Author Topic: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions  (Read 35119 times)

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Online ebastler

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2018, 11:16:12 am »
Since all are speculating whatever they want to prove their point, i decided to look up some info..

Thanks 2N3055, great post. Could you please add a link to your source(s) of information?
Thank you!
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2018, 11:26:59 am »
Since all are speculating whatever they want to prove their point, i decided to look up some info..

Thanks 2N3055, great post. Could you please add a link to your source(s) of information?
Thank you!

"RIGOL Product Training MSO/DS7000Series  2018.4.20"

It is a PDF "MSODS7000.pdf".  Found it on Internet.

It has plenty of other info inside.
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2018, 11:43:28 am »
I seem to get feeling that Rigol might have to end up with a 50% off sale on the new 7000 series straight up if they really want some market share.
That photo of the front end really screams low end r&d and manufacture. A low end, front end, even the heatsink is mounted skew if!
I cant wait for the review! The do it all ASIC needs to be sensational for this 8 bit scope to warrant the sort of dosh Rigol are hoping to be paid for these new scopes.

The analog front end is a custom ASIC too. Seems they have developed three chips. The Phoenix chip, a 4CH ADC, and the analog front end.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #78 on: August 08, 2018, 11:47:48 am »
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #79 on: August 08, 2018, 11:53:52 am »
Oh FFS, how many variations on TE front panel layout can their possibly be ?
Just because a manufacturer chooses to do a similar design to another you call that copying ?  :-//

Siglent copied a Keysight design button for button and menu item for menu item.
You know that very well, you sell them.


« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 12:11:37 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #80 on: August 08, 2018, 11:56:55 am »
We've got two threads on the same 7000 topic, haven't we?

..The Xilinx Zync FPGA should have no problem dealing with 10GByte/s to/from the DDR memory so my guess is that all the oscilloscope functions are done inside the FPGA..
We need a video with the teardown to get a better understanding.
10GB/s could be a challenge even for an 866MHz dual core inside the Zynq.
My guess is the Zynq is for UI and LCD video, and there is a second Asic dealing with sample's memory and some dsp upon it.
PS: an "ideal arch" could be

4x FE_ASICs ----> 1x MEM_ASIC_WITH_16_16bit_RAM channels ----> Zynq_512MB_LCD_UI_HW_Interfaces

There is FE ASIC --> 4CH ADC ASIC --> acquisition ASIC --> Spartan 6 --> Zynq.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 12:10:19 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2018, 12:00:17 pm »
3. They developed fast 10GS/sec 8 bit converter with fast buffers at front (to ease driving of A/D) , A/D, and even some DSP on chip (probably some data shaping, filtering, corrections.....details are fuzzy)

It's a 4CH 2.5GS/s ADC. Combined they give 10GS/s.

Quote
The architecture is completed by SPU (sampling processing unit) and WPU (waveform plotting unit). Those seem to be inside Zync. Or maybe SPU is separate chip. We'll see when Dave opens it.

It's a huge chip with massive heatsink. I assume it's another ASIC. But could be an FPGA. the heatsink is glued on and I don't want to try and remove it.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 12:09:16 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2018, 12:48:56 pm »
We've got two threads on the same 7000 topic, haven't we?

..The Xilinx Zync FPGA should have no problem dealing with 10GByte/s to/from the DDR memory so my guess is that all the oscilloscope functions are done inside the FPGA..
We need a video with the teardown to get a better understanding.
10GB/s could be a challenge even for an 866MHz dual core inside the Zynq.
No, it isn't because the memory isn't handled by the processors but the FPGA fabric. Depending on the Zync model the memory bandwidth can be in the 32GByte/s ballpark.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2018, 01:07:04 pm »
It's a 4CH 2.5GS/s ADC. Combined they give 10GS/s.
You are correct, but it is a standard practice to call it like that. If single chip has several interleaved A/D converters and built in interleave mode, it is classified as fastest speed it can do. One chip can do 10 GS/sec.  Same as 1GS/sec A/D in Rigol DS1000Z is really 4x250MS/sec).

Quote
It's a huge chip with massive heatsink. I assume it's another ASIC. But could be an FPGA. the heatsink is glued on and I don't want to try and remove it.
Thanks a lot for that pic Dave!!. Of course you won't remove it if there is risk of damage. But important info  is that there is additional beefy chip in addition to Zync that does SPU  work.

Regards,
Sinisa
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2018, 01:13:00 pm »

Edit:
Is this ASIC for reduce analog front end cost or make front end better.

Could be both, but we can't really know if it made it better or not. The main reason for the ASIC was most likely to be able to get the 600k wfm/s, everything else was secondary.

I did not mean "Ankaa" Dso signal processing ASIC.

I mean front end chip - what ever it is, ASIC or what ever, they name it "ß Phoenix" and it have nothing to do with wfm/s speed.
Why I wonder this front end. 4mV/div highest true sensitivity, even with some BW reject on in Dave's video it looks bit noisy when 1mV/div is in use with some BW filter on. Also 17pF input capacitance in modern 500MHz scope looks bit weird and depending how 50ohm is made it may disturb also it.

----
But what is nice, they have 2.5GSa/s (4ch on)  in 500MHz scope so Rigol do not perhaps anymore fall in wrong made Sin(x)/x trap. 
Also they have implemented now some kind waveform history buffer so that perhaps also many more users start understand how powerful tool it is, as R&S and Siglent some users may know, specially if Rigol launch it later with some bottom price units.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 07:08:59 pm by rf-loop »
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Online iMo

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2018, 02:22:39 pm »
..
There is FE ASIC --> 4CH ADC ASIC --> acquisition ASIC --> Spartan 6 --> Zynq.
Spartan6 is EOL, isn't it?..
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #86 on: August 08, 2018, 02:39:15 pm »
It's a 4CH 2.5GS/s ADC. Combined they give 10GS/s.
You are correct, but it is a standard practice to call it like that. If single chip has several interleaved A/D converters and built in interleave mode, it is classified as fastest speed it can do. One chip can do 10 GS/sec.  Same as 1GS/sec A/D in Rigol DS1000Z is really 4x250MS/sec).

They might have used IP from SP Devices in Linköping, Sweden :)
https://www.spdevices.com/technology/silicon-and-fpga-ip

 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #87 on: August 08, 2018, 03:47:42 pm »
It's a 4CH 2.5GS/s ADC. Combined they give 10GS/s.
You are correct, but it is a standard practice to call it like that. If single chip has several interleaved A/D converters and built in interleave mode, it is classified as fastest speed it can do. One chip can do 10 GS/sec.  Same as 1GS/sec A/D in Rigol DS1000Z is really 4x250MS/sec).

They might have used IP from SP Devices in Linköping, Sweden :)
https://www.spdevices.com/technology/silicon-and-fpga-ip

They could have.. In which case it wouldn't be bad.. That's Teledyne corp. They know their stuff.

Or they could have licensed something else.
Or developed their own.
There is a strong push in China to develop self sufficiency in as many fields as possible. 
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #88 on: August 08, 2018, 05:55:13 pm »
As I said before, it remains to see how successful they were in achieving targets.
But to belittle huge effort it took to develop all this, it's just bad form.
These guys did huge techonological leap compared to what was state of the art for Chinese companies, only year ago.
As a customer I don't care about whether it is a big achievement or not. For about the same money I can buy 10 bit with true 500uV/div and similar memory depths from R&S. Having a minimum sensitivity of 4mV probably means having lots of noise. With the information available it seems Rigol is where Keysight was 15 years ago. The way I see it Rigol really needs to drop the price otherwise this MSO7000 won't sell at all.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 06:45:40 pm by nctnico »
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #89 on: August 08, 2018, 06:48:22 pm »
Whatever you may think about these companies, their missteps, goofy front panel designs (I still can't believe the DS7000's is even worse than the DS1054Z), etc., all this test equipment competition heating up makes for a great time to be in electronics.

Thanks for the interior sneak peek pics, Dave. Looking forward to the review. :-+
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #90 on: August 08, 2018, 07:41:12 pm »
As I said before, it remains to see how successful they were in achieving targets.
But to belittle huge effort it took to develop all this, it's just bad form.
These guys did huge techonological leap compared to what was state of the art for Chinese companies, only year ago.
As a customer I don't care about whether it is a big achievement or not. For about the same money I can buy 10 bit with true 500uV/div and similar memory depths from R&S. With the information available it seems Rigol is where Keysight was 15 years ago. The way I see it Rigol really needs to drop the price otherwise this MSO7000 won't sell at all.

As a customer, I didn't run and buy one. I DO expect teething problems. But not because they are "stupid chinese", but because it is something so new it has to have problems.  R&S you mentioned came out with a new platform at beginning of the last year. It still has many bugs, albeit they are less and less serious with time. Most stable are Keysight 3000 series, but just because they are 10 years old....

And R&S has 10 bit and lower noise, higher sensitivity inputs.. But has it's own shortcomings and much lower update rate.  Actually, all the arguments that you mentioned are valid for Keysight x3000T/4000 series. It has same same spec front end.
Except basic DS7000 have 25x more acquisition memory.
So if you need 10 bit, high sensitivity (power measurements for instance) you are better off with R&S 3000 than with Keysight 3000. Or DS7000.

But compared to dsox3000T, hardware capabilities wise, DS7000 makes Megazoom4 look , well, retarded.  4MS memory is just funny. And I know 1 milion wfms/sec is more than 600000 but it is not relevant. But 600000 vs 60000 (R&S) is something you might notice. Or not.

DS7000 series is like something between Keysight 3000 and 4000, because of screen in between.  Hardware specs are obviously inspired by fast waveform rate of dsox3000 and also by users criticising it for very small memory. They also implemented Tektronix measurement logic, with full buffer measurements (3000T decimates. although quite well), histograms, large 1Mpoint FFT that has better interface (you can set start and stop, or center span frequency). Measurements are architecturally better than dsox3000, and on some measurement it shows. Not to mention severe aliasing that happens on Keysight as soon as you slow down timebase a little.. On certain timebases and setting you will have better results with DS1000Z than with 10 times more expensive Keysight 3000T
It has two channels of AWG (like KS 4000) , which has also one feature I like : while generating signal you can mix in and add separately controlled noise .
It has segmented memory (for free not a 1000€ option like R&S), search...

It has potential.  If there will be problems they will be because it seems to be complex and sophisticated instrument. Those are hard to debug and if there are problems they will be because of that. 

And pricing is quite funny. Lower freq (100, 200) are good price. With full app bundle you get it for much less than big names. but jump from 200MHz to 350 MHz is allmost 3000€ more... 200 to 500 MHZ is 5000€ more.  I would sell for 1000€ per 100MHz, and not sell 100MHz version at all.  200MHz -2000 €, 350 MHz -3500 €, 500 MHz -5000€. MSO for a bit more, let's say 800€. And all options included.  That would sell like cakes. Off course, if it works well.

But if it doesn't sell, they will adjust prices. Or maybe it will prove to be good enough to make problems for big guys.
DS4000 was good basic scope. Fast but only basic features. This one is not like that. It has all the good stuff from Keysight 3000 (fast) and Tektronix 3000 (better measurements) AWG from Keysight 4000, hardware decoding....... If it all works well, it is going to be interesting.
And then either premium manufacturers have to actually pump out really better products and keep price ranges, or drop prices.
In which case 2nd tier manufacturers have to do same... Good for consumers..

We will see who blinks first...

And, again, all that will be more interesting if someone unlocks ds7000. Or if Rigol gets smart and just sels fully unlocked scopes in few frequencies and with/without MSO. Or maybe Siglent does that, so Rigol will follow.



 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #91 on: August 08, 2018, 08:12:21 pm »
But compared to dsox3000T, hardware capabilities wise, DS7000 makes Megazoom4 look , well, retarded.  4MS memory is just funny. And I know 1 milion wfms/sec is more than 600000 but it is not relevant. But 600000 vs 60000 (R&S) is something you might notice. Or not.
Waveforms/s is the least interesting specification on an oscilloscope. A nice number for marketing but anything over 1000waveforms/s will do just fine.
Quote
They also implemented Tektronix measurement logic, with full buffer measurements (3000T decimates. although quite well), histograms, large 1Mpoint FFT that has better interface (you can set start and stop, or center span frequency). Measurements are architecturally better than dsox3000, and on some measurement it shows
Full memory measurements are OK but not a show stopper because it affects only a few corner cases. What is more important is math on full memory but I don't see any mention on how the math channels are implemented on the DS7000. It that is done on the full memory depth then the DS7000 definitely scores bonus points because that is a more rare but very usefull feature especially when combined with signal filtering.

By the way, I'm not sold on the bandwidth/centre/span FFT controls. The FFT still is highly dependant on samplerate and memory depth so having traditional spectrum analyser-esque controls isn't making life easier.

Regarding the A-brands reacting: I have to see it first because I've been reading that for years already. So far none of the B-brands have caused any A-brand to change their pricing strategy or change their products.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 08:41:31 pm by nctnico »
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #92 on: August 08, 2018, 09:08:44 pm »
Regarding the MSO7000 series - I'm not sure where it leaves the DS4000 ones, which are similarly priced, but with which you now get less value for money. Maybe they'll get their price adjusted soon?

Wouldn't surprise me if they cleared those out in a super sale.

That could be interesting. Upgrade time?
If you are in the US, Rigol's clearance bin has some interesting offers: years ago I bought my DS4014 that also came with four brand new RP3500A probes (a bit lower price, but still). If you consider how Riglol still works, that becomes a good bargain for a full features 500MHz 4ch scope.

And yes, the oscilloscope is quite stable and functional.

Regarding the A-brands reacting: I have to see it first because I've been reading that for years already. So far none of the B-brands have caused any A-brand to change their pricing strategy or change their products.
Nico, Keysight released an entire line of basic scopes to get a bite of the $600 market, despite their initial spiel of competing with Tek's TBS1000. The reason I believe they were after the market price and not only education is due to the fact the Tek is so basic that Keysight didn't need to release such feature-rich product to compete with it.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #93 on: August 08, 2018, 09:21:58 pm »
Regarding the A-brands reacting: I have to see it first because I've been reading that for years already. So far none of the B-brands have caused any A-brand to change their pricing strategy or change their products.
Nico, Keysight released an entire line of basic scopes to get a bite of the $600 market, despite their initial spiel of competing with Tek's TBS1000. The reason I believe they were after the market price and not only education is due to the fact the Tek is so basic that Keysight didn't need to release such feature-rich product to compete with it.
But neither Keysight or Tektronix is really competing on features / price compared to the Asian brands and that is what my statement is about. Heck, the A-brands don't even care about Siglent - none of them is comparing any of their products against the ones from Siglent. Also the prices of higher end products didn't drop.

Every time an Asian brand introduces a new oscilloscope people start to speculate on the A-brands getting into trouble. So far it ain't happening because people keep buying the A-brands. For a good reason ofcourse: better firmware and support.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 09:26:04 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #94 on: August 08, 2018, 10:12:42 pm »
But neither Keysight or Tektronix is really competing on features / price compared to the Asian brands and that is what my statement is about. Heck, the A-brands don't even care about Siglent - none of them is comparing any of their products against the ones from Siglent. Also the prices of higher end products didn't drop.

Every time an Asian brand introduces a new oscilloscope people start to speculate on the A-brands getting into trouble. So far it ain't happening because people keep buying the A-brands. For a good reason ofcourse: better firmware and support.

Entry level market is ruled by Rigol, Siglent and occasional GW Instek. A-brands equipment in that class is more expensive and inferior..
And have it's share of problems, with "better firmware" that is intentionally crippled not to interfere with market positioning of their more expensive scopes.

DS4000 had good memory depth, but bad decoders, no search etc etc. It
DS6000 series also didn't have anything of advanced functions, just more bandwidth and bigger screen.
I didn't buy DS4000 because it didn't have functions I needed. It's quality is very good. It's just too simple.
Like upgrading DS1000Z to 500MHz and faster sampling.
Yes, bandwith is useful, but it couldn't compare to KS DSOX3000, TEK MDO3000, not even Hameg HMO3000, not to mention new R&S RTM3000

Rigol nor Siglent had anything that has better or in class specs like Keysight 3000 and 4000 series, or any scope in that class from A-brands.

Today DS/MSO7000 series has advanced features and is in their class. On paper, in some areas it is class leading.
How well it will work remains to be seen.
Also Siglent is making their first entry in this market too.
Also, how well it will work, we'll have yet to see.

If they do prove to be dependable and reasonably bug free, they WILL rattle the segment.
 

Offline Old Printer

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #95 on: August 08, 2018, 10:49:34 pm »
I took ntcnico's cue and looked at Rigol's clearance. They have a few 1054Z at $279 which at first hit me as the lowest price I had ever seen for that scope, but they cut the usual 3 year warente to 90 days. Tequipment usually sells B grade and with the EEVblog discount can be down close to $300, but you get the full factory warente. I don't think the extra $30 or so is worth loosing that 3 years.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2018, 11:38:24 pm »
Also Siglent is making their first entry in this market too.
Yeah well, sort of.
SDS3000 = WS3000 and have been around for a few years.
Recently updated to X models of 500 MHz and 1 GHz and doubled memory depth to 20 MPts/ch.

Quote
Also, how well it will work, we'll have yet to see.
If they do prove to be dependable and reasonably bug free, they WILL rattle the segment.
This new SDS5000X (500 MHz & 1 GHz) is listed as having storage depth up to 250Mpts/ch as standard so will bump heads hard against the new Rigol offering.

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #97 on: August 09, 2018, 05:37:50 am »
If they do prove to be dependable and reasonably bug free, they WILL rattle the segment.
I've been reading that for several years and it didn't happen. Repeating it doesn't make it true. The problem is that specs on paper appear to be different in reality.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 05:41:57 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jadew

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #98 on: August 09, 2018, 06:23:55 am »
If they do prove to be dependable and reasonably bug free, they WILL rattle the segment.
I've been reading that for several years and it didn't happen. Repeating it doesn't make it true. The problem is that specs on paper appear to be different in reality.

I don't know why you think that, because I've heard a completely different story. When I bought my 1000Z (as soon as it became available), the distributor told me they have a lot of big customers, like Analog Devices, which had a building a couple of blocks down and apparently bought plenty of Rigol scopes back then (I assume from the 4000 or the 6000 series).

Probably a lot of smaller companies are going for them too, so I'm sure they've made a considerable dent in the leading manufacturer's profits already.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions
« Reply #99 on: August 09, 2018, 07:03:49 am »
If they do prove to be dependable and reasonably bug free, they WILL rattle the segment.
I've been reading that for several years and it didn't happen. Repeating it doesn't make it true. The problem is that specs on paper appear to be different in reality.

You are the one repeating non correct statements ad nauseum wishing them to be true.  Among other equipment, I have several pieces of Rigol equipment. They all perform better than specifications. They are simple, and don't have advanced capabilities. But what they have, works well. I had problem with screen on DP831, I reported it, and was sent replacement, brand new within three days, before I sent old one back. One phone call and two e-mails was all it was. There is a forum topic on Keysight E36300 series PSU, and recall. They shipped PSU with several hardware flaws, that shouldn't have passed design phase. When Rigol had DP832  regulator overheating problem, it was chinese shit. When Keysight does worse it has good support.

People like to extrapolate current quality by historic experiences. Keysight, while still being good company, is nowhere near old legendary HP in anything.
It is a different world, and USA companies nowadays are all run by same company principles. Some of them are better at making you think they care. They are literally teaching Machiavelli in management classes.
Milk the brand, as high profits as possible. That means no fundamental research, no product development unless absolutely necessary.  Reuse and recycle as many old parts as you can and make only cosmetic changes. If you develop something new make it cheap , make it look fancy, and pay more for front panel design than for base board. Looks and fame sells.

And as long people buy that crap, they will do it like that.

In meantime, Chinese are pumping out products that work better by the day. With 50% profit margin, not 5000%. Which means people can afford it.
In private (hobby) environment they already rule. In small company segment also, in last few years.

I next few years they will rule 3000 class too If A brands don't take the seriously. Which is the bread and butter of scope manufacturers.
Tektronix, and Keysight and LeCroy will rule 20, 40, 110 GHz scope market. Chinese don't have that. Yet.
 
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