Author Topic: Rigol DS1054Z or not?  (Read 4029 times)

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Offline ultrarunner2018

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Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« on: August 31, 2018, 12:35:37 pm »
Hi;
I know that there are several (if not many) threads on the Rigol DS1054Z, but rather than hijack someone else's thread, I figured I should start my own.

I have spent the better part of the day researching oscilloscopes in the < $500 price range. I have watched a couple of Dave's EEVblog videos on the Rigol DS1054Z. He seems to be very enthusiastic about this scope; moreso than the Siglent SDS1202X-E (200Mhz) for example. I have learned a lot about DSO's in the process.

At this point I believe that the Rigol DS1054Z would be my best option. I can't imagine using many of its features, but it seems to be a solid 4-channel scope. Of course I understand the limitations of 4 channels with 1Gsa/sec, but how often will I actually use the full bw while also using all four channels?
I also understand that the 100Mhz hack still works, and that there is a discount at TEquipment for members of this forum. So I'm not rushing out to buy anything today; I need to consider all the factors, and think about what I really want to do with this scope.

In the immediate future, I am planning to build some Raspberry Pi projects. I just bought a Pi 3 b+ and have been studying Python programming for the pi. So I got to thinking that I could probably use (or might actually need) a scope for some of the projects I want to build.

I am also a ham, and have several radios including a Yaesu FT-450D, FT-60R, VX-150, and an old FT-530. I was thinking about adding the pan-adapter to the FT-450D, but I don't know how much work is involved. Whether or not I will need a scope for that, I don't know. But I am sure that I will have many uses for a scope in the future.

My budget is definitely under $500, but more comfortable with under $400, thus the DS1054Z.

I am not really in a rush to get a scope - I'm still a couple weeks away from knowing enough Python 3 to build any of the Pi projects, but on the other hand, I don't want to wait too long - in case Rigol does decide to change the firmware on the 1054Z and the 100Mhz hack stops working...

Thanks for your help

FW
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2018, 12:55:00 pm »
I don't want to wait too long - in case Rigol does decide to change the firmware on the 1054Z and the 100Mhz hack stops working...

Not going to happen.

There's no ongoing "battle" between Rigol and hackers, Rigol knows that the hack helps them to sell oscilloscopes. If they stopped the hacking now then everybody would buy Siglents instead.



 

Offline xrunner

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2018, 01:01:23 pm »
At this point I believe that the Rigol DS1054Z would be my best option. I can't imagine using many of its features, but it seems to be a solid 4-channel scope.

Hello!

I could afford a better scope but I have the DS1054Z and I have made many repairs using it. I have used all four channels to document signal information for others that may have wanted to repair some of the items I worked on. It's a good scope for the money still to this day. There are others available now but since I have had mine for four years I don't regret buying it.

 :)
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Offline GregDunn

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2018, 01:16:05 pm »
The Rigol is a bargain as a low-end scope.  I elected to buy one of the Siglent DS1104X-E because of the faster sampling rate in 3 or 4 channel modes, and the more responsive user interface.  As a bonus, having a realtime remote web interface is far more useful than I thought it would be; I can monitor a test from my upstairs office computer and make screen captures to document what I'm seeing.  Well worth the extra money to me.
 

Offline ultrarunner2018

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2018, 01:56:02 pm »
The Rigol is a bargain as a low-end scope.  I elected to buy one of the Siglent DS1104X-E because of the faster sampling rate in 3 or 4 channel modes, and the more responsive user interface.  As a bonus, having a realtime remote web interface is far more useful than I thought it would be; I can monitor a test from my upstairs office computer and make screen captures to document what I'm seeing.  Well worth the extra money to me.
Doesn't the SDS1104X-E have the same 1Gsa/sec that the Rigol DS1054Z has?
Unless that's per channel and not all channels combined as with the Rigol.

Edit: OK, I see the difference. Two ADC's vs one, so 2x the sample rate when 4 channels are active.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 01:58:01 pm by ultrarunner2018 »
 

Online tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2018, 02:04:53 pm »
The Rigol is a bargain as a low-end scope.  I elected to buy one of the Siglent DS1104X-E because of the faster sampling rate in 3 or 4 channel modes, and the more responsive user interface.  As a bonus, having a realtime remote web interface is far more useful than I thought it would be; I can monitor a test from my upstairs office computer and make screen captures to document what I'm seeing.  Well worth the extra money to me.
Doesn't the SDS1104X-E have the same 1Gsa/sec that the Rigol DS1054Z has?
Unless that's per channel and not all channels combined as with the Rigol.

Edit: OK, I see the difference. Two ADC's vs one, so 2x the sample rate when 4 channels are active.
Correct. Also each ADC has 14 Mpts support for a max on any one channel of 14 Mpts.
I have spent the better part of the day researching oscilloscopes in the < $500 price range. I have watched a couple of Dave's EEVblog videos on the Rigol DS1054Z. He seems to be very enthusiastic about this scope; moreso than the Siglent SDS1202X-E (200Mhz) for example.
Understandable, 4ch vs 2.

If you want to stack up these 3 side by side, it's been done in a comparison table in the first post in this thread:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/
Check it out.
Come back with anything you have trouble getting to grips with.
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Offline JS

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2018, 02:09:32 pm »
The Rigol is a bargain as a low-end scope.  I elected to buy one of the Siglent DS1104X-E because of the faster sampling rate in 3 or 4 channel modes, and the more responsive user interface.  As a bonus, having a realtime remote web interface is far more useful than I thought it would be; I can monitor a test from my upstairs office computer and make screen captures to document what I'm seeing.  Well worth the extra money to me.
Doesn't the SDS1104X-E have the same 1Gsa/sec that the Rigol DS1054Z has?
Unless that's per channel and not all channels combined as with the Rigol.

Edit: OK, I see the difference. Two ADC's vs one, so 2x the sample rate when 4 channels are active.
Also with two channels if you don't select 1 and 2 or 3 and 4.

I ended choosing the Rigol, but the price difference for me was much greater than for most.

JS
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Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2018, 08:36:19 pm »
If you want to stack up these 3 side by side, it's been done in a comparison table in the first post in this thread:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/
Check it out.
Come back with anything you have trouble getting to grips with.

Oh, sure, a chart made by Siglent fanboys using an unhacked Rigol and cherry picked data points. Basically a Siglent sales brochure.

eg. How come the waveform memory isn't in red for the Siglents? The Rigol definitely has more (24 vs 14).

Clue: Anything on there that says "option" in the Rigol column should be included and the green removed from the Siglent columns.

etc.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 09:27:58 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline ultrarunner2018

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2018, 10:20:18 pm »
If you want to stack up these 3 side by side, it's been done in a comparison table in the first post in this thread:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/
Check it out.
Come back with anything you have trouble getting to grips with.

Oh, sure, a chart made by Siglent fanboys using an unhacked Rigol and cherry picked data points. Basically a Siglent sales brochure.

eg. How come the waveform memory isn't in red for the Siglents? The Rigol definitely has more (24 vs 14).

Clue: Anything on there that says "option" in the Rigol column should be included and the green removed from the Siglent columns.

etc.
If you're talking about the Rigol DS1054Z, I think it comes standard with 12M memory with 24M as an option. Does the hack open that up as well?
 

Offline ultrarunner2018

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2018, 10:44:13 pm »
Comparing the Siglent SDS1104X-E to the Rigol DS1054Z (hacked), what stands out the most is the 2x ADC for double the sps in multi-channel use. From what I read, there is one ADC for channels 1 & 2, and another for channels 3 & 4. So, if you use only two channels, you can get the full 1Gsa/sec on each by using channels 1 & 3 (or 1 & 4, or 2 & 3...); am I correct on this?

I wonder if the SDS1104X-E suffers from the same glitches that the SDS1202X-E does? In the EEVblog review I watched, there were a couple serious "glitches"; one where the scope needed to be rebooted.

Since the price difference between the Rigol DS1054Z (with the 100Mhz hack) and the Siglent SDS1104X-E is $150, I really need to know that the Siglent is that much better than the Rigol before I could justify the extra cash.
I do like the 2x ADC's, and the realtime remote web interface. From what I read about the Rigol, their remote software is useless.
I may have application for that, as my workbench is across the room from my PC, and if I am running my Raspberry pi headless, it would be nice to have both the pi and the scope available on my PC.
 

Offline Old Printer

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2018, 10:44:34 pm »
Hi;
I know that there are several (if not many) threads on the Rigol DS1054Z, but rather than hijack someone else's thread, I figured I should start my own.

I have spent the better part of the day researching oscilloscopes in the < $500 price range. I have watched a couple of Dave's EEVblog videos on the Rigol DS1054Z. He seems to be very enthusiastic about this scope; moreso than the Siglent SDS1202X-E (200Mhz) for example. I have learned a lot about DSO's in the process.



My budget is definitely under $500, but more comfortable with under $400, thus the DS1054Z.

I am not really in a rush to get a scope - I'm still a couple weeks away from knowing enough Python 3 to build any of the Pi projects, but on the other hand, I don't want to wait too long - in case Rigol does decide to change the firmware on the 1054Z and the 100Mhz hack stops working...

Thanks for your help

FW

First off, welcome to the forum. A day, or even a week is not enough time to study this scope market unless you are already very familiar with digital scopes. Much of Dave's enthusiasm for the 1054Z is a few years old. Not saying he still does not feel that way, but when those videos were made the 1054Z stood alone. Since then a few others have joined the market. You also need to get to know the posters whose advice you are listening to, impartiality should not be taken for granted, for one reason or  another. If this is an important purchase for you and you are not in a hurry, take some time and learn the machines.
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2018, 10:49:42 pm »
If you want to stack up these 3 side by side, it's been done in a comparison table in the first post in this thread:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/
Check it out.
Come back with anything you have trouble getting to grips with.

Oh, sure, a chart made by Siglent fanboys using an unhacked Rigol and cherry picked data points. Basically a Siglent sales brochure.

eg. How come the waveform memory isn't in red for the Siglents? The Rigol definitely has more (24 vs 14).

Clue: Anything on there that says "option" in the Rigol column should be included and the green removed from the Siglent columns.

etc.

We sould not discuss the bias of the colors. A Rigol "fanboy" only has to switch the red by green and there he has it: A chart made from the perspective of a Rigol salesman.  (it's only some shifts in the RGB pallete...)

The colors just help make a quick visual comparison.

But, of course, what is important is if the written information is correct or not!

Regarding the Options/BW licensing: in the past few months it has become evident that it's as easy to license a Siglent as it is to license a Rigol.

As such, it's clear that both companies are pricing their products based on the full potential of their products.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 10:53:24 pm by tv84 »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2018, 10:55:00 pm »
If you're talking about the Rigol DS1054Z, I think it comes standard with 12M memory with 24M as an option. Does the hack open that up as well?

Yes. It opens up every possible option.
 

Offline JanJansen

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2018, 10:59:46 pm »
About time for Rigol to make a replacement, i been waiting so long.
Siglent is always biassed on this forum, for that reason stay away from siglent.
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Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2018, 11:00:28 pm »
Regarding the Options/BW licensing: in the past few months it has become evident that it's as easy to license a Siglent as it is to license a Rigol.

We'll see if it lasts. Siglent has a history of closing loopholes.

 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2018, 11:01:12 pm »
Many distributors meanwhile offer a 30 days no-questions-asked return policy. Why not just order the two instruments that fit the frame best, compare them side-by-side and then keep the one that you like better? Of course, applying the "hacks" is probably not an option during this test phase (yet, in case of the DS1054Z the hack can be reverted without a trace, in case of the Siglent or others I have no experience). But the general "look and feel" in my opinion is more important than subtle differences in features (except they are important in your specific case -- for example, if the FFT is something you'll use often, skip the Rigol... while the Rigol has the more mature firmware and probably is less buggy).

Cheers,
Thomas
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2018, 11:01:41 pm »
About time for Rigol to make a replacement, i been waiting so long.
Siglent is always biassed on this forum, for that reason stay away from siglent.

There's quite a few Siglent salesmen posting here (some of them even put it in their signatures).
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2018, 11:09:29 pm »
Regarding the Options/BW licensing: in the past few months it has become evident that it's as easy to license a Siglent as it is to license a Rigol.

We'll see if it lasts. Siglent has a history of closing loopholes.

It may be (almost) so in the functionality features. In regards to Options\BW licensing, Siglent can't do nothing for all the models that are out on the street. And, I'm not talking about disabling pro_mode.

BTW, I would love to be a Rigol DS7000 fan!
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2018, 11:10:56 pm »
Be sure to put the GW Instek GDS1054B on your list as well. This oscilloscope can also be hacked to have all the options like decoding, waveform search, etc available.
It seems there is also a 300MHz bandwidth option http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/possible-gw-instek-gds-1000b-hack/msg1647953/#msg1647953
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Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2018, 11:13:30 pm »
Of course I understand the limitations of 4 channels with 1Gsa/sec

It's not actually a limitation on a 100MHz 'scope, 250Msa/sec is enough to reconstruct a 100MHz signal on screen (Nyquist limit is  200Msa/sec.)

The Siglent needs more than 1Gsa/sec because it can be a 200MHz 'scope.

but how often will I actually use the full bw while also using all four channels?

Hopefully never. If you want to look at a signal with 100MHz base frequency then you need much more than a 100Mhz 'scope or you won't see any harmonics/distortions. All you can really see on a 100MHz 'scope is the 100MHz base sine wave.

This is another reason why 250Msa/sec. is enough, in reality you won't be looking at 100MHz waveforms.

nb. If you want to see every last detail of a step input then you can switch to a single channel to look at it - you have the full 1Ghz sample rate.
 

Offline Old Printer

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2018, 11:13:49 pm »
About time for Rigol to make a replacement, i been waiting so long.
Siglent is always biassed on this forum, for that reason stay away from siglent.

Case in point - Siglent scopes are no good because people here like them. Surely there is better criteria for selecting the best scope for you. Read everything, listen to everybody, and do your own homework.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2018, 11:18:48 pm »
Siglent can't do nothing for all the models that are out on the street.

They can fix bugs and add new features - make the hackers jealous/miserable.

BTW, I would love to be a Rigol DS7000 fan!

It's quite nice. They'll own the market if it turns out to be hackable.

About time for Rigol to make a replacement, i been waiting so long.

Rigol have been concentrating on making an ASIC for the mid-range market (ie. their new DS7000).

Now that's done they'll surely go back to the low end market and put the ASIC in a low-cost 'scope.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 11:21:07 pm by Fungus »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2018, 11:33:47 pm »
Case in point - Siglent scopes are no good because people here like them.

Not true. Siglent 'scopes are good enough, but overall bang-per-buck is less than a hacked Rigol.

OTOH: If the Siglent hacks being found right now are easy to apply and work in the long-term it means you can get a 200MHz, 4-channel Siglent for $500. That puts it in the same value category as the $350 Rigol, IMHO.

Is there really a big difference in ordinary use? That's debatable but, hey, a working 200Mhz hack at least makes it competitive price-wise.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 11:36:59 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2018, 11:51:03 pm »
If you want to stack up these 3 side by side, it's been done in a comparison table in the first post in this thread:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/
Check it out.
Come back with anything you have trouble getting to grips with.

Oh, sure, a chart made by Siglent fanboys using an unhacked Rigol and cherry picked data points. Basically a Siglent sales brochure.

eg. How come the waveform memory isn't in red for the Siglents? The Rigol definitely has more (24 vs 14).

Clue: Anything on there that says "option" in the Rigol column should be included and the green removed from the Siglent columns.

etc.

First. Of course if we compare things need use official versions, not "illegally" hacked.

Why memory is not red in Siglent.
Because if do this, then need do more colums in table.
Siglent have 2x 14Mpts max. Rigol 1x 24Mpoints if Option is active.
But then, again Siglent go to green if 3 or all 4 channels are in use. Then Rigol with option have 6M for each channel and Siglent 7M.
What are "cherry picked". Ok, you can do opposite cherry pick. I will recommend you to do it. Lets see after then how nice chart you get.
Do you really think I'm Siglent fanboy. This is so far away truth what ever can be. You are fall in love with Rigol and this make you extremely biased and blind.  With my profession with electronics I can not be any single manufacturter fanboy, never. It was tens of years ago I have been small amount of Tektronix, Hewlett-Packard and Rohde&Schwarz "fanboy. Also I have been some years in history Rockwell Collins and Racal "fanboy".

Last two months in real life I have recommended when asked least LeCroy, Keysight, Tektronix, Rigol, Owon, R&S, Siglent, Fluke, Victor and some others.

With all my professional knowledge and tens of years professional (now retired) and also hobby experience with lot of T&M equipment and this is real work, not "salesman" at all. Now I some times sell some equipment mostly Siglent and this is perhaps <1% of things wjhat I do. It do not mean any single things for m,e if someone buy Siglent or what ever. But also I can tell that if we talk oscilloscope as serious tool. Siglent SDS1004X-E series is far over Riglol DS1000Z series. There is no much competition in performance. But also as I have many many times told, it is not even fair to compare so different equipments. Like compare "light car" and car. Yes both have 4 wheels... and both we name "car". 
And then, Rigol come to markets far before these Siglent models and at this time if need cheap 4 channel entry levbel scope it really was amazing and together with hack it come really popular and with reasons. Even so amazing that one day I my self buy one for one project. Even today DS1054Z is  good selection specially if do not need more performance and need 4 channels and budget is limited to its price today. Good hobby scope for many use. But then, bit more money and get lot of more performance.

But then if we start do more serious oscilloscope work... then there come these Siglent models strong features. As example fast sequence acquistion (up to 100M memory), always backround running history (up to 100M memory), 2 chanels 1GSa/s because it have 2 ADC when Rigol have one. Much better true sensitivity. True full sample memory resolution measurements. Right working fully and free selectable post processing Sin(x)/x (important with some kind of signals when Sinc is not optimal.
Lot of better FFT.
Bode plot what beats all scopes in its price class as 10-1 (as also history and fast sequence)  If I start real cherry picking...  oh well I do not want even start this debate

Of course if use example 1 cannel alon Rigol have 24M.  THis is nearly double if compare Siglent.
Oh but I have many times heard that peoples need 4 channel scope...

If use 2 channel. With option active Rigol have 12 M for both channels. and 500MSa/s max. (without option, 6M)
Siglent have out from box if 2 channels in use  14M for both max and 1GSa/s for both max.

So is it more wise keep these main colums without full red or full green. Because in some use Siglent is out from box more than Rigol even with option and I have weighted in this thinking 4 channel use and not only available max alone in some use (1 channel use) And if you look, I have colored this Rigol light green (this case if option active). So, who and what is cherry picking. |O

Ok, lets think hack. Then Rigol 50MHz is 100MHz and Siglent 100MHz is 200MHz.

Then Siglent 500uV/div and Rigol 5mV/div if we look full vertical resolution.

How about Rigol salesmens 12 bit high resolution.
This is least partially lie. There is not any 12 bit resolution available. What ever mode use it is 8 biot and nothing more, after ADC and in acquisaition memory. There is no 12 bit. (very different if look example some Tektronix high resolution what also mean that there is higher resolution in memory... example 8bit normally and high res depending settings up to over 12 bit and it is in acquistiuon memory. They can tell high res mode have (example) 12 bit. (yes in some model memory width is doubled)

Still waiting 1GHz Siglent SDS5000X...



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It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Rigol DS1054Z or not?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2018, 12:04:24 am »
The DS1054Z has been massively popular thanks to the incredibly easy hack and consequent value for money. Saying you need to compare unhacked or locked versions makes no sense at all.

Suggesting such a hack would be illegal seems to be a bit of fearmongering.
 


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