Rigol DS1054Z vs Siglent SDS1202X-E

[tautech]

For comparison,  SDS1202X-E goes for 379usd from saelig, and for 402usd in Europe from batronix. A roughly 6% markup. Go figure.

Don't forget to deduct the Saelig EEVblog members discount, ask for it in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/

[paul_ius]

Guys, what do you think about Micsig TO1074 in comparison to the Rigol and the Sig? At first I didn't consider it as a possible contender, but according to the reviews and opinions, TO1000 series seems to be quite good. Of course TO1074 has a bit lower bandwidth compared to the hacked Rigol, but is portable and much smaller. I sometimes play around with car electronics, so portability would be a bonus. Although, I'm not sure about the touchscreen, I prefer physical knobs and buttons, but it would probably be only a minor inconvenience.

Now TO1074+battery costs only 30 euros (excl. VAT) more than the Sig at Batronix.

[tautech]

Guys, what do you think about Micsig TO1074 in comparison to the Rigol and the Sig? At first I didn't consider it as a possible contender, but according to the reviews and opinions, TO1000 series seems to be quite good. Of course TO1074 has a bit lower bandwidth compared to the hacked Rigol, but is portable and much smaller. I sometimes play around with car electronics, so portability would be a bonus. Although, I'm not sure about the touchscreen, I prefer physical knobs and buttons, but it would probably be only a minor inconvenience.

Now TO1074+battery costs only 30 euros (excl. VAT) more than the Sig at Batronix.

A tablet has the advantage of isolation from mains ground but that's not generally an issue for auto work.
Maybe the best decode suite is more important for auto use.

[nctnico]

Guys, what do you think about Micsig TO1074 in comparison to the Rigol and the Sig? At first I didn't consider it as a possible contender, but according to the reviews and opinions, TO1000 series seems to be quite good. Of course TO1074 has a bit lower bandwidth compared to the hacked Rigol, but is portable and much smaller. I sometimes play around with car electronics, so portability would be a bonus. Although, I'm not sure about the touchscreen, I prefer physical knobs and buttons, but it would probably be only a minor inconvenience.

The touch screen works nicely IMHO even better than knobs. Portability and tablet form factor is nice for working on cars. From experience: using a scope on an extension cord in a car is a nuisance. OTOH the TO1074 can also be used on a desk using the stand.

[JPortici]

I'd go for the battery powered tablet too.
You don't always have an extension cord available.
Many new cars don't even come with the 12V cigarette lighter anymore so you can't plug in an inverter unless you tap into the battery
Less bulky.

Also, it's nice to have decoders but be sure it works for you

For example, i reviewed the manuals for some scopes that suggested they could only trigger on std id can frames... or that can frames were limited at 100 or 500 kbps. Decoder is there but it's useless
Or decoder is in software and wfm/s goes so low that you may miss the events you are looking for

PS: 1202X-E is being sold for 350 eur + VAT ar batterfly in italy

[exe]

Guys, what do you think about Micsig TO1074 in comparison to the Rigol and the Sig?

I just ordered TO1104 from aliexpress. I'll share my impression here once I receive it. But delivery may take a while...

[paul_ius]

I just ordered TO1104 from aliexpress. I'll share my impression here once I receive it. But delivery may take a while...

Thanks, that would be great.

Ability to work on a car without an extension cord is not a priority for me, just a bonus. Also I saw in another topic that decoding feature is already implemented in the beta firmware, so I guess it's coming soon in the official release. I'm just not sure if it's going to be available only on TO1104 or on all of them.

Also, I couldn't find anywhere if it's possible to upgrade the TO1074 version later on, does anyone know anything about that? I doubt that 1074 and 1104 have different hardware.

[exe]

Also, I couldn't find anywhere if it's possible to upgrade the TO1074 version later on, does anyone know anything about that? I doubt that 1074 and 1104 have different hardware.

Unfortunately, I didn't find any information about this (no tear downs of 1074 I'm aware of). The "common" opinion is that there is no known way to perform this upgrade (that's why I bought 1104). Although, I would ask MicSig support. But the only email I know is sales@micsig.com and it does not accept emails from me (but you can try). So far I only managed to communicate with MicSig only via chat in AliExpress.

I also quickly checked firmware file a few days ago, it looks to be encrypted . Damn, I really would like to put my dirty fingers into firmware (and may be fix some bugs, who knows ).

[Fungus]

I really would like to put my dirty fingers into firmware (and may be fix some bugs, who knows .

There's bugs? 

[exe]

There's bugs? 

Hope there is none. But people report, for example, touch buttons on the side could be more sensitive. This could be fixed by adjusting/calibrating touch panel in the Linux driver (assuming device runs Linux).

Anyway, nctnico says it's a decent device (for the price) for a beginner. So I hope to be satisfied  .

[Gandalf_Sr]

Call me a masochist if you want but I just ordered an SDS1202X-E from Saelig with the EEVBlog discount - it's a pretty good deal, no shipping and no taxes (due to the odd system in the USA).  I think it will make a good to-go scope rather than me ripping one of my good ones out of the test bench setup.

I hope that the updated software is released soon and that it fixes the triggering bugs.

[exe]

Well, my motivation to return the unit is that I don't want to support bad practice of releasing untested firmware and not fixing bugs for months. I'm pretty sure I would be able to survive with discovered problems, but I don't want to create a demand for semi-finished products.

Some bugs are really trivial to fix.  They don't even need to do a full-cycle testing, they could release new firmware as "beta" or "nightly build". It hurts to see such an old-fashioned approach with looong release cycles.

[boggis the cat]

Well, my motivation to return the unit is that I don't want to support bad practice of releasing untested firmware and not fixing bugs for months. I'm pretty sure I would be able to survive with discovered problems, but I don't want to create a demand for semi-finished products.

Stick to older products, then.  Today almost every product seems to be rushed out the door with software / firmware issues 'to be corrected later'.

Some bugs are really trivial to fix.  They don't even need to do a full-cycle testing, they could release new firmware as "beta" or "nightly build". It hurts to see such an old-fashioned approach with looong release cycles.

If they want to do QA on the firmware changes then that can be a long process.  This is what prevents a slew of quick patches -- along with issues that arise from customers not performing the update processes correctly.  What can be done doesn't always align with what you should do, from a commercial perspective.

(I still believe that opening up the firmware for end-of-life products to customers to tinker with could be valuable, if handled correctly.)

[ebastler]

I don't want to support bad practice of releasing untested firmware ...

... They don't even need to do a full-cycle testing, they could release new firmware as "beta" or "nightly build".
It hurts to see such an old-fashioned approach with looong release cycles.

Seems like you have not quite made up your mind whether you want to see more or less quality assurance and testing? 

[exe]

Seems like you have not quite made up your mind whether you want to see more or less quality assurance and testing? 

Yeah, I was imprecise in wording. I meant "buggy software with no demonstrable intention to fix it ASAP". No software is perfect, I get it (I'm a SW engineer, I also do my mistakes from time to time). But trivial problems affecting many users should be fixed promptly or users may turn away (also bad for reputation).

Is this possible in practice? Well, nctnico says GW Instek, for example, fixes simple problems in weeks or sometimes even days. That's how it should be.

[Fungus]

Yeah, I was imprecise in wording. I meant "buggy software with no demonstrable intention to fix it ASAP". No software is perfect, I get it (I'm a SW engineer, I also do my mistakes from time to time). But trivial problems affecting many users should be fixed promptly or users may turn away (also bad for reputation).

I get the feeling the bosses and marketers just fix a launch date and the poor programmers get all the blame when launch day arrives and it's not quite ready.

It's the way of the world.

Before you say "that's crap and they shouldn't do it!", remember exactly who it was that rushed out to buy one on launch day instead of using common sense. 

[boggis the cat]

Before you say "that's crap and they shouldn't do it!", remember exactly who it was that rushed out to buy one on launch day instead of using common sense. 

If nobody bought anything when it was released then most consumer items would be declared failures, and that would then become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Consider how many products such as mobile phones are released with buggy software and even hardware faults (or user-error in the form of not holding the device 'correctly' / failing to have a fire extinguisher handy).

There is a risk / reward tradeoff in buying something new that may have improvements, but also may turn out to be a lemon.  People can opt to choose an older, less risky, product: but some will prefer taking the risk.

[exe]

I get the feeling the bosses and marketers just fix a launch date and the poor programmers get all the blame when launch day arrives and it's not quite ready.

May be, but that's not my point . I'm just saying they had enough time to fix it.  I know what marketing pressure is, I work under pressure too .

I think Siglent just decided not to dedicate much resources to improve  firmware (since most people use the way it is now and few complaining). So it gets only bare minimum of developers' time. That's understandable (considering their cost margins), but I don't support such approach.

Considering the price, the only option I see to get any decent firmware is to share it with other scopes. But I don't know how feasible this is. Anyway, I don't pretend to be guru of marketing and engineering. May be I don't see the whole situation. Just sharing my thoughts.

[Gandalf_Sr]

@exe While you have every right to decide to send yours back, I think you are being a bit hasty with your decision.  I may be wrong but I believe that Siglent will fix the trigger issue within a month, probably less.  Even $10,000+ scopes from the big guys like Keysight have had firmware issues that that took a month to fix and God knows, I've waited and waited for things on Rigol scopes to be fixed.

I bought the SDS1202X-E because of the compelling value for money - just over $350 for a 200+ MHz scope (defpom's review shows it with a 350 MHz signal) with deep memory and serial decode/trigger built in for free.  It's also state of the art as far as technology is concerned; I recently did a design using the Zynq 7020 and that chip alone is $113 on Digikey, I would struggle to design the hardware for $350 in parts, never mind the write the firmware.

If I end up being disappointed, I'll apologize to you and send mine back.

[nctnico]

@exe While you have every right to decide to send yours back, I think you are being a bit hasty with your decision.  I may be wrong but I believe that Siglent will fix the trigger issue within a month, probably less.

Seeing is believing. I already have made the mistake to wait for Siglent to fix firmware but that ended up with having to buy a different scope + dumping the Siglent one into the bin.

[exe]

@exe While you have every right to decide to send yours back, I think you are being a bit hasty with your decision.

It's fine to disagree with me. We all different and have different needs. I hope your unit will serve you well.

I think sds1202x-e just put too much doubt in my head. But if you feel it's a good scope for you, why not? Especially now you have much more information than I had when I decided to purchase it. Maybe, if I had more realistic expectations I would keep it. I also have some professional bias.

Concerning frequencies, I found that 1) 1GS/s is just too low to see 100MHz+ signals (unless it's a perfect sine) 2) My environment is so noisy that 200MHz bandwidth creates problems, I see too much noise. So I mostly work with 20MHz BW limit enabled. I'm yet to learn how to work with higher frequencies (should start with removing long ground lead, I know ).

Anyway, congratulations with your new purchase!

[tautech]

@exe While you have every right to decide to send yours back, I think you are being a bit hasty with your decision.

It's fine to disagree with me. We all different and have different needs. I hope your unit will serve you well.

I think sds1202x-e just put too much doubt in my head. But if you feel it's a good scope for you, why not? Especially now you have much more information than I had when I decided to purchase it. Maybe, if I had more realistic expectations I would keep it. I also have some professional bias.

Yep, I fully understand that.

IMO you make valid points, I too am disappointed the X-E was not released with more mature FW. For those that've had DSO experience the bugs aren't so bad that they can't be worked around but for a smart scope novice they are apparent and disconcerting.
I have full faith that Siglent will release new FW soon, look at the timelines of FW that's been released for other products since the release of X-E.
http://siglentamerica.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=15

Of course this was 'work in progress' and shouldn't be put aside as owners of other equipment are waiting for FW tweaks too.
I nag the factory every week for X-E FW but as a SW engineer you know damn well that with a # of bugs the risk is that you create more bugs with the ones you fix. You also know the process of beta testing takes good time with further tweaks and further tests adding to delays.
That you couldn't wait is fine but in your profession I do find your lack of understanding ........... 

[exe]

That you couldn't wait is fine but in your profession I do find your lack of understanding ........... 

Well, programming has changed a lot last ten years . Now it's all about short release cycles, continuous integration, fully-automated testing, and code reviews. We work using agile methodologies (SCRUM). It's when big tasks are split into many small and delivered to production either ASAP (sometimes even a few minutes after code is approved and committed) or at the end of "sprint" at worst (which is no longer than 1month). After every sprint we do so-called "sprint retrospective" and discuss what went wrong and where to improve (also good chance to give management some feedback ). We do make mistakes, nobody is ideal. Just we recognize this and try to be better.

So, no, I don't understand people sticking to old and inefficient approaches .

[exe]

Also, I couldn't find anywhere if it's possible to upgrade the TO1074 version later on, does anyone know anything about that? I doubt that 1074 and 1104 have different hardware.

Well, it looks like it's possible at least in some cases to upgrade:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-tablet-oscilloscope-tbook-mini-to1000/?all

Damn, I wish I found this info yesterday

[Gandalf_Sr]

I own several pieces of Agilent/Keysight test gear, MSO7104B 1GHz 4-channel scope, N1996A CSA Spectrum Analyzer, 34461A 6.5 digit benchtop meter, 4433B ESG Sig Gene with a ton of options, ES8753 6GHz Network Analyzer, .  I have a Rigol 2072A scope and recently purchased a Siglent SPD3303X-E power supply that I'm very impressed with.

I write this not to brag but to point out that there is still room for low end stuff as long as you don't expect too much of it.  Yes, theoretically a scope with 'only' 1 Gsps is not up for a complicated non-sinusoidal 100 MHz waveform but the MSO7104B cost me around $9,000 and it's 'only' 4 Gsps.  The simple fact is that, most of my testing is done at 50 MHz or under and I don't really want to put a $9,000 scope in my car and leave it in the trunk while I go eat in a diner.

I'm just trying to explain that, for $350, I have limited expectations of the SPS1202X-E.  You get what you pay for!