New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope

[borjam]

Is there no bean-counter from another company watching those numbers? The Rigol is 2+ years old now so it must be possible to build something cheaper using more integrated chips, etc.

The same bean counters who decided to outsource oscilloscope manufacturing in the first place, and teaching several Chinese manufacturers to make oscilloscopes as a result

[EEVblog]

It certainly wouldn't silence the haters. They'd just find something else about it to bash.
We've seen it in this thread a hundred times - every time a bug is fixed the Rigol-haters instantly just move on to something else. Not enough bugs left? Lets moan about the UI instead. 
Would they really prefer a world with no $400, 4-channel, 100MHz oscilloscopes in it? Where oscilloscopes are all perfect but start at $5000?

It should be noted that Rigol practically created and pioneered the low cost scope market.
That should at least confer them some respect.
I have not visited this thread in a long time, and I'm amazed. Such hate for an entry level $400 scope, and the company behind it is embarrassing to read. 

[Fungus]

I wonder how many of the "complainers" bought their scopes, as I did, because of our kind host's rave reviews, and then found out about the various bugs and UI problems, which weren't mentioned at all in his reviews.

If I found any bugs I would have shown them and mention them.
How can a reviewer possibly be expected the test every combination and permutation of every feature to find every bug? That's a totally unrealistic expectation.

Yep. Most of the DS1054Z bugs took months to appear here because people simply didn't find them in normal use.

The DS1054Z "jitter" bug you made a video on needed a very particular frequency and the trigger position to be offset horizontally by a large amount. There's way a reviewer could be expected to find that in a couple of days.

[EEVblog]

Is there no bean-counter from another company watching those numbers? The Rigol is 2+ years old now so it must be possible to build something cheaper using more integrated chips, etc.

The new Siglent 1000X-E will be cheaper than the 1054Z, albeit only two channels, but superior in some other ways.

[Fungus]

I have not visited this thread in a long time, and I'm amazed. Such hate for an entry level $400 scope, and the company behind it is embarrassing to read. 

You haven't felt the hate directed towards anybody who tries to defend it.

I think mine's great. It ticks all the right boxes for what I want from a hobby 'scope.

Do you think any of this month's newcomers is going to unseat it, eg. the Keysight in your latest video? (Is pricing still secret for that one?)

[Fungus]

The new Siglent 1000X-E will be cheaper than the 1054Z, albeit only two channels.

I haven't memorized the exact specs of that model, but if the External trigger can be used as a third digital channel then it might not matter.

If I were Keysight I'd be advertising that as a "2+1 channel" oscilloscope or something.

I work a lot with Arduinos and digital stuff so the extra channel seems like a really big deal to me, I'd make a lot of noise about it. 



Still, if it's not hackable and all the options are expensive then I dunno. With a DS1054Z you can have everything with a simple keygen.

[MrW0lf]

I have not visited this thread in a long time, and I'm amazed. Such hate for an entry level $400 scope, and the company behind it is embarrassing to read. 

"Hate" is direct result of "hype". Do not be so sure all "haters" actually care so much. It just sort of reflection if you will... Had to come sooner or later.
But overall situation on the forum has much improved IMHO, less hype, lots of new scopes on the scene It's important to keep it that way.

[EEVblog]

I have not visited this thread in a long time, and I'm amazed. Such hate for an entry level $400 scope, and the company behind it is embarrassing to read. 

You haven't felt the hate directed towards anybody who tries to defend it.
I think mine's great. It ticks all the right boxes for what I want from a hobby 'scope.

Mine works fine every time I use it too.
Not perfect, and I've said many times I'm not a fan of the UI, but it works, and there is nothing that makes me want to throw it across the room, except maybe the dicky selection knob press.

Do you think any of this month's newcomers is going to unseat it, eg. the Keysight in your latest video? (Is pricing still secret for that one?)

The Keysight doesn't, no. Unless it gets fully hacked, then maybe. But it's still more expensive either way, so not a fair comparison. A vastly more friendly scope to use, so those bitching about the Rigol UI should just sell it and shell out a few more bucks and buy a Keysight.
Rigol isn't going to radially change their whole UI because some people on a forum are bitching about it.

The new Siglent is cheaper than the Rigol, but you give up two channels. It's faster and more responsive (not hugely), more bandwidth, vastly more powerful FFT, and you get everything as standard, no need to hack it. It's UI has it's quirks too. I think there is another thread somewhere about people bitching about the current Siglent 1000X bugs and UI?

For everyday general use I would pick the Keysight without question, it just works the nicest.
If every dollar counted, the Siglent.
If I could only have one scope in the lab, probably the Rigol purely because of the 4 channels.

I forgot the GW Instek, it's a player too.

[EEVblog]

The new Siglent 1000X-E will be cheaper than the 1054Z, albeit only two channels.

I haven't memorized the exact specs of that model, but if the External trigger can be used as a third digital channel then it might not matter.

It can't. I mention that in my latest repair video which uses the 1000X-E

[sainter]

I bought DS1054Z for hobby use, because I could not spent any more money for my joy alone. If I would need a scope for day to day bread earning, I would invest more, into a better and faster scope.

But all in all, if not the low cost of this entry, hobby scope I wouldn't have a DSO now. And seeing people, who should get a strong kit together (investing in there business), but instead buy hobby gear and then bitch about it... starting to thing ranting is their hobby.

[Fungus]

so those bitching about the Rigol UI should just sell it and shell out a few more bucks and buy a Keysight.

Fingers crossed. 

If I could only have one scope in the lab, probably the Rigol purely because of the 4 channels.

QFT.

I forgot the GW Instek, it's a player too.

If you must have a really quiet 'scope, better vertical position movement or a better FFT then yes, it's a player.

OTOH you get half the bandwidth, smaller memory, worse intensity grading, no serial decoders... etc.

Take your pick.

[Fungus]

It can't. I mention that in my latest repair video which uses the 1000X-E

I'm about half way through that video as I type this. 

[borjam]

It should be noted that Rigol practically created and pioneered the low cost scope market.
That should at least confer them some respect.
I have not visited this thread in a long time, and I'm amazed. Such hate for an entry level $400 scope, and the company behind it is embarrassing to read. 

Note that I own one (I purchased the 1074Z) and I don't regret buying it at all. Quite the contrary, ¡I am happy with it!  Obviously it has its limitations, but it works for me.

That said, I think Rigol needs some time to reach maturity as a manufacturer. Some of the features seem to be there just as "checklist items" rather than useful features. But I guess that part of the design process in the "Alpha" brands is to have them thoroughly evaluated by actual oscilloscope experts (who are probably the same guys who produce those very useful application notes) and Rigol doesn't employ that kind of staff or they just don't include that design-evaluate-feedback mechanism in their product development cycle.

I agree that the amount of hate it attracts is really stupid. Mentioning Rigol here is like mentioning Apple in Slashdot 

[rstofer]

The UI could use some work, particularly the menu system* and the left/right scrolling when zoomed.

(*) Using a rotary knob to go up/down menus and select things when it has up/down arrow buttons next to the menu? 

Are you sure you want to do that?  Some of the lists are a bit long and it's faster to scroll down with an encoder.
That's one of the big problems with designing a UI; everybody wants something a little different.

Given a decent encoder with detents, the menu selection doesn't bother me.  It works well enough.  Boot time; now there's an issue!

[Gabri74]

i became dubious of selling my 1054 after i saw the post of that guy that installed linux on it, hope is not yet lost

Mind sharing a link? I've searched all the forums (and google..) for linux + rigol and/or 1054 and it seems I can't find this post :-)

[BravoV]

i became dubious of selling my 1054 after i saw the post of that guy that installed linux on it, hope is not yet lost

Mind sharing a link? I've searched all the forums (and google..) for linux + rigol and/or 1054 and it seems I can't find this post :-)

-> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/wtb-broken-rigol-ds10xxz-scopemainboard/

[Fungus]

(*) Using a rotary knob to go up/down menus and select things when it has up/down arrow buttons next to the menu? 

Are you sure you want to do that?  Some of the lists are a bit long and it's faster to scroll down with an encoder.

a) It's simply the wrong paradigm IMHO.
b) Is there a reason we can't have both?

Given an encoder with detents...

...which it doesn't have.

(and would probably cost them $0 to implement)

[bitseeker]

Given an encoder with detents...

...which it doesn't have.

(and would probably cost them $0 to implement)

However, like with the fan, it's a mod that one could make.

[xrunner]

What about the colors for the channels?

• Yellow
  
• Light blue
  
• Pink
  
• Dark blue

Ick. Why two variation of blue - it's confusing. There are other colors out there Rigol - green, red, brown, orange. I really don't want pink on my scope in any case. How could any serious manufacturer have decided to use those colors? I guess for $400 I suppose.

141 pages ...

[ebastler]

What about the colors for the channels?

• Yellow
  
• Light blue
  
• Pink
  
• Dark blue

Ick. Why two variation of blue - it's confusing. There are other colors out there Rigol - green, red, brown, orange. I really don't want pink on my scope in any case. How could any serious manufacturer have decided to use those colors? I guess for $400 I suppose.

Colors?! Come on, xrunner -- I'm sure you can come up with something even more trivial than that! 
How about criticizing the color of the enclosure, or maybe the choice of the "Z" suffix in the model designation, or the font they chose for that "Z"? 

If you really want to discuss colors: I am mildly color-blind, and am happy to confirm that your choice of colors (green, red, brown, orange) is about the worst set of four someone could come up with for the about 8% of males affected by that...

[bitseeker]

I haven't been diligently following the firmware hacking thread for this scope, but perhaps one day we'll be able to adjust the colors ourselves.

[xrunner]

Colors?! Come on, xrunner -- I'm sure you can come up with something even more trivial than that! How bout criticizing the color of the enclosure, or maybe the choice of the "Z" suffix in the model designation, or the font they chose for that "Z"? 

Give me a few minutes. 

If you really want to discuss colors: I am mildly color-blind, and am happy to confirm that your choice of colors (green, red, brown, orange) is about the worst set of four someone could come up with for the about 8% of males affected by that...

Well I'm kinda bored now, because my latest score hasn't arrived yet (an HP 3478A) so I thought I'd keep the thread going with a color debate. 

What they need is scope skins, choose between about 10 different skins at the time you order.

[ebastler]

I haven't been diligently following the firmware hacking thread for this scope, but perhaps one day we'll be able to adjust the colors ourselves.

But then, how do I hack the colors on the front panel and on the probe tips? 

[bitseeker]

I haven't been diligently following the firmware hacking thread for this scope, but perhaps one day we'll be able to adjust the colors ourselves.

But then, how do I hack the colors on the front panel and on the probe tips? 

Paint, LEDs, etc. Fun!

[kcbrown]

What extra money? I bought this funny box, paid money for it, spent about 2 months dissecting it's programming & GUI based on my ~20year pro experience in GUI/software design. Did gave feedback incl. directly to Rigol, for free (as many others have done before!). Result? 0.

That's good (excellent, really), of course, but feedback isn't the same as up-front design.  You could give similar feedback about other aspects of the scope, but they'd have to incorporate that feedback into the existing design.  Doing that properly would mean they'd need someone there who understands how to do that well, but such a person would essentially have the same qualifications that you have, and if they had such a person then their implementation wouldn't have these shortcomings in the first place.

It's not about the money.

Of course it is.  You weren't there on their design staff, working on the product from the start, for free, were you?

It's about some amateurs (regarding GUI design / math at least) getting a high ranking position in company.

Yes, but why do you suppose they put those people in those positions in the first place rather than hiring the proper talent?  The answer is almost certainly at least in part due to economics.  I'm sure there's some politics involved as well (there's no avoiding that), but the economic angle is always there in any company.

Luckily for them if product is cheap enough there always will be fanboys who will find excuse for every flaw or situation as whole.
So at least can agree with fanboys on one point - I this box insults your intelligence - sell it. It's not going to get better anytime soon.
You only have to spend about 3dB more to get combination of two other products that will do almost everything miles better.

Often, 3dB worth of money is what makes or breaks the budget, particularly for the hobbyist market.

Again, I have to ask, because you didn't answer the question (though it was asked of tooki), how would you expect Rigol to recover their costs of hiring a competent UI person who also has expertise in T&M equipment use?