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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Altemir on January 10, 2014, 08:49:07 am

Title: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 10, 2014, 08:49:07 am
Hi, all! This is my first impression by quick testing Rigol MSO4024. Please, sorry me for my bad English.

I want to create this post as early REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/) for separate discussion of MSO4000 and DS4000 series of oscilloscopes. Now I have created little report for Rigol's distributor in my country on Russian language "Rigol MSO4024 sw00.02.zip" (this is only report, not firmware!). Now this report is translating by distributor to Rigol company.

This is some bugs from upper document with very little description (sorry).


Known Firmware Bugs/Issues
(red indicates latest FW version available, italic indicates requires for testing - please, inform me about results)


1. Very slowly work with USB-disks. Writing to 2GB disk *.png 45KB ~18...30sec with ~50% filled USB-disk! With clean and formatted drive you take ~8...10sec
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

2. "Print" button can't save all screen, only signal and grid.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04]

4. Not informative progress-bar, when disk writing is active
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

7. Fonts with eng words has little character interval, bad smoothing. File manager's font with big character interval for Unicode's Cyrillic symbols
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

8. No nonvolatile through-counter for saved files (see comments in my RU report)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

9. Considerable inconvenience. Channels measurements is by FIFO-principle: when you adding new measurement, old left are deleting
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

14. Considerable inconvenience. Very primitive cursor measurements for XY-mode
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

16. Not stable V_RMS-measurements for >10 periods of unchangeable sin signal on different time-bases (~2..3%)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

17. On little overload channel V_RMS is not readable
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

18. On little overload channel signal form like slightly mirror image from up and down (as OPAMP reverse phase effect)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

20. Some big freezes with FFT math
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

21. Multi-function Knob change value, when you are press on it (this is bug on all Rigol oscilloscopes)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

29. Automatic menu hiding work in spurts
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

30. Moir of signal with big time-base in some cases
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

31. As for DS2000. ANTI-ALIASING does not prevent waveform aliasing to any degree, on some big time-bases signal is absent completely, freezes of scope.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

32. As for DS2000. There is a bug when using DOTS mode with AUTO memory depths @ >= 5us/div. It affects the waveform update rate (much reduced) - and can also affect the visible display of the waveform.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

33. Near as DS2000. Changing intensity of signal, when enabling second channel (see pictures from my RU report)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

34. Auto power on, when external power 220V cable disconnect/connect to oscilloscope
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04]

37. HiRes mode. On time-base @ >= 5ms/div signal is absent with CH1 only enabling, but freq-counter working properly (100-1000Hz sine). We can see signal, when CH2, or CH3+CH4 are been enabling.
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

39. Offsets for channels on 1mV/div ~0.3...0.5mV (see pictures). Ext probes is absent, channels with internal 50 Ohm
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

22. Not mine. Freezes with logic analyzer (LA) at I2C mode: Scope comparison during I2C decoding Part 1 (http://youtu.be/RxRIX0eFNyw) and Scope comparison during I2C decoding Part 2 (http://youtu.be/Q5bFakNxJns)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

23. Not mine. Phase shift of result sequence and phase jitter for LA at parallel mode RIGOL MSO4000 Parallel Trigger and Decode (http://youtu.be/gkdEP0Qvzec)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

24. Not mine. Not working LA decoder after power off/on for SPI-mode: Rigol oscilloscope spi decode bug (http://youtu.be/pNevqmlDkxM)
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]



Result of tests and measurements:

Frequency response tests (http://www.mediafire.com/download/1zd8yn4up166qu8/Frequency%20response%20tests.zip)
Pulse tests (http://www.mediafire.com/download/i2ndb9hnm7v14b3/Pulse%20tests.zip)



Firmware links:

Global folder (https://www.mediafire.com/folder/8zmna1c2yaxhx/Firmwares)
Firmware upgrade procedure (http://www.mediafire.com/view/caf1cxfvc0e3504/DS2000%20DS4000%20DS6000%20firmware%20upgrade%20procedure.pdf)
Changelog (http://www.mediafire.com/view/xd5d1xcb81p3koy/Changelog.txt)

FW_00.02.01.00.03 (http://www.mediafire.com/download/up3nxhell13bbkd/DS4000(DSP)update_00.02.01.00.03.zip)

500MHz patched FW_00.02.01.00.03:  w w w.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754



Edit 1. Formatting post, adding new firmware, correcting waveform rating (thanks to tized), added new screenshots
Edit 2. Autopower is with disable option. No bug #34. Adding Table with Bandwidth in High Res mode (memory=AUTO), light green - x2 better, than DS2000
Edit 3. Reorganized mediafire folder, added Changelog.txt link and firmware upgrade procedure. Edited bug #1. Bugs #9, #14 is considerable inconvenience now.
Edit 4. Reorganized mediafire folder, added Frequency response tests and Pulse tests links, corrected FR images


Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on January 10, 2014, 09:04:15 am
I have a MSO4024 as well.  So far I share most of your thoughts, although there is a new firmware available, 2.01 which seems to have helped the crashing on protocol decoding.  Mine hasn't crashed since the upgrade.

If I was still within my 30 day testing window of my distributor I'd probably send it back and order a Hameg HMO3000.  My recommendation to anyone here, unless you need the price/value of a hacked 500Mhz unit, look toward the Agilent 3000/Hameg HMO3000.  In saying that, if the hacks work on the new MSOs, a 500Mhz, 4-channel scope with all the options enabled is hard to beat for $4000.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: tized on January 10, 2014, 08:47:20 pm
Strange...I get nowhere near the same wfm/s rate in vector mode. Furthermore, just changing the amplitude will make it drop the rate by more than 10kwfms. In dots it behaves like the table and changing the amplitude has no effect. See screen captures below, counter is set to external trigger, which is connected to the trigger out.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 10, 2014, 09:15:05 pm
tized
What is your firmware?
My tests has been made with 1Vp-p sine wave and 200mV/div setting. Frequency was measured with DG4162 counter.
Rigol recommendation: 4 div input amplitude.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: tized on January 10, 2014, 09:38:11 pm
tized
What is your firmware?
My tests has been made with 1Vp-p sine wave and 200mV/div setting. Frequency was measured with DG4162 counter.
Rigol recommendation: 4 div input amplitude.

Software version:  00.02.00.00.04
Hardware version: 0.1.3.1

Just tried with 1Vp-p, 10MHz on 200mV/div -
Vectors:
2ns/div - 72,400
5ns/div - 73,450
10ns/div - 81,850
20ns/div - 43,280

Dots:
2ns/div - 106,670
5ns/div - 114,204
10ns/div - 115,906
20ns/div - 63,943

The trigger rate in dots is also more stable than in vector.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 10, 2014, 10:32:09 pm
tized
Yes, you are right. My DG4162 (fw 01.00.07) was wrong for some frequencies. I remeasure with Agilent 53230A. Need some time...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 11, 2014, 09:45:16 am
A have edited my first post. DG4162 did not can measure some higher frequencies with 50 Ohm counter input. I got double frequencies with it bug. Now all results are correct.
With new firmware 00.02.01.00.03 we can save all screen or only signals and grid. We taken additional modes and tests in advanced Utility menu.
Who can comment: Gain1 , Gain2, EqualCal, DelayCal, ProbeCal, etc?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2014, 04:32:28 am
Altemir: Thanks for your efforts!

I'm curious about the digital channels plus frame recording on the MSO4000. Can you record with digital channels on? Does the DSO capture the digital information in the frames?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 12, 2014, 05:23:59 am
Oh, there should not be so many bugs. The DS4000 platform is not new and the scope is not cheap.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2014, 07:01:06 am
1. Very slowly work with USB-disks. Writing to 2GB disk *.png 45KB ~18...30sec!
[FW v.00.02.00.00.04] / [FW v.00.02.01.00.03]

Use my RUU utility software. Screen captures to PC take ~2.5s over USB or ~6s over LAN.

A new version is coming soon which will fully support all channels on the DS4000.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 12, 2014, 08:23:07 am
Have you seen these MSO4000 reviews?
http://www.youtube.com/user/WeBeEngineers (http://www.youtube.com/user/WeBeEngineers)
RIGOL MSO4000 Review Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IrZy24BuCA#ws)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2014, 08:39:22 am
Have you seen these MSO4000 reviews?

The OP already posted MSO4000 videos by the same guy here in this thread. Look at his links in bug #22, 23, and 24.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on January 12, 2014, 11:17:57 am
Oh, there should not be so many bugs. The DS4000 platform is not new and the scope is not cheap.

That's exactly what I was thinking.  The 4000 is definitely "professionally" priced.  The quality should be of the same caliber.  They've certainly had more than enough time to address any bugs found in the unit.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 12, 2014, 01:06:15 pm
It depends on what you need. The DSOX3000 is probably more mature and responsive, but it has only 4Mpoints memory (Per channel? Per four channels? It is not clear from the datasheet.) But Rigol DS4000 has 140Mpoints memory per four two channels...
EDIT: Correction.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on January 12, 2014, 04:08:30 pm
It depends on what you need. The DSOX3000 is probably more mature and responsive, but it has only 4Mpoints memory (Per channel? Per four channels? It is not clear from the datasheet.) But Rigol DS4000 has 140Mpoints memory per four channels...

Stock on the DSOX3000 is 1M/channel, or 2M with the option.  In half-channel mode, it doubles those.  So the 4M max is for one channel of a two channel scope, or two channels of a four channel model.

The tradeoff for the shorter memory depths is a 1 million waveform/sec update rate.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TomThomas on January 13, 2014, 12:56:15 am
It depends on what you need. The DSOX3000 is probably more mature and responsive, but it has only 4Mpoints memory (Per channel? Per four channels? It is not clear from the datasheet.) But Rigol DS4000 has 140Mpoints memory per four channels...

Hi Hydrawerk,
not completely right. Rigol has 140Mpts splitted over two channels. Means completely 280Mpts splitted over 4 Channels.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 13, 2014, 03:07:52 am
I'm curious about the digital channels plus frame recording on the MSO4000. Can you record with digital channels on? Does the DSO capture the digital information in the frames?
Thank you fo your interest! Whether I understood you correctly?
1. Wfrm/s only for digital channels
2. Wfrm/s for analog+digital channels
3. Ability to waveform recording in segmented memory for digital channels

I can do it tomorrow or the day only.

Quote from: marmad
Use my RUU utility software. Screen captures to PC take ~2.5s over USB or ~6s over LAN.
Thank you for your software. I will use it at near time, but I do not always have the opportunity to connect PC with DSO in laboratory. DS1000D can save image to USB-flash for 1-2sec with less powerfull hardware!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on January 13, 2014, 09:40:15 am
DS1000D can save image to USB-flash for 1-2sec with less powerfull hardware!

True.  However, there are 2 things you're overlooking:

1)  the screen on the 1000D is only 320x234.  Vs. 800x480 on the 4000.  That's a 5x difference right there.

2)  the 1000D can not save PNGs to USB memory sticks, at all.  Only BMPs.  So you're comparing apples vs. oranges (compressed vs. uncompressed image files).

Saving large uncompressed BMPs on your 4000 will be faster than PNGs, even though they're bigger.  That's because the processor in the 4000 (or the code) isn't very fast at compressing BMPs down to PNGs.  Probably not surprising.

[ADDED:  So the best approach is probably to save BMPs to the USB stick (fastest), then convert them to PNGs on your PC (smallest).]

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 13, 2014, 04:40:17 pm
Mark_O
No, saving to *.bmp is not better, ~18sec under the same conditions.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 14, 2014, 04:42:40 am
I'm curious about the digital channels plus frame recording on the MSO4000. Can you record with digital channels on? Does the DSO capture the digital information in the frames?
I measured waveform update rate for analog channels with and without LA-channels. No significant differences from first post's table. Yes, MSO can record analog+digital channels simultaneously to segmented memory.

I have sent bug report from first post to Chinas-s Rigol. They got it and promised to investigate this report.
New table at first post - frequency bandwidth for High Res mode. Memory=AUTO, light green - x2 better, than DS2000
Can anybody say me, what type of FPGA (full marking) used in MSO4000?

marmad
How do you add a full-scale pictures to body of first post "REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol"?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2014, 05:20:08 am
I measured waveform update rate for analog channels with an without LA-channels. No significant differences from first post's table. Yes, MSO can record analog+digital channels simultaneously to segmented memory.
Great - that's a powerful feature! Thanks for checking that.

Quote
How do you add a full-scale pictures to body of first post "REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol"?
Just copy the link to the image inside an image tag in the post. For example:

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/?action=dlattach;attach=76540)

If you "Quote" this post, you'll see the tags.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Binary1955 on January 14, 2014, 08:49:32 am
Hi I have a DS4054 and wanted it with the necessary firmware update here. I press on the HELP button and power button. I have it very often Try, but i don't come to update mode.. :)
Please can someone help me?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 14, 2014, 09:07:31 am
Hi I have a DS4054 and wanted it with the necessary firmware update here. I press on the HELP button and power button. I have it very often Try, but i don't come to update mode.. :)
Please can someone help me?
Without flash-disk: You press Power, 0.2..0.5sec wait, press Help (3-5 times very often), but scope loading with "Rigol" screen? This is bad. I went to bootloader after the second attempt.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Binary1955 on January 14, 2014, 09:12:02 am
Thank you very much you helped me. The problem was probably that I had help permanently pressed. :-+
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: cyr on January 15, 2014, 04:12:48 am
I only had my DS4014 for a couple of days before sending it back for repair (bad solder joint of faulty ADC on channel 1, random crap in the sample data which cleared up once the scope had fully warmed up). I did notice some of the same issues...

1. Very slowly work with USB-disks. Writing to 2GB disk *.png 45KB ~18...30sec!

Yes, incredibly slow. I did find though that BMP was much faster, and also the first image saved after putting the USB drive in the scope took longer than the rest.

Quote
9. Channels measurements is by FIFO-principle: when you adding new measurement, old left are deleting

Is this a bug? Unless I misunderstand you, this is how I would want it to work (as I add new measurements, the oldest ones are removed to make room).

Quote
18. On little overload channel signal form like slightly mirror image from up and down (as OPAMP reverse phase effect)

Yes, this is one of the most serious problems IMHO - and one that can't be fixed by a firmware update.

Quote
21. Multi-function Knob change value, when you are press on it (this is bug on all Rigol oscilloscopes)

And that's the most annoying problem...

Quote
39. Offsets for channels on 1mV/div ~0.3...0.5mV (see pictures). Ext probes is absent, channels with internal 50 Ohm

Mine was similar.

I can also add another bug / quirk in regards to waveform update rate. I noticed that it was significantly *higher* with 3-4 channels enabled than with two on many settings. On most timebase settings the numbers I got were lower then the numbers I've seen for the DS2000, which is ridiculous.

I'm getting my money back and will probably be putting it towards a discounted DSO-X 3034A while the current "free bandwidth upgrade" lasts - even though it's almost twice the cost and I actually prefer the Rigol in some ways (better button and screen layout, ethernet as standard, much greater sample memory...).

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on January 15, 2014, 04:24:16 am

Saving large uncompressed BMPs on your 4000 will be faster than PNGs, even though they're bigger.  That's because the processor in the 4000 (or the code) isn't very fast at compressing BMPs down to PNGs.  Probably not surprising.

[ADDED:  So the best approach is probably to save BMPs to the USB stick (fastest), then convert them to PNGs on your PC (smallest).]

If you haven't seen it, there is an excellent screen capture utility here:

http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/)

Works on Linux/Mac/Windblows, no other drivers or software required.  Also works for the DSA815, probably other Rigol as well.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 15, 2014, 05:07:46 am
1. Very slowly work with USB-disks. Writing to 2GB disk *.png 45KB ~18...30sec!

Yes, incredibly slow. I did find though that BMP was much faster, and also the first image saved after putting the USB drive in the scope took longer than the rest.
I tested this bug today once again and what I has find: if USB-disk was formatted to FAT16 and it was without any files/dirs, MSO issue this results:
My USB-disk has ~30 files in main dir, ~10 dirs with ~20-30 files in each at the begining before formatting. MSO was very slow under such conditions, then it can't save any files on this drive. I have an acceptable results now, but *.png is a very bad choice for speed.

Quote
9. Channels measurements is by FIFO-principle: when you adding new measurement, old left are deleting
Is this a bug?
Yes, it is so. More datailed reasons I expressed at my RU bug-report. This is just awful for my laboratory's measurements and unlike the other my Tek and Lecroy scopes.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2014, 05:15:21 am
Quote
9. Channels measurements is by FIFO-principle: when you adding new measurement, old left are deleting
Is this a bug?
Yes, it is so. More datailed reasons I expressed at my RU bug-report. This is just awful for my laboratory's measurements and unlike the other my Tek and Lecroy scopes.

No it isn't: it's an interface-design issue. You might not like it - but it's working as designed - and so it's *not* a bug.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 15, 2014, 05:29:39 am
No it isn't: it's an interface-design issue. You might not like it - but it's working as designed - and so it's *not* a bug.
Everything is relative :) I will correct it in bug-list.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on January 15, 2014, 05:32:48 am
Quote
21. Multi-function Knob change value, when you are press on it (this is bug on all Rigol oscilloscopes)
And that's the most annoying problem...

I think most of this problem is the slow/laggy response of the encoder/display.  The system is still registering that you moved the multifunction knob while you press it in, the system finally updates the screen to one more position (past the option you were attempting to chose, but because it is no laggy you thought it was finished moving/updating) and it is chosen instead.

Yes very annoying, especially for a $4k instrument.  If you slowly move the knob and wait for it to update it works fine, better not be in any hurry though...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2014, 05:54:00 am
I think most of this problem is the slow/laggy response of the encoder/display.  The system is still registering that you moved the multifunction knob while you press it in, the system finally updates the screen to one more position (past the option you were attempting to chose, but because it is no laggy you thought it was finished moving/updating) and it is chosen instead.

Yes, but it's only a problem in Menu overlays; when there are screen overlays (such as the virtual keyboard), there is no lag and you can enter presses at breakneck speeds. The problem is the amount of processing time reassigned to deal with the Menu - you can again see it clearly when MenuDisplay is not infinite: the animation of the retraction of the Menu stutters terribly.

Rigol needs to change the amount of processing time devoted to the Menu (when there is a sub-menu extended) to the same thing it is when there is a screen overlay.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on January 15, 2014, 05:58:10 am
Rigol needs to change the amount of processing time devoted to the Menu (when there is a sub-menu extended) to the same thing it is when there is a screen overlay.

This would be an easy change to make.  I'm guessing this is present in the DS4000s as well, which means they are not going to fix it if it's been there this long.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 18, 2014, 09:56:54 am
Big tests and experiments has been done today. Thanks to MrKrabs for his patch! I placed links to my results in first posts.
Frequency response tests (http://www.mediafire.com/download/1zd8yn4up166qu8/Frequency%20response%20tests.zip)
Pulse tests (http://www.mediafire.com/download/i2ndb9hnm7v14b3/Pulse%20tests.zip)

Some notes.
This is unbelievable! Real 500MHz! Beautiful flat frequency response, good Pulse response (you can make pulse test independently with MSO4024 calibration output: fast edge signal with 500ps rise time). Big thanks to Rigol's engineers! As you can see, for MSO4024 BW(-3dB) is ~350MHz, Rise time ~1.4ns, and for MSO4024_500 it is ~670MHz and ~780ps respectively. So, for this scopes F(-3dB) = ~0.49/t_rise. Is Rigol used in this input paths filter with maximally flat response (high order Butterworth filter)? Rigol writes in DS4k User's guide, that Calculated Rise Time for MSO405X/DS405X is 700 ps. I can see changing between 760...840ps. Is MSO405X/DS405X has different input path yet?

The following quote a little picture of the upper links:
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Binary1955 on January 18, 2014, 10:37:05 am

If you haven't seen it, there is an excellent screen capture utility here:

http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/ (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-bildschirmkopie-lan/)

Works on Linux/Mac/Windblows, no other drivers or software required.  Also works for the DSA815, probably other Rigol as well.

@ dr.diesel

Do you use this program rigol-screen copy-lan in the German version or do you have it in English?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 18, 2014, 10:40:09 am
I have not used yet
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on January 18, 2014, 10:43:38 am
@ dr.diesel
Do you use this program rigol-screen copy-lan in the German version or do you have it in English?

It is English, or perhaps auto-detects.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsivan on January 18, 2014, 10:52:04 am
Hello to all,I'm investigating about fan noise of my ds4014 and discovered inside chips are very hot!, expecially 4 ic without heatsink which reach 80c, after some check I ordered from rs 9 heatsink 4x 17x17 and 5x 10x10 self adhesive, and result was good now if you see  second ir pic with only one heatsink fitted see difference... ,about fan I replaced with noctua make running at about 1000rpm, fitted reverse pushing air inside and 10-15° inclined to center, this decrease a lot the noise and cooling seem to be good, now temp is max 27 from system stat, before was 34-36 max at about 17c room
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: AndersAnd on January 18, 2014, 06:15:06 pm
Is it the A/D-converters?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsivan on January 18, 2014, 06:17:48 pm
I think are adc converters
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: AndersAnd on January 18, 2014, 06:20:48 pm
So all the black heatsinks were added by you and all the silver heatsinks were factory mounted?

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/?action=dlattach;attach=77253;image)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsivan on January 18, 2014, 06:22:22 pm
yes all black what I mounted
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: AndersAnd on January 18, 2014, 06:25:09 pm
I think are adc converters
Or maybe it's the 4 PGAs (programmable gain amplifiers)? Or are these mounted below the analog front-end shield?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 19, 2014, 01:26:48 am
I think, that it is adc. Pga and equaliser is under shield.
Can anyone make a pulse test with patched DS/MSO401x? Screenshots will be nice, as I has done upper.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on January 19, 2014, 01:45:02 am
I think, that it is adc. Pga and equaliser is under shield.

Definitely the ADCs. Possibly Ruifeng MXT2001s.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: discopope on January 19, 2014, 03:00:35 am
Can anyone make a pulse test with patched DS/MSO401x? Screenshots will be nice, as I has done upper.

Here are some from a MSO4014 and a Tek DPO 4032 for comparison. Signal source was the calibration output from the MSO.

The last one, with 'FWPatch' in the file name is the one with the new firmware.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: commongrounder on January 19, 2014, 03:46:33 am
@rsivan

Thanks for sharing your DS4000 heat sink modification.  I am interested in this, along with the fan change, in an effort to reduce the noise of my DS4000 series scope.  I wonder if the addition of the heat sinks might affect the electrical operation of the chips in any way.  Rigol may have left them off for reasons other than just cutting manufacturing costs.  An interaction like this might only be apparent at higher frequencies and would have to be tested, I suppose.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 19, 2014, 05:24:49 am
I wonder if it is normal for the DS4000 ICs to be so hot. Maybe yes. Even the ICs in Dave's TDS3000 were pretty hot.
http://youtu.be/qXGqDDE9-4M?t=12m24s (http://youtu.be/qXGqDDE9-4M?t=12m24s)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsivan on January 19, 2014, 06:06:27 am
A chip working at 80c is not going to work lifetime at 40-50 will be better anyway I can bring a ground on heatsink to make good shield one important thing putting fan reverse pushing air inside cool chip a lot more because pulling air will make air drain from edge of case and zone close to last bga and temp sensor much hot,
 now temp max after 2-3h is 26-27
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: cubitus on January 19, 2014, 07:52:54 am
Hello,

I just bought the MSO4014. (10/01/2014)
I disassemble, and I'm guessing that he is not new!  :wtf:
There are traces of dust on the fan and the circuit.
Can be found on the PCB manufacturing date?
thank you
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sparky on January 19, 2014, 08:12:46 am
Hello,

I just bought the MSO4014. (10/01/2014)
I disassemble, and I'm guessing that he is not new!  :wtf:
There are traces of dust on the fan and the circuit.
Can be found on the PCB manufacturing date?
thank you

The year and week of manufacture is incorporated in the serial number. 

For example, on a DS2000 series scope the serial is something like: DS2A1427xxxxx  In this case, the 14 indicates year 2012, and the 27 is the week of the year of manufacture.

For the years: 14 = 2012, 15 = 2013, 16 = 2014, etc.

So, you can determine the manufacture date using your serial number.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: cubitus on January 19, 2014, 08:24:06 am
Ok thank you

DS4C1544.....

28 oct 2013
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TomThomas on January 20, 2014, 10:00:07 pm
Hello,

I just bought the MSO4014. (10/01/2014)
I disassemble, and I'm guessing that he is not new!  :wtf:
There are traces of dust on the fan and the circuit.
Can be found on the PCB manufacturing date?
thank you

Hi
did you complain about this at Rigol/your dealer?
What did they respond?
rgds
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on January 20, 2014, 10:18:35 pm
did you complain about this at Rigol/your dealer?
What did they respond?

Probably, "Why did you void your warranty by opening it?"
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 21, 2014, 03:28:10 am
Anyone done calibration (over advanced menu) and self-calibration of the DS4k?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: cubitus on January 21, 2014, 06:36:36 am
Anyone done calibration (over advanced menu) and self-calibration of the DS4k?
28 nov 2013

At the moment I'm negotiating with my dealer for either compensation or an exchange.
For him the instrument is new and has not been used ...

I look and I see

Do you know the differences in the Harware Version 1.3 and 1.31?

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 21, 2014, 06:44:11 am
28 nov 2013
Do you know the differences in the Harware Version 1.3 and 1.31?
You personally did calibration, or factory? No, I don't know about differencies. You want to return the oscilloscope to the dealer? Why?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: commongrounder on January 21, 2014, 07:00:35 am
@cubitus:
I am concerned that you are thinking of returning a perfectly functional scope for dust on the fan/board.  I doubt that the Rigol factory uses clean-rooms to burn in their scopes for several hours before shipping them.  Also, if the scope needed a touch-up in the factory, like, for instance a cold joint or loose part, the scope could have gone through the burn in process twice.  I personally wouldn't mind a bit of dust to know my scope was going to work correctly.   Just a thought....
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: cubitus on January 21, 2014, 07:23:30 am

Some traces ...
For a new device? :o

(http://s13.postimg.org/455q898ab/P1090702.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/455q898ab/)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: iDevice on January 21, 2014, 07:43:59 am
Anyone done calibration (over advanced menu) and self-calibration of the DS4k?
I do a self-calibration every six month or so which is enough for me as it takes about 40m.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 21, 2014, 08:01:13 am
I do a self-calibration every six month or so which is enough for me as it takes about 40m.
This calibration procedure is from DS6000 calibration (http://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Documents/Rigol/DS6102/ds6102_doc_7.pdf) or not? Are You know what, specifically, calibration data will be erased when pressing the button ResumeCal? Can I do only "Equivalent Calibration" after this? Do you use when calibrating the DS6000-Cal-Kit? Are You bought the cable "BNC One-to-Five Cable" or did it yourself?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: AndersAnd on January 21, 2014, 12:06:03 pm
Do you know the differences in the Harware Version 1.3 and 1.31?
The difference is 0.01 ;)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TomThomas on January 21, 2014, 07:03:08 pm

Do you know the differences in the Harware Version 1.3 and 1.31?
[/quote]

What is displayed in your System Information view? 1.3 or 1.3.1?
I'm not aware that there are two different MSO boards available.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: iDevice on January 22, 2014, 09:07:36 am
I do a self-calibration every six month or so which is enough for me as it takes about 40m.
This calibration procedure is from DS6000 calibration (http://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Documents/Rigol/DS6102/ds6102_doc_7.pdf) or not? Are You know what, specifically, calibration data will be erased when pressing the button ResumeCal? Can I do only "Equivalent Calibration" after this? Do you use when calibrating the DS6000-Cal-Kit? Are You bought the cable "BNC One-to-Five Cable" or did it yourself?
The extended calibration procedure of the DS4000 seems similar to what's listed in this DS6000 document, but because I don't have the equivalent instruction for the 4K, I never dared to do it.
The fact is, only the self-call is supposed to be accessible to the final user. We only access the extended menu because someone leaked the code sequence.
But so far, I never felt the need for anything else than the self-cal, because what is meant to be calibrated by the other procedures has always been spot-on on my scope.
All the offsets or metering errors I've had so far were always fixed by the self-cal.
I never tried to do a ResumeCal as self-cal never failed.

I bought the official Rigol's DS4K calibration kit from Batronix because it is so cheap that you cannot build it yourself for less, unless you recycle old connectors.
It is just 6 BNC-BNC cables and a BNC splitter on a PCB, totally equivalent and interchangeable with the one for the DS6K.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 22, 2014, 09:19:20 am
...The fact is, only the self-call is supposed to be accessible to the final user. We only access the extended menu because someone leaked the code sequence.
Thanks for your description. Inputs to advanced menu are described in the DS6000 calibration procedure, but not in leaked code :) Did you Delay-calibration of the DS4000?

Quote
It is just 6 BNC-BNC cables and a BNC splitter on a PCB, totally equivalent and interchangeable with the one for the DS6K.
Can you put pictures of the Cal-Kit on the forum? Please.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: discopope on January 22, 2014, 03:49:22 pm
It is propbaly this one:
http://images.batronix.com/products/oscilloscopes/Rigol/Accessories/RigolScopeCalibrationSet-1200-789.jpg (http://images.batronix.com/products/oscilloscopes/Rigol/Accessories/RigolScopeCalibrationSet-1200-789.jpg)
looks like a pretty simple 1to5 BNC adaptor with controlled propagation, maybe controlled impedance, it seems to have a ground plane
on the other side.
It is advertised in the batronix shop as 'Calibration kit for the self calibration of the Rigol DS4000 and DS6000 oscilloscope series.'
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Altemir on January 22, 2014, 05:00:01 pm
It is propbaly this one...
This picture I've seen. I would like a more detailed picture of the entire set from real users, because the document is given a different picture of the cable.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: iDevice on January 23, 2014, 08:37:59 am
It is propbaly this one:
http://images.batronix.com/products/oscilloscopes/Rigol/Accessories/RigolScopeCalibrationSet-1200-789.jpg (http://images.batronix.com/products/oscilloscopes/Rigol/Accessories/RigolScopeCalibrationSet-1200-789.jpg)
looks like a pretty simple 1to5 BNC adaptor with controlled propagation, maybe controlled impedance, it seems to have a ground plane
on the other side.
It is advertised in the batronix shop as 'Calibration kit for the self calibration of the Rigol DS4000 and DS6000 oscilloscope series.'
Yes, this is the one, and I bought it from Batronix like all of my Rigol T/M gear.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: iDevice on January 23, 2014, 09:00:56 am
It is propbaly this one...
This picture I've seen. I would like a more detailed picture of the entire set from real users, because the document is given a different picture of the cable.
Well, I would consider myself as a real user, I guess...  :-DD
But I don't see what I could show better than the picture from the Batronix site.
The document you referenced is for the DS6000 which shows the cable kit they proposed at that time when the 6K series got out which is by now the oldest member of the InfiniVision series.
The 4k kit is more recent and looks a bit more professional, in my opinion, than the crappy harness shown in the DS6k doc.
But, anyway, you can setup something as crappy yourself as long as you respect the paths lengths, or with standard cable and just 4 2F1M BNC T's. Obviously, with the T's, the fifth output cable must be a bit longer to compensate the T cascades on one side of the first T.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: AndersAnd on January 23, 2014, 09:35:58 am
I bought the official Rigol's DS4K calibration kit from Batronix because it is so cheap that you cannot build it yourself for less, unless you recycle old connectors.
It is just 6 BNC-BNC cables and a BNC splitter on a PCB, totally equivalent and interchangeable with the one for the DS6K.
Yes I just checked the price: http://www.batronix.com/shop/accessory/test-equipment.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/accessory/test-equipment.html)
EUR 29.- / USD 40.50 + VAT

For that price it's not worth making your own PCB + 6 BNC-BNC cables.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on January 24, 2014, 01:29:13 pm
anyone had trouble with the trigger on the DS4000?  I have a DS4014 and I've noticed that with simple serial data the rising and falling edge trigger doesn't seem to work correctly.  I've also noticed that the rising edge trigger doesn't always work properly depending on subtle trigger level changes.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jboard146 on January 24, 2014, 05:02:22 pm
I've also seen that the trigger doesn't always work.

The other thing that is veru annoying is the decode doesn't refresh when "zooming in or out" changing the time divisions. I've mostly noticed this on the I2C decode, but don't use the other decoders too much.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on January 25, 2014, 12:33:40 am
anyone had trouble with the trigger on the DS4000?  I have a DS4014 and I've noticed that with simple serial data the rising and falling edge trigger doesn't seem to work correctly.  I've also noticed that the rising edge trigger doesn't always work properly depending on subtle trigger level changes.

I was playing around with the serial line decoder. It didn't happen always but I got the scope to hang up twice. It was a funny thing since I've set it up to restore last settings after power on - so it hang up every time I powered it on again automatically. After all I've found how to reset it during the boot process.

The bus protocols seem not to be one of Rigol's strength. However it doesn't matter to me, I've got the Hameg HMO in parallel, which has got much better bus decoding options than Rigol.


Rgds
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on January 25, 2014, 12:39:29 am
I was playing around with the serial line decoder. It didn't happen always but I got the scope to hang up twice. It was a funny thing since I've set it up to restore last settings after power on - so it hang up every time I powered it on again automatically. After all I've found how to reset it during the boot process.


Are you running the new firmware, 00.02.01?  I was having lockup problems as well until I upgraded.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 25, 2014, 03:37:11 am
The bus protocols seem not to be one of Rigol's strength. However it doesn't matter to me, I've got the Hameg HMO in parallel, which has got much better bus decoding options than Rigol.
Rgds
Gunb
Although that Hameg has only 2500 waveforms per second and it looks like a small poor scope... But in fact it is a compact powerful machine from Germany.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Dan Ma on January 30, 2014, 12:01:42 am
Just got my MSO4000 2 days ago and I tried to save mixed signal Analog not problem Digital part from LA ? I am unable to find the menu. Checked the manual still no clue. Called up the sales support from my reseller, answer they need to ask Rigol.  Did I miss something obvious or is it Rigol.

Regards,
DM
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on January 30, 2014, 07:19:42 pm
The bus protocols seem not to be one of Rigol's strength. However it doesn't matter to me, I've got the Hameg HMO in parallel, which has got much better bus decoding options than Rigol.
Rgds
Gunb
Although that Hameg has only 2500 waveforms per second and it looks like a small poor scope... But in fact it is a compact powerful machine from Germany.

"Only" is only mentioned because Agilent (Keysight) makes big stories about wfm/s to sell their expensive scopes - where most of the users don't need really high wfm/s.

Most of users of scopes for general purpose don't need such high wfm/s including myself although I've got a few scopes in my office which make up to 1mio wfm/s.

Meanwhile Hameg has increased the wfm/s of the current HMO3000 series to 4800wfm/s and it has got a real trigger output not only a passthrough which enables to measure the wfm/s - if needed.

Got one on my desk with 500MHz bandwidth, so you're right, it is a real powerful as the previous HMOs, too and I prefer the size very much since it's the perfect partner on my desk where other devices have to be placed on the cupboard.

The Rigol is not bad, firmware issues are quite common to all todays manufacturers. Even Agilent has got firmware issues, found them already.

Rgds
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on January 30, 2014, 07:22:46 pm

Are you running the new firmware, 00.02.01?  I was having lockup problems as well until I upgraded.

Hmm, will check that when I'm home again.


Rgds
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on January 31, 2014, 07:54:54 am
Are you running the new firmware, 00.02.01?  I was having lockup problems as well until I upgraded.

Well, I've got firmware 00.02.00 on my DS4012.

... and I've just started updating the scope to 00.02.01  ....

Kind regards
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on February 03, 2014, 07:48:20 pm
Well, meanwhile I've flashed the scope with version 00.02.01 and the serial decoder problems seems to be solved, i.e., it does not freeze anymore.

But I've lost the 500MHz bandwidth "option" and I've fallen back to the origin 100 MHz (oops, I assumed that would happen)  :-/O

Hmm, I would like have both in common (without using a JTAG and open the scope anytime when a new update is released) :-DD
Any idea / experience if this can be done somehow? 


Kind regards
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: tized on February 03, 2014, 08:00:25 pm
Well, meanwhile I've flashed the scope with version 00.02.01 and the serial decoder problems seems to be solved, i.e., it does not freeze anymore.

But I've lost the 500MHz bandwidth "option" and I've fallen back to the origin 100 MHz (oops, I assumed that would happen)  :-/O

Hmm, I would like have both in common (without using a JTAG and open the scope anytime when a new update is released) :-DD
Any idea / experience if this can be done somehow? 


Kind regards
Gunb

From the main Rigol "modifications" thread:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754)

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on February 03, 2014, 08:06:31 pm

From the main Rigol "modifications" thread:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754)

Thank you very much Sir!

I decorate you with the sticker "Hero of the day!"  :-+
(Although I've followed the linked thread more or less from the beginning meanwhile it's hard to follow  ;) )


Have a nice day
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: cubitus on February 05, 2014, 03:39:22 am
Hello,

Do you know any software to operate the MSO4000 series?
I found:
RigolBildschirmkopieLAN, it makes the screenshot
RUU it also makes the screenshot.

I have not found a program that works to read files. WFM

Is that you better?

Thank you

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on February 05, 2014, 03:42:39 am
I have not found a program that works to read files. WFM

RUU will do it for DS4000s soon... working on a new version.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on February 05, 2014, 06:21:01 am
Hi,
Seeing that the "other" Rigol thread is mostly on the DS2000 and now the 1000 series I thought I'd post here instead.
Yesterday I applied MrKrabs edition of the 02.01.00.03 DS4000 firmware and it worked like a charm, all options stayed intact, thanks MrKrabs!

In another thread someone mentioned the decoders not operating on recorded frames, something that sounded a bit strange to me - say it isn't so I said to myself. Unfortunately that does seem to be the case (I only tested the RS232 decoder). I thought perhaps the frames had to be recorded with the decoder active but that doesn't work either - as soon as you press the record button the decoder stops updating. "Browsing" thru the recorded frames doesn't do anything with the decoded data on the screen, it just stays the way it was at the moment you pressed Record. Using the wavefor analysis function in order to "preview" the frames at the bottom of the screen the preview to the left of the current of frame somtimes distors badly and this appears to only happen when the decoder is on the screen.

Since the decoders appears to be software driven I really don't see the reason for them not being able to operate on recorded frames.

Don't know if it can be called a bug as I don't think I've seen it stated anywhere that it should work, still kind of a shame though.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on February 05, 2014, 08:25:10 am

In another thread someone mentioned the decoders not operating on recorded frames, something that sounded a bit strange to me - say it isn't so I said to myself. Unfortunately that does seem to be the case (I only tested the RS232 decoder). I thought perhaps the frames had to be recorded with the decoder active but that doesn't work either - as soon as you press the record button the decoder stops updating. "Browsing" thru the recorded frames doesn't do anything with the decoded data on the screen, it just stays the way it was at the moment you pressed Record. Using the wavefor analysis function in order to "preview" the frames at the bottom of the screen the preview to the left of the current of frame somtimes distors badly and this appears to only happen when the decoder is on the screen.


After reading your message I've done a few trials again and agree that the decoders seem not to work with recorded frames as they should. I've noticed the same behaviour as you did. Also got the scope frozen after decoding RS232 data streams with a timebase of 20ms and pressing the ZOOM knob to divide the screen into 2 windows. That does not happen always but it can be reproduced. The reason why I rejected my comment above.


Since the decoders appears to be software driven I really don't see the reason for them not being able to operate on recorded frames.

Don't know if it can be called a bug as I don't think I've seen it stated anywhere that it should work, still kind of a shame though.

Either they should block the decoding completely when switching to recorded frames or they should improve functionality. The current state can be marked as a bug.

The reason why I prefer the Hameg HMO series. It decodes by hardware and has got more options, especially real search functionality and trigger patterns that can be defined by the user.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on February 05, 2014, 08:44:00 am
Quote
Either they should block the decoding completely when switching to recorded frames or they should improve functionality. The current state can be marked as a bug.
I agree, it's misleading having the decoder on screen showing "old" data.

I'd really would've liked them to work on recorded frames, and I'm surprised they don't but can't say if they actually should work. But again, if they aren't meant to work then they should be disabled.

Who's going to ask Rigol about it?   8)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on February 05, 2014, 09:08:24 am
Who's going to ask Rigol about it?   8)

We all should.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: madbblanca on February 06, 2014, 10:16:17 am
Hello everyone.

   Thank  to  Cybernet and MrKrabs.

My DS4024 model to full!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on February 06, 2014, 11:24:16 am
I'd really would've liked them to work on recorded frames, and I'm surprised they don't but can't say if they actually should work. But again, if they aren't meant to work then they should be disabled.

Who's going to ask Rigol about it?   8)

I already did.  But I got an auto-responder, saying they're away for 'Spring Festival' until Feb10 or 11.  I expect to hear back in about a week.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on February 06, 2014, 05:41:57 pm
So did I, autoreply claimed I should expect a reply shortly (no note of any spring festival).
Anyone else?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: commongrounder on February 07, 2014, 01:42:29 am
While we wait for Rigol to return from vacation, I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed their scopes real time clock drifts?  Mine runs a bit slow, to the point I need to be sure and check it and reset it if I want accurate date/time stamps on my files.  I would say it loses a minute (or more) every couple of days or so.  It's not the end of the world, but might like to figure out a fix eventually.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: commongrounder on March 16, 2014, 07:19:59 am
I'm popping this thread to the top because I see that there was a firmware update for the DS2000 series scopes.  I've noticed that updates for the DS2000 and DS4000 series scopes tend to come out very close in time to each other.  I have sent an email to Rigol asking if there is a new DS/MSO4000 FW version in the pipe, along with the above question about the real time clock drifting.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 22, 2014, 01:40:13 am
As somebody mentioned before, MSO4000's waveform update rate goes down when serial decode is enabled. It is clearly visible with naked eyes. Not good on a $4,400 scope! http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/)
Rigol MSO4000 serial decoding slows the scope down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQgcjKU80rw#)
EDIT: The memory was at the lowest setting, 14kpoints per channel.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on March 22, 2014, 01:52:43 am
As somebody mentioned before, MSO4000's waveform update rate goes down when serial decode is enabled. It is clearly visible with naked eyes. Not good on a $4,400 scope! http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/)
Rigol MSO4000 serial decoding slows the scope down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQgcjKU80rw#)

This is only a valid complaint in comparison to other scopes.  Do the Agilents or Teks suffer this as well?  Or do they maintain waveform update.

Are you sure it is a waveform update loss?  Or is it just a screen update loss.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 22, 2014, 02:02:05 am
I think that Agilent does not suffer this, but some Tektronix scopes do.
http://youtu.be/7hM6xXoWtEc?t=1m59s (http://youtu.be/7hM6xXoWtEc?t=1m59s)
http://youtu.be/OgO6s_AtX1I?t=1m56s (http://youtu.be/OgO6s_AtX1I?t=1m56s)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on March 22, 2014, 02:40:07 am
I think that Agilent does not suffer this, but some Tektronix scopes do.
http://youtu.be/7hM6xXoWtEc?t=1m59s (http://youtu.be/7hM6xXoWtEc?t=1m59s)
http://youtu.be/OgO6s_AtX1I?t=1m56s (http://youtu.be/OgO6s_AtX1I?t=1m56s)

I'm not surprised.  I like the Agilent scopes much much better these days than the TEK.  I have an MSO7104B and it is spectacular.  I still like my Rigol ds4014 a lot... except it is 2 months old and already broke!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 22, 2014, 02:56:03 am
Oh, what happened to your Rigol DS4000? It has some disadvantages, but I still think that it is rather a powerful scope...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on March 22, 2014, 04:27:33 am
Oh, what happened to your Rigol DS4000? It has some disadvantages, but I still think that it is rather a powerful scope...

few things:

had 1 bad pixel, luckily it was dark so it wasn't really noticeable.
Then it started having visual glitches
Then channels 3 and 4 started having rail to rail noise with nothing connected to the inputs
Finally of a few more days it got to a point when no scope traces would show on the screen regardless of how the scope was set.

Rigol has had it for over a week and I've not received any update.  Kinda sucks to be down a scope!!!  I've got a lot of other Rigol equip and not had issues for the most part.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on March 22, 2014, 08:07:40 am
As somebody mentioned before, MSO4000's waveform update rate goes down when serial decode is enabled. It is clearly visible with naked eyes. Not good on a $4,400 scope!

EDIT: The memory was at the lowest setting, 14kpoints per channel.

Thanks for the demo.  Also, I'm glad to see that you confined it to the 14k points/channel setting.  More than that doesn't help, and you may be the first I've seen who has done this right.

And yes, it does slow down significantly (i.e., the screen update rate), but I don't think that impaired the usability.  In fact, if it was running at the pre-decode speed, the changes may have been too fast to even read.  Did you feel the slower display updates made it less usable?

This was actually still much faster and more regular than previous similar demos (which had multi-meg sampling enabled, and looked really horrible).
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 22, 2014, 08:17:26 am

Rigol has had it for over a week and I've not received any update.  Kinda sucks to be down a scope!!!  I've got a lot of other Rigol equip and not had issues for the most part.
Well, this may happen to any scope, even Agilent can be faulty sometimes... And you have said that you have other Rigol equipment, that is working properly.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sailor on March 27, 2014, 09:22:58 pm

I'm not surprised.  I like the Agilent scopes much much better these days than the TEK.  I have an MSO7104B and it is spectacular.  I still like my Rigol ds4014 a lot... except it is 2 months old and already broke!

Have you had the MSO7104B for a long time? If so, was there any one (or more) things that prompted you to buy the DS4014, or was it simply to try out something new? I am still tossing up between an Agilent MSO7054B and the Rigol MSO7034, and I keep wondering if all that extra sample memory will make up for the other shortcomings of the Rigol. I'd really appreciate your opinion.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on March 28, 2014, 03:13:26 am
I've had the Agilent MSO7104B for a few months but I had a 7104A with many options on it for several years (at my last startup). 

I got the DS4014 based on price.  It's a real steal.  If cost wasn't an issue I would always go agilent.  At the same price point I might still go Rigol over Tek believe it or not.

As I mentioned Rigol hardware is solid, firmware is okay but a little buggy, PC software is pretty bad compared to what Agilent or Tek has.

Extra sample memory is only useful in certain cases.  I find it most useful for digital, but honestly for digital I usually use the Saleae logic 16 which is dirt cheap compared to a scope so the deep memory doesn't get that much use on the MSO7104A/B or on the ds4014.  If the scope is your primary logic analyzer I'd consider having the extra memory but maybe not enough to go Rigol over Agilent.  Again Rigol is a price play more than anything in my opinion.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 28, 2014, 04:30:32 am
As somebody mentioned before, MSO4000's waveform update rate goes down when serial decode is enabled. It is clearly visible with naked eyes. Not good on a $4,400 scope! http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/)
Rigol MSO4000 serial decoding slows the scope down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQgcjKU80rw#)
EDIT: The memory was at the lowest setting, 14kpoints per channel.
Another comparison...
EDIT:This time nobody knows what the memory setting was at Rigol scope.
Scope comparison during I2C decoding Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxRIX0eFNyw#ws)
Scope comparison during I2C decoding Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5bFakNxJns#ws)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 28, 2014, 04:35:55 am

I'm not surprised.  I like the Agilent scopes much much better these days than the TEK.  I have an MSO7104B and it is spectacular.  I still like my Rigol ds4014 a lot... except it is 2 months old and already broke!

Have you had the MSO7104B for a long time? If so, was there any one (or more) things that prompted you to buy the DS4014, or was it simply to try out something new? I am still tossing up between an Agilent MSO7054B and the Rigol MSO7034, and I keep wondering if all that extra sample memory will make up for the other shortcomings of the Rigol. I'd really appreciate your opinion.

Thanks,
The Rigol has only a segmented memory (called record) and no other tools for long memory management. No Search or automatic scroll. No marks possible. Nothing like Waveform Inspector on Tektronix scopes AFAIK.
On the other hand, the segmented memory is quite impressive.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on March 28, 2014, 07:13:09 am
Hydra, while your demonstration was valid, because you selected an appropriate sample depth, those others you linked to were completely bogus.  As I already pointed out (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1074z-4-channel-or-ds2072-2-channel-oscilloscope/msg377365/#msg377365), a couple months ago, in some detail.

As somebody mentioned before, MSO4000's waveform update rate goes down when serial decode is enabled. It is clearly visible with naked eyes. Not good on a $4,400 scope! http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso4000/mso4024/)
Rigol MSO4000 serial decoding slows the scope down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQgcjKU80rw#)
EDIT: The memory was at the lowest setting, 14kpoints per channel.
Another comparison...
Scope comparison during I2C decoding Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxRIX0eFNyw#ws)
Scope comparison during I2C decoding Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5bFakNxJns#ws)

EDIT:  and even after all this time, I still haven't seen anyone comment on how horrible the analog wave trace of the I2C stream looks on the Tek.  It's just a flickery, blurry mess.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sailor on March 28, 2014, 10:25:24 am

@Gallymimus
Thanks for your comments. I've been using a Tek MSO4034 with the 10MSa option at the office for the last five years or more, and now I want something for home. The designs that I work on are truly mixed-signal and the 10MSa option has been extremely valuable, hence my trepidation at dropping back to the 8MSa of the Agilent. Of course, work-arounds are always possible, but inevitably slow your progress. The slow response of the Rigol GUI irks me, and there are still bugs in what is essentially a DS4000 product that has been on the market for a couple of years.

@Hydrawerk
Exactly. Quite coincidentally, just yesterday I spoke to John South (Emona Product Manager for Rigol) about the lack of Mark/Search capability, and he is going to ask if there is anything in the pipeline. I sent him a screen shot from my Tek to illustrate a cursor problem, and he is finding out if that is just a FW update (my demo machine has version 00.02.00.00.04) or if it's something that will need further work. So the distributor support seems responsive, let's see if it translates into action.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sailor on April 02, 2014, 11:34:25 pm
Does everyone else have problems with RS232 decoding on a DS4000/MSO4000 at the higher baud rates (e.g. 57600, 115200, ...)? Whether or not it works correctly seems to depend on several things such as memory size, T/B time/div, and the delay between characters. If no one else has these problems I'll describe the details of what I see, otherwise I'll put it down as just another bug.

Firmware version is 00.02.01.00.03.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on April 02, 2014, 11:51:41 pm
Serial decode is definitely not "robust", perhaps useable but quirky?

I could accept it on the 1000/2000 series, not on the 4000s.  I've reported it to Rigol, they don't give a shit.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sailor on April 03, 2014, 12:23:10 am
Serial decode is definitely not "robust", perhaps useable but quirky?


I think your being generous.

Do others have significant problems?

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 03, 2014, 11:19:46 am
Does everyone else have problems with RS232 decoding on a DS4000/MSO4000 at the higher baud rates (e.g. 57600, 115200, ...)?
@Sailor I think the DS2000 Firmware was based on the DS4000 ,and in the DS2000 firmware there was a bug that for RS232 decoding of  56K(fixed) was in correcting programmed for 56000!! this was indicated by varying the speed and the center frequency of NO errors was 56000.(55200-56800)
Now if the USER specified rate was  used and set to 57600 the decoding would work OK.
You may wish to give USER a try.

Here are  2 E-mails I received from  Rigol  CN
=====================================
Dear Sir,
   Thank you very much for your report .
I checked with R&D ,it's a mistake in the menu ,it should be 56000bps, we
will fix this bug in next version about 3 months later .
And sorry for the inconvenience bring to you .
Any further questions please feel free to contact me .
Best regards£¬
Vivien Liu/ÁõΡΡ
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir
     OK,I agree with you,I will check with R&D .
Maybe 57600 is right ,then just need change internal programme .
Any further questions please feel free to contact me .
Best regards,
Vivien Liu/???
Marketing Department
RIGOL Technologies,INC.
TEL:010-80706688-811
http://www.rigol.com (http://www.rigol.com)

===========================

Maybe there still is a Bug for 115200 in the DS2000, I'll check
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 03, 2014, 01:33:54 pm
Now if the USER specified rate was  used and set to 57600 the decoding would work OK.
You may wish to give USER a try.

I agree that would be well worth trying.  It may be that the decode itself is actually fine, but the baud rate is off, so it will never sync up properly.

Quote
...E-mails I received from  Rigol  CN
=====================================
we will fix this bug in next version about 3 months later.

That's rather disappointing.  When there are known defects, you're just supposed to live with them for N+3 months.  I don't think the last version was N=0 months ago, so the total time gets long.  And I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time they've heard about this problem.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 03, 2014, 06:36:49 pm
@Sailor
Did you set the  Trigger to RS232, at correct settings?  (rate and levels)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sailor on April 03, 2014, 11:20:13 pm

Thanks for your comments. Yes, Teneyes, the bus setup and the trigger setup are good. My 115200 baud tests use a 1000-byte stream, output at full rate i.e. there is only approx 2 usec from the end of a stop bit to the beginning of the next start bit. The waveform quality and timing is excellent. I have tested different memory sizes, starting with a fast time/div setting, and repeating with slower time/div until it fails. Here are simple results:

Memory = 1.4MB
Works at 2msec/div, 5msec/div (probably also at shorter rates).
Fails at 10, 20, 50, ... ms/div

Memory = 14MB
Works at 2msec/div, 5msec/div (probably also at shorter rates).
Fails at 10, 20, 50, ... ms/div

Memory = 140MB
Works at 2msec/div, 5msec/div, 10msec/div, 20msec/div (probably also at shorter rates).
Fails at 50, 100 ... ms/div

Obviously, as the time/div goes up, the sampling rate decreases, for a given memory size. But the sampling rates at which it works and at which it fails are not consistent across the different memory sizes. I really can't see the logic behind the failures.

Maybe it's something to do with their algorithm. Certainly its fast, only taking 2-3 seconds (although panning back and forward is painful). My Tektronix MSO4034 takes nearly a minute to decode 10MB of memory, but it works every time, every setting, no problem.

Another gripe: Trying to set a USER baud rate is a lost cause on this scope. The numbers change nice and smoothly for a while, then suddenly jump wildly, by hundreds-to-thousands of counts. Turning the knob backwards a little (if the numbers had jumped forward) will often produce a jump back to near the value that you were at when the first jump occurred. Or not!

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on April 03, 2014, 11:45:37 pm
As I wrote earlier in the thread I emailed Rigol with a detailed description of the problems I've had with the decoders on my DS4k. I was quite open to the fact that I had it set up wrong and was hoping for an answer simply telling me that. I also asked for a document outlining how to get the most performance possible out of the decoders.

But no, a gentlemen replied and after some beating around the bush asking me to upgrade the firmware to the version I clearly stated I was already running he said he'd set up a test in order to see if he could reproduce my issues - well, that's kind....  Then I heard nothing.

A week later I emailed him to which he replied that he hadn't made any progress and that, I quote: I expect there are still some issues with the decoder. And that's it.

As I see it, it can be made to kind of "work" but it's so far away from what it could (and should) be that I'd never ever pay what they are charging for it.
IMO it's slow, really slow. And YES I have set the memory depth to minimum, 14kpts. Obviously one can't expect to get performance like on the Agilent 3000X etc due to the software vs hardware aproach to decoding but I still feel it's REALLY SLOOOOW (a couple of frames per second IME). In an effort to get around that I thought I'd use the segmentet memory but the decoders doesn't work on recorded frames....and so on.

So yes, others (like me) are having significant problems and no Rigol doesn't seem to give a shit.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: georges80 on April 04, 2014, 04:45:53 am
Interesting thread and thanks to the folk that have posted to it.

I'm considering a new scope and the toss up (in the $3k - $4k) range is Rigol, Agilent & Tek.

Tek seems a 'little' behind the times in the current state of the art, so bang is less for the buck than the other two. My concern with Rigol is that I think it's a tail trying to wag the dog problem in terms of getting Rigol (US/EU etc) to push for firmware bug fix requests back to the actual developers in China.

Given the cost delta between Rigol and the equivalent bandwidth Agilent is maybe 20 - 30%, this thread has convinced me to focus on the Agilent DSOX2000/3000 series where at least there's a more direct line from sales to tech. For a piece of test equipment that IS used daily and has an expected life cycle of 5+ years, penny wise and pound foolish needs to be addressed in the purchasing process.

cheers,
george.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 04, 2014, 05:09:29 am
Another gripe: Trying to set a USER baud rate is a lost cause on this scope. The numbers change nice and smoothly for a while, then suddenly jump wildly, by hundreds-to-thousands of counts. Turning the knob backwards a little (if the numbers had jumped forward) will often produce a jump back to near the value that you were at when the first jump occurred. Or not!

I agree that trying to use the Multifunction knob for this is a frustrating exercise.  Have you tried using the Navigation knobs?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 04, 2014, 05:53:03 am
I think the DS2000 Firmware was based on the DS4000 (...)
Everything is based on that old DS6000 scope, I think.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on April 04, 2014, 06:02:22 am
The 2000s just got a major firmware revision bump (it's now listed on the Rigol site), perhaps the 4000s will see an improvement soon.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 04, 2014, 06:32:54 am
Another gripe: Trying to set a USER baud rate is a lost cause on this scope. The numbers change nice and smoothly for a while, then suddenly jump wildly, by hundreds-to-thousands of counts. Turning the knob backwards a little (if the numbers had jumped forward) will often produce a jump back to near the value that you were at when the first jump occurred. Or not!
My DS2000 has the Navigation Knob to adjust the USER define Bitrate, Yes the outer Knob jumps , but the inner Know moves 1 bit at a click , it does take many rotation to change 300 counts.
Does the 4000 have the fine control knob?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 04, 2014, 07:43:27 am
The 2000s just got a major firmware revision bump (it's now listed on the Rigol site)...

"Major" in terms of functionality or fixes?  Or "Major" in terms of Version number?  ;)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on April 04, 2014, 07:57:07 am
The 2000s just got a major firmware revision bump (it's now listed on the Rigol site)...

"Major" in terms of functionality or fixes?  Or "Major" in terms of Version number?  ;)

lol, knowing them they just bumped the big number hoping shit would fix itself!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 04, 2014, 08:50:27 am
lol, knowing them they just bumped the big number hoping shit would fix itself!

 :-DD
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on April 04, 2014, 10:34:25 am
Interesting thread and thanks to the folk that have posted to it.

I'm considering a new scope and the toss up (in the $3k - $4k) range is Rigol, Agilent & Tek.

Tek seems a 'little' behind the times in the current state of the art, so bang is less for the buck than the other two. My concern with Rigol is that I think it's a tail trying to wag the dog problem in terms of getting Rigol (US/EU etc) to push for firmware bug fix requests back to the actual developers in China.

Given the cost delta between Rigol and the equivalent bandwidth Agilent is maybe 20 - 30%, this thread has convinced me to focus on the Agilent DSOX2000/3000 series where at least there's a more direct line from sales to tech. For a piece of test equipment that IS used daily and has an expected life cycle of 5+ years, penny wise and pound foolish needs to be addressed in the purchasing process.

cheers,
george.

Sadly I'd have to agree after a unsatisfying warranty repair experience.  Scope was less than 2 months old, they had it for repair for 1 month! They sent it back yesterday with one of the stickers on the back missing and the warranty void sticker "voided".  Adhesive is still showing on the removed stickers.  It looks like second hand junk now which really sucks.  I'm surprised they didn't replace the labels.  Thank god I had other scopes and I wasn't relying on this one.  An entire month without the primary scope probably would put us out of business!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 04, 2014, 12:02:34 pm
Sadly I'd have to agree after a unsatisfying warranty repair experience.  Scope was less than 2 months old, they had it for repair for 1 month! They sent it back yesterday with one of the stickers on the back missing and the warranty void sticker "voided".  Adhesive is still showing on the removed stickers.  It looks like second hand junk now which really sucks.  I'm surprised they didn't replace the labels.  Thank god I had other scopes and I wasn't relying on this one.  An entire month without the primary scope probably would put us out of business!

Well, that's a pretty damning experience!  Did they at least fix the rail-to-rail noise issue, and other problems you were having?


>  It looks like second hand junk now which really sucks.

That's totally unacceptable for a newly purchased, 2-month old DS4104.   :wtf:  I'd be furious.   :box:

Have you contacted Chris Armstrong at all?  He's the head honco (General Manager) at Rigol US, and I'd think he'd want to know about the QoS his techs are providing (or lack thereof).  His email is: carmstrong@rigol.com, just in case you don't already have it.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 05, 2014, 02:46:18 am
At my DSOX2000, there were no warranty void labels. They also were not on Tek DPO2000 that my friend bought a year ago.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on April 05, 2014, 05:08:28 am
Sadly I'd have to agree after a unsatisfying warranty repair experience.  Scope was less than 2 months old, they had it for repair for 1 month! They sent it back yesterday with one of the stickers on the back missing and the warranty void sticker "voided".  Adhesive is still showing on the removed stickers.  It looks like second hand junk now which really sucks.  I'm surprised they didn't replace the labels.  Thank god I had other scopes and I wasn't relying on this one.  An entire month without the primary scope probably would put us out of business!

Well, that's a pretty damning experience!  Did they at least fix the rail-to-rail noise issue, and other problems you were having?


>  It looks like second hand junk now which really sucks.

That's totally unacceptable for a newly purchased, 2-month old DS4104.   :wtf:  I'd be furious.   :box:

Have you contacted Chris Armstrong at all?  He's the head honco (General Manager) at Rigol US, and I'd think he'd want to know about the QoS his techs are providing (or lack thereof).  His email is: carmstrong@rigol.com, just in case you don't already have it.


No I haven't contacted Chris, though he was copied on one of the emails during the delayed repair.  I'll give the engineers a chance to respond and then I'll give Chris a shout.

It certainly is a bummer because I've gotten several customers switched over to buying 3 or 4 pieces of Rigol test equipment every month now and I am starting to wonder if that was a good idea.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sailor on April 05, 2014, 01:02:47 pm

I've decided that there are too many things about the Rigol MSO4000 that I don't like, so it will be going back to the distributor next week. Instead, I bit the bullet last night and bought this Agilent MSO7054B

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-MSO7054B-Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscope-4-analog-plus-16-digital-channels/121297000471?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.RVI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D21021%26meid%3D5800756591393017463%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D9336%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D331161906210 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-MSO7054B-Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscope-4-analog-plus-16-digital-channels/121297000471?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.RVI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D21021%26meid%3D5800756591393017463%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D9336%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D331161906210)

I probably can't remember all the little things that annoyed me about the Rigol, but some of the main points were:

1. The way the cursors work - measurements tied to both being on-screen at the same time; not being always-displayed in the upper screen during zoom; the way that the cursor sometimes moves slightly (relative to the waveform) during zoom-in/zoom-out operations, even though you haven't touched the multi-function knob; etc etc.
2. The way RS232 decoding works - or not, at high baud rates, and consequently what this says about their algorithm; the slow panning; the way that the decode isn't cleared from the screen when you arm for another single-shot (a bit trivial I know, but it irritates me); the way that it doesn't work in segmentation; and more...
3. The slow function of the GUI in general.
4. The lack of Mark/Search functions, which should be a no-brainer when you have such incredibly deep memory capability.
5. The sometimes erratic operation of the MF knob (probably firmware, but who knows...)

and, as I said above, a bunch of other things that I don't remember at the moment.

Many of the points are related to the work that I do, and the way that I do it. A personal thing, but that's the way it is, and I figure that I would wind up chucking the scope against a brick wall if I had to use it continually.

All of which is a pity, because I reckon the general look and feel, panel layout, and the GUI design are *really* good, but I have this gut feeling that I wouldn't be able to always trust the scope, and that I wouldn't be able to trust Rigol to correct some of the things within an appropriate time-frame. With the older (analogue) Tektronix scopes, and now their MSO4034 I have never wondered if the scope is lying to me or not, so I don't waste time looking for things that aren't there, and so on.

These comments will be going to the local rep, who I've known for 30 years or more. He will probably be disappointed, but I think it needs to be said. If others have a pet peeve about the 4000 series that bothers them, please tell me and I'll include it. If they hear the same things often enough from a broad base of users, it may filter through (case in point - when my question/criticism about measurements involving off-screen cursor(s)  was put to Rigol, the reply was instantaneous and to the point - no, it's not possible, the capability doesn't fit in with the way the cursors are implemented, and there won't be any change. I reckon they had been asked that question more than once or twice already ;)).

On the other hand, if anyone thinks that I am being unreasonable, then also tell me.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on April 05, 2014, 02:51:58 pm
You are spot on. The agilent 7000 series is awesome and I've gotten a lot of good use from them. Also not perfect for serial decode and analysis but a very nice system overall. I'd still probably use a saleae over buying the decodes on the stipend based on experience using both.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sailor on April 05, 2014, 03:51:36 pm

Now that I'm moving to the Agilent side of things ... I see mention of PC S/W such as Vector Signal Analysis,  and Matlab GUIs and/or scripts ... Has any of that made it out into the wild (cough), or is it still held fairly close?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 05, 2014, 04:28:44 pm

I've decided that there are too many things about the Rigol MSO4000 that I don't like, so it will be going back to the distributor next week. Instead, I bit the bullet last night and bought this Agilent MSO7054B...

A beautiful piece of test equipment, for those with deep enough pockets to afford one.  :)  I suspect you'll really enjoy using it.  (All I have in my pockets is lint  :-DD )

Quote
I probably can't remember all the little things that annoyed me about the Rigol, but some of the main points were:

2. The way ... decoding ... doesn't work in segmentation

That's such a ridiculous limitation, I'd almost stop right there!  And when I asked Rigol (China) about this, they claimed it worked OK decoding segmented Frames.  I'm assuming they didn't understand the question I was asking... but I was pretty explicit.  Maybe I should ask again, because this is something they shouldn't be short-changing.

Quote
4. The lack of Mark/Search functions, which should be a no-brainer when you have such incredibly deep memory capability.

Agreed!  Having huge acquisition capacity is great.  And Rigol comes with some of the deepest available, anywhere near their price ranges.  But providing no way to find specific things in it is just silly.  It's not even a hardware thing.  We're talking about post-acquisition processing, a Search and Tag capability, using the existing Trigger conditions.  Really just another subroutine, like the post-analysis it does provide (only on segments!) to find frames that deviate from a Template, or fail to fit a Mask.  Same deal, just scan the existing buffer for Trigger-selected matches, tag those spots, and let the operator jump back and forth between them.

Not exactly rocket-science, but its absence really negatively impacts the value of that deep memory.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on April 05, 2014, 06:26:32 pm
Mark,
Are you saying that you've asked Rigol directly about using the decoders on recorded frames and they said it was, or should be, working?

I certainly can't make it work. As soon as the record feature is enabled the decoder locks up completely displaying the same data on the screen even though the actual trach changes. Recording frames without the decoder turned on and THEN turning on the deocder while "browsing" the frames is also a no-go.

My contact couldn't (or atleast didn't) even say if it was supposed to work.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sailor on April 05, 2014, 06:34:44 pm
  I suspect you'll really enjoy using it.

I sure hope so. One of the things that attracted me (there were many) was the 'Sequence' trigger type. I can only go by the User Manual at the moment, but it seems that you define a set of conditions (i.e. a trigger) that starts the ball rolling, followed by another set of conditions which then must be met in order to start the acquisition. And you can define a 'Reset' set of conditions that take you back to the beginning. And those conditions are drawn from all analogue and digital channels, the external trigger input, and maybe the Line trigger and a Timeout value. If that all works the way that I hope it does, it will go a long way toward removing my concerns over the 8MB memory limit, which is less than I am used to with the Tek MSO4034.

It's just over a week since I asked the distributor to check with China about the likelihood of a Mark/Search function. I haven't heard anything.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 05, 2014, 06:38:51 pm
That's such a ridiculous limitation, I'd almost stop right there!  And when I asked Rigol (China) about this, they claimed it worked OK decoding segmented Frames.  I'm assuming they didn't understand the question I was asking... but I was pretty explicit.  Maybe I should ask again, because this is something they shouldn't be short-changing.
I am not sure this is applicatable as this test was done on a DS2000 , where decoding at 115.2Kb/s using  scope at 20ms/div and 56Mpts, and recorded 2 frames.
 I show 1st & 2nd frame,  I am not sure how one would set up triggering  to capture frames in segments?
maybe trigger on an Hex Byte that only occurs at the point of interest  :-//

Yes the DSO is slow, It took about 1.5s to display just the trace when move to the second Frame and about 6 seconds to display the decoded Hex of that 2nd Frame
I show more on the DS2000 forum
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 05, 2014, 07:36:20 pm
Mark,
Are you saying that you've asked Rigol directly about using the decoders on recorded frames and they said it was, or should be, working?

Yes.

Quote
I certainly can't make it work.

That's what I've heard from several others as well.  Which is why I contacted Rigol.

Quote
As soon as the record feature is enabled the decoder locks up completely displaying the same data on the screen even though the actual trach changes.

I'm not as concerned about that.  It may simply be too slow to keep up.

Quote
Recording frames without the decoder turned on and THEN turning on the decoder while "browsing" the frames is also a no-go.

...but this I would definitely expect to work.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 05, 2014, 07:45:01 pm
I am not sure this is applicatable as this test was done on a DS2000 , where decoding at 115.2Kb/s using  scope at 20ms/div and 56Mpts, and recorded 2 frames.
 I show 1st & 2nd frame,

Very, very interesting!  Thanks, teneyes.  That sure seems to show that it's possible.  Perhaps there's some trick to the process, that is non-obvious and others have missed?

Quote
I am not sure how one would set up triggering  to capture frames in segments?
maybe trigger on an Hex Byte that only occurs at the point of interest  :-//

I can't provide details, since I don't have one here, but in general, depending on what the protocol was, you'd set up to trigger on SOF (start of frame), or a specific field value match (address, for example).

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Yes the DSO is slow, It took about 1.5s to display just the trace when move to the second Frame and about 6 seconds to display the decoded Hex of that 2nd Frame

I don't mind the 'Slow', as much as the 'Doesn't Work At All'.  :)  But those times do seem much slower than I've normally seen reported, even for the Rigols.  Perhaps there's something else going on, but it sure shouldn't take 6 seconds for it to process 700 bytes of data from the screen (the only place it gets the data to decode a protocol), and display the string.

Quote
I show more on the DS2000 forum

I'll go look there as well. 
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 05, 2014, 07:51:58 pm
I am not sure this is applicatable as this test was done on a DS2000 , where decoding at 115.2Kb/s using  scope at 20ms/div and 56Mpts, and recorded 2 frames.
 I show 1st & 2nd frame...

Yes the DSO is slow, It took about 1.5s to display just the trace when move to the second Frame and about 6 seconds to display the decoded Hex of that 2nd Frame

OK.  I just took a closer look, and it seems like you may have captured just two very large frames?  And are zooming in in on a small slice in each, to see a reasonable number of decoded bytes on screen?  I.e., you could then scroll back and forth within each of those frames, and see a LOT more data.

If that is the case, then that explains why it's taking so long.  Each Frame you're stepping to (if you only set it for 2), is pulling 28MB of data from one buffer into another.  Then interpreting and displaying it.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 05, 2014, 08:20:10 pm
Perhaps there's something else going on, but it sure shouldn't take 6 seconds for it to process 700 bytes of data from the screen (the only place it gets the data to decode a protocol), and display the string.
I figure   3200 Bytes;
            analyzed from 32000 Bits:
            which are determined from 56,000,000 Pts
            interpolated from  56,000,000 samples,
            over the 280ms of the display,
            and processed in ZOOM mode. 
            ( in SOftware)
Note:  if Not in Zoom mode the decoding from Frame to Frame is lees than  a Second
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 05, 2014, 09:54:17 pm
Perhaps there's something else going on, but it sure shouldn't take 6 seconds for it to process 700 bytes of data from the screen (the only place it gets the data to decode a protocol), and display the string.
I figure   3200 Bytes;
            analyzes from 32000 Bits:
            which are determined from 56,000,000 Pts
            interpolated from  560,000,000 samples,
            over the 280ms of the display,
            and processed in ZOOM mode. 
            ( in SOftware)

I'm not so sure about all those numbers (I'm way past my bedtime), but if THAT's all you're talking about, then gee, why isn't it instantaneous?   :-DD

Quote
Note:  if Not in Zoom mode the decoding from Frame to Frame is lees than  a Second

Sounds good to me, and more like what I'd expect.

I think what would be helpful would be to set up a meaningful test (where each packet isn't so enormous, and you don't have to zoom in so far to see the bytes).  I don't know what you have available to you, but it looks like you have at least a UART output at 115kBaud.  Most such comms are in packet-type bursts, of from 3-30 bytes, so set up your transmitter to send various strings of about 20 bytes, with maybe 1 or 2 ms gaps between them.

Then set up the scope for RS232 Triggering, on Start bit.  And set a sample rate that will give you several samples for each 8.7 us bit-cell.  (1 MSa/s should be more than adequate for 115k serial.)  Then configure the RecordMode to grab a large number of frames, such that the duration of each will contain at least 200-bits x your samples/bit.  You might also want to set the RecordMode gap to something ~500 us.

What you should wind up capturing is a lot of records (frames, packets).  And you should then be able to step through them, and zoom in enough to comfortably see about 7 bytes at a time (as you've already demonstrated).  And then scroll through the bytes within that packet.  And step to the next/previous packet.  See how effectively the Rigol handles that.

That's the kind of real-world scenario it's likely to be used in.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on April 05, 2014, 10:57:05 pm
Here are the details on the test I did, and just re-did just to verify I wasn't goofing it up:

Packets of 6 bytes were sent at a baudrate of 38400, only the last byte in the packet changed. "Test n" where n incremented from A to Z and then started over

* Trigger set to RS232, invert, start, 38400 baud, normal sweep (of course)
* I locked the memory depth to 14kpts which is the lowest possible setting.
* I set the timebase to 200us/div in order to be able to fit my "long" 6byte packet on the screen.
* This resulted in a sample rate of 5Msps.

With 14 divisions each 200us "long" we've got 2.8ms worth of data on the screen which matches 14kpts/5Msps. In theory we should be able to get 357 waveform updates per second minus some for the screen processing etc. I connected a frequency counter to the TrigOut connector of the DS4k to measure this.

The first test is to shoot frames into the DS4k without having the decoder enabled. I decided to try with 5ms "silence" between each 6byte packet to see what happend. The frequency counter says 165 waveform updates per second which is exactly the number of packets sent per second - no issues with that what so ever.

Now, turning on the decoder. The waveform update rate is still quite OK but it's not very stable. The frequency counter is jumping between ~130 and 165Hz but the decoder on the screen is nowhere NEAR that speed - obviously.

So where is the lower limit then, with these settings. With the 250ms between packets it's almost able to decode and present each packet on the sceren. I've only seen it "skip" once in a while so I'd say I'm just on the edge there. Yes, the frequency counter reports 4 waveform updates per second - as expected. Obviously there's no need for the decoder to update the displayed data faster then you can read but really, 4 times per second IS slow IMO.

So then I hit the Record button, what happends is that the scope starts recording frames at a rate of 4 per second obviously - as expected. The decoder on the other hand completely freezes and displays the decoded data of the last packet captured before the Record button was pressed. That's not cool if you ask me.

Stopping the recording and then "browsing" thru the recorded frames with the jog wheel does NOT update the decoded data displayed on the screen. It's completely frozen with whatever data was there when the record button was pressed.

Then lets try and record frames without having the decoder enabled during recording, stopping the recording function and THEN enable the decoder. Guess what, it STILL displays that very same data from when the Record button was pressed with the decoder on the screen. And no, it does not update when browsing thru the recorded frames.

Now, if anyone can tell me what I'm doing wrong here then I'll be forever thankful because I think I've given the scope the best possible circumstances to do it's job and I don't think it does it very good at all.

EDIT: This is with Software version 00.02.01 as reported by the instrument.
EDIT2: 14kpts/56Msps corrected to 14kpts/5Msps
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 06, 2014, 10:49:46 am
Here are the details on the test I did, and just re-did just to verify I wasn't goofing it up:

Thanks for performing the tests, and the meticulous description of your process.

Quote
Packets of 6 bytes were sent at a baudrate of 38400, only the last byte in the packet changed. "Test n" where n incremented from A to Z and then started over

* Trigger set to RS232, invert, start, 38400 baud, normal sweep (of course)
* I locked the memory depth to 14kpts which is the lowest possible setting.
* I set the timebase to 200us/div in order to be able to fit my "long" 6byte packet on the screen.
* This resulted in a sample rate of 5Msps.

This is a very reasonable and realistic "light-weight" protocol test.

Quote
With 14 divisions each 200us "long" we've got 2.8ms worth of data on the screen which matches 14kpts/56Msps.

??  I think you may have meant, "14kpts/5Msps"?

Quote
Now, turning on the decoder. The waveform update rate is still quite OK but it's not very stable. The frequency counter is jumping between ~130 and 165Hz but the decoder on the screen is nowhere NEAR that speed - obviously.

Nothing really surprising there.  Your next step was very good though.

Quote
So where is the lower limit then, with these settings. With the 250ms between packets it's almost able to decode and present each packet on the sceren. I've only seen it "skip" once in a while so I'd say I'm just on the edge there. Yes, the frequency counter reports 4 waveform updates per second - as expected. Obviously there's no need for the decoder to update the displayed data faster then you can read but really, 4 times per second IS slow IMO.

I agree that it's slow.  That's 250 ms, where only the first 3 ms is needed to acquire 14k samples.  Then it has to process those 14k, to decimate down to 700 screen points.  Updating the screen buffer takes a bit longer, since it has to merge into a variable intensity buffer first.  Lastly, it takes the 700 points, and software decodes into a byte stream, then updates the display with THAT ancillary information.  Normally when folks try this, they do it with WAY too much sample data.  But you used 14k, which was just right.  And 250 ms/update seems too long to me as well.  Especially on a DS4000.  I might be more forgiving on a DS1000Z.

Quote
So then I hit the Record button, what happends is that the scope starts recording frames at a rate of 4 per second obviously - as expected. The decoder on the other hand completely freezes and displays the decoded data of the last packet captured before the Record button was pressed. That's not cool if you ask me.

I concur with your "not cool" assessment, however you already knew you were right on the threshold of what it could handle and process at 4fps, BEFORE adding the RecordMode overhead.  Freezing at that point isn't overly surprising (to me), though obviously that's not desirable.

Quote
Stopping the recording and then "browsing" thru the recorded frames with the jog wheel does NOT update the decoded data displayed on the screen. It's completely frozen with whatever data was there when the record button was pressed.

:(  Not good.  Though I might see how having both enabled simultaneously might not be "the way to do it".  Doing so certainly brought you no benefits.

Quote
Then lets try and record frames without having the decoder enabled during recording, stopping the recording function and THEN enable the decoder. Guess what, it STILL displays that very same data from when the Record button was pressed with the decoder on the screen. And no, it does not update when browsing thru the recorded frames.

OK, that's bad.   :wtf:  I would definitely expect that to work, no question.  It sounds broken to me.  Though from Teneyes report, it sounds like it DOES work on his DS2000.

Quote
Now, if anyone can tell me what I'm doing wrong here then I'll be forever thankful because I think I've given the scope the best possible circumstances to do it's job and I don't think it does it very good at all.  This is with Software version 00.02.01 as reported by the instrument.

I don't think you did anything wrong.  (Well, your last comment should have been "very well", not "very good". ;) )  Your last test should have worked properly, as far as I can see.  I'll report this to Rigol, specifically mentioning the DS4000 this time.  My previous assumption was if it worked on one, it would likely work on all.  But if it worked on a lower model, it must certainly work on the higher ones.  That's why I think I specifically inquired about the DS1000Z, back in ? February maybe?

Thanks for taking the time to fully test this out, rather than just complaining "it doesn't work".   :-+  In my opinion, this is a "big deal".  Why?  Because Rigol promotes their scopes as having advanced features like protocol decoding.  It looks good on a Feature List, but if the d@mn thing doesn't work, it's no good to anyone (other than the marketing guys).
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sailor on April 06, 2014, 01:42:42 pm
Now, if anyone can tell me what I'm doing wrong here then I'll be forever thankful ...

Ditto. After Teneyes post I thought that there must be some obscure setting, or sequence in doing things that I hadn't tried, so I re-visited it. But no, it is just plain stuck with the last-frame decode and nothing will change it. There are other weird things also, such as the decode data display occupying more of the horizontal space on the screen than the actual signal trace does. This isn't always the case, but it's a state that you can get into when adjusting the trigger delay etc. They pan left/right in unison, but the decode starts before the signal trace.

I'm pretty much fed up with this aspect of it.

Changing to something else about decodes, but not involving the RECORD side of things:

In real-world situations your captured data may well start in the middle of a character, so the decode will (may) screw up (fair enough), but if the character stream has essentially no gap between the end of a stop bit and the next start bit, and if the bit arrangement in successive characters is 'just right', the decode stream may not flag any errors, yet be displaying totally wrong information. Such a condition does not reflect any discredit on the scope, but there should be an option in the decode menu that allows the user (with a priori knowlege of the expected data) to specify (e.g. with a cursor) exactly where the decode operation should start. Implicit in setting that cursor value would be a 're-run' of the decode operation.

I think that would be a very useful capability.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on April 06, 2014, 03:05:50 pm



... but there should be an option in the decode menu that allows the user (with a priori knowlege of the expected data) to specify (e.g. with a cursor) exactly where the decode operation should start. Implicit in setting that cursor value would be a 're-run' of the decode operation.

I think that would be a very useful capability.

I think you are asking for a lot here.  I've never seen a serial decoder that does this not Saleae, not Lecroy, not Agilent.

All the hardware decoders I have used (Agilent, Tek, and now Rigol) really pretty much suck and don't have functions that you often say "well this is obvious and easy why doesn't it do this"
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sailor on April 06, 2014, 03:43:00 pm

Ahhh... maybe I should have been a bit more explicit. My thinking related to the decode of single-shot data in memory (almost all of my work is done in single-shot mode). Whether or not an instrument has hardware-decode capability, non-realtime decode of static data in memory is a snap.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on April 06, 2014, 06:42:21 pm
Hi,
Quote
??  I think you may have meant, "14kpts/5Msps"?
Yes of course, it's been corrected.

Quote
I agree that it's slow.  That's 250 ms, where only the first 3 ms is needed to acquire 14k samples.  Then it has to process those 14k, to decimate down to 700 screen points.  Updating the screen buffer takes a bit longer, since it has to merge into a variable intensity buffer first.
Correct but the lack of performance has nothing to do with the display buffer, intensity grading and what not because it's perfectly capable of doing that at 165 frames per second when the decoders are turned OFF. Obviously the screen isn't updated 165 times per second but it sure is updated faster then 4Hz.

Quote
I don't think you did anything wrong.
Thanks, I feel that it has kind of been the problem with all the discussions on the issues with the protocol decoders. Almost everyone who has said they are having issues with them have been told they must be doing it wrong.

Quote
Thanks for taking the time to fully test this out, rather than just complaining "it doesn't work...
Not a problem, and this is the same test I've done before when I was complaining "it doesn't work" and I have reported it to Rigol. I've included their response earlier in the thread. One thing that I did differently this time thru was to use the RS232 trigger while I used normal falling edge trigger last time. It doesn't seem to make any difference what so ever in this particular setup.

If you do contact Rigol again please do keep us updated!

Thanks!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 06, 2014, 06:43:45 pm
Packets of 6 bytes were sent at a baudrate of 38400, only the last byte in the packet changed. "Test n" where n incremented from A to Z and then started over
* Trigger set to RS232, invert, start, 38400 baud, normal sweep (of course)
* I locked the memory depth to 14kpts which is the lowest possible setting.
* I set the timebase to 200us/div in order to be able to fit my "long" 6byte packet on the screen.
* This resulted in a sample rate of 5Msps.
Now, if anyone can tell me what I'm doing wrong here then I'll be forever thankful because I think I've given the scope the best possible circumstances to do it's job and I don't think it does it very good at all./size]
@H.O.
While trying to recreate your error, I found the trigger seem to have a jitter , and to investigate I did a simple test and found jitter with bursts of pulses,see Pix
I think your problem is related to this quirk, bug I found on my DS2000.

Check it out on the DS2000 Blog Here  (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg420428/#msg420428)

"I decided to try with 5ms "silence" between each 6byte packet to see what happend. "
@H.O.  is it possible to try with a longer Silence period between bursts
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on April 06, 2014, 07:21:34 pm
Hi,
I'm not sure I'm following....
How do you mean the issues with the decoder not working properly is related to trigger jitter? Thru out my tests the triggering has been rock solid.

All tests with the record mode described earlier was done with 250ms silence between packets.

I'd be happy to do more tests here but I need to understand the purpose and what I'm looking for, right now I don't quite understand what you mean...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 06, 2014, 07:25:22 pm

"I decided to try with 5ms "silence" between each 6byte packet to see what happend. "

@H.O.  is it possible to try with a longer Silence period between bursts

He's already got a configuration with only 1.6 ms of databurst (60 bits), inside a 2.8 ms sample window, followed by ~250 ms dead times.  That's already pretty lightweight.

Are you suspecting he's overdriving it?   :-//

Did the jitter you encountered at specific burst delays result in your being unable to decode frames as well?  You jumped into a discussion of another issue, without saying whether or not your DS2000 worked with the same config H.O had used.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 06, 2014, 07:38:10 pm
Did the jitter you encountered at specific burst delays result in your being unable to decode frames as well?  You jumped into a discussion of another issue, without saying whether or not your DS2000 worked with the same config H.O had used.
I was testing with the original 5ms quite between 6 bytes of data ,and  all was OK at 500us ,with decoding , but at 1ms/div , all jitter happened.
I stopped decoding,
I change to less bytes
I varied the silence period and found that quirk.
I was wondering if it occurs on the DS4000 aLso
Now I will try the long decoding test with longer silence period
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 06, 2014, 07:52:44 pm
H.O, I was re-reading your description, and had another thought.  I bolded a few things that jumped out at me.

Here are the details on the test I did, and just re-did just to verify I wasn't goofing it up:

...

So then I hit the Record button, what happends is that the scope starts recording frames at a rate of 4 per second obviously - as expected. The decoder on the other hand completely freezes and displays the decoded data of the last packet captured before the Record button was pressed.

Stopping the recording and then "browsing" thru the recorded frames with the jog wheel does NOT update the decoded data displayed on the screen. It's completely frozen with whatever data was there when the record button was pressed.

Then lets try and record frames without having the decoder enabled during recording, stopping the recording function and THEN enable the decoder. Guess what, it STILL displays that very same data from when the Record button was pressed with the decoder on the screen. And no, it does not update when browsing thru the recorded frames.

I'm wondering if the first part is a real bug (locking up the Decoder with a real-time data stream), and it just stayed frozen from that point on?  I.e., if you hadn't run the first test (and confused it), and the Decoder hadn't frozen first, would your second test then have succeeded?

I'm not suggesting in any way it would [EDIT: well, yeah, I am suggesting it might :) ], but if it were me, that's something I'd give a try before giving up.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on April 06, 2014, 08:11:03 pm
Teneyes,
I don't think it's a quirk. I think what's happening in your case is that at 1ms/div you're going to capture more than a single packet for each trigger event so "the next" trigger event will happen "in the middle" of the next a packet. You should be able to use trigger hold off to stabilise it.

Mark,
I just tried it. Cold booted the scope, recorded a couple of frames and then enabled the decoder. It pops up with decoded data from I don't know where/when but it still does not update when browsing thru the frames.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 06, 2014, 08:24:21 pm
Mark,
I just tried it. Cold booted the scope, recorded a couple of frames and then enabled the decoder. It pops up with decoded data from I don't know where/when but it still does not update when browsing thru the frames.

Sigh.  I had my fingers crossed.  Glad you eliminated that possibility though.

Quote
If you do contact Rigol again please do keep us updated!

I already had started writing something up, and came up with that (bogus) hypothesis when describing the issue.  Now that's been shot down, I'll finish my missive and fire it off.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 07, 2014, 03:35:32 am
I cannot change the data in bytes so I changed the number of bytes (from 6 to 4 bytes)
I also Confirmed H.O.'s Bug report
I need 2 post
Here are the correct Frames (not recording)
Note I used Data trigger (xEF)
Note I used fine Timebase control to spread displayed bytes out
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 07, 2014, 04:06:48 am
I also Confirmed H.O.'s Bug report
in this .GIF  you can see recorded frames display the change in the Data waveforms
BUT the Decode data does NOT update
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 07, 2014, 04:14:06 am
On H.O.'s Bug report
these displays show that the DS2000 can decode data bursts, and I show in Zoom Mode

So I hypothesis that the record function in the FW does not  call the Decode function between segmented frames

I will be reporting this to Rigol NA as a DS2000 owner
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 07, 2014, 04:41:29 am
Teneyes,
I don't think it's a quirk. I think what's happening in your case is that at 1ms/div you're going to capture more than a single packet for each trigger event so "the next" trigger event will happen "in the middle" of the next a packet. You should be able to use trigger hold off to stabilise it.
Good Pointt  H.O.
WHere is the Trigger Holdoff on a RS232 Trigger, see Pics   :-//
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on April 07, 2014, 05:58:43 am
Since I've got a 4k I obviously can't say for sure regarding the 2k (I suspect the manual will tell you though). On the 4k it's in te exact same place as it always is for any trigger..... Trigger menu -> Settings.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 07, 2014, 04:50:58 pm
Since I've got a 4k I obviously can't say for sure regarding the 2k (I suspect the manual will tell you though). On the 4k it's in te exact same place as it always is for any trigger..... Trigger menu -> Settings.
Yes Edge trigger has Trigger Holdoff, (under settings)
But , Does the DS4000 have trigger Holdoff when one is using RS232 Trigger???

What do you think about this?
Hi Len,
It does not decode recorded frames. I thought this was reported and confirmed here awhile ago when first reported on one of the UltraVision models.
Hi Mark
It is not on your Bug list (post 3) and at first  I was thinking it was important. but Now as I was testing the best way to monitor a serial data stream is with a long buffer (using best Mem depth), then analyze by using the zoom feature , where the decoding does work.  and to record long frames, then zoom and scan the Data.  I guess the DSO is only a preliminary device for Serial Data debugging. I am not sure when data could be missed
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on April 07, 2014, 05:45:50 pm
Quote
But , Does the DS4000 have trigger Holdoff when one is using RS232 Trigger???
Yes it has, as you can see from the screenshot in my previous reply. I haven't tested if it actually WORKS but it's there.

I don't know why keep mixing responses from other threads but using a single capture into a deep memory buffer is not at all the same thing, or as usable IMO, as being able to use the segmentet memory. What if there's 30 seconds between packets?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 07, 2014, 06:27:33 pm
...at first  I was thinking it was important. but Now as I was testing the best way to monitor a serial data stream is with a long buffer (using best Mem depth), then analyze by using the zoom feature , where the decoding does work.  and to record long frames, then zoom and scan the Data. 

I'm afraid you've missed the whole point of Segmented acquistions (RecordMode) in the first place.  In almost all communications protocols, there are not only gaps between requests & responses, but much longer gaps of 'dead time' between those pairs.  By recording just one Frame worth of data at each trigger, you can easily extend the time you can monitor by 10x, 100x, or even 1000x.  Using the shortest frames, that means up to 200k (!) msgs could be captured.  And Rigol brags about that 200k frame capability!

Let's take 1Mbit CAN for example.  I'd need to oversample that by at least 10x, so 10MSa/s.  Even with the superdeep 140 Mpts of the DS4000, that's only 14 seconds.  Which is <10k msgs at 10% bus loading (10x/20x worse).  With lighter traffic, it's even worse yet.  But with segmented captures, 100k msgs could be captured with ExtendedIDs (and 200k for StandardIDs).  And if I were using a more selective trigger (say specific address, not grabbing every message), I could filter out a lot of "uninteresting" msgs, and extend that time coverage even further.  But not with the method you're espousing.

I can tell you if I dropped the kind of money a DS4000 costs, I would d@mn sure expect this very useful function to work.  Great in theory (and advertising marketing), but doesn't work in practice is a huge  :--   :-- .   :palm:
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 07, 2014, 06:32:44 pm
Oops, I shoulda read ahead.

...using a single capture into a deep memory buffer is not at all the same thing, or as usable IMO, as being able to use the segmented memory.

What if there's 30 seconds between packets?

Yeah!  Exactly.  What he said!  :D
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 07, 2014, 06:44:01 pm
I don't know why keep mixing responses from other threads...

I'm with H.O on this.  It's confusing.  I see a bunch of your screen snaps, but without the Play=n frame counter, we're not talking about the same thing. 

This is complicated enough, trying to evaluate one issue at a time.  For me anyway, but perhaps I'm slow.   :-//  I'm happy to see you testing and posting.  (You're the only one I'm aware of who has managed to show segmented frames actually being decoded, though on a DS2000.)  But could we focus on one thing at a time?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 08, 2014, 01:23:35 am
SOn the 4k it's in te exact same place as it always is for any trigger..... Trigger menu -> Settings.

That gives me 'Protocol Trigger Holdoff Envy'
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 08, 2014, 04:19:34 am
Please Note the decoding of recorded frames I show is available for the DS2000 only in the latest FW 00.03.00.00

The recording shown here are bursts of 70 bytes every 3 seconds

Does the DS4000 have this feature?  if Not it should be in the next FW release
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on April 08, 2014, 03:09:26 pm
Hi Teneyes,
No, the DS4k does not decode data when "playing back" recorded frames - that feature not working has kind of been the key point of the discussions over the last several days.

Thank you very much(!) for confirming that it DOES now seem to work on the DS2k after upgrading to 00.03.00 - I sincerely hope it's just a matter of time untill Rigol releases "the same" firmware for the DS4k.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 08, 2014, 03:24:19 pm
...at first  I was thinking it was important. but Now as I was testing the best way to monitor a serial data stream is with a long buffer (using best Mem depth), then analyze by using the zoom feature , where the decoding does work.  and to record long frames, then zoom and scan the Data. 
In almost all communications protocols, there are not only gaps between requests & responses, but much longer gaps of 'dead time' between those pairs.  By recording just one Frame worth of data at each trigger, you can easily extend the time you can monitor by 10x, 100x, or even 1000x.  Using the shortest frames, that means up to 200k (!) msgs could be captured.  And Rigol brags about that 200k frame capability!
Using my DS2000 (56Mpts) here is a test of capturing & decoding 508 frames X 465 byte blocks = 236,220  Bytes,
That's good for me.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 08, 2014, 07:09:46 pm
Using my DS2000 (56Mpts) here is a test of capturing & decoding 508 frames X 465 byte blocks = 236,220  Bytes,
That's good for me.

Thanks, Teneyes!  Yes, you can capture up to 65,000 frames on the DS2000 (each probably around 700B, of course).  Fewer as you increase the frame size.  And yes, that capability, coupled with post acquisition decoding, can be very useful.

Thanks for cluing us in on the DS2000/FW3.0 dependency for this functionality.  I wasn't aware that many had even bothered trying it yet (or that you were one of them), since there were some questions initially about its legitimacy.  And those that had weren't noticing any significant improvements.  Naturally, Rigol isn't about to make a list of things they fixed.  That would require admitting that a capability that should have worked from day one (and they've been claiming did work), just showed up 2(?) years later.  (Though the DS4000 folks are still waiting, even longer.  :( )
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on April 09, 2014, 12:26:06 am
I wasn't aware that many had even bothered trying it yet (or that you were one of them), since there were some questions initially about its legitimacy.  And those that had weren't noticing any significant improvements.  Naturally, Rigol isn't about to make a list of things they fixed.  That would require admitting that a capability that should have worked from day one (and they've been claiming did work), just showed up 2(?) years later.  (Though the DS4000 folks are still waiting, even longer.  :( )
I am not sure I have the latest 'Offcial' version.
I know this FW has bugs that will freeze the DSO and I am disappointed that it does NOT fix the bugs we have reported to Rigol.  I hope the DS4000 owner's get a better release.  It was by accident that it was loaded, when I tried testing the Record & Decode function. The FW is a much larger file, going from 8MB to 10MB, so it should add something. (reports all Hacked DSO's IP addy if connected to Internet,  STUXNET2) ;)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mark_O on April 09, 2014, 12:38:15 am
I am not sure I have the latest 'Offcial' version.
   :-DD

Quote
I know this FW has bugs that will freeze the DSO...
  :(

Quote
...and I am disappointed that it does fix the bugs we have reported to Rigol.

I think you meant to say, "doesn't".

Quote
The FW is a much larger file, going from 8MB to 10MB, so it should add something.

Yes.  As I mentioned somewhere else here in the Forum, the new FW adds a lot of code to support the LA functionality in the new MSO2000 models, along with SCPI support for same.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: farrell on May 11, 2014, 12:42:54 pm
I think I found another bug in the DS4014 firmware. I skimmed this thread and didn't see it listed.

When using the Math function, with an expression, the state is not saved when turning off the scope. After powering up the scope you must go back to the Math menu, reapply the expression, and reset the volts/div scale.

I just emailed Rigol about it, and recorded this clip to show them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxgHOhTyx4s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxgHOhTyx4s)

Can anyone else confirm this bug with their scope?

-Farrell
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on May 12, 2014, 03:09:24 am
To DS4000 owners:

I'm working on a new version of my Rigol Ultravision Utilities to handle all 4 channels of the DS4000 (as well as DS1000Zs). Since I don't own either DSO, I'd appreciate any owners willing to be alpha/beta testers. The link for the current alpha (as well as some explanatory info) is here (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg442444/#msg442444).
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on May 12, 2014, 03:10:17 am
To DS4000 owners:

I'm working on a new version of my Rigol Ultravision Utilities to handle all 4 channels of the DS4000 (as well as DS1000Zs). Since I don't own either DSO, I'd appreciate any owners willing to be alpha/beta testers. The link for the current alpha (as well as some explanatory info) is here (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg442444/#msg442444).

awesome will check it out on the ds4000
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on May 15, 2014, 03:34:05 am
Hi,

question concerning the HORIZONTAL knob of the DS4000 series:

when I turn it fast the timebase sometimes jumps back or foward.
When turning the knob slower there's absolute no problem.

Would be interested in your experience. Either the routine for the rotary knob is not implemented well or it seems to be
broken. Usually a gray code is used for decoding such kind of knobs.

Is there a bug in the DS4000 series?

Rgds
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on May 15, 2014, 03:44:35 am
Hi,

question concerning the HORIZONTAL knob of the DS4000 series:

when I turn it fast the timebase sometimes jumps back or foward.
When turning the knob slower there's absolute no problem.

Would be interested in your experience. Either the routine for the rotary knob is not implemented well or it seems to be
broken. Usually a gray code is used for decoding such kind of knobs.

Is there a bug in the DS4000 series?

Rgds
Gunb

It's probably just quadrature rather than gray code, but it doesn't matter, the darn thing should work :)

I'll check mine and see if it acts that way.  I bet they are not sampling the knob fast enough and it is skipping states making it look like it is going backwards.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on May 15, 2014, 03:52:16 am
I'll check mine and see if it acts that way.  I bet they are not sampling the knob fast enough and it is skipping states making it look like it is going backwards.

... that would be nice, thank you.

Rgds
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on May 15, 2014, 03:54:08 am
question concerning the HORIZONTAL knob of the DS4000 series:

when I turn it fast the timebase sometimes jumps back or foward.
When turning the knob slower there's absolute no problem.

I started having the same problem with the Horizontal scale knob on my DS2000 after about 14 or 15 months of owning it. I sent it back (to the dealer) for knob replacement while I was abroad a month ago. It's fine again.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on May 15, 2014, 06:47:42 am
I started having the same problem with the Horizontal scale knob on my DS2000 after about 14 or 15 months of owning it. I sent it back (to the dealer) for knob replacement while I was abroad a month ago. It's fine again.

OK, good to know. But annoying to send it to the service. Does anybody know the part no. of these digital potentiometer? I mean, I expect it will happen in the future again and it's not difficult to change these parts. Last year our company sent an old Agilent scope to the service with the same issue and it cost about 500,-€.

Rgds
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on May 15, 2014, 07:14:29 am
Hi,
question concerning the HORIZONTAL knob of the DS4000 series:
when I turn it fast the timebase sometimes jumps back or foward.
When turning the knob slower there's absolute no problem.
Hi
  Have You used the Key Test , see Pix below.

I had a RMA repair done on my DS2000 and received this note

----------------------------------
Hi xxxx,
We finished up repairing your scope.
I desoldered the remaining retention rings and cleaned the all of the vias.
Then, I soldered the new retention rings (Qty 4) in,

replaced the metal encoders on the keypad (a suggested upgrade),
performed a self-calibration, and then verified the unit was in cal with our new calibration verification hardware.
Regards,    Rigol Technologies USA Applications Support Team
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this suggests bad encoders before  (2013)


Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on May 15, 2014, 07:44:34 am
OK, good to know. But annoying to send it to the service. Does anybody know the part no. of these digital potentiometer? I mean, I expect it will happen in the future again and it's not difficult to change these parts. Last year our company sent an old Agilent scope to the service with the same issue and it cost about 500,-€.

Rgds
Gunb

Well, it was under warranty, so I only paid for shipping one-way. He offered to send me the part (or I could also just send him the encoder board already removed), but since I was leaving the country (and couldn't use the DSO), it wasn't worth my time to do the work myself to save € 30. I might be able to get the part number.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on May 15, 2014, 07:53:01 am
Hi
  Have You used the Key Test , see Pix below.

I had a RMA repair done on my DS2000 and received this note


Good idea. Meanwhile the keytest revealed the encoder to be the root cause for this issue.


Well, it was under warranty, so I only paid for shipping one-way. He offered to send me the part (or I could also just send him the encoder board already removed), but since I was leaving the country (and couldn't use the DSO), it wasn't worth my time to do the work myself to save € 30. I might be able to get the part number.

OK, would be interesting to get aware of the part number. Meanwhile I've searched for a few 12 step rotary encoders with a push button and I only could find a few from ALPS. These ones seem to look as the ones on the Rigol PCB in the videos.

Thanks guys for your excellent hints!

Kind regards
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 15, 2014, 09:25:54 am
I started having the same problem with the Horizontal scale knob on my DS2000 after about 14 or 15 months of owning it. I sent it back (to the dealer) for knob replacement while I was abroad a month ago. It's fine again.
How often did you use your scope? Two hours a day? Well, many Rigols might have problems with encoders. RIGOL DS1052E troubles with encoder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV3WKqZhuRQ#)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on May 15, 2014, 04:27:29 pm
How often did you use your scope? Two hours a day? Well, many Rigols might have problems with encoders. RIGOL DS1052E troubles with encoder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV3WKqZhuRQ#)

I was afraid of your really helpful reply  :palm:

What's more annoying: the encoder issue or useless comments?
Maybe you can post the part number I'm searching for instead of videos anybody knows. That would be helpful.

Amen.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on May 16, 2014, 09:33:31 am
Just be aware that Hydrawerk is an Agilent Owner and strives to put down Rigol equipment,
I'm not sure why he nitpicks so much. Just like a chicken pecking the the red spot.

Oh yes, I know. You're right.

Meanwhile contacted Rigol support. Problem is going to be solved. Got a reply 5 minutes after the mail was sent.
That's what I like. Fast & kind, no reason to complain.

Kind regards
Gunb

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 18, 2014, 02:42:03 am
Just be aware that Hydrawerk is an Agilent Owner and strives to put down Rigol equipment,
I'm not sure why he nitpicks so much. Just like a chicken pecking the the red spot.
Well, sorry, I am not gonna say that Agilent is perfect.
I have never seen a problem with rotary encoders on Agilent scopes at my university but some of 10+ years old 54600 series scopes have problems with rubber buttons under the screen. Even the Infinii Vision 6000 series (here MSO6034A) might suffer from this problem. Agilent MSO6034A scope mini-teardown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lYbD9_eIko#ws)
And I did see many troubles with encoders at many Agilent 33220A function generators. The units did not look very old... That's not good.
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/agilent-signal-generators/?action=dlattach;attach=67722;image (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/agilent-signal-generators/?action=dlattach;attach=67722;image)
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/agilent-signal-generators/msg333060/#msg333060 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/agilent-signal-generators/msg333060/#msg333060)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on May 18, 2014, 03:38:28 am
How often did you use your scope? Two hours a day? Well, many Rigols might have problems with encoders.

I can't speak to Gunb's usage, but I've used my DS2000 for a massive amount of time - much more than 2 hours a day over many months - because I was writing complex software for it and it had to be up and running during the writing. And the Horizontal scale knob got used most of all - because many of the routines written were related to Delayed Sweep (which required much H. scale adjustment).

And lumping together other products from the same manufacturer that might have similar problems is irrelevant: it's highly unlikely the same encoders are used in the UltraVision line as was used in the older model in your posted video - and everyone knows ANY manufacturer (Agilent, Tek, Rigol, etc) can have hardware problems with one model - and none at all with other models they make.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 18, 2014, 04:41:50 am
Some of the Rigols encoders are made of metal, I like it. At Agilent all of them are made of plastic. But I could not find any closer info on the manufacturer, or if they are mechanical or optical.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on May 18, 2014, 06:41:22 am
While at the Dayton Hamvention today I took a few minutes to stop by the Rigol booth and talk with the sales engineers.  I mentioned my displease of the 4000 series firmware citing a few of the examples listed here, got the are you on the latest version and we're constantly improving bullshit.

They had some yet to be released SAs on display, but given the recent junk they've been releasing I didn't even bother to look.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on May 18, 2014, 05:34:22 pm
Some of the Rigols encoders are made of metal, I like it. At Agilent all of them are made of plastic. But I could not find any closer info on the manufacturer, or if they are mechanical or optical.

The horizontal knob is a metal one. When I will have replaced it with the spare part I will open the broken one to see how it works. Assume it's a mechanical one.


Rgds
Gunb

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: JHERCULEES1 on June 06, 2014, 03:40:04 pm
Hi,
Seeing that the "other" Rigol thread is mostly on the DS2000 and now the 1000 series I thought I'd post here instead.
Yesterday I applied MrKrabs edition of the 02.01.00.03 DS4000 firmware and it worked like a charm, all options stayed intact, thanks MrKrabs!

In another thread someone mentioned the decoders not operating on recorded frames, something that sounded a bit strange to me - say it isn't so I said to myself. Unfortunately that does seem to be the case (I only tested the RS232 decoder). I thought perhaps the frames had to be recorded with the decoder active but that doesn't work either - as soon as you press the record button the decoder stops updating. "Browsing" thru the recorded frames doesn't do anything with the decoded data on the screen, it just stays the way it was at the moment you pressed Record. Using the wavefor analysis function in order to "preview" the frames at the bottom of the screen the preview to the left of the current of frame somtimes distors badly and this appears to only happen when the decoder is on the screen.

Since the decoders appears to be software driven I really don't see the reason for them not being able to operate on recorded frames.

Don't know if it can be called a bug as I don't think I've seen it stated anywhere that it should work, still kind of a shame though.



I am trying to apply this mkrabs update to my 4014 but the scope doesnt even seem to acknowledge there is an update on the usb stick with this file , how in the world did you install it on the scope?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: JHERCULEES1 on June 06, 2014, 03:43:16 pm
Hello everyone.

   Thank  to  Cybernet and MrKrabs.

My DS4024 model to full!



any info on how to apply this firmware? i put MRKRABS firmware on the memory stick but the scope does not acknowledge there is an fw upgrade to install how did you accomplish it?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on June 06, 2014, 03:59:46 pm
did you rename the file to the correct file name for a ds4000 upgrade?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: JHERCULEES1 on June 06, 2014, 04:58:02 pm
ahh finnally got it! had to rename it like you said , but even then my usb refused to see it , i tried several time to do a bootup load of fw and got it finnally , its working i used the trigger out of the scope which has a fast rise time and looked at it its reading almost 1ns on 50 ohm input setting so nice
attached a screenshot of rise time of trigger out connected to ch 1  at timebase 1ns thanks guys!! this is great
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: JHERCULEES1 on June 06, 2014, 05:07:50 pm
also i noticed a bug in this fw , i lost the abilty to set volts/div to 500uv   not a huge deal but still it says parameters overrange and minimum is 1mv/div on my 4014 now
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on June 07, 2014, 02:40:20 am
also i noticed a bug in this fw , i lost the abilty to set volts/div to 500uv   not a huge deal but still it says parameters overrange and minimum is 1mv/div on my 4014 now

Why should there be a bug?  Max. sensitivity of the DS4000 series is 1mV/DIV. It's not a DS2000 with 500µV/DIV.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: JHERCULEES1 on June 07, 2014, 05:44:59 pm
also i noticed a bug in this fw , i lost the abilty to set volts/div to 500uv   not a huge deal but still it says parameters overrange and minimum is 1mv/div on my 4014 now

Why should there be a bug?  Max. sensitivity of the DS4000 series is 1mV/DIV. It's not a DS2000 with 500µV/DIV.

OH sorry i didnt know that i probably should know that ..

im kinda surprised its 3 times the price i thought it did have 500uv , but I guess the Fw is working perfectly then , wonder why rigol took away that feature on a more expensive scope , interesting

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on June 07, 2014, 08:49:48 pm
im kinda surprised its 3 times the price i thought it did have 500uv , but I guess the Fw is working perfectly then , wonder why rigol took away that feature on a more expensive scope , interesting

It's not true 500uV/div - it's just 1mV/div mathematically enlarged. So it's not that much of a feature.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rf-loop on June 07, 2014, 10:17:24 pm
@Altemir

I have one question about page 1. table and calculations.  I know there may be different opinions about this but I will ask exactly Altamir opinion.

(this table: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/?action=dlattach;attach=75877;image (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/?action=dlattach;attach=75877;image)   )


There is
Samplerate 4G
2ns/div
"sample size" 700  (700 samples = 1 waveform lenght ?)
Blind time 0.981

waveform update rate / s (wfms/s) meaning is afaik qcquired and displayed waveform / s.

But what is blind time (invisible time amount from total time)

4GSa/s  is  8 sample points in one dvision with this 2ns/div.
Rigol display is 14 divs. It means that visible waveform lenght is 112 datapoints.

With this setting you have measured 106790 wfms/s
1 waveform in every ~9360ns
Blind time (for user eye)  is 9248ns and visible time is 112ns.
If total time is 1 then visible time is 0.01197


Question: what you think which one is visible (not blind) time. 112 sampled points time or 700 sampled (but mainly not visible) points time.

Which one is better in practice for user: Real time displayed part from total time or acquired part from total time (if they are not equal)

In this case it is not big deal 112 in 700 but some scopes may have much more. Example oscilloscope where is 20k minimum memory, 1GSa/s sampolerate max and example 2ns/div timescale and if 14 divisions wide it have 28 sample points visible and 19972 sample points invisible (but acquired). How it is wise to calculate blind time. Do it need think visible part or whole captured part.
If I use oscilloscope for some rare glitches I will mostly watch screen or leave it with infinite persistence. (also it do not work mostly for this part what is outside of display memory)

I vote displayed sample size.

Ref: http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/1er02/1ER02_1e.pdf (http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/1er02/1ER02_1e.pdf)

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: marmad on June 07, 2014, 11:58:20 pm
Question: what you think which one is visible (not blind) time. 112 sampled points time or 700 sampled (but mainly not visible) points time.
His sample sizes in his charts are incorrect at the lower time bases. When the Rigol displays '700*', it means it's sampling <= 700, which means at 2ns/div, it's sampling 112 points.

Quote
I vote displayed sample size.
I would tend to agree with you - except in the case of segments, when you can zoom out to replay the full sample size.

Quote
Ref: http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/1er02/1ER02_1e.pdf (http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/1er02/1ER02_1e.pdf)
Although Rohde-Schwarz calculates blind-time based on the full sample size - Agilent is the company that calculates based on displayed sample size.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rf-loop on June 08, 2014, 12:34:04 am
His sample sizes in his charts are incorrect at the lower time bases. When the Rigol displays '700*', it means it's sampling <= 700, which means at 2ns/div, it's sampling 112 points.

Ok, good.  Without this information I was wondering. 


I would tend to agree with you - except in the case of segments, when you can zoom out to replay the full sample size.

Yes, segmented memory acquired is different case because it is not realtime watching.
It can run zoomed in/out vertically and horizontally (depending scope) and analyze segment by segment or segment groups stepping for more easy finding exeptions.


Although Rohde-Schwarz calculates blind-time based on the full sample size - Agilent is the company that calculates based on displayed sample size.

Yes, this was in my mind. And link to R&S because all know Agilent but R&S is not so widely known all aound of world (pity).
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: samertje on June 28, 2014, 05:06:34 am
Hey eveyone,

I'm trying to upgrade my DS4014.
I upgraded the firmware and got 00.02.01.00.03

Ultra sigma doesn't give me a large HEX. I' really lost, I'm jut a noob learning electronics.
Please help

Sam
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: MrKrabs on June 30, 2014, 09:20:59 am
Hey eveyone,

I'm trying to upgrade my DS4014.
I upgraded the firmware and got 00.02.01.00.03

Ultra sigma doesn't give me a large HEX. I' really lost, I'm jut a noob learning electronics.
Please help

Sam

Just install my patched firmware. It's at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/: (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/:)

http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.MrKrabs.GEL.zip (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.MrKrabs.GEL.zip)

Here's my original message (buried in that huge thread ;) )

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on June 30, 2014, 10:38:54 am
Hey eveyone,

I'm trying to upgrade my DS4014.
I upgraded the firmware and got 00.02.01.00.03

Ultra sigma doesn't give me a large HEX. I' really lost, I'm jut a noob learning electronics.
Please help

Sam

Just install my patched firmware. It's at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/: (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/:)

http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.MrKrabs.GEL.zip (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.MrKrabs.GEL.zip)

Here's my original message (buried in that huge thread ;) )

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754)

your firmware is awesome Krabs!!!!  been using it for a few months.  hugs and kisses dude!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: houly on August 17, 2014, 10:34:27 pm
Hello all,
I have question about the firmware of MrKrabs.

I would want to buy a MSO4014 and would want to know if the forwmare would be compatible with this scope ...or not ?
and what does it offer exactly ? full bandwidth ? full decoding options ?

What kind of tools I need to upgrade the firmware ?

sorry for newbie question...

I hope you could help me

regards
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on August 18, 2014, 12:22:40 am
Yes it is compatible. If you read the forums the answers to all your questions exist. I don't remember all the details off the top of my head.  Krabs is for bandwidth, keygens are for other features.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: don on August 18, 2014, 06:51:02 am
Hi,

Does anyone know if ds4000 can decode when in history mode (segmented memory).  I know it was an issue at least a few months ago, not sure if resolved.   Looking for I2C and spi.

Thanks
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on August 18, 2014, 05:41:06 pm
Hi Don,
As far as I know, no. It still (FW ver 00.02.01) can not decode recorded frames. They fixed that issue on the DS2000 series but not on the DS4000. I've tried, over the last 6 months or so to get a response on whether or not the DS4000 development is "dead" but have been given the silent treatment.

If you're considering getting a DS4000 series scope and you really do "need" the decoders then ask the right questions before buying - then they might give you an answer.

They're charging serious money for the option and they just don't work the way you expect them too. With that said I haven't found it actually written anywhere that it should work on recorded frames....

I'm currently running Mr.Krabs special version 00.02.01.00.03
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: don on August 18, 2014, 09:47:34 pm
Thanks for info, I'll send Rigol an email and see what they say.  Rigol's websites for DS4000 has an app note called "Advantage of Record Function" which does say record + decode is a special feature of DS2000 and DS4000.  But scope is a couple years old now?  You'd think it would be working by now.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on August 18, 2014, 10:36:46 pm
Ha, yeah, there it actually does say it's supposed to work:
Quote
When the memory is filled up or the acquisition is stopped it is possible to change to the Playback or the Analysis Mode. Within this you can scroll to all messages frame by frame and see the decoded data.

But, in my experience, it simply does not work. Yes, you can scroll thru the messages frame by frame but the decoded data isn't updated. You probably won't notice it if all the frames captured contains the same data (not a good test), but if the actual content of the captured frames changes you'll see that the waveform is updated but the decoded data is not.

I've said id before and I'll say it again. I'm old enough by now to realise that I might be doing it wrong. In this case though, no one has been able to show where I've went wrong and others have been able to recreate the issue. You can read about my test starting at this post (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg419890/#msg419890) and then continuing for a couple of posts.

If you do get a response from Rigol, please keep us updated!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on August 23, 2014, 03:07:25 am
FYI: I've finally (!) been able to get a response from Rigol regarding the decoding of recorded frames on the DS4k. They have confirmed that it is a bug (no surprise) and they are saying that it will be fixed in the next revision of the firmware. I wasn't told when in time that firmware is about to be released and/or what else they might have done to it.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on August 23, 2014, 03:21:17 am
FYI: I've finally (!) been able to get a response from Rigol regarding the decoding of recorded frames on the DS4k. They have confirmed that it is a bug (no surprise) and they are saying that it will be fixed in the next revision of the firmware. I wasn't told when in time that firmware is about to be released and/or what else they might have done to it.

Good to know, thanks for sharing.  They must be completely consumed with circumventing hackers rather than fixing bugs these days... Just kidding :)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on August 23, 2014, 03:44:51 am
Possibly, but lets hope not :)
One can't help thinking about how many actual decoder licenses for the DS4k have been sold? I mean, list price for a DS4014 is ~$2700 (Batronix (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS4014.html)), $600 on top of that (+22%) for the RS232 decoding alone ($1700 for the combo, and that doesn't include FlexRay which is another $1400) and then performing the way they are is ridiculous IMO.

I mean, *I* don't really have the right to complain since I didn't actually buy any decoder licenses but since my scope came WITHOUT the time limited trial licenses installed (yep, that's true) I had to enable them just to see what it was  8). And let me tell you that had I actually payed that kind of money I'd be calling and emailing my supplier each and every day untill they got me a fix or gave me my money back.

I would suspect any customer actualy paying that kind of money would too but the fact that the scope is ~3 years old (heck, I've had mine for over two) and these bugs are STILL there tells me no-one is actually paying for it.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on August 23, 2014, 03:49:25 am
Possibly, but lets hope not :)
One can't help thinking about how many actual decoder licenses for the DS4k have been sold? I mean, list price for a DS4014 is ~$2700 (Batronix (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS4014.html)), $600 on top of that (+22%) for the RS232 decoding alone ($1700 for the combo, and that doesn't include FlexRay which is another $1400) and then performing the way they are is ridiculous IMO.

I mean, *I* don't really have the right to complain since I didn't actually buy any decoder licenses but since my scope came WITHOUT the time limited trial licenses installed (yep, that's true) I had to enable them just to see what it was  8). And let me tell you that had I actually payed that kind of money I'd be calling and emailing my supplier each and every day untill they got me a fix or gave me my money back.

I would suspect any customer actualy paying that kind of money would too but the fact that the scope is ~3 years old (heck, I've had mine for over two) and these bugs are STILL there tells me no-one is actually paying for it.

I am in 100% agreement.  Price point on those decoders is HIGH and they sure as heck better work right in all normal situations if I pay money for them.  Agilent got VERY competitive on the addon prices for their newer scopes.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: seronday on October 03, 2014, 10:58:40 pm
DS4000 series Bandwidth (model type) Option Codes.

I have posted some information on the option codes for setting the DS4000 series bandwidth here.
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/3600/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/3600/)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: veryevil on October 06, 2014, 04:19:45 am
We have been told that a fix will be in the next firmware and it is due at the end of October. Told them if its not then we will be sending it back
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on October 06, 2014, 04:46:07 am
seronday,
Thank you very much for that! Excellent!

veryevil,
Thank you for the update, I was going to email my contact asking for a progress report but I'll sit tight then. Hopefully we'll see something in about a month then. If you hear anything else, please keep us in the loop, thank you!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on October 06, 2014, 12:04:43 pm
I'm going to give a ds4014 a try.  Is there a calibration board for less in the US from anywhere?  The price at batronix plus dhl shipping adds that up a bit.  I may even lay out a small pcb to order through itead.  If I give that a try, I'd probably start with the source signal in the center and have it come out in 5 even directions...

Ok, how about this, I put this together so far.  Fits inside of 5cm x 5cm for itead <9.90.

(http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/rigol_calibration_pcb.png)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on October 06, 2014, 04:10:50 pm
I'm going to give a ds4014 a try.  Is there a calibration board for less in the US from anywhere?  The price at batronix plus dhl shipping adds that up a bit.  I may even lay out a small pcb to order through itead.  If I give that a try, I'd probably start with the source signal in the center and have it come out in 5 even directions...

Ok, how about this, I put this together so far.  Fits inside of 5cm x 5cm for itead <9.90.


did ya balance yer impedances to 50 ohms?  I'm not sure this is any better than a bunch of BNC cables and tees.

wonder what the batronix board looks like and if it's carefully laid out or not.

itead rules by the way... but they have slowed down a LOT since updating their gerber upload process to an automated system instead of email.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on October 06, 2014, 11:07:20 pm
did ya balance yer impedances to 50 ohms?  I'm not sure this is any better than a bunch of BNC cables and tees.

I wondered about this last night after throwing it together.  I made the track lengths the same for all 5.  Track widths are 20mil.  Is there something I need to do to balance them?  If so, what?

Edit, after looking at a couple of impedance trace calculators, if I use a 1.2mm pcb, 35um copper, substrate dielectric of 4.35, one calculator gives 87.2 mils wide track and the other gives 92 mils, so I guess I should use a 90 mil track.  The one at batronix looks like it uses some pretty wide track and perhaps this is why.

EDIT 2 - I only have 4 places (between the ground spokes) I can put the 90 mil wide trace from the center connector.  Can I put a ring around it, connect 4 traces from the source connector, and then 5 even traces from the ring to the router ones?  Any downside to doing that?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on October 07, 2014, 12:27:23 am
did ya balance yer impedances to 50 ohms?  I'm not sure this is any better than a bunch of BNC cables and tees.

I wondered about this last night after throwing it together.  I made the track lengths the same for all 5.  Track widths are 20mil.  Is there something I need to do to balance them?  If so, what?

Edit, after looking at a couple of impedance trace calculators, if I use a 1.2mm pcb, 35um copper, substrate dielectric of 4.35, one calculator gives 87.2 mils wide track and the other gives 92 mils, so I guess I should use a 90 mil track.  The one at batronix looks like it uses some pretty wide track and perhaps this is why.

EDIT 2 - I only have 4 places (between the ground spokes) I can put the 90 mil wide trace from the center connector.  Can I put a ring around it, connect 4 traces from the source connector, and then 5 even traces from the ring to the router ones?  Any downside to doing that?

I unfortunately am not an RF guy, just enough to be dangerous, BUT, you can adjust your board thickness to change your trace width (for 50 ohms).  I don't know if you used a ground plane or not, but you should be I believe.  If you go thinner board, that calculated trace width should reduce.

I don't think trace length matters, I don't think that the scope uses any time of flight for it's calculations.  Again I could be wrong, but I think it's mostly amplitude and offset calibration.  If ya have a good pic of the Batronix one it might be instructive for identifying important features.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on October 07, 2014, 12:34:50 am
I'm not an RF guy either.

I thinned the pcb to 1.2mm and that lowered the trace width a bit to 90mils.  I've got a ground pour for ground on bottom/top although it is pretty cut up on the top.

Any problem with the ring method I did here, how about this:

(http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/rigol_calibration_pcb2.png)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on October 07, 2014, 12:42:46 am
looking at the Batronix board they are definitely doing line length compensation, and using thick traces.

I'm not positive whether the ring idea is a good or bad idea :)

The reality is that if you aren't doing this quite right, you will probably never know the difference on the scope.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on October 07, 2014, 04:25:22 am
Does anyone who does know RF have a comment on the ring technique I am using to bring the center/source BNC jack to the outer 5?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TooOldForThis on October 07, 2014, 12:17:33 pm
You were probably better off with the first pattern - fewer paths to echo around while on the circuit board.  I assume the point of the calibration is to drive an edge out of the rear trigger out port and measure the difference in time between when that edge first arrives at the 5 front panel inputs. (and then ignore the many, many trailing echos.)  Unless you spend a mint on 5 phase-matched cables for the front connections, the cable variances will be the biggest error source.  Without knowing the specifics of the calibration, its hard to say how fussy the cable assembly needs to be.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Co6aka on October 08, 2014, 12:09:24 pm
...have it come out in 5 even directions...

"Even" doesn't matter if your cables are of different lengths.

Cut five identical RG-174-size teflon coax cables (with one BNC-male already on each) then combine them all into a single BNC-male: Parallel the cut ends, solder the braids together, solder the centers together and then solder to the sixth BNC-male pin.

Too beat to do a DaveCAD image tonight.  :=\
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Howardlong on October 08, 2014, 06:09:58 pm
I'm an RF guy, and the Rigol Calibration kit board looks like it has fifty ohm microstrip.

I don't know how the cal board is used, but I assume that all channels are set to 50 ohms to use it.

However, the combined impedance will be 10 ohms (five 50 ohms in parallel: see, RF ain't all black magic!) which won't match the central feed which I assume will go off to a signal generator presumeably with a 50 ohm characteristic impedance. Whether this is a problem or not I don't know, but it seems strange to go to the effort of making 50 ohm microstrip and then mismatching the feed point so grossly. But depending on the use case, if all channels are equally badly treated perhaps it doesn't matter.

It is possible there's some impedance matching such as a wideband transformer on the board to deal with the mismatch, but I couldn't see any evidence of this. You could use a minimum loss pad to provide a broadband match too (basically a pi or T made out of resistors, they're inherently broadband, but more lossy than a transformer).

A couple of other comments. Firstly, depending on use case, it may be necessary to terminate any unused channels with fifty ohm terminators or you'll get erroneous results. Secondly, the closeness of those BNCs on your board might make for a bit of fun when trying to fit the cables, you might want to do a fit check first, I did a similar thing with SMA connectors on a board a few years ago, you don't make that mistake twice!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on October 08, 2014, 11:22:21 pm
I don't know how the cal board is used, but I assume that all channels are set to 50 ohms to use it.

It is unclear from the calibration document/instructions, but I wonder if the "50" led will light up during calibration.

Firstly, depending on use case, it may be necessary to terminate any unused channels with fifty ohm terminators or you'll get erroneous results.

I think in one of their calibration or performance tests it mentions connecting the 4 channels, but leaving the 5th one disconnected (the one that is usually connected to the external trigger).

Perhaps they designed for the impedance difference in the calibration itself, or it just isn't important for what they are trying to calibrate.

I made up an easy "joiner" pcb last night that eliminates the connectors and goes right to soldering RG58 to a pcb:

(http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/rigol_calibration_pcb4.png)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: iDevice on October 09, 2014, 09:10:58 am
All BNCs have to be connected otherwise the calibration won't start, if I remember.
I only do it about one or twice a year when DC offsets begin to bother me, so I forgot, but I think I tested first with 3 tees and four cables and it didn't work as there was a detection of signal presence on the ext sync input.
But I'm not sure as since then I use the original test jig.
The calibration process is using the fast edge output.
The calibration fixture is nothing fancy, just a PCB with soldered chassis female BNCs, the only special care is about track length matching.
So you can achieve the same thing with four tees and adjusted 5th cable length to compensate for the branch from the 2nd output from the first tee but it's cheaper to buy the Rigol thing than trying to make it yourself anyway, so why bother...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on October 09, 2014, 10:57:58 am
I'm an RF guy, and the Rigol Calibration kit board looks like it has fifty ohm microstrip.

I don't know how the cal board is used, but I assume that all channels are set to 50 ohms to use it.

However, the combined impedance will be 10 ohms (five 50 ohms in parallel: see, RF ain't all black magic!) which won't match the central feed which I assume will go off to a signal generator presumeably with a 50 ohm characteristic impedance. Whether this is a problem or not I don't know, but it seems strange to go to the effort of making 50 ohm microstrip and then mismatching the feed point so grossly. But depending on the use case, if all channels are equally badly treated perhaps it doesn't matter.

It is possible there's some impedance matching such as a wideband transformer on the board to deal with the mismatch, but I couldn't see any evidence of this. You could use a minimum loss pad to provide a broadband match too (basically a pi or T made out of resistors, they're inherently broadband, but more lossy than a transformer).

A couple of other comments. Firstly, depending on use case, it may be necessary to terminate any unused channels with fifty ohm terminators or you'll get erroneous results. Secondly, the closeness of those BNCs on your board might make for a bit of fun when trying to fit the cables, you might want to do a fit check first, I did a similar thing with SMA connectors on a board a few years ago, you don't make that mistake twice!

to give a little more background, this is for self calibration so it connects to the calibration port on the scope itself.  Also the calibration won't work if you don't have all channels hooked up.  I believe it is designed to be usable with BNC tees and a bunch of cables so somehow the impedance match is cared for or not needed.

Like I mentioned before. I suspect that this is all offset and gain calibration and likely low bandwidth.  I suppose someone could add another tee and measure what is being send out of the calibration port to confirm.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on October 12, 2014, 12:49:19 pm
Rigol's firmware page is now showing FW 2.02 for the 4000.

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm)

Funny that I would just happen on a newer revision, after hounding their support for bug fixes with no response.    :palm:
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on October 13, 2014, 02:22:35 pm
BAH!

I requested the update and they send me 02.01!!!!  WTF
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: salvix on October 13, 2014, 02:56:31 pm
The email said 02.01, but if you look at the first few bytes of the file, you'll see it's actually 00.02.02.01.01.

00.02.02.01.01 has 9570200 bytes

00.02.01.00.03 has 9091982 bytes

sha1sum:

ab2b226cf3b5fbd42cd72054e6ba773d35973512  DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.GEL
5a76dc73098e1a2ddb4492d17f8a26397b09e1dd  DS4000Update.00.02.02.01.01.GEL
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: electronic_eel on October 13, 2014, 05:25:02 pm
Is the decoding in segmented memory bug fixed with 2.02?

Does 2.02 still accept Riglol codes or did they add a protection against that? Like the first step they did on the DSA815, the bootloader being the second.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on October 13, 2014, 07:08:47 pm
You'd probably have to check the change log!

Now if only we could find one of those...

Hope they fixed the hacking issue. Stealing is wrong!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on October 13, 2014, 07:19:18 pm
The email said 02.01, but if you look at the first few bytes of the file, you'll see it's actually 00.02.02.01.01.

00.02.02.01.01 has 9570200 bytes

00.02.01.00.03 has 9091982 bytes

sha1sum:

ab2b226cf3b5fbd42cd72054e6ba773d35973512  DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.GEL
5a76dc73098e1a2ddb4492d17f8a26397b09e1dd  DS4000Update.00.02.02.01.01.GEL

Well thanks for checking that. It would not have occurred to me to see if they actually sent a newer version than what they stated.

Can't wait for someone to check this against known bugs!


EDIT:
Confirmed that installed firmware is 02.02.SP1.

Also, licenses stick, 500MHz option disappears from options screen but also persisted (model still says 4054 in system info).

now we just need to figure out what might be fixed!

EDIT:

the 500MHz does in fact stay functional.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: salvix on October 14, 2014, 04:16:26 am
Interesting. Could you try downgrading to the previous firmware to see if it's still possible?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on October 14, 2014, 04:17:22 am
Sure, why not, not like I have any real work to do right?

:)

EDIT:

downgrade works fine if done from the pre-boot bootloader (turn on and mash help button).  It does not allow downgrade from within the scope firmware.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jboard146 on October 14, 2014, 05:46:31 am
Could someone post the DS4000Update.00.02.02.01.01.GEL (The supposed fixed) file to dropbox or somehting?

I'll give it a try and see if it fixes the decoding. I really want the decoding to work.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: salvix on October 14, 2014, 06:52:56 am
There you go: http://wikisend.com/download/445784/DS4000Update.00.02.02.01.01.GEL (http://wikisend.com/download/445784/DS4000Update.00.02.02.01.01.GEL)

After you download it, make sure the sha1sum is 5a76dc73098e1a2ddb4492d17f8a26397b09e1dd.

And thanks Gallymimus for checking the downgrade works! (wait, you use your scope for *work*? geez!  ;D )
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on October 15, 2014, 07:44:14 am
Hi,
I just tested the new 02.02.01.01 firmware and I'm pleased to see the main issues I've had with the protocol decoders are, as far as I can see during this fairly short test, fixed.

* If you record a bunch of frames/waveforms you can now use the decoder on the recorded frames while playing them back - at last, thank you Rigol!

* There's no distorted "preview" of the waveform when in analyze mode.

* If you enable the waveform record feature while a decoder is already turned on the scope will now hide/blank the decoded data on the screen while recording is active. This is (a lot) better than before where the decoder simply locked up displaying the last decoded. I would obviously prefer to have it show on the screen while recording as well but it's my understanding that it's compromise due to processing power. It would then be nice with an option where you could opt to have it on screen with the drawback of reduced waveform record rate. After all, there are a lot of scenarios where there's plenty of time between frames anyway. Oh well....

* Unfortunately it (the decoder) still locks up as soon as you bring out the Record mode menu on the screen. The waveform updates but the decoded data does not. Once you select an item in the menu the decoder either comes back to Life (ie you select OFF) or it hides/blanks.

* There seems to something strange going on when trying to use the Open record mode with a decoder turned on. I can't seem to make it operate properly. If I turn off the decoder then Open mode seems to work properly (and the decoder can be re-enabled again when playing back the frames/waveforms).
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on October 16, 2014, 02:12:35 am
Is it just me or does the multi-function knob responsiveness also seem better with 2.0.2?  I had gotten to the point that most of the time I simply used the menu button presses to scroll down, so I wasn't using the knob as much, but seems better.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on October 16, 2014, 04:12:30 am
You know, I actually kind of felt that too but then decided it was probably just wishfull thinking and imagination. Perhaps not after all....
Have you found anything else fixed or added? You didn't happen to get the release notes did you? (I didn't, just got the .gel file).
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on October 16, 2014, 04:19:15 am
No release notes, I was told it's still in the works, but is coming.

I've not noticed anything else fixed, but been busy with other stuff and only played a bit so far.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on October 16, 2014, 11:52:30 am
Hi,

Can someone explain to me the reason fro the vertical stringing when I view this in dots mode.  The intensity grading seems to be a part of this, obviously stopping the waveform and viewing it shows the sample dots perfect.  It also looks good running when using vectors too.

Is it noise in the triggering from the signal I'm looking at?

(http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/ds4000dots.png)

Thanks,

Alan
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TooOldForThis on October 16, 2014, 12:56:58 pm
I can confirm your results.    I get the same artifacts at high sweep rates when in dots mode. (This is with SW rev 02.02.SP1)
I get slightly different results each time I stop the acquisition.  I find the 2nd screen shot interesting.  It appears that some percentage of the time the sample data is is displayed with a phase delay.  I don't see this effect at slower sweep rates.   Everything is fine in vector mode at any speed.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on October 18, 2014, 01:50:38 am
Does anyone notice some waviness with the VGA output on their DS4K?  At first glance you don't see it, but there is a repeating pattern in the signal that is visible if you look.  I tired a couple displays and a couple of cables and got the same thing.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: commongrounder on October 18, 2014, 05:14:07 am
alank2:
Yes, I have the same noise pattern on the VGA out of my scope as well.  I imagine there must be some crosstalk into the analog portion of the video out.  I guess they didn't have the budget to go ultra high performance on the video processing.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on October 18, 2014, 05:27:29 am
Thanks commongrounder, I just wanted to make sure it was normal.  Not a huge deal, just a little annoying.  It looks really funny to see it on a large display.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: electronic_eel on November 03, 2014, 08:28:01 am
I have 00.02.02 installed on an MSO4000 and I'm getting strange results with a measure on the math channel. The measurement is a simple power measurement multiplying voltage and amps of a 40 W bulb on an 100 R shunt. The math curve looks nice as it should be.

But I don't understand what is going on with the average measurement - it is showing a negative value.

I have also included a screenshot with all measurements on the math channel on. Although the math curve is always above the zero-mark, the measure function thinks it swings from -43 W to +31W. To me these measure results look totally bogus.

It seems like it depends on the scale of the math trace: when I use a lower load so that I can use the 500U scaling on the math trace everything is ok. Once I change the scale to 1KU the measure results go negative.

Could anybody try to reproduce this?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: electronic_eel on November 03, 2014, 09:30:46 am
I've done some more investigation:

It seems like only the measure function is affected, the regular cursors show sane values.

I have restricted the measurement area from full screen to measurement cursors and inspected parts of the math waveform. See attached screenshots. The measurement function seems to think the whole math waveform is negative.

And once I switch the math scale down to 500U everything is fine again. Maybe some kind of overflow?

If someone wonders: I turned down the voltage a bit for these measurements, my 100 Ohms shunt was getting a little warm.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on November 06, 2014, 07:44:53 am
Hi,

Well, my calibration pcb came in from itead finally.  I do know that you could kludge the cables together without it, but it made the job easier.

(http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/rigolbnc1.jpg)
(http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/rigolbnc2.jpg)

Before calibration:

(http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/rigolcalbefore.png)

After calibration:

(http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/rigolcalafter.png)

I actually ran the self cal twice to see if I could get the CH1 to move up like the others, but it ended up the same both times.

If anyone wants one of these pcb's, I've got 8 extras.  I'll drop one in an envelope in the US and pay for a stamp.  You just need to buy 3 BNC cables from Jameco and you can easily build a 5-in-1 calibration fixture.

111473   CABLE ASSEMBLY,RG174/U,3 FOOT ,BNC TO BNC,50 OHM   5.49

I skipped the 33 ohm resistors the RF guys recommended because the actual Rigol fixture does not have any resistors in it...

Thanks,

Alan
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Omikron on April 08, 2015, 12:49:56 pm
Hey All!

In case anyone is curious, after several weeks of calls and badgering a number of people, TEquipment has finally listed the calibration kit on their website: http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/Calibration-Kit/General-Accessories/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/Calibration-Kit/General-Accessories/)

Yay!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on April 14, 2015, 07:51:14 pm
I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but there is new (to me at least) firmware out for the DS/MSO4000: 00.02.02.03.05

It displays as 00.02.02.SP3 in System Info


Cheers,
Roger
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Break42 on April 15, 2015, 08:08:06 pm
Hi hendorog,
do you know the changes in the newest 00.02.02.03.05 version? Are there release notes included?
Could you please add here the firmware  changes / bug fixies / improvements?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on April 15, 2015, 09:20:28 pm
Hi,
Nothing was included apart from the binary itself, but I have asked for them.

I noticed a couple of things which I hadn't seen before (quite possible that they were already there and I missed them)
* Digital filter option in the Math menu
* 1553B decoding option
* 1553B trigger option

Also I did a test with a signal gen - note its not super clean so harmonics might be a factor - but I was able to display a trace up to 1160 MHz - and the frequency counter worked...  :wtf: Seems pretty amazing! This is a DS4014/500


(http://)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on April 15, 2015, 10:12:18 pm
Where did you see this 1553b decoding option?  Do you have a screen shot of it?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on April 15, 2015, 10:23:11 pm
I've added them to the above post.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on April 16, 2015, 01:07:12 am
I've added them to the above post.

Cheers.

Could you please attach the firmware release, too?


Rgds
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on April 16, 2015, 01:15:29 am
Could you please add here the firmware  changes / bug fixies / improvements?

Hi,
Nothing was included apart from the binary itself, but I have asked for them.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on April 16, 2015, 05:13:48 am

I just completed the form requesting the firmware and got it back within a couple of hours.

But here's a link to dropbox
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jur2qdshdw4dsyz/DS4000Update.00.02.02.03.05.GEL?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jur2qdshdw4dsyz/DS4000Update.00.02.02.03.05.GEL?dl=0)

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on April 16, 2015, 03:58:47 pm
Here is the link from Rigol - which is still working for me:

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/s-0592-1501/Bct/l-3f49/l-3f49:bfa/ct2_0/1?sid=QeaAQw9Wk (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/s-0592-1501/Bct/l-3f49/l-3f49:bfa/ct2_0/1?sid=QeaAQw9Wk)

Thank you, Sir! ;-)

Rgds
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Omikron on April 30, 2015, 04:42:15 am
Hey All!

As I previously posted, even though I had experimented with alank2's cal PCB already, I pressed TEquipment into carrying the official Rigol kit finally and after many weeks of waiting, it finally arrived.  Why it arrived in such an ABSURDLY large box, is beyond me.  In fact, as the photos will show, nearly every bit of packaging involved in shipping this thing is more ridiculous than the last.

Screwball packaging aside, it seems to be very well built for being what it is.  PCB appears to have a large ground plane on one side with all of the signal traces on the back.  Cables appear to be of good quality as well.  Some of the soldering on the BNC connectors on the board were...less than ideal.  Some of the connections seemed to have too much solder on them, and I spotted one or two cold joints, along with some flux residue left on the board around the connectors.

All in all, I figure if you have the cash to buy the scope, the $40 for the official cal kit is worth it, although it begs the question why they can't just include it with the higher end scopes.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on April 30, 2015, 04:52:11 am
Hi,

Have you tried it yet?  Let me know if it works better than my pcb.  $40 isn't a bad deal for it.  When I called Rigol they wanted $120 or something!

BTW, all of you 4K users, if anyone wants a spare set of probes, I usually use my own probes, so I have 4 brand new RP3500A's.  They normally retail for $220 each, but I'll sell them for $130 each.

Thanks,

Alan
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Omikron on April 30, 2015, 04:55:20 am
Hi,

Have you tried it yet?  Let me know if it works better than my pcb.  $40 isn't a bad deal for it.  When I called Rigol they wanted $120 or something!

BTW, all of you 4K users, if anyone wants a spare set of probes, I usually use my own probes, so I have 4 brand new RP3500A's.  They normally retail for $220 each, but I'll sell them for $130 each.

Thanks,

Alan

Hey Alan! Waiting for the scope to warm up to try it now. :-)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: commongrounder on April 30, 2015, 06:34:18 am
The Rigol calibration cable/board kit looks interesting.  I wonder how it might be used on a two channel DS4000 series scope.  Would the two unused open connectors cause reflections that might screw up the scope's cal routine?  I assume you can't just terminate the unused jacks with 50 ohms, since we don't know exactly what the scope is doing (do we?) with input termination during the routine.  I've been using BNC tees with decent 50 ohm cables to do mine so far.  Maybe that is good enough.

The extreme over-packaging is amazing.  It's clear that the Rigol box was some sort of generic packaging, and TEquipment had no idea how it was packed and erred on the careful side.  At least most of it is recycle-able or reuse-able.   My worst case was when I received a backordered 1/2 watt resistor in five layers of packaging. The outermost box was 12 x 12 x 12 inches  :palm:
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Omikron on April 30, 2015, 09:02:23 am
Hi,

Have you tried it yet?  Let me know if it works better than my pcb.  $40 isn't a bad deal for it.  When I called Rigol they wanted $120 or something!

BTW, all of you 4K users, if anyone wants a spare set of probes, I usually use my own probes, so I have 4 brand new RP3500A's.  They normally retail for $220 each, but I'll sell them for $130 each.

Thanks,

Alan

Hey Alan! Waiting for the scope to warm up to try it now. :-)

The verdict is in! No observable difference, although I have to admit that I did have some difficulty with the PCB and ended up just building a cable that looks identical to the one pictured in the Rigol calibration guide. :-)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on April 30, 2015, 09:31:56 am
For $40 I would have just ordered their fixture, that isn't too bad a price, but like you I agree they should provide it with the scope.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on May 21, 2015, 08:52:52 am
do you know the changes in the newest 00.02.02.03.05 version? Are there release notes included?
Could you please add here the firmware  changes / bug fixies / improvements?

Rigol just sent release notes - see attached

Cheers,
Roger
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Trev4G on May 25, 2015, 08:16:01 pm
As current probes are very expensive for the amount of use I would put one to I have built my own. This presents two problems:
1) How do I power the probe?
2) How do I tell the scope about the probe (other than manually configure)?

The 7 contact probe pinboards under the BNC's on my MSO4014 look like they may contain the answer to both these problems. Is there a spec for these connections ? Has anybody tried using them?

At present there appears to be a +/- 5V supply but I don't know the current rating. The centre pin is used by the RP3500A probes to signal that is a x10. That looks a fairly simple signal so I could probably work it out. As for the rest I have no idea.

Can't help feeling someone must have been here before.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: thn788 on May 26, 2015, 06:35:26 pm
Anybody had a look at the release notes posted by hendorog above and noticed change #7 for version 00.02.02.03.05: "Supporting the upgrading of bandwidth by license" ? ;-)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on May 26, 2015, 07:53:41 pm
Yes, but so what? ;-)
The option codes, to be plugged into the keygen, for unlocking the bandwidth was published on the forum quite some time ago now.

Edit: See this post (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg523679/#msg523679).
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: thn788 on May 26, 2015, 09:44:09 pm
Yes, I know, using the keygen it has indeed been possible to upgrade the bandwidth for quite some time; not just for the 4000-series (and before this was supported for the 4000-series special patched FW was available to upgrade the bandwidth).

But there have always been recurring comparisons, discussions and doubts in several threads here in the forum (and elsewhere) whether or not the hardware of the different bandwidth models really was indeed identical, all individual devices capable and tested for full-bandwidth operation, etc., because Rigol never offered bandwidth-upgrades via option-keys themselves. Although I haven't seen any official Rigol bandwidth upgrade-options for sale anywhere, so far, why should they document this possibility in the release notes, now, if they didn't plan to sell such option keys? Or to put this thought one step further: Why would they plan to sell such options, if they had any doubts their hardware was indeed fully capable of these upgrades?

With this change-note Rigol confirms that at least for the 4000-series the different bandwidth models are indeed identical.



Edit: Apparently Rigol has also updated the user guide accordingly and does indeed list official ordering-codes for bandwidth upgrades on page 18-2, now:
http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/MSO4000&DS4000_UserGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/MSO4000&DS4000_UserGuide_EN.pdf)

They list only bandwidth upgrade options for 200+ MHz models to 350/500 MHz, though.

Whether or not the 100 MHz models are (artificially/politically) unsupported for bandwidth upgrades or whether there are indeed some hardware differences or quality regressions in (at least some) individual devices preventing full bandwidth capabilities, probably is  still open for further discussions and doubts... Or whether they might have actually modified the new firmware to refuse (new) bandwidth upgrade keys on 100 MHz models... ;-)

Probably no 401x-owners out there who dare uninstalling their bandwidth-options, updating the firmware and trying to re-install the bandwidth options, are there? ;-) Are there already any reports from new 401x-owners, whose scopes already shipped with the new firmware? Do the bandwidth-keys still work?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on May 27, 2015, 02:41:36 am
Quote
But there have always been recurring comparisons, discussions and doubts in several threads here in the forum (and elsewhere) whether or not the hardware of the different bandwidth models really was indeed identical, all individual devices capable and tested for full-bandwidth operation, etc., because Rigol never offered bandwidth-upgrades via option-keys themselves.
Well, untill we get to compare an upgraded 100MHz DS4k scope to a "real" 500MHz DS4k scope there's no way to say for sure. All I can personally say is that while feeding a 100MHz, 100mV peak to peak signal into my DS4014 it showed as 85mV pre update and 98mV post update. I'm willing to bet that there's NO difference between a "real" 500MHz model and an updated 100MHz unit.

Quote
Although I haven't seen any official Rigol bandwidth upgrade-options for sale anywhere, so far, why should they document this possibility in the release notes, now, if they didn't plan to sell such option keys?
TE Equipment is selling the bandwidth options. Though, just as the manual says, only for 200MHz and 350MHz models.

Quote
Probably no 401x-owners out there who dare uninstalling their bandwidth-options, updating the firmware and trying to re-install the bandwidth options, are there? ;-) Are there already any reports from new 401x-owners, whose scopes already shipped with the new firmware? Do the bandwidth-keys still work?
We'll have to see if someone dares to update. I'm currently on 02.02.01.01 and see no need to update at the moment so I'll just wait.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: thn788 on May 27, 2015, 06:46:01 am
If you look at this post from hendorog (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg652695/#msg652695 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg652695/#msg652695)) it seems that he did already update his previously BW-unlocked scope successfully:

While we may certainly doubt that his DS4014 suddenly has turned into a 1 GHz scope after the firmware update, it has most probably not fallen back to 100 MHz bandwidth during the update.

So I guess updating an already unlocked scope to the new firmware doesn't invalidate the installed options, but I'm wondering why Rigol mentions an enhancement to the new firmware in the release notes to support upgrading the bandwidth via license-key. As demonstrated here lots of times, this was already possible in previous firmware versions, so why mention this as change in the release notes instead of just selling such option-keys?

This makes me wonder if the bandwidth keys can still be installed in the new firmware running on a "virgin" 100 MHz DS/MSO 401x?!

Most of the time I'm also willing to bet that all the different bandwidth models of Rigol's scopes use identical hardware, but on the other hand looking at the low-end DS1000Z-series: why has there been a shortage of DS1054Z models for so long, while the DS1074Z and DS1104Z models where still available from all shops? They could easily have just downgraded the bandwidth and put a different sticker on the front to meet the customer demand for more DS1054Z models?!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on May 27, 2015, 07:12:19 am
The bandwidth hack for the DS4000 has some history:
* Originally a custom MrKrabs firmware needed to be installed.
* Later this senonday post was able to achieve it with keys http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg523679/#msg523679 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg523679/#msg523679)

I've done both of those in the past. However the keys approach means that the firmware can be updated without affecting anything, and I have done this at least twice now.

I suspect that the Rigol release notes don't accurately reflect when the licence key bandwidth feature was added.
* Originally it did not work, and hence the custom MrKrabs firmware was required.
* Then at some later point serenoday discovered it works - therefore I think they was on a newer firmware than the original testers - a firmware which already had the bandwidth feature at the time.

He mentions he has a DS4014/500, which, I suppose, means a 100 MHz DS4014 unlocked to 500 MHz.
Correct.

While we may certainly doubt that his DS4014 suddenly has turned into a 1 GHz scope after the firmware update, it has most probably not fallen back to 100 MHz bandwidth during the update.
Correct, it was just an observation I thought was interesting. The signal was much attenuated and some tweaking of levels was required, but the freq counter displayed correctly and the trace was visible which was a surprise.
IIRC 500MHz was within 3dB no problem.

This makes me wonder if the bandwidth keys can still be installed in the new firmware running on a "virgin" 100 MHz DS/MSO 401x?!
I expect it still works, but that is based on my theory that Rigol implemented the license key feature a while ago and just added it to the release notes now.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: thn788 on May 27, 2015, 07:29:22 am
I noticed McKrabs custom BW-upgrade firmware in the past but never tried it myself. When the senonday post published the option keys for BW-upgrades I assumed these keys just hadn't been discovered before. So these key don't work in older firmware?

You might have a good point about the "accuracy" of the release notes, hendorog: in your post you list the new digital filter and the 1553B decoder/trigger, but unless I just missed them, none of these are mentioned in the release notes. While the digital filter is described in the new, updated user guide, the 1553B features seem not to be mentioned.

Maybe the release notes and manuals just match the real firmware features accidentally every once in a while... :-D

(Don't get me wrong: I really like the Rigol scopes, PSUs and DMMs I have used, so far. Really good "bang-per-buck", but especially the release notes unfortunately still leave many wishes open...)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on May 27, 2015, 08:22:26 am
Yep - I'd say anyone who has had to produce accurate release notes/change list from a large dev team and/or over long time periods would understand how hard it can be. Its not a problem for my type of use of the scope anyway.

Maybe the release notes and manuals just match the real firmware features accidentally every once in a while... :-D

Haha :)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on July 30, 2015, 10:19:22 pm
DS/MSO4000: 00.02.02.04.03 appears to be available. 

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on July 31, 2015, 07:48:18 am
DS/MSO4000: 00.02.02.04.03 appears to be available. 



Interesting, quick update so might be a fix for the last update.

Not sure if anyone has see this too but the previous update introduced a bug in the SPI trigger UI - it uses i2c terminology. Perhaps that is what this fix is for as it's obvious and probably an easy fix.

On a related note, is there any interest in an updated bug list? I'm not sure what is a current issue and what has been fixed. There have been several updates since this thread began.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 01, 2015, 03:19:01 am
Did anyone try out the latest firmware?

Are most reported bugs fixed in the mean time?

What about the slow performance? Did they manage to improve the performance in the latest firmware through optimizations in the code?

I want to know what the current status is, and if current owners will now again recommend to buy a Rigol DS4000 or MSO4000 with the recent improvements made available in the latest firmware.

Or is it still better to go for another brand in this price range to have better software stability?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on August 01, 2015, 04:02:27 am
You STILL haven't decided on what scope to buy or are you shopping for another? Which one did you get last time? Do you know what you're looking for in a scope these days? Did you get the big government funding or are you buying with your own money?

As for the latest DS/MSO4k firmware, I haven't tried it yet, will see when I get around to installing it. In the meantime, if you could tell me three bugs you feel will prevent you from being able to use the scope for your needs I promise to check if they are fixed (if I have the equiment to reproduce them) once I do get the firmware installed, I have the DS4, not MSO.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: commongrounder on August 01, 2015, 05:08:00 am
I just now downloaded the firmware for my DS4000, but have not installed it yet.  In the mean time, for other owners edification, here is the change log for 4.03.  Quite a list of fixes and enhancements. :)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TooOldForThis on August 01, 2015, 10:29:46 am
I haven't been able to download the newest DS4000 firmware file.  I've requested it with the official form once a day since the new version was released, but they keep sending me a link to the previous version.  The release notes contained in their response does cover the new version.
Has anyone actually gotten 02.02.04.03?   (I'll trade you for 4 brand new copies of 02.02.03.05)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on August 01, 2015, 03:30:36 pm
Its just the zip file named incorrectly. Unzip it and the directory inside is named correctly for the new version.

Edit: Here is a link if you still need it:
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/r8m1rjnhcv0ktus/DS4000Update.00.02.02.04.05.GEL?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/r8m1rjnhcv0ktus/DS4000Update.00.02.02.04.05.GEL?dl=0)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 01, 2015, 10:01:35 pm
You STILL haven't decided on what scope to buy or are you shopping for another? Which one did you get last time? Do you know what you're looking for in a scope these days? Did you get the big government funding or are you buying with your own money?

I managed to do the job with an analog scope (Tektronix 2225) and loaned a Rigol DS1052E at the university.

As the funding has been postponed, I have decided to go with a Rigol DS1054Z.
But I want to follow up the progress on the DS4000 firmware, in case it becomes relevant in the future for a new project.

One thing is sure however: I will not go for an MSO version, until they do support decoding on the full memory buffer, instead of only decoding what is displayed on the screen. At least the event table should cover the whole memory, and not just what is displayed on the screen.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on August 01, 2015, 11:42:04 pm
Yeah, that's probably not going to happen. Considering the speed at which it's capable of decoding and displaying the data with the current implementation (about 10 "decoder updates" per second in my experience) it would take it close to 5 hours to decode the full 140Mpts of memory (that's a single decoder doing RS232 on the DS4k, no experience at all with the MSO)....

But what's the point? Lets say you're doing RS232 at 115200 baud and you want 10 samples per bit, you'd be able to do a continous capture of over 2 minutes. I don't think a scope is the tool for that sort of thing. Of course there are faster stuff than RS232 at 115200 baud but you get the point.

With that said you do realise that if you do a 140Mpts capture you can pan/zoom thru it and the scope will decode what's on the screen at any given time? That's not even close to perfect either since it makes mistakes when when the startbit of a byte (if we're talking RS232) falls off the side of the screen.

If the data to be captured consists of packets (and not one continous stream) of data the "right way" to capture it is to set the scope up so it's able to capture one packet with the smallest possible memory consumption and then use segmented memory to capture the packets one by one.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on August 02, 2015, 01:50:08 am
With that said you do realise that if you do a 140Mpts capture you can pan/zoom thru it and the scope will decode what's on the screen at any given time?

Just to note, the above was broken until the 02.02.03.05 firmware update.  (actually I only read it was fixed, haven't actually tried it myself.)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on August 02, 2015, 06:08:33 am
Just updated.  For those with hacked scopes, it does change the model number back to original, but note it adds the "Bandwidth 500M" option.  All other options kept and appear normal.



Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on August 02, 2015, 10:08:55 am
Quote
Just updated.  For those with hacked scopes, it does change the model number back to original, but note it adds the "Bandwidth 500M" option.  All other options kept and appear normal.

FWIW  The model number not changing was in the release notes.

Some other things I've noticed:

Does your Decode2 work? I saw there was a change a release or two ago which split the options into two banks, so I got a license code for the second set of options and that worked for me.

There is another option called 1553B Decoder which can be enabled as well.

Recording a set of waveforms and then changing the timebase to 'zoom' in and out will sometimes cause the waveform to disappear from the screen. Changing the timebase one more stop either way and it usually appears again. Maybe an old bug but I just noticed it.



Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on August 03, 2015, 01:43:15 am
FWIW  The model number not changing was in the release notes.

Yeah, just a warning, not to freak out when it changes back.  Before the upgrade mine showed MSO4054, then changed back to the orig MSO4024.

Does your Decode2 work? I saw there was a change a release or two ago which split the options into two banks, so I got a license code for the second set of options and that worked for me.

Yup, decode 2 works.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on August 03, 2015, 04:28:17 am
I wonder if the bandwidth upgrade still works on the DS4014.  I recall the tequipment upgrade flyer mentioned that the DS4024/DS4034 were upgradable, but did not mention the DS4014.  dr. diesel does it allow you to downgrade (you may or may not want to test it, I understand if you don't).
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on August 03, 2015, 05:10:31 am
dr. diesel does it allow you to downgrade (you may or may not want to test it, I understand if you don't).

Yeah, sorry, maybe a new buyer will give it a shot,  I'm too :scared:
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: synvox on August 28, 2015, 10:27:04 pm
Apparently the BW-unlock works also with the 4014. I have a MSO4014 and had the custom MrKrabs firmware before. Yersterday i upgraded to the newest official Rigol Firmware (00.02.02.04.03) and installed the FAB9 code (500 MHz BW and all decoding otions) afterwards. The options menu now shows the Official BW 500 option and of course all the decoding options as installed.
I didn't test the actual bandwidth with a suitable wavegen yet, but the lowpass filter can be set up to 200 MHz and the horizontal control goes up to 1 ns/div. So it seems that it has worked.

Best regards
Neni
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on August 30, 2015, 06:38:17 am
Updated my DS4014.  What is with the size of the counter now?  It is huge...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Rostislav on September 06, 2015, 11:37:42 am
Hi all!

I find a new bug in the help system of my a device!

In order:
1. I downloaded firmware from the site beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com. Firmware sent me to the site rigoltech.com on my e-mail. The official software the official site! Ok!
2. I upgraded firmware in my a device MSO4014 to version 00.02.02.04.03. Ok!
3. I press a key "Help", then a key "F1" (left menu) and see this (please, look image)...

I'm depressed and I can not eat and sleep! :-\  |O Help me! ;D

My friends, please, look in your devices the help system.

Very thanks!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Rostislav on September 06, 2015, 12:33:24 pm
Updated my DS4014.  What is with the size of the counter now?  It is huge...

yes! x2! but this is questionable size! very big! ;D
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: cubitus on September 06, 2015, 06:59:45 pm
Hello,

I do not have this bug ...

my device MSO4014 to version 00.02.02.04.03
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hs3 on September 06, 2015, 07:25:14 pm
Hi all!

I find a new bug in the help system of my a device!


3. I press a key "Help", then a key "F1" (left menu) and see this (please, look image)...

Part of flash not programmed properly? Is it just for that one image or others in the help too? Have you tried doing the firmware update again?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Rostislav on September 06, 2015, 09:41:27 pm
Hello,

I do not have this bug ...

Hello, cubitus!

My Rigol work correct, if I selected left the menu a "HORIZONTAL". No problem. Please, see image.

If I select left the menu a "VERTICAL", then a help system do crash.  :-BROKE

Maybe my a flash drive is bad? Earlier, at my a flash drive claims were not. :-//

I was upset, very upset. I can't be sure that my Rigol work correctly otherwise. :( :( :(

Very thanks, my friend!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on September 06, 2015, 09:55:38 pm
Hi,
I was just about to write saying I can't see it on my DS4k but when you said to select the vertical measurment menu I tried that too and then the graphic in the help menu is corrupted. I wouldn't say that the help system crashes, I can still select items and display the text for it - it's only the graphic as far as I can see. I've never used the help before, don't know if it's been like that before or if it's am issue introduced with the latest firmware.

I don't really like the new look of counter display either, it was better like it was. I hope they'll revert that back.

But, as I said in the SA thread, Rigol isn't monitoring these forums, we need to report the issues to them.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Rostislav on September 06, 2015, 10:12:09 pm
Hi all!
I find a new bug in the help system of my a device!
3. I press a key "Help", then a key "F1" (left menu) and see this (please, look image)...
Part of flash not programmed properly? Is it just for that one image or others in the help too? Have you tried doing the firmware update again?

Hello, hs3!

1.
Quote
Part of flash not programmed properly?
I too have this idea. But this is strange situation. Update my MSO4014 completed correctly, without errors.

2.
Quote
Is it just for that one image or others in the help too?
What pictures should i see more?

3.
Quote
Have you tried doing the firmware update again?
Yes, I did the update again!
But it could not, apparently, to influence the situation. Both a firmware files be equivalent (official and another site).

Thanks for the help, hs3!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Rostislav on September 06, 2015, 10:23:47 pm
Hi,

But, as I said in the SA thread, Rigol isn't monitoring these forums, we need to report the issues to them.

Hi, H.O!

Very thanks!

I just wanted writing email in RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES. Now the going to write.

p.s. Yes, H.O, they counter with "gone too far". :)

Regards,
Rostislav
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on September 06, 2015, 10:32:59 pm
I can confirm the bug.  You can't just scroll to it.  You have to open the measure menu, press help, then press max.  Mine does the same thing.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hs3 on September 06, 2015, 10:35:01 pm

2.
Quote
Is it just for that one image or others in the help too?
What pictures should i see more?

I was just wondering in general if the other graphics in the help items had similar corruption or only that one place.

But with others experiencing similar corruption this sounds like something for Rigol to fix.

What comes to mind are possibly corrupted graphics embedded in the firmware update file or some code bug. Or then corrupted firmware update image on the server but I would have expected there to be checksums to detect corrupt update file.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Rostislav on September 06, 2015, 10:59:38 pm

2.
Quote
Is it just for that one image or others in the help too?
What pictures should i see more?

I was just wondering in general if the other graphics in the help items had similar corruption or only that one place.

But with others experiencing similar corruption this sounds like something for Rigol to fix.

What comes to mind are possibly corrupted graphics embedded in the firmware update file or some code bug. Or then corrupted firmware update image on the server but I would have expected there to be checksums to detect corrupt update file.

I see a picture of the damaged keys "F1-F6". If press the key "F7" ("Vavg" parameter), the picture is not all.

Yes, for some strange reason, the firmware file is not accompanided by a CRC. This is strange!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: cubitus on September 07, 2015, 01:18:37 am
I have the same bug in vertical menu  :-BROKE
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mandragora on September 13, 2015, 03:42:49 am
Hello guys, does anyone tested how fast (or slow) dumping data (CSV) from scope to a USB stick is on DS4000?

Some time ago I was making some measurements with DS1054Z and I had to save them to CSV file for further analysis. I was measuring 4 signals, 2s/div, 10k memory. Saving last something about 20 sec. Actual sampling rate was to small so I increased memory to 100k. Now it took about 2 minutes to save this file :/ It's really long considering i had to perform this operation 60 times. I don't want to know how long would it take to save 1M points (per channel of course) file...

In the end I used old Tek scope, saving 1M file took something like 10s.

Can anyone perform some saving speed tests on DS4000? Is it so slow as DS1000Z? Is there any solution for saving fast large files?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Karel on September 13, 2015, 06:46:22 am
Can anyone perform some saving speed tests on DS4000? Is it so slow as DS1000Z? Is there any solution for saving fast large files?

The DS1000Z is slow when using an USB-stick. Via LAN or USB (to pc) connection it's much faster:

1.2MB   5 seconds

24MB  93 seconds


Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Mandragora on September 13, 2015, 08:54:15 pm
Thanks Karel for test, I will use PC to save those files now. Anyway DS1000Z is still 10x slower than a TEK :-\
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gallymimus on October 17, 2015, 10:50:13 am
Hi all!

I find a new bug in the help system of my a device!

In order:
1. I downloaded firmware from the site beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com. Firmware sent me to the site rigoltech.com on my e-mail. The official software the official site! Ok!
2. I upgraded firmware in my a device MSO4014 to version 00.02.02.04.03. Ok!
3. I press a key "Help", then a key "F1" (left menu) and see this (please, look image)...

I'm depressed and I can not eat and sleep! :-\  |O Help me! ;D

My friends, please, look in your devices the help system.

Very thanks!

unfortunately this might be an indication of a defective scope.  I had one that was doing this more and more regularly until I had to send it back (I didn't get it on any particular screen it would just pop up with video corruption on occasion)

-edit-

nevermind it looks like this happens to more people.  At least it isn't a hardware problem like I had.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on October 18, 2015, 03:01:26 am
Are they ever going to fix this ridiculous feature? "0.00000000ps" looks looks so funny. A $6,490 oscilloscope should not have this.  :-- :--
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on October 18, 2015, 03:53:07 am
I _greatly_ dislike the new preschooler sized way too large counter - it takes up way too much screen space.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: JHERCULEES1 on October 22, 2015, 06:33:58 am
i want to use the keygenerator for my ds4014  but where can i find the private key  number?       I need that to use the key gen  No IDEA where to get that for the 4000 series

any help appreciated  thanks

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on October 22, 2015, 07:08:45 am
I haven't done this for a while so apologies for any errors.
Go here: http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)
Enter your serial # and the four digit code and click generate.

There is a pdf and a text file here which you can use to work out the four digit code:
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/)

Then the key is the code you enter into the scope.


Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on October 22, 2015, 07:29:51 am
I _greatly_ dislike the new preschooler sized way too large counter - it takes up way too much screen space.

+1 on that there alank2. I always have it turned off now as it consumes so much space on the screen
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: JHERCULEES1 on October 22, 2015, 08:00:58 am
actually you do need a private key to be entered , I just tried it , it wont generate the unlock key without 3 pieces of information

1. your sn

2. options

3. private key

http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/)


so where do we get this private key?

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on October 22, 2015, 08:27:27 am
Its in the riglol code apparently:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg423400/#msg423400 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg423400/#msg423400)

"else if (!strncmp(serial, "DS4", 3)) priv_key = DS2000_private_key;"

"DS4" = DS4000 (has the same private key as DS2000)"

So as long as your serial begins with "DS4", and as long as the key hasn't changed then it should work.
Edit: You can test it using this fake serial: DS423412341234
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: JHERCULEES1 on October 22, 2015, 08:45:59 am
so your saying use the private key for the 2000 series? which is this ..8EEBD4D04C3771

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on October 22, 2015, 09:15:02 am
Yes - but you can leave the private key field blank if:

* Your serial # has "DS4" as the first 3 characters.

The fact you are having problems suggests that your serial number doesn't begin with DS4 - so just check that you have it correct.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: JHERCULEES1 on October 22, 2015, 09:28:01 am
my sn is correct starting with ds4 as it should ,  i just didnt know it was going to auto fill the private key number   and that the private key was the same as for ds2000 series 

I will leave the private key field blank and just fill in the sn field .
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: nbritton on October 23, 2015, 01:08:20 pm
What is the latest hardware version of the MSO4014, the one I received today from tequipment.net is hardware version 1.3 and firmware version 00.02.02.SP1. That seems old.

The screen on mine flickers, has anyone else encountered this?

What option code do you use to get ALL the options, like the Power Analysis and 1553B Decoder? I don't think you get the PA feature with the FAB9 code.

Have we figured out what the MA option is yet? Is that short for Modulation Analysis?

I found this PDF that talks about the Ultra Power Analysis software... any idea where to get the software?

Where can I get a current copy of the NI VISA and IVI driver software so that I can interface this with my computer?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on October 24, 2015, 12:47:12 pm
What is the latest hardware version of the MSO4014, the one I received today from tequipment.net is hardware version 1.3 and firmware version 00.02.02.SP1. That seems old.

The screen on mine flickers, has anyone else encountered this?

Funny I noticed mine doing that the other day for the first time, but its not now.
Try turning off the decoder if you have left it on - I just noticed that makes the trace flicker.

What option code do you use to get ALL the options, like the Power Analysis and 1553B Decoder? I don't think you get the PA feature with the FAB9 code.

Try BAH9
From memory you also need CAH9 to enable the same options on the 2nd decoder. In theory according to the text file DAH9 should do both banks at the same time.

Have we figured out what the MA option is yet? Is that short for Modulation Analysis?

I found this PDF that talks about the Ultra Power Analysis software... any idea where to get the software?

Where can I get a current copy of the NI VISA and IVI driver software so that I can interface this with my computer?

I don't know what the MA option is for.

The Power Analysis software used to be downloadable at the Rigol website but required a license key to use it.
Looks like its still there: http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS4000/software/ (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS4000/software/)

I think you can download that NI stuff from the NI website. I've done that at some stage, but never used it.
I think there are probably better ways to talk to it - e.g. using python libraries but I haven't done much in the way of interfacing with the scope.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: nbritton on October 24, 2015, 02:07:09 pm
What option code do you use to get ALL the options, like the Power Analysis and 1553B Decoder? I don't think you get the PA feature with the FAB9 code.

Try BAH9
From memory you also need CAH9 to enable the same options on the 2nd decoder. In theory according to the text file DAH9 should do both banks at the same time.

Wouldn't it be RA39? That enables both unknown features, bandwidth, and decoders. and 500MHz, MA, and Power Analysis. and all known decoders.

Has anyone noticed that i, 0, and 1 are missing from that option code chart? Also xAx9 doesn't appear to unlock the 1553B decoder.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on October 24, 2015, 02:41:53 pm
What option code do you use to get ALL the options, like the Power Analysis and 1553B Decoder? I don't think you get the PA feature with the FAB9 code.

Try BAH9
From memory you also need CAH9 to enable the same options on the 2nd decoder. In theory according to the text file DAH9 should do both banks at the same time.

Wouldn't it be RA39? That enables both unknown features, bandwidth, and decoders. and 500MHz, MA, and Power Analysis. and all known decoders.

Has anyone noticed that i, 0, and 1 are missing from that option code chart? Also xAx9 doesn't appear to unlock the 1553B decoder.

Ah yes I was having trouble opening the PDF so was just reading the text file which isn't so straightforward.
I found a copy of the pdf here and now it makes more sense.

Yes I agree RA39 looks like it turns everything on.

Regarding the 1553B decoder, I'm not sure if anyone else has managed to enable that or if its just me. If just me then it was probably blind luck more than anything, and all I can say is its possible somehow :)

However I remember turning on the 'license reapplication bit' at some stage - which would make the second letter 'S' instead of 'A'. So maybe give that a try if you have tried everything else.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: nbritton on October 24, 2015, 05:42:19 pm
What option code do you use to get ALL the options, like the Power Analysis and 1553B Decoder? I don't think you get the PA feature with the FAB9 code.

Try BAH9
From memory you also need CAH9 to enable the same options on the 2nd decoder. In theory according to the text file DAH9 should do both banks at the same time.

Wouldn't it be RA39? That enables both unknown features, bandwidth, and decoders. and 500MHz, MA, and Power Analysis. and all known decoders.

Has anyone noticed that i, 0, and 1 are missing from that option code chart? Also xAx9 doesn't appear to unlock the 1553B decoder.

Ah yes I was having trouble opening the PDF so was just reading the text file which isn't so straightforward.
I found a copy of the pdf here and now it makes more sense.

Yes I agree RA39 looks like it turns everything on.

Regarding the 1553B decoder, I'm not sure if anyone else has managed to enable that or if its just me. If just me then it was probably blind luck more than anything, and all I can say is its possible somehow :)

However I remember turning on the 'license reapplication bit' at some stage - which would make the second letter 'S' instead of 'A'. So maybe give that a try if you have tried everything else.

I used RS39, on my first attempt, and that gave me the 1553B decoder and Power Analysis options, and I already had everything else from the previous time I used the FAB9 option code. Everything shows up in my Rigol Installed Options Menu, I know because I found in the firmware code were the menu text is located...

Code: [Select]
$ strings DS4000Update.GEL |grep "Trial Version" -A24
Trial Version
Expired
Never Expires
Minute
Option Name:
Time Left:
Offcial Version
RS232
FlexRay
500M
350M
200M
1553B
RS232 Decoder
SPI Decoder
I2C Decoder
CAN Decoder
FlexRay Decoder
Bandwidth 500M
Bandwidth 350M
Bandwidth 200M
Power Analysis
1553B Decoder
Installed Options
Option Edition:

What exactly is the difference between xAxx and xSxx? Do other characters work in the second position?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on October 24, 2015, 07:11:16 pm
I used RS39, on my first attempt, and that gave me the 1553B decoder and Power Analysis options, and I already had everything else from the previous time I used the FAB9 option code.

What exactly is the difference between xAxx and xSxx? Do other characters work in the second position?

Nice one :)

Using S turns on the top bit, whereas A turns off all of the bits.
The top bit is described as the 'License re-application bit' in this text file:
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000%20Series%20Options.txt (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000%20Series%20Options.txt)

My guess on the A vs S is that its not a licence re-application bit at all. Instead it just changes the option bits to select the PA and 1553B  options instead of the standard set of options.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: nbritton on October 25, 2015, 08:48:54 am
I used RS39, on my first attempt, and that gave me the 1553B decoder and Power Analysis options, and I already had everything else from the previous time I used the FAB9 option code.

What exactly is the difference between xAxx and xSxx? Do other characters work in the second position?

Nice one :)

Using S turns on the top bit, whereas A turns off all of the bits.
The top bit is described as the 'License re-application bit' in this text file:
http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000%20Series%20Options.txt (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000%20Series%20Options.txt)

My guess on the A vs S is that its not a licence re-application bit at all. Instead it just changes the option bits to select the PA and 1553B  options instead of the standard set of options.

By my calculations there are only 1024 valid option codes:

The first bit in the first position can only be a 0, because 1 equals trial, so that eliminates S through 9. That yields 16 combinations.
The second position can purportedly only be an A or S, so that's 2 combinations.
The third position can be any alphanumeric character combination, so that's 32 combinations.
The fourth position is always a 9 assuming that you want all decoders, so that's 1 combinations.

Thus 16 x 2 x 32 x 1 = 1024
 
I wonder what would happen if you used the code R999, that would set the bits to 01111-11111-11111-11111.

Edit: Actually I'd like to know what happens for all of the following codes, remember that 0, 1, and I are missing from the code table:
0000
0A00
0S00
1111
1A11
1S11
4000
9999
9A99
9S99
IIII
IAII
ISII
R999
RA00
RA11
RA30
RA31
RA39
RA3I
RA99
RAII
RI00
RI40
RI99
RS39
RS99
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: nbritton on October 25, 2015, 08:31:27 pm
I got curious so I tried all the codes for the second position (Rx39), below are the results. Also noticed in the key entry options setup page that the 0, 1, I, and O keys are missing, so I wasn't able to test those combinations. Another interesting thing I found was that after I entered in 32 keys the system wouldn't let me enter in anymore, when I pressed the apply button noting happened. I tried uninstalling the keys but that still wouldn't let me enter more keys, I ended up having to do a factory reset before it would start accepting more keys. I didn't notice anything special after trying all these keys. I did retry RA39 after the factory reset and that option code did install everything just like RS39 did. I reset the device again and used code RZ99 and that code also gave me every option, RZ99 has a bit pattern of 01111-10111-11111-11111.

Code: [Select]
Code: Bits: Action:
RA39 00000 Option Installed!
RB39 00001 The option has been installed!
RC39 00010 Option Installed!
RD39 00011 The option has been installed!
RE39 00100 The option has been installed!
RF39 00101 The option has been installed!
RG39 00110 The option has been installed!
RH39 00111 Option Installed!
RJ39 01000 License is unavailable!
RK39 01001 License is unavailable!
RL39 01010 License is unavailable!
RM39 01011 License is unavailable!
RN39 01100 License is unavailable!
RP39 01101 License is unavailable!
RQ39 01110 License is unavailable!
RR39 01111 License is unavailable!
RS39 10000 Option Installed!
RT39 10001 Option Installed!
RU39 10010 The option has been installed!
RV39 10011 The option has been installed!
RW39 10100 The option has been installed!
RX39 10101 The option has been installed!
RY39 10110 The option has been installed!
RZ39 10111 Option Installed!
R239 11000 License is unavailable!
R339 11001 License is unavailable!
R439 11010 License is unavailable!
R539 11011 License is unavailable!
R639 11100 License is unavailable!
R739 11101 License is unavailable!
R839 11110 License is unavailable!
R939 11111 License is unavailable!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mrpackethead on October 30, 2015, 06:04:18 pm
Kind of congincing me to buy the 4 channel and be done with it.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on October 30, 2015, 11:02:12 pm
The best feature about the DS4000 series is the 4 channels!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on December 02, 2015, 07:53:11 am
New firmware just posted:

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on December 02, 2015, 08:50:29 am
It has a bug - you can't save and then load setups.  It gives a version error.  Even if you delete it, save a new one, it won't load it.   :palm:

Also, their font size increase for measurements runs into the waveform area.

Also, also, the counter is still freaking huge...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on December 02, 2015, 08:55:00 am
Yeah, this is a total fail.

I can't get my measurements size to even change, my counter is huge as well.

 :palm:
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on December 02, 2015, 08:57:25 am
I can't get my measurements size to even change, my counter is huge as well.

It is for the measurements at the BOTTOM selected from the left menu.  Change the size with them present and you'll see it change.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on December 02, 2015, 09:11:05 am
Ha, the one I don't even use.  Have you reported the save/load bug?

Thanks Alan.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on December 02, 2015, 09:28:10 am
Yep, and I complained about the insane counter size again as well.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on December 02, 2015, 12:20:02 pm
And this is an expensive scope, not for hobbyists.  :(
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on December 02, 2015, 11:58:31 pm
It has a bug - you can't save and then load setups.  It gives a version error.  Even if you delete it, save a new one, it won't load it.   :palm:
Yes, I can confirm that... :(
 
Also, their font size increase for measurements runs into the waveform area.
This happens only on the Ultra large setting, and it mostly covers the grid delimiter... I personally don't care and would be much more annoyed if either the grid area or the channel voltage settings were reduced in size to accommodate that.

Also, also, the counter is still freaking huge...
Yes, that is very strange.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: gigasampler on December 13, 2015, 01:51:24 am
I've just become a proud owner of a used DS4014 and have been busy testing the scope which seems to work well.

While doing that, I have encountered some problems with RS232 protocol decoding and on one occasion a specific key sequence caused the instrument to freeze and I had to powercycle.

My Firmware is Version "00.02.00" and my Hardware is Version "1.2" as seen when pressing Utility > System > System Info

I'm wondering if it is wise to upgrade to a later/latest firmware, but I don't know if my hardware version is compatible with the latest firmware.

I don't want to brick the scope as I have to use it for project, but it would be nice to upgrade and get rid of the accumulated bugs.

Has anyone got the latest firmware running on a DS4014 with hardware version1.2 ?
Is it required to upgrade in steps or straight to the latest version?
Has anyone bricked a DS4014 or similar by performing a firmware upgrade?

Any infos would be much appreciated. Many thanks!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on December 13, 2015, 07:34:44 am
I've just become a proud owner of a used DS4014 and have been busy testing the scope which seems to work well.

While doing that, I have encountered some problems with RS232 protocol decoding and on one occasion a specific key sequence caused the instrument to freeze and I had to powercycle.

My Firmware is Version "00.02.00" and my Hardware is Version "1.2" as seen when pressing Utility > System > System Info

I'm wondering if it is wise to upgrade to a later/latest firmware, but I don't know if my hardware version is compatible with the latest firmware.

I don't want to brick the scope as I have to use it for project, but it would be nice to upgrade and get rid of the accumulated bugs.

Has anyone got the latest firmware running on a DS4014 with hardware version1.2 ?
Is it required to upgrade in steps or straight to the latest version?
Has anyone bricked a DS4014 or similar by performing a firmware upgrade?

Any infos would be much appreciated. Many thanks!


I haven't heard of any DS4k scopes being bricked by an upgrade, and I've done a few with no problems. However my scope is version 1.3 FWIW.

When you request the firmware on the rigolna www site they ask for the firmware information.
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm)
If you have any doubts just reply to the email linking to the firmware. I have always had quick responses from them.


For reference, there is a more detailed Sys Info page available as well, the following process should get you there:
Press Trigger Menu and set edge trigger (then leave the menu open)
Press the following buttons quickly: F7 F6 F7 Utility

Then go into the System Info menu again and you should see more details.
In that menu my scope shows this when the extra detail is enabled:

Software version: 00.02.02.04.03
Hardware version: 0.1.3.1
{etc}

And this when it is disabled:

Software version: 00.02.02.SP4
Hardware version: 1.3

Note:- I haven't installed the very latest firmware which is mentioned in this thread due to the comments about it having a bug.

Hope that helps, enjoy the scope :)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: gigasampler on December 16, 2015, 08:31:41 am
Hi Hendorog,

That sounds promising, many thanks for your infos.

I have contacted Rigol as well and they have been quick to reply and were very helpful.
Apparently all DS4 hardware is compatible with the latest revisions of the firmware.

I will attempt to upgrade to 00.02.02.04.03 shortly, fingers crossed.  :)


Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: gigasampler on December 19, 2015, 02:29:59 am
All good, firmware updated easily on HW version 0.1.2.3 (detailed system info).

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on December 19, 2015, 04:31:12 am
Hi there!

Anybody around who can attach the latest firmware?


Rgds
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: gigasampler on December 19, 2015, 05:21:51 am
See  Reply #328, there's a link...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on December 19, 2015, 11:20:14 pm
See  Reply #328, there's a link...

The link links to the firmware release notes, not the firmware itself. Would like to get the firmware update file attached.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on December 20, 2015, 01:43:10 am
Don't update to the 00.02.02.05.02 version, there is a bug that doesn't allow you to load/save a setup.  Waiting for a new version to fix this.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: gigasampler on December 20, 2015, 07:22:01 am
Sorry Gunb, maximum attachment size is 1MB, not enough for firmware file.
Contact Rigol and request it here:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on December 21, 2015, 07:20:14 pm
Don't update to the 00.02.02.05.02 version, there is a bug that doesn't allow you to load/save a setup.  Waiting for a new version to fix this.

OK, good to know, thx.


Sorry Gunb, maximum attachment size is 1MB, not enough for firmware file.
Contact Rigol and request it here:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/001e:d-0001/0/-/-/-/-/index.htm)

Yes, I know. I wanted to get it earlier. Don't like the RIGOL way of asking for firmware always. But as long as the latest release is buggy I'm won't update.
Thank so far, too.


Rgds
Gunb
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on December 21, 2015, 10:22:02 pm
In my experience you no longer have to ask for it always.
After a certain point in time it seems like they set up a mailing list / subscription thing. From time to time I get emails from them with links to the latest firmware for the instruments I've previously requested the firmware for. I don't even have to go looking for it, when there's a new version they tell me about it. Of course, if you're using disposable email adresses and that kind of stuff it won't work.

If you're not going to update untill the firmware is free of bugs you're not ever going to update. I haven't updated to the latest because I haven't had any issues with what I have and I never save/load setups so that particular bug wouldn't bother me much. YMMV of course.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on December 22, 2015, 10:01:29 pm
In my experience you no longer have to ask for it always.
After a certain point in time it seems like they set up a mailing list / subscription thing. From time to time I get emails from them with links to the latest firmware for the instruments I've previously requested the firmware for. I don't even have to go looking for it, when there's a new version they tell me about it. Of course, if you're using disposable email adresses and that kind of stuff it won't work.

If you're not going to update untill the firmware is free of bugs you're not ever going to update. I haven't updated to the latest because I haven't had any issues with what I have and I never save/load setups so that particular bug wouldn't bother me much. YMMV of course.

Who said I'd never have updated the scope? I'm one of the first owners of the DS4000. And I fixed a few bugs in the ealier releases by reporting bugs to the German Rigol support in the past. The point is that it would be easier to offer free download as Hameg is doing instead of cumbersome registration. In the past my contact at Rigol sent it to me directly. But of course you're right, it's not a big deal to registrate.

The 2nd point is that me current version is 02.02.SP3 and 3 HMOs are also in my office which are used more often. A few users above reported that the firmware seems to be a step back instead of providing real improvements. That's the reason why I thought about waiting for a better release. So, the question is what are the pros and cons to update or not?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on December 22, 2015, 11:28:00 pm
Quote
Who said I'd never have updated the scope?
No one said that. All I'm saying is that if you're waiting for a bug free version before updating you're going to be stuck where you are because every version will be "buggy". If the bugs in that particular version hurts you or not is of course up to each and every one to decide. The revision history included in the firmware download isn't all that great (but better than nothing) and does of course not include any newly introduced bugs...

BTW, I looked at the release notes for the HMO3000, IMHO it's not much better (ie more detailed) than for the DS4k except for the fact that it includes a "section" with known issues.

I agree that a simple download might be "easier" but then I'd have to go check regularily. Now I just get an email when there is a new version - with a link to download it. I can certainly live with that - if they don't break it of course....

Quote
So, the question is what are the pros and cons to update or not?
Well, the pros are listed in the release notes. The cons, apparently, is that save/load setups are broken. I don't know of anything else but I'm sure there is.

Quote
I'm one of the first owners of the DS4000. And I fixed a few bugs in the ealier releases by reporting bugs to the German Rigol support in the past.
I've had my DS4k for a while too, May 2012 to be precise, so I've gone thru a couple of versions and reported some bugs as well. I won't take credit for actually fixing them though.

At one point (when they went to fixing the decoding issues on the lesser DS2k and left the DS4k hanging) I had the feeling they'd dropped the DS4k all together but was assured that wasn't the case. I now feel they are making progress with a couple (3) updates this year.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jboard146 on December 23, 2015, 08:46:00 am
I did the 00.02.02.05.02 yesterday.
I previously had one of the hacked firmware images that made it a 500Mhz scope.

I successfully upgraded the firmware. Then of course my scope reverted back to the DS4014 model.

I then did a key generation at http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol-103d/ (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol-103d/)
using the RS39 Option code which is the "everything" code.

I didn't have a chance to see if they fixed the decoding or is that still broken and basically useless.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on December 23, 2015, 05:32:10 pm
If you mean decoding segmented memory then that was fixed a couple of versions back. I don't see it mentioned in the release notes though but those are, as have been said, a bit cryptic.

I used to be on the Mr.Kratz 500MHz firmware image as well but when the bandwidth unlock codes where discovered quite some time ago now I upgraded (to get the fix for the decoders) and applied the option code. The scope then reported itself as a DS4054. The release notes (for 02.02.04.03) mentions a change to that behaviour so I'm curious, does your scope say it's a DS4014 with a 500MHz bandwidth option enabled or does it say it's a DS4054?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gunb on December 23, 2015, 08:05:23 pm
No one said that. All I'm sayi....

Well, I think there's a misunderstanding. My question should be "does it make sense to update to THIS latest release" or wait for the next because some people here mentioned to wait because this special one is crap? That might happen seldom but sometimes it happens.

And yes, I agree with you, there's never ever a bugfree firmware. Some people here in this forum swear by the Agilent / Keysight and take them to skies but my experience in the lab with different Agilents / Keysight scopes show me without surprise that even these scopes have bugs in the trigger unit, problems with saving pictures to a stick etc.

I'm a development engineer for embedded and started in 1981 with an ZX81 during the home computer era, later on studied communication electronics. To my opinion it's absolutely OK if devices with complex firmware / software have bugs, can't be avoided but only reduced to a minimum. More important is a good and reliable support which offers updates to fix the know issues. As long as this is guaranteed everything's fine!

Concerning the DS4000 series I think they are good scopes. It works reliable and does not have more or less bugs than other manufacturers have got, too.

By the way, my very expensive Agilent multimeter 1242 of the first series which I've bought around 2008 is broken meanwhile although I didn't use it very often. Switching it on shows a voltage of approx. -2V and when switching to resistor measurement it is spinning from max to min permanently. I replaced it with a UNI-T for about 80,-€.

So, I'm generally satisfied with the DS4000.

Would appreciate not to spread my address and email to different companies, too much data mining today. The reason, why I asked for the firmware here in the forum first instead of contacting Rigol. It's only my personal opinion, no criticism if others think different.


Have a nice day,
Gunb


When will the forum get decent quotation functionality???
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on January 23, 2016, 02:39:47 pm
I checked with Rigol tech support and there is still no new version to address the setup load/save bug.....
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mburgin on March 16, 2016, 09:24:10 am
I have recently noticed a strange "feature" of my DS4024 (originally I said DS2024 by mistake which caused some confusion.  Oops!) that might be a firmware bug or could just be an issue with my particular scope.

If I look at a signal with a fast edge such as the scope's aux output set to "fast" and I set the scope to its fastest timebase (2ns) I see the waveform jump left about half a division relative to the trigger position marker whenever I "stop" the trace and adjust the horizontal position in any way.  When I "run" again, the trace jumps right about half a division, back to where it should be.

I can also see this jump whenever I move the horizontal position control when the scope is running with a fast timebase setting.  When I move the horizontal control, the trace jumps to the left while it is being moved, but jumps back to the correct position whenever I stop changing the horizontal control.

Since this is a bit difficult to put into words, to be absolutely clear, these are the steps to reproduce the issue:
1. Connect scope's aux output to channel 1 input.
2. Set channel 1 input impedance to 50 ohms
3. Set vertical sensitivity and position so that the waveform is on screen
4. Set timebase to 2ns/div.
5. Adjust trigger level to get stable view of rising edge of the signal
6. Press the "run/stop" button to stop acquisition - the little triangular trigger position marker will be shown correctly aligned with the rising edge of the signal
7. Press the horizontal position control to centre the trigger position - the waveform will now jump to the right by half a division and the trigger position marker will stay in the centre.
8. Press the "run/stop" button to restart - the waveform will jump back to its correct position

Does anyone else see this same quirk?  If so, what firmware version are you running? I have recently updated to firmware version 00.02.02.05.02 and I don't remember seeing this issue before, but it could be that I just haven't noticed it in earlier versions.

Thanks
Mark

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: CustomEngineerer on March 16, 2016, 04:26:42 pm
Mark, by aux output do you mean the trigger out connection on the back of the scope? If so, I think that would explain what you are seeing. Since the trigger out only outputs a signal when it triggers, and you are feeding that back into the input (I am assuming here), and triggering off of that, I would expect to see some funkyness. If you have your scope in Auto mode, if it doesn't receive a trigger event, it auto triggers anyways after a certain amount of time so that it can show something on the screen. When that happens, the trigger output actually sends out a pulse, which then your scope triggers off of. After you have stopped the scope, when you press run again, there is no trigger event until it times out (based on your timebase), and then starts triggering faster off the trigger event it is outputting through the trigger out. Thats why when you first start it, it seems to jump, then jump back. You could verify this by setting the scope trigger to Normal instead of Auto. The screen should show no waveform at all because it doesn't generate an auto trigger, and so never outputs a waveform through the trigger out.

Have you tried hooking your scope up to an actual signal generator and verified this behavior?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on March 16, 2016, 04:31:59 pm
He's talking about the self calibration signal, not the trigger out.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mburgin on March 16, 2016, 06:30:36 pm
Yes, exactly!  I meant the signal on the back of the scope that you connect to for self-calibration.  Sorry, I should have been more clear!

Anyone seen this issue or confirm that they DON'T see the issue under the same test conditions?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mburgin on March 16, 2016, 06:35:32 pm
... and the connector on that back is put into "fast" mode using the option on page 2 of the "Utility" menu.  It is just a 1.25MHz square wave with very fast rise and fall times.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: CustomEngineerer on March 17, 2016, 11:34:27 am
I see. It was the "DS2024" for model number that threw me. I have a DS2072A, and they don't have an aux output on it. A bunch didn't add up, why you would be posting about a DS2000 in a DS4000 thread, what you meant by aux output, the DS2000 series not having a 4 channel model, how you could possibly set the trigger output to "Fast Mode". Though all that would make sense if the model is a DS4024.  My bad :palm:

Funny thing, I actually hooked my DS2072A scope up the way I thought you were suggesting this morning before I left for work, and before I saw yours and hendorog's responses, and I did see the exact behavior I described above when connecting the trigger output to the channel 1 input, and setting all the settings the way you listed, except for obviously setting the Aux Output to "Fast Mode".

Meh, I'll count that as a big swing and a miss.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mburgin on March 17, 2016, 06:43:39 pm
Oops!!!  Now I understand your confusion.  Of course I should have said that my scope is a DS4024 - I have corrected it now in my original post to hide my shame :-[.

Sorry about that!

For completeness, I have tried connecting my DS4024 to an external signal source and I still see the same waveform jumping problem.  In my case, the strange behaviour is not caused by the self triggering effect that you describe.

Another way that I have discovered to see the same problem is to change the display mode from vectors to dots.  In vector mode the trigger point marker is position perfectly correctly relative to the point on the waveform where it crosses the trigger level, but in dots mode it is offset by about half a division to the left with a 2ns/div timebase setting.

Mark
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on March 18, 2016, 10:50:01 pm
I see the same in my DS4014. A small skip when performing step 7 above. This also happens if you change the timebase or the amplitude as well.

It surely skips a few steps when updating the display buffer with the acquisition buffer (which happens when the vert/horz controls are activated).
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mburgin on March 19, 2016, 02:19:35 am
Thanks for the confirmation, rsjsouza.  At least I now know that my scope isn't broken.

What firmware version do you have?  I am wondering if it is a bug introduced in one of the later firmware versions since I haven't noticed this issue until recently.  I only spotted it soon after I upgraded to version 00.02.02.05.02.  I don't remember seeing it with my previously installed version, 00.01.00.00.07, but I could have just missed it.

I find it to be particularly annoying when I am trying to shift the waveform horizontally to align it to the graticule.  You get it aligned and then, as soon as you stop turning the horizontal position control, it jumps to the right a bit!  So, you turn the control left and the waveform immediately jumps to the left and passed where you want it to be!!!

Hopefully it will be fixed in a new version of the firmware.

Regards
Mark
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on March 19, 2016, 07:12:58 am
Mark, I have whatever was the latest they posted - I think 00.02.02.05.02, which is the same as yours.

Some bugs were fixed with this version, but unfortunately others were introduced. Out of these, the one that annoys me the most is the inability to save settings to the USB pendrive.

Another bug that used to be very upsetting was the terribly slow speed to save files to USB pendrives. However, you can easily workaround this if you format the pendrive as FAT16.

These levels of bugs are not yet deal breakers for me, especially after using a dog slow TDS7104 at work...   :=\
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mburgin on March 19, 2016, 09:59:46 am
Yes, the save settings bug in 00.02.02.05.02 is a bit of a nuisance.

Does anyone know the logic of the Rigol firmware version numbers.  With 5 different digit pairs they must have a lot of different update severity categories in mind - perhaps minor correction that fixes a typo in a message in the right-most pair of digits, through to major update that adds new features in the second digit pair.  But I wonder what they are saving the leftmost pair of digits for?

Version 01.WW.XX.YY.ZZ would be a major update indeed!

Mark
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on April 03, 2016, 08:43:56 pm
Could someone on the latest DS4k firmware please try to replicate this bug:

FFT for channel number x is forced to zero when channel number x-1 is switched to GND coupling

1: Connect a probe to channel 2 and observe some trace
2: Turn on FFT for channel 2 and observe some spectrum
3: Switch Coupling for channel 1 to GND
4: Observe FFT trace for channel 2 is now zero.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on April 05, 2016, 12:23:43 am
FFT for channel number x is forced to zero when channel number x-1 is switched to GND coupling
Yes, that happens here as well. Latest FW.

Also, did you notice that the trigger line on the display disappears? IIRC this happened with me when I closed the FFT mode. To bring it back I had to go to Trigger menu and fiddle with something there.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: ted572 on May 10, 2016, 06:14:57 am
New DS4000 Firmware, Version 00.02.03.00.03, 3 MB, Released 2016-05-05:

http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160505/DS4000(DSP)update.zip (http://int.rigol.com/File/ProductSoftWare/20160505/DS4000(DSP)update.zip)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on May 10, 2016, 03:33:49 pm
Thanks!
Unfortunately they've apparently went back to not include the change notes etc  ???
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on May 10, 2016, 11:32:26 pm
I think they are *supposed* to remove the notes, but sometimes they forget...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on May 11, 2016, 12:26:06 am
I guess I am wrong, here it is online:

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05bf/1/-/-/-/-/DS4000%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-05bf/1/-/-/-/-/DS4000%20Firmware%20Release%20Notes.pdf)

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mburgin on May 11, 2016, 12:46:54 am
Hi

Has anybody tried the new firmware version for the MSO/DS4000 series (00.02.03.00.03)?  Does it fix anything?  Does it break anything?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on May 11, 2016, 02:12:25 am
I just updated to it.  Everything seems fine.  It did fix the setup load/save bug, but the counter is still oversized.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: trukresom on May 11, 2016, 03:57:05 am
Hi,
I also updated a few minutes ago. But since then the traces are hidden by a grey empty
window as can be seen on the screenshot below.
Do you think, that a downgrade to the previous version is possible ?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 11, 2016, 04:14:51 am
Did you try to turn the scope off and on and pressing the Clear button?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on May 11, 2016, 04:15:17 am
I'd say a downgrade is likely possible, but try to troubleshoot this first!  If you press the default button does the window go away?

There is a way to reset the settings too by pressing one of the gray buttons repeatedly while turning it on - I can't recall which one, maybe the 5th one down on the left?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on May 11, 2016, 06:11:22 am
I just updated and can confirm the setup save/load works fine. The counter is big but it doesn't bother me. Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to test it thoroughly.

Regarding the big box in the center, I had a slightly different one (it had two grids with Vrms and Freq). I went to the measure button and cleared all measurements - the box went away.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: trukresom on May 11, 2016, 06:41:53 am
Hi,

Pressing the Default button and then OK solved the problem; the mysterious window disappeared.
Indeed it had exactly the size of the History Graph window but was empty.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on May 11, 2016, 11:47:11 am
Could someone on the latest DS4k firmware please try to replicate this bug:

FFT for channel number x is forced to zero when channel number x-1 is switched to GND coupling

1: Connect a probe to channel 2 and observe some trace
2: Turn on FFT for channel 2 and observe some spectrum
3: Switch Coupling for channel 1 to GND
4: Observe FFT trace for channel 2 is now zero.
BTW, this still happens with the latest firmware.

FFT for channel number x is forced to zero when channel number x-1 is switched to GND coupling
Yes, that happens here as well. Latest FW.

Also, did you notice that the trigger line on the display disappears? IIRC this happened with me when I closed the FFT mode. To bring it back I had to go to Trigger menu and fiddle with something there.
This does not happen with the new firmware.

Also, the new firmware fixes the issue with the super slow FAT32 file save.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Andrew8086 on May 15, 2016, 02:37:21 am
Fun with 00.02.03.00.03: In the trigger menu falling and rising edge trigger options are exchanged: choosing 'rising edge' triggers on falling edge and vice versa.
Don't want to downgrade just to check - is that a new one or didn't I catch this before? 
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on May 15, 2016, 04:39:02 am
It works fine for me.  I connected up CH1 to the square wave output and on rising it triggers on rising and on falling it triggers on falling...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TurboTom on May 15, 2016, 05:55:49 am
Fun with 00.02.03.00.03: In the trigger menu falling and rising edge trigger options are exchanged: choosing 'rising edge' triggers on falling edge and vice versa.
Don't want to downgrade just to check - is that a new one or didn't I catch this before?

Maybe the corresponding input channel is set inverted? On mine, the polarity of the trigger slope is correct after the update (as it has been before as well...).

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Andrew8086 on May 15, 2016, 06:32:33 am

Maybe the corresponding input channel is set inverted? On mine, the polarity of the trigger slope is correct after the update (as it has been before as well...).

Cheers,
Thomas

Yes that's it, my bad.  :palm: All 4 channels were set to inverted after the Fw upgrade ...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on May 30, 2016, 04:51:48 am
I just changed the encoder on my DS4014 with the model mentioned in this other thread (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-rotary-encoder-mod/) (ALPS EC12E2424407) and it works really well for push-select - no missed selections at all! The only detail is that its detented force is much higher than the other detented encoders present in the unit (vertical and horizontal encoders). I couldn't see any significant difference in height between the old and the new encoder, as reported in the other thread with the DS1054Z.

If you want to do this you have to remove the back cover and remove only the outer screws from the main chassis - removing the main PCB from the chassis is not needed at all - see the first screenshot. Also, you have to remove the front panel overlay decal as there are screws under it (mine was not even attached - they forgot to peel the adhesive protection).

Also, at least in my unit, the upper buttons (Clear, Auto, Run/Stop, Single) are connected to the main front panel PCB via a very tiny and flimsy connection: the IDC ribbon cable is properly tied to a connector on the main front PCB, but it is just soldered under the button PCB. Both the connector and the solder areas were full of silicone glue; the solder side broke and took me some work to put it back together.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TurboTom on June 04, 2016, 12:09:55 am
Since I replaced the multi-function knob encoder on my DS100Z with a detented one quite a while ago, I could never accomodate myself with the non-detented ones on my recently acquired MSO4000 (multi-function and logic analzyer controls). The non-detented ones are completely acceptable for those functions that emulate analog inputs (like trigger level, trace position and so on) but in my opinion an absolute no-go for for anything "digital".

So I cracked that thing open and swapped in two decent ALPS encoders (the original ones don't appear to be bad quality, it's only Rigol used the wrong type in that place). The usability is so much better now -- I don't get annoyed anymore when I've got to change the settings. Moreover, the detent function camouflages the laggy display update rate quite well. It's amazing how the human brain integrated the different sensoric perceptions. If I need to select an item three lines down, I just turn the know three detents without even having to look at the screen. And most beneficial, pressing the button doesn't affect the setting anymore.

I only hope I'll never have a defect on the device so I'ld have to swap in the original ones to validate warranty again...

Another interesting finding during disassembly: Since my scope is an MSO version and is of fairly recent manufacturing date (february 2016), it shows that Rigol continuously improves their products, see the attached photo. They took care of the rather hot-running ADCs (as reported by several contributors) by replacing the individual heat sinks with a single, big, machined heat sink that covers the whole "high temp area" of the digital signal processing path. Well done! Moreover, the photo finally shows the purpose of the high speed connector on the main board that Connor Wolf was referring to in his teardown video. This connector isn't visible in the photo but it shows that it actually intefaces to the logic analyer subassembly on the MSO models. Altogether, hardware-wise the current production DS / MSO 4000 scopes are very neat and tidy machines and I don't think they lack behind any of the "A brand" designs. The firmware may have its issues but at least Rigol is still providing updates once in a while.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: tautech on June 04, 2016, 12:16:34 am
Another interesting finding during disassembly: Since my scope is an MSO version and is of fairly recent manufacturing date (february 2016), it shows that Rigol continuously improves their products, see the attached photo. They took care of the rather hot-running ADCs (as reported by several contributors) by replacing the individual heat sinks with a single, big, machined heat sink that covers the whole "high temp area" of the digital signal processing path.
What some may want to know is your DSO's HW revision #.
Can you check it and post it?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TurboTom on June 04, 2016, 12:31:46 am
Sure. H/W of my MSO4014 is 0.1.3.1

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on June 04, 2016, 06:11:58 am
Sure. H/W of my MSO4014 is 0.1.3.1

Cheers,
Thomas

Nice work on the encoder, and thanks for thinking to ask that question tautech.

Another data point - My scope is from mid 2014 and the HW version is also 0.1.3.1
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on June 04, 2016, 06:29:26 am
My DS4014 had only one heatsink in the main Virtex 5 FPGA - everything else was left to fend for themselves. Also it looks like they used a caulk gun to put the thermal adhesive - I haven't seen so much white gunk on a heatsink before! :rant:

I bought some beefy heatsinks and used a very thin layer of Arctic Silver thermal adhesive to tie them to the remaining Virtex 5s. The heatsinks I bought for the ADCs from Thermalloy already had the thermal adhesive pad.

One additional detail is that my board only had the PLL part number scrapped - all others were intact.

I will post the HW rev, pictures and the heatsink models later.

So I cracked that thing open and swapped in two decent ALPS encoders (the original ones don't appear to be bad quality, it's only Rigol used the wrong type in that place).
I agree: the original encoders have good quality but the difference in usability is massive!

Another interesting finding during disassembly: Since my scope is an MSO version and is of fairly recent manufacturing date (february 2016), it shows that Rigol continuously improves their products, see the attached photo. They took care of the rather hot-running ADCs (as reported by several contributors) by replacing the individual heat sinks with a single, big, machined heat sink that covers the whole "high temp area" of the digital signal processing path. Well done!
After the heatsink hackjob on mine, just be sure the large heatsink is actually touching the ADCs, as I recall they were slightly thinner than the Virtex 5s.

Moreover, the photo finally shows the purpose of the high speed connector on the main board that Connor Wolf was referring to in his teardown video. This connector isn't visible in the photo but it shows that it actually intefaces to the logic analyer subassembly on the MSO models.
My non-MSO oscilloscope has the high-speed connector populated. Interesting to see its function.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: tautech on June 04, 2016, 06:53:20 am
Sure. H/W of my MSO4014 is 0.1.3.1

Cheers,
Thomas

Nice work on the encoder, and thanks for thinking to ask that question tautech.

Another data point - My scope is from mid 2014 and the HW version is also 0.1.3.1
And with no common heatsink?
Same model?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on June 04, 2016, 07:00:06 am
Sure. H/W of my MSO4014 is 0.1.3.1

Cheers,
Thomas

Nice work on the encoder, and thanks for thinking to ask that question tautech.



Another data point - My scope is from mid 2014 and the HW version is also 0.1.3.1
And with no common heatsink?
Same model?

Mine is a DS4014 like rsjsouza, not an MS like Tom's. I don't know about the heatsink situation, as I haven't pulled it apart :)

Anyone know if it can be seen from the outside?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on June 04, 2016, 07:28:13 am
Sure. H/W of my MSO4014 is 0.1.3.1

Cheers,
Thomas

Nice work on the encoder, and thanks for thinking to ask that question tautech.

Another data point - My scope is from mid 2014 and the HW version is also 0.1.3.1
And with no common heatsink?
Same model?

OK the heatsinks are partially visible from the outside. I can see in through the grill from the right hand end of Tom's picture.

Conclusion is that the heatsinks are not the same configuration as in the picture Tom posted.
Mine definitely has individual heatsinks - so it is like Conner Wolf's teardown: https://youtu.be/_J1pVlqMIHM?t=584

So, yep it would seem that the H/W version number hasn't been changed to match the different assembly.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on June 04, 2016, 07:58:27 am
The HW rev is assigned by a bunch of small resistors soldered in the PCB, close to the coin cell.

I need to check my pictures at home, but I would expect that at least a PCB revision was needed, as I don't recall it having the proper holes to accommodate the screws that fit the heatsink as shown in TurboTom's picture.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on June 04, 2016, 09:59:07 pm
I'll put a detented encoder on my next Digikey order for the purpose of replacing the multifunction knob on my DS4k.

Some encoders have a detent per cycle while others have a detent per state change within the quadrature cycle (ie 4 detents per cycle).
Looking at the datasheet for the ALPS encoder (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1685514.pdf) mentioned earlier it says it's got 24 detents and a resolution of 24. To me that means this particular encoder has a detent per state change - not per cycle (which seems to be the more common type). Unfortunately there's no "timing diagram" in the datasheet so I'm not 100% sure.

Digikey doesn't stock the specific ALPS encoder or I would've just got that one. Am I correct in selecting an encoder with one detent per state change?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on June 04, 2016, 10:07:27 pm
Well, what do you know? My HW version also says 0.1.3.1, but my board was like the one attached.

The heatsinks I used were:
Wakefield 630-60AB (https://www.newark.com/wakefield-solutions/630-60ab/heat-sink/dp/73H5121?krypto=0%2B9ClpxZ%2FEIPUPOu7ynd1Tuhu5njfFQp6PMt2EP96fUg2eE8yJIUn6eOz%2F%2BXBvB5EJs3cM%2F13Pq2%0AMNttEFItRmi%2B37x9o1XhPazjf0%2B2NlA1omjI%2Fb4kDw%3D%3D) for the Virtex 5s
Thermalloy 374424B00032G (https://www.newark.com/aavid-thermalloy/374424b00032g/heat-sink/dp/51R8103?krypto=FVvDH0hyNsgJYItz29NdcpLlTe8Fg9ZwXs30%2B%2FGkh3%2BCAOjSgwJO2m8tEKl03vWvmsJFiK%2FLtsyM%0AzRkll1XENoS4%2BgFzYahQAwlXL%2BEPka%2Bqnfpe6ZeNbQ%3D%3D) for the ADCs

To glue the Wakefield heatsinks to the devices I used a thin layer of the Arctic Silver Thermal Adhesive (http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_thermal_adhesive.htm). The Thermalloys already had the adhesive thermal pad.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TurboTom on June 06, 2016, 04:33:14 pm
After I replaced the multi-function / logic analyzer incremental encoders with detented ones, I noticed that the user interface of the DS/MSO 4000 is somewhat inconsistent: Some of the (sub-) menues with only few positions like input coupling for inctance need the controls to be turned two detents to change item while others with many positions (like trigger source on the MSO where you can select each digital channel) change line with every detent. Whatsoever, simply the fact that the setting won't change anymore when pressing the encoder button improves usability a lot.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on June 06, 2016, 05:54:43 pm
I wonder if they've implemented different decoding depending on which menu you're in. A menu with many selections is using 4x while a menu with a less items is using 2x - perhaps. That certainly "works" with a non detented encoder but not so well with a detented one.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on June 06, 2016, 08:23:18 pm
Come to think of it, I also noticed a similar thing on some menus, however the alphanumeric keypad has been consistently mapped 1:1 for me - that and the fact the push selection is absolutely stable on all menus.

My suspicion is they employed a different encoding to overcome different delays in the UI, which caused over-sensitivity on a free-running encoder.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on June 08, 2016, 11:58:46 am
Did you guys see the DS4014E and DS4024E they have on the Chinese site.  The DS4014E looks to be about half the price of the DS4014 if you look at the CNY numbers they have.  Oddly, it only has 2GSa/s listed instead of 4GSa/s - one has to wonder why they are still calling it a DS4...

http://rigol.com/Product/Index/88 (http://rigol.com/Product/Index/88)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on June 08, 2016, 05:53:20 pm
Did you guys see the DS4014E and DS4024E they have on the Chinese site.  The DS4014E looks to be about half the price of the DS4014 if you look at the CNY numbers they have.  Oddly, it only has 2GSa/s listed instead of 4GSa/s -
On Russian site
Is each channel @2GSa/s?
Added flex Ray decoding.
Are there hidden BW / memory options?

http://technica.ru/objects/download_files/article_pdf/Rigol_DS4000E_DataSheet_EN.pdf (http://technica.ru/objects/download_files/article_pdf/Rigol_DS4000E_DataSheet_EN.pdf)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on June 08, 2016, 09:47:30 pm
Is each channel @2GSa/s?
I don't think it is - similarly to the DS4000, it says "up to 2GSPS for each channel". I would find it hard they would save some money by simply removing the ADC channel interleaving. Perhaps it is a cheaper dual channel 1GSPS ADC and the 2GSPS is only on every two channels. It could also use a different frontend that goes only to 200MHz.

Added flex Ray decoding.
The DS4000 has FlexRay, and at a certain point Rigol offered this for free.

Three additional details: four channel only, smaller memory (14Mpts/channel) and slower update rate (60kwfm/s).
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hs3 on June 08, 2016, 11:58:34 pm
Three additional details: four channel only, smaller memory (14Mpts/channel) and slower update rate (60kwfm/s).
Could it be possible that they have done a lower cost re-design for the hardware with newer and cheaper as well as lower performance parts.

In the picture a few messages earlier it can be seen that there are 4 (could there maybe be 5th under that heatsink?) Xilinx Virtex 5 FPGAs and those are not the cheapest parts around.

I can't see in the photo what the exact part number is (would there exist an original better quality version of the photo that shows the part number on the Virtex?) but the cheapest Virtex 5 from Digikey is $250 for one piece:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG324C/122-1558-ND/1768318 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG324C/122-1558-ND/1768318)

Of course Rigol is not paying this kind prices but it's not cheap part in any case.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on June 09, 2016, 12:31:14 am
. I would find it hard they would save some money by simply removing the ADC channel interleaving of the MXT201's.
In the display ,pg3 ,shows 4chs and at 2GSa/s.  Perhaps dual DS4000 ADCs

Who is the target market?
Or dumping DS4000 end of life supplies?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on June 09, 2016, 04:35:25 am
I can't see in the photo what the exact part number is (would there exist an original better quality version of the photo that shows the part number on the Virtex?) but the cheapest Virtex 5 from Digikey is $250 for one piece:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG324C/122-1558-ND/1768318 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG324C/122-1558-ND/1768318)
That is the exact Virtex P/N on my DS4014.

I imagine they redesigned the product with a smaller framebuffer (about 1/2 of the original wfm/s) which may also require a smaller FPGA.

. I would find it hard they would save some money by simply removing the ADC channel interleaving of the MXT201's.
In the display ,pg3 ,shows 4chs and at 2GSa/s.  Perhaps dual DS4000 ADCs

Who is the target market?
Or dumping DS4000 end of life supplies?
I wonder if they missed the sales forecast for their DS4000 oscilloscopes and may be trying to recover some of the cost with a minimal redesign. I know many folks that wanted a DS2k with four channels, and that may be Rigol's response to that demand. 
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hs3 on June 09, 2016, 05:11:33 am
I can't see in the photo what the exact part number is (would there exist an original better quality version of the photo that shows the part number on the Virtex?) but the cheapest Virtex 5 from Digikey is $250 for one piece:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG324C/122-1558-ND/1768318 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG324C/122-1558-ND/1768318)
That is the exact Virtex P/N on my DS4014.

I imagine they redesigned the product with a smaller framebuffer (about 1/2 of the original wfm/s) which may also require a smaller FPGA.

Thank you for the closeup picture of the FPGA. Looks like they are using the larger FFG676 package with more IO.

So it would be this one for $287.50 each
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG676C/122-1559-ND/1768319 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG676C/122-1559-ND/1768319)

If the DS4000 uses 5 pieces of these FPGAs that would be $1437.50 just for the FPGAs at the Digikey price. I imagine it should be possible to design a more cost optimized version these days.

Also if they are creating a cost optimized version that is intended to sell at lower price then unless they are planning to completely discontinue the current DS4000 they will probably need some way to differentiate from the regular DS4000. For that they may limit some of the capabilities even if there would be no real technical reason for that.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on June 09, 2016, 05:55:00 am
Thank you for the closeup picture of the FPGA. Looks like they are using the larger FFG676 package with more IO.

So it would be this one for $287.50 each
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG676C/122-1559-ND/1768319 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG676C/122-1559-ND/1768319)

If the DS4000 uses 5 pieces of these FPGAs that would be $1437.50 just for the FPGAs at the Digikey price. I imagine it should be possible to design a more cost optimized version these days.

Also if they are creating a cost optimized version that is intended to sell at lower price then unless they are planning to completely discontinue the current DS4000 they will probably need some way to differentiate from the regular DS4000. For that they may limit some of the capabilities even if there would be no real technical reason for that.
The distributors do not have budgetary price for 1ku for this FPGA, therefore it is very difficult to figure out exactly how much Rigol is paying for them. I would imagine they have quoted at least multiples of 10ku (2ku of 4ch oscilloscopes), where price would be significantly reduced.

One could figure out something from the retail price difference between a DS4012 and a DS4014 (around $300 at Rigol NA (https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds4000/)) - if Rigol makes 20% of GPM over cost (a low estimate) and the distributor gets something else (12~15%?), the remaining $200 would be split among two extra ADCs, two FPGAs, eight DDR and two SRAM devices.

Reducing the cost of the ADC would also be significant, given the budgetary 1ku price for the closest spec'd to the MXT2001 (dual 1GSPS 8-bit ADC) is the ADC08D1020 (http://www.ti.com/product/ADC08D1020/samplebuy) at $329.

(edited as I wasn't thinking straight in my parts evaluation)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on June 09, 2016, 06:46:43 am
If you translate the page to English it says "economical" model.  It would be interesting if rigolna carries this someday.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on June 09, 2016, 04:55:27 pm
Emona (Oz) just sent out a promo email about the DS4000E.
Here is the link:

http://www.emona.com.au/ds4000/ (http://www.emona.com.au/ds4000/)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: John South on June 10, 2016, 01:00:22 pm
Hi All - Just to let you all know Rigol have indeed released two new DS-4000E models.

These are released to fill a cost gap in the range between the DS-1000Z and existing DS-4000 for a 4 channel 100/200Mhz DSO. There are 2 models , DS-2014E 100Mhz 4 ch and DS-4024E 200Mhz 4 ch

Primary differences as has been pointed out are ;
Lower price - the above link has our local $ Aud pricing
Max sample rate 2GS/s vs 4GS/s
Memory depth 14Mpts vs 140Mpts
wfms/s 60,000 vs 110,000 wfms/s

If you follow the link as above to the Emona web site you can click on more info and download a 10 page brochure.

If you have any questions on these at all let me know.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: John South on June 10, 2016, 01:01:48 pm
Sorry meant DS-4014E in the above post.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on June 10, 2016, 08:47:48 pm
Hi All - Just to let you all know Rigol have indeed released two new DS-4000E models.

These are released to fill a cost gap in the range between the DS-1000Z and existing DS-4000 for a 4 channel 100/200Mhz DSO. There are 2 models , DS-2014E 100Mhz 4 ch and DS-4024E 200Mhz 4 ch

Primary differences as has been pointed out are ;
Lower price - the above link has our local $ Aud pricing
Max sample rate 2GS/s vs 4GS/s
Memory depth 14Mpts vs 140Mpts
wfms/s 60,000 vs 110,000 wfms/s

If you follow the link as above to the Emona web site you can click on more info and download a 10 page brochure.

If you have any questions on these at all let me know.
John, thanks for confirming my initial suspicion: the DS4000E seems to address the demand for a "four channel" DS2000. A very smart move IMHO, given they only need to do a very minimal redesign.

BTW, do you know if the 2GSPS sample rate is active when all four channels are turned on? One of the pictures in the brochure seems to indicate that, but the DS4000 halves the sample rate every two channels.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on June 10, 2016, 10:00:12 pm
So, comparing the 100MHz models you get 55% of the waveform update rate, 50% of the sample rate and 10% of the memory for 80% of the price?
Until someone buys one and figures out it's STILL the same hardware and unlocks it I don't think it's going to sell much.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on June 10, 2016, 11:24:29 pm
It's actually weird that Rigol has introduced these new models as part of the DS4000 series, and not as part of the DS2000 series.

Before, the sample rate always defined the number in the DS series:
1 GS/s => DS1000 series
2 GS/s => DS2000 series
4 GS/s => DS4000 series

They could have used the following alternatives: DS2104A, DS2204A. Would be more logical to me!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on June 11, 2016, 12:11:37 am
If you check page 7 and page 9 in the Chinese product catalogue from Rigol,

https://www.google.no/?gws_rd=ssl#q=rigol.cn%2FFile%2FGuidAndView%2F%3F%3F%3F%3F_CN_201605.pdf (https://www.google.no/?gws_rd=ssl#q=rigol.cn%2FFile%2FGuidAndView%2F%3F%3F%3F%3F_CN_201605.pdf)

you can make the following observations:

When all 4 channels are used, DS4000 has 1 GS/s per channel, while DS4000E always has 2GS/s per channel.

When all 4 channels are used, DS4000 has 35 MPts per channel (140 MPts in total - shared for 4 channels), while the DS4000E series has 14MPts per channel.

Conclusion:

1) When all 4 channels are used, DS4000E has double the sample rate as the DS4000, but less than 50% of the memory depth.

2) When 2 channels are used, DS4000E has the same sample rate as the DS4000, but only 20% of the memory depth.

3) When 1 channel is used, DS4000E has half the sample rate as the DS4000, and only 10% of the memory depth.

So in terms of sample rate, the DS4000E series performs better than the DS4000 series when you use all 4 channels.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TurboTom on June 11, 2016, 12:41:05 am
The information provided in the linked catalogue is not correct regarding at least my MSO4014 (and I assume all DS/MSO4000 models delivered so far as well).

Sorry - I guess it's a misinterpretation of the chinese text: The last figure (1GSa/s and 28MPts) refers to the digital channels of the MSO models which is correct. This means also the rest of my posting is more or less redundant since this information has been provided elsewhere before... Such is life  ;)
_________________________

The model contains one 2GSa/s ADC for each analog input channel it has, i.e. the 40x2 models have two such ADCs and the 40x4 models four. Each channel pair has a processing engine (FPGA) and sampling memory (sufficient for 140MPts). If a single channel of a pair is used, the signal is fed to both ADCs and (apparently) the sampling clock interleaved, resulting in an output stream of 4GSa/s. If both channels of a pair are used, each ADC samples "its" analog input and the sampling memory is split between the two channels, resulting in 70MPts for each channel. A somewhat funny finding is that if on a four channel instrument three channels are turned on, the "single" channel of the pair where the other channel is unused, is forced to fall back to the 2GSa/s and 70MPts mode as well, maybe due to data display coherency reasons.

So it seems the "Economy" version of the 4000 series scopes lacks the sampling memory depth and the ability to interleave the ADCs to sample at twice their speed. Maybe this is a result of using smaller or less FPGAs. I doubt that the PCB and general hardware is that much different between the models. It's well possible the "Economy" models are just software crippled and can be hacked to full DS4000 performance (which would make them more than a bargain). I guess we can tell for sure only after the first teardown of an "Economy" model.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on June 11, 2016, 12:59:50 am
And it's not correct with regards to the DS4000 either.
For single channel it's 4Gs/s and 140Mpts, for dual channel it's half (2Gs/s and 70Mpts). If you have a four channel scope then you have two dual channel scopes connected to one screen.

So, on a four channel version you can have 2 channels (1/3 or 2/4 at 4Gs/s and 140Mpts each) or 3 or 4 channels at 2Gs/s and 70Mpts each.

I don't read Chinese but I'm pretty sure that 1Gs/s you see splashed in there with all the Chinese tokens is reffering to the sample rate for the digital channels - which on the DSMSO4000 is 1GHz.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on June 11, 2016, 03:47:31 am
And it's not correct with regards to the DS4000 either.
For single channel it's 4Gs/s and 140Mpts, for dual channel it's half (2Gs/s and 70Mpts). If you have a four channel scope then you have two dual channel scopes connected to one screen.

So, on a four channel version you can have 2 channels (1/3 or 2/4 at 4Gs/s and 140Mpts each) or 3 or 4 channels at 2Gs/s and 70Mpts each.

I don't read Chinese but I'm pretty sure that 1Gs/s you see splashed in there with all the Chinese tokens is reffering to the sample rate for the digital channels - which on the DSMSO4000 is 1GHz.
I can confirm what H.O. said.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on June 11, 2016, 06:57:03 am
So the DS4000E is locked at 4chan and 2GSa/s, or not needed for 200MHZ all channels

Note from Emona
Hi  - I'll check with Rigol and wether or not there are independent ADC's per ch. or shared and let you know.

I don't yet have a unit in country to try on , our demo stock are on order but still a few weeks off.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: CustomEngineerer on June 11, 2016, 04:04:34 pm
It's actually weird that Rigol has introduced these new models as part of the DS4000 series, and not as part of the DS2000 series.

Before, the sample rate always defined the number in the DS series:
1 GS/s => DS1000 series
2 GS/s => DS2000 series
4 GS/s => DS4000 series

They could have used the following alternatives: DS2104A, DS2204A. Would be more logical to me!

Completely agree. And also if the 14Mpts/channel is correct, 14Mpts x 4 = 56Mpts, same as the DS2000A, with memory option enabled.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on June 11, 2016, 11:32:42 pm
Moreover, if they would have introduced it in the DS2000 series, they could still have used an A for Advanced, instead of an E for Economy.

By definition, it is not good to use a letter in the model that indicates it is the Economy version :)
This way all your test & measurement friends know that you selected the model for Economy reasons.

I remember that some computer brands in the 90's even used the letters CR in the model number,
to indicate Cost Reduced. That's even worse :)

Anyhow, it should have been introduced in the DS2000 series for the reasons that I stated before.
(Sample rate = 2 GS/s => DS2000 series)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TurboTom on June 12, 2016, 12:47:57 am
Since it's not possible to offer a four channel scope in the DS/MSO 2000 form factor, and the market was demanding such a machine with more than 1GSa/s distributed over all four channels, it's just logical to follow the road of least effort and re-use what's already available. An instrument with an enclosure of the DS4000 series with a DS2000 designation would appear somewhat out-of-place. If it was a wise decision to introduce an "Economy" version is another question. It seems Rigol followed that road with several new products (see the DSA832E). Maybe a new designation for the oscilloscope (like DS3000 series) would have been the better coice.

In the end, designation doesn't matter as long as it performs well, it's reasonably priced and it's hackable...  8)

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on June 12, 2016, 01:05:28 am
I'm with Thomas. 2000, 4000, A, E whatever. Who cares about numbers on a sticker?
But again, I don't know about this "economy model"....the economy in it really doesn't look that good to me, the price difference is too small IMO - IF it doesn't turn out to be the same hardware of course.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on June 12, 2016, 01:07:31 am
, it's reasonably priced and it's hackable...
LOL
Upgradable ? NOT easy, I think, 
Could just be the DS2000 56M memory, different front end filter Amp.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on June 12, 2016, 01:09:46 am
Another alternative could have been to use the form factor of the DS1054Z, and call it DS2104Z :)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Teneyes on June 12, 2016, 04:28:55 pm
FYI , for USA , NA
---------------------------------------------
Hello
As per our chat last night.
We are currently accepting pre-orders for the DS4014E.
The estimated arrival for the US market is around 8/15.
Let us know.

Thank You,  Stephen
TEquipment.NET        205 Westwood Avenue | Long Branch, NJ 07740
Email: SalesTeam@TEquipment.NET


Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on June 12, 2016, 09:00:50 pm
, it's reasonably priced and it's hackable...
LOL
Upgradable ? NOT easy, I think, 
Could just be the DS2000 56M memory, different front end filter Amp.
The cost reduction has to come from somewhere, and there is plenty to reduce in a DS4000 as I stated before (FPGAs, ADCs, memory). I suspect memory and GSPS are not upgradeable, but perhaps decoders and other functions. Obviously we would only be sure after opening one up and comparing IC markings.

It's actually weird that Rigol has introduced these new models as part of the DS4000 series, and not as part of the DS2000 series.

Before, the sample rate always defined the number in the DS series:
1 GS/s => DS1000 series
2 GS/s => DS2000 series
4 GS/s => DS4000 series
Apart from the fact that:
5 GSPS => DS6000 series

Therefore I suspect Rigol is naming their families after "look and feel" instead of sample rate - don't forget these guys also have a larger screen, different button arrangement, etc.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hs3 on June 12, 2016, 10:58:28 pm
The cost reduction has to come from somewhere, and there is plenty to reduce in a DS4000 as I stated before (FPGAs, ADCs, memory). I suspect memory and GSPS are not upgradeable, but perhaps decoders and other functions. Obviously we would only be sure after opening one up and comparing IC markings.
Yes we have no idea if any re-design and cost reduction has actually been done.

But let's make a few calculations to see what might be possible with newer generation parts.

We can see in the earlier pictures that the DS4000 has 8 memory ICs per channel group. The part number is H5PS5162GFR which is a 32Mx16 DDR2 SDRAM.

So that is 64 MB per IC. So with 8 ICs total -> 512 MB memory. The spec for the scope is 140 MS so you would be able to fit that data over 3 times in the available memory. Not sure how Rigol is using the memory and if all of it is in use.

Total bandwidth needed to sample at 4 GS/s would be 4 GB/s. As there is 8 SDRAM ICs that is 512 MB/s per IC.

These are 16 bit wide so that would mean minimum 256 MHz memory clock + overhead. Let's say the memory interface would be running at DDR2-533 to have some headroom available. Not sure how fast memory interfaces are possible with Virtex 5.

Ok, googling "virtex 5 ddr2 bandwidth" helps:
http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/application_notes/xapp858.pdf (http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/application_notes/xapp858.pdf)
So looks like speed grade -1 Virtex 5 actually supports up to DDR2-533 for that reference design.

I think the current generation low cost FPGA from Xilinx would be Artix 7 probably.
http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/fpga/artix-7.html (http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/fpga/artix-7.html)
There it is mentioned that these support DDR3-1066 memory interfaces.

That would mean that you would be able to have similar bandwidth with the memory IC quantity reduced to half. That would allow reducing the FPGA I/O amount and package size needed.

That could be one way to reduce cost with newer components.

I don't think reducing the amount of memory would really offer much cost savings though. And if you need 4 memory ICs to get the bandwidth needed and consider the SDRAM IC sizes these days you might end up with quite a lot of memory anyway. So I think the sample memory size specification in a cost reduced design would be more about marketing and positioning the device in the overall product portfolio offered.

It seems the new DS4000E doesn't have much savings in the ADC performance area as if it supports 2 GS/s at the same time on all channels then the ADC capability and memory bandwidth needed would be similar to regular DS4000.

So who knows, maybe the E models are just the same hardware.

And if anyone notices errors in my calculations let me know.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: dr.diesel on June 12, 2016, 11:21:50 pm
Do we know how much cheaper it even is?  TEq mentions it above, but it's not yet on their website.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: H.O on June 13, 2016, 03:23:42 am
Prices are listed on the Emona website (http://www.emona.com.au/ds4000/) and according to them, as I wrote earlier, you pay >80% of the price of the "standard" version (comparing the 100MHz models).
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on June 13, 2016, 04:13:57 am
It doesn't make sense how they decide other pricing.

The Emona site shows a 18.5% (2779/3410) difference in price between DS4014 and DS4014E, but the rigol site shows a 46.2% (12800 CNY/23800 CNY) difference in price.

I don't know why anyone would choose the E model for 18%, but 46% is a different situation...
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: seronday on June 19, 2016, 04:18:27 pm
DS4000 series Option Codes.

I have updated the PDF document in my original post, ( http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg523679/#msg523679 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg523679/#msg523679) ) ,
to include the option selection codes for LIN and 1553B decode.

Also included are two possible future options,  Power Analysis and I2S decode.
The Power Analysis has been listed for some time, but the I2S decode is relatively recent.
The original un-documented "MA" option has become the 1553B decode option.
These codes have been tested with FW ver 00.02.03.00.03.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: 3lite on June 28, 2016, 11:19:39 pm
Hey guys

Recently I did purchase MS4014 and it's giving me a strange noise sound depending on the time-base. I mean it's a sound as if each time it refreshes the screen with given time-base it "beeps":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qzSxqZdEgM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qzSxqZdEgM)

You might want to turn up the volume since the fan sound is a bit louder.

Shortly after I did receive it I did update it to DS4000 Firmware_00.02.03.00.03. Now I cannot recall whether it was like that before the firmware update.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on June 29, 2016, 03:17:46 am
My 2011 DS4014 does that too, as does the DS4k in one of the youtube review videos. General consensus is that it's due to periodic trends in current consumption over the trigger cycle causing audible coil whine with the fundamental at the trigger frequency. Change the timebase, change the trigger frequency. As far as quirks go it's mostly harmless. At least next to other DS4k quirks like janky serial decode.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: 3lite on June 29, 2016, 04:46:45 am
Thanks :) That's actually kind of a relief to hear since I was worried that it might be damaged, but you are right - it's definitely related to trigger. It's not that audible, but it wasn't there within DS2000 series which I did use before this one. It's kind of sad that they didn't fix it since 2011.

Anyway, I did check the scope itself and it's functioning properly. I suppose I can live with that.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on June 29, 2016, 08:10:06 am
I could not hear that sound, but maybe my laptop speakers don't have enough power :)

Anyhow, it's a remarkable that this issue is present on the high-end DS4000 series (overlooked?) and not on the low-end DS1000Z and DS2000A series (better design?)

So, whether it is present on all of their DS4000 scopes or not, and whether it is not annoying or just slightly annoying, it looks like a design issue!

But then again, the noisy fan as such is a design issue as well.

Anyhow, if they can make it work on the low-end series, they should be able to make it work on the high-end series. That is, the sound issue, which was reported in the thread here.

Courtesy of consistent design practices among the different design teams!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mrpackethead on June 29, 2016, 07:08:15 pm
Hi, just before i jump in and buy one, whats the status on hacking an entry level 4000 >
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on June 29, 2016, 10:14:56 pm
Hacking is a go (500MHz, serial), but be warned: serial decode still has major bugs after all these years, and it's still done in software. Right now the big problem is that serial decode vanishes if you scale or shift the waveform (trigger still works though). A year ago the problem was that decode didn't work in segmented memory. Make sure the scope still makes sense to you with that caveat. When you include the price of a Saleae to compensate, the sticker price of a DS4k starts getting awfully close to that of an Agilent DSOX2014A + serial decode upgrade.

IMO the Rigol+Saleae still makes good sense -- more memory, more waveform/s, more bandwidth if you hack it, more decodes and more memory in the Saleae. But it's not the no-brainer of a $400 DS1054 vs a $1.5k Tek.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on June 30, 2016, 02:23:02 am
Hacking is a go (500MHz, serial), but be warned: serial decode still has major bugs after all these years, and it's still done in software. Right now the big problem is that serial decode vanishes if you scale or shift the waveform (trigger still works though). A year ago the problem was that decode didn't work in segmented memory. Make sure the scope still makes sense to you with that caveat. When you include the price of a Saleae to compensate, the sticker price of a DS4k starts getting awfully close to that of an Agilent DSOX2014A + serial decode upgrade.

IMO the Rigol+Saleae still makes good sense -- more memory, more waveform/s, more bandwidth if you hack it, more decodes and more memory in the Saleae. But it's not the no-brainer of a $400 DS1054 vs a $1.5k Tek.
If you are looking for a brand new oscilloscope, if two channels are sufficient for you (especially if you plan to purchase a logic analyzer) and you are located in North America, Rigol's clearance bin (http://www.rigolna.com/clearance/) has a good deal on a DS4012 - I bought my DS4014 there.

However, at the US$2k+ price level I agree with jjoonathan: the decision starts to become a bit more blurry. More so if you don't mind a used oscilloscope: depending on your location you may be tempted by a few used offers on eBay.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Someone on June 30, 2016, 07:38:45 am
Hacking is a go (500MHz, serial), but be warned: serial decode still has major bugs after all these years, and it's still done in software. Right now the big problem is that serial decode vanishes if you scale or shift the waveform (trigger still works though). A year ago the problem was that decode didn't work in segmented memory. Make sure the scope still makes sense to you with that caveat. When you include the price of a Saleae to compensate, the sticker price of a DS4k starts getting awfully close to that of an Agilent DSOX2014A + serial decode upgrade.

IMO the Rigol+Saleae still makes good sense -- more memory, more waveform/s, more bandwidth if you hack it, more decodes and more memory in the Saleae. But it's not the no-brainer of a $400 DS1054 vs a $1.5k Tek.
Except other than at the extreme top end (10ns/div and faster when the synthetic 50,000 wfm/s limit is applied) and while only running a single channel the Agilent/Keysight 2000 still has a faster update rate, with dual channels or vectors the gap widens more as the Rigol slows down, 99% of use cases the Rigol update rate will be much slower by factors of x3, x10 or more. There are marketing specs which use corner cases to sell products, and then things like "the feel" of a responsive hardware driven capture system, compared to the Rigol display stuttering or failing to respond to knobs.

The longer memory of the Rigol products is their real selling point, its horses for courses.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on June 30, 2016, 09:25:44 am
I'd be willing to believe it, the Keysights at work all have butter-smooth UI responsiveness while my Rigol DS4k doesn't. They're 1M wfm/s devices but regardless it shows that Keysight cares about UX more than Rigol. I mostly chalked up the UX difference to slow UI compositing or poorly optimized configuration routines rather than a wfm/s curve with a "hand crafted" maximum (EDIT: the waveform moves smoothly on the display, it's the 0V marker that's janky). Any chance you remember where the wfm/s tables live?

The Rigol has 5 hefty Virtex 5s, so they're not cutting corners on processing power, but that obviously doesn't prevent bottlenecking in the firmware or CPU.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Someone on June 30, 2016, 12:42:33 pm
Just running through the numbers:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg364748/#msg364748 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg364748/#msg364748)
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064)
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-7885EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-7885EN.pdf)

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/?action=dlattach;attach=236795;image)
And picking peak rates regardless of settings we can build the graph, noting that the additional memory depth of the DS4000 is slowing its updates at the lower timebases, but even when its capturing the same memory depths as the Agilent scopes it can't keep up. The DS2000 was set manually to minimum memory to get its peak rates, they drop as the memory is increased and similarly fall behind the Agilent scopes when set for the same memory depths, but you can always pick some area where each of the products offers some specific value, whats important depends on the application.

As far as I know the update rate at these high speeds is limited by memory bandwidth to the display buffer, whether that is synthetically limited or due to disabling memory on the 2000 X in part binning is unknown.

I've seen DS4000 units out in the field from before they were released, and right up to now. Usability I feel they're slower and harder to use than the benchmark Tektronix competitors which themselves are "adequate".
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on June 30, 2016, 01:46:28 pm
Thanks for the graphs, much easier to read than tables!

Rigol wins on memory depth and hacked bandwidth, Keysight wins on decode and responsiveness (not just wfm/s, the differences in UI responsiveness are honestly more pronounced than the waveforms themselves, which are "pretty good" on both in my book, though that graph by Someone is telling). As for price, that's primarily a function of how the planets are aligning on ebay at the moment. If I had to buy right now I'd probably go for the 200MHz MSOX2024A for $1700. Six months ago I picked up my DS4014 for $1500. No regrets, but things might be different if I didn't already own a Saleae.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TheSteve on June 30, 2016, 02:34:19 pm
Hmm, how about a DSOX3014A for 1700 from Keysight? Easy to enable everything for the most part. If you wait for Keysight to list one on ebay you can get a deal.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mrpackethead on June 30, 2016, 05:47:17 pm
Hmm, how about a DSOX3014A for 1700 from Keysight? Easy to enable everything for the most part. If you wait for Keysight to list one on ebay you can get a deal.

100Mhz is'nt enough bw for me.. I need to do ethernet eye diagrams.. so minium 200Mhz. ideally more.


Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TheSteve on July 01, 2016, 02:47:07 am
Hmm, how about a DSOX3014A for 1700 from Keysight? Easy to enable everything for the most part. If you wait for Keysight to list one on ebay you can get a deal.

100Mhz is'nt enough bw for me.. I need to do ethernet eye diagrams.. so minium 200Mhz. ideally more.

If you were to enable all of the software options you'd also get a bandwidth increase to 200 MHz.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on July 01, 2016, 08:32:50 am
Because Real Men only need one and a half harmonic  ::)

Seriously, though, it sounds like the DS4k is the appropriate choice here. 500MHz gets you 4+ harmonics rather than 1+ and deep memory isn't going to hurt for looking at packets and/or sticking them in segmented memory.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mrpackethead on July 01, 2016, 10:48:58 am
and for this particular job, you can even get around having to have a really expensive diff probe.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TheSteve on July 01, 2016, 02:26:58 pm
Because Real Men only need one and a half harmonic  ::)

Seriously, though, it sounds like the DS4k is the appropriate choice here. 500MHz gets you 4+ harmonics rather than 1+ and deep memory isn't going to hurt for looking at packets and/or sticking them in segmented memory.

I wouldn't argue at all. My post was more suggesting that if someone did consider the Keysight DSOX2xxx series over the Rigol they should seriously consider the DSOX3xxx instead as they can be had for very nice pricing with some patience/effort.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Omikron on July 16, 2016, 04:21:54 am
Here's my silly "upgrade" to my MSO4014, inspired by another thread...

(http://hackerdepot.com/mages/rigolknobs1.jpg)

And if you can't tell what's different...

(http://hackerdepot.com/mages/rigolknobs2.jpg)

 ;D
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on July 16, 2016, 05:11:00 am
Sweeet overmoulded knobs you got there  O0

Now where'd you get them?  ^-^
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Gen2ux on July 17, 2016, 02:50:23 am
Very nice!  I may have to do the same to mine.  I'll ask too, where did you get the knobs?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 17, 2016, 10:17:18 pm
Really nice "Pimp Your Scope" knobs! :)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: voltsandjolts on July 18, 2016, 04:21:30 am
Here's my silly "upgrade" to my MSO4014, inspired by another thread...

 ;D

I think there is an Agilent MSOX at your work which now has Rigol knobs on it!  >:D
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Andrew8086 on August 02, 2016, 09:44:20 pm
After playing with lots of license keys I would like to run a 'factory reset' to clear all the key leftovers.

I'm followingg the instructions provided by RIGOL:

1) Power cycle the instrument
2) During the boot sequence, quickly and repeatedly press the 6th grey colored
button located in the quick measurements area on the left side of the instrument ...

Sadly I seem not to be able to perform said factory reset, whatever I do the scope always boots normally.

Could someone who accomplished this task provide some timing instructions, e.g.

- after pressing the power button when to start mashing the key #6
- what key #6 'press frequency' is required
- how long after switching on (i.e. during the boot sequnce) does one have to mash the key
- is there an indication that the reset command has been accepted so you don't have to wait for the scope to completely boot

Any hints and tricks and help highly appreciated!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Sal Ammoniac on August 03, 2016, 03:15:58 am
Thank you for the closeup picture of the FPGA. Looks like they are using the larger FFG676 package with more IO.

So it would be this one for $287.50 each
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG676C/122-1559-ND/1768319 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xilinx-inc/XC5VLX30-1FFG676C/122-1559-ND/1768319)

At DesignCon about two years ago the Rigol rep told me that the company was hard at work designing ASICs to replace the FPGAs in many of their scopes. If this is true, then there would be a considerable cost savings over using several Virtex-5 FPGAs in each scope.

Anyone know if any of the more recent models have gone from FPGAs to ASICs yet?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on August 03, 2016, 03:53:15 am
Andrew - a reset using the front panel keys only resets the current configuration stored in FRAM.  To remove keys you have to use the SCPI command to uninstall them.  Do some searching for scpi uninstall here and you should be able to find it.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Andrew8086 on August 03, 2016, 11:02:25 am
Andrew - a reset using the front panel keys only resets the current configuration stored in FRAM.  To remove keys you have to use the SCPI command to uninstall them.  Do some searching for scpi uninstall here and you should be able to find it.

Yes, thank you - no problem with license installing / uninstalling via SCPI commands + Telnet. Actually, after testing lots of keys I'd just like to do some housekeeping, a factory reset seems to clean up some internal history buffer stuff: 

I got curious so I tried all the codes for the second position (Rx39), below are the results. Also noticed in the key entry options setup page that the 0, 1, I, and O keys are missing, so I wasn't able to test those combinations. Another interesting thing I found was that after I entered in 32 keys the system wouldn't let me enter in anymore, when I pressed the apply button noting happened. I tried uninstalling the keys but that still wouldn't let me enter more keys, I ended up having to do a factory reset before it would start accepting more keys.

So, from someone who's been there before: Any (timing, sequence, whatever) tips on how to get the scope to accept the reset? I think I'm beginning to wear down this #6 key with my futile attempts.
 
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on September 05, 2016, 08:51:48 am
DS4000-related repair story here: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/rigol-ds4000-rail-to-rail-noise-repaired/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/rigol-ds4000-rail-to-rail-noise-repaired/)

I guess it's confirmed, the ADCs are ADC08D1000 clones... with one minor, err, "enhancement"  ::)
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: NorthGuy on December 04, 2016, 05:36:34 am
The Emona site shows a 18.5% (2779/3410) difference in price between DS4014 and DS4014E ...

I don't know why anyone would choose the E model for 18% ...

Perhaps DS4014E has the same hardware as DS4014 (extra memory and 4Gs/s sample rate removed in software) and can be re-flashed with DS4014 firmware. Then 18% off looks like a good deal.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on December 04, 2016, 12:57:57 pm
I wouldn't bet on it. The DS4000 uses expensive chips, and halving sample rate + waveform rate could save them significant BOM cost. My money would be on finding the same board and layout in the DS4000E but with two ADCs and two Virtex 5s missing.

DS4000:
4x ADC08D1000 (2GS*4 or 4GS*2): $1360 on mouser, $800 on taobao
5x XC5VLX30-1FFG324C: $1300 on digikey
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: NorthGuy on December 04, 2016, 01:25:19 pm
I wouldn't bet on it. The DS4000 uses expensive chips, and halving sample rate + waveform rate could save them significant BOM cost. My money would be on finding the same board and layout in the DS4000E but with two ADCs and two Virtex 5s missing.

DS4000:
4x ADC08D1000 (2GS*4 or 4GS*2): $1360 on mouser, $800 on taobao
5x XC5VLX30-1FFG324C: $1300 on digikey

You still need 4 ADCs (2GS*4) for DS4000E and probably you cannot remove FPGAs without major firmware rework.

Based on what people find in their scopes, Rigol prints lots of boards which are all the same (e.g. LA components are found in DS (not only MSO) models, all models have the same front ends even though the bandwidth is different etc.). This way they don't need to predict which model will sell better, minimize waste and reduce repair costs.

Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on December 04, 2016, 01:32:04 pm
Wow, looks like you're right, it *is* fully 2GS*4. Well... in that case, I can't wait to see a 4000E teardown  >:D
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: NorthGuy on December 10, 2016, 05:56:13 am
On the other hand, if you figure the price of probes (by Rigol's list prices), DS4014E is actually more expensive than DS4014.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on December 10, 2016, 06:13:35 am
I ended up selling the four RP3500A probes that came with my DS4014 for around $100 each, reducing the cost of my DS4014 by $400.  I didn't like the readout pin that scratches the crap out of the scope anyway.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Trev4G on December 10, 2016, 07:24:26 am
I ended up selling the four RP3500A probes that came with my DS4014 for around $100 each, reducing the cost of my DS4014 by $400.  I didn't like the readout pin that scratches the crap out of the scope anyway.
Wow $100 each! I always thought the price was set to make it look as though you were getting a valuable freebie with a scope. They are a very basic probe and in the case of mine poorly made.

In the body at the scope end the co-ax centre core is terminated in a soldered joint. But in mine the instead of trimming the wire at the joint a length trailed into the body of the probe. Result all my probes failed when the wire shorted on earthed metal. While it was easy to repair once I found the problem it shouldn't happen on an economy probe let alone an overpriced one!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: alank2 on December 11, 2016, 12:12:41 am
I should mention it took over a year to sell them all, but eventually they did all sell.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 24, 2017, 12:12:31 am
Can the Rigol MSO4014 be upgraded to a Rigol MSO4054 without opening up the scope? (Riglol method)

Or does one have to open up the scope and do a memory dump with JTAG, as is required with the
MSO1000Z? (Rigol Bildschirmkopie method)

Which of both tools works on the MSO4000 series? Riglol without opening up the scope or Bildschirmkopie with opening up the scope?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on January 24, 2017, 12:25:00 am
Riglol still works without opening the scope, at least for the DS/MSO4000 series. I don't know that we have confirmation for the -E models.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 24, 2017, 01:35:12 am
What type of activities are done in hardware in the DS/MSO4000 series?

Is it only the Waveform rendering on the screen and the Pass-Fail mask testing?

Obviously serial protocol decoding is done in software, based on the videos on YouTube.
I assume the same counts for the triggering in the logic analyzer.

Why doesn't Rigol synthesize their C code with the serial protocol decoding routines into the FPGA hardware through High-Level Synthesis tools? This certainly is not rocket science, and there probably is plenty of space left in the beefy FPGA.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on January 24, 2017, 05:17:40 am
Mask testing is done in SW too, unfortunately. They've got a surprisingly nice UI for doing it on segmented memory, but still, SW.

Why not HW decodes+mask+etc? Because it would take significant investment when they've already stopped development and written off the DS4000 and DS6000 series years ago. They keep them around to get rid of old stock and maintain credibility ("time-tested expertise in the 500MHz and 1GHz brackets" or somesuch), maybe get a few bucks from the local defense market, but they're clearly focusing their dev resources on the next generation. Whether that means ASICs (per the DesignCon rumors), mobile GPUs for dirt cheap number crunching, or both, I don't know, but they saw the writing on the wall for the "COTS FPGA + COTS ADC" architecture and reacted appropriately. Good on them! Can't wait to see what comes out next :)

EDIT: or maybe the next step is Zync, like we see in GW instek. All this about Rigol's future plans is pure speculation. What's not speculation is the fact that DS4k and DS6k are old designs which have been treated like evolutionary dead ends for years.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 24, 2017, 06:05:03 am
Maybe we will see a new product announcement soon! Exciting times!
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: NorthGuy on January 24, 2017, 07:11:37 am
What type of activities are done in hardware in the DS/MSO4000 series?

I assume the same counts for the triggering in the logic analyzer.

I think triggering is analog and is done in hardware. They have huge ASICs on the front end and they manage to produce "trigger out" almost immediately after the trigger occurs.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TurboTom on January 24, 2017, 09:39:39 am

I think triggering is analog and is done in hardware. They have huge ASICs on the front end and they manage to produce "trigger out" almost immediately after the trigger occurs.

And may I add that there's virtually no jitter in the 27ns Trigger event -> Trig Out delay. For a comparison of some Rigol Scopes regarding this subject, you may like to have a look here: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1068070/#msg1068070 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1068070/#msg1068070)

All this is a strong indication for a hardware trigger. It's quite interesting that even the more complex trigger schemes have a similarly short propagation delay to trigger out with the same small jitter. Actually, I'm quite amazed about the performance of the '4000 series regarding this detail.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jjoonathan on January 24, 2017, 09:40:42 am
I can confirm that the trigger circuit is analog: no jitter between it and the triggering signal and it works up to 1.1GHz on a 500MHz (nameplate 100MHz) scope. Not bad!

OTOH the trigger doesn't always work on low amplitude signals and instead of using a TDC for sub-clock trigger alignment Rigol has chosen to perform a secondary digital trigger to align the waveform on the X axis. This wouldn't be so bad if they did it 100% of the time, but they don't perform the secondary alignment step when you're scrolling the trigger delay, so at low ns/div settings the waveform hops left and right by ~2ns every time you touch the knob. Yuck. Probably my #1 remaining pet peeve with the instrument.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 24, 2017, 10:18:10 am
I meant triggering in the logic analyzer on a pattern. Pattern triggering in the LA must be done in software, as it creates more flexibility. Or would they really cover all these combinations in hardware?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: TurboTom on January 27, 2017, 09:27:22 am
I meant triggering in the logic analyzer on a pattern. Pattern triggering in the LA must be done in software, as it creates more flexibility. Or would they really cover all these combinations in hardware?

Well, I just performed a qick-and-dirty test with my MSO4014(+) as follows: Square wave signal from generator fed to D0 of the digital (MSO) inputs. At the connection point of the digital probe, I attached a standard probe of cannel1 of a DS2072A(+). Channel2 probe of this scope was connected to the Trig Out of the MSO4014. So the delay of the measurement system should be compensated fairly well. The (measured) trigger delay would just consist of the delay of the digital (MSO) probe assembly and the internal trigger processing time of the scope.

What I found: Rising edge trigger on MSO channel D0: 45.5ns with no observable jitter
Pattern trigger on 8-bit word D0~D7: 41.8 ~ 49.2ns, depending on trigger configuration of relevant line (D0) (Level H slowest, falling edge fastest) and again no observable jitter at each of the configurations.

I guess this pretty much indicates that the pattern trigger is done in hardware as well, considering that the delay also includes several nanoseconds propagation delay of the digital probe assembly (about 80cm long, unknown impedance coax wire).

I hope this answers your question  :)

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 27, 2017, 12:15:46 pm
What if the pattern does not consist of a basic bit mask pattern, but combines patterns with logic expressions? Or is that not possible in the LA from Rigol?
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: BenYL on April 13, 2017, 02:59:56 am
The Rigol DS4024 seems like a great deal with the current promotion because it is $2783 for four channels, 350MHz, and digital decoding. Can someone summarize the things about this oscilloscope that are not good? The datasheet and their video are very convincing, certainly a big step up from the Tek TDS2024C at about the same price. But I don't want any surprises.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on April 13, 2017, 04:43:48 am
At this price level there are many options, especially if you consider used equipment on eBay.

For example, this DSOX3024T (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSOX3024T-Oscilloscope-4-channel-200MHz-Agilent-/182509933980?hash=item2a7e70959c:g:E28AAOSwB-1Y3gDY) is slightly cheaper and, if you don't have a personal issue with unlocking features using codes available for free ("hacking"), it is an excellent deal.
Another ones are this DSOX4022A (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSOX4022A-Oscilloscope-2-channel-200-MHz-Agilent-/172534398305?hash=item282bd9fd61), this DSO7012B (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSO7012B-Oscilloscope-100-MHz-2-Channel-Agilent-DSO7012B-/172287836031?hash=item281d27bf7f) or this Wavejet 332A (http://www.ebay.com/itm/LeCroy-WaveJet-332A-Digital-Oscilloscope-350MHz-1GS-s-2ch-500kpts-ch-WARRANTY-/161712149257?hash=item25a6cb9309:g:mZkAAOSwBLlVXj35), but only if you don't really need four channels (I am not sure if they can be "hacked").

Apart from these choices, I have a DS4014 and I am very pleased with it. I describe my experience here (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds4000-series-vs-keysight-3000t-better-value/msg705427/#msg705427) but I don't do much decoding and therefore don't run into the bugs and lags reported by others. As a four channel scope with very deep memory and good math capabilities (apart from FFT) it works pretty well for my needs. I like the large screen and the menu on its both sides makes the interface cleaner for my taste. The independent channel controls are nice as well as the jog dial to navigate the memory (there is no search capability). I replaced the selection encoder with one with detents to make menu selections easier (earlier in this thread (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg951428/#msg951428)), but that uncovers a firmware glitch reported later in the the linked discussion. I also had to add heatsinks everywhere on the oscilloscope to tame the heat - that was pretty piss poor on Rigol. An annoyance for me is that waveforms are frozen while I change the GND level of a channel - I was told that Keysights and Lecroys don't do that, but I can't confirm. When compared to a Tek TDS3014 that I use at work I can tell the Rigol is light-years more functional and practical.

All in all, check this other thread (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds4000-series-owners-please-tell-me-everything-you-hate-about-em'/) for additional comments from other users. Keep in mind that some bugs were fixed in more recent firmware releases.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: hendorog on April 13, 2017, 06:32:16 am
Hard to add anything to the great comment by rsjsouza.

For me the main limitations are:
* Weak FFT - slow, low number of points, poor UI, text same colour as trace so hard to read. I still find it useful.
* ADC chips running hot. I intend to add heatsinks as well, just haven't got around to it...

Not sure I'd bother reading that other thread though, like many of the Rigol DS4k threads it escalates rapidly :)
Worth noting that the strongest critic in that thread doesn't own one and only used one briefly.

When I got mine it was a no-brainer as there was nothing else available in 4 channels with the bandwidth and features for the price (via hackability)
There are more options now so it's worth having a good look around.


Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Trev4G on April 13, 2017, 08:56:30 am
While I would agree with many of the comments already made. My issues come as limitations and irritations( I can live with).

Limitations

See above plus:
The PC software. I am staggered that Rigol can get away with something this mind blowingly awful. My first Rigol, an entry level DS1022CD, had Ultravision s/w while this was pretty limited I assumed my MSO4014 would come with something better. How wrong could I have been. It was so much worse!

Irritations

1) The power switch on the front panel does not switch the power off it just shuts down the software. This leaves the MSO taking enough power to make it warm to the touch. The true power switch is on the back inconvieniently situated under the mains input socket. In practical terms this is unusable so you are left with the wall socket.
2) Fan noise. As usual on a Rigol.
3) No documentation for the pins on the probe sockets.

However, overall I am very happy with my MSO and it certainly does everything I want and has enough features in reserve to meet my likely future requirements.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: kcbrown on April 13, 2017, 03:27:18 pm
Irritations

...
2) Fan noise. As usual on a Rigol.

While the fan noise can be an irritation, at least Rigol uses very good fans (assuming they're consistent on this).  The DS1054Z apparently comes with the Sunon ME50151V3-000C-A99, which uses magnetic levitation bearings.  These will have a longer life than anything else, all else being equal.

In contrast, my Siglent SDG1025 comes with a crap Chinese fan that started to make groaning noises less than 2 years into its life.  I can't be bothered to send the unit in for fan replacement since they're likely to simply replace it with another crap fan that will exhibit similar behavior after the warranty has expired, and the shipping costs would exceed the price of a good replacement fan.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on April 13, 2017, 10:38:40 pm
The PC software. I am staggered that Rigol can get away with something this mind blowingly awful. My first Rigol, an entry level DS1022CD, had Ultravision s/w while this was pretty limited I assumed my MSO4014 would come with something better. How wrong could I have been. It was so much worse!
I agree; the software is not great. The user marmad was creating a software to interact with the DS4000 series. I can't find the thread (nor used it)

1) The power switch on the front panel does not switch the power off it just shuts down the software. This leaves the MSO taking enough power to make it warm to the touch. The true power switch is on the back inconvieniently situated under the mains input socket. In practical terms this is unusable so you are left with the wall socket.
I don't quite like this as well, but unfortunately these days many different brands and models of test gear are doing the same.

Irritations

...
2) Fan noise. As usual on a Rigol.

While the fan noise can be an irritation, at least Rigol uses very good fans (assuming they're consistent on this).  The DS1054Z apparently comes with the Sunon ME50151V3-000C-A99, which uses magnetic levitation bearings.  These will have a longer life than anything else, all else being equal.

In contrast, my Siglent SDG1025 comes with a crap Chinese fan that started to make groaning noises less than 2 years into its life.  I can't be bothered to send the unit in for fan replacement since they're likely to simply replace it with another crap fan that will exhibit similar behavior after the warranty has expired, and the shipping costs would exceed the price of a good replacement fan.
The noise itself does not bother me, but the DS4014 has a Delta fan that has survived well the test of time. I replaced it with a slightly more silent fan (also from Delta) and added rubber bumpers to reduce vibration.

Regardless, the largest part of the noise comes from the air flowing inside the case and not from the fan itself - it is hard to change this.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: Trev4G on April 14, 2017, 12:50:02 am
I agree; the software is not great. The user marmad was creating a software to interact with the DS4000 series. I can't find the thread (nor used it)

The Marmad software has two active versions RUU2.03 which runs with the 4000 series but only supports 2 analogue i/p channels. RUU3.06a the alpha test version which I believe supports 4 analogue channels but NOT the 4000 series. Like a number of people I hope that at some point he will either continue development or put his work into the public domain. However, as RUU is supplied free of charge the decision rests with Marmad and I can only applaud him for the work done to date. Personally I think Rigol should give him a large amount of cash in exchange for RUU and complete the work.

The noise itself does not bother me, but the DS4014 has a Delta fan that has survived well the test of time. I replaced it with a slightly more silent fan (also from Delta) and added rubber bumpers to reduce vibration.

Regardless, the largest part of the noise comes from the air flowing inside the case and not from the fan itself - it is hard to change this.
The fans in my Rigols have proved completely reliable.  I will wait until the warranty is up before going inside. In the past I have found that a small movement of a fan inside an instrument can have a dramatic effect on noise level. Its all about reducing turbulence. I don't know if the same trick can be pulled on the Rigol but I may give it a go.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: rsjsouza on April 14, 2017, 03:42:29 am

The noise itself does not bother me, but the DS4014 has a Delta fan that has survived well the test of time. I replaced it with a slightly more silent fan (also from Delta) and added rubber bumpers to reduce vibration.

Regardless, the largest part of the noise comes from the air flowing inside the case and not from the fan itself - it is hard to change this.
The fans in my Rigols have proved completely reliable.  I will wait until the warranty is up before going inside. In the past I have found that a small movement of a fan inside an instrument can have a dramatic effect on noise level. Its all about reducing turbulence. I don't know if the same trick can be pulled on the Rigol but I may give it a go.
After I wrote my post earlier this morning I thought the exact same thing you mentioned above; when I replaced the fan I also added quite a number of heatsinks to the oscilloscope (absolutely necessary in my case), which surely increased the turbulence by quite a factor. Despite this, the noise level decreased in a small part due to the fan and (I believe) in greater part because of the rubber bumpers.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: jp_gorman on September 11, 2017, 12:26:34 am
Hi Folks,

I have a Rigol MSO4014 which I have not needed to get working on the LAN before, but recently started to see if I could get it working.
I'm having trouble getting DHCP or static IP working from one room via a powerline LAN plug switch upstairs to my internet downstairs (linked to another powerline LAN plug). It says fail on dhcp and reverts to an APIPA (APIPA allocates IP addresses in the private range 169.254.0.1 to 169.254.255.254) - This obviously does not work with my local subnet (192.168.0.0)

Even on static IP the MSO says LAN connected and all good, the green solid and amber lights flash on the network card, but a port scan on the static ip (when testing static ip) on the right subnet show it completely unreachable, as is a ping to that address!

The same cable from my upstairs powerplug router, connected to my laptop works fine with dhcp and static ip from my macbook pro.

Note: direct ethernet connection to my macbook pro from Rigol does work eventually wiah a fixed IP and a lot of plugging and upplugging and "apply" button pressing on the network util screen (really unpretictable, i.e. even whe the scope says the LAN s detected, the macbook pro cannot ping the Rigol).

Just wondered if anyone came across similar issues ?

Thanks - J.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: mhuth on December 08, 2017, 04:38:59 am
Mine worked on DHCP right out of the box.  The main disappointment is that in this day and age, it is only a 100Mbs connection.  Taking files and printing screen is actually faster over the USB port.  Saving a full waveform file from multiple channels is time for a dinner break.  And the UltraSigma software seems to crash while updating the full memory.
Title: Re: Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...
Post by: nctnico on December 09, 2017, 10:55:17 am
The slow speed is probably due to the lack of processing power inside the scope than the limit in the bandwidth. Just check how much data is transferred in how much time and you can calculate the actual transfer speed.