Author Topic: Rigol announces Phoenix chipset and UltraVision II technology platform  (Read 18817 times)

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Offline nidlaX

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 :popcorn:
 

Offline Fungus

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They probably had it waiting for when another company finally managed to compete with the DS1054Z (eg. the new Siglent).

 

Offline technogeeky

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Chips with IDs:
  • X8106A
  • X14060

Names or Codenames:
  • ? (beta) Phoenix - up to 4GHz oscilloscope analog frontend/sampling chip
  • Ankaa - a 10 Gs/s (or 20 Gs/s "realtime") oscilloscope using ? Phoenix
  • ? (gamma) Phoenix - up to 6 GHz differential probe amplifier
  • UltraReal - Rigol's name for something in realtime spectrum analysis

Lastly, some enhanced pictures and some observations thereof:

  • The oscilloscope seems to have RGB lighted buttons like some new scopes, but maybe not.
  • The oscilloscope seems to have 14 knobs.
  • It appears to have some kind of MegaZoom-like search functionality.
  • All 14 knobs have are pushable
.
  • The oscilloscope seems to have at 7 context buttons (one set of seven, instead of two sets like the 1054z) plus Menu Off and Back
  • It has up to two function generator outputs on the front panel.
  • The oscilloscope remains 10 divisions wide.
  • The SA has 3 front USB ports for some reason...
  • The SA could have room for a tracking generator, it's just in shadow if it's there.
  • The SA has, in addition to the expected modes, PvT modes. This is Power versus Time realtime analysis which is probably recomputing the spectrum data into the frequency domain. This should be something like zero span on swept spectrum analyzers (whereas this is implemented in the realtime portion)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 08:52:26 am by technogeeky »
 

Offline technogeeky

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They probably had it waiting for when another company finally managed to compete with the DS1054Z (eg. the new Siglent).

I think all of the equipment mentioned so far is much higher end than the 1054z market and its constituents. Both of these devices would probably be the highest end device Rigol sells in their respective markets.
 

Offline ebastler

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They probably had it waiting for when another company finally managed to compete with the DS1054Z (eg. the new Siglent).

I think all of the equipment mentioned so far is much higher end than the 1054z market and its constituents. Both of these devices would probably be the highest end device Rigol sells in their respective markets.

Agree. Why would they replace the DS1000Z series now, which is by far the most recently introduced of their scope series? The new platform will probably start out at the top of their range, and eventually (over the next few years) percolate down to the 2000 series and the 1000Z series segment.
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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The big question is how mature that chipset is, and whether their next low-end scope model will already be based on their own taped chipset, or if they will still introduce a Zynq SoC based low-end scope model in between.

Exciting times at least! And many innovations from Rigol to come! Clearly a big player with a strong vision!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 08:23:46 pm by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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i hope that thing doesnt have:

1) crawling slow GUI.
2) crawling small FFT
3) buggy data output from visa programmable command USB line.
4) "pluses"

those are very well known rigol reputation. we are eyeing other brand like Siglent etc... so watch out rigol, you dont listen to your customers you will lose a large chunk of them.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline ebastler

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i hope that thing doesnt have:
...

:horse:
Excellent and valuable input. Thank you for pointing out this major technology risks which are so often overlooked.

 :=\   
 

Offline rf-design

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To me as a Tek 11A33 user I should notice that Rigol paid attention to some analog aspects of the AFE which are overlooked for decades by the big players.

"" ? Phenicis" chip up to 4GHz , integrated digital oscilloscope analog front end of all the functional modules required, but also includes 1M ? input electronic attenuator , to achieve fast and really "quiet" silent gear switch; The chip uses a unique circuit design, its 1M ? mode overload recovery time reduced to 0.5% of existing products. The chip only need to add a small amount of external components to form an oscilloscope analog front-end channel, revealing the " simple is beautiful " system design and greatly improve the digital oscilloscope consistency and reliability. "

In addition to post a 0.5% recovery spec on a product conference beside NI they are to my knowledge the only one who design a relay-less AFE. And this all w/o the big wording machines!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Oooh
New scope and spectum analyser coming.
Photos of the hybrid front end on the new 6GHz diff probe.





« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 08:57:28 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Quote
Chip is the core technology of digital oscilloscope, after no one domestic enterprises on the digital oscilloscope chip for independent research and development. RIGOL as the first digital oscilloscope research and development, manufacturing enterprises, which has a profound understanding and understanding, has been independent research and development of core chip technology vision. After 10 years of painstaking research and development, this conference RIGOL display by the three chips composed of "Phoenix" (Phoenix) digital oscilloscope chipset. One of the most dazzling "stars" is the world's most integrated oscilloscope analog front-end chip, code-named " ? Phenicis" ( named after a star in Phoenix ) .
" ? Phenicis" chip up to 4GHz , integrated digital oscilloscope analog front end of all the functional modules required, but also includes 1M ? input electronic attenuator , to achieve fast and really "quiet" silent gear switch; The chip uses a unique circuit design, its 1M ? mode overload recovery time reduced to 0.5% of existing products. The chip only need to add a small amount of external components to form an oscilloscope analog front-end channel, revealing the " simple is beautiful " system design and greatly improve the digital oscilloscope consistency and reliability. It can be said that " ? Phenicis" is the digital oscilloscope industry "Dream Chip" (the core of the dream).
In addition to analog front-end chips, RIGOL also demonstrated an oscilloscope signal processing chip with 10GSa / s data acquisition capability , codenamed " Ankaa ", and a differential probe amplifier with a bandwidth of up to 6GHz , code "? Phoenicis" .
"Phoenix Block" is RIGOL independent research and development , with independent intellectual property rights of the chipset. Marking the field of digital oscilloscope in China broke through the core chip technology, but also RIGOL 19 years of digital oscilloscope technology accumulation and 10 years of chip research and development investment in a centralized display.
 

Offline EEVblog

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They have done away with the button down the left side, and it's clearly a touch screen with the bottom menu screen items and no buttons underneath.
 

Offline EEVblog

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The chipset contains ADC, amp, and control ASIC?

 

Offline ebastler

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The big question is how mature that chipset is, and whether their next low-end scope model will already be based on their own taped chipset, or if they will still introduce a Zynq SoC based low-end scope model in between.

Yes, I'm sure they will, because they are totally into this Zync fetish thing! 
And the obvious marketing move is to announce a proprietary high-end chipset, and then ship a lower midrange SoC product...  ???
 
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Offline EEVblog

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They probably had it waiting for when another company finally managed to compete with the DS1054Z (eg. the new Siglent).

I think all of the equipment mentioned so far is much higher end than the 1054z market and its constituents. Both of these devices would probably be the highest end device Rigol sells in their respective markets.

I've heard that the DS6000 sales have been tanking for a long while now. Probably the replacement for that.
You have to shoot for the top market to rover such obviously high R&D costs.
And if this really is a dedicated ASIC, then that's a huge step for Rigol, makes them a big player.
 
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Offline borjam

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4) "pluses"

those are very well known rigol reputation. we are eyeing other brand like Siglent etc... so watch out rigol, you dont listen to your customers you will lose a large chunk of them.
Concur on the other 3 problems and others, but, come on! The "pluses" is now the family trademark!

Assuming that they do a good job, the "pluses" feature should "help engage the operator through stimulation of laugher reactions with subsequent release of positive energy" (in marketingish blabber)  :-DD

Now, seriously. The "pluses" thing is amusing. I will miss it!
 
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Online nctnico

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They probably had it waiting for when another company finally managed to compete with the DS1054Z (eg. the new Siglent).
I think all of the equipment mentioned so far is much higher end than the 1054z market and its constituents. Both of these devices would probably be the highest end device Rigol sells in their respective markets.
I've heard that the DS6000 sales have been tanking for a long while now. Probably the replacement for that.
You have to shoot for the top market to rover such obviously high R&D costs.
And if this really is a dedicated ASIC, then that's a huge step for Rigol, makes them a big player.
It will all depend on whether the firmware is working when released. The professional market is unforgiving when it comes to that. It doesn't make sense to buy a scope and put it onto a shelve for 3 years hoping the firmware is ready after that.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline EEVblog

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http://www.eeworld.com.cn/Test_and_measurement/article_2017060819416.html
Quote
"?Phoenicis" chip up to 4GHz bandwidth, integrated digital oscilloscope analog front-end all the required functional modules, including 1M? input input electronic attenuator, to achieve fast and really "quiet" silent gear switch; The unique circuit design, the 1M? mode overload recovery time reduced to 0.5% of existing products. The chip only need to add a small amount of external components to form an oscilloscope analog front-end channel, revealing the "simple is beautiful" system design and greatly improve the digital oscilloscope consistency and reliability. It can be said that "?Phoenicis" is the digital oscilloscope industry "Dream Chip" (the core of the dream).

In addition to analog front-end chips, RIGOL also demonstrated an oscilloscope signal processing chip with 10GSa / s data acquisition capability, code-named "Ankaa", and a differential probe amplifier with a bandwidth of up to 6GHz, code "?Phoenicis".

"Phoenix Block" is RIGOL independent research and development, with independent intellectual property rights of the chipset. Marking the field of digital oscilloscope in China broke through the core chip technology, but also RIGOL19 years of statistics and 10 years of chip research and development investment in a concentrated display.
 

Offline EEVblog

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http://instrument.ofweek.com/2017-06/ART-8320088-8220-30141900.html
Quote
At the conference, Pratt & Whitney demonstrated a new digital oscilloscope prototype equipped with the latest technology, equipped with the "Phoenix" chipset and UltraVision II technology platform, with 4 GHz analog bandwidth, 20GSa / s real-time sampling rate. The company also demonstrated the first UltraReal technology-based real-time spectrum analyzer prototype, DL3000 series programmable DC electronic load products.
"Rigol indeed domestic instruments instrumentation industry leader in oscilloscopes living in the forefront of domestic products; although compared with Tektronix, Agilent and other international companies there is a gap, but the company has been committed to being a premier electronics Test and measurement equipment company. "Insiders said.
Data show that the source of fine electricity was established in July 1998, is the industry's leading electronic measuring instruments research and development, production and marketing of high-tech enterprises, the main electronic measurement products and chemical analysis products, and other two categories of products; High-performance digital oscilloscope has won several international awards, breaking the foreign technology blockade, changed the high-end digital oscilloscope products in China completely dependent on the status of imports and blank. At present, the company has applied for 554 patents, of which 83.7% for the invention of patents, authorized the number of patents 275.


 :clap:
 

Offline EEVblog

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It will all depend on whether the firmware is working when released. The professional market is unforgiving when it comes to that. It doesn't make sense to buy a scope and put it onto a shelve for 3 years hoping the firmware is ready after that.

It does set apart the wannabe players.
 

Offline sibeen

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Jaysus, you would think they would hire at least one technical writer who was at least semi conversant with English.
 

Offline ebastler

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Jaysus, you would think they would hire at least one technical writer who was at least semi conversant with English.

The quotes you read above are Google-translated; the only publications so far seem to be on Chinese web sites.
 

Offline Fungus

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i hope that thing doesnt have:
...

:horse:
Excellent and valuable input. T

Got to hand it to him, he never misses a chance to bash Rigol.  :palm:

 

Online dr.diesel

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Got to hand it to him, he never misses a chance to bash Rigol.  :palm:

It did take them > than a year to fix the random crashing on the 4000 series.

Offline madires

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Let's wait for the first reviews. If Rigol delivers a proper DSO it could start a real competition and help bringing prices down to a reasonable level.
 

Offline Bud

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i hope that thing doesnt have:

1) crawling slow GUI.
2) crawling small FFT
3) buggy data output from visa programmable command USB line.
4) "pluses"

those are very well known rigol reputation.

5. Disfunctional PLL
6. Oscillating power supplies

Following my principle "No more rigol shit on my bench" I am not going to buy one but can validate assertions #5 and 6 if anyone willing to send me one for test.
 

Online nctnico

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Let's wait for the first reviews. If Rigol delivers a proper DSO it could start a real competition and help bringing prices down to a reasonable level.
I've been reading that for the past 4 years and it hasn't happened yet for >200MHz oscilloscopes. So hopes down...
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mtdoc

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They have done away with the button down the left side, and it's clearly a touch screen with the bottom menu screen items and no buttons underneath.

Yes, exactly as I was saying would happen in the new Tek scope thread!  :box:

But I never thought I'd be proved correct so soon!

The next question is how far down their line of scopes will they take this and when?  :popcorn:

It's great to see them keeping the big boys on their toes!
 

Offline ebastler

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The next question is how far down their line of scopes will they take this and when?  :popcorn:

How about 2 to 4 years for the new platform to percolate down through the DS4000, DS2000 and DS1000 range?
 

Online mtdoc

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The next question is how far down their line of scopes will they take this and when?  :popcorn:

How about 2 to 4 years for the new platform to percolate down through the DS4000, DS2000 and DS1000 range?

Yeah, that sounds about right. It probably depends on how fast the sales of those scopes starts to lag. The new low end Siglent and Keysight scopes will surely be impacting their sales.
 

Offline EEVblog

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They have done away with the button down the left side, and it's clearly a touch screen with the bottom menu screen items and no buttons underneath.

Yes, exactly as I was saying would happen in the new Tek scope thread!  :box:
But I never thought I'd be proved correct so soon!
The next question is how far down their line of scopes will they take this and when?  :popcorn:
It's great to see them keeping the big boys on their toes!

Actually, it may not be touch screen, I was dumb.
Those likely aren't touch buttons on the bottom, just regular channel info display windows.
Still has the left side button.
No Rigol scope has menu buttons on the bottom, always left/right.
But we'll see. They have obviously rejigged the interface somehow.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Yeah, that sounds about right. It probably depends on how fast the sales of those scopes starts to lag. The new low end Siglent and Keysight scopes will surely be impacting their sales.

Doubtful. The 1054Z is still the only 4CH game in town.
 

Online mtdoc

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They have done away with the button down the left side, and it's clearly a touch screen with the bottom menu screen items and no buttons underneath.

Yes, exactly as I was saying would happen in the new Tek scope thread!  :box:
But I never thought I'd be proved correct so soon!
The next question is how far down their line of scopes will they take this and when?  :popcorn:
It's great to see them keeping the big boys on their toes!

Actually, it may not be touch screen, I was dumb.
Those likely aren't touch buttons on the bottom, just regular channel info display windows.
Still has the left side button.
No Rigol scope has menu buttons on the bottom, always left/right.
But we'll see. They have obviously rejigged the interface somehow.

But the second picture sure looks like a touch screen to me. Even though there are buttons there, notice how large the menu items are, and there isn't a button for every menu item. And the bottom one has left and right arrows which would require touch, I think.




Also, on the scope pic, there does not appear to be a vertical knob for every channel, though the blurred picture makes it hard to know for sure. A higher end scope without dedicated vertical knobs would surely need a touch screen, wouldn't it?  Well, i guess we'll have to wait and see...

 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 01:25:33 am by mtdoc »
 

Online nctnico

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Yeah, that sounds about right. It probably depends on how fast the sales of those scopes starts to lag. The new low end Siglent and Keysight scopes will surely be impacting their sales.
Doubtful. The 1054Z is still the only 4CH game in town.
Not really.  Micsig and GW Instek are also offering 4 channel scopes in the same price range which have some advantages over the Rigol 1054Z.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Hydron

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But the second picture sure looks like a touch screen to me. Even though there are buttons there, notice how large the menu items are, and there isn't a button for every menu item. And the bottom one has left and right arrows which would require touch, I think.
I think the number of buttons and menu items actually matches up - the top just says "Menu" (isn't an item) and the bottom item shows which menu page it's on, with the bottom button assumed to change menu pages.

I'm not sure that it makes sense to have soft buttons on a touchscreen scope at all - the space they take could be better spent on more screen.
 

Offline technogeeky

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Also, on the scope pic, there does not appear to be a vertical knob for every channel, though the blurred picture makes it hard to know for sure. A higher end scope without dedicated vertical knobs would surely need a touch screen, wouldn't it?  Well, i guess we'll have to wait and see...


Despite the image, I think we can be pretty sure that there isn't 1 vertical knob per channel. There are only 7 knobs in that picture, and it's a 4 channel scope... Normally you'd expect 2 vertical knobs per channel, which is impossible.

If they only have 1 knob per channel (e.g. they threw away the offset knob) that would still be impossible as there are only 3 "unknown" knobs left.
 

Online mtdoc

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But the second picture sure looks like a touch screen to me. Even though there are buttons there, notice how large the menu items are, and there isn't a button for every menu item. And the bottom one has left and right arrows which would require touch, I think.
I think the number of buttons and menu items actually matches up - the top just says "Menu" (isn't an item) and the bottom item shows which menu page it's on, with the bottom button assumed to change menu pages.
Yes, I see what you mean  It still seems to me that the screen tabs are curiously large if they are not meant to be touched. And the left/right buttons on the bottom item look like touch items.

Quote
I'm not sure that it makes sense to have soft buttons on a touchscreen scope at all - the space they take could be better spent on more screen.
  Yes and no.  Next to and duplicating touch screen functions would not make sense but I have seen it done. The Micsig handheld scopes do this. On the other hand, I do think that some soft buttons makes sense - as seen on the R&S scopes and the new Tek scope.

Those new Rigol pics almost look like mock-ups.  It may be that the interface is still a work in progress. We'll have to wait and see. 

Scope watching - the nerd spectator sport!  ;D
 

Online tautech

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i hope that thing doesnt have:
...

:horse:
Excellent and valuable input. T

Got to hand it to him, he never misses a chance to bash Rigol.  :palm:
:-DD
And I though Mech was being kind stopping at #4.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline jjoonathan

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i hope that thing doesnt have:
...

:horse:
Excellent and valuable input. T

Got to hand it to him, he never misses a chance to bash Rigol.  :palm:
:-DD
And I though Mech was being kind stopping at #4.

Yeah, Rigol DS4000 owner here. Here are some more:

* Serial decodes did not work in segmented memory for years
* Bad nonlinearities in front end (disappointing spurious performance in FFT)
* Janky half-digital half-analog trigger causes waveforms to hop left and right by ~3ns while panning
* Not even Pluses. There is no pulse counter at all
* No heatsinks on ADCs, so they go bad in ~4 years
* Takes minutes to save an image to USB drive
 

Offline Fungus

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This thread is degenerating nicely now, just like all the others. Haters gonna hate.

Yeah, Rigol DS4000 owner here. Here are some more:

And... all the other brands are perfect?

(and if they are, why did you buy Rigol?  :popcorn: )
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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And... all the other brands are perfect?
(and if they are, why did you buy Rigol?  :popcorn: )
Rigol knows how to incorporate good things in their product, that we loved much. but bad things need highlighting so they dont make the stupid mistakes again, esp on the high end of their product line... and with hope, some Rigol staff have an eye on this thread and take proper action on their existing product. but maybe this is just a false hope, the other "rigol bug" thread doesnt seem to produce anything fruitfull in term of their effort. but well, no need to further derail this thread  :-\
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline jjoonathan

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And... all the other brands are perfect?
Why would I say that? Everyone knows it's all about tradeoffs. I'm in a position to share information about Rigol's tradeoffs, so I did.
 
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Offline boggis the cat

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Doubtful. The 1054Z is still the only 4CH game in town.
Not really.  Micsig and GW Instek are also offering 4 channel scopes in the same price range which have some advantages over the Rigol 1054Z.
The GW Instek GDS 1054B is better performing for the basics, but has fewer extra features (decoding options seem to be fashionable) -- they're definitely competitive on spec, but don't seem to do marketing as well.  I don't know much about Micsig, but thought that they were a fair bit more expensive.

Siglent are likely to bring out a four channel variant of their latest low-end 'scope, but it would have to be lower bandwidth or require faster sampling if they want to keep 200 MHz.

This new Rigol looks like a refresh of their top range with touch-screen.  It will probably take a while for that to reach the budget end if the market.
 

Online nctnico

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Doubtful. The 1054Z is still the only 4CH game in town.
Not really.  Micsig and GW Instek are also offering 4 channel scopes in the same price range which have some advantages over the Rigol 1054Z.
The GW Instek GDS 1054B is better performing for the basics, but has fewer extra features (decoding options seem to be fashionable) -- they're definitely competitive on spec, but don't seem to do marketing as well.  I don't know much about Micsig, but thought that they were a fair bit more expensive.

Siglent are likely to bring out a four channel variant of their latest low-end 'scope, but it would have to be lower bandwidth or require faster sampling if they want to keep 200 MHz.

This new Rigol looks like a refresh of their top range with touch-screen.  It will probably take a while for that to reach the budget end if the market.
Personally I'm not very interested in the budget end of the market. I like things to cost as little as possible but it has to work as specified out of the box. I have looked at Rigol's DS4000 series but the bugs/lack of fixes made me choose not to buy it. Another problem for Rigol DS4000/DS6000 series is that higher end oscilloscopes which aren't boat anchors from A-brands with decoding and other nice features are becoming available on the 2nd hand market for similar prices.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Siglent are likely to bring out a four channel variant of their latest low-end 'scope, but it would have to be lower bandwidth or require faster sampling if they want to keep 200 MHz.
they can keep the 1GSps sampling rate fine and the DSO is still 200MHz BW front end... other brand incl Tek and Agilent has made DSO with sampling rate only 2.5X to 6.5X of the BW.. so 5X BW sampling rate is still perfectly fine..
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline madires

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It's about bang for the buck and what you need to get the job done. There is no perfect scope! Sometimes it makes more sense to buy cheapies for specific tasks instead of a quite expensive a-brand trying to get everthing in a single box. For example, my reaction to the price of the decoding options for R&S' new DSO was "WTF?". For that money I get a nice logic analyzer with much more bang.
 

Offline Ink

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there are some real pics of Rigol's new platform.
 
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Online dr.diesel

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I like the black case!

 - Bluetooth and speaker icon - Interesting
 - Multiple USB ports, hopefully mouse support - which I REALLY like on the RTB2ks

If Rigol dedicated more resources to FW, their higher end market could have some potential.

Offline boggis the cat

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they can keep the 1GSps sampling rate fine and the DSO is still 200MHz BW front end... other brand incl Tek and Agilent has made DSO with sampling rate only 2.5X to 6.5X of the BW.. so 5X BW sampling rate is still perfectly fine..
That gets shared per channel.

1GS/s is for one channel, half that for two, then half again for four -- so only 250 MS/s per channel.  That isn't nearly adequate for a 200 MHz signal (fine for 50 MHz, and 100 MHz is about the limit).

They could derate the bandwidth as you step from two to three / four active channels, but that would be unusual.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Doesn't look like a touch enabled UI.  That seems to be 'behind the market', now.

(I don't much like the idea of getting greasy fingerprints all over a display that you may be trying to see fine detail on, but I guess that just shows that I am 'behind the market', too.)

The materials look a bit 'cheap'.  Why use a glossy black plastic that shows up any minor defects, when you can make it matt and it will look much better?  Weird decision making.

Hopefully they got the basics right, and have invested in their software engineering.
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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 - Multiple USB ports, hopefully mouse support - which I REALLY like on the RTB2ks

If Rigol dedicated more resources to FW, their higher end market could have some potential.
Yes support for mouse, keyboard etc...
Technical Support
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Doesn't look like a touch enabled UI.  That seems to be 'behind the market', now.

(I don't much like the idea of getting greasy fingerprints all over a display that you may be trying to see fine detail on, but I guess that just shows that I am 'behind the market', too.)

The materials look a bit 'cheap'.  Why use a glossy black plastic that shows up any minor defects, when you can make it matt and it will look much better?  Weird decision making.

Hopefully they got the basics right, and have invested in their software engineering.
the pictures doesn't represent well the real instrument, it looks amazing!
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Offline rf-design

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there are some real pics of Rigol's new platform.

Following the mainboard picture the routing of the 4 AFE signals to one of the ADCs seems inconsistent to me. Typical if there are two ADCs for four channels to to operate the 2CH-20GS/s + 4CH-10GS/s modes the anlog differential signal routing must be different. Only 3 signals are routed to only one of the ADCs.

My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.



Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 10:35:37 pm by rf-design »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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there are some real pics of Rigol's new platform.
the 3 USB is really spot on with the new Tek 2GHz :-DD somebody must got a sneak peak during Tek design conference meeting, or is it just coincidence? or 3 USB is some holy number nowadays...

Doesn't look like a touch enabled UI.  That seems to be 'behind the market', now.
(I don't much like the idea of getting greasy fingerprints all over a display that you may be trying to see fine detail on, but I guess that just shows that I am 'behind the market', too.)
that can be, but its not a critical criteria. its 4GHz and 20GSps (Tek is 2GHz 6.5GSps) if that scope is several magnitude cheaper than Tek's "new era" scope, i believe Tek will be a total loser (al;beit its 8ch).
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline technogeeky

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My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.
Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?

Well spotted! How bizarre is that!

Unless those units are something like FPGAs or DLPs, then maybe one of them is used for all four channels and the other is used for all other post processing. Or if one is used for four channels and the other is used for RF (in a MDO).

Can anyone imagine any scenario other than this image is a faked/mockup?
 

Offline rf-design

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My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.
Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?

Well spotted! How bizarre is that!

Unless those units are something like FPGAs or DLPs, then maybe one of them is used for all four channels and the other is used for all other post processing. Or if one is used for four channels and the other is used for RF (in a MDO).

Can anyone imagine any scenario other than this image is a faked/mockup?
What possible remain is that the fourth differential analog signal connection from the AFE is strongly folded so that the solder mask is not clearly seen from a flat angle with bad lighting. Furtheron possible the jpg compression of the image reduce the remaining visible serpentines of the folded line. In this case all four channel go into one ADC.
 

Online nctnico

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My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.
Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?
Well spotted! How bizarre is that!

Unless those units are something like FPGAs or DLPs, then maybe one of them is used for all four channels and the other is used for all other post processing. Or if one is used for four channels and the other is used for RF (in a MDO).

Can anyone imagine any scenario other than this image is a faked/mockup?
Hint: it is very unlikely to be a 1 layer board so where do the other traces go? Given the amount of space needed by the traces going to one ASIC the only explaination is that the other traces run at the other side of the board. Anyway, it is just a picture and I really don't care how a PCB is made if it works.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline technogeeky

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My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.
Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?
Well spotted! How bizarre is that!

Unless those units are something like FPGAs or DLPs, then maybe one of them is used for all four channels and the other is used for all other post processing. Or if one is used for four channels and the other is used for RF (in a MDO).

Can anyone imagine any scenario other than this image is a faked/mockup?
Hint: it is very unlikely to be a 1 layer board so where do the other traces go? Given the amount of space needed by the traces going to one ASIC the only explaination is that the other traces run at the other side of the board. Anyway, it is just a picture and I really don't care how a PCB is made if it works.

I knew that it's plausible that routing could be done on the other side of the board (except you wouldn't send 3 signals to one ASIC on one side, and then send 1 signal to the other side).

So the plausible explanation is that this is a typical two-ADC configuration except the four channels are routed one side of the board for each.  What would be the signal correspondence for each channel configuration?

1ch: data goes to both ASICs
2ch: one channel per ASIC?
3/4ch: two channels per ASIC?
 

Offline Hydron

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Looks to me like 4 channels going to the rear ADC (last one via a serpentine with poor contrast in the picture), and the front ADC connecting via 4 differential pairs and vias to the other side of the PCB.

Maybe each channel has a switchable input to either ADC, to allow any combination of channels to have higher sampling rate/memory depth when 2 or more channels are unused? Otherwise you end up with limitations on which 2 channels can be used (i.e. (1 OR 2) AND (3 OR 4), not (1 AND 2) OR (3 AND 4)).
 

Offline janekm

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Looks to me like 4 channels going to the rear ADC (last one via a serpentine with poor contrast in the picture), and the front ADC connecting via 4 differential pairs and vias to the other side of the PCB.

Maybe each channel has a switchable input to either ADC, to allow any combination of channels to have higher sampling rate/memory depth when 2 or more channels are unused? Otherwise you end up with limitations on which 2 channels can be used (i.e. (1 OR 2) AND (3 OR 4), not (1 AND 2) OR (3 AND 4)).

Since they so proudly anounced higher front-end integration in their custom AFE ASIC, this makes sense.
 

Offline Bud

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My guess is that this picture shown in the product presentation is a fake.
Was the product real? Does it have the 20GS/s or is a mockup?

Well spotted! How bizarre is that!
...
Can anyone imagine any scenario other than this image is a faked/mockup?

Yes. The scenario is well known, and that is :  rigol has no idea what they do.
 

Offline rdl

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The usual ugly Rigol front panel, just in black this time. Do people still need to be shown that knobs can also be pushed?
 

Online blueskull

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A better translation than Google Translate...

On Jun. 8th, 2017, domestic T&M company Rigol held press conference themed "making what was the dream come true -- core chipset, tech platform and related products".



"Science starts from measurement" -- Russian distinguished scientist, Mendeleev, father of first periodic table. Electronic T&M is the infrastructure of modern industrial world. Advanced electronic T&M technology symbolizes a country becoming a world leader in industrialization.
Rigol pursues the dream of the risen of Chinese electronic T&M market, envisions to be an excellent international electronic T&M manufacturer in order to provide high quality products and solutions for global customers. Rigol focuses on electronic T&M industry, devoting its effort for 19 years, always pursuing its original dream, keeping the artisan's creed of innovation only, finally made its breakthrough on high end oscilloscope technology, filled in the technical gap between domestic electronic T&M industry and world leaders, set its first step as Chinese electronic T&M equipment being global excellence.



IC is the core technology of digital oscilloscope. There was no domestic companies devoted in designing digital oscilloscope ICs. The breakthrough made by Rigol has great meanings to the industry and the development of the country. As the first digital oscilloscope company with R&D capability, Rigol deeply understands the importance of this fact, and hence always has the dream of developing its own ICs. After 10 years of hard development, this media press Rigol reveals its digital oscilloscope chipset, code names "Phoenix". The most bright star in the pack is the world's most integrated oscilloscope AFE, code named "Beta Phonenicis", named after a star in "Phoenix Constellation".
"Beta Phonenicis" has up to 4GHz bandwidth, with all needed modules for a digital oscilloscope integrated, plus 1M Ohm digital attenuator in order to achieve true silent acoustic noise free range switching. Thanks to its unique circuit design, its overload recovery in 1M Ohm mode has been reduced to 0.5% of current products. Only very few external components are needed to build a full featured oscilloscope front end. The KISS philosophy greatly reduces design efforts and guaranteed uniformity among products. We can safely say "Beta Phonenicis" is the chip of dream in digital oscilloscope industry.
Besides AFE, Rigol also showcased its DSP chip capable of handling up to 10GS/s incoming data, code named "Ankaa", as well as 6GHz probe side differential amplifier chip, code named "Gamma Phonenicis".
"Phoenix" is fully designed by Rigol, and Rigol holds 100% IP rights of it. This symbolizes the Chinese oscilloscope industry has finally secured core technology of digital oscilloscopes, and it is an ultimate showcase of Rigol's 19 years of digital oscilloscope research and 10 years of IC R&D effort.



As the pioneer of domestic digital oscilloscope technology, Rigol keeps the pace of releasing a new oscilloscope series every 18 months, leading its industry. Rigol brought UltraVision platform 8 years ago, products based on this technology have won customers' respect and appreciation with high refresh rate as well as gradient display that competes with CRO.
This time, Rigol has brought its UltraVision II platform, this innovative platform combines the latest DSP technology, data analysis technology and waveform visualization technology from Rigol, and has higher waveform capture rate, realtime hardware digital filter and full digital triggering as well as full memory hardware measurement technology.



With the new platform, Rigol also revealed a brand new oscilloscope powered by UltraVision II platform and Phoenix chipset. The new model has 4GHz analog bandwidth, 20GS/s real time sample rate. The reveal of this model makes Rigol one of the only 5 oscilloscope manufacturers that have reached 4GHz bandwidth, making Rigol a tier 1 manufacturer.



In the past 2 decades, Rigol keeps innovating on spectrum analyzer technology. After 3 generations of evolving, Rigol unveiled its brand new UltraReal real time spectrum analyzer platform. This platform achieves high speed real time measurement, can seamlessly capture transient signal within set bandwidth, and can render its data in DPO, rainbow spectrum, PvT and other formats. The new platform also provides multiple operating modes, and supports data sharing between different modes, which enables capture and analysis of complex signal collaboratively. This expands the use of spectrum analyzer from frequency domain to modulated domain and time domain.



Rigol also revealed its spectrum analyzer demo unit based on UltraReal technology, this symbolizes Rigol being the world's 4th and China's first spectrum analyzer manufacturer that offers full featured real time spectrum analyzer. It's expected that this product will lead the trend of real time spectrum analyzer.

Finally, Rigol released its DL3000 series programmable DC electronic load product line. This product line offers up to 350W sink power. Its 5A/us slew rate, up to 20kHz dynamic mode and unique 4.3'' LED make it stand out among similar products. The abundant graphical display and intuitive menu based operation will being the new user experience to electronic loads.



This press conference showcased Rigol's powerful R&D capability and the creed of searching for excellence. Related products powered by mentioned platforms will be released soon, providing better electronic T&M solutions to customers.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 05:15:33 pm by blueskull »
SIGSEGV is inevitable if you try to talk more than you know. If I say gibberish, keep in mind that my license plate is SIGSEGV.
 
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Offline ebclr

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Elecxtronic load is also beaty
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2017, 05:28:43 pm »
 

Offline rf-design

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Thank you for the better translation.

I have heard about Rigol designing an AFE inhouse about 2010. At this time they ad to hire IC designers. But did not heard about designing a complete 2017-medium class chipset. That is a much bigger surprise than the Tek-5-series. Designing a complete chipset over 10years mean about 10-25milion invest depending on the design group size over time. This will pay off only with a high number of units in the main business of the other 4 group members. Cost wise there is no issue to stuff all scopes with the same chipset because the NRE part of the cost, which could be a double digit factor have to payed already for ADI/TI/Xilinx and need not to send oversee.

Technical interesting is that the Beta Phoenix should solve the long standing problem of a relay less AFE and improve on specs overlooked by others.

"Beta Phonenicis" has up to 4GHz bandwidth, with all needed modules for a digital oscilloscope integrated, plus 1M Ohm digital attenuator in order to achieve true silent acoustic noise free range switching. Thanks to its unique circuit design, its overload recovery in 1M Ohm mode has been reduced to 0.5% of current products.

From the text it is not clear if 0.5% mean that overdrive recovery is

1. 0.5% of the worst competition
2. 0.5% of full scale
3. 0.5% of overdrive

Nothing said about times and condition. I personal do not like the habit of all suppliers that well know imperfections by themselve of instruments have to find out by the user. Instrument selling is a different world than community goods.
 

Online TurboTom

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@blueskull: Thanks for the translation -- this clarifies some details.

It also explains why Rigol connected all four channels to each of the two digitizing engines. As it seems, each of the digitizers is capable of 10GSa/s. If the new DSO is capable of 20GSa/s and 4GHz, it quickly becomes obvious that these are the figures for single channel operation and also why each input channels needs an analog connection to both digitizing engines.

Moreover, this means that the 4GHz figure is barely feasible for two channel operation and won't be possible in four channel mode (unless they use equivalent time sampling which seems a little obsolete in instruments of this class nowadays). If this is a problem or not for a particular application and if the instrument is a real competitor in the global market at the pricing yet to be disclosed, the customer will finally decide. At least, it's not going to be a mainstream instrument with hunderd thousands of sold units. In this instrument class, probing already becomes a challenege and a lot of speciality knowledge / experience is required to take and interpret measurements properly.

I definitely wish Rigol luck with their new design since a further competitor can only be good for the global T&M instrument market.

Cheers,
Thomas
 

Online blueskull

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Moreover, this means that the 4GHz figure is barely feasible for two channel operation and won't be possible in four channel mode (unless they use equivalent time sampling which seems a little obsolete in instruments of this class nowadays).

My MSOX6004A also doesn't do 6GHz when same group channels are used together due to 10Gsps limit. I guess it's a common practice.
SIGSEGV is inevitable if you try to talk more than you know. If I say gibberish, keep in mind that my license plate is SIGSEGV.
 

Offline rf-design

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Moreover, this means that the 4GHz figure is barely feasible for two channel operation and won't be possible in four channel mode (unless they use equivalent time sampling which seems a little obsolete in instruments of this class nowadays). If this is a problem or not for a particular application and if the instrument is a real competitor in the global market at the pricing yet to be disclosed, the customer will finally decide. At least, it's not going to be a mainstream instrument with hunderd thousands of sold units. In this instrument class, probing already becomes a challenege and a lot of speciality knowledge / experience is required to take and interpret measurements properly.

Cheers,
Thomas

They could use for a 4CH-20GS/s simply 4 ADCs chips at the production cost which are a fraction of the NRE. No problem to offer this. Aliasing in the case of breaking the useful 5x rule was not an issue in past for marketing and selling a scope.
 

Online rsjsouza

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This level of investment really brings a lot of excitement to the T&M market. If successful, the chipset proves (once again) how entry level markets can act as enablers of technology. I have seen both examples in the electronics industry, though.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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there are some real pics of Rigol's new platform.





Nice pictures! Did you attend the conference?
Were there any handouts?

The new design again confirms that Rigol has better designers in house than GW-Instek :)
 

Offline thm_w

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Do people still need to be shown that knobs can also be pushed?
I like the design, but I agree with the button thing. R&S and keysight do this as well.
 

Offline EEVblog

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More



So 1G memory, 20GS/s, 600Kwfps, 4GHz bandwidth, 1M FFT, touch, and most importantly , "fashionable"!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 05:41:24 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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What is the source of these additional pictures Dave? Trump and the Russians? :)
 

Offline JPortici

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"Fashionable"
 

Offline EEVblog

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What is the source of these additional pictures Dave? Trump and the Russians? :)

A Ukrainian guy in a trench coat in a dark alley at midnight.
 
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Online nctnico

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"Fashionable"
They wrote that especially for pascal_sweden since he tends to care about that sort of things in test equipment  >:D
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online MasterTech

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We live in interesting times indeed. Industries and competition are evolving so fast...
 

Online egonotto

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"A Ukrainian guy in a trench coat in a dark alley at midnight."

That are the best :)
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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 :popcorn:
Technical Support
 
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Offline pascal_sweden

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This level of investment really brings a lot of excitement to the T&M market. If successful, the chipset proves (once again) how entry level markets can act as enablers of technology. I have seen both examples in the electronics industry, though.

I guess you mean Chinese SoC companies like Allwinner Technology and Rockchip, which are both very successful.

http://www.allwinnertech.com/

http://www.rock-chips.com/a/en/
 

Online rsjsouza

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This level of investment really brings a lot of excitement to the T&M market. If successful, the chipset proves (once again) how entry level markets can act as enablers of technology. I have seen both examples in the electronics industry, though.

I guess you mean Chinese SoC companies like Allwinner Technology and Rockchip, which are both very successful.

http://www.allwinnertech.com/

http://www.rock-chips.com/a/en/
I don't know the history of these companies, but seeing them today I think they can be considered two successful examples. Although Rigol's merit in developing a device without any mainstream IP such as an ARM core is, in my opinion, a much more remarkable feat.

My sentence was not entirely clear, but I (and others for sure) have seen the opposite also happen: players in specific entry level markets completely undermine the investments in higher end technology. One example that comes to mind is the counterfeit market; another one is the race to the bottom in cost that takes down quality with it...  :( 
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline rf-design

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Prototype Platform
« Reply #82 on: June 18, 2017, 06:32:24 pm »
Please notice the small word introduced in the news text


This new platform release at the same time, RIGOL Synchronization also revealed a carrying " Phoenix"chipset and UltraVision II technology new digital oscilloscope platform prototype,it has 4 GHz analog bandwidth,20GSa/s real-time sampling rate, its release marks RIGOL global reach 4 GHz Bandwidth digital Oscilloscopes one of the five manufacturers, among the digital oscilloscope technology the first tier.


http://int.rigol.com/News/Detail/23

To present results of a prototype instead of a ready product is a message to investors too.

The time horizont for a new product depend on the outcome of the prototype result. As many knows silicon respins including all work before and after easy could mean significant fractions of a year.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 06:33:57 pm by rf-design »
 

Offline EEVblog

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I have the official english press release:

Quote
SuZhou, China – June 8, 2017 – Today RIGOL Technologies continues our 19 year

history of Test and Measurement innovation with the announcement of our new
Phoenix Oscilloscope chipset and the Ultravision II oscilloscope architecture.

These technology innovations, years in development, will help transform the RIGOL
portfolio allowing RIGOL to address the needs of higher performance applications.

There are 3 chips in the Phoenix chipset (each named after stars in the Phoenix
Constellation). The analog front end chip (named Beta Phoenicis) will allow for
front end bandwidth of 4GHz with highly integrated capability allowing for simplified
and highly reliable front end design. The Signal Processing Chip (named Ankaa)
supports 10GSa/s sampling with bandwidth up to 6GHz and the Probe Amplifier
Chip (named Gamma Phoenicis) will support a 6GHz Active Differential probe.

The ASICs are based entirely on RIGOL IP and were developed entirely inhouse.
“Over the past 19 years RIGOL has proven ourselves to be an innovator in the Basic
and Value segments of the Oscilloscope market” says Rico Wang, President of
RIGOL Technologies “but with the introduction of this new chip set, developed
through years of painstaking research and development, RIGOL will now be able to
bring the RIGOL value proposition to more performance oriented applications.”

The Phoenix Chipset enables RIGOL to revolutionize our scope performance with
the new UltraVision II architecture. These enhancements will lead to products with
significantly faster waveform capture rates, new filtering and triggering capabilities,
and unprecedented memory depths and search capabilities. When combined with
Rigol Marketing

2017 Newsletter in July
the HW performance of the Phoenix Chipset, Ultravision II will transform the
customer value proposition in the 1-4GHz oscilloscope market.

At the chipset launch review in Suzhou China RIGOL demonstrated our prototype
scope utilizing Phoenix and Ultravision II. With 4GHz Bandwidth, 20GSa/sec
realtime sample rate and 1Billion point memory depth it shows that there will soon
be a new player in the performance oscilloscope market.

Mike Rizzo, General Manager of RIGOL North America says, “We are very excited
for the introduction of products utilizing the new Phoenix chipset. It will allow us to
bring our unique RIGOL price performance value proposition to a new class of
customers needing advanced instrument performance and application support.

RIGOL will formally announce our first products utilizing the Phoenix Chipset before
the end of 2017 with initial customer shipments planned in Q42017.”
About RIGOL Technologies:
RIGOL Technologies is transforming the Test and Measurement Industry. Our
premium line of products includes Digital and Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes, Spectrum
Analyzers, Function/Arbitrary Waveform Generators, Programmable Power
Supplies and Loads, Digital Multimeters, Data Acquisition Systems, and application
software. Our test solutions combine uncompromised product performance,
quality, and advanced product features; all delivered at extremely attractive price
points. This combination provides our customers with unprecedented value for their
investment, reduces their overall cost of test, and helps speed time to completion
of their designs or projects.
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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This is not surprising, the Chinese government has been driving a LOT of money into R&D research. The military in particular really would like to have domestic T&M companies to do business with, instead of relying on the west. It was only a matter of time before this happened, good job on Rigol to make it happen.

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This is not surprising, the Chinese government has been driving a LOT of money into R&D research. The military in particular really would like to have domestic T&M companies to do business with, instead of relying on the west. It was only a matter of time before this happened, good job on Rigol to make it happen.

That would be interesting to know if they did get government funding for this?
 

Online nctnico

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Not a word about upgrading the firmware department!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online blueskull

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That would be interesting to know if they did get government funding for this?

While I think Chinese government doesn't care about domestic oscilloscope technology as they can get Keysight or Tek scopes easily even for military usage, they are interested in the ADC technology.

I have no idea if Rigol is funded, but the chance is real. I have came across a report that says western high speed telecom chips have more than 99% gross margin (compared with silicon wafer cost) and Chinese government is funding a lot of domestic companies to clone this technology and bring the cost down. This was originated in telecom field and benefited Huawei and ZTE and some other telecom companies (both infrastructure and terminal), and then to CPU/RAM/FLASH business as there are quite some prototype super computers in China using domestically made (domestic IC design, TSMC/ST fab service).

It makes sense to expand that research funding opportunity to high speed ADC since direct RF sampling and DDC/DUC is the trend and if Chinese telecom companies like Huawei and ZTE want to keep the leadership in 5G gears, like they do now in 4G gears, they need to find a way to make it happen, both technically and economically.
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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I have the official english press release:
[...]

[...] At the chipset launch review in Suzhou China RIGOL demonstrated our prototype
scope utilizing Phoenix and Ultravision II. With 4GHz Bandwidth, 20GSa/sec
realtime sample rate and 1Billion point memory depth it shows that there will soon
be a new player in the performance oscilloscope market.

We'll see about that. Just having the BW and the sample rate isn't enough in this class, the large amounts of data that such a scope generates require a very fast processing backend. Also, customers rightfully expect a wide range of measurement and analysis capabilities in this class.

Quote
Mike Rizzo, General Manager of RIGOL North America says, “We are very excited
for the introduction of products utilizing the new Phoenix chipset. It will allow us to
bring our unique RIGOL price performance value proposition to a new class of
customers needing advanced instrument performance and application support.

I'll believe it when I see it. The last "Rigol price performance value proposition" outside the low-end/entry level class brought us the DS6000, an overpriced and slow embedded scope with very little measurement and analysis capabilities where after several years on the market major functionality is still buggy.

The mid-range and high-end scope markets are a lot less price sensitive than the low-end/entry level segment, and if Rigol believes they can make an impression with another overpriced, buggy scope with an entry level feature set then they're again in for a big disappointment.
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Offline npeter

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Re: Rigol announces Phoenix chipset and UltraVision II technology platform
« Reply #89 on: November 20, 2017, 11:25:01 pm »
Any news about the new oscilloscope models?

Should I hold my breath for a this year announcement maybe with some good initial promotions like R&S did with the RTB2000 series?
They said that the new line would be available in Q4 2017.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Rigol announces Phoenix chipset and UltraVision II technology platform
« Reply #90 on: November 21, 2017, 02:18:35 am »
I'd wait with buying anyway. If you wait the price may be lowered, irritating bugs fixed and hacks may become available. R&S still hasn't fixed many bugs in the RTB2000 and they don't have a stellar record when it comes to fixing bugs in a timely manner. All in all the initial deal isn't that good. I want to use a scope and not pay for the privilige to be a software beta tester.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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