Author Topic: REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon  (Read 306708 times)

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Offline tinhead

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2011, 12:00:14 AM »
the 200MHz signal look good, sure -17db level but at least yuo can see something. I don't see a big aplitude non-linearity,
so that's good too. Btw, i see 1GSs/1ksamples, when you change with 200MHz signal attached the memory depth to 10k/100k/1000k/10M how is the picture?

FFT is ok too, with 500MHz span 1GSs is exact what it should be (is there an option on Owon to change sample rate?)

I love the FFT/double window on HanTekway and hate these cheap Rigol implementation, but it is bad
implemented - with 250MHz span only 400MSs  and 500MHz span 800MSs - that's too less, everything above
Nyquist is not a signal but alias (so the right two screen divisions are alias and not real signal).

Sure i can patch the firmware to run with 500MSs/1GSs in these two FFT ranges, but i should not compare things
which are not original (oki, Hantek told me they will work on that, whatever this means) - therefore Owon FFT is
looking good (at least from span point of view, about the accuracy i can't tell you anything).
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.

Offline marmad

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2011, 12:50:03 AM »
Quote
when you change with 200MHz signal attached the memory depth to 10k/100k/1000k/10M how is the picture?

Just tested this:  it's exactly the same at any sample depth - no change whatsoever.

Quote
is there an option on Owon to change sample rate?

Yes, you can change it from 1Sa/s to 1000Sa/s in 28 steps.

Offline marmad

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2011, 01:55:15 AM »
As of this point, I've been unable to find time to video record the second part of my review - so, unless I keep the scope, it might not happen at all (but I'll try!).  But nevertheless, I've posted many findings in this thread, and this summary should help convey my current feelings.


Summary of Owon testing:

After having used and tested the Owon now for several days I can report that, as far as I can tell, it appears that the Owon hardware is doing what they advertise - and performing to spec.  All the new features work as intended (VGA, trigger out, etc) and within the admittedly limited range of ways I have to test the device, it appears to operate like a 100MHz bandwidth, 1GSa/s scope should - providing me with equivalent data that a hacked Rigol DS1052E did.  Aside from some small, non-serious bugs which I noticed (but mostly couldn't repeat), the firmware seems to operate fine - I never had a single lock-up or crash - and I DID try to get it to do that ;)   I admit I was at first rather annoyed by the firmware (having been spoiled by the better implemented Rigol one [with better usage of English]), but, having used it for awhile now, I've gotten more used to it and it's idiosyncracies - so there are only a few things left which still trouble me.


The main faults I find with the current version of firmware (in descending order of annoyance):

[Minor:]

Show All measurements: kind of a dud - but now that I see that you can display 8 real-time measurements simultaneously outside of the normal screen wave area, this isn't very important.

No linear interpolation of points [or just the ability to turn OFF sin(x)/x]: not a biggie - but it can be handy sometimes.

[Medium:]

No Equivalent Time Sampling: again, not something used all that often - tinhead and alm have pointed out that it's often not well-implemented in cheaper scopes - so while I'd prefer to have the option, if it doesn't work well (or provides erroneous data) it's probably better not implemented.

No SCPI command set (and accompanying VISA driver) - that was a big plus with the Rigol that I will miss. But there are published specs for reading USB data from Owon scopes - so the lack of these things can be worked around for bringing data into Matlab, etc.

[Large:] (these last three are all about not taking advantage of that great big screen - and not necessarily direct somparisons to the Rigol firmware):

No coarse/fine adjust of volts/div:  the hardware is already there (push-button encoders) but just not used - why not?  Why waste precious screen real-estate by not being able to maximize the wave size(s) to fill the area?

No split-screen window for FFT or zoom: not such a big deal in terms of the FFT, since you can alter sample rates and zoom while it's running, but for marking and searching waveforms, it would really be handy. But then again, there is...

No way to mark, search easily, or jump through wave records: this is just a pain in the ass for a scope with records which can be 10Mpts long. They really need some firmware commands for this similar to what I've seen implemented on the Hantek.


On the plus side:

I owned a Rigol DS1052E for the month previous to this - and even though their firmware is (for the most part) better written and with more features (not in every regard - as mentioned below), I could NEVER go back to the tiny screen and loud fan of the Rigol.  BTW, for those of you who wonder about the relative sizes of the screens (Rigol - Hantek - Owon SDS), I've computed and attached a comparison chart - with each screen occupying an equivalent block based on actual display active area - see below.

Other features of the Owon SDS7102 that are missing from the Rigol (aside from 8" screen and quiet fan):
10Mpt sample depth
VGA output
Optional battery
Pass/fail synchronous trigger out
Math A/B            [in Hantek also]
Ext. trigger/5     [in Hantek also]
AC line trigger    [in Hantek also]

There might be more... that's just all I've noticed.


Lastly, as mentioned in other posts by me, I wanted to buy the scope in Europe if possible - meaning at something close to (or cheaper!) than the Chinese seller's prices. This is possible with Rigol and Owon, but not the Hantek; That means a price comparison, for me, of something like this:

Rigol       DS1052E: Base price with European service (but must hack it to get 100MHz bandwidth).
Owon     SDS7102: Base price + ~19% with European service.
Hantek DSO5102B: Base price + ~32% with European service [based on tinhead's figues]

In this regard, on a pure bang-for-your-buck level, the Owon seems to me to be the best buy.

So am I keeping it? Hmm... I need a little longer to think about it.  Because that's just what I need... another hacking project ;D

Screen_sizes.png (185.95 kB, 600x1350 - viewed 27 times.)

Edit:  Changed screen size chart for better representation of Hantek - tip o' the hat to tinhead ;)

Edit2:  Revised sin(x)x/linear comment and price chart.

Edit3:  Revised sin(x)x/linear comment one last time... I promise  ;)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 05:57:29 AM by marmad »

Offline patb

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2011, 02:26:12 AM »
Quote
Usability was probably on the bottom of the list when they designed this product. What a shame. Btw, have you contacted Owon yet regarding all the issues?
Well, I've softened my view a bit about the firmware (see previous post) - it still has problems for sure - and some features are missing I wouldn't mind having - but I wouldn't go so far as to say usability was at the bottom of their list.  Many of the nice hardware features (such as VGA out) are great for usability.  Anyway, I'll try to cover all these things in part 2 of my review of the device.

Well, I think that the usability is about the way you can use all the features, not the features themselves. It's about user interface and ergonomics, basically how easy it is for the end user to use the product and its features. This is how I understand it.

Anyway, once again thanks for your effort. The summary points will be really helpful for all potential buyers.

Cheers,
Patryk
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 02:36:18 AM by patb »

Offline marmad

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2011, 03:07:55 AM »
Quote
Well, I think that the usability is about the way you can use all the features, not the features themselves. It's about user interface and ergonomics, basically how easy it is for the end user to use the product and its features.

Well, I think we more or less agree on it's meaning... I think usability relates to many (if not most) aspects of a product - design, software, firmware, hardware, etc. and how they help or hinder it's use - sometimes for everyone - sometimes for a few.  A feature can be related or unrelated to usability - in my case, with poor eyesight, having VGA output increases the usefulness - i.e. ways and times I can use - the scope, but it may not be meaningful to someone else.  But anyway, having used the scope for several days, I just don't agree that usability was on the bottom of their list during design and development - I think they made choices - based on money and development time. Some of those choices provide extra usability - some of them get in the way.

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2011, 03:22:25 AM »
Nicely done, reviewing this brand new piece of testing equipment! I like this kind of boldness in people!

I would never suggest, though, a third party to keep or not such a device. But I will definitely agree with you in that,
"It would be kind of a shame to relinquish the flash new hardware, but I can see by all I've read that the Hantek firmware is better (and the electronics are proven) - and even though I would end up with a DSO without as many initial bells and whistles, I'd have one which is less frustrating and probably more useful in the long term."

Before making decisions, I would firstly need to examine the new hardware and the possible hackability of the firmware. But I realise that your hands are tied in that regard...

Anyway, concerning Owon's optional battery and its silent fan, I think that it would not take much to hack DS1052E's PSU: Adding actually a daughter-board to the stock PSU PCB with a few >90% efficient DC-DC converters (3 x SiC417 SiC413 for the -6V50/+3V35/+6V40 lines and a MAX618+317L for the +15V0 line generation) and a Pico-Power AVR uC (to charge the battery, supervise the input/output voltages and control the fan) to support these functions, too: Given that Rigol's mainboard+display power consumption is ~11W, a battery pack of 10V8/4Ah (using 3*2*3.6V/2000mAh 18650-type cheap Chinese cells) would be enough for four hours of operation per charge, as I have quickly estimated, or five hours respectively by using 2500mAh cells. I guess that hacking the Hantek PSU also (-6V50/+3V30/+6V50/+15V0) should not be much different.


-George



Edit: It is SiC413 (not SiC417, I mistakenly wrote)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 04:41:02 AM by A Hellene »

Offline tinhead

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2011, 04:29:49 AM »
No coarse/fine adjust of volts/div:  the hardware is already there (push-button encoders) but just not used - why not?  Why waste precious screen real-estate by not being able to maximize the wave size(s) to fill the area?

let's hope the encoder buttos are routed/connected - if so, then there is a chance that this feature will be implemented later.
Knowing the issues with announced LAN which was not ready in time the chance is actually big - when their routed.

No way to mark, search easily, or jump through wave records: this is just a pain in the ass for a scope with records which can be 10Mpts long. They really need some firmware commands for this similar to what I've seen implemented on the Hantek.


yeah, this is very odd

I've computed and attached a comparison chart - with each screen occupying an equivalent block based on actual display active area - see below.


actually your Hantek screenshot is while within dual window mode, when in single mode the menu on
right side can be hiden, so the wavearea is larger.

Rigol       DS1052E: Base price with 3 years European service (but must hack it to get 100MHz bandwidth).
Owon     SDS7102: Base price + ~18.5% with 3 years European service.
Hantek DSO5102B: Base price + ~33.5% with ? years Chinese service (an oxymoron?).


Hantek - 3years Hantek warranty and if you buy in EU or course with european service, however
the warranty in EU depends on where you buy (elec3i 2yrs)

As for the price:
SDS7102
www.eleshop.nl - 449EUR (+26% of Rigol price)
www.messgeraete-chemnitz.de - 458EUR
where you bought it?

Rigol:
batronix.com - 355EUR

Hantek DSO5102B:
elec3i - 569EUR
xxxx - 469EUR (+32% of Rigol price)

Hantek DSO5062B (but must hack)
elec3i - 499EUR
xxxx - 399EUR (+12% of Rigol price)

In my opinion from price/performance ratio Hantek is the best choice (when you can put your finger inside),
and Owon when you need more memory* and can't/don't want put your finger inside.
The screen might be a bit bigger on Owon than on Hantek but without markes/proper zoom "useless",
so let's say no win.

Now depends on what inside Owon it might be possible to hack them too, for sure you will not get extra 1GSs
while hacking 7102 to 8102 but probably it will be possible to change the bw - at least on 8102 which is identical
to 8202 (except bw). These 650EUR for SDS8102 are maybe "much" but if these 10Mpoint memory can be
accessed with 2GSs then definitely worth to pay that price - even if the firmware sucks a bit.

Now i'm even more curious what inside, especially ADCs/Memory/SoC (or only FPGA?)

*more memory - so if you not made a mistake then that's the first low range DSO with real fast memory.
I would love to have 1Mpoint memory sampled with 1GSs, these 400 or 500MSs while within long memory are cheat,
but sure i accepted it because of the low price. And now Owon does have 10M per channel, now i understand
why Hantek is working on 2M option (not that this will change anything, it will be still/probably sampled slow).
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.

Offline marmad

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2011, 06:25:27 AM »
Quote
actually your Hantek screenshot is while within dual window mode, when in single mode the menu on
right side can be hiden, so the wavearea is larger.


Oh, I know... I just meant each 'whole' display image compared to the other.  I only used the dual window Hantek image because I liked it (nothing to do with side menu) - and it related to my criticism of the Owon firmware.  But I had to do research to find the actual dimensions of each screen (not diagonal - but width) so it would be correct.  BTW, according to my calculations, the Hantek has the most pixels per mm - 5.25, followed by the Owon at 4.9, and the Rigol with 2.8.

Quote
As for the price:
SDS7102
www.eleshop.nl - 449EUR (+26% of Rigol price)
www.messgeraete-chemnitz.de - 458EUR
where you bought it?


I got it from eleshop for € 355 (including shipping but excluding VAT - which I don't consider in the price because either I don't pay it - or I get it back later). The guys who own eleshop did an online group buy (with 58 other people) directly from Owon factory from end of May until middle of July - which I just missed - so they gave me a discounted price.  If I had ordered the SDS7102 one week earlier during the group buy, I could have had it for € 319 (excl.)

Quote
xxxx - 469EUR (+32% of Rigol price)


Who is xxxx?  I can't see any any decent price for the Hantek DSO5102B in Europe - on eBay it's € 400 including shipping.

Quote
Hantek DSO5062B (but must hack)


Hack to what? 100MHz?

Quote
so if you not made a mistake then that's the first low range DSO with real fast memory.
I would love to have 1Mpoint memory sampled with 1GSs


I'm sure I've made no mistake; I checked many times (also reading from the PC 10Mpts one after the next - takes about 2 seconds in total for each upload).  Plus the Owon reports the speed and length at the bottom of the screen (i.e. "1GSa/s - 10Mpts") so when you change length or time/div, it changes there.  One thing that is possible is that the screen updates are SLIGHTLY slower with 10Mpts enabled - but I'm not sure about that - it may have been my imagination - if it's slower, it's just a tiny bit.



Online gregariz

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2011, 08:09:53 AM »
If you don't want either of the Owon or Rigol... you could try the Atten... I've kind of been curious about it!

http://cgi.ebay.com/DSO-ADS1102CAL-100M-Hz-1G-Digital-Oscilloscope-7-LCD-/330587653468?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item4cf88f455c


Offline tinhead

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2011, 09:41:19 AM »
If you don't want either of the Owon or Rigol... you could try the Atten... I've kind of been curious about it!

http://cgi.ebay.com/DSO-ADS1102CAL-100M-Hz-1G-Digital-Oscilloscope-7-LCD-/330587653468?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item4cf88f455c


no, you don't want this .. CAL series have no long memory : only 40ksamples and this baby have 10Msamples,
a real big display (and not that crap 480x234).
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.

Offline tinhead

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2011, 09:53:49 AM »
I got it from eleshop for € 355 (including shipping but excluding VAT - which I don't consider in the price because either I don't pay it - or I get it back later). The guys who own eleshop did an online group buy (with 58 other people) directly from Owon factory from end of May until middle of July - which I just missed - so they gave me a discounted price.  If I had ordered the SDS7102 one week earlier during the group buy, I could have had it for € 319 (excl.)

yeah, i remember i saw something about group order as i was looking for someone having then on stock in EU :)

Quote
xxxx - 469EUR (+32% of Rigol price)
Who is xxxx?  I can't see any any decent price for the Hantek DSO5102B in Europe - on eBay it's € 400 including shipping.

guess who ... i can't do any advertisement because Dave will pruge it and some other ppl here will "purge me" because of unfair competition

Quote
Hantek DSO5062B (but must hack)
Hack to what? 100MHz?

you can hack Hantek from 60 to 100, 150 or 200MHz.

Anyway, let's focus on Owon, yeah i do believe you didn't make mistake with the 10Mpoints memory sample on full speed.
That's very nice thing, there are no (yet) competitors on that price level having such fast memory.
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.

Online gregariz

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2011, 10:44:29 AM »
If you don't want either of the Owon or Rigol... you could try the Atten... I've kind of been curious about it!

http://cgi.ebay.com/DSO-ADS1102CAL-100M-Hz-1G-Digital-Oscilloscope-7-LCD-/330587653468?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item4cf88f455c


no, you don't want this .. CAL series have no long memory : only 40ksamples and this baby have 10Msamples,
a real big display (and not that crap 480x234).


Everyones needs are different... memory depth is not something I ever have any need for. Mine is always real time probing/triggering.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 10:46:20 AM by gregariz »

Offline tinhead

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2011, 10:50:09 AM »
Everyones needs are different... memory depth is not something I ever have any need for. Mine is always real time probing/triggering.

and what Owon is doing unreal sampling ? You have no idea what you talking about.
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.

Offline baljemmett

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2011, 10:51:53 AM »
Rather random question time - can you change the colour of the traces?  From your screenshots I suspect I'd find channel 1 almost impossible to use in anything approaching real-time - the red is very dim thanks to the wonders of colour blindness!

Online gregariz

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Re: Review of Owon SDS7102
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2011, 10:58:20 AM »
Everyones needs are different... memory depth is not something I ever have any need for. Mine is always real time probing/triggering.

and what Owon is doing unreal sampling ? You have no idea what you talking about.

FFS.. just think about when you use the record length... and when you don't


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