Rigol MSD2022A vs. Rigol DS4014 Scopes

[dr.diesel]

But the primary reason for needing this new scope - at least for now - is as an analog data capture system. Hence why memory looms so large as a consideration.

Can you explain this a bit further?  Are you sure a scope is the right instrument?

Although I've not used the bundled Rigol software, it's really poor IIRC, that is if you hoping to incorporate a PC as well.

[IDEngineer]

Can you explain this a bit further?  Are you sure a scope is the right instrument?

We need a good digital storage scope anyway. But what's driving the purchase right now is a project where we have multiple analog signals that we need to sample, store, and correlate. It's a closed loop positioning system and we need to understand the real-time relationships between motor winding voltage, motor winding current, sensor feedback, etc. A DAQ system won't cut it because these are analog, not digital.

And then, we'll have a good DSO around with plenty of bandwidth and depth to do almost everything we need. We don't get above 100MHz too often, so 200MHz should give us good fidelity in our bandwidths of interest.

Essentially, we've needed a new scope for a while but held of until now.

[IDEngineer]

Update: Pulled the trigger on the Rigol DS4024A. My Keysight friend got back to me and said their deal will take a while to make happen. Rigol offers a 30 day return policy if you don't like the scope, so we're going to give the DS4024A a shot while the Keysight deal grinds along. If it doesn't happen, then we've got the Rigol. If it does come together and the Rigol isn't the right product, we have the option for the 3024T. Best of both worlds.

Should have a new DS4024A in our hands early next week. Christmas in September! 

[tautech]

Update: Pulled the trigger on the Rigol DS4024A. My Keysight friend got back to me and said their deal will take a while to make happen. Rigol offers a 30 day return policy if you don't like the scope, so we're going to give the DS4024A a shot while the Keysight deal grinds along. If it doesn't happen, then we've got the Rigol. If it does come together and the Rigol isn't the right product, we have the option for the 3024T. Best of both worlds.

Should have a new DS4024A in our hands early next week. Christmas in September! 

Please keep us updated on your experiences.

[H.O]

Yep, I've read that one (and many others) all the way through.

Lots of data out there. But some is poorly correlated, as with earlier in this thread where folks claimed a bug still existed when others here had documented its fix over a year ago.

Also, I wonder if Rigol has more bugs - or if those of Agilent/Keysight are just less documented. With Rigols being so much more affordable, it might be that they just get more exposure with the homebrew crowd who are perhaps more likely to post their findings. Not sure. But the lack of postings isn't proof of lack of bugs. Definitely Keysight gets the nod for "more likely to respond and fix a bug".

Just got a text that the Keysight people are having a meeting right now to discuss options. We'll see.

Now that's one of the most balanced and thought through replies I've read in any of these "cheap chinese" vs "big brand" threads in a very long time. You are most likely right about Keysight being "better" at fixing bugs. I've been frustrated for sure and I thought I was being left in the dark with the DS4000 but I've changed my mind a bit. They are fixing things but it does take time. As for general support it's, in my experience, a bit of hit and miss kind of thing. It depends on who you get at the other end.

Keep us posted!

[IDEngineer]

I've been frustrated for sure and I thought I was being left in the dark with the DS4000 but I've changed my mind a bit. They are fixing things but it does take time. As for general support it's, in my experience, a bit of hit and miss kind of thing. It depends on who you get at the other end.

So far, the people with whom I've spoken at Rigol have been top-notch. Granted I'm talking with the sales and support folks and not the guys correcting the firmware bugs, but no complaints so far... in fact, I'd praise the responses I've gotten from two different people at Rigol.

I asked about bug fixes as part of my discussion with them, and the feedback I got was that (at least for the 4000A series) they see 1-2 firmware updates a year. So while I didn't get the impression there was any sort of actual schedule for updates, neither did it sound like this series is starving for attention. I've worked for equipment companies and it's really a big prioritization game. There's pressure to finish the next New Product, which competes with pressure to support existing products that are shipping and actually paying the bills, etc.

I bet the squeaky wheel metaphor applies. Maybe what the Rigol owner community should do is coordinate our attacks.  When someone encounters a bug and it's confirmed by others, EVERYONE who owns that model/series should separately contact Rigol and apply pressure. Have to spread it out over a period of time so their eyes don't just glaze over. But properly done, that might raise the priority back in Bejing.

Is there a Rigol community website somewhere? If not, perhaps we should create one rather than ride on Dave's coattails (and dilute the focus).

[dr.diesel]

I would agree with the 1-2 updates per year, no known Rigol forum, and they do not monitor here.

Rigol has been very well informed on the 4000 series bugs, in fact i've been told many times it's the first time they've heard of them, ha ha. 

I've had the same experience, sales is pretty good, support is worse than a dick in the ass.

[IDEngineer]

I've had the same experience, sales is pretty good, support is worse...

The guy I talked to originally was an Applications Engineer for them. My "sales" call got routed there but he handled my questions just fine, since they were much more technical than what most people would consider sales questions.

He made one comment I really liked: "It's our job to earn your business." And he invited me to call anytime with questions before or after a sale. He specifically said "Even if you don't by Rigol this time around". Granted they're just words at the moment, and time will tell how well they back them up, but so far at least I'm impressed enough to step away from our usual default Keysight purchase and give Rigol a shot. 

I wonder if there would be interest in a Rigol-dedicated forum. I could set that up, but it's only worth it if there would be enough participants.

[rsjsouza]

The guy I talked to originally was an Applications Engineer for them. My "sales" call got routed there but he handled my questions just fine, since they were much more technical than what most people would consider sales questions.

I got the same nice experience and technical information when purchasing my DS4014. Also, my contacts with their support were always good. As H.O said, it may depend on who you get at the other end.

I wonder if there would be interest in a Rigol-dedicated forum. I could set that up, but it's only worth it if there would be enough participants.

+1.

[dr.diesel]

When I say support, I mean I've got a reproducible firmware bug, here are the exact steps etc.  You can report these, they sales guy will gladly listen, but past that they get lost.

What I want to see, let's use Elecraft as an example.  I reported a bug, the owner emailed me directly, said I've reproduced it, it will be fixed in the next rev, which was like a week later.   

Now I know Rigol is a much bigger company, but all questions/bugs/etc need at least acknowledged, given a ticket number or something.

[H.O]

As H.O said, it may depend on who you get at the other end.

I can elaborate  a bit on my personal experience. I was in contact with the US branch regarding the issues with decoders (now fixed). At first it felt he was all over the issue and promised to set up a test on his bench to replicate the problem, scheduled test "next week" - then nothing. Two months later I asked but he hadn't been able to "get around to it yet" but suspected that "there might still be some bugs" with the decoder.....

Quite a while later I tried to reach him for an update, no response what so ever. After a couple of fruitless tries I gave up with the US office and emailed the office in Germany* and they told me there "had been some changes" at the US office and the guy I was talking to was no longer working there. They could at least have set an auto-reply on his email account.

* Which I should have done in the first place since I'm in the EU but I apparently used the contact form on the "wrong" Rigol website and got routed to the US office.

[IDEngineer]

let's use Elecraft as an example.  I reported a bug, the owner emailed me directly, said I've reproduced it, it will be fixed in the next rev, which was like a week later.

So you're a ham? All three of my family members are, one Extra and two Generals including my 13YO son who got his Tech license at 6YO and his General at 7YO.

[TheSteve]

Not to many companies could maintain the standards set by Elecraft. hmmm, I think there should be a ham radio sub forum around here.

PS, I'd have gone for the Agilent, but am looking forward to hearing how the Rigol does - the extended memory may prove to be a real bonus.

[dr.diesel]

So you're a ham?

 

Rigol would be an entirely different story if they'd just dedicate a bit more time on the firmware side.

[IDEngineer]

Quick update: Scope has arrived, overnight from Oregon! Pulled it out, powered it up, and checked a few things. Now letting it burn in for a while.

Decoder bundle code is supposed to ship next week. In the meantime the demos have nearly 4000 hours (!!!) remaining.

Very first impressions:

* Fan noise is definitely there, but not what I'd call objectionable. I prefer to work in silence but this is only slightly more than a typical tower PC. It's also a mild, modest air sound as opposed to some fans that have a definite "whir" or "buzz" or similar. So while it's not silent, I consider it acceptable.

* Screen has a reasonable brightness. I have found how to change the brightness of the traces and the grid, but not the overall brightness (that would affect menus, markers, navigation, etc.). Screen visibility angle is definitely limited, as noted in Dave's video review. Your line of sight really does want to be looking down, from above the screen's horizontal. If it's on a bench it will be fine, but might suffer if mounted on a shelf above eye level.

* Unit comes with a very nice front panel cover. That isn't emphasized much, I only found a brief reference to it in the manual I was reading while awaiting the scope's arrival. I still plan to get a carrying case for it, but even in the case I'll be happier knowing the front panel is protected.

* So far the traditional V+H controls are relatively intuitive. Will need some time to make the rest of it second nature, but that's true of all digital instruments these days. (Remember when you could walk up to virtually any analog scope and immediately know how to do almost anything?)

More soon. So far, so good!

[IDEngineer]

After a few hours, functionally all continues to be well. Real signal-based testing will probably have to wait until tomorrow.

However, during the burn-in, the 4024A has gotten just a bit noisier. The main fan is still just a breath of air, but now there's an additional slight "ticking" sound that reminds me of a CPU fan. I wonder if there's a second internal fan mounted to a heat sink.

I powered it down, let it cool for a couple of hours, and then restarted it to see if this possible internal fan is thermally switched and would be silent again for a while. No luck - the sound appears to be permanent now. Again, it's not awful, but since there's been something of a ruckus about fan noise level on these units I'm paying close attention. Interesting that the noise wasn't there at first, but now appears permanent.

I listened carefully, thinking it might be a label that's come loose internally and ticking the main fan's blades or fluttering around in its airstream (I've seen that in the past). But it definitely doesn't sound like that. It sounds like a heat-sink-mounted CPU fan at low RPM's.

More details as I learn them.

EDIT: Couldn't stand it, had to know if it was a secondary fan. So I powered up the unit with the main fan stalled out for a few seconds. Result: The unit is absolutely dead silent. Booted fine, so there's no fan sensor that holds off until the fan can spin up. This means the little ticking sound is associated with the main (and I believe only) fan. There's also now a low frequency tone, sounds like about 120 Hz. It might have been there before, but I really don't think so. Sitting across the room from it, all I hear is the slight air noise; the tone/buzz is the dominant sound when you're sitting right in front of it.

So I guess the biggest value of the early burn-in is to get the fan settled into whatever will be its normal operating mode! 

[rsjsouza]

IDEngineer, there is no secondary fan according to Connor Wolf's DS4014 teardown:

https://youtu.be/_J1pVlqMIHM

[dr.diesel]

Booted fine, so there's no fan sensor that holds off until the fan can spin up

Yeah, there is only one fan, constant speed, no RPM feedback.  There is also an onboard temp sensor, in the system menu somewhere, informational only I presume.

The (4) ADCs get pretty warm, I added heatsinks to mine and swapped the fan for a much quieter Noctua unit.

[IDEngineer]

Yep, I watched that teardown video while considering this purchase. However, based on some of the internal heat studies I wondered if they might have added one or more internal fans, especially on the A/D's. I would like to add A/D heat sinks and/or fans, as well as replace the main fan, but I don't want to crack the case and void the warranty on a scope that is only two days old!

[dr.diesel]

However, based on some of the internal heat studies I wondered if they might have added one or more internal fans, especially on the A/D's.

Nope, even the newer-ish MSOs still have a single fan, no ADC heatsinks.

[rsjsouza]

but I don't want to crack the case and void the warranty on a scope that is only two days old!

You should have bought one from their clearance center then, as they have only 90 days of warranty! 

[IDEngineer]

Quick comment: Gotta say the jog-shuttle knobs on the front panel are AWESOME.  I'm familiar with this type of user control from video editing and can't imagine trying to scroll through thousands of memory segments by forever spinning a regular knob.

You know why an Agilent/Keysight doesn't have this? Because their number of segments is so small, they don't need it! 

[dr.diesel]

Make sure you're running the latest firmware:

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm

And for quick screenshots via PC this utility is pretty handy:

peter.dreisiebner.at

[IDEngineer]

Make sure you're running the latest firmware

Good idea, I presumed it would be the latest since it came straight from Rigol NA's own stock but you never know. Where in the menu system does it display the current version's rev number?

[H.O]

That would be [Utility] -> [System] -> [System Info].
There's also a certain key combination which makes it display a more detailed system info but I don't remember it right now.