Flir DM93 Multimeter

[Wytnucls]

How can you say that your 61E hasn't drifted more than 0.03%, when its best accuracy is 0.1%+2. Over what period did you test it and how often? What bench DMMs did you measure it against? What are their best resolution counts and when where they last calibrated? Did you keep records or are you just pulling a number out of thin air?

My 61E and 71s were measured against a 1,200,000 count Gossen 30M, with a one year calibration certificate, with all meters kept in a air-conditioned room, which has a constant temperature of 21C, 24/7.
The chart shows LSD variations over time and no, they're not good for the 61E. You can basically forget about that last digit, unless you tweak your DMM every couple of months.
That's my experience with just one meter of course, but I don't think I am the only one to have noticed large drifts on the 61E.

[sync]

I compare it to the UT71D, because they both use the same DMM IC and have roughly the same specs. It is not a question of whether the 71 is better or worse than FLIR's first DMM, but why it should cost so much more.

What is the point that they use the same DMM IC? It doesn't matter!

How can you say that your 61E hasn't drifted more than 0.03%, when its best accuracy is 0.1%+2. Over what period did you test it and how often? What bench DMMs did you measure it against?

HP34401A, Fluke 8840A, Keithley 199 and Siemens B1046. Which are stable to each other. I tested the UT-61E a few times. But It doesn't matter to me. It's the cheap meter for quick and dirty stuff. I use my bench meters usually.

The chart shows LSD variations over time and no, they're not good for the 61E. You can basically forget about that last digit, unless you tweak your DMM every couple of months.

You can forget the last digit on nearly any DMM. On the Gossen M30 you can forget the last 2 digits. Is it a bad meter?

Resolution != accuracy != precision

[Lightages]

I just re-viewed the videos by Martin. The Flir DM93 looks like a really well built Uni-T instead of a Fluke or Brymen. The biggest things I don't like is the big shiny plastic window and panel that will show its age very quickly after it gets used a bit and I really don't like the totally integrated case and its molded in probe holders. The input protection and input layout look very well done.  The test leads look to be from the same manufacturer as Brymen uses. 100 hours operation on 6 AAA batteries? 

The operation of the meter seems to be nice and fairly logical. It has good specs and has all the features most people would want. The things it has over some other meters in this class is the internal data logging and Bluetooth. If they eventually supply software to connect to it that is free then this is a big plus. I see on the google play store that there is a free app for the infrared instruments. To me, at this point, this looks like a Uni-T UT71X series done the right way.

What can this be compared to?

Well the Brymen BM525 has similar accuracy, only 10,000/6000 count, better built IMHO, internal 87,000 logging at up to 20 times per second, and costs around $315 USD shipped to your door, if you include the data cable.

The Agilent U1271A can be had for around $350 plus shipping, if applicable, and the bluetooth module costs around another $50. It has similar accuracy and some more features. So for the same price, would you get the Agilent or the Flir? I think with the 300 hour battery life on 4 AAA batteries might be a big decision point too.

[Wytnucls]

The point is that the DMM IC is the heart of the meter and governs quality, resolution and accuracy. That's what usually determines a major part of the street value of any meter. Any bells and whistles attached to that IC, would have to be exceptional to justify such a price hike.
Like I said, so far, I don't see that happening.

I know the difference between accuracy and resolution.
In my experience, the 61E drifts out of accuracy specifications over a period of three months, which is not normal. Let's see what other 61E owners have to say.

[Lightages]

As far as the off topic subject of the UT61E goes, I was not too upset when I blew mine up with a 5kV test to see if it would survive. Mine was hard to keep on spec with its drifting.

[sync]

The point is that the DMM IC is the heart of the meter and governs quality, resolution and accuracy. That's what usually determines a major part of the street value of any meter. Any bells and whistles attached to that IC, would have to be exceptional to justify such a price hike.

This DMM IC is only a part of the quality of a meter. It has to be good enough. You can build good or bad meters with it. And the UT-71 is not good. A good meter is not only defined by it's resolution, accuracy and precision. It's also about build quality, features, handling and other stuff. For example the UT-71 need about 180ms to reliable trigger the continuity beeper.

[Wytnucls]

You keep on harping about the flaws of the UT71, but you haven't explained why the FLIR costs so much money, while it is made in China and has been fitted with cheap components (Cyrustek, Holtek and some Chinese uC). This is the crux of the discussion.
Maybe because the test leads are made of silicon (sic), according to their datasheet.

[sync]

You keep on harping about the flaws of the UT71, but you haven't explained why the FLIR costs so much money, while it is made in China and has been fitted with cheap components (Cyrustek, Holtek and some Chinese uC). This is the crux of the discussion.

What is the problem with Cyrustek, Holtek and chinese uC? The price of a product is not only defined by it's BOM. Do you thing the Fluke ICs are much more expensive? I doubt that. Any why the price of the ICs matter? 40000 counts are not challenging.

What the problem with made in china? Of course they made a lot of cheap junk. But I have some high quality and expensive products made in china. No problem.

[Wytnucls]

Look, this discussion isn't going anywhere. You obviously think this is a fantastic meter, worth every penny and a contender for the Fluke 87 coveted place in industry.
I think this is a meter which is barely worth more than a UT71D. Let's wait and see how much market share they take away from Fluke in the near future.

[sync]

Look, this discussion isn't going anywhere. You obviously think this is a fantastic meter, worth every penny and a contender for the Fluke 87 coveted place in industry.

No I don't. I don't know this meter. I only saw Martin's videos and my impression is that it could be a good meter. You have compared it with the UT-71 and put it on the same level except input protection. Which I think is silly. But you are right. The discussion going nowhere.

Let's wait and see how much market share they take away from Fluke in the near future.

Not much. A lot of people buy Flukes because it's a Fluke and their experience with them. Nothing wrong about that. It's a very difficult market for a newcomer.

[Lightages]

I think this is a meter which is barely worth more than a UT71D. Let's wait and see how much market share they take away from Fluke in the near future.

I would have to agree with you. This meter is a UT71D with proper input protection and huge battery consumption with Bluetooth thrown in. Maybe it is built a bit better but it certainly isn't going to survive the same crap you could throw at a Fluke in this price range.Time will tell if it is any good or not.

[torr032]

Which multimeter is the best under 100 - 150$. I need one for the electronics,with true rms and double display, obviosliy to be fast ranging and continuity. I currently have ut61e, I am searching for something better.

[echen1024]

Which multimeter is the best under 100 - 150$. I need one for the electronics,with true rms and double display, obviosliy to be fast ranging and continuity. I currently have ut61e, I am searching for something better.

Start a new topic. I would, however, go take a looksee at Brymen meters.

[nanofrog]

Which multimeter is the best under 100 - 150$. I need one for the electronics,with true rms and double display, obviosliy to be fast ranging and continuity. I currently have ut61e, I am searching for something better.

Decent one (i.e. good input protections as well as some nice features) with dual display in that budget is going to be hard to come by IMHO. Budget fits a BM257 (big display, but not dual; runs ~$135USD). Dual display from Brymen would start with a BM521 (&up), but it runs $250USD (here).

I suspect you'll have to compromise somewhere to get new (i.e. decrease wants, skip/reduce in areas such as safety, reliability, confidence <drifts a lot>, or increase budget sorts of things), or try for a used unit.

[torr032]

Brymen BM867 could be the best for me but where can I buy him?

[nanofrog]

Brymen BM867 could be the best for me but where can I buy him?

You could contact another member iloveelectronics (Franky), or via his eBay store and see when he can get you one, and for how much (bit cheaper if you PM here, and skip eBay, as he doesn't have to cover their fees that way). A number of members have purchased from him via either method, and have had good things to say.

Another alternative, is tme.eu (BM867 page; runs ~$20 shipping to the US IIRC).

[Lightages]

People need to stop asking where to buy something and not disclose their country! You waste everyone's time.

[jarvis]

You keep on harping about the flaws of the UT71, but you haven't explained why the FLIR costs so much money, while it is made in China and has been fitted with cheap components (Cyrustek, Holtek and some Chinese uC). This is the crux of the discussion.
Maybe because the test leads are made of silicon (sic), according to their datasheet.

From Martin's video, the uC seems to be Fujitsu's chip not Chinese. I think this meter is made in Taiwan.

[Wytnucls]

It is a Fujitsu uC:

Fujitsu New 8FX MCU is a high-performance 8-bit microcontroller with different size of embedded flash memory. The new series use the F2MC-8FX CISC CPU, which offers industry-leading class performance of 8-bit microcontrollers unit enabling more instructions to be executed per cycle. On top of delivering the industry class performance of the MCU, this series MCU also deliver low power efficient MCU products for the customer’s usage.

This new series MCU also feature a variety of on-chip timers, A/D converters, analog and digital peripheral and communication interface such as LIN-UART (Local Interconnect Network Universal Asynchronous Receiver-Transmitter), CAN (controller area network), I²C (Inter-Integrated Circuit) interface for various application usage.


The 71 series uses a TI uC, which is no slouch either.



http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dlmain/Datasheets-12/DSA-233863.pdf

[Wytnucls]

As a correction, on closer inspection, I just found out that the UT71 range has an external voltage reference and is not using the Cyrustek ES51966F internal reference of 50ppm/C. Instead they have a Maxim 6190A rated at less than 5ppm/C and a long term stability of 50ppm/1000hrs.
That would explain the good stability and accuracy I experienced since first ownership.

[rvalente]

Dave, I could not find your DM93 review and teardown!