Author Topic: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?  (Read 28546 times)

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Offline Thunk

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Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« on: July 04, 2015, 10:13:19 PM »
I've looking for a good mid range 4 channel oscilloscope. Electronics has been my hobby for a while and I've been using an old Tektronics ebay scope that is now having troubles.  Somehow I managed to get the CFO of the family (my wife) to give me permission  ;).  Anyway...

At one point I decided on the Rigol DS4024.  Base price is $2,650 USD plus I need the serial decode package for $605 USD (by the way, they have a special running now where you get all the serial decodes for the price of one). Good scope with lots of features at a total of 3,255 USD.

The other contender is the Keysight 3014T (100Mhz vs 200Mhz in Rigol to keep the price down a bit). Base price is 3,990 plus the serial decode $1100 for a total of $5,090 USD. Way out of the ballpark. Couldn't even consider it at that price not to mention how much the other software upgrades cost...

But then I found out Keysight is having a special where you get all the software upgrades for free! All those upgrades would cost more than the scope.  Suddenly, the 3000T series became a much better value. And the price became comparable at 3,990 vs 3,255.

So, given the quality of the scopes, options, and price which do you believe is the better value?  The 3000T's 4 meg memory is the only thing about that scope that is sub par, but the 1M update rate...

Thanks!

Thunk
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Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2015, 10:41:59 PM »
I believe these particular Keysight (I keep wanting to type Agilent...what a stupid new name!) scopes are bandwidth upgradeable.  Double check on that. Also, 4M points is not standard...it's an option.  Do you get that for free to?  I could live with 2Mpts, especially with segmented memory. Does it have segmented memory (also an option, I think)?

Anyhow, the large memory depth of Rigol is gimmicky, IMHO.  If you don't absolutely need the 200MHz, this sounds like a slam dunk decision for the Keysight. I may be a bit biased, of course. I've been using HP and Agilent products for 20 years, and seeing those names (and now Keysight...ugh...) gives me some serious warm fuzzies. While my cheapy Rigol scope is a steal for what I paid for it, it's just not in the same class as a Keysight product and doesn't instill nearly the same confidence.  I'm always sanity checking what I see on the screen with the Rigol.

The Keysight with the touch screen is the bees knees. I wish I could come up with some business related project to do that could justify such a scope.
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2015, 12:38:19 AM »
I agree with John. At the 3,990 vs 3,255 I'd go for the Keysight. 1 million vs 100k waveforms per second is worth it.
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2015, 12:43:37 AM »
I have the 4000, don't much care for it.

See here:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/

Unless you need the hackability (maybe the Agilent can be hacked as well, I don't follow it), go for the Agilent.

Online PA4TIM

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2015, 02:35:42 AM »
I was in doubt between the Agilent 3000 and the Hameg HMO3522 (350MHz)
I bought the Hameg (around 3 years ago) and I use it every day. Not a single problem. If I had to choose again I would buy the Hameg again. I had a Rigol before the Hameg, the first 100MHz scope they made, bought it for to much money. I hated that scope so much I gave it away.
Why everybody wants a cheap Rigol I can understand. You do not have much choice in that range. The gap with a real scope is big. But I do not understand why people who are looking for a serious scope even think about buying the expensive Rigols. Even if it performs well (while new), it is still a Rigol.

After I bought my Hameg they found some thing that could be a minor problem in some cases. They send me a new box, collected it the next day and brought it back a few days later, upgraded, calibrated and with a new printed manual. At no cost !!
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Online nctnico

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2015, 02:43:05 AM »
I'd go for the Keysight as well. IMHO Chinese scopes are good if you want something low end but if you spend 4 digits of dollars/euros you are going to be dissapointed by the Chinese.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2015, 02:46:37 AM »
definitely the Keysight!
In Germany right now, you get all 17 options for FREE, if you buy the scope new.
http://www.datatec.de/ac00239.htm
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Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2015, 02:51:36 AM »
But I do not understand why people who are looking for a serious scope even think about buying the expensive Rigols. Even if it performs well (while new), it is still a Rigol.

Yeah, that's pretty much it right there.  For under $400, my 1054Z is unmatched and it does everything I need it to do (I mostly play with audio applications). If I were spending more than maybe $1000 or $2000, Rigol isn't even on my radar. There are just too many high end scopes in roughly the same range.
 

Offline commie

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2015, 04:19:42 AM »
I get the op is strapped for cash and he wants  a good scope for non serious apps and unpaid work? That being the case just get a Rigol 1000 series scope, everyone swears by them and it very unlikely he will run out of bandwidth.I have a DS1104Z and it does everything I want it to do, never hit the bandwidth limit yet.Even so, with this scope it has features which I forget how to use. :scared:

I've just been looking at Keysights 3000 series, £2700.00+20%vat, this scope has that many features, it's simply scary, will you ever need or use them?, and how long will it take to learn all of the features and then when it is needed 6 months down the line you've forgotten how to turn the scope on. |O
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2015, 06:08:57 AM »
I love my DS4014, with the tequipment discount and them dropping the price a bit from what it used to be, I don't think it is a bad value at all.  It can be easily unlocked.  You've got two real ADC's so you can run two channels at 4gsa/s or four channels at 2gsa/s.  I don't doubt that it is NOT in the same class as the Agilent, an Agilent with tons of free options would certainly be attractive.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2015, 06:26:43 AM »
So, given the quality of the scopes, options, and price which do you believe is the better value?  The 3000T's 4 meg memory is the only thing about that scope that is sub par, but the 1M update rate...

If I had to choose between the two then I'd take the Keysight any day. The Rigol DSO4k is a pretty basic scope which in some areas is really awfully poor (i.e. FFT which uses only a few kpoints, no search functionality for the sample memory, ) while accordiing to some DS4k owners I know even with the latest update still suffers from firmware issues. It's essentially a 4ch version of the DS2k.

However, the big question is if it really has to be Rigol or Keysight? Why not a LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000?
http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=466

It's a much better scope than the Keysight DSOX3kT (and even more so than the Rigol DS4k) in any way (10M memory, and much better analysis tools), and for what it can do it's really pretty modestly priced (and LeCroy also often offers some additional discounts).

In my opinion at the moment there's nothing better in this price range.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 06:38:16 AM by Wuerstchenhund »
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Offline JackP

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2015, 06:27:27 AM »
Have you looked at the 2000A series from Keysight? Very similar to the 3000 series, but doesn't have the touch or a few other things like higher bandwidth. But from your post, it seems 200MHz is plenty. Moreover, the 2002A (I have a review coming) is about £800-£900, and is hackable (verified by me) to the 200MHz, 4MPts memory, MSO, all options model. I would recommend spending a little more for the 4 channels though.

EDIT: 1Mpts (sorry)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 06:43:04 AM by JackP »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2015, 06:56:20 AM »
The Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 base models are loss-leaders. You'll have to add a few options to make it actually useful but that increases the price a lot.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline AutomationGuy

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2015, 07:34:14 AM »
There is not too many options to a Wavesrufer 3000. Just MSO, function generator and serial decoder.
It has lots of measurement functions and some statistics. Plus 1GHz FFT. Many documentation features as well. The function generator is not realy needed anyway. You get better external.
But you hardly get a wavesurfer for less than 3000€.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2015, 07:55:46 AM »
With serial decoding (which doesn't include CAN!) and the MSO options the 200MHz version of the Wavesurfer 3000 costs over 5500 euro ex. VAT (I've got a quotation earlier this year). The options make close to 40% of the price! I actually also need CAN decoding so add an extra 890 euro to the price for that and the options make up for almost 50% of the price. I dare the people who claim they can get them cheaper to make these scopes available for less money (or  :-X ).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline AutomationGuy

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2015, 08:10:09 AM »
I paid for my Wavesurfer 3024 + MSO + FG 5K8€ incl. VAT in germany.
There is two serial decode options one for SPI/RS232 which is WS3K-EMB and one for CAN/LIN which is WS3K-AUTO.
They each are abouts 1K€. I don't need them yet. But you can get bandwidth upgrades as well.
The scope has many features which ease my work a bit. I used to work with LeCroy at customer sites and I always liked their scopes.
You can get the wavesurfer 3024 without options for 3800€ incl. VAT.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 08:12:09 AM by AutomationGuy »
 

Offline Thunk

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2015, 12:01:00 AM »
WoW, thanks for all the replies/suggestions!

My main requirements for the scope are:
  • 4 channel
  • 200 Mhz (or 100 expandable to 200 Mhz)
  • SPI & I2C at a minimum upgradable to I2S (I dabble in music / guitar / instrument effects)
  • FFT or spectrum analyzer ability at lower frequencies (typically audio, but occasionally higher -- say 100Mhz at most)
  • Price:  under 4k (lower the better, of course)
  • Various trigger / math functions that all scopes come with now so I won't list them

Here is what I'm reading from above:

Rigol
- Don't bother at this price range

Keysight
- Can't go wrong with the 3000T, solid contender
- Current free software upgrades include the AWG, freq counter, all decoding, etc.
- Can buy 100Mhz and upgrade to 200Mhz
- Very nice hardware FFT (not software)

Teledyne/LeCroy
- I haven't researched these because I heard they are rebranding a cheap Chinese scope as their own.  No idea which models are good.
- People have suggested their 3000 series, but they don't show scope prices or option prices so it's hard to compare (maybe I missed it on the site?)
- Are they bandwidth software upgradable? Can I get a 100Mhz and upgrade it later to 200 or more?
- Obviously I have homework investigating these

Tektronix
- Well, after watching Dave's review of the MDO4000 ... more bad points than good points IMO.
- Let me know if anyone uses this scope please.  I could use another opinion

Back in the day Tektronix was the bees knees; if you were anyone you owned a Tektronix scope (or HP).  It's funny nobody mentioned them on this thread ... must indicate something...
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Offline AutomationGuy

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2015, 12:24:35 AM »
You can find LeCroy prices in DigiKey.
Which budget scope is not build in china? Yes LeCroy labels the wavesurfer as a budget scope.
Your Apple products are build in china as well.

Btw my scope has a calibration protocol from the US. Final assembly was probably in US.
200 MHz is the minimum bandwidth you can get at the wavesurfers.
Look at TEquipment for "WS3024-BW-500" if you wanne know more about bandwidth upgrades. Never ordered one yet.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2015, 12:45:20 AM »
Tek scopes are nice, especially their lower end scopes.  When you start getting in the $3000 to $4000 range...the more serious scopes...Agilent's scopes are just better overall in my opinion, but Tek scopes still hold their own.  Anytime there's a real choice to be made between Agilent and anyone else, Agilent nearly always comes out on top.  There are exceptions, of course.  Keithley comes to mind, but Keithley doesn't even bother making a bench scope.

I really wonder how all these other scope manufacturers keep their lines alive.  Teledyne Lecroy for example.  Why would anyone buy a Teledyne Lecroy scope? In 20 years I can truthfully say that I have NEVER seen a Teledyne Lecroy oscilloscope in person.  Ever. Every lab I've ever worked in has been packed with HP/Agilent and Tektronics scopes.  Keithley and Agilent meters.  Agilent power supplies. Even GW Instek power supplies.

It's really hard for me to imagine how anyone looking for a new entry level scope ends up with anything but a Rigol, and how anyone looking for midrange and better scopes ends up with anything but an Agilent, or maybe a Tektronix.
 

Offline AutomationGuy

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2015, 12:51:46 AM »
I have been working for many big companies in germany and switzerland and they have often LeCroy in the high end range.
I think LeCroy used to be a swiss company. Not anymore its teledyne now. Thats why you don't find them often in the US.
But you are right their scopes are not in the entry level.
We don't have many Agilent/Keithley scopes in german companies.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 12:55:28 AM by AutomationGuy »
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2015, 01:05:24 AM »
I wonder how it is elsewhere? Lecroy seems to be practically nonexistent in the US.
 

Offline fcb

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2015, 01:05:57 AM »
LeCroy are American.
 

Offline JackP

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2015, 01:43:19 AM »
Anything in particular wrong with the DSO-X 2002A? £900 for 2 channels, all options (hacked obviously), or ~£1400 for 4 channels. Maybe they don't do I2S? Not as many math options?

Tek scopes are not great at the entry level: expensive, less features...

I'n sure Wuerstenchund (or whatever his name is) will tell you about Lecroy!
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Online nctnico

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2015, 03:10:48 AM »
I'd go for the 4 channel scope. Even if it is just because you get the double memory length when using 2 channels (1 from 1&2 and 1 from 3&4).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2015, 06:17:26 AM »
Wikipedia has an entry on the LeCroy roots.
Quote
The first Digital Storage Oscilloscope (DSO) was invented by Nicolet Test Instrument of Madison, Wisconsin.[citation needed] It was a low speed ADC (1 MHz, 12 bit) used primarily for vibration and medical analysis.[citation needed] The first high speed DSO (100 MHz, 8 bit) was invented by Walter LeCroy (who founded the LeCroy Corporation, based in New York, USA) after producing high-speed digitizers for the research center CERN in Switzerland. LeCroy remains one of the three largest manufacturers of oscilloscopes in the world.
It was an American company making them for CERN. I just think the popularity has to do with the the target demographic. LeCroy seems to cater more to scientific research while Tek and Keysight have a reputation with Engeneeirs.

If I was getting a mid range scope I have no idea what I would get. Would try to avoid a Windows scope though, which could be challenging. I have nightmares from supporting windows environments in the late 90s, and ever since then I am allergic to anything Microsoft.
 


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