EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: crt on August 14, 2013, 03:07:53 pm
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I'm bit bored at my room :=\
first sight at analog input ==> is that rust ??? YES !!! ;D
i see only 2 IC that been erased
(using my super eye)
one i recognize brand only == > ACTEL but the number was to blur
the second one (small chip) ==> HAD1512 PPS (can not sure)
p.s
Someone please "HACK" this scope
I believe this one will be the next rising star :-DD
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Is the power supply the same as the other Rigol instruments of this generation?
Looks like Rigol have moved from AD Blackfin to Freescale i.MX. Interesting choice.
And one quad ADC chip instead of two dual ADCs, rare to see that in a 4ch scope, this is a budget model though.
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Interesting. It is clear where the LA is going to be, and the output connectors for the SG, but where is the rest of the SG hardware going?
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I have to admit, that's a pretty crusty looking scope :(
They should have added 4-channels to the DS2000-series. This business of making different models for every possible configuration instead of just choosing a single useful configuration for each price range is annoying. Soon, Rigol will have 200 active products on the go if they keep this up
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I have to admit, that's a pretty crusty looking scope :(
They should have added 4-channels to the DS2000-series. This business of making different models for every possible configuration instead of just choosing a single useful configuration for each price range is annoying. Soon, Rigol will have 200 active products on the go if they keep this up
Yep, on the DS4000 you can move from 2 ch to 4 ch for $400 at 100MHz and from 2 ch to 4 ch at 200MHz for $300. Rigol should offer the DS2000 series with 4 channel increments at same type of pricing increments rather than forcing you upstream to the DS4000 series with more Mpts and wfm/s than some users need/want, or downstream to the DS1000 series.
Seems like test equipment product managers sometimes spend more time thinking about playing chess with the competition than satisfying the customers. Kind of like a restaurant that says you can only have this bun with that burger and these dressings, and no substitutions – might be easier on the kitchen and in theory more profitable for the time being, but longer term – maybe not so much.
You don't need every option at every price point and infinite flexibility (although with decreasing hardware costs and software invoked features we're headed in that direction), but you need a gracefully incremental growth path that anticipates what the market wants. The winner will be the company that can best anticipate and execute.
Overall, Rigol is doing a fine job but there is room for improvement, and the same with Agilent (especially with their approach to serial decoders and LA functionality limitations on the 2000) – just thresholds and walls that frustrate or annoy customers.
It's like it's all sitting there for the first one of these two to see who really figures it out, Rigol or Agilent. The longer each waits the more they lose some customers to the other (that's the nature of competition no doubt), but I think at the low low end (around $500 and under) and at the high low end (around $1k) and at the low middle (around $1500-$2k) Rigol is very likely taking share from Agilent.
So, while Rigol could improve a few things I think doing so might maybe enable them to run the table on Agilent in the lower realm of the market. For Agilent they either have to abandon the lower realm or step up. Agilent probably doesn't care about the lower realm as they are happy to live with the pro "commercial", "industrial", and "enterprise” markets. Agilent's challenge might be that once Rigol firmly embeds itself at the lower realm Rigol will only getter hungrier to move upstream.
I think there is still a ton of opportunity to figure out how to better leverage the integration of traditional "electronics" and "digital" technology - both in terms of managing users’ digital signals (serial decoding, LAs, etc.) and in terms of how to use digital technology to better monitor, analyze, and manage with test equipment (such as what Rigol is doing with the control and programming features they are bringing to $400 power supplies vs. what you currently get from Agilent for 2x the price).
Without a doubt equipment operating precision and reliability and service and support are huge - especially in the pro markets but it will be a race to see if Rigol can figure this stuff out before Agilent figures out how to embrace the use of digital technology in way that brings more feature richness and better price performance. Clearly, more competition is good for users (by the way, anyone hear anything new from Tektronix lately? Sure would be nice if they came back to play at the level they once displayed.) Just sayin'
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Tek has been REALLY disappointing in the low end lately. Their TDS and TBS series almost have laughable memories. 2.5k points? Are you kidding me? Their DPO2000 series aren't especially compelling either, and they refuse to lower their prices. A better price for Tek's 25MHz TBS1000 would be around $100, looking at the other products that the Chinese are making. Why must I pay over 1000 dollars for a DPO class scope, when I can go buy a perfectly good, 4 channel, Rigol DS1074Z for $600, and add on a whole bunch of goodies, like serial decode/triggering, waveform gen, etc. I miss the days when their 2247's and 2467's were trailblazing. And remember the TDS210/220? Those scopes practically invented the DSO market. Tek just isn't what it used to be. *sigh*
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Looks like Rigol have moved from AD Blackfin to Freescale i.MX. Interesting choice.
and when they made (properly) use of following features:
• 128 KBytes of integrated mask-programmable on-chip ROM
• 1280 bits of on-chip one-time-programmable (OCOTP) ROM
• Security features:
— Read-only unique ID for Digital Rights Management (DRM) algorithms
— Secure boot using 128-bit AES hardware decryption
— SHA-1 and SHA256 hashing hardware
— High assurance boot (HAB4)
then there will be no hack. But who knows, Rigol had already chance to make it better on other models and they didn't.
but they didn't ^^
Someone please "HACK" this scope
On the other PCB side there must be NAND i think, the Freescale i.MX is ARM9 based so maybe even Linux running.
There is JTAG connector, if you can made a dump of the NAND.
i see only 2 IC that been erased
one i recognize brand only == > ACTEL but the number was to blur
the second one (small chip) ==> HAD1512 PPS (can not sure)
the first one can be easily identified over JTAG, the second one (the 4ch ADC) is HMCAD1511 from Hittite.
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Is the power supply the same as the other Rigol instruments of this generation?
I did not see it in detail, but it looks like same as DS2000 series
then there will be no hack. But who knows, Rigol had already chance to make it better on other models and they didn't.
I'm pretty sure, one or more EEVBLOG member will crack them up >:D
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To see firmware version on DS2000 series, press
Menu7 Menu6 Menu7 Utility
I don't get it, which menu ? press menu 7 time, 6 time, 7 times again and then press utitlity button?
Sorry for DUMB question :-[
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To see firmware version on DS2000 series, press
Menu7 Menu6 Menu7 Utility
I don't get it, which menu ? press menu 7 time, 6 time, 7 times again and then press utitlity button?
Sorry for DUMB question :-[
Is easy -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)
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Is easy -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)
Thank You very much
Before, I confused, where the Menu6 & Menu7 position |O
I randomly push all the menu button + Utility quickly ==> nothing happened ==> turn it off ==> turn it on ==> all setting back to default (plus CHINESE LANGUANGE) :-DD
Now, i get it
at DS1074Z ==> Only have one Menu at left side
Press Menu (left side) and then ulitity quickly ==> Go to system info ==> TADA
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4722/qiwf.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/qiwf.png/)
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When you had it apart did you see the IC responsible for amplifying the channels? It might help to know if it is the type that allows you to set the bandwidth...
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the 1000z should work with the same keygen as the ds2000 - its the same curve, and same private key thats used.
if somebody posts a trial key we could work out the option bits, but i assume its the same schema ..
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When you had it apart did you see the IC responsible for amplifying the channels? It might help to know if it is the type that allows you to set the bandwidth...
At which position ?
Inside those shield can ? if yes i will try to open it
the 1000z should work with the same keygen as the ds2000 - its the same curve, and same private key thats used.
if somebody posts a trial key we could work out the option bits, but i assume its the same schema ..
Someone had already find test key, and it works :-+
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the 1000z should work with the same keygen as the ds2000 - its the same curve, and same private key thats used.
if somebody posts a trial key we could work out the option bits, but i assume its the same schema ..
Someone had already find test key, and it works :-+
Where can I find the test key ?
Are you try it yourself ?
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Where can I find the test key ?
Are you try it yourself ?
Please see my personal text :)
yes i had try it, and it work
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Please see my personal text :)
yes i had try it, and it work
Thank you! It works for me ^-^
but, after reboot, the scope return to trial mode again :(
how about your scope after reboot?
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Thank you! It works for me ^-^
but, after reboot, the scope return to trial mode again :(
how about your scope after reboot?
Your patient will be rewarded
someone still getting through >:D
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Your patient will be rewarded
someone still getting through >:D
Thanks for your reply, and waiting for that monent coming >:D
BTW, when i use "Storage" function to save CSV, it will failed if sample depth is more than 60Kpts, do you have same problem on your scope?(firmware ver: 00.10.00.SP10)
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Thanks for your reply, and waiting for that monent coming >:D
BTW, when i use "Storage" function to save CSV, it will failed if sample depth is more than 60Kpts, do you have same problem on your scope?(firmware ver: 00.10.00.SP10)
with this parameter
Storage ==> CSV // DataSrc ==> Screen // Param ==> Off
I have try it at 240Kpts and 2.4Mpts, it can save normally at my USB Drive
I have same version off firmware as you have
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Sneak peak with test key >:D
(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8941/sy13.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/sy13.jpg/)
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Wow, they finally managed to spell 'official' correctly! ;)
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with this parameter
Storage ==> CSV // DataSrc ==> Screen // Param ==> Off
I have try it at 240Kpts and 2.4Mpts, it can save normally at my USB Drive
I have same version off firmware as you have
Could you try following parameter ?
Storage ==> CSV // DataSrc ==> MEM // Param ==> ON and sample depth > 60Kpts
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Before, I confused, where the Menu6 & Menu7 position |O
I randomly push all the menu button + Utility quickly ==> nothing happened ==> turn it off ==> turn it on ==> all setting back to default (plus CHINESE LANGUANGE) :-DD
Now, i get it
at DS1074Z ==> Only have one Menu at left side
Press Menu (left side) and then ulitity quickly ==> Go to system info ==> TADA
How quick is quick? I tried it numerous times and still couldn't see that screen on my DS1104Z.
Do you need to be on the Trigger menu before you push “menu” on the left (the light blue one, correct?), or other menu/screen? And do you then push “system” and then “system info” to see it?
BTW, I just asked my supplier to send me the lastest “software” version and now it reads 00.01.00.SP10. Used to say SP5
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Could you try following parameter ?
Storage ==> CSV // DataSrc ==> MEM // Param ==> ON and sample depth > 60Kpts
Yep, same as you
its failed to save :palm:
How quick is quick? I tried it numerous times and still couldn't see that screen on my DS1104Z.
Do you need to be on the Trigger menu before you push “menu” on the left (the light blue one, correct?), or other menu/screen? And do you then push “system” and then “system info” to see it?
BTW, I just asked my supplier to send me the lastest “software” version and now it reads 00.01.00.SP10. Used to say SP5
Yes, enter trigger menu ==> press light blue menu (near left display) ==> and press utility
Funny thing, right now i can not enter that mode too :-//
i dont know, maybe because i upgrade my firmware form 03 to 10 ?
or because those trial key :-//
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Could you try following parameter ?
Storage ==> CSV // DataSrc ==> MEM // Param ==> ON and sample depth > 60Kpts
Yep, same as you
its failed to save :palm:
i already feed back this problem to Rigol, they said it will be fixed in next firmware version.
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i already feed back this problem to Rigol, they said it will be fixed in next firmware version.
Please inform me when new firmware is release :)
p.s
DS1000Z owner should read this
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/1080/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/1080/)
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Okey, i will post it here if i get the new version.
It's really a good news for rigol users:)
They did a great job!
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Guys, my scope just arrived. It has V00.02.00 SP1 FW on it (I can't seem to get the advance system info key combo to work...).
Anyway, my scope randomly decides to restart spontaneously :-\
Is there any later firmware? Where do I need to go on the Rigol site to request an update?
Can also confirm the bug below happens on mine too
rigol DS1074Z system halted DS1000Z (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=588TCe9-DPw#)
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My DS1104Z has V00.01.00.SP10 software version on it. The bug in the video doesn't happen on mine. My scope actually came with an even earlier version and I got this version I'm using in early September from the dealer in Beijing where I ordered the scope from.
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Guys, my scope just arrived. It has V00.02.00 SP1 FW on it (I can't seem to get the advance system info key combo to work...).
Anyway, my scope randomly decides to restart spontaneously :-\
Is there any later firmware? Where do I need to go on the Rigol site to request an update?
Can also confirm the bug below happens on mine too
rigol DS1074Z system halted DS1000Z (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=588TCe9-DPw#)
Please tell us more about the 1074Z. Thanks!
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I've started posting some bugs - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-522-rigol-ds1000z-oscilloscope-quick-look/msg294218/#msg294218 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-522-rigol-ds1000z-oscilloscope-quick-look/msg294218/#msg294218)
It's already a nice scope though. Well worth the price. A few more firmware updates and it'll be perfect.
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Did anyone ever figure out how to get into the advanced system info menu?
Also, I've tried to measure rise time on my DS1074Z and I've got to say I am pretty pleased so far! I have the 70MHz model and:
Rigol 350MHz Probes (RP1300) - I mostly get 1.7ns rise time, but have seen a 1.6ns.
Rigol 150MHz Probes (RP2200) - I mostly get 1.9ns to 2.0ns rise time, but have seen a 1.8ns.
I am not using a decent rise time pulse generator - just a tactile button with some capacitors that switches from ground to +5V.
Shouldn't this rise time be MUCH slower for this model as in 5ns?
Is it possible the 1104Z and 1074Z are the SAME unit just with a different sticker on them?
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Is it possible the 1104Z and 1074Z are the SAME unit just with a different sticker on them?
Quite possible. There has been no difference ever discovered between the DS2072 and DS2102 - except the front panel sticker.
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Is it possible the 1104Z and 1074Z are the SAME unit just with a different sticker on them?
Quite possible. There has been no difference ever discovered between the DS2072 and DS2102 - except the front panel sticker.
And the price tag! ;D
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Shouldn't this rise time be MUCH slower for this model as in 5ns?
Only if the bandwidth was actually 70 MHz.
Rigol 350MHz Probes (RP1300) - I mostly get 1.7ns rise time, but have seen a 1.6ns.
Rigol 150MHz Probes (RP2200) - I mostly get 1.9ns to 2.0ns rise time, but have seen a 1.8ns.
One thing to keep in mind there is you have only 5 sample points/div. So I wouldn't put much stock (any at all) in the tenths of a nanosec rez. You're splitting imaginary hairs.
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Only if the bandwidth was actually 70 MHz.
So far I am pleased - I won't have to try to find a way to "unlock" it to 100MHz... If it is 1.7ns that is 350/1.7 = 205 MHz.
It may lack in sample speed, but it is nice to know it won't be limited by bandwidth too.
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Could you try following parameter ?
Storage ==> CSV // DataSrc ==> MEM // Param ==> ON and sample depth > 60Kpts
Yep, same as you
its failed to save :palm:
i already feed back this problem to Rigol, they said it will be fixed in next firmware version.
I received my DS1074Z-S today, with the firmware version 00.02.00.SP1
I have emailed Rigol about firmware update since this one has some bugs. Where am I suppose to request firmware by the way? (I just emailed their European sales office, it was the only email I could find)
- I can not enter the advanced system info menu either with this firmware.
- I can't save waveforms or CSV with large number of points, limited to very small memory, gives error otherwise.
- If I turn the scope off with the signal generator turned on, it will boot up with it turned on as well (remembers settings), but the status LED will not be on (signal is enabled but no indication that it is on).
- All advanced math functions (integrate, abs, sqrt etc.) only work when 2 channels are enabled (even though they should only need one channels), seems that you need to have specific combination of channels enabled: Ch1, Ch3 or Ch2, Ch4. Other combinations of active channels results in error message.
- In menu: Utility -> System, there is option "VerticalExp", with no explanation in the manual or in the help menu in the device. Can be set to "Ground" or "Center", which determines the reference when you zoom in on a vertically offset signal. Ground is standard, Center means that the entire trace shifts vertical position when you change vertical gain.
This was a few things I found during the first 2 hours of testing.
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So far I am pleased - I won't have to try to find a way to "unlock" it to 100MHz... If it is 1.7ns that is 350/1.7 = 205 MHz.
It may lack in sample speed, but it is nice to know it won't be limited by bandwidth too.
Sorry, I don't think this conclusion is valid. The BW = 0.34/tr is only valid if the scope has a gaussian response. For example the DS1102E doesn't. See EEVblog #311 - Jim Williams Pulser Followup (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBYMePUFinQ#ws)
Jump to 15:20. Measured 2ns rise time which would be 170MHz. But the real bandwidth is 136MHz.
I made tests with a 74AC14 based oscillator into a 50ohm coax and a feed-through terminator. This is from my 100MHz DS1052E. The ringing is symmetrically around the top. My 100MHz analog scopes shows the same.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/?action=dlattach;attach=68763)
This is from my DS1074Z. The existing overshoot is reduced. It's slower.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/?action=dlattach;attach=68765)
Here with a RP2200 probe connected at the feed-trough terminator. First with the ground lead. Second with a BNC to probe adapter. The probe overshoots and therefore the measured rise time is lower.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/?action=dlattach;attach=68767)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/?action=dlattach;attach=68769)
Measuring the bandwidth by rise time may not work and measuring the rise time with a probe may not work too.
Edit: I doubt that it's possible to measure <2ns time times with only 1GSa/s correctly. What you see is the result of interpolation.
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It may lack in sample speed, but it is nice to know it won't be limited by bandwidth too.
A limitation in sample speed IS a limitation in bandwidth.
Don't forget Mr. Nyquist. Unless you enjoy spending your time chasing ghosts. ;D
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A limitation in sample speed IS a limitation in bandwidth.
Don't forget Mr. Nyquist. Unless you enjoy spending your time chasing ghosts. ;D
I should have said analog or input stage bandwidth, but yet indeed sample speed is always a concern.
Sorry, I don't think this conclusion is valid. The BW = 0.34/tr is only valid if the scope has a gaussian response. For example the DS1102E doesn't.
Even so, it is much better than I would have thought given it is only a 70MHz scope. Even if you take 350/1.7=205.9 and then multiply it by 80% (like the error in the DS1052) you still get 164.7MHz. Far exceeds what I would have expected.
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Frequency Response plot of a Rigol DS1074Z for those who may be interested.
The DSO will display wave forms up to at least 300Mhz in single channel mode.
The Edge trigger is very stable up to at least 400Mhz with a signal level down to approx 0.8 div p-p.
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Frequency Response plot of a Rigol DS1074Z for those who may be interested.
IS the -3dB rule valid for test equipment too? Then this would be a 90MHz scope I guess.
Would be nice if someone could do the same on a DS1104Z.
Edit: PS: Did you see this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1104zds1074z/msg313898/#msg313898). This guy has a sticker-labeled DS1074Z-S, but firmware claims DS1104Z-S, which is the model he ordered. He speculates they rebatched them in the factory due to stock issues.
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Yes, the bandwidth is specified at the -3dB down point.
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Frequency Response plot of a Rigol DS1074Z for those who may be interested.
The DSO will display wave forms up to at least 300Mhz in single channel mode.
The Edge trigger is very stable up to at least 400Mhz with a signal level down to approx 0.8 div p-p.
Interesting. I'm beginning to wonder if looking at the rise time of a pulse is of much use if that graph is true.
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- In menu: Utility -> System, there is option "VerticalExp", with no explanation in the manual or in the help menu in the device. Can be set to "Ground" or "Center", which determines the reference when you zoom in on a vertically offset signal. Ground is standard, Center means that the entire trace shifts vertical position when you change vertical gain.
This was a few things I found during the first 2 hours of testing.
This is a standard function found in many scopes. Nothing special. You can fing it even in an Agilent user manual or so...
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Does the 1000Z have a screen saver?
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Frequency Response plot of a Rigol DS1074Z for those who may be interested.
Thanks! This confirms my suspicion that the frequency roll off is quite flat.
What signal source do you used?
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- In menu: Utility -> System, there is option "VerticalExp", with no explanation in the manual or in the help menu in the device. Can be set to "Ground" or "Center", which determines the reference when you zoom in on a vertically offset signal. Ground is standard, Center means that the entire trace shifts vertical position when you change vertical gain.
This was a few things I found during the first 2 hours of testing.
This is a standard function found in many scopes. Nothing special. You can fing it even in an Agilent user manual or so...
You are probably right, I was just little confused since it was placed together with firmware information and installation of serial keys.
I did however send the list of the most essential bugs to Rigol today, they did confirm that my firmware version was the latest at the moment 00.02.00.SP1
Does the 1000Z have a screen saver?
I have not seen any on my scope, but on a modern LCD you should not need one?
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I have not seen any on my scope, but on a modern LCD you should not need one?
Good point, just thought there might be since it is on the ds2000...
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Frequency Response plot of a Rigol DS1074Z for those who may be interested.
Thanks! This confirms my suspicion that the frequency roll off is quite flat.
What signal source do you used?
The measurements were made using a calibrated Systron Donner RF signal generator connected via a 50 ohm coax cable to a "T" piece with a 50 ohm termination on the DSO.
I have since made an additional plot using the supplied Rigol RP2200 probe set to x10.
The probe is fitted with a BNC adaptor and connected to the "T" with 50 ohm termination , which is now directly on the signal generator output.
This is probably a better representation of "real world" type measurements.
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Please see my personal text :)
yes i had try it, and it work
Thank you! It works for me ^-^
but, after reboot, the scope return to trial mode again :(
how about your scope after reboot?
Hi, license key from personal text of CRT is not working for me. I have DS1074z-s, SW ver. 00.04.00.
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Did anyone ever figure out how to get into the extended system info menu shown on post #10 ?
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Hi everybody!
I've bought few months ago a DS1074Z, added all options (compiled & ran the 4-in-1 stuff), working perfectly.I enjoy this scope, covers all of my needs in my home lab...
But, what the rear LAN connector and the USB connector is used for? I could only save the screen image, even slower than connecting a thumb drive to the scope, and pressing the hardcopy button... The CD found in the scope's box contained only the manual, and an almost useless frontend that only can be used to send some commands which aren't described well.
Is there any possibility to remote control this scope from a PC? Or the on-board Ethernet and USB connector is only some useless gadget?
EDIT: found THIS: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z200040006000-waveform-capture-utility/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z200040006000-waveform-capture-utility/) working with USB, but with LAN cannot connect to scope... Fast(er) response than the program on the Rigol CD...