Author Topic: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope  (Read 2043038 times)

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Offline xrunner

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3425 on: March 25, 2017, 12:07:25 pm »
Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope... but who remember playing with those complicated Chinese puzzle boxes as kids.

Bwahahaha!  :-DD

Yea, you can turn off the measurements, but you gotta read the manual and, well, play with your little Chinese puzzle box a little. Just think of it as a fun little game until you solve the puzzle. What other scope gives you that much fun for $400?  :clap:
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Offline _Wim_

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3426 on: March 25, 2017, 04:54:50 pm »
Some of these responses puzzle me. I have no trouble displaying just the measurements I want to show, turning others off, adding new ones or displaying old, previously turned off measurements. Of course I actually use the scope every day to make measurements (however quirky or wrong or misspelled they may turn out to be) so I am very familiar with how the system operates. It appears that some people weren't even aware of the "Select Item" list or haven't used it very much. I suggest playing around with this feature a bit; eventually it will "sink in" and you'll be able to use it to display what you want, without being troubled by the "greyed out, inactive but displayed anyway" problem. Use the "Select Item" list to remove undesired greyed-out items from the screen display.

Perhaps it may help to think of the measurement display as a sort of list buffer that holds the last five that you have selected and allows you to turn on or off any of those using the "Select Item" list. When you want to add a sixth one, it goes in the fifth place and pushes the rest down one position, and the old "first" one is gone. It gets slightly more complicated when you have Large or ExtraLarge fonts selected since only three or two of the five can be displayed at one time, or if you insist on displaying your chosen measurements in some particular order.

Quote
This means when you want to add a measurement that is already displayed as invisible measure "4" or "5", the scope says "measurement already added". The only way to display that measure, is first to add 2 more other measurements that you do not need, and then select the one you need again...
No, that's not right either, if I am understanding you correctly. You just need to use the "Select Item" list to turn off one of the measurements of the three that are displayed, then you can turn on the one you need again.

Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope... but who remember playing with those complicated Chinese puzzle boxes as kids.

But what did you expect, it's only 400 dollars.   :horse:     Shouldn't you be happy that it even "pretends" to do measurements at all?   :palm:

I will try the way you suggest, never tried that before, thanks for the tip.

Please don't get me wrong, I really like this scope and its extremely good value for money, but just wanted to point out the measurements could be a bit more user friendly (the select item list I did not use so far). I wanted to point this out because maybe some Rigol programmer wouldread this, and they might update this in the next firmware release. For me it was in no way meant as a bashing of Rigol.
 
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3427 on: March 25, 2017, 05:29:07 pm »
I have no trouble displaying just the measurements I want to show, turning others off, adding new ones or displaying old, previously turned off measurements. Of course I actually use the scope every day to make measurements (however quirky or wrong or misspelled they may turn out to be) so I am very familiar with how the system operates. It appears that some people weren't even aware of the "Select Item" list or haven't used it very much.

When I first got my scope a couple years ago, there was only the Clear menu where you could supposedly delete individual items or all. There, deleting just grayed it out. It did not remove it from the screen. So, I stopped using that menu since it wasn't useful to me. Instead, I just treated the display as a de-duplicating, broken buffer. When I wanted different items displayed, I just pushed five new measurements into the buffer to fill it with what I wanted to see, even if that meant that not all five were ones that I needed.

So, I never noticed when the Sel.Item menu was added.

Quote
Perhaps it may help to think of the measurement display as a sort of list buffer that holds the last five that you have selected and allows you to turn on or off any of those using the "Select Item" list. When you want to add a sixth one, it goes in the fifth place and pushes the rest down one position, and the old "first" one is gone. It gets slightly more complicated when you have Large or ExtraLarge fonts selected since only three or two of the five can be displayed at one time, or if you insist on displaying your chosen measurements in some particular order.

Unfortunately, it's a rather broken system because deleting an item doesn't delete it, it grays it out. Deselecting an item hides it, but unless it's the left-most item it'll come back when you add new measurements.

Try this:

1. Add five measurements to the display. I currently have Period, Freq, +Width, Max, and Min.

2. From the Sel.Item menu, deselect items 3 (+Width) and 4 (Max). You should now only see Period, Freq, and Min, which looks nice, but don't get happy yet.

3. Add a new measurement. I'll add Vpp.

Now, I have on my screen Freq, +Width, Max, Min, and  Vpp.

Period is gone. I didn't deselect it. However, it got pushed out even though two other measurements were deselected to make room for the new measurement. Deselecting is not deleting. Deselected items can't be seen but still occupy space.

+Width and Max are back. I did not re-select them. They reappeared simply by adding a new measurement. :palm:

4. Now let's use delete. In the Clear menu, delete Max. It'll be grayed out as if it's deselected.

5. Add Vtop. Now we have Freq, +Width, Min, Vpp and Vtop. Now Max really got deleted.

Thus, delete grays out items as though they're deselected instead of removing them from the screen, but then deletes them when adding new ones. Deselect hides measurements so that they look like they're deleted, but then restores them when adding new measurements. :palm:

Quote
Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope...

Yes, that is how it seems.

Quote
But what did you expect, it's only 400 dollars.   :horse:     Shouldn't you be happy that it even "pretends" to do measurements at all?   :palm:

Hehe. Yes.  :horse: We've all become adept at it. I got a bit too happy last night when it seemed to be fixed.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 05:31:10 pm by bitseeker »
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Offline Sredni

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3428 on: March 25, 2017, 05:36:23 pm »
Now, warranty expired yesterday so paranoia is kicking in...

Why can't I make it accept the number of averages by clicking the rotary encoder?

Turn on the scope, wait for trace to appear.
Go to the Acquire menu, push top button (Mode) and select "Average" with the rotary selection knob .
When you press the selecting knob the item is memorized.

"Averages" item lights up and says "2".
By turning the little selection knob I can choose any power of 2 I want but...
If I press the rotary knob to confirm it, I get "Parameter Limited!" and number of averages goes back to "2".

If I press the blue button next to the Averages item, though, the number of averages I select is accepted.

Has it always been this way?
Why this inconsistency in the UI?

P.S.
Also, a curiosity is my DS1054z the only one to have UV measles?
I looked at it with an UV torch: it's full of tiny yellow phosphorescent dots! Hope it's not catchy.

EDIT: some typos - not all, of course.
EDIT: attached image
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 11:02:03 pm by Sredni »
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3429 on: March 25, 2017, 05:40:54 pm »
Has it always been this way?

I'm not sure, but it wouldn't be surprising if it was.

Quote
Why this inconsistency in the UI?

It's not the only inconsistency. Although Rigol isn't Apple, you'll still have to get used to doing it their way. >:D

Quote
P.S.
Also, a curiosity is my DS1054z the only one to have UV measles?
I looked at it with an UV torch: it's full of tiny yellow phosphorescent dots! Hope it's not catchy.

LOL! That's a new one! Can you take a photo?
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Offline jjoonathan

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3430 on: March 25, 2017, 06:08:23 pm »
No UV measles on my DS4014, but it's 4 years old, so almost certainly a different batch of plastic.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3431 on: March 25, 2017, 06:22:48 pm »
Now, warranty expired yesterday so paranoia is kicking in...

Why can't I make it accept the number of averages by clicking the rotary encoder?

Turn on the scope, wait for trace to appear.
Go to the Acquire menu, push top button (Mode) and select "Average" with the rotary selection knob .
When you press the selecting knob the item is memorized.

"Averages" item lights up and says "2".
By turning the little selection knob I can choose any power of 2 I want but...
If I press the rotary knob to confirm it, I get "Parameter Limited!" and number of averages goes back to "2".

If I press the blue button next to the Averages item, though, the number of averages I select is accepted.

Has it always been this way?
Why this inconsistency in the UI?

Actually, the number of Averages is "live", that is, whatever number you select with the multifunction knob is instantly implemented, you don't need to do anything else. Pressing the blue menu button in this case does nothing at all, your Averages number is already implemented just by selecting the number with the multifunction knob. Pressing on the  knob resets the Averages to the "baseline" or default which is 2. This IS consistent with the behaviour of the other  knobs, which when pressed generally reset the corresponding function to "baseline", zero, centered, default, etc.

Yes, it has always been that way, as far as I am aware.

If your scope _doesn't_ automatically change the number of Averages simply by turning the knob, then there is something wrong somewhere.

Quote

P.S.
Also, a curiosity is my DS1054z the only one to have UV measles?
I looked at it with an UV torch: it's full of tiny yellow phosphorescent dots! Hope it's not catchy.

EDIT: some typos - not all, of course.

Nope, no UV measles here. Are you sure you're not just seeing dust particles?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 06:25:45 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline Sredni

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3432 on: March 25, 2017, 06:52:36 pm »
Thanks for confirming the UI behavior.
EDIT: for Nikola Tesla's anagram - Yep now that you mention it, it makes sense to be that way: if the options appear on a list, then you can either select one by pressing the button or scrolling with the rotary knob. It the option is a value to set, then the knob selects the value and the button confirms it - while pressing the knob reset to default.

As for the measles, I'll posted a picture tomorrow.
Unfortunately it's not dust particles. They are firmly embedded in the plastic, and I am beginning to suspect my cat (don't ask  :palm: ). What is strange is the tiny dimension of the er... yellow dots.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 11:45:49 pm by Sredni »
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Offline Bzzz

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3433 on: March 25, 2017, 08:17:03 pm »
Also, a curiosity is my DS1054z the only one to have UV measles?
I looked at it with an UV torch: it's full of tiny yellow phosphorescent dots! Hope it's not catchy.

Non here, the channel button markings are lighting up in bright colors and some dust particles are visible, but the case itself is of uniform color.

I assume you had to wait for a very long time to get the unit, and you barely managed to close the door behind you before you started unboxing...maybe it's...jizz?  ;D
 

Offline Sredni

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3434 on: March 25, 2017, 11:07:26 pm »
I assume you had to wait for a very long time to get the unit, and you barely managed to close the door behind you before you started unboxing...maybe it's...jizz?  ;D

Germans... You have the weirdest porn on the Web.
Not that I have ever seen it, of course. A friend told me.

(Just kidding, man - I paraphrased a comment made by Stan Marsch on German Porn)  :o

I uploaded a picture. I probably need to apologize to my cat. The drops are too small. Maybe it's that Oust deodorant I sprayed in the room when one of those stinky bugs decided to immolate itself on a 200W alogen lamp.
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3435 on: March 26, 2017, 01:31:55 am »
I uploaded a picture. I probably need to apologize to my cat. The drops are too small. Maybe it's that Oust deodorant I sprayed in the room when one of those stinky bugs decided to immolate itself on a 200W alogen lamp.

That's a weird case alright. Looks rather wintery. Maybe try the spray on a know-clean piece of paper or fabric to confirm your suspicion. I'd be curious to know what it is.
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Offline technogeeky

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3436 on: March 26, 2017, 02:07:20 am »
Man it seems like it's been one and a half forevers since Rigol was supposed to release a new firmware.
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3437 on: March 26, 2017, 02:16:10 am »
It's kind of like watching water boil and grass grow. Try not to think about it. Imagine that there will never be another update. Then, if there is one, wait a while longer to see if it actually makes things better. New firmware can be hazardous or have undesirable side effects.
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Offline xrunner

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3438 on: March 26, 2017, 02:20:43 am »
It's another Rigol platform, but I've been waiting over a year since reporting that the .jpg screen print file on the DSA 815TG is always upside down. Even after a firmware update since then, it's still that way.

Don't hold your breath people ...  :-//
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3439 on: March 26, 2017, 02:54:04 am »
Yeah, well since even a spelling error still can't get fixed... :-// :horse:

Anyway, make the most of what you have. If it improves at some point, great. Just don't count on it.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program: 4 channels for $400. ;D
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Offline ProBang2

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3440 on: March 26, 2017, 03:39:17 am »
[...]
March 25 2017
I just got my brand new DSO1054 today.
[...]
Firmware is 00.04.04.01  (00.04.04 SP 1)

Obviously: The repealed Version 00.04.01.01 is on delivery.
But still not as update. IIRC because the problems with some older boards. How hard can it be to check the board version in the installer program?

Do anyone know if the coming update version contains something else as the "old board solution"?
(Imagine: The legendary "pluses" error would be corrected...)
Is there something new known?
I´m curious if there will be any advantage in updating the 1054z if it runs already with the software version 00.04.01.01.

BTW: Something known about "LFCal" and "Output" in the expanded SelfCal menue?
Perhaps they are related to the LA and FG option of the 1074z-s?
Or, what are they supposed to do in the 1054z?
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3441 on: March 26, 2017, 04:45:21 am »
I haven't heard about any other fixes. But we could be surprised (for better or worse). It's always an adventure. :-DD
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Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3442 on: March 26, 2017, 10:04:09 am »
Are the yellow dots in a regular pattern?

Maybe it's like those yellow dots that printers add to documents to identify your printer.

 

Online tooki

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3443 on: March 26, 2017, 11:08:54 am »
Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope... but who remember playing with those complicated Chinese puzzle boxes as kids.

But what did you expect, it's only 400 dollars.   :horse:     Shouldn't you be happy that it even "pretends" to do measurements at all?   :palm:

I will try the way you suggest, never tried that before, thanks for the tip.

Please don't get me wrong, I really like this scope and its extremely good value for money, but just wanted to point out the measurements could be a bit more user friendly (the select item list I did not use so far). I wanted to point this out because maybe some Rigol programmer wouldread this, and they might update this in the next firmware release. For me it was in no way meant as a bashing of Rigol.
Yeah, apparently the fact that it's cheap means we forfeit the right to wish the software was better...  :palm: :-DD |O

Sorry, as a former UX professional, it really could use some work, and it's fair game to say so. I'm with you, Wim. The fact that some people here don't find it problematic doesn't mean that it's a good design. Some people have a higher tolerance for bad UX, and that's fine, but they should respect that others are really bothered by the distraction of bad design. (A tool should be transparent, i.e., diseappear into the background, leaving you to focus on the work. The measurements are annoying.)
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3444 on: March 26, 2017, 11:40:34 am »
Quote
The fact that some people here don't find it problematic doesn't mean that it's a good design.

Does the fact that lots of people buy and use the scope happily mean it's a bad design?

Oh, I don't exactly disagree with you.... but.... "you get what you pay for", and sometimes, with Chinese stuff, you get even less.
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Online nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3445 on: March 26, 2017, 11:50:40 am »
Quote
The fact that some people here don't find it problematic doesn't mean that it's a good design.

Does the fact that lots of people buy and use the scope happily mean it's a bad design?
If you are not used to quality you don't know any better. For example: Recently I bought a caliper from a cheap brand because my old caliper (Mitutoyo) had an accident. I used it a couple of times but it just didn't feel right and it also had a lot of play in the jaw so I bought a Mitutoyo.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online tooki

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3446 on: March 26, 2017, 12:10:43 pm »
Quote
The fact that some people here don't find it problematic doesn't mean that it's a good design.
Does the fact that lots of people buy and use the scope happily mean it's a bad design?
The fact that lots of people buy it and use it happily says absolutely nothing about whether it's a good design or not, only that it's not so bad as to be a deal-breaker. People tolerate poor designs all the time, for various reasons (mostly for lack of alternatives, or because it's too expensive to replace something that's already purchased). Only once it goes beyond a particular pain threshold do we take action. That threshold is very individual. (For me, it's low: it's why I can't stand using Windows and Linux, the little tiny usability problems in them drive me nuts. Most people have a higher threshold, and that's fine.)

The fact that many users DO complain about this particular problem, on the other hand, is a decent indicator that it might be a bad design that needs further investigation by a usability professional. As someone with a professional background in usability, I can tell you, it's a bad design. (It's a classic example of the user interface design exposing the underlying programming structure.)

Oh, I don't exactly disagree with you....
You've done nothing but disagree with everyone who complains about this bad UI.

but.... "you get what you pay for", and sometimes, with Chinese stuff, you get even less.
For one, price has little correlation with the quality of usability. Many very expensive products have terrible user interfaces. (For example, the first generation of BMW's iDrive became famous for how terrible a UI it was.) If anything, you often see the opposite, that expensive (i.e. non-mass-market) products have terrible UIs because they're made in such small numbers that the manufacturer can't invest in big UX projects.

Second, and this is the part you seem to have trouble grasping: No, it being cheap DOES NOT mean we give up the right to complain about something that is bad! Moreover, if it were a usability problem that was a constraint of cheaper hardware, we might have more sympathy for it. But it's not, it's a trivial software issue that probably wouldn't cost Rigol more than a few hundred man-hours to write, test, document, and deploy. At Chinese wages and with the volume they're shipping, this isn't too much to ask.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3447 on: March 26, 2017, 12:17:43 pm »
Well, I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not I am used to quality. But correct me if I am wrong: the OSCILLOSCOPE we are discussing here is made and marketed and sold and bought as a beginner's, low-end, DSO. Many people who have bought this scope have little or no experience at all with DSOs or CROs, "quality" or otherwise, and are even somewhat overawed by the DS1054z. This clearly does not apply to you, nor does it apply to me. I have a great deal of experience using _my employer's_ high end Tek and LeCroy oscilloscopes, and if I had the money to buy one myself, I wouldn't be using the Rigol. But not everyone has the luxury to be able to buy Mitsutoyo calipers, Snap-On wrenches, or LeCroy oscilloscopes-- yet somehow they get the necessary jobs done with lesser, much cheaper tools. If you don't like the Rigol's look and feel, then by all means don't use it, go buy a LeCroy. The last LeCroy I used ran its scope application on a Windows OS, and you could even surf the net, check your email and watch YouTube videos on it. The one before that blew a channel and the service department wanted 3,000 dollars CDN to fix it. Does this mean that a beginner shouldn't buy and happily use a Rigol DS1054z? I don't think so.

By the way, I have a cheap Harbor Freight digital caliper that is every bit as accurate and easy to use as the high-end Mitsutoyo caliper it replaces. If I drop it... I'm out 15 dollars. If I drop the Mitsutoyo.... well, I have to give up eating lunch for a couple of months to pay for it.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 12:22:21 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3448 on: March 26, 2017, 12:21:36 pm »
Quote
You've done nothing but disagree with everyone who complains about this bad UI.

Wrong again. Look back at my posts in this thread.

You even quoted me yourself:

Quote
Sure, the Rigol software often appears to be a set of "kludges" that were cobbled together by a committee of junior programmers who have never actually used an oscilloscope... but who remember playing with those complicated Chinese puzzle boxes as kids.

What I -have- done is explain how many of the problems people have reported are user-related, often due to not RTFM or not understanding how a particular control actually works.

Funny... I am often criticised by certain individuals as being a Rigol-basher, and now I'm accused of being a fanboy. Make up your minds, people! If you don't like the scope, DON'T USE IT -- unless of course you absolutely need to use a scope and it's the only one handy --- or affordable. And by all means... RTFM !!!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 12:24:37 pm by alsetalokin4017 »
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Offline xrunner

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #3449 on: March 26, 2017, 12:43:37 pm »
The fact that lots of people buy it and use it happily says absolutely nothing about whether it's a good design or not, only that it's not so bad as to be a deal-breaker. People tolerate poor designs all the time, for various reasons (mostly for lack of alternatives, or because it's too expensive to replace something that's already purchased). Only once it goes beyond a particular pain threshold do we take action. That threshold is very individual. (For me, it's low: it's why I can't stand using Windows and Linux, the little tiny usability problems in them drive me nuts. Most people have a higher threshold, and that's fine.)

Well tooki, here's the way I look at it. I've got one and other than the quirks we all talk about, it's perfectly acceptable for my ham radio/electronics hobby needs and that's what many people use it for. I ain't trying to fix the Superconducting Super Collider with it. I, like alsetalokin4017, have used some of the best test equipment made when I was working (I'm retired now). I know what a piece of total junk is like to work with. This thing is really perfectly acceptable for the price and performance.

The thing is, look at the forum stats. This thread is in the Top Ten forum thread list by relies AND by views. This thread is 139 pages now! If this scope was a total piece of s*** the talk would have long since stopped after a few pages of reviews and replies, and the scope would not be selling like it is. It's a tantalizing situation, in that it's very good for the price, and what a lot of people think is how a few more hours of work by Rigol on the thing would make it better, but they don't seem to want to go that last mile, for whatever reason. OK, well, they probably think that since it's selling so well and recommended so much, why do it. I don't know - I don't run the company. But again, the thing is it's so good for the price it's been examined down to a gnat's ass and that's what all the posts are about - people using it for all sorts of tasks and exposing the last few irritating bugs.

But what do I know?  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 12:53:19 pm by xrunner »
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
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