Author Topic: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon  (Read 1322369 times)

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Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2050 on: September 30, 2013, 10:32:14 pm »
I posted a possible schematic of the battery protection circuit here.
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2051 on: October 03, 2013, 06:19:29 am »
Some tests results for my old PSU obtained on the test fixture.

After looking at different alternatives for testing the PSU noise I opted for the setup shown on #1. The case of the power sw has the highest GND noise levels I could find and they are pretty consistent, so it's easy to determine if a modification has a beneficial effect. The CH2 probe's tip is isolated and is used to pick up the electric field at various locations. This signal is also used to trigger the scope while viewing the noise on CH1. As done before by other members, this allows pinpointing the source of specific noise bursts.

The worst noise makers are the -7.6 inductor (L2) and the anode connection to D5 (Q1's snubber). Of the two, L2 is the worst by far. The tests on this post are for the original L2 as well as several replacements that I tried. See #3a-3c for the tests for the original L2. Note that the original L2 measured 130µH.

I started my search for suitable replacements by looking at the OnSemi datasheet for the MC34063A. The attachment shows the inductor data on this datasheet. Notice that although the image shows an inductor similar to the one used by Owon, the note below the data table specifies a toroid. The next attachment shows the page on the Magnetics catalog with the data for the 55117 toroidal core.

I don't currently have one of these cores, but I had several toroids salvaged from PC PSUs that I decided to try, see #2. The medium sized toroid is very close to the size of the 55117 so I wound it with 28 turns of 22 AWG. As it turns out the permeability of this core must be very high because the inductance came to 3.2mH. I tried it anyway but the MC started to get very hot so I turned everything off, so no captures for this test.

I next tried the small toroid, even though the wire gauge is way smaller than 22. This coil worked surprisingly good, see #3a & #3b. The noise level dropped way down, the lowest level of all the tests I performed. The only negative was that the MC operates hotter than with the original coil. Original 49C, small toroid 57C. Also the coil gets a little hotter (60C). However, I left it operating for hours with no ill results. This small coil has 27 turns (34µH).

I also tried a large toroid installed as L2 on #2. It was 74 turns originally (254µH), and I shortened it to 40 turns (65µH), see #5a-5c. I also tried it at 27 turns (34µH) and 23 turns (28µH), see #6a-6d and #7a-7d. At 23 turns the noise results are almost as good as the small toroid, in addition, the MC operates at 51C and the coil at 46C, which is a lot cooler.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 06:22:45 am by TomC »
 

Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2052 on: October 03, 2013, 01:25:01 pm »
That's are interesting results!

TomC, if I remember well the output of 8.4V used like input voltage to the MC34063. Then the IC3 works like an Voltage Inverting Converter.
From the datasheet, as well you said, this function needs 88uH (28 Turns of #22 AWG on Magnetic Inc 55117 Core), but Owon uses other value (because the core is differente).
Your result between 28-34uH are fine, but I think that we couldn't to extract a usefull result for what value needs there! It depends of Inductor core, isn't it?

I find this evaluation board (Inverting function), At the BOM list the appropriate inductor is a  SMD Coilcraft Power Inductor 100 ?H, 1.2 A, DO3316P-104_L
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 01:32:26 pm by lemon »
 

Offline akis

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2053 on: October 03, 2013, 01:30:31 pm »
Out of curiosity, how many voltages are provided by the PSU+adapter card, and has anyone thought, as an experiment, instead of trying to "improve" the switching mode supplies, to replace them with linear supplies, eg provided by the bench PSU and see what the traces look like? If the linear voltages produce good results, then we could try to design them on a PCB in the space of the existing casing.
 

Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2054 on: October 03, 2013, 01:54:06 pm »
I think these are -7.6V, 5.5V, 3.3V. and a variable range for the LCD Backlight output.

Personaly, I have tried to supply the adapter board by a low noise PSU (Rigol DP832) but the output gnd_noise of scope was the same like Owon PSU (but mine psu was adapted and maybe it has a less noise than TomC PSU).

A russian member (BBAAHHOO) had done a lot of adaptation on psu+adapter with independent voltages and the total gnd_noise was very-very low (almost 12-15mV 10X set).

TomC, me, Carrington, AdrejaKo like to play with these circuit to improve for diy purposes.

Probably our talk about how to improve the noise for older psu and adapter versions, confuse other readers and they think that Owon SDS7102 has a ground noise problem.

It hasn't and I don't know if there is a significant reason to replace someone this latest version of Owon PSU+adapter, because the total gnd_noise is low (25-35mV, 10X set, full BW).
 

Offline akis

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2055 on: October 03, 2013, 02:08:02 pm »
Do you mean that those members used linear supplies to replace the SMPS ?
 

Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2056 on: October 03, 2013, 02:47:24 pm »
Linear PSU had used the rf-loop but we haven't uploading results. He said that the results was fine.
BBAAHHOO, had strong adapted the psu+adapter with other add-on circuit and he gave to mainboard independend voltages (see his messages from page https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/1455/ and then).
Me had used linear PSU and supply the already mod my adapter, but as I said I have no any improvement, I don't try to remove and adapter board and give direct the appropriate voltages to mainboard (my scope was to examine a good linear psu vs Owon adapted PSU).
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2057 on: October 03, 2013, 04:13:03 pm »
then we could try to design them on a PCB in the space of the existing casing.
I think that's the catch. I don't know of a way that you could do linear without a power transformer, unless you are willing to accept enormous power losses. The other impediment, as I see it, is to make it a universal supply covering 100-250VAC mains. You would need to make at least the 8.4V part of the PSU conform to this. I think the size of the power transformer alone is the reason these supplies are SMPS nowadays.
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2058 on: October 03, 2013, 04:54:56 pm »
Your result between 28-34uH are fine, but I think that we couldn't to extract a usefull result for what value needs there! It depends of Inductor core, isn't it?

I find this evaluation board (Inverting function), At the BOM list the appropriate inductor is a  SMD Coilcraft Power Inductor 100 ?H, 1.2 A, DO3316P-104_L
That's right, the permeability and size of the core has a big influence. Unfortunately, with salvaged cores you may not be able to determine what the permeability is ahead of time, unless there is some numbering that you can find on the web. The cores that gave me good results were colored yellow, that may have some meaning as far as specs for the manufacturer.

The medium size core that turned out to have very high permeability had some numberings on it that didn't match anything on the web. I tried to reduce the inductance to around 100µH on this core but ended up with less than 5 turns. I tried it and the results were bad, so I gave up on it. Probably this type of core is useful on circuits where DC bias is an issue, but not for DC/DC converter coils.

With the yellow cores the GND noise on other areas, for example, the Z-plate substitute is very low, below 20mVpp. On the Power Sw cover the noise is much stronger, which makes it useful for testing. With a toroid for the -7.6V the dominant noise left is produced by the 8.V supply. It's just a little bit higher than what is left from the -7.6V with a toroid.

The Coilcraft SMD inductor doesn't seem to be a toroid, I don't know if the different design would help, but for now I'm thinking toroids are the better solution.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 04:56:56 pm by TomC »
 

Offline Yago

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2059 on: October 03, 2013, 07:41:00 pm »
TomC, me, Carrington, AdrejaKo like to play with these circuit to improve for diy purposes.

Probably our talk about how to improve the noise for older psu and adapter versions, confuse other readers and they think that Owon SDS7102 has a ground noise problem.

It hasn't and I don't know if there is a significant reason to replace someone this latest version of Owon PSU+adapter, because the total gnd_noise is low (25-35mV, 10X set, full BW).

Sorry to burst into this thread half arsed and off topic a little ....
So there is no noise problem on the newer models , and thus this negative is gone from the scope ?
I am left with pondering the reports of the scope being slow (WFm/s) , but not really fully understanding the implications of this , can anyone shed some light on this "slowness" ? (PM is fine if rather not OT the thread further)

Sorry again for my interruptions , it's the ubiquitous "looking for a new scope and out of the loop for some years" , that I am sure you guys are sick of :(

Gotta add this forum is great , wish I had found it ages ago , thanks to all of you guys for reigniting my interest in the art of not-releasing-magic-smoke :D
 

Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2060 on: October 03, 2013, 08:56:10 pm »
Well newer units can reach triggering frequency of about 35 Hz, depending on scope settings, while old units go about 25 Hz. Do note that the scope is optimized for large memory sizes, so unlike most scopes, decreasing amount of used memory will not drastically increase speed.

How fast is that depends on what you want to use scope for. The story is actually extremely complicated, but I'll try to simplify it as much as I can.

A traditional oscilloscope works by connecting the voltage of input to Y axis on the CRT. The X axis is driven by timebase. It takes some time for the scope to draw waveform from right side of the screen to the left side and that's what you control with timebase knob. There's also some time which is needed for the beam to return back to the left side of the screen and during that time, you don't see the wave. This is called deadtime, if I remember correctly. On analog oscilloscopes, it's usually very short, so it isn't much of a problem.

On a traditional digital scope, instead of electron beam, we have an analog to digital converter. It takes some time for it to capture data and that time can be (more or less) thought of as the time during which an analog scope is drawing the wave on the screen. Once the ADC fills the memory, it stops capturing data and then the data is processed by the scope. Once the processing is finished, it's displayed on the screen. That time period can be thought of as the time which it takes for the analog scope to move the beam from the right side of the screen to the left.

The main difference is that the time it takes for DSO to "re-arm" is much longer than on a CRO. Let's calculate how much time new SDS7102 would cover. I mentioned that it has around 35 waveform updates per second. I'm using 10 Msample memory and timebase of 500 microseconds. I think that this will give me greatest time coverage at highest sample rate. When I press single-shot button, I see that the scope has 10 ms worth of data in memory. So if it updates 35 times per second, and each update gets 10 ms, we have coverage of 350 ms for each second. That means that in each second, there are 650 ms during which the scope is effectively blind.

The result is that should the effect you're looking for happen in the part of the second which is in those 650 ms, you won't see it on your scope at all.  It may take quite some time to actually catch the abnormality you may be looking for, if it lasts for a short amount of time.

What you can do to mitigate the issue is first to try to set triggering on the scope in such way that the scope triggers on the abnormality and not on something else. It may, however, be very difficult to set the trigger in such way that you catch the glitch, especially if you don't know if the glitch exists in the first place and how it looks like. Even if you know that the glitch is there, depending on the glitch, it may take hours or maybe even days until the scope discovers it.

Second option might be useful if you're looking for slow changes on the signal. You could lower the sample rate so that there is more time between each individual sample. This way, you're changing the coverage of the time. Instead of having short groups of tightly packed samples, you now have longer groups of samples, but there's some extra time between each individual sample. For example, using sample rate of 2.5 Msamples per second and 10 Msamples memory, I managed to capture two seconds worth of data on my scope. When I "zoom in", that is to say increase the time-base of the scope when looking at captured data, scope stops providing interpolated signal at time base of 200 ns and then I can see that there are exactly 200 ns between each sample. If the glitch happened somewhere in that period of time, you won't see it.


The above is the reason why we today have scopes that cost a much as a new truck or tractor. High performance scopes have many more updates per second and they have advanced display modes that work by doing statistical analysis of the data and then provide results on screen, since it's more or less impossible to actually update the screen as quickly as the scope captures data. They still have some dead time, which is basically inherent in digital scopes, but the effect is greatly reduced.


This all leaves us with the question of what you want to use the scope for. If you need to catch some elusive, short glitches, then this is not a scope for you. If you don't, then I don't know what to say to you except that you'll need to help us help you.

I myself didn't have any problems with dead time of this scope so far, but on the other hand, I wasn't catching any strange glitches. My main uses of the scope are to debug digital logic. The FFT feature proved itself very useful for tuning radio scales as well.
 

Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2061 on: October 03, 2013, 09:01:53 pm »
Linear PSU had used the rf-loop but we haven't uploading results. He said that the results was fine.
BBAAHHOO, had strong adapted the psu+adapter with other add-on circuit and he gave to mainboard independend voltages (see his messages from page https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/1455/ and then).
Me had used linear PSU and supply the already mod my adapter, but as I said I have no any improvement, I don't try to remove and adapter board and give direct the appropriate voltages to mainboard (my scope was to examine a good linear psu vs Owon adapted PSU).
I did try to power up the scope using a linear PSU, but it seems I was having some regulation problems with the PSU. I set it to 8.4 V, connected it instead of battery, but once I powered up the scope, voltage dropped down to around 5 V and scope kept pulling about 1 A. I was unable to increase the voltage because for some reason the operation voltage potentiometer of my 2.3 A home made PSU produced  no results. It's the first time something like this happened. The scope keeps drawing power, but seems to be doing nothing in that mode. It could be a coincidence, but after each experiment like that, scope needed auto-calibration in order to give sane measurement results again.

Unfortunately, I won't have enough time for at least one more week to actually troubleshoot the PSU, since the semester just started here.
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2062 on: October 03, 2013, 09:36:35 pm »
I am left with pondering the reports of the scope being slow (WFm/s) , but not really fully understanding the implications of this , can anyone shed some light on this "slowness" ? (PM is fine if rather not OT the thread further)
To add a little to AndrejaKo's explanation, if the glitch is periodical and doesn't happen to be perfectly synchronized with the scope's trigger so that it constantly falls in the blind time, it will eventually show up on the visible time. It may be brief depending on the conditions, but you can enhance the chances of seeing it with the scope's persistence feature.

To help you make a decision, it may be useful to first analyze what you plan to use the scope for, at least most of the time. I think that between that and your budget you can get a better idea of what the best choice is for your individual case. Some sample questions to ask yourself: Do I plan to often use the scope to catch glitches? What's the highest frequencies I plan to view? Do I need to capture large amounts of data? etc.

Don't hesitate to ask questions! You'll find that most members of this forum don't mind to offer a helping hand! :)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 09:40:14 pm by TomC »
 

Offline akis

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2063 on: October 03, 2013, 10:09:26 pm »
Linear PSU had used the rf-loop but we haven't uploading results. He said that the results was fine.
BBAAHHOO, had strong adapted the psu+adapter with other add-on circuit and he gave to mainboard independend voltages (see his messages from page https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/1455/ and then).
Me had used linear PSU and supply the already mod my adapter, but as I said I have no any improvement, I don't try to remove and adapter board and give direct the appropriate voltages to mainboard (my scope was to examine a good linear psu vs Owon adapted PSU).
I did try to power up the scope using a linear PSU, but it seems I was having some regulation problems with the PSU. I set it to 8.4 V, connected it instead of battery, but once I powered up the scope, voltage dropped down to around 5 V and scope kept pulling about 1 A. I was unable to increase the voltage because for some reason the operation voltage potentiometer of my 2.3 A home made PSU produced  no results. It's the first time something like this happened. The scope keeps drawing power, but seems to be doing nothing in that mode. It could be a coincidence, but after each experiment like that, scope needed auto-calibration in order to give sane measurement results again.

Unfortunately, I won't have enough time for at least one more week to actually troubleshoot the PSU, since the semester just started here.

If I understand it right you tried to replace the battery with a bench PSU at 8.4V ? What would that achieve? The battery produces good, clean voltage anyway. The fact that your PSU stopped at 5V/1A could be because it uses a "foldback" current limiting ?
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2064 on: October 04, 2013, 05:42:43 am »
I decided to use the small toroidal core for L2. Since I wasn't happy with the coil's 60C temperature I removed the original winding wire which was an extremely thin gauge and rewinded it with 24 AWG. I could only fit 24 turns of this wire in a single layer so I went with that. The inductance at 24 turns measured 27µH. The results are as good or better than with the original wire, see #1a-1d. In addition, the temperature of the MC is now 55C and the coil's 54C. So I think I'm done with noise reduction for the -7.6V, at least until I see if I like the results when I install the PSU in the scope.

For those of you that may want to try this mod, I was able to identify the core that I'm using and it's available at least from one source on the internet. These cores appear to be very common, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of you have one someplace in the junk box. It's a T44-26 iron powder core and its permeability is 75, see the attached photo and datasheet. It is available from the following source:http://powermagnetics.co.uk/pace-components/micrometals-iron-powder-cores/all-iron-powder-cores/t-44-26-micrometals-iron-powder-toroid

So now I plan to move on to the 8.4V. Surprisingly, although the near field of D5 is extremely strong, it doesn't translate into a large amount of GND noise as it was the case with L2, see #2a-2d. However, I'm going to see if it's possible to reduce this field somewhat, hoping that this will further reduce the GND noise.

Attachments #3a-4c show what the GND noise looks like with CH1 connected to the pseudo Z-plate instead of the Pwr Sw cover. As I mentioned on a previous post the noise is very low. However, although when L2 is the trigger there is no noticeable disturbance, there is some on the captures where D5 is the trigger. #5 is just showing the GND noise the way we usually measure it when the PSU is installed on the scope. I'm hoping that it stays that low when I install this PSU in my scope, but realistically, the environment and the noise generated by the adapter board will make it different.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 03:08:47 pm by TomC »
 

Offline akis

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2065 on: October 04, 2013, 09:58:25 am »
Do you know the current drawn out of the -7.6V line? (and out of the other voltages?)
 

Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2066 on: October 04, 2013, 11:08:15 am »
I think that the answers at your question is here:

I done a test with independent main psu.
For this reason I used a Rigol DP832 Triple Output PSU. This psu has a low noise threshold (3.5mVp-p)
I gave it a +8.4V/2.5A and -7.6V/0.5A power supply to adapter board.

From what I saw, the ampere consumption doesn't bigger than 1.43A with 0% backlight until 1.55 with 100% backlight for 8.4V.
The -7.6V has stable ampere consumption of 0.160A

....
 

Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2067 on: October 04, 2013, 11:16:21 am »
TomC, very useful link for magnetic core.
I'll wait for your results on total gnd_noise. I am very curious if the total gnd_noise after these mods on psu will better from decoupling capacitors solution of the original new psu board or what is going to be if you combined the two solutions.

Andrejako, I think that your problem with the 8.4V was the limited supply ampere of your psu . For what I have seen it uses 1.6A max. approximately.
 

Offline AndrejaKo

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2068 on: October 04, 2013, 01:44:32 pm »
If I understand it right you tried to replace the battery with a bench PSU at 8.4V ? What would that achieve? The battery produces good, clean voltage anyway. The fact that your PSU stopped at 5V/1A could be because it uses a "foldback" current limiting ?

Well the goal was to avoid having to make pauses for battery recharge. I wanted to first fix noise issues with the MC34063A and the adapter board and after that proceed to look for issues with the primary side of the PSU, if there are any. On my particular PSU, the MC34063A and circuit supporting it are currently the greatest single source of noise and they make it difficult for me to inspect other noise sources inside the scope. If I use the linear PSU to provide external power, I can also use battery for the negative voltage and have very long run-times with such setup, because the current draw on the negative voltage rail is very low.
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2069 on: October 04, 2013, 03:06:58 pm »
Do you know the current drawn out of the -7.6V line? (and out of the other voltages?)
In addition, when the battery is charging, the 8.4V is designed to supply up to 3.75A, at which point it goes into current regulation rather than voltage regulation.
 

Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2070 on: October 04, 2013, 05:56:24 pm »
That's right, I had forgotten this!  :-+
 

Offline TomC

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2071 on: October 04, 2013, 09:31:07 pm »
Bad news! :--

While probing with my not so well insulated probe I touched the part of the ground barrel  that was exposed to Q1's heatsink. That connected GND-C and GND-A, something that I warned was a No-No on a previous post. |O

As expected, BOOM! :palm:

Preliminary check shows that IC1 (Richtek R7731A), Q1, and R5-R5C are fried. LF1 boiled and smoked but still has continuity, however it may have an internal short on one or both of the coils. There may be other damage that I haven't uncovered yet.

So I don't know how long it will take me to repair this thing, it will depend largely on the availability of the fried parts, specially the Richtek IC.

Edit: LF1 is fried too, internal shorts, reads low inductance.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 12:02:53 am by TomC »
 

Offline lemon

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2072 on: October 05, 2013, 08:22:16 am »
Oh no!  :palm:
It remembers me, my "boom" when I examined the bloody Richtek R7731N.

You have a lot of damages, unfortunately. In my situation the damage was to Ricthek, R9, Q1, NTC and I changed preventive the two optocouplers PH1/2.
I don't know how easy you find the R7731a, this is more easy than R7731n but I don't know how you find the LF1 without technical characteristics.
As you know, I am waiting the new boards from Owon.
If you couldn't find the characteristics of LF1, I can to remove the old LF1 and measure it to the points that you are interesting.
Also I must look to my small lab, how many trials R7731a I have, to send you one if you can't find it..
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 08:29:48 am by lemon »
 

Offline akis

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2073 on: October 05, 2013, 08:38:42 am »
You are lucky that Owon are sending you new boards. In my case I am still waiting for the UK dealer to "authorise" my claim. I believe it is Chinese New Year however so maybe that's why I have not heard back from them.
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon
« Reply #2074 on: October 05, 2013, 02:33:16 pm »
Bad news! :--

While probing with my not so well insulated probe I touched the part of the ground barrel  that was exposed to Q1's heatsink. That connected GND-C and GND-A, something that I warned was a No-No on a previous post. |O

As expected, BOOM! :palm:

Preliminary check shows that IC1 (Richtek R7731A), Q1, and R5-R5C are fried. LF1 boiled and smoked but still has continuity, however it may have an internal short on one or both of the coils. There may be other damage that I haven't uncovered yet.

So I don't know how long it will take me to repair this thing, it will depend largely on the availability of the fried parts, specially the Richtek IC.

Edit: LF1 is fried too, internal shorts, reads low inductance.

Oh mate. No! Too bad!  :-BROKE
My congratulations for the good result that you had obtained with L2.  :-+
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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