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Author Topic: Rigol DS1104Z measuring 435MHz signal  (Read 2583 times)

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Offline frog7227

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Rigol DS1104Z measuring 435MHz signal
« on: January 07, 2016, 03:32:45 PM »
Hello All,
I realize that this shouldn't be possible, but while measuring the output of a car key less entry fob, I managed to read the output signal while looking for the modulation pin and I got the fully modulated carrier. I looked up the FCC id and it happens to broadcast at 433.92 MHz which is quite close to the measured 435 MHz. I was probing with the Rigol RP2200 probe in x10 mode, and this was done on a hacked DS1054Z BTW. I've attached the screenshots of the waveform as well. Can this be a problem that it is so close the the nyquist bandwidth that it could be under sampled? Also due to the high frequency of the signal it bugged up the FFT menu as well (20GSa/s??!).
Here is the FCC page for the key-fob ("Ultra" brand 4 button remote)
fcc.io/mkytxpt4g
Here is a .7z of the .wfm file from the scope.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/151717184/Zip%20files/Waveform_Data_435MHz.7z
Thanks
 

Offline CustomEngineerer

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Re: Rigol DS1104Z measuring 435MHz signal
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2016, 03:43:07 PM »
Any idea what the voltage on the pin that you probed is supposed to be?
 

Offline frog7227

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Re: Rigol DS1104Z measuring 435MHz signal
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 03:49:38 PM »
Any idea what the voltage on the pin that you probed is supposed to be?
I don't have anything that can measure the true voltage, or have any idea what it is supposed to be, however it is powered by a single 12v 23a battery. This remote usually gets like ~50-60ft range to the car with the receiver so I do think it is being attenuated heavily, as the output voltage swing really isn't enough to transmit effectively IMO.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Rigol DS1104Z measuring 435MHz signal
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2016, 04:57:02 PM »
Any idea what the voltage on the pin that you probed is supposed to be?
I don't have anything that can measure the true voltage, or have any idea what it is supposed to be, however it is powered by a single 12v 23a battery. This remote usually gets like ~50-60ft range to the car with the receiver so I do think it is being attenuated heavily, as the output voltage swing really isn't enough to transmit effectively IMO.
How could you know?

The -3dB BW of these units is ~125 MHz so at 3 times that frequency the roll-off will be so horrendous and  give NO possible indication of the true amplitude of the signal.
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Rigol DS1104Z measuring 435MHz signal
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2016, 06:54:21 PM »
I can get a similar waveform if I probe a generated 435 MHz signal at a level of 10 dBm - however the signal is actually stronger with the probe in 1X mode - the ground of the probe is more like an antenna. The scope is filling in a lot of missed sample holes - check out your waveform in dot mode and experiment with sample memory.

End of the day though it is giving you a rough idea that there is a signal being generated but you'll have no idea of the exact frequency, signal level or the modulation. Touching the probe to the circuit will also give it an impedance mismatch that could cause erroneous emissions, change of frequency etc.
It is useful in this specific case to tell you a signal is present but can't really be relied on at all.
VE7FM
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1104Z measuring 435MHz signal
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2016, 10:41:19 PM »
Hello All,
I realize that this shouldn't be possible, but ...

Why not?

You've got 1 GS/s sampling rate so your nyquist frequency is 500MHz. You can see signals up to that frequency.

The thing you can't do is measure their amplitude at that frequency. They will be very attenuated.
 

Offline frog7227

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Re: Rigol DS1104Z measuring 435MHz signal
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2016, 12:06:23 AM »
Any idea what the voltage on the pin that you probed is supposed to be?
I don't have anything that can measure the true voltage, or have any idea what it is supposed to be, however it is powered by a single 12v 23a battery. This remote usually gets like ~50-60ft range to the car with the receiver so I do think it is being attenuated heavily, as the output voltage swing really isn't enough to transmit effectively IMO.
How could you know?

The -3dB BW of these units is ~125 MHz so at 3 times that frequency the roll-off will be so horrendous and  give NO possible indication of the true amplitude of the signal.
I was going off of that there would need to be more signal swing for the modulator (I was probing the output of the PA/oscillator for the 433.92MHz; pic attached) as it’s going to have a small loss and then it would still need a few mW of power for the actual signal leaving the remote.

Hello All,
I realize that this shouldn't be possible, but ...

Why not?

You've got 1 GS/s sampling rate so your nyquist frequency is 500MHz. You can see signals up to that frequency.

The thing you can't do is measure their amplitude at that frequency. They will be very attenuated.
I was thinking it wouldn't be possible because of the attenuation by the frontend, but it must roll off then go back up near this frequency (or much before)

Also, this morning I had a little extra time so I used a 50? terminator + a bit of coax and I got the same thing with a different amplitude, hopefully with less reflections & impedance transformations, but still the amplitude will be useless.  I think all the remote is doing is loading the output to adjust the amplitude to send the code. (at a quick glance at least)  (I just noticed I was on DC coupling not AC this time. :palm: I can redo later if anyone wants me to.)
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS1104Z measuring 435MHz signal
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2016, 12:42:05 AM »
I don't have anything that can measure the true voltage, or have any idea what it is supposed to be, however it is powered by a single 12v 23a battery. This remote usually gets like ~50-60ft range to the car with the receiver so I do think it is being attenuated heavily, as the output voltage swing really isn't enough to transmit effectively IMO.

Looking at the FFT, I just think it's impressive that you managed to get the DS1104Z to sample at 20 GSa/s, and generate a 7 GHz sweep.  ::)  And right down there around your 400 MHz is a tiny blip.  :D
 


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