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Offline Teneyes

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Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« on: January 01, 2015, 08:48:24 PM »
Hello Rigol DS2000 owners, I am starting this new thread for comments and Bug reports related to the
Firmware Release 00.03.03.01.00.

This Release has Fixed the AC Trigger Position offset , I reported in July 2013
This Release has Fixed the AC Trigger Jitter , Wim13 reported in July 2013
This Release has Fixed the Roll to Y-T incorrect Scaling  @500uV/div
                                         , PureVector reported in Dec 2014


This Release has added  Auto Setup input coupling mode, on second page of Util Menu.

BUG  & LIMITATION REPORTS:
    01.00 There is a very rare Bug with Trigger position w/AC triggering (see next Post)
               EV confirms on DS2000

    02.00 The Auto Setup function for AC input is incorrect when there is
             any DC offset to the Input
             Andtfoot confirms on MSO2202A

    03.00 Limitation The Pass/Fail counter has a limit then wraps to negatives 

    04.00  Bug/Limit   Trigger Delay discontinuity, on DS2202 or DS2302
              The delayed trigger point jumps 1nsec.
              The Delay value where this occurs is just past the Integer value of nSec.
              Update this only occurs in 'AUTO' at 700 Pts , the work-around is to set more memory 7KPts
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 03:21:39 AM by Teneyes »
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Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2015, 09:26:48 PM »
Trigger Position Offset Error
This is a rare Bug which occurs at specific frequency inputs, fast rise times, AC input coupling and AC triggering.  I would like to see if anyone else can confirm it also occurs on their DS2000, or DS2000A.

In the first Display below I show that the Position of the Trace is offset early about 8nSec occasionally. The display shows a mask for the correct trace and the count of the errors that occurred over 41,000,000 waveforms to have 25,000 errors.

This error occurs at various frequencies ( 2.017 MHz) , But does not occur at other Frequencies
at 2.020 MHz  I observe No errors in 10,000,000 Wfms (display 2)
at 1.9885 MHz  I observe No errors in 10,000,000 Wfms (display 3) 

I first observed this as I was adjusting the vertical position up and down.  Infinite persistence helps to capture the event.

Note the Waveform update rate was 32.082KHz

My observation has been reported to Rigol, but no confirmation Feedback.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 05:02:38 AM by Teneyes »
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Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2015, 10:13:54 PM »
Auto Setup BUG
With this new Firmware , there is an menu to Select which input Coupling the "Auto" function will set. This Menu in under UTIL. 2nd page. See 1st display below.

2nd display shows the input with DC coupling ( 3Vpp+ .5Vdc), correct
3rd display shows the input with AC coupling ( 3Vpp+ .5Vdc), correct

Now
the 4th display shows the new feature has a Bug that after Auto is Selected then the vertical position is incorrect for AC input coupling

The 5th display shows the position corrects after pushing the Chan 1 'Zero' Position, the Chan 2 Zero, the trigger Zero 

Can anyone Confirm this??


« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 04:44:05 AM by Teneyes »
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Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2015, 11:01:52 PM »
Comment on the new "AUTO SETUP". 
I am thinking this feature was added because Dave Jones made comments in the EEVBLOG #685 that a Scope should have AC coupling as default. But I think Dave is suggesting the default should be AC Trigger Coupling .and Not Input coupling. 
My suggestion to Rigol was to have a menu to Select the Auto setup. with these 3 choices:
          DC input with DC triggering
          DC input with AC triggering
          AC input

What would you like??? ( besides no Bugs Daaaah)
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Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2015, 12:30:02 AM »
This Release has Fixed the Roll to Y-T incorrect Scaling  @500uV/div
                                         , PureVector reported in Dec 2014 Here

Well this small bug has been somewhat Fixed  :palm:
As the DSO is switched from Roll mode to Y-T mode the DSO briefly displays the error screen then stalls and after a break the DSO displays the correct Y-T displays
I find this fix a bit 'Hokey'

I have managed to capture the intermediate display with RUU
Below is:
1  Roll Mode display
2  The brief(200ms) error ( 1/2 scale)
3  Then the Correct 'Y-T' display


« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 09:39:31 AM by Teneyes »
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Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2015, 02:10:56 PM »
Trigger Position Offset Error
This is a rare Bug...

In the first Display below I show that the Position of the Trace is offset early about 8nSec occasionally. The display shows a mask for the correct trace and the count of the errors that occurred over 41,000,000 waveforms to have 25,000 errors.

It's interesting that you can use the scope to count it's own errors.  But perhaps not as interesting for those actually using it to (try to) detect errors in a DUT.
 

Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2015, 05:45:56 PM »
Trigger Position Offset Error
It's interesting that you can use the scope to count it's own errors.  But perhaps not as interesting for those actually using it to (try to) detect errors in a DUT.
Yes, not so much 'interesting' but important to know the characteristics of your equipment for use with the DUT.
I am not getting any confirmation from any user.
I will be aware of this error and to watch for this and compensate. 
Like if rise times are slow ,then not to worry.
If there are many  spikes  on infinite persistence, then the spike  8ns before trigger could be false.

There is high probability that Rigol will not address this as it is too rare and difficult to fix for just Me

I will Note this error, like I did for the jitter and offset error we found 2 years ago :D
And accept Rigol's decision.
It is Not a reason to sell or return my DSO.

I accept that it is just an exercise to investigate:
          "Why always 8ns offset"
          "Why only on fast rise times, with fewer sample points to detect the time of the trigger"
          "Why no errors at some input frequencies"
          "Why # of errors increase as input changes to another frequency, than drops  to No errors"
          "Why no Errors at some vertical positions, yet many errors at other vertical position"
          "Why after a self calibration does the vertical position that Errors occur at change a bit"
 Yes I have referred all this information to Rigol 2 week ago. But I doubt they had time or intention to confirm.
Sure would nice to have someone to confirm at least one observation
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 12:56:37 PM by Teneyes »
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Offline andtfoot

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2015, 07:57:46 PM »
I have an MSO2072A and would like to help confirm the bugs. I may need a hand replicating the setup though.
Before I upgrade the firmware though... In one of the other threads it's mentioned that the firmware upgrade could knock out the CAN decoding (make it not available). Can anyone confirm?
In bug 1, when you say it occurs at 2.017MHz, does that mean you are feeding it a square wave of 2.017MHz?
 

Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2015, 09:49:22 PM »
In one of the other threads it's mentioned that the firmware upgrade could knock out the CAN decoding (make it not available).
In bug 1, when you say it occurs at 2.017MHz, does that mean you are feeding it a square wave of 2.017MHz?
I would think all FW updates must keep installed option keys.
The DS2000 keeps all options.

Yes , the in put is a Square wave. I used the sync output  of a DG4000 ,in order to get a fast rise time pulse. And the frequency was that of the Gen output. I 1st saw the odd error when testing for jitter with 200KHz. Using a Fast pulse makes it easy to see jitter , So once the trace was triggered and I set trigger position to center ,I moved the trace up slowly. That is when I observed the flash of a trace at the incorrect local. So a function gen. Is required.


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Offline andtfoot

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2015, 12:26:20 AM »
In one of the other threads it's mentioned that the firmware upgrade could knock out the CAN decoding (make it not available).
In bug 1, when you say it occurs at 2.017MHz, does that mean you are feeding it a square wave of 2.017MHz?
I would think all FW updates must keep installed option keys.
The DS2000 keeps all options.

Yes , the in put is a Square wave. I used the sync output  of a DG4000 ,in order to get a fast rise time pulse. And the frequency was that of the Gen output. I 1st saw the odd error when testing for jitter with 200KHz. Using a Fast pulse makes it easy to see jitter , So once the trace was triggered and I set trigger position to center ,I moved the trace up slowly. That is when I observed the flash of a trace at the incorrect local. So a function gen. Is required.

Firmware uploaded... I can confirm the options stay the same.

Just trying bug #1 now, and I can't get it to fail yet.

Once the signal was there, I hit Auto, then changed signal and trigger coupling to AC. I then had to drag the waveform up to see it properly ('0V' was right at the top of the signal), and the trigger down for the signal to stay steady.

Setup is:
GW Insek AFG2225
- Trigger out to Rigol MSO2072A chan #1 in with 50R terminator on T-junction
- Trigger activated by 'Burst' signal on Channel 2 of AFG, set to freq of 1.017MHz


Rigol MSO2072A, with 200MHz and all options

Model:MSO2202A
Hardware Ver:2.2
Firmware:00.03.03.01.00

   DSO Vertical System
CH1:On
Scale:3.000e+02mV/
Position:1.002e+03mV
Coupling:AC
Invert:Off
Bandwidth Limit:OFF
Probe Ratio:1X
Impedance:1M
Unit:V

   DSO Horizontal System
Delay:Off
Time Mode:YT
Time Scale:5.000000e-09s
Delay Time Scale:2.000000e-09s
Time Offset:0.000000e+00s
Delay Time Offset:0.000000e+00s

   DSO Acquire System
Acquire Mode:Normal
Memory Depth:140
Average Num:2
Sampling Rate:2.000e+09

   DSO Normal Trigger System
Trigger Mode:Edge
Trigger Source:CH1
Trigger Sweep:Auto
Trigger Coupling:AC
Trigger Noise Reject:Off
Trigger HoldOff:1.000000e-07s
CH1 Level:-0.350000V
Trigger Edge Slope:Rising
 

Offline EV

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2015, 01:27:49 AM »
I can get this bug when rotating vertical gain knob or some others. Why I get now the picture in negative colors from RUU?
 

Offline egonotto

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2015, 01:30:40 AM »
Hallo,

the delay to trigger out is over 200ns with a jitter of 8ns p-p


Best Regards
egonotto
 
 

Offline EV

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2015, 02:48:12 AM »
Here is one picture more without touching any buttons. 100 fails of 165 712 frames.
 

Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2015, 03:10:09 AM »
Firmware uploaded... I can confirm the options stay the same.
Just trying bug #1 now, and I can't get it to fail yet.
Once the signal was there, I hit Auto, then changed signal and trigger coupling to AC. I then had to drag the waveform up to see it properly ('0V' was right at the top of the signal), and the trigger down for the signal to stay steady.

Thanks AndTfoot
First thing,  Did you Self-Cal ?. always need to do after a FW change. ( they must move the Cali Data table, or something).

It looks like the rise time on your input is a bit too slow. 
My Function Gen square wave output is to slow also. But never tried an Arb function.
Can you try some other switch source if you can another Device trigger out.( MB analog scope Z out, used to use that for TDR),

Make sure just Chan 1 only on the Rigol MSO

See EV's pulse
Here's an old waveform fast pulse  :D, just kidding
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Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2015, 03:32:24 AM »
Here is one picture more without touching any buttons. 100 fails of 165 712 frames.
Thanks Eino,
We should state your DSO is a DS2000 non A.

Now if you change the Frequency. slightly , does the Error rate going up and Down?
I do the changes while in the PassFail mode as the Error mask is wide enough to not be an error

And lucky I happen upon errors that are very dependant on the frequency!
Notice 2.202 MHz for My DS2072  +
Frequency(MHz) errors (per 1M Wfrms)
       1.00    46
       2.00     1
       3.00     0
       4.00     0
   
       2.50     0
       2.40     0
       2.30     8
       2.20    78
       2.10    12
       2.00    14
       1.90     8
       1.80     6
       1.70    12
       1.60    19
       1.50     2
       1.40    18
       1.53     4
       1.47     3
LATER Retesting   
       2.200    0
       2.201    4
       2.202   62
       2.203    5
       2.204    2




Also in order to accurately vary the Vertical Position:
I had to use  my PC , Ultra Sigma , the SCPI control panel with the SCPI command:
  Chan1:offs 0.0xx.
 
Yes an obscured artifact (man made) :)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 01:06:54 PM by Teneyes »
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Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2015, 03:45:03 AM »
the delay to trigger out is over 200ns with a jitter of 8ns p-p
Thanks egonotto
That Trigger out Jitter has always been there ,
The delay is different for DC and AC coupled triggering
And the Jitter varies depending on input frequencies and can be small
see Pix for Trigger out on Chan 2
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 04:23:23 PM by Teneyes »
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Offline EV

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2015, 05:26:16 AM »
We should state your DSO is a DS2000 non A.

Now if you change the Frequency. slight , does the Error rate going up and Down?
I do the changes while in the PassFail mode as the Error mask is wide enough to not be an error

I have DS2202 (non A).

Yes I noticed that the error rate changes along with the frequency. I have not noticed this error because I use almost always DC input and DC coupling.
 

Offline eevblognube

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2015, 10:00:12 PM »
Hi, I'm new here, but I was wondering if it is known whether this new firmware will allow feature unlocking.
I really would like to purchase a DS2072A and unlock it.
If unlocking is supported, will it work to upgrade the firmware to the latest and then perform an unlock?
 

Offline andtfoot

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2015, 10:41:42 PM »
Ok, looking at bug 2 (Auto setup).
I can confirm it happens to me; see 1st and 2nd shots.

I also tried the same thing on the internal 1kHz tet signal, and the same signal from the AFG-2225 (without any DC offset). That's the other two.
 

Offline AintBigAintClever

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2015, 04:11:00 AM »
Trig-to-Edge, F7 F6 F7 Utility (the usual extended menu key combo)
Page Down
Project
Here you've got Screen Test, Key Test, Gain1 and Gain2, which I think were there before, but if you Page Down you get a ResumeCal button, Page Down once more to get the return-to-previous-menu button.

Don't know if ResumeCal is a new feature, not sure what it does, but I ended up doing a recal after pressing it because adjusting the scale - with no input - was pushing the trace off the screen. If you cancel a Self-Cal, ResumeCal certainly doesn't pick up where it left off, it just loads new settings that seem to put the traces out-of-whack so you end up doing a Self-Cal again anyway.

EDIT: it's referred to in some older DS4000-related posts on here, so it may have been around for a while. The DS6000 calibration guide says it's "to restore the oscilloscope to its default parameters when the calibration fails or
the oscilloscope fails to save the parameters."
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 10:18:07 AM by AintBigAintClever »
 

Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2015, 06:22:11 AM »
Ok, looking at bug 2 (Auto setup).
I can confirm it happens to me;
Thanks Andtfoot
It looks like when the "Auto" function is selected that the FW subtracts off the DC offset when
only 1/2 the offset should be Subtracted 
I hope that is Clear to RIGOL programmers
See Pics
1    DC input
2    After Auto is selected  when setup to AC input

NOTE: PLease watch the EEVBLOG #685 before commenting on the need for this function.
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Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2015, 06:51:26 AM »
It's interesting that you can use the scope to count it's own errors.  But perhaps not as interesting for those actually using it to (try to) detect errors in a DUT.
Yes the Rigol DSO is comprised of many sub systems:
  The Analog input
  The ADC to Convert to DIgital
  The Sample Memory
  The Trigger Detection system
  THE Display Memory
  The Measurement system
  The Post Analysis systems and Logging

Now, I am using the Post Analysis part of the DSO to check how well the Trigger Detection subsystem is working in my testing,
Does that help explain.
Is there a Flaw in my methods?  anyone?
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Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2015, 07:04:52 AM »
Bug 01.00  Update
  This Bug appears to Happen on DC input also

 So as I had the error repeatably occuring I varied the Memory depth
with these results:
  Depth     Errors/MWfs
   1.4k         127
    14K          53
   140K         320
   1.4M         250
    14M         240 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 04:54:18 PM by Teneyes »
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Offline Teneyes

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2015, 01:17:46 PM »
Bug 01.00  Update

Here is a series of Displays , by using infinite persistence and slowly adjusting the vertical position until there were errors in the position of the triggered trace. always been 8nsec early. Try it yourself :)
The Displays are:
      1. Error in Vectors Mode
      2. Error in Dots at 100mv trigger level
      3. Error in Dots at 200mv trigger level
      4. Error in Dots at 300mv trigger level
      5. Error in Dots at 400mv trigger level
      6. Error in Dots at 100 to 400 mv trigger level  .

What I see with the series of Dot mode displays is that the error only occurs when a sample is at a specific value . as there is no variations in the position of the samples in error trace with infinite persistence selected

Then I see that the Specific value of the sample that causes the Error is = the tigger level, which stands to reason that the trigger detection system is making an Error as to when the trigger point occurred in time.

In the Last display I showed how the persistence held the dots on the display as I change the trigger level higher (so cool)
Note to Clear Persistence (use CLEAR)

Does any one have experience with trigger Comparator ?
apply a  dead band, Ignore sample in Deadzone?

In any Case I told Rigol to:
      "Follow the Yellow Dot Road to a solution"



« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 06:17:04 PM by Teneyes »
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Offline hooverphonique

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Re: Rigol DS2000 Firmware 00.03.03.01.00 Comments and Bugs
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2015, 04:31:08 AM »
that a Scope should have AC coupling as default. But I think Dave is suggesting the default should be AC Trigger Coupling .and Not Input coupling. 

yes, that's definitely what he meant!
 


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