EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Joao Carvalho on July 16, 2015, 08:21:11 pm
-
Hello,
I follow the EEVblog for 3 years and sow almost every video and follow the forum, but never posted anything, but now I have a strange question that I would like to ask.
The question is the following if Rigol is positioned to the entry level/budget market and there is a very sound movement to learn electronics all around the world, why isn’t there a new test equipment from Rigol in near an entire year?
I already bought 3 equipment from Rigol, in the previous year/years but when I go to Batronix the isn’t any new launch in almost one year.
The strange thing was that previously there were always new releases.
For example currently I’m looking for a 100MHz Arbitrary Function Generator, but the offer from Rigol is from 2012, I would like to buy a more recent model. The advance from my last 50MHz Rigol to my new (6 months) 100MHz Rigol 4 Channels is like night and day.
I’m I asking to much?
I see this low budget segment like a great opportunity for Rigol to rapidly advance the Test Equipment market in terms of features and software, because what they don’t make in the price of a unit they make several times in the volume of units that they sell.
They transform the market of test equipment from a niche into a mass market, and that must be good for the market.
Thank you,
Best regards,
João Carvalho
-
Test equipment is NOT like new iPhones. The development cycle takes much longer and much longer support is demanded. New equipment takes a long time to develop and often times needs markets need to be evaluated if new equipment even makes sense in that market. For example, the D1000Z series covers the budget oscilloscope range VERY well. No need to innovate there for a while, at least until technology reaches a point that substantial changes are possible. This is because 1) no one is selling a billion oscilloscopes so the profit margins need to be higher and 2) the types of engineering involved are VERY different.
EDIT:
What I mean by the types of engineering are very different is that for oscilloscopes, no one is making an oscilloscope SoC for general sale. Agilent comes close with their MegaZoom ICs but it is far from having every little thing on the chip like most phones do. Outisde of the major high budget manufacturers, the oscilloscope has to be built block by block from more or less off the shelf parts. This is not only difficult and costly but it takes longer to do and ensure a quality product.
As for evaluating the market, technology of off-the-shelf parts moves much more slowly. You don't see the same huge jumps in power that you do in the high volume SoC markets. This is partly due to the fact that oscilloscopes require things like FPGAs (while cellphones require more linear architectures like ARM) and partly due to sheer volumes involved. If the parts have only increased 10% in performance, it doesn't make sense to spend all of the money developing a new product line for a measly 10% gains.
-
Test equipment is NOT like new iPhones. The development cycle takes much longer and much longer support is demanded.
Development cycles for stuff like that offered by Rigol don't necessarily take much longer than say for an iPhone, that's bollocks. Rigol isn't treading new ground here in terms of technology (that's what others do), and there are many areas where Rigol could very well use some updates (i.e. a proper search function for their scopes, or finally some replacement for the overaged DG1022 Series).
The reason Rigol doesn't come up with new products is that sales of their existing products are still more than good enough, they're simply riding the wave until it slows down.
-
Test equipment is NOT like new iPhones. The development cycle takes much longer and much longer support is demanded.
Development cycles for stuff like that offered by Rigol don't necessarily take much longer than say for an iPhone, that's bollocks.
They do, as they have orders of magnitude less resource to throw at it than Apple, because the market is vastly smaller.
-
Development cycles for stuff like that offered by Rigol don't necessarily take much longer than say for an iPhone, that's bollocks.
They do, as they have orders of magnitude less resource to throw at it than Apple, because the market is vastly smaller.
So what? Rigol doesn't invent or innovate, all they do is using cheap components put together in a cheap plastics case, which doesn't require anything like the extensive development periods that were suggested . I'm not a fan of Apple but the attention they pay towards the materials, hardware and other details is hardly comparable with what Rigol does for their kit, plus Apple maintains a pretty complex piece of software for it (iOS, which is much more complex than the simple firmware Rigol makes for their stuff, which is also regularly full of bugs which isn't exactly a sign of a thorough development process).
Rigol doesn't sell stuff because it's technically advanced (it isn't), it's bought because it's cheap and offers decent performance for its low price. That's why as long as their current products sell as well as they currently do we won't hardly see any successor products.
-
For example currently I’m looking for a 100MHz Arbitrary Function Generator, but the offer from Rigol is from 2012, I would like to buy a more recent model.
Welcome to the forum.
You must understand, just because a piece of TE was designed some years ago doesn't make it out of date.
Good designs allow for additional functionality and upgrades of performance with new firmware releases.
When existing HW becomes too expensive to compete against compeditors, new models are designed and released. This has always been so.
-
Development cycles for stuff like that offered by Rigol don't necessarily take much longer than say for an iPhone, that's bollocks.
They do, as they have orders of magnitude less resource to throw at it than Apple, because the market is vastly smaller.
So what? Rigol doesn't invent or innovate, all they do is using cheap components put together in a cheap plastics case, which doesn't require anything like the extensive development periods that were suggested . I'm not a fan of Apple but the attention they pay towards the materials, hardware and other details is hardly comparable with what Rigol does for their kit, plus Apple maintains a pretty complex piece of software for it (iOS, which is much more complex than the simple firmware Rigol makes for their stuff, which is also regularly full of bugs which isn't exactly a sign of a thorough development process).
Rigol doesn't sell stuff because it's technically advanced (it isn't), it's bought because it's cheap and offers decent performance for its low price. That's why as long as their current products sell as well as they currently do we won't hardly see any successor products.
Bull.
There was cheap test equipment before Rigol came along, and there is tons of product out there a lot cheaper than them now. They aren't selling because they are cheap. They are selling because they offer great bang for the buck. And if you don't think Apple stuff is at *least* as buggy (hardware and software) as Rigol stuff, you haven't been paying attention. Bendgate, antennagate, batterygate, mapsgate and more. I'm not bashing Apple, I'm just saying shit happens for every manufacturer.
And nobody out there is pushing the envelope of price/features like Rigol. They've had several home runs in a row (DS2072, DP832, DG4062, DS1054Z, arguably others).
-
Yes they are selling because they are cheap.
Any shit will sell if it is cheap. Just go to any dollar store and see it for yourself.
ADDED: @OP - you do not want any old or new rigol shit, time will come and you will thank you me for this.
-
FWIW I'm happy with my cheap Rigol shit for two years and counting :)
-
The size of the smartphone market alone influences the advancement of components in that field. A chip manufacturer will design a SOC to target smartphones because they stand a lot to gain from it. Test gear is exactly the opposite. Manufacturers more often than not rely on FPGAs because ASICs are too expensive to tap out because of low volume and small profit margins, especially for guys like Rigol. Compare Apple's profit margin on an iPhone to Rigol's profit margin on the DS1kz. And Apple sells 10s of millions.
Even the smartphone market is starting to slow down, since it was a relatively new field not that long ago.
For the same reasons, like Mike mentioned you also have much smaller teams working on test gear projects. iPhone development is a much larger effort but the resources available and being poured into it are orders of magnitude larger. And yes I said iPhone takes a lot of engineering to get done. iOS alone is orders of magnitude more complex than a Sig Gen firmware. And that's just the software, Apple designs some of their own silicon like the SOC. Rigol doesn't do any of their own silicon as far as I know?
-
FWIW I'm happy with my cheap Rigol shit for two years and counting :)
And how many power cycles has it done?
Oh that's right Rigols don't have a bootstrap counter. :palm:
-
Development cycles for stuff like that offered by Rigol don't necessarily take much longer than say for an iPhone, that's bollocks.
Technically it doesn't have to, no, but in practice the design and production teams and resources are much smaller, and they don't have to be in a hurry because there aren't the same market forces.
One well known multimeter maker is coming out with a new multimeter shortly, and it's a very basic bottom of the range no frills one. It's taken more than 12 months already and it's just at the pilot-production stage, still not on the market yet.
-
So what? Rigol doesn't invent or innovate, all they do is using cheap components put together in a cheap plastics case, which doesn't require anything like the extensive development periods that were suggested .
Depends how you define innovation.
Rigol were the first maker to come out with a cheap 1GS/s bench scope (the DS5000 series), they truly pioneered the market of quality bang-per-buck low cost scopes.
So much so that Agilent decided to rebadge Rigol scopes instead of making their own low end unit.
-
You are going to get both Rigol fans and Rigol not so much fans here - take it all with a grain of salt. My guess is that some of the people who don't like Rigol actually owned a piece of Rigol equipment at some point but I bet if you put up a poll asking how many people who have owned a piece of Rigol equipment would recommend Rigol gear to a friend on a budget I bet the percentage would be pretty high in favor of Rigol.
As for the product cycles, the market for Test Equipment is probably very small compared to more mainstream consumer products (like phones). As volume goes down it's harder to justify rapid introductions of new models because there are fewer sales over which NRE can be amortized.
For the past couple years Rigol has probably introduced as many low end oscilloscopes as anyone in the market and likely sold more than most if not all manufacturers in the low end. So it's not like they are going slow on scopes. Some of their products have had slower new product introductions - like function/arb generators but it's probably because those are even more niche products than oscilloscopes. Their lowest price function/arb gens are among the longest in the tooth within their product line but at a step up the 1032Z and 1062Z haven't been on the market all that long.
Having said all that, I think Rigol is like every other company - they are trying their best to forecast demand and using their limited resources to invest where they can get the best return. My guess is that one of the things Rigol has figured out over the years is that each product adds some ongoing support costs so before they introduce something new, especially if it doesn't reuse a lot of parts and resources from previous models, they want to make sure they aren't digging a new hole they can't profitably manage. But mostly, until they see competition hitting one of their products hard they don't have much incentive to introduce a new lower cost product that will just erode their own revenues and margins.
-
There was cheap test equipment before Rigol came along, and there is tons of product out there a lot cheaper than them now.
Yes, but most of them did perform vastly inferior.
They aren't selling because they are cheap. They are selling because they offer great bang for the buck.
They are selling because they offer decent performance at a low price.
And if you don't think Apple stuff is at *least* as buggy (hardware and software) as Rigol stuff, you haven't been paying attention. Bendgate, antennagate, batterygate, mapsgate and more. I'm not bashing Apple, I'm just saying shit happens for every manufacturer.
I never said Apple was free from problems (they certainly aren't), but especially their software is vastly more complex than Rigol's firmware, and while iOS regularly comes with some annoying bugs it's not half as bad as when Rigol produces a new product with a new firmware. So yes, iphone development requires much more resources than developing some low end scope like a Rigol DS1kz or DS2k.
And nobody out there is pushing the envelope of price/features like Rigol. They've had several home runs in a row (DS2072, DP832, DG4062, DS1054Z, arguably others).
Rigol was the first to get price/features right but isn't the only one. Siglent offers mostly similar kit in this class (and for some things like low end AWGs even has a much more attractive portfolio than Rigol), aside from the DS1kz (and I'll guess we'll see some competition there, soon).
This still doesn't change the fact that nothing in Rigol's products is really ground breaking. They are certainly good at getting the balance between price, quality impression and features right, and as a Chinese manufacturer they can produce at very low cost. But meeting a price target isn't as complex as developing technology further, which Apple has done in many areas (i.e. manufacturing processes, materials etc). Everything in a Rigol product aside from PCB and case are cheap standard COTS parts, and I'd be surprised if there are more than say 5 people working on the firmware for all their products.
Rigol will come up with new products when they feel the need for it, i.e. when there are more similar products and sales figures will drop. Until then they'll just sell on what they have now.
-
FWIW I'm happy with my cheap Rigol shit for two years and counting :)
And how many power cycles has it done?
Why does that matter?
Oh that's right Rigols don't have a bootstrap counter. :palm:
And..? What use is that to anyone?
-
Rigol is a business, so is Siglent and Agilent.
These are profit driven companies. To say that they sit on a new product if an old one is doing well is no surprise and it happens. To say that they don't have a slew under development is false. If there is a market for a low end whatever and you can make a profit at it you do it.
Look at the codes for the DS1054 Rigol could have went nuts and worked out a way to enforce the software upgrades. Instead the have no comment on the issue, a profit driven decision.
As for features or lack thereof, test equipment is often purchased for a particular job. You may purchase for only that one feature. The number of sales define the needed features, it's all about profit. Price is a feature just like a color display, reliability or long battery life to think otherwise is just silly.
-
FWIW I'm happy with my cheap Rigol shit for two years and counting :)
And how many power cycles has it done?
Oh that's right Rigols don't have a bootstrap counter. :palm:
Since I use it about three times a day but not everyday, I'll say at least 15 times a week so about 1500 times in the last two years, but it's probably more.
-
Arent we comparing apples and oranges.
Phones vs Scopes.
If you would like to really understand the driving force behind the TE market, compare Keysight vs Rigol or Tek vs rigol.
Then you will see the development times cycles. And stop with the rigol bashing. It is innovative in a manner that it made the big players stop commanding the market prices. The sheer fact that they have steered the market into a more competitive battlezone is brilliant.
If rigol was not the bridge between low end chinese POS and overpriced Agilents/Teks then the TE market would still be in limbo.
-
FWIW I'm happy with my cheap Rigol shit for two years and counting :)
And how many power cycles has it done?
Why does that matter?
Oh that's right Rigols don't have a bootstrap counter. :palm:
And..? What use is that to anyone?
Wank feature? :palm:
Theres really no use for that in electronics.
Although it's nice to have an hourcounter for oil service life, etc. on mecanical stuff..
In the picture (translates to motorstarts) on my trusty ol Atlas Copco GA7 compressor. :-+
-
What I dislike is the big amount of bugs in the firmwares and the lack of a dynamic response to fix them, that unmotivates me to buy their products.
I wish there would be a sub 400EUR 100MHz oscilloscope like the Rigol ones, but with Open Source firmware and upgradable by modules. This could make the device quite flexible and eventually fixing all the found bugs. But no traditional company would release such product, they'll want to sell newer models.
-
What I dislike is the big amount of bugs in the firmwares and the lack of a dynamic response to fix them, that unmotivates me to buy their products.
I am seeing bugs being fixed in the firmware for my scope - How are other manufacturers different?
An open source scope would be awesome. But even open source needs a revenue stream somewhere. :-//
The agendas are certainly flowering nicely in this thread. :popcorn:
-
FWIW I'm happy with my cheap Rigol shit for two years and counting :)
And how many power cycles has it done?
Why does that matter?
Oh that's right Rigols don't have a bootstrap counter. :palm:
And..? What use is that to anyone?
When a new brand/model is released and you hanker for it, it will matter.
How will any prospective buyer of your SH Rigol know if your unit has had professional (daily), hobbyist or is NOS use?
Even the much maligned Tek TDS510/520 has a bootstrap counter 20+ years ago.
Would you buy a car without an odometer?
-
What I dislike is the big amount of bugs in the firmwares and the lack of a dynamic response to fix them, that unmotivates me to buy their products.
Ya. It's hard to grip on their really cheap stuff, but I pulled a dumbass move and bought a MSO4000, :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: Their support is worse than pathetic, oh well, learned my lesson.
-
What I dislike is the big amount of bugs in the firmwares and the lack of a dynamic response to fix them, that unmotivates me to buy their products.
Ya. It's hard to grip on their really cheap stuff, but I pulled a dumbass move and bought a MSO4000, :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: Their support is worse than pathetic, oh well, learned my lesson.
That makes me to think really bad of Rigol.
How many people are needed to make a Rigol-like 100MHz scope in six months? How much to develop the firmware and publish it AGPLv3? Maybe that could be a nice kickstarter.
Or meanwhile RE some common scopes and write an Open Source firmware for it ;)
-
Ya. It's hard to grip on their really cheap stuff, but I pulled a dumbass move and bought a MSO4000, :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: Their support is worse than pathetic, oh well, learned my lesson.
Whats the problem?
-
Whats the problem?
It's been extensively discussed here, find the MSO4000 bugs thread, among others.
In addition, I've written many detailed support emails, they never respond. Heck, when new firmware is released I sometimes have to request it 3-4 times before they respond.
-
It's been extensively discussed here, find the MSO4000 bugs thread, among others.
Got a link?
I've got a DS4014 and am interested to know.
-
Rigol were the first maker to come out with a cheap 1GS/s bench scope (the DS5000 series)
Wasn't the DS5000 essentially just a copy of some old Tek lunchbox scope (TDS2xx?)? I'm not sure that really counts as being innovative.
What I dislike is the big amount of bugs in the firmwares and the lack of a dynamic response to fix them, that unmotivates me to buy their products.
I am seeing bugs being fixed in the firmware for my scope - How are other manufacturers different?
They are different in that most bugs are resolved before the product is released while Rigol (and more so Siglent!) throw a product on the market when the firmware still is essentially in beta phase (not that it matters, as it doesn't seem Rigol or Siglent have proper software quality and development processes in place anyways).
What makes matters worse is that Rigol (and Siglent) don't even have set support life cycles, so you don't know for how long a product will actually be supported, and that could very well mean many problems won't ever get fixed.
This aside, the fact that Rigol still requires customer to beg their support for getting sent a firmware update file while anyone else (even Siglent!) offers them as simple downloads on their website is beyond pathetic.
-
FWIW I'm happy with my cheap Rigol shit for two years and counting :)
And how many power cycles has it done?
Why does that matter?
Oh that's right Rigols don't have a bootstrap counter. :palm:
And..? What use is that to anyone?
Wank feature? :palm:
Theres really no use for that in electronics.
A boot counter is largely useless. Most expensive electronics, industrial and consumer, now records its powered on hours, which is a lot more meaningful in terms of wear and tear. If you have a big screen TV, check its menus. There's probably a powered on hours counter in there somewhere.
-
Personally I'm glad that Rigol don't go creating new models every year. Next thing they will be giving them away for free, but you have to have a mobile meter contract with a paid for measurement allowance per month. Go over and hefty fees apply. Testing more exotic components will require a "international roaming fee". If you want to flog it on Buy/Sell you will have to get your Rigol carrier unlocked. The USA will make it illegal to unlock your meters and scopes.
OP, you will be pleased to know Rigol did put a toe in the water by releasing Special Editions...
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z298/Bl4ckW0lfi3/rigolhellokittyedition_zps3aea1b59.jpg)
Thankfully nothing came of it :-DD (thanks to eevblogger Spawn for this :-+ )
-
This aside, the fact that Rigol still requires customer to beg their support for getting sent a firmware update file while anyone else (even Siglent!) offers them as simple downloads on their website is beyond pathetic.
Hyperbole? Rigol require a webform with model, serial numbers and an email address. No doubt to catch hardware platforms that the firmware is not compatible with. It's pretty much automated and you get the a link to the file emailed within 10 minutes even outside of work hours.
-
you get the a link to the file emailed within 10 minutes even outside of work hours.
No you don't, I've done it dozens of times for my 815, DG400 and MSO4000. Usually requires 3-4 attempts before support finally replies, and i've waiting days between each attempt.
-
This aside, the fact that Rigol still requires customer to beg their support for getting sent a firmware update file while anyone else (even Siglent!) offers them as simple downloads on their website is beyond pathetic.
Hyperbole? Rigol require a webform with model, serial numbers and an email address. No doubt to catch hardware platforms that the firmware is not compatible with.
If that's the reason then they are even worse than I assumed, as the proper way to deal with this is to have your flasher check the hardware variant before starting to flash, it's really not rocket science.
I also doubt that there are so many incompatible hardware combinations of Rigol products out there. In fact, the only one I'm aware is the old DG1022 and DG1022U (if I remember right). Pretty stupid to withold all firmware updates of all products just because one product has a compatibility problem.
It's pretty much automated and you get the a link to the file emailed within 10 minutes even outside of work hours.
BS. It's not automated (the reply I got was from one of their support staff), and it took three attempts to even get that reply with the latest firmware for my DG1062z.
You can try to twist it as much as you want, fact is that other competitors (which, again, even includes Siglent) can easily manage offering firmware downloads, so why can't Rigol?
-
I'm not twisting anything. My only Rigols are the DP832 and the DM3058E. My most recent firmware upgrades have been via the webform and I've used it on the weekend out of hours so at least with some firmwares the update is automated. I agree it's a stupid way of doing it when a download section should be enough, but it's not a big deal really.
-
The webform just goes to a support engineer, you got lucky, somebody happen to be there over the weekend.
-
Yes they are selling because they are cheap.
Any shit will sell if it is cheap. Just go to any dollar store and see it for yourself.
ADDED: @OP - you do not want any old or new rigol shit, time will come and you will thank you me for this.
Since Rigol outsells competitors that have (sometimes significantly) cheaper products, obviously you are wrong.
And your edit proves you have some beef with Rigol and presumably don't care about being wrong - since it's not about right/wrong but about bashing Rigol.
-
Yes, but most of them did perform vastly inferior
They are selling because they offer decent performance at a low price.
In other words "bang for the buck" - Rigol has great bang for the buck. There is cheaper stuff out there, but it's often/generally inferior. And the stuff that is better is a lot more expensive.
I never said Apple was free from problems (they certainly aren't), but especially their software is vastly more complex than Rigol's firmware, and while iOS regularly comes with some annoying bugs it's not half as bad as when Rigol produces a new product with a new firmware. So yes, iphone development requires much more resources than developing some low end scope like a Rigol DS1kz or DS2k.
I disagree with your assessment that "it's not half as bad as when Rigol produces a new product". The bugs discovered in things like the Rigol scopes and function gens are minor. Very minor. You're talking about engineers who tend to be pedantic and excruciatingly detailed and technical, and will whine about a bug that makes a reading inaccurate, when they may never use that function and would never have known about the bug unless told. On the other hand, who doesn't use maps in the iPhone? Or who doesn't notice their iPhone running hot and guzzling battery? I've had 2 Apple devices become painfully slow to the point of being unusable when new firmware came out, and you don't get a choice in the matter - if you try it and don't like it... too bad, no way to go back.
Point being - if software or hardware has any level of complexity, it will have bugs. It's not indicative of shitty design or R&D, it's just life.
Rigol was the first to get price/features right but isn't the only one. Siglent offers mostly similar kit in this class (and for some things like low end AWGs even has a much more attractive portfolio than Rigol), aside from the DS1kz (and I'll guess we'll see some competition there, soon).
Well, from the test equipment sellers I know well enough to talk about sales - Rigol is destroying Siglent in sales. So the market doesn't agree that their portfolio is much more attractive, or even more attractive at all.
Rigol will come up with new products when they feel the need for it, i.e. when there are more similar products and sales figures will drop. Until then they'll just sell on what they have now.
Yes, like every company in the history of commerce does. The only companies that engage in R&D for the sake of it are those run by engineers who are shitty businessmen and they tend to go out of business quickly.
-
Whats the problem?
It's been extensively discussed here, find the MSO4000 bugs thread, among others.
In addition, I've written many detailed support emails, they never respond. Heck, when new firmware is released I sometimes have to request it 3-4 times before they respond.
Their support is the big problem with Rigol - as in, it sucks.
But it's not that they don't fix issues or don't update firmware... they just don't do it efficiently. I've found them to be very helpful and customer-friendly, but you have to light a fire under their ass to get something done.
Do you have the name/number of a tech person @ Rigol USA? If not, PM me and I will send you one... it's a lot easier to have a single person to call and say "hey this is Bob, I emailed you last week about <issue X>, haven't heard back - what's the next step?" than to send endless emails into the void.
I am not sure if support just isn't a priority for Rigol, or if they are just overworked, or they just don't have CRM software or someone in charge of support who knows WTF they are doing, or what the problem is, but they ought to look at fixing it, especially if they want to sell higher end gear.
-
Yes, like every company in the history of commerce does. The only companies that engage in R&D for the sake of it are those run by engineers who are shitty businessmen and they tend to go out of business quickly.
Oh I dunno, HP lasted ages until that Fiorina bint destroyed it.
-
Yes, like every company in the history of commerce does. The only companies that engage in R&D for the sake of it are those run by engineers who are shitty businessmen and they tend to go out of business quickly.
Oh I dunno, HP lasted ages until that Fiorina bint destroyed it.
I don't think the comment meant to say that every company run by engineers is headed for a problem, I think it meant to say that R&D for the sake of R&D without business objectives in mind could become a problem. For decades HP had great R&D and great engineering leadership but also great business leadership, a great culture and they changed the world for the better while making a lot of money for HP, HPers, and pretty much their entire ecosystem including customers who built good businesses using HP products.
-
you get the a link to the file emailed within 10 minutes even outside of work hours.
No you don't, I've done it dozens of times for my 815, DG400 and MSO4000. Usually requires 3-4 attempts before support finally replies, and i've waiting days between each attempt.
I've never waited longer than 5 minutes, in my 15+ requests.
-
I disagree with your assessment that "it's not half as bad as when Rigol produces a new product". The bugs discovered in things like the Rigol scopes and function gens are minor. Very minor.
"Minor", seriously??? :wtf: Have you looked at the various nasty issues the DSA800 had (lockups, Power Sweep and other stuff non-working)? Or the long list of bugs the DS1000z and the DS4000 Series suffered when they came out (and they still suffer from many of them)? There are very long threads in this very forum, which are pretty hard to ignore.
People can forgive some of the bugs because of the low price, but reality is that most big brands would be ashamed to release devices with such immature firmware (not saying it never happens, but when it does it's an exception while for Rigol it's just normal).
You're talking about engineers who tend to be pedantic and excruciatingly detailed and technical, and will whine about a bug that makes a reading inaccurate, when they may never use that function and would never have known about the bug unless told.
What silly drivel. :palm:
For one, the people who tend to buy Rigol are mostly hobbyists and beginners, and they are usually much more forgiving towards those problems than experienced engineers. Do you really think any professional would accept that some of the functionality of what at the end of the day is a tool doesn't work or works erroneously? No serious lab would waste valuable engineer's time to work around flaws of a cheap piece of test equipment. There's a reason why the big brands still have a strong foothold in the professional sector, with cheap brands like Rigol or Siglent being close to irrelevance even when looking only at low end test gear.
Second, and more important, it is completely irrelevant if a device is owned by a pedantic person or not, or if the owner actually needs a specific function or not. Any buyer can rightfully expect that the functionality that was promoted works correctly when the device was bought, and not at some arbitrary point in the future. In many countries this is even by law. If you're satisfied when functionality in a product you bought and for which you paid for doesn't work then more fool to you.
I get that you're obviously fascinated by Rigol kit, but the main reason some Rigol kit is worth buying is because it's cheap, and good enough for modest requirements of most beginners and many hobbyists, and because of the low price and because for them electronics is just a hobby and not a way to earn a living, they can usually live with the fact that the kit is buggy and that they will have to wait for problems to be fixed.
Rigol was the first to get price/features right but isn't the only one. Siglent offers mostly similar kit in this class (and for some things like low end AWGs even has a much more attractive portfolio than Rigol), aside from the DS1kz (and I'll guess we'll see some competition there, soon).
Well, from the test equipment sellers I know well enough to talk about sales - Rigol is destroying Siglent in sales. So the market doesn't agree that their portfolio is much more attractive, or even more attractive at all.
More hyperbole? Your electronics cornershop may sell more Rigol kit than Siglent, but the fact is that most of Siglent's kit is sold under the label of other brands, from bottom-of-the-barrel names like Atten to Teledyne LeCroy. Rigol kit these days is, well, sold as Rigol (I think Agilent/Keysight stopped sales of their Rigol rebadges a while ago).
Also, while Rigol's DS1054z scope is a clear winner as a beginner's scope, other Rigol kit isn't necessarily as attractive. For example, for low end AWGs Rigol still only offers the outdated DG1022U which looks pretty poor against the Siglent's SDG800 and SDG1000 Series of AWGs, which happen to sell really well. And Rigol's more expensive kit is even more unattractive, i.e. the DS4000 and DS6000 scopes (which are pretty awful offerings in this class and price range), which is why they sell pretty bad. The Rigol DG4000 is a decent AWG (although like other Rigol products it arrived with embarassing bugs), but the same can't be said about the newer DG1000z Series which is pretty expensive, and again suffers from some annoying problems.
Rigol will come up with new products when they feel the need for it, i.e. when there are more similar products and sales figures will drop. Until then they'll just sell on what they have now.
Yes, like every company in the history of commerce does. The only companies that engage in R&D for the sake of it are those run by engineers who are shitty businessmen and they tend to go out of business quickly.
First, Rigol doesn't do "Research". Nada, zilch. They certainly do "Development" but all based on cheap standard COTS components. Most of their effort is probably limited to the case/shielding and the PCB layout, plus the firmware. This is why Rigol can be so cheap.
Companies that do "Research" usually do it to push technology further which gives them an edge over their competition, plus it increases the company's patent portfolio which can be helpful in case they are sued for infringement. But "Research" costs money, money which in some cases the company will never (fully) recover if some new technology turns out to be a dead end.
The fact that Rigol mostly uses cheap components to create simpler and cheaper devices is perfectly fine, and products like theirs obviously have a place in the market. But it's silly to think that they have similar long and complex development cycles like the big brands who do a lot of research and design their own ASICs.
-
I've never waited longer than 5 minutes, in my 15+ requests.
:-DD
-
I've never waited longer than 5 minutes, in my 15+ requests.
:-DD
Maybe you should check your spam filters/email provider. The emails that contain the firmware links are sent automatically by a script.
-
Maybe you should check your spam filters/email provider. The emails that contain the firmware links are sent automatically by a script.
:-DD
-
Yeah, you add a lot to the conversation. Classy.
-
Yeah, you add a lot to the conversation. Classy.
I've never waited longer than 5 minutes, in my 15+ requests.
:-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD
-
you get the a link to the file emailed within 10 minutes even outside of work hours.
No you don't, I've done it dozens of times for my 815, DG400 and MSO4000. Usually requires 3-4 attempts before support finally replies, and i've waiting days between each attempt.
It worked for me, I got a response on a Saturday in the early morning hours. Im in Canada, email was sent to Rigol North America via the web form. It was for DP832 firmware. Hmm maybe only some models have automatic response scripts?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Could be a new video for Dave. Instead of comparing products for Volts, Amps, and Ohms accuracy he could submit requests for product firmware and other support, and then compare responses for timeliness :)
-
Could be a new video for Dave. Instead of comparing products for Volts, Amps, and Ohms accuracy he could submit requests for product firmware and other support, and then compare responses for timeliness :)
That's a winner
-
Could be a new video for Dave. Instead of comparing products for Volts, Amps, and Ohms accuracy he could submit requests for product firmware and other support, and then compare responses for timeliness :)
That's a winner
"Hi, I've just hit the send button and look at this dumbass response."
-
Could be a new video for Dave. Instead of comparing products for Volts, Amps, and Ohms accuracy he could submit requests for product firmware and other support, and then compare responses for timeliness :)
That's a winner
"Hi, I've just hit the send button and look at this dumbass response."
Do it like a contest, time to reply and solve. Like the Top Gear speed test.
-
I've never waited longer than 5 minutes, in my 15+ requests.
:-DD
Maybe you should check your spam filters/email provider. The emails that contain the firmware links are sent automatically by a script.
Or check how your email supplier filters. Huge numbers of people have all mail from Chinese locations filtered from their incoming email stream, and most don't even realise it.
-
You raised an important question about open source/open hardware tools, i would buy Open Source/open hardware test gear if the specs were interesting even if the price was a bit higher. If the specs were good and if the architecture were modular in a way that each part could be upgraded individually it could be a winner.
Best regards,
João Carvalho
-
You raised an important question about open source/open hardware tools, i would buy Open Source/open hardware test gear if the specs were interesting even if the price was a bit higher. If the specs were good and if the architecture were modular in a way that each part could be upgraded individually it could be a winner.
Best regards,
João Carvalho
I agree!
This stuff is quite ignored in the OSHW movement, unfortunately. There's small steps, but not a big project like a 50-100MHz scope.
https://lwn.net/Articles/515569/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/welecw2000a/ <- Firmware replacement for scope!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/oshw/open-source-oscilloscope/
-
You raised an important question about open source/open hardware tools, i would buy Open Source/open hardware test gear if the specs were interesting even if the price was a bit higher. If the specs were good and if the architecture were modular in a way that each part could be upgraded individually it could be a winner.
Best regards,
João Carvalho
I agree!
This stuff is quite ignored in the OSHW movement, unfortunately.
There has to be a proven market for that sort of thing. Not impossible but very improbable. The hobbyist market is not massive.
A few customizable buttons, math functions and splash/help screens will cover most needs. More likely would be options like that (set up via usb). It would be super useful just to set up your favorite functions on one screen (to reduce menu navigation).
-
You raised an important question about open source/open hardware tools, i would buy Open Source/open hardware test gear if the specs were interesting even if the price was a bit higher. If the specs were good and if the architecture were modular in a way that each part could be upgraded individually it could be a winner.
Best regards,
João Carvalho
I agree!
This stuff is quite ignored in the OSHW movement, unfortunately.
There has to be a proven market for that sort of thing. Not impossible but very improbable. The hobbyist market is not massive.
A few customizable buttons, math functions and splash/help screens will cover most needs. More likely would be options like that (set up via usb). It would be super useful just to set up your favorite functions on one screen (to reduce menu navigation).
A serious crowdfunding campaign promoted by important pro-oshw organizations would make it possible. There's cheap components out there used by the Chinese and there's one Open Source firmware that can be a good start.
No doubt it can be a titanic task, but it would be a very disruptive breakthrough for the OSHW movement.
The same about OSHW was said about FOSS, and these days it's gaining an extremely exponential market penetration. There's need for some important niches to be covered, but there's software evolving on most of them, despite many of these projects aren't enough sponsored and lack of a robust organization.
This could be even positive for the market, it could rise competition too.
-
The same about OSHW was said about FOSS
No, it wasn't, and it's said about OSH for a reason.
The thing is that literally anyone who wants to and who has access to some computer can start writing software (maybe not necessarily good or particularly useful software, but still). The costs of entry are very low (computers are cheap and older ones can often even be had for free, and there are tons of tools and languages available), plus one can do that literally anywhere if you use a laptop.
Hardware is different. The necessary knowledge level is much higher (just because someone can built stuff using existing components doesn't mean he can actually design new components), it requires infrastructure (a lab) which limits very much where you can do that, and it requires noticeable investments in the form of tools and test equipment. Of course you can do some stuff in simulations but simulations are very limited (and often don't reflect real-life behavior accurately enough), and require software that's generally pretty costly as well. At some point you have to build prototypes (i.e. more $$$). If you got something wrong in your hardware design you can't just write a simple patch, best case is you have to re-work every produced unit, and worst case you can scrap them all and produce new.
I lost count of how many OSH projects people came up with over the years that went no-where, mostly for the reasons above.
In addition there is the issue that people generally expect their test equipment to be reliable, which isn't necessarily a feature of open source development models.
-
I've never waited longer than 5 minutes, in my 15+ requests.
:-DD
Maybe you should check your spam filters/email provider. The emails that contain the firmware links are sent automatically by a script.
They've never even tried to send me an email. And I've requested firmware several times now. Ended up digging a link out of a thread.
-
Ok, so I was talking with a Rigol support engineer today. Rigol has just recently automated firmware request page, hence why some got pretty much instant results, and all the rest of us have been pissed off the past few years.
Anyhow, FYI.
-
Ok, so I was talking with a Rigol support engineer today. Rigol has just recently automated firmware request page, hence why some got pretty much instant results, and all the rest of us have been pissed off the past few years.
Anyhow, FYI.
I tried after people started raving on about instant firmware.. and nothing. So much for that.
-
I tried after people started raving on about instant firmware.. and nothing. So much for that.
LMAO, sigh, they never cease to disappoint. :palm:
-
Ok, so I was talking with a Rigol support engineer today. Rigol has just recently automated firmware request page, hence why some got pretty much instant results, and all the rest of us have been pissed off the past few years.
Anyhow, FYI.
ahh, interesting.
Yeah, as I mentioned I have always received an email with a firmware link in under 5 minutes. However, I have only owned Rigol products since December of last year.
I do run my own DNS and mail servers, so I have more control over my email receipt and filtering--maybe this is why I receive the links so quickly. I believed it to be automated due ton the quick response, and the fact that I have received near immediate responses at all hours of the day and night.
-
FWIW: I just (20 minutes ago) filled in the online form requesting the latest firmware for my DS4k scope, 5 minutes later I had the link to it in my inbox.
After submitting the request you'll get the following:Thank You for requesting a firmware update. For most models the latest version will be automatically emailed to you shortly. For some models, we will manually determine the best firmware based on your serial number and get back to you as soon as possible.
I've just requested the latest fimrware for my DG4k as well, will see if that works too.
EDIT: Yep, received that too within minutes.
I DID fill in all the required fields and I DID enter model, serial and firmware version in the text box. Don't know if it matters....
-
I've just requested the latest fimrware for my DG4k as well, will see if that works too.
EDIT: Yep, received that too within minutes.
I DID fill in all the required fields and I DID enter model, serial and firmware version in the text box. Don't know if it matters....
Same here. I requested the latest firmware for my DS1054Z at 8:41 filling all fields in the web form, and I received an email reply back with the link to the update at 8:53. :-+
-
Yes, I have always entered my model, serial, and current firmware versions (each on a separate line, as requested). I'm not sure if they actually parse/check this data though, as I have entered (for example) "Current Firmware: a.b.c" and still got the email within minutes.
All of that said, this "request firmware" rigmarole is bizarre and non-professional (IMHO).
-
Well, I just tried for a third time.. Now I'm watching the mail logs for the complete lack of attempt to send an email to the address I gave them.