Author Topic: New Rigol DS7000  (Read 23239 times)

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Offline extronic

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New Rigol DS7000
« on: June 05, 2018, 04:35:39 pm »
Have you seen?

http://www.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20180515/MSO7000&DS7000_QuickGuide_EN&CN.pdf
http://www.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20180515/MSO7000&DS7000_DataSheet_CN.pdf only Chinese, but have a look on photos and tables

Quick spec:
  • 100-500MHz bandwidth
  • 10" multipoint touch screen
  • 10GSa/s ADC
  • refresh rate 600 000 waveforms per sec
  • memory for 450 000 waveforms
  • HDMI for extrernal display
  • 2 channel waveform generator
  • 16 channel logic analyzer
  • RS232/UART, I2C, SPI, CAN, LIN, I2S, FlexRay, MIL-STD-1553 decoding

Wonder if it's hackable :D :D :D
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 04:44:52 pm by extronic »
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Offline Daruosha

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2018, 06:29:53 pm »
I wonder who designes their new line of products. Just look at the "quick" button  :palm:
 Is it a toy with matching shaped buttons or a serious tool?

However spec sheet looks interesting.
 

Offline Pinkus

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2018, 08:04:01 pm »
Yes, the Rigol designer did create some quite 'special' designs in the past year.
I have no idea, what they intend. Probably something like "oh, this button with the cutout at the top right corner has already been used 5 times now. This is boring, lets now use one with a cutout on the lower left area..... and then some with a missing top left corner ..... and now lets use one rotated by 90° to show that we are progressive".
And these strange moving lines to group buttons - yuck.
Probably the user shall call him lucky that they do not use blinking RGB LEDs all over the unit.
If you look closely at the screenshot you can see that this 'design' is also been used in the software itself.
User friendly is defined differently..... I am so glad that I can use my boring Keysight DSOX4000 series scope.

Anyway, here the datasheet is available in English: http://emin.vn/media/uploads/mso7000.pdf

Edit: I added a picture where I noted some of the thoughts the Rigol designer might had during the design.
.... and a website with a (useless) video and two pictures of the PCB of the DS7000 scope: http://www.rigol.com/DS7000/DS7000.HTML
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 08:49:20 pm by Pinkus »
 
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Offline bugi

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2018, 08:08:22 pm »
Actually usability is a good reason to have some different shape/size buttons, some different grouping lines etc.  But, that scope design might not be a good example on how to use them :P
 
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Offline nrxnrx

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2018, 08:33:56 pm »
Found a site with prices. Never heard of them, but here they are:

https://www.yoycart.xxxxx/Product/570032364221/ (replace "xxxxx" with "com")

$3572.23 - DS7014 (100MHz 4-channel 10GSa s)
$5759.01 - DS7024 (200MHz 4-channel 10GSa s)
$12944.13 - DS7034 (350MHz 4-channel 10GSa s)
$16737.52 - DS7054 (500MHz 4-channel 10GSa s)
$5580.50 - MSO7014 (100M 4 16-channel Logic 10G)
$7811.90 - MSO7024 (200M 4 16-channel Logic 10G)
$14506.12 - MSO7034 (350M 4 16-channel Logic 10G)
$18968.93 - MSO7054 (500M 4 16-channel Logic 10G)


Edit: The prices above are wrong (or not in USD). See below: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg1603999/#msg1603999
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 04:59:33 am by nrxnrx »
 

Offline extronic

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2018, 09:26:53 pm »
OMG  :o I can buy Rohde&Schwarz RTB2004 with all options for 3600 EUR.
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Offline Pinkus

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2018, 09:42:24 pm »
OMG  :o I can buy Rohde&Schwarz RTB2004 with all options for 3600 EUR.
Yes, but the RTB2004 is pretty limited in many aspects. This DS7000 scope should probably be compared to the RTM3000 series.
Also: 3600 Euro = $4200, thus no big difference (though nobody know what the Rigol options will cost), but the RTB2004 will offer much less than the DS7000 for the money.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 10:55:18 pm by Pinkus »
 

Offline extronic

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2018, 09:57:07 pm »
OMG  :o I can buy Rohde&Schwarz RTB2004 with all options for 3600 EUR.
Yes, but the RTB2004 is pretty limited in many aspects. This DS7000 scope should probably be compared to the RTB3000 series.
Also: 3600 Euro = $4200, thus no big difference (though nobody know what the Rigol options will cost), but the RTB2004 will offer much less than the DS7000 for the money.
What exactly do you mean with "much less"?
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2018, 10:20:27 pm »
https://gsmserver.com.ua/nfs/product/876444/file/MSODS7000.pdf

Interesting details..


@extronic  much less in every aspect... read the info..

We'll see how mature it will be at release... But in theory, very interesting...

 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2018, 10:33:37 pm »
If the prices are right then it is very expensive. Especially for a Rigol. The R&S RTM3000 is a better candidate to compare against (but the RTM3000 has 10bit ADCs, 1GHz and a higher resolution screen for the same price). The Rigol presentation never mentions the number of ADC bits. Also the 10Gs/s is a bit misleading. With 4 channels you have 2.5Gs/s.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline lem_ix

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2018, 11:50:35 pm »
Looks like a ds4000 replacement, hopefully with more polish this time. If any of the Chinese manufacturers are going to have a chance of fighting in the pro market they're going to have to offer superb quality. Why would anyone risk ordering one for work instead of the well established brands, regardless of value.
 

Offline darkstar49

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2018, 12:28:33 am »


'wondering why 10GS/s (per channel, as per the data sheet...) for 500Mhz max ?????

or they'll show up with higher bandwidth models later on...  but anyway, if the mentioned prices are correct, 19K for a 500Mhz MSO sounds pretty ridiculous... one could probably get a Keysight S-Series, R&S RTO or many other higher-end scope for that money...   
 

Offline Tommmy

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2018, 01:18:14 am »
Hi, played with it at Hamradio Friedrichshafen last Weekend. (only DS7054)
It feels like the MSO4024 which i have at work only better, thanks to the touch screen.
The Exhibitors says it's 7XXX€ for MSO7054 without any Options.
I added Scans from the flyer.
You can now use 4 decoders at the same time. (who needs 4 at the same time :wtf: )
 
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Offline Pinkus

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2018, 02:30:24 am »
You can now use 4 decoders at the same time. (who needs 4 at the same time :wtf: )
4 is really pretty much. Seldom I use three at one time, usually I need only one or two.
Even better: at Rigol this means bi-directional decoder, not this Rohde&Schwarz bullsh*t where (RTB2004) each direction uses one of the two available decoder (thus Rx and Tx: no decoder left - or: MOSI and MISO: no decoder left).
As Rigol counts one decoder always as a bi-directional decoder,  for R&S (in their counting scheme), this would mean the DS7000 does come with 8 decoder!
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2018, 05:40:29 am »
Actually usability is a good reason to have some different shape/size buttons, some different grouping lines etc.  But, that scope design might not be a good example on how to use them :P

If that "Quick" button is designed to be used with the thumb then it looks fine to me.



Cute, but it's not as if you need to read the text on that button more than, like, twice in your entire life.

If that button is there instead of pushing the multifunction knob then you'll be praising deity when you actually have to use this 'scope.

(and if not, then  :palm: :palm: :palm: Rigol)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 05:42:19 am by Fungus »
 

Offline DaJMasta

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2018, 06:06:26 am »
Specs look promising... but it's really too bad it's only an 8 bit converter.  If they could have gotten to 10 bits or so that really would be high end scope specs.  I guess with so much sampling rate, you can probably get an effective 10 or 11 bits even on a 500MHz signal, but still, if the bandwidth cap is 500MHz, I'd certainly prefer more bits out of the ADCs over higher sample rate.

Offline ch_scr

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2018, 06:25:53 am »
It looks to me like the real news is Rigol is announcing its series of ASICs called "Ultravision II" Family. Seems to consist of differential probe, frontend, ADC and clock / processing ASIC. The presentation shows they really don't need a lot of expensive periphery, except the RAM and some nondescript dual core application processor. So a lot more of the customer money gets into their pocket, less of the money gets into the pockets of FPGA, ADC, frontend, clock IC makers. I would say it is big news for Rigol and we will see a whole family of new devices based on this, being released in the expensive to cheap order. I also would say this marks a milestone in the growth of Rigol and shows they really think big and have deep pockets, developing all these ASICs at once. Also note they develop ASICs for what is scope specific (=expensive) and leave out the mass market stuff (RAM, AP).
Edit: typo
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2018, 06:51:42 am »
I would say it is big news for Rigol and we will see a whole family of new devices based on this, being released in the expensive to cheap order.
I tend to agree. Which was the last new Rigol scope Dave has showed / tore down? It wouldn't surprise me if it is the DS1054Z from a few years ago.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2018, 07:00:26 am »
Specs look promising... but it's really too bad it's only an 8 bit converter.  If they could have gotten to 10 bits or so that really would be high end scope specs.  I guess with so much sampling rate, you can probably get an effective 10 or 11 bits even on a 500MHz signal, but still, if the bandwidth cap is 500MHz, I'd certainly prefer more bits out of the ADCs over higher sample rate.

They couldn't drop the sample rate much since it halves for 2, and 4 channels. So at 4 it's just 2.5gs/s.
 

Offline DaJMasta

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2018, 08:32:43 am »
They couldn't drop the sample rate much since it halves for 2, and 4 channels. So at 4 it's just 2.5gs/s.

Oof, yeah I see that now.  I suppose it's probably a single asic scope, then?  I assume that means we'll likely see a higher end variant with a pair of asics with a couple years time at the new top end... though at the pricepoint of these, would having two asics in one scope so they could manage 5Gs/s on 4 channels even be competitive with stuff at the 20k+ pricepoint they'd likely be at?  I guess that's all conjecture, but maybe there's a different version of the same core/chip that will come into a new higher end version - I assume there will be cut down derivatives of this on the lower end, in time, too.

Offline darkstar49

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2018, 11:58:01 pm »

On page 6 (section1), they mention "up to 10GS/s real-time sample rate per channel"

But from the rest of the data sheet, pretty unclear...
 

Offline imo

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2018, 04:40:06 am »
Quote
"up to 10GS/s real-time sample rate per channel"
Marketing people are using such a wording to say 10GS/s with single channel only. They would not write "up to" in case of 4x10GS/s, they would write "10GS/s real-time per channel" :)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 04:41:38 am by imo »
 

Offline EmonaSATom

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2018, 03:21:22 pm »
Hi Guys,

Tom here from Emona Instruments in South Australia

You may be aware that we are the Australian and New Zealand distributor for Rigol with head office in Sydney.

We are currently working on pricing and information for the new 7000 series, should be on our website soon.

EDIT 20-06-18: pricing is here http://www.emona.com.au/ds7000/
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 10:56:55 am by EmonaSATom »
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2018, 09:09:37 pm »
here is the exact spec:
10 GSa/s (single-channel), 5 GSa/s (dual-channel), 2.5 GSa/s (four-channel)

memory analog channels:
- standard
100 Mpts (single-channel), 50 Mpts (dual-channel), 25 Mpts (four-channel)
- with option 250Mpts
250 Mpts (single-channel), 125 Mpts (dual-channel), 50 Mpts (four-channel)
- with option 500Mpts
500 Mpts (single-channel), 250 Mpts (dual-channel), 125 Mpts (four-channel)

memory digital channels 62.5Mpts

European public launch date (with prices) June the 12th

All models with pricing, data sheet, user manuale etc. will be active on June the 12th at 00.01

More info, just ask, bye ;)
Technical Support
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2018, 02:27:39 am »
The automatic measurements have a bloody small font again as in DS2000. That is bad.
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Offline Gallymimus

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2018, 03:44:18 am »
Found a site with prices. Never heard of them, but here they are:

https://www.yoycart.xxxxx/Product/570032364221/ (replace "xxxxx" with "com")

$3572.23 - DS7014 (100MHz 4-channel 10GSa s)
$5759.01 - DS7024 (200MHz 4-channel 10GSa s)
$12944.13 - DS7034 (350MHz 4-channel 10GSa s)
$16737.52 - DS7054 (500MHz 4-channel 10GSa s)
$5580.50 - MSO7014 (100M 4 16-channel Logic 10G)
$7811.90 - MSO7024 (200M 4 16-channel Logic 10G)
$14506.12 - MSO7034 (350M 4 16-channel Logic 10G)
$18968.93 - MSO7054 (500M 4 16-channel Logic 10G)

Wow those prices are MUCH higher than the ones listed on Rigol's own website:

DS7014   100 MHz   4      NA   500 Mpts   600,000 wfms/s   $2,699   
DS7024   200 MHz   4      NA   500 Mpts   600,000 wfms/s   $3,699   
DS7034   350 MHz   4      NA   500 Mpts   600,000 wfms/s   $6,999   
DS7054   500 MHz   4      NA   500 Mpts   600,000 wfms/s   $9,999   
MSO7014   100 MHz   4   16   NA   500 Mpts   600,000 wfms/s   $3,999   
MSO7024   200 MHz   4   16   NA   500 Mpts   600,000 wfms/s   $4,999   
MSO7034   350 MHz   4   16   NA   500 Mpts   600,000 wfms/s   $8,299   
MSO7054   500 MHz   4   16   NA   500 Mpts   600,000 wfms/s   $11,299   
 

Offline nrxnrx

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2018, 04:55:33 am »
Thanks! I updated my post to point to yours.
 

Offline etl17

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2018, 04:59:55 am »
I wonder if the 100MHz models can be hacked to become 500MHz. Since all models have the same sample rate, it's quite possible that they also have the same front end. However, I wonder if the 10Gs sample rate is enough to compete with the R&S 16bit DACs. What do you guys think?
 

Offline extronic

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2018, 05:09:28 am »
New info on Rigol's website, price, specs and some videos
https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/7000/

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Online jjoonathan

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2018, 05:24:37 am »
> Options
> Bandwidth Upgrade
> DS7000-BW1T5
> 7000 Series Bandwidth upgrades from 100 MHz to 500 MHz

 :popcorn:
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2018, 07:30:33 am »
Wow, there is search and navigation.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2018, 03:20:29 am »
The prices seem to be pretty much on par with the R&S RTM3000 if you go for a similar configuration. I don't think the 500Mpts memory depth option is included in the prices listed a few postings back.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2018, 03:35:10 am »
Yea, I try not to be a snob but if the price between rigol and rtm3000 are similar I'd never consider the rigol. Unless reviews show it is actually a pretty good scope.
 

Online jjoonathan

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2018, 05:06:10 am »
On the low end there's a pretty big difference: $2600 vs $4200. Also, the rigol has zone trigger and 10x the wfm/s -- but the R&S has 10bit.
 

Offline DaJMasta

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2018, 08:02:38 am »
Yea, I try not to be a snob but if the price between rigol and rtm3000 are similar I'd never consider the rigol. Unless reviews show it is actually a pretty good scope.

Hopefully Dave and/or Shahriar will get their hands on one soon, if it can at least keep up, maybe it will even drive the price of the segment down.

Offline bozidarms

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2018, 11:03:53 pm »
Rigol has one very useful function, namely Histogram!
By R&S one can find Histogram first in RTA series (unreasonable costly).
 

Offline RigolTechUSA

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2018, 02:22:31 am »
Thanks for all the interest on the new scopes. We have been working hard on video content that describes all of the new features in the 7000 Series. We have put together a set of landing pages with that content as well as some videos showing head to head differences between the Rigol 7000 and some competitive scopes. I wanted to share this link for those looking for more information:

https://www.rigolna.com/DS7000

Now that the product is released we are happy to answer any questions.

RIGOL USA Office:
www.rigolna.com
info@rigol.com
877-474-4651
 

Offline tequipment

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2018, 02:54:01 am »
Here is the link to https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS7014/Digital-Oscilloscopes/
and https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/MSO7014/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/

You can easily see the full series with prices.

We think this scope will be a winner.  We are offering 60 days return rights plus our eevblog discount on the units.

Best Regards,
Evan Cirelli

Vice President and Co-Founder
TEquipment.NET
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2018, 03:35:45 am »
Yea, I try not to be a snob but if the price between rigol and rtm3000 are similar I'd never consider the rigol. Unless reviews show it is actually a pretty good scope.

Hopefully Dave and/or Shahriar will get their hands on one soon, if it can at least keep up, maybe it will even drive the price of the segment down.

Yea, it has some really interesting things going on. Decodes are ~2k(or 900 if you need 1) and mem is ~1.4k. It feels like it's in a weird place max BW being 500mhz but everything else comparable to the "standard" 3000 series scopes, including price. For me the LA specs are a little disappointing for the price.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2018, 03:52:53 am »
We think this scope will be a winner.
Then why do you have such a small amount in stock?  >:D
I visit quite a few companies and so far I've only seen A-brand oscilloscopes in this price bracket. If Rigol wants to have any chance to make a name for themselves and compete then the firmware has to work 100% from day one. I just did a price comparison and the pricing on the DS7000 series is pretty much on par with similar instruments from A brands. There is very little room for justifying a make-do scope with partly working firmware in a professional environment where time equals money. I'm sure people will say I'm too negative but let's be real: Rigol doesn't have a very good track record and fixing firmware on their higher end models has taken long in the past. I'm looking forward to some in-depth tests which go deeper than twiddling some knobs to see what is what.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 04:57:20 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline max-bit

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2018, 06:06:20 pm »
When reviewing on eevblog :) ?
Of course and teardown ....
 

Offline imo

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2018, 07:21:56 pm »
An oscilloscope in that price level is a "long term investment" for most users. Imagine year 2025 and an 8bit oscope sitting on your workbench..  Also probably no beefy sells without several independent in-depth reviews with teardowns..
PS: My bet the Rigol's bosses have started already to think on whether they do not miss a historical opportunity to become the clear winners by introducing the 70xx with 10bits instead of 8..
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 11:48:37 pm by imo »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2018, 12:17:03 am »
I took a quick look at one web shop and if we compare similarly equipped RTM3004  and DS7014 (base scope + bundle)  RTM3004 is 6290€ (no VAT) and DS7014 is 3799€ (no VAT).  In that config RTM will have AWG and ARINC 429 protocol and Rigol won't.

If you compare similarly configured RTM3004 MSO and MSO7014, RTM is 7640€ (no VAT) and MSO7014 is 4799€ (no VAT). Rigol will have two channel AWG , and RTM will have ARINC 429 and spectrogram mode.

So if Rigol will not be buggy, prices are quite better for similar capabilities..  And Rigol does have 600K Wfms/for those that care about that.  It has 1Mpoint FFT, and histogram measurements.

That is for 100MHz base model. As BW goes up, there is less difference though..

It remains to be seen how DS/MSO7000 series looks in real life..

 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2018, 12:20:46 am »
An oscilloscope in that price level is a "long term investment" for most users. Imagine year 2025 and an 8bit oscope sitting on your workbench..

For general purpose work, 8 bit is just fine.. For power analysis, I would go with 12 Bit or more anyways ......
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2018, 02:42:50 am »
I took a quick look at one web shop and if we compare similarly equipped RTM3004  and DS7014 (base scope + bundle)  RTM3004 is 6290€ (no VAT) and DS7014 is 3799€ (no VAT).  In that config RTM will have AWG and ARINC 429 protocol and Rigol won't.

If you compare similarly configured RTM3004 MSO and MSO7014, RTM is 7640€ (no VAT) and MSO7014 is 4799€ (no VAT). Rigol will have two channel AWG , and RTM will have ARINC 429 and spectrogram mode.
True but in the region up to 200MHz there are many cheaper alternatives.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2018, 03:06:27 am »
I took a quick look at one web shop and if we compare similarly equipped RTM3004  and DS7014 (base scope + bundle)  RTM3004 is 6290€ (no VAT) and DS7014 is 3799€ (no VAT).  In that config RTM will have AWG and ARINC 429 protocol and Rigol won't.

If you compare similarly configured RTM3004 MSO and MSO7014, RTM is 7640€ (no VAT) and MSO7014 is 4799€ (no VAT). Rigol will have two channel AWG , and RTM will have ARINC 429 and spectrogram mode.
True but in the region up to 200MHz there are many cheaper alternatives.

That is true...
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2018, 06:17:18 pm »
When reviewing on eevblog :) ?
Of course and teardown ....

I have not been contacted by Rigol
 

Offline EmonaSATom

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2018, 11:03:51 am »
Australian Pricing is here: http://www.emona.com.au/ds7000/

DS-7000 SERIES (Inc. GST)            
DS-7014   100MHz, 4CH, 10GS/s   $4,754.20
DS-7024   200MHz, 4CH, 10GS/s   $6,514.20
DS-7034   350MHz, 4CH, 10GS/s   $11,310.20
DS-7054   500MHz, 4CH, 10GS/s   $15,328.50

Email: testinst@emona.com.au
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 11:07:00 am by EmonaSATom »
 
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Offline asmi

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2018, 07:43:46 pm »
Canadian pricing is here: https://www.rigolcanada.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/7000/
Interestingly it's cheaper over here than in Oz :) But still expensive :(
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2018, 07:46:39 pm »
We will get demo unit and stock units on June the 26th . as soon as possible we will release some videos . if you like to see anything special just reply here or send me a DM. thanks.
Technical Support
 

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2018, 07:53:52 pm »
I presume they are software bandwidth upgradable?
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2018, 07:57:07 pm »
Yes they are:
Bandwidth Upgrade Option
Bandwidth upgrades from 100 MHz to 200 MHz
Bandwidth upgrades from 100 MHz to 350 MHz
Bandwidth upgrades from 100 MHz to 500 MHz
Bandwidth upgrades from 200 MHz to 350 MHz
Bandwidth upgrades from 200 MHz to 500 MHz
Bandwidth upgrades from 350 MHz to 500 MHz
Technical Support
 

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2018, 07:59:14 pm »
Interesting about the overload recovery time.
Do they really mean 0.5 PERCENT the recovery time of other scopes?

 

Offline Karel

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2018, 08:56:24 pm »
We think this scope will be a winner.
Then why do you have such a small amount in stock?  >:D
I visit quite a few companies and so far I've only seen A-brand oscilloscopes in this price bracket. If Rigol wants to have any chance to make a name for themselves and compete then the firmware has to work 100% from day one. I just did a price comparison and the pricing on the DS7000 series is pretty much on par with similar instruments from A brands. There is very little room for justifying a make-do scope with partly working firmware in a professional environment where time equals money. I'm sure people will say I'm too negative but let's be real: Rigol doesn't have a very good track record and fixing firmware on their higher end models has taken long in the past. I'm looking forward to some in-depth tests which go deeper than twiddling some knobs to see what is what.

This.

Some years ago, we bought Rigol's flagship: the DS6104, including most options (uart, spi, i2c decoding etc.).
When we started to use the remote LAN connection, we hit the following three bugs:

bug no. 1: (reported at, and confirmed by, Rigol in October 2015)

When I run this software: https://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/ and select LAN connection,
I get randomly the response: "command error". This blocks the connection for 5 seconds and a timeout occurs.
This happens randomly, and when it happens, it does after sending different commands.
So, it's not related to one and the same command. Sometimes the program runs fine for minutes.

bug no. 2: (reported at, and confirmed by, Rigol in Januari 2017)

Apply a squarewave of 1KHz to channel 1.
Set triggering to normal, rising edge.
Set the memory depth to 1.4Mpts.
Acquire the signal, then set the scope to STOP mode.

Download the waveform in RAW mode, format BYTE.

When you observe the downloaded waveform, the triggerpoint is
shifted about 460 nanoSec.

bug no. 3: (reported at, and confirmed by, Rigol in December 2016)

When setting  the treshold for the UART serial decoding,
it seems to work fine.
But when asking for the threshold setting, the value is always 10% of
the actual value.
This bug happens when the probe attenuation is set to 10:1.

These bugs are still unresolved and make it impossible for us to use the remote connection.

We have learned our lesson and we will never buy Rigol stuff anymore for our business.
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Offline Porenbeton

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2018, 09:33:39 am »
I think there are quite a few things interresting about this scope.

It finally has some functions now performed in hardware instead of in software unlike all the other scopes from Rigol.
Decoding beeing probably the most useful out of them. The decode function in all rigol oscilloscopes at least up to the 4000 (i am not sure about ds6000) series is in my opinion barely usable.
It just slows down too much and has a lot of actual glitches in the data because the software has problems to correctly decode the on screen waveform data.
Hopefully the implementation in hardware is executed good enought, under this circumstance this would be a pretty big selling point for most people i think.
Also if i understood their marketing correctly math functions are also now completly in hardware. This would negate the huge loss of responsiveness from the ui while using math.
Beeing able to display 4 fuctions at the same time is also nice to have. But there is one big downside to this: I could not find anything related to custom math functions in the datasheet nore
could i see it in their marketing videos showing off the math functions. So I assume it is not implemented in this model or it is missing in the documentation and i overlooked something in the video.
Would be something interesting to look up if anyone here gets their hands on this. This function was quite useful from time to time, so it would be a bit dissapointing if it really was missing.

Also a quote from the store of one of Rigols distributors Batronix for the memory upgrade for the DS7000 series:
"[...] Simple activation via software code (memory is already build-in). Please specify the serial number of your oscilloscope, [...]."
So its safe to assume that all options are again activated with codes generated from the serial number if the description on the distributors store is correct.

If this scope is both option and bandwidth hackable then 2200€ without tax is really a unbeatable price for a 4 channel 500mhz scope with such high amount of sample memory and 
really high update rate + hardware decode.

But I wonder how responsive the touchscreen and the overall UI will be.

 

Offline imo

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2018, 09:03:10 pm »
Improving the speed of the fancy math and the analyses functions (including the UI responses) of an oscope is great, the only issue I see is the rule which still works in our today's digital world:
Quote
Sh.t in, sh.t out..
With 8bit input you get 8bit output. Any advanced math co-processor or any fastest ASIC cannot change that..
 

Offline bugi

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2018, 12:34:23 am »
Improving the speed of the fancy math and the analyses functions (including the UI responses) of an oscope is great, the only issue I see is the rule which still works in our today's digital world:
Quote
Sh.t in, sh.t out..
With 8bit input you get 8bit output. Any advanced math co-processor or any fastest ASIC cannot change that..
Depending on the particular way the 8-bit input is produced (needs to have suitable level of uncorrelated noise), the desired math done, and the bandwidth needed, yes, they can produce more bits from less input bits. Basically the samples/bandwidth/time -to- more (effective) bits -tradeoff. The first example that comes to my mind is the FFT done while ERES is enabled, giving (slightly) lower noise on the produced FFT, etc.
 

Offline modernjack3

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2018, 05:21:49 am »
Damn.. this new scope is really messing with my head.
I wanted to get a DS4024E with 200MHz BW but now the DS7014 seems just so attractive.
Sadly I could only afford that scope with 100MHz BW and now I am struggling really hard.

The fastest Signal I would be going to measure would be a 50MHz Clock signal - do you guys think it is worth it to still go for the DS4024E
for the higher BW or should I get a DS7014 with 100MHz BW?

I hope I asked this question at the right place...sorry if I did not.

Greetings, Jack
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2018, 05:52:55 am »
Damn.. this new scope is really messing with my head.
I wanted to get a DS4024E with 200MHz BW but now the DS7014 seems just so attractive.
Sadly I could only afford that scope with 100MHz BW and now I am struggling really hard.

The fastest Signal I would be going to measure would be a 50MHz Clock signal - do you guys think it is worth it to still go for the DS4024E
for the higher BW or should I get a DS7014 with 100MHz BW?

I hope I asked this question at the right place...sorry if I did not.

Greetings, Jack

I have a ds4k scope and while it has served me very well I think it would be a big call to buy one now. It is quite dated and while it can grab data fast any of the new scopes beat it on the processing of that data.

I would go with the new guy.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2018, 05:56:47 am »
Damn.. this new scope is really messing with my head.
I wanted to get a DS4024E with 200MHz BW but now the DS7014 seems just so attractive.
Sadly I could only afford that scope with 100MHz BW and now I am struggling really hard.

The fastest Signal I would be going to measure would be a 50MHz Clock signal - do you guys think it is worth it to still go for the DS4024E
for the higher BW or should I get a DS7014 with 100MHz BW?

I hope I asked this question at the right place...sorry if I did not.

Greetings, Jack
For a 50MHz clock signal you'll need at least 200MHz to see some harmonics an have a clue about what the square wave looks like. 250 to 300MHz is even better. Still when spending this kind of money it is wise to look at other brands or even used. Read Karel's post carefully.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 06:01:10 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline modernjack3

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2018, 06:05:00 am »
Damn.. this new scope is really messing with my head.
I wanted to get a DS4024E with 200MHz BW but now the DS7014 seems just so attractive.
Sadly I could only afford that scope with 100MHz BW and now I am struggling really hard.

The fastest Signal I would be going to measure would be a 50MHz Clock signal - do you guys think it is worth it to still go for the DS4024E
for the higher BW or should I get a DS7014 with 100MHz BW?

I hope I asked this question at the right place...sorry if I did not.

Greetings, Jack
For a 50MHz clock signal you'll need at least 200MHz to see some harmonics an have a clue about what the square wave looks like. 250 to 300MHz is even better. Still when spending this kind of money it is wise to look at other brands or even used.

That is true but I thought about maybe renting (or borrowing) a scope with such a BW just for this one signal in the worst case or ( the case that I hope for) -
Maybe the DS7k series will also have some hardware hacks to push up the BW limit.
If not so then maybe I can afford a Software BW upgrade some time in the future...
The new ASIC (not to mention the touchscreen) is just so tempting :/

Greetings, Jack
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2018, 06:16:36 am »
If you really want a nice touch screen and ASICs then buy an R&S RTB2000 or RTM3000 series. At least these scopes work and have 10 bit ADCs. AFAIK this is Rigol's first ASIC based scope and it may have some issues. I wouldn't want to be an early adopter for new technology which can't be fixed by a software update.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline modernjack3

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2018, 06:47:37 am »
If you really want a nice touch screen and ASICs then buy an R&S RTB2000 or RTM3000 series. At least these scopes work and have 10 bit ADCs. AFAIK this is Rigol's first ASIC based scope and it may have some issues. I wouldn't want to be an early adopter for new technology which can't be fixed by a software update.

You definitely have a strong point in that regard!
But I do not really need the 10 bit resolution and when it comes to the rest then the Rigol - at least on paper as far as I can see- is the clear winner when it comes to price and performance or am I missing out on something important that I can't see?

Greetings, Jack
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2018, 06:55:20 am »
If you really want a nice touch screen and ASICs then buy an R&S RTB2000 or RTM3000 series. At least these scopes work and have 10 bit ADCs. AFAIK this is Rigol's first ASIC based scope and it may have some issues. I wouldn't want to be an early adopter for new technology which can't be fixed by a software update.

You definitely have a strong point in that regard!
But I do not really need the 10 bit resolution and when it comes to the rest then the Rigol - at least on paper as far as I can see- is the clear winner when it comes to price and performance or am I missing out on something important that I can't see?
Yes. There are many pieces of test equipment which look great on paper but don't work in real life. I really see what you mean and I went down the same rabbit hole already. A couple of years ago I spend over 2000 euro on a newly introduced oscilloscope which didn't work and I was foolish enough to believe the manufacturer (in this case Siglent) would fix the firmware soon. I ended up throwing it in the trash (=money wasted) and bought a different oscilloscope because I needed an oscilloscope which works. Again: read the posting from Karel. His experience is very similar to mine. If you want a piece of equipment which works then stay clear from Rigol and Siglent. They don't test their firmware at all. Sure the A brands slip up too but A) too a far lesser extend and B) they make things right even if it means taking the hardware back and fixing it.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 07:05:11 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline asmi

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2018, 10:57:15 am »
Sure the A brands slip up too but A) too a far lesser extend and B) they make things right even if it means taking the hardware back and fixing it.
You forgot to add C) charge you 2-3 times what "B" brands do for the same (or less) features content.
You get what you pay for.
 

Online lukier

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2018, 07:17:14 pm »
They don't test their firmware at all. Sure the A brands slip up too but A) too a far lesser extend and B) they make things right even if it means taking the hardware back and fixing it.

This is quite true, but I get the impression that things are changing. I must say I was fairly impressed with Siglent's responsivness and quick firmware fix releases for SDS1104X-E (see the big thread).

On the other hand you have stuff like Keysight's E36300A PSUs, bad standby & fan control design, long wait for firmware update and potential recall as AFAIR CH1 overshoot is still there. Or R&S having if I remember correctly fixed firmware release cycle (every quarter?) because dunno "we use SCRUM so f,.. you".

Things are not as they used to be.

Of course, overall, brand name stuff is still better, less bugs, better commercial support, repair service, providing spare parts for a long time after release and so on, but yet they charge for all that in much higher product prices (except the price of this Rigol scope maybe :) ).
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2018, 07:51:06 pm »
They don't test their firmware at all. Sure the A brands slip up too but A) too a far lesser extend and B) they make things right even if it means taking the hardware back and fixing it.

This is quite true, but I get the impression that things are changing. I must say I was fairly impressed with Siglent's responsivness and quick firmware fix releases for SDS1104X-E (see the big thread).

On the other hand you have stuff like Keysight's E36300A PSUs, bad standby & fan control design, long wait for firmware update and potential recall as AFAIR CH1 overshoot is still there. Or R&S having if I remember correctly fixed firmware release cycle (every quarter?) because dunno "we use SCRUM so f,.. you".

Things are not as they used to be.

Of course, overall, brand name stuff is still better, less bugs, better commercial support, repair service, providing spare parts for a long time after release and so on, but yet they charge for all that in much higher product prices (except the price of this Rigol scope maybe :) ).

I am sure that the part about not testing their firmware is not true. All companies test their hardware, firmware and software before release. However they all don't have the same capacity for testing and so don't find and fix all issues prior to release. Different companies also will have different tolerances for what they will release as well. E.g. Keysight might delay a release due to a spelling mistake in the UI, but maybe Siglent would go ahead and fix it later.

The problem is that it is impossible to test every combination of every feature. You would be there for multiple lifetimes. Nobody can do complete testing, but some companies can do better than others. For example if a company invests in an automated test framework, and then invests in creating tests for that framework for every new feature, and then invests in maintaining those tests as the firmware changes, then they have an improved testing capability vs someone who did not invest.

Also, Keysight/R&S/Brand A have many years of experience of testing complex devices. They also have many experienced people who are able to use their intuition and discover bugs first before the public ever see them. Their ability to pull this off will obviously diminish as they lose these people through natural attrition, cutbacks etc and as the complexity of the instruments increases. They will need to adapt and no doubt they are doing so as this is pretty obvious stuff.

 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2018, 08:30:44 pm »
They don't test their firmware at all. Sure the A brands slip up too but A) too a far lesser extend and B) they make things right even if it means taking the hardware back and fixing it.

This is quite true, but I get the impression that things are changing. I must say I was fairly impressed with Siglent's responsivness and quick firmware fix releases for SDS1104X-E (see the big thread).


Of course, overall, brand name stuff is still better, less bugs, better commercial support, repair service, providing spare parts for a long time after release and so on, but yet they charge for all that in much higher product prices (except the price of this Rigol scope maybe :) ).
I am sure that the part about not testing their firmware is not true. All companies test their hardware, firmware and software before release.
The difference is that with Rigol (and Siglent) very basic functions are not working properly and new versions even break existing functionality every now and then. There is no other explaination for this other than that the testing is not performed in a structured way (= using a test plan and a software tester / software testing department) which equals to not testing at all.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 09:33:17 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline toli

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2018, 03:48:22 am »
I must agree with this point. I recently got the SDS1204X-E + MSO option. The MSO is a new "instrument", but I went for this combination as it seemed to tick all the boxes for my needs at a low price. Plus, its "just" a few extra digital channels for a scope that is already used by forum members for a while, right? Unfortunately, the MSO is very problematic, and practically useless, too many bugs for me to live with. Whats more, I have no idea when it'll be fixed (if at all), and if so what the fix will "cost" in other parameters of the scope.

Personally, I will think twice the next time before buying an instrument that doesn't have a proven track record.
 

Online 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2018, 01:25:09 pm »
I have the good old Rigol DS1054Z and hacked it to 100Mhz with full features. Probably just one of thousands who have done this and found the scope to be good value because of its hackability. The scope has gone thru many firmware revisions with the latest being early this year. Pretty well sorted but Rigol still spell Pulses as Pluses, not exactly an issue but still no fix for a simple spelling error.

The DS7000 appeals to me and probably lots of others like me that bought the DS1054Z, providing its hackable. If its hackable I would upgrade even though my 100Mhz scope meets my needs. What I'm attempting to say is if I am to upgrade to another 8 bit scope then it must represent great value for money otherwise I stay with what I have.

I'm hoping Rigol will turn a blind eye to a hackable upgrade path just like it did with the DS1054Z. If this is possible then this scope will get my money and I'll upgrade. Look forward to seeing what pans out with this new scope from Rigol!
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2018, 05:53:03 pm »
DS7000 is potentially very powerful.

A brands are only good because they tend to keep a platform for very long time. R&S new series is very buggy. Even with basic functions. No better than Siglent in my eye.
But since R&S is an company that plans to sell these scopes for 6-7 years or even more, they will eventually fix all of it. And then, if you buy it then it will be rock solid.

Most important concept here is to keep updating existing, already sold hardware. And not to churn out new scope every 2 years and never fix old ones.
Until now Rigol (for instance) was playing catch up game. Trying to make scopes that will be good enough to compete with big boys. Making new platform every year or two. Learning and developing.
Using existing A/D converters, FPGA etc. Trying different combinations to make it work and yet to cheap to produce. Changing things all the time. Experimenting. Giving up on the stuff that didn't work..

Like we all do.

Meanwhile, Keysight (for instance) kept on producing same old Megazoom architecture (that's 10 years old) , building on 10 years old code base. It made sense for them NOT to change anything major.
And since they knew they were in it for a long run, they made hardware with room to grow some and kept developing and debugging software.
Don't be naive. It wasn't so they can give more to old customers they already gave them money.
It is because they have to keep producing same old scope but make it look relevant and fresh.
But not being idiots, in today's brave world of field upgrades, they let you download new versions. You like them for it. And it makes life easier for them, because they don't have to support bugs on 27 sub-revisions of software since it was released. Win- win.

And now, Rigol has a chipset. It will make sense for them to play the sam game. Keep the platform. Milk it a bit. Develop few more scopes with it. Debug it and make it modular so they don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time... And build up reputation, so they can also charge a bit better prices...

In 70s Honda was a cheap, mini hatchback crap that sold only because it was cheap. Chinese are just following Japanese method. How successful are they going to be, I don't know. But by judging what they did so far,  we should not underestimate them.
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2018, 06:08:26 pm »
.
Until now Rigol (for instance) was playing catch up game. Trying to make scopes that will be good enough to compete with big boys. Making new platform every year or two.
But Rigol have not released new oscilloscopes every year or two.
 

Offline carl0s

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2018, 11:04:31 am »
They could've at least made it black or gold or something.
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2018, 04:04:03 pm »
the black one will come in the future, see as example the Rigol RSA5000 and RSA3000
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Online 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2018, 09:22:57 am »
I'm looking forward to reading/watching some independent reviews on this new scope.

Dave when are you getting hold of one to tear down and review?

Without serious and in depth reviews we dont know if the new DS-7000 series is buggy or up to spec!

No one wants to be an early adopter of a brand new product featuring its own custom asic and feature set, without seeing some serious independent testing.

Come on Rigol get some of these units out for testing in the wild!
 

Offline maxpayne

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2018, 02:05:15 pm »
Got a mail this morning from Rigol showing comparison with Keysight 3000T and Tektronix MDO3000...

https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-006b/t/page/fm/0?sid=TV2:XzlBJUIBo&sid=TV2:wMsyMtJJp
 

Offline toli

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2018, 04:47:24 pm »
The problem is that they are comparing Rigol pricing vs. list prices of competitors. I doubt Rigol actually thinks companies are paying the list price when buying a scope from one of the A brands. If they are counting on the list price difference to sell them, they are in for a very bad surprise.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2018, 08:31:44 pm »
Got a mail this morning from Rigol showing comparison with Keysight 3000T and Tektronix MDO3000...

https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-006b/t/page/fm/0?sid=TV2:XzlBJUIBo&sid=TV2:wMsyMtJJp
Why is R&S' RTM3000 missing from this comparison? Why only compare with older oscilloscopes which have been on the market for several years?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 08:36:06 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2018, 08:44:19 pm »
Choosing the right brand/model is like deciding what to vote during the elections.
Don't look at politicians' programs and campaigns. Instead, look at how they performed in the past.

In general, people tend to think that the next time they will perform better...
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Online 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #79 on: July 04, 2018, 07:57:03 am »
Rigol have a niche in the value area for test instruments when compared to similar others, they offer performance for price, (bang for buck).

If they step up in the feature set and start competing with the A brands the only way they can get a foothold is by having lower, (much lower) purchase price. If these DSOs offer entry point hacking to higher BW, etc, they will be a runaway success, but for $11,000 other established options present themselves.

The Chinese make the Great Wall vehicle range and can be viewed as an analogue for Rigol, great value vehicles, (very low prices) but never considered when up against a similarly priced A brand vehicle.

IMO if Rigol want to compete with the established big boys in test measurement then their prices and features must represent value for money. Paying to enable every option/feature on the DS-7000s is pushing the proverbial up hill. The features/options should come enabled and only pay for enabling BW upgrades. Making the Protocol Analysis options for the scopes free would be a step in the right direction. This would make them a more attractive alternative to be considered.

I would buy one if they represented  real value, (low price, many features) otherwise other A brands would get my money!

« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 08:06:03 am by 1anX »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #80 on: July 04, 2018, 08:52:32 am »
Well, DS7000 looks quite good on paper. But the front panel is confusing. It has 100Mpoints per channel. It might be slow at this memory setting.
Amazing machines. http://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline H.O

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2018, 03:07:51 pm »
It has anywhere between 25 and 500Mpts per channel depending on what options you have and how many channels you have enabled.

At €2600 (incl VAT) for the base model it looks like a nice contender if/when it's found to be hackable.

IMHO the prices for the options are ridiculous, i mean €900 each for the decoder option (yes there's a bundle at €1900) and €1350 to enable the full memory - on a scope costing €2600...come on.
 
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Online maginnovision

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2018, 05:24:12 pm »
IMHO the prices for the options are ridiculous, i mean €900 each for the decoder option (yes there's a bundle at €1900) and €1350 to enable the full memory - on a scope costing €2600...come on.

Having you looked at the cost of options for what they compared their scope to? This isn't a replacement 1054Z.
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #83 on: July 04, 2018, 05:58:33 pm »
Having you looked at the cost of options for what they compared their scope to? This isn't a replacement 1054Z.

That would actually be a really nice addition to the whole measurement market portfolio: Something like a "DS1504X" or how it would be designated: An instrument the compact size and low weight of the DS1054Z but equipped with the new ASIC, a high resolution touch screen and  the grunt of the 7000 model. Don't mind shared controls on a compact scope. I guess if Rigol would offer that (at a resonable price, of course), they would sell quite a few...

Cheers
 

Offline H.O

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #84 on: July 04, 2018, 06:18:18 pm »
Having you looked at the cost of options for what they compared their scope to? This isn't a replacement 1054Z.
Sort of and they appear to be equally ridiculous.
 

Online 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #85 on: July 04, 2018, 06:25:35 pm »
IMHO the prices for the options are ridiculous, i mean €900 each for the decoder option (yes there's a bundle at €1900) and €1350 to enable the full memory - on a scope costing €2600...come on.

Having you looked at the cost of options for what they compared their scope to? This isn't a replacement 1054Z.

I understand what you are saying that its not a 1054Z replacement and compared to A brands its price is competitive.The thing is that its new and untested, and has not been independently assessed by any qualified 3rd party yet. New ASIC feature set and specs remain simply advertising blurb until tested live in the lab.

Rigol are good cheap test instruments that generally if buggy when released get fixed, but the DS-7000 as I said before does not tempt me. Cheap to get into then expensive to option up. Rigol need to add value for the prospective customer to consider this scope over others.

To make this value brand scope sell then Rigol will need to sharpen their pencil and add real value for the user. IMO Rigol need to offer all protocol decoder options free on all the DS-7000 models. The cheapest 100MHz BW model as well as having the decoder options free, should also start at 200MHz and drop the 100MHz model option altogether.

Rigol need to understand that their market share comes from the value for money sector of test equipment. When spending $11000 on a value brand like Rigol DS-7000 the other 'A' brand DSOs will win me and my money.

I would love to buy a feature rich DSO like the DS-7000 but Rigol need to be more realistic in their pricing. Option enabling on the scope is value adding for Rigol only, (increased profit) and not the customer who can clearly see hardware is already in place.

It would take a massive pricing rethink by Rigol to tempt me to buy their new scope. I would love to upgrade to the new Rigol instrument, problem is its priced like a Porsche and in reality its brand is the analogue of a Great Wall pickup.

When are we going to see independent reviews on this new Rigol scope?


« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 06:29:07 pm by 1anX »
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #86 on: July 05, 2018, 01:04:57 am »
When is Dave Jones going to review the MSO version of the new Rigol 7000 series?

In this review I would like to see an extensive real world protocol decoder test and Logic Analyzer test.

The test should test the speed when using full memory depth, and should verify if the protocol decoding is really done in hardware.

One should also make a long memory capture, and search in the long memory capture to verify how easy it is to search within a long trace.

Maybe use an actual PCB board of a commercial product, where I2C, SPI, CAN signals are present, and perform a real world protocol decoder test and Logic Analyzer test.
Perform a real world troubleshooting session, to put the product to a real world test!

This video would have a dual function: verify how good the MSO version of the new Rigol 7000 series is, and at the same time educate about troubleshooting techniques using powerful protocol decoder and LA tools.

Of course the test should also verify how good the new analog front-end is (bandwidth, trigger implementation, jitter, noise level).

Rumours in the past indicated that Rigol engineers have no clue on how to properly implement the trigger circuitry, and that there actually is a fundamental flaw in the design.
Maybe the trigger implementation can be verified in the new Rigol 7000 series.

Another nice test would be to check if Rigol has a similar feature as Siglent to generate Bode diagrams on the oscilloscope, where the oscilloscope controls an external signal generator.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 01:23:41 am by pascal_sweden »
 

Online jjoonathan

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #87 on: July 05, 2018, 03:02:57 am »
Seconded. Rigol's 4000 series had a bug where serial decoding didn't work in segmented memory mode until years after release ::) , it would be good to know if there were any similar bugs in the 7000.

The 4000s also have annoying trigger UX, but AFAIK that's a result of the firmware and software, not the hardware. The hardware trigger works OK -- no sub-sample spacing but otherwise fine, and no clock jitter on trig out, so it's a real trigger rather than a GPIO abomination. The jankiness comes from the fact that its time offset isn't calibrated out in the FPGA so the software attempts a secondary digital trigger to nudge the trigger crossing a few ns to the specified trigger location. This works fine when the trigger is on-screen and not at all when it isn't. Also, for some reason, the software trigger isn't applied while scrolling, so on low ns/div the signal appears to hop between the uncalibrated hardware trigger and exact software trigger, which is frustrating. You can work around this problem by manually entering a timebase offset to calibrate out the trigger delay, but ugh.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 11:31:33 pm by jjoonathan »
 

Online 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2018, 08:36:45 am »
Dave! if your reading this?
Have Rigol made this new scope series available for test and tear down anytime soon with you?
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #89 on: July 17, 2018, 06:45:29 pm »
Yes, we are all waiting for this detailed review as per above description! :)
 

Offline hmlittle59

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #90 on: July 18, 2018, 01:24:42 am »
Hello All,

My 2 cents and recent observation.
 
I have a early Rigol DS2102, use only as needed for the pass 5+ years.  Software rarely updated and when I did Rigol Rep. was shocked at the version I had. Works great.  Still has over 1000 min. of trial code active. :-DD
Anyway...
Was looking to upgrade to the Rigol MSO4014 from TEquip. and the price was $ 3500.00 plus 2 Free Bundles of upgrades (Bandwidth and Trigger Code).
Well that price break and the Bandwidth are gone after the 7000 came out. :=\  Snooze you loose.  Now $3999.

Now I will also wait on Dave's REVIEW.

I may just go back and just get the upgrades for my DS2102 only once they run out and save a dollar or 2. :-// :-// :-//

Like I said...My 2cents and observation.

Howard


 

Offline annerajb

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2018, 12:59:23 pm »
Concur. Just found the DS7000 would like a few reviews from knowledgeable third parties.
 

Online 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #92 on: July 20, 2018, 08:49:55 am »
I keep Googling looking for DS7000 reviews from 3rd parties but find only Rigol and distributors posting the videos and specs.

You would think Rigol would have had this out to Dave and others to post reviews/teardowns to maximise their marketing for a new premium product they bill as being the match and better value than the current 'A' brand offerings.

Makes me wonder why we are not yet seeing reviews from the likes of EEVBlog etc?
 

Offline carl0s

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2018, 07:15:19 pm »
Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but one slightly disappointing thing, maybe, is that the 10 GSa/s  is, erm, muxed over all 4 channels. Whereas on other 4ch scopes, I think, it's just muxed across AB and CD.

So while it's 10GSa/s when using one channel, you can't do the trick of using CH1 and CH3 to still get the full sample rate.

e.g. on a ds1054z with 1GSa/s, you could use CH1 and CH3 and it won't split the sampling rate in half.

Sampling 4 channels on a DS1054z would give 500MSa/s per channel, and the DS7000 would give 2.5GSa/s.

I suppose it's still a minimum of 5x greater.
Using 1 channel it's 10x greater, any more than 1 channel, it's never more than 5x greater.
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Offline JPortici

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2018, 07:21:36 pm »
e.g. on a ds1054z with 1GSa/s, you could use CH1 and CH3 and it won't split the sampling rate in half.

Sampling 4 channels on a DS1054z would give 500MSa/s per channel, and the DS7000 would give 2.5GSa/s.

not at all. 1054z has a single ADC.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #95 on: July 20, 2018, 08:12:20 pm »
Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but one slightly disappointing thing, maybe, is that the 10 GSa/s  is, erm, muxed over all 4 channels. Whereas on other 4ch scopes, I think, it's just muxed across AB and CD.

So while it's 10GSa/s when using one channel, you can't do the trick of using CH1 and CH3 to still get the full sample rate.

e.g. on a ds1054z with 1GSa/s, you could use CH1 and CH3 and it won't split the sampling rate in half.

Sampling 4 channels on a DS1054z would give 500MSa/s per channel, and the DS7000 would give 2.5GSa/s.

I suppose it's still a minimum of 5x greater.
Using 1 channel it's 10x greater, any more than 1 channel, it's never more than 5x greater.

They all do that. At least you can have on ch with 10GS. All other have with 2x5GS shared over 4 channel(2.5 GS/ch), or 4x2.5 GS, or 1x5GS over 4ch (1.25 GS/ch)....
You have to go to a class higher scopes to have higher sample rates...
5x than analog bandwidth of input channel is absolutely perfect.
 

Offline carl0s

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #96 on: July 21, 2018, 01:29:46 am »
Ah fair enough. Maybe it's the sample memory then? I can't remember what it was, but something is split per bank of A/B and C/D.
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Offline carl0s

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #97 on: July 21, 2018, 02:06:01 am »
Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but one slightly disappointing thing, maybe, is that the 10 GSa/s  is, erm, muxed over all 4 channels. Whereas on other 4ch scopes, I think, it's just muxed across AB and CD.

So while it's 10GSa/s when using one channel, you can't do the trick of using CH1 and CH3 to still get the full sample rate.

e.g. on a ds1054z with 1GSa/s, you could use CH1 and CH3 and it won't split the sampling rate in half.

Sampling 4 channels on a DS1054z would give 500MSa/s per channel, and the DS7000 would give 2.5GSa/s.

I suppose it's still a minimum of 5x greater.
Using 1 channel it's 10x greater, any more than 1 channel, it's never more than 5x greater.

They all do that. At least you can have on ch with 10GS. All other have with 2x5GS shared over 4 channel(2.5 GS/ch), or 4x2.5 GS, or 1x5GS over 4ch (1.25 GS/ch)....
You have to go to a class higher scopes to have higher sample rates...
5x than analog bandwidth of input channel is absolutely perfect.

Hmm I guess I've got confused somewhere along the way, but the Siglent 4ch scopes have 2x ADC and 2x storage over the 2ch scopes. I just watched Dave's teardown of the DS1054z again and I see all 4 channels go into the same ADC.
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Carl
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #98 on: July 21, 2018, 05:34:32 am »
They have dual 1Gs/sec that is 500MS/sec per ch... I think 10GS/sec divided by 4 is still 2,5GS/sec per channel..
And it has 100/250/500 Msamples memory divided by 4. Keysight DSOX3000T has 4Msamples...
 

Online tautech

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #99 on: July 21, 2018, 06:55:56 am »
Hmm I guess I've got confused somewhere along the way, but the Siglent 4ch scopes have 2x ADC and 2x storage over the 2ch scopes. I just watched Dave's teardown of the DS1054z again and I see all 4 channels go into the same ADC.
Yes, that's the point of difference and the reason for the higher price......2 ADC's.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline carl0s

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #100 on: July 21, 2018, 08:29:57 am »
How does this look against the R & S with the capacitive touch screen and fluent interface? 3004 or whatever it is? I think bigger screen with less laggy interface and general fluency is what would draw me into buying the 100MHz version of this. and hackability of course :)
The Rigol looks to be much better value with more memory. We just need to see if the interface is good. Even though I have no genuine need or use for it, I could see myself buying one of these just for the general tool-addiction satisfaction.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 08:33:51 am by carl0s »
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #101 on: July 24, 2018, 04:04:08 am »
Has Rigol approached you already about this new DS/MSO 7000 series Dave?
 

Online 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #102 on: July 24, 2018, 08:06:00 am »
It would appear to me that Rigol has not made this new scope available in the field yet for 3rd party testing!

Begs the question, why!!!!!!!

I cant find an independent review anywhere on line. Its got me thinking the new scope may have some teething, (or worse) problems and they need time to arrange a fix?

Why else would Rigol keep such a well spec'd meter featuring their new ASIC away from independent reviews. Marketing test instruments like this without reviews means loss of sales to other brands. I dont understand Rigol's delay in getting scopes out the door for review, maybe a Rigol representative would like to comment?
 

Online John South

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #103 on: July 24, 2018, 01:06:36 pm »
Hi All - Just a heads up that we (Emona Instruments) are getting one of these in for Dave to review. It will be here pretty soon and I'm just contacting Dave now. For any Australian and New Zealand people interested we also have local demonstration units available - any interest in seeing one please PM me .
Disclosure : I work for Emona Instruments. We are a supplier of T&M equipment in Australia and are the Australian Distributors for Rigol. www.emona.com.au/rigol
 
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Online 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #104 on: July 24, 2018, 04:14:45 pm »
Hi All - Just a heads up that we (Emona Instruments) are getting one of these in for Dave to review. It will be here pretty soon and I'm just contacting Dave now. For any Australian and New Zealand people interested we also have local demonstration units available - any interest in seeing one please PM me .

Thats great news!
I'm looking forward to finding out more about the Scope and no better way than a review from EEVBlog!
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #105 on: July 24, 2018, 11:27:10 pm »
The actual review should be detailed and not be fluffy!

When is Dave Jones going to review the MSO version of the new Rigol 7000 series?

In this review I would like to see an extensive real world protocol decoder test and Logic Analyzer test.

The test should test the speed when using full memory depth, and should verify if the protocol decoding is really done in hardware.

One should also make a long memory capture, and search in the long memory capture to verify how easy it is to search within a long trace.

Maybe use an actual PCB board of a commercial product, where I2C, SPI, CAN signals are present, and perform a real world protocol decoder test and Logic Analyzer test.
Perform a real world troubleshooting session, to put the product to a real world test!

This video would have a dual function: verify how good the MSO version of the new Rigol 7000 series is, and at the same time educate about troubleshooting techniques using powerful protocol decoder and LA tools.

Of course the test should also verify how good the new analog front-end is (bandwidth, trigger implementation, jitter, noise level).

Rumours in the past indicated that Rigol engineers have no clue on how to properly implement the trigger circuitry, and that there actually is a fundamental flaw in the design.
Maybe the trigger implementation can be verified in the new Rigol 7000 series.

Another nice test would be to check if Rigol has a similar feature as Siglent to generate Bode diagrams on the oscilloscope, where the oscilloscope controls an external signal generator.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #106 on: July 25, 2018, 04:25:12 am »
The actual review should be detailed and not be fluffy!

When is Dave Jones going to review the MSO version of the new Rigol 7000 series?

In this review I would like to see an extensive real world protocol decoder test and Logic Analyzer test.

The test should test the speed when using full memory depth, and should verify if the protocol decoding is really done in hardware.

One should also make a long memory capture, and search in the long memory capture to verify how easy it is to search within a long trace.

Maybe use an actual PCB board of a commercial product, where I2C, SPI, CAN signals are present, and perform a real world protocol decoder test and Logic Analyzer test.
Perform a real world troubleshooting session, to put the product to a real world test!

This video would have a dual function: verify how good the MSO version of the new Rigol 7000 series is, and at the same time educate about troubleshooting techniques using powerful protocol decoder and LA tools.

Of course the test should also verify how good the new analog front-end is (bandwidth, trigger implementation, jitter, noise level).

Rumours in the past indicated that Rigol engineers have no clue on how to properly implement the trigger circuitry, and that there actually is a fundamental flaw in the design.
Maybe the trigger implementation can be verified in the new Rigol 7000 series.

Another nice test would be to check if Rigol has a similar feature as Siglent to generate Bode diagrams on the oscilloscope, where the oscilloscope controls an external signal generator.
Such a thourough review takes a lot of time (I've been down that road before a couple of times) and doesn't lend itself well for video. I think Dave will take it apart and do a quick tour on how it works in general (and that's probably it). The teardown will be kinda interesting but not something you'd use for a purchase decission.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #107 on: July 25, 2018, 05:49:27 pm »
Such a thourough review takes a lot of time (I've been down that road before a couple of times) and doesn't lend itself well for video. I think Dave will take it apart and do a quick tour on how it works in general (and that's probably it). The teardown will be kinda interesting but not something you'd use for a purchase decission.

Emona Instruments clearly state they will be making the DS7000 available to Dave for a review. There is a clear expectation that Dave will review the product and I'm sure he will also do a teardown while he is at it!
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #108 on: July 25, 2018, 11:18:05 pm »
Such a great and marvelous piece of equipment deserves a great and marvelous review!
 

Offline Old Printer

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #109 on: July 26, 2018, 02:54:59 am »
Since Dave did the quick teardown of the Siglent 1104X-E 8 months ago he has not seriously revisited this scope. I know when he did the Rigol 1054Z it was a market changing release and he did a couple (2 plus a dedicated summary) indepth reviews of it. Since I am in the market for a low budget 4 channel scope I am disappointed at not seeing a more serious follow up of the Siglent. I know Dave is more of a hardware guy than software, and most of the changes to the Siglent have been soft/firmware. I am quite interested in seeing how he treats this Rigol 7000D, in what seems a fairly substantial release from them. Will he give it the indepth 2-3 video attention he gave the 1054Z? Is he getting away from dissecting equipment that deeply? I know there have been a good number of other YouTube reviews of the Siglent 1104, but Dave has been kind of the standard I use to judge the others by. Even though this scope is way out of my market, it's design and components may trickle down to the hobby level I am at.
 

Online jjoonathan

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2018, 10:21:48 am »
 :scared:
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 10:26:12 am by jjoonathan »
 

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #111 on: July 28, 2018, 01:08:12 am »
Since Dave did the quick teardown of the Siglent 1104X-E 8 months ago he has not seriously revisited this scope. I know when he did the Rigol 1054Z it was a market changing release and he did a couple (2 plus a dedicated summary) indepth reviews of it. Since I am in the market for a low budget 4 channel scope I am disappointed at not seeing a more serious follow up of the Siglent. I know Dave is more of a hardware guy than software, and most of the changes to the Siglent have been soft/firmware. I am quite interested in seeing how he treats this Rigol 7000D, in what seems a fairly substantial release from them. Will he give it the indepth 2-3 video attention he gave the 1054Z? Is he getting away from dissecting equipment that deeply? I know there have been a good number of other YouTube reviews of the Siglent 1104, but Dave has been kind of the standard I use to judge the others by. Even though this scope is way out of my market, it's design and components may trickle down to the hobby level I am at.

As for videos I'd expect a teardown video and nothing more. He barely touched the R&S scopes other than for demonstrating problems.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #112 on: July 28, 2018, 01:58:50 am »
What interests me most about the DS7000 is how many CPU horsepower it has under the hood to process signals. This is where oscilloscopes (cheap and expensive) usually fall flat on their face with very few exceptions. The DS7000 is likely to be a bugfest for at least the first few years but with a decent amount of CPU power there is at least some potential.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 03:43:09 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #113 on: July 28, 2018, 06:04:59 am »
Maybe, but even in Rigol's demo videos the FFT is a dog.
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #114 on: July 28, 2018, 10:42:33 am »
Looks like Tek, Keysight and others might have a bit of catching up to do. The days of charging megabucks for a mid level scope might be over now that the chinese have moved into this segment. But then doesn't the Tek MDO3000 come bundled with a spectrum analyser ?

cheers

« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 10:44:20 am by snoopy »
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #115 on: July 28, 2018, 11:44:22 am »
Maybe, but even in Rigol's demo videos the FFT is a dog.

Which demo is that? The one I saw made it look pretty impressive at first glance, but was static so hard to really conclude anything.
 

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #116 on: July 28, 2018, 11:50:40 am »
You can judge here: https://youtu.be/zrfG9wtQjh0?t=98

The big color-graded FM demo was static for a reason  ::)
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #117 on: July 28, 2018, 01:09:09 pm »
FYI, I should be getting one early this week. I believe it's the 500MHz model, but I assume the hardware is the same. I haven't looked into details.
 

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #118 on: July 28, 2018, 02:19:22 pm »
FYI, I should be getting one early this week. I believe it's the 500MHz model, but I assume the hardware is the same. I haven't looked into details.
I'm looking forward to your review!
You must be the first outside of Rigol and its Distributors to get your hands on one!
Will it be a hackable upgrade and does it perform, can't wait to watch the video.
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #119 on: July 28, 2018, 02:49:39 pm »
You can judge here: https://youtu.be/zrfG9wtQjh0?t=98

The big color-graded FM demo was static for a reason  ::)

You mean the slow refresh? But isnt that just because its being triggered externally by the spec an?
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #120 on: July 28, 2018, 03:18:29 pm »
I agree with nctnico.. Don't see a point. If you're spending $3K+ on a scope chances are you're not a hobbyist. And as such you should get a proper scope from one of the big boys.

Rigol's UI alone makes me want to pull my hair out. No way would I put up with it if money wasn't tight, which if you're getting one of these 7K ones, it isn't. Not to mention all the bugs.
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #121 on: July 28, 2018, 04:27:34 pm »
I agree with nctnico.. Don't see a point. If you're spending $3K+ on a scope chances are you're not a hobbyist. And as such you should get a proper scope from one of the big boys.

Rigol's UI alone makes me want to pull my hair out. No way would I put up with it if money wasn't tight, which if you're getting one of these 7K ones, it isn't. Not to mention all the bugs.

The price of the lowest end model is a mere $400 more than the list price of the, rather old now, DS4014. And it has much better specs.
Quite a few of us have those DS4k scopes.

It might turn out to be rubbish, will be interested to see what Dave thinks. But right now it looks pretty good.

And with a bit of luck the big boys will be forced to release something decent to compete, like last time. It's a win win for hobbyists.
 

Offline timgiles

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #122 on: July 28, 2018, 05:43:20 pm »
I agree, looking like the UI is responsive throughout the video - only that it is waiting for a trigger event to occur.

You can judge here: https://youtu.be/zrfG9wtQjh0?t=98

The big color-graded FM demo was static for a reason  ::)

You mean the slow refresh? But isnt that just because its being triggered externally by the spec an?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #123 on: July 28, 2018, 05:59:59 pm »
Looks like Tek, Keysight and others might have a bit of catching up to do. The days of charging megabucks for a mid level scope might be over now that the chinese have moved into this segment. But then doesn't the Tek MDO3000 come bundled with a spectrum analyser ?
The devil is in the details. I went down this road before thinking a 'cheaper' Chinese scope would perform equally well based on specs on paper but it didn't and I ended up wasting a few k euro.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #124 on: July 28, 2018, 08:21:43 pm »
I agree, looking like the UI is responsive throughout the video - only that it is waiting for a trigger event to occur.

You can judge here: https://youtu.be/zrfG9wtQjh0?t=98

The big color-graded FM demo was static for a reason  ::)

You mean the slow refresh? But isnt that just because its being triggered externally by the spec an?

And also, that is on a 125 Megasamples... Not  32kS, not 4MS.. So that looks interesting.

It seems a very promising hardware. It will drill down to bugs. If it won't be buggy then a good scope.
As far as U/I goes, that's personal preference..

From what I could see browsing through the manual, it has many good things.

The problems I see:
  • One thing I don't like is that in manual math seems very rudimentary. The way it is described in manual it doesn't have advanced mode, meaning arbitrary math. That means math, as described, is on the level of ds100Z not ds4000. That's not good.
  • Math source can be only channel and ref. No math to math piping. R&S RTM3000 does it right.
  • Because of 2. you cannot perform FFT on math. That would be awesome. Picoscope, R&S RTM3000, Tek MDO3000/4000 and others can do it...
  • On all list/table based U/I elements, use of screen estate is inefficient. Lots of small windows in the middle of the screen,overlapping over other important data, no docking... R&S is doing it right, Lecroy too.  Keysight is kinda OK.
I'm sure if I played with it for some time I would find more things that are suboptimal for a scope that wants to be midrange..
 

Online jjoonathan

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #125 on: July 28, 2018, 10:52:35 pm »
I agree, looking like the UI is responsive throughout the video - only that it is waiting for a trigger event to occur.

I'm looking at the considerable delay between the trace appearing and the FFT updating. It's a good fraction of a second.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #126 on: July 29, 2018, 12:40:34 am »
I agree, looking like the UI is responsive throughout the video - only that it is waiting for a trigger event to occur.

I'm looking at the considerable delay between the trace appearing and the FFT updating. It's a good fraction of a second.

It says 125 Mega samples....  so it's probably not a 32k FFT..
 
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Offline carl0s

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #127 on: July 29, 2018, 01:00:39 am »
I agree, looking like the UI is responsive throughout the video - only that it is waiting for a trigger event to occur.

You can judge here: https://youtu.be/zrfG9wtQjh0?t=98

The big color-graded FM demo was static for a reason  ::)

You mean the slow refresh? But isnt that just because its being triggered externally by the spec an?

And also, that is on a 125 Megasamples... Not  32kS, not 4MS.. So that looks interesting.

It seems a very promising hardware. It will drill down to bugs. If it won't be buggy then a good scope.
As far as U/I goes, that's personal preference..

From what I could see browsing through the manual, it has many good things.

The problems I see:
  • One thing I don't like is that in manual math seems very rudimentary. The way it is described in manual it doesn't have advanced mode, meaning arbitrary math. That means math, as described, is on the level of ds100Z not ds4000. That's not good.
  • Math source can be only channel and ref. No math to math piping. R&S RTM3000 does it right.
  • Because of 2. you cannot perform FFT on math. That would be awesome. Picoscope, R&S RTM3000, Tek MDO3000/4000 and others can do it...
  • On all list/table based U/I elements, use of screen estate is inefficient. Lots of small windows in the middle of the screen,overlapping over other important data, no docking... R&S is doing it right, Lecroy too.  Keysight is kinda OK.
I'm sure if I played with it for some time I would find more things that are suboptimal for a scope that wants to be midrange..

and those god damn button shapes. I can't un-see it now on my DS1054Z. There's no logic to it at all. I think I have been able to fathom out some of the sort of symmetry that has made them choose which corners to chop off which buttons, but it's utterly insane and no other equipment has weird randomly shaped buttons.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #128 on: July 29, 2018, 01:05:53 am »
and those god damn button shapes. I can't un-see it now on my DS1054Z. There's no logic to it at all. I think I have been able to fathom out some of the sort of symmetry that has made them choose which corners to chop off which buttons, but it's utterly insane and no other equipment has weird randomly shaped buttons.

You won't even see them after it's been on your bench for two days.

 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #129 on: July 29, 2018, 01:24:13 am »
and those god damn button shapes. I can't un-see it now on my DS1054Z. There's no logic to it at all. I think I have been able to fathom out some of the sort of symmetry that has made them choose which corners to chop off which buttons, but it's utterly insane and no other equipment has weird randomly shaped buttons.

Yeah, while i kinda agree with you it is not some fancy design, i couldn't care less. It's a tool...
I personally think design (apart from ergonomics) is being given too much attention ( ^-^ ).. I abhor form over function...
I DO care about clear logical layout, that support hierarchy of instruments menus and functions...
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #130 on: July 30, 2018, 06:30:06 pm »
This scope has performance in spades. The established brands should be worried. I recall that it was going to be released at last years Electronex show in Melb but was held back. Looks like they spent a year ironing out the bugs before they were going to make it public. From the videos and comparison to the TEK MDO3000 it looks quite impressive.

cheers
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #131 on: July 30, 2018, 06:43:55 pm »
I agree, looking like the UI is responsive throughout the video - only that it is waiting for a trigger event to occur.

I'm looking at the considerable delay between the trace appearing and the FFT updating. It's a good fraction of a second.

Hmm, yes there is something going on there.
 

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #132 on: July 30, 2018, 06:57:59 pm »
With 8bit input you get 8bit output. Any advanced math co-processor or any fastest ASIC cannot change that..
Any band filtering, even decimation using an elementary boxcar filter, will enhance precision.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #133 on: July 30, 2018, 07:31:34 pm »
With 8bit input you get 8bit output. Any advanced math co-processor or any fastest ASIC cannot change that..
Any band filtering, even decimation using an elementary boxcar filter, will enhance precision.
Not at all. You may get more resolution but only if there is enough noise AND the ADCs are linear (which they aren't) otherwise you'll see a fantasy signal.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #134 on: August 05, 2018, 04:40:04 am »
I am looking formward to the review. https://twitter.com/eevblog/status/1024170698275618817
It is already online.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 07:09:30 am by Hydrawerk »
Amazing machines. http://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 
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Offline imo

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #135 on: August 05, 2018, 10:23:27 pm »
With 8bit input you get 8bit output. Any advanced math co-processor or any fastest ASIC cannot change that..
Any band filtering, even decimation using an elementary boxcar filter, will enhance precision.
Not at all. You may get more resolution but only if there is enough noise AND the ADCs are linear (which they aren't) otherwise you'll see a fantasy signal.
There are some basic laws of physics which, as of today and in this Universe, still apply. You get samples with 8bits of amplitude "V", and, you get them the time "T" apart. Creating any other better values out of these 2 is just the "fantasy", correct.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 10:37:25 pm by imo »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #136 on: August 06, 2018, 01:02:56 am »
With 8bit input you get 8bit output. Any advanced math co-processor or any fastest ASIC cannot change that..
Any band filtering, even decimation using an elementary boxcar filter, will enhance precision.
Not at all. You may get more resolution but only if there is enough noise AND the ADCs are linear (which they aren't) otherwise you'll see a fantasy signal.
There are some basic laws of physics which, as of today and in this Universe, still apply. You get samples with 8bits of amplitude "V", and, you get them the time "T" apart. Creating any other better values out of these 2 is just the "fantasy", correct.

E... No.

(don't attack me for lack of mathematical rigor here... it is deliberate)

If you do have A/D converter that is 8 bits for example, and very linear and monotonic (it has accurate step).  And you have signal that is right between two steps, what you get on the output?
Signal will have a certain amount of noise in it, and if it is random noise, you will get random rounding to lower and upper value on output of A/D converter. In a 100 samples, average of those 100 samples would be pretty much exactly in between bits. If signal was a little lower, you would get more flicking to low value and less on high value.
In a way it would look like a PWM modulation between two bits, and average of several measurements would converge to a true value, to an accuracy higher that A/D has.

Sometimes noise is deliberately introduced, that's called dithering.

It is valid technique, but has limitations. 

EDIT: Sorry I pressed something and it got posted before I was finished.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 01:12:30 am by 2N3055 »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #137 on: August 06, 2018, 01:11:16 am »
With 8bit input you get 8bit output. Any advanced math co-processor or any fastest ASIC cannot change that..
Any band filtering, even decimation using an elementary boxcar filter, will enhance precision.
Not at all. You may get more resolution but only if there is enough noise AND the ADCs are linear (which they aren't) otherwise you'll see a fantasy signal.
There are some basic laws of physics which, as of today and in this Universe, still apply. You get samples with 8bits of amplitude "V", and, you get them the time "T" apart. Creating any other better values out of these 2 is just the "fantasy", correct.

E... NO.

(don't attack me for lack of mathematical rigor here... it is deliberate)

If you do have A/D converter that is 8 bits for example, and very linear and monotonic (it has accurate step).  And you have signal that is right between two steps, what you get on the output?
Signal will have a certain amount of noise in it, and if it is random noise, you will get random rounding to lower and upper value on output of A/D converter. In a 100 samples, average of those 100 samples would be pretty much exactly in between bits. If signal was a little lower, you would get more flicking to low value and less on high value.
In a way it would look like a PWM modulation between two bits, and average of several measurements would converge to a true value, to an accuracy higher that A/D
First of all the noise will need to have a higher amplitude than 1 LSB, secondly that noise would need to have a perfect Gaussian distribution. In reality 8 bit ADCs are made to have 8 bits. Any extra linearity is just a waste of money & effort because that is not the goal (IF it is even possible to get the extra linearity).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #138 on: August 06, 2018, 08:48:24 pm »
It could have been a nice order configuration option from Rigol that the user can select a Matte display or Glossy display upon ordering the oscilloscope.

Some people prefer Glossy, while other people hate it. In fact I personally prefer Matte display so much better, as the reflections on a Glossy display can make the oscilloscope display useless in some lab environments.

Or if it is too hard to implement a configuration option, why not just stick with a Matte display which works for most people?

What do other people on this forum think about this? Why would one like to have a Glossy display in the first place? Is there any advantage at all, or is it really only a disadvantage as such?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 08:51:17 pm by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #139 on: August 06, 2018, 09:00:21 pm »
Glossy screens are crap. There is no option where they are better that matte... Glossy is cheap multimedia crap that is so ubiquitous because tablets use them.  Which would be so much better with matte screens too.  And matte screens show less smudges from fingerprints ...
I guess  it needs additional cost to make matte screen and apply anti reflective coating.
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #141 on: August 06, 2018, 10:08:13 pm »
Absolutely they could... And they should come already laminated on screen from factory....
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #142 on: August 06, 2018, 10:27:57 pm »
Anybody in touch here with senior management from Rigol? Please make them talk to 3M management for a good bulk rate on factory mounted anti-glare filters! :)
 

Offline bugi

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #143 on: August 07, 2018, 12:15:16 am »
Glossy screens are crap. There is no option where they are better that matte... Glossy is cheap multimedia crap that is so ubiquitous because tablets use them.  Which would be so much better with matte screens too.  And matte screens show less smudges from fingerprints ...
I guess  it needs additional cost to make matte screen and apply anti reflective coating.
Uh, my experience so far has been such that matte screens are a nightmare to clean from fingerprints (or any smudges) and the fingerprints show up just as well as on glossy (until you try to wipe them off; glossy gets clean in single wipe, matte just gets worse and needs microfiber and soap water and still needs half a minute of gentle wiping). All the way to the point of getting permanent marks on my anti-reflection coating of one of my displays, because it seems impossible to get whatever crap ended up in the microscopic pits... Also, most matte surfaces are, afaik, based on some form of plastic/non-hard material, which means that if you use it as a touchscreen, it will not be nice even matte for long (e.g. the most used spots on a matte-surfaced keyboards get glossy in less than couple years, and the spots that get hit by fingernails much faster).

There must be a reason why majority of touchscreens are glossy, even on the most expensive high end devices, which could (and would) use more expensive choices. Best examples are some expensive laptop models which offered both touch and non-touch display versions; the touch ones were always glossy, non-touch ones had always anti-reflection.

For non-touch displays I always choose some anti-reflection stuff, but touch ones... until they can figure out a type that can last years without getting wear marks and a method to clean them properly, glossy it is for me.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #144 on: August 07, 2018, 12:45:02 am »
I have two touch screen scopes with glossy screens and it really is not an issue at all.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline carl0s

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #145 on: August 07, 2018, 05:45:53 am »
I am looking formward to the review. https://twitter.com/eevblog/status/1024170698275618817
It is already online.


Yes you're right Dave, that physical interface is a complete.. a complete failure.

My DS1054Z is bad, but that has twice as much of everything. It extends into the square corners and face of the housing itself.

FFS Rigol, soften the edges of everything. Make buttons square with slightly radiused corners, or just round, maybe with a convex front, orient all the text horizontally, and don't mix conflicting of fonts.
If a button says "Back" on it, give it an arrow pointing to the left (back), not an arrow pointing up.

I know it's not of primary importance, but it's pretty important. It's like decent spelling and grammar in business.
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Carl
 

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #146 on: August 07, 2018, 07:11:28 am »
Not true. With 8Bits resolution on paper, you will get quite less bits in reality, due to noise, nonlinearity and other issues.
The ENOB value should be compared. The RIGOL does not even have this specified (prove me wrong). I guess that its about 6-7Bits across full bandwidth, not more.
 

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #147 on: August 08, 2018, 07:23:51 am »
I cant help the impression that the discussion here focusses a bit much on aspects of aesthetics and product exterior design and not so much on the features and specs of the unit. The same thing happened with other equipment like the RIGOL electronic load, e.g.  There were serious flaws, but the majority of the review minutes spent was on design aspects if button should be labeled left to right or if backwards slanted characters should be allowed by law. This, IMHO, is the wrong priority for a technical forum (dont get me wrong - I dont like their design too much myself - but I dont think it is the most important thing to talk about in such overwhelming detail).

So, I suggest to focus on features, compliance to specs, bugs, usability, reliability, ... first, and then all the aesthetic aspects. If handled the other way such a thread gets filled with gossip because everyone has a different taste.  :)


 
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Online 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #148 on: August 08, 2018, 07:35:24 am »
So, I suggest to focus on features, compliance to specs, bugs, usability, reliability, ... first, and then all the aesthetic aspects. If handled the other way such a thread gets filled with gossip because everyone has a different taste.  :)
I agree with your observation! The thing is though, all we have so far is Dave's first impression of the scope. He is about to perform the teardown and then the review later. So really this being the first 3rd party review on the internet we are all waiting on the details of this scope to be revealed.

The real strengths and weaknesses are yet to to be revealed and I for one am curious if Rigol have made a step up with this new scope.
 

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #149 on: August 08, 2018, 04:01:30 pm »
Boot output:

Code: [Select]


U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty (2018.03.27 - 15:01:25)

I2C:   ready
Memory: ECC disabled
DRAM:  448 MiB
DPU:   20170604
NAND:  OnDie ECC supported, 1024 MiB
zynq-In:    serial
zynq-Out:   serial
zynq-Err:   serial
Net:   Gem.e000b000
BootParam=0x0
Hit any key to stop autoboot:  0

NAND read: device 0 offset 0xd900000, size 0x3591fd
þ
NAND read: device 0 offset 0xd900000, size 0x8
 8 bytes read: OK

NAND read: device 0 offset 0xd500000, size 0x12c008
 1228808 bytes read: OK
Loading logo, x=310,y=247,width=404,height=89

NAND read: device 0 offset 0xe100000, size 0xd8d690
 14210704 bytes read: OK
## Loading kernel from FIT Image at 03000000 ...
   Using 'rootfs@1' configuration
   Trying 'kernel@1' kernel subimage
     Description:  Flamingo Linux kernel
     Type:         Kernel Image
     Compression:  uncompressed
     Data Start:   0x030000f8
     Data Size:    3296960 Bytes = 3.1 MiB
     Architecture: ARM
     OS:           Linux
     Load Address: 0x00100000
     Entry Point:  0x00100000
     Hash algo:    sha1
     Hash value:   3baba24f03cf5590e2c536eaa322b6dba603dabf
   Verifying Hash Integrity ... sha1+ OK
## Loading ramdisk from FIT Image at 03000000 ...
   Using 'rootfs@1' configuration
   Trying 'ramdisk@1' ramdisk subimage
     Description:  Flamingo-Update-Ramdisk
     Type:         RAMDisk Image
     Compression:  gzip compressed
     Data Start:   0x033276fc
     Data Size:    10901113 Bytes = 10.4 MiB
     Architecture: ARM
     OS:           Linux
     Load Address: unavailable
     Entry Point:  unavailable
     Hash algo:    sha1
     Hash value:   55bdcbebccba845da403130143793ee0135e53a1
   Verifying Hash Integrity ... sha1+ OK
## Loading fdt from FIT Image at 03000000 ...
   Using 'rootfs@1' configuration
   Trying 'fdt@1' fdt subimage
     Description:  Flattened Device Tree blob
     Type:         Flat Device Tree
     Compression:  uncompressed
     Data Start:   0x033250ac
     Data Size:    9613 Bytes = 9.4 KiB
     Architecture: ARM
     Hash algo:    sha1
     Hash value:   4b3f2131fa7fc01da8110e0b15068def40b971c5
   Verifying Hash Integrity ... sha1+ OK
   Booting using the fdt blob at 0x33250ac
   Loading Kernel Image ... OK
   Loading Ramdisk to 1b099000, end 1bafe679 ... OK
   Loading Device Tree to 1b093000, end 1b09858c ... OK

Starting kernel ...

Uncompressing Linux... done, booting the kernel.
Booting Linux on physical CPU 0x0
Linux version 3.12.0-xilinx (rigolee[member=167213]Jim[/member]) (gcc version 4.8.1 (Sourcery CodeBench Lite 2013.11-53) ) #35 SMP PREEMPT Tue May 22 17:58:17 CST 2018
CPU: ARMv7 Processor [413fc090] revision 0 (ARMv7), cr=18c5387d
CPU: PIPT / VIPT nonaliasing data cache, VIPT aliasing instruction cache
Machine: Xilinx Zynq Platform, model: Xilinx Zynq
Memory policy: Data cache writealloc
PERCPU: Embedded 8 pages/cpu @c09ef000 s8384 r8192 d16192 u32768
Built 1 zonelists in Zone order, mobility grouping on.  Total pages: 113792
Kernel command line: console=ttyPS0,115200 no_console_suspend, root=/dev/ram rw
PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 1, 8192 bytes)
Dentry cache hash table entries: 65536 (order: 6, 262144 bytes)
Inode-cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, 131072 bytes)
Memory: 437424K/458752K available (4185K kernel code, 255K rwdata, 1716K rodata, 176K init, 178K bss, 21328K reserved, 0K highmem)
Virtual kernel memory layout:
    vector  : 0xffff0000 - 0xffff1000   (   4 kB)
    fixmap  : 0xfff00000 - 0xfffe0000   ( 896 kB)
    vmalloc : 0xdc800000 - 0xff000000   ( 552 MB)
    lowmem  : 0xc0000000 - 0xdc000000   ( 448 MB)
    pkmap   : 0xbfe00000 - 0xc0000000   (   2 MB)
    modules : 0xbf000000 - 0xbfe00000   (  14 MB)
      .text : 0xc0008000 - 0xc05cb76c   (5902 kB)
      .init : 0xc05cc000 - 0xc05f80c0   ( 177 kB)
      .data : 0xc05fa000 - 0xc0639d78   ( 256 kB)
       .bss : 0xc0639d84 - 0xc0666924   ( 179 kB)
Preemptible hierarchical RCU implementation.
Dump stacks of tasks blocking RCU-preempt GP.
RCU restricting CPUs from NR_CPUS=4 to nr_cpu_ids=2.
NR_IRQS:16 nr_irqs:16 16
ps7-slcr mapped to dc802000
Zynq clock init
sched_clock: 32 bits at 100 Hz, resolution 10000000ns, wraps every 4294967286ms
Console: colour dummy device 80x30
Calibrating delay loop... 1731.78 BogoMIPS (lpj=8658944)
pid_max: default: 32768 minimum: 301
Mount-cache hash table entries: 512
CPU: Testing write buffer coherency: ok
CPU0: thread -1, cpu 0, socket 0, mpidr 80000000
Setting up static identity map for 0xc03f7df0 - 0xc03f7e48
L310 cache controller enabled
l2x0: 8 ways, CACHE_ID 0x410000c8, AUX_CTRL 0x72360000, Cache size: 512 kB
CPU1: Booted secondary processor
CPU1: thread -1, cpu 1, socket 0, mpidr 80000001
Brought up 2 CPUs
SMP: Total of 2 processors activated.
CPU: All CPU(s) started in SVC mode.
devtmpfs: initialized
VFP support v0.3: implementor 41 architecture 3 part 30 variant 9 rev 4
regulator-dummy: no parameters
NET: Registered protocol family 16
DMA: preallocated 256 KiB pool for atomic coherent allocations
gpio->base_addr is:0xdc84e000
The gpio irq num is:52
zynq_gpio e000a000.ps7-gpio: gpio at 0xe000a000 mapped to 0xdc84e000
hw-breakpoint: found 5 (+1 reserved) breakpoint and 1 watchpoint registers.
hw-breakpoint: maximum watchpoint size is 4 bytes.
zynq_ocm f800c000.ps7-ocmc: ZYNQ OCM pool: 256 KiB @ 0xdc880000
bio: create slab <bio-0> at 0
vgaarb: loaded
SCSI subsystem initialized
usbcore: registered new interface driver usbfs
usbcore: registered new interface driver hub
usbcore: registered new device driver usb
pps_core: LinuxPPS API ver. 1 registered
pps_core: Software ver. 5.3.6 - Copyright 2005-2007 Rodolfo Giometti <giometti[member=183778]linux[/member].it>
PTP clock support registered
EDAC MC: Ver: 3.0.0
NET: Registered protocol family 2
TCP established hash table entries: 4096 (order: 3, 32768 bytes)
TCP bind hash table entries: 4096 (order: 3, 32768 bytes)
TCP: Hash tables configured (established 4096 bind 4096)
TCP: reno registered
UDP hash table entries: 256 (order: 1, 8192 bytes)
UDP-Lite hash table entries: 256 (order: 1, 8192 bytes)
NET: Registered protocol family 1
RPC: Registered named UNIX socket transport module.
RPC: Registered udp transport module.
RPC: Registered tcp transport module.
RPC: Registered tcp NFSv4.1 backchannel transport module.
Trying to unpack rootfs image as initramfs...
rootfs image is not initramfs (no cpio magic); looks like an initrd
Freeing initrd memory: 10644K (db099000 - dbafe000)
hw perfevents: enabled with ARMv7 Cortex-A9 PMU driver, 7 counters available
NTFS driver 2.1.30 [Flags: R/W].
msgmni has been set to 875
io scheduler noop registered
io scheduler deadline registered
io scheduler cfq registered (default)
DPU:Map vRam to 0xdca00000
DPU:Map iReg to 0xdcc00000
DPU:Ver=0x20170604
dma-pl330 f8003000.ps7-dma: unable to set the seg size
dma-pl330 f8003000.ps7-dma: Loaded driver for PL330 DMAC-2364208
dma-pl330 f8003000.ps7-dma: DBUFF-128x8bytes Num_Chans-8 Num_Peri-4 Num_Events-16
e0000000.serial: ttyPS0 at MMIO 0xe0000000 (irq = 59, base_baud = 6249999) is a xuartps
console [ttyPS0] enabled
xuartps e0001000.serial: failed to get alias id, errno -19
e0001000.serial: ttyPS1 at MMIO 0xe0001000 (irq = 82, base_baud = 6249999) is a xuartps
brd: module loaded
loop: module loaded
xspips e0006000.ps7-spi: master is unqueued, this is deprecated
xspips e0006000.ps7-spi: at 0xE0006000 mapped to 0xDC858000, irq=58
libphy: XEMACPS mii bus: probed
xemacps e000b000.ps7-ethernet: pdev->id -1, baseaddr 0xe000b000, irq 54
ehci_hcd: USB 2.0 'Enhanced' Host Controller (EHCI) Driver
ehci-pci: EHCI PCI platform driver
ULPI transceiver vendor/product ID 0x0424/0x0009
ULPI integrity check: passed.
ULPI transceiver vendor/product ID 0x0424/0x0009
ULPI integrity check: passed.
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: Xilinx PS USB EHCI Host Controller
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 1
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: irq 76, io mem 0x00000000
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: USB 2.0 started, EHCI 1.00
hub 1-0:1.0: USB hub found
hub 1-0:1.0: 1 port detected
usbcore: registered new interface driver usb-storage
mousedev: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice
i2c /dev entries driver
rtc-rx8010sj 0-0032: Update timer was detected
rtc-rx8010sj 0-0032: rtc core: registered rtc-rx8010sj as rtc0
xi2cps e0004000.ps7-i2c: 100 kHz mmio e0004000 irq 57
zynq-edac f8006000.ps7-ddrc: ecc not enabled
sdhci: Secure Digital Host Controller Interface driver
sdhci: Copyright(c) Pierre Ossman
sdhci-pltfm: SDHCI platform and OF driver helper
usbcore: registered new interface driver usbhid
usbhid: USB HID core driver
ONFI param page 0 valid
ONFI flash detected
NAND device: Manufacturer ID: 0x2c, Chip ID: 0xd3 (Micron MT29F8G08ADADAH4), 1024MiB, page size: 2048, OOB size: 64
Bad block table found at page 524224, version 0x01
Bad block table found at page 524160, version 0x01
13 ofpart partitions found on MTD device pl353-nand
Creating 13 MTD partitions on "pl353-nand":
0x000000000000-0x000000040000 : "Env"
0x000000100000-0x000004100000 : "DATA"
0x000004100000-0x000004500000 : "Bmp"
0x000004500000-0x000004900000 : "Bmp1"
0x000004900000-0x000005100000 : "Bit1"
0x000005100000-0x000007100000 : "Sys1"
0x000007100000-0x00000d500000 : "App1"
0x00000d500000-0x00000d900000 : "Bmp2"
0x00000d900000-0x00000e100000 : "Bit2"
0x00000e100000-0x000010100000 : "Sys2"
0x000010100000-0x000016500000 : "App2"
0x000016500000-0x00001a800000 : "Reserved"
0x00001a800000-0x000040000000 : "User"
TCP: cubic registered
NET: Registered protocol family 17
Registering SWP/SWPB emulation handler
+-----------------------------------------+
|           Touch driver                |
+-----------------------------------------+
usb 1-1: new high-speed USB device number 2 using xusbps-ehci
hub 1-1:1.0: USB hub found
hub 1-1:1.0: 4 ports detected
Touchscreen ProductID: 0x2543
Touchscreen VersionID: 0x0102
input: ssd2543 as /devices/amba.1/e0004000.ps7-i2c/i2c-0/0-0048/input/input0
rtc-rx8010sj 0-0032: setting system clock to 2018-08-08 13:49:57 UTC (1533736197)
RAMDISK: gzip image found at block 0
VFS: Mounted root (ext2 filesystem) on device 1:0.
devtmpfs: mounted
Freeing unused kernel memory: 176K (c05cc000 - c05f8000)
Starting rcS...
++ Mounting filesystem
++ Setting up mdev
++ Starting ftp daemon
rcS Complete
[1B][1;31m<root@rigol>[1B][0mrpcbind: cannot create socket for udp6

rpcbind: cannot create socket for tcp6

2018-08-08 13:50:10: (log.c.166) server started
7 2048 16 2 "/dev/fb0"
 
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Offline imo

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #150 on: August 08, 2018, 04:12:19 pm »
Ok, it uses a dual core ARM CPU w/ 512MB of ram in a Xilinx Zynq FPGA
Quote
Xilinx Zynq Platform, model: Xilinx Zynq
SMP: Total of 2 processors activated.
So the new "Asic(s)" is most probably about front-ends/ADCs/sample_buffers/DSP only..
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 04:32:35 pm by imo »
 

Offline thn788

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #151 on: August 08, 2018, 04:40:45 pm »
Boot output:

Code: [Select]
...
CPU: ARMv7 Processor [413fc090] revision 0 (ARMv7), cr=18c5387d
...
l2x0: 8 ways, CACHE_ID 0x410000c8, AUX_CTRL 0x72360000, Cache size: 512 kB
...
Brought up 2 CPUs
SMP: Total of 2 processors activated.
...
Calibrating delay loop... 1731.78 BogoMIPS (lpj=8658944)
...

Apparently a Xilinx Zynq with Dual-Cortex-A9 and 512 KB L2-Cache, which seems to be running at 866 MHz. According to https://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/data_sheets/ds190-Zynq-7000-Overview.pdf this might be a Zynq Z-7010, Z-7015, or Z-7020 (assuming Rigol doesn't use over- or underclocked CPUs).


And is this an open, working Linux prompt without password protection?
Boot output:

Code: [Select]
...
rcS Complete
[1B][1;31m<root@rigol>[1B][0mrpcbind: cannot create socket for udp6
...
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #152 on: August 08, 2018, 07:48:28 pm »
Date Sheet page 22:
"Note[2]: 1mV/div and 2mV/div are a magnification of 4mV/div setting..."

Where have we seen that before? :)
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #153 on: August 08, 2018, 08:55:14 pm »
Date Sheet page 22:
"Note[2]: 1mV/div and 2mV/div are a magnification of 4mV/div setting..."

Where have we seen that before? :)

On Keysight DSOX3000T and 4000 series for starters......
 

Offline Dwaine

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #154 on: August 09, 2018, 01:10:42 am »
They really need to update their linux kernel, gcc and toolchain.  Spectre and meltdown anyone.  And the performance improvements they are missing....

Come on Jim.....

Linux version 3.12.0-xilinx (rigolee@Jim) (gcc version 4.8.1 (Sourcery CodeBench Lite 2013.11-53) ) #35 SMP PREEMPT Tue May 22 17:58:17 CST 2018
 

Offline CustomEngineerer

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #155 on: August 09, 2018, 03:25:57 am »
Because its important to hook your scope up to the internet so that it can look up scope porn while you aren't using it?
 
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Offline Dwaine

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #156 on: August 10, 2018, 01:06:39 am »
No...  But T&M manufactures should start caring about their kernels and code for security and performance/bugfixes.   
 

Offline modernjack3

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #157 on: August 16, 2018, 06:08:35 pm »
Hey guys!
I got my DS7024 a couple of weeks ago and so far I am really happy with it, it worked like a charm leading up to yesterday when I was trying to debug a grayscale clock when the math function (not even a complex one - just Channel 1 && Channel 2) made my whole device crash.
First I thought it might be a one time thing but after retrying the same mesurment over and over again it just kept crashing on me... for now I just hope the rest keeps working and I dont stuble upon any more hidden "features"... and that this crap gets fixed soon.

I just hope future scopes, as they are getting more complex and buggy won't need a "Day one Patch" just to be properly functional  :palm:

Otherwise the scope des a great job so far, the memory depth is just impressive and the touchscreen makes it possible to quickly scroll and zoom through signals that go over a long period of time.
The included probes are sometimes having a little bit of a problem with actually pulling their "measurment hook" or however you would call it, all the way in which feels kinda cheap but yea...
Another thing to mention is that whilst the scope is definitly not loud, it is audible in a quiet working area, so if you are easily annoyed by that you might want to pass on this one.

All in all I am really happy with this scope and so far and I havent encountered any bugs in the hardware that couldnt easily be fixed by rigol.
This math function flaw seems to at least be fixable by a simple software update if they care enough.

In case you guys want to hear any fedback to certain features of the scope or have any questions I could answer, I am happy to do so!

Greetings, Jack  :-+
 
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Offline imo

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #158 on: August 17, 2018, 02:46:11 am »
Have you escalated the bug to Rigol? What do they say?
 

Offline modernjack3

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #159 on: August 20, 2018, 06:50:42 pm »
So far I haven't really gotten time for doing so... but once I did I will let you know what they did!
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #160 on: August 21, 2018, 12:20:27 am »
So far I haven't really gotten time for doing so... but once I did I will let you know what they did!
Perhaps you could post a small list here.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tv84

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #161 on: August 21, 2018, 07:40:58 pm »
The v00.01.01.07.01 .GEL file is a .TAR archive and can be opened with the 7-zip decompressor.

Inside there are the following files:

Code: [Select]
21-06-2018  10:18        81.133.568 app.img
21-06-2018  10:18             4.736 fw4linux.sh
21-06-2018  10:18             4.784 fw4uboot.sh
19-09-2017  07:15            71.920 logo.hex
21-06-2018  10:17        14.210.704 system.img
13-06-2018  14:10         3.510.668 zynq.bit

fw4linux.sh and fw4uboot.sh are 2 AES-CBC encrypted shell scripts

app.img is a UBI image (file list attached)

logo.hex is a 404x89 bitmap (format 16bpp Rgb565). (image attached)

system.img is a U-Boot FIT Image containing a gzipped 32MBytes filesystem image (rootfs.img).

zynq.bit (FPGA bistream) has the following parsing:

Code: [Select]
00000000 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000004 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000008 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
0000000C - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000010 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000014 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000018 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
0000001C - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000020 - 000000BB             Bus width auto detect, word 1
00000024 - 11220044             Bus width auto detect, word 2
00000028 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
0000002C - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000030 - AA995566             Sync Word (BPI/SPI Mode)
00000034 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
00000038 - 30022001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  TIMER
00000040 - 30020001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  WBSTAR
00000048 - 30008001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  CMD      NULL - No Operation
00000050 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
00000054 - 30008001 00000007    T1 W 00000001  CMD      RCRC - Reset CRC
0000005C - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (2x)
00000064 - 30026001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  FALL_EDGE
0000006C - 30012001 02003FE5    T1 W 00000001  COR0
00000074 - 3001C001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  COR1
0000007C - 30018001 0373B093    T1 W 00000001  IDCODE
00000084 - 30008001 00000009    T1 W 00000001  CMD      SWITCH - Switch CCLK Frequency
0000008C - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
00000090 - 3000C001 00000401    T1 W 00000001  MASK
00000098 - 3000A001 00000501    T1 W 00000001  CTL0
000000A0 - 3000C001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  MASK
000000A8 - 30030001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  CTL1
000000B0 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (8x)
000000D0 - 30002001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  FAR
000000D8 - 30008001 00000001    T1 W 00000001  CMD      WCFG - Write Config Data
000000E0 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
000000E4 - 30004000             T1 W 00000000  FDRI
000000E8 - 500D621C             T2 W 000D621C
00358964 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (2x)
0035896C - 30008001 0000000A    T1 W 00000001  CMD      GRESTORE - Pulse GRESTORE Signal
00358974 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
00358978 - 30008001 00000003    T1 W 00000001  CMD      DGHIGH/LFRM - Last Frame Write
00358980 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (100x)
00358B10 - 30008001 00000005    T1 W 00000001  CMD      START - Begin Startup Sequence
00358B18 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
00358B1C - 30002001 03BE0000    T1 W 00000001  FAR
00358B24 - 3000C001 00000501    T1 W 00000001  MASK
00358B2C - 3000A001 00000501    T1 W 00000001  CTL0
00358B34 - 30000001 E3AD7EA5    T1 W 00000001  CRC
00358B3C - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (2x)
00358B44 - 30008001 0000000D    T1 W 00000001  CMD      DESYNC - Reset DALIGN Signal
00358B4C - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (400x)

The IDCODE = 0373B093 corresponds to the Xilinx Zynq-7015 .

Inside the app.img there is another FPGA bitstream ( K160M_TOP.bit ):

Code: [Select]
00000000 - 0009         (0x0009) File Header Length
00000002 - 0FF00FF0     (0x0FF00FF0) File Header Long 1
00000006 - 0FF00FF0     (0x0FF00FF0) File Header Long 2
0000000A - 00           (0x00) File Header Zero
0000000B - 0001         (0x0001) Key Length
0000000D - 61 002B      (key a) Design Name: K160M_TOP;UserID=0XFFFFFFFF;Version=2015.2
0000003B - 62 000D      (key b) Part Name: 7k160tffg676
0000004B - 63 000B      (key c) Generation Date: 2018/06/12
00000059 - 64 0009      (key d) Generation Time: 22:41:08
00000065 - 65 00661EDC  (key e) Bitstream Length: 00661EDC  [0000006A-00661F45]
--------------  BITSTREAM  ------------------------
0000006A - FFFFFFFF             Padding
0000006E - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000072 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000076 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
0000007A - FFFFFFFF             Padding
0000007E - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000082 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000086 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
0000008A - 000000BB             Bus width auto detect, word 1
0000008E - 11220044             Bus width auto detect, word 2
00000092 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
00000096 - FFFFFFFF             Padding
0000009A - AA995566             Sync Word (BPI/SPI Mode)
0000009E - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
000000A2 - 30022001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  TIMER
000000AA - 30020001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  WBSTAR
000000B2 - 30008001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  CMD      NULL - No Operation
000000BA - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
000000BE - 30008001 00000007    T1 W 00000001  CMD      RCRC - Reset CRC
000000C6 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (2x)
000000CE - 30026001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  FALL_EDGE
000000D6 - 30012001 020035E5    T1 W 00000001  COR0
000000DE - 3001C001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  COR1
000000E6 - 30018001 0364C093    T1 W 00000001  IDCODE
000000EE - 30008001 00000009    T1 W 00000001  CMD      SWITCH - Switch CCLK Frequency
000000F6 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
000000FA - 3000C001 00000401    T1 W 00000001  MASK
00000102 - 3000A001 00000501    T1 W 00000001  CTL0
0000010A - 3000C001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  MASK
00000112 - 30030001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  CTL1
0000011A - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (8x)
0000013A - 30002001 00000000    T1 W 00000001  FAR
00000142 - 30008001 00000001    T1 W 00000001  CMD      WCFG - Write Config Data
0000014A - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
0000014E - 30004000             T1 W 00000000  FDRI
00000152 - 50198570             T2 W 00198570
0066171E - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (2x)
00661726 - 30008001 0000000A    T1 W 00000001  CMD      GRESTORE - Pulse GRESTORE Signal
0066172E - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
00661732 - 30008001 00000003    T1 W 00000001  CMD      DGHIGH/LFRM - Last Frame Write
0066173A - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (100x)
006618CA - 30008001 00000005    T1 W 00000001  CMD      START - Begin Startup Sequence
006618D2 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (1x)
006618D6 - 30002001 03BE0000    T1 W 00000001  FAR
006618DE - 3000C001 00000501    T1 W 00000001  MASK
006618E6 - 3000A001 00000501    T1 W 00000001  CTL0
006618EE - 30000001 E3AD7EA5    T1 W 00000001  CRC
006618F6 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (2x)
006618FE - 30008001 0000000D    T1 W 00000001  CMD      DESYNC - Reset DALIGN Signal
00661906 - 20000000             T1 - 00000000  NOP      (400x)

It has IDCODE = 0364C093  which corresponds to a Xilinx XC7K160T FPGA.

flamingo_console is the main app. Inside are the interesting validations.

Rigol DS7000 - License Upgrade Options (as seen on the app code):
Code: [Select]
BW1T2  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (100MHZ TO 200MHZ)
BW1T3  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (100MHZ TO 350MHZ)
BW1T5  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (100MHZ TO 500MHZ)
BW2T3  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (200MHZ TO 350MHZ)
BW2T5  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (200MHZ TO 500MHZ)
BW3T5  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (350MHZ TO 500MHZ)
MSO    - ENABLE 16 DIGITAL CHANNELS
2RL    - MEMORY DEPTH UPGRADE (250MPTS MAX.)
5RL    - MEMORY DEPTH UPGRADE (500MPTS MAX.)
BND    - FUNCTION & APPLICATION BUNDLE
COMP   - RS232/UART BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
EMBD   - I2C/SPI BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
AUTO   - CAN/LIN BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
FLEX   - FLEXRAY BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
AUDIO  - I2S BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
SENSOR  - SENT SENSOR TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
AERO   - MIL-STD-1553 BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
ARINC  - ARINC-429 SERIAL TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
AWG (DG) - DUAL CHANNEL WAVEGEN 25 MHZ
JITTER - JITTER & REALTIME EYE DIAGRAM ANALYSIS
MASK   - MASK TEST
PWR    - INTEGRATED POWER ANALYSIS
DVM    - INTEGRATED DIGITAL VOLTMETER
CTR    - INTEGRATED 10 DIGIT COUNTER
EDK    - EDUCATION AND TRAINING OPTION

If anyone knows any other descriptions or corrections...
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 09:12:45 pm by tv84 »
 
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Offline carl0s

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #162 on: August 22, 2018, 03:27:25 am »
Seem to be a lot of man pages in there ?!?
--
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #163 on: August 22, 2018, 04:14:01 am »
It would be interesting to check if the non-MSO version has part of the unpopulated circuitry in place on the main PCB Board to make your own MSO version and DIY Logic Analyzer probe.

If this is the case, one can do with the DS7014 model and turn it into a fully functional MSO7054 model! :)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 04:26:24 am by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline Hagrid

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #164 on: September 04, 2018, 05:15:11 pm »
In case you guys want to hear any fedback to certain features of the scope or have any questions I could answer, I am happy to do so!

Thank you a lot! I wonder if you can use math functions on other math functions and then further process the data (making measurements, doing statistical analysis, using the color grating or histogram feature or all at once). I know the error will get worse and 8-Bit resolution is not that much to start with.

If this thing is found do te hackable this thing will have a massive impact i guess.
 

Offline linus

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #165 on: September 12, 2018, 06:40:13 am »
Hi

I was about selecting a new scope to analyze BLDC motor drivers when the 700 Series was released. Has anyone yet concluded how the MSO7000 compares to the RTM3000 in real live scenarios? i.e. has anyone used both?

More specifically I'm looking into MSO7014 vs RTM3004

Thanks for sharing.

Linus
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 07:19:00 am by linus »
 

Offline extronic

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #166 on: September 12, 2018, 03:25:02 pm »
I was about selecting a new scope to analyze BLDC motor drivers when the 700 Series was released. Has anyone yet concluded how the MSO7000 compares to the RTM3000 in real live scenarios? i.e. has anyone used both?
You'd better wait for Dave to review MSO7000. He's already got one for testing over a month ago and millions of people around the world can't stand waiting to watch his review :)
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #167 on: September 13, 2018, 02:16:06 am »
Hi

I was about selecting a new scope to analyze BLDC motor drivers when the 700 Series was released. Has anyone yet concluded how the MSO7000 compares to the RTM3000 in real live scenarios? i.e. has anyone used both?

More specifically I'm looking into MSO7014 vs RTM3004

Thanks for sharing.

Linus
here is a nice pic for you, I took it yesterday at the office
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Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #168 on: September 13, 2018, 04:04:18 am »
Hi

I was about selecting a new scope to analyze BLDC motor drivers when the 700 Series was released. Has anyone yet concluded how the MSO7000 compares to the RTM3000 in real live scenarios? i.e. has anyone used both?

More specifically I'm looking into MSO7014 vs RTM3004
You better get them both on loan and see which one meets your expectations.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #169 on: September 13, 2018, 04:10:20 am »
Hi

I was about selecting a new scope to analyze BLDC motor drivers when the 700 Series was released. Has anyone yet concluded how the MSO7000 compares to the RTM3000 in real live scenarios? i.e. has anyone used both?

More specifically I'm looking into MSO7014 vs RTM3004

Thanks for sharing.

Linus
here is a nice pic for you, I took it yesterday at the office

i DO have to call your office tomorrow :D

About the choice, get them both on loan and don't underestimate the pattern generator on the RTM!
For example, in a board i'm re-designing these days the inputs are high voltage signals in a certain sequence. after a bit of conditioning they can be resolved as a parallel logic bus. Capture, reproduce on the pattern gen.. maybe add some spurious and see if firmware/logic handles it well without the risk of blowing something up.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 04:25:09 am by JPortici »
 

Offline linus

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #170 on: September 13, 2018, 05:56:22 am »
Thanks, Simone  8)

So, what is your first impression?

Linus
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #171 on: September 13, 2018, 06:07:47 am »
Thanks, Simone  8)

So, what is your first impression?

Linus
Both units are really nice, R&S user interface is very friendly and after 5 minutes you start the unit for the first you are already navigating through the menu finding what you need. Rigol UI is more recent and may need some firmware update (like R&S had after launching).
Rigol unit is wider to accomodate the 4 channels command without loosing display size (both 10.1" touch).
Rigol has the HDMI port which is really cool, I was at customer making a demo and we used the 60inch monitor they had in the meeting room, impressive.
Probably R&S has a cleaner signal.
For Rigol to get the signal generator you must buy the MSO.
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Offline wat

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #172 on: September 23, 2018, 06:36:32 am »
Hello everyone!
Few weeks ago I got hold of a new Rigol MSO7014, and this week-end I discovered this awesome forum!
I have a decent electronic background, and I am happy to experiment (within reason) on my scope for the greater
good of the community, hopefully to find a way to "upgrade" this new model ;)
 
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Offline wat

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #173 on: September 23, 2018, 06:22:54 pm »
I think the JTAG was located in the teardown, seek @ 11min58sec


« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 06:26:06 pm by wat »
 

Offline RobBarter

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #174 on: September 24, 2018, 07:09:34 pm »
wat - To help keep the hounds off Dave, if you have any general feedback on the scope please feel free to share.   :)
May relax a few who's pockets have money trying to burn themselves out of.  Not me of course...no, no definitely not me....really  ;)
 

Offline wat

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #175 on: September 25, 2018, 03:43:35 am »
wat - To help keep the hounds off Dave, if you have any general feedback on the scope please feel free to share.   :)
May relax a few who's pockets have money trying to burn themselves out of.  Not me of course...no, no definitely not me....really  ;)
I don't have anything cool to measure yet, that will come soon...

Some marginal comments: it's cool that you can have 4 analogue channels plus the digital on at the same time
Small downside: it takes about 40 seconds to boot

I have one little concern: I don't see how to enter an expansion license, that menu is disabled. (Possibly this will change with the next FW release??)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 03:46:25 am by wat »
 

Offline tv84

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #176 on: September 25, 2018, 06:08:53 am »
I have one little concern: I don't see how to enter an expansion license, that menu is disabled. (Possibly this will change with the next FW release??)

Possibly only a USB pendisk (with the specific license) will enable the local upgrade??
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #177 on: September 25, 2018, 07:11:32 am »
I have one little concern: I don't see how to enter an expansion license, that menu is disabled. (Possibly this will change with the next FW release??)

Possibly only a USB pendisk (with the specific license) will enable the local upgrade??

Rigol-supplied keyfile?

Has anybody ordered their DS7000 with upgrades? How do they work?
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #178 on: September 25, 2018, 01:19:14 pm »
Has anyone done any comparisons with Keysight 3000 scopes ? I only see comparisons done with Teks 3000 scopes and we know how hamstrung they can be when there is too much going on at once.
 

Offline jamodio

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #179 on: September 25, 2018, 01:24:41 pm »

Same as other options, they send a pdf Software License Certificate with the key.

You go to their site, enter the key and serial number and it generates the license file that gets installed via USB.
 

Offline wat

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #180 on: October 02, 2018, 07:29:04 am »
I've used it a bit, generating some waveforms with a microcontroller (dacs and PWM output, ignore the not-perfect saw-tooth, it's normal like this).

The response is good, just one critic: it should save the settings when powering off: after boot it always starts up with the default settings: all 4 channels active, 1V/div and 1us/div. Digital inputs off.

Probably every other DSO at power up has the settings that were left last time it was used :(
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #181 on: October 02, 2018, 08:09:44 am »
...
Probably every other DSO at power up has the settings that were left last time it was used :(

Have a look at the manual, page 19-6, "Power On". Configure this setting to "last" it should work as you are used to.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 07:03:21 pm by TurboTom »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #182 on: October 02, 2018, 08:12:12 am »
Probably every other DSO at power up has the settings that were left last time it was used :(

Even the humble DS1054Z has a menu item to select that... :popcorn:
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #183 on: October 02, 2018, 08:24:32 am »
Press Utility  System, and then press Power On continuously to select "Last" or
"Default". By default, it is "Last".
 Last: returns to the setting of the system at last power-off.
 Default: returns to the factory setting of the system.

manual is your friend.....
 
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Offline wat

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #184 on: October 02, 2018, 05:17:24 pm »
Thank you guys ( :palm:

Honestly I wasn't expecting it could exist an option different from "Last", I've never seen it before on any scope (or maybe I forgot about it...)
I'll read the manual, promise!

 
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Offline zeratul42

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #185 on: October 10, 2018, 11:27:01 pm »
Any idea to find magic private key  ?
 

Offline seppeltronics

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #186 on: October 14, 2018, 06:31:05 am »
Hello

I'm buying an Oscilloscope next week and think I get a Rigol MSO7014. What do you think about the unit? The discussion was that my colleague prefers scopes that have a dedicated knob-set for each channel, so I came up with the MSO7014. The other option would be the R&S RTB2K-104M.

Any comments/recommendations?

Thank you very much,

Best Regards, Seppel
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #187 on: October 14, 2018, 06:40:06 am »
Make a test plan to see if the oscilloscope does what you need it to do. If you need to do that on your boss' dime then you better get the R&S RTB2000 or R&S RTM3000 because there will be no money savings. Bosses like to pay for tools which work out of the box and don't need a whole lot of tinkering.

The R&S scopes are also a much safer bet when it comes to firmware updates and support. Rigol doesn't have a good track record getting the firmware on their higher end scopes fixed quickly. Look at the DS2000 and DS4000 threads on this forum.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 06:42:00 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline seppeltronics

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #188 on: October 14, 2018, 11:57:57 pm »
Hello,

well, the “scope thing” has a longer story. In general we order the scope for one of my colleagues, he'd like to heave TDS2014C (we all know it's a vintage scope), he will use it a lot and he requested to have 4 separate controls. Because the TDS2014C is so hopelessly outdated I stepped in and with the argument that the DS7014 also got 4 knobs we may order the Rigol. Finally I was able to get a better discount on the MSO than the DS, that way I was able to get an MSO. It's a compromise, but considering the TDS2014C starting-point I pulled it very far. The HDMI Output is also something that may be useful on workshops, tech-days,... so I can show off the things we do. The Rigol has an Integral math function, we use the Integral math function a lot on our other measurement systems.

The R&S RTB2k104M with the RTB-PK1 option-bundle was my first choice, but I could not “sell” the “one knob” control to the department actually buying the scope. What also concerns me, the R&S is the piezoelectric effect of the Input, the environment we work in is related to vibration. The R&S is a good scope, that is very likely the next one I will push to buy.

Best Regards, Seppel
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #189 on: October 15, 2018, 03:21:37 am »
The microphonic sensitivity on the R&S RTB2000 is mainly due to the BNCs not being fixed to the case. The RTM3000 has the BNCs bolted to the chassis and this should take care of most of the microphonic sensitivity. Then again I don't think it is much of a problem in real world scenarios. It doesn't look like much but Dave is sending very large impacts directly into the oscilloscopes. It is unlikely a vibrating table causes a similar effect. Also consider that modern scopes have near real-time web interfaces so having a big screen connected to an oscilloscope directly is not that big of an advantage. It is a pity the department buying the scope is so hung up on the 'one knob' because with a good touch screen interface you can do without the knobs AND work faster.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #190 on: October 15, 2018, 04:58:13 am »
The "piezo effect" is a hard sell if you have to specify the oscilloscope where someone else has to use as well and may have his mind set on a specific model that does not have this effect (I am assuming this does not happen).

I would contact the three manufacturers and get demo units to get the "approval" of everyone involved. That would be a much safer approach, although you may not have the luxury of time.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #191 on: November 05, 2018, 10:35:13 am »
Dunno when it started, but there seems to be a sale where you get all the protocol decoders, the power quality measurement and the AWG (on MSO models) options for free until end of this year:
https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/7000/
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 
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Offline seppeltronics

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #192 on: December 03, 2018, 12:21:49 am »
Hello,

we just bought a Rigol MSO7k with Trigger-options, my first impressions:

  • You can increase the brightness of the MSO7k, per default it's dim, after setting it to 80-90% it is ok.
  • Having HDMI is awesome  8) , I tried it with a big screen in a meeting-room, cool feature. I'll propose we will use it on one of the next Tech-Days where we show products to customers. Why they just got 1280*720, instead of the 1920*1080 I have no idea, hopefully they offer it in one of the next updates.
  • Boot-time is ok  :) , I used Tek's, LeCroy,... that were far worse, I think Dave overreacts  :-/O.
  • The protective front cover is included  :-+ , I think every scope(or other equipment) should have it included as standard. It makes storage very convenient, very nice.

It'll take a while until I can come up with some more details, currently I'm very busy with project management,... In January I'll have more time.

Best Regards, Seppel
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #193 on: December 08, 2018, 07:43:29 pm »
flamingo_console is the main app. Inside are the interesting validations.

Rigol DS7000 - License Upgrade Options (as seen on the app code):
Code: [Select]
BW1T2  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (100MHZ TO 200MHZ)
BW1T3  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (100MHZ TO 350MHZ)
BW1T5  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (100MHZ TO 500MHZ)
BW2T3  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (200MHZ TO 350MHZ)
BW2T5  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (200MHZ TO 500MHZ)
BW3T5  - BANDWIDTH UPGRADE (350MHZ TO 500MHZ)
MSO    - ENABLE 16 DIGITAL CHANNELS
2RL    - MEMORY DEPTH UPGRADE (250MPTS MAX.)
5RL    - MEMORY DEPTH UPGRADE (500MPTS MAX.)
BND    - FUNCTION & APPLICATION BUNDLE
COMP   - RS232/UART BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
EMBD   - I2C/SPI BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
AUTO   - CAN/LIN BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
FLEX   - FLEXRAY BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
AUDIO  - I2S BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
SENSOR  - SENT SENSOR TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
AERO   - MIL-STD-1553 BUS TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
ARINC  - ARINC-429 SERIAL TRIGGER & ANALYSIS
DG     - DUAL CHANNEL WAVEGEN 25 MHZ AWG
JITTER - JITTER & REALTIME EYE DIAGRAM ANALYSIS
MASK   - MASK TEST
PWR    - INTEGRATED POWER ANALYSIS
DVM    - INTEGRATED DIGITAL VOLTMETER
CTR   - INTEGRATED 10 DIGIT COUNTER
EDK    - EDUCATION AND TRAINING OPTION

500MHz and 500M memory are not options that Rigol have disclosed. Interesting.
Just think, they are selling, at a profit, a 4CH 500MHz mixed signal scope with 500M of memory and dual ARB's for as little as US$900 retail.
 
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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #194 on: December 08, 2018, 07:47:25 pm »
What also concerns me, the R&S is the piezoelectric effect of the Input, the environment we work in is related to vibration.

Highly unlikely to be a problem in practice, the feet and case decoupling would almost certainly attenuate anything to down in to the existing noise floor.
 

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #195 on: December 08, 2018, 07:49:17 pm »
I'm buying an Oscilloscope next week and think I get a Rigol MSO7014. What do you think about the unit? The discussion was that my colleague prefers scopes that have a dedicated knob-set for each channel, so I came up with the MSO7014. The other option would be the R&S RTB2K-104M.
Any comments/recommendations?

If the company is paying, and money isn't really an issue, get the R&S, it's a much nicer and more capable scope with the 10bit ADC. Little contest there really.
 


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