Author Topic: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing  (Read 1357 times)

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Offline donkey

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I bought a Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope for switching power supply repairing purposes. There is a "All inputs 1Mohm//16pF CAT I 300V rms, 50 Ohm <= 5V rms" raiting is written in front of the Oscilloscope.

I bought an Oscilloscope probe G3100 (1: 100, 250 MHz, 2.5 kV) which is rated as follows
Bandwidth: 100 MHz
Rise time:   27.5 ns
Division ratio:   X100 ± 2%
Performance technology:   SMD
Input voltage:   <2500V
Incoming resistance:   100 MΩ
Input Capacity:   3.5 - 10.5 pF

In the switching power supply there are points where i read 400V dc voltages with digital multimeter and i am really worried about to damage my Oscilloscope by doing something stupid.

I want to visualize:
The rectified signal
The switching signal of the gate
The switching response of the transistor
The oscillation of the transformer at the primary and the secondary side.

Condition:
By connecting this 100X 2.5 kV raiting probe to the Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope and floating the device under test.

Question:
May i probe any two points of the switching power supply without damaging the probe and the Oscilloscope?

Thank you very much!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 03:23:53 pm by donkey »
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2018, 12:28:07 am »
You will not damage your probe or scope if the DUT is floating.

But you need to be aware that whatever you're probing, the shields and chassis of the DUT well be at a high voltage as soon as you connect the scope ground anywhere behind the mains rectifier. So don't touch it!
 
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Offline JFJ

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2018, 07:48:32 am »
Condition:
By connecting this 100X 2.5 kV raiting probe to the Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope and floating the device under test.

By 'floating' you do mean powering the device under test via an isolation transformer?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2018, 08:26:41 am »
Condition:
By connecting this 100X 2.5 kV raiting probe to the Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope and floating the device under test.

By 'floating' you do mean powering the device under test via an isolation transformer?
Oh, please don't float the DUT or your oscilloscope if you value your life. There is much more to it then just connecting an isolation transformer somewhere in the middle.

The only safe way to do these kinds of measurements is to use a CAT rated differential probe. These cost money but not so much compared to an isolation transformer. With multiple differential probes you can probe any point.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 08:28:38 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline donkey

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2018, 01:17:24 pm »
By 'floating' you do mean powering the device under test via an isolation transformer?

Yes JFJ, I mean powering the device under test via an isolation transformer.
 

Offline donkey

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2018, 01:27:09 pm »

Oh, please don't float the DUT or your oscilloscope if you value your life. There is much more to it then just connecting an isolation transformer somewhere in the middle.

Thank you for your concern nctnico!

I am not going to touch anywhere else on the DUT because of it is connected to an isolation transformer. I am not  using the isolation transformer to secure my life but to secure the oscilloscope. Is it that dangerous to use an isolation transformer? Do this setup may ruin my oscilloscope? If so, which differential probe you may recommend? What must be the test setup? I have a 2 channel oscilloscope.

Thank you!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 03:32:36 pm by donkey »
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2018, 07:49:17 pm »
Of course a differential probe is the correct way to do it - the isolation transformer is just a workaround for people who are aware of the risks for their health - though widely used, at least in the past.

I would recommend a Testec TT-SI-9001 (25MHz, €265,-) or TT-SI-9101 (100MHz, €510,-). Net prices from Batronix, Germany.
 
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Online Ice-Tea

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2018, 07:53:27 pm »
Is it that dangerous to use an isolation transformer?

Yes. As mentioned before: every metal part on your scope that you can touch (BNC connectors, parts of the chasis,...) will be connected to mains.
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Offline donkey

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2018, 08:30:01 pm »
I would recommend a Testec TT-SI-9001 (25MHz, €265,-) or TT-SI-9101 (100MHz, €510,-). Net prices from Batronix, Germany.

Thank you Performa01 for your recomendation. I made a research on some differential probes i can find local stores and the lowest price i get was the one you recomended.

It is 6 times the price of the isolation transformer :palm: and almost the same price of the oscilloscope. I haven't bought the isolation transformer yet and now i have to re-consider my test setup.

Thank you for your help.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 08:33:24 pm by donkey »
 

Offline donkey

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2018, 09:35:43 pm »
I would recommend a Testec TT-SI-9001 (25MHz, €265,-). Net prices from Batronix, Germany.

I have found a Testec TT-SI-9002 model which is rated for 20x and 200X 1400V. Which one is better to buy? If i buy this differential probe may i use the probe without any isolation transformer and measure any two points of the switching power supply without damaging the probe and the oscilloscope?

Thank you!
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2018, 10:12:12 pm »
I would recommend a Testec TT-SI-9001 (25MHz, €265,-). Net prices from Batronix, Germany.

I have found a Testec TT-SI-9002 model which is rated for 20x and 200X 1400V. Which one is better to buy? If i buy this differential probe may i use the probe without any isolation transformer and measure any two points of the switching power supply without damaging the probe and the oscilloscope?

Thank you!

I would think x10 and x100 is more convenient than x20 and x200, but it really shouldn't matter much. The voltage rating is the same for both probes and the x100 probe factor should be fine for just about anything up to 1400V.

With the differential probe you can measure any voltage difference in the circuit, as long as both individual voltages do not exceed +/-1400V with respect to your oscilloscope ground (which has to be earth potential!).

EDIT: And yes, of course you should NOT use an isolation transformer when you work with the differential probe. Both the scope and the DUT should be grounded!

 
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Offline capt bullshot

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2018, 12:29:22 am »
By 'floating' you do mean powering the device under test via an isolation transformer?

Yes JFJ, I mean powering the device under test via an isolation transformer.

Yes, that'll work. The probe ground clip will ground the DUT at the point it is connected. So do not connect the ground clip to a switching node (e.g. the source of a high-side MOSFET in a half bridge circuit to view its gate). This may lead to anything from just works to DUT destroyed. Other DC (or line frequency AC) potentials such a the "-" of the bulk capacitor will be OK. As others said, be aware of your personal safety when doing so.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 12:33:02 am by capt bullshot »
Safety devices hinder evolution
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2018, 12:32:12 am »
I would recommend a Testec TT-SI-9001 (25MHz, €265,-). Net prices from Batronix, Germany.

I have found a Testec TT-SI-9002 model which is rated for 20x and 200X 1400V. Which one is better to buy? If i buy this differential probe may i use the probe without any isolation transformer and measure any two points of the switching power supply without damaging the probe and the oscilloscope?
Another brand to consider when looking for differential probes is MicSig. The  DP10013 for example. These offer excellent value for money.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline cnkz

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2018, 01:58:51 am »
You can also use two  isolation transformers. One for the scope and one for the DUT.

But nevertheless be aware that touching two points of the DUT is still dangerous! (Or the scope and one point of the DUT)
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2018, 02:01:44 am »
1: 100, 250 MHz, 2.5 kV
Bandwidth: 100 MHz
Rise time:   27.5 ns

 :-//
 

Offline tryode

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2018, 02:57:33 am »
Yes, that'll work. The probe ground clip will ground the DUT at the point it is connected. So do not connect the ground clip to a switching node (e.g. the source of a high-side MOSFET in a half bridge circuit to view its gate). This may lead to anything from just works to DUT destroyed. Other DC (or line frequency AC) potentials such a the "-" of the bulk capacitor will be OK. As others said, be aware of your personal safety when doing so.
With a 2 (or 4 or whatever how many) channels scope with x100 probes you can use them in a "differential way" too with some math. Of course having the ground clip connected to ground and their tips to the measuring points e.g. for a HB high side driving voltage.
Anyway be very careful with mains driven stuff because you can kill yourself.
 
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Online maginnovision

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2018, 03:49:38 am »
1: 100, 250 MHz, 2.5 kV
Bandwidth: 100 MHz
Rise time:   27.5 ns

 :-//

Yea, I'm curious whether they made every number up or what happened.
 

Offline donkey

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2018, 05:20:33 am »
1: 100, 250 MHz, 2.5 kV
Bandwidth: 100 MHz
Rise time:   27.5 ns

 :-//

Yea, I'm curious whether they made every number up or what happened.

I bought the probe from this supplier. The specifications are written as such.

https://supereyes.ru/catalog/Aksessuary_k_multimetram_ostsillografam_generatoram/SCHup_k_ostsillografu_s_delitelem_G3100_1_100_250MGts_2_5_kV/
 

Offline donkey

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2018, 05:21:44 am »
Thank you all of you for your help
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2018, 05:32:02 am »
1: 100, 250 MHz, 2.5 kV
Bandwidth: 100 MHz
Rise time:   27.5 ns

 :-//

Yea, I'm curious whether they made every number up or what happened.
It is not uncommon for sales people to have very little knowledge of what they are selling. Last week I bought a piece of heavy duty chain to pull a tree from my garden. The sales guy didn't seem to know how to operate a caliper to measure the thickness of the shackles to make sure he sold me the right sized chain.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline donkey

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2018, 06:15:16 am »
I would recommend a Testec TT-SI-9001 (25MHz, €265,-). Net prices from Batronix, Germany.
Another brand to consider when looking for differential probes is MicSig. The  DP10013 for example. These offer excellent value for money.

Edited: I decide to go with the MicSig DP10013 differential probe. MicSig has half the price of the Testec TT-SI-9001 for sure but what i concern is if it has the half specifications of the Testec TT-SI-9001 model?

What an x500 vs x100 probe effects in measurement?

Which one you would choose?

Thank you!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 06:29:20 am by donkey »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2018, 06:24:08 am »
I think the quality of the design is equal. The one from Testec looks like a Pintek rebrand. 99% of the differential probes you find on the market are Pintek rebrands or clones. The one from MicSig is a rare exception to that hence the better price point.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline donkey

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2018, 06:27:41 am »
What an x500 vs x100 probe effects in measurement?
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2018, 06:36:38 am »
What an x500 vs x100 probe effects in measurement?

in short: five times less input sensitivity.

Your DSO is expected to have high sensitivity with low noise, yet I would try to stay at or above 5mV/div for reasonably noise-free measurements.

With a x100 probe, this translates to an actual sensitivity (at the probe tips) of 500mV/div (4Vpp full scale). This should be fine for just about anything within a SMPS with MOSFETs, except maybe the voltage across a current sensing resistor.

With a x500 probe, this translates to an actual sensitivity (at the probe tips) of 2.5V/div (20Vpp full scale). This sounds uncomfortably insensitive to me...
 
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Offline donkey

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Re: Rigol 2072a Oscilloscope - 230V Mains - Switching Power Supply Probing
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2018, 07:06:30 am »
What an x500 vs x100 probe effects in measurement?
in short: five times less input sensitivity.
With a x500 probe, this translates to an actual sensitivity (at the probe tips) of 2.5V/div (20Vpp full scale).

Where i live the mains voltage is over 230V's and at the fully rectified portion of the signal reaches about 400V's DC.

In the MicSig DP10013 differential probe specifications states that

Maximum Differential Test Voltage(DC+AC PK-PK):  130V(50X)
                                                                              1300V(500X)

Maximum input common mode voltage(DC+AC PK-PK):  130V(50X)
                                                                                     1300V(500X)


Does this specification means that i only can use 500x atenuation rate for my device under test or may i use the 50X atenuation without problem? 

Thank you!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 07:08:50 am by donkey »
 


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