Rigol DS1054Z/DS1000Z poll: are hacked options actually useful for you?

[wraper]

So in DS1054Z tread and earlier in other treads, there appeared a debate if people actually need/use hacked options in DS1000Z series scopes. Or if it is more like self delusion and people buy this model just because of the hackability and think they get a great deal while actually hacked options bear no real value in everyday use for them. DS1000Z also have some few serious and many minor bugs which don't get fixed in timely manner and new bugs introduced in the new firmware too (like broken RMS measurement in the latest firmware which is there for ~6 months and no fix/downgrade possible). This debate was raised because not so long tome ago appeared very interesting GDS-1054Z from GW instek which overall appears to be better in almost every way (faster waveform update rate, 1 mpts FFT, better advanced math, better analog spec and so on) and a little bit cheaper too. Also overall interesting and affordable whole GDS-1000B, GDS2000E series (more expensive, but decoding is out of the box). Absence of serious bugs makes them very attractive to. However people still insist you must get DS1054Z because it is HACKABLE and it is where the true value lies. So are those hackable options as good in your everyday use as people talk about, you decide.

P.S. This poll is about if you actually use what those hacked options offer. Not about if you like the fact of hackability.

[Fungus]

You need over 50Mhz to see a 10Mhz square wave with any sort of squareness, so... 

[wraper]

You need over 50Mhz to see a 10Mhz square wave with any sort of squareness, so... 

The question is do you always need that complete squareness? Also I doubt any of Arduino tinkerers can see any square wave of such frequency, maximum they will check is crystal oscillation (sine). Other MCU peripherals usually run at much slower speeds either. Also nctnico used serial decoding on GDS2204E on SPI bus with 125 MHz clock without an issue, although it looked more like sine wave.

[Fungus]

You need over 50Mhz to see a 10Mhz square wave with any sort of squareness, so... 

The question is do you always need that complete squareness? Also I doubt any of Arduino tinkerers can see any square wave of such frequency...

Maybe, maybe not. Seeing a sine wave instead of a square wave is disconcerting to a newbie though.

PS: I bet 'Arduino tinkerers' do like having serial decoders and they probably don't care much about FFTs or simultaneous RMS voltage readings across multiple channels.

[CustomEngineerer]

How come the MEM-DS1000Z (increased memory) and REC-DS1000Z (Real Time Waveform Record and Replay) options aren't listed in the voting options?

Edit: Not trying to suggest you need more voting options. The options really should just be, "I have a DS1000Z but haven't hacked. I've hacked it but get no use out of it. I've hacked it and use the options all the time."

Don't really see the point in splitting up the ones that have hacked it and gotten use out of it other than to make the other 2 options seem like a bigger percent.

Edit 2: Not voting as I don't have a DS1000Z, though do have DS2072A.

[ebclr]

Sooner we will understand , I beat the point is to blame Rigol

[wraper]

How come the MEM-DS1000Z (increased memory) and REC-DS1000Z (Real Time Waveform Record and Replay) options aren't listed in the voting options?

Edit: Not trying to suggest you need more voting options. The options really should just be, "I have a DS1000Z but haven't hacked. I've hacked it but get no use out of it. I've hacked it and use the options all the time."

added REC and MEM to the first voting option.

Edit 2: Not voting as I don't have a DS1000Z, though do have DS2072A.

This poll is for bottom of the end model. I have hacked DS2072 myself. The point of this poll is if those hacked options are so important as alternatives don't have them. On the other hand, alternatives in DS2000A price range have those out of the box and don't need any hacking or purchasing. Well, now I myself have bit better idea what I should have written as voting options, but don't want to break it and start voting again.

Don't really see the point in splitting up the ones that have hacked it and gotten use out of it other than to make the other 2 options seem like a bigger percent.

That is to see how important the bandwidth is, as it is the only difference between the differently priced models in the series.

[ataradov]

I do use memory size and triggers.

I don't care about FFT, since I can dump lots of data (see memory size) to my computer and do analysis with real tools.

[ebastler]

You forgot the "Hacked or not, my GW Instek is better anyway" option. 
Geez, where re we -- kindergarten?

[tautech]

You forgot the "Hacked or not, my GW Instek is better anyway" option. 
Geez, where re we -- kindergarten?

Yep, kindergarten where we start to learn to read.
Have DS1000Z series scope but didn't hack it

Of course I'm one of the nosy ones that just want to see the poll results, BTW wraper thanks for adding that option to the poll. 

[ebastler]

You forgot the "Hacked or not, my GW Instek is better anyway" option. 
Geez, where re we -- kindergarten?

Yep, kindergarten where we start to learn to read.
Have DS1000Z series scope but didn't hack it

Huh? I don't think you got my drift there...

[tautech]

You forgot the "Hacked or not, my GW Instek is better anyway" option. 
Geez, where re we -- kindergarten?

Yep, kindergarten where we start to learn to read.
Have DS1000Z series scope but didn't hack it

Huh? I don't think you got my drift there...

I didn't and sorry for any offence, none was intended. 

[Fungus]

You forgot the "Hacked or not, my GW Instek is better anyway" option. 
Geez, where re we -- kindergarten?

The "Hacked my scope but would rather trade hacked options for absence of bugs and better specs" option is wide open to interpretation as well. What exactly are "better specs"?

If the poll is really about bugs vs. hacks then the option should be: "Hacked my scope but would rather trade the upgrades for absence of bugs".

(And how severe are the bugs, really? If a bug takes 6 months for the first person to notice it then how should we rate it...?  )

[wraper]

And how severe are the bugs, really? If a bug takes 6 months for the first person to notice it then how should we rate it...?  )

This is not true and you know it.

[wraper]

Edited not hacked option. Now you can vote for that also if you don't use what hack offers but also don't want to vote for option above it and think it's still the best scope for the price even without a hack.

[ebclr]

I would like to know any serious bug on rigol, I use mine on a daily base on my work is done everyday, where are those bugs ? Are they relevant ?

[Fungus]

And how severe are the bugs, really? If a bug takes 6 months for the first person to notice it then how should we rate it...?  )

This is not true and you know it.

The deadly serious "RMS" bug was first reported in early March: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-issue/

The firmware responsible for it was released in early November.

Ok, that's only 5 months, not 6. You win.

[wraper]

Ok, that's only 5 months, not 6. You win.

That also means they didn't fix any of the newly introduced problems with that firmware for 11 months. I thought it was a bit newer.

[ebclr]

This bug is totally irrelevant on a scope far away to be serius

[alsetalokin4017]

I would like to know any serious bug on rigol, I use mine on a daily base on my work is done everyday, where are those bugs ? Are they relevant ?

It depends on what you mean by "serious".

Do you consider having a high RMS value measurement displayed on channels with zero inputs, even grounded, a serious bug which calls into question the accuracy of all reported RMS measurment values? I do -- but then again I do (or try to do) a lot of power measurements using my scope.

Do you consider having a horizontally displaced and misscaled Math trace at 500 ns/div a serious bug? I do. Again, the ability to make certain power measurements at particular frequencies is compromised by this bug. Fortunately it only happens at the 500 ns/div timescale-- as far as I can tell.

Do you consider having _all_ Measurements stop working at random times when Math and more than 2 channels are being used, requiring a power-cycle reboot, a serious bug? I sure do; in fact this one is a major buzzkill and Rigol USA reproduced it on their scopes immediately when I reported it to them months ago.

Do you consider having a Measurement displayed with a spelling error as "Pluses" instead of "Pulses" a serious bug? No, I don't consider this one "serious", since it does not affect usability, it is just laughable -- and demonstrates a rather shoddy quality assurance process at Rigol, for them to have released such an obvious and easy-to-correct typo in their code.

Or how about the fact that the FFT display resets its scale features when switching Mode from "Memory" to "Trace" or vice-versa? Serious, or just terminally annoying?
 

Other bugs that I don't consider serious are the sluggish response to vertical positioning controls, and the inability of _some_ users to push a knob-button without also turning it (the secret is in how you support your hand while pushing the button, it is easy to avoid this "bug" which has even caused some users to replace their rotary encoders altogether, LOL -- if this is a "bug" it is a bug in the user, not the scope). Or the "loud" fan which in my laboratory is not audible over all the rest of the equipment fans that are constantly running-- not a serious bug (feature) at all, but many people have replaced their fans with quieter ones. Or the slow saving of screenshots to USB flashdrives -- just wait, go get a beverage or something, it's not serious just annoying. (But the occasional strange failures in filename sequencing may be serious under some circumstances).

[Fungus]

Do you consider having _all_ Measurements stop working at random times when Math and more than 2 channels are being used, requiring a power-cycle reboot, a serious bug? I sure do; in fact this one is a major buzzkill and Rigol USA reproduced it on their scopes immediately when I reported it to them months ago.

Maybe you should chase that one up. See if they're fixing it. 

[alsetalokin4017]

This bug is totally irrelevant on a scope far away to be serius

It may be irrelevant to you, but it has caused at least one DS1054z purchaser to regret his purchase and to seek to return his scope and get a different brand.

It's not irrelevant to me either, but I'm not going to return my scope over it. I fervently hope that Rigol will get on the ball and fix this and the other serious bugs in the next firmware update.


Oh, yes, I forgot one "feature". It is not possible to roll back to an earlier firmware version once you have installed a later one, by any process that I am aware of. This is just stupid, IMHO, and is very serious, since it is clear that firmware updates can introduce new bugs that may not be acceptable to some users.

[alsetalokin4017]

Do you consider having _all_ Measurements stop working at random times when Math and more than 2 channels are being used, requiring a power-cycle reboot, a serious bug? I sure do; in fact this one is a major buzzkill and Rigol USA reproduced it on their scopes immediately when I reported it to them months ago.

Maybe you should chase that one up. See if they're fixing it. 

Maybe if many other users who can duplicate this bug take the trouble to file bug reports to Rigol ..... some action will be taken.

Or maybe it's just too hard for Rigol to fix all these issues and they've simply given up, having already saturated the low-end DSO market with the DS1054z. After all... many users of the scope find nothing wrong with it, since their use of the scope is so basic that they never encounter the bugs.



BTW-- I voted this option in the Poll:

Measure more than 50 MHz + use serial decoding/advanced triggers, REC, MEM in the real world scenario

Measurement of fast rise/falltime pulses, advanced trigger options, REC and deeper memory used often. Serial decoding, not yet but will be doing so in the future.

[ebclr]

I guess this one will have a little less bugs and better English


http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-x205209/infiniivision-4000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-32539.0&cc=US&lc=eng


Now the bug will appear on your pocket

[Fungus]

Maybe if many other users who can duplicate this bug take the trouble to file bug reports to Rigol ..... some action will be taken.

Maybe if you told people how to "file bug reports to Rigol" it would be more productive than endless posting about it.

Or maybe it's just too hard for Rigol to fix all these issues and they've simply given up, having already saturated the low-end DSO market with the DS1054z.

I'm not sure what's going on.

If I had to guess? I'd say the lead programmer at the DS1054Z division has left the company and his replacement is a prime candidate for TDWTF.

Somebody at Rigol really needs to pull their finger out.

After all... many users of the scope find nothing wrong with it, since their use of the scope is so basic that they never encounter the bugs.

That's certainly true

(...but not because they're idiots or anything, it's just that 99.9% of real life 'scope use is basic. It's triggering, it's looking at wiggly lines on screen - both of which the DS1054Z does admirably well)

Do you consider having a high RMS value measurement displayed on channels with zero inputs, even grounded, a serious bug which calls into question the accuracy of all reported RMS measurment values?

Are the values on the channels with inputs correct? If so, it's not a serious bug, no. Most likely just a bug in the 'isAnythingConnected()" function.

Turn those channels off and the bug vanishes!

Do you consider having a horizontally displaced and misscaled Math trace at 500 ns/div a serious bug? I do. Again, the ability to make certain power measurements at particular frequencies is compromised by this bug. Fortunately it only happens at the 500 ns/div timescale-- as far as I can tell.

Do you consider having _all_ Measurements stop working at random times when Math and more than 2 channels are being used, requiring a power-cycle reboot, a serious bug? I sure do; in fact this one is a major buzzkill and Rigol USA reproduced it on their scopes immediately when I reported it to them months ago.

Math needs fixing, we agree on that.

OTOH what's a good response to every newbie who posts here asking if the DS1054Z is worth buying? Is it:

a) Do you need to apply math functions on multiple channels at 500ns/div? Is that a critical function to you? If so, the DS1054Z has a known issue.

Or is it:

b) OMG!!! The DS1054Z is totally bugridden!!! Don't even think of buying one, buy one of these instead. Sure the other one is big, ugly and a horrible recycled yellow/brown color. Yes, you'll have half the bandwidth, less RAM and no serial decoders. The font end's noisier because they used cheapo op-amps, the build quality's a bit lacking, the screen bezel is a bit, um, 'chunky' because they were cheap and used the case from a model with a bigger screen... but you'll totally avoid the deadly 500ns/div math bug when more than 2 channels are on!! It's sooooo worth it!!!

Do you consider having a Measurement displayed with a spelling error as "Pluses" instead of "Pulses" a serious bug?

No. Stuff like that slips through sometimes.

Or how about the fact that the FFT display resets its scale features when switching Mode from "Memory" to "Trace" or vice-versa? Serious, or just terminally annoying?

Annoying.

the inability of _some_ users to push a knob-button without also turning it (the secret is in how you support your hand while pushing the button, it is easy to avoid this "bug" which has even caused some users to replace their rotary encoders altogether

User interface is my specialty, things like that dismay me. 

(yes... I do have complaints about Rigols, but none of them are to do with bugs)

There's definitely a crapness and general lack of thought in parts of the DS1054Z user interface and some things that just don't make any sense at all (like the duplication of the trigger mode settings - what a total waste of panel space and LEDs that is).

Lots of other devices do it the same way though. It seems to be an industry standard crapness, not something Rigol invented.

Yes, I've posted some very simple suggestions that would improve the UI immensely. If Rigol wants to talk? I'm happy to help out.