Author Topic: Help: PC based mixed signal oscilloscope, Hantek 3254(A) VS Picoscope 2206(B)  (Read 2687 times)

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Offline MrW0lf

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My biggest grieve is the limited count of only 1000 max. for the measurement statistics. This means you cannot have a long-term average and – even worse – not run some experiment for hours and then determine the correct min/max values for some measurements for the entire timespan.
Yes you are absolutely correct.

+1, "Coffe break" workaround from software dev perspective would be disable 1000 max check or move it up to some ridiculous number. Better two options: unlimited; limited to x. Better still personal limit override possibility for each different measurement. Also it badly needs [reset] button (not Run|Stop capture like now!). Better still possibility to reset each measurement individually. Also column auto-width should work better or need possibility to manually scale. I'd suggest to apply relentless pressure thru their support forum or directly to support to get such 1 day programming jobs nearer to the top of priority list.

Another example:
https://www.picotech.com/support/topic27711.html
integral(derivative(X)) does not work. If anyone cares - tell them. I'm waiting for 2 years already. If wondering whats the point of this - it's basic integrity check. If this works then several of the other bugs and "cannot do's" around time shifted traces, or traces with different record lengths will "fix themselves".
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 09:17:57 pm by MrW0lf »
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Done, one evening work, despite had to learn Python in progress... Long term stats: Update rate ~1Hz. Arb decimal places. Full auto sync with in-GUI measurements (Add, Remove). Feeds real time on little known "human readable" CLI interface that is quite nasty to parse.


 

Offline Elektronik

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Not everyone who knows how to upload a video is automatically qualified to review modern T&M gear.

I have 3 PicoScopes for private use (2 x 3000 series, 1 x 4000 series) and for professional use I have made sure my whole R&D department got equipped with PicoScope 3000 series MSO. You bet if there were any serious issues with these instruments, I would know it.


Please, be so kind and upload a video that proofs that you are right.
Or are you not able to do so?

PicoTech has thousands of PicoScopes, but obviously did not know that ROLL Mode and ALTERNATE Trigger is compulsory for serious measurements.
But I read in another forum, they will add it.

Thousands of Diesel-drivers did not know they cars were manipulated.
And if you believe the CEOs, they did not know either.

I guess you did not know anything even if you had three hundred.

Rohde & Schwarz, Tektronix, Keysight etc. - they all have Roll mode and alternate trigger though some manufacturers use different names for it. Guess why they have it? Because nobody needs it, right?

Even Peaktech and crappy Hantek has alternate trigger.

Ok, if you only want to see the output of the signal generator on one channel, it is redundant, but other people want to measure some more things.

Oh armes Österreich.  :-DD
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Shots fired :scared: but ammunition not military spec :P

 

Offline Elektronik

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What PicoScope oscilloscope and what PicoScope Software did you use ?

 

Offline Elektronik

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Got it.

This is AUTOMOTIVE SOFTWARE !  Does NOT work with PICOSCOPE 5444D MSO.

Stop kidding us  or  learn reading posts.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Got it.

This is AUTOMOTIVE SOFTWARE !  Does NOT work with PICOSCOPE 5444D MSO.

Stop kidding us  or  learn reading posts.

So far all YOU proved to us is that your bedside manners could do with an improvement  and that you might like improper nationalist statements-...

Picoscope has alternate trigger by using logic trigger.. It's in a manual, but that require actually reading manual. It is easier to just mouth off random statements.
And, I very rarely use alternate trigger in my work. Pretty much I can't remember when was the last time I used it.
If it really wasn't there I wouldn't care. It is hardly PREREQUISITE to profesional work in mixed signal environments.
Most of the time I want as many signals as I can correlated to common clock or something...

Normal Picoscope software doesn't have Roll mode in a menu...
But what MrW0lf showed you (if you payed attention) was that if you are in a scan mode (slow scan) and you take trigger and drag it to top right corner of screen, it WILL behave as if in a ROLL mode.
And that works in a normal and  automotive version of software.
I have confirmed that for my 3406D MSO.

So, it might not have those capabilities in a menu, but it has them. If you know how to use it.
And it would be wise to listen to wise man that do this for a living and that are Picoscope users for years. You might learn something from them.  Even from a guy from Austria, Croatia or Estonia....
Just ask, nicely...

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Sinisa
 

Offline Elektronik

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You take people for fool.

Those settings are ridiculous jugglery, but it ain´t roll mode.

Show the complete video from the very beginning and people will know it is jugglery.
Change the waveform (from sine to square or whatever you want to) or the time base setting during operation using your weird settings and you will notice, too, that that is not roll mode.  :palm:

PicoTechnology confirmed, there is no roll mode and no alternate trigger.

Either you don´t have the slighest idea what roll mode and alternate triggers mean or you are selling Picoscopes.

I do not expect you vendors to know how real engineers measure but I expect everyone to keep his mouth shut if he does not have the slighest idea of what he is talking about and mistakes apples for oranges.

Your dumb theatre show is just shameful and embarrassing.
It is useless to talk with dumb and unteachable folks / vendors about real technology.
 

Offline MrW0lf

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PicoTechnology confirmed, there is no roll mode and no alternate trigger.

They do not know their software as well as some... :P
What source did you use when saw funny stuff - internal generator?

Change the waveform (from sine to square or whatever you want to)

:-//



« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 08:51:44 am by MrW0lf »
 

Offline Elektronik

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Another ridiculous jugglery.

First, please be so kind and start the video from the very beginning, when the trace starts at left corner and then goes to the right side.
Roll mode generally starts from right to left. That is the first point.

Then plz change the time base at Picoscope Software while the trace is running and you see it is NOT roll mode.

Whenever you are investigating a fault, then you cannot change the faulty circuit, but you have to change the oscilloscope settings.

I am curious whether you dare to upload a video showing changes in time base and still call that weird setting roll mode ?!

Single shot works with roll mode, how do you do that will your weird settings?

Show us , please !

P.S. Are you a programmer or a vendor of Pico scopes?
Maybe should take a class to learn how to work with oscilloscopes, obviously you don´t know whether a features work properly or not, or maybe you should find another hobby.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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First, please be so kind and start the video from the very beginning, when the trace starts at left corner and then goes to the right side.
Roll mode generally starts from right to left. That is the first point.
Unless I am wrong, the white background screen is the oscilloscope and the black one is the signal generator waveform. If so, it looks like roll mode to me.

Then plz change the time base at Picoscope Software while the trace is running and you see it is NOT roll mode.
I don't use roll mode very often, but in the Tek at work I recall it clears the screen when the timebase is changed.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online nctnico

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First, please be so kind and start the video from the very beginning, when the trace starts at left corner and then goes to the right side.
Roll mode generally starts from right to left. That is the first point.
Unless I am wrong, the white background screen is the oscilloscope and the black one is the signal generator waveform. If so, it looks like roll mode to me.
The screen with the white background is obviously the oscilloscope trace. I don't see anything wrong with how the roll mode works.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Elektronik

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That is the point, roll mode never clears the screen. There are never any breaks. No matter whether you change time base, Volt/div or whatever.
Roll mode also has single shot triggering.

Picoscope does not have roll mode - so far. That´s it.
That is no problem. Let´s hope it will be implemented by next software update.

But it is a problem if people insist on their wrong opinion, attack others and are not willing to accept the facts.
I really don´t understand why you are so obsessed by that topic.

What do you mean by "Tek" oscilloscope?
Tektronix has a real roll mode, no clearing screen.
Tekway does not have roll mode, it is clearing screen.
My Rohde & Schwarz has roll mode, and so does Keysight.
And even some cheap handheld scopes and some crappy Hantek rigs (a jerky one, but it is roll mode).

I really wonder why no one talks about the other bugs shown in the video on http://www.afug-info.de
It took some time, but I tested my picoscope according to that video and I regret but it is true, all bugs can be confirmed.
I hope for a speedy software update and that is what we all should do.
 

Offline MrW0lf

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First, please be so kind and start the video from the very beginning, when the trace starts at left corner and then goes to the right side. Roll mode generally starts from right to left. That is the first point.

So, it's not a general case then (in your book), but specific to given instrument. But it is a roll mode as witnessed by local connoisseurs. :)

Single shot works with roll mode, how do you do that will your weird settings?

Set trigger to [Single] :-//

Since this seems to be rather new and confusing instrument to you maybe I'll post later some new chapter in PicoScope 2000 thread since software is common. USB 3.0 scopes just have 20MSa/s max shared bw in Slow Sampling mode, instead of 10MSa/s on USB 2.0 scopes (2000).

Edit: I checked with other brand USB scope - Analog Discovery 2. There are two modes: Shift and Screen. Screen is same as Pico Slow Sampling with Display previous Waveform Buffer option enabled. Shift is same as Pico with trigger trick. Eg in both cases it starts from the left and goes for new scan or starts rolling when reaching right extremum. Also it resets when changing sampling rate. It is inevitable because changing ack setting would cause some gap in data (and horror and doom for post processing - math etc).
I can only speculate how it is possible with seamless ack as you claim. Probably timebase on these scopes is just underdeveloped type of zoom and ack would still halt if change some more "serious" setting eg memory depth or sampling rate. On Picos you can often leave timebase alone and browse around with zoom, in multiple viewports if needed.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 07:52:42 am by MrW0lf »
 

Offline Audi

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Hi everyone,

The "Elektronik"-guy is right, there is no gap or break in ack in roll mode. There is also no break/clearing screen when changing the time base or something else. That would lead to loss of data. The purpose of roll mode that data does not get lost.
Roll mode is always rolling continously from right to left edge of the screen, anything else is not roll mode.  :-BROKE   During roll mode, the trigger has one function: it stops the ack after one full screen from right to left. the Picoscope 5444D MSO from the video has 5000seconds/Div, that is almost 14 hours. So after almost 14 hours the single trigger would stop ack.
I have been working with oscilloscopes for decades (as an engineer, not as a seller or sales rep as many here on this forum) and I have never seen any oscilloscope in roll mode doing what was shown here. If I ever came across such a behaviour or gap in roll mode, I would give the scope back. Would do the same if alternate trigger was missing.
I think some misunderstandings happened in this thread and I wanted to add a little vid showing roll mode how it should be, but just noticed that video-uploads are not permitted. Sorry for the bad news guys, but that is just how it is.
 

Offline 2N3055

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User Elektronik has 8 posts, two of which are commercials for that web site with review. Other posts are rude and insulting. And now new account...

And again, same insults.  None of us in this topic sell scopes or have web site we try to promote.
Stop repeating that.

There are now two sock puppet accounts in this topic, Elektronik, and Audi....

If you want to have more users on your web site, make sure you have good material, and write in English. Web site in German won't have global market.
Not fair, but it's just how it is.

 
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Offline egonotto

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Hello,

I use PicoScope® 6 - PC-Oszilloskop-Software Version: 6.12.7.2687

If you take the adjustment like MrW0lf in his video, then the screen starts from left and rolls until the trigger condition are fulfilled. Than the trace started again from the left. Until the trigger condition are fulfilled the change in parameter from the built-in function generator are ignored.

In my opinion roll mode and alternate trigger are very unimportant.

Best regards
egonotto



 
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Offline MrW0lf

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Roll mode is always rolling continously from right to left edge of the screen, anything else is not roll mode. 

Where are gaps in my video? :popcorn:

So after almost 14 hours the single trigger would stop ack.

Maybe in these ultra flexible timebases lies the asnwer why it resets stuff when changing ADC settings? It cant just keep everything running same in background like you can with more classical less flexible scope w/o fine grained control over sampling rate and memory size.

In any case now there is talk about specifics, not about existence of roll mode as such.

I have never seen any oscilloscope in roll mode doing what was shown here.

Rest assured you have not seen stuff that I have done in thread here also:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/
For example try to do software MSO on your "rollers" eg tunnel digital data thru analog channel and decode it after that.

So these scopes are unusual, yet powerful, yet with many weirdesses, flaws, bugs, and tricks to them. Important is that operator has skill to understand what is going on, for example mr egonotto had skill to notice what's going on with internal signal gen ;)

Until the trigger condition are fulfilled the change in parameter from the built-in function generator are ignored.



« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 07:09:17 pm by MrW0lf »
 
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Offline JPortici

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In my opinion roll mode and alternate trigger are very unimportant.

Best regards
egonotto


if you don't need it, obviously :)
I have a signal that is expressed as a frequency, to change it i have to measure then generate another signal that is shifted in frequency by X hertz and mantains other characteristics like duty cycle.
way of knowing this 1: trigger on one waveform, rely on on-screen measurements and trend. Drawback, i'm not looking at both for obvious deficensies
way of knowing this 2: use two scopes. Drawback, €€€ and a PITA if i want to combine the views
way of knowing this 3: scope+multimeter or 2 meters. Drawback, they can be slow. Not sure if i can display duty cycle at the same time
way of knowing this 4: alternate trigger on scope, like 1 but i can see both now, everybody wins.

Some time ago i tried the logic channel method described in the manual (My main scope at work when i'm at a PC is a pico 2000) but i found it to be unreliable
 

Offline EEVblog

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Hi everyone,
The "Elektronik"-guy is right

MODERATOR:
Audi is a sockpuppet for Elektronik
Both accounts banned.
 
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Online nctnico

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In my opinion roll mode and alternate trigger are very unimportant.

Best regards
egonotto

if you don't need it, obviously :)
Indeed. Without going into specific brands/models: I use roll mode regulary and I have put alternate triggering to good use as well.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline 2N3055

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if you don't need it, obviously :)
I have a signal that is expressed as a frequency, to change it i have to measure then generate another signal that is shifted in frequency by X hertz and mantains other characteristics like duty cycle.
way of knowing this 1: trigger on one waveform, rely on on-screen measurements and trend. Drawback, i'm not looking at both for obvious deficensies
way of knowing this 2: use two scopes. Drawback, €€€ and a PITA if i want to combine the views
way of knowing this 3: scope+multimeter or 2 meters. Drawback, they can be slow. Not sure if i can display duty cycle at the same time
way of knowing this 4: alternate trigger on scope, like 1 but i can see both now, everybody wins.

Some time ago i tried the logic channel method described in the manual (My main scope at work when i'm at a PC is a pico 2000) but i found it to be unreliable

You are right. You could do it that way and it would be useful for that..
But you could set math channels to directly compare duty cycle, and even look for differences.
You could also take a log single shot and analyze it.

Many ways to do it..
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Did think a little and can of see why Pico did what they did. Their "sort of" roll mode assumes that user would like to see certain amount of pre- or post-trigger data, just like in normal ack mode. If you set trigger in the middle of screen it will wait until data reaches trigger point and will not trigger before that (to gather pre-trigger data). If still no trigger it starts rolling data between left edge and trigger point to amuse waiting user. If trigger occurs will fill rest of the screen - user can get post-trigger data. Putting trigger on right edge is extreme case but only way to get full screen roll until trigger event (and no post data after it).
So it is sort of normal ack mode spiced with visual entertainment for waiting user.

Do I assume right that on common "rollers" scope does not care about pre- or post-trigger data and will just inspect right edge of screen (current data) and instantly stop roll if trigger event - eg one will not get post trigger data?
 

Online nctnico

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Do I assume right that on common "rollers" scope does not care about pre- or post-trigger data and will just inspect right edge of screen (current data) and instantly stop roll if trigger event - eg one will not get post trigger data?
As far as I have seen roll mode means no trigger. Roll mode only stops when the user presses the stop button.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Do I assume right that on common "rollers" scope does not care about pre- or post-trigger data and will just inspect right edge of screen (current data) and instantly stop roll if trigger event - eg one will not get post trigger data?
As far as I have seen roll mode means no trigger. Roll mode only stops when the user presses the stop button.
Exactly. Roll mode has no trigger...
It looks EXACTLY like what Picoscope does when you put trigger on repeat, pre-trigger at 100% (trigger pos all the way to the right) and  trigger level to the max, so it doesn't trigger ever.
And roll should restart if I change timebase or input att. What is use for a graph with random axes ?
 


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