Older style Multimeters v Newer ones

[Specmaster]

With the massive on going threads devoted to meters that meet specs, those that don't etc, I can't really help but wonder what about those of us who have been in the industry all their working lives and may, like me reached retirement age, or those that are about to reach that age, and are still using older meters? Are we at great risk of personal injury now because the specs have been increased, should we cease using our old type instruments, despite them having served us well and still in many cases continue to do so?

I have in my tool kit the following meters, all now used on my electronics work bench.

Analogue
Robin Kew Flat Tester Model 1503, my equivalent to Dave's little pocket meter, crappy leads on it so would not dream of using it on a live 230v circuit, but it is 100k per volt on DC and 10k per volt AC. 1000v AC & DC

TMK500 1000v AC&DC, 30k per volt DC and 15k per volt AC, good little meter.

TMK700 20k per volt DC but only 4k on AC but voltages up to 5,000 on both DC and AC.

AVO8 20k per volt DC, 2k on AC 3,000v AC&DC. This meter was the industry standard for many years for electrical and electronic engineers alike and indeed was written in to the service manuals for many pieces of electronic equipment as the meter that all the voltages were cross referenced to.

None of the above have any form of finger guards on the probes and the Avo came with uninsulated croc clips to add to the danger but many of us professionals never had any issues using them at all.

DMM's
Robin OM 840, 1,000vDC, 750vAC data hold button but has separate ON/OFF switch.

Proster VC97 Auto ranging 1000vDC and 750vAC, data hold button.

Bside ADMO80A True RMS, 1,000vDC, 750vAC data hold button (manual ranging)

Kikusui 1502 bench meter 1,000vAC and DC.

Like so many things, it comes down to due diligence when using any piece of equipment and we are all at the end of the day responsible for our own safety.

[MosherIV]

Hi

I would compare it to modern cars and classic cars. Both will get you from A to B.
A modern car is more fuel efficient, more comfertable, have more features and has significant safety features over the classic cars.

Yes, diligence is essential in staying safe but there is always the chance you are having a bad day.

Should you abandon your old meters?
They still work.

Are they a safety risk?
Modern dmm have better safety. What will hapoen to ine of those old meters if you leave it on Ohms and measure mians voltage?

You have tha advantage of a lifetime of skill and experience, some beginners will nit so it is better to help out beginners by advising them to get safe dmms.

[Neilm]

People who have been in the electricity industry for a long time were properly trained when they were young. Buying a meter when they were young was expensive so the meters were taken care of and they were careful that they would not damage the meter.

Nowadays, any idiot can by a meter for less money than many magazines so they aren't valued. Not only that, the people using it are not trained and are totatly ignorent of the potential dangers. The only thing that then keeps them safe is the inherent safety of the meter they are using - and if they have spent that little on the meter it probably isn't safe at all.

Over the interviening time, people have expected things to shrink and get cheaper so there isn't the room for circuit breakers and you don't find meters in cherrywood boxes anymore.

[switcher]

^^ This resonates with me. I was (a very long time ago) properly taught how to use a meter, and other test equipment.
Wo-betide anyone who stepped outside the correct procedure for taking a measurement. When you had finished making said measurement, the meter range switch(es) were set to the highet ACV range. Always. I still do this now with my Fluke 8060A, its second-nature.

Nowadays, anyone and everyone expect to be able to close their eyes, twiddle a meter to any setting, measure the current in the mains (don't try this at home, kids) and be unconditionally protected from evil.

And to answer the OP; I prefer older meters, from back when stuff was made properly.

[retiredcaps]

Buying a meter when they were young was expensive so the meters were taken care of and they were careful that they would not damage the meter.

I read stories of people saving up their entire first paycheck so that can buy a Fluke 8060A or 87 (depending on your generation) and then carefully reading the manual, following good procedures, etc  and taking care of their first meter.

Nowadays, people buy whatever and put in on their credit card, making minimum payments and paying 29% interest and then throwing it away when the meter doesn't work.

Fluke, of course, today, has a vested interested in seeing you upgrade.  See their reasons why you should upgrade.

http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/download/asset/2386856_a_w.pdf

"What do you mean, my meter’s obsolete?"

[metrologist]

Are we at great risk of personal injury now because the specs have been increased, should we cease using our old type instruments, despite them having served us well and still in many cases continue to do so?

The risk has not changed, except for the age of the meter and user. You might get senile and forget what you are doing, or something might fail in the meter.

[joeqsmith]

The risk has not changed, except for the age of the meter and user. You might get senile and forget what you are doing, or something might fail in the meter.

I doubt that the risk has not changed over the course of the last say 60 years.  I am sure some things have improved that have lowed the risk in some areas, while it has increased in others.

I continue to embraced new equipment.  Not so much from the safety aspect but rather from the ability to do things that I could not  just a short time earlier.   

[Mechatrommer]

With the massive on going threads devoted to meters that meet specs, those that don't etc, I can't really help but wonder what about those of us who have been in the industry all their working lives and may, like me reached retirement age, or those that are about to reach that age, and are still using older meters? Are we at great risk of personal injury now because the specs have been increased, should we cease using our old type instruments, despite them having served us well and still in many cases continue to do so?

dont listen to those poisonous thread crap, you only listen if you have something you are not happy with your tools or otherwise have extra time to waste. you are the master of your own tools, its sad you have to question this at your own age and got sucked up by those man-yack.

[tautech]

With the massive on going threads devoted to meters that meet specs, those that don't etc, I can't really help but wonder what about those of us who have been in the industry all their working lives and may, like me reached retirement age, or those that are about to reach that age, and are still using older meters? Are we at great risk of personal injury now because the specs have been increased, should we cease using our old type instruments, despite them having served us well and still in many cases continue to do so?

dont listen to those poisonous thread crap, you only listen if you have something you are not happy with your tools or otherwise have extra time to waste. you are the master of your own tools, its sad you have to question this at your own age and got sucked up by those man-yack.

+1

But man yack ? 

Searching for a better word..........
Suggestions welcome. 

[Specmaster]

With the massive on going threads devoted to meters that meet specs, those that don't etc, I can't really help but wonder what about those of us who have been in the industry all their working lives and may, like me reached retirement age, or those that are about to reach that age, and are still using older meters? Are we at great risk of personal injury now because the specs have been increased, should we cease using our old type instruments, despite them having served us well and still in many cases continue to do so?

dont listen to those poisonous thread crap, you only listen if you have something you are not happy with your tools or otherwise have extra time to waste. you are the master of your own tools, its sad you have to question this at your own age and got sucked up by those man-yack.

What I was doing was taking a sideways swipe at that massive thread by posing a tongue in cheek rhetorical question / statement etc or what ever have you. As others have already pointed out quite rightly in this thread, we were taught correctly back in our day and we were taught to always switch the meter back to the highest AC voltage range before putting it away. I purchased my very own meter many years, it was the TMK500 and it is still like new today, in its leather carrying case, as is my TMK700 and AVO8, the first two I purchased new and the AVO8 is recent purchase secondhand and is not in the same condition as my TMK's although to be fair, not bad condition either, but it certainly hasn't been looked after in the same fashion. 

[metrologist]

The risk has not changed, except for the age of the meter and user. You might get senile and forget what you are doing, or something might fail in the meter.

I doubt that the risk has not changed over the course of the last say 60 years.  I am sure some things have improved that have lowed the risk in some areas, while it has increased in others.

The potential safety has improved, if you use new equipment, but if you use the same equipment to measure the same thing today, and the only thing that has changed is the passage of time, how is that more risky today than it was 60 years ago? (no quibbling about medical life saving advancements)

It's like Russian Roulette, pick up the same old revolver you did 60 years ago and spin the cylinder, you have the same risk despite all the new firearms safety regs, no?

Has something else in the environment changed to increase the inherent [lack of] safety in the old gear?

[Muxr]

Electronics as a hobby have likely become safer over the years than they were back in the day.

Tubes have been replaced by transistors, CRTs have been replaced by LCDs, Fluorescent tubes by LEDs (all of which trade high voltage for "safe" voltages).. unless you're working on mains or power supplies, chances are you don't come across circuits with high voltages often.

If you're buying a new handheld DMM, there is a lot of choice for little money now days too. So why not get the safest meter you can get for the money.

If you prefer vintage test instruments (I get it, I like some of my old scopes too), then by all means use it. When it comes to DMMs, I am just too spoiled by the new features to go back, although I will from time to time use my 8060a just for the kicks.

[joeqsmith]

The risk has not changed, except for the age of the meter and user. You might get senile and forget what you are doing, or something might fail in the meter.

I doubt that the risk has not changed over the course of the last say 60 years.  I am sure some things have improved that have lowed the risk in some areas, while it has increased in others.

The potential safety has improved, if you use new equipment, but if you use the same equipment to measure the same thing today, and the only thing that has changed is the passage of time, how is that more risky today than it was 60 years ago? (no quibbling about medical life saving advancements)

It's like Russian Roulette, pick up the same old revolver you did 60 years ago and spin the cylinder, you have the same risk despite all the new firearms safety regs, no?

Has something else in the environment changed to increase the inherent [lack of] safety in the old gear?

If all things were the same I agree but that is not going to be the case.  Aging infrastructure  and increase in demand in of itself may increase the risk.     Aging equipment (leads drying out and cracking or wires breaking for example) may increase the risk.   I just doubt the risk stays constant.

[Elf]

As others have already pointed out quite rightly in this thread, we were taught correctly back in our day and we were taught to always switch the meter back to the highest AC voltage range before putting it away.

Following safety procedures like that becomes second nature; similar to how (most) people who drive a manual transmission always use the parking brake. It bothers me not to do that.

In any case I own two Simpson 260s and an assortment of other analog meters I use regularly when I don't need high precision measurements. "Enjoyment of use" is something I value a lot in a tool as long as it meets the other basic requirements, and analog meters provide a lot of it.

I wouldn't call a traditional analog VOM "unsafe" just because you can blow it by measuring the resistance of a live circuit. That was a mistake I made once when I was younger, using a meter without any instruction. After the leaking battery and awful smell I figured out what had gone wrong and have always since disconnected the meter whenever changing ranges, and likewise have always started at the highest (reasonable) range and gone down from there.

Excepting beginners, if you are careless enough to sweep across ohms or current while connected to a powered circuit I think there are many other things that will get you, outside of a meter.

[retiredcaps]

I still do this now with my Fluke 8060A, its second-nature.

If you are a Fluke 8060A owner, you may find this lengthy read and audio recording interesting?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/

Also, there is a good chance, despite taking good care of your meter, that the capacitors in the 8060A are leaking or soon to leak and require replacement.

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8060a-repair/

[blacksheeplogic]

As others have already pointed out quite rightly in this thread, we were taught correctly back in our day

Those who taught back in the day we also respectful as well. Some of us picked up those traits and I guess some did not.

[alm]

I think it is hard to argue that modern quality meters are not safer than old quality meters. Just like how a modern car with safety belts, airbags and crumple zones is safer than a car produced before there features were common. Is this extra safety necessary? I am sure that part of it is due to risk tolerance: employees getting injured/killed on the job is considered less acceptable and more money is spent (or wasted, depending on your viewpoint) to prevent it. Pretty sure OSHA did not yet exist when many analog meters got designed. Knowledge improves safety, but it not linked to a particular kind of meter: nothing prevents someone with a lot of experience from buying a Fluke 101, and someone who picks up a VOM will not magically become more experienced and careful.

Are old meters less safe than a few decades ago? Ageing of materials (e.g. insulation cracking) was already mentioned. I would also expect modern mains circuits to be more noisy, lower impedance (breakers are often higher values, heavier wire gauges) then back when mains wiring was designed for lighting and a single fridge . It would not surprise me if the number of transient events are also higher.

[MosherIV]

Building on what alm and other have said, yes moderm dmms are built with better safety features that may not have even been considered back in the day.
Look at Dave's old video where he wontally blows up dmms:


How would an old style coil meter survive this kind of transient?

Can it happen in real life - probably but the likelyhood is low, very low. After all how often are you probing mains before the fuse box?

Interresting point about components aging. The worst components are going to be capacitors.
The MOVs/Varistors used in modern dmms actually degrade every time they protect the meter.
(Someone just posted about a repair to a Fluke87 where the MOVs had to be replaced).

At the end of the day, it is up to the end user.

[Specmaster]

Now here's the thing with analogue moving coil instruments, the only protection that was afforded to them was fuses and maybe a diode across the coil to take care of transients. They never contained capacitors, all resistors were 1% wirewound or equivalent so there was really nothing to go wrong through aging internally. Leads, yes they can and do age with use if not looked after correctly and can crack etc. But Leads can be replaced with new sets every so often to ensure that the insulation properties are maintained. None of my older TMK meters have ever seen an overload, still have the sames fuses they came with leads are all in 100% perfect condition.

Out of my main old style analogues, TMK500, TMK700 and AVO 8 (arguably supposed to be the superior meter and benchmark setter of the 3), it is in my opinion the worst when it comes down to user interface and the associated risks in use. Let me explain my reasons for this, firstly leads for AVO's come in 2 types, the first is with open spades that need to clamped under the terminal posts on the meter, the second with push in enclosed 4mm banana jacks which are the better ones. Both of these then have to have a probe or a croc clip inserted into yet more banana sockets on the end of the leads before the meter is usable. These are weak points in the system, worse still these weak points are by the nature of the socket / plug scenario for the final tool selection, in very close proximity to the operator's hands.

The TMK's come with very high quality banana plugs and first class plastic grips that offer extremely high insulation values both at the point of meter connection and probes. If you want to use croc clips then you have to source new set of leads fitted with banana plugs and croc clips, no compromises made there.

With regard to aging caps on the older electronic digital meters, that is not a difficult job to do is it?

Of course modern meters are inherently far safer, just as modern cars are, but they, like cars come with varying degrees of enhanced safety, but like cars, it doesn't mean that the old gear should be confined to the scrap heap or become museum pieces, it means that like old cars, you treat them with the respect that they deserve and use in safe manner just as they have done for years. 

[saturation]

For DMM, CAT rating basically defined what is safe from unsafe for particular usage.  It doesn't mean the DMM is non-functional, but in the USA if a workplace injury can be traced to the use of a DMM without CAT rating or  improper use of a CAT rated device, the contractor can be held accountable by the Federal gov't.

As for using old equipment, reduced safety beyond CAT ratings vary quite a bit because components age at different rates, it roughly depends on how often its used, to usage that causes wear and tear [ heat generators, as well as high voltage and current] and to what environment its exposed too.  For example, a lot of metrology grade equipment remains useful despite its age, as there are few wear tear elements its exposed too, e.g. the HP3458A.

In the USA, 'useful life' determines the lifespan of most gear to an organization and hence a practical definition of lifespan, here as example:

https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/omb/circulars/a076/a076sa3.html

Which differs from its real life as a useful tool:

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/useful-life.html


Of if you or your gov't are concerned about whether hazmats exists in your device, then the China RoHS EFUP labels act as guide to its life to the user:

[rstofer]

Wo-betide anyone who stepped outside the correct procedure for taking a measurement. When you had finished making said measurement, the meter range switch(es) were set to the highet ACV range. Always. I still do this now with my Fluke 8060A, its second-nature.

Too bad the Simpson 260 Transit position is the 500 mA range...

I have seen the results of testing 480V with a 260 on the wrong range.  With around 100k Amps of available fault current, there wasn't much left.  The tech survived but got out of the electrical testing part of the business.  He was working out of his pay grade anyway...

[rstofer]

In the USA, 'useful life' determines the lifespan of most gear to an organization and hence a practical definition of lifespan, here as example:

https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/omb/circulars/a076/a076sa3.html

Which differs from its real life as a useful tool:

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/useful-life.html

Useful life probably pertains to depreciation schedules for tax purposes.  As the document states, "physical life or economic life" will probably differ.

So, I might be able to depreciate a high dollar scope over 10 years but since the replacement cost is so high, I am unlikely to replace it.  The economic life, and the fact that it still works, probably overrides the economic life.

What I probably don't do is replace it the day the depreciation amount goes to zero.

[Vtile]

Wo-betide anyone who stepped outside the correct procedure for taking a measurement. When you had finished making said measurement, the meter range switch(es) were set to the highet ACV range. Always. I still do this now with my Fluke 8060A, its second-nature.

Too bad the Simpson 260 Transit position is the 500 mA range...

I have seen the results of testing 480V with a 260 on the wrong range.  With around 100k Amps of available fault current, there wasn't much left.  The tech survived but got out of the electrical testing part of the business.  He was working out of his pay grade anyway...

Where we come to the point that the most dangerous part of the DMM/AMM is the center M-letter in the acronym. That is the word multi and that is not changed. 

[BravoV]

Buying a meter when they were young was expensive so the meters were taken care of and they were careful that they would not damage the meter.

I read stories of people saving up their entire first paycheck so that can buy a Fluke 8060A or 87 (depending on your generation) and then carefully reading the manual, following good procedures, etc  and taking care of their first meter.

Simpson 260 in 1946 ...

[Specmaster]

If you had to pay out that much today to replace a meter each time it got destroyed, I think you would think twice about what you was doing and take more care?