Rigol DS1054Z/DS1000Z poll: are hacked options actually useful for you?

[rstofer]

I would like to know any serious bug on rigol, I use mine on a daily base on my work is done everyday, where are those bugs ? Are they relevant ?

It depends on what you mean by "serious".

Do you consider having a high RMS value measurement displayed on channels with zero inputs, even grounded, a serious bug which calls into question the accuracy of all reported RMS measurment values? I do -- but then again I do (or try to do) a lot of power measurements using my scope.

Do you consider having a horizontally displaced and misscaled Math trace at 500 ns/div a serious bug? I do. Again, the ability to make certain power measurements at particular frequencies is compromised by this bug. Fortunately it only happens at the 500 ns/div timescale-- as far as I can tell.

Do you consider having _all_ Measurements stop working at random times when Math and more than 2 channels are being used, requiring a power-cycle reboot, a serious bug? I sure do; in fact this one is a major buzzkill and Rigol USA reproduced it on their scopes immediately when I reported it to them months ago.

Do you consider having a Measurement displayed with a spelling error as "Pluses" instead of "Pulses" a serious bug? No, I don't consider this one "serious", since it does not affect usability, it is just laughable -- and demonstrates a rather shoddy quality assurance process at Rigol, for them to have released such an obvious and easy-to-correct typo in their code.

Or how about the fact that the FFT display resets its scale features when switching Mode from "Memory" to "Trace" or vice-versa? Serious, or just terminally annoying?
 

Other bugs that I don't consider serious are the sluggish response to vertical positioning controls, and the inability of _some_ users to push a knob-button without also turning it (the secret is in how you support your hand while pushing the button, it is easy to avoid this "bug" which has even caused some users to replace their rotary encoders altogether, LOL -- if this is a "bug" it is a bug in the user, not the scope). Or the "loud" fan which in my laboratory is not audible over all the rest of the equipment fans that are constantly running-- not a serious bug (feature) at all, but many people have replaced their fans with quieter ones. Or the slow saving of screenshots to USB flashdrives -- just wait, go get a beverage or something, it's not serious just annoying. (But the occasional strange failures in filename sequencing may be serious under some circumstances).

Let's assume the 'bugs' are never going to be fixed.  It is clear that the scope is inadequate for your needs, why are you still using it?  Sell it at a discount and buy the cheaper Instek with NO bugs.  It certainly seems like a win-win situation.  You probably break even on the cost or at most take a small loss and you wind up with a bug free scope!  I can assure you, ALL of the bugs will never be eliminated.  It's the nature of digital...  Some programming is required!

[rstofer]

I guess this one will have a little less bugs and better English


http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-x205209/infiniivision-4000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-32539.0&cc=US&lc=eng


Now the bug will appear on your pocket

And you can buy options!  For significant extra additional expense, you can probably get serial decode.  Wouldn't that be cool?

[Fungus]

I can assure you, ALL of the bugs will never be eliminated.

They got it all working except a couple of minor things but those things can never be fixed? Ever? 

It's the nature of digital...

But somehow that same 'nature' doesn't apply to GW Instek? 


Your logic makes me 

[wraper]

Do you consider having a high RMS value measurement displayed on channels with zero inputs, even grounded, a serious bug which calls into question the accuracy of all reported RMS measurment values?

Are the values on the channels with inputs correct? If so, it's not a serious bug, no. Most likely just a bug in the 'isAnythingConnected()" function.

Not at all. Just connect the channels to probe compensation input and check what RMS measurement is displaying (If you have latest SP2 firmware).

Sure the other one is big, ugly and a horrible recycled yellow/brown color. Yes, you'll have half the bandwidth, less RAM and no serial decoders. The font end's noisier because they used cheapo op-amps, the build quality's a bit lacking, the screen bezel is a bit, um, 'chunky' because they were cheap and used the case from a model with a bigger screen... but you'll totally avoid the deadly 500ns/div math bug when more than 2 channels are on!! It's sooooo worth it!!!

It's not yellow brown, actually color of the plastic itself is exactly like Rigol. Inputs are less noisy than 1054Z. Yeah, Crapxon in rigol's PSU and hard to find a main board which were not reworked at least somewhere, are certainly better than Japanese capacitors and cleanly soldered board in instek.

[ebastler]

Wraper, all -- while the poll is still open, I think it is time to admit that people do actually use and value the "free" options on their DS1000Z scopes. A lot. As of right now, 80% of the responses confirm that (34 out of the 43 who actually have one of these scopes).

Can we please acknowledge that, instead of drifting into the umpteenth "how bad are the bugs" discussion?

I think it is safe to assume that those who have bought the scope, and are regulars on this forum, did know what they were buying and had their reasons to buy.

[wraper]

Wraper, all -- while the poll is still open, I think it is time to admit that people do actually use and value the "free" options on their DS1000Z scopes. A lot. As of right now, 80% of the responses confirm that (34 out of the 43 who actually have one of these scopes).

What I need to admit? Who said people don't find they are useful (Have hacked DS2000 myself)? Poll is to show how important something is for certain amount of people.  Also it shows that significant amount of users have serious enough issues with it, that would give up the so valued options for "optionless" scope which works without problems.

[ebastler]

So in DS1054Z tread and earlier in other treads, there appeared a debate if people actually need/use hacked options in DS1000Z series scopes. Or if it is more like self delusion and people buy this model just because of the hackability and think they get a great deal while actually hacked options bear no real value in everyday use for them.

Maybe you could admit that Rigol users are not deluded? 

[Fungus]

It's not yellow brown, actually color of the plastic itself is exactly like Rigol.

Dave says otherwise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g#t=2m10s

Inputs are less noisy than 1054Z.

That certainly wasn't Dave's conclusion in the teardown....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g#t=31m20s

hard to find a main board which were not reworked at least somewhere

Rigol can't even solder?  LOL!

[wraper]

So far 7 % don't use hacks,  13.6 % have serious enough issues that would give up on the hacked options, 79.5% use those hacked options.

[rstofer]

I can assure you, ALL of the bugs will never be eliminated.

They got it all working except a couple of minor things but those things can never be fixed? Ever? 

First, the motivation declines as the bug list gets shorter and the bugs more obscure.  At some point development is over and it's time to move on to the next scope.

Second, it is the nature of large software projects that poking it in one place causes it to break in another place.  Kind of like pushing on a balloon.
The best Fortran programs were written after the box of cards was dropped on the floor.  It's just easier to start over.

Purportedly, the bug list is still extensive and serious.  I don't see why any advanced user would buy this thing when they could get a way better scope for a lot more money.

It's the nature of digital...

But somehow that same 'nature' doesn't apply to GW Instek? 


Your logic makes me 

It only applies to Instek if you believe that they are bug-free.  I don't...  But maybe they really are!  It's pretty easy to be bug-free if your software doesn't do anything.

[wraper]

That certainly wasn't Dave's conclusion in the teardown....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g#t=31m20s

I don't see there noise being higher than in Rigol. Then listen and read what Dave comments about this.

[alsetalokin4017]

Maybe if many other users who can duplicate this bug take the trouble to file bug reports to Rigol ..... some action will be taken.

Maybe if you told people how to "file bug reports to Rigol" it would be more productive than endless posting about it.

Seriously? Let me google that for you:

https://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/

 

[Fungus]

I don't see there noise being higher than in Rigol. Then listen and read what Dave comments about this.

Are you watching the wrong video? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g#t=38m40s

I'm guessing you didn't even watch it properly. You replied in less time than it takes to actually watch the video. 

[Fungus]

So far 7 % don't use hacks,  13.6 % have serious enough issues that would give up on the hacked options, 79.5% use those hacked options.

Thanks for reading the numbers on the screen to us. How would we ever manage without you?

PS: Now they've changed...

[wraper]

I don't see there noise being higher than in Rigol. Then listen and read what Dave comments about this.

Are you watching the wrong video? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g#t=38m40s

I'm guessing you didn't even watch it properly. You replied in less time than it takes to actually watch the video. 

I watched a few minutes, as your link includes the time, also I've seen that video before. Dave explicitly says that is not noise on the input, but how display engine works (sin(x)/x), out of 1 bit ADC reading change there appears such thing. Also if you set slower time scale, then of course waveform becomes thicker and there is nothing like that seen anymore. Now switch on your scope at similar settings and check how thin the waveform line is. But for real noise switch it on with 1 mV/div vertical scale and compare it with what is on the video at the same settings. As of the front panel color, Dave had white balance set wrong (probably auto). See how his "blue" ESD mat looks like.
About "cheap opamps", TLV274 in Rigol has 2X more of input noise voltage compared to TL074A in instek.

[wraper]

So far 7 % don't use hacks,  13.6 % have serious enough issues that would give up on the hacked options, 79.5% use those hacked options.

Thanks for reading the numbers on the screen to us. How would we ever manage without you?

PS: Now they've changed...

Well, then use your own calculator, because those figures obviously are distorted by want see results option.

[Fungus]

Thanks for reading the numbers on the screen to us. How would we ever manage without you?

PS: Now they've changed...

Well, then use your own calculator, because those figures obviously are distorted by want see results option.

Whoosh!

[wraper]

IMO you take this poll too close to your heart. You were who suggested it after all.

[ebastler]

IMO you take this poll too close to your heart.

Just re-read your opening post in this thread again, and even you might realize why some people here get annoyed with you.
Very professional attitude; congrats.

You were who suggested it after all.

Talking to yourself here?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/2332/, scroll down to reply #2332. (Sorry, don't know how to link to it directly.)

[wraper]

Talking to yourself here?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/2332/, scroll down to reply #2332. (Sorry, don't know how to link to it directly.)

Then read my post again, there was a qoute in it BTW 
Reply #2331:

We could do a survey if you want, but... I'll bet that nobody here bought their DS1054Z thinking they were getting a 50MHz 'scope with basic triggering, 12Mb RAM no serial decoders.

And when that wish came true... shit throwing started.

[ebastler]

Got me there, I stand corrected.
The survey suggestion was Fungus', but the attitude is all yours.
I'm out of here, cheers.

[wraper]

Rigol can't even solder?  LOL!

Example from my first DM3068. Shunt resistor and two ICs reworked, 2 wires soldered in parallel to existing tracks  . One of those IC is where leakage current matters a lot and guard tracks all around, but all of those were covered with a bunch of flux residue from the rework. That meter failed within a week with a strange issue. IMO it was defective from factory but they done something and it kind of gone away. Replacement meter took hell a lot of time and effort to get (Response was "we see the defect but we think it is kinda within spec although our own DM3068 don't experience anything like that"). Filthy used replacement (didn't care much about that fact anymore) which I got in the end, don't have those bodge wires although PCB revision is the same and manufactured at almost same time. Other Rigol equipment usually is not so extreme but very often there will be a few SMD parts reworked.

[CustomEngineerer]

Found this comment from the video rather funny.

gw instek is garbage. Got an "expensive" model back in 2008 full of bugs, 2 channels dont work most of the time., usb storage doesnt work, gnd level change when you cange ranges, tons of noise (more than other digital scopes) below 20mV range ... GARBAGE. And it was 4 chan 2Gs 200Mhz. The next time we bought a Tek, leason learned.?

Realize this is old, but all companies have their issues.

[System Error Message]

:O i bought GW instek i hope its not noisy or buggy.

[bitseeker]

If it is, you can start a new thread about it. Otherwise, enjoy it!