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Is the Rigol DS1074Z a good choice for someone that is new to Oscilloscopes?

Yes!
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Author Topic: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope  (Read 114955 times)

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Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2014, 08:53:15 am »
Am I the only one that would like to see a 2-channel version of the 1000Z series?

Yes.

Quote
I think this could potentially be a full replacement for the DS1052 which is very old and probably time to retire.

They will retire the DS1052 when it stops selling.

I am assuming the reason you're pining for a 2-channel 1000Z is because you think/hope it would be significantly cheaper than 4-channels.  The problem being, it wouldn't. 

Removing 2 BNC connectors and a handful of front-end parts from the PCB would have minimal cost impact.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2014, 09:38:09 am »
One ADC for all channels would indicate an analog channel switch which seems rather unlikely given the existence of inexpensive 8 bit 1 GSample/second ADCs and the difficulty of high speed analog multiplexing.  Inexpensive designs have an ADC on every channel but are digitally multiplexed with one memory bus and one bank of memory which is what limits the record sizes and sample rates when multiple channels are used.

Well, I own one so can confirm it drops to 250MSa/s and 6Mpts with all 4 channels active.

The ADC costs $80 for a single gigasample channel. That's not particularly cheap for a $580 instrument. I think internally the ADC is probably implemented as 4x250MSa/s channels with an internal multiplexer. Someone linked to the ADC datasheet previously  but I can't find that anymore. The data is streamed into an FPGA which has ~32MB of DDR2 and ~1MB of SRAM. The FPGA probably acts as a "camera" for the Freescale i.MX device which controls the LCD directly (unlike the 2000 series where there is a second FPGA for the display management.)
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2014, 11:16:17 pm »

I wonder whether the faulty 500uV resolution was fixed? Maybe I should test that in the next days...

I wondered about that myself, I assumed I must be doing something wrong when I found that range not working properly.

I guess I will give the new software a try.

How can you say the 500uV vertical range is faulty or not working properly on the DS1000Z series? It's not a supported feature on the model - it's like saying the non-existent 2G sample rate is not working properly.

If anything is faulty, it's the keygen hacks which are causing that range to appear on the DSO display; it's likely a DS2000 code remnant in the FW (the UltraVision FWs are filled with code from the entire line) which is being incorrectly activated by the keygens.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 11:41:17 pm by marmad »
 

Offline 8086

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2014, 11:25:27 pm »

I wonder whether the faulty 500uV resolution was fixed? Maybe I should test that in the next days...

I wondered about that myself, I assumed I must be doing something wrong when I found that range not working properly.

I guess I will give the new software a try.

How can you say the 500uV vertical range is faulty or not working properly on the DS1000Z series? It's not a supported feature on the model - it's like saying the non-existent 2G sample rate is not working properly.

If anything is faulty, it's the keygen hacks which are causing that range to appear on the DSO display; it's likely DS2000 code in the FW (the FWs are filled with code from the entire UltraVision series) which is being incorrectly activated by the keygens.

I guess that's the answer then, I didn't know that was the case. Updating won't make it work then, which is fine by me, it would have been a bonus if it had.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2014, 11:42:50 pm »
I guess that's the answer then, I didn't know that was the case. Updating won't make it work then, which is fine by me, it would have been a bonus if it had.

Well, perhaps it's an option feature they will offer and sell at a later date - but at this point in time, it's not.
 

Offline jadew

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2014, 01:54:47 pm »
The problem with the 500 uV/div is that not even the 1 mV/div is working properly. It has triggering issues.
 

Offline dougg3

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2014, 06:38:12 pm »
Has anyone figured out how to decode .wfm files saved from the DS1000Z series? Obviously I can load them directly on the scope, but it would be nice to look at them on a computer. Unfortunately they seem to be in a completely different format from .wfm files saved from the DS2000 series, so none of the existing tools (that I have found so far) are compatible with it.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2014, 01:23:34 am »
One ADC for all channels would indicate an analog channel switch which seems rather unlikely given the existence of inexpensive 8 bit 1 GSample/second ADCs and the difficulty of high speed analog multiplexing.  Inexpensive designs have an ADC on every channel but are digitally multiplexed with one memory bus and one bank of memory which is what limits the record sizes and sample rates when multiple channels are used.

Well, I own one so can confirm it drops to 250MSa/s and 6Mpts with all 4 channels active.

The ADC costs $80 for a single gigasample channel. That's not particularly cheap for a $580 instrument. I think internally the ADC is probably implemented as 4x250MSa/s channels with an internal multiplexer. Someone linked to the ADC datasheet previously  but I can't find that anymore. The data is streamed into an FPGA which has ~32MB of DDR2 and ~1MB of SRAM. The FPGA probably acts as a "camera" for the Freescale i.MX device which controls the LCD directly (unlike the 2000 series where there is a second FPGA for the display management.)

My reply was directed toward Suffer1981de but I should have been more clear.

If one 1 GS/s ADC was shared among four channels, then the analog channel switch would need to multiplex four vertical channels together and be fast enough to settle within the sampling period which would be very difficult.  Some early slow DSOs (but higher bandwidth than the DS1074Z!) worked this way but they were quickly replaced with designs that used digital multiplexing and separate digitizers.

Earlier Rigol oscilloscopes and I assume this one use separate digitizers for each channel which may themselves be composed of interleaved ADCs and have a set of channel switches which can direct each input channel to multiple interleaved digitizers for higher sampling rates when using fewer than 4 channels.  This is a pretty standard design which has been around for 30+ years now.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2014, 01:58:20 am »
Earlier Rigol oscilloscopes and I assume this one use separate digitizers for each channel which may themselves be composed of interleaved ADCs and have a set of channel switches which can direct each input channel to multiple interleaved digitizers for higher sampling rates when using fewer than 4 channels.  This is a pretty standard design which has been around for 30+ years now.

The correct information about the ADC has already been known for some time: the DSO has been opened and photographed already a few times by different people - it uses a single ADC. In fact, so does the Rigol DS2000 as well - and the DS4000 uses 2 ADCs for 4 channels. And these are all of Rigol's newest DSOs. In fact, many of the newer Chinese DSOs introduced in the last 3 years or so are using just a single ADC (or 2 for 4 channels).
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 02:08:51 am by marmad »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2014, 03:06:04 am »
Earlier Rigol oscilloscopes and I assume this one use separate digitizers for each channel which may themselves be composed of interleaved ADCs and have a set of channel switches which can direct each input channel to multiple interleaved digitizers for higher sampling rates when using fewer than 4 channels.  This is a pretty standard design which has been around for 30+ years now.
The correct information about the ADC has already been known for some time: the DSO has been opened and photographed already a few times by different people - it uses a single ADC. In fact, so does the Rigol DS2000 as well - and the DS4000 uses 2 ADCs for 4 channels. And these are all of Rigol's newest DSOs. In fact, many of the newer Chinese DSOs introduced in the last 3 years or so are using just a single ADC (or 2 for 4 channels).
This confusion is why I tried to distinguish digitizer from ADC in my post.  I would not consider a single IC with 4 ADCs to be a single ADC.

I looked for detailed information about this particular model and did not find much.  Do you have a link?

This discussion thread says it has 4 ADCs in the form of a quad but the photo looks to me like there is a single quad 1 GS/s ADC and the lower sample rate with multiple channels is caused by limited memory bandwidth on the digital side because I see no analog multiplexing which is what I suggested originally:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2014, 01:12:02 pm »
This confusion is why I tried to distinguish digitizer from ADC in my post.  I would not consider a single IC with 4 ADCs to be a single ADC.

I looked for detailed information about this particular model and did not find much.  Do you have a link?

This discussion thread says it has 4 ADCs in the form of a quad but the photo looks to me like there is a single quad 1 GS/s ADC and the lower sample rate with multiple channels is caused by limited memory bandwidth on the digital side because I see no analog multiplexing which is what I suggested originally:

Ahh... semantics. I assumed most people involved in the discussion were using the term 'ADC' to refer to actual packages - especially since the original poster of the question, poorchava, used the phrase, "...one ADC unit..." when posing his question.

I also assumed that most of the participants understood that 1 ADC package per 2 channels means a dual channel ADC chip which is internally interleaved for one channel - and 1 ADC package per 4 channels means a quad channel ADC chip which is internally interleaved for one or two channels (as tom66 explained quite clearly). There have been many discussions on this board on this topic - involving the Owons, Rigols, and other brands using similar designs employing TI ADC08D500, ADC08D1000, ADC08D1020, etc, or Chinese-made clones of those chips.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 01:20:45 pm by marmad »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2014, 11:57:48 am »
Ahh... semantics. I assumed most people involved in the discussion were using the term 'ADC' to refer to actual packages - especially since the original poster of the question, poorchava, used the phrase, "...one ADC unit..." when posing his question.

I also assumed that most of the participants understood that 1 ADC package per 2 channels means a dual channel ADC chip which is internally interleaved for one channel - and 1 ADC package per 4 channels means a quad channel ADC chip which is internally interleaved for one or two channels (as tom66 explained quite clearly). There have been many discussions on this board on this topic - involving the Owons, Rigols, and other brands using similar designs employing TI ADC08D500, ADC08D1000, ADC08D1020, etc, or Chinese-made clones of those chips.

We do not disagree about how it works but whether the ADCs are interleaved when fewer channels are used or decimated when more channels are used is significant and saying the oscilloscope has 1 ADC because of packaging just makes that determination more difficult although I can imagine marketing being that obtuse.

Has anybody tested these oscilloscopes for aliasing caused by the interleaving?  Since the ADCs are integrated I imagine these oscilloscopes perform pretty well in this respect.  With oscilloscopes that do not support equivalent time sampling I often find that this is the factor limiting their performance.  Agilent has a good application note on the subject:

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2014, 12:11:02 pm »
We do not disagree about how it works but whether the ADCs are interleaved when fewer channels are used or decimated when more channels are used is significant and saying the oscilloscope has 1 ADC because of packaging just makes that determination more difficult although I can imagine marketing being that obtuse.

Has anybody tested these oscilloscopes for aliasing caused by the interleaving?  Since the ADCs are integrated I imagine these oscilloscopes perform pretty well in this respect.  With oscilloscopes that do not support equivalent time sampling I often find that this is the factor limiting their performance.  Agilent has a good application note on the subject:

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf
Thanks for the link. I'm not aware of detailed tests of the ADCs in this DSO (or others in the series). And because of copying and cloning that seems to be rife, some Chinese manufacturers (Rigol especially) seem to be reticent about releasing detailed info about their hardware - Rigol going so far as to grind off chip markings.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2014, 09:05:00 pm »
We do not disagree about how it works but whether the ADCs are interleaved when fewer channels are used or decimated when more channels are used is significant and saying the oscilloscope has 1 ADC because of packaging just makes that determination more difficult although I can imagine marketing being that obtuse.

Has anybody tested these oscilloscopes for aliasing caused by the interleaving?  Since the ADCs are integrated I imagine these oscilloscopes perform pretty well in this respect.  With oscilloscopes that do not support equivalent time sampling I often find that this is the factor limiting their performance.  Agilent has a good application note on the subject:

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf
Thanks for the link. I'm not aware of detailed tests of the ADCs in this DSO (or others in the series). And because of copying and cloning that seems to be rife, some Chinese manufacturers (Rigol especially) seem to be reticent about releasing detailed info about their hardware - Rigol going so far as to grind off chip markings.
I included the link because I knew that it is a rather obscure issue considering its impact.

I have noticed before that a lot of these real time DSOs seem to show a lot more noise on fast edges and high frequency signals then my old DSOs operating with equivalent time sampling so I am suspicious that what the displays are actually showing is aliasing produced by their interleaved ADCs.  I have not had one to test though since becoming aware of the issue.

My 2440 using interleaving to produce 500 MSamples/second is terrible in this regard but equivalent time sampling at 12.5 GSamples/second clears it right up like it should.  I do not think modern DSOs can pull this trick off easily with digital triggering because the aliasing will have already occurred in the trigger path.  My guess is that their solution is to digitally calibrate out the phase and amplitude errors from the interleaving after sampling and before triggering.
 

Offline Robinator

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2014, 03:16:22 pm »
Hello,

I am in the market for a new entry level 4-channel digital scope and am considering both the Rigol DS1074Z, as well as the DS1104Z.  Basically, my question is that if cost is a major factor would I get basically the same scope for my money with the lower model, in terms of the 100 MHz bandwidth if I enter the hacked unlock codes?  In a nutshell, it seems safe to assume that its not worth spending the extra money for the DS1104Z.

I thank everyone in advance for their replies.

~Robert
 

Offline rodpp

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2014, 04:21:44 pm »
Yes, it seems that both models have the same hardware.
 

Offline ElectricGuy

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2014, 06:01:39 pm »
Hi;

I'm an happy owner off a DS1074Z. Until now everything is fine. I upgrade from a DS15052E. I was not disapointed with this either!
I not hacked the scope yet, i will let the trial options expire, then i do the hack.
The version of firmware is 4.0.
Thank you!
Regards
ElectricGuy
 

Offline Warhawk

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2014, 08:12:23 pm »
Hi Guys,
I am thinking about buying a new scope for a "hobby" use. DS1074 seems to be the best solution since a used equipment is not easy to get and prices are much higher in our country. Especially in a comparison with US ebay offers. Shipping costs and import charges kill a good offer as well.
I went through discussions (haven't finished yet) and the biggest concern about DS1074z seems to be a sample rate, which drops down to 250MSPS when four channels are used. I've been thinking about that recently:
Dave reviewed famous HP/Agilent 54622d / 54645d several weeks ago with a good result which is not surprising at all. I think it somehow affected ebay prices and for me it is a hard to get scope. This 200MSPS two channel scope, which I wanted before, costs nearly as much as DS1074z (for me it is about 460€ shipped for Rigol). Is there something else I overlooked ? I think a combination of OLS and ds1074z is hard to beat and a lot of people is still crazy for 54622d according to eBay. Of course I love old true quality test & measurement gear but Rigol has changed the hobby market a lot.
Any comments, recommendations (Yeah I know ds2000) or thoughts?
 

Best Regards
Jiri
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 07:36:52 am by Warhawk »
 

Offline opty

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2014, 08:42:07 pm »
1074Z works for me about 5 months now and I'm very happy with it's performance.

I wish it always came with serial decoders and extended memory, oh well ...

Not limited to 1074z but I do like function to save screenshots/waveforms. I consider myself to be a learning hobbyist and being able to document what I'm doing is nice.

Again not unique to the Rigol scope, one thing I didn't realize was how bandwidth is important in digital electronics. I mean 10Mhz square wave distortion in 70Mhz bandwidth is huuuge ;-), but then in 1MHz range (and even more 100kHz RS-SPI-I2C and analog - where I spend most time) everything seems to be perfect. I wish I could compare to some high quality high bandwidth scope.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 08:44:23 pm by opty »
 

Offline Warhawk

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2014, 07:44:51 am »
Thanks for your input Opty.
Sure, the sampling rate and the bandwidth limitation are obvious, but I have a possibility to use top class equipment at work (Waverunner etc.) also for my hobby stuff, when really needed  :-DMM
Our head of department is a cool guy and don't ask questions when it is pointless...
I use open logic sniffer for digital stuff decoding and I want a scope for stuff like DC-DC converters and analog stuff which I mainly focus to. OK, I am going to order one  :-BROKE
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 10:11:07 am by Warhawk »
 

Offline Warhawk

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2014, 06:20:36 pm »
I've just got my DS1074z from a local distributor. Horayy   :-+ The first impression is very good. Nice compact thing waiting for my first state of the art design.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 10:05:04 pm by Warhawk »
 

Offline DanielS

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2014, 08:43:54 pm »
The DS1047Z is definitely a terrific bang-per-buck value as long as you do not need more than 70MHz bandwidth. I'm not sure anything comes remotely close to matching it even before you factor in the easy all-features and 100MHz upgrade hacks.
 

Offline Warhawk

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2014, 10:21:35 pm »
Grrrr I've just found out that I got the "S" version by an accident. It would be a nice-to-have thing, but I did pay only for the ds1074z :scared: so I need to contact a distributor tomorrow and return it back. What a shame  8)

Interesting thing is that besides the functionality itself and a marking on the package (which I found later), a system menu does not show the "S" presence. System info just shows a ds1074z variant without mentioning the "S". There is nothing on a housing either.

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2014, 01:22:43 pm »
But you do have the Signal generator output on the back?
And you can actually use the Signal generator functionality in the UI as well?
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1074Z Oscillosope
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2014, 05:40:40 pm »
Quote from: Warhawk
I've just found out that I got the "S" version by an accident.   ...besides the functionality itself and a marking on the package...

But you do have the Signal generator output on the back?
And you can actually use the Signal generator functionality in the UI as well?

Nope, no signal output BNCs on the back.  And no sig gen settings in the Menu.  Combined with nothing on the screen SysInfo, or front label, to suggest it's an -S model.  Just those two sig icons in the lower right corner.  That explains why the OP commented here on how strange that was, and now has to send it back.   ::)   :palm:

[/sarcasm]
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 05:46:49 pm by Mark_O »
 


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