Rigol DS1054Z/DS1000Z poll: are hacked options actually useful for you?

[wraper]

So in DS1054Z tread and earlier in other treads, there appeared a debate if people actually need/use hacked options in DS1000Z series scopes. Or if it is more like self delusion and people buy this model just because of the hackability and think they get a great deal while actually hacked options bear no real value in everyday use for them. DS1000Z also have some few serious and many minor bugs which don't get fixed in timely manner and new bugs introduced in the new firmware too (like broken RMS measurement in the latest firmware which is there for ~6 months and no fix/downgrade possible). This debate was raised because not so long tome ago appeared very interesting GDS-1054Z from GW instek which overall appears to be better in almost every way (faster waveform update rate, 1 mpts FFT, better advanced math, better analog spec and so on) and a little bit cheaper too. Also overall interesting and affordable whole GDS-1000B, GDS2000E series (more expensive, but decoding is out of the box). Absence of serious bugs makes them very attractive to. However people still insist you must get DS1054Z because it is HACKABLE and it is where the true value lies. So are those hackable options as good in your everyday use as people talk about, you decide.

P.S. This poll is about if you actually use what those hacked options offer. Not about if you like the fact of hackability.

[Fungus]

You need over 50Mhz to see a 10Mhz square wave with any sort of squareness, so... 

[wraper]

You need over 50Mhz to see a 10Mhz square wave with any sort of squareness, so... 

The question is do you always need that complete squareness? Also I doubt any of Arduino tinkerers can see any square wave of such frequency, maximum they will check is crystal oscillation (sine). Other MCU peripherals usually run at much slower speeds either. Also nctnico used serial decoding on GDS2204E on SPI bus with 125 MHz clock without an issue, although it looked more like sine wave.

[Fungus]

You need over 50Mhz to see a 10Mhz square wave with any sort of squareness, so... 

The question is do you always need that complete squareness? Also I doubt any of Arduino tinkerers can see any square wave of such frequency...

Maybe, maybe not. Seeing a sine wave instead of a square wave is disconcerting to a newbie though.

PS: I bet 'Arduino tinkerers' do like having serial decoders and they probably don't care much about FFTs or simultaneous RMS voltage readings across multiple channels.

[CustomEngineerer]

How come the MEM-DS1000Z (increased memory) and REC-DS1000Z (Real Time Waveform Record and Replay) options aren't listed in the voting options?

Edit: Not trying to suggest you need more voting options. The options really should just be, "I have a DS1000Z but haven't hacked. I've hacked it but get no use out of it. I've hacked it and use the options all the time."

Don't really see the point in splitting up the ones that have hacked it and gotten use out of it other than to make the other 2 options seem like a bigger percent.

Edit 2: Not voting as I don't have a DS1000Z, though do have DS2072A.

[ebclr]

Sooner we will understand , I beat the point is to blame Rigol

[wraper]

How come the MEM-DS1000Z (increased memory) and REC-DS1000Z (Real Time Waveform Record and Replay) options aren't listed in the voting options?

Edit: Not trying to suggest you need more voting options. The options really should just be, "I have a DS1000Z but haven't hacked. I've hacked it but get no use out of it. I've hacked it and use the options all the time."

added REC and MEM to the first voting option.

Edit 2: Not voting as I don't have a DS1000Z, though do have DS2072A.

This poll is for bottom of the end model. I have hacked DS2072 myself. The point of this poll is if those hacked options are so important as alternatives don't have them. On the other hand, alternatives in DS2000A price range have those out of the box and don't need any hacking or purchasing. Well, now I myself have bit better idea what I should have written as voting options, but don't want to break it and start voting again.

Don't really see the point in splitting up the ones that have hacked it and gotten use out of it other than to make the other 2 options seem like a bigger percent.

That is to see how important the bandwidth is, as it is the only difference between the differently priced models in the series.

[ataradov]

I do use memory size and triggers.

I don't care about FFT, since I can dump lots of data (see memory size) to my computer and do analysis with real tools.

[ebastler]

You forgot the "Hacked or not, my GW Instek is better anyway" option. 
Geez, where re we -- kindergarten?

[tautech]

You forgot the "Hacked or not, my GW Instek is better anyway" option. 
Geez, where re we -- kindergarten?

Yep, kindergarten where we start to learn to read.
Have DS1000Z series scope but didn't hack it

Of course I'm one of the nosy ones that just want to see the poll results, BTW wraper thanks for adding that option to the poll. 

[ebastler]

You forgot the "Hacked or not, my GW Instek is better anyway" option. 
Geez, where re we -- kindergarten?

Yep, kindergarten where we start to learn to read.
Have DS1000Z series scope but didn't hack it

Huh? I don't think you got my drift there...

[tautech]

You forgot the "Hacked or not, my GW Instek is better anyway" option. 
Geez, where re we -- kindergarten?

Yep, kindergarten where we start to learn to read.
Have DS1000Z series scope but didn't hack it

Huh? I don't think you got my drift there...

I didn't and sorry for any offence, none was intended. 

[Fungus]

You forgot the "Hacked or not, my GW Instek is better anyway" option. 
Geez, where re we -- kindergarten?

The "Hacked my scope but would rather trade hacked options for absence of bugs and better specs" option is wide open to interpretation as well. What exactly are "better specs"?

If the poll is really about bugs vs. hacks then the option should be: "Hacked my scope but would rather trade the upgrades for absence of bugs".

(And how severe are the bugs, really? If a bug takes 6 months for the first person to notice it then how should we rate it...?  )

[wraper]

And how severe are the bugs, really? If a bug takes 6 months for the first person to notice it then how should we rate it...?  )

This is not true and you know it.

[wraper]

Edited not hacked option. Now you can vote for that also if you don't use what hack offers but also don't want to vote for option above it and think it's still the best scope for the price even without a hack.

[ebclr]

I would like to know any serious bug on rigol, I use mine on a daily base on my work is done everyday, where are those bugs ? Are they relevant ?

[Fungus]

And how severe are the bugs, really? If a bug takes 6 months for the first person to notice it then how should we rate it...?  )

This is not true and you know it.

The deadly serious "RMS" bug was first reported in early March: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-issue/

The firmware responsible for it was released in early November.

Ok, that's only 5 months, not 6. You win.

[wraper]

Ok, that's only 5 months, not 6. You win.

That also means they didn't fix any of the newly introduced problems with that firmware for 11 months. I thought it was a bit newer.

[ebclr]

This bug is totally irrelevant on a scope far away to be serius

[alsetalokin4017]

I would like to know any serious bug on rigol, I use mine on a daily base on my work is done everyday, where are those bugs ? Are they relevant ?

It depends on what you mean by "serious".

Do you consider having a high RMS value measurement displayed on channels with zero inputs, even grounded, a serious bug which calls into question the accuracy of all reported RMS measurment values? I do -- but then again I do (or try to do) a lot of power measurements using my scope.

Do you consider having a horizontally displaced and misscaled Math trace at 500 ns/div a serious bug? I do. Again, the ability to make certain power measurements at particular frequencies is compromised by this bug. Fortunately it only happens at the 500 ns/div timescale-- as far as I can tell.

Do you consider having _all_ Measurements stop working at random times when Math and more than 2 channels are being used, requiring a power-cycle reboot, a serious bug? I sure do; in fact this one is a major buzzkill and Rigol USA reproduced it on their scopes immediately when I reported it to them months ago.

Do you consider having a Measurement displayed with a spelling error as "Pluses" instead of "Pulses" a serious bug? No, I don't consider this one "serious", since it does not affect usability, it is just laughable -- and demonstrates a rather shoddy quality assurance process at Rigol, for them to have released such an obvious and easy-to-correct typo in their code.

Or how about the fact that the FFT display resets its scale features when switching Mode from "Memory" to "Trace" or vice-versa? Serious, or just terminally annoying?
 

Other bugs that I don't consider serious are the sluggish response to vertical positioning controls, and the inability of _some_ users to push a knob-button without also turning it (the secret is in how you support your hand while pushing the button, it is easy to avoid this "bug" which has even caused some users to replace their rotary encoders altogether, LOL -- if this is a "bug" it is a bug in the user, not the scope). Or the "loud" fan which in my laboratory is not audible over all the rest of the equipment fans that are constantly running-- not a serious bug (feature) at all, but many people have replaced their fans with quieter ones. Or the slow saving of screenshots to USB flashdrives -- just wait, go get a beverage or something, it's not serious just annoying. (But the occasional strange failures in filename sequencing may be serious under some circumstances).

[Fungus]

Do you consider having _all_ Measurements stop working at random times when Math and more than 2 channels are being used, requiring a power-cycle reboot, a serious bug? I sure do; in fact this one is a major buzzkill and Rigol USA reproduced it on their scopes immediately when I reported it to them months ago.

Maybe you should chase that one up. See if they're fixing it. 

[alsetalokin4017]

This bug is totally irrelevant on a scope far away to be serius

It may be irrelevant to you, but it has caused at least one DS1054z purchaser to regret his purchase and to seek to return his scope and get a different brand.

It's not irrelevant to me either, but I'm not going to return my scope over it. I fervently hope that Rigol will get on the ball and fix this and the other serious bugs in the next firmware update.


Oh, yes, I forgot one "feature". It is not possible to roll back to an earlier firmware version once you have installed a later one, by any process that I am aware of. This is just stupid, IMHO, and is very serious, since it is clear that firmware updates can introduce new bugs that may not be acceptable to some users.

[alsetalokin4017]

Do you consider having _all_ Measurements stop working at random times when Math and more than 2 channels are being used, requiring a power-cycle reboot, a serious bug? I sure do; in fact this one is a major buzzkill and Rigol USA reproduced it on their scopes immediately when I reported it to them months ago.

Maybe you should chase that one up. See if they're fixing it. 

Maybe if many other users who can duplicate this bug take the trouble to file bug reports to Rigol ..... some action will be taken.

Or maybe it's just too hard for Rigol to fix all these issues and they've simply given up, having already saturated the low-end DSO market with the DS1054z. After all... many users of the scope find nothing wrong with it, since their use of the scope is so basic that they never encounter the bugs.



BTW-- I voted this option in the Poll:

Measure more than 50 MHz + use serial decoding/advanced triggers, REC, MEM in the real world scenario

Measurement of fast rise/falltime pulses, advanced trigger options, REC and deeper memory used often. Serial decoding, not yet but will be doing so in the future.

[ebclr]

I guess this one will have a little less bugs and better English


http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-x205209/infiniivision-4000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-32539.0&cc=US&lc=eng


Now the bug will appear on your pocket

[Fungus]

Maybe if many other users who can duplicate this bug take the trouble to file bug reports to Rigol ..... some action will be taken.

Maybe if you told people how to "file bug reports to Rigol" it would be more productive than endless posting about it.

Or maybe it's just too hard for Rigol to fix all these issues and they've simply given up, having already saturated the low-end DSO market with the DS1054z.

I'm not sure what's going on.

If I had to guess? I'd say the lead programmer at the DS1054Z division has left the company and his replacement is a prime candidate for TDWTF.

Somebody at Rigol really needs to pull their finger out.

After all... many users of the scope find nothing wrong with it, since their use of the scope is so basic that they never encounter the bugs.

That's certainly true

(...but not because they're idiots or anything, it's just that 99.9% of real life 'scope use is basic. It's triggering, it's looking at wiggly lines on screen - both of which the DS1054Z does admirably well)

Do you consider having a high RMS value measurement displayed on channels with zero inputs, even grounded, a serious bug which calls into question the accuracy of all reported RMS measurment values?

Are the values on the channels with inputs correct? If so, it's not a serious bug, no. Most likely just a bug in the 'isAnythingConnected()" function.

Turn those channels off and the bug vanishes!

Do you consider having a horizontally displaced and misscaled Math trace at 500 ns/div a serious bug? I do. Again, the ability to make certain power measurements at particular frequencies is compromised by this bug. Fortunately it only happens at the 500 ns/div timescale-- as far as I can tell.

Do you consider having _all_ Measurements stop working at random times when Math and more than 2 channels are being used, requiring a power-cycle reboot, a serious bug? I sure do; in fact this one is a major buzzkill and Rigol USA reproduced it on their scopes immediately when I reported it to them months ago.

Math needs fixing, we agree on that.

OTOH what's a good response to every newbie who posts here asking if the DS1054Z is worth buying? Is it:

a) Do you need to apply math functions on multiple channels at 500ns/div? Is that a critical function to you? If so, the DS1054Z has a known issue.

Or is it:

b) OMG!!! The DS1054Z is totally bugridden!!! Don't even think of buying one, buy one of these instead. Sure the other one is big, ugly and a horrible recycled yellow/brown color. Yes, you'll have half the bandwidth, less RAM and no serial decoders. The font end's noisier because they used cheapo op-amps, the build quality's a bit lacking, the screen bezel is a bit, um, 'chunky' because they were cheap and used the case from a model with a bigger screen... but you'll totally avoid the deadly 500ns/div math bug when more than 2 channels are on!! It's sooooo worth it!!!

Do you consider having a Measurement displayed with a spelling error as "Pluses" instead of "Pulses" a serious bug?

No. Stuff like that slips through sometimes.

Or how about the fact that the FFT display resets its scale features when switching Mode from "Memory" to "Trace" or vice-versa? Serious, or just terminally annoying?

Annoying.

the inability of _some_ users to push a knob-button without also turning it (the secret is in how you support your hand while pushing the button, it is easy to avoid this "bug" which has even caused some users to replace their rotary encoders altogether

User interface is my specialty, things like that dismay me. 

(yes... I do have complaints about Rigols, but none of them are to do with bugs)

There's definitely a crapness and general lack of thought in parts of the DS1054Z user interface and some things that just don't make any sense at all (like the duplication of the trigger mode settings - what a total waste of panel space and LEDs that is).

Lots of other devices do it the same way though. It seems to be an industry standard crapness, not something Rigol invented.

Yes, I've posted some very simple suggestions that would improve the UI immensely. If Rigol wants to talk? I'm happy to help out.

[rstofer]

I would like to know any serious bug on rigol, I use mine on a daily base on my work is done everyday, where are those bugs ? Are they relevant ?

It depends on what you mean by "serious".

Do you consider having a high RMS value measurement displayed on channels with zero inputs, even grounded, a serious bug which calls into question the accuracy of all reported RMS measurment values? I do -- but then again I do (or try to do) a lot of power measurements using my scope.

Do you consider having a horizontally displaced and misscaled Math trace at 500 ns/div a serious bug? I do. Again, the ability to make certain power measurements at particular frequencies is compromised by this bug. Fortunately it only happens at the 500 ns/div timescale-- as far as I can tell.

Do you consider having _all_ Measurements stop working at random times when Math and more than 2 channels are being used, requiring a power-cycle reboot, a serious bug? I sure do; in fact this one is a major buzzkill and Rigol USA reproduced it on their scopes immediately when I reported it to them months ago.

Do you consider having a Measurement displayed with a spelling error as "Pluses" instead of "Pulses" a serious bug? No, I don't consider this one "serious", since it does not affect usability, it is just laughable -- and demonstrates a rather shoddy quality assurance process at Rigol, for them to have released such an obvious and easy-to-correct typo in their code.

Or how about the fact that the FFT display resets its scale features when switching Mode from "Memory" to "Trace" or vice-versa? Serious, or just terminally annoying?
 

Other bugs that I don't consider serious are the sluggish response to vertical positioning controls, and the inability of _some_ users to push a knob-button without also turning it (the secret is in how you support your hand while pushing the button, it is easy to avoid this "bug" which has even caused some users to replace their rotary encoders altogether, LOL -- if this is a "bug" it is a bug in the user, not the scope). Or the "loud" fan which in my laboratory is not audible over all the rest of the equipment fans that are constantly running-- not a serious bug (feature) at all, but many people have replaced their fans with quieter ones. Or the slow saving of screenshots to USB flashdrives -- just wait, go get a beverage or something, it's not serious just annoying. (But the occasional strange failures in filename sequencing may be serious under some circumstances).

Let's assume the 'bugs' are never going to be fixed.  It is clear that the scope is inadequate for your needs, why are you still using it?  Sell it at a discount and buy the cheaper Instek with NO bugs.  It certainly seems like a win-win situation.  You probably break even on the cost or at most take a small loss and you wind up with a bug free scope!  I can assure you, ALL of the bugs will never be eliminated.  It's the nature of digital...  Some programming is required!

[rstofer]

I guess this one will have a little less bugs and better English


http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-x205209/infiniivision-4000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-32539.0&cc=US&lc=eng


Now the bug will appear on your pocket

And you can buy options!  For significant extra additional expense, you can probably get serial decode.  Wouldn't that be cool?

[Fungus]

I can assure you, ALL of the bugs will never be eliminated.

They got it all working except a couple of minor things but those things can never be fixed? Ever? 

It's the nature of digital...

But somehow that same 'nature' doesn't apply to GW Instek? 


Your logic makes me 

[wraper]

Do you consider having a high RMS value measurement displayed on channels with zero inputs, even grounded, a serious bug which calls into question the accuracy of all reported RMS measurment values?

Are the values on the channels with inputs correct? If so, it's not a serious bug, no. Most likely just a bug in the 'isAnythingConnected()" function.

Not at all. Just connect the channels to probe compensation input and check what RMS measurement is displaying (If you have latest SP2 firmware).

Sure the other one is big, ugly and a horrible recycled yellow/brown color. Yes, you'll have half the bandwidth, less RAM and no serial decoders. The font end's noisier because they used cheapo op-amps, the build quality's a bit lacking, the screen bezel is a bit, um, 'chunky' because they were cheap and used the case from a model with a bigger screen... but you'll totally avoid the deadly 500ns/div math bug when more than 2 channels are on!! It's sooooo worth it!!!

It's not yellow brown, actually color of the plastic itself is exactly like Rigol. Inputs are less noisy than 1054Z. Yeah, Crapxon in rigol's PSU and hard to find a main board which were not reworked at least somewhere, are certainly better than Japanese capacitors and cleanly soldered board in instek.

[ebastler]

Wraper, all -- while the poll is still open, I think it is time to admit that people do actually use and value the "free" options on their DS1000Z scopes. A lot. As of right now, 80% of the responses confirm that (34 out of the 43 who actually have one of these scopes).

Can we please acknowledge that, instead of drifting into the umpteenth "how bad are the bugs" discussion?

I think it is safe to assume that those who have bought the scope, and are regulars on this forum, did know what they were buying and had their reasons to buy.

[wraper]

Wraper, all -- while the poll is still open, I think it is time to admit that people do actually use and value the "free" options on their DS1000Z scopes. A lot. As of right now, 80% of the responses confirm that (34 out of the 43 who actually have one of these scopes).

What I need to admit? Who said people don't find they are useful (Have hacked DS2000 myself)? Poll is to show how important something is for certain amount of people.  Also it shows that significant amount of users have serious enough issues with it, that would give up the so valued options for "optionless" scope which works without problems.

[ebastler]

So in DS1054Z tread and earlier in other treads, there appeared a debate if people actually need/use hacked options in DS1000Z series scopes. Or if it is more like self delusion and people buy this model just because of the hackability and think they get a great deal while actually hacked options bear no real value in everyday use for them.

Maybe you could admit that Rigol users are not deluded? 

[Fungus]

It's not yellow brown, actually color of the plastic itself is exactly like Rigol.

Dave says otherwise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g#t=2m10s

Inputs are less noisy than 1054Z.

That certainly wasn't Dave's conclusion in the teardown....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g#t=31m20s

hard to find a main board which were not reworked at least somewhere

Rigol can't even solder?  LOL!

[wraper]

So far 7 % don't use hacks,  13.6 % have serious enough issues that would give up on the hacked options, 79.5% use those hacked options.

[rstofer]

I can assure you, ALL of the bugs will never be eliminated.

They got it all working except a couple of minor things but those things can never be fixed? Ever? 

First, the motivation declines as the bug list gets shorter and the bugs more obscure.  At some point development is over and it's time to move on to the next scope.

Second, it is the nature of large software projects that poking it in one place causes it to break in another place.  Kind of like pushing on a balloon.
The best Fortran programs were written after the box of cards was dropped on the floor.  It's just easier to start over.

Purportedly, the bug list is still extensive and serious.  I don't see why any advanced user would buy this thing when they could get a way better scope for a lot more money.

It's the nature of digital...

But somehow that same 'nature' doesn't apply to GW Instek? 


Your logic makes me 

It only applies to Instek if you believe that they are bug-free.  I don't...  But maybe they really are!  It's pretty easy to be bug-free if your software doesn't do anything.

[wraper]

That certainly wasn't Dave's conclusion in the teardown....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g#t=31m20s

I don't see there noise being higher than in Rigol. Then listen and read what Dave comments about this.

[alsetalokin4017]

Maybe if many other users who can duplicate this bug take the trouble to file bug reports to Rigol ..... some action will be taken.

Maybe if you told people how to "file bug reports to Rigol" it would be more productive than endless posting about it.

Seriously? Let me google that for you:

https://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/

 

[Fungus]

I don't see there noise being higher than in Rigol. Then listen and read what Dave comments about this.

Are you watching the wrong video? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g#t=38m40s

I'm guessing you didn't even watch it properly. You replied in less time than it takes to actually watch the video. 

[Fungus]

So far 7 % don't use hacks,  13.6 % have serious enough issues that would give up on the hacked options, 79.5% use those hacked options.

Thanks for reading the numbers on the screen to us. How would we ever manage without you?

PS: Now they've changed...

[wraper]

I don't see there noise being higher than in Rigol. Then listen and read what Dave comments about this.

Are you watching the wrong video? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g#t=38m40s

I'm guessing you didn't even watch it properly. You replied in less time than it takes to actually watch the video. 

I watched a few minutes, as your link includes the time, also I've seen that video before. Dave explicitly says that is not noise on the input, but how display engine works (sin(x)/x), out of 1 bit ADC reading change there appears such thing. Also if you set slower time scale, then of course waveform becomes thicker and there is nothing like that seen anymore. Now switch on your scope at similar settings and check how thin the waveform line is. But for real noise switch it on with 1 mV/div vertical scale and compare it with what is on the video at the same settings. As of the front panel color, Dave had white balance set wrong (probably auto). See how his "blue" ESD mat looks like.
About "cheap opamps", TLV274 in Rigol has 2X more of input noise voltage compared to TL074A in instek.

[wraper]

So far 7 % don't use hacks,  13.6 % have serious enough issues that would give up on the hacked options, 79.5% use those hacked options.

Thanks for reading the numbers on the screen to us. How would we ever manage without you?

PS: Now they've changed...

Well, then use your own calculator, because those figures obviously are distorted by want see results option.

[Fungus]

Thanks for reading the numbers on the screen to us. How would we ever manage without you?

PS: Now they've changed...

Well, then use your own calculator, because those figures obviously are distorted by want see results option.

Whoosh!

[wraper]

IMO you take this poll too close to your heart. You were who suggested it after all.

[ebastler]

IMO you take this poll too close to your heart.

Just re-read your opening post in this thread again, and even you might realize why some people here get annoyed with you.
Very professional attitude; congrats.

You were who suggested it after all.

Talking to yourself here?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/2332/, scroll down to reply #2332. (Sorry, don't know how to link to it directly.)

[wraper]

Talking to yourself here?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/2332/, scroll down to reply #2332. (Sorry, don't know how to link to it directly.)

Then read my post again, there was a qoute in it BTW 
Reply #2331:

We could do a survey if you want, but... I'll bet that nobody here bought their DS1054Z thinking they were getting a 50MHz 'scope with basic triggering, 12Mb RAM no serial decoders.

And when that wish came true... shit throwing started.

[ebastler]

Got me there, I stand corrected.
The survey suggestion was Fungus', but the attitude is all yours.
I'm out of here, cheers.

[wraper]

Rigol can't even solder?  LOL!

Example from my first DM3068. Shunt resistor and two ICs reworked, 2 wires soldered in parallel to existing tracks  . One of those IC is where leakage current matters a lot and guard tracks all around, but all of those were covered with a bunch of flux residue from the rework. That meter failed within a week with a strange issue. IMO it was defective from factory but they done something and it kind of gone away. Replacement meter took hell a lot of time and effort to get (Response was "we see the defect but we think it is kinda within spec although our own DM3068 don't experience anything like that"). Filthy used replacement (didn't care much about that fact anymore) which I got in the end, don't have those bodge wires although PCB revision is the same and manufactured at almost same time. Other Rigol equipment usually is not so extreme but very often there will be a few SMD parts reworked.

[CustomEngineerer]

Found this comment from the video rather funny.

gw instek is garbage. Got an "expensive" model back in 2008 full of bugs, 2 channels dont work most of the time., usb storage doesnt work, gnd level change when you cange ranges, tons of noise (more than other digital scopes) below 20mV range ... GARBAGE. And it was 4 chan 2Gs 200Mhz. The next time we bought a Tek, leason learned.?

Realize this is old, but all companies have their issues.

[System Error Message]

:O i bought GW instek i hope its not noisy or buggy.

[bitseeker]

If it is, you can start a new thread about it. Otherwise, enjoy it!

[Fungus]

I watched a few minutes, as your link includes the time, also I've seen that video before. Dave explicitly says that is not noise on the input, but how display engine works (sin(x)/x), out of 1 bit ADC reading change there appears such thing.

There's a perfect periodic glitch on the display engine on all 4 channels?

That doesn't sound like the sort of thing I'd want in an oscilloscope. If it was Rigol you'd be screaming "bug!!!"

[ProBang2]

The glitch obviously happens with 250 MHz ==> Samplerate.

Not very impressive...   

[wraper]

There's a perfect periodic glitch on the display engine on all 4 channels?

That doesn't sound like the sort of thing I'd want in an oscilloscope. If it was Rigol you'd be screaming "bug!!!"

It's not a glitch. There is a one sampling point (dot of the screen) per each of that so called "glitch". It how sin(x)/x works. You can perfectly see that if set it to the dot mode (and what Dave does later).

[wraper]

So how this screenshot from DS2000 is a lower noise or a tiny bit better? What we can see here is that no sin(x)/x happens at the display stage (can be seen when zooming in already captured waveform) unlike in GDS-1000B, don't forget that sampling frequency here is higher too.

[ebclr]

For those guys that want to see a perfect rms value on a 8 bit scope, I would like to inform that have a revolutionary measure instrument called multi-meter who work better than a scope to do that like  the fluke 87V.

I use the scope basically to see voltage x time, in real word usage the shape and timing are the keys points on a scope, specially on very low priced scopes.

Id somebody buy very low price scope to use in a metrological lab as a standard, it's clear that that this guy brain isn't fully populated by neurons cells

I use the Rigol scope totally successful for service and development on microprocessor and FPGA, and I did even know that they can display rms value, since i never needed that , because i would prefer to user a multimeter to make this kind of measure ( 100 Kzs max ).

It's amazing that the same one that point a rms measure as a "supposed serious bug" don't care about double the bandwidth, who will help in better better measures on rise / fall time. Serial decoding for "free"

For sure Rigol isn't a Keisight Tecktronics or Lecroy, but they give you all you can expect from a Chinese product, with the basics working and a lot of little bugs and hugly internal construction, same as any Chinese toy, camera , chair etc

If you wanna product's with fine details buy swiss products and Paid the tag for that, dont buy Chinese price and ask European quality this is not reality

[Fungus]

So how this screenshot from DS2000 is a lower noise or a tiny bit better?

Ummm....it's noise, honest noise. We expect that in an instrument.

The GW-Instek stuff isn't 'noise' at all, it's a perfectly regular and repeating glitch. On all 4 channels.



Most people would call that a 'problem', not noise.

[wraper]

So how this screenshot from DS2000 is a lower noise or a tiny bit better?

Ummm....it's noise, honest noise. We expect that in an instrument.

The GW-Instek stuff isn't 'noise' at all, it's a perfectly regular and repeating glitch. On all 4 channels.

I't not a glitch. Watch the video when Dave zooms in what it is. There is a sampling point in the center of each of those. It's how sin(x)x function displays a waveform.

[Fungus]

It's how sin(x)x function displays a waveform.

Yes, we understand that perfectly. No need to keep repeating it, thanks.

The question is: WHY, not what. Noise is random, that clearly isn't noise, it's a periodic glitch.

If it was Rigol you'd be all over that. It would be a "bug!", it would probably have a name by now.

[wraper]

It's how sin(x)x function displays a waveform.

Yes, we understand that perfectly. No need to keep repeating it, thanks.

The question is: WHY, not what. Noise is random, that clearly isn't noise, it's a periodic glitch.

If it was Rigol you'd be all over that. It would be a "bug!", it would probably have a name by now.

Because when he move that waveform vertically (can be seen on the video), it changes/disappears as display has limited resolution. What you are calling being an "artifact" is lower than a noise on the rigol screen. So yeah, if there is random crap in the screen, then it is "fine" but if there is lower than than that random crap on the fixed points, depending on the waveform position on the screen, then it is "wrong"?

[System Error Message]

glad that its not noise at least. If it is repeating than maybe it can be subtracted?

If you arent satisfied with the scope at this price range perhaps you could build your own. it may take a while though  to get one of equal or better specs but you would have to consider the cost of the screen, FPGA and memory.

Is the memory on the scope is it stored in the ram or is it some on chip memory like the CPU cache or on die RAM like intel has with some of their IGPs? I know for FPGAs tend to have a lot more memory than regular CPUs. Maybe instead of using FPGA you salvage a GPU chip for the job as it is very fast at math and with very high bandwidth memory but the cooling would be hilarious.

[Fungus]

What you are calling being an "artifact" is lower than a noise on the rigol screen. So yeah, if there is random crap in the screen, then it is "fine" but if there is lower than than that random crap on the fixed points, depending on the waveform position on the screen, then it is "wrong"?

Yes. An "artifact", at fixed points, depending on the waveform position on the screen, is wrong.

How can you possibly tell people it isn't?

[Fungus]

If you arent satisfied with the scope at this price range...

I'm perfectly happy with my DS1054Z.

I really can't understand why I'm being told I should prefer something with half the bandwidth, less functions and much lower build quality. It makes no sense at all to me. 

[wraper]

There is 256 magabyte ram connected to the FPGA/CPU ZINQ combo.

glad that its not noise at least. If it is repeating than maybe it can be subtracted?

There is nothing to subtract. And it can only be a bit apparent on the flat line and is below noise level anyway, and not periodic unless you specially fine tune the waveform position on the display + fiddle with other things. Also it can be argued that there is no such a thing on rigol is a good thing, because an accuracy of sin(x)/x in it is kind of lacking. It does not try to draw proper sine waveform out of 1 bit of data what can easily seen while vertically zooming it stopped waveform (you will see rectangles). Waveform does not change while moving it on the screen vertically because there in no signal processing on the display stage unlike in instek.

[System Error Message]

Ah so the memory is basically just standard ram. Maybe some desoldering and soldering of more ram but i guess it also depends on the compute ability of the scope itself.

I do have some questions for rigol owners. Since the rigol DS1054z has ethernet and usb has anyone used the ethernet on it? What features does it have over ethernet and are you able to take the direct measurements/points from the scope to the PC and have the PC do all the memory and compute instead?

These scopes have usb and ethernet so why burden the scope with software features that could be offloaded to the PC instead? I know for standalone and portability you do need features but when more compute power is available like a PC does it get used? has anyone even talked about the included PC software?

[madires]

I think it is safe to assume that those who have bought the scope, and are regulars on this forum, did know what they were buying and had their reasons to buy.

Exactly! I've bought a DS1054Z because of the low price, memory depth and the "free" options to supplement my 150MHz Hameg without any decoding features and only 1M memory per channel. I know the issues but I have no problem with them. There's no perfect tool for all your needs.

[Fungus]

I do have some questions for rigol owners. Since the rigol DS1054z has ethernet and usb has anyone used the ethernet on it?

Yes, a lot of people use it.

What features does it have over ethernet

All of them, I think.

are you able to take the direct measurements/points from the scope to the PC and have the PC do all the memory and compute instead?

Yes.

Here's the programming guide: http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/ProgrammingGuide/MSO1000Z_DS1000Z_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf

[wraper]

hese scopes have usb and ethernet so why burden the scope with software features that could be offloaded to the PC instead? I know for standalone and portability you do need features but when more compute power is available like a PC does it get used? has anyone even talked about the included PC software?

Data to the PC is transferred very slowly. Useful if you want to do some deeper processing with captured data, super slow and almost useless for a real time.

[ebclr]

I guess is no more useless than your coments

[Fungus]

You mean I can't send the full 1GSa/sec of data over Ethernet in real time? 

Oh, no!   

[wraper]

Even decent USB scopes do most of the processing internally in FPGA/ASIC and only processed data is then sent to the PC for displaying it. Because otherwise it in not possible to achieve any decent waveform capture rate at all. Data stream from the 8 bit 1 GSPS ADC is 8 gigabits per second, so it's not even possible to transfer it over ethernet directly without any preprocessing.

[Fungus]

has anyone even talked about the included PC software?

We don't mention that around here. It curses your 'scope and brings bad luck to the owner.

But ... certain forum members have written some nice utilities. Search the forums.

[ebclr]

The ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf is a hidden treasure who open a wide range of applications specially  automated tests

[alsetalokin4017]

(snip)

I do have some questions for rigol owners. Since the rigol DS1054z has ethernet and usb has anyone used the ethernet on it?

(snip)

http://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/

[rstofer]

Unfortunately, qmake seems to require a version of Qt4 or Qt5 well beyond what the Debian repositories are providing.  There is a Linux installer for 5.7 but I messed up somewhere because it simply installed it in my home directory - not entirely useful.  So, it's off to build from source but typing the configuration commands exceeds my interest in DSRemote.

It may very well be that Ubuntu has a more up-to-date version of Qt4 or Qt5.  If that's the case, the build should go quite easily.

[Bzzz]

Have DS1000Z series scope but didn't hack it yet.

And if I do, it will be bandwidth. Contrary to most of the forum users here, I'd only unlock stuff that is not sold by Rigol in any way. Unlocking purchasable software features via a ...very smart random number generator is usually considered piracy.

[JPortici]

piracy.

please, let's not discuss it here, there is/was a dedicated topic and this one has already derailed in the usual feud anyway
(rigol DID offer bandwidth upgrades in the past, or at least my seller did)

[bingo600]

Removed my guide to build DSRemote on U14.4.
I dont want to contribute to this thread, as it's becomming seriously derailed w. piracy outbursts

/Bingo

[Bzzz]

(rigol DID offer bandwidth upgrades in the past, or at least my seller did)

For a DS1000Z model? Interesting.

[ebclr]

Isn't considered piracy.... Is real piracy

[JPortici]

(rigol DID offer bandwidth upgrades in the past, or at least my seller did)

For a DS1000Z model? Interesting.

why is it so? you can upgrade your model to a greater bandwidth by means of a software licence, why don't sell it?*

anyway, as the rigol lovers would say you should only consider this scope as the 400$ but hacked one because otherwise it is indeed a piece of garbage, compared to the other brands alternatives
and apparently rigol doesn't even care to sell upgrades anymore until it keeps its presence in the hobbyist market

Altought i am "one of the seven" i won't sell mine until i'll have another two scopes so i won't need this as a throwaway. At the end of the day i can get the job done but this doesn't mean i won't get rid of it at the first occasion

*i am assuming it was an AUTHORIZED licensce, not a "we generate the code and sell it to you -smug pepe attached to the mail-"

[nctnico]

Isn't considered piracy.... Is real piracy

I don't want to start a generic argument about hacking but when it comes to the Rigol DS1054Z the hackability has turned it into (probably by far) the best selling oscilloscope ever. If Rigol took offense they could have plugged the hole in newer firmware versions a long time ago but they didn't. The same goes for the Riglol tool which allows to enable options on a large number of Rigol devices. By now Rigol could have issued a takedown notice for the website hosting the Riglol tool but they didn't. This means Rigol allows to 'hack' their equipment legally. Within many legal systems you have to take action within a certain amount of time otherwise it is assumed you allow things to happen and are OK with it (just like you can't back out of a deal you made).

[ebclr]

50 Mhz is only for Calcuta Madre Teresa, all the bad guys here ( including myself ) will get the 100 Mhz ( in fact a little more ) with all options, due to the genius marketing idea Rigol people have