Pocket Multimeter Shootout

[Muttley Snickers]

He has been talking about doing this pocket multimeter shootout for around three years that I know of so I seriously doubt that it is just a ploy to flog stuff.

[dos]

Honestly I like the idea of getting what by any measure looks like a cool exclusive product and I'm glad it's going to be sold free of EEVBlog branding (nothing personal, just don't like "custom" stuff, from anybody). However using what's supposed to be an objective review video as a vehicle for announcing it does put me off a bit. Ideally I would like to see the shootout without it and then a separate video all about the Sanwa. It's probably not even in the same price/quality bracket as all those ultra budget pocket meters anyway. This is probably not going to happen.

If I'm going to be 100% honest I feel like a lot of people on youtube (by no means just you, and by no means are you anywhere near the worst) are really starting to blur the line between what's "real" and what's product placement in the past year or so. I feel like there's some "agreement" between EEVBlog and Keysight for example, but since there's no disclosure I can't really confirm it and feel like I might just need to pull out a tinfoil hat or something. Like a brand new low end Keysight scope gets released, it's sitting in your lab, gets like 4 or 5 videos devoted to it, and there's no real hard hitting talk about how the thing actually stacks up compared to other budget models or what it's like to use? The EEVBlog I remember would have been all over that, with an in depth test of every performance metric and a value for money comparison with other choices. If I'm completely wrong, sorry for misinterpreting things. I genuinely wanted to see how that scope measured up because I'm in the market for a new one around that price, so I kinda picked up on how nobody with a well known channel is actually reviewing the thing, just kind of advertising it's existence.

The thing is, you gotta eat and most of us understand that. Just try to understand how it looks from this end, and that people actually appreciate it when something is clearly stated as product placement. We get it, any channel of a certain production value needs sponsorship. The eyeballs are still looking at it. When stuff starts to feel too much like a trick, like you have to spend too much mental energy trying to read between the lines to enjoy it, the eyeballs go looking for something more real, and this being the internet there is always something more real. The whole reason for the success of youtube and the slow death of TV is that on the former you can actually find content that's not slick advertising designed to funnel money from your pockets into the pockets of people with more money than you. Don't become TV.

E: Also, because this seems rant-y I want to mention that I really do appreciate what you and others like you do and absolutely think you should get paid the big bucks to do it. I just wish there was some way that didn't involve blurring the line between the content I genuinely love and an advertisement, but sadly that's probably where the biggest bucks are

[ebastler]

@dos: Thank you for taking the time and wording your concerns carefully. My thoughts exactly, but you did a better job explaining them than I did two posts above! -- I like your proposal to exclude the Sanwa from the shootout review, and do a separate video on it a bit later.

[EEVblog]

He has been talking about doing this pocket multimeter shootout for around three years that I know of so I seriously doubt that it is just a ploy to flog stuff.

Yes, go check the various threads on this forum including lists of meters and probably a photo or two of the meters I've had for a long time now. And I got serious about this again recently before even finding this PM300 meter. All verifiable on twitter & this forum.

[EEVblog]

I've just ordered stock of the Sanwa PM300 and will be selling it.
Not because it's the best pocket meter (that's a "depends" thing), but because I really like it, it's premium quality, and not available practically anywhere else. Exactly the type of product I'm looking to resell.
Sanwa branded to start with, but the internal white border around the screen with the Sanwa name can just be removed if you open it up, so might get some custom window frame made to go with it.

Rad, can you mention a (rough) price yet?

Not cheap, probably US$75

[Rbastler]

I still would like to see the meter in the shootout, but more for a comparison, like the Fluke 87V was used in the other dmm shootouts.
Id be fine fine also with including it in the shootout competition, as long its clearly stated that there are/could be a conflict of interest. Not mentioning that would be really misleading.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[dos]

I still would like to see the meter in the shootout, but more for a comparison, like the Fluke 87V was used in the other dmm shootouts.

That sounds like a good compromise to me as well. Making a $75 pocket meter the winner does nothing to help people who couldn't afford to spend that on a bench meter, which is probably most of the people genuinely interested in an in depth comparison of very cheap meters. As a standard against which the ones affordable to the common man are held though, it both removes the conflict and makes the Sanwa look in a class of it's own- good for everyone.

[EEVblog]

Honestly I like the idea of getting what by any measure looks like a cool exclusive product and I'm glad it's going to be sold free of EEVBlog branding (nothing personal, just don't like "custom" stuff, from anybody). However using what's supposed to be an objective review video as a vehicle for announcing it does put me off a bit. Ideally I would like to see the shootout without it and then a separate video all about the Sanwa. It's probably not even in the same price/quality bracket as all those ultra budget pocket meters anyway. This is probably not going to happen.

There are several other meters in the shootout (including another Sanwa) that are US$50+, so not far from the Sanwa PM300, but it is the most expensive. Several are under $10 delivered

If I'm going to be 100% honest I feel like a lot of people on youtube (by no means just you, and by no means are you anywhere near the worst) are really starting to blur the line between what's "real" and what's product placement in the past year or so.

I do zero product placement.
If it appears like I am, then, well, nothing I can do about that except tell you that you are wrong and try to explain it.

I feel like there's some "agreement" between EEVBlog and Keysight for example, but since there's no disclosure I can't really confirm it and feel like I might just need to pull out a tinfoil hat or something.

There is zero agreement between Keysight and myself, or any other company for that matter.
They are probably not all that happy that I haven't gotten around to doing a review of it, and that I did a hacking video of it.
Do you seriously think a huge company like Keysight wants me doing a hacking video? Would that have been part of the "agreement" too? No frigg'n way.
Where was the agreement when I did videos exposing their meter for having soldering quality issues, firmware issues, and EMC issues have have forced recalls and redesigns? Half of their company probably hates me for exposing that stuff. And that's what I do to companies that give me stuff for free.
I don't do agreements, never have, never will, it's my way or the highway, I'm not afraid to burn bridges.
The only agreement I have ever signed are NDA's for various product launches.

Like a brand new low end Keysight scope gets released, it's sitting in your lab, gets like 4 or 5 videos devoted to it, and there's no real hard hitting talk about how the thing actually stacks up compared to other budget models or what it's like to use?

Err, surely any "agreement" would have included me doing review videos, yeah?

The EEVBlog I remember would have been all over that, with an in depth test of every performance metric and a value for money comparison with other choices.

You haven't seen such a shotout video because it's a metric shit ton of work. There is probably no greater time consuming video possible than an oscilloscope review shootout.
I work on enthusiasm, and it's really hard to build up the enthusiasm to do such videos.

If I'm completely wrong, sorry for misinterpreting things.

Yes, you are completely wrong, and demonstrably so.

I genuinely wanted to see how that scope measured up because I'm in the market for a new one around that price, so I kinda picked up on how nobody with a well known channel is actually reviewing the thing, just kind of advertising it's existence.

Guess why!
Hint, you only have to scroll back up.

The thing is, you gotta eat and most of us understand that. Just try to understand how it looks from this end, and that people actually appreciate it when something is clearly stated as product placement.

I'll repeat, I do zero product placement.

We get it, any channel of a certain production value needs sponsorship.

I don't do sponsorship either.
I have been offered many thousands of dollars per video for reviews of all kinds of thing and other sponsored content. Heck, even $5k for simply for a simple embedded pre-roll ad an link at the start of a video. And I have turned down every single one of these offers. I've told companies to literally piss off when they have asked to see video before I release them, or try and dictate terms to me, and some of them have not returned, and I couldn't give a rats arse about that. I have built up reputation among manufacturers as hard arse who doesn't play ball, a lot of them hate me.
These terms are detailed publicly on my website BTW.

The eyeballs are still looking at it. When stuff starts to feel too much like a trick, like you have to spend too much mental energy trying to read between the lines to enjoy it, the eyeballs go looking for something more real, and this being the internet there is always something more real. The whole reason for the success of youtube and the slow death of TV is that on the former you can actually find content that's not slick advertising designed to funnel money from your pockets into the pockets of people with more money than you. Don't become TV.

I couldn't if I tried, I'm just to frigg'n lazy and too poor at marketing.
Problem is I will by coincidence have a lot of stuff coming up that might appear like this.
I want to do a teardown of my HVP70 I'm selling (already sold most of my first shipment without mentioning it in a video once).
I have to crowd fund my new uRuler like I've been promising for years.
I've got my uSleeve ESD part storage pouches I've had sitting inboxes for over a year because I've been too lazy to do the simple crowd funder for it.
I've got the big 121GW crowd funder in a month or two.
And this new Sanwa PM300 will have to slip in there too.

And I won't lie, a good lot of my income now comes from product sales, but I hardly push any of it, probably greatly to my detriment.
This is necessary for my survival if the ad revenue dries up. The alternative would be for me to take those multi-thousand dollar video sponsorship deals if it came to that.
I could plug the shit out of my store and products in every video, and in every video description, but I don't. I have an opt-in email list for product specials etc, and very occasionally post on the forum.

E: Also, because this seems rant-y I want to mention that I really do appreciate what you and others like you do and absolutely think you should get paid the big bucks to do it. I just wish there was some way that didn't involve blurring the line between the content I genuinely love and an advertisement, but sadly that's probably where the biggest bucks are

I get paid pretty much exactly the same regardless of what videos I do. It's not like using my BM235 meter in a video results in a sudden spike in sales, I couldn't even see that blip in the sales data if I tried.
Guess how many people bought my HVP70 probe when I mentioned it and the discount code in my recent video (first time I've even done that BTW) - two.

And I'll add that having the products is also a way for me to pay the wages of David2 who is now a full time employee at the EEVblog, being paid real engineering wages (I had to outbid another company to get him). A good lot of his job is to design products so that we can eventually sell them to pay for his wages which also effectively (and hopefully) gets me a a full time employee to help out on various video and other things, not to mention producing spin-off videos of these eventual designs, along with him doing some of his own tutorial videos.
In short I'm trying to boot-strap a real business here, one that can generate enough cash flow so that it continues to produce content, while at the same time growing the human resources available to keep it all going and expand where possible.
The EEVblog is now two commercial offices, two full time employees, and a part time logisitics person.

[EEVblog]

I still would like to see the meter in the shootout, but more for a comparison, like the Fluke 87V was used in the other dmm shootouts.

That sounds like a good compromise to me as well. Making a $75 pocket meter the winner does nothing to help people who couldn't afford to spend that on a bench meter, which is probably most of the people genuinely interested in an in depth comparison of very cheap meters. As a standard against which the ones affordable to the common man are held though, it both removes the conflict and makes the Sanwa look in a class of it's own- good for everyone.

Good idea, but if it's in the shootout then it's gotta be in the shootout. Some of the other meters are the same price as the PM300 depending upon where you buy it.
Having had an initial play with these meters, I think it will be impossible to have one winner.
I'm not even a fan of the PM300's form factor for a pocket meter, it's too thick for a good shirt pocket meter IMO, I much prefer the thin soft wallet type having carried one of those for years in a production environment.

[dos]

There are several other meters in the shootout (including another Sanwa) that are US$50+, so not far from the Sanwa PM300, but it is the most expensive. Several are under $10 delivered

I didn't know this, and now it seems much more reasonable to have it in the shootout.

There is zero agreement between Keysight and myself, or any other company for that matter.
They are probably not all that happy that I haven't gotten around to doing a review of it, and that I did a hacking video of it.
Do you seriously think a huge company like Keysight wants me doing a hacking video? Would that have been part of the "agreement" too? No frigg'n way.

For what it's worth I believe you. But devil's advocate from here on out: Hackability has sold a shitload of low end hobbyist scopes. Keysight is trying to break into the low end hobbyist scope market: "ditch the toys". They have studied Rigol carefully. I think they would rather see some hype generating hacking than an honest review, since an honest review would have to mention the fact that you get more (bandwidth, memory depth, update rate, decoding, features, etc) for the same price or less with the so called toys (apart from a better level of quality design and construction, which was nicely demonstrated in the teardown. And yes this is very important and one of the reasons I'm considering the Keysight). You can see how this looks from here?

Where was the agreement when I did videos exposing their meter for having soldering quality issues, firmware issues, and EMC issues have have forced recalls and redesigns? Half of their company probably hates me for exposing that stuff. And that's what I do to companies that give me stuff for free.
I don't do agreements, never have, never will, it's my way or the highway, I'm not afraid to burn bridges.
The only agreement I have ever signed are NDA's for various product launches.

That's really good and I am glad there are people with your sense of ethics making content at your level.

Err, surely any "agreement" would have included me doing review videos, yeah?

Again, from looking at the way things were with lots of different big channels it seemed to me like they didn't want people to really review on purpose, because the scope would not come out looking so great against the "toys". In my mind "agreement" meant more like "make people aware of it, but don't say anything bad or get too nitty-gritty about it's performance. our marketing campaign is aggressively taunting our competitors but our product looks a bit limp against them once you compare the raw data and prices."

You haven't seen such a shotout video because it's a metric shit ton of work. There is probably no greater time consuming video possible than an oscilloscope review shootout.
I work on enthusiasm, and it's really hard to build up the enthusiasm to do such videos.

I didn't mean a full on shootout where you pull every scope on the bench, just a standard review of that scope's functionality in particular with verbal mention of how it compares to to other scopes in it's range bang for buck, like you and others have done hundreds of times with hundreds of far less significant scopes. Again I believe you but you can see how it looks when suddenly it's super hard to do one of the things your channel is most famous for, serious critical analysis of affordable test equipment. You can be merciless, and it's part of why I like your channel a lot. I suspect there may be a few really obvious things to be merciless about this scope with so it struck me as odd that not a single even vaguely impolite thing was said about it across like 4 videos. is it really that great?

I genuinely wanted to see how that scope measured up because I'm in the market for a new one around that price, so I kinda picked up on how nobody with a well known channel is actually reviewing the thing, just kind of advertising it's existence.

Guess why!
Hint, you only have to scroll back up.

But most of these people have done plenty of in depth reviews of simple budget beginner scopes. I just thought that with such a big name coming in and literally giving them away people would be racing each other to get the full in depth review out, because it's kind of a unique thing. It's not just another InsRiSigWonTek. In fact it's marketing directly calls those guys out, great drama: "They talk a big game but can goliath really outperform david??" shit it's like must see nerd youtube.

I'm just explaining my thinking here and showing you that I did consider these things, not trying to refute what you're saying. Think of it as just the paranoid perspective I guess.

[ebastler]

He has been talking about doing this pocket multimeter shootout for around three years that I know of so I seriously doubt that it is just a ploy to flog stuff.

Yes, go check the various threads on this forum including lists of meters and probably a photo or two of the meters I've had for a long time now. And I got serious about this again recently before even finding this PM300 meter. All verifiable on twitter & this forum.

All good; I do not claim that you have cunningly planned it this way. But the coinciding timing is what it is now, and it does send an awkward message.

[EEVblog]

For what it's worth I believe you. But devil's advocate from here on out: Hackability has sold a shitload of low end hobbyist scopes. Keysight is trying to break into the low end hobbyist scope market: "ditch the toys". They have studied Rigol carefully. I think they would rather see some hype generating hacking than an honest review, since an honest review would have to mention the fact that you get more (bandwidth, memory depth, update rate, decoding, features, etc) for the same price or less with the so called toys (apart from a better level of quality design and construction, which was nicely demonstrated in the teardown. And yes this is very important and one of the reasons I'm considering the Keysight). You can see how this looks from here?

I can't stop the conspiracy theories.
BTW, I said these negative things about the Keysight scope countless times on here if you cared to look. Hardly keeping to any "agreement" to not mention them. Once again, all verifiable and on the record if you cared to go check.

Err, surely any "agreement" would have included me doing review videos, yeah?

Again, from looking at the way things were with lots of different big channels it seemed to me like they didn't want people to really review on purpose, because the scope would not come out looking so great against the "toys". In my mind "agreement" meant more like "make people aware of it, but don't say anything bad or get too nitty-gritty about it's performance. our marketing campaign is aggressively taunting our competitors but our product looks a bit limp against them once you compare the raw data and prices."

Now you're just jumping the shark.
I can assure you, neither me, (and I'm pretty darn sure I can speak for others) has any sort of agreement with the manufactures to do anything. The "deal" is they give us the scope and they hope for the best.

I didn't mean a full on shootout where you pull every scope on the bench, just a standard review of that scope's functionality in particular with verbal mention of how it compares to to other scopes in it's range bang for buck, like you and others have done hundreds of times with hundreds of far less significant scopes. Again I believe you but you can see how it looks when suddenly it's super hard to do one of the things your channel is most famous for, serious critical analysis of affordable test equipment. You can be merciless, and it's part of why I like your channel a lot. I suspect there may be a few really obvious things to be merciless about this scope with so it struck me as odd that not a single even vaguely impolite thing was said about it across like 4 videos. is it really that great?

Because there weren't reviews 

BTW, I did a video showing some bugs:





BTW, just reviews on their own are also a shit ton of work, which is why, if you actually paid attention, I have a whole bunch of scopes I have down teardowns on and not reviews (probably 4-5 of them). I haven't done a full scope review for a long time.
Do I have "agreements" with all these companies not to review scopes? Seriously, think about it.
I usually do teardown first because they are fairly simple and fun, as was the hacking video etc. I do what interests me.
Yes I'd like to do reviews too, but if you'd actually have done one yourself before then you'll know how much work it is. It's hard to  get the enthusiasm to start such a video when you know how much work is involved.
The other bloggers say the same thing.

But most of these people have done plenty of in depth reviews of simple budget beginner scopes. I just thought that with such a big name coming in and literally giving them away people would be racing each other to get the full in depth review out, because it's kind of a unique thing. It's not just another InsRiSigWonTek. In fact it's marketing directly calls those guys out, great drama: "They talk a big game but can goliath really outperform david??" shit it's like must see nerd youtube.

Funny how the world doesn't work the way you want it too huh?
I'm assuming you have a scope, please go an do a review for us (video or text, both bothered) and let us know how much work it is.

I'm just explaining my thinking here and showing you that I did consider these things, not trying to refute what you're saying. Think of it as just the paranoid perspective I guess.

And with that, I'm done. I've tried to explain to why and that's all I can do.

[EEVblog]

All good; I do not claim that you have cunningly planned it this way. But the coinciding timing is what it is now, and it does send an awkward message.

Perhaps, but what can I do about it?
I'm always looking for premium products to resell that aren't available easily elsewhere, and they are quite rare.
What do you want me to do? Do a separate review video of the PM300 first and then only include it in the shootout at all?

[Electro Detective]

FYI people: the hard working learned host here isn't holding 5kv insulation test probes to your head to buy anything. 

Whilst I understand and casually observe the trend   (all over Youtube BTW)   as the shared concerns above,
at the end of the day be it coincidence or not, unaware partial product placement, or whatever you want to label it,
your pocket does what YOU instruct it to, not what one Youtuber/Blogger 'appears' to sway you over to. 

I bought some items that EEV tube negatively bashed a bit, but they were not the only 'reviews' I checked out beforehand to influence MY decision to buy a particular product that suited my application.

Perhaps the host tries to do TOO MUCH to keep everyone happy, and EAT, so please consider before typing up  'hmmm...shifty business going on..?' incinuations too hastily,
and put yourself in his place for a week

Besides, what's the problem if someone occasionally sponsors some good gear anyway at a fair price, and tells you straight up he gets a cut,
especially after giving it a good thrashing and trashing   

...AND supplies a FREE forum out of his pocket for support questions        and bitching..   

[ebastler]

Perhaps the host tries to do TOO MUCH to keep everyone happy, and EAT, so please consider before typing up  'hmmm...shifty business going on..?' incinuations too hastily, and put yourself in his place for a week

I have no problem whatsoever with Dave selling selected test equipment. I just think it is an unfortunate decision to launch his  new offering in the context of a big "multimeter shootout" review/event.

The "all opinion", no-holds-barred approach is the hallmark of Dave's videos. But how can he thrash other meters when, in the very same review, he happens to present a premium meter, which he happens to sell? Even if his assessments are completely unaffected by his commercial interests -- which I am confident they will be -- this would leave a bad aftertaste.

If you feel that it is uncalled for to criticize Dave, may I remind you that Dave did ask for opinions on the Sanwa launch, earlier in this thread. And opinions he is getting -- certainly personal ones, certainly varied, probably somewhat representative of the spectrum of reactions among the viewers of the upcoming multimeter shootout.

What do you want me to do? Do a separate review video of the PM300 first and then only include it in the shootout at all?

Personally I would prefer to keep the Sanwa meter out of the multimeter shootout entirely, and do a separate video on it. I think the Sanwa is in a somewhat high price class than the other meters, if you look at average market prices, so there is another reason besides the conflict of interest to keep it out.

It would be even better to put a few weeks between the two videos -- either one could go first, in my opinion.

[Muttley Snickers]

If he was going to be unscrupulous about it then he could easily have done the review with all the meters at hand and then stated during the video that the Sanwa was the best out of the lot, then in few weeks declare that he was so impressed with the quality of the meter that he is now offering them up for sale, he didn't do this and instead laid his cards on the table in advance and declared his interest, personally I wouldn't buy one anyway regardless of the pitch because if anything the CD-800 series better suites my usage should I require a glove box style meter.

Sanwa Co.
http://overseas.sanwa-meter.co.jp/

[bitseeker]

That is a nice case on the CD-800.

[Muttley Snickers]

They have backlight and current as well but are much larger than a standard pocket or wallet meter, I think the hard cover on these may also double as a bail stand similar to the CD-800A pictured below, this particular model appears to be PC compatible according to the video below, perhaps the other models also share this ability.   

Sanwa CD-800A Software

[kalel]

I don't have an issue with product placement that is marked as such.

The only issue would be if most of the videos are that way. Then I couldn't just avoid (or not take seriously).

Also I don't see a problem with knowing why Dave chose to offer a specific meter over others in the first place. Maybe it's just the ability to make a contract with that specific company for that specific product, but maybe there's something more.

[bitseeker]

They have backlight and current as well but are much larger than a standard pocket or wallet meter, I think the hard cover on these may also double as a bail stand similar to the CD-800A pictured below, this particular model appears to be PC compatible according to the video below, perhaps the other models also share this ability.   

Thanks Muttley. Good to see the vid in order to get a sense for the relative size. Very helpful.

[Rbastler]

If he was going to be unscrupulous about it then he could easily have done the review with all the meters at hand and then stated during the video that the Sanwa was the best out of the lot, then in few weeks declare that he was so impressed with the quality of the meter that he is now offering them up for sale, he didn't do this and instead laid his cards on the table in advance and declared his interest.
Sanwa Co.
http://overseas.sanwa-meter.co.jp/

Nobody then would complain. I too at first had some objections towards including the DMM, but after reconsidering some some arguments, I dont see any problem.
Since obviousley its imlossible to make everybody happy, I think its best to just include the Sanwa meter, like Dave was going to anyway and mentioning that he is going to sell it. Those who dont like that, shoudnt watch it. And if they hate it so much, they may also dislike the video

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[Muttley Snickers]

Thanks Muttley. Good to see the vid in order to get a sense for the relative size. Very helpful.

After a bit more research and a read of all the manuals it turns out that the CD-800 series are huge, like scary big as can be seen in the video below, they could probably do with a pull out handle and a couple of wheels for travel purposes or people on the go.   

Sanwa Digital Multimeter Unboxing CD-800A

[bitseeker]

Yeah, from the previous video it looked about as wide as a U1282A and about 2/3 the length.

[dos]

Funny how the world doesn't work the way you want it too huh?
I'm assuming you have a scope, please go an do a review for us (video or text, both bothered) and let us know how much work it is.

I would find playing basketball like Michael Jordan hard too, it's not what I've made a name and fortune for myself doing. It would still suck to hear from Michael Jordan himself that it's too hard to play ball and he doesn't wanna, that he'll get paid the same if he sells some shoes with his name on em so why bother?

Yes, I don't like the way the world works. You can ban me if this is offensive, it's how I feel and I don't censor myself. It will be my last word on the subject either way.

[MacMeter]

That basketball looks HUGE, compared to the other pocket contenders!