PicoVNA

[Omicron]

For a while now I've been wanting to add a VNA to my lab. It seems though that in the range below about 6000 euro's there is very little choice. You either have the USB ones targeted for HAM usage like the pocketVNA or the miniVNA or you have the professional ones that are typically >10000 euro's. I considered buying a used HP but they are big and heavy. The one product I found that was in the price range I was looking for was the MegiQ which seemed very promising however it only goes down to 400MHz which I found to be a bit limiting. Then there is the new Tektronix TTR500 series USB VNAs, they look really nice but unfortunately priced well beyond my budget. Last weekend I noticed this new product from PicoTech however:

https://www.picotech.com/vector-network-analyzer/picovna-106/picovna-series?hp1

It seems to tick all the boxes with a price that I can afford (for business use). I decided to bite the bullet and order one. I got an email from PicoTech that they don't have stock yet, so this is a brand new product (hope that won't come back to bite me).

Anyway I'm excited to see a product like this from a mainstream T&M company.

[metrologist]

You might have also considered Anritsu MS46122B. I don't know where that sits performance or price-wise, however.

[loxodes]

You might have also considered Anritsu MS46122B. I don't know where that sits performance or price-wise, however.

According to Pico, the 8 GHz Anritsu MS46122B costs $17,490 and offers similar performance (from the "Industry comparison chart" at https://www.picotech.com/vector-network-analyzer/picovna-106/picovna-106-reviews). The same chart also specifies dynamic range on PicoVNA out to 8 GHz, so maybe their marketing material isn't a reliable source

[Omicron]

Yes, the Anritsu is way beyond my budget, much like the new Tektronix one.

The website and documentation for the PicoVNA seems to be somewhat in flux still.

[metrologist]

You should call Anritsu and ask for a quote, and be sure to point out this PicoVNA. Maybe they won't match that price, but you never know what could happen.

[ADT123]

Hi Omicron,

I spoke to the team most of whom are in Honolulu for the IMS show - tough job but someone has to do it...  The 8GHz in the comparison IS a typo so hopefully will be fixed by the time you read this.

I will also make sure someone updates you on the leadtime for your order.

Regards
Alan

[Omicron]

Hi Alan,

Thanks! I'm not fussed about the 8GHz typo, I understood from the website that it was a 6GHz unit before I placed my order. It seems I might actually be one of their first customers for this product. Fingers crossed I don't get bitten by early adopter issues :-)

Cheers,
Kurt

[metrologist]

Sorry Omicron. I somehow missed that your order went through. Hope you are able to come back and give a good report and some insight to this product. While all of this is still way out of my budget, I'd like to learn more about VNA and VNA technology.

I agree with your sentiment about solid T&M companies offering more budget oriented products. 

[Omicron]

No worries!

I'll try and share my experiences here once I receive my unit.

[ADT123]

Hi Kurt,

You are one of the first customers as the VNA has literally just been launched (thank you). 

Do not worry about being an early adopter however - our company culture is simple - we treat our customers like our friends.  OK we don't get it right 100% of the time but at least unlike some companies it is our genuine wish to look after customers. 

If you have any issues I will make sure you are looked after.

Regards
Alan

[D3f1ant]

This is good timing, was about to order an Anritsu but will look at this a bit closer before deciding

[Omicron]

If your budget stretches to Anritsu territory, have you looked at the new Tek one:

http://www.tek.com/vna/ttr500

I get the impression that with these new product releases the Anritsu is no longer good value. Price wise it's comparable to the higher performance Tek unit but performance wise it's comparable to the much lower priced PicoTech.

Or am I missing something?

[loxodes]

I get the impression that with these new product releases the Anritsu is no longer good value. Price wise it's comparable to the higher performance Tek unit but performance wise it's comparable to the much lower priced PicoTech.

Or am I missing something?

The Anritsu also comes in 20 GHz and 43.5 GHz, perhaps those models have more competitive pricing.

[Hugoneus]

I was just at their booth.

[Omicron]

I was just at their booth.

I do hope they gave you a review unit! :-)

[D3f1ant]

The Pico seems to be the value winner here, I can probably wait until somebody reviews it and takes it apart  How long until yours arrives Omicron? Did you order a cal kit with it?

[Omicron]

They haven't gotten back to me yet with a delivery date. I suspect it may take a while.

I did order one of the "standard" cal kits with it for starters.

[D3f1ant]

Let us know know when you find out the lead time. I'm trying to hold off making a decision and hope the lead time isn't weeks so months. I expected they would have had some stock for launch.

[Omicron]

In regards to lead time and availability I recommend you contact Alan (ADT123) privatly. He works for picotech and has been very helpful regarding my order.

[simone.pignatti]

Yesterday we were at a local customer showing the unit, we were all very impressed 

[1design]

Does the unit offer offset frequency measurements?

BR

[simone.pignatti]

from the data sheet:
Reference plane extension (offset) allows you to shift the measurement reference plane away from the point established during calibration. This is useful in removing the path length of assumed ideal interconnecting , connectors cables or microstrip lines from measurements. PicoVNA 1 software allows independent reference plane extensions
on each of the measurement parameters (S11, S22, S12 or S21), either as an automatic re-reference or by manual entry. Independent extensions allow, for example, different extensions on the two ports for S11 and S22 and then thru-line normalization for S21 and S12 transmission comparison with equivalent length thru-line.

is this what you are looking for?
Thanks

[1design]

I was not referring to reference plane extension but to frequency offset measurements of frequency converters(mixers etc.):
http://na.support.keysight.com/pna/help/latest/FreqOffset/Frequency_Offset_Mode.htm

[simone.pignatti]

let us check and come back to you asap, thanks

[D3f1ant]

Anybody got one of these yet?

[Omicron]

I received mine last week. I'm certainly not an expert on VNAs but my first impression on the device are both good and bad.

The good: the hardware seems to deliver. It worked without any issues and I was able to make reproducible measurements all the way up to the advertised 6GHz. It comes in a very nice case that also holds all the accessories. If you'll be doing a lot of 2-port measurements, consider buying 2 calibration kits as that will speed things up. I didn't buy the high end ones, the standard ones seem to do the job well enough for my purposes.

The bad: the software looks and feels like it was thrown together in a hurry by someone inexperienced (in UI design). I really expected better from a company that specialises in USB based test equipment. PicoTech offered the usual excuses: had to get things shipping, first concentrate on the algorithms, etc. It's a shame really because this could be a great product if the software received the same kind of attention as the hardware. As it is now, I would not feel comfortable recommending it to anyone. My advice would be to first try the software and see if you can live with it. Hopefully users will put enough pressure on PicoTech to replace the software with something decent.

[D3f1ant]

Thanks, that took a long time to arrive. Might download the software and have a look. Still can't decide what to buy. Might have to wait for a teardown review somewhere.

[plemli]

I have been eyeing the PicoVNA for some time as there were some projects in the pipeline where it could turn out that a VNA was needed, and that day seems to have arrived.
There isn't really anything in its price/performance range, and I'm quite hesitant to buy or rent second hand boat anchors like the HP 8753.
Also I have had nothing but good experiences with Pico improving software steadily - I have owned a PicoScope 5000 for what seems like an eternity.

@Omicron: would you care to elaborate on your experience ?

[1design]

let us check and come back to you asap, thanks

Any news?

[Omicron]

@Omicron: would you care to elaborate on your experience ?

I stand by what I said before. The hardware is good and on par with other stuff from picotech. I've had no problems getting good measurement results (disclaimer: I am not an RF expert).

The software however is NOT what you would expect from a company that specialises in USB test equipment. It is written in (of all things) Visual Basic 6, a development tool that was deprecated over a decade ago! Aside from that it looks and feels like a quick proof of concept. The pico scope software you are used to is based on .NET and is far more professional.

[borjam]

If Picotech is reading this, maybe they should contact the author of VNA/j. I know it has room for improvement (I have bombarded him with lots of suggestions myself!) but I think it's much better than the typical Visual Basic program.

As a start, it works on Windows, Mac OS X and Linux.

[dl2sba]

My inbox is open ;-)

//Dietmar

http://vnaj.dl2sba.com

[tititoto]

Hi,

I'm also looking for the good solution to buy a VNA at decent price.
About the software of the Pico, you should take a look on the LaTechnique website, they design VNA and the software looks all the same.

Sincerely,

[D3f1ant]

The software UI is very quirky, but functional. I really hope they at least add some dark themes and improve screen usage, there is a lot of empty white space.

[plemli]

PicoVNA arrived, was ordered with two cal kits (f/m) and cables.

First impressions are that the hardware and supplied cables etc are of good quality.
The software indeed is functional, but needs work to bring it up to the experience of e.g. PicoScope. The hardware deserves better.

As a starter I have measured S11 of several 1.2GHz and 5.8GHz antennae (for FPV). Amazing to see how the 1.28GHz ones I made myself a few years ago have an excellent match and are tuned spot on (using my R&S SA/TG/bridge) while the commercial ones are all over. Some are decent/good but narrowband and tuned to an arbitrary f, others are barely registering as an antenna and one helical was great with a wide bandwidth.

I'm now awaiting a custom LNA to be produced and delivered to delve into the real work, learning about full 2 port measurements, reference planes, connector deembedding etc.

[rfspezi]

Any news about improvements of the software?
I still can't decide between an old 8753 VNA and an the PicoVNA.

[Omicron]

The software is still the same. I highly doubt they will make major improvements to it considering it was written in a dead development tool.

It has a demo mode though, so you can download it and see if you can live with it. That data it produces is good and you can export it in touchstone format. Personally I think the PicoVNA is a much more practical instrument to have than an old HP box, despite the crappy software. On the other hand, if I had the budget I'd step up to the Tek TTR500. Its software is much better in my view. But then it's twice the price.

[rfspezi]

I downloaded the software and tested it in demo mode.
It's really crappy and a pain to use compared to todays UI standards.
If the price was 3000 instead of 6000 USD i would probably tolerate that.

The Tek TTR506 would be a nice alternative - but way out of my budget.
The MegiQ VNA-0460 would be interesting if there wasn't that lower frequency limitation at 400 MHz.

Is there another good alternative providing 6 GHz frequency range?

[1design]

The TEK is now being sold with Option LE, which is a lower performance version, still pretty good for hobby use at a substantially reduced price:
https://www.tek.com/vna/ttr500
TTR506A, Option LE

You might want to check it out.

[Neganur]

There's nothing regarding option LE on that website. Could you just link the price here...?

[1design]

Here you go!

[Neganur]

I like how you can download the software and use it offline to load s2p files and have a look at them.
I just don't understand why the software tries to animate the trace to give you the impression it is a live measurement...

(s-parameters of a 10.7 MHz 8-pole band pass filter with 7.5KHz pass band attached)

EDIT: the software is a bit of a PITA to navigate, the submenus have no 'back' button etc  arrgh!

[julianhigginson]

so... any users of picoVNA want to update this thread and chime in with how it's going, now it's been in the market for nearly a year?

the software review in here was a little worrying, but then again I'm an altium user, so a fair bit of funnyness is tolerable, as long as it's basically usable and will let me do my work once I learn how it behaves.

I'm more keen to buy a tool like this from a supplier with a history of keeping their products supported with the companion software (So pico are looking good to me there)  rather than someone with the flashiest most UI consistent on-trend app stylings.

Also, any thoughts on this vs the new cut down spec TEK TTR506A, Option LE mentioned in this thread earlier this year?

[RFDUK]

Another option that fits well with the budgets described at the start of this thread is Copper Mountain Technologies USB VNA products.

CMT software is available for download with a demo mode. Looks and feels pretty good. That would be a good comparison for the PICO SW.

I've seen folks on other threads pointing out that CMT specifications are not sufficiently comprehensive to compare with higher end instruments. I'm not a heavy VNA user above 1 Ghz so don't know on that one, but at the price point and with the available offerings in the market, they looked pretty good to us.

We are taking delivery of a single port R60 in a week or two for some specific tasks, I'll post about how we get on with it.

It's a relatively new and small outfit but they do provide 3 year warranties. It would be interesting to hear from any CMT VNA users.

[julianhigginson]

The copper mountain stuff looks great, but the only thing in the price range of the pico vna is the 6G reflectometer for around AU$6000.... 
For 6GHz in a 2 port VNA (S5065) the local distributor has an AU$18k price tag.

While the local distributor price is AU$8k for the pico VNA

If all I wanted to do was tuning antennas (to be fair it's most of what I want to do!) those reflectometers do look like they'd be pretty good. but without a 2nd port, it's a little too limited.

[RFDUK]

Thanks for the price comparisons Julian. The CMT 2 port products are more expensive than I had remembered compared to PICO.

The CMT TR5048 4.8 Ghz product, 2 port but 1 path, is US $7500 plus taxes.

If 1.3 Ghz max fits, then the TR1300/1 is US $2,750 plus taxes. 1.3 Ghz just too low for most folks apps at this 'professional' price point I guess.

[G0HZU]

FWIW I downloaded the Pico VNA SW and tried it today.

I agree with the other posters in that it is very basic with poor overall presentation and fairly clunky operation. I suspect that the designer of the GUI prefers the clinical appeal of the all white background but for me it looks wrong and gives it the look of a developmental platform.
At the very least I'd suggest they offer the end user a 'skin' option where they can define the colours of the traces and the chart background and the white background themselves. It's still going to look dated and clunky but maybe it won't look so harsh?

I tried importing some classic s2p files to it but gave up as it isn't very flexible in terms of the formats it can accept. It rejected all my s2p files and these were generated from various different sources. Not a big deal but a bit disappointing.

The price seems remarkably low for a full 2 port 6GHz VNA. At work, we are pushing for a small 'hackerspace' type room where people can play and we want small/neat/tidy/cheap test gear that will stay there.
The little 6GHz Pico VNA would be ideal for stuff like this if it can deliver reasonable performance for that price. We have dozens of high end VNAs at work but they take up space and are in constant demand. The Pico VNA wouldn't qualify for a lot of the stuff we do but it is probably going to be more than adequate for casual research work. I could live with the GUI especially if there was that 'skin' option available.

[Omicron]

You can actually change the colours in the UI. It's one of the first things I did as well. You find this feature in the "tools" menu where it's called "color scheme".

[julianhigginson]

Omicron, has there been anything in the way of updates or improvements on the picoVNA software since release?
despite niggles, does it actually let you do real work?
For such a relatively expensive bit of gear, it's a bit off-putting to think that the software you need to use it is being treated like an afterthought, rather than a priority. I don't mind if it behaves a bit niggly (altium style!) But do need to know this will work and be supported for a long time! from what you've said so far it's a bit worrying

I found out that the TEK TTR506A option LE isn't available outside north america. such a crappy marketing move. My local Tek guy is trying really hard to do the best he can on a normal TTR506A, and is trying to lock in a competitive price, but despite being significantly better than a picoVNA on specs, it's still significantly more expensive... And unfortunately for him, the whole situation of region limited sales is just putting me off Tek altogether. Why do I want to deal at all with a manufacturer that blatantly acts to create deliberate favoured and unfavoured sales regions in this day and age? (And it would be ironic if this becomes the reason my next scope isn't a Tek. Stepping up from my DPO2024 is my next major purchase plan, for sometime in the next financial year.)

I just wish signal hound had released a VNA instead of the monster realtime specan they released recently. I'm really happy with my BB60, and have experienced their commitment to supporting their hardware and software ongoing, So if they released a VNA I'd have no qualms at all about buying it on specs and price alone.

It's all makes me wonder if I should just save my money and keep limping along with my pocketVNA, but beef up the BB60 with a signal hound tracking generator and a directional coupler, and at least then I'd have a decent scalar network analyser to run alongside my drifty noisy VNA. Maybe even finding a good deal on a 6G boat anchor would be a better idea? at least I'm not stuck depending on windows software if I buy an old 8753.

[Omicron]

I'm not aware of any updates to the UI. They seem unlikely to me for the reasons I stated in previous posts. But you can check it out for yourself, the software can be downloaded from their website and can run in a demo mode.

If you have the budget for a Tek TTR506A then I'd recommend to also look at the new R&S ZNLE. The Signal Path Blog has a good review of it. It's roughly in the same price bracket as the TTR506A. I had one on demo for a few weeks and found the user interface to be absolutely top notch and much more intuitive than the Tek (and lightyears beyond the PicoVNA). It's also more mature in terms of features.

[D3f1ant]

It certainly a pity the software needs some work. Having said that, the hardware is great, results are completely repeatable and there is no problems with temp drift. The software is 'functional' and does get the job done. I really hope they are quietly working away on something.

[julianhigginson]

Thanks guys, I did download the Pico Vna software. I find it's mostly ok - looks neat and clean enough for me. And behaves pretty intuitively...

What I don't like is the display isn't flexible... Seems impossible to zoom in on a graph? Which makes the Smith charts pretty crappy... Also seems hard to use when using in a non full screen mode..

If s1p and s2p can be imported with a bit of formatting work, that I can make a python script to do, I'd say it's probably usable.

The issue with this kind of purchase, is it's a tool with a 10 year (at least!) lifetime... And right now, I'm not certain I can rely on the companion software for that long.

The Tek option is a big stretch, even with the discount. It seems that this and the small 2 port copper mountain and the R&S unit are all in direct competition for price and features... Pico is still significantly cheaper, for "good enough" specs.... Guess I'll see what can be done for copper mountain and r&s discounts....
:-)

[Noddy14]

I have been using VNAs for nearly 30 years and the UI is a personal thing. What pleases some annoys others. Personally, if you are going to be using the instrument frequently then what matters is that it does the job reasonably easily. For example, extracting s-parameter data from an old HP8753 can be quite very tricky requiring third party tools if you have nothing to read the floppy disk.
Anyway, I suggest anyone interested in the PicoVNA to try out the demo software and see how they get on. I know Pico plan long term support and new updates are in the pipeline.

Regarding the Tek instrument, I have never used one but one thing I wonder about is speed. If you plan to use the instrument to help you tune circuits then you need reasonable speed. I remember looking at a preliminary Tek data sheet and there it had figures equating to around 11 milliseconds per point at the highest bandwidth setting. That is really shockingly slow if correct.

[ColinC]

I just ordered a Tektronix TTR506A VNA from Fotronic Corp. in Melrose Massachusetts. It is currently on special for $6,600 discounted from$11,400. The USB VNA market is quickly becoming very competitive. The heart of this instrument is on a custom ASIC that contains 6 receivers and 2 RF sources. In addition to the ASIC chip there are a couple of directional couplers and the control logic interface circuits. Once the cost of the design of the ASIC was paid for the actual cost of production is probably not that expensive. The Pico 106 probably helped push the current price discount on the TTR506A.  I expect that other manufactures of USB based VNA's to consider reducing their prices.

No accessories. The recommended Spinner Cal kit is $900. Reasonable cal kits are available on ebay in the $100-$200 range. Search ebay for OSLN50. I purchased this unit and it looks good on my HP VNA. The carrying case is $550. I purchased a plastic carrying case from Amazon for $37.20 and did my own cutouts. Due to demand, the lead time for delivery of this unit is 6 weeks. I will provide an update after I receive it and have some time to experiment. 

[Yashu]

Seems like the "PicoVNA" was actually designed by LA Techniques
https://latechniques.net/products/

Looks like PicoTech also rebadged their amazingly rudimentary GUI. This is really a show stopper for me... even with very good hardware specs.

The unit uses FTDI USB silicon.

See timestamp 51:00 of the PicoTech sales training video below for VNA market overview:



Tek seems to be price gouging as prices go up alot every year and they nickel/dime you to death on software "features" (for the RSA600 RT SAs anyways). The TTR supposedly also has substandard port matching and needs to make up for it during cal. Also it seems slow for the price. They repackaged the SRS SG390 w/ a graphics front panel for the TSG4100 and kicked the price way too much IMHO.  So eh.... Tek is rubbing me the wrong way recently.


The MegiQ 6GHz unit does seem to only target the IoT craze, but their GUI is very nice, simple and effective. They look like a small team of engineers that are doing an offshoot product of what they needed to develop for IoT apps in their FT jobs.
http://www.codec-telecom.com/references_int.php#Tools

Looks like this team is trying to go FT with their new "startup"... so they are moving at snails pace... but their stuff does look very clean. They don't list real specs like dyn range, uncertainty, etc... so not really sure about the price tag on this type of introductory unit.

So not sure what to choose... the PicoVNA unit seems ideal, but need a real GUI like the MegiQ... still searching if anybody can provide it.. would rather not take on yet another project myself for this GUI.

[joeqsmith]

I looked at getting a Pico.  Downloaded the software and at $6k, it was less than impressive.   I also couldn't see rolling my own.   I ended up just buying another vintage boat anchor.   

Depending on your requirements, you could look at that NanoVNA V2+4.   At $130, it's certainly cheap enough.  I understand that there are a few different software packages that support it.     I wouldn't recommend the V2+ as I have had problems with mine right out of the box.  It locks up from time to time and requires a power cycle to clear the fault.