Author Topic: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...  (Read 91143 times)

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Offline Altemir

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Hi, all! This is my first impression by quick testing Rigol MSO4024. Please, sorry me for my bad English.

I want to create this post as early REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol for separate discussion of MSO4000 and DS4000 series of oscilloscopes. Now I have created little report for Rigol's distributor in my country on Russian language "Rigol MSO4024 sw00.02.zip" (this is only report, not firmware!). Now this report is translating by distributor to Rigol company.

This is some bugs from upper document with very little description (sorry).


Known Firmware Bugs/Issues
(red indicates latest FW version available, italic indicates requires for testing - please, inform me about results)


1. Very slowly work with USB-disks. Writing to 2GB disk *.png 45KB ~18...30sec with ~50% filled USB-disk! With clean and formatted drive you take ~8...10sec
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

2. "Print" button can't save all screen, only signal and grid.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04]

4. Not informative progress-bar, when disk writing is active
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

7. Fonts with eng words has little character interval, bad smoothing. File manager's font with big character interval for Unicode's Cyrillic symbols
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

8. No nonvolatile through-counter for saved files (see comments in my RU report)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

9. Considerable inconvenience. Channels measurements is by FIFO-principle: when you adding new measurement, old left are deleting
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

14. Considerable inconvenience. Very primitive cursor measurements for XY-mode
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

16. Not stable V_RMS-measurements for >10 periods of unchangeable sin signal on different time-bases (~2..3%)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

17. On little overload channel V_RMS is not readable
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

18. On little overload channel signal form like slightly mirror image from up and down (as OPAMP reverse phase effect)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

20. Some big freezes with FFT math
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

21. Multi-function Knob change value, when you are press on it (this is bug on all Rigol oscilloscopes)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

29. Automatic menu hiding work in spurts
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

30. Moir of signal with big time-base in some cases
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

31. As for DS2000. ANTI-ALIASING does not prevent waveform aliasing to any degree, on some big time-bases signal is absent completely, freezes of scope.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

32. As for DS2000. There is a bug when using DOTS mode with AUTO memory depths @ >= 5us/div. It affects the waveform update rate (much reduced) - and can also affect the visible display of the waveform.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

33. Near as DS2000. Changing intensity of signal, when enabling second channel (see pictures from my RU report)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

34. Auto power on, when external power 220V cable disconnect/connect to oscilloscope
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04]

37. HiRes mode. On time-base @ >= 5ms/div signal is absent with CH1 only enabling, but freq-counter working properly (100-1000Hz sine). We can see signal, when CH2, or CH3+CH4 are been enabling.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

39. Offsets for channels on 1mV/div ~0.3...0.5mV (see pictures). Ext probes is absent, channels with internal 50 Ohm
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

22. Not mine. Freezes with logic analyzer (LA) at I2C mode: and
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

23. Not mine. Phase shift of result sequence and phase jitter for LA at parallel mode
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

24. Not mine. Not working LA decoder after power off/on for SPI-mode:
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]



Result of tests and measurements:

Frequency response tests
Pulse tests



Firmware links:

Global folder
Firmware upgrade procedure
Changelog

FW_00.02.01.00.03

500MHz patched FW_00.02.01.00.03:  w w w.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754



Edit 1. Formatting post, adding new firmware, correcting waveform rating (thanks to tized), added new screenshots
Edit 2. Autopower is with disable option. No bug #34. Adding Table with Bandwidth in High Res mode (memory=AUTO), light green - x2 better, than DS2000
Edit 3. Reorganized mediafire folder, added Changelog.txt link and firmware upgrade procedure. Edited bug #1. Bugs #9, #14 is considerable inconvenience now.
Edit 4. Reorganized mediafire folder, added Frequency response tests and Pulse tests links, corrected FR images


« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 03:21:08 AM by Altemir »
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2014, 09:04:15 AM »
I have a MSO4024 as well.  So far I share most of your thoughts, although there is a new firmware available, 2.01 which seems to have helped the crashing on protocol decoding.  Mine hasn't crashed since the upgrade.

If I was still within my 30 day testing window of my distributor I'd probably send it back and order a Hameg HMO3000.  My recommendation to anyone here, unless you need the price/value of a hacked 500Mhz unit, look toward the Agilent 3000/Hameg HMO3000.  In saying that, if the hacks work on the new MSOs, a 500Mhz, 4-channel scope with all the options enabled is hard to beat for $4000.

Offline tized

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2014, 08:47:20 PM »
Strange...I get nowhere near the same wfm/s rate in vector mode. Furthermore, just changing the amplitude will make it drop the rate by more than 10kwfms. In dots it behaves like the table and changing the amplitude has no effect. See screen captures below, counter is set to external trigger, which is connected to the trigger out.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 09:30:05 PM by tized »
 

Offline Altemir

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 09:15:05 PM »
tized
What is your firmware?
My tests has been made with 1Vp-p sine wave and 200mV/div setting. Frequency was measured with DG4162 counter.
Rigol recommendation: 4 div input amplitude.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 09:19:49 PM by Altemir »
 

Offline tized

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 09:38:11 PM »
tized
What is your firmware?
My tests has been made with 1Vp-p sine wave and 200mV/div setting. Frequency was measured with DG4162 counter.
Rigol recommendation: 4 div input amplitude.

Software version:  00.02.00.00.04
Hardware version: 0.1.3.1

Just tried with 1Vp-p, 10MHz on 200mV/div -
Vectors:
2ns/div - 72,400
5ns/div - 73,450
10ns/div - 81,850
20ns/div - 43,280

Dots:
2ns/div - 106,670
5ns/div - 114,204
10ns/div - 115,906
20ns/div - 63,943

The trigger rate in dots is also more stable than in vector.

 

Offline Altemir

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 10:32:09 PM »
tized
Yes, you are right. My DG4162 (fw 01.00.07) was wrong for some frequencies. I remeasure with Agilent 53230A. Need some time...
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 09:37:24 AM by Altemir »
 

Offline Altemir

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2014, 09:45:16 AM »
A have edited my first post. DG4162 did not can measure some higher frequencies with 50 Ohm counter input. I got double frequencies with it bug. Now all results are correct.
With new firmware 00.02.01.00.03 we can save all screen or only signals and grid. We taken additional modes and tests in advanced Utility menu.
Who can comment: Gain1 , Gain2, EqualCal, DelayCal, ProbeCal, etc?

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2014, 04:32:28 AM »
Altemir: Thanks for your efforts!

I'm curious about the digital channels plus frame recording on the MSO4000. Can you record with digital channels on? Does the DSO capture the digital information in the frames?
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2014, 05:23:59 AM »
Oh, there should not be so many bugs. The DS4000 platform is not new and the scope is not cheap.
Amazing machines. http://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2014, 07:01:06 AM »
1. Very slowly work with USB-disks. Writing to 2GB disk *.png 45KB ~18...30sec!
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

Use my RUU utility software. Screen captures to PC take ~2.5s over USB or ~6s over LAN.

A new version is coming soon which will fully support all channels on the DS4000.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 11:34:17 AM by marmad »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2014, 08:23:07 AM »
Have you seen these MSO4000 reviews?
http://www.youtube.com/user/WeBeEngineers
Amazing machines. http://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2014, 08:39:22 AM »
Have you seen these MSO4000 reviews?

The OP already posted MSO4000 videos by the same guy here in this thread. Look at his links in bug #22, 23, and 24.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 09:18:24 AM by marmad »
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 11:17:57 AM »
Oh, there should not be so many bugs. The DS4000 platform is not new and the scope is not cheap.

That's exactly what I was thinking.  The 4000 is definitely "professionally" priced.  The quality should be of the same caliber.  They've certainly had more than enough time to address any bugs found in the unit.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2014, 01:06:15 PM »
It depends on what you need. The DSOX3000 is probably more mature and responsive, but it has only 4Mpoints memory (Per channel? Per four channels? It is not clear from the datasheet.) But Rigol DS4000 has 140Mpoints memory per four two channels...
EDIT: Correction.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 04:08:10 AM by Hydrawerk »
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Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2014, 04:08:30 PM »
It depends on what you need. The DSOX3000 is probably more mature and responsive, but it has only 4Mpoints memory (Per channel? Per four channels? It is not clear from the datasheet.) But Rigol DS4000 has 140Mpoints memory per four channels...

Stock on the DSOX3000 is 1M/channel, or 2M with the option.  In half-channel mode, it doubles those.  So the 4M max is for one channel of a two channel scope, or two channels of a four channel model.

The tradeoff for the shorter memory depths is a 1 million waveform/sec update rate.
 

Offline TomThomas

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2014, 12:56:15 AM »
It depends on what you need. The DSOX3000 is probably more mature and responsive, but it has only 4Mpoints memory (Per channel? Per four channels? It is not clear from the datasheet.) But Rigol DS4000 has 140Mpoints memory per four channels...

Hi Hydrawerk,
not completely right. Rigol has 140Mpts splitted over two channels. Means completely 280Mpts splitted over 4 Channels.
 

Offline Altemir

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2014, 03:07:52 AM »
I'm curious about the digital channels plus frame recording on the MSO4000. Can you record with digital channels on? Does the DSO capture the digital information in the frames?
Thank you fo your interest! Whether I understood you correctly?
1. Wfrm/s only for digital channels
2. Wfrm/s for analog+digital channels
3. Ability to waveform recording in segmented memory for digital channels

I can do it tomorrow or the day only.

Quote from: marmad
Use my RUU utility software. Screen captures to PC take ~2.5s over USB or ~6s over LAN.
Thank you for your software. I will use it at near time, but I do not always have the opportunity to connect PC with DSO in laboratory. DS1000D can save image to USB-flash for 1-2sec with less powerfull hardware!

Offline Mark_O

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2014, 09:40:15 AM »
DS1000D can save image to USB-flash for 1-2sec with less powerfull hardware!

True.  However, there are 2 things you're overlooking:

1)  the screen on the 1000D is only 320x234.  Vs. 800x480 on the 4000.  That's a 5x difference right there.

2)  the 1000D can not save PNGs to USB memory sticks, at all.  Only BMPs.  So you're comparing apples vs. oranges (compressed vs. uncompressed image files).

Saving large uncompressed BMPs on your 4000 will be faster than PNGs, even though they're bigger.  That's because the processor in the 4000 (or the code) isn't very fast at compressing BMPs down to PNGs.  Probably not surprising.

[ADDED:  So the best approach is probably to save BMPs to the USB stick (fastest), then convert them to PNGs on your PC (smallest).]

« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 09:47:26 AM by Mark_O »
 

Offline Altemir

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2014, 04:40:17 PM »
Mark_O
No, saving to *.bmp is not better, ~18sec under the same conditions.

Offline Altemir

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2014, 04:42:40 AM »
I'm curious about the digital channels plus frame recording on the MSO4000. Can you record with digital channels on? Does the DSO capture the digital information in the frames?
I measured waveform update rate for analog channels with and without LA-channels. No significant differences from first post's table. Yes, MSO can record analog+digital channels simultaneously to segmented memory.

I have sent bug report from first post to Chinas-s Rigol. They got it and promised to investigate this report.
New table at first post - frequency bandwidth for High Res mode. Memory=AUTO, light green - x2 better, than DS2000
Can anybody say me, what type of FPGA (full marking) used in MSO4000?

marmad
How do you add a full-scale pictures to body of first post "REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol"?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 06:55:49 AM by Altemir »
 

Offline marmad

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2014, 05:20:08 AM »
I measured waveform update rate for analog channels with an without LA-channels. No significant differences from first post's table. Yes, MSO can record analog+digital channels simultaneously to segmented memory.
Great - that's a powerful feature! Thanks for checking that.

Quote
How do you add a full-scale pictures to body of first post "REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol"?
Just copy the link to the image inside an image tag in the post. For example:



If you "Quote" this post, you'll see the tags.
 

Offline Binary1955

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2014, 08:49:32 AM »
Hi I have a DS4054 and wanted it with the necessary firmware update here. I press on the HELP button and power button. I have it very often Try, but i don't come to update mode.. :)
Please can someone help me?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 08:57:12 AM by Binary1955 »
 

Offline Altemir

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2014, 09:07:31 AM »
Hi I have a DS4054 and wanted it with the necessary firmware update here. I press on the HELP button and power button. I have it very often Try, but i don't come to update mode.. :)
Please can someone help me?
Without flash-disk: You press Power, 0.2..0.5sec wait, press Help (3-5 times very often), but scope loading with "Rigol" screen? This is bad. I went to bootloader after the second attempt.

Offline Binary1955

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2014, 09:12:02 AM »
Thank you very much you helped me. The problem was probably that I had help permanently pressed. :-+
 

Offline cyr

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Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2014, 04:12:48 AM »
I only had my DS4014 for a couple of days before sending it back for repair (bad solder joint of faulty ADC on channel 1, random crap in the sample data which cleared up once the scope had fully warmed up). I did notice some of the same issues...

1. Very slowly work with USB-disks. Writing to 2GB disk *.png 45KB ~18...30sec!

Yes, incredibly slow. I did find though that BMP was much faster, and also the first image saved after putting the USB drive in the scope took longer than the rest.

Quote
9. Channels measurements is by FIFO-principle: when you adding new measurement, old left are deleting

Is this a bug? Unless I misunderstand you, this is how I would want it to work (as I add new measurements, the oldest ones are removed to make room).

Quote
18. On little overload channel signal form like slightly mirror image from up and down (as OPAMP reverse phase effect)

Yes, this is one of the most serious problems IMHO - and one that can't be fixed by a firmware update.

Quote
21. Multi-function Knob change value, when you are press on it (this is bug on all Rigol oscilloscopes)

And that's the most annoying problem...

Quote
39. Offsets for channels on 1mV/div ~0.3...0.5mV (see pictures). Ext probes is absent, channels with internal 50 Ohm

Mine was similar.

I can also add another bug / quirk in regards to waveform update rate. I noticed that it was significantly *higher* with 3-4 channels enabled than with two on many settings. On most timebase settings the numbers I got were lower then the numbers I've seen for the DS2000, which is ridiculous.

I'm getting my money back and will probably be putting it towards a discounted DSO-X 3034A while the current "free bandwidth upgrade" lasts - even though it's almost twice the cost and I actually prefer the Rigol in some ways (better button and screen layout, ethernet as standard, much greater sample memory...).

 


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