the scope still remembers 5!

This means when you want to add a measurement that is already displayed as invisible measure "4" or "5", the scope says "measurement already added". The only way to display that measure, is first to add 2 more other measurements that you do not need, and then select the one you need again...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on March 25, 2017, 06:49:15 am
Brightness effect noted (!!) the pulse width distortion is nuts. Would never have figured that one out. Thanks.

OK I see there's a clear consensus to play with mem depth after everything else is right. One of the reasons I asked was that so far the scope seems to systematically use a mem depth setting that is VERY low compared to its capacity. Even accounting for numbers of channels and so forth. That seemed strange.

Will experiment more.

indeed. you are starting to see how deep memory is more of an obstacle most of the time because you need much much much more processing power and of course increased blind time to process all that additional data. the trick is low amount to get the triggering right and only then a single shot at full memory depth

I just wanted save a screenshot to demonstrate - but seems like it does not like any of my USB sticks.
It just keeps saying "No USB disk!" >:(


also be careful that the scope will go crazy (recognize, no recogniza, save, not save, save only some data, ...) with memories greater than 2 (or 4) GB. it's written only in the troubleshooting guide. no mention in datasheet/related user guide section

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: _Wim_ on March 25, 2017, 06:55:14 am
I just wanted save a screenshot to demonstrate - but seems like it does not like any of my USB sticks.
It just keeps saying "No USB disk!" >:(

Works now - after a restart.  ???

It really depends on the type/brand of USB stick. I experimented with all of them I had around, and a few of them work without any problems (older types with "only" 1 GB of memory). But these work always flawlessly, so I keep them for use the them scope only. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 25, 2017, 07:27:26 am
Some of these responses puzzle me. I have no trouble displaying just the measurements I want to show, turning others off, adding new ones or displaying old, previously turned off measurements. Of course I actually use the scope every day to make measurements (however quirky or wrong or misspelled they may turn out to be) so I am very familiar with how the system operates. It appears that some people weren't even aware of the "Select Item" list or haven't used it very much. I suggest playing around with this feature a bit; eventually it will "sink in" and you'll be able to use it to display what you want, without being troubled by the "greyed out, inactive but displayed anyway" problem. Use the "Select Item" list to remove undesired greyed-out items from the screen display.

Perhaps it may help to think of the measurement display as a sort of list buffer that holds the last five that you have selected and allows you to turn on or off any of those using the "Select Item" list. When you want to add a sixth one, it goes in the fifth place and pushes the rest down one position, and the old "first" one is gone. It gets slightly more complicated when you have Large or ExtraLarge fonts selected since only three or two of the five can be displayed at one time, or if you insist on displaying your chosen measurements in some particular order.

Quote
This means when you want to add a measurement that is already displayed as invisible measure "4" or "5", the scope says "measurement already added". The only way to display that measure, is first to add 2 more other measurements that you do not need, and then select the one you need again...
No, that's not right either, if I am understanding you correctly. You just need to use the "Select Item" list to turn off one of the measurements of the three that are displayed, then you can turn on the one you need again.

Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope... but who remember playing with those complicated Chinese puzzle boxes as kids.

But what did you expect, it's only 400 dollars.   :horse:     Shouldn't you be happy that it even "pretends" to do measurements at all?   :palm:



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: John at the Falls on March 25, 2017, 09:11:13 am
Unlocking features.
March 25 2017
I just got my brand new DSO1054 today.
Just want to report my experience.

Firmware is 00.04.04.01  (00.04.04 SP 1)
This is the version that was pulled down for upgrading an existing scope but I guess it is OK since this came from the factory with this version.

The upgrade went smoothly even with bleary eyes from staying up late playing with this thing.

People may want to read the release notes to see if a firmware upgrade is really necessary from the version they have.

I followed these instructions
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnxOGl27GjE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnxOGl27GjE)

Can not believe it only cost $400 USD. I will be using it to work on CNC systems and Arduinos.

I ordered 12 18650 batteries to make a DC power pack so I can have a Mains isolated system. I will post when that happens. It is only a bit bigger than some of the handheld units and much more capable at a lower price. Isolation is the only compromise I made when selecting this scope.



 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: madires on March 25, 2017, 10:27:18 am
Any news about the new firmware version? Someone mentioned January or February.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 25, 2017, 11:59:09 am
I strongly recommend a burn-in period before making any changes to a newly-purchased scope. There is always a chance that you may have gotten a defective product that will at some point refuse to boot and refuse to allow you to remove the "hack", which may cause difficulty if you need to return it for a warranty replacement. You have a trial period of 30+ hours of use for all options except the 100MHz bandwidth increase. So use that time to confirm that you have good hardware and won't be needing to return the unit for vendor's or factory warranty service.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on March 25, 2017, 12:07:25 pm
Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope... but who remember playing with those complicated Chinese puzzle boxes as kids.

Bwahahaha!  :-DD

Yea, you can turn off the measurements, but you gotta read the manual and, well, play with your little Chinese puzzle box a little. Just think of it as a fun little game until you solve the puzzle. What other scope gives you that much fun for $400?  :clap:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: _Wim_ on March 25, 2017, 04:54:50 pm
Some of these responses puzzle me. I have no trouble displaying just the measurements I want to show, turning others off, adding new ones or displaying old, previously turned off measurements. Of course I actually use the scope every day to make measurements (however quirky or wrong or misspelled they may turn out to be) so I am very familiar with how the system operates. It appears that some people weren't even aware of the "Select Item" list or haven't used it very much. I suggest playing around with this feature a bit; eventually it will "sink in" and you'll be able to use it to display what you want, without being troubled by the "greyed out, inactive but displayed anyway" problem. Use the "Select Item" list to remove undesired greyed-out items from the screen display.

Perhaps it may help to think of the measurement display as a sort of list buffer that holds the last five that you have selected and allows you to turn on or off any of those using the "Select Item" list. When you want to add a sixth one, it goes in the fifth place and pushes the rest down one position, and the old "first" one is gone. It gets slightly more complicated when you have Large or ExtraLarge fonts selected since only three or two of the five can be displayed at one time, or if you insist on displaying your chosen measurements in some particular order.

Quote
This means when you want to add a measurement that is already displayed as invisible measure "4" or "5", the scope says "measurement already added". The only way to display that measure, is first to add 2 more other measurements that you do not need, and then select the one you need again...
No, that's not right either, if I am understanding you correctly. You just need to use the "Select Item" list to turn off one of the measurements of the three that are displayed, then you can turn on the one you need again.

Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope... but who remember playing with those complicated Chinese puzzle boxes as kids.

But what did you expect, it's only 400 dollars.   :horse:     Shouldn't you be happy that it even "pretends" to do measurements at all?   :palm:

I will try the way you suggest, never tried that before, thanks for the tip.

Please don't get me wrong, I really like this scope and its extremely good value for money, but just wanted to point out the measurements could be a bit more user friendly (the select item list I did not use so far). I wanted to point this out because maybe some Rigol programmer wouldread this, and they might update this in the next firmware release. For me it was in no way meant as a bashing of Rigol.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 25, 2017, 05:29:07 pm
I have no trouble displaying just the measurements I want to show, turning others off, adding new ones or displaying old, previously turned off measurements. Of course I actually use the scope every day to make measurements (however quirky or wrong or misspelled they may turn out to be) so I am very familiar with how the system operates. It appears that some people weren't even aware of the "Select Item" list or haven't used it very much.

When I first got my scope a couple years ago, there was only the Clear menu where you could supposedly delete individual items or all. There, deleting just grayed it out. It did not remove it from the screen. So, I stopped using that menu since it wasn't useful to me. Instead, I just treated the display as a de-duplicating, broken buffer. When I wanted different items displayed, I just pushed five new measurements into the buffer to fill it with what I wanted to see, even if that meant that not all five were ones that I needed.

So, I never noticed when the Sel.Item menu was added.

Quote
Perhaps it may help to think of the measurement display as a sort of list buffer that holds the last five that you have selected and allows you to turn on or off any of those using the "Select Item" list. When you want to add a sixth one, it goes in the fifth place and pushes the rest down one position, and the old "first" one is gone. It gets slightly more complicated when you have Large or ExtraLarge fonts selected since only three or two of the five can be displayed at one time, or if you insist on displaying your chosen measurements in some particular order.

Unfortunately, it's a rather broken system because deleting an item doesn't delete it, it grays it out. Deselecting an item hides it, but unless it's the left-most item it'll come back when you add new measurements.

Try this:

1. Add five measurements to the display. I currently have Period, Freq, +Width, Max, and Min.

2. From the Sel.Item menu, deselect items 3 (+Width) and 4 (Max). You should now only see Period, Freq, and Min, which looks nice, but don't get happy yet.

3. Add a new measurement. I'll add Vpp.

Now, I have on my screen Freq, +Width, Max, Min, and  Vpp.

Period is gone. I didn't deselect it. However, it got pushed out even though two other measurements were deselected to make room for the new measurement. Deselecting is not deleting. Deselected items can't be seen but still occupy space.

+Width and Max are back. I did not re-select them. They reappeared simply by adding a new measurement. :palm:

4. Now let's use delete. In the Clear menu, delete Max. It'll be grayed out as if it's deselected.

5. Add Vtop. Now we have Freq, +Width, Min, Vpp and Vtop. Now Max really got deleted.

Thus, delete grays out items as though they're deselected instead of removing them from the screen, but then deletes them when adding new ones. Deselect hides measurements so that they look like they're deleted, but then restores them when adding new measurements. :palm:

Quote
Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope...

Yes, that is how it seems.

Quote
But what did you expect, it's only 400 dollars.   :horse:     Shouldn't you be happy that it even "pretends" to do measurements at all?   :palm:

Hehe. Yes.  :horse: We've all become adept at it. I got a bit too happy last night when it seemed to be fixed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on March 25, 2017, 05:36:23 pm
Now, warranty expired yesterday so paranoia is kicking in...

Why can't I make it accept the number of averages by clicking the rotary encoder?

Turn on the scope, wait for trace to appear.
Go to the Acquire menu, push top button (Mode) and select "Average" with the rotary selection knob .
When you press the selecting knob the item is memorized.

"Averages" item lights up and says "2".
By turning the little selection knob I can choose any power of 2 I want but...
If I press the rotary knob to confirm it, I get "Parameter Limited!" and number of averages goes back to "2".

If I press the blue button next to the Averages item, though, the number of averages I select is accepted.

Has it always been this way?
Why this inconsistency in the UI?

P.S.
Also, a curiosity is my DS1054z the only one to have UV measles?
I looked at it with an UV torch: it's full of tiny yellow phosphorescent dots! Hope it's not catchy.

EDIT: some typos - not all, of course.
EDIT: attached image
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 25, 2017, 05:40:54 pm
Has it always been this way?

I'm not sure, but it wouldn't be surprising if it was.

Quote
Why this inconsistency in the UI?

It's not the only inconsistency. Although Rigol isn't Apple, you'll still have to get used to doing it their way. >:D

Quote
P.S.
Also, a curiosity is my DS1054z the only one to have UV measles?
I looked at it with an UV torch: it's full of tiny yellow phosphorescent dots! Hope it's not catchy.

LOL! That's a new one! Can you take a photo?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jjoonathan on March 25, 2017, 06:08:23 pm
No UV measles on my DS4014, but it's 4 years old, so almost certainly a different batch of plastic.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 25, 2017, 06:22:48 pm
Now, warranty expired yesterday so paranoia is kicking in...

Why can't I make it accept the number of averages by clicking the rotary encoder?

Turn on the scope, wait for trace to appear.
Go to the Acquire menu, push top button (Mode) and select "Average" with the rotary selection knob .
When you press the selecting knob the item is memorized.

"Averages" item lights up and says "2".
By turning the little selection knob I can choose any power of 2 I want but...
If I press the rotary knob to confirm it, I get "Parameter Limited!" and number of averages goes back to "2".

If I press the blue button next to the Averages item, though, the number of averages I select is accepted.

Has it always been this way?
Why this inconsistency in the UI?

Actually, the number of Averages is "live", that is, whatever number you select with the multifunction knob is instantly implemented, you don't need to do anything else. Pressing the blue menu button in this case does nothing at all, your Averages number is already implemented just by selecting the number with the multifunction knob. Pressing on the  knob resets the Averages to the "baseline" or default which is 2. This IS consistent with the behaviour of the other  knobs, which when pressed generally reset the corresponding function to "baseline", zero, centered, default, etc.

Yes, it has always been that way, as far as I am aware.

If your scope _doesn't_ automatically change the number of Averages simply by turning the knob, then there is something wrong somewhere.

Quote

P.S.
Also, a curiosity is my DS1054z the only one to have UV measles?
I looked at it with an UV torch: it's full of tiny yellow phosphorescent dots! Hope it's not catchy.

EDIT: some typos - not all, of course.

Nope, no UV measles here. Are you sure you're not just seeing dust particles?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on March 25, 2017, 06:52:36 pm
Thanks for confirming the UI behavior.
EDIT: for Nikola Tesla's anagram - Yep now that you mention it, it makes sense to be that way: if the options appear on a list, then you can either select one by pressing the button or scrolling with the rotary knob. It the option is a value to set, then the knob selects the value and the button confirms it - while pressing the knob reset to default.

As for the measles, I'll posted a picture tomorrow.
Unfortunately it's not dust particles. They are firmly embedded in the plastic, and I am beginning to suspect my cat (don't ask  :palm: ). What is strange is the tiny dimension of the er... yellow dots.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bzzz on March 25, 2017, 08:17:03 pm
Also, a curiosity is my DS1054z the only one to have UV measles?
I looked at it with an UV torch: it's full of tiny yellow phosphorescent dots! Hope it's not catchy.

Non here, the channel button markings are lighting up in bright colors and some dust particles are visible, but the case itself is of uniform color.

I assume you had to wait for a very long time to get the unit, and you barely managed to close the door behind you before you started unboxing...maybe it's...jizz?  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on March 25, 2017, 11:07:26 pm
I assume you had to wait for a very long time to get the unit, and you barely managed to close the door behind you before you started unboxing...maybe it's...jizz?  ;D

Germans... You have the weirdest porn on the Web.
Not that I have ever seen it, of course. A friend told me.

(Just kidding, man - I paraphrased a comment made by Stan Marsch on German Porn)  :o

I uploaded a picture. I probably need to apologize to my cat. The drops are too small. Maybe it's that Oust deodorant I sprayed in the room when one of those stinky bugs decided to immolate itself on a 200W alogen lamp.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 26, 2017, 01:31:55 am
I uploaded a picture. I probably need to apologize to my cat. The drops are too small. Maybe it's that Oust deodorant I sprayed in the room when one of those stinky bugs decided to immolate itself on a 200W alogen lamp.

That's a weird case alright. Looks rather wintery. Maybe try the spray on a know-clean piece of paper or fabric to confirm your suspicion. I'd be curious to know what it is.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on March 26, 2017, 02:07:20 am
Man it seems like it's been one and a half forevers since Rigol was supposed to release a new firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 26, 2017, 02:16:10 am
It's kind of like watching water boil and grass grow. Try not to think about it. Imagine that there will never be another update. Then, if there is one, wait a while longer to see if it actually makes things better. New firmware can be hazardous or have undesirable side effects.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on March 26, 2017, 02:20:43 am
It's another Rigol platform, but I've been waiting over a year since reporting that the .jpg screen print file on the DSA 815TG is always upside down. Even after a firmware update since then, it's still that way.

Don't hold your breath people ...  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 26, 2017, 02:54:04 am
Yeah, well since even a spelling error still can't get fixed... :-// :horse:

Anyway, make the most of what you have. If it improves at some point, great. Just don't count on it.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program: 4 channels for $400. ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on March 26, 2017, 03:39:17 am
[...]
March 25 2017
I just got my brand new DSO1054 today.
[...]
Firmware is 00.04.04.01  (00.04.04 SP 1)

Obviously: The repealed Version 00.04.01.01 is on delivery.
But still not as update. IIRC because the problems with some older boards. How hard can it be to check the board version in the installer program?

Do anyone know if the coming update version contains something else as the "old board solution"?
(Imagine: The legendary "pluses" error would be corrected...)
Is there something new known?
I´m curious if there will be any advantage in updating the 1054z if it runs already with the software version 00.04.01.01.

BTW: Something known about "LFCal" and "Output" in the expanded SelfCal menue?
Perhaps they are related to the LA and FG option of the 1074z-s?
Or, what are they supposed to do in the 1054z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 26, 2017, 04:45:21 am
I haven't heard about any other fixes. But we could be surprised (for better or worse). It's always an adventure. :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 26, 2017, 10:04:09 am
Are the yellow dots in a regular pattern?

Maybe it's like those yellow dots that printers add to documents to identify your printer.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on March 26, 2017, 11:08:54 am
Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope... but who remember playing with those complicated Chinese puzzle boxes as kids.

But what did you expect, it's only 400 dollars.   :horse:     Shouldn't you be happy that it even "pretends" to do measurements at all?   :palm:

I will try the way you suggest, never tried that before, thanks for the tip.

Please don't get me wrong, I really like this scope and its extremely good value for money, but just wanted to point out the measurements could be a bit more user friendly (the select item list I did not use so far). I wanted to point this out because maybe some Rigol programmer wouldread this, and they might update this in the next firmware release. For me it was in no way meant as a bashing of Rigol.
Yeah, apparently the fact that it's cheap means we forfeit the right to wish the software was better...  :palm: :-DD |O

Sorry, as a former UX professional, it really could use some work, and it's fair game to say so. I'm with you, Wim. The fact that some people here don't find it problematic doesn't mean that it's a good design. Some people have a higher tolerance for bad UX, and that's fine, but they should respect that others are really bothered by the distraction of bad design. (A tool should be transparent, i.e., diseappear into the background, leaving you to focus on the work. The measurements are annoying.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 26, 2017, 11:40:34 am
Quote
The fact that some people here don't find it problematic doesn't mean that it's a good design.

Does the fact that lots of people buy and use the scope happily mean it's a bad design?

Oh, I don't exactly disagree with you.... but.... "you get what you pay for", and sometimes, with Chinese stuff, you get even less.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on March 26, 2017, 11:50:40 am
Quote
The fact that some people here don't find it problematic doesn't mean that it's a good design.

Does the fact that lots of people buy and use the scope happily mean it's a bad design?
If you are not used to quality you don't know any better. For example: Recently I bought a caliper from a cheap brand because my old caliper (Mitutoyo) had an accident. I used it a couple of times but it just didn't feel right and it also had a lot of play in the jaw so I bought a Mitutoyo.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on March 26, 2017, 12:10:43 pm
Quote
The fact that some people here don't find it problematic doesn't mean that it's a good design.
Does the fact that lots of people buy and use the scope happily mean it's a bad design?
The fact that lots of people buy it and use it happily says absolutely nothing about whether it's a good design or not, only that it's not so bad as to be a deal-breaker. People tolerate poor designs all the time, for various reasons (mostly for lack of alternatives, or because it's too expensive to replace something that's already purchased). Only once it goes beyond a particular pain threshold do we take action. That threshold is very individual. (For me, it's low: it's why I can't stand using Windows and Linux, the little tiny usability problems in them drive me nuts. Most people have a higher threshold, and that's fine.)

The fact that many users DO complain about this particular problem, on the other hand, is a decent indicator that it might be a bad design that needs further investigation by a usability professional. As someone with a professional background in usability, I can tell you, it's a bad design. (It's a classic example of the user interface design exposing the underlying programming structure.)

Oh, I don't exactly disagree with you....
You've done nothing but disagree with everyone who complains about this bad UI.

but.... "you get what you pay for", and sometimes, with Chinese stuff, you get even less.
For one, price has little correlation with the quality of usability. Many very expensive products have terrible user interfaces. (For example, the first generation of BMW's iDrive became famous for how terrible a UI it was.) If anything, you often see the opposite, that expensive (i.e. non-mass-market) products have terrible UIs because they're made in such small numbers that the manufacturer can't invest in big UX projects.

Second, and this is the part you seem to have trouble grasping: No, it being cheap DOES NOT mean we give up the right to complain about something that is bad! Moreover, if it were a usability problem that was a constraint of cheaper hardware, we might have more sympathy for it. But it's not, it's a trivial software issue that probably wouldn't cost Rigol more than a few hundred man-hours to write, test, document, and deploy. At Chinese wages and with the volume they're shipping, this isn't too much to ask.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 26, 2017, 12:17:43 pm
Well, I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not I am used to quality. But correct me if I am wrong: the OSCILLOSCOPE we are discussing here is made and marketed and sold and bought as a beginner's, low-end, DSO. Many people who have bought this scope have little or no experience at all with DSOs or CROs, "quality" or otherwise, and are even somewhat overawed by the DS1054z. This clearly does not apply to you, nor does it apply to me. I have a great deal of experience using _my employer's_ high end Tek and LeCroy oscilloscopes, and if I had the money to buy one myself, I wouldn't be using the Rigol. But not everyone has the luxury to be able to buy Mitsutoyo calipers, Snap-On wrenches, or LeCroy oscilloscopes-- yet somehow they get the necessary jobs done with lesser, much cheaper tools. If you don't like the Rigol's look and feel, then by all means don't use it, go buy a LeCroy. The last LeCroy I used ran its scope application on a Windows OS, and you could even surf the net, check your email and watch YouTube videos on it. The one before that blew a channel and the service department wanted 3,000 dollars CDN to fix it. Does this mean that a beginner shouldn't buy and happily use a Rigol DS1054z? I don't think so.

By the way, I have a cheap Harbor Freight digital caliper that is every bit as accurate and easy to use as the high-end Mitsutoyo caliper it replaces. If I drop it... I'm out 15 dollars. If I drop the Mitsutoyo.... well, I have to give up eating lunch for a couple of months to pay for it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 26, 2017, 12:21:36 pm
Quote
You've done nothing but disagree with everyone who complains about this bad UI.

Wrong again. Look back at my posts in this thread.

You even quoted me yourself:

Quote
Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope... but who remember playing with those complicated Chinese puzzle boxes as kids.

What I -have- done is explain how many of the problems people have reported are user-related, often due to not RTFM or not understanding how a particular control actually works.

Funny... I am often criticised by certain individuals as being a Rigol-basher, and now I'm accused of being a fanboy. Make up your minds, people! If you don't like the scope, DON'T USE IT -- unless of course you absolutely need to use a scope and it's the only one handy --- or affordable. And by all means... RTFM !!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on March 26, 2017, 12:43:37 pm
The fact that lots of people buy it and use it happily says absolutely nothing about whether it's a good design or not, only that it's not so bad as to be a deal-breaker. People tolerate poor designs all the time, for various reasons (mostly for lack of alternatives, or because it's too expensive to replace something that's already purchased). Only once it goes beyond a particular pain threshold do we take action. That threshold is very individual. (For me, it's low: it's why I can't stand using Windows and Linux, the little tiny usability problems in them drive me nuts. Most people have a higher threshold, and that's fine.)

Well tooki, here's the way I look at it. I've got one and other than the quirks we all talk about, it's perfectly acceptable for my ham radio/electronics hobby needs and that's what many people use it for. I ain't trying to fix the Superconducting Super Collider with it. I, like alsetalokin4017, have used some of the best test equipment made when I was working (I'm retired now). I know what a piece of total junk is like to work with. This thing is really perfectly acceptable for the price and performance.

The thing is, look at the forum stats. This thread is in the Top Ten forum thread list by relies AND by views. This thread is 139 pages now! If this scope was a total piece of s*** the talk would have long since stopped after a few pages of reviews and replies, and the scope would not be selling like it is. It's a tantalizing situation, in that it's very good for the price, and what a lot of people think is how a few more hours of work by Rigol on the thing would make it better, but they don't seem to want to go that last mile, for whatever reason. OK, well, they probably think that since it's selling so well and recommended so much, why do it. I don't know - I don't run the company. But again, the thing is it's so good for the price it's been examined down to a gnat's ass and that's what all the posts are about - people using it for all sorts of tasks and exposing the last few irritating bugs.

But what do I know?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 26, 2017, 06:33:08 pm
Does the fact that lots of people buy and use the scope happily mean it's a bad design?

No, the fact that many functions are broken and Rigol is deceptive and lies about its capabilities makes it a bad design.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: thomastheo on March 26, 2017, 09:17:42 pm
Does the fact that lots of people buy and use the scope happily mean it's a bad design?

No, the fact that many functions are broken and Rigol is deceptive and lies about its capabilities makes it a bad design.

We're 139 pages into this thread, I had hoped we would have moved on from this point by now. Is there an emergency stop button anywhere around here?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on March 26, 2017, 11:15:47 pm
You even quoted me yourself:

Quote
Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope... but who remember playing with those complicated Chinese puzzle boxes as kids.
I don't see how that quote supports any argument you're making.


What I -have- done is explain how many of the problems people have reported are user-related, often due to not RTFM or not understanding how a particular control actually works.
"user related problem" is what shitty designers say to justify their shitty designs. Do users sometimes make mistakes? Of course. But when you've got something that routinely confuses and/or annoys users, it's a shitty design. UIs should be designed around human needs. If you can't make sense of a UI without the fucking manual, it's a shitty design. Good user interfaces are self-explanatory.

Funny... I am often criticised by certain individuals as being a Rigol-basher, and now I'm accused of being a fanboy. Make up your minds, people! If you don't like the scope, DON'T USE IT -- unless of course you absolutely need to use a scope and it's the only one handy --- or affordable. And by all means... RTFM !!!
I didn't make any claims as to you being a Rigol basher or fanboy. I'm saying that you're talking out of your ass with regards to user interfaces, and as someone with both a formal background and professional experience in that field, I stand by that opinion.



Well tooki, here's the way I look at it. I've got one and other than the quirks we all talk about, it's perfectly acceptable for my ham radio/electronics hobby needs and that's what many people use it for. I ain't trying to fix the Superconducting Super Collider with it. I, like alsetalokin4017, have used some of the best test equipment made when I was working (I'm retired now). I know what a piece of total junk is like to work with. This thing is really perfectly acceptable for the price and performance.

The thing is, look at the forum stats. This thread is in the Top Ten forum thread list by relies AND by views. This thread is 139 pages now! If this scope was a total piece of s*** the talk would have long since stopped after a few pages of reviews and replies, and the scope would not be selling like it is. It's a tantalizing situation, in that it's very good for the price, and what a lot of people think is how a few more hours of work by Rigol on the thing would make it better, but they don't seem to want to go that last mile, for whatever reason. OK, well, they probably think that since it's selling so well and recommended so much, why do it. I don't know - I don't run the company. But again, the thing is it's so good for the price it's been examined down to a gnat's ass and that's what all the posts are about - people using it for all sorts of tasks and exposing the last few irritating bugs.

But what do I know?  :popcorn:

I didn't say it's a bad product overall. We were talking about the user interface of the measurements feature, which is a pain point for many users. The poor UI of the measurements stand out in part because the rest of the unit is pretty damned good. (Other than the non-detented rotary encoder for the multipurpose dial, the hardware design is good, and the build quality is excellent.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 27, 2017, 12:06:49 am
You may be the expert you claim to be, but I find your language and your approach to this discussion offensive. Do you talk to people like that when you are face-to-face with them?

Quote
I don't see how that quote supports any argument you're making.

That is right, you don't see. Do you see this:

Quote
You've done nothing but disagree with everyone who complains about this bad UI.

The quote to which you refer directly contradicts your statement and proves that you are wrong about me.

Do you actually own a DS1054z? One wonders why you bother with this thread at all.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 27, 2017, 12:17:52 am
We're 139 pages into this thread, I had hoped we would have moved on from this point by now. Is there an emergency stop button anywhere around here?

I will move on and change my opinion of Rigol after they fix the problems with their products and their misleading documentation; they have had years to do so.  There is no statute of limitation for shady companies which remain shady.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on March 27, 2017, 02:25:36 am
You may be the expert you claim to be, but I find your language and your approach to this discussion offensive. Do you talk to people like that when you are face-to-face with them?
Absolutely, when my patience has run out. I feel no obligation to pussyfoot around someone who's been nothing but a pain in the ass to people attempting to have a real discussion about a real problem that bothers them. I tried to reason with you, it didn't work.

Quote
I don't see how that quote supports any argument you're making.

That is right, you don't see. Do you see this:

Quote
You've done nothing but disagree with everyone who complains about this bad UI.

The quote to which you refer directly contradicts your statement and proves that you are wrong about me.
In your mind perhaps. But explaining HOW the Rigol software got to be how it is is not germaine to the discussion. You have only dug your heels in in claiming it's the users' fault for not being able to use the bad measurement UI, and that because it's an inexpensive instrument, we have no right to complain. With both of those opinions I vociferously disagree.


Do you actually own a DS1054z? One wonders why you bother with this thread at all.
Yes, I do own it, and the measurements drive me nuts. So yeah, I'm personally invested in this.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kcbrown on March 27, 2017, 03:35:21 am
For one, price has little correlation with the quality of usability.

Really?

What inexpensive items can you think of that nevertheless have excellent usability and aren't clear derivatives of more expensive items of the same type?

People who know what they're doing cost money, period.   If you want a good user interface in a commercial product, you have to get it designed by someone who knows what they're doing when it comes to user interfaces, and that costs more than having it designed by someone whose expertise lies with some other area that is necessary for the project.  More precisely, it is not uncommon for software, especially, to have its user interface designed by the same people who designed and implemented the rest of the software, since the necessary expertise to design and code the software is much more fundamental to the success of the software than is user interface expertise.  While someone who doesn't know a whole lot about user interfaces can put together a poor but functional one, someone who doesn't know a whole lot about coding can't design and code a functional piece of software at all.

Indeed, as regards user interfaces, it's even worse than that.  A good user interface not only adheres to general usability principles, it's designed so that the target users can properly use it.  That means that the usability expert has to not only have expertise in user interfaces, he must also have expertise in the domain the product is intended to target.  As regards oscilloscopes, it means the user interface expert must understand the features of the oscilloscope and how they are to be used.  Merely being good at designing user interfaces isn't enough.


Quote
Many very expensive products have terrible user interfaces.

Yes.  But that alone doesn't break the correlation.  While many very expensive products have terrible user interfaces, few inexpensive products have good user interfaces (but see below, as there are clear exceptions to that).   Good user interfaces are more easily found in expensive products than in inexpensive ones.  Look at Linux and Windows, in contrast with Mac OS, for an excellent example.  Apple products command a premium in part because Apple spent the money up-front on usability, and focused so much on it that usability became their signature trait.


Quote
(For example, the first generation of BMW's iDrive became famous for how terrible a UI it was.)

Yes.  How long did it continue to have a terrible UI?  The first generation of anything isn't necessarily a good metric to use for determining whether there's a correlation between expense and quality of the UI.


Quote
If anything, you often see the opposite, that expensive (i.e. non-mass-market) products have terrible UIs because they're made in such small numbers that the manufacturer can't invest in big UX projects.

Then how is it that Windows, a mass market product with many more seats than Mac OS, has a much worse UI than Mac OS?

There are products that are relatively inexpensive which have solid user interfaces, but those tend to be mainstream products for which a poor user interface would be a major competitive disadvantage, or which are heavily regulated (e.g., avionics), or which have to be competently implemented because a screwup on the part of the operator could cost lives (e.g., cars, for which the controls for the major systems are almost always well-designed).

In the end, it comes down to the ability and willingness of the manufacturer to spend the needed extra money on user interface design.  That money will increase the cost, so the expenditure has to be justifiable somehow.

While there's no question that the DS1054Z's user interface has problems, exactly what would be the justification for Rigol to spend the extra money on people who know how to design solid user interfaces, given their target market and general market strategy?  How would you expect them to recover their increased costs as a result?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 27, 2017, 04:32:52 am
While there's no question that the DS1054Z's user interface has problems, exactly what would be the justification for Rigol to spend the extra money on people who know how to design solid user interfaces, given their target market and general market strategy?  How would you expect them to recover their increased costs as a result?

It certainly wouldn't silence the haters. They'd just find something else about it to bash.

We've seen it in this thread a hundred times - every time a bug is fixed the Rigol-haters instantly just move on to something else. Not enough bugs left? Lets moan about the UI instead.  :horse:

Would they really prefer a world with no $400, 4-channel, 100MHz oscilloscopes in it? Where oscilloscopes are all perfect but start at $5000?

How about cars? Should we remove all the sub-$30,000 cars from the market because of their poor performance and sub-luxury comfort levels?

Me? I'm more than happy with the amount of value my DS1054Z gives me. It's hard to imagine doing electronics without it.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on March 27, 2017, 04:48:37 am
Its getting really tiring to read all the waves of waves of whiners/bashers come and go in this thread .... really.  :palm:

To all DS1054Z haters, please, don't ruin your life and your sleep, just sell it, post it at the Buy/Sell/Wanted section.

PS : This applies only to owners of course, as I suspect there are few "frequent" bashers here don't own it.  :-DD



Regarding the selling market price for used one, worry its too low ?


C'mon, its nothing compared to the misery you've been thru ...

.... unless ... you are really enjoying "the whining" it self.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on March 27, 2017, 05:56:27 am
Almost everything is produced to fit a price point.  The level of that price point and expected market sales will limit the design, development, and features of a product.  Each and every piece of test equipment is made to fit a need and price point.  Where there is a market for a item of a certain cost, there is someone that will try to meet that market need.    While snobbery makes one feel better about the high priced or subjectively "better" equipment, that same equipment, even used will not always meet the needs or expectations of others. 
That is the rub about opinions.  Many times, they are worth only what you pay for them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on March 27, 2017, 06:31:11 am
ours shouldn't be (always) seen as whining.
the "is only 400$" cannot be a justification to everything. that's right, this scope is only good if you don't know better. if rigol decided not to focus on this project because its very low cost and margin it would be understandable, but yet we keep seeing updates and promises of updates, with little improvement but new shiny functions. for one i'm sure we now have the full memory FFT because the intern at that time told them he knew how to do it.. how hard is it to fix a fucking spelling error that was introduced with an update and promptly reported? one update later, we see shiny full screen XY (still hardly usable but hey, that's how it is on a DSO under many figures)
consumer chinese electronics at its best. get some hardware, slap together some software and sell. how better it would have been if they decided to putt LESS functions but implementing them right.. want more stuff? get the higher end models, how it is for everything. see gwi, another chinese company but at least they do things right, their base model has a faster architecture but with less functionality. want more? pay more but still receive quality.

rant over, i became dubious of selling my 1054 after i saw the post of that guy that installed linux on it, hope is not yet lost

... not over. i'll add one more thing.
One could make a topic about the issues in the 1054z, how to see them, how to test them and how to get around them (if possible)
i'm pretty sure the first pages would be flooded by yours "it's only 400$" comments. for each post a reply
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 27, 2017, 06:47:09 am
Quote
Yes, I do own it, and the measurements drive me nuts. So yeah, I'm personally invested in this.

Then by all means, sell it immediately and put the money you get towards getting a "properly designed" R&S or Agilent or Tek or LeCroy scope.  I am certain that there are many people who would be very happy to have a DS1054z, relatively unused, at a nice price, warts and all. And nobody wants you to be driven nuts by the equipment you have to use daily.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 27, 2017, 06:54:21 am
Quote
Absolutely, when my patience has run out. I feel no obligation to pussyfoot around someone who's been nothing but a pain in the ass to people attempting to have a real discussion about a real problem that bothers them. I tried to reason with you, it didn't work.

Once again I find your characterization of me offensive, but also simply WRONG. If you look back in this thread you will find many posts from me where I actually help people to understand, track down problems and issues, and even point out problems and criticize the scope's software. Not only that, but I am on my THIRD DS1054 unit, after returning one to the vendor and one to RigolUSA for replacement, due to hardware and software issues.

I tried to reason with you... and correct your misconceptions about the scope, about me and my posts... and it didn't work. Have YOU actually ever HELPED anyone in this thread to use or understand their scope? I think not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 27, 2017, 06:57:20 am
Quote
i'm pretty sure the first pages would be flooded by yours "it's only 400$" comments.

You'll have to ask Fungus about that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 27, 2017, 07:46:23 am
While there's no question that the DS1054Z's user interface has problems, exactly what would be the justification for Rigol to spend the extra money on people who know how to design solid user interfaces, given their target market and general market strategy?  How would you expect them to recover their increased costs as a result?

What extra money? I bought this funny box, paid money for it, spent about 2 months dissecting it's programming & GUI based on my ~20year pro experience in GUI/software design. Did gave feedback incl. directly to Rigol, for free (as many others have done before!). Result? 0.
It's not about the money. It's about some amateurs (regarding GUI design / math at least) getting a high ranking position in company. Luckily for them if product is cheap enough there always will be fanboys who will find excuse for every flaw or situation as whole.
So at least can agree with fanboys on one point - I this box insults your intelligence - sell it. It's not going to get better anytime soon.
You only have to spend about 3dB more to get combination of two other products that will do almost everything miles better.





Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 27, 2017, 08:12:03 am
Actually... Rigol has been quite responsive, if somewhat slow, in fixing errors in the software. Sure, the errors shouldn't have been there in the first place, one could argue, and rightly so. If you are experiencing a "failure to communicate"... maybe you should look to your style of communication as being at least part of the problem.

And I am very offended by "tooki's" constant mischaracterization of me. It really rankles, because I have been a very vocal AND EFFECTIVE critic of the bugs and certain other infecilities in this scope.  But things like the "fan noise" and the "encoder problems" which have caused some people to void their warranty by actually replacing hardware have not been an issue for me at all. The fan in my unit is not nearly as loud as the fans in my computer, and the "encoder problems" are happening because people just aren't using their fingers properly. I have no trouble at all getting the option I want when pressing the encoder button. It just takes a steady hand.

Here are two examples. In the screenshot below, which I have posted several times, you can see 5 "bugs" or errors at once. Rigol has fixed _every one_ of these, except the silly "pluses" spelling error, in the current firmware.

In this video you can obviously tell that I am frustrated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vJcK9xX1QA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vJcK9xX1QA)
This is the video that caused RigolUSA to contact me (after I filed a bug report and started communicating with a Rigol tech named Jason) and _they_ asked _me_, not the other way around, to return that unit for a replacement, which I did, and they even sent me the replacement _before_ I sent the old unit back to them, so I could test them both side-by-side for a few days. And yes, they paid for shipping both ways. Would that have happened with Siglent or GWInstek or Agilent or Tektronix? I don't know.

I wonder how many of the "complainers" bought their scopes, as I did, because of our kind host's rave reviews, and then found out about the various bugs and UI problems, which weren't mentioned at all in his reviews.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 27, 2017, 08:18:52 am
If you are experiencing a "failure to communicate"... maybe you should look to your style of communication as being at least part of the problem.

If it's the case it's again non-professional approach from their part. Professional has not the slightest interest in customers mood, attitude, skin color or hairstyle. Only about what customer has to say about product, with all "extra info" simply ignored. At least I'm very grateful even for angry calls when some little bug has slipped thru to live system. It's much worse when they just keep it silent and move to competitors system...

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on March 27, 2017, 08:28:13 am
Given the amount of activity I thought there was a new firmware. Instead this again...

Why would anyone spend time in a thread about a product they dislike? I guess everyone is in love with the over-promise of what a DS1Z could have been had they delivered all the promises they made. But not everyone handles the disappointing letdowns the same: Some are more sensitive than others.

The animosity towards the product is a specular reflection of the love they have for the product it could have been - what they wanted it to be.

But (unfortunately) as Fungus points out - it is still in its own Niche in town - and until someone like Tek or Keysight or Lecroy or Sigalent delivers a competing low end design at a similar (or at least same ball park price) - I don't see why Rigol should invest much in improving the design. Market forces trump corporate altruism for successful companies.

It desperately needs a competitor. Perhaps people here can Gang up on Daniel and have him drop Keysight prices?

   
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on March 27, 2017, 08:53:27 am
Quote
I wonder how many of the "complainers" bought their scopes, as I did, because of our kind host's rave reviews, and then found out about the various bugs and UI problems, which weren't mentioned at all in his reviews.

well i did, but i couldn't do any better. i was young(er), with a lot less experience and without any possibility to check it firsthand
now that i know better, if i could do it all over again i would have never gone for the rigol, i would have got a picoscope in a heartbeat

for what it's worth i find the new keysight to be an excellent competitor, for a fraction of keysight's cost you get a real keysight. i am willing to put aside every ""shortcoming"" one could find and get something that on paper might be less, but in facts is actually more.

well, the keysight is positioned to be against the rigol 2000A so it's not a real comparison, no matter what they try to tell you on sale sheets. keysight also appears to be the only one who wants to get to student and hobbyists.. lecroy and tek are just not interested. (the "cheap" lecroy is the rebadged siglent sds3000, you know. good hardware with lecroy software)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on March 27, 2017, 10:17:03 am
For one, price has little correlation with the quality of usability.

Really?

What inexpensive items can you think of that nevertheless have excellent usability and aren't clear derivatives of more expensive items of the same type?

People who know what they're doing cost money, period.   If you want a good user interface in a commercial product, you have to get it designed by someone who knows what they're doing when it comes to user interfaces, and that costs more than having it designed by someone whose expertise lies with some other area that is necessary for the project.  More precisely, it is not uncommon for software, especially, to have its user interface designed by the same people who designed and implemented the rest of the software, since the necessary expertise to design and code the software is much more fundamental to the success of the software than is user interface expertise.  While someone who doesn't know a whole lot about user interfaces can put together a poor but functional one, someone who doesn't know a whole lot about coding can't design and code a functional piece of software at all.

Indeed, as regards user interfaces, it's even worse than that.  A good user interface not only adheres to general usability principles, it's designed so that the target users can properly use it.  That means that the usability expert has to not only have expertise in user interfaces, he must also have expertise in the domain the product is intended to target.  As regards oscilloscopes, it means the user interface expert must understand the features of the oscilloscope and how they are to be used.  Merely being good at designing user interfaces isn't enough.


Quote
Many very expensive products have terrible user interfaces.

Yes.  But that alone doesn't break the correlation.  While many very expensive products have terrible user interfaces, few inexpensive products have good user interfaces (but see below, as there are clear exceptions to that).   Good user interfaces are more easily found in expensive products than in inexpensive ones.  Look at Linux and Windows, in contrast with Mac OS, for an excellent example.  Apple products command a premium in part because Apple spent the money up-front on usability, and focused so much on it that usability became their signature trait.


Quote
(For example, the first generation of BMW's iDrive became famous for how terrible a UI it was.)

Yes.  How long did it continue to have a terrible UI?  The first generation of anything isn't necessarily a good metric to use for determining whether there's a correlation between expense and quality of the UI.


Quote
If anything, you often see the opposite, that expensive (i.e. non-mass-market) products have terrible UIs because they're made in such small numbers that the manufacturer can't invest in big UX projects.

Then how is it that Windows, a mass market product with many more seats than Mac OS, has a much worse UI than Mac OS?

There are products that are relatively inexpensive which have solid user interfaces, but those tend to be mainstream products for which a poor user interface would be a major competitive disadvantage, or which are heavily regulated (e.g., avionics), or which have to be competently implemented because a screwup on the part of the operator could cost lives (e.g., cars, for which the controls for the major systems are almost always well-designed).

In the end, it comes down to the ability and willingness of the manufacturer to spend the needed extra money on user interface design.  That money will increase the cost, so the expenditure has to be justifiable somehow.

While there's no question that the DS1054Z's user interface has problems, exactly what would be the justification for Rigol to spend the extra money on people who know how to design solid user interfaces, given their target market and general market strategy?  How would you expect them to recover their increased costs as a result?
You ask some very good questions, but I'm worried about further derailing this thread by going even farther astray from the concrete product at hand!

Most of what you ask is addressed by my prior statement that people will tolerate a bad UI up to a point; Windows is a perfect example of this. It's not as good as Mac, but not so bad as to make most users run and scream.

You are right that good UIs cost money, and absolutely 10000% correct that the designer must truly understand the task at hand. (Having worked in UX, and having had to spend 6 months immersing myself in library science for one project, I truly cannot agree with you more!) But I think your examples are kinda flawed: Microsoft spends a fortune on UX research and design, but various other factors resulted in bad UIs despite this. Linux is really the example of what happens when there's little investment in UX.

It's hard to find examples of things that are good and cheap and "not derivatives" because the normal progression of technology is for things to begin expensive and then get copied cheaper. But look at the context of this discussion: a cheap scope which is clearly "derivative" of more expensive DSOs, and we have people arguing that because it's cheap, we must accept the bad UI.

Nonetheless, I would posit that there's lots of inexpensive software, for example, with excellent UIs. And lots of expensive software (*cough* Eagle *cough*) whose UIs make me want to gouge my eyes out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 27, 2017, 11:28:55 am
It desperately needs a competitor.

Yep.

Perhaps people here can Gang up on Daniel and have him drop Keysight prices?

I don't think Daniel has that power.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 27, 2017, 12:24:20 pm
for what it's worth i find the new keysight to be an excellent competitor, for a fraction of keysight's cost you get a real keysight. i am willing to put aside every ""shortcoming"" one could find and get something that on paper might be less, but in facts is actually more.

Certainly a lot more money than a DS1054Z.

PS: If you're going to spend $1000+ then there's already 'scopes out there that are quite decent, no need to wait for Keysight.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on March 27, 2017, 12:39:36 pm
Perhaps people here can Gang up on Daniel and have him drop Keysight prices?

I don't think Daniel has that power.

I was being facetious. I apologize.

Then again - there is no harm trying :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 12:55:58 pm
I wonder how many of the "complainers" bought their scopes, as I did, because of our kind host's rave reviews, and then found out about the various bugs and UI problems, which weren't mentioned at all in his reviews.

If I found any bugs I would have shown them and mention them.
How can a reviewer possibly be expected the test every combination and permutation of every feature to find every bug? That's a totally unrealistic expectation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 27, 2017, 01:04:25 pm
It desperately needs a competitor.
Yep.

Sometimes I wonder where everybody else is. It's obvious that Rigol sells a lot of DS1054Zs. You can see the stock numbers going up/down on sellers like Batronix.

Is there no bean-counter from another company watching those numbers? The Rigol is 2+ years old now so it must be possible to build something cheaper using more integrated chips, etc.

The only explanation I can come up with is that every other company is just not willing to make something at that price because it would have an effect on the sales of their own more expensive products and be a net loss for the company.

Me? I'm happy with my $400 DS1054Z. Build quality is good, the wiggly lines on screen work, frequency measurements work, storage/zoom works. Everything else is just gravy as far as I'm concerned.

The UI could use some work, particularly the menu system* and the left/right scrolling when zoomed.

(*) Using a rotary knob to go up/down menus and select things when it has up/down arrow buttons next to the menu?  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on March 27, 2017, 01:05:57 pm
Is there no bean-counter from another company watching those numbers? The Rigol is 2+ years old now so it must be possible to build something cheaper using more integrated chips, etc.
The same bean counters who decided to outsource oscilloscope manufacturing in the first place, and teaching several Chinese manufacturers to make oscilloscopes as a result :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 01:07:18 pm
It certainly wouldn't silence the haters. They'd just find something else about it to bash.
We've seen it in this thread a hundred times - every time a bug is fixed the Rigol-haters instantly just move on to something else. Not enough bugs left? Lets moan about the UI instead.  :horse:
Would they really prefer a world with no $400, 4-channel, 100MHz oscilloscopes in it? Where oscilloscopes are all perfect but start at $5000?

It should be noted that Rigol practically created and pioneered the low cost scope market.
That should at least confer them some respect.
I have not visited this thread in a long time, and I'm amazed. Such hate for an entry level $400 scope, and the company behind it is embarrassing to read.  :--
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 27, 2017, 01:08:34 pm
I wonder how many of the "complainers" bought their scopes, as I did, because of our kind host's rave reviews, and then found out about the various bugs and UI problems, which weren't mentioned at all in his reviews.

If I found any bugs I would have shown them and mention them.
How can a reviewer possibly be expected the test every combination and permutation of every feature to find every bug? That's a totally unrealistic expectation.

Yep. Most of the DS1054Z bugs took months to appear here because people simply didn't find them in normal use.

The DS1054Z "jitter" bug you made a video on needed a very particular frequency and the trigger position to be offset horizontally by a large amount. There's way a reviewer could be expected to find that in a couple of days.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 01:12:09 pm
Is there no bean-counter from another company watching those numbers? The Rigol is 2+ years old now so it must be possible to build something cheaper using more integrated chips, etc.

The new Siglent 1000X-E will be cheaper than the 1054Z, albeit only two channels, but superior in some other ways.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 27, 2017, 01:12:50 pm
I have not visited this thread in a long time, and I'm amazed. Such hate for an entry level $400 scope, and the company behind it is embarrassing to read.  :--

You haven't felt the hate directed towards anybody who tries to defend it.

I think mine's great. It ticks all the right boxes for what I want from a hobby 'scope. :popcorn:

Do you think any of this month's newcomers is going to unseat it, eg. the Keysight in your latest video? (Is pricing still secret for that one?)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 27, 2017, 01:17:55 pm
The new Siglent 1000X-E will be cheaper than the 1054Z, albeit only two channels.

I haven't memorized the exact specs of that model, but if the External trigger can be used as a third digital channel then it might not matter.

If I were Keysight I'd be advertising that as a "2+1 channel" oscilloscope or something.

I work a lot with Arduinos and digital stuff so the extra channel seems like a really big deal to me, I'd make a lot of noise about it.  :-//

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=303116;image)

Still, if it's not hackable and all the options are expensive then I dunno. With a DS1054Z you can have everything with a simple keygen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 27, 2017, 01:23:56 pm
I have not visited this thread in a long time, and I'm amazed. Such hate for an entry level $400 scope, and the company behind it is embarrassing to read.  :--

"Hate" is direct result of "hype". Do not be so sure all "haters" actually care so much. It just sort of reflection if you will... Had to come sooner or later.
But overall situation on the forum has much improved IMHO, less hype, lots of new scopes on the scene :-+ It's important to keep it that way.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 01:24:38 pm
I have not visited this thread in a long time, and I'm amazed. Such hate for an entry level $400 scope, and the company behind it is embarrassing to read.  :--
You haven't felt the hate directed towards anybody who tries to defend it.
I think mine's great. It ticks all the right boxes for what I want from a hobby 'scope. :popcorn:

Mine works fine every time I use it too.
Not perfect, and I've said many times I'm not a fan of the UI, but it works, and there is nothing that makes me want to throw it across the room, except maybe the dicky selection knob press.

Quote
Do you think any of this month's newcomers is going to unseat it, eg. the Keysight in your latest video? (Is pricing still secret for that one?)

The Keysight doesn't, no. Unless it gets fully hacked, then maybe. But it's still more expensive either way, so not a fair comparison. A vastly more friendly scope to use, so those bitching about the Rigol UI should just sell it and shell out a few more bucks and buy a Keysight.
Rigol isn't going to radially change their whole UI because some people on a forum are bitching about it.

The new Siglent is cheaper than the Rigol, but you give up two channels. It's faster and more responsive (not hugely), more bandwidth, vastly more powerful FFT, and you get everything as standard, no need to hack it. It's UI has it's quirks too. I think there is another thread somewhere about people bitching about the current Siglent 1000X bugs and UI?

For everyday general use I would pick the Keysight without question, it just works the nicest.
If every dollar counted, the Siglent.
If I could only have one scope in the lab, probably the Rigol purely because of the 4 channels.

I forgot the GW Instek, it's a player too.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 01:26:21 pm
The new Siglent 1000X-E will be cheaper than the 1054Z, albeit only two channels.
I haven't memorized the exact specs of that model, but if the External trigger can be used as a third digital channel then it might not matter.

It can't. I mention that in my latest repair video which uses the 1000X-E
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sainter on March 27, 2017, 01:29:09 pm
I bought DS1054Z for hobby use, because I could not spent any more money for my joy alone. If I would need a scope for day to day bread earning, I would invest more, into a better and faster scope.

But all in all, if not the low cost of this entry, hobby scope I wouldn't have a DSO now. And seeing people, who should get a strong kit together (investing in there business), but instead buy hobby gear and then bitch about it... starting to thing ranting is their hobby.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 27, 2017, 01:32:35 pm
so those bitching about the Rigol UI should just sell it and shell out a few more bucks and buy a Keysight.

Fingers crossed.  :popcorn:

If I could only have one scope in the lab, probably the Rigol purely because of the 4 channels.

QFT.

I forgot the GW Instek, it's a player too.

If you must have a really quiet 'scope, better vertical position movement or a better FFT then yes, it's a player.

OTOH you get half the bandwidth, smaller memory, worse intensity grading, no serial decoders... etc.

Take your pick.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 27, 2017, 01:37:34 pm
It can't. I mention that in my latest repair video which uses the 1000X-E

I'm about half way through that video as I type this.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on March 27, 2017, 01:37:44 pm
It should be noted that Rigol practically created and pioneered the low cost scope market.
That should at least confer them some respect.
I have not visited this thread in a long time, and I'm amazed. Such hate for an entry level $400 scope, and the company behind it is embarrassing to read.  :--
Note that I own one (I purchased the 1074Z) and I don't regret buying it at all. Quite the contrary, ¡I am happy with it!  Obviously it has its limitations, but it works for me.

That said, I think Rigol needs some time to reach maturity as a manufacturer. Some of the features seem to be there just as "checklist items" rather than useful features. But I guess that part of the design process in the "Alpha" brands is to have them thoroughly evaluated by actual oscilloscope experts (who are probably the same guys who produce those very useful application notes) and Rigol doesn't employ that kind of staff or they just don't include that design-evaluate-feedback mechanism in their product development cycle.

I agree that the amount of hate it attracts is really stupid. Mentioning Rigol here is like mentioning Apple in Slashdot  :-//

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on March 27, 2017, 02:13:48 pm
The UI could use some work, particularly the menu system* and the left/right scrolling when zoomed.

(*) Using a rotary knob to go up/down menus and select things when it has up/down arrow buttons next to the menu?  :palm:

Are you sure you want to do that?  Some of the lists are a bit long and it's faster to scroll down with an encoder.
That's one of the big problems with designing a UI; everybody wants something a little different.

Given a decent encoder with detents, the menu selection doesn't bother me.  It works well enough.  Boot time; now there's an issue!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on March 27, 2017, 02:37:18 pm
i became dubious of selling my 1054 after i saw the post of that guy that installed linux on it, hope is not yet lost

Mind sharing a link? I've searched all the forums (and google..) for linux + rigol and/or 1054 and it seems I can't find this post :-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on March 27, 2017, 02:39:43 pm
i became dubious of selling my 1054 after i saw the post of that guy that installed linux on it, hope is not yet lost

Mind sharing a link? I've searched all the forums (and google..) for linux + rigol and/or 1054 and it seems I can't find this post :-)

-> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/wtb-broken-rigol-ds10xxz-scopemainboard/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/wtb-broken-rigol-ds10xxz-scopemainboard/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 27, 2017, 04:18:08 pm
(*) Using a rotary knob to go up/down menus and select things when it has up/down arrow buttons next to the menu?  :palm:
Are you sure you want to do that?  Some of the lists are a bit long and it's faster to scroll down with an encoder.

a) It's simply the wrong paradigm IMHO.
b) Is there a reason we can't have both?

Given an encoder with detents...
...which it doesn't have.

(and would probably cost them $0 to implement)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 27, 2017, 08:54:10 pm
Given an encoder with detents...
...which it doesn't have.

(and would probably cost them $0 to implement)

However, like with the fan, it's a mod that one could make. :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on March 27, 2017, 09:47:39 pm
What about the colors for the channels?

Ick. Why two variation of blue - it's confusing. There are other colors out there Rigol - green, red, brown, orange. I really don't want pink on my scope in any case. How could any serious manufacturer have decided to use those colors? I guess for $400 I suppose.

141 pages ...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 27, 2017, 10:03:52 pm
What about the colors for the channels?
  • Yellow
  • Light blue
  • Pink
  • Dark blue

Ick. Why two variation of blue - it's confusing. There are other colors out there Rigol - green, red, brown, orange. I really don't want pink on my scope in any case. How could any serious manufacturer have decided to use those colors? I guess for $400 I suppose.

Colors?! Come on, xrunner -- I'm sure you can come up with something even more trivial than that!  :P
How about criticizing the color of the enclosure, or maybe the choice of the "Z" suffix in the model designation, or the font they chose for that "Z"?  ::)

If you really want to discuss colors: I am mildly color-blind, and am happy to confirm that your choice of colors (green, red, brown, orange) is about the worst set of four someone could come up with for the about 8% of males affected by that...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 27, 2017, 10:04:49 pm
I haven't been diligently following the firmware hacking thread for this scope, but perhaps one day we'll be able to adjust the colors ourselves. :-/O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on March 27, 2017, 10:08:59 pm
Colors?! Come on, xrunner -- I'm sure you can come up with something even more trivial than that! How bout criticizing the color of the enclosure, or maybe the choice of the "Z" suffix in the model designation, or the font they chose for that "Z"?  :palm:

Give me a few minutes.  :)

Quote
If you really want to discuss colors: I am mildly color-blind, and am happy to confirm that your choice of colors (green, red, brown, orange) is about the worst set of four someone could come up with for the about 8% of males affected by that...

Well I'm kinda bored now, because my latest score hasn't arrived yet (an HP 3478A) so I thought I'd keep the thread going with a color debate.  :popcorn:

What they need is scope skins, choose between about 10 different skins at the time you order.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 27, 2017, 10:10:13 pm
I haven't been diligently following the firmware hacking thread for this scope, but perhaps one day we'll be able to adjust the colors ourselves. :-/O

But then, how do I hack the colors on the front panel and on the probe tips?  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 27, 2017, 10:16:49 pm
I haven't been diligently following the firmware hacking thread for this scope, but perhaps one day we'll be able to adjust the colors ourselves. :-/O

But then, how do I hack the colors on the front panel and on the probe tips?  ;)

Paint, LEDs, etc. Fun!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kcbrown on March 28, 2017, 02:01:42 am
What extra money? I bought this funny box, paid money for it, spent about 2 months dissecting it's programming & GUI based on my ~20year pro experience in GUI/software design. Did gave feedback incl. directly to Rigol, for free (as many others have done before!). Result? 0.

That's good (excellent, really), of course, but feedback isn't the same as up-front design.  You could give similar feedback about other aspects of the scope, but they'd have to incorporate that feedback into the existing design.  Doing that properly would mean they'd need someone there who understands how to do that well, but such a person would essentially have the same qualifications that you have, and if they had such a person then their implementation wouldn't have these shortcomings in the first place.


Quote
It's not about the money.

Of course it is.  You weren't there on their design staff, working on the product from the start, for free, were you?


Quote
It's about some amateurs (regarding GUI design / math at least) getting a high ranking position in company.

Yes, but why do you suppose they put those people in those positions in the first place rather than hiring the proper talent?  The answer is almost certainly at least in part due to economics.  I'm sure there's some politics involved as well (there's no avoiding that), but the economic angle is always there in any company.


Quote
Luckily for them if product is cheap enough there always will be fanboys who will find excuse for every flaw or situation as whole.
So at least can agree with fanboys on one point - I this box insults your intelligence - sell it. It's not going to get better anytime soon.
You only have to spend about 3dB more to get combination of two other products that will do almost everything miles better.

Often, 3dB worth of money is what makes or breaks the budget, particularly for the hobbyist market.

Again, I have to ask, because you didn't answer the question (though it was asked of tooki), how would you expect Rigol to recover their costs of hiring a competent UI person who also has expertise in T&M equipment use?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kcbrown on March 28, 2017, 02:20:52 am
You ask some very good questions, but I'm worried about further derailing this thread by going even farther astray from the concrete product at hand!

Fair enough.


Quote
Most of what you ask is addressed by my prior statement that people will tolerate a bad UI up to a point; Windows is a perfect example of this. It's not as good as Mac, but not so bad as to make most users run and scream.

And how is the Rigol's UI any different?


Quote
You are right that good UIs cost money, and absolutely 10000% correct that the designer must truly understand the task at hand. (Having worked in UX, and having had to spend 6 months immersing myself in library science for one project, I truly cannot agree with you more!) But I think your examples are kinda flawed: Microsoft spends a fortune on UX research and design, but various other factors resulted in bad UIs despite this. Linux is really the example of what happens when there's little investment in UX.

Well, if MS spent that kind of money on the UI of Windows, it certainly doesn't show...

But then, if they did spend that kind of money, then it illustrates nicely that spending money on UI expertise is necessary but not sufficient -- you have to actually make good use of that expertise.

It's not clear to me how much Linux really counts.  It is the way it is because it's mostly a purely volunteer effort.  Because it doesn't compete in commercial terms as a general rule (people can use it or not as they see fit, and don't have to pay directly for it), the normal rules regarding competitiveness and user interface really don't apply to it.  And because it essentially has "evolved" to where it is now, it is supremely difficult to make its UI cohesive, since was never designed with the user experience in mind from the start.

And that brings me to a point that I don't think has really been raised: usability has to be baked in from the beginning.  You can't just paste it on top of something that doesn't have it.  I dare say that Rigol's user interface issues aren't just skin deep -- fixing them would require rearchitecting the UI from the ground up, if only because consistency is one of the necessary traits of a good UI.


Quote
It's hard to find examples of things that are good and cheap and "not derivatives" because the normal progression of technology is for things to begin expensive and then get copied cheaper.

Precisely.


Quote
But look at the context of this discussion: a cheap scope which is clearly "derivative" of more expensive DSOs, and we have people arguing that because it's cheap, we must accept the bad UI.

They're not arguing that we "have" to accept the bad UI.  They're arguing that the UI is the natural outcome of the company putting its resources elsewhere, and that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.  Something would have to give if the company put more resources into the UI than it did.

It doesn't help that user interfaces, like all other aspects of computing, are an "intellectual property" minefield.  Look, for instance, at what Apple did to Samsung over the UI of the phone.

I happen to think that the main reason the Rigol UI is the way it is is because the people who designed it were coders first, and UI designers second.  It takes a specific commitment on the part of the company to hire people who specialize in UI design.


Quote
Nonetheless, I would posit that there's lots of inexpensive software, for example, with excellent UIs. And lots of expensive software (*cough* Eagle *cough*) whose UIs make me want to gouge my eyes out.

Sure.  But again, you have to look at the target market.  The inexpensive software that has good UIs either targets a relatively large market (and thus, the company putting it out can afford the up-front expertise necessary), or is designed and implemented by a company that already has the necessary UI expertise on hand.  Sometimes, the people designing the software happen to already come with a UI-oriented background and thus already have much of the necessary expertise.   So of course, there will be examples where the UI is good, the software relatively inexpensive, and the target market small nonetheless.   But I would regard those cases as exceptional, most especially because commercial software tends to be rushed to release.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: John at the Falls on March 28, 2017, 02:30:26 am
[...]
March 25 2017
I just got my brand new DSO1054 today.
[...]
Firmware is 00.04.04.01  (00.04.04 SP 1)

Obviously: The repealed Version 00.04.01.01 is on delivery.
But still not as update. IIRC because the problems with some older boards. How hard can it be to check the board version in the installer program?

Do anyone know if the coming update version contains something else as the "old board solution"?
(Imagine: The legendary "pluses" error would be corrected...)
Is there something new known?
I´m curious if there will be any advantage in updating the 1054z if it runs already with the software version 00.04.01.01.

BTW: Something known about "LFCal" and "Output" in the expanded SelfCal menue?
Perhaps they are related to the LA and FG option of the 1074z-s?
Or, what are they supposed to do in the 1054z?

Forgot to mention that my board is 0.1.4 (with software ver 00.04.01.01)

The firmware release notes are very clear and simple to read. I will read the notes and if nothing catches my interest, I will not update.

I also built a battery pack for it using 12 18650 Lithium Batteries. Works beautiful.
Posted here on this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-pack-for-rigol-ds1054z/50/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-pack-for-rigol-ds1054z/50/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on March 28, 2017, 02:01:27 pm
You ask some very good questions, but I'm worried about further derailing this thread by going even farther astray from the concrete product at hand!

Fair enough.


Quote
Most of what you ask is addressed by my prior statement that people will tolerate a bad UI up to a point; Windows is a perfect example of this. It's not as good as Mac, but not so bad as to make most users run and scream.

And how is the Rigol's UI any different?


Quote
You are right that good UIs cost money, and absolutely 10000% correct that the designer must truly understand the task at hand. (Having worked in UX, and having had to spend 6 months immersing myself in library science for one project, I truly cannot agree with you more!) But I think your examples are kinda flawed: Microsoft spends a fortune on UX research and design, but various other factors resulted in bad UIs despite this. Linux is really the example of what happens when there's little investment in UX.

Well, if MS spent that kind of money on the UI of Windows, it certainly doesn't show...

But then, if they did spend that kind of money, then it illustrates nicely that spending money on UI expertise is necessary but not sufficient -- you have to actually make good use of that expertise.

It's not clear to me how much Linux really counts.  It is the way it is because it's mostly a purely volunteer effort.  Because it doesn't compete in commercial terms as a general rule (people can use it or not as they see fit, and don't have to pay directly for it), the normal rules regarding competitiveness and user interface really don't apply to it.  And because it essentially has "evolved" to where it is now, it is supremely difficult to make its UI cohesive, since was never designed with the user experience in mind from the start.

And that brings me to a point that I don't think has really been raised: usability has to be baked in from the beginning.  You can't just paste it on top of something that doesn't have it.  I dare say that Rigol's user interface issues aren't just skin deep -- fixing them would require rearchitecting the UI from the ground up, if only because consistency is one of the necessary traits of a good UI.


Quote
It's hard to find examples of things that are good and cheap and "not derivatives" because the normal progression of technology is for things to begin expensive and then get copied cheaper.

Precisely.


Quote
But look at the context of this discussion: a cheap scope which is clearly "derivative" of more expensive DSOs, and we have people arguing that because it's cheap, we must accept the bad UI.

They're not arguing that we "have" to accept the bad UI.  They're arguing that the UI is the natural outcome of the company putting its resources elsewhere, and that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.  Something would have to give if the company put more resources into the UI than it did.

It doesn't help that user interfaces, like all other aspects of computing, are an "intellectual property" minefield.  Look, for instance, at what Apple did to Samsung over the UI of the phone.

I happen to think that the main reason the Rigol UI is the way it is is because the people who designed it were coders first, and UI designers second.  It takes a specific commitment on the part of the company to hire people who specialize in UI design.


Quote
Nonetheless, I would posit that there's lots of inexpensive software, for example, with excellent UIs. And lots of expensive software (*cough* Eagle *cough*) whose UIs make me want to gouge my eyes out.

Sure.  But again, you have to look at the target market.  The inexpensive software that has good UIs either targets a relatively large market (and thus, the company putting it out can afford the up-front expertise necessary), or is designed and implemented by a company that already has the necessary UI expertise on hand.  Sometimes, the people designing the software happen to already come with a UI-oriented background and thus already have much of the necessary expertise.   So of course, there will be examples where the UI is good, the software relatively inexpensive, and the target market small nonetheless.   But I would regard those cases as exceptional, most especially because commercial software tends to be rushed to release.
You realize you're trying to explain UX basics to someone who did UX professionally for years? ;) All valid points, to be sure! But going well afield of the scope of this thread, methinks!

As far as the point of consistency, and needing to reengineer the entire UI to be consistent: I think the measurements UI stands out precisely because it doesn't behave like the rest of the scope's UI (internal consistency), nor any other device UI I've seen (external consistency). I think it would be eminently possible to make the measurements more user friendly without having to redesign the entire product.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on March 28, 2017, 02:08:19 pm
What about the colors for the channels?
  • Yellow
  • Light blue
  • Pink
  • Dark blue

Ick. Why two variation of blue - it's confusing. There are other colors out there Rigol - green, red, brown, orange. I really don't want pink on my scope in any case. How could any serious manufacturer have decided to use those colors? I guess for $400 I suppose.

Colors?! Come on, xrunner -- I'm sure you can come up with something even more trivial than that!  :P
How about criticizing the color of the enclosure, or maybe the choice of the "Z" suffix in the model designation, or the font they chose for that "Z"?  ::)

If you really want to discuss colors: I am mildly color-blind, and am happy to confirm that your choice of colors (green, red, brown, orange) is about the worst set of four someone could come up with for the about 8% of males affected by that...
I also found the choice of dark blue and cyan to be a bad choice!

I don't think xrunner was suggesting green, red, brown, AND orange to replace the current yellow, cyan, magenta, and dark blue, but rather is suggesting that either green, red, brown, OR orange would be a superior substitute for the dark blue color only. (Of course, then you'd have the issue of differentiating yellow from the red, green, brown, or orange!)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 28, 2017, 02:11:32 pm
You realize you're trying to explain UX basics to someone who did UX professionally for years? ;)

Presumably yes -- you had mentioned that once or twice. (Or maybe it was a dozen times or so?)   :P
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on March 28, 2017, 03:00:40 pm
Given an encoder with detents...
...which it doesn't have.

(and would probably cost them $0 to implement)

However, like with the fan, it's a mod that one could make. :-+

Did it the first week.  On consideration, the factory fan is no worse than any other fan (like the one on my Tek 485) and it may not have been worth the effort.  The encoder seems like a better mod.  I can see where some folks wouldn't want to mod a brand new scope but, really, what's to go wrong?  Maybe destroy the PCB?  That's kind of a worst case!  Everything else is all good!

One downside to a very quiet fan is that I leave the scope running for hours at a time.  It is over at 90 degrees to my computer keyboard and once it's out of sight, it's out of mind.

I don't have any other experience with a DSO - zip, nada,...  Therefore, I don't have any objections to the UI.  It works fine.  I get wiggly lines on the screen and they are somewhat meaningful.  I don't expect much more than that.

Would I spend another $500 to get a slick UI?  Nope!  Not even $100.  It just isn't a big deal.  I get wiggly lines and that's all I need.  And, anyway, who decides the definition of 'slick'?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 28, 2017, 04:03:54 pm
and if they had such a person then their implementation wouldn't have these shortcomings in the first place.

Thats a conundrum indeed... Possibly only thing that could shake things up is market pressure (dropping sales) but if people are quite happily buying stuff then things will stay as is. It is important to avoid "whitewash" by "forum gurus". Best give objective advice like yep its cheap, 4 channels, this and that quite good, BUT things 1, 2, 3 are bit problematic, buy if sure you do not need them (working). If the poor noob cant trust forum gurus, who can he trust?

Quote
Of course it is.  You weren't there on their design staff, working on the product from the start, for free, were you?

Well... I can see problems with fixing major stuff. But sometimes little things can change a lot. But yet again this would require some specialist-in-command to understand why something needs to be fixed... And if there is none...  :palm:

Quote
Again, I have to ask, because you didn't answer the question (though it was asked of tooki), how would you expect Rigol to recover their costs of hiring a competent UI person who also has expertise in T&M equipment use?

With Z-box its probably too late. However they surely have next gen product in works. If they continue in same manner with next gen its not gonna end well, especially with A-brands showing interest in hobby market. So if they hire proper UI and Q&A stuff now, might do better in coming years. And good people are not that expensive, just hard to find. Expensive are people giving impression that they are good... They do much better than actually good specialists often quietly sitting years on same job...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kcbrown on March 28, 2017, 04:26:03 pm
and if they had such a person then their implementation wouldn't have these shortcomings in the first place.

Thats a conundrum indeed... Possibly only thing that could shake things up is market pressure (dropping sales) but if people are quite happily buying stuff then things will stay as is. It is important to avoid "whitewash" by "forum gurus". Best give objective advice like yep its cheap, 4 channels, this and that quite good, BUT things 1, 2, 3 are bit problematic, buy if sure you do not need them (working). If the poor noob cant trust forum gurus, who can he trust?

Truth, that.

We see extremes at both ends.  One which sweeps the UI issues under the rug ("what did you expect for $400?") and one which overemphasizes the faults.  The faults are there and are undeniable, but do not make the scope unusable for most purposes traditionally targeted by scopes.  It's almost like Rigol is the Microsoft of oscilloscopes.   :)


Quote
Well... I can see problems with fixing major stuff. But sometimes little things can change a lot. But yet again this would require some specialist-in-command to understand why something needs to be fixed... And if there is none...  :palm:

There are a few things they could fix directly, I'll certainly grant that.  I suppose the main problem from their perspective is: how are they supposed to know if the proposed solution is an improvement if they don't even have the expertise on hand to validate the solution in the first place?  It's not like we're talking about a bug where there exists an objective metric that can be used to validate its presence.  Here, we're talking about user interfaces.   Someone there thought the current implementation was a good idea (bad though it is).  How do you convince them of the error of their ways?

Quote
Quote
Again, I have to ask, because you didn't answer the question (though it was asked of tooki), how would you expect Rigol to recover their costs of hiring a competent UI person who also has expertise in T&M equipment use?

With Z-box its probably too late. However they surely have next gen product in works. If they continue in same manner with next gen its not gonna end well, especially with A-brands showing interest in hobby market.

Well, maybe it will and maybe it won't.  The A brands are still commanding a premium for what you get in terms of functionality (the value they provide is in the level of support, the polish, the UI, and other "intangibles" that make the whole experience better).

As long as the competition insists on charging more for the same functionality, Rigol fits a niche that nobody else seems to be playing in.  I see no evidence that this is changing in the next generation.  And that's a shame.  Any manufacturer could easily steal Rigol's thunder merely by offering a 4 channel 100MHz oscilloscope for $400 that included deep memory, decoding, etc., but was more responsive, more reliable (no freezing or crashing), and had a better UI.   Nobody has stepped up to that plate, and I see no evidence that anyone will.

And if anyone raises objections to the description of the Rigol as a 100MHz 4 channel scope with deep memory, decoding, etc., remember that what matters in the hobbyist market is the actual capability of the device once in the hands of the customer, not the capability as shipped.  Put another way, in the hobbyist market, which is the market we're talking about here, the hacked capabilities are the ones that really matter on the ground.


Quote
So if they hire proper UI and Q&A stuff now, might do better in coming years. And good people are not that expensive, just hard to find. Expensive are people giving impression that they are good... They do much better than actually good specialists often quietly sitting years on same job...

"Hard to find" almost always translates to "expensive" in the market, unless the demand for "hard to find" is low.  I'm not convinced that the demand for solid UI people is quite so low as to keep their price low, but you're a UI guy so you'd have a much better handle on that than I -- presumably.  Here, we're talking about UI people who are intimately familiar with the things one would use a scope for.   I expect that's a very small set of people, and chances are there are very few indeed who aren't already employed by a T&M manufacturer somewhere.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 28, 2017, 04:38:49 pm
And if anyone raises objections to the description of the Rigol as a 100MHz 4 channel scope with deep memory, decoding, etc., remember that what matters in the hobbyist market is the actual capability of the device once in the hands of the customer, not the capability as shipped.  Put another way, in the hobbyist market, which is the market we're talking about here, the hacked capabilities are the ones that really matter on the ground.

Yep. If it wasn't hackable we'd all be buying the $400 GW-Instek. Rigol would have to lower the price to $300 or something to stay in the market.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 28, 2017, 05:10:40 pm
Yep. If it wasn't hackable we'd all be buying the $400 GW-Instek.

GWI 1054B has surprisingly high non-hacked bandwidth. Same with my Pico. Very sharp edge square will show -3dB only at 200MHz, on 100MHz unhacked scope (Many Rigol BW claims are made using square also). Also there is evidence that Rigol is boosting analog bandwidth with cannot-turn-off Sinc function, which is not Sinc function at all. And cannot be turned off for that exact reason - it would reveal true analog bandwidth. So whole bandwidth issue is somewhat in the M-badged BMW 318i class...
But GWI does not have decoding, Picos are bit expensive and more R&D geared etc... So yea... there certainly is place for product that would go for direct attack. Would be excellent for tinkerer-on-the-budget. Might push proper Q&A to entry level...
So think its important to report various issues on the forum - if not the manufacturer then competition can take note and do better. Quite possible Siglent took note with halted X-E launch and now implementing R&S-like features on-the-hurry ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on March 28, 2017, 05:49:13 pm
With Z-box its probably too late. However they surely have next gen product in works. If they continue in same manner with next gen its not gonna end well, especially with A-brands showing interest in hobby market.

this may raise a good point... i don't think i've heard of a new rigol scope in quite some time?

Quote
Expensive are people giving impression that they are good...
OT: wisest words of the day
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 28, 2017, 06:08:08 pm
I expect that's a very small set of people, and chances are there are very few indeed who aren't already employed by a T&M manufacturer somewhere.

Well exactly, one might be already employed. Worst case if employed for long time. High chances one gets paid less than market value. Market actually do not know that person even exists and so on... So I would insist on "hard to find" more than on "expensive". Good specialist is often not good salesman and lacks skills to make himself even properly visible on the market. Not everyone is born YouTube star etc :)

Recently I did meet one inventor who is extremely good in mechatronics but totally incapable of finding matching employer. Inventor refuses to go for boring job, rather stays unemployed. Cutting edge R&D job actually needing his talents - nowhere in sight in this pond-of-a-country. Rather sad situation overall. Gifted him one of my scopes... but probably should have bought ticket to Boston Dynamics office instead :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on March 28, 2017, 08:16:11 pm
Yep. If it wasn't hackable we'd all be buying the $400 GW-Instek.

GWI 1054B has surprisingly high non-hacked bandwidth. Same with my Pico. Very sharp edge square will show -3dB only at 200MHz, on 100MHz unhacked scope (Many Rigol BW claims are made using square also).

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you're trying to say, but that's not how bandwidth is traditionally measured.

Either the 3dB point of a sine wave is used, or the rise time of a rectangular wave is used to derive it.

(I fear I will regret intervening....)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 28, 2017, 09:30:05 pm
(I fear I will regret intervening....)

It's OK, Howard. I've had my share of regrettable intervenings, too. It happens.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kcbrown on March 29, 2017, 02:03:30 am
I expect that's a very small set of people, and chances are there are very few indeed who aren't already employed by a T&M manufacturer somewhere.

Well exactly, one might be already employed. Worst case if employed for long time. High chances one gets paid less than market value. Market actually do not know that person even exists and so on... So I would insist on "hard to find" more than on "expensive". Good specialist is often not good salesman and lacks skills to make himself even properly visible on the market. Not everyone is born YouTube star etc :)

Right.  Which means the primary market for T&M UI expertise resides amongst those who are already employed.

Now, what enticement can a company that needs more such people offer to people who are already employed?   I think we know the standard answer to that: more money.


Quote
Recently I did meet one inventor who is extremely good in mechatronics but totally incapable of finding matching employer. Inventor refuses to go for boring job, rather stays unemployed. Cutting edge R&D job actually needing his talents - nowhere in sight in this pond-of-a-country. Rather sad situation overall. Gifted him one of my scopes... but probably should have bought ticket to Boston Dynamics office instead :-DD

No doubt that could have helped.  :D

Actually, you indirectly bring up a good point here: geographic location matters.  In what locations can most of the UI expertise be found?  I suspect it'll be in locations where UI expertise is routinely used.  Places like Silicon Valley.   But here, we're talking about Rigol.  They're in China.  While I expect that eventually such expertise will be more readily available there, as with anything else, it'll take time for them to ramp up.  That doesn't help a company like Rigol that needs such expertise now.

In light of that, it might be a bit remarkable that the Rigol UI isn't worse than it is...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CatalinaWOW on March 29, 2017, 04:32:59 am

No doubt that could have helped.  :D

Actually, you indirectly bring up a good point here: geographic location matters.  In what locations can most of the UI expertise be found?  I suspect it'll be in locations where UI expertise is routinely used.  Places like Silicon Valley.   But here, we're talking about Rigol.  They're in China.  While I expect that eventually such expertise will be more readily available there, as with anything else, it'll take time for them to ramp up.  That doesn't help a company like Rigol that needs such expertise now.

In light of that, it might be a bit remarkable that the Rigol UI isn't worse than it is...

While I am sure that many elements of good UI design transcend cultures, I suspect that some elements are culture dependent.  It would be surprising if it weren't since music, art and other forms of interaction are significantly different between cultures.  Perhaps for someone embedded in Chinese culture the 1054Z is better than European culture derivatives find it to be.  And surely they have as much capacity to disdain other cultural views as we do.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on March 29, 2017, 05:10:19 am

While I am sure that many elements of good UI design transcend cultures, I suspect that some elements are culture dependent. 

Think about the Hakko Fx-888 UI. The buttons seems intended to be used in right to left order, and not from left to right. Like a manga.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on March 29, 2017, 06:00:47 am
While I am sure that many elements of good UI design transcend cultures, I suspect that some elements are culture dependent.  It would be surprising if it weren't since music, art and other forms of interaction are significantly different between cultures.  Perhaps for someone embedded in Chinese culture the 1054Z is better than European culture derivatives find it to be.  And surely they have as much capacity to disdain other cultural views as we do.
The UI is not very well thought-out.  Menus don't seem to be logically grouped, and functions nested within sub-menus makes the operation difficult.  I don't think this is a cultural artefact -- it's just poor design.

The more problematic issue is how slow it is to update when using, though.  I just calibrated two of the MSO1074Z models, and they were a huge PITA trying to set the vertical position and trigger levels -- so slow to update that they're bordering on unusable.

Perhaps this isn't a big deal for hobbyist use, but I would not want to use one of these Rigols.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 29, 2017, 10:12:57 am
Think about the Hakko Fx-888 UI.

I'd rather not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 29, 2017, 10:50:25 am
Yep. If it wasn't hackable we'd all be buying the $400 GW-Instek.

GWI 1054B has surprisingly high non-hacked bandwidth. Same with my Pico. Very sharp edge square will show -3dB only at 200MHz, on 100MHz unhacked scope (Many Rigol BW claims are made using square also).

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you're trying to say, but that's not how bandwidth is traditionally measured.

Either the 3dB point of a sine wave is used, or the rise time of a rectangular wave is used to derive it.

While it is not usually a problem with low bandwidth oscilloscopes, the relationship between the -3dB bandwidth and transition time depends on the shape of the passband so measuring only the transition time may not be sufficient.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 29, 2017, 10:57:26 am
Think about the Hakko Fx-888 UI.
I'd rather not.

 ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 29, 2017, 02:57:05 pm
Think about the Hakko Fx-888 UI.
I'd rather not.

 ;)

How do we get twenty functions into two buttons?  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 29, 2017, 03:18:24 pm
While it is not usually a problem with low bandwidth oscilloscopes, the relationship between the -3dB bandwidth and transition time depends on the shape of the passband so measuring only the transition time may not be sufficient.

Actually I did it properly also, with ETS and all, real -3dB point is 140MHz, cross checks with pure sine.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1153233/#msg1153233 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1153233/#msg1153233)
Mentioned 200MHz with square on purpose, because Z-box owners often do not have 100MHz+ high fidelity sine sources and will do their bw testing with square. Point being that if classical frontend unhacked 100MHz will do -3dB at 200MHz with square, then 50MHz would probably do -3dB at 100MHz etc... Meaning its not like you cannot measure timing related things @100MHz quite ok with any proper 50MHz scope. In short: this whole bw hackability thing is bit overrated in this case (especially considering Sinc trickery). Real point of hacking is IMHO more in getting all other stuff unlocked.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Neo2199 on March 29, 2017, 04:46:41 pm
Just out of curiosity. Did someone found some discounted deal for this scope? I am trying to extend my tiny lab. Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 29, 2017, 05:52:00 pm
But how am I ever going to be satisfied with my Rigol's UI now... it doesn't even include "Whack" triggering !
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on March 29, 2017, 05:53:19 pm
How do we get twenty functions into two buttons?  :palm:

With a bonsUI.  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 29, 2017, 05:55:38 pm
But how am I ever going to be satisfied with my Rigol's UI now... it doesn't even include "Whack" triggering !

Right -- instead it has that old-fashioned "force trigger" button...
Much less intuitive, and lacking the haptic feedback. Disapponting!  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 29, 2017, 06:32:02 pm
At least it has "Russian trigger". In Russia they use it to trigger reception on old CRT TV and many other devices including drunk mates :-+
https://youtu.be/WE9pYUVvr00?t=10m49s
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 29, 2017, 08:24:21 pm
While it is not usually a problem with low bandwidth oscilloscopes, the relationship between the -3dB bandwidth and transition time depends on the shape of the passband so measuring only the transition time may not be sufficient.

Actually I did it properly also, with ETS and all, real -3dB point is 140MHz, cross checks with pure sine.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1153233/#msg1153233 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1153233/#msg1153233)
Mentioned 200MHz with square on purpose, because Z-box owners often do not have 100MHz+ high fidelity sine sources and will do their bw testing with square. Point being that if classical frontend unhacked 100MHz will do -3dB at 200MHz with square, then 50MHz would probably do -3dB at 100MHz etc...

This does not follow.  I did the bandwidth calculations based on Dave's reverse engineered schematics and posted the results on the forum (good luck finding the post though) for the DS1000Z series and they have no relationship to the maximum bandwidth.  They agreed closely with the specifications.

If you want to know the bandwidth with different settings of the bandwidth limit filters, then measure them.  Measure the transition times and transient response as well.

Unfortunately as you point out, most DS1000Z series users are not equipped to make useful measurements of bandwidth, transition time, or transient response.  Back when this was an issue for me as well, one of my early acquisitions was a sampling oscilloscope so that I could calibrate my sources used for these measurements.

Quote
Meaning its not like you cannot measure timing related things @100MHz quite ok with any proper 50MHz scope.

Sure you can.  (1) I do not use my 50 MHz oscilloscope very much except for crushing zombies but often use my 100 MHz oscilloscopes to measure timing (but not transition time) down to 1 nanosecond.

Quote
In short: this whole bw hackability thing is bit overrated in this case (especially considering Sinc trickery).  Real point of hacking is IMHO more in getting all other stuff unlocked.

I am aware of the sinc trickery in these oscilloscopes but I suspect it has more to do with Rigol sacrificing accuracy for update rate.

The reason I suggest making both measurements especially with a DS1054Z hacked to 100 MHz is that if the hacked passband is not a single pole rolloff which is likely, (2) then its 3dB bandwidth will not match its transition time based on the 0.35 rule.  Lots of much higher bandwidth oscilloscopes are this way but it is unusual at 100 MHz.

(1)  "A 50MHz oscilloscope cannot track a 5ns rise time pulse, but it can measure a 2ns delay between two such events." - Jim Williams, Linear Technology application note 47, page 20.

(2) I base this off of Rigol's transistor selection and topology of the input amplifier shown in the reverse engineered schematics that Dave provided.  The front end has an unusual arrangement of switched equalization that implies Rigol had problems meeting the 100 MHz bandwidth specification.  I would expect this to result in a peaked response compromising the transient response among other things and some of the published transient response tests do show something unusual going on in the bandwidth hacked oscilloscopes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 29, 2017, 08:57:57 pm
This does not follow.


Maybe little mixup. Test was with my new 100MHz Pico, which has "classic" frontend AFAIK.
However dug up my old DS1054Z (hacked) test:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/opinions-on-gw-instek-scopes/?action=dlattach;attach=290762)

If just look at it and presume Sinc=OFF is actual analog response of DS1000Z then its roughly -5dB at @100MHz, which they compensate with non-standard Sinc producing bit silly amplitude gain @100MHz with Sinc=ON. Input in this test is perfect sine. There is theory around that Sinc=OFF applies some lowpass filter but I do not buy it. Rather Sinc=ON applies artificial bandwidth boost. Actually quite logical thing to do at first glance but easy to lose track with reality of actual input signal...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on March 29, 2017, 09:05:04 pm
It all comes down to what you need it for. Me, I am into tinkering with the lower range of MCUs and most of my troubleshooting involves looking at signals in the kHz range. The four channels of the Rigol come in very handy for these tasks and on-screen decryption of serial protocol, SPI and I2C is a cool feature to have (yes, a Salea logic analyzer might be suitable as well, but that is another story).
For me, this is somewhere between a hobby and my profession as I do not develop electronics for a living, but I am learning a lot from tinkering what I can then incorporate into useful conversation with the actual developing engineers.

For professional use, there is always the range of bigger, better, more reliable hardware you should rely on. There is no free lunch. Cheap tools might get the job done, but I still need to see one example, where this has led to actually saving money. In the maker community niche on the other hand it’s 400€ well spent (and can not be specified as a cheap tool IMO).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 29, 2017, 09:17:12 pm
It all comes down to what you need it for.

Quite correct, indeed helpful device for mainly digital tinkering. However time to time its described as real 100MHz analog scope and cannot fully agree with that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 29, 2017, 10:19:00 pm
If just look at it and presume Sinc=OFF is actual analog response of DS1000Z then its roughly -5dB at @100MHz, which they compensate with non-standard Sinc producing bit silly amplitude gain @100MHz with Sinc=ON. Input in this test is perfect sine. There is theory around that Sinc=OFF applies some lowpass filter but I do not buy it. Rather Sinc=ON applies artificial bandwidth boost. Actually quite logical thing to do at first glance but easy to lose track with reality of actual input signal...

Are you making the measurement through the Rigol's automatic measurement functions?  That might be an additional problem with Rigol's display record measurements.

Sinc interpolation should have no effect on a 3dB bandwidth measurement but as you point out, Rigol's sinc interpolation is questionable.  It should not affect the bandwidth measurement even if aliasing or undersampling is present; undersampling to produce a low frequency signal is the same as a real low frequency signal except for how the analog frequency response affects it.  (1) Deliberate aliasing on the Rigol might even be the way to go to avoid problems with its weird sinc filter but that is not going to be much help if the results are different than non-aliased usage.

(1) This can be used for calibrating DSO digitizers but the procedure is headache inducing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CatalinaWOW on March 29, 2017, 10:21:08 pm
Another way to judge it is that it is a huge step up from my venerable Heathkit 2 channel scope, with sort of 2 MHz bandwidth.  Costs a lot less than the Heathkit did if you adjust for inflation, and I didn't have to assemble it.  Is it a perfect scope.  No way.  But then I haven't encountered one of those at work or anywhere else, at any price.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on March 30, 2017, 01:28:58 am
It is not only what you want it for, but also what are your expectations.   For someone that has used and /or owned new or used top end scopes, it may very well be a letdown.  If you are like me, where   the last scope you used and owned was a Tek 535a 30 years ago, the Rigol is a incredible thing to use.  I'm pleased with the scope.  Of course I see better scopes out there, but the Rigol was affordable to me now.    In the future, I will probably outgrow it and want something better, but it will fill my needs learning and most things fairly well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 30, 2017, 06:08:27 am
If just look at it and presume Sinc=OFF is actual analog response of DS1000Z then its roughly -5dB at @100MHz, which they compensate with non-standard Sinc producing bit silly amplitude gain @100MHz with Sinc=ON. Input in this test is perfect sine. There is theory around that Sinc=OFF applies some lowpass filter but I do not buy it. Rather Sinc=ON applies artificial bandwidth boost. Actually quite logical thing to do at first glance but easy to lose track with reality of actual input signal...

I don't understand what problem you see here? You have chosen to sample at only 2.5x the signal frequency (at 100 MHz), so of course the sin(x)/x correction becomes relevant. If you switch it off, I assume the scope reconstructs the signal by simple "connect the dots" interpolation of the samples. That, of course, will reduce the apparent amplitude since the peaks are not properly reconstructed. This has nothing to do with "some lowpass filter", but only with the crude interpolation that is used (by definition) in the absence of sin(x)/x interpolation. Once you enable sin(x)/x interpolation, the signal and its amplitude get properly reconstructed, as expected.

If you want to assess the bandwidth of the scope's analog front end, I would suggest enabling a single channel only, to sample at 1 GHz. That will minimize the effects of interpolation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on March 30, 2017, 06:16:22 am

I don't understand what problem you see here? You have chosen to sample at only 2.5x the signal frequency (at 100 MHz), so of course the sin(x)/x correction becomes relevant. If you switch it off, I assume the scope reconstructs the signal by simple "connect the dots" interpolation of the samples.

except it doesn't
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 30, 2017, 06:47:31 am
I don't understand what problem you see here? You have chosen to sample at only 2.5x the signal frequency (at 100 MHz), so of course the sin(x)/x correction becomes relevant. If you switch it off, I assume the scope reconstructs the signal by simple "connect the dots" interpolation of the samples.
except it doesn't

Could you elaborate on that, please? My comment was intended to be constructive; yours does not help me so far. Thanks for explaining.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on March 30, 2017, 07:28:40 am
Rigol Z box "Sin(x)/x" works totally wrong. THis is demonstrated many times. Starting with "famous" toy DS1052E.  They have always done it wrong and they do not listen anybody because in Beijing they think that Beijing man is always right and others wrong. 

Rigol flush out real sample points. They violate all basics how real Sinc function need work.

Ten years they knock they head to great wall and never listen anybody for repair it.

In T&M instrument this is unbelievable error. Made for nice image instead of try follow data. Perhaps they are "green" and thay have adopted "selected  facts" policy.

I will not anymore repeat my tests for show this error again and again.

In case when sinc do not draw thru real raw sample points it is joke. I understand if this is art drawing machine but they call this test and measurement instrument. They do not respect real ADC samples - only true data.   Least they need correct menu text. Instead of Sin(x)/x there need read Smooth.

Show even one evidence it works right.

More fun, user can not even turn off this bullshit. (exept if 4 channel simultaneously in use - afaik)
How about dots mode. Do you see alone and only ADC produced real raw sample dots or...


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2017, 07:47:36 am
Could you elaborate on that, please? My comment was intended to be constructive; yours does not help me so far. Thanks for explaining.
I see you've found rf-loop's work and for those that have not seen it already:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/)

It just follows on from other work this long sever member did many years ago, I think in his first post on the forum.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on March 30, 2017, 08:04:38 am
I don't understand what problem you see here? You have chosen to sample at only 2.5x the signal frequency (at 100 MHz), so of course the sin(x)/x correction becomes relevant. If you switch it off, I assume the scope reconstructs the signal by simple "connect the dots" interpolation of the samples.
except it doesn't

Could you elaborate on that, please? My comment was intended to be constructive; yours does not help me so far. Thanks for explaining.
yes, sorry for that. the "sinc interpolation" button is enabled only if you have more than two channels active, otherwise it says "ON" and is greyed out.
pressing it doesn't do anything anyway, as the sinc interpolation is not turned off: you can't have linear interpolation on this scope.
then rf-loop and others will explain in more detail how it's flawed but basically not only you can't turn it off (other than switching from vectors to dots), the reconstructed line doesn't pass through the samples
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on March 30, 2017, 08:18:44 am
Yep. If it wasn't hackable we'd all be buying the $400 GW-Instek.

GWI 1054B has surprisingly high non-hacked bandwidth. Same with my Pico. Very sharp edge square will show -3dB only at 200MHz, on 100MHz unhacked scope (Many Rigol BW claims are made using square also).

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you're trying to say, but that's not how bandwidth is traditionally measured.

Either the 3dB point of a sine wave is used, or the rise time of a rectangular wave is used to derive it.

While it is not usually a problem with low bandwidth oscilloscopes, the relationship between the -3dB bandwidth and transition time depends on the shape of the passband so measuring only the transition time may not be sufficient.

Indeed, that is why I stated "is used to derive it", to be deliberately vague. Now I could have gone on about Gaussian and brick wall filters, and I did originally write a clause to that effect, but felt that, in view of the level of the discussion, it was adding unnecessary confusion so I removed it. There is an Agilent document describing it 5988-8008EN.pdf

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 08:25:21 am
Once you enable sin(x)/x interpolation, the signal and its amplitude get properly reconstructed, as expected.

::) Observe, normal 100MHz scope with exactly same sampling rate options 1-0.5-0.25GSa/s + 20GSa/s ETS:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1153800/#msg1153800 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1153800/#msg1153800)
Relative amplitude error @100MHz below 0.5dB across all sampling rates. Difference @250MSa/s between Sinc ON|OFF is below 0.025dB or 0.3%. Which can only mean that in both cases it does calculation based off actual sample points and Sinc is just for CGI show (like it should be).

However theres another matter... I suddenly remembered that Rigol has quite long autocal procedure which is done with open BNC connectors. I seem to remember people have gotten less-than-perfect cal results. Now with "russian trigger" feature on the table. What if you cannot fire machine guns and maybe even stroke a cat on table where DS1000Z is doing autocal? Would do experiment but do not own unit any longer.
When I did autocal back in the day I instinctively did leave it alone in peace & quiet and cal turned out pretty ok.
Edit: In other thread there is opinion that this is not issue, because hopefully all cal related is done with internal low impedance sources. So dunno, many other gear has "open" part in non full-auto cal procedure  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 30, 2017, 08:27:29 am
Thanks rf-loop and tautech! I have read up on rf-loop's analysis now, and agree that the DS1054Z implementation seems very wrong indeed.
Strangely enough, Rigol seems to get it right on the DS2000 series:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg519934/#msg519934 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg519934/#msg519934)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on March 30, 2017, 08:39:40 am
It is not only what you want it for, but also what are your expectations.   For someone that has used and /or owned new or used top end scopes, it may very well be a letdown.  If you are like me, where   the last scope you used and owned was a Tek 535a 30 years ago, the Rigol is a incredible thing to use.  I'm pleased with the scope.  Of course I see better scopes out there, but the Rigol was affordable to me now.    In the future, I will probably outgrow it and want something better, but it will fill my needs learning and most things fairly well.

Actually I think it works both ways. The Rigol (MSO1074Z-S) is my field scope/swiss army knife, it works well enough for almost all field work I do. At the bench I have a selection of scopes well beyond the capabilities of the Rigol, but none of them are as compact, convenient and feature packed for the field. Yes the Rigol has its limitations, and I've found a few bugs myself, but I've found similar unwanted features on top tier TE too.

I'm pretty sure most of us are able to know when something doesn't look right, and know to question and validate the results. Whether it's a Rigol or Keysight/Tek/LeCroy/R&S, you should always be in a position to be able to know about what to expect, and use the scope to verify. When it doesn't look right you need to be able to analyse and troubleshoot your findings. Most of the time it will be the DUT itself, but sometimes anomalies will be a problem with your test regime, and occasionally that will be the tool you are using. I am certain most of us are capable of figuring out which it is.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on March 30, 2017, 09:16:27 am
Instead i think that many of us (hanging in this thread) do not know if something look right or not, i know i certainly didn't when i got my Z. Let's not forget this scope is aimed at hobbyist/students.. it is important to remind that there are flaws that cannot be swept under the rug by the "it's only 400" broom. The flaws are there, period.
you have to know which are so when you question what is on the screen you can decide if the flaw or the bug is affecting your measurement or not and in which amount.

stupid example, scope Z displays garbage on serial decode while scope P on same settings displays correct data. is scope Z bugged? no. it works differently. Now i know it and i can correct my settings accordingly, unless this way of working is not acceptable for me
and so on..

obviously (or not) this is true for all equipment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 30, 2017, 12:12:44 pm
Instead i think that many of us (hanging in this thread) do not know if something look right or not, i know i certainly didn't when i got my Z. Let's not forget this scope is aimed at hobbyist/students.. it is important to remind that there are flaws that cannot be swept under the rug by the "it's only 400" broom. The flaws are there, period.
you have to know which are so when you question what is on the screen you can decide if the flaw or the bug is affecting your measurement or not and in which amount.

This is true of all test gear, not just the ones you have a personal mania against.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on March 30, 2017, 12:25:34 pm
I'm pretty sure most of us are able to know when something doesn't look right, and know to question and validate the results. Whether it's a Rigol or Keysight/Tek/LeCroy/R&S, you should always be in a position to be able to know about what to expect, and use the scope to verify. When it doesn't look right you need to be able to analyse and troubleshoot your findings. Most of the time it will be the DUT itself, but sometimes anomalies will be a problem with your test regime, and occasionally that will be the tool you are using. I am certain most of us are capable of figuring out which it is.
Well said - but it is always amazing how many people believe a display, especially a digital one.... I think it may be a religion (The LED G-d; or is it a segment g-d?).

In fact, I'd assume a well run university lab (especially an EE101 level) will want an arbitrarily crippled capability scope to test the knowledge of the students. Something for which you can easily build test scenarios (with cheap CMOS devices) where the scope will mislead you. What did you expect to see?; what did you see?; why?

Hypothesis: Perhaps some of the target market for the DS1Z is education?

(They did that to us at the Technion when scopes were all Tektronix and all analog and thus had few limitations, NOT; Alt; chop; triggering, BW, dynamic range etc... poor students... BTW - Doing labs with physicists are even worse: what are you measuring: are you sure that is the drift velocity of the minority carriers??? How are you sure?)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on March 30, 2017, 12:30:12 pm
Instead i think that many of us (hanging in this thread) do not know if something look right or not, i know i certainly didn't when i got my Z. Let's not forget this scope is aimed at hobbyist/students.. it is important to remind that there are flaws that cannot be swept under the rug by the "it's only 400" broom. The flaws are there, period.
you have to know which are so when you question what is on the screen you can decide if the flaw or the bug is affecting your measurement or not and in which amount.

This is true of all test gear, not just the ones you have a personal mania against.

correct. i'll edit previous post to add the obvious
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on March 30, 2017, 01:39:24 pm
I am trying to rack my brain looking for an excellent piece of kit I worked with in the past. Just as a playful way to juxtapose the Rigol with "perfection".

I did semiconductor and RF work in the University - so Anritsu, HP, EESOF (prior to becoming HP), all kinds of power meters, Newport, Mini Circuits, Watkins Johnson, etc. Nada. All need tons of workarounds...

I did Naval testing for a long time: Tons of HP, Flukes, Bruel & Kjaer, Krohn-Hite, ITC, Tabor, and many others. Nada - We would amplify and then attenuate because the dynamic range of the inputs sucked etc.....

The only thing I can think that even comes close to being perfect (and even that suffers from parallax problems) is a 30cm ruler.

Can anyone think of a T&M equipment that isn't highly compromised (as in no bugs and no way to misinterpret the result etc.)?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CatalinaWOW on March 30, 2017, 01:40:27 pm
While adding to the obvious, using ANY instrument at the limit of its capabilities should be done with timidity/caution/low confidence.  When you walk on the edge of a cliff there is much to go wrong.

So far that hasn't been much of an issue for me.  I have had much use of the scope well within the boundaries of it's capabilities.  A few cases where the need was so far outside its capabilities that there was no danger of confusion.  And a very few cases where it took some skull sweat to get useful information out of a scope that was obviously one foot over the edge of the cliff.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on March 30, 2017, 02:11:41 pm
I think Scopes are going the way computers did over time. Back in the days of DOS/Windows 3.1, the user had to have a much better understanding of the computer and had to do a lot of things manually. Now computers are used by a huge amount of people where the majority have no idea of what's actually going on in the background.
I notice exactly the same trend with scopes. Back in University, the newest cutting egde scope we had was the Tektronix 2465, which had just been released around that time. There was no Auto buttons, no decoding, no auto-measurements and as for colours... Green is fine for all 4 channels and the limited readouts the scope offered. But we were taught every detail of the scope and how to take measurements. The closest thing to "Auto" was the "Find Trace" button. So you either really deeply understood the instrument or it was pretty much useless.
Today people expect the scope to almost do everything for them and do it perfectly, and I don't think newer enthusiasts are really spending the time required to fully understand how it all works and how to extract the information they want to measure. I really like all  the fancy new options that the Rigol (and other) scopes offer (and yes I really own one), but I still don't trust anything that I haven't configured myself.
I have a feeling that many of the "naysayers" are of the newer generation, who put way too much trust in the scopes abilities and have expectations, that many of the older users don't. A scope is a tool, the capability to take accurate measurements should come from the user.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on March 30, 2017, 03:29:16 pm
I think Scopes are going the way computers did over time. Back in the days of DOS/Windows 3.1, the user had to have a much better understanding of the computer and had to do a lot of things manually. Now computers are used by a huge amount of people where the majority have no idea of what's actually going on in the background.
I notice exactly the same trend with scopes. Back in University, the newest cutting egde scope we had was the Tektronix 2465, which had just been released around that time. There was no Auto buttons, no decoding, no auto-measurements and as for colours... Green is fine for all 4 channels and the limited readouts the scope offered. But we were taught every detail of the scope and how to take measurements. The closest thing to "Auto" was the "Find Trace" button. So you either really deeply understood the instrument or it was pretty much useless.
Today people expect the scope to almost do everything for them and do it perfectly, and I don't think newer enthusiasts are really spending the time required to fully understand how it all works and how to extract the information they want to measure. I really like all  the fancy new options that the Rigol (and other) scopes offer (and yes I really own one), but I still don't trust anything that I haven't configured myself.
I have a feeling that many of the "naysayers" are of the newer generation, who put way too much trust in the scopes abilities and have expectations, that many of the older users don't. A scope is a tool, the capability to take accurate measurements should come from the user.
Automation is usually an excellent way to reduce the need for skills and ability. Unfortunately not demanding skills tends to make them wither, and then people can't understand why the automation isn't doing what they expect. :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 04:04:26 pm
I have a feeling that many of the "naysayers" are of the newer generation, who put way too much trust in the scopes abilities and have expectations, that many of the older users don't. A scope is a tool, the capability to take accurate measurements should come from the user.

Counting photons instead of lambs before sleep? ::) User wo superpowers cannot compensate for handicapped design. My Z bite the bullet because it took away even theoretical possibility to take accurate measurements by skilled user (due to scrapping raw data and messed up statistics, all in the name of nice looking CGI). Now with new scope I can do timing stuff down to sample jitter (3ps RMS) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1156850/#msg1156850).  Needs bit "hacking" but at least possible. I expect this from any scope - delivering to full hardware capability. Even little AD2 tries hard to deliver max it can. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/msg1145910/#msg1145910)

Exact reason why sold my Subaru. Whats the point of symmetrical AWD if cannot turn off stability control? Only car where I ever felt need for some electronic assistance was F1.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on March 30, 2017, 04:53:13 pm
I am not sure I understand the rationalizing behind the need of a scope to deliver the full capability of its hardware. Why?

I admit they need to deliver to specs, but the whole idea of lock keys and having multiple models is that they are selling different capabilities and specs at additional price points.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 05:45:33 pm
I am not sure I understand the rationalizing behind the need of a scope to deliver the full capability of its hardware. Why?
I admit they need to deliver to specs, but the whole idea of lock keys and having multiple models is that they are selling different capabilities and specs at additional price points.

:-// Nobody questions hacking DS1000Z for features or bandwidth. I like to push scopes for accuracy. Seems that people with CRO background hardly realize quite insane accuracy that can be achieved based on processing of true unaltered sample points - by means of mathematical / statistical gain. In vertical can do far more accurate than 1% DC even with 8bit ADC (using sampling noise). In horizontal can do picosecond timings with entry level and femtoseconds with better models. Its just like long memory single shot, completely beyond what similar analog bw CRO could do. Maybe someday it will sink in. Or maybe not because less excuse to buy frequency counters and other narrow functionality stuff...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NorthGuy on March 30, 2017, 06:06:34 pm
In vertical can do far more accurate than 1% DC even with 8bit ADC (using sampling noise).

According to the specs, the accuracy is about 4% of full scale - 5 bits. I don't think there's any reason for them to understate it, but who knows, I'm not a marketer.

The resolution is 8 bits, so (8 - 5) = 3 bits are already redundant. With oversampling, you can increase resolution further, but this will not improve accuracy.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 30, 2017, 06:22:25 pm
In vertical can do far more accurate than 1% DC even with 8bit ADC (using sampling noise).

According to the specs, the accuracy is about 4% of full scale - 5 bits. I don't think there's any reason for them to understate it, but who knows, I'm not a marketer.

The resolution is 8 bits, so (8 - 5) = 3 bits are already redundant. With oversampling, you can increase resolution further, but this will not improve accuracy.

I assume MrWolf was referring to the PicoScope, the only true digital data acquisition system, which probably has better specs.  ;)

Agree that only precision (resolution) can be improved by oversampling, not accuracy -- so MrWolf's terminology was not precise (or accurate? ;)). I would not say that the additional three bits are "redundant", though. While they do not help with accuracy, they do improve the resolution.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 06:24:06 pm
The resolution is 8 bits, so (8 - 5) = 3 bits are already redundant. With oversampling, you can increase resolution further, but this will not improve accuracy.

With oversampling you can improve accuracy also, taking advantage of sampling noise. 0.1% of range no problem with scope DC spec +-3% of full scale, if have access to unaltered data.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 06:32:41 pm
I assume MrWolf was referring to the PicoScope, the only true digital data acquisition system, which probably has better specs.  ;)

Why only, also have AD2 - very accurate thing. Suppose same with Teks, GWI etc. Its normal with any scope operating with raw data and proper floating point math. I would gladly have Tek MDO4000C, just ask for address where send to  :-DD

While they do not help with accuracy, they do improve the resolution.

Im not native english, help me out what you mean. So after performing calibration and getting values comparable to good DMM its somehow still not accurate, only high res? Even when repeatable etc... :( Bummer, maybe secretly DMMs are also only high res and show right values just by coincidence?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/?action=dlattach;attach=297836)

Heres little earlier test, where AD2 also present. As you can see with proper techniques scopes deliver comparable to simpler DMMs in vertical.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-chinese-ad584-voltage-reference-legit-cal-data-let's-find-out!/?action=dlattach;attach=297583)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 30, 2017, 06:34:03 pm
The resolution is 8 bits, so (8 - 5) = 3 bits are already redundant. With oversampling, you can increase resolution further, but this will not improve accuracy.

With oversampling you can improve accuracy also, taking advantage of sampling noise. 0.1% of range no problem with scope DC spec +-3% of full scale, if have access to unaltered data.

Huh? In my understanding, accuracy is always limited by systematic measurement errors, e.g. correct amplification factors etc.. Oversampling can only improve precision (statistical deviation). See Wikipedia's definition under "accuracy and precision" for example:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Accuracy_and_precision.svg)

EDIT: Saw your further post, where you also mention calibration (in addition to oversampling). That will help, indeed: Use oversampling to improve your precision, then use calibration to improve your accuracy. Then hope that the scope does not drift out of calibration...  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 06:47:38 pm
Then hope that the scope does not drift out of calibration...  ;)

Thats good point. Initially was afraid that it will drift away, but actually all you need is proper warmup at least 0.5h. Before publishing tests did re-check on next day with same reloaded cal after warmup. There is still drift when warm but pretty small. So yes, pushing the limits - but performance is repeatable - can be used in practice.
Edit: Note my tests are all done in scope interface, real time, not offline with MatLab etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NorthGuy on March 30, 2017, 07:57:03 pm
Of course you can improve the accuracy by calibration, but the specifications usually list the accuracy of a calibrated instrument.

There are many factors which affect accuracy. Accuracy determined over a range of conditions will be worse than the accuracy at 25C. Different units of the same scope will have different characteristics and the specs specify the worst case.

If you have an accurate reference, you certainly can perform your own characterizations, which wouldn't be any worse than the characterization by the manufacturer. But I doubt it is better than 1% for DS1054Z.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 30, 2017, 09:14:44 pm
I see you've found rf-loop's work and for those that have not seen it already:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/)

It just follows on from other work this long sever member did many years ago, I think in his first post on the forum.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/)

Thanks for those links, tautech. I hadn't seen those threads before (they were prior to my joining).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: stuartmp on March 30, 2017, 11:49:25 pm
Hi All,

This is my first post to this forum and thread.

I am interested in upgrading my current oscilloscope and I have been looking at the Rigol DS1054Z

I watched Dave's video EEVblog #703 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Review Summary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETCOhzU1O5A&t=4s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETCOhzU1O5A&t=4s)

However I'm confused about something you said at 7:25 on this clip.

You say that there is no Software or hardware filter.

I am confused because I read in the manual on page 135 - chapter ch6-21 on Filters
http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/MSO_DS1000Z_Plus_UserGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/MSO_DS1000Z_Plus_UserGuide_EN.pdf)

It says the MSO1000Z/DS1000Z provides 4 types of filters (Low Pass Filter, High Pass Filter,
Band Pass Filter and Band Stop Filter). The specified frequencies can be filtered by setting the bandwidth.

Can someone please try and clear this up for me as I am used to using a scope with these types of filters.


Thanks

Stuart
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on March 31, 2017, 12:43:24 am
If you switch it off, I assume the scope reconstructs the signal by simple "connect the dots" interpolation of the samples. That, of course, will reduce the apparent amplitude since the peaks are not properly reconstructed.

With one exception, without sin(x)/x interpolation, the peak and RMS values do not change with sampling rate whether aliasing is present or not.  The exception is when synchronous sampling produces a DC or very low frequency result which exceeds the record length but that is not relevant here.

I have little idea whether Rigol's automatic measurements work correctly in this case though.  I suspect not and I know the automatic RMS measurement does not under certain conditions.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on March 31, 2017, 02:57:09 am
Hi All,

This is my first post to this forum and thread.

I am interested in upgrading my current oscilloscope and I have been looking at the Rigol DS1054Z

I watched Dave's video EEVblog #703 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Review Summary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETCOhzU1O5A&t=4s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETCOhzU1O5A&t=4s)

However I'm confused about something you said at 7:25 on this clip.

You say that there is no Software or hardware filter.

I am confused because I read in the manual on page 135 - chapter ch6-21 on Filters
http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/MSO_DS1000Z_Plus_UserGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/MSO_DS1000Z_Plus_UserGuide_EN.pdf)

It says the MSO1000Z/DS1000Z provides 4 types of filters (Low Pass Filter, High Pass Filter,
Band Pass Filter and Band Stop Filter). The specified frequencies can be filtered by setting the bandwidth.

Can someone please try and clear this up for me as I am used to using a scope with these types of filters.


Thanks

Stuart

It has the mentioned filters. That video is very, very old. Perhaps they weren't included at the time.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on March 31, 2017, 04:40:17 am
I see you've found rf-loop's work and for those that have not seen it already:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/)

I am not seeing this on my scope, but I am feeding 10 MHz pulse. Is this still repeated on current firmware? I may need a faster signal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on March 31, 2017, 05:00:36 am
I see you've found rf-loop's work and for those that have not seen it already:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/)

I am not seeing this on my scope, but I am feeding 10 MHz pulse. Is this still repeated on current firmware? I may need a faster signal.

Of course can not see. First you need knowledge and after then also tools. Now there is both missing.
How I know both are missing. Just when you tell "but I am feeding 10MHz pulse".  Please explain what was real theory and idea behind this.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 31, 2017, 05:15:18 am
Hi All,

This is my first post to this forum and thread.

I am interested in upgrading my current oscilloscope and I have been looking at the Rigol DS1054Z

I watched Dave's video EEVblog #703 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Review Summary

(video link snipped)

However I'm confused about something you said at 7:25 on this clip.

You say that there is no Software or hardware filter.

I am confused because I read in the manual on page 135 - chapter ch6-21 on Filters
http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/MSO_DS1000Z_Plus_UserGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/MSO_DS1000Z_Plus_UserGuide_EN.pdf)

It says the MSO1000Z/DS1000Z provides 4 types of filters (Low Pass Filter, High Pass Filter,
Band Pass Filter and Band Stop Filter). The specified frequencies can be filtered by setting the bandwidth.

Can someone please try and clear this up for me as I am used to using a scope with these types of filters.


Thanks

Stuart

Yes, the recent scope firmware does include these filters. However, if you are used to using a "real" scope with these filters you may be less than impressed with Rigol's implementation of them. For example they can only be implemented on the Math channel and I don't think they can be combined with other Math operations.  In my own brief and casual testing they work "OK" but it would be better if someone like MrW0lf could evaluate them thoroughly. But I don't think he has his z-box any more...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on March 31, 2017, 05:36:41 am
I am not seeing this on my scope, but I am feeding 10 MHz pulse. Is this still repeated on current firmware? I may need a faster signal.

Of course can not see. First you need knowledge and after then also tools. Now there is both missing.
How I know both are missing. Just when you tell "but I am feeding 10MHz pulse".  Please explain what was real theory and idea behind this.

Knowledge is not an absolute thing one has in unity, like a bit. Same with tools, of which I have a variety, but not a 100 MHz signal generator. I may find a few oscillators though. I had not intended to formulate any theory at this point. I was merely trying to duplicate your instrument settings with a signal I had available, and did not observe the same results, for which I postulated my own guess but have no other reason other than it is a different frequency than your test.

You seem offensive in your reply, so just be assured that I am not out to challenge or discredit you. I am just interested in learning about my scope and try to maintain an unbiased and objective perspective about that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 31, 2017, 06:02:58 am
I see you've found rf-loop's work and for those that have not seen it already:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/)

I am not seeing this on my scope, but I am feeding 10 MHz pulse. Is this still repeated on current firmware? I may need a faster signal.

The strange sin(x)/x implementation remains unchanged in the current firmware. Just confirmed this again using a 100 MHz input signal: Everything looks the same as in rf-loop's earlier tests. The amplitude in dot mode changes when sin(x)/x is enabled; line display mode (in single-shot mode with sin(x)/x OFF) produces a smooth interpolation instead of connect-the-dots.

You will indeed need a higher frequency input signal to demonstrate this. These effects only become significant when there are just a few samples per signal period. With four channels enabled (250 MHz sampling frequency), use at least 50 MHz to make the effect clearly visible.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on March 31, 2017, 06:45:59 am
I do note that interpolation is not disabled and is most apparent in the overshoot/ringing artifacts, and these increase with interpolation on. As I was looking again I recalled a 100 MHz source I have an also duplicate the signal level drop at 100ns sweep.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on March 31, 2017, 07:32:54 am
This is example about how it need work. (This is not made using Rigol)
In this test example used  samplerate  and  scope input sinewave frequency as: fNYQUIST/1.82     (equivalent as with 1GSa/s and 275MHz )

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=304053;image)

This image is just for imagine continuously running and Sinc off. (Of course not Rigol)
Rigol do (roughly) this kind of Sinc if we think there is dot middle of each line. If these imagined points are used for Sinc (draw via sample points rule) we can see very close what Rigol "looks like" do. (who knows how it really do but it looks like it in my some old tests)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=304055;image)

Same running but now dots. (NO Sinc)
(note: last singlle acq dots bit more bright)




Then single shots. In all next three images sampled data is same for show that it really draw via real sample points.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=304057;image)

 ADC sample dots.




(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=304059;image)

Lines Sinc (Sin(x)/x) off.  (draw exactly via ADC sample dots.)




(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=304061;image)

Lines Sinc on. (draw exactly via ADC sample dots.)
(pity it do not show these real sample dots here)



This is how oscilloscopes need do Sinc. (and all serious oscilloscopes do, look Keyshit, look Tektronix, look Siglent, look R&S, look Goodwill.

Note that Sinc is good for sine or some other "smooth" waveforms. It is NOT best in all cases for fast square-rectangle types of signals.  Later when I have time I will show some these things but not in this thread for avoid too deep off topic.



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 31, 2017, 09:17:18 am
You say that there is no Software or hardware filter.

Can someone please try and clear this up for me as I am used to using a scope with these types of filters.

It sounds like you have a very specific requirement in mind.

I'd try to get hands-on experience with a 'scope before spending any money on it. Manuals and sales brochures never give the full picture (this applies to all 'scopes, not just the DS1054Z).

At the very least hunt down a youtube video of the feature being used.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on March 31, 2017, 04:34:37 pm
Note that Sinc is good for sine or some other "smooth" waveforms. It is NOT best in all cases for fast square-rectangle types of signals.

Isn't it also more significant that you cannot turn off sin(x)/x interpolation unless you have 3+ channels on? You mentioned the dots and they seem OK, but also you mentioned who knows?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on March 31, 2017, 09:39:07 pm
@rf-loop, I like the way that scope (not Rigol) shows the actual samples with brighter dots when drawing in dot mode. That's a nice feature. I agree that it would be nice if it did that in sin(x)/x mode (via contrasting color).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 01, 2017, 12:19:50 pm
Can someone please explain the whole sin(x)/x issue to an oscilloscope-town n00b?
I see, that the displayed waveform in vector mode is not a connect-the-dots with straight lines, but an interpolation. Also, the sin(x)/x is greyed out as "on" in one and two channel mode and does not really do much with three, or four channels activated. (I can not see the difference)

I am probing the antenna of a PMR/Freenet dual channel handheld radio. The displayed trigger frequency does not make sense to me, but the measured values for period and frequency for the Freenet channels are plausible (6.7ns / 149MHz carrier) and even on 446MHz for the PMR carrier, at least the order of magnitude is kind of ok-ish (amplitude of course is nowhere near sane values, but then again this is way out of specs).

With all four channels activated, showing dots and persistence set to infinite, I see "slices" in the plot. As if the sampling is done in serial bursts per channel.
The measurements are way off, but to my understanding: Usable bandwidth on single channel is good up to 80MHz with a 10x probe, two channels more like 50MHz because of shared sampling and three / four channels up to 25MHz.
Most probably I am mixing up a lot of stuff here - please be patient, I am still trying to figure everything out ;)

The "vector" plot looks a like a spline interpolation to me, so it is in fact a connect-the-dots, but with a curve instead of straight lines.

This is on software 00.04.04.01.01, board v. 0.1.4, boot v. 0.0.1.4, firmware 0.2.3.11, 100MHz option,... (just for reference)

Please enlighten me :)
Frederik
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on April 01, 2017, 02:25:10 pm
The main point is that the display data is being manipulated when it shouldn't. rf-loop seemed to indicate you cannot get the raw adc value either, so the data always has some kind of manipulation and you do not know what that is because it is some kind of smoothing function that differs from sin(x)/x. And we know all measurements are performed from display data. And with the dropping amplitude at different sweep rates, it just draws the instrument into serious question.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on April 01, 2017, 03:48:23 pm
@rf-loop, I like the way that scope (not Rigol) shows the actual samples with brighter dots when drawing in dot mode. That's a nice feature. I agree that it would be nice if it did that in sin(x)/x mode (via contrasting color).

The ancient Tektronix 2440 series of DSOs support intensifying the actual samples when sin(x)/x interpolation is used but I have yet to find an application where this is useful other than verifying that sin(x)/x interpolation works correctly.  I do not remember any of their later DSOs supporting it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 01, 2017, 04:21:34 pm
The main point is that the display data is being manipulated when it shouldn't. rf-loop seemed to indicate you cannot get the raw adc value either, so the data always has some kind of manipulation and you do not know what that is because it is some kind of smoothing function that differs from sin(x)/x. And we know all measurements are performed from display data. And with the dropping amplitude at different sweep rates, it just draws the instrument into serious question.

I think you are mixing up two very different things here:

Your first point correctly describes the sin(x)/x interpolation issue discussed in the prior posts. The scope should always retain and show the raw sample data in "dot" mode, and -- dependent on whether sin(x)/x interpolation is activated or not -- should use either smooth interpolation or linear "connect the dots" interpolation in "line" mode. Messing with the actual sample values is not a correct implementation, and not documenting what the scope does there makes it worse.

Your second point, in my opinion, has nothing to do with this. Yes, Rigol scopes derive measurements from display data -- as do Agilent/Keysight scopes, I believe. That of course means that measurement values will depend on the sweep rate. Works fine for me: I primarily use a scope to visualize a signal, and I see it as a nice extra that the scope can quantify what I see on the screen. It would not occur to me to ask the scope to measure something that is not properly visible on the screen.

That may just be me, and due to the fact that I come from CRT scopes where I had to do the "measuring" myself by eyeballing on the screen grid. But I don't think this can be considered an "incorrect" implementation of measurements; it is just a design decision.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 01, 2017, 05:56:36 pm
Ok. So there is something strange about the implementation of the interpolation and the issue with not getting the raw ADC values. Also, (because of this, or something totally different) the amplitude of the displayed waveform changes on different time-bases.
But when is this really an issue? All the examples seem to deal with signals that are somewhat on the edge, or outside of the capabilities of this device. Given the specs of the DS1000Z series, I would assume 1GSa/s is OK for the projected 100MHz (10 samples per cycle - not awesome, but acceptable). But that does not mean, you should get sane representations of a signal at the upper limits of that. A 100MHz scope just is not the right tool to look at 100MHz signals IMO.
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but to get sane results I would choose a scope that has at least twice (or even 3-5x) the bandwidth of the highest frequency that needs to be looked at. Following this, the Rigol DS1054Z (hacked to 100MHz) would be just right to for example look at Atmel AtMegas with up to 32MHz clock frequency.
Expected minimum rise times are around 5ns, meaning 70MHz minimum bandwidth (from: bandwidth = 0.35/rise time).

So here is my question: Does the unexpected behavior of the implemented sin(x)/x matter beneath 50MHz, or is this just about the limits of this device and not being informed about way of readings thereof?
Or am I still missing the point of the discussion?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on April 01, 2017, 05:57:51 pm
I did not comment about the fact of using the display for measurement data, it works fine for me too. But if you are trying to quantify something like pulse overshoot and ringing, and the scope is going to build false peaks you can't get accurate results. How about just a pure sine wave dropping almost 2 divisions pk-pk just because you disabled sin(x)/x or changed your sweep from 200ns? 20% That is improperly displayed on the screen - it is wrong, not a design decision.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on April 01, 2017, 06:03:49 pm
One thing that jumps out with frozenfrogz screenshots is how far off the hardware frequency counter is. The traces show a period of pretty close to 6.7 ns which gives a frequency of 149 MHz by inspection, all good, and the Measurements agree with the traces. But the HW counter is wayyy off at just over 100MHz. Usually in my experience (at lower frequencies of course)  it is the other way around, the HW counter is pretty accurate but the Measurements can be off.

What is the story here?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on April 01, 2017, 06:37:44 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=304468) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1080859/#msg1080859)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 01, 2017, 06:43:52 pm
But the HW counter is wayyy off at just over 100MHz.

My guess is, that the trigger expects to see a frequency between 15Hz and 100MHz (plus a little extra, maybe up to 101MHz). In my case the signal frequency is seriously out of bounds and therefor displaying nonsense. Actually the trigger frequency was jumping all over the place, even more with the 446MHz signal.
For me, that is totally acceptable, as the range of projected working frequencies up to 100MHz are detected just fine.

I suspect the trigger is trying to get a phase lock over a specific length of time. With the 446MHz signal it looked like the trigger was reading partials of the carrier frequency (not displayed here, would just show up by accident). It displayed values like 74.xxxMHz - what would actually the fifth subharmonic (446MHz / 6).
But that is just an assumption.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 01, 2017, 09:32:12 pm
But when is this really an issue? All the examples seem to deal with signals that are somewhat on the edge, or outside of the capabilities of this device.

Correct. It's not an issue in real use.

Given the specs of the DS1000Z series, I would assume 1GSa/s is OK for the projected 100MHz (10 samples per cycle - not awesome, but acceptable).

Yes. With one channel on at 100MHz this is a total non-issue.

With all 4 channels on you only get 2.5 samples per cycle and this effect will start to show.

The real issue here is people's expectations. A 100MHz oscilloscope with 2.5 samples per cycle isn't the right tool for looking at 100MHz signals, period. Doesn't matter what brand of oscilloscope you choose.

(unless you're only interested in pure sine waves...)

Bottom line: This is worth knowing about but it isn't a reason not to buy a DS1054Z.

it just draws the instrument into serious question.

Anybody saying things like this is failing to see the beautiful green forest because of all the pesky trees in the way.

They're free to spend three times more money on another brand if they think it will help.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on April 01, 2017, 10:36:57 pm
Ok. So there is something strange about the implementation of the interpolation and the issue with not getting the raw ADC values. Also, (because of this, or something totally different) the amplitude of the displayed waveform changes on different time-bases.

Amplitude is only affected by the frequency response up to and including the ADC unless frequency compensation is done digitally which is common on high bandwidth DSOs.  Timebase settings and sample rate should have no effect.  (1)

Quote
But when is this really an issue? All the examples seem to deal with signals that are somewhat on the edge, or outside of the capabilities of this device. Given the specs of the DS1000Z series, I would assume 1GSa/s is OK for the projected 100MHz (10 samples per cycle - not awesome, but acceptable). But that does not mean, you should get sane representations of a signal at the upper limits of that. A 100MHz scope just is not the right tool to look at 100MHz signals IMO.

How about making RMS measurements of a noise signal which is completely within the bandwidth of the oscilloscope?  This is one of the easier and more useful measurements that a DSO should be able to make (2) and the DS1000Z series fails completely at it.

(1) High bandwidth DSOs do this but it might explain the odd sin(x)/x results not lining up with the sample points.  Is this only failing on oscilloscopes which are hacked to unlock their bandwidth because the sin(x)/x filter is implementing passband correction?  I doubt it but maybe someone can check.

(2) It is just the standard deviation of a bunch of points.  That it does not work on the DS1000Z series is easily explained by measurements being made on the display record.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 01, 2017, 10:53:46 pm
But when is this really an issue? All the examples seem to deal with signals that are somewhat on the edge, or outside of the capabilities of this device.

Correct. It's not an issue in real use.

Well, it depends on what your real use is. As always, it boils down to knowing your tools and their limitations, quirks, bugs, etc. Hence, I enjoy seeing these investigations even if they are edge cases in order to better understand how and when this scope works or doesn't.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CatalinaWOW on April 01, 2017, 11:01:27 pm
But when is this really an issue? All the examples seem to deal with signals that are somewhat on the edge, or outside of the capabilities of this device.

Correct. It's not an issue in real use.

Well, it depends on what your real use is. As always, it boils down to knowing your tools and their limitations, quirks, bugs, etc. Hence, I enjoy seeing these investigations even if they are edge cases in order to better understand how and when this scope works or doesn't.

Agreed.  Knowing the capabilities and limitations of any tool is important.  That is why it is somewhat OK to disparage a tool which does not achieve its published performance.  But it is just silly to say a tool is useless because it has limitations.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on April 02, 2017, 08:39:34 am
But when is this really an issue? All the examples seem to deal with signals that are somewhat on the edge, or outside of the capabilities of this device.

Correct. It's not an issue in real use.

Well, it depends on what your real use is. As always, it boils down to knowing your tools and their limitations, quirks, bugs, etc. Hence, I enjoy seeing these investigations even if they are edge cases in order to better understand how and when this scope works or doesn't.

Agreed.  Knowing the capabilities and limitations of any tool is important.  That is why it is somewhat OK to disparage a tool which does not achieve its published performance.  But it is just silly to say a tool is useless because it has limitations.

+1  :-+

This thread reads like an Acceptance Test journal of a group that never decided what the criteria for the acceptance test was. For one - it is RMS (which is much better but still...); for one, Fidelity of the data acquisition (needs those unadulterated bits), for another it is spelling errors (+ Pluses okay - but - Pluses??? :) ), for yet another - the goddamn awful FFT (thank you PC FFT) etc. These (and many others) are all legitimate reasons the Rigol should not pass your Acceptance Test - entirely. REJECTED!

As a household scope tool (like the cordless drill, the Dyson, the wrench kit, screwdrivers... etc.) it is more than ample. I was able to fix quite a few household items (like a few SMPSs, an amplifier, a weird RS232 issue between the Agilent and the TTI power supply, finally do an auto power off for the coffee grinder based on power input, lots of Arduino and other household embedded work, etc.). All with AMPLE capability.

Sure - at the other side of the hobby (I made the mistake of clicking on the metrology forum once - their resistors cost more than a scope...)  - trying to track down noise in really quiet voltage reference has been far less easy with the Rigol - but so what? I've done this in the past: Increase SNR to where the scope works (which of course, is vastly easier said than done).

Claiming that any of the above "rejections" IN ANY WAY - reduces the usability of Rigol as a "household scope tool" (for uses similar to the ones stated above) - is just wrong, misleading and foolish. Similarly claiming that the Rigol can replace the Picoscope or your 10k NI DAQ setup - or that it is as friendly as an R&S or a Lecroy - is just as foolish.

Rant: Why do some people need to categorically dismiss a product because of limitations that affect their use cases? Why not say "I found it too limiting for my needs" and explain why so we can all be careful and kowtow the thought care and rigorousness of presenting the evidence - rather than the offensive "Rigol is useless shit" (which also bears bad on the poster - being of a rather childish disposition)?



 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on April 02, 2017, 09:07:31 am
Rant: Why do some people need to categorically dismiss a product because of limitations that affect their use cases? Why not say "I found it too limiting for my needs" and explain why so we can all be careful and kowtow the thought care and rigorousness of presenting the evidence - rather than the offensive "Rigol is useless shit" (which also bears bad on the poster - being of a rather childish disposition)?

Why ? Few that I could think of ...

- Some competing brand's distributors find this kind of big popular thread is quite annoying, probably made they can not move their competing products fast enough out from their warehouse, while new stock are piling up, but their new potential customers are keep shouting .. "I want Rigol !!" and keeps pointing out this thread.  :-DD

- Disgruntling personalities that use this thread for venting out, its nothing about this scope really.

- DS-1054Z envy, as they made wrong decision buying competing brand, while keep drooling why this thread keeps growing, while their scope is left out cold never discussed and popularly explored like in the forum discussion.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 02, 2017, 09:23:24 am
Having read all the comments in this thread, my conclusion is that, for most hobbyists,
the Rigol DS1054Z is still the recommended scope in it's price class.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on April 02, 2017, 11:06:05 am
Having read all the comments in this thread, my conclusion is that, for most hobbyists,
the Rigol DS1054Z is still the recommended scope in it's price class.

Agreed, it's like trying to find the perfect partner or perfect house. Neither exist, you have to compromise, and where you compromise depends on your priorities over a number of factors, different people will have different priorities.

One thing is absolute, this scope is certainly not a toy as some have tried to convey. It is a serious instrument, and like all tools you have to know how to use it and be able to interpret the results, and, that will be through experience and some learning. Not all tools work the same way. For some things, yes, it'll be the wrong tool, nobody's saying otherwise, like you wouldn't use a micrometer to measure a mile. But as a general purpose scope it is difficult to see how overall it can be bettered at the price point.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on April 02, 2017, 11:54:32 am
Having read all the comments in this thread, my conclusion is that, for most hobbyists,
the Rigol DS1054Z is still the recommended scope in it's price class.


There you go folks. The summary we've been waiting for.

Now, we can close the thread after 145 pages. Thank everyone for attending!  :clap:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 02, 2017, 12:58:00 pm
Now, we can close the thread after 145 pages. Thank everyone for attending!  :clap:

No, sorry, can't do that.
We need to keep the thread open for the periodic "does the hack still work with the latest firmware?" questions.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 02, 2017, 01:28:16 pm
Having read all the comments in this thread, my conclusion is that, for most hobbyists,
the Rigol DS1054Z is still the recommended scope in it's price class.


On the 2nd of April 2017, yes.

Even the up-and-coming new low-end 'scopes from other manufacturers don't quite unseat it. They either cost a lot more or have less channels/features.

To unseat the Rigol they'll need to be hacked to release their upgrade options. So far that's looking unlikely.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 02, 2017, 01:34:06 pm
One thing is absolute, this scope is certainly not a toy as some have tried to convey. It is a serious instrument,

Yep. The things that people really could be complaining about simply aren't there. Build quality is good, there's no lockups that need power cycles, nothing like that. It works, it does the job.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on April 02, 2017, 02:20:38 pm
Having read all the comments in this thread, my conclusion is that, for most hobbyists,
the Rigol DS1054Z is still the recommended scope in it's price class.
For most professionals the DS1054Z is just fine, too. The majority of professional engineers are currently working on things where any high speed signals are confined within a single package, where a scope can't get at them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jonovid on April 02, 2017, 02:33:27 pm
saving up for this one
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Neo2199 on April 02, 2017, 03:15:29 pm
Yep. Great choice.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 03, 2017, 03:13:42 am
Now, we can close the thread after 145 pages. Thank everyone for attending!  :clap:

LOL. But, actually, it may still be a useful thread...for the next firmware update. Who knows how many pages that'll generate. :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on April 03, 2017, 04:42:02 am
Who knows how many pages will be generated until the next firmware update?

Somehow it is like watching "BTTF 2" or "2012":
Something is still upcoming in the future that should had already happen in the past...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on April 03, 2017, 05:48:20 am
That's it.  We can blame it all on Biff and Marty McFly.  I knew it had to be related somehow.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rondlh on April 03, 2017, 07:14:15 am
I just upgraded my Rigol D1054Z Board version 1.1 to firmware: v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14 CRC32: A623D8BC. Works without any problems. I also replaced the fan with a Gelid Silent 5 fan, work great! Riglol still works fine.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on April 03, 2017, 08:13:26 am
Having read all the comments in this thread, my conclusion is that, for most hobbyists,
the Rigol DS1054Z is still the recommended scope in it's price class.

There you go folks. The summary we've been waiting for.

Now, we can close the thread after 145 pages. Thank everyone for attending!  :clap:

A succinct summary. Although, curiously similar to this line in the first post of the thread:

Quote
Unless you have specific requirements not met by this model, it is still the default recommendation in its price range.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on April 03, 2017, 08:44:48 am
Curiously positive posts. I am not used to that... I want the love/hate balance back...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcTv-BEwabk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcTv-BEwabk)

Can't anyone find a dangling participle or a sentence that ends with a preposition in Rigol's manual so we can continue the onslaught on how amateurish they are?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on April 03, 2017, 09:04:31 am
Curiously positive posts. I am not used to that...

You know back in the day engineering had to do with numbers. But times are changing... now it's more about love, acceptance...  feeling of being embraced by community, grooming your friends fur...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7FY045HEDU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7FY045HEDU)
Lone madmen trying to check the numbers are luckily either banned, hunted down or given up and floating in sea of love, embraced by church of Z :clap: It's all for the best. I look forward into flying robot planes engineered by these kind and loving people when they outgrow $400 budget...



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on April 03, 2017, 09:40:13 am
It is better when humans and cats lick each other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30UB2o5Ui4o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30UB2o5Ui4o)

Very soon your car will be driven by an app written by an engineer that can't solve a differential equation. But that won't be a problem as instead of crashing they'll reboot softly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 03, 2017, 10:15:31 am
You know back in the day engineering had to do with numbers. But times are changing... now it's more about love, acceptance...  feeling of being embraced by community, grooming your friends fur...

Lone madmen trying to check the numbers are luckily either banned, hunted down or given up and floating in sea of love, embraced by church of Z :clap: It's all for the best. I look forward into flying robot planes engineered by these kind and loving people when they outgrow $400 budget...

Those engineers who are not interested in the "love and community" part are still free to indulge in feelings of superiority... But the latter are a long-honored engineering tradition, of course.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on April 03, 2017, 10:35:34 am
part are still free to indulge in feelings of superiority...

:palm: It's not about feelings, its about numbers... possibly on paycheck if you learn how stuff is done by the book from the beginning, and not develop habit of too much acceptance towards "hacky" ways...
https://youtu.be/1apCAzCTZdQ?t=12m25s
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 04, 2017, 01:41:25 am
Cats in the 1054 thread. It has really jumped the shark now. :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on April 04, 2017, 05:04:43 am
Cats in the 1054 thread. It has really jumped the shark now. :-DD

More so, if you consider that one was literally a pussy licking video.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on April 04, 2017, 07:51:49 am
Now, we can close the thread after 145 pages. Thank everyone for attending!  :clap:

LOL. But, actually, it may still be a useful thread...for the next firmware update. Who knows how many pages that'll generate. :-DD
Shall we see???

Looks like Rigol just posted new firmware version 00.04.04.03.02
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on April 04, 2017, 07:55:03 am
Hot Damn!!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on April 04, 2017, 07:55:58 am
Now, we can close the thread after 145 pages. Thank everyone for attending!  :clap:

LOL. But, actually, it may still be a useful thread...for the next firmware update. Who knows how many pages that'll generate. :-DD
Shall we see???

Looks like Rigol just posted new firmware version 00.04.04.03.02
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)
Wow, indeed!

Well, fortunately the forum has just been updated, so I hope the database will withstand the post storm it will generate!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on April 04, 2017, 08:06:47 am
Wait a minute....

When I went through the menu at the Rigol site, it still says to fill out a form to get a copy.    On top of that, the release notes on the webpage that was referenced is the same number as and old release, and the latest dates in it are 2015. 

Version Information
Released version: 00.04.03.02.03
Release Date: 10/20/2015


In other words, not the new release, just an old one it seems.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on April 04, 2017, 08:09:32 am
Am I seeing this wrong? 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 04, 2017, 08:11:46 am
Quote
[Supported Model]    All the MSO/DS1000Z Series Digital Oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date]  2017/03/24

[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.03.02  2017/02/06
     - Improved the LXI module
     - Fixed the freeze problem when upgrading based on the boot version of
       0.0.0.13
     - Improved the menu in the language of Traditional Chinese and Korean
     - Modified the failure when downloading waveform to the source module
     - Fixed bugs about reading the memory data through SCPI commands
     - Fixed bugs about Measure
     - Fixed bugs about Filter

Weird that the firmware isn't listed here: http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)    :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on April 04, 2017, 08:12:05 am
Wait a minute....

When I went through the menu at the Rigol site, it still says to fill out a form to get a copy.    On top of that, the release notes on the webpage that was referenced is the same number as the release that was pulled, and the latest dates in it are 2015. 

Version Information
Released version: 00.04.03.02.03
Release Date: 10/20/2015


In other words, not the new release, just the old one that was pulled it seems.

No, I just downloaded the "DS1ZUpdate.ZIP" file.

It contains two files:

DS1000ZUpdate.GEL, dated February 8th 2017, and DS1Z_release_notes.txt modified yesterday (April 3rd 2017).

This is the beginning of the release notes:

Code: [Select]
[Supported Model]    All the MSO/DS1000Z Series Digital Oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date]  2017/03/24

[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.03.02  2017/02/06
     - Improved the LXI module
     - Fixed the freeze problem when upgrading based on the boot version of
       0.0.0.13
     - Improved the menu in the language of Traditional Chinese and Korean
     - Modified the failure when downloading waveform to the source module
     - Fixed bugs about reading the memory data through SCPI commands
     - Fixed bugs about Measure
     - Fixed bugs about Filter

They are rather chaotic releasing updates, because this is not linked from the latest "usual" location (which was
http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)).

Now, who dares? We are especially curious about the "plusses" issue! ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 04, 2017, 08:15:39 am
No mention of a fix for the notorious USB connection problems... :(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on April 04, 2017, 08:19:35 am
Ha!  They fooled me.  I read the release notes on the webpage, not in the Zip file.  Thanks for the heads up on it all!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 04, 2017, 08:27:35 am
So -- does the hack still work with the latest firmware?  ;)
(Thought we should get this over and done with right away...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on April 04, 2017, 08:30:13 am
I don't know.   And since I'm so new at this game of electronics,  I don't know if I want to be the guinea pig.   If I do it I'll probably remove the hacks  first.  But then again, I could wait for braver souls to blaze the trail.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Dwaine on April 04, 2017, 08:39:16 am
The hacks still work fine.  I noticed no differences with playing around for about five minutes.  I'm a little disappointed.  I expected better. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on April 04, 2017, 08:40:04 am
"- Modified the failure when downloading waveform to the source module" ??

So it still fails, just differently? :D

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SimonD on April 04, 2017, 08:46:46 am
Someone brave ?   ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daruosha on April 04, 2017, 09:02:44 am
I applied the update and the options remained untouched :) you can safely do the upgrade.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on April 04, 2017, 09:05:13 am
Awesome! Thanks, Dwaine, Darousha!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on April 04, 2017, 09:07:19 am
Someone brave ?   ;D

Sigh ... really tempting but really scared, especially my old boot version ...  :scared:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on April 04, 2017, 09:34:41 am
" - Fixed bugs about Measure"

16k for measurements like for FFT? Hmm... Probably not... But maybe fixed mess with <> signs etc. Would be interesting what exactly is fixed now.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SimonD on April 04, 2017, 09:38:43 am
OK! Just another succesive update. PLUSES still remain!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: screwbreaker on April 04, 2017, 10:09:04 am
Sigh ... really tempting but really scared, especially my old boot version ...  :scared:

Ok, this is confusing to me. According to Rigol the problem was with boot version 0.0.0.13 or below. Your version is 0.0.1.0 which is higher than 0.0.0.13, so your boot version is ok for the update.

I think there are too many non significant zeros in the boot version, they make a lot of confusion.

In this topic "Just Upgrade my Rigol DS1054Z to the 4.04 firmware": https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/msg1068309/#msg1068309 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/msg1068309/#msg1068309)
User "Robuster" show a screenshot of his DS1054Z and the firmware version is 0.0.0.12, so versions below 0.0.1.0 really exists.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/just-upgrade-my-rigol-ds1054z-to-the-4-04-firmware/?action=dlattach;attach=269424;image)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on April 04, 2017, 10:19:30 am
OK! Just another succesive update. PLUSES still remain!
Honestly, we'll miss it the day they fix the typo!!!  :horse:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 04, 2017, 11:02:37 am
Quote
[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.03.02  2017/02/06
     - Improved the LXI module
     - Fixed the freeze problem when upgrading based on the boot version of
       0.0.0.13
     - Improved the menu in the language of Traditional Chinese and Korean
     - Modified the failure when downloading waveform to the source module
     - Fixed bugs about reading the memory data through SCPI commands
     - Fixed bugs about Measure
     - Fixed bugs about Filter

The "freeze problem when upgrading based on the boot version of 0.0.0.13" was the reason they pulled the previous firmware.

Quote
- Fixed bugs about Measure
- Fixed bugs about Filter

So that's it all fixed then.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 04, 2017, 11:07:12 am
OK! Just another succesive update. PLUSES still remain!
Honestly, we'll miss it the day they fix the typo!!!  :horse:

I'm starting to think that's an inside joke at Rigol... :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 04, 2017, 11:08:14 am
" - Fixed bugs about Measure"

16k for measurements like for FFT? Hmm... Probably not... But maybe fixed mess with <> signs etc. Would be interesting what exactly is fixed now.

You're the expert.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 04, 2017, 11:13:11 am
Lone madmen trying to check the numbers are luckily either banned, hunted down or given up

That wasn't the reason you were banned.

Not one person ever has denied your numbers.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on April 04, 2017, 11:26:52 am
You're the expert.  :popcorn:
:-// don't have it. Almost willing to make bet that if it has 16k calculus now, will buy one again and go over it with LICKI couple times out of great joy. But bet goes both ways not sure what I would want you to go over with LICKI so better not :scared:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 04, 2017, 11:46:01 am
Maybe "Fixed bugs about Measure" means they improved the RMS measurements or something like that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 04, 2017, 01:08:12 pm
I noticed that the rise times say "<XXus" when you're zoomed out. Did it do that before? I don't remember.

It was one of the things Wolfie complained a lot about. Did they change it? :popcorn:

eg.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=305367;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 04, 2017, 01:12:54 pm
After updating to the latest firmware and running the self-calibration afterwards, I had a strange double-trace happening. It is gone now and I still need to reproduce it, but have not seen such behavior before :/
Maybe it was a hick-up, or something radiating into my signal path - I will do some further investigation...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on April 04, 2017, 01:21:23 pm
I noticed that the rise times say "<XXus" when you're zoomed out. Did it do that before? I don't remember.

It did in "one line" mode, did not notice it in other modes. However sometimes it was wrong. Here is test about this (quite long):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/msg1096096/#msg1096096 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/msg1096096/#msg1096096)
Some outtakes that would instantly reveal if anything has improved with this:

Input: square wfm, frequency: 666.666666Hz, duty 66%
Math check: Period: 1.5ms; +Width: 0.99ms; -Width: 0.51ms

Old results for "one line" mode, did not show <> neither in big table or 4-line measurements (Cur/Avg/Dev/Cnt & Cur/Avg/Max/Min):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/?action=dlattach;attach=279613)

Note all <> signs were wrong, except rise. If it is single trace yes you can zoom in and inspect, however it is 4ch scope and may want to monitor multiple signals with quite different freq with some basic level of confidence (keeping eye on motor driver etc).


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on April 04, 2017, 01:35:37 pm
Hey MrW0lf, is your signature in error -

MrW0lf=MrWolf. Personal messages please to MrW0lf only.

Shouldn't the "=' be "not equal" ?



Note the not equal character/sign does not work on the forum
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on April 04, 2017, 01:44:53 pm
Did pressing a soft button scroll through the options before? I never knew it did that. Much better than the indent-less knob....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on April 04, 2017, 02:03:49 pm
Did pressing a soft button scroll through the options before? I never knew it did that. Much better than the indent-less knob....

Yes, it always did that, but you still have to press the knob to confirm the selection, otherwise the popup menu stays on the screen.  :palm:

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hexreader on April 04, 2017, 02:12:26 pm
Did pressing a soft button scroll through the options before? I never knew it did that. Much better than the indent-less knob....

Yes, it always did that, but you still have to press the knob to confirm the selection, otherwise the popup menu stays on the screen.  :palm:

McBryce.
Just press another button (I usually go for the 'down' button) to clear the menu from the screen.

I too go to extreme lengths to avoid using that horrible rotary selection knob.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 04, 2017, 03:24:28 pm
After updating to the latest firmware and running the self-calibration afterwards, I had a strange double-trace happening. It is gone now and I still need to reproduce it, but have not seen such behavior before :/
Maybe it was a hick-up, or something radiating into my signal path - I will do some further investigation...

Turns out I am picking up massive EM radiation @50Hz

This is with the clip-on heads for the probes, touching the tip with my finger (me being the antenna).
The only thing I changed in the last days was switching the Sunon fan for a Gelid Silent 5. Can anyone having done the fan mod confirm it is not an issue related to the fan?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hexreader on April 04, 2017, 03:41:33 pm
What multiplier setting is set in the "probe" menu item?

Is your probe switched to x1 or x10?

I get 4Vpp using myself as an aerial at home - tried with Rigol and with an Instek scope using standard Rigol scope probe.

Interestingly it makes little difference whether I switch the probe to x1 or to x10  the trace remains about the same (which might be interpreted as changing from 4Vpp to 40Vpp).

I could probably work out an explanation for this behaviour if I though hard enough, but to be honest, I can't be bothered. It is not like measuring mains pick-up is a sensible thing to do anyway.

I have not done a fan mod.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on April 04, 2017, 04:21:19 pm
double check your mains ground too.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 04, 2017, 04:27:05 pm
What multiplier setting is set in the "probe" menu item?

I am using the 10x setup on both the probe and the Rigol.

Turns out, the issue must have been there before, as I could clearly identify the power cable as the source of radiation. Putting my hand near the cable gives an increased readout of about 10Vpp. I guess it did not occur to me as I have not been using the clip-on heads a lot, but to my liking this is inducing to much noise.
Do higher quality power cables come as shielded?

Regards,
Frederik

PS: This buildings electrical installation is in sub-optimal state and the owner could not care less. There is no RCD / ground line, everything is two-wire with neutral bridged to ground (as it was done in the 1980s I guess). Could this be the root of all evil?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 04, 2017, 04:28:08 pm
double check your mains ground too.

That's what came up in my mind while typing xD
So I guess I’ll have to live with it until moving to a better location...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on April 04, 2017, 04:56:42 pm
Ouch.  That sucks not having a proper ground.  I had to have the ground rods replaced at my house because of too much resistance.   It was causing all the metal around my garage to reflect and re-radiate the wideband RF from my old spark gap Tig welder instead of grounding it out. (all of the stuff there is bonded to ground.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 04, 2017, 05:20:02 pm
Installed the new firmware. Upgrading went smooth. Now it shows version 00.04.04.SP3 in system info.
Unfortunately they didn't fix the USB bug (which doesn't come as a surprise because Rigol told me that it's
probably too hard to fix...).

edit: Installed options are still present.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 04, 2017, 06:11:01 pm
I noticed that the rise times say "<XXus" when you're zoomed out. Did it do that before? I don't remember.

i've always seen it happen.. probably when there are not sufficient points to calculate. zoom in and the magic happens

(is there another update?)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on April 04, 2017, 06:26:59 pm
I noticed that the rise times say "<XXus" when you're zoomed out. Did it do that before? I don't remember.

i've always seen it happen.. probably when there are not sufficient points to calculate. zoom in and the magic happens

(is there another update?)

Yes. It came in right after the cats left...

Looks like Rigol just posted new firmware version 00.04.04.03.02
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Housedad on April 04, 2017, 06:30:16 pm
finally got the time to update mine.   Worked with no problems. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on April 04, 2017, 06:41:23 pm
the USB bug...

I'm sorry, I forgot the detail of this... it does not affect use of the Rigol software and use with USB, right? You were using it with Linux and DSRemote?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 04, 2017, 06:52:33 pm
the USB bug...
I'm sorry, I forgot the detail of this... it does not affect use of the Rigol software and use with USB, right?

IIRC it was something with using a USB cable to control it instead of Ethernet.

(which seems pointless anyway, what's wrong with Ethernet?)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 04, 2017, 07:55:38 pm
the USB bug...

I'm sorry, I forgot the detail of this... it does not affect use of the Rigol software and use with USB, right? You were using it with Linux and DSRemote?

The bug causes problems depending on your pc/laptop hardware & driver. To be more precise, it depends
on which USB hostcontroller chip is mounted on your motherboard.
The scope uses HS bulk endpoints with a packetsize of 64 bytes which is illegal because the standard says it must be
512 bytes. So, some controllers don't forward the packet to the driver (or the driver doesn't forward it to an upper layer)
because it expects more data to arrive. Usually there's a timeout of 5 seconds but that doesn't help much.

Honestly, I don't know how windows deals with it. It could be that windows is more forgiving (less strict with the standard)
than Linux. What I do know for sure is that with Linux and same kernel versions, the problem occurs depending on the hardware.

The problem has been reported to Rigol and they confirmed it. They also said that it's too hard to solve.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 04, 2017, 08:05:51 pm
OK! Just another succesive update. PLUSES still remain!
Honestly, we'll miss it the day they fix the typo!!!  :horse:

I'm starting to think that's an inside joke at Rigol... :popcorn:

Yeah, maybe. Or perhaps they want this scope to always be different from everyone else's.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 04, 2017, 08:11:42 pm
IIRC it was something with using a USB cable to control it instead of Ethernet.

(which seems pointless anyway, what's wrong with Ethernet?)

Nothing wrong with Ethernet. Someone may not have an Ethernet port (or requires a dongle) or a hub/switch/null cable handy to connect to it. It doesn't do auto-crossover does it? Anyway, USB may just be more convenient for some.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on April 04, 2017, 08:43:49 pm
OK, there is new Firmware posted here in April. It fixed a problem with the previous version locking up old scopes.

What does this version fix otherwise? Does anyone have info on any possible suspects for the following?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 04, 2017, 09:00:43 pm
the filter always started about 2 divisions right. i use the lowpass to make certain measurementes because i have a terrible issue here with FM radio interference.

Buck converter. chan2 is pre-inductor, chan1 is post inductor. with filter i can see the actual waveform

Before update:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=305525;image)

Spoiler alert:  :(
running self cal...

After update it starts earlier but also stops earlier. whatever is positioned correctly
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=305532;image)

Look what happens if you just touch the "start" control. the end control doesn't do nothing
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=305534;image)

** saving a screenshot seems a bit faster
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 04, 2017, 09:39:30 pm
Good news is that it looks like the multi-channel waveform data download bug as described here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg862373/#msg862373 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg862373/#msg862373)

has been resolved.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Dwaine on April 04, 2017, 09:58:36 pm
Rigol, it's not too hard.  Your device driver is reporting the wrong Max Packet Size value for high-speed bulk endpoint
Or just force the USB Controller driver to use 512.

Index: usb-3.18/drivers/usb/host/xhci-mem.c
===================================================================
--- usb-3.18.orig/drivers/usb/host/xhci-mem.c
+++ usb-3.18/drivers/usb/host/xhci-mem.c
@@ -1464,9 +1464,6 @@ int xhci_endpoint_init(struct xhci_hcd *
       max_burst = ep->ss_ep_comp.bMaxBurst;
       break;
    case USB_SPEED_HIGH:
+      /* Some devices get this wrong */
+      if (usb_endpoint_xfer_bulk(&ep->desc))
+         max_packet = 512;
       /* bits 11:12 specify the number of additional transaction
        * opportunities per microframe (USB 2.0, section 9.6.6)
        */


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 05, 2017, 03:21:23 am
After update it starts earlier but also stops earlier. whatever

Look what happens if you just touch the "start" control.

So, it was just a visual bandaid. D'oh! Fail.

Good news is that it looks like the multi-channel waveform data download bug...has been resolved.

That's great news for remote multi-channel capture and processing.

Rigol, it's not too hard.

Hard vs. easy doesn't seem to be a factor. One word: "Pluses". :horse:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 04:53:20 am
Another missed opportunity... i wonder if the multitransfert bug was really solved or just hid under the rug
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on April 05, 2017, 05:33:59 am
OK, there is new Firmware posted here in April. It fixed a problem with the previous version locking up old scopes.

What does this version fix otherwise? Does anyone have info on any possible suspects for the following?

  • Bugs about measure.
  • Bugs about filter.
  • Bugs about SCPI reading memory data.
  • Bugs about downloading waveform to source module

Inside the archive 'DS1000ZUpdate.zip' is the usual text file 'DS1Z_release_notes.txt', where all the fixes are listed:

Code: [Select]
[Supported Model]    All the MSO/DS1000Z Series Digital Oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date]  2017/03/24

[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.03.02  2017/02/06
     - Improved the LXI module
     - Fixed the freeze problem when upgrading based on the boot version of
       0.0.0.13
     - Improved the menu in the language of Traditional Chinese and Korean
     - Modified the failure when downloading waveform to the source module
     - Fixed bugs about reading the memory data through SCPI commands
     - Fixed bugs about Measure
     - Fixed bugs about Filter

[History]
-------------
v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14
     - Supported the multi-inteface of LXI
     - Fixed bugs about Measure

v00.04.04.00.07  2016/07/19
     - Added the full-screen display in the XY mode
     - Modified the Trace data of average sample mode
     - Fixed the bug of system halted for wave persistance in the Zoom mode
     - Fixed bugs about Measure

v00.04.03.02.03   2015/10/20
     - Added commands concerning the type and format of the image
     - Added four measurement items (+Pulses, -Pulses, +Edges, -Edges) and
       related commands
     - Added commands concerning the digital filter
     - Added more information to the last setting

     - Fixed option installation
     - Fixed Intg operation

v00.04.03.01.05   2015/06/16
     - Added French in system language
     - Added the mutual communication with DG4000 Series
     - Added the digital filter
     - Supported using memory data to carry out FFT operation
     - Supported invert and format setting when reading a image remotely

     - Fixed bugs when the data of the digital channel is saved in the CSV
       format

v00.04.03.00.01   2015/05/05
     - Added DS1104Z Plus and DS1074Z Plus

     - Fixed pass/fail test
     - Fixed FFT operation

v00.04.02.04.07   2014/12/31
     - Fixed triggering function
     - Fixed storage function
     - Fixed bugs of jitter in the signal under the AC or low-frequency
       coupling

v00.04.02.03.00   2014/10/21
     - Added commands concerning remote reading and download of pass/fail test
       rules
     - Improved the command set for decoding and waveform recording

     - Fixed bugs in RS232 decoding
 
v00.04.01.02.00   2014/07/28
     - Added traditional Chinese language for the measurement menu
     - Optimized the event table display
     - Pressed and held [Measure] to remove all the measurement items
     - Added hardware version number to the displayed system information

     - Fixed bugs in storage function
     - Fixed bugs in the Undo operation for AUTO
     - Fixed bugs in signal source function
 
v00.04.00.00.00   2014/03/18
     - Added remote reading of LA waveform data
     - Added commands concerning the measurement of MATH waveform
     - Optimized the prompt message of LA probe calibration

     - Fixed bugs in triggering function
...
...
...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 05, 2017, 06:31:46 am
... i wonder if the multitransfert bug was really solved or just hid under the rug

If you have a DS1054Z, why don't you try and let us know? If you don't, why do you care?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 07:12:02 am
... i wonder if the multitransfert bug was really solved or just hid under the rug

If you have a DS1054Z, why don't you try and let us know? If you don't, why do you care?
better question: why don't you?
As always, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

I did demonstrate that one of the fixes wasn't a fix  on a function i happen to use a lot. I think i have the right to be skeptical and say do not take the changelog as gold
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 05, 2017, 07:37:08 am
Can someone compile a list of all the known bugs from the previous firmware release together with some pointers on how to reproduce the issues?
I need to admit that I lost track of all the quirks in the course of this thread, but would be happy to test on the new firmware and share my findings.

:D Frederik :-/O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dimkasta on April 05, 2017, 08:03:49 am
I have a question since what I read around is a bit controversial.

Does the 1054z have configurable high/low/band pass filters on each channel like its small brother?
I use them a lot on my 1052 and I was thinking to upgrade to 1054 at some point.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 08:12:40 am
yes, there are, with selectable cutoff frequency. i should mention they are also bugged as i have shown in the screenshots above: the filtered trace is shifted on the right and the filtering is not applied to the whole displayed trace
the range of cutoff frequencies depend on the selected timebase

question to other users, i was writing an I2C management stack the other week and i was using the Z to debug it. besided being very hard to make it trigger on i2c start contidion (i don't remember the exact trickery) i noticed that after a power cycle it wouldn't trigger unless i changed from i2c trigger to another and then back to I2C (without changing any parameter)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 05, 2017, 08:41:04 am
I did demonstrate that one of the fixes wasn't a fix  on a function i happen to use a lot. I think i have the right to be skeptical and say do not take the changelog as gold

You are referring to the filter function, I assume.
Well, what you did demonstrate is that Rigol did not make a specific improvement which you were hoping for. But how can you claim that they did not fix anything in the filter function, and hence the change log entry is false? I agree that Rigol's change log entries are annoyingly brief, so one does not know what they have actually fixed or improved. But I don't think you can claim that they lie in the change logs, stating improvements that have not been made.

Speaking of the filter function, I am not sure what the actual issue is which you are concerned about. Is it the fact that the filtered waveform does not extend over the full width of the display?

(I assume that behavior stems from Rigol's approach of using only the display data for all measurements and calculations. If they use some FIR filter, that needs a bit of runway, i.e. needs to be fed prior data points before it can output anything. Not nice, but I can't see how they could provide a filtered trace across the whole display width without accessing data before and/or after the displayed section. EDIT: So Rigol should be applauded for displaying only mathematically correct information in this case, instead of "faking" something!  ;))
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on April 05, 2017, 08:45:51 am
yes, there are, with selectable cutoff frequency. i should mention they are also bugged as i have shown in the screenshots above: the filtered trace is shifted on the right and the filtering is not applied to the whole displayed trace

Is it really shifted or just starts later? AFAIK for filter to work with 100% confidence it has to have certain "wrapper" leading amount of data, which depends on filter freq. I just tried to filter 1kHz square with 1kHz lowpass on Pico Demo and it starts 0.25ms after data start, ends 0.25ms before data end - 1/4th of filter freq period.
If not doing it that way filter would have to presume that signal is similar/repeating before and after actual capture, which would be wrong.
Theoretical workaround is acquire longer length and zoom in a bit in area of interest, if it works on specific scope...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 05, 2017, 08:52:58 am
(I assume that behavior stems from Rigol's approach of using only the display data for all measurements and calculations.

Me too.

If they use some FIR filter, that needs a bit of runway, i.e. needs to be fed prior data points before it can output anything. Not nice, but I can't see how they could provide a filtered trace across the whole display width without accessing data before and/or after the displayed section. EDIT: So Rigol should be applauded for displaying only mathematically correct information in this case, instead of "faking" something!  ;))

Yep.

It may not be what some people imagined it would be but that doesn't mean it's incorrect.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dimkasta on April 05, 2017, 09:00:25 am
yes, there are, with selectable cutoff frequency. i should mention they are also bugged as i have shown in the screenshots above: the filtered trace is shifted on the right and the filtering is not applied to the whole displayed trace
Anyway, the range of cutoff frequencies depend on the selected timebase

I saw your screenshots but I was tired and did not pay much attention to them.
So the filters are applied on the math channel? Not directly on each channel?
Does this mean that you can apply a filter on just one channel at a time?

The cutoff freqs depend on the timebase on the 1052 too. But I learned to juggle around it and get the band I wanted with relatively nice results.
But if I cannot apply filters on each channel at the same time, it is a bit of a deal breaker for me.
I do not really need the 4 channels or any of the digital trigger stuff. I mostly work with audio. I just wanted to upgrade for the nice big screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 05, 2017, 09:00:45 am
... i wonder if the multitransfert bug was really solved or just hid under the rug

If you have a DS1054Z, why don't you try and let us know? If you don't, why do you care?
better question: why don't you?

Because I don't make assumptions based on nothing.

If with "multitransfert bug" you mean the multi-channel waveform download bug,
I checked it and it seems to be resolved like I wrote before.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 05, 2017, 09:03:28 am
After update it starts earlier but also stops earlier. whatever
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=305532;image)

Sure, but the peaks and troughs line up nicely with the original signal so where's the bug?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on April 05, 2017, 09:05:58 am
Indeed, Rigol MATH functions are using only the displayed points to calculate the result, so for a filter to cover the whole display it would mean to rewrite a big part of the scope's functions in order to access some extra data points from the scope's memory, instead of accessing only the displayed data points. I bet Rigol will never do that for DS1000Z.

There still is a bug with the filter. The filter works OK only if the start point is 0.
If one changes the start data point for the filter, then the whole filter trace suddenly shifts to the right (like a phase delay). For me this is not a big issue, but it is definitely a bug.

Also, another minor bug is that you cannot change the end data point until you first change the start data point. But if you change the start data point, then the filter trace becomes shifted to the right.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 09:20:46 am
Sure, but the peaks and troughs line up nicely with the original signal so where's the bug?

i can count two:
 - doesn't use the full trace, can't see why it shouldn't (i see it now)
 - "end" control doesn't do nothing

also, the start parameter moves the trace right. i can't decide wether it is a feature or a bug, to me start should mean that it start filtering from this point (as i recall it happens in other functions)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 09:24:10 am
... i wonder if the multitransfert bug was really solved or just hid under the rug

If you have a DS1054Z, why don't you try and let us know? If you don't, why do you care?
better question: why don't you?

Because I don't make assumptions based on nothing.

If with "multitransfert bug" you mean the multi-channel waveform download bug,
I checked it and it seems to be resolved like I wrote before.


cool :) then, sorry.. i must have missed the whole post..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 09:26:26 am
yes, there are, with selectable cutoff frequency. i should mention they are also bugged as i have shown in the screenshots above: the filtered trace is shifted on the right and the filtering is not applied to the whole displayed trace
Anyway, the range of cutoff frequencies depend on the selected timebase

I saw your screenshots but I was tired and did not pay much attention to them.
So the filters are applied on the math channel? Not directly on each channel?
Does this mean that you can apply a filter on just one channel at a time?

The cutoff freqs depend on the timebase on the 1052 too. But I learned to juggle around it and get the band I wanted with relatively nice results.
But if I cannot apply filters on each channel at the same time, it is a bit of a deal breaker for me.
I do not really need the 4 channels or any of the digital trigger stuff. I mostly work with audio. I just wanted to upgrade for the nice big screen.


yes. the only "filtering" per channel is the 20 MHz bandwidth limit, the selectable filter as you saw it is a math trace, can be used on a channel at a time
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on April 05, 2017, 10:05:29 am
Hello,
i can count two:
 - doesn't use the full trace, can't see why it shouldn't
 - "end" control doesn't do nothing
Sorry for you!
Ther is no bug or issue. It's the algorithm of calculation IIR, FIR or what ever Filter you want of a limited range of data points. (See Mathematica or other math program an the theorie of digital filters ...)
LG Wolf
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: dimkasta on April 05, 2017, 10:22:06 am
Indeed, Rigol MATH functions are using only the displayed points to calculate the result, so for a filter to cover the whole display it would mean to rewrite a big part of the scope's functions in order to access some extra data points from the scope's memory, instead of accessing only the displayed data points. I bet Rigol will never do that for DS1000Z.

Which is a pitty because 1052 already did it...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 05, 2017, 10:35:27 am
- doesn't use the full trace, can't see why it shouldn't

As RoGeorge and I tried to explain above, it seems that the filter function does use the full trace as input to calculate the filtered output. (That's the full trace in display memory, as for all math functions.) Since the filter requires some "runway", depending on its time constant, that means that the output is a filtered trace which cannot run over the full width of the display.

That's a design limitation, stemming from the "math and measurements are based on display memory" paradigm, but not a bug in my view.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 10:36:03 am
I admit that digital filters are not my area of expertise, but from what i remember for an M tap filter i would expect that the first M output samples would be """wrong""" and i can see why they would be discarded. what i don't see is a reason to discard the samples on the right

note that moving the start cursor right by a couple of pixels extends the trace. (start/end is not saved in a screenshot.. i should make a video if you can't try)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 05, 2017, 10:51:32 am
I can't lay claim to being an expert on digital filters either. They do introduce phase delays, and I assume that Rigol shifts the filtered output to the left to correct for that (i.e. make the filtered and unfiltered traces line up better). That would cause the missing output on the right side of the screen.

Maybe the Start/End options are simply there to allow manual tweaking of this alignment?

I'm sure an actual expert on digital filters can provide a better/clearer/more correct explanation ...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 10:57:35 am
i suppose, but on my unit start moves the waveform around and end doesn't seem to do nothing.

looking at my screenshots again..
on #2 the trace starts at 2/5 of a division, ends 4/5 before.
on #3 i moved the start about 2/5 division right. the trace starts at 4/5 of a division... but ends at the end of the trace!! what is this?
seems the filters is suddently displaying more points.. what?

also, the trace is no longer aligned, confirm again that start moves the waveform around.

about the missing samples on the right, that is also my idea: i think what they did is apply the filter to a buffer the same width as the screen buffer, discarding whatever was left outside due to filter introduced delay. then shift everything left

** because some individuals like to say me and some others are here only to complain, i'd like to add that i'm trying to understand what's really happening. **
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on April 05, 2017, 11:01:47 am
I can't lay claim to being an expert on digital filters either. They do introduce phase delays, and I assume that Rigol shifts the filtered output to the left to correct for that (i.e. make the filtered and unfiltered traces line up better). That would cause the missing output on the right side of the screen.

This would make sense. In my test 1/2 of filter freq period was missing. 1/4 from start, 1/4 from end. Half of period sounds about right amount to get correct value. So Rigol engineer deserved some LICKI treatment with this one. It works (almost) correctly! However Start|End should rather change area being filtered, not move trace...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 05, 2017, 12:39:14 pm
Rigol, it's not too hard.

Hard vs. easy doesn't seem to be a factor. One word: "Pluses". :horse:

I think "Pluses" is an inside joke at Rigol.  :popcorn:


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 05, 2017, 01:02:16 pm
I admit that digital filters are not my area of expertise, but from what i remember for an M tap filter i would expect that the first M output samples would be """wrong""" and i can see why they would be discarded. what i don't see is a reason to discard the samples on the right

Yes, but an M-tap filter is usually done as a compromise in places where you can't do a proper filter.

A window which extends both ways is much better.

eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_filter

And this explains perfectly why there's a gap at both ends.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 04:33:46 pm
Hello,
i can count two:
 - doesn't use the full trace, can't see why it shouldn't
 - "end" control doesn't do nothing
Sorry for you!
Ther is no bug or issue. It's the algorithm of calculation IIR, FIR or what ever Filter you want of a limited range of data points. (See Mathematica or other math program an the theorie of digital filters ...)
LG Wolf

Ah! I just had to sit down for a moment and draw a quick graph, it's so simple i feel even more of a fool. Apologies, guys.

So, the filter is filtering correctly, now if you want we have to decide what start and end should do
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on April 05, 2017, 04:52:12 pm
Hello,
So, the filter is filtering correctly, now if you want we have to decide what start and end should do
I have no idea what RIGOL it had thought. I have currently no application for it. But likely to restrict the datarange what it does well.
LG Wolf
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on April 05, 2017, 05:07:50 pm
So, the filter is filtering correctly, now if you want we have to decide what start and end should do

Mental note - start and end filter adjustments break the filter trace by phase shifting about 1/2 division (I think always 1/2 division and not 1/2 period).


Can someone compile a list of all the known bugs from the previous firmware release together with some pointers on how to reproduce the issues?
I need to admit that I lost track of all the quirks in the course of this thread, but would be happy to test on the new firmware and share my findings.

:D Frederik :-/O

Indeed! They seem to keep coming out of the woodwork. Life was grand when all I knew about was 5 bugs at once... which I think have all been resolved.

Now we have this filter endpoint bug and sin(x)/x interpolation toggle, and the USB packet size reporting. These seem minor unless you have a specific application for them, which would be significant obstacle. I'm probably missing something else...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 05, 2017, 05:18:18 pm
Can someone compile a list of all the known bugs from the previous firmware release together with some pointers on how to reproduce the issues?
I need to admit that I lost track of all the quirks in the course of this thread, but would be happy to test on the new firmware and share my findings.

:D Frederik :-/O

There is a separate thread for this: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/)

Katie, the original poster, has done a great job keeping the initial post update for a while, but I believe it has now gone out of date. Maybe we can revive it? In any case, please let's keep the bug collection in that thread, rather than start a new one here.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 05, 2017, 05:34:26 pm

There is a separate thread for this: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/)

Katie, the original poster, has done a great job keeping the initial post update for a while, but I believe it has now gone out of date. Maybe we can revive it? In any case, please let's keep the bug collection in that thread, rather than start a new one here.

Thanks,
I totally forgot about that and basically it just popped up after I wrote the request here.

Font size does not keep resetting on restart if "last" is selected, with the new FW.
I will contact the buglist thread OP, to review the buglist and offer my help on testing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 05:35:51 pm
Now we have this filter endpoint bug

no, that is actually correct... but wait! i'm uploading a video about start and end cursors.
I have also something one could call a bug in the I2C trigger, if i'm able to reproduce it (basically, set it up so you can trigger on start condition. power down, power up: same settings, can't trigger. change trigger type, change it back to I2C, now it can trigger. setting are the same as before power down) i found that out while i was working on an i2c comm. stack, i was done for the day and the following morning i powered the scope on, couldn't trigger unless i set it up again

Meanwhile, with invert on, all modes.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170405/3fd1ffcb2a7703dbd4e9558968013047.jpg)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 06:06:35 pm
Argue away..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjLOPqxUiZg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjLOPqxUiZg)

- Used the probe compensation signal
- Horizontal, vertical, math scale, type of filter and cutoff settings don't affect the result.

Start cursor at the leftmost, end cursor does - NOT - effect the filter. Move the start cursor on right and the trace is shifted right, like it was before the update.
Then keep moving it right and after about 1 div it starts limiting the filter area. (note: it's the point where the correctly positioned trace starts.)
note how the filtered trace changes: it's not blanking what's before, it seems like it starts filtering from that point, right?
i think i'd say it's the correct behaviour (or at least the one i'd expect) but then why not show the complete trace from the start? the appereance should be the same, right?

update on "invert" bug, the bugged portion is what's on the right of the END marker
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 05, 2017, 06:28:53 pm
From your vid, the two anomalies I see are

1. Sudden phase shift when altering the filter start parameter. It appears that the fix for phase-shifted display doesn't apply when the start point is changed from default.

2. The filter end only works after a filter start is applied.

Correct?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 05, 2017, 06:34:00 pm
yes, this is what i'm seeing (then other minor things one could argue about)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 06, 2017, 05:13:27 am

There is a separate thread for this: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/)

Katie, the original poster, has done a great job keeping the initial post update for a while, but I believe it has now gone out of date. Maybe we can revive it? In any case, please let's keep the bug collection in that thread, rather than start a new one here.

Thanks,
I totally forgot about that and basically it just popped up after I wrote the request here.

Katie posted a message there today calling for a volunteer to manage the bug thread.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 06, 2017, 08:54:03 am
Katie posted a message there today calling for a volunteer to manage the bug thread.

Really it's time for a new bug thread. Several rounds of firmware updates have gone by since that thread was started so most of the old one is irrelevant

Rigol also doesn't appear to be reading this forum so the "wish list" part is probably a waste of time.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on April 06, 2017, 09:20:12 am
Out of curiosity - what this filter-thing do if you zoom in? Say you want to get rid of missing area - maybe applying larger timebase and zooming in helps (if can sustain sample rate etc)?
And second thing - can you apply auto-measurements to filtered trace?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 06, 2017, 09:46:49 am
no, it always uses the on screen data
yes you can apply the auto measurements. i don't remember if the items on the leftmost becomes purple when you select the math channel.. but if you go inside measurements menu oyu can select math trace as a source and then apply the measurements you want
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: k8943 on April 06, 2017, 01:29:14 pm
Anyone experienced with using the SPI decoder?

I've setup:

- edge trigger to CLK (with noise suppression turned off - didn't work with);
- in Timeout mode

Am getting quite confused. In the decoder MOSI/ MISO lines the scope seems to display a hex block for each iteration of the CLK line. To the point I'm starting to doubt I know the difference between a bit and a byte!

If, on the other hand, I zoom out (to include many more clock iterations) the decode blocks appear just as little lines. As though the scope can't see the bytes for the bits?

What am I (probably) doing wrong?

ps tried turning Timeout all the way up and all the way down but didn't solve the problem.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 06, 2017, 01:42:44 pm
Anyone experienced with using the SPI decoder?

This video (not by me) shows a walk-through demo of the SPI decoder. Not sure whether it helps in resolving your issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM58zg55-3A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM58zg55-3A)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 06, 2017, 02:22:44 pm
i can't understand the signal you are looking at. where/which is the clock? which is the data? which is CS?
with timeout, it will try to decode a packet of n bits after the first edge. if it hits the timeout, aborts decoding and wait for next edge
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: k8943 on April 06, 2017, 02:36:16 pm
@ebastier that video was helpful, working much better now. Can start debugging my code!

- he's right: seems that CS mode works where timeout mode fails or is unreliable. Set up the 4th channel for CS and now get meaningful results;

- he also advises to manually set Thresholds - auto-threshold might lead to a misinterpretation of signals depending on when you start the process;

@jportici, CLK stand out in the photo as the pink trace, the blue traces are MISO and MOSI, there was no CS. You mention that it starts counting bits after "edge". It's not clear to me - nor the guy who made that video - which "edge" is being referred to in the Decoder menu? Presumably it's not necessarily the same as the Edge that might have been selected in the Trigger menu. Is it the CLK signal edge?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on April 06, 2017, 02:59:53 pm
the decoder has to first delimit a frame... it counts n rising/falling clock edges after the frame start.
With CS signal the start of frame is easy: the first rising/falling clock edge after CS.
with timeout.. the decoder is idle, at the first edge it will start counting.. the frame ends either at the nth edge or at timeout.

in your configuration you have put 4.23 us for timeout. that's too short, your packet is about 100 us long. what is happening is that it acquires the first bit (zero) then there is timeout, so it shows a zero byte. at the following edge it starts again, again zero. if you increased the timeout you would see the complete byte

if you zoom out you will see the events labels too tight, that's when the event list comes in handy.
if you zoom out too much you will see garbage because the decoding is done from the screen memory (even if trace is 1Meg samples long, the screen buffer is not.) so it doesn't decode properly
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: k8943 on April 06, 2017, 03:06:47 pm
Super clear explanation.

Thanks.

In consequence just discovered the small detail on the Timeout Icon that explains that if you push on the rotary dial it brings up a keyboard that allows you to enter long durations for the timeout period (previously I'd just been rotating under which conditions it's difficult to even reach 10us.).

With that, and your explanation of timeout and edges, the problem is now officially resolved!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Howardlong on April 06, 2017, 05:59:35 pm
I have also something one could call a bug in the I2C trigger, if i'm able to reproduce it (basically, set it up so you can trigger on start condition. power down, power up: same settings, can't trigger. change trigger type, change it back to I2C, now it can trigger.

Similar here, I managed to reproduce a problem on I2C start triggering on another thread immediately after updating to the latest firmware, I am certain this used to work, it's such a common use case.

I "fixed" it slightly differently, and then couldn't get it to go wrong again.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-i2c-decoder-trigger-on-start-condition/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-i2c-decoder-trigger-on-start-condition/)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on April 06, 2017, 06:44:27 pm
I have a question on segmented memory record as I think there is a bug with the settings. I may have gone through this once already, so apologies if I've forgotten.

The first thing I am confused about is how can I set a recording Interval time that is less than my sweep time? I think Interval is the time between the start of recording a new segment (or frame). How can a new segment start recording before the sweep of the current recording completes? Will it just wait for the sweep and then the next frame starts right on the next sweep? That might explain the following.

I had record set up for a few us interval of 5000 length. I get all 5000 segments (frames) recorded in a few ms. I had messed around with the Interval, making it very long (1s) with a short length of 60. I see each segment is recorded at a 1 second rate. Later I had the Interval set low in the ns range with short length, and it was recording segments (frames) at a ~1s rate. I am expecting it to zip through the record and it is taking like a minute to get Interval of 100 ns and Length of 60 to complete.

So, I think the Interval setting gets out of control, unless I just hadn't noticed I had a very long sweep, if Interval waits for the sweep...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on April 11, 2017, 10:03:08 pm
Anyone find anything else with the new firmware? The frenzy seemed to die pretty quick.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on April 12, 2017, 06:47:05 am
Anyone find anything else with the new firmware? The frenzy seemed to die pretty quick.

I think that now very few people are willing to try an update.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on April 12, 2017, 07:27:18 am
Anyone find anything else with the new firmware? The frenzy seemed to die pretty quick.

I think that now very few people are willing to try an update.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1178514/#msg1178514 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1178514/#msg1178514)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on April 12, 2017, 07:35:30 am
I've updated my MSO1104Z-S with the latest Firmware too, and all went smooth. Haven't noticed anything negative yet, but I also haven't used it much since then.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 12, 2017, 07:55:43 am
Anyone find anything else with the new firmware? The frenzy seemed to die pretty quick.

I think that now very few people are willing to try an update.

Why would that be the case?! We have not seen a huge wave of reports on this firmware update, but the ones that were posted did not suggest any negative side effects, and confirmed a few improvements.

I think we have simply moved to "business as usual" with the DS1000Z. It's not the scope itself anymore that is the hobby, or a "project" of it's own, but people simply use it. It is nice that Rigol still publishes the occasional firmware update, but there are no major problems anymore (and no breakthrough improvements in the firmware). Overall, that's a good state of affairs in my view.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on April 12, 2017, 08:01:25 am
It is nice that Rigol still publishes the occasional firmware update, but there are no major problems anymore (and no breakthrough improvements in the firmware). Overall, that's a good state of affairs in my view.  :)

+1, business perspective, I respect and honor Rigol, even though this model is released for quite some years now, they're not ignoring it even though its the entry level cheap scope, and keeping the man powers to maintain it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: canibalimao on April 12, 2017, 08:02:09 am
Anyone find anything else with the new firmware? The frenzy seemed to die pretty quick.

I think that now very few people are willing to try an update.

Why would that be the case?! We have not seen a huge wave of reports on this firmware update, but the ones that were posted did not suggest any negative side effects, and confirmed a few improvements.

I think we have simply moved to "business as usual" with the DS1000Z. It's not the scope itself anymore that is the hobby, or a "project" of it's own, but people simply use it. It is nice that Rigol still publishes the occasional firmware update, but there are no major problems anymore (and no breakthrough improvements in the firmware). Overall, that's a good state of affairs in my view.  :)

Because on the last update some users got a faulty scope.
And, unlike usual, we didn't see that much user reports here on the forum related to the new firmware. Just some occasional thumbs up to the update, but not a big discussion. This makes me believe that not much people did the update...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 12, 2017, 08:10:18 am
Anyone find anything else with the new firmware? The frenzy seemed to die pretty quick.

I think that now very few people are willing to try an update.

 :-//

People updated and reported the results. What exactly were you expecting?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 12, 2017, 08:14:00 am
Because on the last update some users got a faulty scope.

Did you want a repeat of that?

And, unlike usual, we didn't see that much user reports here on the forum related to the new firmware. Just some occasional thumbs up to the update, but not a big discussion.

There was several pages of discussion, mostly about the low pass filter fix.

Maybe just not the discussion of complete disaster and bricked oscilloscopes you were hoping for...?

This makes me believe that not much people did the update...

 :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 12, 2017, 09:01:06 am
I started a new thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-buglist-continued-(from-fw-00-04-04-03-02)/) to cover bugs and issues in the latest firmware release, because kwass can not spare the time to maintain the original thread atm.
Right now the first posting is just a place holder (FYI)

Edit: Thread has started to become functional and a bunch of the reported bugs seem to be resolved.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on April 12, 2017, 05:34:12 pm
Well, for the record, I'm gunshy too... I suspect there is no rigorous regression testing... so the guinea pigs need to do that and report back what bug about measure was fixed and the complete effects, like what was done for the bug about filter.  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 12, 2017, 05:51:02 pm
It's not the scope itself anymore that is the hobby, or a "project" of it's own, but people simply use it.

Exactly. Even with the previous version of the firmware, not all the issues were surfaced right away. I don't generally update immediately, yet I had finished updating my scope before Rigol pulled the firmware for having problems with older scopes. So, it may take some time for something to pop up through normal use.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on April 18, 2017, 02:10:16 pm
New firmware is available - or do my eyes deceive me?  :-//

2017-04-18 is today ...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daruosha on April 18, 2017, 02:16:34 pm
New firmware is available - or do my eyes deceive me?  :-//

2017-04-18 is today ...

Strangely when I downloaded the firmware, in the release note it says:
v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14
     - Supported the multi-inteface of LXI
     - Fixed bugs about Measure

and the firmware version on the download link is something totally wrong!! WTF!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 18, 2017, 02:20:42 pm
Horse manure much.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on April 18, 2017, 02:20:50 pm
Strangely when I downloaded the firmware, in the release note it says:
v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14
     - Supported the multi-inteface of LXI
     - Fixed bugs about Measure

and the firmware version on the download link is something totally wrong!! WTF!

I just tried an update and the scope says I already have the same version!  :rant:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daruosha on April 18, 2017, 02:21:56 pm
Strangely when I downloaded the firmware, in the release note it says:
v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14
     - Supported the multi-inteface of LXI
     - Fixed bugs about Measure

and the firmware version on the download link is something totally wrong!! WTF!

I just tried an update and the scope says I already have the same version!  :rant:

Bunch of careless webmaster/operators I'd say.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on April 18, 2017, 02:24:00 pm
I knew it was too good to be true.  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on April 18, 2017, 02:27:02 pm
'fess up, deep down you hoped for that "Pluses" fix!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 18, 2017, 02:28:42 pm
In case anyone wonders: Latest Software is v.00.04.04.03.02, discussed in this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-buglist-continued-(from-fw-00-04-04-03-02)/).

Should I upload the latest file somewhere, since Rigol somehow screwed up again?

Edit: Added direct link to latest software from Rigol site
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 18, 2017, 11:18:59 pm
So, what's the deal with the new date? Just part of the web site snafu?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on April 18, 2017, 11:44:58 pm
So, what's the deal with the new date? Just part of the web site snafu?

 :-//

I just checked and the internal rar file is still the old one. I was hoping that they were going to update the "payload" later today, but it didn't happen. I think a jokester at Rigol knows that we all freak out when we see updated firmware, and was just wanting to see how we would react to the date.  >:(

'fess up, deep down you hoped for that "Pluses" fix!

I've been dreaming of it, for months. Same as them fixing the upside down .jpg screen shot that the DSA815 does LOL.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 18, 2017, 11:48:16 pm
Maybe April Fools is on the 18th for them. ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on April 19, 2017, 12:16:10 am
So, what's the deal with the new date? Just part of the web site snafu?
These Chinese companies still don't know much about brand image and all that crap. Just look at the Rigol logos.

Look at the logo here:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

And compare to the logo here:
http://int.rigol.com (http://int.rigol.com)

I guess it's different teams managing both websites. I wouldn't be surprised if the "beyondmeasure" URL was somehow
meant for internal use/special access to select distributors or whatever.



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on April 19, 2017, 12:20:03 am
And compare to the logo here:
http://int.rigol.com (http://int.rigol.com)

(http://int.rigol.com/Images/logo1-(1).png)

I don't think I ever saw that one before, or I didn't pay attention to the text.

"Innovation or Nothing"

What an odd statement.  ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on April 19, 2017, 12:24:57 pm
Aha, just downloaded it, now the payload of the rar file is updated. Just installed it on the scope. The system reports -

Before: 00.04.04.SP1

After: 00.04.04.SP3

In case anyone wonders: Latest Software is v.00.04.04.03.02 ...

That's what the file folder says when you extract it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mauroh on April 19, 2017, 01:28:55 pm
Looking on the last pages I can say that I have a really old Boot Version 0.0.0.11 compared to the common 0.0.1.2 or 0.0.1.3 I see frequently.

Does the Boot Version will be upgraded performing the software upgrade or it will remain the same?
It need to be done separately with an oldest release?

I was wandering if a minimim Boot Version is required before attempting the latest upgrade, I read the release note and can't spot it.

Thanks
Mauro
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 19, 2017, 02:03:22 pm
"Innovation or Nothing"
What an odd statement.  ::)

Indeed. "Dear customers, for this new product we have decided to go with the 'nothing' approach. Expect some innovation with our next new launch."  ;)

I think it's safe to assume that the motto is based on a more meaningful Chinese original. Probably someone in Rigol's US organization has objected long ago, and established the "Beyond Measure" tag line -- which I find quite clever actually, but which apparently hasn't made to all English-speaking parts of the company.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 19, 2017, 02:17:54 pm
Updating the bootloader seems possible through a different firmware file, see: page 79 of this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/1950/). Please go from there :)
Also, here is some info on unique capabilities of the older boot version: How to downgrade DS1000Z FW (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade-*is*-possible-and-here-is-how/)

How well your scope likes the new firmware without boot version update, I don’t know. In case you are fearless and go for the whole experience, please let us know how it all went and also:

If someone can point us / me towards the latest "Boot Version" update file, that would be nice. I would want to include that in the buglist / update thread.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 19, 2017, 04:15:10 pm
Updating the bootloader seems possible through a different firmware file, see: page 79 of this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/1950/). Please go from there :)
Also, here is some info on unique capabilities of the older boot version: How to downgrade DS1000Z FW (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade-*is*-possible-and-here-is-how/)

How well your scope likes the new firmware without boot version update, I don’t know. In case you are fearless and go for the whole experience, please let us know how it all went and also:

If someone can point us / me towards the latest "Boot Version" update file, that would be nice. I would want to include that in the buglist / update thread.

Post #1964, on page 79 of this thread, mentions version 04.00.00.00 as the last one confirmed to include a boot loader update. A copy is hosted at http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z) (in 7-zip format, whatever that is...). There is contradictory information on that page whether the later 04.01.02.00 also included a boot loader update.

Also some unclear statements in posts #1968 ff. whether that old boot loader update can still be installed once you have a more recent firmware in place. The posts seem to say that the answer is "no", but I am not sure whether everybody clearly distinguished between boot loader and firmware there. (We know that it is not possible to downgrade the firmware. But does Rigol really prevent you from upgrading the boot loader, if the firmware version has been upgraded even further in the meantime? Doesn't make sense to me...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 19, 2017, 04:26:19 pm
Thank you ebastler,

maybe I should contact Rigol on this, since poking in the dark will not really move things forward.

Edit: I made an account over at the "official" Rigol forum (http://rigol.desk.com) and filed a request for some info on upgradeability of boot version vs. software version and asked for the latest boot version update files etc.
Will keep you posted..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 19, 2017, 05:37:04 pm
Post #1964, on page 79 of this thread, mentions version 04.00.00.00 as the last one confirmed to include a boot loader update. A copy is hosted at http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS1000Z-04_00_00_00.7z) (in 7-zip format, whatever that is...).

7-Zip is an open-source archive tool: http://www.7-zip.org/ (http://www.7-zip.org/)

Supported formats:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mauroh on April 19, 2017, 06:55:15 pm
Guinea-Pig mode ON!!!!

I just upgraded my DS1104Z (it was a DS1074Z) with the latest firmware.
As expected the Boot Version remain the old one and everything went fine.
I successfully performed a Self-Cal and attached you can see the traces almost perfectly aligned to the zero reference as before the upgrade.

I'll use it normally and let you know if something will go wrong.

Mauro
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ted572 on April 24, 2017, 07:14:53 pm
The following procedure can be used to  Sanitize Memory in the DS1000Z Series Oscilloscopes  This is similar to the procedure released by Rigol (Titled: Sanitization of memory with the DS1000Z series of oscilloscopes) with some additional details.

Edit Added -> Re-Calibration Requirement: Sanitization of the instrument's memory will of course erase the stored Self-Calibration values.  Therefore it is important to perform Self-Calibration following Sanitization.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 25, 2017, 01:09:52 pm
Edit: I made an account over at the "official" Rigol forum (http://rigol.desk.com) and filed a request for some info on upgradeability of boot version vs. software version and asked for the latest boot version update files etc.
Will keep you posted..

Fuck the rigol.desk.com support site by the way!

My request for info on boot version updates, software rollback etc. just got flagged as "resolved" together with a note saying "We have not posted your question yet."
I can not even click the "I still have an issue with this" button.
Marvelous! :horse: |O :horse: |O :horse: |O :horse: |O :horse: |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: asliyucegsm on April 25, 2017, 02:04:23 pm
My friend doing flash erase damaging device
ds1054z
thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 25, 2017, 02:32:27 pm
My friend doing flash erase damaging device
ds1054z
thanks

Haiku?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on April 25, 2017, 04:08:45 pm
My friend doing flash erase damaging device
ds1054z
thanks

Haiku?

Pastel lines fly past:
Brief signals frozen in time
Flawed tools can do much.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on April 25, 2017, 04:24:35 pm
That's brilliant.

Reads Harikiri.
While that is still Japanese,
it not quite the same.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 25, 2017, 05:45:57 pm
Pastel lines fly past:
Brief signals frozen in time
Flawed tools can do much.

Nicely done!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on April 25, 2017, 08:53:59 pm
My friend doing flash erase damaging device
ds1054z
thanks

Haiku?

Pastel lines fly past:
Brief signals frozen in time
Flawed tools can do much.
OK, the forum has been played through its endgame. We can all go home now.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/053/113/LastPageOfTheInternet.jpg)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kandrey89 on April 29, 2017, 09:49:33 am
Bought DS1104Z-S for the company, a couple of things pissed me off right away. Didn't have time to perform upgrades, shipped the scope out to our second office, for an emergency measurement system install.

1. The channel zero marker on the left is lower than the GND level, by as much as 0.2 grid height, it's painfully visible.
2. The frequency and voltage selection for the source generator is insanely complicated. The small knob that scrolls the frequency up and down changes values too easily when trying to click the knob. The frequency entry using the scroll knob is horrible because the knob keeps changing numbers because of how smooth the scroll is when you try to press the knob to select one of the numbers for manual entry.
3. There's no way to change source generator units from: Vpk2pk/Offset to Vhigh/Vlow. Really stupid to setup a pulse because I needed to set 300mV Vpk2pk and Offset to 1/2 of Vpk2pk in order to get 300mV Vhigh and 0mV Vlow.

Has any of these been addressed in any of the firmware updates?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on April 29, 2017, 10:03:21 am
Hello,
Bought DS1104Z-S for the company, a couple of things pissed me off right away. Didn't have time to perform upgrades, ...
Don't cry! Update - SelfCalibrate - ... and learn  :popcorn:
Or, buy another Scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 30, 2017, 11:10:12 am
Bought DS1104Z-S for the company, a couple of things pissed me off right away...

1. The channel zero marker on the left is lower than the GND level, by as much as 0.2 grid height, it's painfully visible.

Welcome to the physical world, where all devices have specified tolerances and are less than 100% perfect.

Your chosen device's specifications are:

Code: [Select]
DC Offset Accuracy: ±0.1 div ±2 mV ±1% offset value
DC Gain Accuracy: <10 mV: ±4% full scale ?10 mV: ±3% full scale

Do a self-calibration and see if it improves a bit. Remember; the DC offset may change with temperature so you have to switch it on and leave it for half an hour in the place you intend to use it before you do the self-calibration. You also have to warm it up to that exact temperature before the voltage readings will be within the spec above.

In practice a tiny bit of DC offset doesn't matter:
a) The primary function of an oscilloscope is to look at the shape of signals and to see how they vary with time.
b) The 'low' signal put out by your devices probably isn't 0.000000V anyway, it's just 'low'.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on April 30, 2017, 01:37:22 pm
Regarding self calibration, for those who has upgraded to the latest 04.04.03.02, you can save the scope's calibration values , and keep it for archival. At least this will be interesting to see if there is any major difference on next future self calibration.

Detail on saving the scope calibration values was posted here -> Save CalData.txt  (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-buglist-continued-(from-fw-00-04-04-03-02)/msg1192923/#msg1192923)

Again, this feature only available at 04.04.03.02.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Winkhaus on May 04, 2017, 06:24:24 am
I am not sure where did you get the idea about the 5000 * 12k points. It simply dumps either whatever is on the screen, if you select "Screen" as the source or the entire memory of the scope, if you select "Memory". There is no concept of "frames" there - what are you referring to?
I'm pretty much certain he was thinking about segmented memory recording. At 12k points per frame / segment / trigger event, that would be 500 waveforms to fill the 6Mpts memory per channel though.

I have not tried segmented memory yet but I'm guessing the memory dump function only dumps the currently selected segment.

Hello all,

I'm a newbie DS1054Z user and I believe I have run into this issue.
 
I'm trying to capture and download about 10 seconds of single channel audio waveform which is roughly 50-100mV P-P.  I set MDepth=120kpts and TScale=100ms/div and the scope solves for SRate=100kpts/sec.  I was able to record the waveform (I'm using the trial version of the recording feature) and store a CSV format file on the USB stick.  However, the file is only 120k lines long which is only 1.2 seconds worth of data.

Can anyone tell me if there's a simple work-around for this? Is it easy to program SCPI commands to retrieve the data?

Or alternatively, is there a simpler scope or device that can do what I need?  I realize I could probably just feed the signal into the PC audio jack and analyze it that way, but I was hoping for a reasonably user-friendly device with a display, over-voltage protection, selectable voltage and time scales, etc.

Thanks,
Winkhaus



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 04, 2017, 07:36:51 am
I set MDepth=120kpts... store a CSV format file on the USB stick... the file is only 120k lines long

That's correct.  :popcorn:

Can anyone tell me if there's a simple work-around for this?

Increase MDepth...?

Is it easy to program SCPI commands to retrieve the data?

SCPI is easy, much easier than saving CSV to sticks, etc., if you're going to use it a lot. It gives access to every function of the oscilloscope.

All you do is connect to TCP port 5555 and send the commands as ASCII text. You can play with it using telnet ("telnet 5555").

Programming guide is here (http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/1200000-1299999/001230760-an-01-en-PROGRAMMING_GUIDE_RIGOL_MSO1074Z_OSZILLO.pdf)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 04, 2017, 10:33:21 am
I'm trying to capture and download about 10 seconds of single channel audio waveform which is roughly 50-100mV P-P.  I set MDepth=120kpts and TScale=100ms/div and the scope solves for SRate=100kpts/sec.  I was able to record the waveform (I'm using the trial version of the recording feature) and store a CSV format file on the USB stick.  However, the file is only 120k lines long which is only 1.2 seconds worth of data.

Can anyone tell me if there's a simple work-around for this?

You have to do two things, I think:
(a) Increase your time base setting, to 1s/div. Otherwise, why should the scope take 10 seconds' worth of data? It will only capture one screen's width of data.
(b) Increase MDepth, as 120 kpts/10s are probably not enough for audio sampling.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on May 04, 2017, 11:06:46 am
I'm trying to capture and download about 10 seconds of single channel audio waveform which is roughly 50-100mV P-P.  I set MDepth=120kpts and TScale=100ms/div and the scope solves for SRate=100kpts/sec.  I was able to record the waveform (I'm using the trial version of the recording feature) and store a CSV format file on the USB stick.  However, the file is only 120k lines long which is only 1.2 seconds worth of data.

Can anyone tell me if there's a simple work-around for this? Is it easy to program SCPI commands to retrieve the data?

First, amplify your audiosignal with a factor 10 at least. Otherwise it will be too noisy.
Any mediocre audio opamp will do better than no opamp at all.

Second, set the memory depth to the maximum e.g. 24Mpts.

Third, download the waveform data, not the display data.
Easiest way to do this is by using DSRemote.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Winkhaus on May 04, 2017, 11:47:17 am

Ok, I probably wasn't clear enough.  When I recorded the waveform it captured I think 10 or 12 screens of data (screen=frame=segment ?), and I didn't understand why it only downloaded one of those screens to the CSV file.  I think you're telling me the solution is to have it record everything on one screen.  So I need to increase both TScale and MDepth while holding SRate constant.  I'll give that a try.  But I still don't understand why, if you're recording multiple screens, you can't download all of those screens.

About amplifying the signal, sorry for the dumb Q, but how does that make it less noisy?  And what's the point of having millivolt ranges if you have to use op-amps prior to sending the signal to the scope?

Thanks for the replies.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on May 04, 2017, 12:00:16 pm
About amplifying the signal, sorry for the dumb Q, but how does that make it less noisy?  And what's the point of having millivolt ranges if you have to use op-amps prior to sending the signal to the scope?

Because the input stages of DSO's are very noisy, specially at the milli-Volt level.
Short explanation: this is because the designers have to make a compromise between low-noise and high-bandwidth when selecting components for
the analog input section.

p.s.: why do you want to record multiple frames (with time gaps between them)?
Most people want to download the waveformdata as one contiguous block of samples.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on May 04, 2017, 12:27:17 pm
About amplifying the signal, sorry for the dumb Q, but how does that make it less noisy?  And what's the point of having millivolt ranges if you have to use op-amps prior to sending the signal to the scope?

The input stage has a JFET or MOSFET source follower acting as an impedance converter leading to a tradeoff between noise and bandwidth.  A small area (low capacitance) FET is needed for high bandwidth but small area FETs have higher noise.  Higher bandwidth oscilloscopes have less sensitive volts/div settings and this is why; it does not make much sense to have higher sensitivity if it just results in more than a division of displayed noise.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Winkhaus on May 04, 2017, 02:14:46 pm
p.s.: why do you want to record multiple frames (with time gaps between them)?
Most people want to download the waveformdata as one contiguous block of samples.

I don't really, I just thought that was the way you were supposed to do it.  The recording feature does allow for multiple frames and a 100ns gap between frames wouldn't really bother me.  But I would think if you have the ability to record multiple frames you should also be able to easily see which frames are currently stored in memory and be able to download them all to a USB stick, which was basically my original question.

About amplifying the signal, sorry for the dumb Q, but how does that make it less noisy?  And what's the point of having millivolt ranges if you have to use op-amps prior to sending the signal to the scope?

The input stage has a JFET or MOSFET source follower acting as an impedance converter leading to a tradeoff between noise and bandwidth.  A small area (low capacitance) FET is needed for high bandwidth but small area FETs have higher noise.  Higher bandwidth oscilloscopes have less sensitive volts/div settings and this is why; it does not make much sense to have higher sensitivity if it just results in more than a division of displayed noise.

Ok, thanks for that explanation.  Since I'm mostly interested in low-frequency (<20KHz) and low amplitude signals, maybe this scope isn't the best tool for the job?  Do you have any alternative suggestions?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on May 04, 2017, 03:00:22 pm
any sound card / audio interface? do you need DC? there are DC coupled audio interfaces and oscilloscope software for your computer
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 04, 2017, 03:03:01 pm
Since I'm mostly interested in low-frequency (<20KHz) and low amplitude signals, maybe this scope isn't the best tool for the job?  Do you have any alternative suggestions?

Well, a decent sound card of course (plug-in or USB). They have A/D converters with much higher dynamic range (lower analog noise, more digital bits). 96 kHz and 192 kHz sampling rate are commonplace.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on May 04, 2017, 03:30:23 pm
I'm still interested in the question about downloading all of the memory segments. Is this just a matter of selecting memory vs. screen data as what to save to the USB stick?

I'm not by my scope, and I give up looking for it in the user manual, so I don't recall exactly what the terms were in the save settings, something like memory or screen. This is something I want to do to take very long measurements (like 14 hours), and create a plot on the PC.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Winkhaus on May 04, 2017, 03:43:59 pm

Yes, I think a sound card is probably the direction I'm going to go with this.  I would like to be able to see signals in the range of a few mV to 15-20V P-P with frequencies of <20KHz, and yes, I would want to see the DC offset, if any.  I also want to be sure I'm not going to fry the device if I accidentally put 15-20V into an input that's only expecting 1V or so.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on May 04, 2017, 06:12:23 pm
The input stage has a JFET or MOSFET source follower acting as an impedance converter leading to a tradeoff between noise and bandwidth.  A small area (low capacitance) FET is needed for high bandwidth but small area FETs have higher noise.  Higher bandwidth oscilloscopes have less sensitive volts/div settings and this is why; it does not make much sense to have higher sensitivity if it just results in more than a division of displayed noise.

Ok, thanks for that explanation.  Since I'm mostly interested in low-frequency (<20KHz) and low amplitude signals, maybe this scope isn't the best tool for the job?  Do you have any alternative suggestions?

An amplifier is one option; the gain of the amplifier effectively divides the noise from the oscilloscope front end.  One interesting option for this is the old Tektronix AM502 1MHz differential amplifier (http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/AM502) (1) which not only supports gains from 1 to 100k but has differential inputs and variable low and high pass filters; the output from the AM502 plugs into a singled ended oscilloscope or other instrument giving it differential input capability.

Some old and out of production lower bandwidth oscilloscopes have high sensitivity and low noise but that is probably not the best option and if you want to do audio analysis, then a general purpose oscilloscope or DSO is not the best instrument.  They are good for development work and tracking down high frequency spurious oscillations though.

For audio, some sound cards are a good option when combined with audio analysis software.  The thing I would look for however is differential inputs because otherwise ground loops will prevent low noise operation.  That is one of the big advantages of the Tektronix AM502 mentioned above and it could be used with a sound card.

Some useful links:

http://www.clarisonus.com/Research%20Reports/RR001-SoundCardEval/RR001-PCsoundCards.html (http://www.clarisonus.com/Research%20Reports/RR001-SoundCardEval/RR001-PCsoundCards.html)
https://trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm (https://trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm)
https://trueaudio.com/rta_usb.htm (https://trueaudio.com/rta_usb.htm)
https://quantasylum.com/products/qa401-audio-analyzer (https://quantasylum.com/products/qa401-audio-analyzer)

(1) I have one AM502 and a pair of 7A22s which are basically the same thing but built into an oscilloscope.  I use them for small signal audio work and noise analysis.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gary.M on May 04, 2017, 10:17:06 pm
The input stage has a JFET or MOSFET source follower acting as an impedance converter leading to a tradeoff between noise and bandwidth.  A small area (low capacitance) FET is needed for high bandwidth but small area FETs have higher noise.  Higher bandwidth oscilloscopes have less sensitive volts/div settings and this is why; it does not make much sense to have higher sensitivity if it just results in more than a division of displayed noise.

Ok, thanks for that explanation.  Since I'm mostly interested in low-frequency (<20KHz) and low amplitude signals, maybe this scope isn't the best tool for the job?  Do you have any alternative suggestions?

An amplifier is one option; the gain of the amplifier effectively divides the noise from the oscilloscope front end.  One interesting option for this is the old Tektronix AM502 1MHz differential amplifier (http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/AM502) (1) which not only supports gains from 1 to 100k but has differential inputs and variable low and high pass filters; the output from the AM502 plugs into a singled ended oscilloscope or other instrument giving it differential input capability.

Some old and out of production lower bandwidth oscilloscopes have high sensitivity and low noise but that is probably not the best option and if you want to do audio analysis, then a general purpose oscilloscope or DSO is not the best instrument.  They are good for development work and tracking down high frequency spurious oscillations though.

For audio, some sound cards are a good option when combined with audio analysis software.  The thing I would look for however is differential inputs because otherwise ground loops will prevent low noise operation.  That is one of the big advantages of the Tektronix AM502 mentioned above and it could be used with a sound card.

Some useful links:

http://www.clarisonus.com/Research%20Reports/RR001-SoundCardEval/RR001-PCsoundCards.html (http://www.clarisonus.com/Research%20Reports/RR001-SoundCardEval/RR001-PCsoundCards.html)
https://trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm (https://trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm)
https://trueaudio.com/rta_usb.htm (https://trueaudio.com/rta_usb.htm)
https://quantasylum.com/products/qa401-audio-analyzer (https://quantasylum.com/products/qa401-audio-analyzer)

(1) I have one AM502 and a pair of 7A22s which are basically the same thing but built into an oscilloscope.  I use them for small signal audio work and noise analysis.
Looking at the True Rta site and the usb options the Scarlett Solo could be a good option and the Tascam, which I recently looked closely at could be exceptional. Current models of both are usb2 and sample up to 192k.The Tascam has a rated 123db dynamic range. The QuantAsylum devices are good and self contained. I have a 1054z and a QA400 for audio work.

Sent from my x600 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Winkhaus on May 05, 2017, 03:29:27 am
I'm trying to capture and download about 10 seconds of single channel audio waveform which is roughly 50-100mV P-P.  I set MDepth=120kpts and TScale=100ms/div and the scope solves for SRate=100kpts/sec.  I was able to record the waveform (I'm using the trial version of the recording feature) and store a CSV format file on the USB stick.  However, the file is only 120k lines long which is only 1.2 seconds worth of data.

Can anyone tell me if there's a simple work-around for this?

You have to do two things, I think:
(a) Increase your time base setting, to 1s/div. Otherwise, why should the scope take 10 seconds' worth of data? It will only capture one screen's width of data.
(b) Increase MDepth, as 120 kpts/10s are probably not enough for audio sampling.

Actually I forgot, I had already tried this.  The problem is that if you increase the time base setting past 100ms/div, then for some reason the Record menu item (under the Utility/Record menu) is greyed out as OFF and cannot be changed to ON.  If the time base is 100ms/div or less, then it is enabled and can be changed to ON.

:::sigh:::  Any other ideas?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on May 05, 2017, 05:11:36 am
but you'd only need one segment. I mean single capture then download the full trace and expand it.

a sweep of 1s/div with 24M points memory depth gives you 2 millions points per second of 12 seconds of data. Set Storage to CSV and DataSrc to Memory. That might take over an hour to download off the scope though. I was never patient enough to find out how long it takes.

BTW, you can also expand the trace on the scope using zoom mode and see a smaller time frame, and then set the DataSrc to Screen when you save CSV if you just want what's on the display.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on May 05, 2017, 05:36:38 am
The problem is that if you increase the time base setting past 100ms/div, then for some reason the Record menu item (under the Utility/Record menu) is greyed out as OFF and cannot be changed to ON.  If the time base is 100ms/div or less, then it is enabled and can be changed to ON.

This is why:
- When  time base is in range 0.2s to 50s, the scope enters in "Slow Sweep" mode.
- "Slow Sweep" ~ "Roll Mode"
- In "Roll Mode", the "Waveform Record" is not available.

Please read the whole User Guide, or search inside the PDF:
Quote from: MSO1000Z&DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf
page 11-1
Note: The horizontal time base must be set to Y-T mode during waveform record.

page 3-5
Roll Mode
In this mode, the waveform scrolls from right to left to update the display. The horizontal position and trigger control of the waveform are not available. The range of horizontal scale adjustment is from 200 ms to 50.0 s.
Note: When Roll mode is enabled, the waveform "horizontal position", "Delayed Sweep", "Protocol Decoding", "Pass/Fail Test", "Waveform Record", "To Set the Persistence Time" and "To Trigger the Oscilloscope" are not available.

Slow Sweep
Slow sweep is similar to Roll mode. In YT mode, when the horizontal time base is set to 200 ms/div or slower, the instrument enters "slow sweep"
mode in which the instrument first acquires the data at the left of the trigger point and then waits for a trigger event. After the trigger occurs, the instrument continues to finish the waveform at the right of the trigger point. When slow sweep mode is used to observe low frequency signal, DC "Channel Coupling" mode is recommended."

Anyway, the "Waveform Record" does not record continuously, like a sound card. "Waveform Record" captures data seen on the display, like in a movie. But between 2 consecutive waveforms displayied, there is a small pause in data, while the scope is searching for a new trigger point.

The "Waveform Record" function is meant to replay the screens one by one, like in a movie played frame by frame. "Waveform Record" does not acquire data continuously, like a data acquisition card.

To record 10s continuously, the best method is what metrologist said.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 05, 2017, 01:09:06 pm
but you'd only need one segment. I mean single capture then download the full trace and expand it.

Yes, that's what I also meant when I posted my advice. Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Winkhaus on May 05, 2017, 05:46:06 pm

Ok, it seems to work now.  So I don't actually need the optional Waveform Record feature, I can do what I need using single-shot capture. 

Thanks to all for your patience and explanations.  I will also investigate the additional links provided by David Hess and Gary M.

Cheers

Winkhaus
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: stuartmp on May 07, 2017, 10:45:21 pm
Hi All,

I am just wondering if there is a way to permanently remove the measurement items that display at the bottom of the scope screen.

I can see how to clear or delete single items but the are just greyed out and I have to restart my scope before they completely clear.

This is a real pain.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on May 07, 2017, 10:49:52 pm
Hi All,

I am just wondering if there is a way to permanently remove the measurement items that display at the bottom of the scope screen.

Measure - Clear - All Items  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: stuartmp on May 08, 2017, 12:27:54 am
Quote
Measure - Clear - All Items
Yes I see that and have tried that....

This is not working as I expect as it just sort of disables the item. Then if you choose a new measure item the last item or items that you deleted / cleared. The space allocation on the screen just reappear on the scope screen just this time they are Greyed out with no value in them
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Plasmateur on May 08, 2017, 06:03:45 am
I'm having issues reading the RAW data with labview. Sometimes I receive the wrong X increment value when calling "XINC?". Sometimes my signal is squished to a portion of the total points in "MDEP". 

Here is a representation of the code, after the device is triggered and is in STOP mode.

Code: [Select]

:WAV:SOUR CHAN(i) - i designates which channels are on
:WAV:MODE RAW
:WAV:FORM BYTE
:WAV:STAR 1
:WAV:STOP 250000
:WAV:DATA? (The scope beeps twice. I can't make out the first message displayed)

(then I chop off the first 11 bytes and send it to an array)

:WAV:STAR 250001
:WAV:STOP 300000
:WAV:DATA? (Again the scope beeps twice. I can't make out the first message displayed)


(then I chop off the first 11 bytes and append to the previous array)

(repeat the above process for however many channels are used, with the array index growing for how many channels there are)

:WAVE:XINC?

(gave the wrong integer when 4 channels where selected)

[Array - :WAV:YREF? - :WAV:YOR?]*:WAV:YINC?

(gives the waveform)


I don't have any wait times between operations, however I've run the code with wait times applied and still appear to receive errors sometimes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on May 08, 2017, 06:36:52 am
I'm having issues reading the RAW data with labview. Sometimes I receive the wrong X increment value when calling "XINC?". Sometimes my signal is squished to a portion of the total points in "MDEP". 

Here is a representation of the code, after the device is triggered and is in STOP mode.

Code: [Select]

:WAV:SOUR CHAN(i) - i designates which channels are on
:WAV:MODE RAW
:WAV:FORM BYTE
:WAV:STAR 1
:WAV:STOP 250000
:WAV:DATA? (The scope beeps twice. I can't make out the first message displayed)

(then I chop off the first 11 bytes and send it to an array)

:WAV:STAR 250001
:WAV:STOP 300000
:WAV:DATA? (Again the scope beeps twice. I can't make out the first message displayed)


(then I chop off the first 11 bytes and append to the previous array)

(repeat the above process for however many channels are used, with the array index growing for how many channels there are)

:WAVE:XINC?

(gave the wrong integer when 4 channels where selected)

[Array - :WAV:YREF? - :WAV:YOR?]*:WAV:YINC?

(gives the waveform)


I don't have any wait times between operations, however I've run the code with wait times applied and still appear to receive errors sometimes.

First, send the command ":STOP". Then all the other commands.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on May 08, 2017, 07:23:55 am
Also, you need to check the previous command has finished successfully before sending a new one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on May 08, 2017, 11:51:38 am
Yes I see that and have tried that....

You asked -

I am just wondering if there is a way to permanently remove the measurement items that display at the bottom of the scope screen.

I said -

Quote
Measure - Clear - All Items

This in fact does as you asked - I just tried it. All the measurement items displayed are completely removed from the screen - not greyed out. They are gone. So I have no idea what it is you are asking ...  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on May 08, 2017, 12:32:55 pm
I said -

Quote
Measure - Clear - All Items

This in fact does as you asked - I just tried it. All the measurement items displayed are completely removed from the screen - not greyed out. They are gone. So I have no idea what it is you are asking ...  :-//
But as soon as you activate a new measurement, all the remaining measurement "slots" come back, with their grayed-out names. (As a user interface designer, this reeks of the UI exposing the implementation details, because grayed-out measurements make no sense whatsoever.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on May 08, 2017, 12:39:34 pm
But as soon as you activate a new measurement, all the remaining measurement "slots" come back, with their grayed-out names.

That wasn't what he was asking about though ...  :(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 08, 2017, 01:11:47 pm
As long as the device offers to "recover" the measurement item, it will appear as greyed out as soon as another measurement item is selected.
However, after power cycling, the inactive items disappear.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on May 08, 2017, 01:38:20 pm
But as soon as you activate a new measurement, all the remaining measurement "slots" come back, with their grayed-out names.

That wasn't what he was asking about though ...  :(

How is that not so?
He asked "I am just wondering if there is a way to permanently remove the measurement items that display at the bottom of the scope screen."

Your suggestion allow for the temporary removal of the measurement items at the bottom of the screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on May 08, 2017, 01:47:28 pm

Your suggestion allow for the temporary removal of the measurement items at the bottom of the screen.

No it's not temporary. I can leave the scope on all day and use it for all types of troubleshooting and that display will never re-appear on it's own. It's permanently off unless the user makes desires it to be back on - just like most of the other things the user can select. Just like say channel 1. If I want it to be permanently off I simply turn it off. It's off until I desire it to be back on - exactly the same sort of thing.

So it really depends on your definition of "temporary" and "permanent".  8)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on May 08, 2017, 02:25:02 pm
Well, you are stretching the vocabulary a bit, here.
It's permanent if it will not reappear again in the measurement list unless I decide to put it back on by selecting that particular measurement again.
It's temporary if it will appear again on its own when I try to put another measurement.

But hey, if you do not want to accept to have been wrong, suit yourself. I will not stand in your way any longer.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on May 08, 2017, 02:32:32 pm
way any longer.  :)

Of course I'm not wrong. I answered his question correctly in the context of what he asked. Now if you want to extrapolate on his question, then by all means do so, but then it's an entirely different question.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on May 08, 2017, 03:14:00 pm
The narcissism of small differences at play... I think we can agree that the implementation of the measurement display control is non-intuitive and just a bit odd...

I think I will need to explore saved setups a bit more. I've gone back to the Default power up state to help alleviate some of the gotcha type of things I've encountered.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 08, 2017, 03:24:51 pm
Of course I'm not wrong. [...]
Famous last words...  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on May 08, 2017, 03:31:15 pm
Of course I'm not wrong. [...]
Famous last words...  ;)

No ...  8)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 08, 2017, 04:18:46 pm
He asked "I am just wondering if there is a way to permanently remove the measurement items that display at the bottom of the scope screen."

Your suggestion allow for the temporary removal of the measurement items at the bottom of the screen.

Simple solution: Put some duct tape over the buttons at the side of the screen and don't use them.  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 08, 2017, 08:10:11 pm
He asked "I am just wondering if there is a way to permanently remove the measurement items that display at the bottom of the scope screen."

Your suggestion allow for the temporary removal of the measurement items at the bottom of the screen.

Simple solution: Put some duct tape over the buttons at the side of the screen and don't use them.  :palm:

Heck, no! To permanently remove the displayed measurement items, the duct tape must be placed over the screen of course!  :P
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on May 08, 2017, 11:13:26 pm
I think we can agree that the implementation of the measurement display control is non-intuitive and just a bit odd...

Yes, it's quite screwy and non-intuitive. Plus putting similar, yet different, functionality in two different places doesn't help either. This is a case where copying well-established behaviors from many other software and hardware products would've been preferred to re-inventing the wheel and breaking it in the process. :horse:

Anyway...after having noted step-by-step the behavior of the delete and deselect features back in March, below is a summary of how it appears to work in the firmware version prior to the latest (which I'm still using). Nevertheless, I may still get something about it wrong because it's so convoluted that I just don't use delete and deselect. Anytime I want different measurements, I just brute-force replace all visible measurements by enabling the ones I want in order to push the rest off the screen, or simply power-cycle the scope.

1. The delete feature (Clear menu) grays out measurement items instead of removing them from the screen (so you can restore them in case you change your mind), but then actually deletes them when adding new ones.

2. The deselect feature (Sel.Item menu) hides measurements so that they look like they're deleted, but then restores them when adding new measurements.

See a step-by-step example, from which the above summary is derived, at https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1170210/#msg1170210 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1170210/#msg1170210).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: stuartmp on May 09, 2017, 06:42:32 am
Man oh Man such drama over what I though was a simple question.

Of course I am talking about that fact that the measurement values are not permanently deleted
unless you turn the scope off.

My goodness.

As a newbie.... seeing all that drama makes me think twice before asking another question.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 09, 2017, 08:20:05 am
As you can see by the page count of this thread, the DS1000Z series gets both, love and hate. The ambivalence in some of the commentators leads to fanatism, or trolling to deal with it. As always on the internet, don’t give to much on the first impression ;)
This forum is actually a pretty nice place and there is a lot of wisdom to find.

Welcome Stuart and have a nice day :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 09, 2017, 08:56:21 am
Welcome to EEVBLOG forums!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 09, 2017, 09:31:27 am
Just USE the silly thing, don't obsess about it! Use it to its fullest, try to understand and work around its few remaining bugs, if possible, and know that you can _usually_ even rely on its measurements IF you use it properly and intelligently. (Garbage in, garbage out applies here.)

You folks _do_ realize, I hope, that you can display _all_ the scope's measurements simultaneously, removing and displaying as you like, with just a few button presses, right?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 09, 2017, 09:46:37 am
Just USE the silly thing, don't obsess about it!

Yep. Step back and look at the big picture. Look at what you can do now that you couldn't do before.

If you do that then you'll see the DS1054Z is easily worth $400, despite a few very minor flaws.

(a lot of people here pay more than that for a basic-feature multimeter).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Assafl on May 09, 2017, 09:51:54 am
Man oh Man such drama over what I though was a simple question.

Of course I am talking about that fact that the measurement values are not permanently deleted
unless you turn the scope off.

My goodness.

As a newbie.... seeing all that drama makes me think twice before asking another question.

Yup - just use it. It works and works well (for the right applications).

Drama is a side effect of successful products. So really useful and successful products like fidget spinners and Rigol scopes have drama.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on May 09, 2017, 09:53:08 am
A bit of a gloss on the above scopeshots:

#88: Typical use of three input channels + math. DUT input voltage on CH1, input current on CH2, output voltage into known resistive load on CH3. Math calculates instantaneous input power, automatic measurement of Math Average gives average input power. Scope is set to make Measurements between cursors that encompass full cycles, not the whole screen display. (A bug/feature here: the limiting cursors are not shown, they disappear as soon as the are set. Another bug: The scope does not remember channel BW Limit setting when power-cycled.) Also showing fine tuning of channel vertical V/div settings to increase displayed height of signals for better measurement accuracy. And showing one channel set to "A" for amps, thus having the Math return "W" for watts in its computation.

#87: Same capture as above but with All Measure screen shown. (Bug here: the Hardware Frequency Counter display blocks the view of several column heads. Solution: turn off the HW counter!)

#40: Using the FFT to look at the spectral purity of a slightly distorted input "sine" wave. There is significant power in the second and third harmonics.

#37: Using Phase Angle cursors to manually confirm the scope' automatic measurement of phase angle between CH1 and CH2.

#33: Two thirty-second sweeps of DUT response using log sweep FG from 1 kHz to 24 MHz sine waves. 5 seconds per division horizontally, trigger set 30 seconds leftwards of center screen.

#29: Comparing a live trace from one circuit node referenced to ground,  to a stored reference trace from a different node requiring different reference connection.

"I got a million of 'em, har har har" --- Jimmy Durante
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on May 09, 2017, 05:10:58 pm
Man oh Man such drama over what I though was a simple question.

Of course I am talking about that fact that the measurement values are not permanently deleted
unless you turn the scope off.

Some things are more complex than they first appear on the surface. Not being able to permanently delete stuff, as you now see, has more going on.

Quote
As a newbie.... seeing all that drama makes me think twice before asking another question.

Just as there's no perfect oscilloscope, there's no perfect forum. Don't let that stop you from asking questions. Simply ignore the drama and benefit from the answers. There's much of value here, with a little drama to boot, just like real life.

Welcome to forum, Stuart.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Electro Fan on May 09, 2017, 07:36:35 pm
Man oh Man such drama over what I though was a simple question.

Of course I am talking about that fact that the measurement values are not permanently deleted
unless you turn the scope off.

Some things are more complex than they first appear on the surface. Not being able to permanently delete stuff, as you now see, has more going on.

Quote
As a newbie.... seeing all that drama makes me think twice before asking another question.

Just as there's no perfect oscilloscope, there's no perfect forum. Don't let that stop you from asking questions. Simply ignore the drama and benefit from the answers. There's much of value here, with a little drama to boot, just like real life.

Welcome to forum, Stuart.

+1; Welcome to the forum and give it plenty more tries. This is a great forum (actually several forums nicely organized by topics) with probably as low a drama factor as you will find on the Internet; especially for something filled with fairly complex details that are sometimes lost or misinterpreted (in terms of meaning or intent) in often quickly written and quickly read posts, from people with different skill levels, and often with different native language backgrounds.  Occasionally we get some drama but it usually subsides pretty easily and overall this really is a very friend place; I think it mirrors Dave's tone which can be technically very, very smart and experienced, and yet he doesn't take himself too seriously - nor do most of the folks here take themselves too seriously.  You will find that there are many smart and experienced people here who share their knowledge in very kind manners; there's lots of passion for EE and related matters here from people all along the path from newbie to expert and there's some occasional humor - sometimes dry and sometimes not so dry but it's consistently a friendly and super helpful place.  Definitely stick around, you will be very glad you did.  No better place to learn (or help teach) EE on an Internet forum.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on May 09, 2017, 08:21:27 pm
Well put, Electro Fan. One thing I'd add to the point about native languages: Since this is an international forum, sometimes a post may appear harsh or offensive, but is simply due to a translation/cultural mismatch with no harm nor drama intended.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: emocabras on May 14, 2017, 08:53:27 pm
Excuse me to be new and start studying electronics now.
Have buy a rigol ds1054z, be the first oscilloscope
If I measure voltage with 1x probe after bridge graetz get frequency 100hz and this is correct.
If I measure voltage with probe 10x after bridge graetz get 50hz and this is incorrect.
You can explain me???

thank you




(http://i.imgur.com/IcLcfDo.png?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/uILhrx2.png?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/35NbEnk.png?1)




Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ted572 on May 14, 2017, 09:15:43 pm
Re. Post #3816   Please change the O'Scope from DC to AC Coupling an repeat your measurements. 
Edit:  Your also changing the switch on the Probe from x1 to x10, right?  That probably is OK, it looks like it, but that is also necessary of course.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: IAmBack on May 14, 2017, 09:27:40 pm
Excuse me to be new and start studying electronics now.
Have buy a rigol ds1054z, be the first oscilloscope
If I measure voltage with 1x probe after bridge graetz get frequency 100hz and this is correct.
If I measure voltage with probe 10x after bridge graetz get 50hz and this is incorrect.
You can explain me???

thank you



It may have something to do with the "earth" (which is connected to the "ground" od the probe via grounding terminal of the mains cable) or its absence and a capacitance coupling between primary and secondary windings of the transformer under test.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: emocabras on May 14, 2017, 10:32:15 pm
yes I change switch probe. Have tested in ac do not change anything. I do not understand why 1x 10x change waveform.
Certainly how to see waveform change, change rms value
I have tried with other transformers always the same result.
To be my oscilloscope having problems, you can try your oscilloscope. I repeat to be beginner. Do not know if this be normal behave oscilloscope with 10x probe.
Thank you, excuse my bad english writing |O.



(http://i.imgur.com/OAMWoWk.png?1)

(http://i.imgur.com/kFHOuwA.png?1)








Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: emocabras on May 14, 2017, 11:21:39 pm
This and what I see,  If  use 2 probes, with a math function a + b number an inverted channel.

Remember I'm beginner ask for help understanding see different waveform 10x 1x probe |O |O


(http://i.imgur.com/bhlhkdI.png?1)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hexreader on May 14, 2017, 11:27:31 pm
My guess is that you have no load for your circuit.

Put a 10 kilo-ohm resistor at the output of your bridge rectifier and see if things improve.

With no other load, your oscilloscope becomes a high impedance load, which causes the load to change as your measurement setup changes.

... but of course, since you have not posted the circuit diagram for your setup, or information on how you connected scope probes, we can only guess...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ted572 on May 14, 2017, 11:31:53 pm
Re. Post #3819   Do you have the Scope Probe's ground lead connected to exactly the same Ground reference, and the Probes Tip connected to exactly the same point for each measurement condition (X1 vs X10)?  Exactly, meaning you change the Probe from x1 to x10, and the the Scope setting from X1 to X10, without moving the Probe connections at all.

If this is the case, then please show us a schematic of the AC source, transformer (with winging details, etc), and the Bridge (I assume that this is a bridge rectifier) with details (diodes,  etc), and what is connected to the Bridge.  Please this has to a schematic with details, NOT a block diagram.

This has to be simple, so without details the problem won't necessarily be obvious to us.  Oh - did I say Obvious (NFW).   I can't really imagine this being a defect in your scope, although of course it could be.

Edit - Re. Post #3823: If you had the Bridge Rectifier DC negative (-) Output connected to chassis/earth Ground (same as O'Scope AC cord's Ground) you probably wouldn't have even had this issue.  Anyway, you have a very good answer to the problem from 'hexreader' in the following reply's.  Please take his advice and watch these videos, you will gain a lot of good insight for accurate measurements and safety.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: emocabras on May 15, 2017, 12:01:44 am
All connected equally 1x to 10x tests. I tried other transformers and straightening bridges. Always present 1x 10x waveform difference.

Simple scheme. Only transformer and bridge.(http://i.imgur.com/qq7L5co.png?1)

1x wave form is incorrect because we know bridge to straighten 50h to 100hz
10x waveform no correct.
I tried to remove earth from oscilloscope and problem not exist with ground unconnected oscilloscope. Now reading 1x and 10x are the same as correct.
Can explain why the earth oscilloscope creates this problem.
No ground and dangerous oscilloscope
I want to stay connected ground oscilloscope.

See photos now 10x no problems

thanks, Excuse my English.

(http://i.imgur.com/8Hwc6nZ.png?1)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hexreader on May 15, 2017, 12:25:04 am
The transformer has a small amount of capacitance, which allows a small amount of current to flow from primary to secondary, which adds to your scope signal.

This is why a load on the bridge output is import, as this makes the capacitive coupling effect less significant.

Add a small load to the output of the bridge and re-connect ground to your scope.

Quote
I want to stay connected ground oscilloscope.
That is a fantastically good idea, but be sure to watch Dave's video on scope grounding before progressing.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaELqAo4kkQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaELqAo4kkQ)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: emocabras on May 15, 2017, 12:31:11 am
But this is normal? I tried transformers problem to do with everyone. Why with 1x probe do not make a problem?
Because without land connection oscilloscope problem do not do 10x.
Excuse me to be beginner to be able to explain.
Where you can read this documentation to learn
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hexreader on May 15, 2017, 12:40:01 am
X1 probe has 1 megOhm impedance, whereas X10 probe has 10 megOhm impedance .

Both provide very small loading, but it seems that 1 megOhm is just sufficient.

A 10K load will be much better still, and will help the diodes to do their job properly.

Watch all of Dave's scope videos to learn more in a nice easy way.

Probe video is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiAmER1OJh4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiAmER1OJh4)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: emocabras on May 15, 2017, 12:58:25 am
Perfect now I have understood.

thank you very much
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 15, 2017, 02:38:43 am
Remember I'm beginner ask for help understanding 10x 1x probe |O |O

It's very simple: Don't use 1x.

No it's not a joke.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on May 15, 2017, 02:43:00 am
Remember I'm beginner ask for help understanding 10x 1x probe |O |O

It's very simple: Don't use 1x.

No it's not a joke.

Pretty much. The only reason to ever use a 1x setting on a 10x/1x probe is when you want to characterize some noise (e.g. caused by a power supply or something), and you are sure that it's there, but you can't really see it well with a 10x setting.

Other than that, I'd rather everyone just ship fixed 10x probes with all devices. Fixing the probe to 10x would improve their performance slightly, but more importantly it would stop people from making mistakes and frying the inputs of their oscilloscopes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: emocabras on May 15, 2017, 06:46:45 am
I confirm I never use 1x. Have tried only transformer, low volt to understand wave form problem. Have watched dave movies to understand why 10x returned incorrect signal with no minimum load.
Thanks to everyone, this is a great resource forum. :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on May 15, 2017, 03:37:56 pm
Other than that, I'd rather everyone just ship fixed 10x probes with all devices. Fixing the probe to 10x would improve their performance slightly, but more importantly it would stop people from making mistakes and frying the inputs of their oscilloscopes.

Frying the inputs of their oscilloscopes?  What?

10x probes help a little but consider what happens when AC input coupling is used.  The oscilloscope's AC coupling capacitors charges to the *full* average DC value at the tip of the 10x probe without attenuation.  In most applications including power line applications this is no problem if you have a good oscilloscope. (1)

Most 100x probes make this *worse*.  They are used in high voltage applications which easily exceed the breakdown rating of the oscilloscope's AC coupling capacitor.  If you want a safe 100x probe, look for one with an input resistance *lower* than 100 megohms which indicates that it has a shunt resistor to attenuate DC voltages.

(1) The peak input voltage specification for the Rigol DS1000Z is exactly the same with 1x and 10x probes although with a different CAT rating.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sandor626 on May 20, 2017, 05:11:16 pm
Hi,
I've updated the firmware. It's okay.
1) I downloaded the firmware from the rigol site.
2) I did the oscilloscope memory sanitization procedure.  I reboot.
3) I re-calibrated. I Reboot.
4) I installed the firmware. I Reboot.
5) I checked the extended version installed (menu, menu, force, menu) and everything was ok !
6) At that moment, two new options appeared on the calibration screen. I did not re-calibrate, I Rebbot
7) After re-boot, the two new options had disappeared . I re-calibrated , successfull after 20min.

This firmware  version is very very good . The trigger is better on small signals. The measures is better ,
stable Is better  and equal between the channels .

Thanks Rigol !!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on May 22, 2017, 09:14:41 pm
I finally updated my scope. Didn't sanitize, just installed the update, let it warm up, then recalibrated. All is well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daque on May 24, 2017, 04:57:55 pm
Remote control software? Dave said in his review the Rigol lab software sucked but better had been written by the community.  Anyone have a link or  name for it?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 24, 2017, 05:22:43 pm
Hello Daque,

do you mean the name of software provided by Rigol?
Check out the DS1000Z download section (https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/1000z/) at the bottom of the page.

There is also a LAN screen capture (https://github.com/RoGeorge/DS1054Z_screen_capture), DSRemote (https://github.com/Teuniz/DSRemote) on Github, Rigol Bildschirmkopie (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/), Hackaday article on Linux controlling Rigol DS (http://hackaday.com/2015/06/06/controlling-a-rigol-with-linux/) and some more info on the Rigol site (http://int.rigol.com/Support/HowControl/?lc=EN).

Regards,
Frederik
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daque on May 24, 2017, 08:42:27 pm
Thank you, I meant the non Rigol (and superior) software.


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Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on May 24, 2017, 10:39:37 pm
Remote control software? Dave said in his review the Rigol lab software sucked but better had been written by the community.  Anyone have a link or  name for it?

That review is many years old now. Many of the other software options didn't exist, and the Rigol software has surely evolved somewhat.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 25, 2017, 11:06:51 am
There is also another Hackaday article on FFT analysis via VISA in Python (http://hackaday.com/2015/09/22/a-better-spectrum-analyzer-for-your-rigol-scope/). The article is two years old, however it should have enough pointers for setting everything up and going from there in case you want to dive into pyDSA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twRke3suKpE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twRke3suKpE)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Chumanista on May 29, 2017, 05:20:33 pm
Quick question: is there a way to limit the sample rate for CSV export? It takes incredibly long as-is.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TD-Linux on May 31, 2017, 03:33:45 am
Speaking of remote control, I've been having great luck with controlling the scope over ethernet via the VXI-11 interface, using the python3-vxi11 module. The documentation and feature coverage of the scope is surprisingly complete.

One oddity is when dumping raw BYTE waveforms, the samples are prepended with 11 bytes of '#900000xxxx' garbage and 1 byte of '\n'. I'm not sure if this is the scope's fault or the Python library I'm using, but easy to fix.

The scope also has a telnet-style SCPI interface on port 5555, for quick testing of the commands (vxi-11 exposes SCPI commands over Sun RPC instead).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NorthGuy on May 31, 2017, 03:53:56 am
One oddity is when dumping raw BYTE waveforms, the samples are prepended with 11 bytes of '#900000xxxx' garbage and 1 byte of '\n'. I'm not sure if this is the scope's fault or the Python library I'm using, but easy to fix.

"9" is the number of the digits that follow - that is  "00000xxxx" is 9 digits. "00000xxxx" is the number of bytes returned by the command.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: zbyr on May 31, 2017, 08:01:43 pm
Quote
Quick question: is there a way to limit the sample rate for CSV export? It takes incredibly long as-is.
Limit memory size, or use PC software like this one (i recommend it, it dump whole memory in few seconds.) https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/rigol-feat-higher-bitfloat-accuracy-general-purpose-deep-mem-fft-sw/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/rigol-feat-higher-bitfloat-accuracy-general-purpose-deep-mem-fft-sw/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: AudioNoob on June 01, 2017, 08:13:43 am
Considering the various DSOs for around $300 (Rigol 1054 / Siglent SDS1072 / Hantek dso4072-5102), is Rigol a good choice for audio applications? Would you call it the best choice?
Is the FFT function usable for assessing THD of less than, say, 0.5%? I know it's no spectrum analyzer, but still.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on June 01, 2017, 08:19:32 am
Considering the various DSOs for around $300 (Rigol 1054 / Siglent SDS1072 / Hantek dso4072-5102), is Rigol a good choice for audio applications? Would you call it the best choice?
Is the FFT function usable for assessing THD of less than, say, 0.5%? I know it's no spectrum analyzer, but still.
Welcome to the forum.

Consider adding SDS1202X-E to your list. Bit dearer than a 1072 @ $379 but 200 MHz and excellent FFT.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: AudioNoob on June 01, 2017, 08:24:20 am
Welcome to the forum.

Consider adding SDS1202X-E to your list. Bit dearer than a 1072 @ $379 but 200 MHz and excellent FFT.
Thank you!
I certainly don't need high bandwidth (or do I just not realize that I need it?), but excellent FFT is definitely a selling point. So, will FFT actually be useful for seeing small (inaudible) distortions of audio signals?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on June 01, 2017, 08:31:42 am
Welcome to the forum.

Consider adding SDS1202X-E to your list. Bit dearer than a 1072 @ $379 but 200 MHz and excellent FFT.
Thank you!
I certainly don't need high bandwidth (or do I just not realize that I need it?), but excellent FFT is definitely a selling point. So, will FFT actually be useful for seeing small (inaudible) distortions of audio signals?
It will be better than the others on your list due to its 1 Mpts FFT.
Some screenshots:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/msg1192654/#msg1192654 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/msg1192654/#msg1192654)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 01, 2017, 08:52:47 am
Welcome to the forum.

Consider adding SDS1202X-E to your list. Bit dearer than a 1072 @ $379 but 200 MHz and excellent FFT.
Thank you!
I certainly don't need high bandwidth (or do I just not realize that I need it?), but excellent FFT is definitely a selling point. So, will FFT actually be useful for seeing small (inaudible) distortions of audio signals?

The Siglent's FFT will give better spectral resolution -- but it is still a scope with an 8-bit ADC only. In my view, none of the entry-level scopes are suitable for audio work which requires the analysis of signal to noise, harmonic distortion etc. at high dynamic range.

A sound card with suitable PC software is the better choice in my opinion. It will give you 24 bit dynamic range, of course at much lower sampling rates (96 or 192 kHz), but more than adequate for audio work. All affordable, consumer-grade sound cards are AC coupled (i.e. they do not "see" the DC component of your signal), but that should not be a limitation in most audio projects.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gary.M on June 01, 2017, 09:17:27 am
Google QuantAsylum QA401. It may be what you want.

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Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 01, 2017, 09:22:34 am
Considering the various DSOs for around $300 (Rigol 1054 / Siglent SDS1072 / Hantek dso4072-5102), is Rigol a good choice for audio applications? Would you call it the best choice?
Is the FFT function usable for assessing THD of less than, say, 0.5%? I know it's no spectrum analyzer, but still.

I'm gonna say "no".

If Audio/FFT is your main application the I don't think any entry level 'scope will do. They all use 8-bit ADCs and that simply isn't enough, no matter how long the buffer is.

Almost any 96kHz PC sound card will be better for audio analysis. You can also look at the Analog Discovery which is a little programmable gadget with a decent ADC (14 bits) and it can also generate waveforms for frequency sweeps and bode plots (not that a sound card can't do that, but you're asking in EEVBLOG so we look at more 'engineer' solutions to problems).

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/analog-disovery-as-audio-analyzer/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/analog-disovery-as-audio-analyzer/)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: AudioNoob on June 01, 2017, 09:30:14 am
none of the entry-level scopes are suitable for audio work which requires the analysis of signal to noise, harmonic distortion etc. at high dynamic range.
Thank you, that's exactly what I needed to know. Then I will try to get Rightmark Audio Analyzer software working (I even happen to have the great - and highly regarded - EMU 0404 USB interface which is quite suitable as a reference DAC/ADC).
FFT aside, is there a significant difference between the DSOs in question as far as audio applications go?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on June 01, 2017, 09:37:06 am
none is good.

-8 bit digitizer
- too much noise (a side effect of having a very high bandwidth

an audio interface, or a dc coupled audio interface, and a software suite is probably the best choice before ending up spending multi thousand dollars on audio analyzers
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: AudioNoob on June 01, 2017, 09:52:35 am
none is good.

-8 bit digitizer
- too much noise (a side effect of having a very high bandwidth

an audio interface, or a dc coupled audio interface, and a software suite is probably the best choice before ending up spending multi thousand dollars on audio analyzers
Gotcha. Looks like you just saved me upwards of $300. I wanted to have a standalone device with its own screen and controls rather than being tethered to a laptop, but if the several hundred dollar scopes aren't even good then it's just waste of money.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 01, 2017, 09:56:22 am
FFT aside, is there a significant difference between the DSOs in question as far as audio applications go?

A common thing for amplifier work is to use two channels in "differential" mode, ie. you show the difference between two wires, not the difference between the wire and oscilloscope ground.

Four channels on your oscilloscope means you can look at stereo differential signals without constantly swapping the probes around.

Apart from that... no not really. They all show wiggly lines on screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 01, 2017, 10:01:51 am
FFT aside, is there a significant difference between the DSOs in question as far as audio applications go?

I don't think so. All are fundamentally limited by 8-bit ADCs. The Siglent may have slightly less input noise than the Rigol, but even a perfect, noise-less 8 bit input would not cut it for audio work.

(All these scopes have an averaging or "high-resolution" mode which improves the signal/noise a bit, but does not get you to where you need to be. Some of them might also offer other post-processing filters, which may have benefits here and there; but again they do not get you around the 8 bit limitation.)

Keysight has recently launched a new scope model with a built-in Bode plot functionality, but that's outside of your price range. And any PC (sound-card based) audio lab software should offer that as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on June 01, 2017, 10:10:48 am
none is good.

-8 bit digitizer
- too much noise (a side effect of having a very high bandwidth

an audio interface, or a dc coupled audio interface, and a software suite is probably the best choice before ending up spending multi thousand dollars on audio analyzers
Gotcha. Looks like you just saved me upwards of $300. I wanted to have a standalone device with its own screen and controls rather than being tethered to a laptop, but if the several hundred dollar scopes aren't even good then it's just waste of money.

an used ipad perhaps
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 01, 2017, 10:26:50 am
Gotcha. Looks like you just saved me upwards of $300. I wanted to have a standalone device with its own screen and controls rather than being tethered to a laptop, but if the several hundred dollar scopes aren't even good then it's just waste of money.
an used ipad perhaps

Assuming there's an "app" for that.  :popcorn:

(maybe it's an excuse to buy a Windows-based tablet, which is a 10000x better choice than iPad if you want to get some work done)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: AudioNoob on June 01, 2017, 10:37:37 am
(maybe it's an excuse to buy a Windows-based tablet, which is a 10000x better choice than iPad if you want to get some work done)
That's a great idea! I do have an x86 (Intel Atom) Windows 10 tablet at work, and I already tried installing the drivers for my USB audio interface there and connecting the thing - everything works. I was considering buying such a tablet as a fan-less alternative to a laptop for listening to music in headphones (fan noise sucks even when it's really quiet), and now you're pointing out that the same device can be used for signal analysis using the same audio interface. A thing to consider indeed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on June 01, 2017, 10:46:17 am
have to agree, i had a surface 3 for some time and it was a really neat tool
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Loboscope on June 01, 2017, 11:31:06 am
A scope (and a DMM of course) will be useful for troubleshooting and repairing any gear in general (amplifers, PSU, etc.), but not for measuring THD and noise, especially at low levels.
To do this (and more), I use "hpw-works" [http://www.hpw-works.com/ (http://www.hpw-works.com/)], together with a good interface (RME or comparable) - a really professional solution.
Title: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daque on June 01, 2017, 02:14:56 pm
Can you dump a  I2C capture and use the data fix in another program to decode the data? If so what program would you use? I understand the scope's decoding could be better. The  data I want to decode at is very small and sent over up to about 10 seconds.  Basically a few bytes to start playback or record  at an address of a ChipCoder chip  then stop it at the end of message. Would one of those $6 eBay logic analyzes work better for this? There is a 3rd line that the chip sends out a timing sync pulse every 32 milliseconds that I want to take a look at eventually too.


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Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on June 01, 2017, 02:39:31 pm
none is good.

-8 bit digitizer
- too much noise (a side effect of having a very high bandwidth

an audio interface, or a dc coupled audio interface, and a software suite is probably the best choice before ending up spending multi thousand dollars on audio analyzers

For audio, I would think the Digilent Analog Discovery with 14 bit ADC would be ideal.  It knows all about Bode' plots and FFTs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rstofer on June 01, 2017, 02:44:02 pm
have to agree, i had a surface 3 for some time and it was a really neat tool

I have a high end Surface Pros and Surface Book.  There is no way in the world I would ever use the audio system to troubleshoot external stuff!  These things cost a whole lot of money - far more than a decent scope.

I do use the Digilent Analog Discovery which is USB based but, even then, I plug it into a powered hub.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 01, 2017, 03:06:04 pm
I want to decode I2C...  Would one of those $6 eBay logic analyzes work better for this?

Probably.

A 'scope is essential for troubleshooting I2C problems and making sure the bus is OK (good pullups, etc.) but one of those $6 eBay analyzers will win for collecting/decoding long streams of data from working devices.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daque on June 01, 2017, 03:36:20 pm
Thanks.  I have one coming but it could still be a month out.


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Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mechatrommer on June 01, 2017, 07:20:31 pm
Welcome to the forum.
Consider adding SDS1202X-E to your list. Bit dearer than a 1072 @ $379 but 200 MHz and excellent FFT.
I certainly don't need high bandwidth (or do I just not realize that I need it?), but excellent FFT is definitely a selling point. So, will FFT actually be useful for seeing small (inaudible) distortions of audio signals?
It will be better than the others on your list due to its 1 Mpts FFT.
Some screenshots:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/msg1192654/#msg1192654 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/msg1192654/#msg1192654)
can we possibly download the whole 14Mpts data and plot FFT in PC like DS1054Z 24Mpts FFT like below?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=320423;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on June 01, 2017, 08:48:14 pm
can we possibly download the whole 14Mpts data and plot FFT in PC like DS1054Z 24Mpts FFT like below?
Outside my field but I'll see what I can do. Bookmarked.

Edit.
Yes but we're waiting for the programming manual to be finalised.
Can you provide a link to VISADSO please.

Are you pulling the data via LAN or USB ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 02, 2017, 06:55:06 am
can we possibly download the whole 14Mpts data and plot FFT in PC like DS1054Z 24Mpts FFT like below?

Probably, but... it's still an 8-bit ADC and that's the real limiting factor. No amount of buffer will remove the noise introduced in the signal by the ADC.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: AudioNoob on June 02, 2017, 07:07:56 am
Probably, but... it's still an 8-bit ADC and that's the real limiting factor. No amount of buffer will remove the noise introduced in the signal by the ADC.
8 bit means means ~48 dB SNR, is that why it's limiting? Subsequently, a perfect sine wave quantized in 8 bits would exhibit a certain (rather high) THD percentage due to that -48 dB random noise added to it. Am I getting it right?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 02, 2017, 07:31:46 am
8 bit means means ~48 dB SNR, is that why it's limiting? Subsequently, a perfect sine wave quantized in 8 bits would exhibit a certain (rather high) THD percentage due to that -48 dB random noise added to it. Am I getting it right?

You'll see all the big frequency peaks but the noise will mask the small ones.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on June 02, 2017, 07:56:38 am
8 bit means means ~48 dB SNR, is that why it's limiting? Subsequently, a perfect sine wave quantized in 8 bits would exhibit a certain (rather high) THD percentage due to that -48 dB random noise added to it. Am I getting it right?

You'll see all the big frequency peaks but the noise will mask the small ones.

You can do what some THD analyzers and other equipment do; which is to place a notch filter on the fundamental frequency. You can continue down this path, if you wish, placing it on subsequent harmonics until you run into the genuine noise floor of the instrument.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on June 03, 2017, 12:57:15 pm
Can you provide a link to VISADSO please.
It is this software: http://www.soasystem.com/download/visadso/ (http://www.soasystem.com/download/visadso/)

Only working with some Rigol models at the moment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lacommtech on June 05, 2017, 06:02:20 pm
Hope that this isn't off-topic.

Does anyone who's purchased one lately know whether the upgrade hacks still work?  I'm getting closer to buying one, figuring that eventually they will make it harder to permanently enable what they offer as trial features and that my old Tektronics may decide to retire soon.

Thanks in advance for any info!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 05, 2017, 06:13:56 pm
Hope that this isn't off-topic.

Does anyone who's purchased one lately know whether the upgrade hacks still work?  I'm getting closer to buying one, figuring that eventually they will make it harder to permanently enable what they offer as trial features and that my old Tektronics may decide to retire soon.

Thanks in advance for any info!

Not off-topic, but rather repetitive.  ::)
Yes, the upgrade hacks still work. Don't buy an MSO or a "plus" model, though; these are (and always have been) much more difficult to hack.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pmayhew on June 11, 2017, 08:37:14 am
Hi, I have the Rigol SD1054z, and used the http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/) page for the modification.

Unfortunately I wasn't aware of this forum until now, and have installed all options DSFR and was not aware there was a bug at 500uV (I've not seen this bug myself)

I understand that all options can be remove, but I have been unable to find and download the UltraSigma software. Do any anyone here have a working download link, or can provide me with this program?

Is the bug only when reducing the amplitude to 500uv?

Peter
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 11, 2017, 11:10:32 am
I understand that all options can be remove, but I have been unable to find and download the UltraSigma software. Do any anyone here have a working download link, or can provide me with this program?

You don't need any special software. Just connect it to your PC with an Ethernet cable and open a command line.

Type this:

telnet XX.XX.XX.XX:5555            (where XX is the IP address of the 'scope).

If you don't see any messages saying 'unable to connect' then type:

:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

This removes all the options so you can start again.


While you're there you can install the options via command line as well. Use this to enter a key:

:SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Where XXXX is a key generated by Riglol.

Is the bug only when reducing the amplitude to 500uv?

Yes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: kjh83 on June 12, 2017, 02:41:58 am
Hi, I have the Rigol SD1054z, and used the http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/) page for the modification.

Unfortunately I wasn't aware of this forum until now, and have installed all options DSFR and was not aware there was a bug at 500uV (I've not seen this bug myself)

I understand that all options can be remove, but I have been unable to find and download the UltraSigma software. Do any anyone here have a working download link, or can provide me with this program?

Is the bug only when reducing the amplitude to 500uv?

Peter
I haven't tried it but code DSER should install everything but the 500uV/div feature. It's not listed on the webpage you used but it should work once you've reset all the options. I wouldn't mess with the 500uV feature if your scope doesn't have the hardware for it.

YMMV.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebclr on June 12, 2017, 04:42:37 am
I may don't know how to recognize the bug, but my work just fine on 500uV

Maybe that is a more sophisticated bug other than just see the waveform on 500uV
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on June 12, 2017, 07:51:55 am
I may don't know how to recognize the bug, but my work just fine on 500uV

Maybe that is a more sophisticated bug other than just see the waveform on 500uV

If I recall correctly, one of the issues is a big jump in the offset which cannot be removed by self-calibration. But I can't find the thread where this was discussed at the moment.

In any case, there is little benefit to be had from a 500µV/div scale on the DS1054Z. The 1mV/div scale is already a digital zoom (i.e. visual magnification only, without gaining ADC resolution). And the analog input noise will probably prevent you from seeing much additional detail at 500µV as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebclr on June 12, 2017, 10:38:36 am
I'm lucky 1/2 division only,
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Hydron on June 12, 2017, 12:33:04 pm
The DS1000Z series only has 2 analogue ranges, with an attenuator switched in for 500mV/div up to the max of 10V/div.

All other gain control is done digitally inside the HMCAD1511 ADC (it has internal precision >8 bits, and thus can do digital gain control over a fairly wide range), which Rigol has taken advantage of in order to make the analogue front end very inexpensive. However this digital gain has a max of 50x, with missing codes at gains higher than 32x (see HMCAD1511 datasheet).

As Rigol is using the same analogue gain for all ranges 200mV/div and under, best case is that they'll be hitting >32x digital gain (and therefore the ADC output will have missing codes) at 5mV/div, and will be beyond 50x at 2mV/div and 1mV/div, so will need software gain for these two settings. There will also be some decrease in ENOB as digital gain is increased - the datasheet specs 7.9 bits at 1x going down to 7.6 bits at 10x gain (which actually seems like a pretty good performance to me!)

tl;dr: it's already run out of steam at <5mV/div, don't worry about trying to do any better! You won't get amazing performance out of a DS1000Z scope, but you might get amazing value if your use doesn't push it's limits.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on June 12, 2017, 01:06:44 pm
Nothing massively bad happens on that range but it doesn't work very well. It's best not to be able to select it accidentally.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on June 12, 2017, 01:16:38 pm
The DS1000Z series only has 2 analogue ranges, with an attenuator switched in for 500mV/div up to the max of 10V/div.

It only has one attenuator section before the high impedance buffer.

Quote
All other gain control is done digitally inside the HMCAD1511 ADC (it has internal precision >8 bits, and thus can do digital gain control over a fairly wide range), which Rigol has taken advantage of in order to make the analogue front end very inexpensive. However this digital gain has a max of 50x, with missing codes at gains higher than 32x (see HMCAD1511 datasheet).

Is that right?  I thought Rigol was using one of National's LMH series of digitally controlled, variable gain amplifiers between the high impedance buffer, transistor preamplifier, and the ADC.  The DS2000A series uses the LMH6518 and as I recall, photographs of the DS1000Z series show an integrated circuit in this location but the markings are removed so it is not clear exactly which LMH part is used.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Hydron on June 12, 2017, 01:28:35 pm
Dave reverse engineered the front end, it's almost all discrete, with the only IC in the path being an op-amp for the DC component. There is a relay switching in an attenuator before the buffer, no other gain control.

http://www.eevblog.com/files/Rigol-DS1054Z-Schematic-FrontEnd.pdf (http://www.eevblog.com/files/Rigol-DS1054Z-Schematic-FrontEnd.pdf)
http://www.eevblog.com/files/Rigol-DS1054Z-Schematic-DiffAmp.pdf (http://www.eevblog.com/files/Rigol-DS1054Z-Schematic-DiffAmp.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on June 12, 2017, 07:20:36 pm
I had to watch Dave's video again and I guess you are right.  His schematic ends where the integrated programmable gain amplifier would be but in the video you can see that there is nothing between that output and the ADC so Rigol must be relying on the ADC for all of the gain switching except for the high impedance attenuator.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on June 23, 2017, 04:45:13 pm
Had to use the scope outside in the sun. It was not happening, not even trying to shade it. The display cannot be discerned at all.  :scared:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on June 23, 2017, 09:49:15 pm
That’s the thing with vampires and other super human creatures: They got awesome super powers, but sunlight turns the to dust / water turns them to stone / silver or kryptonite sucks up strength / ...

It is not the brightest display out there, but at least it has proper antireflective glass on top of the LCD :)

Since it is not battery powered I don’t see it as a design flaw. Maybe consider this for outdoor use:

(https://forum44.djicdn.com/data/attachment/forum/201503/04/012025bb4d7ol3b39b3whb.jpg)

;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sandor626 on July 03, 2017, 12:13:30 pm
rigol DS1054Z bandwidth : I measured it a risetime of 2,95 ns
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on July 03, 2017, 12:38:59 pm
rigol DS1054Z bandwidth

You know that thing can save a screen shot to the USB port don't you?  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 03, 2017, 02:39:08 pm
rigol DS1054Z bandwidth : I measured it a risetime of 2,95 ns

Unlocked to 100MHz, I presume.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on July 04, 2017, 05:03:43 am
rigol DS1054Z bandwidth : I measured it a risetime of 2,95 ns

Unlocked to 100MHz, I presume.
FWIW, unlocking adds the features that are only available as 30 day trial runs IIRC (one could argue about both the memory increase as well as the scope's BW however).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 04, 2017, 05:56:28 am
FWIW, unlocking adds the features that are only available as 30 day trial runs IIRC (one could argue about both the memory increase as well as the scope's BW however).

What's to argue? Unlocking codes (purchased or generated by Riglol) can be used to permanently enable all options originally incuded as time-limited trials. These include decoders, advanced triggering, and also the increased memory capacity.

The bandwidth upgrade is not available from Rigol as an official option -- neither in the trial licenses nor for purchase -- but can be enabled via a Riglol-generated key.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on July 05, 2017, 10:24:08 am
Unlocking codes (purchased or generated by Riglol) can be used to permanently enable all options originally incuded as time-limited trials.
These include decoders, advanced triggering, and also the increased memory capacity.
Quite true; I wasn't paying sufficient attention to the details of my post.  :palm: My deepest apologies.  :-[

Perhaps I need to skip the single malt scotch before making any posts.  :o  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sandor626 on July 05, 2017, 02:04:24 pm
another signal hooked , rise time 2.550 ns , BW > 130 MHZ
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sandor626 on July 05, 2017, 02:10:02 pm
rigol DS1054Z bandwidth : I measured it a risetime of 2,95 ns

Unlocked to 100MHz, I presume.

of course ,  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on July 05, 2017, 03:33:01 pm
another signal hooked , rise time 2.550 ns , BW > 130 MHZ

You hopefully need a better test signal; 50% overshoot is too much for that test and if that is the actual transient response of your hacked DS1054Z oscilloscope, then it is broken.  Greater bandwidth is available with a "peaked" transient response and some cheap probes and oscilloscopes actually do this.

I know of one example where it was done deliberately.  Tektronix made two versions of the 7704A oscilloscope; the normal one had a 200MHz bandwidth with the expected normal Gaussian response but it could be ordered with an option to extend the bandwidth to 250MHz sacrificing clean transient response.

A x10 probe which has high frequency transient response adjustments can be tweaked to do this deliberately.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 05, 2017, 04:54:06 pm
If i saw that signal i would be worried. what is wrong?

the way i probed? something in my setup? probe? oscilloscope channel?

or (cold sweat on the back) something in the circuit?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on July 05, 2017, 06:42:42 pm
I've got my DS10x4Z already for a few years but only now got to check the rise time with a half-way decent square source -- my recently constructed Rb 10MHz source with multiple outputs, among them three pretty fast 74LVC drivers with a symmetrizised (sp?) square. These outputs directly connected to the DS...Z's input via RG58 and a proper terminator result in rise/fall times round about 1.6....1.7ns, single channel enabled. See attached screenshots/files for details. I didn't expect the "lil'Rigol" to be so fast. Impressive!

Cheers,
Tom
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 05, 2017, 07:14:54 pm
If i saw that signal i would be worried. what is wrong?

It's probably a problem with probing.


(nice alliteration...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sandor626 on July 05, 2017, 10:21:48 pm
I've got my DS10x4Z already for a few years but only now got to check the rise time with a half-way decent square source -- my recently constructed Rb 10MHz source with multiple outputs, among them three pretty fast 74LVC drivers with a symmetrizised (sp?) square. These outputs directly connected to the DS...Z's input via RG58 and a proper terminator result in rise/fall times round about 1.6....1.7ns, single channel enabled. See attached screenshots/files for details. I didn't expect the "lil'Rigol" to be so fast. Impressive!

Cheers,
Tom

 :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: sandor626 on July 05, 2017, 10:25:18 pm
If i saw that signal i would be worried. what is wrong?

It's probably a problem with probing.


(nice alliteration...)
Attention, I never said that the test signal was the one provided by the oscilloscope to calibrate the probes!  Of course I tried with an external signal
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DavidMassey on July 06, 2017, 12:31:01 am
I've had my DS1054Z for about a week now and am amazed at what it can do.  Right now I've got it set up to calibrate the head alignment of an old TEAC A-6300 reel-to-reel tape deck.  I'm feeding the Left line out from the deck to Channel 1 on the scope and Right line out from the deck to Channel 2 on the scope.  My question is, is it possible to lock the V/division of Channel 1 and Channel 2 together so if I want to adjust the gain (V/division) of the vertical I don't have to individually select Channel 1 and Channel 2 to change the vertical gain to match each other.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 06, 2017, 05:42:41 am
I've got my DS10x4Z already for a few years but only now got to check the rise time with a half-way decent square source -- my recently constructed Rb 10MHz source with multiple outputs, among them three pretty fast 74LVC drivers with a symmetrizised (sp?) square. These outputs directly connected to the DS...Z's input via RG58 and a proper terminator result in rise/fall times round about 1.6....1.7ns, single channel enabled. See attached screenshots/files for details. I didn't expect the "lil'Rigol" to be so fast. Impressive!

Cheers,
Tom


Impressive indeed, but what happens if you expand the timebase so that you can see the most of the rising/falling edge? remember that this scope makes measurements based on the screen's pixels (measurements are made on screen buffer) and not on acquired data
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 06, 2017, 06:00:57 am
Impressive indeed, but what happens if you expand the timebase so that you can see the most of the rising/falling edge? remember that this scope makes measurements based on the screen's pixels (measurements are made on screen buffer) and not on acquired data

 :-//

The 5ns/div time base TurboTom used (in the second and third screenshot) is the fastest timebase the DS1000Z series offers. The rise time is clearly a fraction of one division, approx. 1/3 of a division. So I don't think the fast rise time is an artefact of the on-screen measurement in any way. (More data points or a faster time base would give you a more precise measurement of the rise time, but won't make it larger than 1.7 ns.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 06, 2017, 06:05:21 am
I've had my DS1054Z for about a week now and am amazed at what it can do.  Right now I've got it set up to calibrate the head alignment of an old TEAC A-6300 reel-to-reel tape deck.  I'm feeding the Left line out from the deck to Channel 1 on the scope and Right line out from the deck to Channel 2 on the scope.  My question is, is it possible to lock the V/division of Channel 1 and Channel 2 together so if I want to adjust the gain (V/division) of the vertical I don't have to individually select Channel 1 and Channel 2 to change the vertical gain to match each other.

No, 'fraid not. I don't think this is a common function in DSOs. If you need to change vertical scales a lot (why?), scopes with individual vertical controls for each channel do have a distinct advantage...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 06, 2017, 07:21:00 am
...My question is, is it possible to lock the V/division of Channel 1 and Channel 2 together so if I want to adjust the gain (V/division) of the vertical I don't have to individually select Channel 1 and Channel 2 to change the vertical gain to match each other.

I never heard about, or saw such a feature on any oscilloscope ever, but it can be done very easy by sending SCPI commands from a computer. Here is some doc about how to do it without installing anything, using LXI: https://hackaday.io/project/6857-master-your-rigol-from-command-line

You can use this technique to send SCPI commands from a terminal, like in this one that saves a capture of the oscilloscope screen without installing any software or drivers: https://rogeorge.wordpress.com/2017/01/10/ds1054z-tricks-less-known-or-undocumented-part-2/

For changing both CH1 and CH2 to 1V/div, that would become something like (assuming you give the IP 192.168.1.3 to your scope):
Code: [Select]
echo ":CHANnel1:SCALe 1" | nc -w1 192.168.1.3 5555
echo ":CHANnel2:SCALe 1" | nc -w1 192.168.1.3 5555

You can create many files with a batch of SCPI commands, one for each desired vertical sensitivity, and run them from your computer when you want to change the scale simultaneously on both CH1 and CH2.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on July 06, 2017, 07:43:52 am
Or via USB. No additional software or IP-address needed. In a console just enter:

Code: [Select]
echo ":CHAN1:SCAL 1" > /dev/usbtmc0
For all possible commandline options, have a look here:

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0386/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z_Programming%20Guide_EN.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0386/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z_Programming%20Guide_EN.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 06, 2017, 08:12:44 am
Impressive indeed, but what happens if you expand the timebase so that you can see the most of the rising/falling edge? remember that this scope makes measurements based on the screen's pixels (measurements are made on screen buffer) and not on acquired data
:-//

The 5ns/div time base TurboTom used (in the second and third screenshot) is the fastest timebase the DS1000Z series offers.

Yes, but certain people here need to hate the DS1054Z at every opportunity.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 06, 2017, 08:14:03 am
I've had my DS1054Z for about a week now and am amazed at what it can do.  Right now I've got it set up to calibrate the head alignment of an old TEAC A-6300 reel-to-reel tape deck.  I'm feeding the Left line out from the deck to Channel 1 on the scope and Right line out from the deck to Channel 2 on the scope.  My question is, is it possible to lock the V/division of Channel 1 and Channel 2 together so if I want to adjust the gain (V/division) of the vertical I don't have to individually select Channel 1 and Channel 2 to change the vertical gain to match each other.

No, not possible.

(I never saw this function on any oscilloscope)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 06, 2017, 08:58:35 am
Or via USB. No additional software or IP-address needed. In a console just enter:

Code: [Select]
echo ":CHAN1:SCAL 1" > /dev/usbtmc0

I never knew Linux can talk to a USB TMC device without installing any drivers, thank you Karel!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 06, 2017, 09:02:28 am
Impressive indeed, but what happens if you expand the timebase so that you can see the most of the rising/falling edge? remember that this scope makes measurements based on the screen's pixels (measurements are made on screen buffer) and not on acquired data

 :-//

The 5ns/div time base TurboTom used (in the second and third screenshot) is the fastest timebase the DS1000Z series offers. The rise time is clearly a fraction of one division, approx. 1/3 of a division. So I don't think the fast rise time is an artefact of the on-screen measurement in any way. (More data points or a faster time base would give you a more precise measurement of the rise time, but won't make it larger than 1.7 ns.)

ack! that slipped my mind

impressive indeed then :-+ i was never able to measure a risetime faster than something more than 2.5 ns, with higher bandwidth probes or with terminated coax, i think that's the limit for my unit  :(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DavidMassey on July 06, 2017, 10:32:09 am
The reason I would be changing the vertical sensitivity during a head alignment is the calibrated test tape (not cheap!) has a series of tones at 0 VU level and another set of tones at -10 VU (ten dB below 0 VU) and it would have been nice to have both channels on the scope track each other in the gain settting.  Oh well, I can live with having to change each channel individually   :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gabri74 on July 06, 2017, 10:43:25 am
Oh well, I can live with having to change each channel individually   :)

There is the excellent app DsRemote http://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/  (http://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/)  maybe you can ask the author to add channel vertical tracking and then control the scope remotely ?

The author is active on the forums:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/free-ds6000ds1000z-software/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/free-ds6000ds1000z-software/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on July 06, 2017, 11:11:36 am
I've had my DS1054Z for about a week now and am amazed at what it can do.  Right now I've got it set up to calibrate the head alignment of an old TEAC A-6300 reel-to-reel tape deck.  I'm feeding the Left line out from the deck to Channel 1 on the scope and Right line out from the deck to Channel 2 on the scope.  My question is, is it possible to lock the V/division of Channel 1 and Channel 2 together so if I want to adjust the gain (V/division) of the vertical I don't have to individually select Channel 1 and Channel 2 to change the vertical gain to match each other.

I had the need to do this for a project a few years ago, however the scope I was using (think it was a Tektronix) had a seperate knob for each channel. A thick rubber band around the two knobs was my "engineering solution" to the problem, turn one and the other turned with it :D

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DavidMassey on July 06, 2017, 08:22:51 pm
That's funny!  Rubber bands and duct tape can fix anything!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DavidMassey on July 06, 2017, 08:26:34 pm
I'll do that!  It seems possible.  I was thinking if the firmware would recognize the pressing of two channel buttons at the same time (or maybe if you are really coordinated you could press all four at one time!) it would know to lock both channels together for gain control (or other parameters).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Chumanista on July 07, 2017, 07:11:37 pm
Made a new video, with instructions on how to reset the options that were requested a few times and a quick way to enable them via USB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pquUqPVF39c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pquUqPVF39c)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 07, 2017, 08:07:01 pm
Made a new video, with instructions on how to reset the options that were requested a few times and a quick way to enable them via USB

Thank you. But I have two improvement suggestions for your instructions:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Chumanista on July 08, 2017, 04:34:01 pm
I added the commands to the description, YouTube sadly took annotations away so no way to add it to the video.
UltraSigma is big as hell but simple, most the alternatives I found require weird installation processes.
Glad you like the video!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on July 09, 2017, 09:11:57 am
Made a new video, with instructions on how to reset the options that were requested a few times and a quick way to enable them via USB:

As explained before, you can do this in 15 seconds using USB or LAN without the need to install any software.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2017, 11:10:24 am
UltraSigma is big as hell but simple, most the alternatives I found require weird installation processes.

I didn't find it simple.

The 'telnet' method doesn't require any installation at all. Just connect with an Ethernet cable, open a command line window, copy/paste the commands.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: danadak on July 10, 2017, 10:02:59 am
Where in forum is enhancement suggestion list being kept ?

I would like to add following to it -

Not sure if someone has already covered this but I would like
added into firmware -

1) Start by allowing user in very large font to put at least one
measurement on the screen, filling the screen, or 1/2 screen,
so can be read across the room. Seems like all the single
measurements could be done this way with a simple routine.
Font size controlled by user, routine handles display and
centering. Screen is large enough even 2 measurements this
way quite useful.

Part of this would be an auto scaling function to keep the
measurement in range while working across the room. This
would be applied if measurement overlayed on top of normal
scope trace screen. So trace vertical sensitivity always keeping
trace size visible.

2) Chart recorder function coupled with PC API. There are times
I need to look at very slow rate events, circuits, that want strip
chart like functionality.

Item 2 another user has suggested to me to use the programming manual
and write code to do this.

Regards, Dana.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 10, 2017, 10:11:56 am
Where in forum is enhancement suggestion list being kept ?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-buglist-continued-(from-fw-00-04-04-03-02)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-buglist-continued-(from-fw-00-04-04-03-02)/)

The new headline refers to "bugs" only, but I understand that -- like its precursor thread referenced in the opening post -- this thread deals with bugs as well as suggested improvements and features.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 10, 2017, 02:34:03 pm

2) Chart recorder function coupled with PC API. There are times
I need to look at very slow rate events, circuits, that want strip
chart like functionality.

Item 2 another user has suggested to me to use the programming manual
and write code to do this.

Regards, Dana.

If I understand your request, then I would like that too. I think I will try to configure Microsoft Excel to communicate with the scope using the example in the programming manual.

I would like to get a screen plot of a long event, such as charging/discharging batteries, so something like a 1 hr/div sweep would seem appropriate.

After writing that, I wonder if using X-Y mode and manually controlling the sweep would work? (I'm away now).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on July 10, 2017, 03:04:29 pm
this thread deals with bugs as well as suggested improvements and features.

Since there have not been any new feature requests since I took over the buglist, I have not yet decided how to properly deal with possible requests.
One problem is, that there is no working pipeline to communicate these things with Rigol. I had various contacts with Rigol Europe, some resellers here in Germany and also mailed to the Rigol headquarters and gave their "support forum" a try - my question has not yet been answered, but marked as "processing" or something like that. I posted my firmware related question several months ago so I do not think that qualifies for anything. Rigol Europe seems to be aware of some threads on this forum but they explicitly do not want to get involved here. Personally I think that is a bad move. The answer regarding getting involved here (since a lot of users have Rigol hardware) has been kind of answered by a representative from Rigol Europe in an email I got. I did not fully understand the backstory - he told me that since some direct competitors were already involved as users in the forum and there was some kind of Rigol bashing going on, they had no interest in diverting resources to forum support.
I replied that my perception is that of a very unbiased forum with - of course - some love and hate for personal favorite brands, but nothing that would imply campaigning against anything in particular.

You see: So far, my approaches in establishing means of communicating problems and suggestions directly with Rigol did not work out great. - Just so you know what to expect from feature suggestions.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 10, 2017, 03:05:52 pm

2) Chart recorder function coupled with PC API. There are times
I need to look at very slow rate events, circuits, that want strip
chart like functionality.

Item 2 another user has suggested to me to use the programming manual
and write code to do this.

Regards, Dana.

If I understand your request, then I would like that too. I think I will try to configure Microsoft Excel to communicate with the scope using the example in the programming manual.

I would like to get a screen plot of a long event, such as charging/discharging batteries, so something like a 1 hr/div sweep would seem appropriate.

After writing that, I wonder if using X-Y mode and manually controlling the sweep would work? (I'm away now).

 :scared:

It seems like the wrong tool for the job to me. Do you really want your 'scope to be tied up for days doing something like monitoring a battery?

Why not use something like an Arduino instead? It has more ADC bits, uses less power, less space, connects directly to a PC, etc. There's a ton of data logging software available for them, etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on July 10, 2017, 03:22:44 pm

It seems like the wrong tool for the job to me. Do you really want your 'scope to be tied up for days doing something like monitoring a battery?
If it's a tool you're familiar with, why not?

Quote
Why not use something like an Arduino instead? It has more ADC bits, uses less power, less space, connects directly to a PC, etc. There's a ton of data logging software available for them, etc.

The problem with such approaches is that the measurement itself soon becomes an end rather than a medium.

If you have the tool, you are already familiar with its limitations and features, what's wrong? The familiar user interface of an oscilloscope makes it a very good tool for many data capture applications. :)

I remember the comments to a post by myself wondering about the µCurrent. Suggestions for a diy route while I needed to make a reasonably reliable measurement, period, not to get involved into designing a current measurement system.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 10, 2017, 03:31:51 pm
It seems like the wrong tool for the job to me. Do you really want your 'scope to be tied up for days doing something like monitoring a battery?

Why not use something like an Arduino instead? It has more ADC bits, uses less power, less space, connects directly to a PC, etc. There's a ton of data logging software available for them, etc.

Agree. Or use a multimeter with logging functionality (either on-board or to a PC via USB or Bluetooth), which comes complete with a front end for monitoring voltage, current ... over wide ranges. If the software supplied with the meter does not cut it, Sigrok can log data from many meters, including low-cost options.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 10, 2017, 03:50:06 pm
Quote from: fungus
Why not use something like an Arduino instead? It has more ADC bits, uses less power, less space, connects directly to a PC, etc. There's a ton of data logging software available for them, etc.
The problem with such approaches is that the measurement itself soon becomes an end rather than a medium.

 :-//

I'm not the one asking for a 'chart recorder' function to be added to the DS1054Z or trying to make it talk to Microsoft Excel.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 10, 2017, 03:50:56 pm

If I understand your request, then I would like that too. I think I will try to configure Microsoft Excel to communicate with the scope using the example in the programming manual.

I would like to get a screen plot of a long event, such as charging/discharging batteries, so something like a 1 hr/div sweep would seem appropriate.

After writing that, I wonder if using X-Y mode and manually controlling the sweep would work? (I'm away now).

 :scared:

It seems like the wrong tool for the job to me. Do you really want your 'scope to be tied up for days doing something like monitoring a battery?

Why not use something like an Arduino instead? It has more ADC bits, uses less power, less space, connects directly to a PC, etc. There's a ton of data logging software available for them, etc.

I may use an Arduino since I have 'em, but will need to design a circuit so I can accurately measure high voltages. The scope, if it had that feature, would just be an easy way to get a complete plot without any work, ordering parts, and waiting, etc. Not days, just a couple few hours for the measurement. I do not have any other instruments (like a DMM) that can interface with a PC, but that would be my choice if I had one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 10, 2017, 03:56:59 pm
Or use a multimeter with logging functionality (either on-board or to a PC via USB or Bluetooth), which comes complete with a front end for monitoring voltage, current ... over wide ranges. If the software supplied with the meter does not cut it, Sigrok can log data from many meters, including low-cost options.

The best meter I have is an original Fluke 87. I don't recall if it has data logging, but I could manually take readings.

I'm not sure why, but it seems to be somewhat offensive to desire a much longer sweep period than 50s/div. Is it really unreasonable?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 10, 2017, 03:59:57 pm
I may use an Arduino since I have 'em, but will need to design a circuit so I can accurately measure high voltages.

Resistors+trimmer as voltage divider?

The DS1054Z spec says it's only about 5% accurate in voltage readings (perfectly normal for 'scopes in this price range). An Arduino has the potential to do much better than that.

PS: https://www.adafruit.com/product/1141 (https://www.adafruit.com/product/1141) - datalogging with timestamps.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on July 10, 2017, 04:08:42 pm
Literally ANY cheap  DMM with PC link will be safer and more accurate than a scope for that job....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 10, 2017, 04:19:21 pm
I'm not sure why, but it seems to be somewhat offensive to desire a much longer sweep period than 50s/div. Is it really unreasonable?

Not offensive, of course, but it seems like a scope provides the wrong trade-off between time resolution and ADC resolution for such long-term monitoring tasks. (And it consumes more power than needed, and it is noisy while it sits there logging...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on July 10, 2017, 05:50:03 pm
Taking a webcam to record the screen of a DMM and using OCR to convert video input to CSV seems more reasonable than using a digital scope for voltage logging xD

As mentioned before, there are quite a number of cheapish DMMs with a serial port for data logging. On a very tight budget you could take a Uni-T / Vichy and hack the serial connection into it. There are a couple of threads on these. I would prefer that over the oscilloscope solution.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 10, 2017, 06:09:22 pm
I'm not sure why, but it seems to be somewhat offensive to desire a much longer sweep period than 50s/div. Is it really unreasonable?

fun fact, the Lecroy boat anchor i have over here has 10kS/s as the longest timebase :|
that's a 27 hours long record
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on July 11, 2017, 12:10:46 am
I'm not sure why, but it seems to be somewhat offensive to desire a much longer sweep period than 50s/div. Is it really unreasonable?

fun fact, the Lecroy boat anchor i have over here has 10kS/s as the longest timebase :|
that's a 27 hours long record

Some of the early DSO boat anchors support an external sampling clock so the timebase can be controlled with a convenient pulse or function generator.  An external sampling clock also allows synchronous sampling applications like demodulation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 11, 2017, 04:52:04 am
Where in forum is enhancement suggestion list being kept ?

I would like to add following to it -

Not sure if someone has already covered this but I would like
added into firmware -

...

2) Chart recorder function coupled with PC API. There are times
I need to look at very slow rate events, circuits, that want strip
chart like functionality.

Item 2 another user has suggested to me to use the programming manual
and write code to do this.

Regards, Dana.

I bet such a request will never be added into firmware, but until then you can use this script to log the data:
https://github.com/RoGeorge/DS1054Z_data_logger (https://github.com/RoGeorge/DS1054Z_data_logger)
'DS1054Z_logger.py' is a Python script that adds Vavg measurement for all the 4 channels of a Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope, then periodically log the Vavg values in a PC file using a LAN connexion between computer and oscilloscope. No drivers are required to be installed on the PC.

To run the data logger, you must have Python 2.7 installed on your PC. Linux usually have it installed by default. For Windows, download and install Python 2.7 from Internet (https://www.python.org/downloads/ (https://www.python.org/downloads/)). After you have Python 2.7, download and unzip the https://github.com/RoGeorge/DS1054Z_data_logger/archive/master.zip (https://github.com/RoGeorge/DS1054Z_data_logger/archive/master.zip) . Go to the place where you unzipped it. Connect your PC and your oscilloscope to the LAN.

Assuming your oscilloscope have the IP address "192.168.1.7", type in the command line:
Code: [Select]
python DS1054Z_logger.py 3600 192.168.1.7
This will measure the Vavg voltage once per hour (3600 seconds), display the data and log it into a CSV file. To end the logging, press 'ESC'. If you want to make a chart, open the CSV data with any spreadsheet program, like Open Office Calc (recommended because it is free) or Microsoft Office Excel.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 11, 2017, 08:13:07 am
Thanks a ton.

This worked flawless too.

https://rigol.desk.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2270585-simple-excel-2010-vba-control-program-for-all-oscilloscopes

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 11, 2017, 08:48:43 am
fun fact, the Lecroy boat anchor i have over here has 10kS/s as the longest timebase :|
that's a 27 hours long record

I just checked the DS1054Z and it goes down to 40kS/sec at the slowest rate.

With 24Mb of memory that's 10 minutes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 11, 2017, 02:03:38 pm
You could also use segmented memory and get many hours, iirc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: okurka on July 15, 2017, 11:33:09 am
Am I the only one who got a 72 hour trial instead of 36?

(http://imgur.com/rtf4cDK.png)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 15, 2017, 12:49:47 pm
Am I the only one who got a 72 hour trial instead of 36?

Yes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Rbastler on July 15, 2017, 12:49:59 pm
I think I had 36h, but now infinite  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 25, 2017, 06:14:40 am
I'm trying to understand persistence time. I am triggering a 1pps signal and watching 10 MHz slowly drift on the second channel. I was expecting to set persistence time to 500ms  and see two traces after the second trigger, and then the persisting trace would fade away before the 3rd trigger. It looks like a 1sec persistence time persists a trace for 20 seconds, 500ms persists for 11 seconds, and 100ms persists for 3 seconds.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: boggis the cat on July 25, 2017, 02:04:35 pm
I'm trying to understand persistence time. I am triggering a 1pps signal and watching 10 MHz slowly drift on the second channel. I was expecting to set persistence time to 500ms  and see two traces after the second trigger, and then the persisting trace would fade away before the 3rd trigger. It looks like a 1sec persistence time persists a trace for 20 seconds, 500ms persists for 11 seconds, and 100ms persists for 3 seconds.  :-//
That seems odd.  Triggering issue?  Averaging mode set?  'Auto' trigger set instead of normal?

I think these modes have the usual behaviour of holding each trace for the set persistence time.  If the 'scope sample rate / triggering were producing ten traces per second then you would always have ten traces present, with the first one displayed having 'faded' the most.  If your trigger is working correctly then you should be getting a new trace each second, and it should fade out over the set persistence time.

(I don't have this 'scope, so perhaps this is incorrect.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on July 25, 2017, 02:12:29 pm
I'm trying to understand persistence time. I am triggering a 1pps signal and watching 10 MHz slowly drift on the second channel. I was expecting to set persistence time to 500ms  and see two traces after the second trigger, and then the persisting trace would fade away before the 3rd trigger. It looks like a 1sec persistence time persists a trace for 20 seconds, 500ms persists for 11 seconds, and 100ms persists for 3 seconds.  :-//

IIRC persistence in this scope (and in many DSOs) is calculated using trigger events rather than time. don't know why it's still expressed in seconds but still..
this is something i read in another thread -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-the-rigol-ds4000-trace-persistance-operaton-correct/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-the-rigol-ds4000-trace-persistance-operaton-correct/)
I made a note on investigating this issue with all the scopes i can get access to

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 25, 2017, 05:52:25 pm
Thank you for your investigation, and what a coincidence, that other thread! I think it should work a bit different as I described. I no longer expect the trace to fade during Wait for trigger mode, but the persisting trace should not be present on the next trigger when the elapsed time has expired.

For example, if I set a persistence of 1s and a trigger happens every second, the trace should either persist just once (not for 20 seconds), or maybe not at all as that is a threshold condition. If I set the persistence in this case to anything less than 1s, then there should not be any persisting trace. If I set it to 5s, then I would expect to see 4 persisting traces (or 5 depending on the threshold). Maybe the resolution of the threshold should be the minimum hold-off time.
Title: RAW data - problem getting the correct YIN, YOR values
Post by: Plasmateur on July 31, 2017, 01:48:11 am
I'm still having a bit of a hard time correctly transferring waveform data. It appears I have a sinusoidal wave with correct time steps when plotting the data, however the scaling is completely off and the signal does not oscillate about zero. I have the most recent firmware.

Using a signal generator @ 1MHz 2Vpp to trigger the DS1054Z, I send the following SCPI commands.

Code: [Select]
*RST

Wait 5 seconds

Then, for the next lines of code sent, I wait the same X seconds between each command where X has been varied to be between 50ms per command up to 1000ms per command in an attempt to see if waiting between commands will solve the problem of  receiving the incorrect YIN and YOR values.

Code: [Select]
:TRIG:MODE EDGE
:TRIG:EDGE:SOUR CHAN1
:TRIG:EDGE:LEV 1
:TRIG:EDGE:SLOP POS
:RUN
:TRIG:EDGE:SWE SING

(unit is triggered, wait X seconds)

Code: [Select]
:WAV:SOUR CHAN1
:WAV:MODE RAW
:WAV:FROM BYTE
:WAV:PRE?

Read data which is an array of different parameters. The returned YIN,YOR values appear to be incorrect when applying the following method to reconstruct the waveform.

(Signal_Array - YOR - YREF) X YIN = Waveform with a dt of XIN

Not sure what I'm doing wrong here.

Title: Re: RAW data - problem getting the correct YIN, YOR values
Post by: Karel on July 31, 2017, 07:53:37 am
I'm still having a bit of a hard time correctly transferring waveform data.

It's all written in the latest version of the programming guide which you can find here:

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0386/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z_Programming%20Guide_EN.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0386/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Z_Programming%20Guide_EN.pdf)

If you need some example code that demonstrates how to download the waveform data, have a look at the sourcecode of DSRemote:

https://github.com/Teuniz/DSRemote/ (https://github.com/Teuniz/DSRemote/)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on July 31, 2017, 02:34:42 pm
Something that wasn't really obvious to me until I started playing with persistence is that the current channel's trace is overlayed on top of the other traces.  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 12, 2017, 06:33:49 pm
After searching Google, I cannot seem to find a satisfying answer to the following question: is it possible to record waveforms on the DS1054Z in a way that they can be exported and played back on a arbitrairy signal generator in any sort of reasonable and usable fashion? Or am I looking for something that I am not going to find?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on August 12, 2017, 07:04:49 pm
After searching Google, I cannot seem to find a satisfying answer to the following question: is it possible to record waveforms on the DS1054Z in a way that they can be exported and played back on a arbitrairy signal generator in any sort of reasonable and usable fashion? Or am I looking for something that I am not going to find?
If you have Rigol AWG you can connect them directly with USB and do that directly between instruments without PC...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 12, 2017, 07:19:13 pm
After searching Google, I cannot seem to find a satisfying answer to the following question: is it possible to record waveforms on the DS1054Z in a way that they can be exported and played back on a arbitrairy signal generator in any sort of reasonable and usable fashion? Or am I looking for something that I am not going to find?

That's going to depend more on the signal generator than on the DS1054Z.

A DS1054Z can export data in various formats, you can grab data from a DS1054Z via a cable and use it for things.

So... if your google search term included the word "DS1054Z" then it was probably wrong.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 12, 2017, 07:32:58 pm
If you have Rigol AWG you can connect them directly with USB and do that directly between instruments without PC...
That actually sounds really good. What is this function called? I have searched for 'record', 'replay' and similar terms along with the DS1054Z and the Rigol DG1000Z series, but came up with nothing. Other than someone having a hard time exporting anything at a reasonable speed from the DS1054Z, that is. There does not seem to be a lot of information out there.


That's going to depend more on the signal generator than on the DS1054Z.

A DS1054Z can export data in various formats, you can grab data from a DS1054Z via a cable and use it for things.

So... if your google search term included the word "DS1054Z" then it was probably wrong.  :)
Yes, it seems that my Google skills are not up to par at the moment. Garbage in, garbage out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 12, 2017, 07:35:59 pm
It seems I found something in the message below. No source of the information, though.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-dg1022z/msg1075992/#msg1075992 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-dg1022z/msg1075992/#msg1075992)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on August 12, 2017, 07:50:43 pm
It seems I found something in the message below. No source of the information, though.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-dg1022z/msg1075992/#msg1075992 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-dg1022z/msg1075992/#msg1075992)
What do you mean no source of information...  :-//.... If you connect DS1000Z series scope and DG1000Z series via usb cable you get menu to transfer waveform..
Download manual for DS1000Z  and DG1000Z it is in there.... That's your source..

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 12, 2017, 08:07:26 pm
What do you mean no source of information...  :-//.... If you connect DS1000Z series scope and DG1000Z series via usb cable you get menu to transfer waveform..
Download manual for DS1000Z  and DG1000Z it is in there.... That's your source..
Sorry, not having the correct terminology made it a bit hard to find. No luck with 'transfer', 'import', 'record', 'replay', or a number of other terms. Eventually, looking for 'USB' led me to the following result in the Rigol DG1022Z manual:

Quote
TMC DS: seamlessly interconnect with the RIGOL DS that meets the TMC standard. Read and store the waveform data collected by the DS and rebuilt waveform losslessly.

In the manual of the DS1054Z it is mentioned it is a USBTMC device. It seems the DS1054Z and Rigol DG1022Z should indeed be able to communicate this way. Other AWGs of the same class also appear to possess this capability, though I am unsure of how compatible those actually are.

Thanks for the replies! Having the right terms makes all the difference in the world. It looks to be a really neat feature and rather unfortunate for my bank account :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on August 12, 2017, 09:40:55 pm
https://rigol.desk.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2287264-direct-waveform-transfer-from-a-ds1000z-scope-to-a-dg4000-generator
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: netdudeuk on August 13, 2017, 07:09:08 am
https://rigol.desk.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2287264-direct-waveform-transfer-from-a-ds1000z-scope-to-a-dg4000-generator

Maybe this will help too ?
https://youtu.be/wPjX7Ahvs9M (https://youtu.be/wPjX7Ahvs9M)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DavidA on August 21, 2017, 03:11:07 am
Just wanted to share that the DSER 'hack' works on a brand new (August 2017) model of the DS1054Z, shipped with Software Version 00.04.04.SP3 and Board Version 0.1.4, out of Australia.

After discovering that you can get more info by a rapid MENU+MENU+FORCE+MENU+Utility+System+System Info combination, I have a bit more info in case it's useful to anyone (or myself in future):


I also want to state that if anyone is using the telnet interface (":SYStem:OPTion:INSTall ...") to enter the code, be aware that you have to remove the hyphens from the code so that it's just one long uninterrupted sequence of numbers and digits. This may have been stated somewhere but I didn't see it, and had to discover this for myself.
 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on August 21, 2017, 05:14:46 am
Congratulations on your new scope!

re the Hyphens:
It has been mentioned several times before, both in this thread and in others.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DavidA on August 21, 2017, 06:18:20 am
Thanks. On the hyphen thing, it's a big thread and I must admit I didn't read it in entirety! :)

EDIT: I moved the comment that was here, about slope triggering, to its own thread here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-triggering-questions/msg1285414/#msg1285414).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope , new mainboard version
Post by: skander36 on September 05, 2017, 07:25:29 pm
Hi , I just observed that the mainboard of my 1054Z is different  by the ones from teardowns of Dave or Connor Wolf .
Main difference is that the footprints for FPGA and his ram for logic analyzer are missing but the footprints for connector are in place and linked directly to Spartan FPGA as shown in pictures attached
That conduct me to idea that some mods are possible (enabling logic analyzer) .
Obviously assuming  that I will surpass  LA button problem and I will managed to find what components are missing on the board .
Opinions are welcome !


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: skander36 on September 05, 2017, 07:28:10 pm
And another detailed pic from Dave's teardown .

P.S. Sorry for my English ...:) 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on September 05, 2017, 07:52:10 pm
Your first photo looks like the on you posted from Dave (EEVBlog as the board number matches).

So what are you trying to illustrate?  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: skander36 on September 05, 2017, 08:11:21 pm
The differences between the boards . First is from the scope that showed Dave , and 2 and 3 is from my scope .
I wrote in the text ...  footprints for logical analyzer ... read the post .
Thank you !
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on September 06, 2017, 04:54:19 am
The differences between the boards . First is from the scope that showed Dave , and 2 and 3 is from my scope .
I wrote in the text ...  footprints for logical analyzer ... read the post .
Thank you !
I did, yet I'm still lost.  :-//

FWIW, I've a 1054Z that I've unlocked. I can open it up to see if there are any differences in the hardware (mine is an older unit I've had for a couple/few years or so). I've not investigated if I can add the -S hardware, but I don't expect this would be easy (if even possible). Particularly in terms of upgrading the firmware.

Regardless, I'm partial to having a separate signal generator, logic analyzer, and so on, which can be had relatively inexpensively these days.   :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on September 06, 2017, 05:54:03 am
It would be more interesting to know wether they fixed the design problems with the PLL circuitry.

Which board version is it supposed to be?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: skander36 on September 06, 2017, 07:42:06 am
HI nanofrog ,
In teardown of the 1054Z you can see that there are pads (circled with red by me on Dave's pic) for one FPGA and one memory chip that serves as the interface for logic analyzer ( from connector that is already empty ).
In my version of the board as you can see in my pic , there are no more pads for IC interface but pads for connector are in their place and they leads to FPGA ( Xilinx ) . So this make me to think that they are chosen to simplify the design of the logic analyzer (mostly like by economic reasons) . This make more easy to mod this scope by adding a connector and some voltage regulators , than solder BGA components ...
The firmware is the same for 1054Z and for 1074Z Plus , so this is not a problem . Biggest problem  is finding values for the missing discrete components and  finding a way for adding a button and cutting a hole in the front mask . For the LA button are contacts on the keyboard , even with its own functional LED .
Yes , is better to have a separate logic analyzer . A clone of Saleae  cost 18 S on Ebay , but mod is justified by itself ...:)
 
By ,
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on September 06, 2017, 09:35:35 am
HI nanofrog ,
In teardown of the 1054Z you can see that there are pads (circled with red by me on Dave's pic) for one FPGA and one memory chip that serves as the interface for logic analyzer ( from connector that is already empty ).
In my version of the board as you can see in my pic , there are no more pads for IC interface but pads for connector are in their place and they leads to FPGA ( Xilinx ) . So this make me to think that they are chosen to simplify the design of the logic analyzer (mostly like by economic reasons) . This make more easy to mod this scope by adding a connector and some voltage regulators , than solder BGA components ...
The firmware is the same for 1054Z and for 1074Z Plus , so this is not a problem . Biggest problem  is finding values for the missing discrete components and  finding a way for adding a button and cutting a hole in the front mask . For the LA button are contacts on the keyboard , even with its own functional LED .
Yes , is better to have a separate logic analyzer . A clone of Saleae  cost 18 S on Ebay , but mod is justified by itself ...:)
 
By ,
You're just absolutely determined to make me open mine up and check out the internals aren't you....  :o  :P

FWIW, I'm a fan of separate instruments, even if it requires a computer to keep them within the budget/s I set (the fact I've multiple monitors doesn't hurt either  >:D *). For example, what I've seen of Saleae Logic Analyzers, I'd have no problem using my computer to see the device's output (granted, there's cheaper units, but Saleae's software seems well worth the extra cost).

* Additional monitors and arms to keep them off the bench surface are reasonably priced these days IME.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 06, 2017, 10:55:19 am
The difference between boards is puzzling. While an LA might be possible without the second FPGA, I wonder where do they store the LA samples, because the additional RAM chip is missing too.

skander36, can you connect some wires, then "press" the missing LA button under CH4, and see if your oscilloscope enters into Logic Analyzer mode? If yes, then it would be interesting to wire one or two lines from the LA connector pads to outside of the oscilloscope's case and test if it really works as an LA.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: skander36 on September 06, 2017, 12:50:09 pm
Yes , but why do they keep the pads for connector of LA  onboard , and with link to FPGA if they not intended to use it ?
It is clearly a redesign of the board . If they do that , why do not completely eliminate pads for LA connector ?

I will try to verify that LA mode can be activated .
This is the first useful post , because you suggest me first thing that I was supposed to do .
Thanks ! 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: skander36 on September 06, 2017, 02:21:54 pm
The difference between boards is puzzling. While an LA might be possible without the second FPGA, I wonder where do they store the LA samples, because the additional RAM chip is missing too.

skander36, can you connect some wires, then "press" the missing LA button under CH4, and see if your oscilloscope enters into Logic Analyzer mode? If yes, then it would be interesting to wire one or two lines from the LA connector pads to outside of the oscilloscope's case and test if it really works as an LA.

George , I was trying but without success . "Function limited" appear on screen . I guess that must activated as an option with a code like DSER or something ... because there is DS 1074Z Plus that has function "Digital Channels" upgradable , or with the resistors above the each set of jumpers  (0/1) .
Anyway there is a discussion here : https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-s-ds1104z-s-signal-generator-daughterboard/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-s-ds1104z-s-signal-generator-daughterboard/)
 and a picture with a mainboard like mine
http://cimage.tianjimedia.com/uploadImages/2014/253/48LG420GN54D.jpg (http://cimage.tianjimedia.com/uploadImages/2014/253/48LG420GN54D.jpg)
. The add-on board from the picture is a 2 Ch. signal generator .
But nobody hasn't reached a final conclusion .
Bye,
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Hydron on September 06, 2017, 05:02:53 pm
The "Plus" version of the DS1000Z series comes with the LA connector populated but without the probes necessary to use it. It's priced between the MSO and DS non-plus models (and is only available for 70MHz+ by the looks of it). I assume they are just sharing the PCB design between the "Plus" and non-Plus models.

The LA channels disable 1 or 2 analog channels when in use, which is awful and makes the MSO pointless in my opinion, but that's how they avoided adding more RAM/FPGA resources to the Plus/MSO version!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SparkyM8 on September 06, 2017, 06:45:49 pm
Has anyone found difficulty uninstalling options with the 00.04.04.03.02 firmware?
I don't think I am doing anything wrong but

:SYST:OPT:UNINST

does nothing over USB or LAN. No error messages and nothing returned to the PC.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 06, 2017, 08:05:26 pm
Has anyone found difficulty uninstalling options with the 00.04.04.03.02 firmware?
I don't think I am doing anything wrong but

:SYST:OPT:UNINST

does nothing over USB or LAN. No error messages and nothing returned to the PC.

does *IDN? work?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: skander36 on September 06, 2017, 08:15:20 pm
The "Plus" version of the DS1000Z series comes with the LA connector populated but without the probes necessary to use it. It's priced between the MSO and DS non-plus models (and is only available for 70MHz+ by the looks of it). I assume they are just sharing the PCB design between the "Plus" and non-Plus models.

The LA channels disable 1 or 2 analog channels when in use, which is awful and makes the MSO pointless in my opinion, but that's how they avoided adding more RAM/FPGA resources to the Plus/MSO version!

So , even if I manage to activate LA mode  , I will need logic probes RPL1116 which cost over 300 E . . .
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: skander36 on September 06, 2017, 08:17:32 pm
Has anyone found difficulty uninstalling options with the 00.04.04.03.02 firmware?
I don't think I am doing anything wrong but

:SYST:OPT:UNINST

does nothing over USB or LAN. No error messages and nothing returned to the PC.

Case is important :
:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 06, 2017, 09:47:58 pm
Has anyone found difficulty uninstalling options with the 00.04.04.03.02 firmware?
I don't think I am doing anything wrong but

:SYST:OPT:UNINST

does nothing over USB or LAN. No error messages and nothing returned to the PC.

The command works fine. Just make sure there's a newline character at the end of the command string.

As metrologist said, does *IDN? report anything back?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 06, 2017, 10:03:21 pm
Case is important :
:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

SCPI isn't case sensitive. The capitalization simply indicates to the reader which characters are required. Uppercase ones are; lowercase ones are not. For example, the following are all equivalent:

:SYST:OPT:UNINST
:syst:opt:uninst
:syste:opti:uninsta
:system:option:uninstall.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: skander36 on September 06, 2017, 10:24:11 pm
On my scope at SCPI prompt  this command : :SYST:OPT:UNINST    has absolutely no effect .
But this :  :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall  has immediately effect .
This particular command seem to be case sensitive ... :)
The others  (like AUT instead AUTo) works .
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 06, 2017, 10:35:27 pm
If so, then it's a bug (either in the firmware or the documentation).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SparkyM8 on September 07, 2017, 01:17:57 am
Thanks skander36

I didn't think to try that. The command needed is

:SYST:OPT:UNINSTALL

SCPI is not case sensitive, as bitseeker pointed out. By convention in documentation the lower case parts are supposed to be optional.
So unless this is a bug and :SYST:OPT:UNINST used to work on previous FW releases the manual is wrong and should say

:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTALL

Which is pretty unusual since the parts of SCPI commands are not more than 5 characters in general
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 07, 2017, 01:26:18 am
Perhaps engineering wanted to be sure you really mean it when you enter the command. ;D I guess the documentation writer didn't get that memo.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 07, 2017, 02:07:26 am
Thanks skander36

I didn't think to try that. The command needed is

:SYST:OPT:UNINSTALL

SCPI is not case sensitive, as bitseeker pointed out. By convention in documentation the lower case parts are supposed to be optional.
So unless this is a bug and :SYST:OPT:UNINST used to work on previous FW releases the manual is wrong and should say

:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTALL

Which is pretty unusual since the parts of SCPI commands are not more than 5 characters in general

There is a 999 page SCPI conformance document that defines SCPI syntax and style, originally authored by the SCPI Consortium, now under control of the IVI Foundation. It specifies that short form SCPI commands are to be 4 characters long, unless the 4th character is a vowel, in which case the short form is then to be 3 characters long, unless the long form would be 4 characters long anyway.

Meaning MODE and SWEep...

I always expect anything in between to throw a syntax error.

Therefore, the proper forms of the command should be

:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINstall

or

:SYST:OPT:UNIN

and no period.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: skander36 on September 07, 2017, 07:28:35 am
Indeed , if someone (like me) read the manual carefully , will found :
Command Abbreviation
All the commands are case-insensitive and you can use any of them. If abbreviation is used, all the capital letters in the command must be written completely. For example, :MEASure:ADISplay? can be abbreviated to :MEAS:ADIS?.

Thx !
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 07, 2017, 07:37:20 am
SCPI standard specifications (far all SCPI instruments and all manufacturers):
http://www.ivifoundation.org/docs/scpi-99.pdf (http://www.ivifoundation.org/docs/scpi-99.pdf)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 07, 2017, 08:07:14 am
Lets say that Rigol is not a prime example of scpi implementation...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2017, 08:59:47 am
Lets say that Rigol is not a prime example of scpi implementation...

You'll probably find it works perfectly if you send an SCPI newline instead of copying/pasting with a Windows newline.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 07, 2017, 09:26:40 am
Lets say that Rigol is not a prime example of scpi implementation...

You'll probably find it works perfectly if you send an SCPI newline instead of copying/pasting with a Windows newline.

There's no such thing as a "windows newline". windows uses a carriage return and a newline (linefeed).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newline#Representations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newline#Representations)

I don't know if the Rigol accepts a carriage return + linefeed, I don't use windows...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 07, 2017, 09:31:05 am
Oh sure, it's always the user's fault, except for when some commands freeze the instrument, or at least hangs all SCPI communication until the next power cycle, or when a firmware update changes the SCPI response or disable TCP port 5566 without documenting the change, or the instrument's registers are not described in the instrument's SCPI manual, or when commands or options are totally missing from the manuals, or when they return incomplete or misaligned raw data, and so on.
 ;D

These are just a few I remember to bother me the most in the past, but they are not all. Almost each time I wanted to use Rigol SCPI, I bumped into something that it was either unreliable to use, or simply not working according to SCPI specs, or according to the instrument's Programming Guide/User Manual. It's a delicate balance between the SCPI standard and various Rigol implementation quirks, and it's always shifting from one firmware to another.

Here is a tutorial about how to write software for Rigol's SCPI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KVPA-9hofw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KVPA-9hofw)

:)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SparkyM8 on September 07, 2017, 01:03:20 pm
SCPI in the DS1054Z does need a bit more work in a few areas.
But it is way better than the Siglent scopes, which are dreadful.
I was planning on a SDS2000X at 3.5x the price of the DS1054Z, but programming was a total showstopper.
Probably a discussion for another thread.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2017, 01:09:46 pm
I don't know if the Rigol accepts a carriage return + linefeed

But you posted anyway.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 07, 2017, 08:02:20 pm
The correct answer would be "It depends of the FW version, sometimes it even works without any LF or CRLF at all."

Never mind, this is a new one I bumped into:

NEW BUG (Software 00.04.04.SP3, Board 0.1.1): When a bad SCPI command is followed by another command, then query the error queue using ":SYST:ERR?", the SCPI will become unresponsive until the next power cycle.
Note: This will not happen for any bad command, so far I found that commands that make the oscilloscope to display "Function Limited!" or "Invalid Input!" will trigger this kind of bug.

Steps to reproduce:
1. Connect a Rigol DS1054Z to LAN, then start Netcat by typing in a terminal:
nc 192.168.1.3 5555

3. In the NetCat, type
:WAV:STAR 0

4. Now type at least one more SCPI command, good or bad, for example
:WAV:STAR 1

5. SCPI apparently is still working, until you type:
:SYST:ERR?

6. Now the oscilloscope won't respond to any other SCPI command, and it won't accept new TCP connections until the next power cycle.

Rigol, please fix it.
 :-BROKE



Example
Code: [Select]
:WAV:MODE:NORM
:syst:err?
-113,"Undefined header; keyword cannot be found"

:WAV:MODE NORM
:syst:err?
0,"No error"

:WAV:MODE STAR 1201
:syst:err?
-220,"Parameter error"
:syst:err?
0,"No error"
So far all good, as expected.

Now, try this:
Code: [Select]
:WAV:STAR 1201
:WAV:STAR 120
:syst:err?
That's it, SCPI hangs until the next power on.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on September 07, 2017, 09:19:42 pm
NEW BUG (Software 00.04.04.SP3, Board 0.1.1): When a bad SCPI command is followed by another command, then query the error queue using ":SYST:ERR?", the SCPI will become unresponsive until the next power cycle.

Could you please post your findings to the DS1000Z buglist (cont.) thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-buglist-continued-(from-fw-00-04-04-03-02)) as well?
Also a "short" description to be included into the buglist (OP) would be nice. This would help me to keep the OP clean and updated, will then hopefully append your findings this weekend.

Regards, Frederik
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 07, 2017, 11:31:51 pm
Done.
Not sure about the short description request, it has 'Steps to reproduce', example, and description instead.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 08, 2017, 12:03:17 am
The OP has a short list in his first post, like a ToC: maybe something like SCPI Syntax Error Handling Bug?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CustomEngineerer on September 08, 2017, 03:17:47 am
It would be more interesting to know wether they fixed the design problems with the PLL circuitry.

Why, what problem is it causing?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2017, 08:37:19 am
Why, what problem is it causing?

Beats me  :-//  but some people can't sleep at night thinking about it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on September 08, 2017, 09:41:16 am
It would be more interesting to know wether they fixed the design problems with the PLL circuitry.

Why, what problem is it causing?
A few but Fungus doesn't really want to answer this fully.

Members MarkL and Bud are those that narrowed it down to design problems with the PLL and then Dave did a vid on it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/)

Then Bud started looking hard at his own DS2000A, which he documented in full:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/)

So yes, if there is a new revision MB it will be interesting to see if these things have been addressed,
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 08, 2017, 09:44:29 am
I was planning on a SDS2000X at 3.5x the price of the DS1054Z, but programming was a total showstopper.

Can you elaborate on that?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on September 08, 2017, 09:53:52 am
It would be more interesting to know wether they fixed the design problems with the PLL circuitry.

Why, what problem is it causing?
A few but Fungus doesn't really want to answer this fully.

Members MarkL and Bud are those that narrowed it down to design problems with the PLL and then Dave did a vid on it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/)

Then Bud started looking hard at his own DS2000A, which he documented in full:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/)

So yes, if there is a new revision MB it will be interesting to see if these things have been addressed,

At the very least it can increase noise.

And no, I am not in the Rigol or Siglent bashing business. I actually own a DS1074Z and a SDS1202X-E and both have proven really useful and worthy despite their limitations.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2017, 12:14:00 pm
It would be more interesting to know wether they fixed the design problems with the PLL circuitry.
Why, what problem is it causing?
A few but Fungus doesn't really want to answer this fully.
Members MarkL and Bud are those that narrowed it down to design problems with the PLL and then Dave did a vid on it.

And... then what happened?

It looks like a few people don't want to tell the whole story, they prefer to keep on hating.  :palm:

For anybody wondering:
3) Rigol issued a firmware update.
4) Now it all works perfectly.

Dave even did another video to confirm it but I guess you lost the URL to that one, right?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 08, 2017, 12:53:59 pm
If anybody knows where I can find the steps to reproduce the PLL/jitter problems, please tell me, and I'll give it another try.

I just tested my DS1054Z for jitter, and it's rock solid, no jitter at all.
In the pic is more than 10 minutes of run with infinite persistence for either sinus and square waveform.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on September 08, 2017, 01:39:16 pm
It would be more interesting to know wether they fixed the design problems with the PLL circuitry.
Why, what problem is it causing?
A few but Fungus doesn't really want to answer this fully.
Members MarkL and Bud are those that narrowed it down to design problems with the PLL and then Dave did a vid on it.

And... then what happened?

It looks like a few people don't want to tell the whole story, they prefer to keep on hating.  :palm:

For anybody wondering:
3) Rigol issued a firmware update.
4) Now it all works perfectly.

Dave even did another video to confirm it but I guess you lost the URL to that one, right?
You can find it easy on Daves site:
https://www.eevblog.com/episodes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/episodes/)
https://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/05/eevblog-699-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-jitter-fix-testing/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2015/01/05/eevblog-699-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-jitter-fix-testing/)

Anyway all this stuff is in this thread for anybody to find.
If anybody knows where I can find the steps to reproduce the PLL/jitter problems, please tell me, and I'll give it another try.

I just tested my DS1054Z for jitter, and it's rock solid, no jitter at all.
In the pic is more than 10 minutes of run with infinite persistence for either sinus and square waveform.
You won't reproduce it unless you roll back to very early firmware...........that's if you can. Sometimes there's firmware locks to prevent this.
IIRC at the time there were doubts the jitter issue could be masked with firmware but it was bad enough that I think a new record was set for the fastest FW release.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SparkyM8 on September 08, 2017, 02:07:57 pm
I was planning on a SDS2000X at 3.5x the price of the DS1054Z, but programming was a total showstopper.

Can you elaborate on that?

Probably best in another thread but briefly:-

One programming manual for all the scopes they ever made with many errors and omissions and user expected to work out what parts apply to there model.
Many commands are missing.
Could not show download of all 140Mpts.
Totally inconsistent return format not conforming to any standard.

e.g. query timebase reply TDIV 5.00E-03S  or TDIV 1.00E-03ms
       query delay      reply TRDL 0.00us

You get upper case, lower case, suffices and mixed up units all of which don't meet SCPI.
That is just the tip of the iceberg.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 08, 2017, 02:22:30 pm
You won't reproduce it unless you roll back to very early firmware...........that's if you can. Sometimes there's firmware locks to prevent this.
IIRC at the time there were doubts the jitter issue could be masked with firmware but it was bad enough that I think a new record was set for the fastest FW release.  :)
Since the bug is not present in my oscilloscope, I thought that maybe I didn't used the correct settings/signals to reproduce it, so I asked for more detailed steps to reproduce.

Looking at the PLL's spectrum in the Dave's video, it seems that the PLL jitter bug was fixed (not only masked) long time ago, so no further questions. I have no intention to reproduce fixed bugs, thank you.

To answer the question from a couple of days ago, yes, the PLL jitter was fixed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2017, 02:48:16 pm
To answer the question from a couple of days ago, yes, the PLL jitter was fixed.

Yes, two years ago, but certain forum members still can't sleep at night thinking about it.

(and some of them don't even own a DS1054Z...)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 08, 2017, 03:59:47 pm
(and some of them don't even own a DS1054Z...)

Some of them do not own a Rigol DSO because their evaluations of both documentation and instrument revealed that Rigol is deceitful and makes poor quality products.

I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.  That flawed PLL design should have been caught by quality control.  So should the likely hook problem reported in another discussion recently.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on September 08, 2017, 04:42:40 pm
I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.

Not going to pick sides here, but in my book value for money is still impressive, looking at Rigol from the perspective of electronics enthusiasts / tinkerers.
No one will be arguing about the fact, that professional electronics engineers might be better of spending at least an order of magnitude more on a scope. Just like you would pick a reliable Agilent / Fluke / HP / ... multimeter over a Uni-T one (even if the latter also provides incredible value for money). Professionals have a totally different scope of tool requirements *seewhatIdidthere?*

So...
What was your point again?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 08, 2017, 05:00:57 pm
Some of them do not own a Rigol DSO because their evaluations of both documentation and instrument revealed that Rigol is deceitful and makes poor quality products.

I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.  That flawed PLL design should have been caught by quality control.  So should the likely hook problem reported in another discussion recently.

Again, it was not a PLL design issue, it was a software bug, and it was fixed.

From my experience, DS1054Z is not low quality at all, and considering its features and specs, and the fact that all its software upgrades can be unlocked for free, it's a great tool. In fact, it is so good that even today, at 3 years after it was launched, it is still unbeatable for its price. There is no real competitor for it.

Yes, sometimes there are bugs, but most of them were just corner cases, nothing that will make the whole oscilloscope unusable. All complex instruments have bugs, because all of them are, after all, software driven. Even the very expensive ones from the biggest manufacturers have bugs. And yes, I worked at the office with oscilloscopes 10-100 times more expensive then DS1054Z, and they are definitely not 10-100 times better then a DS1054Z, they are better, but not a big difference, they are almost the same.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to have an opinion, and mine it is that Rigol is not deceitful. On the contrary, they are making good instruments at an unexpectedly low price.

In my experience, DS1054Z served me well for 2 years, it's a keep, and if it would be to buy today a $400 scope, then I will buy it again, without any hesitation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2017, 05:02:49 pm
I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.

So? It's still amazing value for money and a really useful thing to own. You want better? Spend more money.

The thing I don't get is the need to come in here and bash the DS1054Z over a bug that was completely fixed two years ago.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2017, 05:08:53 pm
Anyway, everyone is entitled to have an opinion, and mine it is that Rigol is not deceitful.

Deceitful would be (for example): Posting a link to Dave's video showing the PLL problem but not posting the followup video that showed it was completely fixed a couple of weeks later by a firmware update.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 08, 2017, 07:21:12 pm
Again, it was not a PLL design issue, it was a software bug, and it was fixed.

And it was missed by quality control or rather the lack of it.  That is a repeating issue with Rigol and not with minor problems.

Quote
Anyway, everyone is entitled to have an opinion, and mine it is that Rigol is not deceitful.

Rigol deliberately manged various industry standard terms to make it seem that their DSOs support functions that they do not have.  They lied, repeatedly.  When I first found this in their documentation during evaluation of their DS1000A and DS1000E, I did not believe it and thought maybe it was a translation problem so I contacted their customer support and they unequivocally lied to me as well.  They continue to do so.

Quote
Yes, sometimes there are bugs, but most of them were just corner cases, nothing that will make the whole oscilloscope unusable.

The problem for me is that I would want to buy a new DSO for capabilities that my existing instruments lack.  When those capabilities are broken whether they are "corner cases" or not, then the new DSO has no advantage over the old one.  For example in this case, the new DSO cannot even do thing my old analog oscilloscopes can do like make RMS noise measurements.

So great, arguably none of these problems make the oscilloscope unusable but they also defeat many of the reasons to consider it an upgrade.

Quote
All complex instruments have bugs, because all of them are, after all, software driven. Even the very expensive ones from the biggest manufacturers have bugs.

My standard for quality is not based on other companies also making poor products.

I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.

So? It's still amazing value for money and a really useful thing to own. You want better? Spend more money.

Have I said otherwise?  It is a great value for the money even with its warts.  I spent less for better however I knew exactly what would be sufficient for my needs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 08, 2017, 07:21:19 pm

Some of them [forum member] do not own a Rigol DSO because their evaluations of both documentation and instrument revealed that Rigol is deceitful and makes poor quality products.

I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.  That flawed PLL design should have been caught by quality control.  So should the likely hook problem reported in another discussion recently.

I think that is an unfair caricature of Rigol. I do not consider the DS1054Z and its documentation to be top notch, but it's not as poorly designed and low quality to ascribe them the reputation of being deceitful either. Surely you must have some other basis?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 08, 2017, 07:48:56 pm
It is a great value for the money even with its warts.  I spent less for better however I knew exactly what would be sufficient for my needs.

I'm curious for what you spent less and how it excels too. Maybe I made a mistake? To a lesser extent, I'm also curious to know what they "manged" and lied about, specifically. It seems to me that the big three dance around this just the same, but maybe not to some blatant extent. It's all about specsmanship and who can get away with what. Is that not well known? Anyway, that does not seem specific to the DS1054Z.

In my case, specific things like RMS noise measurements was not the litmus test. I was upgrading from a nice Tek that I was perfectly happy with, but no longer even turns on. I do not know where it excels in performance otherwise, but I'd be interested to know. What do I have, I think a 2430A? I still would like to fix it, too... Maybe that would convince me to dump my Rigol into the sea.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CustomEngineerer on September 08, 2017, 11:47:38 pm
It would be more interesting to know wether they fixed the design problems with the PLL circuitry.

Why, what problem is it causing?
A few but Fungus doesn't really want to answer this fully.

Members MarkL and Bud are those that narrowed it down to design problems with the PLL and then Dave did a vid on it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/)

Then Bud started looking hard at his own DS2000A, which he documented in full:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/)

So yes, if there is a new revision MB it will be interesting to see if these things have been addressed,

Again, what problem is the hardware PLL issue causing? I've still never seen anyone show any negative affect because of it (not jitter, that was fixed with a firmware update before yaigol). So what are these few problems you are referring to?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on September 09, 2017, 03:39:30 am
It would be more interesting to know wether they fixed the design problems with the PLL circuitry.

Why, what problem is it causing?
A few but Fungus doesn't really want to answer this fully.

Members MarkL and Bud are those that narrowed it down to design problems with the PLL and then Dave did a vid on it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/)

Then Bud started looking hard at his own DS2000A, which he documented in full:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/)

So yes, if there is a new revision MB it will be interesting to see if these things have been addressed,

Again, what problem is the hardware PLL issue causing?
The component values and ADC settings prevented the PLL from locking.
If there indeed been MB changes that would be good to know as member borjam questions, as do I.
Quote
I've still never seen anyone show any negative affect because of it (not jitter, that was fixed with a firmware update before yaigol).
Yes, fixed by masking with firmware of the PLL design errors. Not all scopes were affected to the same level, such is the minor differences in component batch values:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg566538/#msg566538 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg566538/#msg566538)
Another that MarkL had a look at:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg583676/#msg583676 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg583676/#msg583676)

Bud's short summary:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg577669/#msg577669 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg577669/#msg577669)

Daves screenshots of before and after firmware:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578859/#msg578859 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578859/#msg578859)

I've been following these issues for some years and I'm still not convinced the design is "beyond measure" but if there has been a HW change and if indeed PLL component values are what they should be then we know the product has been improved.


So rather than keep pointing fingers, somebody open the latest unit and have a look.
For reference, pics of the ADC and PLL componentry:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg553418/#msg553418 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg553418/#msg553418)



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on September 09, 2017, 06:29:19 am
Yes, fixed by masking with firmware of the PLL design errors.

Fixed by configuring the PLL parameters such that it runs stably with the original component values. What's wrong with that? Why would you call that "masking errors"?

Quote
Daves screenshots of before and after firmware:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578859/#msg578859 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578859/#msg578859)

The side bands are 70dB down with the new PLL configuration. Looks good to me.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on September 09, 2017, 10:26:15 am
Yes, fixed by masking with firmware of the PLL design errors.

Fixed by configuring the PLL parameters such that it runs stably with the original component values. What's wrong with that?

It's a bodge.
Read all the jitter thread and tell us what has been done to get the ADC to meet the manufacturer's design spec.
To make the PLL work with the HW so that the fundamental frequency was dominant there are only a few things that can be changed, reference frequencies and oscillator supply current.
Buds posts explain this in depth.

Quote
Why would you call that "masking errors"?
I didn't.
What I said was the PLL design errors were masked with the new firmware.

Quote
Daves screenshots of before and after firmware:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578859/#msg578859 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578859/#msg578859)
Quote
The side bands are 70dB down with the new PLL configuration. Looks good to me.

It might, but the evidence presented by Bud shows the PLL is still not locked as it should be if the design had followed the ADC datasheet.
Again, read Buds posts.


Hopefully someone will do some tests/checks to see if this latest MB PCB has been revised.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on September 09, 2017, 11:17:14 am
So rather than keep pointing fingers, somebody open the latest unit and have a look.
For reference, pics of the ADC and PLL componentry:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg553418/#msg553418 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg553418/#msg553418)

DS1054Z
Mainboard V01.04_20141024
HW Version V[654][32].[10]

Looks exactly like in the pictures cited above. Same chip, same layout.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2017, 12:05:46 pm
I've been following these issues for some years and I'm still not convinced the design is "beyond measure" but if there has been a HW change and if indeed PLL component values are what they should be then we know the product has been improved.

a) In what way could changing the PLL improve anything? What problems is the current PLL causing?

b) At this stage of the product life cycle I'd expect any hardware changes to be with an eye on reducing costs, not on improving anything.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on September 09, 2017, 12:28:02 pm
(and some of them don't even own a DS1054Z...)

Some of them do not own a Rigol DSO because their evaluations of both documentation and instrument revealed that Rigol is deceitful and makes poor quality products.

I do not need to own a DS1054Z to know that it is a poorly designed and low quality instrument.  That flawed PLL design should have been caught by quality control.  So should the likely hook problem reported in another discussion recently.
Oh puh-leez. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But it is clearly better than nothing, which is exactly what the alternative would have been for me. Unlike USA, there is practically no used test gear market here, so since my budget didn't allow for a big-name scope, it was the rigol or nothing. And so far, I haven't really run into something the rigol really failed at where a better one would have worked. So all in all, my learning has been huge thanks to it. And heck, learning to know the limitations of equipment is also a really important lesson.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mnementh on October 10, 2017, 01:05:49 am
For those looking to buy one, Arrow is running a special through Friday - $50 off $200 or more AND Free Overnight shipping to the Continental US with promo code FIFTY. You can see in the ScreenCap below that all of the RIGOL stock appears to be eligible. You can probably get our preferred vendor TEquipment.net to price match; I do like their service.

Cheers,


mnem
Well, whaddayou know... I CAN find my arse with both hands.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Yannik on October 28, 2017, 08:09:38 pm
My Scope (purchased a few days ago) came with firmware 04.04.SP3.

Is this version newer than v00.04.04.03.02?

Trying to upgrade to the publicly available v00.04.04.03.02 gives me an "Caution: An older software version detected" error and fails to update.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any information on the 04.04.SP3 firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 28, 2017, 08:54:24 pm
My Scope (purchased a few days ago) came with firmware 04.04.SP3.

Is this version newer than v00.04.04.03.02?

Trying to upgrade to the publicly available v00.04.04.03.02 gives me an "Caution: An older software version detected" error and fails to update.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any information on the 04.04.SP3 firmware.

v00.04.04.03.02 is displayed on the scope as 04.04.SP3.
So, you have already the most recent version.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on October 28, 2017, 09:04:07 pm
Yes.

To display the full System Info screen, press very rapidly in the front panel Trigger section: Menu Menu Force Menu; then Utility>System>System Info. You should then see the actual Software Version number, along with some other information that isn't displayed in the partial System Info screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on November 05, 2017, 04:36:35 pm
Last week I bought another DS1054Z for a students lab at our university. The scope now comes with PVP2150 probes (https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-06be/1/-/-/-/-/PVP2150%20User%27s%20Guide.pdf) instead of the RP2200 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-019c/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf).
The probes are all black and the 1x / 10x switch is recessed. 1x rise time is much better, RP probes have 20cm longer cables. Other than that both types seem pretty comparable and come with the same accessories.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on November 05, 2017, 06:56:44 pm
Last week I bought another DS1054Z for a students lab at our university. The scope now comes with PVP2150 probes (https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-06be/1/-/-/-/-/PVP2150%20User%27s%20Guide.pdf) instead of the RP2200 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-019c/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf).
The probes are all black and the 1x / 10x switch is recessed. 1x rise time is much better, RP probes have 20cm longer cables. Other than that both types seem pretty comparable and come with the same accessories.
That change was made last year, FYI. They look comfier to use than the older ones, what do you think?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on November 05, 2017, 08:54:03 pm
That change was made last year, FYI. They look comfier to use than the older ones, what do you think?

Since Rigol does not really advertise these kind of changes, I did not notice, but was a little surprised when I unboxed the new scope (together with a DP832 bench power supply).
I like the recessed mode selection switch, since on the RP2200 the switches tend to have a live on their own - so that is a very welcome change in design for sure.
Regarding the overall handling I can not yet tell, because I only had time to unbox the devices and report to our purchasing department that delivery was complete. I think the 20cm shorter cables will not be an issue here, because the test bench is not that big either. Generally having longer cables is not a bad thing though :)
Wednesday I am in that lab and will have time to do the basic check-up, firmware update (if required) and am curious to take a look at the noise level of the DP832 with the new scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on November 05, 2017, 09:48:53 pm
... on the RP2200 the switches tend to have a live on their own ...

Indeed; I also find that the attenuator switches on those probes move far too easily. I have removed the yellow switch caps on mine (they can easily be pried off using your favorite fingernail). I leave the probes set to 10:1 nearly all the time. In the rare instances where I need 1:1 the switch can be moved with a small screwdriver blade.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: petl on December 28, 2017, 01:01:56 pm
Since the bug is not present in my oscilloscope, I thought that maybe I didn't used the correct settings/signals to reproduce it, so I asked for more detailed steps to reproduce.

Looking at the PLL's spectrum in the Dave's video, it seems that the PLL jitter bug was fixed (not only masked) long time ago, so no further questions. I have no intention to reproduce fixed bugs, thank you.

To answer the question from a couple of days ago, yes, the PLL jitter was fixed.

Does that mean the 500uV/div option is working fine now?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: zbyr on December 28, 2017, 01:06:51 pm
No, it's totally different thing, option 500uV/div never will work fine because lack of hardware, just this scope is not capable doing it (even option 1mV/div is just zooming screen of 2mV/div).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on December 28, 2017, 01:23:58 pm
PLL jitter and 500uV/div are not related, so I don't understand why the quote is about PLL and the question is about 500uV.

Anyway, I have the 500uV installed, and it always worked (as far as I can remember). The only problem with it was that if you don't recalibrate after installing the 500uV/div option, then the trace can have a big offset on the screen.

Even if theoretically the 500uV option kind of "works", the analog front end in DS1054Z is very noisy. For 500uV/div with no probes attached I have a noise of about 2-3 divisions pk-pk depending on what channel I am looking at, so it's almost unusable.

If you need an oscilloscope for small signals, then the DS1054Z is not the right tool.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on December 28, 2017, 03:54:46 pm
Anyway, I have the 500uV installed, and it always worked (as far as I can remember). The only problem with it was that if you don't recalibrate after installing the 500uV/div option, then the trace can have a big offset on the screen.
I do not believe that the 500 uV/div setting is part of the calibration process. If it works for you, consider yourself lucky the cal settings work for you. For most the sweep is off the screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: cogliostro on December 30, 2017, 07:04:26 pm
Just wanted to say Thanks to the guy / guys who have created the Rigol Unlock Tool  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mavu on January 01, 2018, 02:41:51 pm
Hi

Quick question:

This is my first digital scope, and on my analog one, I could just look at all the buttons and knobs, and know my settings.
On this, I have to remember that I set some offset, or trigger on CH3 or something and hunt for it before I can actually use it.

Is there a button/option somewhere in those menus that "reset" my capture settings to some sane default?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Daruosha on January 01, 2018, 02:51:22 pm
RTFM, anyhow. Push "Storage" button and select 'default' from the menu. 

Hi

Quick question:

This is my first digital scope, and on my analog one, I could just look at all the buttons and knobs, and know my settings.
On this, I have to remember that I set some offset, or trigger on CH3 or something and hunt for it before I can actually use it.

Is there a button/option somewhere in those menus that "reset" my capture settings to some sane default?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Chris56000 on January 01, 2018, 04:10:46 pm
Hi!

Just out of interest, how much work has been done into reversing the Rigol 1054 schematics? - I know Dave has a video showing how he did it for one vertical channel of part of the acquitision PCB, which I've seen, but did anyone go beyond that?

I'd be much more keen on putting £100 a month aside towards one if there's schematic-help in exsistence!

Chris Williams

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on January 01, 2018, 04:23:29 pm
Hi!

Just out of interest, how much work has been done into reversing the Rigol 1054 schematics? - I know Dave has a video showing how he did it for one vertical channel of part of the acquitision PCB, which I've seen, but did anyone go beyond that?

I'd be much more keen on putting £100 a month aside towards one if there's schematic-help in exsistence!

Chris Williams

Not exactly schematic reverse engineer though, but a fully firmware "REWRITE" project.

The author posted a thread -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/rigol-ds10xxz-firmware-re-write/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/rigol-ds10xxz-firmware-re-write/)

and he is also pledging a hardware donation or maybe even funding  :-// (not sure) in order to continue his work ..

-> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/wtb-broken-rigol-ds10xxz-scopemainboard/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/wtb-broken-rigol-ds10xxz-scopemainboard/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 01, 2018, 04:28:45 pm
Just out of interest, how much work has been done into reversing the Rigol 1054 schematics? - I know Dave has a video showing how he did it for one vertical channel of part of the acquitision PCB, which I've seen, but did anyone go beyond that?

There's not really much point in going further than that. Once the signal arrives at the ADC it's all about software.

I guess you could do the power supply, but... there's not really much to see there either. :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on January 01, 2018, 04:35:46 pm
I guess you could do the power supply, but... there's not really much to see there either. :-//

Actually, I've been dreaming to replace the whole power supply module space which is quite big, with self contained rechargeable Li-Ion cells to make it fully portable with charging circuit in it too.

Not sure if this is even possible and for sure beyond my kung-fu level.  :-//

I'm aware there is another diy project here in this forum that did powering this scope using batteries, but by slapping and sort of duct taped bunch of Li-Ion cells at the rear the scope, which is butt ugly less appealing at least to me.  ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 01, 2018, 04:46:44 pm
I guess you could do the power supply, but... there's not really much to see there either. :-//

Actually, I've been dreaming to replace the whole power supply module space which is quite big, with self contained rechargeable Li-Ion cells to make it full portable with charging circuit in it too.

Not sure if this is even possible. But this is beyond my kung-fu level.  :-//

It shouldn't be difficult, it's just a DC power supply that outputs 5V, 12V (or whatever).

You don't need a schematic to figure it out, just grab a multimeter and have a poke at wires that go from the PSU to the PCB.

It's not a high power device. A few 18650 batteries with suitable DC converters ought to be able to do it, just make sure you have enough amps on each DC voltage (ie. measure with a decent multimeter that has min/max mode, add a safety factor, be sure to look closely at powerup current, current when writing to USB sticks, etc).

Some people have added external batteries: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-pack-for-rigol-ds1054z/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-pack-for-rigol-ds1054z/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on January 03, 2018, 08:42:23 pm
Hi
Is there a button/option somewhere in those menus that "reset" my capture settings to some sane default?

You can also save and recall custom setups. See Chapter 14 and the Storage menu.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Charlie86 on January 07, 2018, 01:26:30 pm
What is default password for Rigol DS1054Z in web GUI and what is best software to manage it via PC/MAC?

Thank you
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on January 07, 2018, 03:49:00 pm
What is default password for Rigol DS1054Z in web GUI and what is best software to manage it via PC/MAC?

I never used the web gui of the scope. Try rigollan/111111. Have a look here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1110174/#msg1110174 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1110174/#msg1110174)

For software have a look here: https://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/ (https://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Charlie86 on January 08, 2018, 06:09:37 pm
I try to login but with out success. Is there any other user pass combination? Oscilloscope is brand new and did not change any setting/passwords.

Thank you for linked software.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on January 09, 2018, 12:10:24 am
Where exactly do you try to login? The web interface (http on port 80) does not require a login.
I could not find working credentials to access the »Networks Settings« page ./DS1000Z_NetworkSettings.html though.
The default password on the »Security« site ./DS1000Z_Security.html seems to be 111111 - You can set a new password, but I do not know what it is used for.

These ports are open on the device by default:

    Open TCP Port:    80           http
    Open TCP Port:    111          sunrpc
    Open TCP Port:    617          sco-dtmgr
    Open TCP Port:    618          dei-icda
    Open TCP Port:    619          compaq-evm
    Open TCP Port:    5555         personal-agent

The »Network Settings« login window reads:
Code: [Select]
The site says: “SunZhe”I could not find any further reference in the documentation or the FAQs.

These credentials are mentioned on various places:

user:    password: 111111
user: rigollan password: 111111
user: test password: 111111

I am not sure about »rigollan« as a valid user name though. It is buried in the firmware file together with the 111111 password, but my guess would be that it is simply the host name and not the user for LXI credentials.

Getting access to that site is mostly for reasons of curiosity, because all the settings can be altered on the device directly through Utility -> IO Setting -> LAN Conf.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gandalf_Sr on February 17, 2018, 08:36:36 pm
I've just ordered a DS1054Z-B from Tequipment.net, is there something different about the '-B' version or is it just the latest hardware?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lundmar on February 17, 2018, 08:50:58 pm
What is default password for Rigol DS1054Z in web GUI and what is best software to manage it via PC/MAC?

Thank you

You could give lxi-tools a try - works perfectly fine with the DS1054Z.

http://lxi-tools.github.io (http://lxi-tools.github.io)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on February 17, 2018, 09:20:16 pm
I've just ordered a DS1054Z-B from Tequipment.net, is there something different about the '-B' version or is it just the latest hardware?
It can be a refurbished instrument. That means a lower price than usual. But the supplier has to mention that it is a refurbished one and not a brand new one. Didn't you notice such an announcement? And was it the usual price or not?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on February 17, 2018, 09:30:42 pm
At Tequipment the -B seems to indicate B-stock and demo units with full warranty.
It is the same device as any other 1054Z but might have been a returned unit.
For 315$ it sounds like a nice deal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on February 17, 2018, 09:49:59 pm
At Tequipment the -B seems to indicate B-stock and demo units with full warranty.
It is the same device as any other 1054Z but might have been a returned unit.
For 315$ it sounds like a nice deal.

"Not all accessories may be included" according to Tequipment. If that should mean missing probes, it would not be quite such a nice deal. But you could probably still get four replacement probes at less than the price difference.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: maxwell3e10 on February 17, 2018, 11:23:46 pm
I am sorry not to follow through the whole thread, but I like to get the RMS noise of 1054Z scope with shorted inputs. On another thread I compared Owon, Instek, Micsig and TEK for 50 Ohm shorted input, for 1 V/div setting and 1 mV/div setting. Would be good to add Rigol 1054Z as well as Siglent SDS1104X-E and Keysight  DSOX1000.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DougM on February 18, 2018, 05:11:21 am
This thread has grown HUGE since I last saw it.

Anyway, I was using my DS1054Z to look at a 0 to 40V 1kHz square wave I was making in a driver output stage. I increased the gain to look at the shape and noise on the low level of the square wave and found that I could only zoom in about 1 or two clicks from 10V/box before the input stage seemed to behave very very badly on saturation.

I want to look at the signal with much better resolution than 2 or 5 V/box.  Is it possible I'm doing something stupid?  I don't see what. This is very very disappointing behavior and is making me wonder if I should have just spent a bit more...
Any thoughts?
Doug

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on February 18, 2018, 06:48:15 am
You may want to describe the behavior more specifically and include some screen captures from the scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: edavid on February 18, 2018, 05:40:27 pm
Anyway, I was using my DS1054Z to look at a 0 to 40V 1kHz square wave I was making in a driver output stage. I increased the gain to look at the shape and noise on the low level of the square wave and found that I could only zoom in about 1 or two clicks from 10V/box before the input stage seemed to behave very very badly on saturation.

I want to look at the signal with much better resolution than 2 or 5 V/box.  Is it possible I'm doing something stupid?  I don't see what. This is very very disappointing behavior and is making me wonder if I should have just spent a bit more...

I think your expectations are unreasonable.  Any 8 bit scope is going to have the same issue.

You can try reducing your test frequency so the scope has more time to recover from the overdrive.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on February 18, 2018, 06:53:47 pm
Anyway, I was using my DS1054Z to look at a 0 to 40V 1kHz square wave I was making in a driver output stage. I increased the gain to look at the shape and noise on the low level of the square wave and found that I could only zoom in about 1 or two clicks from 10V/box before the input stage seemed to behave very very badly on saturation.

I want to look at the signal with much better resolution than 2 or 5 V/box.  Is it possible I'm doing something stupid?  I don't see what. This is very very disappointing behavior and is making me wonder if I should have just spent a bit more...
Any thoughts?
Doug

Most oscilloscopes have unspecified and poor overload recovery whether analog or digital.  Some are truly terrible in this regard.  Still, recovery from a 1 kHz overload should be plenty fast for the measurement you were attempting unless you were looking at the area immediately after the overload.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DougM on February 18, 2018, 07:48:38 pm
Yeah, maybe my expectations are unreasonable, but (perhaps naively) I didn't think this seemed a terribly challenging scenario.

Here are the screenshots at 10v/box 5v, and 2v.  I really want a much closer look at this waveform under a bunch of different load conditions. I'm not sure I can with this 'scope, unless there's something I'm missing or unaware of.
cheers,
Doug
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on February 19, 2018, 01:06:57 am
All I can say is wow, that is terrible overload recovery.  CCD based digital storage oscilloscopes like my Tektronix 2440 have bad overload recovery but what you are showing there is much worse.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on February 19, 2018, 03:49:56 am
Yeah, maybe my expectations are unreasonable, but (perhaps naively) I didn't think this seemed a terribly challenging scenario.

Here are the screenshots at 10v/box 5v, and 2v.  I really want a much closer look at this waveform under a bunch of different load conditions. I'm not sure I can with this 'scope, unless there's something I'm missing or unaware of.
cheers,
Doug

I just have to ask... you are using your probe at 10x, and channel setting to match, right?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DougM on February 19, 2018, 05:24:22 am
Yeah, maybe my expectations are unreasonable, but (perhaps naively) I didn't think this seemed a terribly challenging scenario.

Here are the screenshots at 10v/box 5v, and 2v.  I really want a much closer look at this waveform under a bunch of different load conditions. I'm not sure I can with this 'scope, unless there's something I'm missing or unaware of.
cheers,
Doug

I just have to ask... you are using your probe at 10x, and channel setting to match, right?

Indeed I am. I'm using the Rigol probes that came with the 'scope at 10x. 

Unless I can find some way to change this behavior, I'll likely have to get another scope. This kind of signal is not unusual for some of the stuff I'll be working on for a while.
Like I say, I'm quite surprised by this behavior. I've used many scopes over the years (decades!), though I'll readily admit I don't have much experience with low cost digital scopes. If it had even occurred to me that this sort of thing might be a problem I would have asked about it, specifically, on the forum.

cheers,
Doug
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 19, 2018, 07:11:10 am
Anyway, I was using my DS1054Z to look at a 0 to 40V 1kHz square wave I was making in a driver output stage. I increased the gain to look at the shape and noise on the low level of the square wave and found that I could only zoom in about 1 or two clicks from 10V/box before the input stage seemed to behave very very badly on saturation.

I think what you're describing is called "overload recovery" (https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=opamp+overload+recovery), it's a general problem with all opamps (not just the ones in the DS1054Z).

To see that signal you'll need to:
a) Buy a very expensive oscilloscope
or
b) Add some external components to isolate it
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gandalf_Sr on February 19, 2018, 10:00:57 am
"Not all accessories may be included" according to Tequipment. If that should mean missing probes, it would not be quite such a nice deal. But you could probably still get four replacement probes at less than the price difference.
Yeah, you're right that it is a refurb unit but it better have the probes or I'll return it.  One reviewer said it came with the wrong power cord - I don't care about that - but the other 2 reviewers said they were open-box units with all the accessories.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on February 19, 2018, 12:10:18 pm
I think what you're describing is called "overload recovery" (https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=opamp+overload+recovery), it's a general problem with all opamps (not just the ones in the DS1054Z).

Operational amplifiers started being used in oscilloscope front ends to control drift of the input source follower starting in the early 1980s and those oscilloscopes did not have this problem.  Unless this particular Rigol is broken, what is going on is due to a design flaw.

Poor overload recovery is 10s to 100s of nanoseconds.  What is shown here is literally 1000s of times worse.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 19, 2018, 12:34:58 pm
I think what you're describing is called "overload recovery" (https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=opamp+overload+recovery), it's a general problem with all opamps (not just the ones in the DS1054Z).

Operational amplifiers started being used in oscilloscope front ends to control drift of the input source follower starting in the early 1980s and those oscilloscopes did not have this problem.  Unless this particular Rigol is broken, what is going on is due to a design flaw.

Really? Most manufacturers have discussion of this on their web sites, eg.:

https://www.tek.com/document/competitive/overdrive-recovery (https://www.tek.com/document/competitive/overdrive-recovery)

https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/ADMF2008_SwitchingModePowerMeasureUsingScopes.pdf (https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/ADMF2008_SwitchingModePowerMeasureUsingScopes.pdf)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on February 19, 2018, 02:24:27 pm
I think what you're describing is called "overload recovery" (https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=opamp+overload+recovery), it's a general problem with all opamps (not just the ones in the DS1054Z).

Operational amplifiers started being used in oscilloscope front ends to control drift of the input source follower starting in the early 1980s and those oscilloscopes did not have this problem.  Unless this particular Rigol is broken, what is going on is due to a design flaw.

Really? Most manufacturers have discussion of this on their web sites, eg.:

Old oscilloscopes did not have the magnitude of the problem displayed by this Rigol.  Other modern DSOs do not have the magnitude of the problem displayed by this Rigol.  100s of microseconds of overload recovery (1) time for an overload of only 9 divisions?  Really?  I have to overload my 2232 by 72 divisions to approach the same effect which is two more increases in vertical sensitivity and the 2232 has what I consider terrible overload recovery.  The Rigol overloaded immediately.

In the past they made special vertical amplifiers which could recover from any overload within a bounded time so for instance a 10 volt overload at 1mV/div or 10,000 divisions (!) required a recovery of 1 to 100 microseconds depending on the accuracy required.  (2) But even normal oscilloscopes did much better than the example here.

Quote
https://www.tek.com/document/competitive/overdrive-recovery (https://www.tek.com/document/competitive/overdrive-recovery)

"404 not found" "Page not found"

Which is typical of Tektronix's broken web site.

Quote
https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/ADMF2008_SwitchingModePowerMeasureUsingScopes.pdf (https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/ADMF2008_SwitchingModePowerMeasureUsingScopes.pdf)

"Some oscilloscopes are known to have better overdrive recovery than other oscilloscopes."

This is true.

"However, all oscilloscopes are vulnerable to an overdrive state, so it is best to avoid this condition if possible."

This is completely false.  For instance sampling oscilloscopes are completely immune to overload short of damage making them uniquely useful for measurements where this is important.

The Rigol and any other modern DSO should be able to make this measurement despite overload.  The overload recovery demands in this case are not in any way extreme.

(1) It really should be called "overdrive" recovery.  Overload implies destructive levels.

(2) At this level of overload, thermal effects come into play so the amplifiers recover within a microsecond but it takes 100 microseconds for the thermal effects to dissipate.  These thermal effects are the same ones which limit settling time in precision operational amplifiers.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DougM on February 19, 2018, 03:13:48 pm
I think what you're describing is called "overload recovery" (https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=opamp+overload+recovery), it's a general problem with all opamps (not just the ones in the DS1054Z).

Operational amplifiers started being used in oscilloscope front ends to control drift of the input source follower starting in the early 1980s and those oscilloscopes did not have this problem.  Unless this particular Rigol is broken, what is going on is due to a design flaw.

Really? Most manufacturers have discussion of this on their web sites, eg.:

https://www.tek.com/document/competitive/overdrive-recovery (https://www.tek.com/document/competitive/overdrive-recovery)

https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/ADMF2008_SwitchingModePowerMeasureUsingScopes.pdf (https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/ADMF2008_SwitchingModePowerMeasureUsingScopes.pdf)


Can someone else with this 'scope please see if they can replicate this problem?  I don't have any reason to think mine is defective, but I'm quite disappointed by this performance...   (0V to 40V 1kHz square wave, and look at it at 2V/div)

cheers
Doug
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 19, 2018, 03:33:58 pm
Can someone else with this 'scope please see if they can replicate this problem?  I don't have any reason to think mine is defective, but

There's been other threads on it, eg.:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-vertical-distortion-problem/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-vertical-distortion-problem/)

I'm quite disappointed by this performance...   (0V to 40V 1kHz square wave, and look at it at 2V/div)
It's not something that's usually listed in datasheets.

Solutions: You could rectify your signal or clamp it with a zener diode to reduce the peak to peak voltage. It'll only cost $1 or so.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DougM on February 19, 2018, 04:44:45 pm
Can someone else with this 'scope please see if they can replicate this problem?  I don't have any reason to think mine is defective, but

There's been other threads on it, eg.:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-vertical-distortion-problem/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-vertical-distortion-problem/)

I'm quite disappointed by this performance...   (0V to 40V 1kHz square wave, and look at it at 2V/div)
It's not something that's usually listed in datasheets.

Solutions: You could rectify your signal or clamp it with a zener diode to reduce the peak to peak voltage. It'll only cost $1 or so.


Yeah, Indeed I could work around pre-conditioning the signal in a number of ways, but anything that would give the flexibility of a well-behaved 'scope would be a project that I just don't have time for right now.
It's my fault, I suppose. 8 bit and modest speed is fine for this type of use, I just didn't do enough research to realize that the input stages weren't capable of placing that 8-bits of dynamic range at the interesting part of the signal...

Doug
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on February 19, 2018, 06:46:17 pm
It's not something that's usually listed in datasheets.
Yes it is. It is called offset range. But ofcourse the scope should be able to deal with it properly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 19, 2018, 07:17:47 pm
According to the manual the DS1054Z offset range is better with the probe on 1x setting. You could fiddle around with that.

It brings its own set of problems though, you might want to enable the 20MHz bandwidth limiter.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DougM on February 19, 2018, 08:17:00 pm
According to the manual the DS1054Z offset range is better with the probe on 1x setting. You could fiddle around with that.

It brings its own set of problems though, you might want to enable the 20MHz bandwidth limiter.

 
Yes, you're right. It doesn't even seem to specify the offset range at 10x.  1x looks more promising. I will try that and report back.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on February 19, 2018, 08:21:19 pm
It's not something that's usually listed in datasheets.

Yes it is. It is called offset range. But of course the scope should be able to deal with it properly.

Offset range and the offset function have nothing to do with overdrive recovery.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on February 19, 2018, 08:29:55 pm
It's not something that's usually listed in datasheets.

Yes it is. It is called offset range. But of course the scope should be able to deal with it properly.

Offset range and the offset function have nothing to do with overdrive recovery.
That depends entirely on how the offset circuit has been designed. If it is designed to look at a signal with a large DC offset and not at a detail of a large signal (what DougM wants) then it will fail.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: DougM on February 20, 2018, 03:52:34 am
According to the manual the DS1054Z offset range is better with the probe on 1x setting. You could fiddle around with that.

It brings its own set of problems though, you might want to enable the 20MHz bandwidth limiter.

 
Yes, you're right. It doesn't even seem to specify the offset range at 10x.  1x looks more promising. I will try that and report back.

Well, that was interesting. Looking at exactly the same signal with the probe and channel both set to 1x, I could get on to the 500mV/div range with ok performance.

That is literally an order of magnitude better!  In this particular case, the circuit is ok with a 1x probe, so it is the way to go for now. I am still surprised ((and disappointed) by the behavior on 10x, but this is really helpful.

cheers
Doug

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on February 20, 2018, 09:04:54 am
There is no difference in specs in 1x or 10X.. it is simply x10.

Difference is because DS1000Z has an attenuator relay before first stage that switches at 500mV/div (1x). If you are at less than that, you are connected to first stage without attenuation. So your full dynamic range of input signal multiplied by first stage amplification must be less than +/- 5V used to power input amplifier..
If you are at more than 500uv/div (1x), first stage gets attenuated input and can stand it a bit better.

If you are at 10x,  switching happens at 5V/div. It so happens that it is not so good for this kind of measurement.

Offset range and the offset function have nothing to do with overdrive recovery.
Exactly..Overdrive is related to dynamic headroom of signal path.. Full P-P signal amplitude  that the signal path will let pass through it without clipping, and if it does clip, how it will recover.. Offset is to compensate for constant DC component, or just position traces on screen. Adding DC offset to clipping signal will only complicate things, making overdrive more severe and asymmetric...

Regards,

Sinisa
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on April 05, 2018, 09:03:45 pm
Can I do something wrong with the rigol ds1054z, because the RMS varies if the vertical scale varies? so be direct to the source of power as in an arduino circuit ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 05, 2018, 09:23:16 pm
The calculation is done with the data shown on screen so you have to maximize the signal to get a decent result.

ie. Vertical scale of one division on screen won't be very good.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on April 05, 2018, 11:12:43 pm
continue with the silly questions, I have a bad habit I think, crocodile clamp the floor leaving it precionando the signal hook of the probe being connected, it hurts the oscilloscope something, because that way when I press the auto button does not trigger me the channel that in that amount I'm not using.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on April 06, 2018, 01:29:05 pm
I was referring to this connection, it harms the oscilloscope.(http://subirimagen.me/uploads/20180406082823.jpg)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 06, 2018, 01:37:21 pm
I was referring to this connection, it harms the oscilloscope.

Thanks for thwe clarification. I had indeed not quite understood your prior post.

But how would this connection "harm your oscilloscope"? It is a reasonable way to ground the input. (Not perfect, due to the little inductive loop.) Personally I don't do this -- I just disable the channel on the scope if I don't want to use it, or set the input mode to ground. But I don't see why it should be bad.

I understand your prior post to say that the scope no longer triggers on that channel (or that the "Auto setup" button does not work on it?). But isn't that what you woukd expect, with no input signal due to the grounded input?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 06, 2018, 01:42:08 pm
It might harm the probe top but it won't hurt the oscilloscope.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on April 06, 2018, 01:56:56 pm
ok, thanks for your answer, because there, one acquires bad habits regarding the use of equipment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mos6502 on April 20, 2018, 08:53:09 am
Here's some measurements I took with my new DS1054Z that I received last week. I immediately unlocked it using riglol and the DSER code. Self-cal has been run. Nothing is connected to the BNC jacks. Only CH1 is active, and it's coupled to ground. But it doesn't matter which channel you select. As you can see, a 62.5MHz signal (and its harmonics) can definitely be seen. The 2nd harmonic is the strongest at around -60dBV. Good? Bad? Unacceptable? I think considering the price of the scope, it's not too horrible.

(https://i.imgur.com/k15RKrY.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/qQzGqup.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/rykvYRq.png)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 20, 2018, 09:30:15 am
I immediately unlocked it using riglol and the DSEF code.

Not sure what that code unlocks. The recommended code is DSER (ie. everything except 500mV).

Nothing is connected to the BNC jacks. Only CH1 is active, and it's coupled to ground. But it doesn't matter which channel you select. As you can see, a 62.5MHz signal (and its harmonics) can definitely be seen.

The "coupled to ground" thing isn't true.  The DS1054Z disconnects the input signal but it doesn't connect the ADC input to ground. You might get less noise with something connected (dummy BNC).

Anyway: Less than 0.5mV of noise at this price range is quite good. The 1mV range is right on the limit for a DS1054Z.

PS: 62.5MHz could be a TV signal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mos6502 on April 20, 2018, 09:47:26 am
Not sure what that code unlocks. The recommended code is DSER (ie. everything except 500mV).

Sorry, you're right, it was a typo. I used DSER. I corrected my post.

The "coupled to ground" thing isn't true.  The DS1054Z disconnects the input signal but it doesn't connect the ADC input to ground. You might get less noise with something connected (dummy BNC).

Well, that's good to know. Why would they do that? I hate these "Chinese suprises". I'll try again with the BNC shorted.

Anyway: Less than 0.5mV of noise at this price range is quite good. The 1mV range is right on the limit for a DS1054Z.

PS: 62.5MHz could be a TV signal.

I doubt that, other people (in this thread) have reported that 62.5MHz spur as well. Google "DS1000Z 62.5MHz".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mos6502 on April 20, 2018, 10:23:57 am
OK, so I did some more testing. If I short the BNC:

(https://i.imgur.com/iY1sQzO.jpg)

with the coupling set to GND, there is absolutely no difference. But if I change the coupling to DC or AC (even with the BNC shorted) the noise floor goes up. Also the voltage on the trace shows zero change when shorting the BNC. So it does look like the coupling to ground is working.

Weirdly though, now I ran the FFT with a faster time base and it looks different. The spurs are now at -80dBV? I don't know much about this HF stuff so I can't make heads or tails of this.

(https://i.imgur.com/goSFSBq.png)

In any case, that 62.5MHz signal is real, and it's coming from inside the scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 20, 2018, 10:33:24 am
OK, so I did some more testing. If I short the BNC with the coupling set to GND, there is absolutely no difference. But if I change the coupling to DC or AC (even with the BNC shorted) the noise floor goes up.

 Also the voltage on the trace shows zero change when shorting the BNC. So it does look like the coupling to ground is working.

I‘d say the first thing this shows is that your little wire loop is not working. ;-). Better use a properly shielded terminator.

But on the other hand, whatever the scope does when you select GND mode for the input, seems to be reasonably effective. I do recall posts where users have tested with proper external shortening of the input and obtained the same results, with the weak 62.5 MHz signal. So that signal seems to sneak in at a later stage of the input chain. As you already said in your first post, nothing to worry about.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mos6502 on April 20, 2018, 11:04:25 am
I‘d say the first thing this shows is that your little wire loop is not working. ;-). Better use a properly shielded terminator.


You mean a 50 Ohm terminator? I'm pretty sure my paperclip has less than 50 Ohms  ;)

But on the other hand, whatever the scope does when you select GND mode for the input, seems to be reasonably effective. I do recall posts where users have tested with proper external shortening of the input and obtained the same results, with the weak 62.5 MHz signal. So that signal seems to sneak in at a later stage of the input chain. As you already said in your first post, nothing to worry about.

Yes, definitely. I just found out that enabling the 20MHz bandwidth limiter has zero effect on the 62.5MHz signal. It's no deal breaker, as long as you don't need to look for a 62.5MHz signal with the FFT :P
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on April 20, 2018, 11:09:55 am
I‘d say the first thing this shows is that your little wire loop is not working. ;-). Better use a properly shielded terminator.
You mean a 50 Ohm terminator? I'm pretty sure my paperclip has less than 50 Ohms  ;)

That paper clip is an antenna.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 20, 2018, 11:35:20 am
That paper clip is an antenna.

Yup, that‘s what I meant. Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 20, 2018, 11:43:58 am
You mean a 50 Ohm terminator? I'm pretty sure my paperclip has less than 50 Ohms  ;)

But ... no shielding so it can pick up everything around you.

Try putting tinfoil over it.

But on the other hand, whatever the scope does when you select GND mode for the input, seems to be reasonably effective.
Yes, but people seem to expect it to work like an old analog 'scope which had a physical switch to connect the beam control to ground.

At least they didn't cheat by simply replacing the input data with digital zeros to get it "perfect".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on April 20, 2018, 01:50:25 pm
But on the other hand, whatever the scope does when you select GND mode for the input, seems to be reasonably effective.

Yes, but people seem to expect it to work like an old analog 'scope which had a physical switch to connect the beam control to ground.

At least they didn't cheat by simply replacing the input data with digital zeros to get it "perfect".

Analog oscilloscopes do not do that; they disconnect the input connector and connect the input to ground.  This also serves as the precharge function preventing damage when using AC coupling with a large DC signal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ankerwolf on May 24, 2018, 09:16:24 pm
Where exactly do you try to login? The web interface (http on port 80) does not require a login.
I could not find working credentials to access the »Networks Settings« page ./DS1000Z_NetworkSettings.html though.
...
The »Network Settings« login window reads: ...

user: rigollan
password: 111111


With the last Version 00.04.04.03.05 the login is now working with:
username: rigolan
password: 111111
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ProBang2 on May 25, 2018, 08:41:28 am

Where is a source for the new firmware?
Can´t find any...
It seems, the usual website (This (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)) only provides the old version 00.04.03.02.03.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: natman69 on May 25, 2018, 09:19:06 am
Read this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-ds1000z-00-04-04-03-05-2018-05-09-(2018-02-28)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-ds1000z-00-04-04-03-05-2018-05-09-(2018-02-28)/)

You'll find a download link in message #70. It's an edited firmware without the 'pluses' errors... ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on May 25, 2018, 03:07:01 pm
I thought Rigol released an official update?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on May 25, 2018, 03:16:59 pm

Where is a source for the new firmware?
Can´t find any...
It seems, the usual website (This (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)) only provides the old version 00.04.03.02.03.

I thought Rigol released an official update?

They did...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-ds1000z-00-04-04-03-05-2018-05-09-(2018-02-28)/msg1531235/#msg1531235 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-ds1000z-00-04-04-03-05-2018-05-09-(2018-02-28)/msg1531235/#msg1531235)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on May 25, 2018, 06:35:31 pm
Yes, well I navigated to post #70 as instructed and found a rogue ZIP file attached.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 26, 2018, 08:55:37 am
You will always* find links to the most recent firmware releases over in the DS1000Z buglist thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-buglist-continued-(from-fw-00-04-04-03-02)/).

*unless I missed something, then please PM me or comment in the thread!

Dear admins, can we have a Rigol subsection PLEASE! The stickies are all about that 121 meter and because of the clutter, we are seeing new posts about the same old DS1054z topic every couple of days. There have to be a gazillion redundant ones by now asking about the hack and firmware etc.

Can we haz subsection please?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on May 26, 2018, 09:00:11 am
Dear admins, can we have a Rigol subsection PLEASE! The stickies are all about that 121 meter and because of the clutter, we are seeing new posts about the same old DS1054z topic every couple of days. There have to be a gazillion redundant ones by now asking about the hack and firmware etc.

Can we haz subsection please?

Send a PM request to admins and CC it to Dave, as this post will be drowned into the abyss and forgotten.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jancumps on May 26, 2018, 09:31:56 am
Dear admins ...

Can we haz subsection please?

Send a PM request to admins and CC it to Dave, as this post will be drowned into the abyss and forgotten.

I’d like to keep Rigol under the current section. It sits perfectly good here with the other equipment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on May 26, 2018, 09:57:01 am

Where is a source for the new firmware?
Can´t find any...
It seems, the usual website (This (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)) only provides the old version 00.04.03.02.03.
Rigol has somewhat of a chaos with firmware updates.

There were two usual places to download firmware updates. The one you linked and

http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

However, this time they have only released new firmwares in 2018 on this page:

http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Same as the previous one, just www instead of int. The Chinese website.

Quite crazy, I hope one day they mature and at the very least they release new versions in a somewhat consistent way.  :palm:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Synthtech on May 26, 2018, 10:07:41 am
I am am pleased that they are still releasing updates at all for a product of this age. Some companies would have left well enough alone by that point and not bothered.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 26, 2018, 10:31:53 am
The stickies are all about that 121 meter

...because that's an EEVBLOG meter.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 26, 2018, 11:08:28 am
The stickies are all about that 121 meter
...because that's an EEVBLOG meter.

I’m aware of that. Might be just my personal preference to have things neatly sorted in perfectly well labeled boxes, so I can always find what I was looking for. :)
Of course that is not for me to decide here on the forums.
In terms of usability I would prefer more specific subsections to manage the clutter and keep stickies to the real important stuff (whoever is the judge of that ;) ).
Maybe also I am wrong in thinking having more subsections gets rid of most of the redundantly opened threads.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 26, 2018, 11:27:37 am
I’m aware of that. Might be just my personal preference to have things neatly sorted in perfectly well labeled boxes, so I can always find what I was looking for.

How would you find things you weren't looking for?

This is a forum, not a library.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 26, 2018, 12:33:59 pm
How would you find things you weren't looking for?

This is a forum, not a library.

Easy: "Show unread posts since last visit" is my go-to landing page :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on June 01, 2018, 11:38:28 pm

Where is a source for the new firmware?
Can´t find any...
It seems, the usual website (This (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)) only provides the old version 00.04.03.02.03.

Read this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-ds1000z-00-04-04-03-05-2018-05-09-(2018-02-28)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-ds1000z-00-04-04-03-05-2018-05-09-(2018-02-28)/)

You'll find a download link in message #70. It's an edited firmware without the 'pluses' errors... ;)

I thought Rigol released an official update?

They did...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-ds1000z-00-04-04-03-05-2018-05-09-(2018-02-28)/msg1531235/#msg1531235 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-ds1000z-00-04-04-03-05-2018-05-09-(2018-02-28)/msg1531235/#msg1531235)

Yes, well I navigated to post #70 as instructed and found a rogue ZIP file attached.

That "rogue" zip file is the official release with a helpful correction: Pulses is correctly spelled. :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on June 02, 2018, 02:51:53 am
that is a contradiction
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: phofman on July 06, 2018, 07:22:29 am
Hi guys, please is there any way to feed math results to measurement functions controlled by the left-side buttons? Typically measuring parameters of a differential signal calculated by A - B.

Thanks a lot for any hints,

Pavel.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 06, 2018, 07:44:31 am
Hi guys, please is there any way to feed math results to measurement functions controlled by the left-side buttons? Typically measuring parameters of a differential signal calculated by A - B.

Measure -> Source -> Math.

After that the items on the left will turn to the color of the math trace (purple) and you can display them.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: phofman on July 06, 2018, 08:49:14 am
Fantastic, thanks a lot!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 06, 2018, 09:01:33 am
Fantastic, thanks a lot!

It's really a user interface fail, IMHO.

When you press 'math' twice there's a little light that lights up next to the multifunction knob to let you know that the vertical controls will apply to the math trace but the measurement icons on the left don't change to match.

Note that you can also add the math values to 'Measure all':
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=470024;image)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on July 06, 2018, 05:58:45 pm
Yeah, it can be tough to pack in so much stuff with few direct-access controls. You have to build up a mental model of the various menu trees, which isn't all that user friendly. Oh the joys of modern technology. But it is cool to have so much functionality.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fleetz on August 23, 2018, 10:31:27 pm
Sorry I am sure this has been covered before and I see some threads on my quiry and I also see some contraindications which confuses.

Just purchased a secondhand DS1054Z which has had the 100MHz hack upgrade applied. Currently the firmware is reported as being 00:04:02:SP3  board is reported as 0.1.1 looking at the release notes the firmware date is 21/10/2014 (Australian date convention as all will be below)

Where I am confused is if I go to the Rigol website http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3) and go to support the latest firmware is showing as 00:04:04:03:02 dated the 2/6/2017. Now I have found another member here "Shock" post up this url as where you get the firmware update from http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) where it is shows the latest firmware is 00:04:04:03:05 dated the 28/4/2018. In the release notes of this firmware version it doesn't recognise 00:04:04:03:02???  Is "beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com" an official Rigol site, is this where the latest is at?

All the release updates up and until the variation I have listed above are the same. It is only the latest update that differs.

Looking at the release notes there are sufficient bug fixes and indeed features added that would justify in my application upgrading to the latest firmware. My current firmware is actually one version back from the infamous jitter issue which features prominently here on the forum so at least by my counting 7 possibly 8 firmware revisions behind the current.

Would appreciate those in the know letting me know what is the official Rigol latest firmware is?

Also is there any issue applying firmware updates to a hacked DS1054Z?

Cheers...

Update: Looking into the beyondmeasure.rigol.com it appears this might be a USA based Rigol location....

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gary.M on August 23, 2018, 11:07:46 pm
There's a firmware thread here somewhere with the links needed. The most recent is also available patched to change pluses into pulses.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on August 24, 2018, 01:22:39 am
Fantastic, thanks a lot!

It's really a user interface fail, IMHO.

When you press 'math' twice there's a little light that lights up next to the multifunction knob to let you know that the vertical controls will apply to the math trace but the measurement icons on the left don't change to match.

Note that you can also add the math values to 'Measure all':
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=470024;image)



How in the world did I miss Rigol's #1 DS1000z fan dissing their UI?

You can also press Math and the other 'Math' soft key to get the same effect. I had not noticed the little light next to the MF knob! But I seemed to have figured it out. That's a good tip to know.

Are you aware of other reasons for that light? I bet I could learn 300% more about this scope from you.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JS on August 24, 2018, 01:26:50 am
..
Just purchased a secondhand DS1054Z which has had the 100MHz hack upgrade applied. Currently the firmware is reported as being 00:04:02:SP3  board is reported as 0.1.1 looking at the release notes the firmware date is 21/10/2014 (Australian date convention as all will be below)

Where I am confused is if I go to the Rigol website http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3) and go to support the latest firmware is showing as 00:04:04:03:02 dated the 2/6/2017.
...

If you are confused by the versions naming, there's a way (menu-menu-force-menu in the trigger IIRC) and then go to look at the FW version again in your scope and will appear as the full code. Also shows a few other options in different parts of the scope. Turn off and on and go back to normal life.

JS
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 24, 2018, 01:32:48 am
Where I am confused is if I go to the Rigol website http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3) and go to support the latest firmware is showing as 00:04:04:03:02 dated the 2/6/2017. Now I have found another member here "Shock" post up this url as where you get the firmware update from http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) where it is shows the latest firmware is 00:04:04:03:05 dated the 28/4/2018. In the release notes of this firmware version it doesn't recognise 00:04:04:03:02???  Is "beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com" an official Rigol site, is this where the latest is at?

All the release updates up and until the variation I have listed above are the same. It is only the latest update that differs.

Yeah, Rigol isn't very good about keeping their sites in sync, nor the level of detail of their release notes. The latest version is 00:04:04:03:05 and there's a thread about it at https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-ds1000z-00-04-04-03-05-2018-05-09-(2018-02-28)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-ds1000z-00-04-04-03-05-2018-05-09-(2018-02-28)/)

Forum member janekivi fixed the "Pluses" typo to "Pulses" in his mod of this version and linked to it in post #70 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-ds1000z-00-04-04-03-05-2018-05-09-(2018-02-28)/msg1544420/#msg1544420) of that thread.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fleetz on August 24, 2018, 04:40:40 am
..
Just purchased a secondhand DS1054Z which has had the 100MHz hack upgrade applied. Currently the firmware is reported as being 00:04:02:SP3  board is reported as 0.1.1 looking at the release notes the firmware date is 21/10/2014 (Australian date convention as all will be below)

Where I am confused is if I go to the Rigol website http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3) and go to support the latest firmware is showing as 00:04:04:03:02 dated the 2/6/2017.
...

If you are confused by the versions naming, there's a way (menu-menu-force-menu in the trigger IIRC) and then go to look at the FW version again in your scope and will appear as the full code. Also shows a few other options in different parts of the scope. Turn off and on and go back to normal life.

JS

Thanks for your and all other member help to date.....appreciated.

Here is the status when the menu>menu>force>menu is performed. (see image below)

I saw in some earlier post that doing an update with bootloaders 0.0.1.3 and earlier cause an issue and some scope were bricked. I believe this was with earlier firmware updates, can anyone confirm if the latest F/W update v00:04:04:03:05 has address the earlier bootloader version update issue and in particular the bootloader version I have of 0.0.1.2??

I only saw a couple of mentions of an issue and it seems v00:04:04:03:05 is working OK with recent members post however they didn't state what version bootloader they had on their system. If someone can confirm a successful update from the 0.0.1.2 bootloader that would give me some wonderful warm fuzzies! :)

Thanks again for all your input!

Cheers,

Update: The modified v00:04:04:03:05 zip file fixing the "Pluses" and "Pulses" " typo mentioned that member janekivi posted link is now broken.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on August 24, 2018, 05:45:53 am
I made a comment on one of these threads that I was suspect of that rogue FW. Maybe it is just as bitseeker says.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 06:17:02 am
I have found another member here "Shock" post up this url as where you get the firmware update from http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) where it is shows the latest firmware is 00:04:04:03:05 dated the 28/4/2018.

Correct.

Would appreciate those in the know letting me know what is the official Rigol latest firmware is?

Up there^

Also is there any issue applying firmware updates to a hacked DS1054Z?

No.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 06:21:04 am
How in the world did I miss Rigol's #1 DS1000z fan dissing their UI?

I've dissed the UI on many occasions.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on August 24, 2018, 06:53:08 am
There is a certain level of integrity in that, I mean in contrast, ya know...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2018, 09:14:56 am
I like to think I only add balance to the people who diss the entire device.

The difference between owning a scope/not owning a 'scope is like night vs. day.

The difference between owning a Rigol or something that (until very recently) cost three times as much? Not as much as the Rigol haters would like people who come here looking for buying advice to believe.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Gary.M on August 25, 2018, 05:23:26 am
"I saw in some earlier post that doing an update with bootloaders 0.0.1.3 and earlier cause an issue and some scope were bricked. I believe this was with earlier firmware updates, can anyone confirm if the latest F/W update v00:04:04:03:05 has address the earlier bootloader version update issue and in particular the bootloader version I have of 0.0.1.2??"

My scope had a bootloader and revision that suggested it would be prone to that bug but I have been able to update without trouble. I am currently on the patched version mentioned above and all is well.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fleetz on August 25, 2018, 05:35:31 am
"I saw in some earlier post that doing an update with bootloaders 0.0.1.3 and earlier cause an issue and some scope were bricked. I believe this was with earlier firmware updates, can anyone confirm if the latest F/W update v00:04:04:03:05 has address the earlier bootloader version update issue and in particular the bootloader version I have of 0.0.1.2??"

My scope had a bootloader and revision that suggested it would be prone to that bug but I have been able to update without trouble. I am currently on the patched version mentioned above and all is well.

Thanks Gary...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Supernick on September 05, 2018, 04:34:26 pm
Hello, all

If i unlock 100MHz bandwidth in my new 1054z then warranty is void. Why? Device will be work in a tense mode? Will be overheat? Or etc..
 
How it does affect to the hardware?

Thx
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 05, 2018, 04:49:03 pm
The warranty may be void. Whether or not it would be is a legal matter, which could be country-specific and may or may not coincide with what's written in the manufacturer's warranty stipulations.

Enabling 100MHz does not make the scope do anything it isn't designed to do already. It simply enables functionality that is turned on by default on the DS1104Z, but was disabled on the DS1054Z.

However, keep in mind that Rigol does not sell a bandwidth upgrade key for the DS1054Z. So, if something else on the scope has a problem that requires you to send it in for warranty service, they may have something to say about the "unofficial" upgrade or they may not. If the scope is still working, you can remove the upgrade before sending it in.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Supernick on September 05, 2018, 05:04:50 pm


Enabling 100MHz does not make the scope do anything it isn't designed to do already. It simply enables functionality that is turned on by default on the DS1104Z, but was disabled on the DS1054Z.


Thx

So.. unlock is better or without effect?

1104 & 1054 have a identic hardware?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2018, 05:07:04 pm
If i unlock 100MHz bandwidth in my new 1054z then warranty is void.

Says who? All you did was push buttons on the front panel.

Will be overheat?

No. Everything is the same internally.

PS: It's very easy to relock it again, no traces left.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Supernick on September 05, 2018, 05:29:51 pm
Hmm.. but Rigol knows about it.
It is simple and fast! But 1054 have a cost 350$, however 1104z - 600!!! Why??  |O

Rigol is stupid?

Buy 1104z is meaningless..


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2018, 05:32:13 pm
Hmm.. but Rigol knows about it.
It is simple and fast! But 1054 have a cost 350$, however 1104z - 600!!! Why??  |O

Rigol is stupid?

Some companies, Universities, etc. will not unlock and pay that much, so why not ask?

PS: DS1104Z with all options used to cost over $1000, the options cost more than the DS1054Z(!)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nanofrog on September 05, 2018, 05:33:46 pm
Hmm.. but Rigol knows about it.
It is simple and fast! But 1054 have a cost 350$, however 1104z - 600!!! Why??  |O

Rigol is stupid?

Buy 1104z is meaningless..
Depends.

For an individual using it for personal use (hobbyist), sure. A startup for example OTOH, not so much as they're under a lot more scrutiny to make sure they're keeping everything above board/legal so to speak.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on September 05, 2018, 05:36:42 pm
Hmm.. but Rigol knows about it.
It is simple and fast! But 1054 have a cost 350$, however 1104z - 600!!! Why??  |O

Rigol is stupid?

Buy 1104z is meaningless..

Trust us, DO NOT hack it,its not worth your sleep, your nerves, you will getting very stress and feel sinful.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2018, 05:40:18 pm
Hmm.. but Rigol knows about it.

Rigol not only knows about it, they designed it that way. It's part of their sales strategy.

Notice that the MSO versions of the DS1054Z are not unlockable using Rigol. The version with the signal generator is not unlockable with Riglol, etc.

They know they will sell a lot more oscilloscopes to hobby users if features are easy to unlock.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Supernick on September 05, 2018, 05:42:28 pm
Universities buy's oscilloscopes on eBay?  :)

Thats prices from eBye. For all.. hobbyst or no

Just weird
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Supernick on September 05, 2018, 05:58:07 pm
I'm just worried about the fact that it can be damaged on the larger bandwidth.

may be input amplifier will be overheat or ADC or etc (on larger frequrencies) and radiator is not installed for 1054 modification or other ..


I just do not believe in miracles  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on September 05, 2018, 06:08:27 pm
I'm just worried about the fact that it can be damaged on the larger bandwidth.

may be input amplifier will be overheat or ADC or etc (on larger frequrencies) and radiator is not installed for 1054 modification or other ..


I just do not believe in miracles  :-//

I guess you keep asking and doubting again and again, its clear you just want answer that what ever you wanted to hear.

Fungus already helped you, and in this forum here, especially in this DS1054Z matter, I believe that he knows what he is talking, and that include alot of hundreds or even thousands of DS1054Z owners that hacked the scope up to 100MHz.

Remember, you still don't own it, and I guess never used it too, so stop pretending that you know better than most of us DS1054Z owners here.

You're on your own and suggesting DO NOT buy it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 05, 2018, 06:09:06 pm
I'm just worried about the fact that it can be damaged on the larger bandwidth.

may be input amplifier will be overheat or ADC or etc (on larger frequrencies) and radiator is not installed for 1054 modification or other ..

I just do not believe in miracles  :-//

The unlocked Rigols do not perform like good 100 MHz oscilloscopes should but damage due to a larger bandwidth is not a concern.

I like Fungus' hypothesis about why they are unlockable while the others are not.  If Rigol was voiding warranties because these oscilloscopes were unlocked by the user, I think we would have heard of it by now.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Supernick on September 05, 2018, 06:31:09 pm

can someone give a link where there is a comparison: before unlocking and after? or comparison of entrails

I already purchased the device. And I do not want to break it or lose the warranty. To open too it would not be desirable for self check. The case is sealed by sticker

ps. a man of the intellect is inclined to doubt  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 05, 2018, 06:38:03 pm
I'm just worried about the fact that it can be damaged on the larger bandwidth.

may be input amplifier will be overheat or ADC or etc (on larger frequrencies) and radiator is not installed for 1054 modification or other ..


I just do not believe in miracles  :-//

You don't have to believe us, although you did ask us. And now you have multiple answers that are all in agreement without any miracles occurring.

If you're not comfortable unlocking the 100 MHz bandwidth, either buy a DS1054Z and don't unlock it or buy a DS1104Z if you want 100 MHz without unlocking. You could also buy some other brand of scope. It's your choice. Enjoy the power of your newly found freedom.


can someone give a link where there is a comparison: before unlocking and after? or comparison of entrails

I already purchased the device. And I do not want to break it or lose the warranty. To open too it would not be desirable for self check. The case is sealed by sticker

ps. a man of the intellect is inclined to doubt  :)

Use the forum search. There is much information.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Supernick on September 05, 2018, 06:51:43 pm

just apparently no one really knows .. but still thanks for the answers

in life everything is not easy and everything has its causes and consequences
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 05, 2018, 06:53:52 pm
Did Dave's teardown and semi reverse engineer of the front end use an 1104 or 1054? Somehow it was always established in my mind the hardware is exactly the same and these are software only enabled features (except the 500uV vert sensitivity).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 05, 2018, 06:56:57 pm
ps. a man of the intellect is inclined to doubt  :)

...while others breed ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 05, 2018, 07:28:31 pm
Did Dave's teardown and semi reverse engineer of the front end use an 1104 or 1054? Somehow it was always established in my mind the hardware is exactly the same and these are software only enabled features (except the 500uV vert sensitivity).

DS1054Z

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJVrTV_BeGg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJVrTV_BeGg)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2018, 08:06:09 pm
just apparently no one really knows ..

Sure we do, we have the circuit diagrams to prove it. Dave even did a video on it:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-675-how-to-reverse-engineer-a-rigol-ds1054z/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-675-how-to-reverse-engineer-a-rigol-ds1054z/)

Nothing is overclocked, nothing will heat up, nothing bad will happen. The only change is that a low-pass filter is removed from the input.

The unlocked Rigols do not perform like good 100 MHz oscilloscopes should

That's complete rubbish. An unlocked Rigol behaves exactly like a DS1104Z (which is a good oscilloscope).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2018, 08:15:45 pm
may be input amplifier will be overheat or ADC or etc (on larger frequrencies)

There are no "larger frequencies". The ADC sample rate is the same on both models (1Ghz).

(and everything else)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 05, 2018, 08:43:55 pm
The unlocked Rigols do not perform like good 100 MHz oscilloscopes should

That's complete rubbish. An unlocked Rigol behaves exactly like a DS1104Z (which is a good oscilloscope).

It seems he was actually saying that Rigol scopes do not perform like good scopes should.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 05, 2018, 09:16:04 pm
How _should_ a "good" 100MHz scope perform, then?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on September 05, 2018, 09:21:54 pm
How _should_ a "good" 100MHz scope perform, then?
Measure on the main window, not on the zoom !
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mechatrommer on September 05, 2018, 11:43:38 pm
The unlocked Rigols do not perform like good 100 MHz oscilloscopes should
That's complete rubbish. An unlocked Rigol behaves exactly like a DS1104Z (which is a good oscilloscope).

It seems he was actually saying that Rigol scopes do not perform like good scopes should.
return the rigol, buy keysight. I believe its a good scope with a good money (price)... if someone expect bettle car performs like ferrarri, then just buy ferrarri.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2018, 12:02:22 am
That's complete rubbish. An unlocked Rigol behaves exactly like a DS1104Z (which is a good oscilloscope).
It seems he was actually saying that Rigol scopes do not perform like good scopes should.

And I was correcting him.  :popcorn:

(obviously there's more expensive 'scopes available and you'd hope to get something for yur money but that doesn't make a Rigols a bad oscilloscope)

if someone expect bettle car performs like ferrarri, then just buy ferrarri.

Don't expect to get a Ferrari for 40% more money than a beetle. Ferraris cost a lot more than that. For 40% more you just get a beetle with metallic paint and a chrome exhaust.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 06, 2018, 12:34:12 am
How _should_ a "good" 100MHz scope perform, then?
Measure on the main window, not on the zoom !

I'm wondering how that matters to me, that Rigol measures screen data, along with there only being 7 bits shown on the screen. I guess I should be able to figure that out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JS on September 06, 2018, 12:49:28 am
How _should_ a "good" 100MHz scope perform, then?
Measure on the main window, not on the zoom !

I'm wondering how that matters to me, that Rigol measures screen data, along with there only being 7 bits shown on the screen. I guess I should be able to figure that out.
I don't think there's a difference either, the scope is sampling at 1GSa/s

The difference in the 100MHz could be the noise, I haven't tested with mine... but having the 20MHz BW limit would only make this important while measuring 20 to 50 MHz BW signals.

JS
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 06, 2018, 03:50:32 am
The unlocked Rigols do not perform like good 100 MHz oscilloscopes should

That's complete rubbish. An unlocked Rigol behaves exactly like a DS1104Z (which is a good oscilloscope).

We have discussed this before and I have pointed out two examples from different users which have the same problem.  That may not seem like enough but it was *all* of the users who actually ran the needed test.

The hacked ones display symptoms of non-linearity on fast edges which varies depending on vertical sensitivity.  5+ nanoseconds of overload recovery after a fast edge is not consistent with the 3.5 nanosecond transition time of a 100MHz oscilloscope.  This is likely related to the bandwidth measurements which vary significantly at different vertical sensitivities presumably due to insufficient full power bandwidth.  In an operational amplifier, this would be due to slew rate limiting which produces the same problem.  In this case I suspect one of the amplifier stages is being driven into saturation or cutoff by the fast edge which is not quite surprising given what we know of the design from Dave.

What is unknown is if the DS1104Z 100MHz model and unhacked DS1054Z 50MHz model display the same behavior.  The DS1054Z should not because of its 50MHz bandwidth limit.  Maybe Rigol selects or grades the DS1104Z for proper operation but if it displays the same problem, then it also does not operate like a good 100MHz oscilloscope.

So when I say that the hacked 50MHz DS1054Z does not act like a good 100MHz oscilloscope should, I mean it is not performing like any oscilloscope with a 100MHz bandwidth should.  On the other hand, unless the oscilloscope is used to measure bandwidth limited edges, the user should never notice this problem.  But why bother hacking a 50MHz DS1054Z to 100MHz if the extra bandwidth is not going to be taken advantage of?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on September 06, 2018, 04:00:29 am

just apparently no one really knows .. but still thanks for the answers

in life everything is not easy and everything has its causes and consequences
:palm:

Yes, we do know, and it’s been explained to you repeatedly.

No, we aren’t going into more detail because the answers to your residual/repeat questions already exist in the forum.

But seriously, stop being a smartass and accept that the DS1054Z has been out for years, and that nearly everyone who has one has hacked it, and that there are no reports of damage (or malfunction) due to the hack.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 06, 2018, 04:12:06 am
How _should_ a "good" 100MHz scope perform, then?
Measure on the main window, not on the zoom !

I'm wondering how that matters to me, that Rigol measures screen data, along with there only being 7 bits shown on the screen. I guess I should be able to figure that out.

What, someone doesn't think the zoom window is telling the truth? Or is telling less truth than the unzoomed screen? Other than being compressed vertically?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2018, 11:19:13 am
This thread has lost the plot.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on September 06, 2018, 12:33:57 pm
This thread has lost the plot.  :popcorn:

The thread title is a bit misleading now too - it's not new anymore (the thread was started in 2014).  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2018, 12:36:07 pm
What is unknown is if the DS1104Z 100MHz model and unhacked DS1054Z 50MHz model display the same behavior. 

No it isn't.

You know the hardware is identical, right?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 06, 2018, 12:44:37 pm
But seriously, stop being a smartass and accept that the DS1054Z has been out for years, and that nearly everyone who has one has hacked it, and that there are no reports of damage (or malfunction) due to the hack.

Scope is solid. Only reports are of user brain malfunction & damage to neural network due to shocking & unexpected visual phenomenon rendered on screen :-BROKE From other thread:

Really. I though I had got insane when I tried Leo Bodnar's pulse generator.

I own both a Siglent SDS1202X-E and a Rigol DS1074Z. The Siglent did the right thing. The Rigol still added some interpolation in dots mode.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2018, 01:06:44 pm
Scope is solid.

Yep.

Really. I though I had got insane when I tried Leo Bodnar's pulse generator.

The Rigol still added some interpolation in dots mode.

Yes, it's true. You have to go to extraordinary lengths to find even the tiniest problem.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 06, 2018, 01:10:53 pm
Most probably sin(x)/x was on when testing, or some other acquisition settings were different between the two 'scopes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2018, 01:20:04 pm
Most probably sin(x)/x was on when testing, or some other acquisition settings were different between the two 'scopes.

sin(x)/x is my guess, too. Turn it off if you don't like it.

Borjam's claim that "dots should be samples" is just an unfounded assumption on his part.

PS: Who looks at pulse generators in dot mode anyway?  You can't calculate rise times from dots. :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bugi on September 06, 2018, 01:28:38 pm
Not invested in Rigols in any way, it may be easier for me to throw some counter-arguments in, since however those things work out, it won't affect me...

Fungus, you leave counter-argumenting too easy:

What is unknown is if the DS1104Z 100MHz model and unhacked DS1054Z 50MHz model display the same behavior. 
No it isn't.
That is a claim, but all I have seen so far are assumptions (based on the models using the same hardware). Thus, unless you can provide/link to proofs (measurements, not just assumptions), it is nothing more than educated guess. (Which could be right, though. I'd make the same guess on their behavior, but I would not claim it is "known", per se, without something to back it up.)

At least David Hess has tried get to facts (real measurements) to test the assumption of that earlier case. Due to the small set of results, reliability could be low, but then again, the measurement results to show otherwise had even smaller set :P

If the hacks are so common as some claim, and reverting the hack also claimed to be easy, and those Rigol scopes as popular as some others claim, it should be trivial to get quite a few more results to prove both cases one way or another. (Well, I didn't look what kind of measurement David Hess was looking for, maybe those are not as trivial.)

Quote
You know the hardware is identical, right?
You know the identical hardware is being used ever so slightly differently in those two models, right? (Edit: And I think that identical hardware does not need more proving. Merely pointing here to that usage difference.)

Sorry if that all sounds a bit like  :popcorn: ... it is a bit of that, but also a bit of my desire to see facts and good explanations instead of the typical internet opinions and assumptions. There is too much latter all over the places.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 06, 2018, 01:28:55 pm
How _should_ a "good" 100MHz scope perform, then?
Measure on the main window, not on the zoom !

I'm wondering how that matters to me, that Rigol measures screen data, along with there only being 7 bits shown on the screen. I guess I should be able to figure that out.

What, someone doesn't think the zoom window is telling the truth? Or is telling less truth than the unzoomed screen? Other than being compressed vertically?

At the moment, I'm not sure if one screen is zoomed or the other is compressed. I don't understand why you would rather make a measurement on the compressed screen data, which surely will have much fewer datapoints than the zoomed window.

I'm also trying to understand exactly what David is explaining above, so I provided my interpretation of what a good trace would look like, and the region where the Rigol is not good...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 06, 2018, 01:35:32 pm
You know the identical hardware is being used ever so slightly differently in those two models, right?

Sorry if that all sounds a bit like  :popcorn: ... it is a bit of that, but also a bit of my desire to see facts and good explanations instead of the typical internet opinions and assumptions. There is too much latter all over the place.

Aren't you making the same baseless claim, and really adding nothing of what you want to the discussion?

I'm not at all interested in the 1054 vs 1104 debate. Who cares? All that matters is the absolute performance of the instrument, so we don't need to compare the 1104 unicorn, almost nobody has one anyway.

BTW, all things considered, too...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bugi on September 06, 2018, 02:51:26 pm
You know the identical hardware is being used ever so slightly differently in those two models, right?

Sorry if that all sounds a bit like  :popcorn: ... it is a bit of that, but also a bit of my desire to see facts and good explanations instead of the typical internet opinions and assumptions. There is too much latter all over the place.
Aren't you making the same baseless claim, and really adding nothing of what you want to the discussion?
If referring that first part you quoted above, then with that particular part I was not expecting Fungus to prove his previous sentence, I was pointing out the mistake that he is showing only relying on identical hardware -idea, leaving out the different usage. Thus, some of the assumptions, based only on the identical hardware, may not necessarily be valid. (On my claim of different usage: If the hardware is identical, it must be used differently; this is pure logical deduction, otherwise the models would behave exactly the same way with bandwidth as is, and no bandwidth hacks would be needed. I think Fungus knows all that, but just didn't consider it in this context.)  (Lets see if I can modify the earlier message to clarify a bit... Done.)

Also, indeed I am not trying to add any Rigol facts to discussion, I'm merely pointing that if there is an argument going, the parties should try to provide more info (not necessarily instantly), especially if the other side has some measurements or other provable facts (potentially) showing otherwise.

Otherwise things end easily like in my mind: one side refers to earlier measurements showing a potential difference, another side replies with "nonsense, identical hardware", and I get to think "what kind of answer is that, the 'identical hardware' doesn't even consider different usage of the hardware, which could explain something, and even if different usage was considered and somehow ending with idea that the scopes should behave exactly the same, the different measurement results (contradiction of another assumption) should still be explained somehow, even if found out to be just user error."

Quote
I'm not at all interested in the 1054 vs 1104 debate. Who cares? All that matters is the absolute performance of the instrument, so we don't need to compare the 1104 unicorn, almost nobody has one anyway.
You might not be interested on it (and maybe not many others, either), but since it is out there and fungus replied, I tried to point on the weaknesses on Fungus' arguments, in the hopes that something more solid might appear. If nothing happens, no big deal.

Also note that David Hess' question is not a comparison between 1104 and 1054, but comparison between hacked 1054 and both unhacked models. Getting results just from the unhacked 1054 would already be an improvement to the situation. And he has noted the possibility of that (minor) deficiency on that "absolute performance" of the hacked 1054, so that question should then be of interest to you, too, though not necessarily a major interest.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 06, 2018, 03:29:49 pm
What is unknown is if the DS1104Z 100MHz model and unhacked DS1054Z 50MHz model display the same behavior.

No it isn't.

You know the hardware is identical, right?

We know the design is the same or at least I assume it is.  We do not know if Rigol grades or selects them.

I was surprised to discover that in the 1980s, Tektronix was grading 2N3904 transistors for low collector-base time constant (high bandwidth) and using just those transistors in their 100MHz oscilloscopes although not in the vertical signal path.  It just seems strange to bother grading such cheap transistors but maybe they found some economic advantage.

I doubt Rigol is grading 2N3904s before assembly although they are using them as part of the vertical preamplifier but instead they could be grading the DSOs as complete units and only selling the best performing ones as 100MHz DS1104Zs.  This is something I would consider if I was using 2N3904s which are marginal for 100MHz operation.

Most probably sin(x)/x was on when testing, or some other acquisition settings were different between the two 'scopes.

sin(x)/x is my guess, too. Turn it off if you don't like it.

Borjam's claim that "dots should be samples" is just an unfounded assumption on his part.

There have been complaints before that Rigol's sin(x)/x interpolation does not place the interpolated trace on the sample points.  If this is the case, then I suspect truncation in order to speed up the math is the problem.  The curve produced by sin(x)/x interpolation should overlap every sample point.

Quote
PS: Who looks at pulse generators in dot mode anyway?  You can't calculate rise times from dots. :-//

You can with a histogram and enough dots.

If the hacks are so common as some claim, and reverting the hack also claimed to be easy, and those Rigol scopes as popular as some others claim, it should be trivial to get quite a few more results to prove both cases one way or another. (Well, I didn't look what kind of measurement David Hess was looking for, maybe those are not as trivial.)

The measurement itself is trivial with a flat top reference pulse generator which most users lack but the interpretation may not be.  These types of pulse generators are used for transient response calibration and verification.

An unhacked 50MHz DS1054Z should be checked for overload from the fast edge which is something we have observed in the hacked 100MHz DS1054Z DSOs.  There is a good chance it will not show a problem because of its 50MHz maximum bandwidth.

A hacked 100MHz DS1054Z should be compared to a 100MHz DS1104Z.  Interpreting this should be much easier since it is a comparison of supposedly identically performing DSOs.  If the 100MHz DS1104Z shows signs of overload from the fast edge, then maybe they do perform identically but that indicates nothing good about the DS1104Z.

I'm also trying to understand exactly what David is explaining above, so I provided my interpretation of what a good trace would look like, and the region where the Rigol is not good...

That looks like a different problem if it is one.  The change in slope from negative to positive indicates that if there was an overload, the amplifier has recovered by the time you indicate.  I kept a copy of the photograph where I first noticed it shown below. 

It would be practically impossible for improper transient response calibration to produce that response (it should be wavy instead of straight) and it is way too fast for it to be a thermal tail.  It does look like the result of overload due to exceeding the maximum slew rate of a linear amplifier driving a transistor into cutoff or saturation.

I did not think much of it until I saw a second example and a user took measurements of bandwidth versus vertical sensitivity which showed something was going on.  The same problem could cause both behaviors.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 06, 2018, 03:34:53 pm
If referring that first part you quoted above, then with that particular part I was not expecting Fungus to prove his previous sentence, I was pointing out the mistake that he is showing only relying on identical hardware -idea, leaving out the different usage. Thus, some of the assumptions, based only on the identical hardware, may not necessarily be valid. (On my claim of different usage: If the hardware is identical, it must be used differently; this is pure logical deduction, otherwise the models would behave exactly the same way with bandwidth as is, and no bandwidth hacks would be needed. I think Fungus knows all that, but just didn't consider it in this context.)  (Lets see if I can modify the earlier message to clarify a bit... Done.)


But I do not agree that the hardware is being used differently at all. Generally, there are simply limits placed in software to stop a parameter setting from going beyond a certain constant value. The hack likely just changes those constants from one value to another. For example, software limit the sweep speed setting. I see no way to deduce that a 1054, a 1054 hacked, and an 1104 ALL set to the identical user settings would be 'being used differently.' That seems nonsensical, but perhaps you could fabricate an example for discussion to provoke some open thought?

Quote
Also, indeed I am not trying to add any Rigol facts to discussion, I'm merely pointing that if there is an argument going, the parties should try to provide more info (not necessarily instantly), especially if the other side has some measurements or other provable facts (potentially) showing otherwise.

Otherwise things end easily like in my mind: one side refers to earlier measurements showing a potential difference, another side replies with "nonsense, identical hardware", and I get to think "what kind of answer is that, the 'identical hardware' doesn't even consider different usage of the hardware, which could explain something, and even if different usage was considered and somehow ending with idea that the scopes should behave exactly the same, the different measurement results (contradiction of another assumption) should still be explained somehow, even if found out to be just user error."

You might clarify what you mean by different useage of hardware. Application of the tool by the user or how the instrument firmware 'uses' the instrument hardware?

The argument I am considering is from David:

"The hacked ones display symptoms of non-linearity on fast edges which varies depending on vertical sensitivity.  5+ nanoseconds of overload recovery after a fast edge is not consistent with the 3.5 nanosecond transition time of a [good] 100MHz oscilloscope.  This is likely related to the bandwidth measurements which vary significantly at different vertical sensitivities presumably due to insufficient full power bandwidth.  In an operational amplifier, this would be due to slew rate limiting which produces the same problem.  In this case I suspect one of the amplifier stages is being driven into saturation or cutoff by the fast edge which is not quite surprising given what we know of the design from Dave."

I posted a response to Alsetalokin with imagery to try and clarify the symptom, for me anyway. I'm sure plenty here don't need that clarification, but I do. And to that point, once the symptom is clear we can take a closer look.


Quote
You might not be interested on it [1054 vs. 1104] (and maybe not many others, either), but since it is out there and fungus replied, I tried to point on the weaknesses on Fungus' arguments, in the hopes that something more solid might appear. If nothing happens, no big deal.

Also note that David Hess' question is not a comparison between 1104 and 1054, but comparison between hacked 1054 and both unhacked models. Getting results just from the unhacked 1054 would already be an improvement to the situation. And he has noted the possibility of that (minor) deficiency on that "absolute performance" of the hacked 1054, so that question should then be of interest to you, too, though not necessarily a major interest.

I'm not getting your point, especially the bold part. My take is David is comparing data he's seen from hacked 1054 to to his perception or experience with "good" scopes. I would like to understand the performance differences more clearely, and their ramifications.

Here's the point why it does not matter to compare hacked 1054 to 1104. If hacked 1054 performs as expected (as a good 100 MHz scope), then there is realistically no reasonable expectation that an 1104 is going to be any better than a good scope, so why bother.

Now, since comparing a hacked 1054 to unhacked 1054 is easy and readily available, what test setup and measurement will best issultrate the deficiencies? I'm sure we cannot just compare rise times, for example, but perhaps there is something in the transient response we could look for. I assume a test like that is conducted with the sweep speed set to the same value when testing the edge, however?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on September 06, 2018, 03:41:06 pm
Own DS1104Z and had a loaner unit friend's DS1054Z for a while back then at my bench.

Although I didn't take any documetation, tested with pulse generator with flat top, both hacked 1054Z and 1104Z had identical results.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=264395;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 06, 2018, 03:45:20 pm
That looks like a different problem if it is one.  The change in slope from negative to positive indicates that if there was an overload, the amplifier has recovered by the time you indicate.  I kept a copy of the photograph where I first noticed it shown below. 

It would be practically impossible for improper transient response calibration to produce that response (it should be wavy instead of straight) and it is way too fast for it to be a thermal tail.  It does look like the result of overload due to exceeding the maximum slew rate of a linear amplifier driving a transistor into cutoff or saturation.

I did not think much of it until I saw a second example and a user took measurements of bandwidth versus vertical sensitivity which showed something was going on.  The same problem could cause both behaviors.

Thanks for that, David. I think that is from a YT video. I do not recall what he was using to generate the edge. I had posted some images of mercury switch generated edge - will be challenging to find.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on September 06, 2018, 03:49:15 pm
A hacked 100MHz DS1054Z should be compared to a 100MHz DS1104Z.  Interpreting this should be much easier since it is a comparison of supposedly identically performing DSOs.  If the 100MHz DS1104Z shows signs of overload from the fast edge, then maybe they do perform identically but that indicates nothing good about the DS1104Z.

What about testing a 100MHz DS1104Z against another 100MHz DS1104Z ? Shouldn't it be considered also in these "scientific" analyses?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 06, 2018, 03:57:09 pm
I had posted some images of mercury switch generated edge - will be challenging to find.

Wasn't hard. First was a charged capacitor and fast switch. I do not recall what I was doing on the second, but probably something similar with different triggering. What should I be looking for?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=264567;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=264845;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bugi on September 06, 2018, 04:39:09 pm
If referring that first part you quoted above, then with that particular part I was not expecting Fungus to prove his previous sentence, I was pointing out the mistake that he is showing only relying on identical hardware -idea, leaving out the different usage. Thus, some of the assumptions, based only on the identical hardware, may not necessarily be valid. (On my claim of different usage: If the hardware is identical, it must be used differently; this is pure logical deduction, otherwise the models would behave exactly the same way with bandwidth as is, and no bandwidth hacks would be needed. I think Fungus knows all that, but just didn't consider it in this context.)  (Lets see if I can modify the earlier message to clarify a bit... Done.)
But I do not agree that the hardware is being used differently at all. Generally, there are simply limits placed in software to stop a parameter setting from going beyond a certain constant value. The hack likely just changes those constants from one value to another. For example, software limit the sweep speed setting. I see no way to deduce that a 1054, a 1054 hacked, and an 1104 ALL set to the identical user settings would be 'being used differently.' That seems nonsensical, but perhaps you could fabricate an example for discussion to provoke some open thought?
Hmm.. I had made an assumption there myself, that of the different bandwidth models actually having different (analog) bandwidth and/or rise times (in the front end path). Which, afaik, requires, for example (might have more to it), hardware low pass filter being enabled/disabled/adjusted in the hardware (via software control on the basis of the model), thus my idea of "hardware used differently". (Put in other words: both models having the filters there = "same hardware"; one disabling a piece of it = "used differently".)
Perhaps an example test which would counter that idea: Does the unhacked "50MHz" Rigol have the same analog bandwidth and rise time as the "100MHz" model (and/or the hacked version)? That is, e.g. feeding in a slow signal sweep from 25MHz to near Nyquist to each model, if the hardware is the same and used identically, the results should be the same (within unit-to-unit tolerances), if the settings are the same (for setting values that are available in both models).

I guess they could do software side DSP filtering instead, but at least closer to Nyquist (let alone above that) it might be challenging, and leaves the ADC vulnerable to full unattenuated aliasing, and with unnecessarily wide noise bandwidth.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 06, 2018, 05:16:05 pm
Wasn't hard. First was a charged capacitor and fast switch. I do not recall what I was doing on the second, but probably something similar with different triggering. What should I be looking for?

Look for cause why scope which clearly does not have actual 200MHz analog frontend reports such rise time ;) 0.35/1.65ns=0.212GHz
Plotting amplitude response graph to sinusoidal signal sweep might give some clues.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on September 06, 2018, 05:56:09 pm
To add more to the confusion, here are some screenshots of my "liberated" 1054Z, fed with a signal from a Leo Bodnar fast edge square generator through a 50R BNC terminator to channel 1 (the other channels perform identical). The scope was configured in dot mode and fine vertical control. The single input divider relay of the DS1000Z switches between 330 and 335mV/div and this makes a big difference: at 335mV selection, the input amplifier "sees" much less signal and the VGA integrated in the A/D converter is adjusted at high gain. I kept that as a reference trace while I changed input sensitivity to 330mV, resulting in the input amp being driven with a much larger signal. The trace shapes and rise times differ by more than 1ns, but both appear to be well within the 100MHz range.

I also took a reading at 250MSa/s. Funny enough, the input divider relay is now actuated between 250 and 245mV/div. The difference of the rise time between the two settings now is neglible but something ugly goes on with the sin(X)/x trace reconstruction. It becomes obvious that even in dot mode (not only vector display), the 'scope uses this correction function (or something else...maybe a high pass filter to compensate for the input amp's high frequency dropoff) to modify the data readings. Unfortunately, the sin(x)/x "optimization" can only be disabled at 250MSa/s so it's difficult to get a better understanding of what kind of mathematical methods are used (see the third and fourth screenshots).

One may say Rigal is "cheating" in the DS1000Z, and strictly speaking that's probably correct. But what difference does it make for the average hobby user working on audio or low-speed microcontroller stuff? I guess the result is still good enough for the job, if something better is really necessary, the options are plentiful.

Are there any differences between the DS1054Z and DS1104Z models hardware-wise? Possible, but I doubt it. The instrument is too inexpensive for the manufacturer to go through the hassle of component or instrument selection.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2018, 06:09:45 pm
We know the design is the same or at least I assume it is.  We do not know if Rigol grades or selects them.

Lots of people have tried to find a difference over the years, all have failed.

(And there's absolutely no reason to think they're using borderline components that might go one way or the other during manufacturing).

A hacked 100MHz DS1054Z should be compared to a 100MHz DS1104Z.

It's been done several times over the years and no difference found.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2018, 06:18:21 pm
I also took a reading at 250MSa/s. Funny enough, the input divider relay is now actuated between 250 and 245mV/div. The difference of the rise time between the two settings now is neglible but something ugly goes on with the sin(X)/x trace reconstruction. It becomes obvious that even in dot mode (not only vector display), the 'scope uses this correction function (or something else...

Yep, looks like sin(x)/x is being applied to the dots.

Maybe it's just an artifact of the way the FPGA passes the data to the display - ie. if sin(x)/x is enabled then it applies to all data types.

You could argue that it's incorrect, but I could argue that the displayed signal is more correct due to interpolation.

At a practical level, the only "problem" I can see with this is that it prevents the volt-heads from fully characterizing the front end at 1GSample/sec.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 06, 2018, 06:44:49 pm
One may say Rigal is "cheating" in the DS1000Z, and strictly speaking that's probably correct. But what difference does it make for the average hobby user working on audio or low-speed microcontroller stuff? I guess the result is still good enough for the job, if something better is really necessary, the options are plentiful.

If it is just a hobby - no difference whatsoever. But for student it might be a problem if he is trying to learn (analog stuff) and phenomenon on the screen is not "by the book". Anyway here is old PDF which explains it all:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/?action=dlattach;attach=280275 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/?action=dlattach;attach=280275)

Basic idea was to sweep 20...120MHz and plot amplitude response in different modes. Demodulator probe is used to check actual amplitude directly on scope input. Demod is low capacitance and does not affect operation. As seen physical amplitude on input has expected shape - slow rolloff. However phenomenon on the screen is wildly varying from very steep rolloff (Sinc=OFF) to rising amplitude with rising frequency. This "software boost" tech is cause for unrealistic rise time measurements. With Sinc=ON there is general correlation for higher voltage ranges: less datapoints per edge - more artificial steepening of the slope. Yet again different behaviour for low ranges... Quite complex mess to navigate... price for low price.

Example from PDF:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/?action=dlattach;attach=280272;image)
For 500mV/div reported amplitude is rising from 20 to 60MHz. Yet actually it is falling just like it should, measured directly on BNC connector (dotted lines).

Certainly there is range of tasks where this is not a problem. For other tasks - showstopper. So best if information is out there and anyone can make informed decision and not just fall for pretty knobs and general hype.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 06, 2018, 06:57:58 pm
To add more to the confusion, here are some screenshots of my "liberated" 1054Z, fed with a signal from a Leo Bodnar fast edge square generator through a 50R BNC terminator to channel 1 (the other channels perform identical). The scope was configured in dot mode and fine vertical control. The single input divider relay of the DS1000Z switches between 330 and 335mV/div and this makes a big difference: at 335mV selection, the input amplifier "sees" much less signal and the VGA integrated in the A/D converter is adjusted at high gain. I kept that as a reference trace while I changed input sensitivity to 330mV, resulting in the input amp being driven with a much larger signal. The trace shapes and rise times differ by more than 1ns, but both appear to be well within the 100MHz range.

I also took a reading at 250MSa/s. Funny enough, the input divider relay is now actuated between 250 and 245mV/div. The difference of the rise time between the two settings now is neglible but something ugly goes on with the sin(X)/x trace reconstruction. It becomes obvious that even in dot mode (not only vector display), the 'scope uses this correction function (or something else...maybe a high pass filter to compensate for the input amp's high frequency dropoff) to modify the data readings. Unfortunately, the sin(x)/x "optimization" can only be disabled at 250MSa/s so it's difficult to get a better understanding of what kind of mathematical methods are used (see the third and fourth screenshots).

One may say Rigal is "cheating" in the DS1000Z, and strictly speaking that's probably correct. But what difference does it make for the average hobby user working on audio or low-speed microcontroller stuff? I guess the result is still good enough for the job, if something better is really necessary, the options are plentiful.

Are there any differences between the DS1054Z and DS1104Z models hardware-wise? Possible, but I doubt it. The instrument is too inexpensive for the manufacturer to go through the hassle of component or instrument selection.

Cheers,
Thomas

Something about Sin(x)/x... and Rig(x)/x what mess have continued nearly 10 years. Hopeless. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscopes-what-happened-to-equivalent-time-sampling/msg1804145/#msg1804145)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CatalinaWOW on September 06, 2018, 07:57:54 pm
Your measurements show a plus or minus 1.3 dB difference between the all the different conditions at the highest frequency.  While there are cases where 1.3 dB is a showstopper, there are many, many more where it will be lost in the noise.  If you really want to measure things an oscilloscope, no matter what it's pedigree, is rarely the right tool.  An oscilloscope is primarily a visualization tool, with some capability to make low precision measurements.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 06, 2018, 08:29:19 pm
Your measurements show a plus or minus 1.3 dB difference between the all the different conditions at the highest frequency.

Did you even look at PDF?   :-//

@100MHz

3.500V gen out displayed.

Demod reports 3.147V on gen (scope not connected), 2.841V on scope connector. Note that demod lowers value and is for relative not absolute measurements.

Scope reads:
3.440V at 1GSa/s, Sinc
2.080V at 250MSa/s, w/o Sinc

Sink it in. ~2V vs ~3.5V!!! When twisting knobs that should only affect signal fidelity, not amplitude.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 06, 2018, 09:05:22 pm
Your measurements show a plus or minus 1.3 dB difference between the all the different conditions at the highest frequency.

Did you even look at PDF?   :-//

@100MHz

3.500V gen out displayed.

Demod reports 3.147V on gen (scope not connected), 2.841V on scope connector. Note that demod lowers value and is for relative not absolute measurements.

Scope reads:
3.440V at 1GSa/s, Sinc
2.080V at 250MSa/s, w/o Sinc

Sink it in. ~2V vs ~3.5V!!! When twisting knobs that should only affect signal fidelity, not amplitude.

Here small part from my tests year 2014

Signal 70MHz pure sine and exatly same input level in both images. Why 70MHz. Because at this time I use  DS1074Z. This freq is not so important.

Important is that oscilloscope itself do this level step without any change in signal level, freq or shape or any other things but t/div change and without even samplerate change.

And this affect level change. Totally wrong, so totally that I can ask, what hell they are smoking in Rigol when they design. I repeat. Signal is exatly same. If nothing other but this make it special severe and tell that design is wrong.
Only change is timebase. Samplerate also do not change. (then if continue from 100ns to 5ns/div it keep this changed level level.)

(in same old thread where from are these images, there is more things but this total mess with Sin(x)/x is really mad. Why do wrong because it is so simple do right. Now they need name it Rig(x)/x what they first time implement to DS1052E ten years ago and also at this time tested and proofed that they did it wrong (Sinc iterpolation rule violation) . It is same question or not with this level drop but least somehow they are hand in hand relatives. I do not know how exactly.)

But disclaimer: This test is old. I do not know if this have changed after many FW repairs. Someone can check.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/?action=dlattach;attach=122082;image)
200n-dots-sinxOff.png

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/?action=dlattach;attach=122084;image)
100n-dots-sinxOff.png


"Rigol oscilloscope is primarily visualization tool" (others are analyzers and mesurement tools for characterize less or more unknown signal.)

Rigol is like watching sky using this "tool"...  look in and it show you what it like show...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaleidoscope#/media/File:Kaleidoscope_San_Diego.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaleidoscope#/media/File:Kaleidoscope_San_Diego.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Kaleidoscope_San_Diego.jpg/1280px-Kaleidoscope_San_Diego.jpg)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Supernick on September 06, 2018, 09:10:14 pm
I will write a direct message to the Rigol and ask whether it is possible to hack ds1054z and what consequences  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on September 06, 2018, 09:37:27 pm
I will write a direct message to the Rigol and ask whether it is possible to hack ds1054z and what consequences  :)

This old saying comes to mind -

"Let sleeping dogs lie"
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on September 06, 2018, 10:03:07 pm
I will write a direct message to the Rigol and ask whether it is possible to hack ds1054z and what consequences  :)

:-//

I insist that if you all called it "unlock" instead of "hack" all would live less worried...

The individual man hours spent discussing this subject are worth more (in cash) than the money needed to buy a better scope!!

If you want a 50MHz scope with the intention of upgrading to 100MHz because it's a good bargain, just accept all/any limitations that strategy may imply (if any)!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CatalinaWOW on September 06, 2018, 10:47:13 pm
Your measurements show a plus or minus 1.3 dB difference between the all the different conditions at the highest frequency.

Did you even look at PDF?   :-//

@100MHz

3.500V gen out displayed.

Demod reports 3.147V on gen (scope not connected), 2.841V on scope connector. Note that demod lowers value and is for relative not absolute measurements.

Scope reads:
3.440V at 1GSa/s, Sinc
2.080V at 250MSa/s, w/o Sinc

Sink it in. ~2V vs ~3.5V!!! When twisting knobs that should only affect signal fidelity, not amplitude.

I just looked at the chart you posted.  Using the numbers your are whining about (3.4 and 2.0) it is plus or minus 2 dB.  Not great, but I'll stand by the other comments.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on September 07, 2018, 04:01:07 am
...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/?action=dlattach;attach=122082;image)
200n-dots-sinxOff.png

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/?action=dlattach;attach=122084;image)
100n-dots-sinxOff.png

I am not totally sure what the complaint is in this post, but I noticed that it was disclaimed as an old test. I think the complaint is the amplitude change when sin(x)/x is off on dots mode. So I made some animations of a current oscilloscope with the 2nd to latest firmware.


* 20 MHz sine wave (I can't generate a 70MHz sine wave easily)
* DOTS mode
* intensity 91%

sin(x)/x off - 100ns/div to 100ms/div
(https://i.imgur.com/hlZMIGV.gif)

sin(x)/x on - 100ns/div to 200ms/div
(https://i.imgur.com/OBw0ASO.gif)

sin(x)/x on with AA - 100ns/div to 100ms/div
(https://i.imgur.com/PmrEenf.gif)

I would conclude from these that there is no change in amplitude when changing the timebase. It's not possible to see from these captures, but there is a slight change in amplitude from sin(x)/x on to sin(x)/x off. But it's slight.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on September 07, 2018, 04:45:21 am
I wanted to cross-post in here to point out that the newest version of Rigol Bildschirmkopie (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie/index.htm) is available which has precise control of screenshot capturing which allows for nicer video output and smoother videos from the Rigol 1054z (and presumably other Rigol instruments). It was previously a problem when capturing "as fast as possible" because the scope would skip important work (like FFT) in favor of sending screenshots. But this has been fixed as exemplified here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/does-anyone-have-a-copy-of-his-rigol-bildschirmkopie-software/msg1805432/#msg1805432).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 07, 2018, 04:58:05 am
@ technogeeky
Because I want know truth and also I want of course change my opinion about this situation if the new information overrides the old one.

So, if looks that finally they have repaired this level change. (ETA: look bottom)

But then it is also interesting if they have also repaired old Sin(x)/x fake.

Simply - one very important major rule is. Interpolation result line goes through every samplepoint.
It have been problem in old DS1000E and then later in DS1000Z.
But as told last test I have done years ago.

ETA: oh no! Now my old eyes find this what makes it questionable until more comparable data:
Quote
* 20 MHz sine wave (I can't generate a 70MHz sine wave easily)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on September 07, 2018, 06:26:30 am
Because I want know truth and also I want of course change my opinion about this situation if the new information overrides the old one.

Dunno why, have a feeling that you will only change your opinion once you become a Rigol distributor, instead of current Siglent, really wish one day you carry both at your shop, as I respect your technical experiences at oscilloscopes especially at the boat anchor types.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on September 07, 2018, 07:21:15 am
Most probably sin(x)/x was on when testing, or some other acquisition settings were different between the two 'scopes.
You can't disable it unless you enable several channels. That's an oddity.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on September 07, 2018, 08:19:22 am
Because I want know truth and also I want of course change my opinion about this situation if the new information overrides the old one.

Dunno why, have a feeling that you will only change your opinion once you become a Rigol distributor, instead of current Siglent, really wish one day you carry both at your shop, as I respect your technical experiences at oscilloscopes especially at the boat anchor types.
You need to know some long standing, very knowledgeable and respected members better; from 2014:

Quote
I sell also Owon and have previously sold Hantek and Rigol.
(also Owon have very low failure rate but not exatly zero but ~1%)

Hantek - so much warranty time problems and also so much just DOA units from factory. Never want this catastroph repeating. In worst phase incoming Hanteks failure percent in my quality control was well over 25% (~40%). (depending how to count lots).  It was finally -  game over.

Rigol - long time ago I sell also R. -  never get any answer from Rigol for solve any problems. So, I stopped.   In  my own use for some dedicated purpose  I have also new Rigol (1000Z series) but I do not even think to sell these.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/are-siglent-oscilloscopes-reliable/msg576620/#msg576620 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/are-siglent-oscilloscopes-reliable/msg576620/#msg576620)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2018, 08:32:21 am
Scope reads:
3.440V at 1GSa/s, Sinc
2.080V at 250MSa/s, w/o Sinc

Sink it in. ~2V vs ~3.5V!!! When twisting knobs that should only affect signal fidelity, not amplitude.

Ummm... let's see if I've got this straight:

What you're saying is that when you sample a signal then don't do a proper sinc reconstruction, the answer is wrong? Is that correct?

Mr. rf-loop seems to agree:

First 3 images:
200ns/div ; Sin(x)/x  OFF  scope show normal level (as also with more low speeds)
100ns/div ; Sin(x)/x  OFF  level drops down and then stay same level from this speed down to 5ns/s
005ns/div ; Sin(x)/x  OFF level drops down
Next 3 images:
200ns/div ; Sin(x)/x  ON  level ok (as also with more low speeds)
100ns/div ; Sin(x)/x  ON  level ok
005ns/div ; Sin(x)/x  ON  level ok

Also if think typical criteria for sin(x)/x interpolation there is 250MSa/s and input is 70MHz sinewave. Samplerate/input frequency = 3.57 what is ok. Even with 100MHz it is still in acceptable range (2.5)

sin(x)/x=ON gives correct answers? Go figure. :palm:

Worse: You're doing this "analysis" on an oscilloscope that only lets you disable sin(x)/x when it knows that there's not many samples per MHz (ie. when it goes down to just 2.5 samples per wave), all the rest of the time sin(x)/x is forced on. (I wonder why Rigol would do that? Hmmm...  :horse: )

And (b): You have to use "dot" mode to even see the problem - which nobody in their right mind would ever do.

ie. This has no practical effect on any usage scenario that would happen in real life.

Me? I think the real problem here is in the heads of the people who waste everybody's time with this junk (and on a $350 oscilloscope, too!)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 07, 2018, 11:43:06 am
Now they need name it Rig(x)/x

:clap:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rig (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rig)

Quote
to arrange dishonestly for the result of something, for example an election, to be changed


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 07, 2018, 11:50:52 am
* 20 MHz sine wave (I can't generate a 70MHz sine wave easily)

If you look my tests it is pretty adequate at that frequency, circus starts at about 50MHz when number of samples per wfm feature gets low and rig(x)/x kicks in heavily. So if analog-related tasks lie below 50MHz no prob.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 07, 2018, 12:06:15 pm
What you're saying is that when you sample a signal then don't do a proper sinc reconstruction, the answer is wrong? Is that correct?

Are you implying that "proper sinc reconstruction" is rising signal level over 4dB compared to actual recorded sample points?
Also you seem to be on position that signal max amplitude should be somehow related to sampling rate (of course given some minimal sufficient set of points to account for aliasing etc).
Is it so?  ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2018, 12:45:23 pm
Are you implying that "proper sinc reconstruction" is rising signal level over 4dB compared to actual recorded sample points?
Also you seem to be on position that signal max amplitude should be somehow related to sampling rate (of course given some minimal sufficient set of points to account for aliasing etc).
Is it so?  ::)

Where are you getting "actual recorded sample points" from?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 07, 2018, 12:49:47 pm
Quote from: Fungus link=topic=36920.msg1806275#msg1806275
Where are you getting "actual recorded sample points" from?

One should be getting then from Sinc=OFF trace...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2018, 01:00:11 pm
Quote from: Fungus link=topic=36920.msg1806275#msg1806275
Where are you getting "actual recorded sample points" from?

One should be getting then from Sinc=OFF trace...

Yes, but but it's not a legal requirement and we know that in this particular case one isn't.

That means your little "analysis" is all ass-backward and your conclusions are wrong.

Worse: You know all this, hence your emphasis of the word "should", above.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 07, 2018, 01:06:02 pm
Did you even look at PDF?   :-//

It would be more interesting if I knew more about your test setup and equipment. What's the uncertainty of the signal flatness and then of the system? Are you relying on the flatness of a signal generator sweep or are you leveling at the input?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 07, 2018, 01:16:54 pm
It would be more interesting if I knew more about your test setup and equipment. What's the uncertainty of the signal flatness and then of the system? Are you relying on the flatness of a signal generator sweep or are you leveling at the input?

Heres original post with all details including raw data in Excel:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/msg1097348/#msg1097348 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/msg1097348/#msg1097348)

Flatness was recorded and checked:
Look green tables named "demod on gen CH1"
Testec TT-DE 112 950MHz demod (some tests here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/how-to-avoid-breaking-the-spectrum-analyzer-what-accessories-to-have/msg1013574/#msg1013574)) & Agilent U1272A was used to check voltages between gen and scope (BNC T after 50ohm pass-thru).
If was double checked that demod had no effect on display values.
Generator was Siglent SDG2042X in 120MHz flavour and has excellent flatness (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg1294204/#msg1294204).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 07, 2018, 01:24:16 pm
Yes, but but it's not a legal requirement and we know that in this particular case one isn't.

Good business to consumer relationship is about trust and following best practices, not legal requirements...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2018, 02:20:57 pm
Yes, but but it's not a legal requirement and we know that in this particular case one isn't.

Good business to consumer relationship is about trust and following best practices, not legal requirements...

I'd say that this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=516251;image)

Is a more true representation of the original signal than this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=516257;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on September 07, 2018, 04:03:08 pm
* 20 MHz sine wave (I can't generate a 70MHz sine wave easily)

If you look my tests it is pretty adequate at that frequency, circus starts at about 50MHz when number of samples per wfm feature gets low and rig(x)/x kicks in heavily. So if analog-related tasks lie below 50MHz no prob.

I can only generate psuedo square waves above 50 MHz. I'll consider re-running the test later.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2018, 04:21:03 pm
If you look my tests it is pretty adequate at that frequency, circus starts at about 50MHz when number of samples per wfm feature gets low and rig(x)/x kicks in heavily. So if analog-related tasks lie below 50MHz no prob.

This is complete rubbish. The only "problem" is that the dots don't conform to your (unfounded) expectations in dot mode with sin(x)/x turned off, they match the original waveform instead.

ie. The problem is in your head, not in the 'scope.

Your "50MHz" figure is also pulled out of your butt because you're ignoring that fact that you're not running at full sample rate, ie. that "analog-related tasks" can run at 100MHz with 10 samples per wfm on this 'scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 07, 2018, 07:38:28 pm
This is complete rubbish. The only "problem" is that the dots don't conform to your (unfounded) expectations in dot mode with sin(x)/x turned off, they match the original waveform instead.

ie. The problem is in your head, not in the 'scope.

Your "50MHz" figure is also pulled out of your butt because you're ignoring that fact that you're not running at full sample rate, ie. that "analog-related tasks" can run at 100MHz with 10 samples per wfm on this 'scope.

You seem upset, might it be poorly masked frustration due to low performance hardware at hand? About my expectations, I expect any properly engineered 100MHz scope to perform approx like this (just measured my main scope with same config as old test):

Scope set to 5ns/div.

3.500Vpp sine @100MHz reported by gen:

20GSa/s ETS - linear: 2.747Vpp
1GSa/s RTS - Sinc: 2.639Vpp; linear: 2.592Vpp
500MSa/s RTS - Sinc: 2.703Vpp; linear: 2.576Vpp
250MSa/s RTS - Sinc: 2.675Vpp; linear: 2.677Vpp

350mVpp sine @100MHz reported by gen:

20GSa/s ETS - linear: 284mVpp
1GSa/s RTS - Sinc: 273mVpp; linear: 268Vpp
500MSa/s RTS - Sinc: 280mVpp; linear: 266mVpp
250MSa/s RTS - Sinc: 277mVpp; linear: 277mVpp

Thats 0.5dB between two most apart readings or +-0.25dB like some would like to say.  As for amplitudes, what on earth they have to do with sampling rate? I can only see that drop is about 2dB @100MHz irrelevant of vertical range... :-// Will check some other scope also later.

Edit: Done. Analog Discovery 2. Since it has only 100MSa/s max tested at 10Mhz:

Scope set to dynamic ns/div, memory set to 32 samples.

350mVpp sine @10MHz reported by gen:

100MSa/s RTS, 16x oversampling: Sinc: 342mVpp; linear: 341mVpp
100MSa/s RTS: Sinc: 336mVpp; linear: 336mVpp
50MSa/s RTS: Sinc: 321mVpp; linear: 321mVpp
25MSa/s RTS: Sinc: 321mVpp; linear: 321mVpp

3.500Vpp sine @10MHz reported by gen:

100MSa/s RTS, 16x oversampling: Sinc: 3.385Vpp; linear: 3.386Vpp
...did not bother further, again 0.5dB max diff, scopes based on well established engineering practices are complete yawn to test  :=\
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 07, 2018, 09:04:58 pm
What about testing a 100MHz DS1104Z against another 100MHz DS1104Z ? Shouldn't it be considered also in these "scientific" analyses?

I would be nice to test lots of them but not very practical.  Few people with the needed test equipment have access to more than one or two and true 100MHz DS1104Zs are understandably rare.

Wasn't hard. First was a charged capacitor and fast switch. I do not recall what I was doing on the second, but probably something similar with different triggering. What should I be looking for?

Overload in this case depends on volts/second so if it is occurring, it also amplitude dependent.  Higher sensitivities are less likely to display it because the volts/second of the edge is lower to stay within the display.

So doing that test at 5 volts/division like you did should show it but there is also the complication that the high impedance divider before the high impedance buffer is being used.  That divider may be limiting input bandwidth preventing the problem.  The example I showed is at 400 millivolts/division which I assume is actually 200 or 500 millivolts per division as far as the various attenuators.  Worst case will be the lowest sensitivity where the high input impedance divider is not used.  The table of bandwidth measurements not long ago indicated that the high impedance divider had a major effect on input bandwidth.

I do not see any slew rate related overload in your examples.

Hmm.. I had made an assumption there myself, that of the different bandwidth models actually having different (analog) bandwidth and/or rise times (in the front end path). Which, afaik, requires, for example (might have more to it), hardware low pass filter being enabled/disabled/adjusted in the hardware (via software control on the basis of the model), thus my idea of "hardware used differently". (Put in other words: both models having the filters there = "same hardware"; one disabling a piece of it = "used differently".)

Dave's reverse engineered schematic shows two digital control signals which switch a pair of analog bandwidth filters (they switch some shunt capacitors and it is a common arrangement in oscilloscopes for this function) to provide 20, 50, 70, and 100 MHz bandwidths.  These numbers can be calculated from the component values shown in his schematic.  The thing he has labeled as "bandwidth" is something else which is not entirely clear.

Look for cause why scope which clearly does not have actual 200MHz analog frontend reports such rise time ;) 0.35/1.65ns=0.212GHz
Plotting amplitude response graph to sinusoidal signal sweep might give some clues.

The other post I mentioned reported the results of such a test and the bandwidth varied significantly with vertical sensitivity which is unusual; usually oscilloscopes are designed to have constant bandwidth.  Sometimes bandwidth decreases at the highest vertical sensitivity settings because gain stages are switched instead of attenuation stages but it still remains constant with different signal amplitudes.  It used to be a marketable feature if bandwidth was constant but buyers usually assume this is the case when it may not be.

What was not tested is if the bandwidth varied with amplitude indicating non-linearity and a full power bandwidth limit.

The single input divider relay of the DS1000Z switches between 330 and 335mV/div and this makes a big difference: at 335mV selection, the input amplifier "sees" much less signal and the VGA integrated in the A/D converter is adjusted at high gain. I kept that as a reference trace while I changed input sensitivity to 330mV, resulting in the input amp being driven with a much larger signal. The trace shapes and rise times differ by more than 1ns, but both appear to be well within the 100MHz range.

The shape is interesting in your second example.  The first shows a Gaussian response but the second shows a first order response.

So the response was Gaussian with the high impedance attenuator and high ADC gain but first order without the high impedance attenuator and low ADC gain.

Your first example seems to show a 5 nanosecond ledge immediately after the edge and it looks like it is in the reference recording of the same signal.  I wonder if that is something or not.  It is too bad that Leo Bodnar's pulser cannot generate a higher output amplitude.

We know the design is the same or at least I assume it is.  We do not know if Rigol grades or selects them.

Lots of people have tried to find a difference over the years, all have failed.

Most users lack either the equipment or experience to find this sort of difference.

Quote
(And there's absolutely no reason to think they're using borderline components that might go one way or the other during manufacturing).

Do you mean other than using 2N3904s in 100MHz transconductance amplifiers?  That by itself is suspicious.

Rigol did not include those emitter equalization stages with variable tail current without reason.  The variable tail current is suspicious as hell because a low tail current would lead to exactly this sort of problem.

Rigol also did not include collector series loads for thermal balancing but with that weird cascode arrangement, maybe they were not needed.  Nobody has tested for thermal balance but it is an even more obscure issue and I doubt anybody is using a Rigol oscilloscope where it would matter.  Thermal balance affects settling time in the 10s to 1000s of microseconds and is the major limitation for settling time in precision amplifiers.

Quote
A hacked 100MHz DS1054Z should be compared to a 100MHz DS1104Z.

It's been done several times over the years and no difference found.

If they are identical which I regard as a likely because for reasons of economy (I doubt Rigol is testing these oscilloscopes and only using the best ones for the higher bandwidth model), then that makes the DS1104Z just as flawed.  I only suggested that they are grading them to give them the benefit of my doubt.

An oscilloscope is primarily a visualization tool, with some capability to make low precision measurements.

I at least expect the visualization of the same edge at different vertical sensitivity settings to be consistent.  Changes in pulse shape with amplitude and position are actually a very good test for overload.

If the transition time measurements are changing over the range reported for the same edge, then that is even worse.

The individual man hours spent discussing this subject are worth more (in cash) than the money needed to buy a better scope!!

That is what I did by not buying a Rigol.  Back when I evaluated them just before the DS1000Z series became available, I concluded they were best to avoid and various reports on the DS1000Z series have convinced me that I made the right decision.

But my curiosity in oscilloscope design and performance is enough that I want to know what is going on.  The lack of documentation makes for a challenging puzzle.

I am not totally sure what the complaint is in this post, but I noticed that it was disclaimed as an old test. I think the complaint is the amplitude change when sin(x)/x is off on dots mode. So I made some animations of a current oscilloscope with the 2nd to latest firmware.

Amplitude should not be changing at different time/division settings, sample rates, or interpolation settings whether aliasing is present or not unless insufficient sample points are captured which is not the case here.  Somewhere the vertical histogram of the signal is being corrupted although Rigol may not be using it for measurements which does not improve the situation.

I am not really surprised by this behavior in a DSO which makes measurements on the display record instead of the processing record.  It is a major design compromise more suitable for a toy.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2018, 10:57:55 pm
Scope set to 5ns/div.

3.500Vpp sine @100MHz reported by gen:

20GSa/s ETS - linear: 2.747Vpp
1GSa/s RTS - Sinc: 2.639Vpp; linear: 2.592Vpp
500MSa/s RTS - Sinc: 2.703Vpp; linear: 2.576Vpp
250MSa/s RTS - Sinc: 2.675Vpp; linear: 2.677Vpp

Your own numbers show the importance of not turning off the sinc filter. You get significant errors without it - even on your high-bandwidth, 20GSa/s oscilloscope!

This video explains very clearly what the sinc function does and why a "join the dots" approach gives wrong answers. It should help clear up any confusion.  :-+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM)

I am not totally sure what the complaint is in this post, but I noticed that it was disclaimed as an old test. I think the complaint is the amplitude change when sin(x)/x is off on dots mode. So I made some animations of a current oscilloscope with the 2nd to latest firmware.

Somebody else needs to watch that video. The importance of not turning off the sinc filter really can't be understated - you're not recreating the original signal without it. Any "measurements" you make while it's disabled are automatically suspect.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on September 07, 2018, 11:59:54 pm

I am not totally sure what the complaint is in this post, but I noticed that it was disclaimed as an old test. I think the complaint is the amplitude change when sin(x)/x is off on dots mode. So I made some animations of a current oscilloscope with the 2nd to latest firmware.

Somebody else needs to watch that video. The importance of not turning off the sinc filter really can't be understated - you're not recreating the original signal without it. Any "measurements" you make while it's disabled are automatically suspect.

I appreciate the video link, which I will watch. But I don't necessarily need to be told what to do. I only wanted to contribute some new screen captures and only did so because the ones presented were listed as old (perhaps raising doubt if there are differences anymore) and tried to replicate the measurement. I had to guess as to what the point of the two screen shots was, and so I did.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2018, 12:08:44 am

I am not totally sure what the complaint is in this post, but I noticed that it was disclaimed as an old test. I think the complaint is the amplitude change when sin(x)/x is off on dots mode. So I made some animations of a current oscilloscope with the 2nd to latest firmware.

Somebody else needs to watch that video. The importance of not turning off the sinc filter really can't be understated - you're not recreating the original signal without it. Any "measurements" you make while it's disabled are automatically suspect.

I appreciate the video link, which I will watch. But I don't necessarily need to be told what to do.

Sorry for not being clear: I didn't mean you need to watch it (although it's a good idea if you haven't seen it yet), I meant whoever posted that there's a difference in readings with sinc on/off. This difference won't surprise anybody who understands signal theory.

That video makes it very clear what the sinc function ("reconstruction filter") is, and why it's necessary.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 08, 2018, 12:51:43 am
Quote from: David Hess
Most users lack either the equipment or experience to find this sort of difference.

Well, that tells you something about the scope, doesn't it? I mean...if you had a machinist or perhaps a team of surveyors check all the "right angles" in your home, I'll wager that they might find a few that aren't "exactly" 90.00 degrees. Most homeowners lack the equipment or experience to find this sort of difference. Yet... your house doesn't fall down.   >:D

This scope fills a niche that needed filling, as evidenced by its current competition. It sits right on the edge of hobby-semipro usage cases. As such, it isn't likely to be exposed to situations where "this sort of difference" really matters very much. It's "good enough" for the tasks at hand, most of the time, and after all the bugs are ironed out.


I am ecstatic that I can actually do something like this for under 400 dollars. I don't think the scope is lying to me in any significant manner:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: technogeeky on September 08, 2018, 01:00:58 am

I am not totally sure what the complaint is in this post, but I noticed that it was disclaimed as an old test. I think the complaint is the amplitude change when sin(x)/x is off on dots mode. So I made some animations of a current oscilloscope with the 2nd to latest firmware.

Somebody else needs to watch that video. The importance of not turning off the sinc filter really can't be understated - you're not recreating the original signal without it. Any "measurements" you make while it's disabled are automatically suspect.

I appreciate the video link, which I will watch. But I don't necessarily need to be told what to do.

Sorry for not being clear: I didn't mean you need to watch it (although it's a good idea if you haven't seen it yet), I meant whoever posted that there's a difference in readings with sinc on/off. This difference won't surprise anybody who understands signal theory.

That video makes it very clear what the sinc function ("reconstruction filter") is, and why it's necessary.

That is an extremely good video. I really appreciate the link! I don't think he actually mentions 'sinc function' explicitly, either.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 08, 2018, 01:37:05 am
There's a written version of the material as well. https://wiki.xiph.org/Videos/Digital_Show_and_Tell
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 08, 2018, 07:05:08 am
The importance of not turning off the sinc filter really can't be understated - you're not recreating the original signal without it. Any "measurements" you make while it's disabled are automatically suspect.

Actually if you want to do any sort of postprocessing either in scope or in MatLab etc it is absolutely critical to have raw data, otherwise you are properly locked out of various wonders of DSP magic.
Think of it like a family car with stability control that cannot be turned off. All it ever does is bluntly understeer. But take out a little fuse and fun begins ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2018, 07:31:06 am
That is an extremely good video. I really appreciate the link! I don't think he actually mentions 'sinc function' explicitly, either.

sinc is the mathematically correct function to use for reconstruction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittaker%E2%80%93Shannon_interpolation_formula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittaker%E2%80%93Shannon_interpolation_formula)

The important thing to understand is that a reconstruction filter is necessary and that "joining the dots" is wrong.

Many modern oscilloscopes don't let you turn off the sinc function at all, eg. this $12,000 keysight (https://uk.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/dsox3104t/oscilloscope-4-ch-1ghz-5gsps/dp/2449641). Guess what? There's still people looking for the 'off' button even here on EEVBLOG (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox3000t-can-i-turn-off-sinc-interpolation/) (where you'd think they'd know better).  :-//

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2018, 07:42:03 am
Actually if you want to do any sort of postprocessing either in scope or in MatLab etc it is absolutely critical to have raw data, otherwise you are properly locked out of various wonders of DSP magic.

You can turn off 'sinc' in the menu, right?

Ergo: The raw data must exist in memory somewhere.

(and the Rigol 'dump' function will give it to you)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 08, 2018, 12:20:44 pm
How is that done, Fungus? If that is true, then I am happier than I was after reading David Hess's post (and thanks for the reply, David). I need to think about it some, but wanted to see if there was a difference in the csv output with sinc vs raw sample points.

I had a full pulse (rise and falling edges) centered on screen, but the csv does not look like a full pulse. I see all 15 points both on screen and in the csv, but they are not at all the same points. I used memory instead of screen and was expecting more data than screen data, and why is there only ch1? I had ch3 active and ch4 was also on. I repeated with the source set to screen and I got all 1200 points. That seems backwards, but even if it is what does my first plot mean? What am I doing wrong? Further, my sweep time is 5ns/div*12 and 250MSa/s, so that is 15 points, so where does 1200 come from (100 pixels per division, but only 15 points?)?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2018, 03:00:54 pm
How is that done, Fungus? I had a full pulse (rise and falling edges) centered on screen, but the csv does not look like a full pulse. I see all 15 points both on screen and in the csv, but they are not at all the same points. I used memory instead of screen and was expecting more data than screen data, and why is there only ch1?

Without knowing anything at all about your methods? I have no idea.  :-//


You want the original sample data? I've never programmed it myself so don't quote me on this, but... a quick browse of the manual makes me think you might want to download data in "RAW" mode instead of "NORMAL" mode.

There's various things you have to do before you can do this, eg. stop the oscilloscope from sampling any new data. My interpretation of the manual is that if you don't get it right you'll get downsampled sin(x)/x data instead.

(it's the same "read" command for both types of data).

Here's the manual entry:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=517823;image)

where does 1200 come from (100 pixels per division, but only 15 points?)?

I can answer that one: There's 600 horizontal pixels on screen. The FPGA filters blocks of 1200 datapoints from the sample memory into a in main memory buffer for the display (some memory which is accessible from the main CPU).

I assume they're averaged 2:1 when they're drawn on screen.

Why 2:1 ratio? Only Rigol knows for sure but my guess is that having twice the number of samples to work with makes the on-screen measurements a bit more accurate.

Anyway, anything that comes in blocks of 1200 points has almost certainly had sin(x)/x applied to it. Take that into account.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 08, 2018, 06:42:42 pm
Actually 1200 points are probably related to peak detection feature:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1094167/#msg1094167 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1094167/#msg1094167)

Quote
But it cannot return a 1200 point peak detected record in 1200 8-bit words; it would take 2400 words.  I assume the FPGA always returns a 1200 word record but in peak detect mode, the record is composed to 600 pairs and in normal mode, it is 1200 separate points.  At least that is how other DSOs handle it.  By returning a record which is twice as long as necessary in normal mode, peak detection mode does not visibly halve the horizontal resolution.

Effective resolution for measurements on screen is 300 points, experimentally proven:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/msg1091323/#msg1091323 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/msg1091323/#msg1091323)

Measurements accuracy seem to correlate with this formula:
Secondary (screen/buffer) sampling rate = 1 / (Timebase / 25)
(usually one would estimate accuracy from actual sampling rate)


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2018, 07:28:12 pm
Actually 1200 points are probably related to peak detection feature:

ie.

a) There's 600 pixels on screen.
b) Somebody at Rigol decided 600 wasn't really enough for numerical accuracy.
c) 1200 is the next logical size to use.
d) Profit!

Effective resolution for measurements on screen is 300 points, experimentally proven:

Yet again you just dump a huge list of numbers on the world with no explanation and expect people to believe a conclusion based on that.

We've already seen that some of your basic assumptions can be wrong, eg. "dots mode doesn't use sinc".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 08, 2018, 08:05:07 pm
Yet again you just dump a huge list of numbers on the world with no explanation and expect people to believe a conclusion based on that.

At 1GSa/s, 1us/div timebase scope reports <=10ns rising edge as 60ns.

Proposed formula:
1 / (0.000001 / 25) = 25000000 Sa/s => 25MSa/s => 40ns interval between "screen samples".

Check:
12us* / 300 = 40ns
*screen width in time

So 300 points is even sort of generous. If divide by actual minimal interval eg 60ns get 200 points...

We've already seen that some of your basic assumptions can be wrong, eg. "dots mode doesn't use sinc".

Where I talk about dots? In general, manual says that Sinc is "optional" and in the menu there is clear option Sinc=OFF. So it is fair assumption that it should be OFF, not replaced by god knows what. Some say that Sinc=OFF is some filter instead (due to massive amplitude drop). But some say Sinc is not Sin(x)/x but Rig(x)/x. So we do not really know maybe "normalized" amplitude at high frequency is rigged from much lower physical response in the front end?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 08, 2018, 08:30:51 pm
My second plot represents what I see on the screen, with 5ns/div sweep and 250MSa/s, that is only 15 points possible. How does Rigol get more? BTW, I remember reading about the 1200 points, but how when sampling is so slow that you can only get 15 points? I can understand duplicating points to get 1200, but that is not so. I was using single trigger.

Also, what is the first plot? It looks like nothing based on the signal. Is that feature broken (save memory to csv)? Why do I not have 15 points that look like what's on screen, like I would expect? Wouldn't you expect that? Why not?

So, no scpi means no raw data or sample point data ever?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2018, 08:42:39 pm
My second plot represents what I see on the screen, with 5ns/div sweep and 250MSa/s, that is only 15 points possible. How does Rigol get more?

By using a reconstruction filter.

Why do I not have 15 points that look like what's on screen

Maybe because on screen there's a reconstruction filter in effect? It's not like you mention your settings or anything like that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 08, 2018, 08:52:55 pm
From default, all 4 channels on 5ns/div sweep. Input a 10 MHz pulse period, probably 40ns pulse width, to any channel and set the verticals and single triggering. It's a pulse like my second plot.

The only difference between my plots what the data came 1: from save memory csv data and 2: save screen csv data - to a USB.

1: why is there only 15 points? I expect that anyway, but why do those 15 points not reflect the actual waveform?
2: this is what I expected in the above.

I really do not think it matters what is set up, just that save screen vs memory to csv is totally different. I think it's a new bug.

This is not a difference like sinc vs no sync, it's like a difference of wave being offset and truncated 180 degrees.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 08, 2018, 09:06:21 pm
You see this trace, and I will save it as CSV screen data. What I should get? Here is also what I get, in second plot above. I get all 4 channels and 1200 points.

When I change only the data source to memory, I get 15 points, ONLY channel 1 (when ch3 is active), and nothing like the actual scope image.

WTF?



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2018, 09:07:22 pm
In general, manual says that Sinc is "optional" and in the menu there is clear option Sinc=OFF. So it is fair assumption that it should be OFF, not replaced by god knows what.

Says who?

Maybe it works like that $12,000 keysight 'scope I mentioned earlier:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox3000t-can-i-turn-off-sinc-interpolation/msg1266347/#msg1266347 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox3000t-can-i-turn-off-sinc-interpolation/msg1266347/#msg1266347)

(are you going to say that $12,000 Keysights are "wrong", too?)

We do not really know

That's the only sensible thing you've said in this whole thread.

We do know that we get good results from a DS1104Z if we stop dicking around in dots mode at maximum settings with no sin(x)/x and a head full of unfounded assumptions.

And that's all that really matters.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 08, 2018, 09:15:31 pm
looks like a bug. I shut off other 3 channels and saved memory (now 60pts), and the wave represents.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2018, 09:17:32 pm
You see this trace, and I will save it as CSV screen data. What I should get? I get all 4 channels and 1200 points.

Correct.

When I change only the data source to memory, I get 15 points, ONLY channel 1 (when ch3 is active)

My copy of the manual says:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=518201;image)

To me this suggests it's only going to save data for one channel in that mode.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2018, 09:20:22 pm
looks like a bug. I shut off other 3 channels and saved memory (now 60pts), and the wave represents.

When you shut off 3 channels the 'scope will force sin(x)/x on and it will have more samples/MHz.

For this sort of work you should always try to maximize the sample rate, on a Rigol DS1054Z that might mean using one channel.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 09, 2018, 06:56:37 am
In general, manual says that Sinc is "optional" and in the menu there is clear option Sinc=OFF. So it is fair assumption that it should be OFF, not replaced by god knows what.
Says who?

So are you saying that expecting that OFF is OFF is unfair assumption :-DD Seems working with so specific equipment has left its mark on you :)

Maybe it works like that $12,000 keysight 'scope I mentioned earlier:

This is ancient technology, also it can be assumed that on Keysight OFF is OFF, they do tend to have classical front end not needing special kinds of post-processing...

As for "screen sampling", even Rigol itself has moved on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo0RzOP1t2E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo0RzOP1t2E)

Maybe they'll give you one then can work with more than 1 channel ;)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on September 09, 2018, 07:55:07 am
How is that done, Fungus?

There are many tools available to download the raw internal memory waveform data from the scope
to your pc.
The one I use is DSRemote. It saves the data in EDF format which can be opened in Octave, Scilab,
Matlab and EDFbrowser for further analysis.

Never use csv format.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2018, 11:13:21 am
So are you saying that expecting that OFF is OFF is unfair assumption

Haven't you seen any if the sigs around here?

"Lies, damned lies, and what's on the screen of your oscilloscope", etc.

Might be something to bear in mind when you sit down for days producing numbers then trying to draw "conclusions" from them.

As for "screen sampling", even Rigol itself has moved on:

Wisely investing the profits from their market-defining DS1054Z.

I can't wait to see that new ASIC in a $400 'scope later this year!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 09, 2018, 01:46:52 pm
looks like a bug. I shut off other 3 channels and saved memory (now 60pts), and the wave represents.

When you shut off 3 channels the 'scope will force sin(x)/x on and it will have more samples/MHz.

For this sort of work you should always try to maximize the sample rate, on a Rigol DS1054Z that might mean using one channel.

sinc was on all the time. It is not that issue. Just save memory to csv, and data is offset.

How is that done, Fungus?

There are many tools available to download the raw internal memory waveform data from the scope
to your pc.
The one I use is DSRemote. It saves the data in EDF format which can be opened in Octave, Scilab,
Matlab and EDFbrowser for further analysis.

Never use csv format.

What's wrong with csv? Don't the values have to be in some delimited text format, no matter what mechanism is used to get the data? Or do you mean do not use the scope's built in save to usb device functions? Perhaps we are working in the field or on antenna towers and having PC interface is difficult.

I am not talking about sinc or sample depth anyway. Just the save memory as csv format seems to not give you the data you see on the screen, when 3 or 4 channels are turned on...

So, I wonder what are those point data? It looks like the memory data are half a screen later than screen data.

Everything Fungus has said about this is correct, except the issue I am describing is not addressed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2018, 04:45:40 pm
I just had a play with the 'scope and the issue is complex. I haven't figured out all the details yet.

The ASCII formats are a bit suspect when you have 4 channels on and maximum zoom. There seems to be a bug where the points at the right of the screen are missing. You can move the trigger to the left but there's definitely something wrong there.

Reading raw binary data over LAN isn't easy - you have to scale/offset it yourself and the manual isn't very clear on the details. Maybe the people at DSRemote already figured it out...

There are many tools available to download the raw internal memory waveform data from the scope
to your pc.
The one I use is DSRemote. It saves the data in EDF format which can be opened in Octave, Scilab,
Matlab and EDFbrowser for further analysis.
Perhaps we are working in the field or on antenna towers and having PC interface is difficult.

Battery powered DS1054Z up an antenna tower trying to look at four pulse generators simultaneously? You'd think that sort of job could budget more than a $350 oscilloscope.

Still, you could save the data in Rigol .wfm format then reload it back into the 'scope when you get back to the office. Use DSRemote there.

(I assume .wfm format preserves all the information)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 09, 2018, 05:41:05 pm
All of my tools are old and used, or inexpensive with limitations. They all have their idiosyncrasies, so what is important to me is to understand that and learn how to make the tool perform the intended function. I appreciate your time to explain things, Fungus.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2018, 05:52:17 pm
I figured out how RAW data over LAN in BYTE format works. It gives exactly the same numbers as downloading the data over LAN in ASCII format.

The values in the BYTE format map directly to vertical screen pixels so I believe these numbers are the raw sample data from deep inside the 'scope. These numbers are as accurate as it gets. 8)

(and I assume DSRemote is using this data)

The question is: Why are these numbers subtly different from the .csv numbers?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 09, 2018, 06:47:11 pm
The values in the BYTE format map directly to vertical screen pixels so I believe these numbers are the raw sample data from deep inside the 'scope. These numbers are as accurate as it gets. 8)

Did you check for Sinc=ON|OFF @250MSa/s? Does raw data amplitude stay same or still changes like on screen? Of course you would need feed in 100MHz or so.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2018, 06:57:04 pm
Why are these numbers subtly different from the .csv numbers?

How subtle?

I've converted the differences between the two datasets into raw ADC values and they're all less than one ADC step (the majority are less than half an ADC step).

nb. One ADC step is exactly two pixels on screen so in physical terms the majority of differences between RAW and .csv are less than a pixel.

Seems like some sort of a rounding error to me. Maybe csv is done with fixed-point math.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2018, 07:19:16 pm
Did you check for Sinc=ON|OFF @250MSa/s? Does raw data amplitude stay same or still changes like on screen? Of course you would need feed in 100MHz or so.

Raw data seems to match what's on screen, ie. it obeys the sinc setting.

This probably means the 'raw' data is being read out through the FPGA reconstruction filter, there's no direct path to ADC memory.

FWIW I'm looking at a pulse from an Arduino pin, it has a measured rise time of about 4.5ns (and 20% overshoot thanks to a crappy dupont breadboard cable).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2018, 07:41:29 pm
Conclusion: RAW data is slightly better but using CSV isn't a real problem.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2018, 07:51:20 pm
One question that springs to mind while doing this is:

Does the trigger circuitry do sin(x)/x.

If it doesn't do it then there'd be a lot of horizontal jitter at these extremes - the trigger crossing would happen at different times depending on where the ADC happened to sample the wave.

But there isn't. The trigger is perfectly stable no matter what the settings, even with all channels on and close to 2.5 samples per wave.

What's going on there?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 10, 2018, 07:44:15 am
Does the trigger circuitry do sin(x)/x.

It makes sense to do heavy pre-conditioning of the signal before trigger process, otherwise it would be indeed a complete mess. rig(x)/x => [trigger =>] sin(x)/x. So if there are two passes of heavy conditioning it explains why response becomes so aggressive at low sample counts.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 10, 2018, 08:25:41 am
Does the trigger circuitry do sin(x)/x.

It makes sense to do heavy pre-conditioning of the signal before trigger process, otherwise it would be indeed a complete mess. rig(x)/x => [trigger =>] sin(x)/x. So if there are two passes of heavy conditioning it explains why response becomes so aggressive at low sample counts.

That's an interesting theory. Can you expand on it a little?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 10, 2018, 10:00:39 am
One question that springs to mind while doing this is:

Does the trigger circuitry do sin(x)/x.

If it doesn't do it then there'd be a lot of horizontal jitter at these extremes - the trigger crossing would happen at different times depending on where the ADC happened to sample the wave.

But there isn't. The trigger is perfectly stable no matter what the settings, even with all channels on and close to 2.5 samples per wave.

What's going on there?

Of course digital trigger "engine" do fine interpolation between true sample points for fine adjust waveform to trigger time position. I do not know any DSO what do not have this. There is differences how perfect it is done and how many data points are generated by interpolation (aka "oversampling") between true sampled points. In siglent there can use 500MSa/s and 1ns/div (true sample interval 2 div (2ns)). With 1ns/div every true sample interval is 50 pixel on screen (20ps/pixel).  Using fast mode dots, lines or Sinc I can not detect waveform time position displacement jitter in trigger position. (exept of course what come from possible noise).



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519380;image)
First run using fast acquisition (normal) and dots only. When it is running dots mode is ok due to enough acquisitions with random time position dots in one TFT frame (looks around same as random time ETS). Here also turned persistence on. For show trace after stop. Then stopped. Now visible is only last acquisition dots highlighted.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 10, 2018, 10:24:00 am
Does the trigger circuitry do sin(x)/x.

It makes sense to do heavy pre-conditioning of the signal before trigger process, otherwise it would be indeed a complete mess. rig(x)/x => [trigger =>] sin(x)/x. So if there are two passes of heavy conditioning it explains why response becomes so aggressive at low sample counts.

I have not seen problems in Rigol1kZ digital trigger engine  fine interpolation system between true sample points for positioning waveform if also think its own performance and price category in this question. Fine adjusting acquisition time position works quite well when I have used it (note: it have fastest display time base 5ns/div). (very old FW / HW what I have used 2014-2015).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 10, 2018, 10:50:47 am
I have not seen problems in Rigol1kZ digital trigger engine  fine interpolation system between true sample points for positioning waveform if also think its own performance and price category in this question.

Nobody is talking about problems with trigger engine. Question is on what it triggers. Fungus just reported that sample points downloadable from memory correlate with Sinc=ON|OFF in GUI. So they cannot be true "analog" sample points in principle. Yet trigger is working just fine. So can only conclude that substantial pre-processing by whatever means is taking place before trigger (which is digital AFAIK).
Pre-processing to compensate for frontend imperfections is not uncommon practice. What is uncommon is implementation at hand where instead of approximating ideal analog frontend response various weirdness takes place.

Some outtakes from literature:
https://community.keysight.com/community/keysight-blogs/oscilloscopes/blog/2017/02/22/real-time-or-sampling-oscilloscope-key-comparisons (https://community.keysight.com/community/keysight-blogs/oscilloscopes/blog/2017/02/22/real-time-or-sampling-oscilloscope-key-comparisons)
Quote
Frequency response is another key consideration in your selection criteria. Sampling oscilloscopes do not use digital signal processing (DSP) correction, so the frequency response rolls off slowly and looks more Gaussian in shape. Real-time oscilloscopes can implement DSP to correct their frequency response. For instance, Keysight’s S-Series oscilloscope has a very flat frequency response across its bandwidth, which means its gain will not vary by more than 1 dB across the entire band.

And what we see with Rigol? Response clumsily approximating flat on higher voltage ranges. Also "screen sampling" technology is clumsy copy of Keysight tech*. It would be all ok it frequency response would be uniform and predictable across all vertical ranges and post-processing modes.

Extra content:
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:7513/FULLTEXT01.pdf (http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:7513/FULLTEXT01.pdf)
Post-Correction of Analog-to-Digital Converters (http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:7513/FULLTEXT01.pdf)

Quote
Post-correction of A/D Converters
Error correction of ADCs has received increasing attention during the
last two decades. Several methods have been proposed and evaluated
during this time, e.g., [HSP00, LASH02a, IHK91, Mou89, TL97, Hum02,
RI87, Iro86]. These methods have in common that the ADC to be corrected
is treated as a closed entity, i.e., internal signals and states of the
ADC are not available, and the calibration and correction methods must
operate outside of the converter. Moreover, the correction is dependent
on the output signal x(n) of the ADC to be corrected. That is, the
correction is an operation incorporated after the ADC, hence the name
post-correction.

In this chapter we will first review some of the ADC post-correction
methods that have been proposed in the past. This will then lead to the
introduction of a generalized post-correction method.
We are mainly concerned with look-up table correction methods.
These are, as the name suggests, methods that produce a corrected ADC
output value through the use of a look-up table (or possibly several tables
– see Chapter 5 for a scheme incorporating two look-up tables),
where pre-calculated values are stored. A distinction between static and
dynamic correction is made. If the correction for a sample x(n) is a function
only of the value x(n), i.e., not depending on past or future samples,
signal derivatives, signal frequency, etc., then the correction is said to be
static. Else, it is said to be dynamic.

* *SOX3000T seem to deliver about 20kpts horizontal for calculus
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 10, 2018, 01:01:03 pm
Fungus just reported that sample points downloadable from memory correlate with Sinc=ON|OFF in GUI. So they cannot be true "analog" sample points in principle.

That doesn't mean they aren't "true analog sample points" in ADC memory, only that we haven't found a way to access an unprocessed version of them.

can only conclude that substantial pre-processing by whatever means is taking place before trigger (which is digital AFAIK).

Nope, completely wrong

Trigger units work in parallel with the ADC to generate a horizontal timing offset for aligning waveforms on screen. That's it.

It's easy to demonstrate, here's a pulse in dot mode:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519464;image)

Here's another capture of the pulse. Notice that the dots aren't in the same horizontal positions - they've been offset in that axis using timing information from the trigger unit:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519542;image)

Finally, here's a whole bunch of them, overlaid. There's captures at many different times but they all line up and overlay beautifully, no horizontal difference between each capture:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519476;image)

If the signal was being reconstructed as you claim there would always be a dot exactly on the horizontal trigger position.

The third image (dots at every possible horizontal position) would also be impossible.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 10, 2018, 01:30:57 pm
Fungus just reported that sample points downloadable from memory correlate with Sinc=ON|OFF in GUI. So they cannot be true "analog" sample points in principle.

That doesn't mean they aren't "true analog sample points" in ADC memory, only that we haven't found a way to access an unprocessed version of them.

can only conclude that substantial pre-processing by whatever means is taking place before trigger (which is digital AFAIK).

Nope, completely wrong

Trigger units work in parallel with the ADC to generate a horizontal timing offset for aligning waveforms on screen. That's it.

It's easy to demonstrate, here's a pulse in dot mode:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519464;image)

Here's another capture of the pulse. Notice that the dots aren't in the same horizontal positions - they've been offset in that axis using timing information from the trigger unit:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519542;image)

Finally, here's a whole bunch of them, overlaid. There's captures at many different times but they all line up and overlay beautifully, no horizontal difference between each wave:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519476;image)

If the signal was being reconstructed for display (as you claim) then there would always be a dot exactly on the horizontal trigger position and the third image (dots at every possible horizontal position) would be impossible.

And now, turn off Sinc and this Gibbs phenomenon disappear (because it is not in real input signal and produced by Sinc interpolation. And in these cases Sinc do not reconstruct true input signal right (even in theory it can not, rules are included in theory) . (Gibbs "ear" is not error, it is Sinc interpolation normal "feature" specially if input signal violate rules))
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 10, 2018, 02:01:26 pm
And now, turn off Sinc and this Gibbs phenomenon disappear (because it is not in real input signal and produced by Sinc interpolation. And in these cases Sinc do not reconstruct true input signal right (even in theory it can not, rules are included in theory) . (Gibbs "ear" is not error, it is Sinc interpolation normal "feature" specially if input signal violate rules))

The wobble on screen isn't just the Gibbs phenomenon, it's mostly ringing from looking at an Arduino pin through a crappy piece of breadboard wire.

I can turn sinc on/off and there's some difference on screen. It's most visible in the preshoot, here's a couple of captures:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519737;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519743;image)

Maybe you've accidentally hit on the reason why Rigol decided to enable the "sinc on/off" button when you get to the extremes, ie. to see how much Gibbs is on screen.  :-+

And, yes, Wolfie, we know it's not truly "off" - no reconstruction at all would display a horrible mess on screen.

There's a pretty curve on screen so they must be doing a different reconstruction (ie. not sin(x)/x) that produces a nice display but minimizes the Gibbs Effect.

I think we might finally be getting to the bottom of the Rigol "sinc" mystery (and why there's no truly "raw" data available).



Edit: Just for completeness, here's the same pulse with only 2 channels enabled on the 'scope. The sin(x)/x button is disabled now (no longer needed - we have twice as many samples available so Gibbs phenomenon isn't a problem).
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519947;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 10, 2018, 02:23:33 pm
I think we might finally be getting to the bottom of the Rigol "sinc" mystery (and why there's no truly "raw" data available).

Having said that, there might be genuinely raw data inside 'wfm' files. I haven't explored those yet - it would be a lot of work.

Those files have to load and redisplay exactly what was on screen previously.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 10, 2018, 04:33:08 pm
Heres trivial dynamic ADC post corrector simulation:

A-(A[0.000000003]-A[0.000000002])-(A[-0.000000003]-A[-0.000000002])

This formula works for 1GSa/s. A is active channel. Brackets contain sample location in time.
For this test I physically suppressed scope analog bandwidth for more dramatic effect. Blue is original signal. Cyan is simulated ADC post corrector. Linear interpolation (excuse lots of environmental noise).

Relatively sharp edge: Can see something reminiscent of sin(x)/x interpolation, nothing too dramatic. Better risetime.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519821)

Relatively blunt edge: Effects even more subtle.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519827)

Square with blunt edges: Leaves impression of better "reconstruction", level somewhat rises.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519833)

Full bandwidth sweep with sine: Dramatic "bandwidth boost" effect in analog response rolloff region.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519839)

All left to do is apply 100MHz LowPass filter (indigo trace). Note measured risetimes.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519851)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 10, 2018, 05:49:40 pm
Here less exaggerated example:

A-(A[0.000000001]-A)-(A[-0.000000001]-A)

Tuned response more-less flat from 0 to 100MHz on non-suppressed scope. Visual cost is those little sin(x)/x like corners.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519929)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=519935)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 10, 2018, 07:19:56 pm
Why are these numbers subtly different from the .csv numbers?

How subtle?

I've converted the differences between the two datasets into raw ADC values and they're all less than one ADC step (the majority are less than half an ADC step).

nb. One ADC step is exactly two pixels on screen so in physical terms the majority of differences between RAW and .csv are less than a pixel.

Seems like some sort of a rounding error to me. Maybe csv is done with fixed-point math.


Conclusion: RAW data is slightly better but using CSV isn't a real problem.

You mean if less than 3 channels are active?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 10, 2018, 07:53:09 pm
Maybe you've accidentally hit on the reason why Rigol decided to enable the "sinc on/off" button when you get to the extremes, ie. to see how much Gibbs is on screen.  :-+

To find out on what it triggers on you might isolate exact "virtual" part of wfm that could be attributed to mr Gibbs and try to trigger on that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 10, 2018, 08:31:07 pm
Triggering is completely digital however it is probably done in two stages:

1. First the FPGA detects a trigger with no or a minimum of interpolation and transfers the acquisition to the processor without any sin(x)/x interpolation.

2. The processors then resolves the actual horizontal trigger position after interpolation and aligns the acquisition in the display record.  DSOs with analog triggering skip the first part of this because they already know the horizontal trigger position to high resolution but they still need to align the acquisition record with the display record.

DPO style DSOs have to resolve the interpolated trigger to generate a histogram which is then sent to the processor.  The DS1000Z and most DSOs do this in the processor instead of the FPGA or other logic leading to a marked different in acquisition rate.

Didn't the DS1000Z series AC trigger coupling bug reveal something about how the trigger interpolation was done?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 07:50:57 am
Conclusion: RAW data is slightly better but using CSV isn't a real problem.

You mean if less than 3 channels are active?

I mean that using the CSV format is just as good as grabbing the data over LAN with DSRemote (or whatever).

The real problem here is the assumption that you'll get the "best" data by zooming in, switching to dots mode then saving those 15 points of data.

That simply isn't true.

If you don't understand why that is, watch the video again until you do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM)

My advice for recording time-aligned pulse inputs on 4 channels simultaneously would be:
Leave the DS1054Z in normal mode (not dots), zoom in, turn sin(x)/x off, then save the 'screen' data. By saving 1200 values you'll avoid the temptation to draw straight lines between sample points in Excel and trying to draw conclusions from that (take note, Wolfie!)

OTOH needing to record 4 time-aligned pulses simultaneously seems an unlikely scenario to me. Much better to use 2 channels (500MSamp./sec., Nyquist at 250Mhz) or 1 channel (Nyquist at 500Mhz, probably perfect reconstruction of everything that gets through the front end).

Why should you turn sin(x)/x off when 4 channels are enabled?
Sampling theory tells us that 250MSamples/sec can only reproduce signals up to 125MHz. If there's anything above frequency that in the input signal then we start to see aliasing, Gibbs phenomenon, etc.

A Rigol DS1104Z doesn't have a brickwall filter at 125MHz, it has a -3dB point at about 130MHz (measured) and there's still visible signal well above 300MHz.

These high frequency components will distort the signal, as shown here:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520388;image)

Rigol has been a bit "naughty". When you push the button to turn off sin(x)/x it does stop doing sin(x)/x, yes, but a different reconstruction filter is used instead. This filter does a reasonable job of removing Gibbs artifacts from what you see on screen, as seen here:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520394;image)

What it does NOT do is show the raw sample points. (Why not? Watch the video again....)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 11, 2018, 07:59:08 am
...but can you trigger on that supposed sin(x)/x distortion (specifically over- or undershoot)? If no then Sinc=OFF shows true analog bw and is not a filter of sorts (like some say). If yes plot thickens :P
Possible you need little more sharper signal or just sine at 100MHz or so.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 08:33:05 am
...but can you trigger on that supposed sin(x)/x distortion (specifically over- or undershoot)?

No.

If yes plot thickens

Sorry to disappoint you.

Triggering is completely digital...

Maybe they use the other filter (the one that appears when you turn sin(x)/x off).

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 11, 2018, 08:47:25 am
...but can you trigger on that supposed sin(x)/x distortion (specifically over- or undershoot)?
No.

Very interesting, but can you trigger on something that over or under (eg not visible) supposed Gibbs-suppressor filter, or it trigges just fine exactly on Sinc=OFF trace?
If it trigger exactly on trace then my original test might have shown approximation of true analog bw because no way one can rise amplitude so much with just regular sin(x)/x, in fact sin(x)/x should not rise amplitude at all (surely <0.5dB):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520421)

So the general idea would be finding out true analog amplitude that scope sees using trigger.
We already know it is below Sinc=ON trace, so it cannot be trusted for true analog bw measurement.
Question remaining, is it at Sinc=OFF trace or somewhere between.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 09:10:09 am
Very interesting, but can you trigger on something that over or under (eg not visible) supposed Gibbs-suppressor filter

I can do much better than that:

I set the thing up so that the peak goes either side of a horizontal grid line when you turn sin(x)/x on/off, eg.:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520436;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520442;image)

Now if I move the trigger point up to to that grid line I lose trigger when I turn sin(x)/x off:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520448;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520454;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 11, 2018, 09:21:17 am
I can do much better than that:

I set the thing up so that the peak goes either side of a horizontal grid line when you turn sin(x)/x on/off, eg.:

Very good. So it seems truth is somewhere in between. Of course would be correct to check with good signal gen to plot actual response. Currently I would conclude that there is something more going with Sinc=ON than just regular Sinc. Sinc=OFF is filter and it needs to be because they cannot suppress effects of possible ADC post corrector otherwise. Interestingly enough my experimental derivative-based bandwidth boosting post correction looks much like Sinc.

Edit: I had a brain short circuit, what your test did show that it does not trigger in between. :palm: Guess too little coffee in the morning.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 09:33:16 am
Even better...

If you switch to dots mode and push the trigger upwards towards the peak, it only triggers when one of the physical sample points is above the trigger line.

This limits the number of horizontal positions where it can trigger and you get this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520484;image)

I can't believe nobody ever posted that before. Am I finding out more about DSOs in ten minutes of playing than you did with two years of drawing graphs in Excel?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 11, 2018, 09:40:34 am
If you switch to dots mode and push the trigger upwards towards the peak, it only triggers when one of the physical sample points is above the trigger line.

Just to be sure, so this is with Sinc=OFF, yes?
Or does it trigger off virtual points with Sinc=ON as well (I do seem to remember that it moved points with Sinc=ON).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 09:48:01 am
Just to be sure, so this is with Sinc=OFF, yes?

I can do the same thing in both modes.

(but I need a different trigger level for each one because the peak moves up/down when I switch between them)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 11, 2018, 10:01:47 am
(but I need a different trigger level for each one because the peak moves up/down when I switch between them)

Ok so it triggers off virtual sample points, since analog signal = const. ADC post corrector confirmed IMHO. It's probably deep down in secret core lair and cannot be turned off. To make it look more like regular scope they use Sinc=OFF feature, which is indeed just a filter then to suppress suspicious wfm features. But they overdid it all a little. Both post corrector and suppressor.
Or you have any other explanation?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 10:26:50 am
To make it look more like regular scope they use Sinc=OFF feature, which is indeed just a filter then to suppress suspicious wfm features.

What's a "regular scope"?

I've already posted examples of other 'scopes that don't really turn off sin(x)/x.

But they overdid it all a little. Both post corrector and suppressor.

Why?
a) It looks like it works to me.
b) You can only see it on in extreme settings where Gibbs might be a real factor. Everywhere else you see sin(x)/x.

The only problem I see is that it frustrates people who make assumptions about what "regular scopes" are then try to characterize based on those assumptions. They might get incorrect results, yes.  :popcorn:

For everybody else? No problems.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 11, 2018, 10:49:16 am
What's a "regular scope"?

One with dots staying put and good for further (custom) DSP.

For everybody else? No problems.

No need to get all defensive. Originally I did come to this forum for sound advice, even described my early day hardships:

Quote
Afterwards started building some experimental analog contraption involving heavily non-linear components. When started testing almost went mad. It did not produce designed signals no matter what I did, non-linearities were all wrong. For days I debugged and tested and calculated until finally I found the culprit deep in the PS software menus... Sin(x)/x on by default. After switching it OFF discovered that contraption was working as designed from the day 1. So maybe one can get away with 2.5 samples per wfm (PS actually had 4 at max freq, all ch in use) for very well known situations... but for heavily experimental stuff only thing that counts is raw data, period. When you start replacing raw data with math fantasy you usually get string theory or something, not maglev trains :)

So I got owned even by classical sin(x)/x. When I bought DS1054Z had no idea that there is no raw data accessible and even sin(x)/x is with a twist. This seemed so weird I got interested how contraption works and did run some tests. Sold it after 2 months so no wonder it took a little to finally find out all the little details w/o having scope at hand :)

But... In my early-early days when I had 25MHz scope all I did was tinker some electrical motors and never needed anything over 100kHz so even that scope was overkill. Rigol would have been entirely ok for that job also. So it all depends what you do, what you want to learn about etc. So it is helpful when there is objective info around not just Like vs Dislike more suitable for knitting club type activity.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 11:03:01 am
What's a "regular scope"?
One with dots staying put and good for further (custom) DSP.

Watch the video again, those dots will be aliased, therefore lies.

Dots are only true when the input signal is bandwidth limited (brick wall) to the Nyquist frequency. That isn't the case here.

(nor on a Siglent SDS1204X-E with all four channels on).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 11, 2018, 11:17:25 am
Watch the video again, those dots will be aliased, therefore lies.

Not really. Look wonders of DSP here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1299041/#msg1299041 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1299041/#msg1299041)

I'm was able to extract pretty sound normalized amplitude and fuzzy unsigned phase (!) data on 25MHz scope running at 781.3kS/s eg most severely aliased. Plot is from 0 to 100MHz done on some notch filter. It is jolly good fun to learn DSP hands on directly in scope software doing wild stuff.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/?action=dlattach;attach=349834)

Of course one could do this on any scope having access to raw data, just on most scopes not directly in GUI. Might try how high new 100MHz scope goes. 400MHz sounds about right.

For reference, here is abstract notch filter, so my phase plot is sound just unsigned.
(https://de.mathworks.com/help/examples/control_featured/win64/notchdemo_01.png)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 11, 2018, 11:23:49 am
Very interesting, but can you trigger on something that over or under (eg not visible) supposed Gibbs-suppressor filter

I can do much better than that:

I set the thing up so that the peak goes either side of a horizontal grid line when you turn sin(x)/x on/off, eg.:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520436;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520442;image)

Now if I move the trigger point up to to that grid line I lose trigger when I turn sin(x)/x off:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520448;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520454;image)

Why you show all images using  16 waveform average. It is nice to see this  first image with example 1s persistence on and without averaging.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 11:45:36 am
Why you show all images using  16 waveform average.

Because that's the optimal setting? :-//

(and it's what it was set to, yesterday). 

It is nice to see this  first image with example 1s persistence on and without averaging.

If you insist:

(images removed because they mostly show problems in my crappy probing, not the characteristics of the oscilloscope)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 11, 2018, 12:42:04 pm


Edit: Here's the same thing with sin(x)/x off. Triggering is much tighter:


I'm not sure what conclusions can be drawn with my really crappy probing though.

What you mean triggering is much tighter. I can not see any difference.

Of course it show much much more than average. Average may hide example even very high corners wobbling (if exist) due to aliasing and or Sinc filter produced.
Without average we can see roughly this amount and it can see there but looks like it is around ok range.
Also can see that without Sinc there is not so much wobbling in corners and edges upside and downside from trig level. Also this is normal ok. This is one reason why it is good that oscilloscope can always turn to true sample dots without any interpolation (poormans partially emulated RIS mode what is good for some kind of waveforms where Sinc is not best  and vice versa.) (of course separate trigger engine interpolation is working if or when it exists independent of displayed wfm interpolation) endependent of what example Keysight say or advertise or produce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 01:41:07 pm
What you mean triggering is much tighter. I can not see any difference.

(image removed)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 11, 2018, 03:10:01 pm
What you mean triggering is much tighter. I can not see any difference.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520640;image)

This reason is of course not trigger.

These images are details from previous images where trigger level is around screen center line (in these original full images trigger level is 3.48V). Trigger is there and there can not see differences in trigger jitter in trigger level position. This what you see in image (red circles) is normal "corner wobbling".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 03:49:01 pm
This reason is of course not trigger.

OK, a big part of that signal seems to be my horrible probing. I poked the bottom of the Arduino with the probe instead of clipping onto a the Dupont wire and it all got better.

Images have been removed to avoid wrong conclusions. If nobody steps up with a proper pulse generator+BNC then I might try again later with the little probe spring directly onto the AVR chip.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 11, 2018, 04:17:38 pm
Back in the day I got pretty ok results probing it like this, two silvered wires stuck into header so they would lock with probe for hands free operation:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/?action=dlattach;attach=278466;image)

With ground lead:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/?action=dlattach;attach=278468;image)

Without ground lead, attachment with wires:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/?action=dlattach;attach=278470;image)

Interesting detail, wobbly wfm feature steepens rise!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 11, 2018, 04:38:46 pm
Conclusion: RAW data is slightly better but using CSV isn't a real problem.

You mean if less than 3 channels are active?

I mean that using the CSV format is just as good as grabbing the data over LAN with DSRemote (or whatever).


Well, I have not used those tools, but you're saying the result is the same? Data is shifted half a screen late and you missed half the pulse? That's really all I am saying. I'm not using dots (which does not matter) or zoom (whatever that really means, it's in full screen default mode). I already understand your other points, but that's not mine. If I use a wider pulse and decrease sweep speed, it seems to work fine, but that was just a glance to see that the pulse was close enough to where it should be in the record set.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 11, 2018, 04:41:10 pm
This reason is of course not trigger.

OK, a big part of that signal seems to be my horrible probing. I poked the bottom of the Arduino with the probe instead of clipping onto a the Dupont wire and it all got better.

Images have been removed to avoid wrong conclusions. If nobody steps up with a proper pulse generator+BNC then I might try again later with the little probe spring directly onto the AVR chip.

This "horrible" probing is not at all what I look. I can filter these kind of things out from thinking and look important  things what I think are  trigger jitter and alising and fact that of course it can not do ideal Sinc reconstruction what is not even suitable in practical oscilloscope because reconstruction need be fast and only over some true sampled points. And what I see there, there is signs of corners wobbling (one form of aliasing) and perhaps tiny part of Gibbs but then (not my thinking but you told) most parts of overshoot is in your signal.

These example images are old and not at all for compare. These are from "theory and practice lesson" where I try simply way demonstrate things not at all if scope is good or bad etc but common principles. (and not even perfectly if think scalability to more speed without also BW scaling accordingly).
Yes these are made using 1us sample period. No matter. It can scale..   Reason was just that I can very accurate control rise and fall times etc and range is well below BW so that sure enough harmonics are there and I know enough sure what ADC really see.
Important is. Risetime 3.5us fall time 1us. Sampling period 1us. Of course fall have strong alias but also there is 3.5 sample in rising edge and also there can see some corner wobble.
If rise and fall is 1.5 sample period corners wobble reduce lot of.


(http://siglent.fi/pub8S/SDS1000X/YLETIE/SDS00043-3500-1000-2k-dots.png)
1 without any interpolation and acquisition slow so that just single acq samples are highlighted and previous acquistions  are only stored by persistence (and every acquisition data points in random time shift interleaved because no sync with ADC clock so finally it produce continuous line).  Rise 3.5 and fall 1 sample interval. (in fast mode of course it generate  lot of more dots to every sequential TFT frame)


(http://siglent.fi/pub8S/SDS1000X/YLETIE/SDS00052-3500-1000-2k-linesSinc.png)
2 same with Sinc interpolation lines between dots on. Acq slow. (one acg per frame)
rise 3.5 and  fall 1 sample interval (as can see result is... high amount sinc produced...)


(http://siglent.fi/pub8S/SDS1000X/YLETIE/SDS00031-1500-1500-2k-linesSinc.png)
3. Sinc as image 2 and rise and fall 1.5 sample interval. Corners wobbling but lot of less than if rise or fall is 1 sample interval.

These effects can also detect in your images (quite sure) and they looks just normal. (sampling interval 4ns).
 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 04:57:39 pm
Well, I have not used those tools, but you're saying the result is the same? Data is shifted half a screen late and you missed half the pulse?

Yep.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 11, 2018, 05:35:16 pm
Well, I have a vague recollection that Karel posted something about horizontal position being incorrect. Not sure if related to this issue. It can't be good. I can turn on my PG this evening, briefly. It's still connected too.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 06:05:54 pm
And what I see there, there is signs of corners wobbling (one form of aliasing) and perhaps tiny part of Gibbs

There's 130Mhz+ of signal going into something with Nyquist limit of 125Mhz. You can't expect perfection (or zero wobble!)


PS: What's going on at these corners?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520850;image)



Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on September 11, 2018, 06:31:48 pm
This is turning into a "scopology" thread...

Time for me to unsubscribe from this thread,
and maybe time for some of you to take on an electronics project for a change?  :P
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 11, 2018, 07:26:51 pm
and maybe time for some of you to take on an electronics project for a change?  :P

You mean physically sniffing on Rigol's ADC ? :-/O Excellent idea, doubt that much more intel can be milked out from ack data ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on September 11, 2018, 07:37:30 pm
And what I see there, there is signs of corners wobbling (one form of aliasing) and perhaps tiny part of Gibbs

There's 130Mhz+ of signal going into something with Nyquist limit of 125Mhz. You can't expect perfection (or zero wobble!)


PS: What's going on at these corners?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520850;image)
Previous raw data points (Dot mode) plus persistence.
Only can be done with a waveform source with low jitter and in true real dots mode.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 07:38:04 pm
This is turning into a "scopology" thread...

Time for me to unsubscribe from this thread,

I think I'm done now.

I've learned a bit more about my DS1054Z.

(and I'm still perfectly happy with it!)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2018, 07:47:42 pm
Previous raw data points (Dot mode) plus persistence.
Only can be done with a waveform source with low jitter and in true real dots mode.

OK, so a bit like this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520913;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on September 11, 2018, 08:09:54 pm
Previous raw data points (Dot mode) plus persistence.
Only can be done with a waveform source with low jitter and in true real dots mode.

OK, so a bit like this:
......Pic.............
Yep, probing technique excused.  ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 12, 2018, 12:11:38 am
PS: What's going on at these corners?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520850;image)

I wasn't expecting such square corners. Is that what's expected? How close do we think these devices are representing the actual pulse waveform? Here is another sample.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 12, 2018, 12:23:28 am
I noticed my levels were way off. This is about the minimum level out of my old analog datapulse.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 12, 2018, 05:25:39 am
PS: What's going on at these corners?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520850;image)

I wasn't expecting such square corners. Is that what's expected? How close do we think these devices are representing the actual pulse waveform?

They are as in images show as exactly as can see in image. But, perhaps you forget read my original explanation about these example images. These are picked up from my "teaching" material where images can compare with each others (not for compare different equipment) for understand and see how things change related to sampling interval time and changes speed in signal. For this purpose I have made these using very low frequencies and then different interpolation and without and using different rise and fall times related to sampling interval time. With this method can go out from probing and analog front end and signal generator performance and look alone things what are handled in "lesson".
Why these images are here.
For show how corners wobbling is normal effect and exist also in Fungus image (what he have removed) and whjat are just normal due to his used sample interval, risetime and using Sinc interpolation. There eye can easy isolate these phenommenons and not mix these with trigger interpolation and acquisition fine adjust to right time position.

Previously:
Quote from: Fungus
Here's the same thing with sin(x)/x off. Triggering is much tighter:

I'm not sure what conclusions can be drawn with my really crappy probing though.

Quote from: rf-loop
This reason is of course not trigger.

OK, a big part of that signal seems to be my horrible probing. I poked the bottom of the Arduino with the probe instead of clipping onto a the Dupont wire and it all got better.

Images have been removed to avoid wrong conclusions. If nobody steps up with a proper pulse generator+BNC then I might try again later with the little probe spring directly onto the AVR chip.

This "horrible" probing is not at all what I look. I can filter these kind of things out from thinking and look important  things what I think are  trigger jitter and alising and fact that of course it can not do ideal Sinc reconstruction what is not even suitable in practical oscilloscope because reconstruction need be fast and only over some true sampled points. And what I see there, there is signs of corners wobbling (one form of aliasing) and perhaps tiny part of Gibbs but then (not my thinking but you told) most parts of overshoot is in your signal.

These example images are old and not at all for compare. These are from "theory and practice lesson" where I try simply way demonstrate things not at all if scope is good or bad etc but common principles. (and not even perfectly if think scalability to more speed without also BW scaling accordingly).
Yes these are made using 1us sample period. No matter. It can scale..   Reason was just that I can very accurate control rise and fall times etc and range is well below BW so that sure enough harmonics are there and I know enough sure what ADC really see.
Important is. Risetime 3.5us fall time 1us. Sampling period 1us. Of course fall have strong alias but also there is 3.5 sample in rising edge and also there can see some corner wobble.
If rise and fall is 1.5 sample period corners wobble reduce lot of.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 07:30:56 am
I wasn't expecting such square corners. Is that what's expected? How close do we think these devices are representing the actual pulse waveform? Here is another sample.

Note that the sample rate in that image is only 1Msa/s and it's not a pulse (it's a slope). The reason the corners are so square is because of the huge bandwidth discrepancy between the analog bandwidth of that oscilloscope and the sampling rate being used (1000:1 ratio). This gives it the equivalent of a brickwall filter on the input.

ie. It's a sales demo, deliberately staged to fool people (and to be difficult to reproduce at home).

In this image the input is a much faster pulse and sample rate is 250Msa/s, you have input frequences well above the analog bandwidth of the front end, etc. That's why it isn't square.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521048;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 10:14:05 am
As promised I re-did those images using the spring clip directly onto the pins of the AVR chip (Arduino Uno, DIP-28 package). Ringing is much reduced(!)

Here's sin(x)/x on/off in dots mode. Four channels enabled, 250MSa/s:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521261;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521255;image)

With better probing, sin(x)/s ON seems to show less Gibbs than OFF. With bad probing it was the other way around. Go figure.



For reference, this is how much ringing there was with breadboard wires poked into the edge connector:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=520913;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 12, 2018, 10:16:23 am

Note that the sample rate in that image is only 1Msa/s and it's not a pulse (it's a slope). The reason the corners are so square is because of the huge bandwidth discrepancy between the analog bandwidth of that oscilloscope and the sampling rate being used (1000:1 ratio). This gives it the equivalent of a brickwall filter on the input.

ie. It's a sales demo, deliberately staged to fool people (and to be difficult to reproduce at home).


No. It is NOT sales demo at all. What you win with this kind of bullshit. Perhaps I know better whjat I have done than you. So please do not explain some your own story about what I have done and why.
You can not read what I previously told about these images nature and what for these images are.
If you want see original material where from they are you perhaps understand better they are not at all sales demo purpose.

But this material where from images are is finnish language so you can not understand it due to fact that finnish language is like "enigma" for example google translator. And I have also explained previously why I pick up these images here. If you really do not understand then tell it directly that you did not understand instead if this indirect way tell same.

This (http://www.siglent.fi/oscilloscope-digital-aliasing-sampling.html) (one part) of "teaching" material for peoples who do not have so much knowledge about digital oscilloscopes. Some kind of common bottom entry level information. Examples are made using Siglent but all these can do using nearly what ever this era entry level digital oscilloscope.

Send me this your Rigol I do same with it and then change these images if you are then more happy.

"This gives it the equivalent of a brickwall filter on the input."

Then this is total bullshit. It tell that you really do not understand. This acts just opposite. Related to sampling speed now analog BW before ADC is nearly like super wide so that ADC can see (and there is used it) up to very high over Nyquist. (also I have explained why I want ADC can see lot of over Nyquist...

We need know things but more important is also understand things.  Thinking is still not old-fashioned though we have youtube and internet and are able to see a lot of things without thinking about anything.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 10:18:44 am
I didn't mean "sales demo" in the literal sense. I meant "deliberately chosen parameters" to show the best possible result.

Maybe I was too subtle. I apologize.

Related to sampling speed now analog BW before ADC is nearly like super wide so that ADC can see (and there is used it) up to very high over Nyquist. (also I have explained why I want ADC can see lot of over Nyquist...

Maybe it's a language thing, this is what I meant. This is the reason the corners are nice and square compared to the other image that was posted.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 10:24:53 am
For completeness, here is the same probing with less channels enabled.

One channel:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521267;image)

Two channels:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521273;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 12, 2018, 11:11:45 am
Could what Fungus is doing considered as oversampling? Otherwise it is quite weird that rise time stays ~const (on all Sinc=ON examples).

If Photoshop a little rf-loop example it can be seen that averaged low-samplerate ack could not ever match true risetime:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521297;image)

Same seen here. Top one is heavy oversampling, bottom is persistence on non-oversampled. Averaging bottom one would not result in top one.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521303;image)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 11:32:48 am
Could what Fungus is doing considered as oversampling?

Me? I'm not doing anything.

Otherwise it is quite weird that rise time stays ~const (on all Sinc=ON examples).

Isn't that what sinc filter is for?  :popcorn:

Edit: Maybe that's the true rise time of a pin on an Arduino Uno after all the capacitances, etc. have been taken into account. We need somebody with a better oscilloscope to measure one.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 12, 2018, 11:47:10 am
Isn't that what sinc filter is for?  :popcorn:

If you look then in rf-loop example Sinc is ON yet averaging it could not result in true trace. Same seen on ETS+RTS scopes: ETS with ludicrous sample rate gives some margin over no-matter-how-good-sinced RTS. I'm sure there must be some theoretical explanation behind this...

(https://uk.mathworks.com/help/examples/matlab_featured/win64/xfourier_04.png)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 12:26:00 pm
If you look then in rf-loop example Sinc is ON yet averaging it could not result in true trace.

Of course not. The signal isn't bandwidth limited to the Nyquist cutoff at that sample rate.

The error in the reconstructed signal (due to aliasing/Gibbs) will be slightly different for each horizontal sample position, yes?

So... you get this if you reconstruct the signal at every horizontal sample position then overlay all the images:
(http://siglent.fi/pub8S/SDS1000X/YLETIE/SDS00052-3500-1000-2k-linesSinc.png)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 12, 2018, 01:27:20 pm
This is the reason the corners are nice and square compared to the other image that was posted.

And in my first message with these images I emphasised that they are not for compare... 
Only what can compare are my two images with each others and note how things change when samplinc period time/risetime ratio change.

Also you told
Quote from: Fungus
(and to be difficult to reproduce at home)
How this can be difficult. There is nothing difficult at all. If this is difficult then...<advance censored>.
Just simple basic simple generator and basic simple scope, one cable and turn knobs.

Btw, trigger jitter (when signal violate Nyquist rules etc) is other question  but is was not shown with these two images. It start seriously rise when signal risetime what ADC can see is around equal or more if clearly less than sample period. Also this is natural (and makes full digital side trigger engine different if compare good analog side pathway trigger system in DSO/DPO  it can nearly say (least if we talk today entry and middle level realtime digital scopes)
This can say is nearly like some kind of "achilles heel" of this kind digital side trigger system, not problem if user understand and can avoid this kind of situations in use or least that he recognize this situation)
In some special cases true dots mode can help, depending how its is implemented in system. But these are perhaps somehow explained in future in "lesson 2" if nothing more important is in "to do" list.

I want oscilloscope where is "brick wall style" filter in analog side (what is only place for it. It can not be in digital side) so that corner frequency is automatically (or manually selectable) adjusted with current sample rate and what user can switch on or off and stay with common "gaussian type" BW.

example about undersampling and Sinc horizontal time jitter (one kind of trigger jitter)
and other image same signal same trig but dots (randomly interleaving acquisitions, not ETS) and waveform shape and positioning without huge jitter)
This is why it is good to have opportunity to always turn all interpolations off (exept trigger engine internal "what ever"...). Just because only real data what we have are true sample points level and time and nothing else. Independent of what Keysight or who ever talks. There money talks.
In images of course they are still images so they do not looks same (specially dots mode) as it looks when human brain+eye handle sequential TFT frames. (also intensity gradation process have less position collisions in dots mode so it can not produce same as Sinc or Linear. But scope is tool, not for beautiful images generator.)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 01:32:25 pm
How this can be difficult. There is nothing difficult at all. If this is difficult then...<advance censored>.
Just simple basic simple generator and basic simple scope, one cable and turn knobs.

I don't have such a generator, most hobbyists don't.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 01:39:18 pm
This is why it is good to have opportunity to always turn all interpolations off (exept trigger engine internal "what ever"...). Just because only real data what we have are true sample points level and time and nothing else. Independent of what Keysight or who ever talks. There money talks.

Even a sinc function will show square corners on a slow signal like that if you use the full 1GSa/sec.

Even at 100MSa/s there will be 99 more samples between each dot in the image, sinc will be fine with that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 12, 2018, 01:48:54 pm


If Photoshop a little rf-loop example it can be seen that averaged low-samplerate ack could not ever match true risetime:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521297;image)



What averaged?  There is nothing averaged. Bright sinc is just one random acquistion and scope draw (do)
 Sinc interpolation using just last acquisition data. It is not average. (btw, in scope there is selection, acquisition mode fast or slow) and then behind there is persistence what show all area where these single Sinc interpolated waveforms have been in persistence collecting time.  (and same principle in dots mode. Bright dots are just one (last) acquisition and persistence have collected more)

But it is not at all good to make this kind of analyze from these images. These are not made for analyze signals. These are made for explannate how scope works in basics and for this we need simplified situations before go to more high details in theory and real practice. You know... most easy way climb a tree is starting from ground.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 12, 2018, 01:57:15 pm
What averaged?  There is nothing averaged.

I never said there is, but if it would be, then fall would be less steep than actual signal.
Never mind I'm already firing up most of my gear to do some checks.
Interesting stuff.

Disclaimer before anyone gets agitated again: Z is ok for tinkering with Arduino. Discussion is about (quite large) differences between scopes when start pushing it to the limit eg move far beyond Arduino.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 12, 2018, 01:58:45 pm


Even at 100MSa/s there will be 99 more samples between each dot in the image, sinc will be fine with that.

No (if we stay here in entry or near entry level scopes segment)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on September 12, 2018, 02:34:17 pm

Me? I'm not doing anything.


Me neither...almost  ;)

Quote
Edit: Maybe that's the true rise time of a pin on an Arduino Uno after all the capacitances, etc. have been taken into account. We need somebody with a better oscilloscope to measure one.

Things get even more complex and unclear when the rise times get faster, and since this thread turned into a completely academic discussion (with some not-so-academic reproaches once in a while...), let's put some more petrol on the fire  8)

First I tried to replicate Fungus's tests with the original Rigol probe, dot mode and infinite persitance. Since at the performance of the DS1000Z, Leo Bodnar's fast edge oscillator (<50ps) hasn't much advantage against the digital outputs of my rubidium source (<200ps), but the latter provides full 5V amplitude, I used that one as a source throughout these tests. I connected the Rigol probe (RP2200) set to 10:1 via a proper probe/BNC adapter to the 5V digital output of the Rb source. Screenshots "Quickprint 2~5" were taken this way. Rise times differ by about 1.5ns against Fungus's tests but the shape of the edge differs considerably. I'm very surprised by the sharp edges that my DS1000Z shows at 250Msps.

After that I went to cancel out the effect of the probe and connected the Rb source via a 40cm quality BNC cable and a 50Ohm feed-through terminator to the scope's input. Obviously, the amplitude is now reduced by half, hence the sensitivity was adjusted to 500mV/div (actually, it's 5 times as much signal at the scope's input since the probe in the first test had an attenuation of 10:1). Whatsoever, I ran the same tests again, but this time I also checked the results in vector mode. And now things really start to get interesting.

In dot mode, the individual samples more or less group on a line with only noise-related jitter/stray width, regardless if sin(x)/x interpolation is selected or not. But as soon as vector mode is enabled, at the low sampling rates there's now considerable modulation in the over/undershoot areas present that gets better only after channels are turned off to increase sampling rate. This means that Rigol has got to be using different interpolation algorithms in dot mode and vector mode. This also raises the question what signal they use in the second stage (screen adjustment) trigger in the two display modes.

Actually, I'm even more suspicious about the performance of the analog front end of the DS1000Z. It appears that the front end is slew rate limited at high(er) signal levels at the gate of the first JFET. And I assume that Rigol uses some kind of digital high-pass filter after the ADC (maybe even a non-linear one, depending on the actual signal level and the sensitivity setting) to compensate for this. If time permits, I may actaully do some measurements inside my DS1000Z.

But as mentioned before, all this is more or less nonsense, it doesn't improve the scope at all and to be honest, it's not really worth spending that amount of time and effort on an instrument of that low price. But anyway, it's fun trying to understand what's going on inside and how Rigol managed to turn an apparently (less than) mediocre harware into something useful (more or less so, some may argue...).

Finally I attached a screenshot of the aliasing frequency of the Rb source signal at low sample rate to get an idea of the accuracy of the internal reference -- I'ld say it's also mediocre at 11ppm (at least for my DS1000Z), YMMV  :)

And sorry for the long post...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 03:17:30 pm
Edit: Maybe that's the true rise time of a pin on an Arduino Uno after all the capacitances, etc. have been taken into account. We need somebody with a better oscilloscope to measure one.

Rise times differ by about 1.5ns against Fungus's tests but the shape of the edge differs considerably. I'm very surprised by the sharp edges that my DS1000Z shows at 250Msps.

This confirms what I was seeing (sort of). When I improved my probing, sin(x)/x started to win out over whatever it is that Rigol does when you turn it off.

With your much faster pulse and better probing you got this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521462;image)
(which is hard to explain, I need to think about that one)


This (and other images) seems to show that your analog bandwidth is near 200MHz. Maybe you got lucky in the front-end component lottery! (do you get the same rise time on other channels?):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521510;image)

Finally: Your images make me suspect that the Arduino pulse is indeed around 4.5ns.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 03:24:28 pm
Finally I attached a screenshot of the aliasing frequency of the Rb source signal at low sample rate to get an idea of the accuracy of the internal reference -- I'ld say it's also mediocre at 11ppm (at least for my DS1000Z), YMMV  :)

That's using the on-screen data to calculate it. What do you get if yo turn on the hardware frequency counter?

(Measure->Counter)

it's fun trying to understand what's going on inside and how Rigol managed to turn an apparently (less than) mediocre harware into something useful

There's definitely some 'impossible' performance numbers appearing in these tests.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on September 12, 2018, 03:49:55 pm
There's no noticable difference of the performance between the individual channels of my DS1000Z.

Oh yes, the hardware frequency counter more or less confirms the accuracy check of the aliasing interference frequency measurement, reading 10.0001MHz, that is if you want to believe in one least significant digit. Basically, the resolution of the hardware counter is just a little low to provide useful information. Two more digits (down to 1Hz resolution) would change this considerably... That makes the interference measurement so attractive (had been presented by @besauk here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/how-to-quickly-determine-your-dso-timebase-accuracy/msg1748363/#msg1748363 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/how-to-quickly-determine-your-dso-timebase-accuracy/msg1748363/#msg1748363) ).

Quote

Finally: Your images make me suspect that the Arduino pulse is indeed around 4.5ns.


I think the RP2200 probe may also make some difference as my tests with the BNC cable show, even though the settings of the 'scopes input had to be changed to do the measurements in the different configurations. But yes, the arduino I/O line is most likely also not as fast as the digital outputs of my Rb source (I purposely designed them for high speed so I could directly use them for reflection measurements and the like...).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: maukka on September 12, 2018, 04:35:25 pm
But this material where from images are is finnish language so you can not understand it due to fact that finnish language is like "enigma" for example google translator. And I have also explained previously why I pick up these images here. If you really do not understand then tell it directly that you did not understand instead if this indirect way tell same.

This (http://www.siglent.fi/oscilloscope-digital-aliasing-sampling.html) (one part) of "teaching" material for peoples who do not have so much knowledge about digital oscilloscopes. Some kind of common bottom entry level information. Examples are made using Siglent but all these can do using nearly what ever this era entry level digital oscilloscope.

To be fair, that site also looks like it was translated to Finnish by Google.  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 12, 2018, 04:45:02 pm
Pretty crazy results by TurboTom :-+

I would comment on 250MSa/s Sinc=ON|OFF performance on these 2 images:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521498;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521504;image)

Look crazy overshoot when Sinc=ON and clear signs of Sinc or similar interpolation when OFF! In OFF state it looks more-less like it should in ON state.

Now look what I get on my scope with 50ns pulser, 20GSa/s ETS (blue) vs 250MSa/s RTS (cyan) averaged & Sinc'd.
Overshoot is quite modest.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521672;image)

Now here are all basic modes with measurements averaged & Sinc'd:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521678;image)

Same modes averaged & linear interpolation:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521684;image)

It refuses to measure rise with linear interpolation and low sample count, and of course no overshoot at all.
With Sinc interpolation rise times scale logically and there is overshoot but it is rather tiny, worst case 5% from amplitude.

Now I ask - math is math. How on earth Rigol manages to overshoot like crazy at 250MSa/s: 14% with Sinc=ON, 6% Sinc=OFF (there shouldn't be even mathematical source here!). Also at 500MSa/s it manages 7%. As can see at 1GSa/s there is no physical cause in sight.





Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 04:52:50 pm
Now I ask - math is math. How on earth Rigol manages to overshoot like crazy at 250MSa/s: 14% at  Sinc=ON, 6% Sinc=OFF

The 14% is a sum of real electrical overshoot + Gibbs + aliasing.

Sinc = off? Electrical overshoot + only Rigol knows what.

at 500MSa/s it manages 7%

Gibbs/aliasing greatly reduced.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 12, 2018, 05:02:52 pm
The 14% is a sum of real electrical overshoot + Gibbs + aliasing.

Sinc = off? Electrical overshoot + only Rigol knows what.

Look image below. There is no electrical / physical overshoot:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521528;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 05:06:48 pm
The 14% is a sum of real electrical overshoot + Gibbs + aliasing.

Sinc = off? Electrical overshoot + only Rigol knows what.

Look image below. There is no electrical / physical overshoot:

So ... that parameter will be zero.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 12, 2018, 06:41:52 pm
The 14% is a sum of real electrical overshoot + Gibbs + aliasing.

Sinc = off? Electrical overshoot + only Rigol knows what.

Look image below. There is no electrical / physical overshoot:

So ... that parameter will be zero.  :popcorn:

Not much could be attributed to Sinc math either. Special content for mr Fungus produced by most academic scope I have. 50ns pulser hitting AD2. Cyan trace (R1) is 16x oversampling eg pretty much what frontend sees. Yellow tace (C1) is 100MSa/s RTS, Sinc'd, 1000x averaged. Effect on risetime is severe exactly like expected (8.9ns edge sampled at 100MSa/s turns to 17.3ns). Yet overshoot is 1% :D
So you cannot attribute math buzzwords to all the magic you see on the screen ;)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521747;image)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2018, 07:03:58 pm
...all the magic you see on the screen ;)

"Magic"? I think you're starting to like the DS1054Z.

Maybe your previous numbers didn't tell you everything.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 13, 2018, 04:18:13 am
Also can see that without Sinc there is not so much wobbling in corners and edges upside and downside from trig level. Also this is normal ok. This is one reason why it is good that oscilloscope can always turn to true sample dots without any interpolation (poormans partially emulated RIS mode what is good for some kind of waveforms where Sinc is not best  and vice versa.) (of course separate trigger engine interpolation is working if or when it exists independent of displayed wfm interpolation) endependent of what example Keysight say or advertise or produce.

The wobbling (1) is because even with an input signal completely within the Nyquist bandwidth, the non-linearity in the digitizer mixes the signal and sample frequencies producing mixing products above the Nyquist frequency and then sin(x)/x reconstruction fails because essentially there are multiple solutions.  Just the aliasing of the input signal by itself will not do that (2) although I think it would screw up digital triggering.  It can be thought of as looking as a lightly modulated AM signal.

This is why I much prefer ETS which raises the sampling rate so high that the mixing produces no aliasing and as a bonus, there is none of that pre-shoot and post-shoot nonsense.  Averaging helps if you have nothing better but not as much as ETS.

Your later example on the Siglent shows it better and it is exactly what I see on ancient DSOs with sin(x)/x interpolation and no ETS.  HP/Agilent/Keysight likes to make fun of Tektronix's interleaved digitizers which tend to suffer more from this due to poorer linearity.  Even Rigol seems pretty good in this respect except for that 100 to 200 MHz overload problem in the analog signal conditioning.

(1) I've been calling this wobulation.  If you see it, then your have exceeded the capabilities of your DSO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 13, 2018, 06:49:38 am
Also can see that without Sinc there is not so much wobbling in corners and edges upside and downside from trig level. Also this is normal ok. This is one reason why it is good that oscilloscope can always turn to true sample dots without any interpolation (poormans partially emulated RIS mode what is good for some kind of waveforms where Sinc is not best  and vice versa.) (of course separate trigger engine interpolation is working if or when it exists independent of displayed wfm interpolation) endependent of what example Keysight say or advertise or produce.

The wobbling (1) is because even with an input signal completely within the Nyquist bandwidth, the non-linearity in the digitizer mixes the signal and sample frequencies producing mixing products above the Nyquist frequency and then sin(x)/x reconstruction fails because essentially there are multiple solutions.  Just the aliasing of the input signal by itself will not do that (2) although I think it would screw up digital triggering.  It can be thought of as looking as a lightly modulated AM signal.

This is why I much prefer ETS which raises the sampling rate so high that the mixing produces no aliasing and as a bonus, there is none of that pre-shoot and post-shoot nonsense.  Averaging helps if you have nothing better but not as much as ETS.

Your later example on the Siglent shows it better and it is exactly what I see on ancient DSOs with sin(x)/x interpolation and no ETS.  HP/Agilent/Keysight likes to make fun of Tektronix's interleaved digitizers which tend to suffer more from this due to poorer linearity.  Even Rigol seems pretty good in this respect except for that 100 to 200 MHz overload problem in the analog signal conditioning.

(1) I've been calling this wobulation.  If you see it, then your have exceeded the capabilities of your DSO.

Yes but ETS is not real time scope at all. ETS can do even with 1Hz sampling speed for reconstruct 1GHz signal... if we look only alone fully repetitive signals... (who need scope only for these) ETS is ok.

When we need real time scope what can solve signals with full BW using one shot... we need also accept some interpolation methods produced not so nice things (exept if we use very high samplerate ADC vs BW what do not need interpolation at all or just tiny vectors but who want spend 10Gsa ADC and huge memory to 50M scope.. ). Btw, I have not seen so much corners wobbling if signal really meet Sinc rules. But then we need also rtemember that Sinc in usual scope can not go up to fNyquist. Not at all. Usually need stay under 0.8*fNyq for minimize sinewave amplitudce wobbling and other waveforms harmonics what ADC can see need also keep least under fNyq (of course amount they affect depends harmonics levels.) if not we see edges corners wobbling. It is one displayed form of aliasing.  As we know oscilloscopes Sinc can not be ideal... no one can wait until this calculus is ready. Because samples position related to signal is random then example with square wave etc sample position may be optimal or less optimal.  Averaging sequential acquisitions of course helps but.. anly for long time continuous repetitive waveforms what can solve using nearly what ever.  Sinc interpolation is filter and it is not perfect Sinc even when it draw via true sample points. If we separate one harmonic what is near fNyq this harmonic start show amplitude wobbling (bit like AM) and depending this Sinc reconstruction performance things (many compromises) also these are good to keep under around 0.8*fNyg. If we need very perfect result all what ADC can see need keep even more below fNyq exept if we start compute lot of sequantial samples ... up to fNyg we need infinite..
But then, some modern advanced scopes may have more inbulid DSP operations for reduce and "makeup" these problems, example Gibbs...  do that finally reconstruction is more perfect.

Then also there is other thing...  in digital trigger "engine".  Its own interpolation methods between true samples for fine adjust wfm trigger position between two samples. 

And then, if scope is using decimated samplerates when slow t/div and memory start reject "samplerate" what is pushed to acquisition memory  and from there collected (how ever it is done) to display memory. There, inside trigger sub system, it still can use example true ADC stream before decimation.
Example Siglent do it. So it is possible to run in SARI mode (Sequential Acquisitions Random Interleave). It can reconstruct signal far over fNyquist if run dots mode with decimated samplerates.

Perhaps even Siglent do not know there is this mode implemented. I have not seen any advertisement...

Here 3 images.



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=522146;image)
1. original signal with full samplerate and interpolations off.. just only true dots (if your browser/computer run these full speed also speed is around same what can see on scope screen irl.
Here sample dots are dense in every acq and also then lot of acqs overlaid and randomly interleaved so no need any interpolations.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=522152;image)
2. Samplerate dropped low. Decimated samplerate 50MSa/s  (fNyq 25MHz) what is far below signal first harmonic aka base frequency 45MHz. This signal of course have lot of harmonics...example 5. is 225MHz
Display total mess and can not trig of course. There can see running some alias freq products like example 5MHz



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=522158;image)
3. Same as 2 but now... dots mode.  And this is fun. Acq memory samplerate 50MSa/s (fNyq 25MHz)
It can reconstruct  and show 45MHz 4ns risetime square. 50MSa/s! And this oscilloscope do not have ETS mode at all!
Just not advertised SARI mode. (yes also some other scope may have this)
Of course if this can do other way and with full ADC speed then it can be like LeCroy RIS mode or emulate it.
With further develop and finishing this can be useful when scope is working in decimated samplerates.

Data points time interval in acquisition memory is 20ns (one point 2div)
What happen. Acquisition and trig position detected between memory data points and quite accurate. Moved to display memory.
As soon as possible next acquistion positioned (note that signal position to samples is time random) and moved to display memory together with previous... now dots are in random time position... then next and next and next until display moved to TFT and whole new turn...
In this case with current acquistion speed is quite low and it can do around 13 - 15 acquisitions for one image where now these Sequential Acquistions are Randomly Interleaved (due to fact that signal and ADC is not in time sync).
If like it can call SARI mode. How many sequential acquistions (note1) is interleaved (overlaid) depends current  wfm/s speed. This is strong evidence that Siglent full digital side trigger engine use ADC true samples for trigger and fine position when operate under true ADC speed (1GSa or 500MSa/s).

Note1. These all sequential acquisitions can also find in waveform history buffer  separately and time stamped (time is not true real time due to lack of RTC what can set and what keep time - what a shame they did not implement battery back up RTC)
Just with this setting every last 3912 acquistion with true raw ADC data is stored to history buffer fifo for analyze with scope and if want look with Sinc, Vector or dots mode because both interpolations are fully post processed.

This feature have many limits but it can use and is also useful in some special cases when user is bit experienced with it.
It may work also in some other same kind of oscilloscope where user can select true Dots mode without interpolation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 13, 2018, 01:52:12 pm
Yes but ETS is not real time scope at all. ETS can do even with 1Hz sampling speed for reconstruct 1GHz signal... if we look only alone fully repetitive signals... (who need scope only for these) ETS is ok.

Averaging is not real time either but it is recommended for correcting the errors produced by sin(x)/x interpolation.

My preference for dealing with decimation for whatever reason is to capture a real time histogram and display that like DPO style DSOs do.  Rohde & Schwarz implemented a lessor version of this in their RTO series of DSOs.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 13, 2018, 02:23:53 pm
Example Siglent do it. So it is possible to run in SARI mode (Sequential Acquisitions Random Interleave). It can reconstruct signal far over fNyquist if run dots mode with decimated samplerates.

So can Rigol. This image was produced at full sample rate earlier in the thread:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521462;image)

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 13, 2018, 02:31:42 pm
There's no noticable difference of the performance between the individual channels of my DS1000Z.

I've seen other people measuring close to 200Mhz measured bandwidth on their DS1054Z in the past but others have measured around 135MHz.

Maybe the higher numbers are more accurate and it all depends on the probing technique and signal generator used. I don't know.

I don't have to gear to test mine properly so I usually throw the number "130MHz" around just in case I get accused of being a crazy deluded Rigol fanboy (it happens!)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 13, 2018, 02:59:55 pm
So can Rigol. This image was produced at full sample rate earlier in the thread:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521462;image)

Yea but no. It look like dot mode allright... But it sort of isnt, otherwise same signal would look just like here:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521480;image)

ETS, oversampling, SARI etc are about giving true analog scope like representation of (semi-)static signal. Here we see signal completely different between 2 sampling rates. Also we see degradation of rise time at 250MSa/s like it should, yet corners are ~90 degree, yet smooth corner seen at 1GSa/s is lost :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 13, 2018, 03:15:09 pm
Example Siglent do it. So it is possible to run in SARI mode (Sequential Acquisitions Random Interleave). It can reconstruct signal far over fNyquist if run dots mode with decimated samplerates.

So can Rigol. This image was produced at full sample rate earlier in the thread:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521462;image)

Totally different thing.
You did not note that in my example whole 45MHz signal whole cycle is near sample interval (decimated samplerate as you can see was 50MSa/s and square wave is 45MHz. So whole cycle have only bit over one sample in one trigged acquisition.

Perhaps you forget thinking or reading what you comment.

It looks like I have not told and show this special case things so that also you can understand.
 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on September 13, 2018, 04:01:59 pm
Here we see signal completely different between 2 sampling rates. Also we see degradation of rise time at 250MSa/s like it should, yet corners are ~90 degree, yet smooth corner seen at 1GSa/s is lost :-//

It need understand how trigger engine works and how it fine adjust dots stream time position in every single trigged horizontal  acquisition (aka horizontal sweep if think analog scope)

facts and fiction:
This "triger engine" is perhaps partially guilty who produce fake signal shape. (250MSa/s there is 4ns sampling period! Remember it and then think what happen in trigger engine when it is waiting and then... next some sample cross over trig level.  First thing it do is trying find when signal goes over trig level then interpolate using other nearest sample(s). After then all samples need shift (or keep unshifted in rare cases) for adjust so that "interpolated part of wave" (between sample points) trigger position is in right place what is interpolated but not necessary true right. But of course also all samples are now shifted  they still keep this level what they have in these places where they are sampled...even when interpolated trigger position is not  but because do not know exactly details how Rigol trigger engine works can not know exactly what happen. Only can tell that this image where is   nearly sharp 90degree corners is false (it can know because these corners are totally impossible in practice and theory with its analog front end.  (and I suspect it is jut because nature of trigger engine what can not even in theory jump over this problem without very different design) But This is more or less close true. I do not have Rigol for do some special tests so that can find more truth or flush out wrong imaginations about how it works. 
(btw also there in Siglent can find this phenomena. Also @Performa01 have previoulsy little scratched the surface of this matter and wondered what it was all about long time ago with SDS2000X and later in SDS1000X-E review)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 13, 2018, 05:51:04 pm
I love how you assume RIGOL must be wrong.

Maybe this image is truly showing RAW samples, just like the Siglent (eg. the 'scope might know that it's on the extreme limit and switch off reconstruction in dots mode). It's the only explanation that makes sense. This image is impossible otherwise:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521462;image)

With 1GSa/s it might decide that there's enough samples for the analog bandwidth and turn that off. Sin(x)/x gives us this image:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521480;image)

It sucks that we don't have more options to play with to characterize the front end but Rigol doesn't design for the volt-heads. The way it works gives good results for everybody else.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 13, 2018, 06:23:31 pm
This "triger engine" is perhaps partially guilty who produce fake signal shape.

This is very useful lead. I tried to "attack" trigger on my AD2 and soon enough it was very "broken" and oversampling mode was rendered incapable:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=522623;image)

Now AD2 is honest academic scope and does not try to hide that it cannot accurately trigger. On persistence can see huge amount of jitter. Grey trace is averaged one and blue is oversampling (800MSa/s). Signal fed in is 30ns pulse with 8.4ns edges. Scope sampling rate 50MSa/s.

If some clever but little clumsy programmer would now try to hide this jitter it could end in some puzzling visual phenomenon :P

Edit: If trigger engine would run at full ADC speed (100MSa/s) it would be all much better. Now if you say Siglent trigger actually uses full ADC speed under similar condition then it kicks some serious ass :-+ They'd better get busy polishing that SARI thing ASAP...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 16, 2018, 02:47:14 am
I've seen other people measuring close to 200Mhz measured bandwidth on their DS1054Z in the past but others have measured around 135MHz.

Maybe the higher numbers are more accurate and it all depends on the probing technique and signal generator used. I don't know.

TurboTom's test results here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1804364/#msg1804364) show that bandwidth depends on vertical sensitivity which should not happen nearly to the extent shown.  (1) My own observations of tests done at high signal levels show slew rating limiting which would cause variation in full power bandwidth which is a different problem but it would also affect measured bandwidth under certain conditions.

Neither should happen in a properly designed oscilloscope.  Rigol screwed up.

(1) Some oscilloscopes have switched gain stages at their highest sensitivities and a few of these may drop in bandwidth significantly but it was well known limitation and the specifications included it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 16, 2018, 11:59:23 am
Neither should happen in a properly designed oscilloscope.  Rigol screwed up.

Rigol put a 4-channel, $399 oscilloscope with the performance shown on the market three years ago. That's hardly a screw-up.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on September 16, 2018, 12:33:42 pm
Neither should happen in a properly designed oscilloscope.  Rigol screwed up.

Rigol put a 4-channel, $399 oscilloscope with the performance shown on the market three years ago. That's hardly a screw-up.

Every time someone says things like that I say - What do you want for $399 $349?  :-//

They are $349 now!  :clap:
Title: *Very* weird DS1054z problem
Post by: realitycomputer on September 16, 2018, 11:53:53 pm
Hi all,

I have an extremely strange issue with my DS1054z, whereby it is not displaying any trace at all on any of the 4 channels.
I have started a thread here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-no-waveform-on-any-channel/msg1828157/#msg1828157 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-no-waveform-on-any-channel/msg1828157/#msg1828157)
But then I wondered if I ought to mention it in this 1054z "De Facto" thread!?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 17, 2018, 10:49:56 am
Neither should happen in a properly designed oscilloscope.  Rigol screwed up.

Rigol put a 4-channel, $399 oscilloscope with the performance shown on the market three years ago. That's hardly a screw-up.

Every time someone says things like that I say - What do you want for $399 $349?  :-//

I expect this sort of shortcoming to be documented as part of the specifications.  I expect the documentation not to deliberately mislead.  I expect their customer service not to lie when I ask questions.
Title: Re: *Very* weird DS1054z problem
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on September 17, 2018, 01:11:50 pm
Hi all,

I have an extremely strange issue with my DS1054z, whereby it is not displaying any trace at all on any of the 4 channels.
I have started a thread here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-no-waveform-on-any-channel/msg1828157/#msg1828157 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-no-waveform-on-any-channel/msg1828157/#msg1828157)
But then I wondered if I ought to mention it in this 1054z "De Facto" thread!?

I got in touch with rigol china if it is in warranty, I was delayed almost a month, but they advised me to correct the problem, that if I sent them as 10 mail, they asked for images and videos which I uploaded to youtube. Today more than 5 months of the problem (humidity) I am 100% satisfied with the oscilloscope, for $ s319. I have a very good product.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 17, 2018, 01:15:43 pm
I expect this sort of shortcoming to be documented as part of the specifications.

How would they word that, exactly?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 17, 2018, 01:39:12 pm
I expect this sort of shortcoming to be documented as part of the specifications.

How would they word that, exactly?

From random scope spec:
Quote
Bandwidth* (-3 dB): 250 MHz (200 MHz ±50 mV range)
*Quoted bandwidth is with supplied probes or at BNC when 50 Ω impedance selected.

BTW There is old but very interesting thread about DS1000E:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/)
Interestingly this one had both linear interpolation and Sinc. Sinc=ON had huge bw drop in relation to linear and did not cross actual data points. Somehow it reminds very much of Sinc=OFF on DS1000Z which still look like Sinc but much suppressed. Did they downgrade old Sinc=ON code to Sinc=OFF :-//

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 17, 2018, 02:15:22 pm
From random scope spec:
Quote
Bandwidth* (-3 dB): 250 MHz (200 MHz ±50 mV range)
*Quoted bandwidth is with supplied probes or at BNC when 50 Ω impedance selected.

I think D.Hess is referring to this image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1804028/#msg1804028):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=516155;image)

Something about the input amplifier overloading a tiny bit when the DS1054Z clicks down below 500Mv mode and you then fine tune the range up to to 400mV manually (ie. towards the limits of the low-range input amplifier).

And if that is what he's referring to, how would it be worded in a manual so that he wouldn't feel "deliberately mislead"?


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on September 18, 2018, 12:37:38 pm
I expect this sort of shortcoming to be documented as part of the specifications.

How would they word that, exactly?

Tektronix did decades ago when bandwidth commonly decreased at the highest sensitivities; they simply specified the bandwidth where it was different for each range.  Many oscilloscopes had a small drop in bandwidth at their highest vertical sensitivity for the reason I mentioned and it was sometimes considered a feature if there was not.  (1) One of the most extreme examples that I know of is the 11A52 which was unusual for a 600MHz vertical amplifier for having a sensitivity down to 1mV/V:

>=10mV/div   600MHz
5 to 9.95mV/div   400MHz
2 to 4.98mV/div   250MHz
1 to 1.99mV/div   200MHz

I think D.Hess is referring to this image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1804028/#msg1804028):

Something about the input amplifier overloading a tiny bit when the DS1054Z clicks down below 500Mv mode and you then fine tune the range up to to 400mV manually (ie. towards the limits of the low-range input amplifier).

And if that is what he's referring to, how would it be worded in a manual so that he wouldn't feel "deliberately mislead"?

Some instruments might specify full power bandwidth but I have never seen it applied to an oscilloscope.  (2) Such a limitation is just broken.  If they had specified full power bandwidth, then people would have asked embarrassing questions.  I would not want to advertise such a limitation but I sure would not want to mislead people either.

Note that there are actually two separate problems here.  TurboTom's test results here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1804364/#msg1804364) show a significant change in small signal bandwidth with different vertical sensitivities like some oscilloscopes which I mentioned.  The overload leading to non-linearity I spotted (3) produces a change in full power bandwidth which depends on both frequency and amplitude.  Measuring just bandwidth at high signal levels (5 vertical divisions or greater ) will show contributions from both.

(1) The 7A13 listed constant bandwidth as a feature but it was unusual for having 1mV/div sensitivity at 100MHz at a time when most vertical inputs were limited to 5mV/div or 10mV/div where they often had a slightly lower bandwidth.  My guess is that someone had a similar 1mV/div "100MHz" amplifier which was actually significantly slower; Tektronix might even have been comparing it to one of their earlier vertical amplifiers.

(2) Many analog CRT oscilloscopes actually do specify bandwidth under specific large signal conditions but this is due to non-linearity of the CRT itself.  This is typically about 5 divisions (the same amplitude used for rise and fall time measurement) except for some very old oscilloscopes which did not even have 5 vertical divisions.  This shows up in the low frequency trace compression test used verify proper vertical amplifier operation and CRT geometry.

(3) This is not a transient response problem because it disappears at lower signal levels.
Title: Re: *Very* weird DS1054z problem
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 18, 2018, 03:26:24 pm
Hi all,

I have an extremely strange issue with my DS1054z, whereby it is not displaying any trace at all on any of the 4 channels.
I have started a thread here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-no-waveform-on-any-channel/msg1828157/#msg1828157 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-no-waveform-on-any-channel/msg1828157/#msg1828157)
But then I wondered if I ought to mention it in this 1054z "De Facto" thread!?

I got in touch with rigol china if it is in warranty, I was delayed almost a month, but they advised me to correct the problem, that if I sent them as 10 mail, they asked for images and videos which I uploaded to youtube. Today more than 5 months of the problem (humidity) I am 100% satisfied with the oscilloscope, for $ s319. I have a very good product.

I'm having trouble understanding this post.

Does it mean that Adrian_Arg had the same problem with no traces, but everything else working on his DS1054z? Did the problem turn out to be high humidity? Did the cure simply involve opening it up and gently drying with warm air?

Title: Re: *Very* weird DS1054z problem
Post by: iainwhite on September 18, 2018, 03:40:29 pm
I'm having trouble understanding this post.

Does it mean that Adrian_Arg had the same problem with no traces, but everything else working on his DS1054z? Did the problem turn out to be high humidity? Did the cure simply involve opening it up and gently drying with warm air?

I think you are correct!  At least that is how I read it    ...and the scope has worked fine for the last 5 months.
 
The reference to 10 mail is a temporary email service called '10 Minute Mail'
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 23, 2018, 12:11:23 am
I can't seem to find the bug thread at the moment.

Here's a pretty severe bug I just noticed. The "Period Area" measurement is supposed to ... duh... give the area under the waveform. If positive, more area above baseline, if negative, more area below baseline. Very useful, right?

But if I turn on another channel, the "measurement" varies wildly, even changing sign.

 |O    :palm:     :--


ETA: I didn't change anything except to push the CH4 button to turn it on. But it does look like the whole CH1 trace is very slightly moved down in the second shot.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2018, 12:33:57 am
If I turn on another channel, the "measurement" varies wildly, even changing sign.

I notice the frequency has changed a lot as well (looks to me like the "30kHz" was correct, "25kHz" isn't".

I wonder if it's related to the fact the CH4 is "FGin". Does it happen with other channels or if you change that?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ttelectronic on September 23, 2018, 01:40:45 am
How come probe is set to 10 x in the first 1x in the second?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 23, 2018, 01:57:31 am
If I turn on another channel, the "measurement" varies wildly, even changing sign.

I notice the frequency has changed a lot as well (looks to me like the "30kHz" was correct, "25kHz" isn't".

I wonder if it's related to the fact the CH4 is "FGin". Does it happen with other channels or if you change that?

Uh... it's just a label, there is nothing even plugged into CH4 at all. Yes, it happens with other channels too.

How come probe is set to 10 x in the first 1x in the second?

CH4 was set to 1x. The 10x setting of CH1 has not changed. On the Rigol, the channel probe attenuation setting does nothing more than scale the vertical, anyway.

As I said, the only difference between the two scopeshots above is that I pressed the CH4 button to turn CH4 on. No other settings were changed at all between the two scopeshots and there is only about 30 seconds difference in real time between the two.

And I warmed the scope up for about 4 hours, then ran a self-calibration before making the test.

And I'm running the very latest firmware that I know about.     00.04.04.03.05
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 23, 2018, 02:02:17 am
Do you think I can trust this integral, that doesn't quite return to zero over the full waveform? It doesn't change when I turn on other channels.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2018, 09:21:16 am
I wonder if it's related to the fact the CH4 is "FGin". Does it happen with other channels or if you change that?

Uh... it's just a label, there is nothing even plugged into CH4 at all. Yes, it happens with other channels too.

OK, I didn't know if you had the signal generator option or not.

And I warmed the scope up for about 4 hours, then ran a self-calibration before making the test.

That shouldn't matter.

Do you think I can trust this integral, that doesn't quite return to zero over the full waveform? It doesn't change when I turn on other channels.

You're working with 8-bit resolution, etc. I wouldn't expect it to return to exactly zero over s wafeform.

I think "integral" is more for measuring the area under a single pulse (eg. calculate its energy).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 23, 2018, 09:28:23 am
I'd suggest to run functional test of equipment on simple signal (square, sine) you can verify by hand, WolframAlpha etc. Also pay attention to units. Due to noise etc there will be always some small deviation from zero for single integrated wfm. If you could analyze large amount of wfms, DC average etc trend would show if it actually zeroes out or not. In Rigol case you could do it only in external software. Maybe could try averaging instead.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2018, 09:31:16 am
I'm more worried that the frequency changes by 17%. That needs investigation.

You'd think somebody would have noticed by now if the frequency changed when you turned channels on.

Does the area function still change if you zoom in so that a single pulse fills the whole screen width?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 23, 2018, 09:52:29 am
You'd think somebody would have noticed by now if the frequency changed when you turned channels on.

Of course it changes because counter sensitivity varies with sampling rate. Lines represent reliable reading threshold (sine input).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=529178;image)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2018, 10:05:13 am
You'd think somebody would have noticed by now if the frequency changed when you turned channels on.
Of course it changes because counter sensitivity varies with sampling rate.

At 30kHz?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 23, 2018, 10:22:50 am
At 30kHz?

I just did not test low freq, who knows. You might notice that anomaly does not scale with frequency linearly. Also this is complex wfm maybe something else also at play. In any case counter clearly starts counting properly later than seemingly proper signal is visible and there is variation with sampling rate and it has been noticed before :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on September 23, 2018, 10:44:39 am
A quick trial using a 30Khz triangle waveform on my scope duplicated the extra CH/CH4 effect on Per Area.   The Area statistic remains relatively stable.  The enabling of an extra Channel does have a small impact on the trigger level but this is quite marginal.   However in my case enabling a third channel, no signal on it, changes the Per Area statistic back to the the original reading for the CH1 alone.  Adding the fourth channel has no effect so it seems enabling any single channel to the displaying channel changes the value of Per Area displayed but adding any third or more channels returns the reading to the single channel value.  Please note this is not a thorough check as my PerArea readings do float around a bit, like by 10%, the enabling of the second channel however changes the reading by approx X5.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: StillTrying on September 23, 2018, 11:05:45 am
But it does look like the whole CH1 trace is very slightly moved down in the second shot.

With the trigger level near the top edge of the trace, that's probably why the trigger counter is dropping from 30kHz to 25kHz, one of the edge trigger's hysteresis levels slipping off the top of the waveform.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 23, 2018, 11:42:36 am
A quick trial using a 30Khz triangle waveform on my scope duplicated the extra CH/CH4 effect on Per Area.   The Area statistic remains relatively stable.  The enabling of an extra Channel does have a small impact on the trigger level but this is quite marginal.   However in my case enabling a third channel, no signal on it, changes the Per Area statistic back to the the original reading for the CH1 alone.  Adding the fourth channel has no effect so it seems enabling any single channel to the displaying channel changes the value of Per Area displayed but adding any third or more channels returns the reading to the single channel value.  Please note this is not a thorough check as my PerArea readings do float around a bit, like by 10%, the enabling of the second channel however changes the reading by approx X5.

Hmm, that's interesting, and for some reason I didn't turn on more than one extra channel when I was doing it. I'm shut down for the day but I'll have to play around later to see if I can get a stable and reliable reading by turning on more channels.    :-//


But it does look like the whole CH1 trace is very slightly moved down in the second shot.

With the trigger level near the top edge of the trace, that's probably why the trigger counter is dropping from 30kHz to 25kHz, one of the edge trigger's hysteresis levels slipping off the top of the waveform.

Yep, this doesn't normally worry me as I usually know the frequency I'm working with, so in practice I wind up tweaking the trigger level so that the hw counter reads correctly. In this case the FG driving the DUT was set to 30.303 kHz. If I actually need to measure a frequency precisely I don't rely on the Rigol, I fire up the Philips 6676 w/ocxo. 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2018, 11:50:37 am
With the trigger level near the top edge of the trace, that's probably why the trigger counter is dropping from 30kHz to 25kHz, one of the edge trigger's hysteresis levels slipping off the top of the waveform.

Maybe, but at 30kHz with 500MSa/s what you see on screen should be what the trigger sees. It should be enough.

It would be good to eliminate that. Turn trigger level down a bit.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2018, 12:06:19 pm
Just looking at the image and doing a finger-in-the-air calculation, it looks as if the area under that wave is very close to zero.

(ie. roughly summing the rectangles shown here)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=529358;image)

The number shown on screen is in nanovolts/s, ie. very close to zero. That matches the observation.

It's perfectly possible that halving the sample rate gives a slightly less stable number, and, when it's that close to zero it looks like a bigger error than it really is.

(ie. jumping from +250 to -140 looks like a big error but it really isn't when you realize it's nanovolts on a 1V signal)

Conclusion: Not a bug, not an error, just noise.


The Area statistic remains relatively stable.

Makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on September 23, 2018, 07:35:41 pm
Noise, enough to affect even the sign of the reading, caused simply by turning on one other channel? And removed by turning on another channel? That's a bug.

I do realize I'm dealing with tiny differences between small values and I'm using an inadequate instrument for the purpose, but I'm trying to get the best most reliable result possible under the circumstances. If this waveform or similar ones from this project can be shown consistently to be "negative" in area, even by a tiny bit, that would justify deploying the "big guns" for a further examination at greater and more reliable precision.

I do know what you mean about noise though. When doing the integration using the Math trace, even on a channel with no input the result will climb or sink randomly when it should be flatlined horizontally.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2018, 07:48:44 pm
Noise, enough to affect even the sign of the reading, caused simply by turning on one other channel? And removed by turning on another channel?

Let me reword that:

It's not "noise caused by turning one another channel", it's "a slightly different numerical result caused by lowering the sample rate on a channel"..

How big an error? It's down in the background noise level.

That's a bug.

Nope, sorry.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on September 23, 2018, 08:16:59 pm
I'm dealing with tiny differences between small values and I'm using an inadequate instrument for the purpose, but I'm trying to get the best most reliable result possible under the circumstances. If this waveform or similar ones from this project can be shown consistently to be "negative" in area, even by a tiny bit, that would justify deploying the "big guns" for a further examination at greater and more reliable precision.

Instead of big guns get a small complementary gun of your own. You need something 8bit that has good floating point math (averaging!) or something with high bit count. Since frequencies are very low id say AD2 or PS 2204A which costs about as much as single good probe. They have nothing on Z for high freq work and Z has nothing on them where your interests lie.

Edit: I did look briefly what AD2 and my old PS 2205 offer here. PS does not have built in "area" functions, but does integrals and derivatives. AD2 has nothing like that built in, or I did not find it, but it is not a fundamental problem because you can create needed graph function with script straight in the GUI. 2205 has 16k memory while AD2 2x16k. Seems nothing, yet it is all used for calculus which results in somewhat different approach: Find balance between sampling rate and timebase that would fit max amount of wfms. Look for trends.

Example: 1.8Vpp triangle in from signal gen, slight DC offset set. Already simple DC Average measurement shows that there is more stuff above the zero, so does the trend of integral. Peak values taken from first cycle. With more powerful scope you would zoom out even further. Measurement values are much more accurate than 8bit or N pixels because untied from screen resolution and true floating point.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=530261;image)

Of course to really get to bottom of stuff like this you would need to measure both voltage and current to account for reactive component.

You could try to zoom further out on Z also to see if there is any trend with integral but resolution would be quite low. Actually your 3 cycles already show a trend, but area measurement on the other hand do not so results are questionable, this is direct result of limited resolution.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2018, 01:28:55 am
I'm trying to get the best most reliable result possible under the circumstances.

Turn on statistics and look at the average value.

(nb. works for most things where "noise" is a factor)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fleetz on October 22, 2018, 09:14:39 pm
Could anyone confirm what is the latest firmware version for the DS1000Z series.

It appears BeyondRigol may have pulled the  00.04.04.03.05 version?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on October 22, 2018, 09:38:03 pm
Why, still there??: http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Even if it's not readable (for many...), the most current firmware versions can be found on the chinese site.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fleetz on October 22, 2018, 09:47:16 pm
Why, still there??: http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Even if it's not readable (for many...), the most current firmware versions can be found on the chinese site.

Cheers Tom...I was lead to believe the latest was available from http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)

However the release notes latest refers to 00.04.03.02.03 hence the confusion.

Wasn’t aware the latest firmware was available from the Chinese site, thanks for pointing that out.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on October 22, 2018, 11:01:45 pm
True, Rigol's firmware distribution policy is really weird. For most devices, Rigol's China / Chinese page is the best resource for the latest firmware versions. Yet, even the China / English language page is not as well maintained. An then - and that's what i really don't understand at all - for some of their instruments there isn't any update/file available on the mentioned server but you can find firmware versions on Rigol's north American site: https://www.rigolna.com/ (https://www.rigolna.com/). For example, the DM30xx and the M300 are such cases. It may indicate that Rigol has terminated support for these instruments, and thus taken the files off their own servers.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on October 27, 2018, 08:52:28 pm
I have updated the information section of the first post in this thread to reflect the current firmware version and its location on the rigolna website.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on October 28, 2018, 12:08:28 am
Thanks for maintaining the front page of this thread. I did not check the original posting in a while, but now made changes for the link coming from the firmware thread. It has been pointing towards the part of this thread regarding SW 00.04.04.03.02 onward (p157), but it is now linking to the opening post.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: danadak on November 10, 2018, 11:37:00 pm
This is a jitter measurement using cursors and statistics, width statistic being examined.


Problem 1) Cursors measure 6.5 uS of jitter, statistics only 3 uS. Eyeball display examination clearly shows it as > 6 uS.


Problem 2) Attempting to print this scope fails, "Disabled Some Operations!" error, after timeout of command "Can operate now".
no picture file created.


Several measurements were made, some produced 6+uS of measurement error between cursor results and width statistic results.


Each measurement stats were cleared, then scope allowed minutes of measurement time.


Here is scope shot - https://www.dropbox.com/s/jzfwh67ivyejl6t/DSC_0050.JPG?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jzfwh67ivyejl6t/DSC_0050.JPG?dl=0)



Regards, Dana.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 11, 2018, 12:53:57 am
Dana, check the measurement history to confirm that the statistics are being calculated over all the samples that the display persistence is showing for the cursor measurement. In the screenshot, it doesn't look like the stats included the same set of data.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 11, 2018, 12:59:35 am
Dana, check the measurement history to confirm that the statistics are being calculated over all the samples that the display persistence is showing for the cursor measurement. In the screenshot, it doesn't look like the stats included the same set of data.
Those aren't Stats, they're Cursor measurements.

Something's up with the triggering too, probably too much holdoff.
Trigger point hidden behind Cursor readout.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 11, 2018, 01:37:45 am
He's comparing the cursor measurements with the scope-collected statistics.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2018, 10:32:37 am
Dana, check the measurement history to confirm that the statistics are being calculated over all the samples that the display persistence is showing for the cursor measurement. In the screenshot, it doesn't look like the stats included the same set of data.

I'm going with this. The 'scope isn't measuring what you imagine it's measuring.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: danadak on November 11, 2018, 11:55:44 am
bitseeker -

I do not see any setting, other than choice to apply measurement to "screen"
or "cursors", to control sample set. I have it set to screen, and cursor measurement
looks correct. Stats does not.

If the statistics were not examining all sweeps, even if this were true, over time it would,
all things being equal, get a sample for all possible values. Eg. the jitter would produce
multiple samples for same point in time, over long acquisition periods. I have done hours
to see see if the measurement would converge, does not.

Regards, Dana.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on November 11, 2018, 12:47:20 pm
Each measurement stats were cleared, then scope allowed minutes of measurement time.

The width measurement is made on the pixels drawn on the screen.  If, for whatever reason, the oscilloscope couldn't identify the "Width" value, the statistics are reset.

Most probably, somewhere during the measurement minutes, the oscilloscope displayed a waveform where it couldn't find any "Width".  A reason could be, for example, no input signal for a period long enough that the scope made an auto-triggering, thus resetting the stats (if the scope was in trigger mode "Auto").  Or, the generator stopped oscillating for a while, or there were some very short spikes in the signal, short enough to trigger the scope in an unwanted place.  For such a long measurement (minutes) a lot of things could go wrong, not necessarily with the scope.

Please redo the test with the trigger on mode "Normal".
Are the statistics correct when the trigger mode is set to "Normal"?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: danadak on November 11, 2018, 12:49:51 pm
The measurement has always been done in "Normal" trigger.

I also thought my Hi Res setting for acquire might be doing it, so set that
to "Normal" as well.

Signal source is HW PWM, so it should be "reliable". Reliable in the sense continuous
running, the jitter from it not so much. But to your point I will see if I can get a trigger
on a missing pulse scenario. As well on an excessively wide pulse. Also if I have time do
further testing on my Tek 754A.

Regards, Dana.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on November 11, 2018, 01:03:09 pm
I couldn't reproduce the error.  My min/max measurement stats never reset by themselves.

What is the "Persis. Time" in the "Display" settings?
I can let mine run for a while, but I don't know for how long. For how many minutes did you ran your test?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: danadak on November 11, 2018, 01:06:05 pm
Infinite for persistence.

I ran tests for several hours, but problem shows up in fractions of a minute.


Regards, Dana.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 11, 2018, 01:23:03 pm
The measurement has always been done in "Normal" trigger.

I also thought my Hi Res setting for acquire might be doing it, so set that
to "Normal" as well.

Signal source is HW PWM, so it should be "reliable". Reliable in the sense continuous
running, the jitter from it not so much. But to your point I will see if I can get a trigger
on a missing pulse scenario. As well on an excessively wide pulse. Also if I have time do
further testing on my Tek 754A.

Regards, Dana.

Dana,
I tried in Auto and Normal trig. mode.

With shorter acq. memory depths it converges faster (more wfms/sec) but got reasonable results.
Hameg HM8030-6, PW modulation from 25 uS to 30uS, modulation freq 8 - 50 Hz.. via T to both scopes.
What is your modulation freq?

@RoGeorge : You have to reset stats manually.

Regards,
Sinisa.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: danadak on November 11, 2018, 01:47:04 pm
The modulation is actual jitter in a clock, ESP8266 module.

I just looked at scope, its mem depth was set to "Auto", so I forced it
to 24M. The results narrowed the error, still running. But error still
significant.

When I start a run I do reset stats.


Regards, Dana.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on November 11, 2018, 01:51:16 pm
Still can not reproduce.  :-//

I put a generator with a square wave modulated FM with noise (in order to simulate your signal), then let it run for about 15 minutes, and it still keep the min and max updated.  My "+Width" measurements don't reset.

The only moment when the stats reset on my DS1054Z was when I lower the generator frequency in such a way that only one rising edge was displayed on the screen (a step instead of a pulse).  In this case (a raising step with no falling edge on the screen - so no valid "Width" value) I can clearly see all 4 stats displaying "*****".  The moment I have at least a full pulse in view on the display, the "+Width" measurement start displaying numbers again, with the max/min values reset.  After "*****" is displayed at least once, the stats in that particular measurement are reset.  If I press the "Clear" button, all stats are reset.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 11, 2018, 02:16:01 pm
This is the moment where it would be useful to have jitter histogram. It is possible that jitter you're measuring spends very little time at the extremum so it gets into blind time for a Pulse width+ measurement routine.
It is obvious that measurement are not done at same dataset that is used to establish persistence on the screen...

I cannot reproduce it here with siggen. I don't have the module, sorry.

Regards,
Sinisa
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on November 11, 2018, 02:28:39 pm
The modulation is actual jitter in a clock, ESP8266 module.

There is something very fishy there.  That is a huge jitter for a clock driving a radio at 2.4GHz.

What pin did you probe in the initial picture? (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jzfwh67ivyejl6t/DSC_0050.JPG (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jzfwh67ivyejl6t/DSC_0050.JPG))
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: danadak on November 11, 2018, 02:36:23 pm
RoGerorge, having both edges always present might be a  clue. I will
start looking for bloated pulse using trigger system to see if that may
be cause.

Thanks, Dana.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 12, 2018, 02:30:48 am
bitseeker -

I do not see any setting, other than choice to apply measurement to "screen"
or "cursors", to control sample set. I have it set to screen, and cursor measurement
looks correct. Stats does not.

Go to Measure -> Statistic -> Stat.Sel. -> Difference to display Cnt (instead of Min/Max), which is the number of samples collected for the currently displayed statistics. Then, you'll be able to confirm that it's sampling during the entire display persistence period and that it hasn't reset for some reason.

Quote
If the statistics were not examining all sweeps, even if this were true, over time it would,
all things being equal, get a sample for all possible values. Eg. the jitter would produce
multiple samples for same point in time, over long acquisition periods. I have done hours
to see see if the measurement would converge, does not.

Agreed. With a sufficient number of samples, the stats should be closer to the cursor measurements. Turning on the sample counts display will help confirm that you're getting lots of samples.

Also, you can go to Measure -> History -> DispHistory to turn on the measurement history followed by Measure -> History -> Disp Type -> Table to see the values that have been collected. That will enable you to confirm, for example, that the scope got at least one of the Min and Max values that you measure with cursors.

These are not a solution, but they may be helpful in determining if the data is being captured as expected.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JHuston on February 01, 2019, 12:13:09 am
ANYONE GETTING AN ERROR ABOUT PRIVATE KEY:

YOU ARE ENTERING YOUR SERIAL NUMBER WITH A 8 INSTEAD OF AN 'S' AND THE SCRIPT IS NOT RECOGNIZING IT.  SERIAL NUMBERS ARE DS NOT D8
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on February 01, 2019, 04:41:59 am
ANYONE GETTING AN ERROR ABOUT PRIVATE KEY:

YOU ARE ENTERING YOUR SERIAL NUMBER WITH A 8 INSTEAD OF AN 'S' AND THE SCRIPT IS NOT RECOGNIZING IT.  SERIAL NUMBERS ARE DS NOT D8

And there are other ways to potentially mis-read the serial number, due to the small font on the screen. The serial number is also printed on a sticker on the scope's back -- easier to read than the small on-screen letters.
Title: pass/fail
Post by: magicsmokelost on April 01, 2019, 10:27:45 pm
I was able to get pass/fail working to stop when a trace falls outside the mask, but can anyone tell me if it is possible to record only failed traces with DS1054Z?

It seems that if I have pass/fail active, then the record menu is dimmed out, and vice versa.  |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 02, 2019, 12:00:07 am
I was able to get pass/fail working to stop when a trace falls outside the mask, but can anyone tell me if it is possible to record only failed traces with DS1054Z?

It seems that if I have pass/fail active, then the record menu is dimmed out, and vice versa.  |O

I don't think it's possible.

You can enable infinite persistence so all the failed waves will show overlaid on the screen.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: magicsmokelost on April 02, 2019, 12:42:43 am
 :wtf:

Wow, that's a really, really stupid limitation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 02, 2019, 01:56:16 am
:wtf:

Wow, that's a really, really stupid limitation.

Not at all. It needs the sample memory to continuously acquire signal and look for the next bad pulse.

It's not the same as filling the memory with pulses, stopping the data acquisition, figuring out the start point of each one for playback.

It's a hardware limitation, sure, but I wouldn't call it "stupid".

With a bit of scripting you could put it in single shot mode, wait for it to find a bad pulse, grab the wave, screenshot it, start it running again, repeat.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: magicsmokelost on April 02, 2019, 05:42:22 am
But the memory's fast enough to take the stats on failed sweeps in realtime - I would have thought that would mean it could just continuously write over the same sweep until there's a fail, then move to the next segment of memory - thus only storing failed sweeps.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 02, 2019, 07:09:58 am
...then move to the next segment of memory.

The logic is obvious, yes, but things that seem simple/obvious aren't always easy/possible to implement when you get into the details.

eg. It still has to trigger on every waveform (it doesn't know if it's going to be bad or not until it has time to run the test it), maybe it has no ability to "rewind" when a wave passes. Maybe it doesn't know if a wave has passed/failed until several more waves have arrived and are in memory so a "rewind" would overwrite those newer waves and there might be bad ones in there.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on April 02, 2019, 09:47:12 am
I know R&S rtb2000 /rtm3000 can save failed captures to segements.
Very expensive Keysight dsox3000T can't, it will only save screenshot to USb disc, as will Rigol MSO5000 /ds7000,
So not very common thing to do although does seem logical..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: magicsmokelost on April 03, 2019, 02:27:05 am
...then move to the next segment of memory.

The logic is obvious, yes, but things that seem simple/obvious aren't always easy/possible to implement when you get into the details.

Agreed.

Quote
maybe it has no ability to "rewind" when a wave passes.


I don't see why RAM wouldn't be random access.

Quote
Maybe it doesn't know if a wave has passed/failed until several more waves have arrived and are in memory so a "rewind" would overwrite those newer waves and there might be bad ones in there.

I get it, there can definitely be complications, but it's still very surprising to me that it can't do it at all. Even if it could only do a limited number of traces, or only sample every now and then because of the extra processing time, it would still IMO be a very useful thing.

Failed traces are the meat and potatoes when you're trying to troubleshoot why you're getting failed traces!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on April 03, 2019, 02:35:35 am
So a waveform Search feature that you can change the settings for and also transfer to the trigger might suit your needs better ?
Have a squiz at this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: magicsmokelost on April 03, 2019, 04:03:04 am
So a waveform Search feature that you can change the settings for and also transfer to the trigger might suit your needs better ?
Have a squiz at this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717)

I suppose it would, but it would better if the mask thingy worked in record mode.

I think I could have captured the problem I was looking for yesterday with creative trigger settings, but once again the fail mask working with record mode would be better.

Oh well, can't have everything I suppose.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 03, 2019, 06:06:46 am
Quote
maybe it has no ability to "rewind" when a wave passes.


I don't see why RAM wouldn't be random access.

It's not a PC. The sample memory in a DSO is just a big circular buffer being fed by the ADC. The main CPU has very limited access, most access is done through an FPGA whose main job is downsampling the data into a format suitable for display on screen.

What you're proposing would mean that pieces of sample memory need to copied around (you have to save only the interesting stuff, accumulating it in the memory). It might be impossible to do that in a DS1054Z (at least; impossible without stopping the ADC, in which case you'd be moaning that it misses waves when they all come along at once).

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: magicsmokelost on April 03, 2019, 08:17:28 am
It's not a PC. The sample memory in a DSO is just a big circular buffer being fed by the ADC. The main CPU has very limited access, most access is done through an FPGA whose main job is downsampling the data into a format suitable for display on screen.

What you're proposing would mean that pieces of sample memory need to copied around (you have to save only the interesting stuff, accumulating it in the memory). It might be impossible to do that in a DS1054Z (at least; impossible without stopping the ADC, in which case you'd be moaning that it misses waves when they all come along at once).

 :popcorn:

It must be able to have some level of "stopping" the recording to be able to do segmented memory, which only records when a trigger occurs.

I agree it would be one extra layer of processing to then have to do the masking, but clearly it can already manage to do that in realtime in order to keep the stats on failures.

Surely it isn't that hard to move the pointer in a circular buffer back to the start of the last sweep, even for an FPGA. There's no copying around, just moving the pointer back if it's a "pass" sweep that you don't want to keep. The sweeps will all be the same size too which makes things even simpler.

It's all moot points because it's one of the few features that this oscilloscope is missing. I'm still very happy with it overall, but I did get a big surprise that this one wasn't there.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 03, 2019, 08:39:34 am
I'm still very happy with it overall, but I did get a big surprise that this one wasn't there.

If they disabled the "record" menu then they're aware there's a conflict between the two things. I'm guessing there was no solution.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 03, 2019, 08:40:06 am
Maybe the classification of "good" vs. "bad" traces lags behind the recording? That would make it somewhat messy to go back and remove the good traces from the buffer, to retain the outliers only, since recording has already moved on and stored the next few sweeps.

Obviously feasible "in principle" -- you essentially want two memory buffers: a short-term one for interim storage until a trace has been classified, and a long-term memory to retain outlier traces. But that may not be supported by the Rigol hardware.

Anyway, this is just speculation. I'm afraid we simply have to live with the fact that the DS1000Z series does not offer this feature; and I wouldn't expect it in an upcoming firmware update (if we get another one...)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 03, 2019, 08:53:19 am
Obviously feasible "in principle" -- you essentially want two memory buffers: a short-term one for interim storage until a trace has been classified, and a long-term memory to retain outlier traces. But that may not be supported by the Rigol hardware.

There might be no way to copy sample data around in the sample memory, eg. Only the ADC has write access.

We know the sample data has to be downsampled to "screen" resolution before it can be compared with the pass/fail mask. This introduces a time delay between sampling/classification.

If there's a time delay between sampling/classification and no way to move sample data around then you can't do it. Period.

Anyway, this is just speculation.

Yep.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: magicsmokelost on April 04, 2019, 10:47:11 pm
There might be no way to copy sample data around in the sample memory, eg. Only the ADC has write access.

We know the sample data has to be downsampled to "screen" resolution before it can be compared with the pass/fail mask. This introduces a time delay between sampling/classification.

If there's a time delay between sampling/classification and no way to move sample data around then you can't do it. Period.

Valid point, but you could eliminate the need for moving sampling data around by just jumping back to right after the failed sample you just found. You'd lose the interim sweeps but at least you'd get the first fail and be able to continue sampling.

This would mean we could just leave the thing going and come back later and see all (most of?) the failed sweeps that were recorded. That would be much better than the current solution which is to disable the recording feature entirely.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on April 04, 2019, 11:35:06 pm
I am adding it to my want list. Yes I do.

Is this an application for a SCPI automated test solution?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 05, 2019, 07:31:55 am
Is this an application for a SCPI automated test solution?

I reckon so.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on April 05, 2019, 09:26:15 am
Mask testing in ds100'Z is done in software.What you want cannot be done. Period.
If 15000USD Keasight 3000T doesn't have that option why you would think it was trivial or necessary on cheapest one.
 Only R&S new 2000/3000&4000 series have it.
It could be added to new Siglents and new 5000&7000 series Rigols because they have architecture that is powerful enough  but it would need a change in a way acquisition engine works. Nothing trivial or easy about that

On 1000Z  it would be more useful to make decode to work from recorded data (and possible too). On 1000Z, they could add option to save a screen capture on fail, like Keysight and MSO5000/7000 do.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 05, 2019, 11:05:09 am
On 1000Z, they could add option to save a screen capture on fail, like Keysight and MSO5000/7000 do.

You could do this with SCPI commands from a PC connected to the DS1054Z.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on April 05, 2019, 11:47:42 am
Of course you can save screen shot from PC.  I was talking about that when you are in mask testing, when mask test fails, scope automatically saves screenshot of failed capture to USAD disk and than proceeds with testing.
Keysight 3000 (and 4000) has that, and MSO5000/7000 have it too..

R&S 2000/3000/4000 have an option to save mask failed acquisitions into segmented memory, like OP asked.
Later you can process it, search measure it..Very nice.
They are the only ones that do it that way ATM AFAIK.
Title: Re: telnet on Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ruggb on April 07, 2019, 01:09:09 pm
I am trying to telnet to my 1054.
I have telnet enabled on Windows 10.
I am connected to the scope via ethernet with verified IP.
I can open the IP and see the scope welcome screen.
I open PowerShell enter "telnet" and telnet opens

I enter "o 192.168.1.60 5555" and I get "Connecting To 192.168.1.60..."
and there it sits forever. I cannot enter anything more on the screen and must close the powershell.
It does the same thing with CMD.

what am I missing?

If I enter the wrong port number i get an error message that it can't open that port, so it must be opening the 5555 port.
Why can't I enter any commands?

If I start in powershell by entering "telnet 192.168.1.60 5555" it opens a window with a telnet banner and sits there as before. I can't enter any commands.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: jancumps on April 07, 2019, 01:39:47 pm
I just tried it with putty, on port 5555, and it works for me:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=698811;image)

SCPI is a non-echoing protocol, so you don't see what you type unless you turn on local echo in your terminal software.
Title: Connect and control by PC to capture waveforms
Post by: wasyoungonce on April 11, 2019, 05:59:01 am
Ok newbie at DSOs using DS1054Z connected using UltraSigma and UltraScope over LAN ok.....its clunky but crappy. 

I know its been discussed but wanted to ask...what other software to does it better?   Things like I can screen capture but images are crappy and are trace colours and background.  So asking before I tear my hair out.....thanks
Title: Re: Connect and control by PC to capture waveforms
Post by: ebastler on April 11, 2019, 06:17:00 am
Ok newbie at DSOs using DS1054Z connected using UltraSigma and UltraScope over LAN ok.....its clunky but crappy. 

I know its been discussed but wanted to ask...what other software to does it better?   Things like I can screen capture but images are crappy and are trace colours and background.  So asking before I tear my hair out.....thanks

My favorite for screen captures is Peter Dreisiebner's "Bildschirmkopie". Lightweight, convenient and quick; available for Windows, Mac OS and Linux. The web page is in German only, but the software GUI can be switched to English:

http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie/index.htm (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie/index.htm)
http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie/download.htm (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie/download.htm)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wasyoungonce on April 11, 2019, 06:28:43 am
Thanks downloading now.....I'm so frustrated with Ultrascope...only took a day!  Hahaha :-DD

edit:

Ahhhh much easier.....many thanks  :-+   ....already connected running....whooooSimple does what I want .

Are then any others like Sigrok?   Also looking for more advanced.  Bildschirmkopie looks great for simple screen grabs but also need  ....more options.
Title: Re: Connect and control by PC to capture waveforms
Post by: Fungus on April 11, 2019, 06:49:55 am
Ok newbie at DSOs using DS1054Z connected using UltraSigma and UltraScope over LAN

Ew! Delete it, now!

I think Sigrok works with DS1054Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 11, 2019, 07:08:36 am
Are then any others like Sigrok?   Also looking for more advanced.  Bildschirmkopie looks great for simple screen grabs but also need  ....more options.

There is also DSRemote, which allows you to control the scope and get a real-time display. Linux only, I believe, and you have to compile it yourself. I do not have personal experience with it.
https://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/ (https://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 11, 2019, 07:31:29 am
need  ....more options.

Like what? I can't read minds at this distance.
Title: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wasyoungonce on April 11, 2019, 08:09:35 am
need  ....more options.

Like what? I can't read minds at this distance.

Ahhh just to control basic functions over lan. For screen grabs.  I need to write a report include screen grabs pulses widths freq’s amplitude and some SPI decode.   But basic things.

Most grabs I can get away with basic screen grabs but as said many others will need measurements.

It’s just ultrascope is so clunky ......and crashes a lot already.    500mb of badness....sigh.

I’ll try sigrok

Many thanks gents


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 11, 2019, 08:27:31 am
For screen grabs you can also put in a USB stick and press the "Print" button.

Title: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wasyoungonce on April 11, 2019, 08:52:43 am
For screen grabs you can also put in a USB stick and press the "Print" button.


What.....I was using the storage button then selecting the USB then naming it....which is a real pain using the multi mode rotary knob .....I’m doing it wrong!   

Grrrrr maybe I need to watch some videos or find a cheat sheet. I’ve figured it out mostly myself....press enough buttons you’ll get it working ;)


Also moving the USB stick across is a real pain.....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on April 11, 2019, 04:40:34 pm
Another capture screen tool, GUI, Windows or Linux, free, open source, multiple instruments, remembers old captures, allows scripting, many more nice features, not mine:

EEZ Studio  :-+
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eez-studio-for-accessing-your-(scpi)-instruments/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eez-studio-for-accessing-your-(scpi)-instruments/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wasyoungonce on April 12, 2019, 01:51:47 am
Thanks RoGeorge...downloading now

edit:

yep up an running EEZ studio...appears easier to use than sigrok.....funny I got the "grok" bit straight away..."Robert Heinlein".....his works were sometimes...odd.

Anywayz thanks gents I have much to play with now...many thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 12, 2019, 06:17:20 am
Grrrrr maybe I need to watch some videos or find a cheat sheet. I’ve figured it out mostly myself....press enough buttons you’ll get it working ;)

Hmm, there is a manual. :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: wasyoungonce on April 12, 2019, 09:01:45 am
Grrrrr maybe I need to watch some videos or find a cheat sheet. I’ve figured it out mostly myself....press enough buttons you’ll get it working ;)

Hmm, there is a manual. :popcorn:

Actually to tell the truth..... I didn't even know till after i posted in this thread  :palm: I had the quick start booklet...I thought that was it.  Found the manual downloading ultra scope.  I've downloaded it now .....but meh...I'm a hanger pilot much more fun pushing buttons.....it'll work if you push enough! ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on April 12, 2019, 09:51:59 am
This is the last update manual 2018 http://int.rigol.com/Support/Manual/1 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/Manual/1)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on April 12, 2019, 09:59:35 am
Manual is last resort.

DS1054Z is intuitive enough not to need it really though.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 12, 2019, 06:09:24 pm
Grrrrr maybe I need to watch some videos or find a cheat sheet. I’ve figured it out mostly myself....press enough buttons you’ll get it working ;)

Hmm, there is a manual. :popcorn:

Actually to tell the truth..... I didn't even know till after i posted in this thread  :palm: I had the quick start booklet...I thought that was it.  Found the manual downloading ultra scope.  I've downloaded it now .....but meh...I'm a hanger pilot much more fun pushing buttons.....it'll work if you push enough! ;)

No worries. Glad you found it. Most of the scope is intuitive, but to "know what you don't know," as you mentioned earlier, it's good to have.

Enjoy your scope!
Title: Should this scope be able to trigger on a 100MHz signal without the hack?
Post by: spiff72 on April 13, 2019, 07:36:18 pm
New user of this scope (and electronics noob) and wanted to ask a simple question...

I have a 100Mhz signal connected (from an Si5351 clock generator).  It reads the signal fine, and identifies it as 100Mhz.  Should this be possible without having installed the hack that enables the 100Mhz bandwidth option?  Screen grabs are attached of this 100Mhz signal, and a 50Mhz signal from the same test board.

EDIT: Sorry - edited pics to mask the serial number.

EDIT: One more comment: The signal on the screen looks like a double image - 2 sine waves overlaid with slight differences.  My screen grabs don't replicate this detail, but the peaks are at slightly different levels.  My assumption is that this is a side effect of the fact that the bandwidth is just 50Mhz?

I am not an EE - actually an ME who is dabbling in electronics!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on April 13, 2019, 07:43:04 pm
That is correct. You will notice that the amplitude is lower however for the 100MHz signal.

On the second one it may be because your measurement set up isn’t terminated properly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on April 13, 2019, 09:40:41 pm
Welcome to the forum, spiff! ME's can have fun with electronics, too. :D

The maximum analog bandwidth of a scope just means that the amplitude will be a certain amount (usually 3 dB) lower than actual for a signal whose frequency is at the limit. It won't suddenly stop working. Beyond that point, the amplitude measured by the scope will continue to appear lower until it's lost in the noise.

So, you can definitely see signals faster than the bandwidth limit. Just keep in mind that the amplitude will be lower than actual.

The sampling rate limit will also affect the maximum frequency that a digital scope can measure and display correctly. If the signal's frequency becomes too high for the sampling rate, then the waveform reproduction will no longer be correct due to aliasing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliasing). Without enough samples per period, more than one possible waveform could fit the samples and the scope may show you the wrong thing. See also: Nyquist frequency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist_frequency).
Title: Re: Should this scope be able to trigger on a 100MHz signal without the hack?
Post by: Fungus on April 14, 2019, 07:59:42 am
I have a 100Mhz signal connected (from an Si5351 clock generator).  It reads the signal fine, and identifies it as 100Mhz.  Should this be possible without having installed the hack that enables the 100Mhz bandwidth option?

Yes. Signals don't vanish in a puff of smoke if they're too high, they gradually fade away. What you'll see if you look closely is that the voltage is lower than it should be.

There's a menu option for each channel (press the channel button) to set a 20Mhz bandwidth limit. Try turning that on/off and watch what happens on screen.
Title: Re: rise time
Post by: ruggb on April 20, 2019, 09:56:52 pm
new (last month) 1054Z with all upgrades and SP4 firmware.
When viewing the cal signal - as I change the time base, the displayed rise time changes.
The signal does not change so why does the displayed rise time change?

single channel, AC coupled, triggered @ ~ 50%, Vert = 100mv/, waveform centered, full rise of waveform on screen, using cursors.
Time Base (µs/) Rise Time µs
  1........................3.00
  2........................3.10
  5........................3.15
 10.......................3.50
 20.......................3.40
 50...................... 3.50
100......................5.00
200......................8.00
500.....................10.00

If this is a function of the sampling, what settings will show the correct rise time? I understand that there will be (and is) a variation at any setting because of the sampling and a longer time base will eliminate that. But going from 3µs to 10µs for different time base settings doesn't seems good.


Title: Re: Vertical position
Post by: ruggb on April 20, 2019, 10:04:07 pm
new (last month) 1054Z with all upgrades and SP4 firmware.
When viewing a PWM square wave -
single channel, AC coupled, triggered @ ~ 50%, Vert = 100mv/, waveform centered.
As the pulse width of the signal is changed, the position of the waveform on the screen changes.
50% - waveform is centered
60% - waveform moved down 50mv
70% - waveform moves down another 50mv
40% - waveform moves up 50mv
30% waveform moves up another 50mv

no settings changes on the scope, it is AC coupled, so why does it move?
Title: Re: Vertical position
Post by: ebastler on April 20, 2019, 10:10:14 pm
no settings changes on the scope, it is AC coupled, so why does it move?

It moves exactly because it is AC coupled. The average voltage of your signal changes as you vary the PWM duty cycle. And AC coupling puts this average voltage at the center of the scale.
Title: Re: Vertical position
Post by: ruggb on April 20, 2019, 10:57:48 pm
no settings changes on the scope, it is AC coupled, so why does it move?

It moves exactly because it is AC coupled. The average voltage of your signal changes as you vary the PWM duty cycle. And AC coupling puts this average voltage at the center of the scale.

I am trying to teach this old dog new tricks. thank you for your enlightnement
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on April 20, 2019, 11:38:49 pm
That is one of the reasons I like the peak-to-peak automatic triggering modes in old Tektronix oscilloscopes; the trigger point does not change as the duty cycle changes but it still tracks level changes.
Title: Re: rise time
Post by: Fungus on April 21, 2019, 05:38:59 pm
new (last month) 1054Z with all upgrades and SP4 firmware.
When viewing the cal signal - as I change the time base, the displayed rise time changes.
The signal does not change so why does the displayed rise time change?

Because all calculations on a DS1054Z are done using the "on screen" data. You get most accurate numbers when you zoom in.
Title: Re: rise time
Post by: ruggb on April 21, 2019, 08:44:20 pm
new (last month) 1054Z with all upgrades and SP4 firmware.
When viewing the cal signal - as I change the time base, the displayed rise time changes.
The signal does not change so why does the displayed rise time change?

Because all calculations on a DS1054Z are done using the "on screen" data. You get most accurate numbers when you zoom in.
Thanks, so for sample shown the 3.00µs is the closest, except that is most affected by the sample rate so it varies a lot
If the sample rate is 1Gs/S, what variation should I expect? It seems like it varies more that the sample rate would indicate. What else affects it?


Title: Re: rise time
Post by: Fungus on April 22, 2019, 02:34:08 pm
...all calculations on a DS1054Z are done using the "on screen" data. You get most accurate numbers when you zoom in.
It seems like it varies more that the sample rate would indicate.

It's nothing to do with the sample rate.

What else affects it?

It's the pixels on screen, nothing else.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lfldp on May 09, 2019, 06:46:37 pm
Hello i have few questions about rigol ds1054z

1. My rigol has 04.04.03 firmware i patched it in past to enable all features including 100mhz bandwitch , now i wants to update firmware to latest available and i dont know how? , should i delete feature hack after update it to latest firmware and patch again to enable all features ?

2. There are few pc-apps to communicate with rigol by using pc and store captured data but this isnt enough for my projects , lets say i need to store 50 - 100 captured traces of similiar signal each trace individually triggered
This feature is working by using function called waveform record , it can store many traces by recording and later is possibly to playing trace by trace/next trace etc. but these waveforms are recorded and stored inside rigol memory
So my question is about is possibly to download somehow from rigol all this recorded waveforms to PC after ? not live but after all recordings done
Thanks
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 09, 2019, 10:13:48 pm
1. My rigol has 04.04.03 firmware i patched it in past to enable all features including 100mhz bandwitch , now i wants to update firmware to latest available and i dont know how? , should i delete feature hack after update it to latest firmware and patch again to enable all features ?

No need to remove keys. Just roll the update - licenses will be carried over. The "hacked" keys are official keys due to bad implementation of key encryption. :)

2. There are few pc-apps to communicate with rigol by using pc and store captured data but this isnt enough for my projects , lets say i need to store 50 - 100 captured traces of similiar signal each trace individually triggered
This feature is working by using function called waveform record , it can store many traces by recording and later is possibly to playing trace by trace/next trace etc. but these waveforms are recorded and stored inside rigol memory
So my question is about is possibly to download somehow from rigol all this recorded waveforms to PC after ? not live but after all recordings done

You can simply write the recorded waveforms to a USB memory stick via the front USB port.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lfldp on May 10, 2019, 07:14:11 am
1. My rigol has 04.04.03 firmware i patched it in past to enable all features including 100mhz bandwitch , now i wants to update firmware to latest available and i dont know how? , should i delete feature hack after update it to latest firmware and patch again to enable all features ?

No need to remove keys. Just roll the update - licenses will be carried over. The "hacked" keys are official keys due to bad implementation of key encryption. :)

2. There are few pc-apps to communicate with rigol by using pc and store captured data but this isnt enough for my projects , lets say i need to store 50 - 100 captured traces of similiar signal each trace individually triggered
This feature is working by using function called waveform record , it can store many traces by recording and later is possibly to playing trace by trace/next trace etc. but these waveforms are recorded and stored inside rigol memory
So my question is about is possibly to download somehow from rigol all this recorded waveforms to PC after ? not live but after all recordings done

You can simply write the recorded waveforms to a USB memory stick via the front USB port.
1. thanks
2. I dont see that option in RIGOL DS1054Z i can save only one currently displayed  waveform to usb pendrive , but in waveform record menu is possibly only to record/play+repeat steps etc.. but option to copy all recorded waveforms to pc or usb is not available or did i miss something ?
Ive checked also rigol scpi commands and i dont see any commands related to dump waveform storage buffer to pc
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on May 10, 2019, 07:06:05 pm
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-and-mso1000z-exporting-waveform-to-computer/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-and-mso1000z-exporting-waveform-to-computer/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lfldp on May 11, 2019, 12:27:11 pm
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-and-mso1000z-exporting-waveform-to-computer/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-and-mso1000z-exporting-waveform-to-computer/)
it seems nobody is still understanding me :)
but ok ill try to explain again deeply

all this apps available for connect to rigol are able to download printscreen from rigol or saved waveform whatever which is available to load via rigol menu for display too

whats i wanna achieve there is to download all recorded traces which arent available for download to usb pendrive
there is one function in rigol called waveform recording option you can do long recordings trace next trace next trace etc.. later you can display/load them to rigol screen or delete after but there is no way to download them from rigol
the problem is i need record many traces as fast as possibly and download them
offcourse i can do one trace download it via pc app and do second trace and repeat download but this would be nightmare if so many traces like 50 - 100 will needed to download
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on May 11, 2019, 12:36:08 pm
I understand that DSRemote can download full waveform data, but have not used it myself:
https://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/ (https://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: WhichEnt2 on May 11, 2019, 12:41:28 pm
I can't recall such a feature in various 1054z related software.
Check the programming guide, it may be possble to do by scpi command.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lfldp on May 11, 2019, 01:34:04 pm
I can't recall such a feature in various 1054z related software.
Check the programming guide, it may be possble to do by scpi command.
@ebastler thanks i will check dsremote soon when i have access to linux system

well... looked into scpi commands in short but i dont see any commands related to my case

btw. have another question i think there is just one rigol osciloscope model who has external reference clock input (this function and port doesnt exist in DS1000 series)
with this function is possibly to synchronise oscilloscope with device clock to measure only on clock edges do anybody know is possibly somehow to mod DS1000 oscilloscopes to add this functionality ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 11, 2019, 02:24:12 pm
btw. have another question i think there is just one rigol osciloscope model who has external reference clock input (this function and port doesnt exist in DS1000 series)

It's missing from many (most?) 4-channel 'scopes. The trick is to use one of the 4 channels instead.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: newbrain on May 11, 2019, 03:17:02 pm
btw. have another question i think there is just one rigol osciloscope model who has external reference clock input (this function and port doesnt exist in DS1000 series)

It's missing from many (most?) 4-channel 'scopes. The trick is to use one of the 4 channels instead.
Using one of the channels (no need to display it) would do as a replacement for an external trigger, but I think lfldp was asking for an external reference clock, to be used in place of the internal oscillator e.g. to synchronize several instruments or for better time precision.
That kind of input is generally not available on cheap scopes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lfldp on May 11, 2019, 06:21:33 pm
i reply to few posts
thanks for help there
 @PeDre i understand about you wants to release something which i missed but only for currently used instruments by you (but i can do it myself too by adapting SCPI commands right?)

@Fungus offcourse you can do it like that but you get jitter you dont get clean trace 
@newbrain thats right this is exactly about whats i mentioned there whether the ext reference input clock is available in oscilloscope you can reduce needed sampling rate alot and perhaps thats why oscilloscope manufacturers dont installing that kind of options in low budget devices
anyways few months ago i read in google somwhere about there exist some kind of modiffications for certain oscilloscope manufactures to handle ext ref
well maybe after few years somebody would intend to reverse rigol firmware and to add some functions :) or maybe i do it myself it need access to fpga bitstream and could be big problem to add this feature do i have right ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: lfldp on May 11, 2019, 06:34:24 pm
@PeDre i understand about you wants to release something which i missed but only for currently used instruments by you (but i can do it myself too by adapting SCPI commands right?)

I have a DS1000Z and a self-programmed program. I can extend the program so that you can save the records from memory. You only have to specify the required data format. The program does not store any data at the moment.

Peter
ok
but the required data format by me or data format stored by rigol after recording done ?
if required data format by me i think is standard .wfm waveform , i think recording options store traces in same format
email sended
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 13, 2019, 05:15:58 pm
I did not double check if Rigol is keeping true to the initial specs, but AFAIK the .wfm waveform file type has been developed by Tektronix and all the specifications are to be found here: https://download.tek.com/manual/Waveform-File-Format-Manual-077022011.pdf
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: WhichEnt2 on May 14, 2019, 04:24:11 pm
There is a data-from-wfm wfm to csv converter (and C library) by Rigol https://rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/5 as well as some "waveform read" C# and matlab examples that can maybe shed some light on Rigol's wfm file structure.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: stj on May 16, 2019, 08:23:48 pm
you should do mac & linux builds or share the source.
purebasic is pretty universal.  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bulba99 on May 17, 2019, 05:22:22 pm
A new firmware is available.

https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0576/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Zver_04.04.04.02.zip (https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0576/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Zver_04.04.04.02.zip)

Quote
[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.04.02  2019/02/26
     - Add new encoder drivers
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on May 17, 2019, 05:54:31 pm
A new firmware is available.

https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0576/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Zver_04.04.04.02.zip (https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-0576/1/-/-/-/-/DS1000Zver_04.04.04.02.zip)

Quote
[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.04.02  2019/02/26
     - Add new encoder drivers

Old news.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: burkm on June 25, 2019, 01:54:39 pm
There is already a firmware version "DS1000Zver_04.04.04.03.zip" available from Rigol.
Downloaded it yesterday and upgraded my instrument already without a problem. Unfortunately I forgot, where I got that update from, but I think it had that infamous entry form in front: I entered some pretty name(s), "any" serial no  :) and the instrument model and => voila... got the latest update immediately in return: Link https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0025:d-0005/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm

By the way, all new DS1000Z oscilloscopes come with all options enabled now for "free". No more "illegal" hacking then...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on June 25, 2019, 02:55:02 pm
No need to fill in any forms, here you can download the firmware directly from the Chinese Rigol website:

https://rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (https://rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on June 25, 2019, 04:09:45 pm
No need to fill in any forms, here you can download the firmware directly from the Chinese Rigol website:

https://rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (https://rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Or the Rigol North America site
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rolycat on June 28, 2019, 02:43:41 am
I have updated the first post in this thread to reflect the latest firmware version, and the fact that new scopes come with all options unlocked.

I have assumed that the 'hack' is still required to enable 100MHz bandwidth on scopes such as the DS1054Z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: t_i_t_o on August 01, 2019, 07:38:31 pm
Continuing my test https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1109785/#msg1109785 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1109785/#msg1109785) with the same source signal i.e. the 100MHz SDRAM clock of the STM32F769 discovery board, now testing with a 500MHz 8pF Tek probe, it turns out my lovely Rigol has over than 300MHz bandwith (1.3 ns rise time as seen) :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on August 01, 2019, 10:44:35 pm
No, DS1054Z does not have 300MHz bandwidth.

That very small rise time is an artifact created by the DSP post-processing, DSP required for drawing on the screen a continuous line starting from only a few samples, when sinx/x is on and vector mode on.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on August 01, 2019, 11:02:06 pm
It also varies with signal level and volts/div setting which indicates that something uncouth is going on.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on August 01, 2019, 11:37:47 pm
Continuing my test https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1109785/#msg1109785 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1109785/#msg1109785) with the same source signal i.e. the 100MHz SDRAM clock of the STM32F769 discovery board, now testing with a 500MHz 8pF Tek probe, it turns out my lovely Rigol has over than 300MHz bandwith (1.3 ns rise time as seen) :)

Some where here (I think in the hugh Rigol thread), the DS1054Z, hacked to 100 MHz, has a measured -3 db bandwidth of 160 MHz.

Note- How about a screen snapshot from the scope instead of a hugh picture from a camera....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on August 02, 2019, 03:35:42 am
It also varies with signal level and volts/div setting which indicates that something uncouth is going on.

I think the display also varies with the spectrum of the incoming signal.  Didn't properly tested yet if the spectrum outside 100 MHz is the real cause, but I noticed that a 30 MHz square wave with a 10ns rise/fall time is displayed reasonably well, while the same 30 MHz and same voltage level from a TTL output (probably a 2ns fall/rise time, not specified in the generator's specs) is very distorted in various ways depending on the on/off status of the sinx/x mode and vector/dots mode.  The slow edge signal was taken from the signal output of a DG4102 DDS generator, while the fast edge signal was taken from the sync output of the same generator which sync output is described as TTL compatible.

I didn't double checked with an analog oscilloscope if the two signals were really the same square wave with the only difference in edges' speed, but I'm almost sure they were the same, because the artifacts I've seen were nothing like normal ringings or reflections.  They were weird and unnatural looking shapes that I've never seen before, clearly visible only when the fall/rise edges were << 10ns (for a 30 MHz square wave, 50%, TTL level, and the oscilloscope sampling rate at 250MSa/s).

Here's an example with sinx/x off, dots mode, run mode, for the same 30 MHz square signal except the second one has sharper edges:

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

Please note that we see so many dots because the oscilloscope is in run mode and many screens are overlapped, while the generator and the oscilloscope does not have the internal clocks synchronized.  The actual number of samples for a single trace is very small:

[attachimg=1]



Same 30 MHz slow vs fast edges, this time with sin(x)/x on:

[attachimg=4]

[attachimg=5]

Maybe I'll redo the test in a more controlled way and take some snapshots.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 02, 2019, 09:57:09 am
It also varies with signal level and volts/div setting which indicates that something uncouth is going on.

I think the problem is due to not zooming to maximum zoom. The DS1054Z does all calculations using "on-screen" pixels so for most accuracy in things like rise times you need to zoom in on the area of interest.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on August 03, 2019, 10:59:34 am
It also varies with signal level and volts/div setting which indicates that something uncouth is going on.

I think the problem is due to not zooming to maximum zoom. The DS1054Z does all calculations using "on-screen" pixels so for most accuracy in things like rise times you need to zoom in on the area of interest.

That has an effect on accuracy but reports of bandwidth vary over more than a 2:1 range.  Some are more than 3:1.  The DSOs I have used have no problem making accurate edge measurements over a 10:1 range in displayed signal amplitudes.  The shape of the waveform should not vary with amplitude.

Like we have discussed in the past, I suspect one of the amplifier stages suffers from slew rate limiting causing saturation or cutoff which also explains the odd 10 nanosecond recovery time under certain conditions.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on August 04, 2019, 09:27:07 am
Out of curiosity I rechecked the bandwidth of my hacked DS1054Z  over an extended range.  The -3db point is between 130-140 Mhz.  At 200 Mhz I measured -4.8 dB.  250Mhz  was -7.1 dB and 300 Mhz was -9.3 dB.    The signal source was accurate at -7.7 dB at 10M and within +- 0.1 dB over the frequency range measured.  Directly connected to the scope with a through 50 ohm termination.   I also checked the triggering which worked fine to 500 Mhz.  The display frequency measurement was by then jumping around all over the place around 500 Mhz.  Above 100 Mhz don't expect reliable measurements on your own scope unless you can calibrate it yourself and it may well vary with the vertical sensitivity settings.  However you can certainly view signals up to 300 Mhz  with some confidence that they are real.  The triggering, as has been mentioned before,  far exceeds the usable viewing bandwidth of the scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on August 04, 2019, 10:16:03 am
It also varies with signal level and volts/div setting which indicates that something uncouth is going on.

I think the problem is due to not zooming to maximum zoom. The DS1054Z does all calculations using "on-screen" pixels so for most accuracy in things like rise times you need to zoom in on the area of interest.

That has an effect on accuracy but reports of bandwidth vary over more than a 2:1 range.  Some are more than 3:1.  The DSOs I have used have no problem making accurate edge measurements over a 10:1 range in displayed signal amplitudes.  The shape of the waveform should not vary with amplitude.

Like we have discussed in the past, I suspect one of the amplifier stages suffers from slew rate limiting causing saturation or cutoff which also explains the odd 10 nanosecond recovery time under certain conditions.

-3dB point is between 130 and 140 MHz. Period. Measured with frequency sweep from a siggen, 50 OHm pass trough terminator scope side .
The only way.

Outrageous claims are coming from people that either don't understand -3dB part , or people who keep calculating bandwidth from impulse response, ignoring the fact that DS1000Z input freq response has an odd shape that favors edge sharpness and not nice frequency response..

Like JohnPen very nicely wrote (my measurements are very similar to his), you can use to see if your 250MHz clock works without problem.
That doesn't make it 250MHz scope. -3dB point does...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on August 04, 2019, 11:52:27 am
Actually, that doesn't reflect the complete situation: The DS1000Z has two physical, relay-switched sensitivity ranges in the input voltage divider. Further sensitivity adjustments are arranged via the internal digital gain modules in the HMCAD1511 ADC (https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwiNrdCakenjAhWJ66QKHVzdAYoQFjAAegQIBBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.analog.com%2Fmedia%2Fen%2Ftechnical-documentation%2Fdata-sheets%2Fhmcad1511.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3Gu4X1M4lcGx6j-l0cGQ5k).

As long as the high sensitivity range is selected (this means a less than 330mV/div true input sensitivity), the mentioned figures are correct. But if you change the sensitivity to 335mV/div or above and thus select the low gain input configuration, the 3dB bandwidth increases to somewhere around 220MHz. Of course, this test requires a generator that's capable of some decent output amplitude since the use of a terminator at the scope input is mandatory at these frequencies.

If this behavior is something that's useful in any way may be discussed controversely, I prefer a scope with an input configuration that wouldn't (substantially) change bandwidth when selecting a different sensitivity, especially if it isn't documented anywhere. Anyway, I guess it is what it is and the user's the one who's got to make best use of it. If it helps in some situations -- good, if it doesn't never mind ;) .

I hope this helps to enlighten the situation a little.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: xrunner on August 04, 2019, 12:38:02 pm
-3dB point is between 130 and 140 MHz. Period. Measured with frequency sweep from a siggen, 50 OHm pass trough terminator scope side .
The only way.

Here's my data. I measured 130 MHz for the -3 dB point.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/rogol-1054z-actual-bandwidth/msg1380072/#msg1380072 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/rogol-1054z-actual-bandwidth/msg1380072/#msg1380072)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on August 05, 2019, 01:52:31 am
Actually, that doesn't reflect the complete situation: The DS1000Z has two physical, relay-switched sensitivity ranges in the input voltage divider. Further sensitivity adjustments are arranged via the internal digital gain modules in the HMCAD1511 ADC (https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwiNrdCakenjAhWJ66QKHVzdAYoQFjAAegQIBBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.analog.com%2Fmedia%2Fen%2Ftechnical-documentation%2Fdata-sheets%2Fhmcad1511.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3Gu4X1M4lcGx6j-l0cGQ5k).

As long as the high sensitivity range is selected (this means a less than 330mV/div true input sensitivity), the mentioned figures are correct. But if you change the sensitivity to 335mV/div or above and thus select the low gain input configuration, the 3dB bandwidth increases to somewhere around 220MHz. Of course, this test requires a generator that's capable of some decent output amplitude since the use of a terminator at the scope input is mandatory at these frequencies.

Besides the inconsistent reports, three things make me think that the bandwidth varies with amplitude:

1. The DS1054Z only has *one* switchable input attenuator which so the input buffer has to operate over a range 10 times larger than many oscilloscopes.  This means the input slew rate is 10 times higher for a given frequency.

2. Per Dave's reverse engineering, the differential amplifier uses 3904s which are only marginally fast enough for a 100 MHz front end even at a lower signal level.  The equalization networks at the emitters show that the designers were pushing the transistors to their limits.

3. The screenshot below shows a non-linearity in the transient response which should not exist.  If this is a 100 MHz 3.5 nanosecond oscilloscope, then at most there should be signs of recovery rather than that flat slope for more than 5 nanoseconds.  To me that looks like a transistor was driven into saturation or cutoff.  The preshoot at 1 GS/s is also questionable.

What that all adds up to is that I suspect large signals applied to the input buffer result in slew rate limiting and besides the transient response issue, this results in a variation of bandwidth with signal level.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on August 05, 2019, 01:43:05 pm
David -
your assumption regarding the input amplifier getting close to saturation at higher input levels (or encountering problems because of its limited slew rate) sounds reasonable, but it doesn't actually appear to be the case. I just re-checked the bandwidth in the high sensitivity range of my DS1000Z at a setting of 5mV/div with an input signal level of round about 40mVpp.

If your assumption would be correct, I'ld expect a noticably higher bandwidth than with the scope set at 330mV/div, just before the relay switches in the additional analog divider, and fed with an input signal of 1.5Vpp (that's the maximum my SDG6000X will provide with the additional 50 ohms terminator at up to 350MHz). Actually, the bandwidth even appears to be a little higher at the higher input level.

The big difference is when the input sensitivity is changed to 335mV, enabling the divider. Risking to be boring, may I ask to please have a look at the attached screenshots, their file names should pretty well explain what you're seeing there (LR = Low Range, HR = High Range of the relay-operated input divider). I checked the output level of the SDG6000X to be constant within 0.1dB over the frequency range (HP437B + HP8482A).

Actually, I've got the impression that Rigol over-compensated the parasitic capacitances of the additional voltage divider in the high input range, thus emphasizing the high frequencies and causing the HF rolloff to appear slower than it actually is. It will be quite difficult to check this in an open DS1000Z frontend since any probing in this area will affect the performance of the circuitry. It's probably enough to know about this issue and keep it in mind when using the scope. Anyway, the owners buy a 50MHz scope, convince it to believe it's a 100MHz version and then want to use it up to 150+MHz? Sounds weird...  ;)

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on August 05, 2019, 03:23:03 pm
Anyway, the owners buy a 50MHz scope, convince it to believe it's a 100MHz version and then want to use it up to 150+MHz? Sounds weird...  ;)

Don't you think the DS1054Z and the DS1104Z share the same hardware and that, by using a software key the artificially limited bandwidth can be upgraded?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on August 05, 2019, 04:26:13 pm
Anyway, the owners buy a 50MHz scope, convince it to believe it's a 100MHz version and then want to use it up to 150+MHz? Sounds weird...  ;)

Don't you think the DS1054Z and the DS1104Z share the same hardware and that, by using a software key the artificially limited bandwidth can be upgraded?

I understood TurboTom's comment as just stating that us DS1054Z owners are a greedy bunch.  ;)
Buy 50 MHz, cheat your way into 100 MHz, then hope to get 150 MHz and beyond... 8)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on August 05, 2019, 04:33:29 pm
I understood TurboTom's comment as just stating that us DS1054Z owners are a greedy bunch.  ;)
Buy 50 MHz, cheat your way into 100 MHz, then hope to get 150 MHz and beyond... 8)

Not "hope", "expect".   ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on August 05, 2019, 05:16:43 pm
Indeed. That is my biggest expectation for the MSO5000 is something proportionately for nothing :)

I wish they’d hurry up and fix the bugs
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on August 05, 2019, 05:40:37 pm
Anyway, the owners buy a 50MHz scope, convince it to believe it's a 100MHz version and then want to use it up to 150+MHz? Sounds weird...  ;)

Don't you think the DS1054Z and the DS1104Z share the same hardware and that, by using a software key the artificially limited bandwidth can be upgraded?

I understood TurboTom's comment as just stating that us DS1054Z owners are a greedy bunch.  ;)
Buy 50 MHz, cheat your way into 100 MHz, then hope to get 150 MHz and beyond... 8)

Exactly!  >:D

P.S. Surely it's the same hardware, that has been sorted a long time ago.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 05, 2019, 06:21:09 pm
Indeed. That is my biggest expectation for the MSO5000 is something proportionately for nothing :)

I wish they’d hurry up and fix the bugs
The MSO5000 is frustrating. It's so close to absolutely crushing anything out there yet the slow UI and unsophisticated case design are letting it down. I have the feeling that the difference isn't even very significant in terms of NRE and manufacturing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on August 05, 2019, 06:40:37 pm
That was exactly the opinion I had on the thing when I played with it as well.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on August 06, 2019, 06:55:02 am
David -
your assumption regarding the input amplifier getting close to saturation at higher input levels (or encountering problems because of its limited slew rate) sounds reasonable, but it doesn't actually appear to be the case. I just re-checked the bandwidth in the high sensitivity range of my DS1000Z at a setting of 5mV/div with an input signal level of round about 40mVpp.

If your assumption would be correct, I'ld expect a noticably higher bandwidth than with the scope set at 330mV/div, just before the relay switches in the additional analog divider, and fed with an input signal of 1.5Vpp (that's the maximum my SDG6000X will provide with the additional 50 ohms terminator at up to 350MHz). Actually, the bandwidth even appears to be a little higher at the higher input level.

So it seems something else is going on although I do not consider that an improvement but rather a mystery.

Dave's reverse engineered schematics show some things which may be related to your test results but I have my doubts that the schematics are completely accurate; they show some odd things.

At some point maybe I can get ahold of one and test it myself.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: t_i_t_o on August 06, 2019, 07:50:22 am
Continuing my test https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1109785/#msg1109785 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1109785/#msg1109785) with the same source signal i.e. the 100MHz SDRAM clock of the STM32F769 discovery board, now testing with a 500MHz 8pF Tek probe, it turns out my lovely Rigol has over than 300MHz bandwith (1.3 ns rise time as seen) :)

Just to put some oil in the fire, here is the same signal, same Tek probe, but seen with 1.5GHz 8GS/s HP infinium. So compared to the rigol, we see a peak at the beginning of each pulse, where this peak is observed i.e. after the front. On rigol is at the end of the pulse - before the front. Any explanation? Bad interpolation?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: marber on August 06, 2019, 11:22:55 am
About 2.5 years ago I had to shelve my electronics hobby for a while. Lack of time (new baby, new house / home improvement work) as well as lack of space until that was done (baby room...). So I put everything in storage for the time being, including my DS1074Z-S.

This week I finally got some things setup again in my new house, in a new room, and with sometimes a bit of time available. It was a bit funny to return to reading this forum and still see the exact same discussions going on between mostly the same actors... ;)

The moment I took out my DS1074Z-S out of the box to put it on my desk and carefully flipped out one of its feet, it immediately snapped. Same with the other one. The tension of the springs was apparently enough to do that. So now... I have an oscilloscope on my desk that I can no longer tilt upwards in a decent way.

I suspect the plastics may have weakened a bit over time, perhaps from the sun, as also the plastic top of the oscilloscope has yellowed slightly from bromine. It used to be near a window in my old, small apartment. The feet have always been out of reach of the sun underneath, though. :)

Anyway... I see I may not be the only one with that problem (http://"https://hackaday.io/project/41272-rigol-ds1000-series-prosthetic-foot"), as a bit of googling I noticed a few Rigol DS1000Z feet designs on Thingiverse etc.

Before I go that route however, has anyone ever had any luck getting such replacement parts out of Rigol? :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on August 06, 2019, 11:00:30 pm
Just to put some oil in the fire, here is the same signal, same Tek probe, but seen with 1.5GHz 8GS/s HP infinium. So compared to the rigol, we see a peak at the beginning of each pulse, where this peak is observed i.e. after the front. On rigol is at the end of the pulse - before the front. Any explanation? Bad interpolation?

The problem cannot be interpolation when there is nothing to interpolate.  1 GS/s on the Rigol is a point every nanosecond so unless the Rigol is mangling the original sample points, there should be no problem.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Miti on August 09, 2019, 01:21:53 am
Today I turned on my Rigol DS1054Z after few weeks and the language was set to Chinese, HW counter was disabled, everything was messed up. I did a reset to default, enabled counter and everything seems to work ok. Should I be concerned?

And the answer is...yes, I should be. After few more power cycles it did it again. Back it goes the piece of crap.  |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Plasmateur on August 19, 2019, 01:49:38 am
Is using the window trigger the only way to get get a waveform across all the sample points?  For some reason, I cannot move the trigger position to the left in Edge trigger mode.

Perhaps there was an update which allows the trigger position to be moved to the far left while in edge trigger mode? Weird.



 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on August 19, 2019, 04:45:22 am
Is using the window trigger the only way to get get a waveform across all the sample points?  For some reason, I cannot move the trigger position to the left in Edge trigger mode.

Perhaps there was an update which allows the trigger position to be moved to the far left while in edge trigger mode? Weird.

Hmm -- I may be misunderstanding the question? When you say "move the trigger to the left", you mean the left edge of the screen?

To my knowledge, this has always been possible with the DS1054Z, in any trigger mode, and it certainly is possible now. In fact, you can move the trigger point well beyond the left edge of the screen. The "delay" display in the upper right of the screen will then tell you the time difference between the trigger point and the time window visible on the screen.

For you, what happens when you rotate the "horizontal position" knob to the left?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Miti on August 19, 2019, 10:43:37 am
One of the probes that came with the scope is open right at the pin of the BNC connector. They are not even two years opd and saw very little and gentle use. And the warranty is one year for the probes. We have a bunch of Tek probes at work that are used and abused for 10+ years. Do you have similar experience?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: delfinom on August 19, 2019, 11:11:59 am
Indeed. That is my biggest expectation for the MSO5000 is something proportionately for nothing :)

I wish they’d hurry up and fix the bugs
The MSO5000 is frustrating. It's so close to absolutely crushing anything out there yet the slow UI and unsophisticated case design are letting it down. I have the feeling that the difference isn't even very significant in terms of NRE and manufacturing.

I have a MSO5000.
I absolutely do not understand how it's UI is could be considered slow.

The Tektronix MSO4034B I have at work running the latest firmware, is far slower and crashes often when I do simple scope usage tasks like just changing the channel voltage scaling.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 19, 2019, 12:34:44 pm
I have a MSO5000.
I absolutely do not understand how it's UI is could be considered slow.

The Tektronix MSO4034B I have at work running the latest firmware, is far slower and crashes often when I do simple scope usage tasks like just changing the channel voltage scaling.
Moving signals across the screen is very sluggish. That's not really acceptable in a device in this bracket.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on August 19, 2019, 12:45:41 pm
Moving signals across the screen is very sluggish. That's not really acceptable in a device in this bracket.

Feel free not to buy one.

You'll miss out on getting a four channel, 350MHz, 8GSamp/sec., 400Mb memory, 'scope for under $1000 though.

Your choice.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 19, 2019, 12:56:41 pm
Feel free not to buy one.

You'll miss out on getting a four channel, 350MHz, 8GSamp/sec., 400Mb memory, 'scope for under $1000 though.

Your choice.  :popcorn:
Please read my comment delfinom quoted.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Plasmateur on August 20, 2019, 02:22:20 am
Is using the window trigger the only way to get get a waveform across all the sample points?  For some reason, I cannot move the trigger position to the left in Edge trigger mode.

Perhaps there was an update which allows the trigger position to be moved to the far left while in edge trigger mode? Weird.

Hmm -- I may be misunderstanding the question? When you say "move the trigger to the left", you mean the left edge of the screen?

To my knowledge, this has always been possible with the DS1054Z, in any trigger mode, and it certainly is possible now. In fact, you can move the trigger point well beyond the left edge of the screen. The "delay" display in the upper right of the screen will then tell you the time difference between the trigger point and the time window visible on the screen.

For you, what happens when you rotate the "horizontal position" knob to the left?

Let's say the scope is set to average mode

Trigger type is edge with rising slope triggering off ch.4

I use a signal generator to send a repeated pulsed sinewave to ch.2 and a trigger signal to ch.4. If I turn the knob counterclockwise, the trigger position appear to move left (shown in attached picture), however the trigger position is still at time 0 seconds. So if I save and plot the data, the signal will begin around halfway into the signal array. 

However if I use a window trigger (shown in attached picture) and move the time to to (Samples)/(Samplerate)/2,
or as shown in the picture (1200[points]/5e8[points/sec])/2 = 1.2e-6 seconds

then when I save and plot the data, the sinewave starts at the beginning of the array.





Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on August 20, 2019, 05:36:02 am
If I turn the knob counterclockwise, the trigger position appear to move left (shown in attached picture), however the trigger position is still at time 0 seconds. So if I save and plot the data, the signal will begin around halfway into the signal array. 

However if I use a window trigger (shown in attached picture) and move the time to to (Samples)/(Samplerate)/2,
or as shown in the picture (1200[points]/5e8[points/sec])/2 = 1.2e-6 seconds.
then when I save and plot the data, the sinewave starts at the beginning of the array.

Thanks for the additional explanation. Yes, you are right there: In "Edge" mode, the trigger event occurs as soon as the edge is detected. What you change via the delay setting (horizontal position knob) is not the position of the trigger event relative to your signal -- the timing between your trigger pulse on channel 4 and your signal burst is given by your signal generator. Rather, the delay setting determines the position of the captured and displayed data, relative to the trigger event.

With the more complex triggers (pulse width, delay, window etc.), the actual trigger event only occurs after whatever timing relation on the inputs you have defined as the trigger condition comes true. That's what you observe in your "window trigger" example.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: gardner on August 21, 2019, 10:59:35 pm
I searched for mentions of cursor with no joy.  Flog me with a wet noodle if this is a well known FAQ.

I do not see a way to use manual X cursors without having the Y ones also visible (also Y vs X).  I wind up having to tuck them down at the bottom or side.  Is there a way to selectively use X or Y cursors but not both that I am somehow missing?  Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on September 10, 2019, 09:12:54 am
As this thread is like the DS1054Z owners lair.  :-DD

Does any owner here, especially for those with expired warranty, and it was broken while in normal usage, and then fixed by yourself.

Just curious what are the commons problems once this scope "aged enough".

Common problem like bad cap is still unheard of, at least for me.

Anyone ?

Please don't discuss any of the existing known bugs, design flaws and etc, just want to hear, or hopefully we can come out with a list of common problems for this scope once they're aged.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: McBryce on September 10, 2019, 11:18:44 am
The DS1054Z was only released at the end of 2014. I would be extremely concerned if they had used capacitors that were already starting to fail.

McBryce.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 10, 2019, 11:34:46 am
I don't know, I don't use it any more.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on September 10, 2019, 06:41:02 pm
I haven't heard about age-related issues, yet. Most units probably don't have very high hours like scopes in a lab that may be on all day long.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: CatalinaWOW on September 10, 2019, 10:58:00 pm
Mine was a floor display model purchased about three years ago.  It probably got moderate use in the floor model phase of its life and it gets relatively light use since.  Weeks or months with no activity interspersed with several days or weeks of intense use.  It shows no signs of age degradation.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: StillTrying on September 11, 2019, 12:06:15 am
The problem cannot be interpolation when there is nothing to interpolate.  1 GS/s on the Rigol is a point every nanosecond so unless the Rigol is mangling the original sample points, there should be no problem.

There's often mentions around here that the rigol's displayed 'dots' are interpolated, I dunno meself.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-vs-siglent-sds1202x-e/msg2483973/#msg2483973 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-vs-siglent-sds1202x-e/msg2483973/#msg2483973)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on September 11, 2019, 07:22:20 am
On age degradation the only thing that worries me is the crappy feet. They feel like they’re going to die first.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on September 11, 2019, 07:33:02 am
On age degradation the only thing that worries me is the crappy feet. They feel like they’re going to die first.

Ditto, every times I lift it to pull both front feet, had the feeling that one day the plastic will rot and becoming so brittle, and finally snapped.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: borjam on September 11, 2019, 07:39:45 am
The problem cannot be interpolation when there is nothing to interpolate.  1 GS/s on the Rigol is a point every nanosecond so unless the Rigol is mangling the original sample points, there should be no problem.

There's often mentions around here that the rigol's displayed 'dots' are interpolated, I dunno meself.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-vs-siglent-sds1202x-e/msg2483973/#msg2483973 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-vs-siglent-sds1202x-e/msg2483973/#msg2483973)

Yes. At least in my opinion it's a bit confusing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2019, 10:15:42 am
Just to put some oil in the fire, here is the same signal, same Tek probe, but seen with 1.5GHz 8GS/s HP infinium. So compared to the rigol, we see a peak at the beginning of each pulse, where this peak is observed i.e. after the front. On rigol is at the end of the pulse - before the front. Any explanation? Bad interpolation?

The problem cannot be interpolation when there is nothing to interpolate.  1 GS/s on the Rigol is a point every nanosecond so unless the Rigol is mangling the original sample points, there should be no problem.

Even if it was mangling the points you'd only notice the mangling with more than two channels on. The difference would be close to zero at 1GS/s.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MatthewTx on February 19, 2020, 08:45:11 pm
Are the buttons nice hard plastic, or are they rubbery and soft? I can't tell from pictures and reviews I've seen online.
Seems like an obscure piece of data, yet easy for anyone (who owns one) to provide.

Thanks,

Matthew
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 19, 2020, 08:47:19 pm
Hi,

rubbery and soft... ;)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MatthewTx on February 19, 2020, 09:03:54 pm
Are there any sub-$500 oscilloscopes that you know of which DO have hard, plastic, tactile, satisfying-to-press buttons?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on February 19, 2020, 09:15:30 pm
Are there any sub-$500 oscilloscopes that you know of which DO have hard, plastic, tactile, satisfying-to-press buttons?
Doubtful, since tactile buttons (in particular, the button caps themselves and the additional assembly cost) cost a lot more than rubber membrane buttons, so they’re kinda the first thing to go when cost-cutting...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on February 19, 2020, 09:19:34 pm
Are there any sub-$500 oscilloscopes that you know of which DO have hard, plastic, tactile, satisfying-to-press buttons?
Not all buttons need to be plastic nor do they want to be as it restricts the designers to not being able to use LED backlight to show certain modes are selected.
The flexible membrane buttons have proven to be very reliable in scopes.

I think you need get to a shop that has a few brands of scopes and have a play with a few in order to find one that gives you the physical feedback you seek.
Unusual request but ymmv.  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 19, 2020, 09:30:54 pm
Are there any sub-$500 oscilloscopes that you know of which DO have hard, plastic, tactile, satisfying-to-press buttons?

You can have a look at scope which costs 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000 and beyond, you won´t find a scope without rubber keys and carbon contacts.
Last scopes I known were analog ones from the early 1990s, which used mechanical switches.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on February 19, 2020, 09:56:34 pm
Are there any sub-$500 oscilloscopes that you know of which DO have hard, plastic, tactile, satisfying-to-press buttons?
18000 USD Keysight MSOX3104T has rubber keypad...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: coppice on February 19, 2020, 10:00:17 pm
Are there any sub-$500 oscilloscopes that you know of which DO have hard, plastic, tactile, satisfying-to-press buttons?
18000 USD Keysight MSOX3104T has rubber keypad...
$100k comms test sets have rubber keypads. There no longer seem to be any other types used in new equipment.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on February 20, 2020, 01:45:01 pm
Are there any sub-$500 oscilloscopes that you know of which DO have hard, plastic, tactile, satisfying-to-press buttons?
Not all buttons need to be plastic nor do they want to be as it restricts the designers to not being able to use LED backlight to show certain modes are selected.
Of course you can make plastic buttons that illuminate. It just pushes the cost even higher! :P

It is funny how different industries do or don't adopt different cost saving measures. You never see, for example, home cinema receivers with rubber membrane buttons, they use tact switches, often with elaborate lighting on higher end gear.* Similarly, that industry still uses a lot of VFDs, even as most other areas of electronics has abandoned them in favor of LCD or OLED.

*They also often use the quality of buttons on remote controls as a product differentiator: cheap devices have remotes with rubber buttons, high end models have remotes with tactile switches. My Panasonic plasma TV, the top of the line of its model year, has a magnificently well made remote, with tact domes on a real PCB, then a rubber membrane, designed to gasket against liquid intrusion, and then plastic keycaps, each individually keyed to ensure each key fits only in the correct position. A friend of mine bought the entry level model of the same year, and it came with a simple rubber button remote with identical functionality.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: stuartmp on March 25, 2020, 09:41:49 am
Hi All,

Not sure is this is the best place to post this but, here goes.
I wanted let you guys know that I have made a Bode Plotter for the DS-1000Z scopes.
I knew that the DS1054Z could not create Bode plots, but that did not stop me wanting to create one.
So I started searching for viable solutions.

I first found Dave's YouTube clip showing a way you can sort of do it, but not quite.
See here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMH2hGvqhlE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMH2hGvqhlE)
So I continued to search for more inspiration.

I then came across this python script https://github.com/jbtronics/DS1054_BodePlotter (https://github.com/jbtronics/DS1054_BodePlotter)
Which shows a DS1054z Scope connected to a JDS6600 AWG.

So I thought maybe I can make my own. So I got to work writing my own Python script and a week or two later I finished it.
I works with a DS1000Z Series Scope connected to a DG4000 Series AWG.
I think the code could be easily modified to work with pretty much any AWG that has a LAN connection and supports scripting commands.

Here are some screen shots of a basic low pass filter.
I was blown away by the accuracy.

Hope you guy's like it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on March 25, 2020, 09:51:15 am
Nice work. I've got a similar thing I was using with my DG1022Z and DS1054Z. I've not got an SDS1202X-E and a DG822 and haven't updated them yet  :(

The ability to "compose" instruments is a killer feature these days.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Helix70 on March 28, 2020, 02:25:01 am
Hi All,

Not sure is this is the best place to post this but, here goes.
I wanted let you guys know that I have made a Bode Plotter for the DS-1000Z scopes.
I knew that the DS1054Z could not create Bode plots, but that did not stop me wanting to create one.
So I started searching for viable solutions.

I first found Dave's YouTube clip showing a way you can sort of do it, but not quite.
See here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMH2hGvqhlE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMH2hGvqhlE)
So I continued to search for more inspiration.

I then came across this python script https://github.com/jbtronics/DS1054_BodePlotter (https://github.com/jbtronics/DS1054_BodePlotter)
Which shows a DS1054z Scope connected to a JDS6600 AWG.

So I thought maybe I can make my own. So I got to work writing my own Python script and a week or two later I finished it.
I works with a DS1000Z Series Scope connected to a DG4000 Series AWG.
I think the code could be easily modified to work with pretty much any AWG that has a LAN connection and supports scripting commands.

Here are some screen shots of a basic low pass filter.
I was blown away by the accuracy.

Hope you guy's like it.

Looks intersting. Did you put your code on Github for the DG4000 series? If it is easy to modify, I might have a go at getting it going on the HP 33210A. My python is limited...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on June 16, 2020, 09:17:33 am
Navigational Warning

Don't flash the Z-E firmware in the old DS1000Z scope!

Because it seems Rigol made an error and it's possible to flash the 1st released version in the older machine, limiting it to 2 channels.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SERJSOCHI on August 22, 2020, 11:38:06 pm
Warning! Only perfectionists will be able to understand the small minor interface changes I have made.

I got tired of seeing the "STOP/WAIT/AUTO" indicator shifted up, so I edited it.
I was also annoyed by letters in "WA IT" word, I made it readable "W A I T".

I also got the idea to display an "empty loading interface" during startup, this allowed me to create the feeling of a smooth transition from loading to work. I made it too.

EDIT: Added button fix. ALL right panel buttons now have same height and position.
EDIT2: Right panel border color now same as left panel border.
EDIT3: Changed progress bar.
EDIT4: Changed channel blur labels and button highliting, changed exit menu button.


(Tested on ds1054z, based on FW 00.04.04.04.03, project folder https://yadi.sk/d/-GBWnMQ16S703g (https://yadi.sk/d/-GBWnMQ16S703g))
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 23, 2020, 03:19:23 am
Nicely done, SERJSOCHI. I especially like the kerning fix in the "WAIT" label. Now, if the values could be aligned with the rest of the text, it'd be perfect.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SERJSOCHI on August 23, 2020, 07:18:51 pm
Thank you.

the values
I don't know how to move values yet. I tried to move the panel down, but then the trigger value is at the wrong level in relation to other values.

I added some changes and edited previous post. Now I love my ds1054z.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on August 23, 2020, 07:32:37 pm
Moving the values will probably require hacking the position data for the field output. I'm not sure that has been done before. Maybe someday.

Your fixes look great. :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on August 23, 2020, 07:41:41 pm
Can you correct the abhorrent, stark and surprising use of serif fonts everywhere as well please (like when you save a screen cap) :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on August 26, 2020, 09:15:53 pm
Seems right to add this information to this thread as well, in order to alert all 10x4z users of this bug.

Acquisition at 500ms and 5s with 24M memory depth is affected by a timing bug that will cause timing errors of 4% and 20%, respectively. The thread for this bug is here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-1054z-and-1074z-timing-problems-at-500ms-timescale-and-24m-memory-depth/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-1054z-and-1074z-timing-problems-at-500ms-timescale-and-24m-memory-depth/)

As of now it affects the latest version of firmware and Rigol has replied to a bug report with "install the current firmware". The one affected by the bug.

EDIT:  corrected the timebases, it's ms and s, not ns!!!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on August 27, 2020, 02:18:34 am
but they say that with the latest version of the firmware, that error also appears. What is the last one really? v00.04.04.04.03 30/05/2019  this does not correct the error
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on August 27, 2020, 10:06:03 pm
but they say that with the latest version of the firmware, that error also appears. What is the last one really? v00.04.04.04.03 30/05/2019  this does not correct the error

Exactly. So far Rigol's response has been "try to flash the latest firmware", ignoring that the bug appears on the latest firmware.
This bug affects all the DS/MSO 1000Z family: DS1054z, DS1074z, DS1104z and the mixed signal oscilloscope of the same type.

I wonder if Rigol will actually care to fix the bug.
I would be extremely pissed off if they didn't.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SERJSOCHI on September 05, 2020, 07:36:53 pm
serif fonts
I inspected all 6 fonts in guiResData.hex, they are non-serif, so to change serif fonts we need find it in SparrowAPP.out. No idea how to do that.


I made Simple UI for ds1054z:
- changed tray icons.
- changed buttons.
- trigger marker now fully visible at vertical axis.
- new integrating boot logo.
- another small changes, include post #4514 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3200814/#msg3200814).

(Tested on ds1054z, based on FW 00.04.04.04.03, project folder https://yadi.sk/d/-GBWnMQ16S703g (https://yadi.sk/d/-GBWnMQ16S703g) )
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pitfermi on September 05, 2020, 09:53:54 pm
i have a device which has an uart interface. I am capturing the boot log using a ds1054z, i see the signal on the scope and want to decode it.
i am using roll mode, because i want to check a particular sequence of bits when reading the TX pin of the device. as soon as the bit sequence is inside the screen I press STOP button on the top. since the scope is still in roll mode, i cant enable decoding on the fly. is there a way to save the captured signal exactly as it was read and decode it later? if no, how can i decode on the fly only a particular time interval of the uart output? thanks in advance
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on September 05, 2020, 10:02:01 pm
You need to learn to use triggering.
You can trigger on specific UART characters in boot sequence..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pitfermi on September 05, 2020, 10:52:06 pm
You need to learn to use triggering.
You can trigger on specific UART characters in boot sequence..

i dont even know what the uart outputs, thats the problem. can you be more specific for this scope? or maybe a short demonstration video? sorry, i'm new to using scopes
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on September 05, 2020, 11:05:00 pm
Sorry but I haven't a clue what you are looking for.
All I know that you can trigger on many trigger types and you should study triggering in user manual, and then figure out which one to use for this..
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on September 06, 2020, 06:11:24 am
i have a device which has an uart interface. I am capturing the boot log using a ds1054z, i see the signal on the scope and want to decode it.
[...] is there a way to save the captured signal exactly as it was read and decode it later?

Are you sure you want to do this via the Rigol at all? If you need to analyze a larger chunk of serial data, and its timing relative to other output signals is not relevant, I would strongly recommend that you read it into a PC directly (via a serial-to-USB interface and a terminal program). Much easier to search or filter the data on the PC screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: pitfermi on September 06, 2020, 07:23:43 am
i tried using a usb to ttl(3.3v) dongle with putty, it couldnt decode the stream for some reason. tried all possible baudrates. thats why i wanted to troubleshoot it further utilizing the scope and freeze the stream and read a specific portion of it. the data could be corrupt or just random(test pin), not sure

i have a device which has an uart interface. I am capturing the boot log using a ds1054z, i see the signal on the scope and want to decode it.
[...] is there a way to save the captured signal exactly as it was read and decode it later?

Are you sure you want to do this via the Rigol at all? If you need to analyze a larger chunk of serial data, and its timing relative to other output signals is not relevant, I would strongly recommend that you read it into a PC directly (via a serial-to-USB interface and a terminal program). Much easier to search or filter the data on the PC screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on September 06, 2020, 07:44:10 am
Then use the scope to figure out the data format, and subsequently the PC to read all data and look for relevant content.

For the first steps, you don't need serial decoding at all: Check the "idle" signal level (high or low); check the minimum duration of a bit to figure out the baud rate.

If you want to endable decoding on the Rigol, you can do that, and it does work on a stored trace -- decoding essentially happens during the screen display rendering, if I recall correctly. You will need to tell the scope which channel to decode, and what the signal polarity, baud rate etc. are. So it is not more "automatic" than the decoding your PC provides, and only a little more flexible (the signal polarity can be chosen). Since decoding does work from the screen contents, the Rigol scope can only decode bytes which are fully displayed on the screen, from start bit to end.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alexalr on September 06, 2020, 09:33:24 am
Navigational Warning

Don't flash the Z-E firmware in the old DS1000Z scope!

Because it seems Rigol made an error and it's possible to flash the 1st released version in the older machine, limiting it to 2 channels.
Thought the Chinese made a general update for the Z, E series, and it turned out Z-E is a separate model and broke its Rigol DS1054Z. The oscilloscope had firmware 00.04.04.04.03, confusing the update file, instead of DS1000Z downloaded DS1000Z-E versions 00.06.02.00 01 from here https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/. (https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/.) The set received an update, rebooted and as a result works, but there are no two channels, channels 1 and 2 work. Channels 3 and 4 are not enabled. As I realized - poured firmware for DS1202Z-E. Tried to upgrade with the 00.04.04.04.03 version, but the set does not see the update... Is it possible to restore DS1054Z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on September 06, 2020, 10:25:26 am
Is it possible to restore DS1054Z?

I think this file should solve your problem.

(It should have been Rigol to solve it...)

Report if it is ok as I don't touch this stuff for many moons.

Edit: Removed the file as Rigol (IMHO unconsciously) made it obsolete. Read next messages.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alexalr on September 06, 2020, 11:16:31 am
Is it possible to restore DS1054Z?

I think this file should solve your problem.

(It should have been Rigol to solve it...)

Report if it is ok as I don't touch this stuff for many moons.
I managed to restore the full functioning of the oscillograph in my own way, by substituting, but now I will look at your method. Now I'm not afraid to kill the machine - everything is easily restored.
Now I will again run the device with the version for Z-E and try to bring it back to life in your way. The changes you made to the firmware file interest me.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on September 06, 2020, 11:34:40 am
The changes you made to the firmware file interest me.

Here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsxxxx-gel-firmware-file-format/msg1479419/#msg1479419)

Long ago this stopped from being rocket science...

Supposedly you can flash my crafted FW anytime as it will flash the 00.04.04.04.03 stock file over the DS Z-E 00.06.02.00.01.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alexalr on September 06, 2020, 01:04:59 pm
The changes you made to the firmware file interest me.

Here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsxxxx-gel-firmware-file-format/msg1479419/#msg1479419)

Long ago this stopped from being rocket science...

Supposedly you can flash my crafted FW anytime as it will flash the 00.04.04.04.03 stock file over the DS Z-E 00.06.02.00.01.
wrote your file to USB, but the oscillograph says "USB device detected" and does not see the update. Your way didn't work. I replaced the version text in the original firmware file and changed the firmware name, only then the oscillograph restored its functionality with 4 channels. When I sewed the device with the Z-E version, there was a 2ns scan, we need to try to add this scan to the original firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on September 06, 2020, 01:56:07 pm
[...] we need to try to add this scan to the original firmware.

„we“.
Alright, go ahead then.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on September 06, 2020, 02:18:33 pm
wrote your file to USB, but the oscillograph says "USB device detected" and does not see the update. Your way didn't work.

Did you unzip it?  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alexalr on September 06, 2020, 03:17:53 pm
wrote your file to USB, but the oscillograph says "USB device detected" and does not see the update. Your way didn't work.

Did you unzip it?  :-//
Of course I unpacked, and how else I made updates with similar files. I placed this file in a DS1000ZUpdate.GEL USB stick root. The bootloader checks the update version, which is located at 10h in the firmware file, and the version is lower than the one that is already firmware ignores. I changed the entry 00.04.04.04.03 to 00.06.02.00.01, that is, to the one that was already in the memory of the oscillograph, but he again did not accept it. I had to change the name of the firmware from DS1000ZUpdate.GEL to DS1000Z-EUpdate.GEL, only after that the oscillograph adopted the update. All 4 channels are fully operational.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on September 06, 2020, 03:22:55 pm
I changed the entry 00.04.04.04.03 to 00.06.02.00.01, that is, to the one that was already in the memory of the oscillograph, but he again did not accept it. I had to change the name of the firmware from DS1000ZUpdate.GEL to DS1000Z-EUpdate.GEL, only after that the oscillograph adopted the update. All 4 channels are fully operational.

Did you do these changes in a stock FW or in my FW?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alexalr on September 06, 2020, 03:28:56 pm
Thank you.

the values
I don't know how to move values yet. I tried to move the panel down, but then the trigger value is at the wrong level in relation to other values.

I added some changes and edited previous post. Now I love my ds1054z.
And I will completely love when I manage to add a 2ns scan
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alexalr on September 06, 2020, 03:33:03 pm
I changed the entry 00.04.04.04.03 to 00.06.02.00.01, that is, to the one that was already in the memory of the oscillograph, but he again did not accept it. I had to change the name of the firmware from DS1000ZUpdate.GEL to DS1000Z-EUpdate.GEL, only after that the oscillograph adopted the update. All 4 channels are fully operational.

Did you do these changes in a stock FW or in my FW?
I made changes to the original firmware file 00.04.04.04.03 before you sent me your file.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on September 06, 2020, 03:36:32 pm
I made changes to the original firmware file 00.04.04.04.03 before you sent me your file.

So that means Rigol disabled the footer verification of the header's version # in the Z-E!  :palm:

Everyone can downgrade a Z-E just by changing the version # in the file header. Let's see for how long...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alexalr on September 06, 2020, 03:39:12 pm
Navigational Warning

Don't flash the Z-E firmware in the old DS1000Z scope!

Because it seems Rigol made an error and it's possible to flash the 1st released version in the older machine, limiting it to 2 channels.
Did you kill your oscillograph with a Z-E firmware, too?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on September 06, 2020, 03:40:03 pm
Navigational Warning

Don't flash the Z-E firmware in the old DS1000Z scope!

Because it seems Rigol made an error and it's possible to flash the 1st released version in the older machine, limiting it to 2 channels.
Did you kill your oscillograph with a Z-E firmware, too?

No, never had one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: alexalr on September 06, 2020, 03:45:05 pm
I made changes to the original firmware file 00.04.04.04.03 before you sent me your file.

So that means Rigol disabled the footer verification of the header's version # in the Z-E!  :palm:

Everyone can downgrade a Z-E just by changing the version # in the file header. Let's see for how long...
I agree, I'm just lucky   ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rea on October 10, 2020, 07:17:01 pm
Good evening.

Re-did the interface for Rigol DS1000Z (tested only at DS1054Z): the stock one is a bit underworked, as to me.  Had not revised and fixed most help items, but other stuff should be fairly complete and consistent.

Firmware is 00.04.04.04.03 with no modifications to the binaries -- just GUI resources and logo.

Download links:
 
Feedback is welcome; for any issues, please, try to include screenshots and model for me to understand how the things are laid out at your device.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 10, 2020, 07:33:31 pm
Do you have screenshots before/after?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rea on October 10, 2020, 07:45:29 pm
Only the "after" ones: "before" was completely stock.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Jon Wilder on December 07, 2020, 07:02:20 am
is there a way to save the captured signal exactly as it was read and decode it later? if no, how can i decode on the fly only a particular time interval of the uart output? thanks in advance

After hitting "RUN|STOP", press Storage. Press the top right line select key (next to STORAGE on the display) and select "Waves". Then press save, select the location to save to. Then press New File, name the file, then press OK.

Once saved, you can then reload the wave file at any time and decode later.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Anthocyanina on February 03, 2021, 09:12:11 am
Does anyone know of a screen replacement that works with this oscilloscope? (more exactly, the 1104z, but that one doesn't seem to have a thread) i'm asking since mine is currently being shipped, not in the original packaging, and post office people here are awful at handling things, so it may arrive broken and i'd like to be prepared if that happens.

Thank you!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bateau020 on February 04, 2021, 07:12:15 am
Firmware is 00.04.04.04.03 with no modifications to the binaries -- just GUI resources and logo.
....
Feedback is welcome; for any issues, please, try to include screenshots and model for me to understand how the things are laid out at your device.
Just stumbled upon this, and saw no feedback. A shame, because I really like it. Good work.
Especially like the trigger icons, they are a lot clearer to me now (needed glasses to see the differences before).
The menu highlights (blue title bar) are very nice too, much clearer.
The only thing I fancy less is the boot logo/startup screen: a bit too flashy for me, but that was easily changed through RigolPacker.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tooki on February 16, 2021, 12:28:32 pm
Does anyone know of a screen replacement that works with this oscilloscope? (more exactly, the 1104z, but that one doesn't seem to have a thread) i'm asking since mine is currently being shipped, not in the original packaging, and post office people here are awful at handling things, so it may arrive broken and i'd like to be prepared if that happens.

Thank you!
Any update? Did it arrive OK?

IIRC from when I took mine apart to put in a quieter fan and replace the rotary encoder with one with detents, the LCD actually has a fairly thick plastic panel over it. I suspect they can take a bit of abuse, compared to a “naked” TFT like in non-touchscreen laptops, etc.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bastech on March 30, 2021, 06:13:32 am
Hi. 
I made a big mistake, in my oscillograph DS 1054Z there was firmware 00.04.04.04.03. I mixed up the update file, instead of DS1000Z downloaded DS1000Z-E versions of 00.06.02.00 01 from here https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/. (https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/.)
The oscillograph received an update, rebooted and as a result works, but there are no two channels, channels 1 and 2 works fine. Channels 3 and 4 are not enabled.
As I realized - installed firmware for DS1202Z-E. Tried to upgrade with the 00.04.04.04.03 version, but the set does not see the update...
Is possible to restore the original firmware for DS1054Z?

Thanks for help.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Anthocyanina on March 30, 2021, 07:10:26 am
Does anyone know of a screen replacement that works with this oscilloscope? (more exactly, the 1104z, but that one doesn't seem to have a thread) i'm asking since mine is currently being shipped, not in the original packaging, and post office people here are awful at handling things, so it may arrive broken and i'd like to be prepared if that happens.

Thank you!
Any update? Did it arrive OK?

IIRC from when I took mine apart to put in a quieter fan and replace the rotary encoder with one with detents, the LCD actually has a fairly thick plastic panel over it. I suspect they can take a bit of abuse, compared to a “naked” TFT like in non-touchscreen laptops, etc.

Oh, sorry, i missed this reply. It arrived Ok-ish, DHL seems to have played piñata with it and the back casing arrived broken, but at least it is still functional
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on March 30, 2021, 09:46:46 am
Is possible to restore the original firmware for DS1054Z?

I think this solves the problem.

Edit: File removed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bastech on March 30, 2021, 10:56:03 am
Thank you, I will try tonight and let me know about the results.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bastech on March 30, 2021, 03:24:04 pm

I think this solves the problem.

Unfortunately, unchanged. The update attempt ends with a mistake: "Update was failured"
There is a firmware version on the next photo.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on March 30, 2021, 03:30:55 pm
Unfortunately, unchanged. The update attempt ends with a mistake: "Update was failured"
There is a firmware version on the next photo.

:( Love that msg. Let me have another look.

Try this one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bastech on March 30, 2021, 04:26:19 pm
:( Love that msg. Let me have another look.

Try this one.

Same. "Update was failured" I used two 8GB pendrives and nothing.
I also sent an e-mail to Rigol Support but have not been responsible for several days.
Echh it's through my hurry, better slower but more precisely ...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 30, 2021, 05:21:09 pm
Is this the same problem as discussed here?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/error-updating-rigol-ds1054z/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/error-updating-rigol-ds1054z/)

Reply #7 in that thread describes a solution which worked back then. But that may be what tv84 has prepared aready?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on March 30, 2021, 05:41:50 pm
Is this the same problem as discussed here?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/error-updating-rigol-ds1054z/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/error-updating-rigol-ds1054z/)

 :-+ I knew this was already discussed but I didn't find it.

I think the solution then was something like this file attached. Flash it over a DS1kZ with wrong DS1kZ-E FW.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bastech on March 30, 2021, 07:18:17 pm
I think the solution then was something like this file attached. Flash it over a DS1kZ with wrong DS1kZ-E FW.

Again the same error.
I think it's a waste of time for that.
Thank you tv84 for your help. Maybe in the future someone will find a solution. And now ... the two channels are worse than four but better than nothing ;-)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on March 30, 2021, 07:30:47 pm
Again the same error.
I think it's a waste of time for that.
Thank you tv84 for your help. Maybe in the future someone will find a solution. And now ... the two channels are worse than four but better than nothing ;-)

We are missing a step. According to sebastos08's msg in that thread, BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING, you have to flash the 00.06.02.00.01 (here (https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/p-00ac/Bct/-/-/ct67_0/1/d?sid=TV2%3AQ2jKaGpUj)).

I think only after that you can flash my previous file.

Try and report.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bastech on March 30, 2021, 08:08:52 pm
We are missing a step. According to sebastos08's msg in that thread, BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING, you have to flash the 00.06.02.00.01 (here (https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/p-00ac/Bct/-/-/ct67_0/1/d?sid=TV2%3AQ2jKaGpUj)).

I think only after that you can flash my previous file.

Try and report.

Yes, successful !!!
I uploaded version 00.06.02.00.01 but I had to change the file name to DS1000ZUpdate.GEL
After this operation, in the System -> Model was already as DS1104Z but only two channels were active

Then I uploaded Your last file by changing its name to DS1000Z-EUpdate.GEL
After restarting everything works as it should with four channels.
I had to change file names because without this updates were invisible to the oscilloscope.

Thank you very much for Your help, without You, I would not do this repair.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Anthocyanina on March 31, 2021, 10:34:13 am
Hi! since i've had this oscilloscope, it ocasionally reboots itself seemingly at random. At first i didn't pay attention to it since i've left it on and it rebooted itself after at least 20 or 30 minutes since i last touched it, so i thought it must have been some time out thing, but today, that i've been using it pretty much the entire day it's rebooted on its own a couple of times while i changed a setting, or at most a couple of minutes since i last interacted with it in any way, and just now, that i turned it on again after about an hour that i turned it off, it rebooted itself not two minutes later!
Every time it has rebooted itself, the display turns off first, then the buttons turn off, then the relays click and then it turns on on its own in the same way it would as when you press the power button. Any idea of what could be causing this? Thank you!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on March 31, 2021, 11:25:52 am
Sounds like a crash and watchdog reboot. Possibly RAM/CPU issue.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 31, 2021, 11:34:46 am
Sounds like a crash and watchdog reboot. Possibly RAM/CPU issue.
Also could be a brownout detection and reset by power monitor because of some of the power buses having sags or increased ripple, or some other combination of problems on power buses. What sucks is that you need a scope to troubleshoot that ....
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 31, 2021, 12:21:08 pm
Also could be a brownout detection and reset by power monitor because of some of the power buses having sags or increased ripple, or some other combination of problems on power buses. What sucks is that you need a scope to troubleshoot that ....

You could use a multimeter to check the power supply voltages inside the 'scope to make sure they're OK.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on March 31, 2021, 12:27:19 pm
This sort of stuff is why I’d rather pay 2x as much for a similar spec Keysight.

Issue is a similar spec Keysight is 4x as much  >:(
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on March 31, 2021, 12:45:17 pm
Hi! since i've had this oscilloscope, it ocasionally reboots itself seemingly at random.

That's a defect, never seen a reset with mine since it was bought many years ago.  I managed in the past to make it freeze by sending wrong SCPI commands, but long ago, not with the latest few firmwares.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Anthocyanina on March 31, 2021, 01:01:09 pm
Sounds like a crash and watchdog reboot. Possibly RAM/CPU issue.
Also could be a brownout detection and reset by power monitor because of some of the power buses having sags or increased ripple, or some other combination of problems on power buses. What sucks is that you need a scope to troubleshoot that ....
You could use a multimeter to check the power supply voltages inside the 'scope to make sure they're OK.


Thank you all! i guess i'll have to try fungus' suggestion first, wonder if it's actually a power supply thing and i'll catch it with the multimeter, that would be great, i mean, it would be better if it stopped rebooting itself, but figuring out why it does sounds like the next best thing!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Anthocyanina on March 31, 2021, 01:04:01 pm
This sort of stuff is why I’d rather pay 2x as much for a similar spec Keysight.

Issue is a similar spec Keysight is 4x as much  >:(

i just had to pay shipping for this one, so i'm still quite happy with it for the price, even after having dhl break the case. i wonder if this problem may have also be caused by them throwing it around during shipping :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 31, 2021, 01:24:18 pm
This sort of stuff is why I’d rather pay 2x as much for a similar spec Keysight.

What are you on about? This is obviously a 'scope with a problem.

Nobody else's 'scope is resetting like this, hence the suggestion to check the power supply.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 31, 2021, 01:46:41 pm
This sort of stuff is why I’d rather pay 2x as much for a similar spec Keysight.

Issue is a similar spec Keysight is 4x as much  >:(

This scope was physically damaged (it was received with back cover broken. And that plastic is quite good quality and sturdy..).
It has nothing to do with quality and reliability of little Z machine which is very good.
DS1000Z has it's limitations, that are by design and driven with price. But quality is actually formidable.

OTOH, you did mention something I wholeheartedly agree with:  If Keysight was 20-30% more expensive than Rigols of this world with the same specs, most would simply buy big brand.
But they think brand is worth 4x the price. It isn't. It is worth some percentage, but not 4 times more...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on March 31, 2021, 02:26:02 pm
Ok if it's been bashed around then yeah that's fair enough. I retract my comment :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on March 31, 2021, 03:55:41 pm
This sort of stuff is why I’d rather pay 2x as much for a similar spec Keysight.

This is the sort of stuff you read here for the first time after the scope has been in the market for at least 7 years, and has probably sold more units than Keysight ever will of any model in their lineup.

While I appreciate that it's bad luck for the owner of that particular scope, it is not going to influence my buying decision when it comes to the next piece of test equipment I might need.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on March 31, 2021, 04:02:29 pm
Of course. My comment was a slight stab at Keysight’s pricing more than anything.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Anthocyanina on April 03, 2021, 02:11:00 am
well, i've had it on for many hours, i was thinking if i had the multimeter connected to on of the power supply outputs while it rebooted itself and it showed no change, then i would just connect it to another output and repeat, but it just won't reboot itself now for more than 8 hours! i wonder if this error would be the kind that gets worse over time or if i shold just not worry about it and deal with the ocasional reboot?  :-// :scared:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on April 03, 2021, 07:04:37 am
I had a couple of spontaneous reboots when I had a DS1054Z so perhaps it’s semi normal crashing (crappy software triggering the WDT). If it’s doing it constantly though I’d be suspicious.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on April 03, 2021, 10:09:27 am
Considering the DS1000Z contians the same application processor (Freescale IMX283) as the DP800 series of PSUs (which is notorious for rebooting unexpectedly), maybe the reason is identical as well. So it may be worth reading on @T2's findings (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dp832-random-reboots/msg2947086/#msg2947086) and his suggested cure for the problem. Just an educated guess on my behalf, though. My DS1000Z never crashed without interaction, and even with me fiddling with the knobs, it only did so with rather early F/W revisions  :D.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 03, 2021, 10:29:29 am
I had a couple of spontaneous reboots when I had a DS1054Z so perhaps it’s semi normal crashing (crappy software triggering the WDT). If it’s doing it constantly though I’d be suspicious.

Weird that nobody else's DS1054Z is rebooting from that exact same software, don't you think?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on April 03, 2021, 11:02:58 am
I had a couple of spontaneous reboots when I had a DS1054Z so perhaps it’s semi normal crashing (crappy software triggering the WDT). If it’s doing it constantly though I’d be suspicious.

Weird that nobody else's DS1054Z is rebooting from that exact same software, don't you think?


That's a pretty poor statement to make really and a terrible terrible thing I hear a lot of the time from engineers. "it's only you who has the problem". At the same time, they're saying that to 100 people or aren't communicating between their account managers or support personnel properly.

If you consider the following which is usually the case from the last 20 odd years working on software and embedded systems...

1. Lets propose 100% of devices crash occasionally.
2. 10% of people report that, which is a realistic figure.
3. 10% of those people actually bother to respond to the ticket they opened.
4. 10% of those people actually help the manufacturer through debugging.

Say you sell 10,000 scopes, it looks like 0.1% of your userbase is crashing to the engineers. Most people say "fuck it" and power cycle it.

If you have a problem with 20% of your product base crashing, then that rounds down to very little data other than usually one pissed off and fuming customer who will tear you a new asshole the moment you say "weird that nobody else's DS1054Z is rebooting from that exact same software, don't you think?

Incidentally my DS1054Z issue was resolved by updating it in the end so clearly they managed to finally get that info together...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on April 03, 2021, 11:06:09 am
1. Lets propose 100% of devices crash occasionally.
2. 10% of people report that, which is a realistic figure.

This thread alone has 4500 posts. How many of them report on spontaneous crashes of the DS1000Z?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on April 03, 2021, 11:08:01 am
1. Lets propose 100% of devices crash occasionally.
2. 10% of people report that, which is a realistic figure.

This thread alone has 4500 posts. How many of them report on spontaneous crashes of the DS1000Z?

This thread isn't the only place on the internet...

https://www.jackenhack.com/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-hangs-boot/ (https://www.jackenhack.com/rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope-hangs-boot/)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/)

etc etc. And let's not forget the bugs thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on April 03, 2021, 11:20:49 am
If you have a problem with 20% of your product base crashing, then that rounds down to very little data other than usually one pissed off and fuming customer who will tear you a new asshole the moment you say "weird that nobody else's DS1054Z is rebooting from that exact same software, don't you think?

I didn't say that to him, I told him to check the power rails.

I said that to you, because you're trying to imply that constant rebooting is normal in DS1054Zs. It isn't.

This is a 'scope that's suffered serious physical abuse. Let's start with that, shall we?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on April 03, 2021, 11:32:09 am
I’m merely stating that it may not be abnormal as it is portrayed and that it needs to be considered as a separate issue unless a causal relationship is found. There’s a distinct difference between causality and correlation and that is the difference between those who successfully debug something and think they have successfully debugged it. There are a lot more people in the latter category.

And yes I know you were replying to me and no I disagree about the rebooting situation having experienced it myself.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: De_Os on July 13, 2021, 07:21:23 pm
Hello dears.
Please forgive me for my English, let me ask you one question.
There is RIGOL DS1054Z with the latest firmware 00.04.04.SP4 (00.04.04.04.03), unlocked to DS1104Z (hacked only the bandwidth of 100 MHz, the other options were already unlocked by the vendor).
The question - is it normal for this device that only channel #1 (yellow) is a full-fledged channel with a declared sampling rate of 1 GSa/s and a maximum memory of 24 M, and each of channels #2, #3 and #4 are trimmed to 500 MSa/s and 12 M?
(Of course, when using any 2 channels at the same time - 500 MSa/s and 12 M, when using 3 or 4 of any channels at the same time - 250 MSa/s and 6 M. Everything is as stated in the characteristics).
That is, when working in single-channel mode, channels #2, #3 and #4 will not be able to fully replace channel #1. In the characteristics of the device, this was tactfully kept silent.
What is this - a feature of this model or a marriage of my particular copy?
Thank you.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on July 13, 2021, 07:47:42 pm
If you still trigger the scope on CH1, this channel has to be active in the background and thus reduces the bandwidth of the other channels, even if it's apparently disabled.

Set trigger source to CH2 and disable all other channels, then CH2 will run at 1GSa/s and has the full memory available.


...and by the way: Welcome to the forum!  :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: De_Os on July 13, 2021, 10:32:39 pm
Ha-ha, the problem turns out to be my ignorance!  :-DD
Oh, if all the problems in life would be solved just as simply...
Thank you Turbotom, I fell in love with my DS1054Z again!  :D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on July 14, 2021, 10:24:25 pm
I also have a rigol ds1054z, I advise you not to fall in love with the 24 mbits of memory depth, since it has some errors when changing the time scale, rigol never solved that error, when I sent an email with images of that error to me They answered that the last patch solved it, which is not the case.

in spanish
Yo tambien poseo un rigol ds1054z, te aconsejo que no te enamores de los 24 mbits de profundidad de memoria, ya que posee unos errores al cambiar la escala de tiempo, rigol nunca soluciono ese error, cuando envie un mail con imagenes de ese error me contestaron que lo solucinaba el ultimo parche, lo que no es asi.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: idolclub on July 14, 2021, 11:02:08 pm
New DS1054Z firmware v00.04.05.01.00 ~ 2021/06/30

Only available in Rigol China website.


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on July 15, 2021, 01:15:29 am
ok, I'm going to download it and test it, has anyone tried it?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 15, 2021, 05:05:17 am
From the changes log, with Google translate:
Quote
[Support product model] All MSO/DS1000Z series oscilloscopes
【Latest revision time】 2021/06/01


[Contents of this update]
v00.04.05.01.00 2021/06/01
      -Modify the vertical display

[History version description]
v00.04.05.00.00 2020/12/29
      -Add and modify some measurement functions
      -Math problem modification
      -Modify some SCPI command errors
      -Trigger problem fix

v00.04.04.04.03 2019/05/30
      -Solve the problem of waveform display error during playback

v00.04.04.04.02 2019/02/26

      -Update encoder driver

v00.04.04.03.05 2018/04/28

      -Solve LXI-Web login failure
      -The average value of the DC signal is measured incorrectly
      -In some cases, the machine starts abnormally
      -Information display related issues

Mine is now 00.04.04.SP4.

Just curious, anybody knows what exactly was changed about these:
      -Modify the vertical display
      -Add and modify some measurement functions
      -Math problem modification
      -Modify some SCPI command errors
      -Trigger problem fix
?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 15, 2021, 08:30:53 am
Did the upgrade, then recalibrate.  The previous version was
00.04.04.SP3, now it's
00.04.05.SP1

Couldn't identify any visible changes in the math or measurement functions.

Still works just like before the upgrade, won't bother trying to downgrade it back, but the traces seems thicker to me, and brighter, much brighter.  It's a sunny summer day outside but still had to dial down the intensity.   :-//

Anybody else seeing thicker and brighter traces with the latest firmware?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: klausES on July 15, 2021, 08:57:44 am
Sometimes the traces are wider (then you also have a brighter). Possibly already by a influence of noise.
Either it becomes less or only after a restart, or when the device warms up, or changing the position of the probes (cable).

Are you really only the traces brighter or anything but also a little the writing, the symbols and frames around fields ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 15, 2021, 10:09:16 am
Not sure yet, but I'll look for some older screen captures from former projects, redo the same settings and capture the same waveforms again, to compare the old and new captures on the PC.  Probably not gonna do this today, but if I'll do it sometimes in the weekend, I'll post here the results, either the same or not the same.

So far I've tested the jitter/phase noise (because the change log is mentioning something about "trigger problem fix").
- jitter/phase noise seems about the same, maybe smaller than I measured a couple of years ago  :-+
- I see some strange trace wiggling on the smallest time base and strong clean signal, when I synchronize from the signal generator  :--

I don't recall seeing that before.  Again, need to find some old screen captures made in similar conditions for a fair comparison.  Not sure if I have any, but the wiggling around the trigger point goes away when the sampling rate goes to 1GSa/s (by disabling all channels except the first)

By wiggling I mean the trace thickens and widens before and after the trigger point, in an X shape.  Need to measure more careful and find some older captures before calling that a bug.  Will add some screen captures later.

I'm not sure if the upgrade was justified for me, because it was working just fine before the upgrade, but now I'm not so sure and need to spend time for extra checking to decide if it's just an illusion or it really is worst than before.   :-\
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 15, 2021, 11:45:01 am
the traces seems thicker to me, and brighter, much brighter.  It's a sunny summer day outside but still had to dial down the intensity.   :-//

Anybody else seeing thicker and brighter traces with the latest firmware?

I don't see how. RGB values were already at 100%.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 15, 2021, 01:49:25 pm
Then what it is for the default 60% value of the Display -> Intensity setting?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on July 15, 2021, 09:56:34 pm
v00.04.05.00.00 2020/12/29
      -Add and modify some measurement functions
      -Math problem modification
      -Modify some SCPI command errors
      -Trigger problem fix


Was this version available for download?

I noticed a new Rigol logo (blue) on the DS1054Z in De-Os his post.
Can it be that besides a cosmetic change also the hardware has been changed?

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Miti on July 16, 2021, 01:32:55 am
Not sure yet, but I'll look for some older screen captures from former projects, redo the same settings and capture the same waveforms again, to compare the old and new captures on the PC.  Probably not gonna do this today, but if I'll do it sometimes in the weekend, I'll post here the results, either the same or not the same.

So far I've tested the jitter/phase noise (because the change log is mentioning something about "trigger problem fix").
- jitter/phase noise seems about the same, maybe smaller than I measured a couple of years ago  :-+
- I see some strange trace wiggling on the smallest time base and strong clean signal, when I synchronize from the signal generator  :--

I don't recall seeing that before.  Again, need to find some old screen captures made in similar conditions for a fair comparison.  Not sure if I have any, but the wiggling around the trigger point goes away when the sampling rate goes to 1GSa/s (by disabling all channels except the first)

By wiggling I mean the trace thickens and widens before and after the trigger point, in an X shape.  Need to measure more careful and find some older captures before calling that a bug.  Will add some screen captures later.

I'm not sure if the upgrade was justified for me, because it was working just fine before the upgrade, but now I'm not so sure and need to spend time for extra checking to decide if it's just an illusion or it really is worst than before.   :-\

Hey George,

I can duplicate your tests to compare on the weekend. I have a FeelTech 6600-60M, an IFR2025 and a Wavetek 171 as signal generators. My DS1054 SW Ver. is 04.04.04.03.
I'm very curious if they fixed the waveform corruption when scrolling left and right. They said it was fixed with the SW I mentioned before, but that's a lie.

Miti
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: klausES on July 16, 2021, 09:52:57 am
...I noticed a new Rigol logo (blue) on the DS1054Z in De-Os his post...

In fact, blue. I did not notice at all.

A change in the hardware is always possible in ongoing production.
At my, there was already a new changed Rotary Encoder Board.
But it only affects the layout and the types of Rotary Encoder itself.

However, I can imagine the Rigol changes absolutely avoid the two firmware would need.

What is irritated by the offered 00.04.05.sp1 on the China site, which is smaller the file size by almost a third.
Cumulative firmware was not known to me in this model so far.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on July 16, 2021, 02:54:59 pm
It won't allow me to reinstall an older firmware, is there a way to do it? :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 16, 2021, 03:40:52 pm
It won't allow me to reinstall an older firmware, is there a way to do it? :-//

No.

(Well, yes, but it's not the answer you want to hear: You need to unpack the old firmware, change the version number to be "newer" than the current, repack it, sign it, cross your fingers... )
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on July 16, 2021, 11:01:39 pm
It won't allow me to reinstall an older firmware, is there a way to do it? :-//

Try this:
Quote
To downgrade do the following:
-Copy the .GEL file with the firmware version you want to a USB stick that you know is compatible with the DS1000Z series.
-With the scope powered OFF plug the USB stick into the scope.
-Power the scope on.
-When the splash screen with “Rigol” appears you should hear a quick beep which indicates it sees a USB device.
-As soon as you hear the beep press the “Help” button 3 times quickly.
-In a few seconds you should see the channel 1 LED blinking - this indicates it is flashing the firmware.
-Once done flashing the scope will boot as normal and tell you it found a firmware update with the same version it just flashed, you can press cancel.
-You can then verify the new detailed version info by pressing “menu menu force menu” quickly, then pressing “utility”,“system”, “system info”.
-I'd reboot at this point before using the scope just for good measure.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on July 16, 2021, 11:10:46 pm
It won't allow me to reinstall an older firmware, is there a way to do it? :-//

Here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsxxxx-gel-firmware-file-format/msg1479419/#msg1479419). Needs some homework.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on July 16, 2021, 11:55:58 pm
Thanks Hammy, I'm going to test your method, and if I won't stick with this firmware, until they release another
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 17, 2021, 07:50:44 am
Try this:
Quote
To downgrade do the following:
-Copy the .GEL file with the firmware version you want to a USB stick that you know is compatible with the DS1000Z series.
[...]

You gave only an excerpt from the first post of an earlier thread on this forum. But the subsequent discussion in that thread indicates that this downgrading method only works with very early bootloaders: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade-*is*-possible-and-here-is-how/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade-*is*-possible-and-here-is-how/)

So unless Adrian's scope is a very early version, I don't think this will work for him.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on July 17, 2021, 11:17:27 am
You gave only an excerpt from the first post of an earlier thread on this forum. But the subsequent discussion in that thread indicates that this downgrading method only works with very early bootloaders: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade-*is*-possible-and-here-is-how/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-firmware-downgrade-*is*-possible-and-here-is-how/)

So unless Adrian's scope is a very early version, I don't think this will work for him.

What a bummer!  :-BROKE
I missed that. Thank you for the clarification.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on July 17, 2021, 01:02:41 pm
It did not work for me for the boot version 0.0.1.4, well this version is not that serious either  ::), can I solve the problem of the capture in 24Mbit deep? :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on July 18, 2021, 03:09:52 pm
Did the upgrade, then recalibrate.  The previous version was
00.04.04.SP3, now it's
00.04.05.SP1

Couldn't identify any visible changes in the math or measurement functions.

Still works just like before the upgrade, won't bother trying to downgrade it back, but the traces seems thicker to me, and brighter, much brighter.  It's a sunny summer day outside but still had to dial down the intensity.   :-//

Anybody else seeing thicker and brighter traces with the latest firmware?

I see thicker lines, but not brighter like this.

in spanish
Yo veo trazos mas gruesos, pero no asi mas brillantes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on July 18, 2021, 07:54:57 pm
Is there any good list of what the benefits, feature additions, and feature removals / breaking changes have come with the various
specific firmware revisions, bootloader revisions, hardware revisions, et. al.?

I've got a fairly old model which is running whatever its original firmware / bootloader was and I'm sure there may have been some beneficial
changes but I've heard about things getting broken / worse / limited, too, by firmware "upgrades".

So I'm in a similar position as others have commented here lately: So FW vx.y is available along with many others -- the question : SHOULD (and can) I upgrade, and to which version, and why / at what cost & risk?

I bought my DS1074Z back in 2014 and never had any problems upgrading the firmware.  I'm currently running 00.04.04.04.03
The most important upgrade that I can think of is the phase-lock-loop tuning to fix the jitter problem.
Dave did a couple videos on it.

I have never upgraded the bootloader.

Download the 00.04.04.04.03 release (https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/), unzip it onto a thumb drive that you know works with the scope and install. 
The zip file also has the install instructions and release notes. 
This version has been out for a long time and there doesn't appear to be any reasons not to install it.

Then you can decide if you want the new version.  (Personally, I'm going to wait until it hits the north america site.) 
As you have probably read, it is next to impossible to revert to an earlier version.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bayati on July 18, 2021, 08:01:34 pm
@evb149
Just upgrade to this version and you'll be fine:
https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/ (https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/)

It's so unlikly that you brake your DS by just upgrading it. If you did, that's just bad luck.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on July 18, 2021, 11:34:52 pm
I've heard about things getting broken / worse / limited, too, by firmware "upgrades".

Where did you hear that? It's not true.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 19, 2021, 12:04:57 pm
This is what I'm seeing.  I don't recall it to be like that before update.  Not that it is brighter/thicker, but also the intensity flickers randomly.

There are huge sinx/x artifacts when the signal is very fast.
Sync is on the magenta (Ch3).
All trace intensity is flickering randomly, like in the animated gif attached.  Display and acquaire are set to normal.
There seems to be always more than one trace on the screen, even when persistence is set to minimum, as seen in the capture.  I guess that's why I perceived the traces as brighter, IDK.

- Yellow is from the generator output, probe 10x, no terminators, 20 MHz, square wave, 50%, 0 to 3V
- Magenta is the high speed sync output from the signal generator (also 20 MHz, but TTL output with a 50 ohms cable and 50 ohms pass-through terminator near the oscilloscope input)
- Blue dark and light (Ch2 and Ch4) inputs have no probes/cables attached




Questions:
0.  Is anybody else seeing the same, or is it something wrong with my hardware?

1.  How can I downgrade to the previous firmware, please?  Is there any way without unpacking, fake an old version as being newer than 00.04.05.01, then repacking all back.  If not, is there any step by step example of how to do the modification

2.  Why, and where from is this fashion of blocking a downgrade?  What's the technical reason of not letting one to use whatever version one wants?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 19, 2021, 12:19:50 pm
Sorry, I only get a static .GIF displayed. Is it really animated?

Looking at the static screenshots, this looks normal to me -- provided that your signal generator actually exhibits the jitter which the scope displays. Having more than one trace even at minimum persistence time is normal, I think. My DS1054Z does that too, with the 00.04.04 SP4 firmware.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 19, 2021, 12:28:05 pm
Seems like EEVblog turns animated GIFs into static GIF.  This one is saved externally, I hope it will show animated (and it is animated in my Firefox browser).  Here the animation is constant lighter/darker alternations, but in reality it is flickering between the two intensity levels like a candle.

(https://cdn.hackaday.io/images/original/4036141626697412778.gif)

Also note how the jitter of the magenta signal is much larger than the jitter of the yellow edges.  Since the two signals are synchronous, I'll say the jitter is in fact caused by numerical artifacts of sinx/x, maybe bad sync detection, too.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on July 19, 2021, 12:49:10 pm
Try this:
Quote
To downgrade do the following:
-Copy the .GEL file with the firmware version you want to a USB stick that you know is compatible with the DS1000Z series.
-With the scope powered OFF plug the USB stick into the scope.
-Power the scope on.
-When the splash screen with “Rigol” appears you should hear a quick beep which indicates it sees a USB device.
-As soon as you hear the beep press the “Help” button 3 times quickly.
-In a few seconds you should see the channel 1 LED blinking - this indicates it is flashing the firmware.
-Once done flashing the scope will boot as normal and tell you it found a firmware update with the same version it just flashed, you can press cancel.
-You can then verify the new detailed version info by pressing “menu menu force menu” quickly, then pressing “utility”,“system”, “system info”.
-I'd reboot at this point before using the scope just for good measure.
[/quote]

After trying 1000 times I do not know what happened, today the first attempt it worked, I tried with almost all the firmware versions and it did not work, until a revision that corrects the problem of the 24 Mbit of depth and the measurement does not come out, I do not return to install . :scared: :scared:

(https://i.ibb.co/vxy3X3h/DS1-Z-Quick-Print1.png) (https://ibb.co/27VvZvS)

in spanish
Despues de intentarlo 1000 veces no se que paso, hoy al primer intento funciono, probe con casi todas las versiones de firmware y no funcionaba, hasta que no salga un revision que corrija el problema de los 24 Mbit de profundidad y la medicion, no vuelvo una instalación
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 19, 2021, 01:03:58 pm
Yes, now the animated GIF works for me too. Thanks for fixing that.

Hmm, that flicker looks disconcerting indeed. Any chance that some unusual trigger condition or trigger delay is active? Although I am not quite sure how that would cause this effect.

Regarding the jitter: Since the yellow trace is phase-shifted vs. the magenta one by approx. 90°, I would expect the yellow trace to show half the jitter amplitude of the magenta one, when comparing the yellow rising & falling edges directly to the left and right from the trigger time with the jitter on the magenta falling edge which follows the trigger. That seems to be the case. For the edges further away from the trigger time, the yellow jitter should be reduced accordingly. To the far left of the screen, that relationship does indeed not seem to hold up, but otherwise it might be OK?  So I am not sure whether this is indeed an artefact of the scope.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 19, 2021, 01:19:28 pm
The generator frequency/jitter is rock-solid.  If it were to be that bad it would be unusable.  Also, I would have seen it as a wide spectrum, in the jitter test (where I output a spike at each 1 second to test the stability of the two instrument's PLL/oscillator, etc.)

Even more, with a single signal at Ch1 all the other channels without cables, Ch1 has 50 ohms cable with 50 ohms pass through terminator at the oscilloscope side i see this:
- only CH1 enabled, brighter trace but relatively OK, no visible jitter
- Ch1 + Ch2 enabled, even thicker trace for CH1, almost no jitter
- Ch1 + Ch2 + Ch3, even more noise, visible sinx/x artifacts and visible edge jitter, but almost no visible flicker yet
- Ch1 + Ch2 + Ch3 + Ch4 enabled, horrible artifacts, jitter and flickering   :horse:

I'll try to revert, at first using the above procedure without editing the FW version, thank you all for posting that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 19, 2021, 02:13:27 pm
Try this:
Quote
To downgrade do the following:
-Copy the .GEL file with the firmware version you want to a USB stick that you know is compatible with the DS1000Z series.
-With the scope powered OFF plug the USB stick into the scope.
-Power the scope on.
-When the splash screen with “Rigol” appears you should hear a quick beep which indicates it sees a USB device.
-As soon as you hear the beep press the “Help” button 3 times quickly.
-In a few seconds you should see the channel 1 LED blinking - this indicates it is flashing the firmware.
-Once done flashing the scope will boot as normal and tell you it found a firmware update with the same version it just flashed, you can press cancel.
-You can then verify the new detailed version info by pressing “menu menu force menu” quickly, then pressing “utility”,“system”, “system info”.
-I'd reboot at this point before using the scope just for good measure.

After trying 1000 times I do not know what happened, today the first attempt it worked, I tried with almost all the firmware versions and it did not work, until a revision that corrects the problem of the 24 Mbit of depth and the measurement does not come out, I do not return to install . :scared: :scared:

(https://i.ibb.co/vxy3X3h/DS1-Z-Quick-Print1.png) (https://ibb.co/27VvZvS)

in spanish
Despues de intentarlo 1000 veces no se que paso, hoy al primer intento funciono, probe con casi todas las versiones de firmware y no funcionaba, hasta que no salga un revision que corrija el problema de los 24 Mbit de profundidad y la medicion, no vuelvo una instalación

Are you sure that's the correct picture attached?

I am asking because I noticed my startup counter was reset by the latest firmware 00.04.05.01.00, while your picture after downgrade shows 1242 power up cycles, which is strange.
"StartUp Cnter: 1242".

Maybe the old value wasn't overwritten by 00.04.05.01.00, or maybe that's the wrong picture? :-// 
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on July 19, 2021, 02:32:57 pm
If it is correct, I captured it when I saw that the firmware had been reversed, and I am not going to try again to get the counter reversed. I leave it for the daredevils. :-DD :-DD
The truth is, do not pay attention to that, I did not like the change in the signal traces that became thick and I did not see that the synchronization error has been solved  ::)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Anthocyanina on July 19, 2021, 05:13:09 pm
I bought my DS1074Z back in 2014 and never had any problems upgrading the firmware.  I'm currently running 00.04.04.04.03
The most important upgrade that I can think of is the phase-lock-loop tuning to fix the jitter problem.
Dave did a couple videos on it.

I have never upgraded the bootloader.

Download the 00.04.04.04.03 release (https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/), unzip it onto a thumb drive that you know works with the scope and install. 
The zip file also has the install instructions and release notes. 
This version has been out for a long time and there doesn't appear to be any reasons not to install it.

Then you can decide if you want the new version.  (Personally, I'm going to wait until it hits the north america site.) 
As you have probably read, it is next to impossible to revert to an earlier version.
Hi! I see your system info shows boot, firmware, CPLD, Build date, and startup counter. Is there a way to enable that information? or is that linked to the model? in mine i can only see manufacturer, model, SN, software version and board version. My software version says 00.04.04.SP4 I installed that version a few months ago, this year, when it was the latest version available. My board version is also 0.1.1 so i think it's not a hardware thing that i can't see the other information? Thank you!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 19, 2021, 05:28:08 pm
I see your system info shows boot, firmware, CPLD, Build date, and startup counter. Is there a way to enable that information?

Yes, as written above:
- quickly press buttons MENU -> MENU -> FORCE -> MENU on "TRIGGER" buttons group
- then go to info panel by pressing buttons UTILITY -> SYSTEM -> SYSTEM INFO in the "MENU" buttons group
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Anthocyanina on July 19, 2021, 05:37:58 pm
I see your system info shows boot, firmware, CPLD, Build date, and startup counter. Is there a way to enable that information?

Yes, as written above:
- quickly press buttons MENU -> MENU -> FORCE -> MENU on "TRIGGER" buttons group
- then go to info panel by pressing buttons UTILITY -> SYSTEM -> SYSTEM INFO in the "MENU" buttons group

Thank you very much! Could you please link the post where they mention that? I've read pretty much the entire thread but i think i've missed it  :palm: Thanks again!  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 19, 2021, 05:52:06 pm
All of them, the 185 x 25 posts each?!?   :D

Try this:
Quote
To downgrade do the following:
-Copy the .GEL file with the firmware version you want to a USB stick that you know is compatible with the DS1000Z series.
-With the scope powered OFF plug the USB stick into the scope.
-Power the scope on.
-When the splash screen with “Rigol” appears you should hear a quick beep which indicates it sees a USB device.
-As soon as you hear the beep press the “Help” button 3 times quickly.
-In a few seconds you should see the channel 1 LED blinking - this indicates it is flashing the firmware.
-Once done flashing the scope will boot as normal and tell you it found a firmware update with the same version it just flashed, you can press cancel.
-You can then verify the new detailed version info by pressing “menu menu force menu” quickly, then pressing “utility”,“system”, “system info”.
-I'd reboot at this point before using the scope just for good measure.

After trying 1000 times I do not know what happened, today the first attempt it worked, I tried with almost all the firmware versions and it did not work, until a revision that corrects the problem of the 24 Mbit of depth and the measurement does not come out, I do not return to install . :scared: :scared:
...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Anthocyanina on July 19, 2021, 06:00:34 pm
All of them, the 185 x 25 posts each?!?   :D

not all the posts i'm sure  :P  and of course one of the ones i skipped (because it started with downgrade instructions and i have no intention to do that  :palm:) is the one which has that information!  :scared: Thank you!  ;D  :palm:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on July 19, 2021, 07:01:33 pm
Thank you very much! Could you please link the post where they mention that? I've read pretty much the entire thread but i think i've missed it  :palm: Thanks again!  :)

You must have overlooked this glaringly obvious post from 2016:  ;)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg923437/#msg923437 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg923437/#msg923437)

I am sure it shows up a few more times in this and other threads.
Important extra info: The MENU-MENU-FORCE-MENU sequence must be pushed quickly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 24, 2021, 02:13:00 pm
Well, in the end it turned out the latest firmware v00.04.05.01.00 (AKA Software Version 00.04.05.SP1) is just fine.   :-//

I guess it was just me, and the weather   ;D
(it was after many rainy days, with more than 30*C and humidity more than 60%)

This is the jitter (between both the generator and the oscilloscope clocks) seen at 1 second after the triggering point, for a signal of a 50MHz square wave, but the signal is gated by the generator, so only a single period (of the 50MHz train) is allowed to go out each second:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1239020;image)

Not bad at all after 180 triggers (3 minutes).




Anyways, found an easy way to downgrade the firmware to the previous v04.04.04.03 I use to have before, so I downgraded and do the same tests last night.

It turned out that:
- the "jittery" trace is the same, in both the new and the old FW
- the flickering does not happen any more (last night was not so hot and humid, only 28*C and ~40%RH), there still is a very rare flickering, but it happens about the same in the old FW, too, both old and new flicker appears only when all 4 channels are on, and only when the Mem Depth is forced to 3K, and apparently at high temp/humidity, so a very corner case
- the address of the "StartupCnter" has changed between the old and the new FW.  After I downgraded the startup counter was showing some 17 millions starts.  ;D

- the best part, now I have an easy way to go back and forth between firmware versions (so to downgrade eventually  :phew:  ), without altering the original .GEL firmware files.   :-+ 

This is none of my merits, I've just applied the konnor piece of code shown in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-firmware-patch-plugins/msg1473517/#msg1473517 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-firmware-patch-plugins/msg1473517/#msg1473517) and made a "Rigol sign disk".  Thank you very much to konnor and everybody else who contributed in finding that method.




When a "Rigol sign disk" is inserted, some extra service menus will become visible:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1239018;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=1239016;image)

Some service buttons pressing combinations, too, many of which might brick the oscilloscope if operated wrongly.  Also, if an older firmware is copied on such a disk, the older firmware will be accepted to "downgrade" the oscilloscope.

I didn't use any of the extra menus (don't want to accidentally brick my oscilloscope), so only used the "Rigol sign disk" to downgrade from v04.05.01.00 to v04.04.04.03 and the downgrade just worked.  Then I repeated my test with the old version, then noticed the results are the same, so then I upgraded again to the latest v04.05.01.00 firmware, which I plan to keep until the next firmware release from Rigol.

konnor only gave an excerpt of code, because there is a danger to brick the oscilloscope while the "Rigol sign disk" is inserted (if one does stupid things with it).  Though, this took me a lot of time to figure out how to use that code excerpt and prepare a "Rigol sign disk" from it.  This is different from the Rigol key-disk attached in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/need-help-hacking-dp832-for-multicolour-option/msg2475702/#msg2475702 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/need-help-hacking-dp832-for-multicolour-option/msg2475702/#msg2475702) That key-disk.zip didn't work for me to downgrade the oscilloscope, but it worked just fine to change the model of a Rigol DP800 power supply.   :-//




Maybe it should be a separate topic to detail the steps for those who will prefer to prepare their own disk with Linux, though for now I'll just attach the "Rigol sign disk" prepared for myself.  Worked for me to make a firmware downgrade.  The disk is labeled "BRICK" as a reminder.  It's only your responsibility to not brick your oscilloscope, don't blame others.

I have no idea how to recover a bricked oscilloscope, so just don't use the "Rigol sign disk" if you are not sure how to use that "Rigol sign disk".

To deploy the "Rigol sign disk", find a USB known to work for firmware upgrades and dd it with the content of the zip file.  Everything else on that USB will be lost.  The format type of the USB disk doesn't matter, because the dd starts from sector 0 and contains the partition table, too.
Code: [Select]
# identify your USB drive, mine was /dev/sde
lsblk

# cd to the directory where the Rigol sign disk was unpacked, then dd it to /dev/sde
sudo dd if=card_FAT32_w_SIGN_manually_added_103E00 of=/dev/sde

# ignore any dd warnings/errors caused by any disk size mismatch
#     but force a physical write on the USB before ejecting/unmounting/unplugging it
sync

# now plug the USB disk again into PC, copy any DS1000ZUpdate.GEL firmware
#     then unplug from the PC and plug the USB disk into oscilloscope
#     the oscilloscope should detect the USB disk and the firmware,
#     and pop a message asking if OK/Cancel to upgrade
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Miti on July 24, 2021, 04:33:48 pm
For the Windows guys, I can confirm that the key disk can be created using Win32DiskImager and RoGeorge's file. I can upgrade and downgrade as I want. However, I don't get the extra menus. Do I have to press any buttons or it just shows up at drive insertion?

Thanks RoGeorge!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on July 24, 2021, 04:45:16 pm
RoGeorge, probaste si se corrigio el problema dela sincronización con capturas a 24 megabits, porque en mis pruebas no!
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/517690/rigol-ds1074-oscilloscope-shows-very-wrong-timing
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 24, 2021, 06:26:33 pm
RoGeorge, probaste si se corrigio el problema dela sincronización con capturas a 24 megabits, porque en mis pruebas no!
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/517690/rigol-ds1074-oscilloscope-shows-very-wrong-timing

Please use English only on this forum.

Yes, the timing is still incorrect at 500ms/div and 24Mpts with the latest FW v00.04.05.01.00 (Software Version 00.04.05.SP1).

The attached capture is a 1Hz square wave signal, therefore the trace should be perfectly aligned with the oscilloscope's grid, yet the first and last falling edges visible in the screen are visibly misaligned from the grid.  Cursor and measurements both measure the square wave length as 1040ms instead of 1000ms.

It appears like the signal would have 0.96Hz, yet the generator is generating 1.00Hz precisely.  Same signal on a different timebase (for example at 1s/div or at 200ms/div) measures correctly, precisely 1000ms.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on July 24, 2021, 06:44:42 pm
For the Windows guys, I can confirm that the key disk can be created using Win32DiskImager and RoGeorge's file. I can upgrade and downgrade as I want. However, I don't get the extra menus. Do I have to press any buttons or it just shows up at drive insertion?

Thanks RoGeorge!

The service menus are reachable only while the the USB drive with 'Rigol sign disk' is inserted.  You need to navigate to those service menus by pressing buttons.  For Example:

- press 'Storage' -> 'DiskManage' and you should see an extra disk called "Local SYS".  Rotate the "Intensity" knob to select the SYS disk, then press the 'Intensity' knob to see the file names.  "Local SYS" disk and files are not visible without a plugged USB with "Rigol sign disk".

- press 'Utility' -> 'Down arrow to move the dot to the second Utilities page" -> "TestModel", and it will show some service menus.  "TestModel" menu is not visible without a plugged USB with "Rigol sign disk".
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Miti on July 24, 2021, 07:03:38 pm
The service menus are reachable only while the the USB drive with 'Rigol sign disk' is inserted.  You need to navigate to those service menus by pressing buttons.  For Example:

- press 'Storage' -> 'DiskManage' and you should see an extra disk called "Local SYS".  Rotate the "Intensity" knob to select the SYS disk, then press the 'Intensity' knob to see the file names.  "Local SYS" disk and files are not visible without a plugged USB with "Rigol sign disk".

- press 'Utility' -> 'Down arrow to move the dot to the second Utilities page" -> "TestModel", and it will show some service menus.  "TestModel" menu is not visible without a plugged USB with "Rigol sign disk".

Yes, I've got the menus. Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Dezmond2 on September 08, 2021, 10:15:34 pm
Always active persistence in Rigol DSOs does not cause problems / inconveniences? He don't have option to disable this?  :-//
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2021, 03:26:49 am
Always active persistence in Rigol DSOs does not cause problems / inconveniences?

No.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: neik on September 17, 2021, 01:58:53 pm
Hey guys,
I'm trying to control my DS1054Z in MATLAB using its IVI drivers. Unfortunately I am able to acquire 1200 points at the most. When invoking IviScope_ConfigureAcquisitionRecord with a larger value for MinNumPts "Invalid Input" is dispalyed on the oscilloscope's screen and the waveform acquisition won't start, returning a "Not a valid configuration" error in MATLAB.
It's my understanding that 1200 is the number of points displayed on the oscilloscope screen, and that's all I'm getting from the oscilloscope with my code. Does anyone know if it's possible to acquire from the oscilloscope memory by using IVI drivers? Or it is only possibile by using SCPI command / specific drivers?
My script for convenience:

Code: [Select]
scope = icdevice('rigol_IVI.mdd', 'Rigol')
connect(scope)


%%%% Channel 1 %%%%

Range = 1;
Offset = 0.0;
Coupling = 0;
Enabled = true;
Probe_attenuation = 1;
invoke(scope.Configurationchannel,'configurechannel',"CHAN1",Range,Offset,Coupling,Probe_attenuation,Enabled)

Input_impedance = 1000000
Max_frequency_hertz = 50000000
invoke(scope.Configurationchannel,'configurechancharacteristics',"CHAN1",Input_impedance,Max_frequency_hertz)

%%%% Channel 2 %%%%

Range = 1;
Offset = 0.0;
Coupling = 0;
Enabled = true;
Probe_attenuation = 1;
invoke(scope.Configurationchannel,'configurechannel',"CHAN2",Range,Offset,Coupling,Probe_attenuation,Enabled)

Input_impedance = 1000000
Max_frequency_hertz = 50000000
invoke(scope.Configurationchannel,'configurechancharacteristics',"CHAN2",Input_impedance,Max_frequency_hertz)

%%%% Acq settings %%%%

Acquisition_type = 0;
invoke(scope.Configurationacquisition,'configureacquisitiontype',Acquisition_type)
Time_per_record_s = 0.0008
Minimum_record_len = 5000
Acquisition_start = 0
% getting "invalid input" on oscilloscope screen on this invoke if Minimum_record_len > 1200
invoke(scope.Configurationacquisition,'configureacquisitionrecord',Time_per_record_s, Minimum_record_len, Acquisition_start)

%%%% Trigger %%%%
Trigger_type = 1
Trigger_holdoff_s = 0
Trigger_coupling = 1

invoke(scope.Configurationtriggerbaseconfigure,'configuretrigger',Trigger_type,Trigger_holdoff_s)
invoke(scope.Configurationtriggerbaseconfigure,'configuretriggercoupling',Trigger_coupling)

Trigger_source = 'CHAN2'
Trigger_lvl_v = 0.05
Trigger_slope = 1 % positive
invoke(scope.Configurationtriggeredgetrigger,'configureedgetriggersource',Trigger_source,Trigger_lvl_v,Trigger_slope)

%%%% acquisition %%%%
waveform_len = invoke(scope.Configurationconfigurationinformation, 'actualrecordlength')
waveform_array = zeros(waveform_len, 1);

% getting the matlab error here
[waveform_array, points, x0, dx] = invoke(scope.Waveformacquisition, 'readwaveform', 'CHAN1', waveform_len, 10000000, waveform_array)
plot(waveform_array)

disconnect(scope);
delete(scope);
clear scope;
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 17, 2021, 09:43:11 pm
Yes it is possible in many ways, it's not the driver's fault, can be done even without any drivers at all.  Find the proper SCPI commands in the 'DS1000Z Programming Guide' pdf.  There are many versions, look for Dec 2015 or newer maybe.

If you read the programming guide and still need more help, better start a new topic about that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 19, 2021, 01:19:23 pm
The basic procedure works

Set the instrument to STOP state (you can only read the waveform data in the internal memory when the oscilloscope is in STOP state)
Set the channel source
Set the waveform reading mode to RAW (Normal/MAX only read screen data)
Set the return format of the waveform data to BYTE (affects how much memory data can be read - BYTE=250000 > WORD=125000 > ASCii=15625)
Set the start point of waveform data reading to the first waveform point
Set the stop point of waveform data reading to the last point (if scope memory depth setting exceeds return format limits above, must batch)
Read the waveform data in the internal memory (all the points)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: PawelW on September 20, 2021, 03:21:56 pm
There is a new version 00.04.05.02.00 dated 2021-08-19 here https://www.rigol.com/products/oscillosopes/ds1000z.html (https://www.rigol.com/products/oscillosopes/ds1000z.html)
Can someone please download it and attach it here. I don't have access to this site.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on September 20, 2021, 03:43:59 pm
Here.

【This update】
v00.04.05.02.00  2021/07/24
     - new version update
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: PawelW on September 20, 2021, 03:57:34 pm
Here.

【This update】
v00.04.05.02.00  2021/07/24
     - new version update
Thank you. Already upgraded with attached file. Don't see any difference. Maybe some minor fixes were done.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 20, 2021, 04:53:08 pm
Changes log inside the firmware zip translates "new version update" (Google translate):    :-//
Code: [Select]
Support product models] All MSO/DS1000Z series oscilloscopes
【Latest revision time】 2021/07/24


[Contents of this update]
v00.04.05.02.00 2021/07/24
      - new version update

[History version description]

v00.04.05.01.00 2021/06/01
      -Modify the vertical display

v00.04.05.00.00 2020/12/29
      -Add and modify some measurement functions
      -Math problem modification
      -Modify some SCPI command errors
      -Trigger problem fix
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on September 20, 2021, 07:11:43 pm
PawelW since you took the risk of installing it, you tested if the synchronization problem with captures at 24 megabits was corrected
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/517690/rigol-ds1074-oscilloscope-shows-very-wrong-timing, the truth this time I do not feel like taking risks !!! :-//  of not being able to reinstall a previous version as I almost happened with the previous one :phew:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 20, 2021, 08:30:21 pm
the truth this time I do not feel like taking risks !!! :-//  of not being able to reinstall a previous version as I almost happened with the previous one :phew:

Now it is possible to downgrade the firmware upon wish.

Use this "Rigol_sign_disk.zip" image attached at the end of https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3613778/#msg3613778 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3613778/#msg3613778) and the oscilloscope will downgrade to any older firmware versions you copy on that Rigol signed disk.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: newbrain on September 21, 2021, 09:52:12 pm
tested if the synchronization problem with captures at 24 megabits was corrected
Nope, same problem.
500 ms/ + 24 MB => botched horizontal scaling.
Other combinations of time per division and memory seem to work, but I did not do extensive testing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: PawelW on September 23, 2021, 12:16:36 pm
I have just changed Fan to Gelid Silent 5 Fan. What a difference. It is almost silent now.
If someone has still a factory fan it is really worth doing modifications.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2021, 02:06:01 pm
I have just changed Fan to Gelid Silent 5 Fan. What a difference. It is almost silent now.
If someone has still a factory fan it is really worth doing modifications.

Yep. The fan mod is definitely worth doing!

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NEDM64 on September 23, 2021, 03:43:47 pm
I have just changed Fan to Gelid Silent 5 Fan. What a difference. It is almost silent now.
If someone has still a factory fan it is really worth doing modifications.

Yep. The fan mod is definitely worth doing!

The fan only cools the PSU or does it cool the board too?

What about temperatures?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2021, 03:58:04 pm
The fan only cools the PSU or does it cool the board too?

Neither. It just blows air out of the case.

What about temperatures?

The fans reccmmended/used here have the same airflow.

There was a guy here who swapped the fan then didn't notice that the new one wasn't spinning. He was impressed by how silent it was. The 'scope worked fine.

The 'scope is rated for a 50 degree environment so even if the temperature goes up a couple of degrees you'll be OK.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: klausES on September 23, 2021, 06:01:27 pm
Although the fan sits close to the power supply and promotes them primarily through this,
but his flow rate is, of course, the amount of air, which forcibly flows through the (entire) housing.

Do not have to flow, because completely without air stream, there were not only in the power supply,
but also on the motherboard some hotspots, which would achieve questionable temperatures without moving air within the housing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NEDM64 on September 23, 2021, 07:44:34 pm
Yes, if the fan doesn't remove the hot air from the PSU, then that air will heat the motherboard.

Also mind that the hotter the device works, the less it will last.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2021, 07:48:24 pm
We're not removing the fan or blocking it, just putting in a different one.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: klausES on September 24, 2021, 12:43:26 am
We're not removing the fan or blocking it, just putting in a different one.

I have already understood.

I only raised the objection because this one sentence (someone has exchanged the fan and not noticed that this did not ran ...)
someone could suggest someone that it could go without throughput.

The CPU has already on its outside with sufficient air throughput quite fast over 140 °F.
Have noticed with my tests with the fan control that the outlet temperature "out of the housing" can increase
at a to low-chosen flow rate (of course not by the CPU alone) after half an hour to 100 °F, in summer to over 115 °F.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2021, 06:03:10 am
I only raised the objection because this one sentence (someone has exchanged the fan and not noticed that this did not ran ...)
someone could suggest someone that it could go without throughput.

It's definitely not a good idea to run it without a fan on purpose.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on September 27, 2021, 05:56:06 pm
Changes log inside the firmware zip translates "new version update" (Google translate):    :-//
Code: [Select]
Support product models] All MSO/DS1000Z series oscilloscopes
【Latest revision time】 2021/07/24

[Contents of this update]
v00.04.05.02.00 2021/07/24
      - new version update

Maybe the RIGOL logo on the LCD screen is now blue as well in stead of yellow...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on September 28, 2021, 04:23:18 pm
Is there an updated firmware version worth installing? My last update is probably more than a year ago - I don't know my version off-hand.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Piton on October 12, 2021, 06:33:12 pm
Maybe someone will remind me how to view the extended system information, updated the firmware and could not see it. Thanks.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on October 12, 2021, 07:58:55 pm
Maybe someone will remind me how to view the extended system information, updated the firmware and could not see it. Thanks.

Quickly press buttons MENU > MENU > FORCE > MENU on “TRIGGER” buttons group, then go to info panel by pressing buttons UTILITY > SYSTEM > SYSTEM INFO in the “MENU” buttons group.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NEDM64 on October 13, 2021, 01:31:51 am
Made a little program to use this scope's capture to .CSV capability with LTspice. (maybe others)

Hope it will be usefull to anybody else...

https://github.com/RuiCarneiro/rigol2spice
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Piton on October 13, 2021, 11:52:38 am
Thanks, rob040. Maybe it will be useful to someone: on the Chinese site, you can download the firmware and other files without registration, if you write the desired model in the search.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on October 13, 2021, 02:33:35 pm
You're welcome, Piton.

I found the latest FW on the Chinese site (v00.04.05.02.02 - 2021-08-19), but when I want to download it, it goes to a login screen. How to bypass that?

Furthermore, isn't it strange that the Chinese site already published several FW updates and the NA and EU sites are miles behind?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bulba99 on October 13, 2021, 03:02:26 pm
@rob40

https://www.rigol.com/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/ftp/%E7%94%B5%E5%AD%90%E6%B5%8B%E9%87%8F%E4%BB%AA%E5%99%A8/%E7%A4%BA%E6%B3%A2%E5%99%A8/DS%20MSO1000Z/%E5%8D%87%E7%BA%A7%E7%A8%8B%E5%BA%8F/DS1000Z(ARM)Update.rar (https://www.rigol.com/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/ftp/%E7%94%B5%E5%AD%90%E6%B5%8B%E9%87%8F%E4%BB%AA%E5%99%A8/%E7%A4%BA%E6%B3%A2%E5%99%A8/DS%20MSO1000Z/%E5%8D%87%E7%BA%A7%E7%A8%8B%E5%BA%8F/DS1000Z(ARM)Update.rar)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on October 13, 2021, 05:51:09 pm
Okay, this is what I could find in the new log file:

00.04.05.02.02 Date: 2021-09-22
- Solve the problem of abnormal display when measuring overshoot in some cases.

Version: 00.04.05.02.01 Date: 2021-08-30
- Add SCPI command to query all product information and determine whether to enter engineering mode.


They are a bit fooling around with the dates.  |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Piton on October 13, 2021, 06:17:32 pm
rob040, when you go to a Chinese site, you need to write not a model, but a series (I have a DS1000Z-E) in the search, which is located at the top - on the right, and then a page with files and firmware only for this series will appear, and all this can be downloaded. If you try to download directly from the main page, where all the series are shown, then registration will be required. I discovered this by accident.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bffargo on October 14, 2021, 01:26:02 am
In the RAR file linked by bulba99, there is a .doc file that contains a lot more information than the shorter history notes. It looks to be all internal bug details addressed in each build not the simpler summaries.

Running it through google translate for some of the text that wasn't dual-language already, got the below doc for the changes since Version:00.04.03.02.02   Date:2015-09-07. If you want to see older details just browse the rest of the doc.

It is very weird though the dates don't match up with those in the normal history notes and while some versions exactly match the list of fixes (example: v00.04.04.01.01 has the same details in both but different dates: 2016-08-19 vs. 2016/09/14) others seem totally different.  I'm curious why there is such a mismatch? 

Code: [Select]
Version: 00.04.05.02.02 Date: 2021-09-22
1. Solve the problem of abnormal display when measuring overshoot in some cases
2. The change description table of the new version is at the front.

Version: 00.04.05.02.01 Date: 2021-08-30
1. Add SCPI command to query all product information and determine whether to enter engineering mode
2. Add SCPI command to read self-calibration and low-frequency compensation status

Version: 00.04.05.02.00 Date: 2021-07-24
1. Compatible with Lx25, Lx45 logic chip
2. Open deep storage, advanced triggering, decoding, waveform recording option

Version: 00.04.05.01.00 Date: 2021-06-01
1. Solve the problem that the interface display function is unavailable after default

Version:00.04.05.00.00 Date:2020-12-29
1. Solve the problem of loading the old version ref file, causing the device to hang up M
2. Modify the tracking cursor. When a is out of the screen, modify the value of B and affect the value of A M
3. In the roll mode, the tracking cursor does not move with the waveform after stop M
4. SCPI sends the amplitude parameter of DG module 4.020vpp, and the return value is 4.019 M
5. Revision: FUNC:WREP:FMAX? Command is used to query the current maximum number of playable frames M
6. Modify the problem that trigger Hold off is not applied when the trigger type without triggering Hold off function is switched back to the trigger type with triggering Hold off function M
7. :CURSor:MANual:SOURce set and query command add off parameter to set the source to none M
8. Modify the average mode, Pass fail test channel confusion problem M
9. Modify the maximum gear limit of exp operation to 1gv M
10. When math is closed, math's automatic gear is opened, vertical gear is modified, and automatic gear is updated M
11. Modify the problem of rising edge delay measurement and cursor position deviation in automatic cursor mode M
12. Modify the error of the maximum time measurement value in the automatic cursor mode M
13. Modify the single trigger mode, the last value restart, no waveform trigger problem M
14. Modify the problem of amplitude error when saving the CSV file with channel offset M
15. Modify SPI timeout trigger, when the data bit is less than 8, all bit function settings are unsuccessful M
16. Limit the upper and lower limit of trigger level to ± 5 * vertical gear - vertical offset M
17. Modify XY mode, the full screen and half screen frequently switch, leading to the problem of splash screen M
18. Revision: WAV:XOR? Return value error M
19. Revision: WAV:PRE? Partial return value problem M
20. Modify the problem that the gear is still adjustable when the channel is closed M
21. Modify the welcome page, and the web identification indicator button will not jump M
22. Modify after opening LXI, modify the host name, and the instrument crashes M
23. Fix GPIB communication failure M
24. Add: STOR:IMAGe [:STARt] <file_ Spec > command (same as ds2000), take a screenshot, and save the picture to the path specified in the parameter E
25. Add different edge delay measurement function between channels E
26. Fix LXI socket communication hang up problem M
27. GD spiflash and nandflash are compatible M
28. Factory boot compatible with Gd spiflash and nandflash M

Version:00.04.04.03.02 Date:2017-2-6
1. Fixed the period measure value is error while system is average acquire mode and 12K pts memdepth; M
2. Fixed the phase linear offset of the Filter operation results; M
3. Fixed the error of Math waveform,while system is average acquire mode and horizontal time bass is 500ms ; M
4. Fixed the location error of trigger level,when pressing the Auto button; M
5. Fixed the waveform is error while horizontal time bass is 100ms and 12M pts memdepth,when display in the “X-Y” horizontal mode; M
6. Fixed the overlap error of memory waveform,when the Scope read memory  waveform data; M
7. Fixed the problem of save memory data was wrong when the channel invert  was opened; M
8. Fixed the event table can’t close while it is openning and Loading waveform file  M
9. Fixed the not measured parameters are still displaying ,when the font size after modified M
10. Fixed the return value parameter of XOR can’t refresh correctly whlie Changed the horizontal offset M
11. Fixed the problem of the reference wave of the digital channels position is error; M
12. Fixed the frequency response curve of Digital filter is error; M
13. Fixed the measure error of average parameter when the measured signal is a DC signal; M

Version:00.04.04.03.00 Date:2016-12-20
1. Changed the Prompting English information of LA channel,  when closed the button of D7–D0; M
2. Fixed the rules of Pass/Fail created again,when the main time base changed; M
3. Fixed the problem of the position of big grids of main time base is error ,when split display in the “X-Y” horizontal mode ; M
4. Modified a low position of trigger label to the all-measurement window; M
5. Fixed the offset error of memory waveform,when the Scope read memory  waveform data; M
6. Fixed the bug of not downloading waveform to signal source; M
7. Fixed the problem of save memory data was wrong when the channel invert  was opened; M
8. Fixed the problem of the reference wave of the digital channels position is error while save the reference wave of FFT channel; M
9. Fixed the problem of power off, when horizontal delay is on and opening the waveform recorded ; M
10. Fixed the problem of unable to waveform recording,when main time bass is 100ms and Zoom time base is 100ms; M
11. Translated some traditional Chinese and Korean menus ; M


Version:00.04.04.02.00 Date:2016-10-21
1. The effective value measurement result is disturbed M
2. Self-calibration modification and perfect M
3. Improved LXI, affecting web pages, LAN communication and other related issues M
4. Turn off the low-version boot machine after upgrading, increase the CPU clock M in the APP

Version:00.04.04.01.01 Date:2016-08-23
1. Fixed the Math status of shelter from Measure M

Version:00.04.04.01.00 Date:2016-08-19
1. Supperted the multi-interface of LXI M
2. Fixed the bugs about measure M

Version:00.04.04.00.05 Date:2016-05-30
1. Fixed the bug of not stopping the DSO when Pass/Fail checked failure M

Version:00.04.04.00.04 Date:2016-05-24
1. The menu of decoder can’t refresh correctly when changing the source M

Version:00.04.04.00.03 Date:2016-05-06
1. Fixed the problem of wave and the label of position is error when full display in the “X-Y” horizontal mode; M
2. Fixed the problem of the number of grids of main timebase is error when split display in the “X-Y” horizontal mode; M
3. Fixed the problem of the first frame of record data is error when horizontal delay is on; M
4. Fixed the problem of the label of logic channel is not show when horizontal delay is on; M
5. Fixed the problem of the range of manual cursor is not updated when horizontal delay is on; M
6. Fixed the problem of the line of trigger level disappeared when moved the trigger level to the bottom of screen and horizontal delay was on; M
7. Fixed the problem of the warning tone sounded randomly while the Pass/Fail function wss failure; M

Version:00.04.04.00.00 Date:2016-04-14
1. Increase the function of split display wave in the “X-Y” horizontal mode; E
2. Increase the function of which can use the file name that the user last used in storage module; E
3. Fixed the period measure value is error while system is average acquire mode and 12K pts memdepth; M
4. Fixed the problem of the Math measure items unit is error; M
5. Fixed the problem of the system state is error while undo the “Auto” function; M
6. Fixed the problem of the data type of RS232 decoder event table is error; M
7. Fixed the problem of the system trigger state is error while load the setup file of saved in Single mode; M
8. Fixed the problem of the horizontal offset is error while undo the “Auto” function in system setup of timescale greater or equal to 200ms and horizontal offset greater than 1s; M
9. Fixed the problem of the reference wave of the analog channels position is error while save the reference wave of FFT channel; M
10. Fixed the problem of the slope trigger low level can not be adjusted while the  input signal has offset component; M
11. Fixed the problem of the low level of the pulse trigger can not be seted while use the remote command; M
12. Fixed the problem of the setup file can not be loaded by PC software; M
13. Fixed the problem of the decoder can be opened by used the remoted command while the system has not decoder option; M
14. Fixed the problem of the measure item of the pulse counter was wrong; M
15. Fixed the problem of draw cursor position was delayed when adjust the cursor position; M
16. Fixed the problem of save memory data was wrong when the channel invert  was opened; M
17. Fixed the problem of read the wave data of memory was wrong when channel 1 and chanel 2 was opened in “Single” mode; M

Version:00.04.03.02.03 Date:2015-09-11
18. Fixed the bug of the trigger option be installed while only the decoder option be installed. M

Version:00.04.03.02.02 Date:2015-09-07
1. Fixed the bug of the REF source can not select the open channels. M
2. Fixed the bug of the function of storage can not store the waveform while analog channel and logic channel are open and the memory depth is 12Mpts. M
3. Fixed the bug of the system can not use the function of Single while the system stoped and trigged. M
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bicurico on October 14, 2021, 10:18:56 am
I would suggest that the mismatch in dates is due to different programmers finishing the fixes of their functions/routines of the FW on different dates.

The FW itself is compiled at a given date, so not always everything adds up.

Also, a FW release fork might be recompiled using the same version main source code, but with some updated libraries.

A modern oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer is nowadays more than just one dedicated machine running a sequentially programmed software. Instead, it is in first place a computer running an operating system, composed of many generic libraries and then there is the specific software with it's own set of libraries. A FW update may contain updates to many different files.

I upgraded the FW of my DS1054Z yesterday with this lates version and it seems to behave OK without issues. I would assume it is perfectly safe to flash the FW.

I have no idea why western Rigol sites do not offer this latest version.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on October 14, 2021, 11:00:02 am
Stupid request, can anybody post a DS1054 print screen with the new blue logo please?
Is that the color for the boot screen Rigol logo, or for the upper left Rigol logo seen on all screens?

I want to see how the new Rigol blue logo looks like.  I'll prefer it to be yellow, without messing with firmware customization at each new update.  In fact, anything else but blue or magenta would be a OK, IMO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 14, 2021, 03:16:48 pm
Bicurico said "I updated the FW of my DS1054Z yesterday with this latest version and it seems to behave fine with no problems. I would assume that it is perfectly safe to flash the FW." Bicurico, did you test if the synchronization problem was corrected with captures at 24 megabits?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NEDM64 on October 14, 2021, 03:42:25 pm
Question is... will it break the Riglol license(s)?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on October 14, 2021, 07:10:43 pm
Question is... will it break the Riglol license(s)?

That question must have been asked and answered dozens of times in this thread. And it gets re-asked for every new firmware update, it seems.

From the scope firmware's perspective, "Riglol licenses" are the same as the officially bought upgrades -- exactly the same license codes. How would Rigol ever be able to cancel those licenses?

The only way would be to introduce a new licensing scheme and issue new keys to all customers who have bought licenses officially. Fat chance that they have separate records on all those customers around the world, over the past 7 (?) years... No, I am quite confident that Rigol will keep the original licensing scheme for the lifetime of this scope series.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NEDM64 on October 14, 2021, 09:19:18 pm
Question is... will it break the Riglol license(s)?

That question must have been asked and answered dozens of times in this thread. And it gets re-asked for every new firmware update, it seems.

From the scope firmware's perspective, "Riglol licenses" are the same as the officially bought upgrades -- exactly the same license codes. How would Rigol ever be able to cancel those licenses?

The only way would be to introduce a new licensing scheme and issue new keys to all customers who have bought licenses officially. Fat chance that they have separate records on all those customers around the world, over the past 7 (?) years... No, I am quite confident that Rigol will keep the original licensing scheme for the lifetime of this scope series.

Unless Rigol is using multiple private keys and riglol is using one of them and then they deactivate riglol's private key.

Sounds unprovable? To me it's even more unprovable that someone cracked the private key out of a public key, riglol must have been made with access to rigol's company secrets.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on October 14, 2021, 09:52:13 pm
The licenses remain valid over firmware upgrades, and the key was cracked, not stolen or leaked.  Pleas don't argue based on assumptions only.

Anybody have a screen capture to attach here with the new Rigol logo in blue, please?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bffargo on October 14, 2021, 11:00:07 pm
Logos all same color (White boot, darker yellow upper left corner).

After upgrade and a full power off/reboot; it was acting very strange.  I ended up doing a full recalibrate:
- Auto mode would never set positions or scale right for either vertical or or horizontal
- Auto mode kept kicking CH2 on even without a probe attached and then using that to base scaling on

I gave up early on in figuring out what was messed up, it was easier to kick off recalibrate and walk away for half an hour instead.  It's back to working fine.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NEDM64 on October 15, 2021, 12:46:33 am
The licenses remain valid over firmware upgrades, and the key was cracked, not stolen or leaked.  Pleas don't argue based on assumptions only.

Anybody have a screen capture to attach here with the new Rigol logo in blue, please?

Did you write the firmware of this scopes?

No? Then don't discard any possibility.

What proof do you have that the private key has been cracked? Could even be leaked on purpose by Rigol. Eg: if riglol didn't exist, I would have bought a 4 channel 100 MHz scope from Siglent instead of the DS1054Z.

Rigol could even change the public/private key and tell the costumers that installed purchased licenses to reinstall them again with new codes.

Also, your tone is not helping the interchange of ideas here. You are trying to sound like you are fed up with "stupid people", but you're just discarding possibilities basing yourself on unfounded principles.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on October 15, 2021, 03:04:47 am

After upgrade and a full power off/reboot; it was acting very strange.  I ended up doing a full recalibrate:
- Auto mode would never set positions or scale right for either vertical or or horizontal
- Auto mode kept kicking CH2 on even without a probe attached and then using that to base scaling on

I gave up early on in figuring out what was messed up, it was easier to kick off recalibrate and walk away for half an hour instead.  It's back to working fine.

Recalibration should be done after each firmware update, whether it all seems to be working OK or not.  It's specified in the update instruction:
Code: [Select]
This documentation is designed to provide guidance to customers on how to
upgrade the MSO/DS1000Z series digital oscilloscope to the version in the
"DS1000Z(ARM)update.rar" file.

The applicable models include DS1XX4Z, DS1XX4Z Plus, DS1XX4Z-S Plus,
MSO1XX4Z and MSO1XX4Z-S.
 
New versions of firmware are available at the following website.
http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3

[Notices]

    - Before upgrading, please carefully refer to the
      "MSO_DS1000Z Release Notes.txt" file to obtain the updated information of
      the firmware version.
     
    - Please make sure your USB disk can be read correctly. MSO/DS1000Z series
      is required to use a USB Flash drive disk with FAT32 format.
     
    - During the upgrade process, please do not cut off power and pull out the
      USB disk, otherwise the instrument will fail to work normally.
     
    - MSO/DS1000Z series digital oscilloscope does not support the downgrading
      operations.

[Upgrading Procedures]

    1. Copy the upgrade file DS1000ZUpdate.GEL to the root directory of the USB
       disk.
       
    2. Keep the instrument in the power-on state, then insert the USB disk into
       the USB HOST interface (next to the Power key).
       
    3. A prompt message is automatically displayed on the interface, reminding
       you that an upgrade file has been detected and ask you whether to upgrade
       it. You can click Ok to start to upgrade.
       
    4. During the upgrade, the instrument interface will display the current
       upgrade progress.
       
    5. When the interface displays "Upgrade finished!", restart the instrument.
   
    6. Check whether the firmware version number has been updated
       (press Utility -> System -> System Info).
       
    7. After upgrading has been completed, perform the self-calibration
       operation. Make sure that the instrument has been warmed up or has been
       operating for more than 30 minutes before the self-calibration.
       
        a. Disconnect all input channels;
       
        b. Press Utility -> Self-Cal, then click Start to perform the
           self-calibration.
           
        c. It takes about 30 minutes to perform the self-calibration.
       
        d. After the calibration has been completed, a prompt message will be
           displayed on the interface. Then, restart the instrument.

[Troubleshooting]

    - If the instrument failed to read the upgrade file from the USB disk,
      please try to replace the USB disk.
     
    - If the problem still persists, please try to re-download the upgrade file.
   
    - If the problem still persists after performing the above two operations,
      please visit the website int.rigol.com to find contacts in your area.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on October 15, 2021, 07:52:52 am
Did you write the firmware of this scopes?

No? Then don't discard any possibility.

What proof do you have that the private key has been cracked? Could even be leaked on purpose by Rigol. Eg: if riglol didn't exist, I would have bought a 4 channel 100 MHz scope from Siglent instead of the DS1054Z.

Don't get yourself in a rabbit's hole of conspiracy theories BS or you'll be here talking only to yourself very fast. Respect people that answer you even if you don't like their answer.

The key was cracked as any other riglol/rigup private key because it takes miliseconds to do it. The FWs never included the private keys.

Nobody here needs to be the original programmer, they just need to know how to read code besides knowing somethings about asym crypto.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2021, 08:05:36 am
Rigol could even change the public/private key and tell the costumers that installed purchased licenses to reinstall them again with new codes.

Did you even bother to read the changelog?

It says things like:

Version: 00.04.05.02.00 Date: 2021-07-24
2. Open deep storage, advanced triggering, decoding, waveform recording option


ie. Rigol has just given everybody the options for free. Anybody who installs this firmware will get them, even the oldest customers.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: tv84 on October 15, 2021, 08:09:01 am
ie. Rigol has just given everybody the options for free. Anybody who installs this firmware will get them, even the oldest customers.

Was it Rigol?  :-DD
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2021, 08:49:52 am
ie. Rigol has just given everybody the options for free. Anybody who installs this firmware will get them, even the oldest customers.

Was it Rigol?  :-DD

Rigol has two lines of 'scopes. Some that are really, really easy to hack and others that are really difficult (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol_s-internal-i2c-bus/).

It seems obvious to me that Rigol unofficially "allows" the hacking. They'd all be in the "really difficult" category otherwise.

It's not as if they don't know it happens.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NEDM64 on October 15, 2021, 12:26:38 pm
ie. Rigol has just given everybody the options for free. Anybody who installs this firmware will get them, even the oldest customers.

Was it Rigol?  :-DD

Rigol has two lines of 'scopes. Some that are really, really easy to hack and others that are really difficult (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol_s-internal-i2c-bus/).

It seems obvious to me that Rigol unofficially "allows" the hacking. They'd all be in the "really difficult" category otherwise.

It's not as if they don't know it happens.

This.

However, the 100MHz option is not unlocked with the newest firmware, it's the one that matters me the most.

@ebastler if it works like asymmetric encryption, then it is asymmetric encryption independent on how good the implementation is. I read (some of) riglol's source code and the basis is that they have a private key, don't know who got the key (and/or wrote the program), and how they did they obtain the key, cracking the encryption scheme, brute-forcing or social engineering.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: frozenfrogz on October 15, 2021, 03:50:07 pm
AFAIK EEVBlog user cybernet is the one that threw some stones at the Rigol firmware, then poked it with a stick and it soon became obvious, that the encryption must have been implemented by an unpaid intern - or something along that line.

Related: http://poke152.blogspot.com/2013/07/riglol.html (http://poke152.blogspot.com/2013/07/riglol.html)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bicurico on October 15, 2021, 05:26:41 pm
Once a keygen is released for a test equipment, it becomes very difficult for the manufacturer to close the door.

Unless the number of sold devices is reduced, so that the new FW can contain the serials and respective options of all devices, it is basically impossible to change the license mechanism without having all legitimate customers entering new keys.

The Riglol hack produces serials that are 100% identical to the official ones. How should a new FW invalidate illegitimatly activated options?

It is perfectly safe to install new DS1054Z FW releases and meanwhile it has been made public how to revert to older FW by use of a magic USB disk.

Regarding the other questions: I am not at home and I have not tested anything.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2021, 05:41:46 pm
The Riglol hack produces serials that are 100% identical to the official ones. How should a new FW invalidate illegitimatly activated options?

Easy: The key has a lot of digits. The first firmware could only check the first 10 digits are correct. The next firmware checks 12 digits. etc. Spread the firmware updates out over several years. and you create a constant cycle of disappearing options and new keygens.

It won't fix the problem because the new keygens will eventually appear, but it answers your question.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NEDM64 on October 15, 2021, 06:03:52 pm
AFAIK EEVBlog user cybernet is the one that threw some stones at the Rigol firmware, then poked it with a stick and it soon became obvious, that the encryption must have been implemented by an unpaid intern - or something along that line.

Related: http://poke152.blogspot.com/2013/07/riglol.html (http://poke152.blogspot.com/2013/07/riglol.html)

Nice, he seems to have reversed the firmware qnd it looks like it only has one public key in it.

Once a keygen is released for a test equipment, it becomes very difficult for the manufacturer to close the door.

Unless the number of sold devices is reduced, so that the new FW can contain the serials and respective options of all devices, it is basically impossible to change the license mechanism without having all legitimate customers entering new keys.

The Riglol hack produces serials that are 100% identical to the official ones. How should a new FW invalidate illegitimatly activated options?

It is perfectly safe to install new DS1054Z FW releases and meanwhile it has been made public how to revert to older FW by use of a magic USB disk.

Regarding the other questions: I am not at home and I have not tested anything.

Regards,
Vitor


Having multiple private keys and if one becomes compromised, deactivate one. Reissue activation codes to the legitimate costumers that have been issued activation codes with the compromised private key.

While it seems to not be the case, it's perfectly possible and if I were to engineer the product, that would be the way I would do, specially considering these multinational companies were they have offices overseas with just sales people and then there are the subversive employees. It's a 2-in-1: disable the hacks and find the responsible.

Also, it's not impossible. If Rigol wants to block past "illegitimate" software upgrades with a software update, they can.

They might have sold a lot of scopes, but these things don't sell in the numbers of PlayStations or iPhones, also most of them are bought for education and QA (running pass/fail tests), so the number of costumers that bought these scopes and upgraded must be really low, let's say 1 million.

If Rigol really wanted, they could include a whitelist in the new firmware, just 1MB would be good enough for 1 million 8bit hashes of the permitted machines. Then issue a second public/private key pair.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Bicurico on October 15, 2021, 07:07:51 pm
If you want to do it properly, you would include a whitelist with all serial numbers and respective legitimate options. While I accept that 8 bit might be enough to code all possible options of a DS1000Z series oscilloscope, the serial numbers will require much more bits. I would say you would need 8 bytes for serial + model and then another byte for the active options. Lets go with 8 bytes (aka 64 bits). For one million devices out on the market, you would require an extra 8MB flash space. I doubt that is feasiable on these device.

Also, the upgrade process would take quite a while: check the serial number against the white list, generate new keys for legitimate options listed in whitelist, replace private key with new one.

The next question is: how long would it take for a new keygen?

I am pretty sure that Rigol has more important R&D in course than improving this low-end device hack. I would even say that this hack was tolerated as it considerably increased sales and put Rigol on the map.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2021, 07:20:36 pm
I am pretty sure that Rigol has more important R&D in course than improving this low-end device hack. I would even say that this hack was tolerated as it considerably increased sales and put Rigol on the map.

It's over $1000 with all options. They'd have sold zero units at that price.

As it is they took almost the entire "hobby" market for a number of years and I doubt they lost money on any of them.

Right now they're doing the exact same thing with the MSO5000. There's no way they aren't allowing it as a sales tactic.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: nigelwright7557 on October 15, 2021, 07:58:13 pm
I just work with audio so a ebay cheapie does me very well.
Why spend hundreds when sub $30 does the job well ?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: NEDM64 on October 16, 2021, 01:53:15 pm
If you want to do it properly, you would include a whitelist with all serial numbers and respective legitimate options. While I accept that 8 bit might be enough to code all possible options of a DS1000Z series oscilloscope, the serial numbers will require much more bits. I would say you would need 8 bytes for serial + model and then another byte for the active options. Lets go with 8 bytes (aka 64 bits). For one million devices out on the market, you would require an extra 8MB flash space. I doubt that is feasiable on these device.

The S/N already includes the model info. You don't need to exactly store the S/Ns, a hash function would suffice for a high probability.

There's about 60 megs free on the flash memory.

Quote
Also, the upgrade process would take quite a while: check the serial number against the white list, generate new keys for legitimate options listed in whitelist, replace private key with new one.

A couple of µsecs.

Quote
The next question is: how long would it take for a new keygen?

I am pretty sure that Rigol has more important R&D in course than improving this low-end device hack. I would even say that this hack was tolerated as it considerably increased sales and put Rigol on the map.

That would be the case, also, with the current firmware, it's working properly for 99.9999% of users, so if they (we) see they will lose their riglols, they wouldn't upgrade.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 16, 2021, 06:25:01 pm
Bicurico, did you test if the synchronization problem was corrected with captures at 24 megabits?
Hello Adrian,
the error still exists.

Peter

Thanks PeDre, it seems that it is an error without solution, since they have released several firmware and they have not solved it :-\
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on October 16, 2021, 07:57:47 pm
Thanks PeDre, it seems that it is an error without solution, since they have released several firmware and they have not solved it :-\

Is Rigol aware of this error? I'm asking because when I confronted the EU service rep years ago with the lack of solving the pulses/pluses error, he answered "We just heard of it" while it was already an issue on this forum for a long time.  Several months later it was fixed...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 17, 2021, 11:22:30 pm
Thanks PeDre, it seems that it is an error without solution, since they have released several firmware and they have not solved it :-\

Is Rigol aware of this error? I'm asking because when I confronted the EU service rep years ago with the lack of solving the pulses/pluses error, he answered "We just heard of it" while it was already an issue on this forum for a long time.  Several months later it was fixed...
I at the time sent the link where the error and own captures are discussed and he will answer that it was solved and it was not.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 30, 2021, 04:08:44 pm
Friend RoGeorge how to use this file * Rigol_sign_disk.zip, which you posted. slds
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on October 30, 2021, 04:50:41 pm
The instructions of how to use it are in the same place where Rigol_sign_disk.zip is attached, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3613778/#msg3613778 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3613778/#msg3613778)

First, you extract the content from the zip.  You will get a file named "card_FAT32_w_SIGN_manually_added_103E00".  Then, you use either dd (in Linux) or Win32DiskImager (in Windows), as Miti tested in the next reply after the one linked.  Once you prepared the disk, you copy any firmware you want and then do the update procedure.

1. Why do you need the disk?
2. What exactly is not working on your oscilloscope?
3. What did you tried so far and what are the results?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 31, 2021, 04:04:44 pm
The instructions of how to use it are in the same place where Rigol_sign_disk.zip is attached, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3613778/#msg3613778 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3613778/#msg3613778)

First, you extract the content from the zip.  You will get a file named "card_FAT32_w_SIGN_manually_added_103E00".  Then, you use either dd (in Linux) or Win32DiskImager (in Windows), as Miti tested in the next reply after the one linked.  Once you prepared the disk, you copy any firmware you want and then do the update procedure.

1. Why do you need the disk?
2. What exactly is not working on your oscilloscope?
3. What did you tried so far and what are the results?

RoGeorge, I had installed the firmware 00.04.05.02.02, the traces did not align with the markers, when I tried to calibrate it failed several times, I had downloaded Rigol_sign_disk.zip, and I thought last grade with this method, but I began to reiterate calibrating After each refusal, it turned off and returned to calibrate, on the sixth attempt it calibrated and started working again. Thanks for your questions of what was the reason. slds



RoGeorge, yo habia instalado el firmware 00.04.05.02.02, los rastro no se aliniaban con los marcadores, cuando intente calibrar fallo varias veces, yo habia descargado  Rigol_sign_disk.zip, y pense de ultima degrado con este metodo, pero comenze a reitentar calibrar, tras cada negativa, apaga y regresaba a calibrar, al sexto intento calibro y volvio a funcionar. gracias por tus preguntas de cual era el motivo. slds
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: SERJSOCHI on December 11, 2021, 03:51:31 pm
Some people ask me to update SimpleUI firmware (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3219920/#msg3219920).

Updated SimpleUI for DS1054z based on 00.04.05.02.02 attached to post.

Also you can test my program to capture (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-screen-capture-vcl-windows-application/msg3724993/#msg3724993) DS1054z's screen to PC via tree connect ways.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TDQ7050 on January 05, 2022, 03:06:37 pm
Could somebody please provide me a link to the 00.04.05.02.02 firmware? The link including the Chinese characters doesn't work for me, I always receive an empty file.
Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on January 05, 2022, 04:09:46 pm
Could somebody please provide me a link to the 00.04.05.02.02 firmware? The link including the Chinese characters doesn't work for me, I always receive an empty file.
Thanks!

First link (listed 5 years ago at point 7. (https://rogeorge.wordpress.com/2017/01/08/ds1054z-tricks-less-known-or-undocumented-part-1/)   <---   shameless plug  ;D) seems it's still working.  :-+
No registration required and always the latest firmware, today: 04.05.02.02  (checked the DS1000ZUpdate.GEL file zipped inside DS1000ZUpdate.zip, and the .GEL file starts with "DS1000Z00.04.05.02.02").

The link with always the latest firmware and no stupid registration required:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on January 05, 2022, 04:11:09 pm
It's now also available on the European website:

https://www.rigol.eu/SUPPORTS/software-firmware-download.html (https://www.rigol.eu/SUPPORTS/software-firmware-download.html)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on January 05, 2022, 04:25:25 pm
Hm, the EU website has the same firmware, but different!  ;D
Same checksum for the .GEL file, but packed as .rar instead of .zip, and without the Release Notes file.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TDQ7050 on January 05, 2022, 06:20:15 pm
Thanks for your help!
This is all a bit confusing: the European website shows both 00.04.05.02.02 and 00.04.04.04.03, the release note just mentions the 00.04.05.02.00...

The link http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) still contains the old 00.04.04.04.03 version and a release memo of a version 00.04.03.02.03 of 2015...that's why I haven't tried that one.

Finally, the European file 00.04.05.02.02 worked for me (which wasn't yet available yesterday evening). And I've learned that the version number can be found in the first bytes...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on January 05, 2022, 07:15:18 pm
The general USA firmware site for all Rigol products is:

   https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/

Be sure NOT to mix up the DS1000Z and DS1000Z-E firmware.  They are NOT interchangable!

DS1000Z:
   (https://res.cloudinary.com/iwh/image/upload/q_auto,g_center/w_auto,e_trim,c_fill,g_auto/assets/1/26/DS1054Z.jpg)


DS1000Z-E:
   (https://res.cloudinary.com/iwh/image/upload/q_auto,g_center/w_auto,e_trim,c_fill,g_auto/assets/1/26/RigolDS1102Z-E.jpg)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: oz2cpu on January 05, 2022, 08:18:59 pm
feel free to see this, my tests, my upgrades, noise

https://webx.dk/rigol/

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mechatrommer on January 05, 2022, 08:31:23 pm
feel free to see this, my tests, my upgrades, noise
https://webx.dk/rigol/
testing dso at more than nyquist sampling rate (>= 500MHz), what you see is aliasing... btw upgraded to 4.5.2 thanks for update people but i need to recalibrate since the upgrade introduce voltage offset on unconnected input.. fwiw...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on January 05, 2022, 10:08:27 pm
The link http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-0019/t/page/fm/0) still contains the old 00.04.04.04.03 version and a release memo of a version 00.04.03.02.03 of 2015...that's why I haven't tried that one.

The text of that page and the pdf files there are irrelevant, but the download file is correct.  The .GEL is the latest, and it's for DS1054z, no need to untangle same between confusing DS1000Z vs DS1000E.

In that page you need to click the firmware download link, where it writes
Quote
The upgraded firmware for a DS1Z Series Scope can be downloaded from here
   
                             DS1ZUpdate.ZIP
and a file named "DS1000ZUpdate.zip" will be downloaded.  Inside the .zip, there is the firmware file, called "DS1000ZUpdate.GEL", and another text file called "MSO_DS1000Z Release Notes.txt" (inside the same .zip) with brief explanations of what was changed in the new firmware.  This info file is missing from the EU .rar file, but not needed by the oscilloscope.

The .GEL files from both sources are the same, so you don't need to take any extra action.

After any firmware update, don't forget to run a self-calibration (it is written somewhere in the Rigol docs).

To self-calibrate, keep the instrument running for at least half an hour to warm it up, unplug any probes, then to start a calibration press the white button "Utility", then in the column of buttons near the side of the display, press "down arrow" and the grey button "Self-Cal" -> "Start".

It will take about half an hour, or so, to finish.  Once the calibration is ended, restart (press the power button).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: E Kafeman on January 06, 2022, 01:32:20 am
Have updated to 00.04.05.SP2.
Everything went well. Options remains unchanged.
But allowed size of logo file is now reduced to a small icon of around 3kbyte.
As I understand it is allocated logo file space in this firmware version still same as for older firmware versions but now original included logo file is just around 240x180 and RigolPacker does not allow increase of that size.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: hammy on January 06, 2022, 12:18:50 pm
Same here. Updated to 00.04.05.02.02 (aka 00.04.05.SP2) and everything looks fine. :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: metrologist on January 13, 2022, 10:23:50 pm
What was actually fixed? I haven't updated in a couple years (maybe 04.04.04.03), so any reason to do so?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on January 14, 2022, 02:31:43 am
What was actually fixed? I haven't updated in a couple years (maybe 04.04.04.03), so any reason to do so?

Why wouldn't you update?  I have not seen any ill effects.

'Fixed' isn't the word that comes to my mind.
However, a list of changes was posted a few pages back:
   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3745558/#msg3745558 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3745558/#msg3745558)

Most noticeable to me is that a lot of new measurements have been added in the menus to the left of the screen.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JonP on March 14, 2022, 09:07:21 pm
Been quite a while since last FW update,  just did the following and have the same positive experience,  though haven't given it a good shakedown yet....

Same here. Updated to 00.04.05.02.02 (aka 00.04.05.SP2) and everything looks fine. :-+

But,  wondering about the following statement, regarding the changelog comment.  Has this been verified?

ie. Rigol has just given everybody the options for free. Anybody who installs this firmware will get them, even the oldest customers.

So,  my question,  I had everything unlocked,  from long ago,   and thought I wanted to set to DSER, to turn off the 500uV feature.  Sure enough after the firmware update everything was still turned on,  went to the site, got a key for DSER,  applied and...   everything is still set on,  including the 500uV.   I'm forgetting if you need to re-unlock features after a FW update.

Did I miss something,  or does the 00.04.05.SP2 FW remove the ability to change what features are set? (after turning them all on?)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 14, 2022, 10:24:09 pm
DSER won't re-lock anything.

What you need to do is remove all options first then apply DSER.

Connect via telnet and type ":SYStem:OPTion:UNINSTall" to remove everything.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on March 14, 2022, 11:04:18 pm
When you added the 500uV option, the already existing options were preserved.  Once unlocked, the options will remain unlocked after a firmware update.  It is not needed to re-unlock after a firmware upgrade.  Firmware updates does not disable the existing options.

The only thing needed after a firmware upgrade is to run a self calibration (from Utility -> Self-Cal).  Before doing a self calibration, unplug all the probes from their BNC connectors, and let the oscilloscope running for at least half an hour for internal temperatures to stabilize.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: JonP on March 15, 2022, 03:27:49 am
Figured...  Never saw it explicitly stated in my reading around,  but was starting to get the idea.  Kind of expected that setting the DSER would overwrite the original,  but that's what happens when you expect vs experiment...

I take it that having the 500uV feature on doesn't cause any problems, other than unreliable vertical readings when you use it?  I'll still clear it out,  of course.  Probably recal again too,  so it doesn't try to cal the "500uV" setting.

Off to do some Telnetting...
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2022, 08:49:06 am
Figured...  Never saw it explicitly stated in my reading around,  but was starting to get the idea.  Kind of expected that setting the DSER would overwrite the original,  but that's what happens when you expect vs experiment...

It's obvious if you think about it: When you buy a code to add a new feature you don't want it to remove any existing features when you apply it.

I take it that having the 500uV feature on doesn't cause any problems, other than unreliable vertical readings when you use it?  I'll still clear it out,  of course.  Probably recal again too,  so it doesn't try to cal the "500uV" setting.

Off to do some Telnetting...

I think the whole problem with the 500uV setting is that self-cal doesn't calibrate it. That's why some people say it works and some people say it doesn't.

It's not a good idea to enable it though, IMHO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 15, 2022, 09:16:01 am
The whole point is that even 1mV/div and 2 mV/div is software magnified "resolution...
Meaning 500uV/div is not only 5 bits of resolution in theory (less than that ENOB) it also has offset and drift from 3 steps up.... And also noise that is from much larger range. If there were not so much noise, you could clearly see discrete 32 steps over whole screen....
Therefore not very useful.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on March 15, 2022, 11:25:00 am
500uV/div is very handy, especially when the scope is in high resolution mode, same for the averaging mode ("Acquire" -> "Mode" set to "Average") when the signal is very small but repetitive.

As an example measuring very small resistances (millioms range) with the oscilloscope, like measuring a contact resistance, or the internal resistance of a battery, etc:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-with-trace-averaging-as-a-lock-in-amplifier-(rigol-ds1054z)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-with-trace-averaging-as-a-lock-in-amplifier-(rigol-ds1054z)/)

I have the 500uV/div option since the very beginning, and it works very well, despite the urban legend that it would be bad.  It's a software option.  It brings no damage and no inconvenience to any other options.  Can be removed later if not wanted.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2022, 11:34:08 am
500uV/div is very handy, especially when the scope is in high resolution mode, same for the averaging mode ("Acquire" -> "Mode" set to "Average") when the signal is very small but repetitive.

As an example measuring very small resistances with the oscilloscope, milliohms range, for a contact resistance, or the internal resistance of a battery, etc):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-with-trace-averaging-as-a-lock-in-amplifier-(rigol-ds1054z)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-with-trace-averaging-as-a-lock-in-amplifier-(rigol-ds1054z)/)

Yep.

I have the 500uV/div option since the very beginning, and it works very well, despite the urban legend that it's bad.  It's a software option.  It brings no damage and no inconvenience to any other options.  Can be removed later if not wanted.

As I noted earlier, it's said that self-cal doesn't calibrate that range so maybe you have to get lucky for it to work. If it doesn't work then it's annoying to have that feature enabled - you can't just whizz the scale to the lowest possible range, you have to whizz then go back one notch.

Is anybody up for a definitive test? Can you apply a small voltage to one of the inputs then do a self-cal and see if the 500uV range changes?

(I don't have my DS1054Z any more so I can't do it)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on March 15, 2022, 12:04:28 pm
Is anybody up for a definitive test? Can you apply a small voltage to one of the inputs then do a self-cal and see if the 500uV range changes?

(I don't have my DS1054Z any more so I can't do it)

I'm not curious to find that, because either way (included in self-calibration or not) I've used 500uV/div many times, and found it very useful, even when the zero has a small offset from the grid.

Then, if 500uV is software only (just a 2x vertical zoom on the screen), then it might be nothing to calibrate about it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2022, 12:10:40 pm
Is anybody up for a definitive test? Can you apply a small voltage to one of the inputs then do a self-cal and see if the 500uV range changes?

I'm not curious to find that

Not even in the name of science?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on March 15, 2022, 01:49:49 pm
500uV/div is very handy, especially when the scope is in high resolution mode, same for the averaging mode ("Acquire" -> "Mode" set to "Average") when the signal is very small but repetitive.

As an example measuring very small resistances (millioms range) with the oscilloscope, like measuring a contact resistance, or the internal resistance of a battery, etc:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-with-trace-averaging-as-a-lock-in-amplifier-(rigol-ds1054z)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-with-trace-averaging-as-a-lock-in-amplifier-(rigol-ds1054z)/)

I have the 500uV/div option since the very beginning, and it works very well, despite the urban legend that it would be bad.  It's a software option.  It brings no damage and no inconvenience to any other options.  Can be removed later if not wanted.

It is not an urban legend. I had DS1074Z.


It was useless for normal work compared to scopes with real 500uV/div range.

Anything less than 4mV/div (in fine mode you can set 4mv/div) is software magnified. Meaning :
2mV/div    128 levels.
1mV/div     64 levels
500uV/div  32 levels

I remember 2mV was quite OK, and 1mV was usable. There is already quite some noise so ENOB is already at 6 bit level anyways..

In that topic you are using averaging for an impromptu "lock in amplifier" effect.
That will "excavate" signal out of the noise and interpolate low bit count.
As I said there it is quite clever and creative use.

But you are correct. It hurts nobody if you enable it..
And occasionally someone clever like you can use it for something useful.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on March 15, 2022, 05:36:20 pm
Indeed, I never use 500uV/div other than in averaging mode.

Rigol DS1054Z is very noisy for mV range signals, especially when compared with old analog scopes, though those were way more expensive to buy new, and not many were having a 500uV/div option.




About internal noise, my DS1054Z measures about 1mVpp noise with no probes, 500uV/div, 5ms/div, no bandwidth limit, no average and all 4 channels on.  For some reason CH3 is much noisier, showing 1.35mVpp noise.  :-//

5mV/s includes the mains 50Hz hum noises, maybe some 1/f noises too, because at 5ns/div the measured Vpp noise becomes about 2-3 times smaller.

At very fast sweeps, there is also a small artifact, like a 1-2mVpp wiggle for about 10ns around the sync point.  This is easier to notice in averaging mode.  It is more visible on the channel used for sync.  This wiggle seems to be there no matter what.  It happens at 1mV/div, too, just that it shows half amplitude in the wiggling.

In term of offset deviations, on mine the traces have less than +/- 0.5div offset on 500uV/div, and half of that at 1mV/div.  The offset can shift with time, in 30-60 minutes for example going from +0.5 to -0.5 div because of temperature changes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Datman on March 17, 2022, 10:26:48 pm
Hi

Does the v00.04.05.02.00  2021/07/24 update affect the 100MHz limit? It is more than an option...
If bandwidth comes back to 50MHz, can I reapply Riglol for 100MHz? I think yes... Can you confirm?

Thanks
Gianluca
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shock on March 18, 2022, 06:47:42 am
The updates haven't disabled any licensing. If they were to change the licensing scheme all customers would need to acquire reissued licenses. It would become a nightmare.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on March 18, 2022, 07:01:21 am
Does the v00.04.05.02.00  2021/07/24 update affect the 100MHz limit?

No.

(and an update never will)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Electrofinn on June 01, 2022, 01:33:30 am
Can anyone please tell me if this weird knot is normal? only seems to happen on channel 1. Also [attachimg=2]included picture with all four channels enabled.
(http://[attachimg=1])
(http://[attachimg=2])

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on June 01, 2022, 01:38:49 am
Yes, this is normal. you are triggering on channel 1, so all the rising edges get shown on top of each other. If you switch to any other channel and switch the  trigger source to the same channel, you will see the same exact thing.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Electrofinn on June 01, 2022, 01:45:03 am
Quote
Yes, this is normal. you are triggering on channel 1, so all the rising edges get shown on top of each other. If you switch to any other channel and switch the  trigger source to the same channel, you will see the same exact thing.

Ahh yes I see, just done that and yes it does exactly as you described. I'm Just a beginner with much to learn, thank you.  :-+
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: trmntr on December 13, 2022, 05:51:23 pm
Good evening! Is there any reliable information about what these values ​​highlighted in the attached photo mean? Each time reload, these values, underlined in red, change each time.
(https://i.ibb.co/Zg8x1d3/DS1-Z-Quick-Print1.png) (https://ibb.co/R60c421)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on December 13, 2022, 06:56:31 pm
The last one, 11, tells how many time you powered on the oscilloscope.  If you turn it off, then on again, it should show 12.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: seronday on December 13, 2022, 10:46:58 pm
From the screen shot above, 
 
00:4  is the operating time for the current secession in Days  Hours : Minutes.
3 6:24  is the total operating time in  Days Hours : Minutes.

StartUp Cnter  is the total number of times the DSO has been powered On.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: PawelW on May 15, 2023, 07:11:23 pm
There is a new version of firmware on the Chinese page https://www.rigol.com/products/detail/DS1000Z (https://www.rigol.com/products/detail/DS1000Z) it has a date 2023-04-10
Inside in readme file, there are two dates:

[Supported Model]    All the MSO/DS1000Z Series Digital Oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date]   2022/03/25

[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.05.02.04  2023/02/28
     -Added new nandflash driver and original nandflash compatibility
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 15, 2023, 07:47:21 pm
[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.05.02.04  2023/02/28
     -Added new nandflash driver and original nandflash compatibility

Sounds like a manufacturing change.

Maybe they changed the internal memory on the latest ones coming off the production line or something like that.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on May 15, 2023, 11:40:36 pm
the readme says that it is compatible for the rigol ds1000z versions, it would be necessary to see if it works for mine, which I acquired in 2018, since it is to update the nandflash controller, if it is one of those produced recently or all.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 16, 2023, 04:24:10 am
the readme says that it is compatible for the rigol ds1000z versions, it would be necessary to see if it works for mine, which I acquired in 2018, since it is to update the nandflash controller.

If it ain't broke...  :-//

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: beatman on May 16, 2023, 08:27:43 am
just do the chinese update scope works like before
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Njk on May 16, 2023, 03:06:35 pm

[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.05.02.04  2023/02/28
     -Added new nandflash driver and original nandflash compatibility
Looks like a minor update as only the last digit is changed in the version number. But the rev. history discloses more important information.
The reason for the previous version is now clear:

Code: [Select]
v00.04.05.02.03  2022/03/25
     -add system file backup, solve the problems of red screen when booting, buzzer beeping, keyboard flashing

It must be a frequent issue, because there is related app note on the N.A. web site. And this is exactly what I'd experienced. It does not boot, red screen, and an attempt to apply the proposed fix results in buzzer beeping, keyboard flashing.

To my knowledge, v00.04.05.02.03 was never published. Assuming every update is cumulative, the latest version incorporates a fix for the red screen issue as well. For those running a version older than v00.04.05.02.03, it'll make sense to upgrade to the new version ASAP, just to be on the safe side. IMHO.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on May 16, 2023, 04:05:45 pm
Must be a problem for newer hardware versions.  My DS1054Z is from 2015 or so, and never had boot problems.  Since it's working fine and there are no new features in the recent firmware, I see no reason to upgrade.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 16, 2023, 04:13:40 pm
Must be a problem for newer hardware versions.  My DS1054Z is from 2015 or so, and never had boot problems.  Since it's working fine and there are no new features in the recent firmware, I see no reason to upgrade.

Never saw it either.

Maybe the problem was with a different supplier of NAND flash they started using.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mwb1100 on May 16, 2023, 06:09:19 pm
The red screen problem has been around for a while (no idea how frequent it is).  See https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-red-screen-of-death/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-red-screen-of-death/)

I've seen a red-screened DS1054z go for peanuts on eBay as "for parts/not working" within the past half year or so.  If this update makes it an easy fix, someone got a good deal.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 16, 2023, 06:46:10 pm
The red screen problem has been around for a while (no idea how frequent it is).  See https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-red-screen-of-death/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-red-screen-of-death/)

"Very infrequent" is my guess.

In that thread it says it's related to the NAND flash.  :)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-red-screen-of-death/msg1451303/#msg1451303 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-red-screen-of-death/msg1451303/#msg1451303)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: PawelW on May 17, 2023, 11:58:06 am
Maybe they are replacing those faulty nands with other manufacturer NAND and this is a reason why this version has new drivers.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Njk on May 17, 2023, 04:11:19 pm
It's not a cultivated memory device like eMMC. Rigol still uses raw NAND Flash chips so it's the programmer's burden to perform error handling, bad block management, wear leveling. Longevity of the product depends on how well it is implemented. Only Rigol knows the actual quality of its SW in that regard. In worst case, first bad block appearance results in device failure. "solve the problems of red screen when booting" might mean improvement in Flash housekeeping code.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on May 17, 2023, 11:42:11 pm
It's not a cultivated memory device like eMMC. Rigol still uses raw NAND Flash chips so it's the programmer's burden to perform error handling, bad block management, wear leveling. Longevity of the product depends on how well it is implemented. Only Rigol knows the actual quality of its SW in that regard. In worst case, first bad block appearance results in device failure. "solve the problems of red screen when booting" might mean improvement in Flash housekeeping code.

I reverse engineered a fair bit of the DS1054Z firmware, including the NAND filesystem code a few years ago. I can't comment on recent firmwares, because I haven't looked at them, but I was left with the impression (on 00.04.04.03.02, I think) that the flash handling was somewhat basic. This code was present in both the bootloader and the application firmware:

https://github.com/rickyzheng/uffs
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on May 18, 2023, 12:46:02 am
In their "mature" instruments, Rigol stores frequently altered data in a separate FRAM chip that's virtually inert against write wear. Not sure for all their recent gear, but at least the DG800/900/2000 series of AWGs still contains an FRAM chip (MB85RC16) (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiLuOfQ0v3-AhUewAIHHdSuDvwQFnoECAgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fujitsu.com%2Fus%2FImages%2FMB85RC16-DS501-00001-8v0-E.pdf&usg=AOvVaw08SQbZ-iLoH7RvNRBXpC_j).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: smithnerd on May 18, 2023, 01:53:36 am
According to my notes, I had some doubts about the uffs page size being correct for the SKhynix H27U1G8F2B NAND chip's block/spare sizes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on May 18, 2023, 03:56:46 am
I reverse engineered a fair bit of the DS1054Z firmware, including the NAND filesystem code a few years ago. I can't comment on recent firmwares, because I haven't looked at them, but I was left with the impression (on 00.04.04.03.02, I think) that the flash handling was somewhat basic.

It doesn't need to be very sophisticated. The flash isn't being written to all day long. Just screenshots and the occasional firmware update.

I believe the current state (which has to be saved after every button press) goes in a separate FRAM.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Njk on May 19, 2023, 12:25:45 am
I reverse engineered a fair bit of the DS1054Z firmware, including the NAND filesystem code a few years ago. I can't comment on recent firmwares, because I haven't looked at them, but I was left with the impression (on 00.04.04.03.02, I think) that the flash handling was somewhat basic. This code was present in both the bootloader and the application firmware:

https://github.com/rickyzheng/uffs
Community is power, but full reverse engineering of a system of that complexity seems quite difficult.

UFFS is just a generic code that requires adaption/porting for particular project. Simplification or extension could be done in the process. The design uses raw flash part, so in general, the code needs to be updated each time the part type is changed. That alone creates a good source of bugs.

BTW, UFFS is still of v1.3.6, in which "Dynamic wear-leveling, Static wear-leveling is not implemented", according to the pdf document.

For most people (including the managers) new features are more interesting while improved reliability is something difficult to sell. The only incentive to improve reliability is a high return rate. We know how lazy Rigol is with new firmwares. The fact that a new version (I mean 00.04.05.02.03, not the latest one) has appear suggests that the red screen problem was really noticeable. BTW in that version, the boot code is the same as in 00.04.05.02.02, so perhaps a bad block in flash is not the only cause.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Njk on May 19, 2023, 12:37:47 am
In their "mature" instruments, Rigol stores frequently altered data in a separate FRAM chip that's virtually inert against write wear. Not sure for all their recent gear, but at least the DG800/900/2000 series of AWGs still contains an FRAM chip (MB85RC16) (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiLuOfQ0v3-AhUewAIHHdSuDvwQFnoECAgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fujitsu.com%2Fus%2FImages%2FMB85RC16-DS501-00001-8v0-E.pdf&usg=AOvVaw08SQbZ-iLoH7RvNRBXpC_j).
Yes it is. Looks like Rigol has a huge stock of that parts, as exactly the same part can be found on the DS1054Z PCB. So the hardware is there. Let's hope the NAND Flash is indeed saved from all frequent writes.

By the way, the DGs are a Linux based designs, so in theory, the number of available spare blocks and other related statistics can be read by a command via the debug console
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mr Smile on September 04, 2023, 02:52:43 am
There is a new version of firmware on the Chinese page https://www.rigol.com/products/detail/DS1000Z (https://www.rigol.com/products/detail/DS1000Z) it has a date 2023-04-10
Inside in readme file, there are two dates:

[Supported Model]    All the MSO/DS1000Z Series Digital Oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date]   2022/03/25

[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.05.02.04  2023/02/28
     -Added new nandflash driver and original nandflash compatibility

There is again a new firmware on the Chinese Rigol website.
But I'm a bit confused as the version number didn't change - neither in the release notes nor in the header of the GEL-file.  :palm:
Release notes say "-Added startup exception reminder" and the GEL-file is ~0.7MB larger than the previous one.

Don't want to be the first to blow his scope.  :scared:
Any volunteers?
 :popcorn:

Code: [Select]
[Supported Model]    All the MSO/DS1000Z Series Digital Oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date]   2022/03/25

[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.05.02.04  2023/05/16
     -Added startup exception reminder

[History]
--------------------
v00.04.05.02.04  2023/02/28
     -Added new nandflash driver and original nandflash compatibility

[...]
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 04, 2023, 07:02:25 am
From the changes log, that firmware doesn't fix any bugs, and doesn't add extra features for the already existing scopes.  Looks like it is for the newer scopes that will be fabricated with a different type of NAND chip.

Probably won't brick the old models, but won't help them either, so I see no reason to upgrade.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Mr Smile on September 04, 2023, 09:33:04 am
The nand flash entry came with the February update and I agree, that this might not be of interest for older scopes.
But the "startup exception reminder" from May could be useful.
I ask myself:
- Why the heck two updates with the same number?
- What does a "startup exception reminder" do, that needs 14% more firmware space?
- Will it blend brick?
 ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 04, 2023, 09:47:43 am
- What does a "startup exception reminder" do, that needs 14% more firmware space?

I don't know either, but a name like "startup exception reminder" doesn't promise anything good, that's for sure.  ;D
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: bitwelder on September 06, 2023, 08:37:28 am
- Why the heck two updates with the same number?
Poor version control management? (i.e. get current source, patch it, recompile and release - forgetting to increase the version counter)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shock on September 13, 2023, 11:50:19 am
Can someone please share the direct file urls to the last few firmware revisions? One the chinese site would be great as well. My browser hates their login page and popup.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on September 13, 2023, 02:07:50 pm
Rigol firmware is available on Rigol North America:
   https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/ (https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/)

Rigol only has the latest firmware versions available.
Besides, the DS1000Z will NOT load older firmware versions unless you jump through hoops (IIRC the procedure is earlier in this thread).

Note:   DO NOT confuse the DS1000Z with the two channel DS1000Z-E.
The firmware is not compatible.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shock on September 13, 2023, 02:27:12 pm
So nothing later than - 00.04.05.02.00  2021/07/24?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mqsaharan on September 13, 2023, 02:54:24 pm
Hi Shock,
The attached file is from the following link:
https://supportcn.rigol.com/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/ftp/Firmware/DS1000Z(ARM)Updatev00.04.05.02.04.zip
This is the latest file at Rigol Chinese website as mentioned in Reply#4732 by PawelW.
Please don't just look at the firmware version, take a look at the release notes inside this zip, too.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on September 13, 2023, 03:13:07 pm
...This is the latest file at Rigol Chinese website as mentioned in Reply#4732 by PawelW....

Actually, it isn't.
It is the one that is mentioned by Mr Smile in Reply#4750 (same version number, new content).

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Njk on September 13, 2023, 04:09:08 pm
The nand flash entry came with the February update and I agree, that this might not be of interest for older scopes.
But the "startup exception reminder" from May could be useful.
I ask myself:
- Why the heck two updates with the same number?
- What does a "startup exception reminder" do, that needs 14% more firmware space?
- Will it blend brick?
 ;D
With the conventional version numbering scheme, changed rightmost number means a minor maintenance update, e.g. because of new parts type. But it seems Rigol uses the numbering in a more creative way. Let's hope the space usage is increased because the code was compiled in a bit different way so now it's of greater size but runs faster. Besides, there can be a UI differences. For instance, v.00.04.05.02.03 can be differentiated from v.00.04.05.02.02 by additional items in the left-side menu (see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-buglist-continued-(from-fw-00-04-04-03-02)/msg4855160/#msg4855160 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-buglist-continued-(from-fw-00-04-04-03-02)/msg4855160/#msg4855160)). There are two new items indeed. So the only way to find out what's actually new in the 00.04.05.04.04 is to install it.

Edit: at least, the recent events means the thing is not completely abandoned and some one there is still working on it
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shock on September 14, 2023, 01:58:06 am
Thanks MarkF and mqsaharan.

Must have been doing a backup or something, I tried again and could download these so far at the time of posting (subject to change). I confirmed the GEL as well as the file date makes sense.

00.04.05.02.04  2023/05/16 GEL
https://supportcn.rigol.com/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/ftp/Firmware/DS1000Z(ARM)Updatev00.04.05.02.04.zip (https://supportcn.rigol.com/Public/Uploads/uploadfile/files/ftp/Firmware/DS1000Z(ARM)Updatev00.04.05.02.04.zip)

00.04.05.02.02 2021/09/22 GEL (Release notes inaccurate/not updated)
https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/ (https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/)
https://www.rigol.com/products/detail/DS1000Z (https://www.rigol.com/products/detail/DS1000Z)

00.04.05.02.02 2021-10-14 corrupt file?
00.04.04.04.03 2019-08-29 GEL (old)
https://www.rigol.eu/SUPPORTS/software-firmware-download_5.html (https://www.rigol.eu/SUPPORTS/software-firmware-download_5.html)

00.04.05.02.02 2021-10-14 corrupt file?
https://www.rigol.eu/products/oscillosopes/ds1000zds1000z.html (https://www.rigol.eu/products/oscillosopes/ds1000zds1000z.html)

If anyone has other versions from Rigol they can link, please do so.
00.04.05.02.01
00.04.05.02.03
00.04.05.02.04 (apparent second version)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on September 14, 2023, 09:30:05 am
Are you collecting firmware???

Here is a list of all the versions I have.
Rigol's releases did not consecutive numbers AFAIK.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 14, 2023, 09:32:59 am
If anyone has other versions from Rigol they can link, please do so.

Almost all former versions were already attached, or at least linked, somewhere in this topic.
What for do you need them?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shock on September 14, 2023, 10:30:37 am
Update the firmware of my choice, that ok with you?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on September 14, 2023, 11:45:01 am
Update the firmware of my choice, that ok with you?

Like I said earlier, you can not update the scope to an older firmware version.

If I understand the procedure correctly, you modify an older version into a minor minor newer version than you currently have installed.  Therefore, tricking the scope into thinking it's a newer version but it's really not.  You can see if you do this a lot you might surpass the next update from Rigol.  Maybe someone here can confirm this.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: MarkF on September 14, 2023, 11:52:22 am
Personally, I run the latest firmware from the Rigol North America site and don't fool with these strange versions on the China site.  It almost seems like the latest few on the China site are really 'release candidates' that have not been flushed out yet.  IMHO, I believe the North America firmware is slightly slower to get updated but it's a more stable version.

But, you're free to experiment all you want.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2023, 12:18:15 pm
... tricking the scope into thinking it's a newer version but it's really not.  You can see if you do this a lot you might surpass the next update from Rigol.

But if you've had practice it will be easy to modify the new version, too.  :)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 14, 2023, 02:50:17 pm
Update the firmware of my choice, that ok with you?

You care if I'm OK with that?  That would have been nice.  :)
Though it sounded like you were aggressive for no reason.

I was hoping you were making some reverse engineering, and looking for something in particular, something you were hoping might be found in the past versions, that's why I've asked what for do you need them.



can not update the scope to an older firmware version

It is possible to downgrade, or to load arbitrary FW version.  Did that once, only to realize the previous FW version that I thought it was better has heaving the same behavior, so reverted back to the latest firmware.

In order to downgrade, you'll have to make a Rigol-signed disk, it is attached in this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3613778/#msg3613778 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg3613778/#msg3613778)

How to make one, then how to use the attached "Rigol_sign_disk.zip" (in order to make the oscilloscope to accept any arbitrary firmware version) is at the very end of that link, posted as code.  That disk will spare you of manually editing the version, and/or to recalculate the checksums of the .gel file.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Shock on September 16, 2023, 04:06:43 am
You care if I'm OK with that?  That would have been nice.  :)
Though it sounded like you were aggressive for no reason.

I was hoping you were making some reverse engineering, and looking for something in particular, something you were hoping might be found in the past versions, that's why I've asked what for do you need them.

Nope, just wanted the latest few firmware urls.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Njk on September 16, 2023, 11:18:43 am
Personally, I run the latest firmware from the Rigol North America site and don't fool with these strange versions on the China site.  It almost seems like the latest few on the China site are really 'release candidates' that have not been flushed out yet.  IMHO, I believe the North America firmware is slightly slower to get updated but it's a more stable version.
Yes but it seems currently the units are shipped from the factory with a more recent firmware. For that units, the "stable" version may be unsuitable. So there is a mechanism that prevents downgrading. Of course, if one is curious and determined enough, he can find a way to bypass it, to invoke more trouble on himself. OTOH, the latest China versions actually incorporate a new feature, which is related to "one-key measurement of 37 parameters". They finally replaced the Variation nonsense with something more useful (AC.Vrms). It's not possible to enjoy it with the versions from the NA and EU web sites.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on September 16, 2023, 11:41:34 am
Mine (with FW v00.04.05.SP2) has on the left side of the screen a button for 'Vrms' and one for 'Variance', but no 'AC.Vrms'.

What is 'AC.Vrms', or what's the difference between 'Vrms' and 'AC.Vrms'?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Njk on September 16, 2023, 12:01:54 pm
Vrms takes into account AC+DC voltages. AC.Vrms ignores DC offset. The help info is also updated accordingly.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: iMo on September 16, 2023, 12:40:32 pm
That is a good fix, as the older version of Vrms does Vrms with the DC offset calculated in. Now the AC.Vrms (with DC coupling and DC offset) perhaps calculates the stddev basically.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Njk on September 16, 2023, 01:32:36 pm
AC.Vrms seems working properly. Stddev is what was previously named Variance (according to its definition by the equation 6-4 in the manual. That is hinted by the tiny D letter in its icon). It's not a measured value, it's a meta data that can be displayed in the statistical information for every item. That's why it was weird to see a dedicated icon for stddev. Now it's actually removed.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Pierre_Montreal on October 07, 2023, 10:30:26 pm
I have the DS1054z Software version: 00.04.05.SP2

and I am able to clear these grayed measurements  by changing the font size ! It seems that when the scope change the font size it clear the measurements and it the redraw them. Try it.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on October 24, 2023, 10:21:50 pm
There is again a new SW version available on the Chinese website: v00.04.05.02.08

[Supported Model]    All the MSO/DS1000Z Series Digital Oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date]  2023/07/6

[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.05.02.08  2023/08/21
    -made some optimizations.

[History]
--------------------
v00.04.05.02.07  2023/07/06
     -Optimized the startup problem of the previous version

v00.04.05.02.06  2023/06/30
     -Solve the problem that some machines cannot be started after being left for a long time

v00.04.05.02.05  2023/05/29
     -Added new nandflash driver and original nandflash compatibility


Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on October 25, 2023, 04:25:32 pm
They have a bug as big as a barn when the scope is on a certain time base at a certain memory depth, and instead of fixing it... They make "some" optimizations.

SMH.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on October 25, 2023, 05:20:11 pm
They have a bug as big as a barn when the scope is on a certain time base at a certain memory depth

Could you describe the bug conditions in more detail or point me to the relevant forum discussion? I have not encountered it myself and haven't come across it on the forum -- but have not been following the DS1054Z discussions closely for years. Thanks!
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 25, 2023, 06:32:12 pm


Rigol 1054z and 1074z timing problems at 500ms timescale and 24M memory depth
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-1054z-and-1074z-timing-problems-at-500ms-timescale-and-24m-memory-depth/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-1054z-and-1074z-timing-problems-at-500ms-timescale-and-24m-memory-depth/)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 25, 2023, 06:35:50 pm
rob040, Can you share the download link from the latest firmware update?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: ebastler on October 25, 2023, 07:08:03 pm
Rigol 1054z and 1074z timing problems at 500ms timescale and 24M memory depth
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-1054z-and-1074z-timing-problems-at-500ms-timescale-and-24m-memory-depth/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-1054z-and-1074z-timing-problems-at-500ms-timescale-and-24m-memory-depth/)

Ah, thanks. Indeed, my scope does that too, running firmware 04.05. (The most recent one released internationally, I believe.)

Seems like a small barn to me, on a road rarely travelled... But on the other hand it should not be that difficult to fix, so I understand Sredni's annoyance.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on October 25, 2023, 07:16:22 pm
rob040, Can you share the download link from the latest firmware update?
www.rigol.com/products/detail/DS1000Z (http://www.rigol.com/products/detail/DS1000Z)
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 25, 2023, 08:22:18 pm
At some point I sent an email to Rigol with that problem, they replied that the problem was solved, then I sent them an image of the installed firmware version and a video with the error, they never responded to me.

in spanish
yo en algun momento les envie un mail a rigol con ese problema , me contestaron que ese problema estaba solucionado, luego les envie imagen de la version firmware instalado y un video con el error, nunca me contestaron.

Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 25, 2023, 08:43:53 pm
We are going to have to install it and add some new functionality, in the menus or something else.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Sredni on October 25, 2023, 10:22:04 pm


Seems like a small barn to me, on a road rarely travelled... But on the other hand it should not be that difficult to fix, so I understand Sredni's annoyance.

Well, yes one does not always operate at that set of specific settings, but since the bug is there it is necessary to remember to avoid that combination.

We also don't know for sure that it happens only in those conditions. One thing is an inaccurate instrument, a completely different matter is a tool that gives absurdly wrong values out of the blue.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 26, 2023, 04:36:51 pm
Hello friends, I wanted to see if there were improvements, so I downloaded the new version of the Rigol DS1000z firmware v00.04.05.02.08, I formatted a 4GB pen in fat 32, I inserted it into the oscilloscope's USB, it detected the new version and did all the installation process, it asks me to restart and when it restarts it continues with the same version, I tried three different pen and everything is the same, it does not install.

in spanish
hola amigos, queria ver si habia mejoras, asi que descargue la nueva version del firmware de rigol ds1000z  v00.04.05.02.08, formatee un pen 4gb en fat 32, lo introduzco en el usb del osciloscopio, este detecta la nueva version hace todo el proceso de instalacion, me pide que reinicie y cuando reinicia sigue con la misma version, probe con  tres pen distintos y todo igual, no instala.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Karel on October 26, 2023, 05:27:46 pm
At some point I sent an email to Rigol with that problem, they replied that the problem was solved, then I sent them an image of the installed firmware version and a video with the error, they never responded to me.

No surprise. They only fix bugs that doesn't require too much effort.
I guess some bugs cannot be fixed because of hardware limitations.
Then there's also the eternal USB bug (they use a mix of High Speed and Full Speed USB 2.0 protocol
that causes a timeout on Linux).
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 26, 2023, 10:44:37 pm
Could it be that this version of firmware is not compatible with DS1000z that are more than four years old? |O
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: RoGeorge on October 27, 2023, 06:03:51 am
Have you read the entire version string, or just the major few numbers that are shown by default?

To read the detailed version, under the trigger level knob, press fast
'MENU' -> 'MENU' -> 'FORCE' -> 'MENU', then press normally
'Utility' ->  'System' -> 'System Info'

What version is displayed now on your oscilloscope's screen?
Does it show the build date?  What is the software build date?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 27, 2023, 06:29:03 pm
Have you read the entire version string, or just the major few numbers that are shown by default?

To read the detailed version, under the trigger level knob, press fast
'MENU' -> 'MENU' -> 'FORCE' -> 'MENU', then press normally
'Utility' ->  'System' -> 'System Info'

What version is displayed now on your oscilloscope's screen?
Does it show the build date?  What is the software build date?

Yes, I already did that and it still shows me the version I had, it doesn't install the new one, I also thought it was just that the number had not been changed, but I checked the menus and other things to see if there were any changes.

spanish
si ya hice eso y me sigue mostrando la version que tenia, no instala la nueva, ademas pense que era solo que no se habia modificado el numero, pero revise menues y troas cosas para ver si habia algun cambio.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: mqsaharan on October 28, 2023, 04:31:59 am
The latest firmware was installed on my DS1054Z without any problem. I purchased mine back in 2016.

I guess when Rigol hire new interns, they give them the bug list of these old scopes to work on. Perhaps that is why we are still seeing new updates with small fixes.
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 28, 2023, 05:36:12 pm
After a lot of struggle it was updated, they added an option or rather changed the vertical menu now it is AC vrms, but it has a button left with option 3, which when you press it is period, but well it can't always be perfect

in spanish
después de mucho batallar se actualizo, agragaron una opcion o mas bien cambiaron en el menu vertical ahora es AC vrms, pero le quedo un boton con la opcion 3, que cuando uno lo preciona es periodo, pero bueno no siempre puede ser perfecto
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: rob040 on October 28, 2023, 06:05:04 pm
@Adrian_Arg.: The AC Vrms was already implemented one update earlier, see the posts from mid-September.
But what caused the struggle to update your ‘scope?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 28, 2023, 11:02:29 pm
@Adrian_Arg.: The AC Vrms was already implemented one update earlier, see the posts from mid-September.
But was caused the struggle to update your ‘scope?

I used a 1 GB pen and it worked, the strange thing is that it doesn't record images now

PD  The solution is with some pendrives, so I already marked the crafty ones
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: madires on October 29, 2023, 12:57:53 pm
2GB limit?
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: Adrian_Arg. on October 29, 2023, 02:35:01 pm
2GB limit?

I am now using a Kingston pendrive of 16GB (14.8) capacity formatted to fat 32, and it works perfectly, it must be about 10 years old, it is one of the first of that capacity that I bought

in spanish
yo ahora estoy usando un pendrive kingston de 16gb(14.8) de capacidad formateado a fat 32, y funciona perfecto,  debe tener como 10 años es de los primeros de esa capacidad que compre


https://imagefullhost.com/images/2023/10/29/pendrive.jpeg
Title: Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
Post by: perieanuo on October 30, 2023, 06:15:38 am
This also works, I struggle with my coworkers to tell them they don't need to deal with usb sticks or anything and use ethernet, galvanic isolation does miracles;