Author Topic: Rigol announces Phoenix chipset and UltraVision II technology platform  (Read 17328 times)

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Offline boggis the cat

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Doesn't look like a touch enabled UI.  That seems to be 'behind the market', now.

(I don't much like the idea of getting greasy fingerprints all over a display that you may be trying to see fine detail on, but I guess that just shows that I am 'behind the market', too.)

The materials look a bit 'cheap'.  Why use a glossy black plastic that shows up any minor defects, when you can make it matt and it will look much better?  Weird decision making.

Hopefully they got the basics right, and have invested in their software engineering.
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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 - Multiple USB ports, hopefully mouse support - which I REALLY like on the RTB2ks

If Rigol dedicated more resources to FW, their higher end market could have some potential.
Yes support for mouse, keyboard etc...
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Doesn't look like a touch enabled UI.  That seems to be 'behind the market', now.

(I don't much like the idea of getting greasy fingerprints all over a display that you may be trying to see fine detail on, but I guess that just shows that I am 'behind the market', too.)

The materials look a bit 'cheap'.  Why use a glossy black plastic that shows up any minor defects, when you can make it matt and it will look much better?  Weird decision making.

Hopefully they got the basics right, and have invested in their software engineering.
the pictures doesn't represent well the real instrument, it looks amazing!
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Offline rf-design

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there are some real pics of Rigol's new platform.

Following the mainboard picture the routing of the 4 AFE signals to one of the ADCs seems inconsistent to me. Typical if there are two ADCs for four channels to to operate the 2CH-20GS/s + 4CH-10GS/s modes the anlog differential signal routing must be different. Only 3 signals are routed to only one of the ADCs.

My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.



Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 10:35:37 pm by rf-design »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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there are some real pics of Rigol's new platform.
the 3 USB is really spot on with the new Tek 2GHz :-DD somebody must got a sneak peak during Tek design conference meeting, or is it just coincidence? or 3 USB is some holy number nowadays...

Doesn't look like a touch enabled UI.  That seems to be 'behind the market', now.
(I don't much like the idea of getting greasy fingerprints all over a display that you may be trying to see fine detail on, but I guess that just shows that I am 'behind the market', too.)
that can be, but its not a critical criteria. its 4GHz and 20GSps (Tek is 2GHz 6.5GSps) if that scope is several magnitude cheaper than Tek's "new era" scope, i believe Tek will be a total loser (al;beit its 8ch).
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline technogeeky

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My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.
Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?

Well spotted! How bizarre is that!

Unless those units are something like FPGAs or DLPs, then maybe one of them is used for all four channels and the other is used for all other post processing. Or if one is used for four channels and the other is used for RF (in a MDO).

Can anyone imagine any scenario other than this image is a faked/mockup?
 

Offline rf-design

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My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.
Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?

Well spotted! How bizarre is that!

Unless those units are something like FPGAs or DLPs, then maybe one of them is used for all four channels and the other is used for all other post processing. Or if one is used for four channels and the other is used for RF (in a MDO).

Can anyone imagine any scenario other than this image is a faked/mockup?
What possible remain is that the fourth differential analog signal connection from the AFE is strongly folded so that the solder mask is not clearly seen from a flat angle with bad lighting. Furtheron possible the jpg compression of the image reduce the remaining visible serpentines of the folded line. In this case all four channel go into one ADC.
 

Online nctnico

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My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.
Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?
Well spotted! How bizarre is that!

Unless those units are something like FPGAs or DLPs, then maybe one of them is used for all four channels and the other is used for all other post processing. Or if one is used for four channels and the other is used for RF (in a MDO).

Can anyone imagine any scenario other than this image is a faked/mockup?
Hint: it is very unlikely to be a 1 layer board so where do the other traces go? Given the amount of space needed by the traces going to one ASIC the only explaination is that the other traces run at the other side of the board. Anyway, it is just a picture and I really don't care how a PCB is made if it works.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline technogeeky

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My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.
Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?
Well spotted! How bizarre is that!

Unless those units are something like FPGAs or DLPs, then maybe one of them is used for all four channels and the other is used for all other post processing. Or if one is used for four channels and the other is used for RF (in a MDO).

Can anyone imagine any scenario other than this image is a faked/mockup?
Hint: it is very unlikely to be a 1 layer board so where do the other traces go? Given the amount of space needed by the traces going to one ASIC the only explaination is that the other traces run at the other side of the board. Anyway, it is just a picture and I really don't care how a PCB is made if it works.

I knew that it's plausible that routing could be done on the other side of the board (except you wouldn't send 3 signals to one ASIC on one side, and then send 1 signal to the other side).

So the plausible explanation is that this is a typical two-ADC configuration except the four channels are routed one side of the board for each.  What would be the signal correspondence for each channel configuration?

1ch: data goes to both ASICs
2ch: one channel per ASIC?
3/4ch: two channels per ASIC?
 

Offline Hydron

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Looks to me like 4 channels going to the rear ADC (last one via a serpentine with poor contrast in the picture), and the front ADC connecting via 4 differential pairs and vias to the other side of the PCB.

Maybe each channel has a switchable input to either ADC, to allow any combination of channels to have higher sampling rate/memory depth when 2 or more channels are unused? Otherwise you end up with limitations on which 2 channels can be used (i.e. (1 OR 2) AND (3 OR 4), not (1 AND 2) OR (3 AND 4)).
 

Offline janekm

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Looks to me like 4 channels going to the rear ADC (last one via a serpentine with poor contrast in the picture), and the front ADC connecting via 4 differential pairs and vias to the other side of the PCB.

Maybe each channel has a switchable input to either ADC, to allow any combination of channels to have higher sampling rate/memory depth when 2 or more channels are unused? Otherwise you end up with limitations on which 2 channels can be used (i.e. (1 OR 2) AND (3 OR 4), not (1 AND 2) OR (3 AND 4)).

Since they so proudly anounced higher front-end integration in their custom AFE ASIC, this makes sense.
 

Offline Bud

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My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.
Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?

Well spotted! How bizarre is that!
...
Can anyone imagine any scenario other than this image is a faked/mockup?

Yes. The scenario is well known, and that is :  rigol has no idea what they do.
 

Online rdl

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The usual ugly Rigol front panel, just in black this time. Do people still need to be shown that knobs can also be pushed?
 

Offline blueskull

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A better translation than Google Translate...

On Jun. 8th, 2017, domestic T&M company Rigol held press conference themed "making what was the dream come true -- core chipset, tech platform and related products".



"Science starts from measurement" -- Russian distinguished scientist, Mendeleev, father of first periodic table. Electronic T&M is the infrastructure of modern industrial world. Advanced electronic T&M technology symbolizes a country becoming a world leader in industrialization.
Rigol pursues the dream of the risen of Chinese electronic T&M market, envisions to be an excellent international electronic T&M manufacturer in order to provide high quality products and solutions for global customers. Rigol focuses on electronic T&M industry, devoting its effort for 19 years, always pursuing its original dream, keeping the artisan's creed of innovation only, finally made its breakthrough on high end oscilloscope technology, filled in the technical gap between domestic electronic T&M industry and world leaders, set its first step as Chinese electronic T&M equipment being global excellence.



IC is the core technology of digital oscilloscope. There was no domestic companies devoted in designing digital oscilloscope ICs. The breakthrough made by Rigol has great meanings to the industry and the development of the country. As the first digital oscilloscope company with R&D capability, Rigol deeply understands the importance of this fact, and hence always has the dream of developing its own ICs. After 10 years of hard development, this media press Rigol reveals its digital oscilloscope chipset, code names "Phoenix". The most bright star in the pack is the world's most integrated oscilloscope AFE, code named "Beta Phonenicis", named after a star in "Phoenix Constellation".
"Beta Phonenicis" has up to 4GHz bandwidth, with all needed modules for a digital oscilloscope integrated, plus 1M Ohm digital attenuator in order to achieve true silent acoustic noise free range switching. Thanks to its unique circuit design, its overload recovery in 1M Ohm mode has been reduced to 0.5% of current products. Only very few external components are needed to build a full featured oscilloscope front end. The KISS philosophy greatly reduces design efforts and guaranteed uniformity among products. We can safely say "Beta Phonenicis" is the chip of dream in digital oscilloscope industry.
Besides AFE, Rigol also showcased its DSP chip capable of handling up to 10GS/s incoming data, code named "Ankaa", as well as 6GHz probe side differential amplifier chip, code named "Gamma Phonenicis".
"Phoenix" is fully designed by Rigol, and Rigol holds 100% IP rights of it. This symbolizes the Chinese oscilloscope industry has finally secured core technology of digital oscilloscopes, and it is an ultimate showcase of Rigol's 19 years of digital oscilloscope research and 10 years of IC R&D effort.



As the pioneer of domestic digital oscilloscope technology, Rigol keeps the pace of releasing a new oscilloscope series every 18 months, leading its industry. Rigol brought UltraVision platform 8 years ago, products based on this technology have won customers' respect and appreciation with high refresh rate as well as gradient display that competes with CRO.
This time, Rigol has brought its UltraVision II platform, this innovative platform combines the latest DSP technology, data analysis technology and waveform visualization technology from Rigol, and has higher waveform capture rate, realtime hardware digital filter and full digital triggering as well as full memory hardware measurement technology.



With the new platform, Rigol also revealed a brand new oscilloscope powered by UltraVision II platform and Phoenix chipset. The new model has 4GHz analog bandwidth, 20GS/s real time sample rate. The reveal of this model makes Rigol one of the only 5 oscilloscope manufacturers that have reached 4GHz bandwidth, making Rigol a tier 1 manufacturer.



In the past 2 decades, Rigol keeps innovating on spectrum analyzer technology. After 3 generations of evolving, Rigol unveiled its brand new UltraReal real time spectrum analyzer platform. This platform achieves high speed real time measurement, can seamlessly capture transient signal within set bandwidth, and can render its data in DPO, rainbow spectrum, PvT and other formats. The new platform also provides multiple operating modes, and supports data sharing between different modes, which enables capture and analysis of complex signal collaboratively. This expands the use of spectrum analyzer from frequency domain to modulated domain and time domain.



Rigol also revealed its spectrum analyzer demo unit based on UltraReal technology, this symbolizes Rigol being the world's 4th and China's first spectrum analyzer manufacturer that offers full featured real time spectrum analyzer. It's expected that this product will lead the trend of real time spectrum analyzer.

Finally, Rigol released its DL3000 series programmable DC electronic load product line. This product line offers up to 350W sink power. Its 5A/us slew rate, up to 20kHz dynamic mode and unique 4.3'' LED make it stand out among similar products. The abundant graphical display and intuitive menu based operation will being the new user experience to electronic loads.



This press conference showcased Rigol's powerful R&D capability and the creed of searching for excellence. Related products powered by mentioned platforms will be released soon, providing better electronic T&M solutions to customers.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 05:15:33 pm by blueskull »
SIGSEGV is inevitable if you try to talk more than you know. If I say gibberish, keep in mind that my license plate is SIGSEGV.
 
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Offline ebclr

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Elecxtronic load is also beaty
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2017, 05:28:43 pm »
 

Offline rf-design

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Thank you for the better translation.

I have heard about Rigol designing an AFE inhouse about 2010. At this time they ad to hire IC designers. But did not heard about designing a complete 2017-medium class chipset. That is a much bigger surprise than the Tek-5-series. Designing a complete chipset over 10years mean about 10-25milion invest depending on the design group size over time. This will pay off only with a high number of units in the main business of the other 4 group members. Cost wise there is no issue to stuff all scopes with the same chipset because the NRE part of the cost, which could be a double digit factor have to payed already for ADI/TI/Xilinx and need not to send oversee.

Technical interesting is that the Beta Phoenix should solve the long standing problem of a relay less AFE and improve on specs overlooked by others.

"Beta Phonenicis" has up to 4GHz bandwidth, with all needed modules for a digital oscilloscope integrated, plus 1M Ohm digital attenuator in order to achieve true silent acoustic noise free range switching. Thanks to its unique circuit design, its overload recovery in 1M Ohm mode has been reduced to 0.5% of current products.

From the text it is not clear if 0.5% mean that overdrive recovery is

1. 0.5% of the worst competition
2. 0.5% of full scale
3. 0.5% of overdrive

Nothing said about times and condition. I personal do not like the habit of all suppliers that well know imperfections by themselve of instruments have to find out by the user. Instrument selling is a different world than community goods.
 

Offline TurboTom

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@blueskull: Thanks for the translation -- this clarifies some details.

It also explains why Rigol connected all four channels to each of the two digitizing engines. As it seems, each of the digitizers is capable of 10GSa/s. If the new DSO is capable of 20GSa/s and 4GHz, it quickly becomes obvious that these are the figures for single channel operation and also why each input channels needs an analog connection to both digitizing engines.

Moreover, this means that the 4GHz figure is barely feasible for two channel operation and won't be possible in four channel mode (unless they use equivalent time sampling which seems a little obsolete in instruments of this class nowadays). If this is a problem or not for a particular application and if the instrument is a real competitor in the global market at the pricing yet to be disclosed, the customer will finally decide. At least, it's not going to be a mainstream instrument with hunderd thousands of sold units. In this instrument class, probing already becomes a challenege and a lot of speciality knowledge / experience is required to take and interpret measurements properly.

I definitely wish Rigol luck with their new design since a further competitor can only be good for the global T&M instrument market.

Cheers,
Thomas
 

Offline blueskull

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Moreover, this means that the 4GHz figure is barely feasible for two channel operation and won't be possible in four channel mode (unless they use equivalent time sampling which seems a little obsolete in instruments of this class nowadays).

My MSOX6004A also doesn't do 6GHz when same group channels are used together due to 10Gsps limit. I guess it's a common practice.
SIGSEGV is inevitable if you try to talk more than you know. If I say gibberish, keep in mind that my license plate is SIGSEGV.
 

Offline rf-design

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Moreover, this means that the 4GHz figure is barely feasible for two channel operation and won't be possible in four channel mode (unless they use equivalent time sampling which seems a little obsolete in instruments of this class nowadays). If this is a problem or not for a particular application and if the instrument is a real competitor in the global market at the pricing yet to be disclosed, the customer will finally decide. At least, it's not going to be a mainstream instrument with hunderd thousands of sold units. In this instrument class, probing already becomes a challenege and a lot of speciality knowledge / experience is required to take and interpret measurements properly.

Cheers,
Thomas

They could use for a 4CH-20GS/s simply 4 ADCs chips at the production cost which are a fraction of the NRE. No problem to offer this. Aliasing in the case of breaking the useful 5x rule was not an issue in past for marketing and selling a scope.
 

Online rsjsouza

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This level of investment really brings a lot of excitement to the T&M market. If successful, the chipset proves (once again) how entry level markets can act as enablers of technology. I have seen both examples in the electronics industry, though.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online pascal_sweden

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there are some real pics of Rigol's new platform.





Nice pictures! Did you attend the conference?
Were there any handouts?

The new design again confirms that Rigol has better designers in house than GW-Instek :)
 

Offline thm_w

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Do people still need to be shown that knobs can also be pushed?
I like the design, but I agree with the button thing. R&S and keysight do this as well.
 

Offline EEVblog

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More



So 1G memory, 20GS/s, 600Kwfps, 4GHz bandwidth, 1M FFT, touch, and most importantly , "fashionable"!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 05:41:24 pm by EEVblog »
 

Online pascal_sweden

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What is the source of these additional pictures Dave? Trump and the Russians? :)
 

Online JPortici

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"Fashionable"
 


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