Author Topic: Rigol DS4024 opinions  (Read 2198 times)

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Offline John B

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Rigol DS4024 opinions
« on: October 02, 2018, 04:48:49 pm »
I think I have narrowed down my choices amongst the Rigol scope to either the DS 4024 or 4022. Im willing to spend around 3k, give or take.

Before I take the plunge, I thought I would check if these are a good choice, as I found some references to firmware bugs, however those opinions are now years old.

These 4000 series come bundled with a 350MHz and serial decode upgrade.

I mainly use the scope for audio and general use (power supplies, microcontrollers etc), so while the bandwidth is overkill for audio, the sample rate and sample memory is good for capturing single shot events.

Are there some good places in Australia for purchasing scopes? I'm aware of Emona, but that limits the choices to Rigol.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2018, 05:17:43 pm »
Have a look at what Trio Test have to offer.
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2018, 06:49:19 pm »
Rigol DS4000/MSO4000 is an outdated platform on which not many new software updates will follow!

Probably better to focus on the new Rigol DS7000/MSO7000 series!
 

Online TurboTom

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2018, 06:57:50 pm »
If you deliberately want a DS4000 series instrument and you don't mind "improving" it a little, just get the DS4014 and use "riglol". You can crank it up to the 500MHz version.

As Pascal told, the 4000 series is rather old and I wouldn't expect any significant firmware improvements anymore (not that there are many bugs left, but there are so many functions that are solved better even on the entry level DS1000Z series). Concerning the basic functions of a digital oscilloscope, it's a real performer though.

Nevertheless, especially since you're specifying audio stuff as one of your primary applications, you may want to have a look at one of the 10 bit Rohde&Schwarz machines, their higher resoloution may make a big difference. And they are recently released instruments with several new approaches.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2018, 07:30:19 pm »
If you deliberately want a DS4000 series instrument and you don't mind "improving" it a little, just get the DS4014 and use "riglol". You can crank it up to the 500MHz version.

As Pascal told, the 4000 series is rather old and I wouldn't expect any significant firmware improvements anymore (not that there are many bugs left, but there are so many functions that are solved better even on the entry level DS1000Z series). Concerning the basic functions of a digital oscilloscope, it's a real performer though.

Nevertheless, especially since you're specifying audio stuff as one of your primary applications, you may want to have a look at one of the 10 bit Rohde&Schwarz machines, their higher resoloution may make a big difference. And they are recently released instruments with several new approaches.

I agree with Tom, RTB2000 series might be much better for the purpose. And could be had for that kind of money. Only thing it doesn't have is 50 OHm inputs, but you might not need them ...
 

Offline trukresom

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2018, 08:23:56 pm »
I am owner of 5 Rigol Instruments a DS4054, DSA815-TG, DG4162, DG1062Z and a DM3068.
The DS4054 is by far the instrument which I regret having bought for the following
reasons:

- Compared to other scopes the trace noise is excessive. Sensitivities below
  10 mV/div make only sense with averaging.
 
- Just at the end of the warranty period, the buttons [Run/Stop] and [Single]
  ceased to work.
 
- In approx. 30% of the cases after power-on the scope enters a state where nearly
  all knobs show an erratic behaviour. For example turning the timebase knob in
  both directions lowers the time/div to finally stuck at 1ns/div.
  Same for vertical sensitivity.
 
- In many cases when I connect a 10x probe (RP3500) it is not recognized correctly.
  Sometimes the input even switches to 50 Ohms.
 

Offline MrW0lf

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« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 08:44:18 pm by MrW0lf »
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2018, 09:04:22 pm »
Only thing it doesn't have is 50 OHm inputs,

I use these:

https://www.rfshop.co.uk/index.php/feed-through-terminations/feed-through-terminations-bnc-50ohm-1mohm-f-bmbf0-1g2w50.html

www.jyebao.com.tw/upload/F-BMBF0-1G2W50.pdf

Or:

https://www.picotech.com/accessories/bnc-terminators-leads/50r-terminator-bnc

Of course you can use pass-trough terminators. An it is fine for lower frequencies. But once you pass 100 MHz they are nowhere close to being the same as a native well made 50 Ohm input.
And for OP's use they might be just enough when needed. Which for audio use won't be too often or never.
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2018, 09:30:16 pm »
Of course you can use pass-trough terminators. An it is fine for lower frequencies. But once you pass 100 MHz they are nowhere close to being the same as a native well made 50 Ohm input.

I know you know... ;) But... for starters it needs to be scientifically proven that Rigol native > Made in Taiwan.  I cannot even find 50Ω max voltage/wattage rating in Rigol spec which is very important. Most of us are not used to think about the fact that you are dissipating RF power inside scope when using native 50Ω. So it might be :'( if yank RF gen throttle to "full military power".

Edit: Found it, on front panel it says 5V RMS. Modest 0.5W then and not clear if have any sort of protection.

Edit2: Looking at some other scope specs:
Scope X: Overvoltage protection: 5.5 V RMS (50 Ω inputs)
Scope Y: Maximum input voltage: 5 V (RMS), max. 30 V (Vp)
Rigol 7000: 50 Ω 5 Vrms
I do like when s**t's in the spec.

It makes me sort of nervous that spec of 7000 finally looks like normal spec for normal scope. Maybe will even pass my 32768Hz torture test... :o
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 10:16:58 pm by MrW0lf »
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2018, 10:36:56 pm »
They will all be about same 5V ...

You have to put attenuator in the  front.. Which has to be properly power rated too by the way.. Which I know you know .. ^-^...

50 Ohm inputs are not needed most of the time...

It makes me sort of nervous that spec of 7000 finally looks like normal spec for normal scope. Maybe will even pass my 32768Hz torture test... :o

I always figured you would be the first one to say it like it is.. Good or bad, just facts.
If it's good , that is great news for everyone.. More choice, more competition. I want it it to be good. And new Siglent that will be released, I hope that one is great too..
That is great for us.

Regards


 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2018, 10:51:53 pm »
Which I know you know .. ^-^...

I know you know I know...  :phew: However, what I do not know is "overvoltage protection" also common or you just fry it? Also if you work almost at abuse level for long time would heated up 50Ω resistor change input characteristics eg maybe heat up other crap around it etc... Hm... Somehow I like concept of external pass thru more at least for moderate freq range.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2018, 11:16:34 pm »
Which I know you know .. ^-^...

I know you know I know...  :phew: However, what I do not know is "overvoltage protection" also common or you just fry it? Also if you work almost at abuse level for long time would heated up 50Ω resistor change input characteristics eg maybe heat up other crap around it etc... Hm... Somehow I like concept of external pass thru more at least for moderate freq range.

Nope, you pretty much just fry it... It will have some ESD resilience, much better that SA that are notorious for damaging inputs if you look it wrong...

Some scopes will kick you out of 50 Ohm mode if you go for higher V/div, or on a overrange.. That serves as a protection of a sort..
 

Online TurboTom

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2018, 01:48:35 am »
FYI, here's just a quick comparison of my "MSO4014+" (500MHz) internal vs. external 50 Ohms termination (Chinese BNC-Through terminator with 3*150 Ohms 1210 resistors in parallel), fed with a square wave signal with <50ps rise time (heritage of Leo Bodnar). First I tested without bandwidth limitation and then again with a 200MHz limit since this was the "class" of oscilloscope that the OP was refering to. The screenshots with the feed-through terminator have the corresponding trace of the internal terminator as a reference in the background.

Unfortunately, my VNA currently is borrowed to a friend so I cannot check the performance of the external terminator, yet a quick test with my SSA3000X also reveals part of the (sad) truth: The SSA had been normalized with the return loss bridge prior to the tests. Trace A resembles a measurement with a Minicircuits SMA termniator directly at the test port of the RLB. Trace B is the BNC-through terminator, directly attached via a SMA/BNC adapter (no cable in between). Up to about 200MHz, it at least stays in the ballpark of the Minicircuits terminator. Trace C shows the same configuration as in trace B, but now connected to input A of my MSO4000 (1MOhm configuration -- well  :'(). Trace D resembles the input of the MSO configured to 50 Ohms and the BNC-through terminator removed. Depending on the range switch of the scope input, return loss may vary. The trace shown is one of the better results...

It seems that the feed-through terminator is fairly usable up to 100Mhz and with some compromise, to 200MHz. Above this, ...meh...

Depending on the quality of the feed-through terminator, you may get better results. But the input capacity of the (average) scope will mess up the return loss of even the most accurate terminator. I guess for proper upper VHF performance, you need a scope with a front-end particularly made for that.

Hope this makes sense....Cheers,
Thomas
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2018, 04:13:53 am »
If you deliberately want a DS4000 series instrument and you don't mind "improving" it a little, just get the DS4014 and use "riglol". You can crank it up to the 500MHz version.

Nevertheless, especially since you're specifying audio stuff as one of your primary applications, you may want to have a look at one of the 10 bit Rohde&Schwarz machines, their higher resoloution may make a big difference. And they are recently released instruments with several new approaches.
I agree with Tom, RTB2000 series might be much better for the purpose. And could be had for that kind of money. Only thing it doesn't have is 50 OHm inputs, but you might not need them ...
Same here. I looked at the DS4000 myself as well but based on all the issues (and no fixes) reported by people on this forum it seems more like abandonware.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2018, 05:37:32 am »
quick test with my SSA3000X

Would RF magician call your test "return loss" test, not "insertion loss" (just to be sure)?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 05:43:08 am by MrW0lf »
 

Online TurboTom

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2018, 07:25:28 am »
@MrWolf
Since I considered the 'scope input (either internally terminated or high-impedance and equipped with the BNC feed-through terminator) as a "black box" that should represent a good 50 Ohms termination, I'ld call it a return loss test. The measured level simply represents the amount of reflected power in relation to the injected power of that "black box". One has to consider that the directivity of my bridge itself, terminated with the Minicircuits SMA terminator, is limited to approx. 33dB at 1GHz so figures better than this cannot be resolved. Yet, since the figures I found were way worse than that, I consider the results fairly accurate.
I hope I interpreted your question correctly...  ;)
 

Offline John B

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2018, 07:38:50 am »
Well, lets put aside the audio application for the moment. For the moment the bigger priority would be single shot capturing as I only have a CRO. So I'm also willing to look at the DS1000 or 2000 series. I can always spend more and get more scopes later  ;D
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2018, 07:42:02 am »
I hope I interpreted your question correctly...  ;)

Think yes, I just do not deal with UHF daily (yet) and got confused because initial runs with SNA were somewhat unexpected. Anyway game is on, I like producing graphs... ;)
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2018, 07:53:15 am »
Well, lets put aside the audio application for the moment. For the moment the bigger priority would be single shot capturing as I only have a CRO. So I'm also willing to look at the DS1000 or 2000 series. I can always spend more and get more scopes later  ;D
Then look at the GW Instek GDS-2000E scopes. Mature firmware (and if a bug is found it gets fixed in a timely manner). These scopes also have low noise, input filtering and 1Mpts FFT which are nice features for audio purposes. One thing to look for is what an oscilloscope can actually do with deep memory. Things like searching for anomalies and calculations (math) on the actual waveform data and not on decimated data.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2018, 08:00:47 am »
I have a DS4014 bought as a demo unit directly from Rigol and can say that, if the price is right (I bought it for quite a good price three years ago), it is an excellent scope. Granted, I didn't pay the DS4054 prices nor bought it early, where the bugs were quite blocking and were not fixed for a long time.

The vast majority of criticism was warranted and, as you suspected, belonged to early releases of the firmware. It is a mature platform that is not updated anymore, but TBH all oscilloscopes will reach that point. The other hidden benefit is the ability to fully unlock it to get 500MHz with very decent decoders that run circles on its cheaper brothers (DS1000Z and DS2000)

A few issues remain (the higher input noise is one of them) but the firmware is quite solid. I have no criticisms to the hardware as well - it has been working quite well over the years.

Again, it is always a matter of price/performance. The DS7000 and the Rhode & Schwarz could be good options as well, but at this price point you will have a lot of models that fit the bill, even options from Keysight's eBay store. If used is an option, you could even look at some older but quite featured options.

One additional detail: for audio you will not necessarily care for bandwidth - at this price point, 100MHz is quite enough for lots of applications.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2018, 08:02:53 am »
Well, lets put aside the audio application for the moment. For the moment the bigger priority would be single shot capturing as I only have a CRO. So I'm also willing to look at the DS1000 or 2000 series. I can always spend more and get more scopes later  ;D
How many channels must you have ?
If only 2 then a SDS1202X-E is an excellent choice, if 4 then SDS1104X-E is great too.
Dave has done teardowns on each, check them out.
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Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2018, 08:15:48 am »
Ok here goes... Measurements made with RF Explorer SNA. Return loss bridge is this:
http://transverters-store.com/rf_bridge/rf_bridge.html

I do not have second SMA terminator, only one went to bridge REF. SNA software does not offer much control so scale little erratic:

BNC terminator, normalized at adapter:



BNC pass thru terminator, normalized at different adapter:



BNC pass thru terminator + 100MHz scope 1MΩ:



What can say... Think "floor" at -30dBm might be caused by bridge itself... and my terminators are far from unusable at 500MHz. And I can have very rough look at stuff up to 500MHz with my 100MHz scope... :P
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 08:20:06 am by MrW0lf »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2018, 10:36:21 am »
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Offline DaJMasta

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2018, 10:58:38 am »
I've got a 4024 I got as a demo unit from Rigol clearance a couple years back and I like the scope.  A few quirks in the UI, a few lacking aspects (small, awkward FFT, slowdowns for serial decoding, loud fan), but it's overall a good scope and has served me well.  That said, I paid a fair amount less than $3000 AUS when I got it, and I don't know why they're still priced so high from Rigol... I doubt they will be for very long because I think the 7000 series will just overtake them entirely.

If you could get one for like $1500 or something, that could be a good find, but I'd have a hard time justifying $2000 or more on one because it's an older platform and because more modern instruments in the same general range just offer more performance and features.  I think the suggestion to look at another more modern design midrange scope, wait for the price drop (of this or the 7000 series), or look towards a higher end older scope in a similar pricerange is probably the route I'd take if I were looking now.  Not that I dislike the scope, but because it's a little aged and lacks in a few ways and I just think it's not priced to really be as good value in today's marketplace as it was maybe 4-5 years ago.

Offline John B

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Re: Rigol DS4024 opinions
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2018, 11:14:56 am »
Have a look at what Trio Test have to offer.
So did ya ?
https://www.triotest.com.au/store/7-oscilloscopes

Yes I did. Thanks all for the opinions, by all means keep them coming.

I am mulling over the Siglent SDS2000 series as well, perhaps the SDS2204X.
 


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