Rigol DS1054Z rotary encoder mod *works!*

[Andrew8086]

Coincidentally I jsut replaced the encoder on my DS4014. Check the post in the other thread.

Info much appreciated, thank you.

[jjoonathan]

I just ordered one of those encoders for my 4014, thanks rsjsouza! The menu selector has been my #1 beef with it, can't wait to replace it.

While we're talking about control mods, does anyone know of a source for gray knobs with rubber overmolding like the ones Keysight ships on their newer scopes?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/WhAWwomKRaE/maxresdefault.jpg

http://www.newae.com/sidechannel/cwdocs/_images/scopeknob.jpg

http://www.alauda.ro/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/DSC_0029.jpg

I'm sure those particular knobs were custom ordered, but it's a little disappointing that I can't seem to find anything roughly comparable. Even "gray, no markings" seems to narrow the options down to ~0, nevermind the overmolding. Hopefully the problem is with my filter-fu and not the actual market supply, am I looking in the wrong place?

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/hardware-fasteners-accessories/knobs/

http://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Knobs-Dials/_/N-5g22/

[rsjsouza]

jjoonathan, I suspect that either Keysight or eBay will be your best bet. Being custom made, I couldn't find them even in a large supplier of knobs such as this one. This other one has some near misses.

[jjoonathan]

Sure enough, there's an ebay shop that sells exactly what I'm looking for, just not at a price I'm willing to pay. Ah well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Main-knob-for-Agilent-HP-Oscilloscope-86100A-86103B-86103A-86105A-86105B-86105C-/152093625388?hash=item23697c8c2c:g:RGAAAOxy4dNSsUhN

Thanks for those other two links. As you say, plenty of near misses.

[Fungus]

Sure enough, there's an ebay shop that sells exactly what I'm looking for, just not at a price I'm willing to pay.

You do get ten of them and I'm sure there's other ebayers who are looking to buy less than ten, so... see if you can figure out a way to get yours for free. 

[Jasper]

Actually, you get twenty. Ten of each size. But at 80 bucks including shipping for the lot, that's still nearly five bucks *per knob*.

[Fungus]

80 bucks including shipping for the lot

Oh... 

Send him a message and ask of they can be sent by ordinary post instead of Fedex. You never know.

that's still nearly five bucks *per knob*.

He offers combined shipping so you can get them cheaper (per knob) by buying multiple sets. 

[jjoonathan]

I asked him about alternative or combined shipping two days ago and he never got back. Ebay will ship 1 for $25, 2 for $45, 3 for $65... so the shipping discount makes the unit cost $75 instead of $80. Given the prices that other Hong Kong dealers manage to ship for, I bet he's pocketing most of that. Which is fine, but it really thins out the margins. Selling $1 encoders for $8 is an excellent business plan, selling $5 knobs for $8 carries a bit more risk if you can't match inventory to demand.

Time to see if Agilent directly sells "replacements."

[StormJunkie]

Just picked up a 1054z and would really like to do the encoder upgrade.  Does anyone know if all of the rotary encoders on the 1054Z are the same?  And any reason not to replace all 5 of them?  Thanks!

[ebastler]

Just picked up a 1054z and would really like to do the encoder upgrade.  Does anyone know if all of the rotary encoders on the 1054Z are the same?  And any reason not to replace all 5 of them?  Thanks!

The encoders behind the two large knobs (for horizontal and vertical scale) have detents already. The eoncoders for trigger level, horizontal and vertical position are only used for continuous adjustments, not for discrete selections -- so it does not make sense to use stepped encoders for these. Only the menu selection encoder benefits from replacing it with a stepped/detented version, IMO.

[StormJunkie]

Are the detents stronger/more solid on the ALPs enocders?    I'd prefer a more solid feel if they offer it...and if I'm going in any way, why not do them anyway.  I agree that replacing the trigger and position pots doesn't make much sense.  So I should have only asked if the menu select, horizontal, and vertical are the  same.

Thanks for the help!

[ebastler]

Are the detents stronger/more solid on the ALPs enocders?

They might indeed be a bit more pronounced on the ALPS encoder. But I can't say for sure, since I have never tried to swap large vs. small knobs: The larger knobs on the horizontal and vertical scale give you a bit more torque, and that will certainly contribute to making the detents feel softer.

I would say that the build quality of the stock encoders actually looks better than the recommended ALPS encoder: Metal body vs. plastic, and the axis feels a bit more precise (wobbles less if you wiggle it sideways). So I would leave the scale encoders unchanged. Coming from an old analog scope, I also thought that the scale knobs felt a bit too soft initially, but I got used to it very quickly. The detents are certainly strong enough to give you a clear haptic feedback on the steps.

[absps]

I am also planning to replace the encoder on my DS1054Z. Its behaviour is now completely erratic!

I first thought to use the "ALPS EC12E2424407" used by Howardlong (below, August 23, 2015) but, on mouser, the part is obsolete and, on Farnell, it gets two reviews, both bad (http://uk.farnell.com/alps/ec12e2424407/encoder-vertical-24-det-24ppr/dp/1520813).

I then tried to find the exact reference of the EC11 which worked for you. There are many choices and I am a bit lost... The best match I found with your description is the "ALPS EC11E15244G1", datasheet: http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/15/EC11-951851.pdf
http://www.mouser.tw/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=EC11E15244G1
The shaft is in metal and it seems more robust.

But I am a bit reluctant to buy it (especially because of the shipping cost) without being sure that it will work. Anyone has opinion and help me make my choice?

Thanks!

[Fungus]

Has anybody done a step by step guide to doing this?

How many screws do we need to remove, how hard is it to desolder, etc.

What's the chances of messing it up?

[cowana]

The EC12E2424407 which people have successully used is 24 detents, 24 pulses.

The EC11E15244G1 you suggest is 30 detent, 15 pulses. While 30 vs 24 is not an issue (menus will scroll through slightly faster), the detent:pulse ratio is - unless it is also 1:1, you'll need to turn the knob two clicks per change.

[tablatronix]

I wonder could you 3d print (might actually need laser cut or cnc for the size) a pressfit 2 piece notched slip ring to augment the physical knob, to get around the pesky void warranty issue.
I guess you could kludge an existing encoder detent ring onto the knob itself even...

edit:

indexing detent knobs, hmm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pc-Indexing-Detent-Knob-Electronic-Hardware-Corp-EHC-DTM70C2b-18-NEW-/142386536127?hash=item2126e61ebf:m:mCPV97_CzWa1DMxSOBfNDLw
https://www.google.ch/patents/US20050173232
http://www.ehcknobs.com/pdfs/catalog/InstrConsp43.pdf

[Howardlong]

Has anybody done a step by step guide to doing this?

How many screws do we need to remove, how hard is it to desolder, etc.

What's the chances of messing it up?

It's not particularly hard, but ISTR I found you need a pretty meaty iron to get the existing encoder off. Chances of messing up aren't high as long as your soldering skills are reasonable and you don't lose too many screws.

[rstofer]

Desoldering is where PCBs are destroyed.  I don't recall having any problem removing the encoder but I have a vacuum desoldering tool.  Where I usually get into trouble is using SolderWick.  Too much heat, traces lifting, etc.

I just looked up the datasheet and it seems that the pins are all exposed around the perimeter of the encoder.  Cut all the pins and the two mounting tabs, remove the body and then unsolder each pin one at a time.  Then clean up the through-holes and mount the new encoder.

I bought extras but I'll be darned if I can find them and, short of opening up the scope, I can't recall exactly how difficult the encoder was to remove.  What little I remember is that is was simple.

Work carefully and everything should work out fine.

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/15/EC11-951851.pdf

[absps]

Thank you Cowana!
I guess that I will stick with the EC12E2424407. I do not see any EC11 part with a 1:1 detent:pulse ratio.
The desoldering part is also making me nervous. I will follow the suggestion of rstofer to cut the pins and remove them one by one.

[klausES]

Hi there,

today I installed my ordered rotary encoder (Alps STEC12E08 24 impulses with 24 detents, which is already used by many) in the DS1054z (Mode to DS1104z).

First had to find out that the Rigol button / encoder board was changed.
All rotary encoders are now surface mounted. This means that there are no more holes.





Ok, modified the new Alps so that it was on the back plan, unsoldered the original and installed the Alps exactly positioned.



So far everything is ok, but the detents do not match the impulses.
Especially in longer menu lists, you notice that one menu point is often skipped per rest.

Could it be that in the last update the behavior on the encoder was changed so that this Alps is no longer read correctly?

[klausES]

I am trying to find out whether the encoder ordered does not exactly match the one mentioned here.

The ALPS EC12E2424407 often mentioned here differs from my ordered, if at all, only a little bit from the mechanical properties
and dimensions but it should be the same from the electrical side (I hope ...) 
It is an Alps STEC12E08 rotary encoder, 24 pulses / 24 detents, vertical.
Find only a very bad datasheet of this STEC12E08 ...

At the moment it is not quite sure whether I might have caught a defective encoder when ordering. 

As it is now, I cannot leave it. 50% of menu items can only be selected between two stop points ... 

[ebastler]

The two should really be the same encoder type. In the STEC08 datasheet, you will find the other model number right on the title page, under „model“.

[klausES]

And I already had doubts because the STEC12E08 is funny to buy only from a single dealer across the country
and this type does not even appear in the manufacturer list on the Alps website ... 
Not even Mouser or Farnell think of this type.

But why do I have the problem that two menu items are jumped per click? 
Unfortunately I had not tried the encoder with the older firmware.
Since the update to 04.04.04.03 I have not come back to the previous 00.04.04.04.02 to test the encoder.

[ebastler]

Hmm, my (old) DS1054Z is still at 04.04.04.02. Unless Rigol changed the way their firmware update works, you can't go back to an older firmware version unfortunately. Can anybody confirm that the .03 version (didn't realize it exists) also works with the detented encoder?

Of course Rigol could in principle also have transitioned to a different encoder for the latest PCB redesign, and/or flipped the connections to the two quadrature signals in their PCB layout. As you can see in the STEC08 datasheet, one of the quadrature phases is always stable at the detent position, while the other is "right on the edge" there. Maybe it's worth a try to swap the two connections to your replacement encoder (via short bodge wires between the part and the PCB), and see whether the encoder is better-behaved then?

[klausES]

Unfortunately I only bought one STEC12E08.
Otherwise, I could have quickly compared this type with the original from rigol.
(Don't want to stress the PCB with lots of soldering now).

I found this in the documentaries of these Alps encoders (see picture in the appendix).
According to this graphic, the correct parking position would not be given for the EC12 "E", but for the type EC12 "D"?!?