Author Topic: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes  (Read 13580 times)

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Offline IDEngineer

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Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« on: September 07, 2015, 11:11:04 AM »
(Long time lurker, first time poster.)

I'm in the market for a new scope. I've looked at everything - Keysight, Tek, LeCroy, Yokogawa, Rigol, Owon, etc. There are so many dimensions to the decision that it's hard to sort it all out. I realize this a deep, sometimes emotional, and oft-discussed topic so let me keep the fundamental question as simple as possible. I'll provide some background and then pose the question at the end.

Background:

My requirements are 100MHz (but 200MHz would be much better), either 4A or 2A+digital channels, relatively deep memory, and - here's the kicker - CAN decoding. If it weren't for CAN, I'd grab an MSO1104Z for a kilobuck and live with the narrower bandwidth. But the 1000 series doesn't offer CAN decoding so I have to move to more expensive options.

I'm partial to HP/Agilent/KeySight because I have friends who have worked there for decades, am familiar with their gear, and already have some specialized HP stuff around. I also have lots of experience with Tek, and even Philips (back in the day - I really loved the Philips analog scopes and still have a PM3214 sitting within arm's reach!). But after doing straight comparisons between the Big Brands and Rigol, the former simply want too much money while cheating you on bandwidth or memory or digital channels or whatever. There's just too much of a price premium, even with KeySight's current "all options free" deal. (They had a similar deal going last summer too, and I almost pulled the trigger then.)

Yes, I understand the concept of using multiple scopes and chaining them together via trigger out/in. But that doesn't give me all of my recorded data on one screen. If I need more than two analog channels, I'm usually correlating data so the multiple scope approach just doesn't work well for me. I need a single device so everything correlates easily.

Sticking with Rigol for the moment, since I need CAN I'm forced to go to at least the 2000 series. But it only has two analog channels. To get four, I'm forced to the 4000 series and a big step up in cost. Other than the two extra analog channels, I don't really need the additional features of the 4000 series, so the entire decision is ultimately coming down to a question of analog vs. digital channels.

Thankfully, the Rigol digital channels are reasonably configurable. Trigger voltage thresholds, etc. can be dialed in such that I presume they *can* be used on an analog signal in a pinch for triggering purposes. Or, I can rube up a circuit to give the scope an psuedo-digital representation of the analog signal.

So... which does the hive mind think is the better choice: Two 200MHz analog + 16 digital channels (MSO2022A), or four 100MHz analog and zero digital channels (DS4014)? They are roughly 10% apart in price. Both come with the "free software bundle" that gives me CAN and a bunch of other stuff for no extra charge. It's not often that I need more than 100MHz but if you do there's no substitute, you can't fake your way there like substituting digital for analog, you either have the bandwidth or you don't. There are other considerations: 2000 series is the newer design (I think), 4000 series has a larger screen and lots more memory and faster waveform capture, etc. But let's keep it simple.

I can have [email protected] + 16D, or I can have [email protected], for about the same price. Which is more valuable? Which would you buy, and why?

Thanks!
 

Offline mos6502

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2015, 11:22:19 AM »
Why do you need a scope to analyze CAN? A $10 Saleae logic analyzer clone will do that much better.
for(;;);
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2015, 11:34:00 AM »
Well, strictly speaking I can also handle my CAN work with some bare PCB circuits I have lying around. But after doing that for a long time I thought it would be nice to just be able to connect up a few probes and get there a LOT faster. I'll look into the cheap alternative that you mentioned, I appreciate the idea.

But back to my question: Which direction would you go, of the two I asked about? Four slower analog channels, or two faster ones with digital too?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 11:43:50 AM by IDEngineer »
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2015, 12:16:52 PM »
Just re-watched "EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope"... makes it pretty clear that dropping back to the DS1000 series gives up a lot of useful features. Granted the DS1000Z series improves on that, but I'm rethinking the idea of just taking a 1000 series scope. Just might be giving up too much.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2015, 01:04:22 PM »
I bought a DS4014 a few months ago, and struggled with a few of the same conflicts you mentioned. However, I find it very adequate for my needs (which include CAN decoding). I show some detailed considerations  here.

One tip I give you is look at Rigol's clearance bin - I got mine in pristine condition, and they have a MSO2202A and a DS4012 going for interesting prices at the moment.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2015, 02:05:28 PM »
I show some detailed considerations  here.
Great thread, thanks for the cite. I've scanned it and will go back and read it in detail as soon as I'm done replying here.

Quote
One tip I give you is look at Rigol's clearance bin - I got mine in pristine condition, and they have a MSO2202A and a DS4012 going for interesting prices at the moment.
Yep, I noticed that. But I also noticed that the warranty is only 90 days, instead of the three years you get with a new unit. That scares me a bit for something this expensive that I plan on keeping for many years. I also suspect those clearance units won't include the free bundle of options they're offering right now, and the cost for the bundle is more than the savings, so for the same or less cost I can get a full three year warranty plus all of the bundle options. At least that's my thinking at the moment, no matter which way I go.

Thank you for replying, I really appreciate it!
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2015, 05:45:47 AM »
OK, I 've done some further serious considering about this question and thought I'd share my thought process, in case it helps others noodling over the same topic.

I've re-read and re-watched all of the applicable videos, both Dave's and others I could find. I've also scanned the manuals for the various models, not just Rigol but also KeySight's 2000 and 3000 series. My goal is to be able to make an informed decision based on what the various models actually deliver.

Finally, I've really considered my application for this new scope - what I'm really going to do with it. And this last point made the biggest difference, because I realized that what I'm really seeking here is the ability to capture, playback, and analyze data. mos6502 was right (thank you!), the serial decode can be done better for cheaper by another instrument and thus shouldn't be a major deciding factor. Nice to have, but not critical. The ability to capture historical signal data and correlate it after the fact is the biggest new feature that this scope will bring to my bench.

Based on that realization, I almost convinced myself to drop back to the MSO1104Z for ~$1000. It has an almost unbeatable set of features: FOUR analog channels, 16 digital channels, more default memory than the Big Brands, etc. Yes, the bandwidth is somewhat limited at 100MHz but it would still cover 95% of the stuff I do regularly. A kilobuck for a 4A+16D waveform capture system is amazing, and almost a no-brainer.

But waveform capture feels like a second-class feature on the 1000Z series. Right off the bat, it's an extra cost option; not a lot more money, but still, it speaks volumes that they don't include it as a fundamental feature of the scope. Next, its controls are buried deep in the menu system (even Dave mentioned this in his 1000 vs. 2000 comparison video). Once again, it feels like this feature is a second-class citizen.

Contrast that with the 2000A series. Waveform capture and segmented memory are native features on the basic instrument. Its controls aren't buried deep in the menus, they're individual discrete physical controls mounted RIGHT ON THE FRONT PANEL. That screams of an instrument designed from the start to capture and analyze data. Which happens to be the primary reason I'm buying a new scope!

As for the 4000A series... well, to be honest, the price just feels like too much money to be putting into what we must all admit is still a second-tier instrument company. I think Rigol is making great strides (or I wouldn't consider giving them my money), but they have a ways to go before they match HP/Agilent/KeySight, Tektronix, LeCroy, or even Hameg. If I'm going to spend 4000A-series money, I'm going to look harder at other brands. And honestly, the 4000A series doesn't bring that much more value to my situation. It might be *nice* to have faster waveform updates, but I don't *need* it. 140M sample memory is better than 56M, but when Tek is still shipping 2.4K (?!?) does it really matter that I'm yet another 2x farther above?

It just feels like the 2000A series is the current sweet spot for what I want: A deep-memory waveform capture system. I would dearly love to have two more analog channels, but that means either the 1000Z series (where the specific feature I'm seeking is treated as an afterthought) or the 4000A series (which basically doubles the cost just to get two more analog channels at lower bandwidth for the money).

So at the moment, I'm settling in on the MSO2202A as the best overall compromise, balancing all the competing criteria. 2A+16D at 200MHz for $2K before haggling. We shall see!

Hope this helps someone. If you have a different opinion, I'd love to hear it before I start making phone calls tomorrow. Thanks!
 

Offline Kappes Buur

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2015, 06:43:12 AM »
If you go for the MSO2202A, then you should also take advantage of the special options offer
http://www.rigolna.com/bundle/

However, before committing to a final decision, have you also read these threads
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso2000-news/msg721642/#msg721642
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso2000-series-hacking/msg483376/#msg483376

There are some nice standalone logic analyzers available.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2015, 06:56:06 AM »
(Long time lurker, first time poster.)

I'm in the market for a new scope. I've looked at everything - Keysight, Tek, LeCroy, Yokogawa, Rigol, Owon, etc.
Siglent?
http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=25&T=2&tid=1
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Offline Stupid Beard

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2015, 07:30:53 AM »
In case you're not aware, one limitation of the Rigols is that the serial decoding only works with what's on the screen and not the full waveform in memory. At least that is the case with the analog channels, I don't have an MSO so I don't know how it fares on the digital channels.

How much of a limitation that is depends on what you want the serial decoding for. It's fine for some uses, but if you want to do any kind of detailed analysis or logging you're probably best off just using a separate logic analyser.
 

Offline Shavik

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2015, 07:43:01 AM »
In case you're not aware, one limitation of the Rigols is that the serial decoding only works with what's on the screen and not the full waveform in memory. At least that is the case with the analog channels, I don't have an MSO so I don't know how it fares on the digital channels.

How much of a limitation that is depends on what you want the serial decoding for. It's fine for some uses, but if you want to do any kind of detailed analysis or logging you're probably best off just using a separate logic analyser.
I'm currently in the market for a new scope and I thought that I read this was only a problem on the DS1000Z series scope. the DS2x and DS4x performed analysis on the sampled data, not the displayed data.

Do you know if that's true?
 

Offline Kappes Buur

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2015, 08:23:38 AM »
Do you know if that's true?

In my response above I linked to atx's thread discussing just that.
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2015, 08:23:47 AM »
If you go for the MSO2202A, then you should also take advantage of the special options offer
http://www.rigolna.com/bundle/
Yep, that's one of the reasons the 2000A series pencils out well. Those options are included at no extra cost.

Quote
However, before committing to a final decision, have you also read these threads
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso2000-news/msg721642/#msg721642
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso2000-series-hacking/msg483376/#msg483376
Yes, thank you, I've read those and countless others. WRT not decoding deep memory, one thread I read suggested that the problem of not decoding as you scroll through memory had been fixed in a recent firmware update. And unless I'm misunderstanding something, I sort of get their comment about "only decoding what's on the screen"... I don't care if the scope has prefetched and predecoded stuff I'm not actually looking at in real time. If it decodes it as I scroll it onto the screen, that's fine with me. But THAT was broken for a long time, according to the threads I've read, and that would be awful except that I read a thread last night (on this site) that it had been fixed. Can anyone confirm? I can dig around and try to find the thread again, it was a VERY long one.

Quote
There are some nice standalone logic analyzers available.
Indeed, as another respondent noted, I'd be better off letting one of those handle my primary protocol decoding needs. That deprecated the need for CAN, as I noted above, which is why I temporarily gave the 1000Z series another look before realizing they don't handle waveform acquisition nearly as well as the 2000A and 4000A series.
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2015, 08:26:11 AM »
Siglent?
My apologies, I did look at them but so far they seem yet another strata below Rigol. The online reviews don't inspire confidence.
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2015, 08:27:45 AM »
In case you're not aware, one limitation of the Rigols is that the serial decoding only works with what's on the screen and not the full waveform in memory. At least that is the case with the analog channels, I don't have an MSO so I don't know how it fares on the digital channels.
As I noted above:
Quote
WRT not decoding deep memory, one thread I read suggested that the problem of not decoding as you scroll through memory had been fixed in a recent firmware update. And unless I'm misunderstanding something, I sort of get their comment about "only decoding what's on the screen"... I don't care if the scope has prefetched and predecoded stuff I'm not actually looking at in real time. If it decodes it as I scroll it onto the screen, that's fine with me. But THAT was broken for a long time, according to the threads I've read, and that would be awful except that I read a thread last night (on this site) that it had been fixed. Can anyone confirm? I can dig around and try to find the thread again, it was a VERY long one.
I guess I need to dig that thread up again. Let me see if I can find it.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 08:45:31 AM by IDEngineer »
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2015, 08:45:38 AM »
Found it. From the "Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc..." thread (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg421301/#msg421301), wherein user Teneyes reports that:

Quote
Please Note the decoding of recorded frames I show is available for the DS2000 only in the latest FW 00.03.00.00. The recording shown here are bursts of 70 bytes every 3 seconds

...and user H.O replies:

Quote
Hi Teneyes,
No, the DS4k does not decode data when "playing back" recorded frames - that feature not working has kind of been the key point of the discussions over the last several days. Thank you very much(!) for confirming that it DOES now seem to work on the DS2k after upgrading to 00.03.00 - I sincerely hope it's just a matter of time untill Rigol releases "the same" firmware for the DS4k.

...and then Mark_O replies:

Quote
Thanks for cluing us in on the DS2000/FW3.0 dependency for this functionality.  I wasn't aware that many had even bothered trying it yet (or that you were one of them), since there were some questions initially about its legitimacy.  And those that had weren't noticing any significant improvements.  Naturally, Rigol isn't about to make a list of things they fixed.  That would require admitting that a capability that should have worked from day one (and they've been claiming did work), just showed up 2(?) years later.  (Though the DS4000 folks are still waiting, even longer.  :( )

So it seems that this problem has been fixed in the 2000A series since at least April of last year (2014). I don't know if it's STAYED fixed, or if the 4000A series ever got the fix. Anyone with either model know and care to share the data?

Do the firmware numbers track across the different series? If so, is there a V3 available for the 4000A?

Glad we're wrestling this question down right now!  :-+
 

Online hendorog

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2015, 11:19:32 AM »
Quote
Yes, thank you, I've read those and countless others. WRT not decoding deep memory, one thread I read suggested that the problem of not decoding as you scroll through memory had been fixed in a recent firmware update.

My DS4014 on current firmware definitely _does_ update the decoded data when scrolling through the memory. And it has for some time from memory. However the list of decoded packets will only show entries for what is on the screen, and it updates as you scroll thru the memory.

To display more packets in the list then you need to 'zoom out' using the timebase before capturing. That way the packets are all on the screen and are displayed one after the other in the list of decoded packets.

 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2015, 11:59:38 AM »
My DS4014 on current firmware definitely _does_ update the decoded data when scrolling through the memory. And it has for some time from memory. To display more packets in the list then you need to 'zoom out' using the timebase before capturing. That way the packets are all on the screen and are displayed one after the other in the list of decoded packets.
This sounds like how it should work.

Quote
However the list of decoded packets will only show entries for what is on the screen, and it updates as you scroll thru the memory.
Exactly. How else could it work? Where would it display the decoded information, if the data being decoded is offscreen?  :-//

What version of firmware are you running? I'm still trying to find out if the 2000A and 4000A series firmware stays in sync, which would suggest that fixes for one would appear in the other once the same version number was made available.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 12:01:55 PM by IDEngineer »
 

Online hendorog

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2015, 12:52:38 PM »
Quote
Quote
However the list of decoded packets will only show entries for what is on the screen, and it updates as you scroll thru the memory.
Exactly. How else could it work? Where would it display the decoded information, if the data being decoded is offscreen?  :-//
I quess some people expected the list to be populated from all packets found in the entire memory. Regarding where to display it; I was talking about the decoders list/table/history function - which is just a list of the decoded packets and is where they would logically be displayed if the memory was decoded.
Its the first scope I've used with serial decode, so I don't know how other brands do it.

IMHO the decoding works fine, unless of course you hate Rigol - in which case its unusable crap  :-DD

I've think much of the 'collective wisdom' on this scope around here comes from comments which are a year or more out of date. There are 2 or 3 firmware updates a year and there is no up to date bug list on the forums. I'm on the current firmware and am happy to test and report back if you have any questions about specific features.


« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 12:56:16 PM by hendorog »
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2015, 01:55:30 PM »
I've think much of the 'collective wisdom' on this scope around here comes from comments which are a year or more out of date. There are 2 or 3 firmware updates a year and there is no up to date bug list on the forums. I'm on the current firmware and am happy to test and report back if you have any questions about specific features.
I suspect you're absolutely correct about that. Bad news about bugs gets posted multiple times and lingers forever, while news of fixes doesn't get the same exposure. Hence research like I'm doing is quick to find multiple bug reports but you really have to dig to find that it's been fixed.

I may take you up on that offer to confirm things... let me run through my list so I don't waste your time. Thanks in advance.

What version of firmware are you running? This is on a 2000A series, correct?
 

Online hendorog

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2015, 02:18:27 PM »
Quote
What version of firmware are you running? This is on a 2000A series, correct?

Its a DS4014 with the latest firmware 00.02.02.04.03
(I'm at my day job so I got that version # from this page: http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm )

btw comparing the release notes will be one way to compare the 4000 and 2000 firmware status. I'll attach the 4000 release notes.
The 2000 series apparently has a couple of features that the 4000 doesn't have - as it is newer. Off the top of my head windowed triggers was one.
 

Offline atx

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2015, 03:00:58 PM »
IDEngineer,
As I mentioned in my threads, while the latest update fixed the biggest issue, namely the SCPI interface (that took almost a year to be fixed), the decoding hasn't been fixed and Rigol mentioned for the first time that the MSO2000 is not intended to decode the deep memory.  Once I got that message from Rigol, I pretty much stopped investigating the issue as it is a bit difficult to figure out when the decoding fails.  It depends on memory depth and sample frequency.  The only good news is that the sampling is fully functional with any selected memory and you can now download the data through the SCPI.  The download function is not fully fixed but works.  The only issue I have encountered is that it always dumps out the full memory even if the LA has a smaller memory which unnecessarily lengthens the download. Other than that, certain SCPI commands are missing but that would be only important if you want to control the scope from a PC.  I expect those to be hopefully fixed in the future.  From experience, anything that doesn't work properly may be fixed or not and if so it takes quite a while...

Here are a few things you might want to consider.
The MSO costs about $400.- more then the regular scope.
This gives you 16 digital channels and a sampling rate of up to 1GHz and a minimum pulse width of 5ns which would result in a bandwidth of about 200Mhz (I haven't verified that yet, but those specs are quite good).   

The LA of the MSO2000 on the scope is implemented weird to say the least.  For example, it does not allow you to directly select a sample rate. If you manage to scale down the sampling rate and want to use the full memory, there is a high chance that decoding will not work.  OTOH, due to the fact that there is no search function, the utility of the deep memory on the scope per se is questionable.  Try to scroll through 28Msamples to find a specific sample with a little knob is not practical.  As mentioned above, the download functionality is now fixed and you can analyze the data on a PC.

I am not sure what the Usb based logic analyzers go for these days, but you might get more value with a separate device.  I still prefer knobs and buttons on a scope over any PC-logic analyzer and I like to have both functions in a single device.  The Rigol MSO2000 is certainly a compromise and I probably would not have bought it with the knowledge I have now, but I can live with it for now...

Hope this helps

atx
 

Offline H.O

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2015, 04:01:37 PM »
Hi,
Decoding of recorded frames is fixed on the DS40000.
Scrolling thru single long capture works, it will decode the data that's currently on the screen but it MAY screw it up if the startbit of byte falls of the screen so you need to be a bit careful.

Quote
IMHO the decoding works fine, unless of course you hate Rigol - in which case its unusable crap 

I've think much of the 'collective wisdom' on this scope around here comes from comments which are a year or more out of date. There are 2 or 3 firmware updates a year and there is no up to date bug list on the forums. I'm on the current firmware and am happy to test and report back if you have any questions about specific features.

Very true. I'll be happy to do specific tests on my DS4000 as well. Just let me know.
 

Online hendorog

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2015, 04:12:47 PM »
Quote
the decoding hasn't been fixed and Rigol mentioned for the first time that the MSO2000 is not intended to decode the deep memory

Are you talking about only the LA digital channels here or does the decoding fail on the analog channels on the MSO2k too?

It's a gut feeling but people using the MSO seem to be less happy than DS users.
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2015, 01:47:38 AM »
...the decoding hasn't been fixed and Rigol mentioned for the first time that the MSO2000 is not intended to decode the deep memory
That seems to contradict what Teneyes reported (above). So who is correct? Can you scroll through captured data and have it decode what is displayed on the screen, or not?

Quote
The Rigol MSO2000 is certainly a compromise and I probably would not have bought it with the knowledge I have now, but I can live with it for now...
By "compromise" are you speaking of the combined scope+LA aspect, or the overall machine? I'm concerned here that you feel the SCOPE part is a "compromise", when I'm strongly considering dropping a couple thousand dollars on one.  :o
 


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