Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions

[EEVblog]

Unboxing & first Impressions of the new Rigol MSO7000 mixed signal oscilloscope.
Note, this is NOT a review, it is a single take, unedited, unprepared unboxing and just dicking around with it. If you do not like this style of video do not watch it.

https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/7000/

[cpuerror]

So about $12,000 and the front panel looks like it was designed as a high school project? Weird graphics and a terrible selection of fonts.

People might say it doesn't matter, but if you are working a large shop and go for the Rigol vs one of the more established brands, and this thing shows up, it's going to look bad on you for spending money on a Chinese scope that they couldn't even get the front panel right on. That is going to drive down sales to the industrial customers Rigol wants to target.

[ataradov]

terrible selection of fonts.

Yeah, those serifed I and II bugged me the whole video. How hard it is to hire not even a designer, but a normal human from the street to tell them that this looks terrible and cheap?

Rigols sort of worth the money on the low end, but if you are paying good money for the instrument, just go for a decent brand.

[1anX]

Good stuff Dave, looking forward to your follow up teardown and eventual review!

I agree, serial decoding off the 4 channels should be included with the scope and why not start it at 200MHz if they want it to stand out from the crowd and grab some serious market share.

[LapTop006]

Per the datasheet only the MSO version has the siggen ports *available*, and they're still an option after the US$1,300 price bump for the digital channels.

[EEVblog]

I agree, serial decoding off the 4 channels should be included with the scope and why not start it at 200MHz if they want it to stand out from the crowd and grab some serious market share.

200MHz minimum would be a nice differentiator.

[JPortici]

what the hell is wrong with the panel?

"a lot of wankery on that" 

200MHz minimum would be a nice differentiator.

I personally don't care. When I ask for quotes I keep telling that i don't care for bandwidth. Let it be a 10 MHz scope but i still want
Advanced math, math on math, istograms, uncommon decodes (uncommon for cheap scopes)
Not surprisingly the seller will happily throw more bandwidth for free but won't add the real goodies which are why i would choose scope X instead of Y.

that is a nice differntiator, it's also part of the reasons i like my picoscopes a lot.

If i only want bandwidth i'll go grab an old scope from ebay for one tenth of the price.

[LapTop006]

Not surprisingly the seller will happily throw more bandwidth for free but won't add the real goodies which are why i would choose scope X instead of Y.

Yep. I'm looking at a new scope at the moment, and one requirement is autodetecting 10x probes. Not a hard feature, but for whatever reason means you need to go for midrange devices.

[hscade]

is it possible to use a mouse on that scope?

In case of design I'm just speechless that the chinese guys didn't learn anything in the past. Every year and for every device people / customers complain about the frontpanel design  (hint: DP832 review ) .


The computing power of that scope could also be better ...

[tautech]

Not surprisingly the seller will happily throw more bandwidth for free but won't add the real goodies which are why i would choose scope X instead of Y.

Yep. I'm looking at a new scope at the moment, and one requirement is autodetecting 10x probes. Not a hard feature, but for whatever reason means you need to go for midrange devices.

What would you call mid range ?
SDS2000X models can auto detect and are much cheaper than this new Rigol.

[bugi]

terrible selection of fonts.

... How hard it is to hire not even a designer, but a normal human from the street to tell them that this looks terrible and cheap?

A "normal human from the street" might actually like that kind of looks. I know at least one educated and smart adult person who actually prefers looks meant for kids and teens, to the point that e.g. for entertainment devices he may choose technically inferior products just because of those looks. Though, I think he would not do such choice if it was about "business" or other serious usage, like these scopes are. But a random person from the street might not be smart enough to understand the priority of usability over looks.

So, it could still be better to hire a suitable designer, and of such sub-type which is trained for (industrial) usability, instead of "style". At least one major IDE software project went baaaadly downhill because they had gotten a "graphic designer" of the kind who designs marketing web pages and such, instead of one experienced in usability and how it actually works. The results sure looked fancy, but was horrible to use.

[Circlotron]

Rigol's next scope with next gen pushbuttons, currently on the drawing board.

[SeanB]

3 USB ports, they finally realised the 4 port hub they use to interface the front USB and the touch screen has those 2 spare ports on them essentially free, and then added the 2 sockets. Wonder the power delivery ability, and if they put any sort of overcurrent protection on them as well.

Bet the reason they do not see the USB drive Dave plugged in is because it is too large, and they are using an older Linux kernel that does not support over 8G drives natively. Way too common, and really no reason not to have the large drive support enabled in new designs, and not only limited to test equipment either, very common on printers as well.

[Hydrawerk]

The three USBs on front panel are nice, but what can you use them for? Does the scope support a mouse and a keyboard?

[fonograph]

11k $ for Rigol

[mikeselectricstuff]

11k $ for Rigol

That's a significant point. Though Rigol have been around a while, and are probably the best of the Chinese brands I do wonder who is going to spend that kind of money on a scope that's not from one of the long-established companies with local offices, service centres etc.
At the low end these things matter a lot less, but once you start talking more serious investment, it becomes about more then just the product and feature set.
Time will tell....
 

[iMo]

I do not think the design "annoyances" of Far East industrial products are matter of an "lack of professionalism".
It is about their "perception of beauty". It is a fully different culture in this regard, when comparing to Western one, indeed.
We say their products look like "Christmas Trees" (lot of different lights, colors, rounded shapes, bubbles, fonts, crazy shaped buttons, shiny surfaces, mirrors..). They simply like that..
Look at their cars, for example, and compare their design, for example, with a BMW.
The same with o'scopes, it seems.

PS: see below Western vs. Far East perception of Beauty (imo)

[joseph nicholas]

In western cultures the news media and leadership use the term "stealing" intellectual properties.  The commies call it "sharing".  Anyone with a bit of socialism in their political thinking can clearly see the philosophical bind here.

[Hydron]

The DS1000Z series certainly didn't win any beauty awards, but at the same time weren't _too_ bad. Rigol has gone backwards a fair bit with this one, which is a shame given the market segment they are aiming at and the trivial amount of work required to make it not look so amateur hour.

[Fungus]

11k $ for Rigol

Or... 1.5k plus a copy of RIGLOL.

Now who's laughing?

[fonograph]

imo naming the Rigol DMM "eastern beaty" 

Fungus,the base price is 2.7k.At that price it become ok value I guess after full unlock hack but still,11k for Rigol,that makes me lol irl everytime I think about it.I cant decide what is funnier,the price or front pannel design.

[ebastler]

it is a single take, unedited, unprepared unboxing and just dicking around with it. If you do not like this style of video do not watch it.

@Dave: I quite liked the single-take approach, very watchable for my taste. But when you do similar videos going forward, could you improve the audio?

I assume this was simply captured via the in-camera microphone. A lot of volume fluctuations as you were moving around, but even when you sat still, the voice sounded thinner than usual. A clip-on mic, or even a stationary one properly directed at the speaker, should work better.

[nctnico]

What strikes me as odd is that Rigol choose to put a row of buttons next to the screen (and Dave is using them!). What is the purpose of the touch screen then? The space for the row of buttons could have been used to un-clutter the space for the other buttons.

[2N3055]

What strikes me as odd is that Rigol choose to put a row of buttons next to the screen (and Dave is using them!). What is the purpose of the touch screen then? The space for the row of buttons could have been used to un-clutter the space for the other buttons.

Well I always wondered same thing for Keysight touch screen scopes (3000T/4000/6000/7000). I guess they try to strike some balance between old school "I like buttons and real scope look and I don't need no stinkin' touch screen" way of thinking and new touch screen "you don't need buttons at all if you have touch screen"  way of thinking....

I actually think LeCroy manages to strike good balance..

[Tom45]

PS: see below Western vs. Far East perception of Beauty (imo)

A little more relevant comparison of current generations:

[bugi]

What strikes me as odd is that Rigol choose to put a row of buttons next to the screen (and Dave is using them!). What is the purpose of the touch screen then? The space for the row of buttons could have been used to un-clutter the space for the other buttons.

Gloves and touchscreens don't always work together well. (And I do not mean thick winter stuff.) Also, it is easier to clean up a dirty button than a dirty screen, should one not be wearing the gloves and has extra dirty fingers (e.g. working on a piece of electronics that contains lubricants/chemicals/accumulated dirt over years). And, in certain cases good buttons can work faster than a typical touchscreen (i.e. higher rate of actions e.g. when going through a list of selections); no idea if such case would apply or be useful on this Rigol, though.

[Tom45]

Reading through the Rigol 7000 datasheet I see that the built in digital voltmeter only has 3 bit resolution and the "High Precision" frequency counter is only 6 bits. 

[rsjsouza]

Excellent video, Dave. Thanks!

A few years ago Dave reviewed a GW Instek oscilloscope that, just like this one, was functionally sound and capable but people focused on its looks. As I said then: if buttons, fonts and looks are the major criticism, then Rigol should be quite proud with their product. I see a lot of details and button/menu organization that are quite similar to my DS4000, thus it is possible they want to maintain this familiarity intact (and yes, I also find a bit odd on my DS4014 the trigger "Mode" have a specialized button).

It seemed a quite capable device with reasonable lag (keysight's are another league, but they carry other limitations by using their old ASIC) but there were not many details on this quick first impressions to make a definitive call on that. Rigol is most probably placing this product to replace both the DS4000 and DS6000 lines.

The touch interface seemed quite responsive and reasonably thought (the virtual keypad saves a ton of front fascia realstate, although it is not as nice as a real one) and I see that the buttons surrounding the screen are a great welcome addition if I am not willing to use the screen. Unfortunately Dave forgot to test the touch trigger capability. For a first implementation, that is not bad.

I see a fail in acknowledging the USB pendrive. It seems that it is running some sort of Windows judging by the C:\ drive selection, thus I don't know how the pendrive was formatted or if it is a true OS or hardware fail.

Basic memory is quite similar to the DS4000, which comes with 140Mpts default, as well as the probe auto-detection and the digital interface connector - a plus in my opinion.The true test would be to use all that with decoders, where the DS4000 fails to do well on the larger time/div settings or delayed trigger. Another excellent test would be specialized triggers (which are limited on the DS4000) and pattern searchability (non-existing on DS4000). However, the flexibility of the LA interface and its digital and analog arrangements seems well put together.

Other than that, it is always a matter of price versus performance. A hefty $2.7k for a 100MHz version seems somewhat high (similar to what a DS4014 cost at release time), but with option bundling that may start to make sense when compared to other manufacturers. Obviously that, if the Riglol works, then this becomes unbeatable.

[Hydrawerk]

My Agilent DSOX2002A made in 2012 works with a 32GB Patriot Supersonic USB drive.

[Hydrawerk]

Siglent can make a clean, non-confusing front panel.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/?action=dlattach;attach=448582;image
Picture by Pinkus.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg1588084/#msg1588084

[Wolfgang]

Well, to me it looks like a logic extrapolation of RIGOL designs from the past.

- its not a mass market entry "toy" like the enormously successful DS1054 series
- they want to play with the big boys now
- they now have a price range that is not too much below Keysight, Tek or Rohde Equipment (you can get quite some discounts there, RIGOL does not rebate to the same extent)
- they try to provide the features their competetitors have, but the do it the first time, and you can see that
- ergonomics has never been the top priority of RIGOL. Design as such is probably done by amateurs or not considered important
- Uglyness is a matter of taste, unfortunately. They can always claim that as long functionality is OK its irrelevant. On the other hand, its clear that an uglier design does not cost more than a good one, and a good one probably sells  more units.
- The scope is brand new, and it contains a lot of new functionality. You can expect that bugs are common, and it will take about a year to fix the
most prominent ones. RIGOL has deteriorated regarding bug fixing and problem removal, probably due to lack of resources and too much market success.
- They copied their pricing policy from other vendors - base unit plus a lot of options packaged in a way so you have to buy several (e.g., look at the protocols), not just one covering most users needs.

My advice:
- Dont buy it now.
- Wait for full reviews.
- Read forums for all kinds of problems, updates and fixes.
- Always compare prices on what you have to pay including options and vendor rebates.
- You max expect that they want to server price-insensitive brand-loyal people first. Only buy if you are desparate or dumb.
- Wait at least for the first price correction round (just think of their electronic loads)
- Test before you buy !!!
- Also test their support during the test period before you buy !!!
- If you can, test two instruments from different vendors side by side.





- 

[Circlotron]

What I see as part of the problem with the front panel design is the line borders around groups of controls. Functionally at least, they need to be simple rectangles, perhaps with rounded corners as per older HP stuff. What we have though is a wiggly squiggle for a line border, and there is no real coherence from one to the other. It is art for art’s sake, not as an aid to function. It might be compared to serifs on lettering that is meant to guide the eye along the line of text from one letter to the next. In this case though the wiggly line just confuses the eye and does not achieve its purpose of grouping a family of controls very well. The mishmash of different shaped buttons doesn’t help either.

[Andrey_irk]

Reading through the Rigol 7000 datasheet I see that the built in digital voltmeter only has 3 bit resolution and the "High Precision" frequency counter is only 6 bits. 

They are probably talking about digits and not bits. As the ADC has 8 bits - it gives us 256 counts or 3 (2.5, if you prefer) digits. So obviously, it is a mistake.
Although I don't understand the usefulness of such a "voltmeter". It would've made more sense if they implemented a hardware DC voltmeter with at least 2000 counts so you won't have to use your DMM unless you really need to measure something accurately.
I saw the same thing on R&S 2000 series scopes, but it was a bit more useful as they had 10bit ADCs.

[Wolfgang]

Google translate is overused, especially in China. My native tongue is German, and the quality of manuals in German translated from Chinese is a permanent source of unintended humour, all much worse than English. This goes for all chinese manufacturers.

I propose to open an "idiotic manual thread" with a hitparade for the best intellectual failures.

[EEVblog]

Bet the reason they do not see the USB drive Dave plugged in is because it is too large, and they are using an older Linux kernel that does not support over 8G drives natively.

Nope, it's a 2GB stick

[tautech]

Bet the reason they do not see the USB drive Dave plugged in is because it is too large, and they are using an older Linux kernel that does not support over 8G drives natively.

Nope, it's a 2GB stick

FAT32 ?

[EEVblog]

- Test before you buy !!!
- If you can, test two instruments from different vendors side by side.

Yes.
If you are paying this sort of money, get a loaner unit from the local rep for a few days and try it.

[xrunner]

Siglent can make a clean, non-confusing front panel.

It's a lot better, and they don't try to use two shades of BLUE for the scope inputs/traces like Rigol does - I hate that - it's the same colors as a DS1054Z. 

[EEVblog]

Bet the reason they do not see the USB drive Dave plugged in is because it is too large, and they are using an older Linux kernel that does not support over 8G drives natively.

Nope, it's a 2GB stick

FAT32 ?

Turns out it was NTFS and it's a 4GB stick.
But formatting with FAT32, FAT, or exFAT does not work, not recognised at all.

[EEVblog]

A 1GB FAT stick worked, but shows up as two drives!
The Quick button auto saved to the stick instead of internal which is nice.
I like how the screen shot shows the version and build, but no capture date

[EEVblog]

What strikes me as odd is that Rigol choose to put a row of buttons next to the screen (and Dave is using them!). What is the purpose of the touch screen then?

Plenty of uses - keypad, zone trigger, pan and zoom, moving and closing floating windows

[EEVblog]

it is a single take, unedited, unprepared unboxing and just dicking around with it. If you do not like this style of video do not watch it.

@Dave: I quite liked the single-take approach, very watchable for my taste. But when you do similar videos going forward, could you improve the audio?

I assume this was simply captured via the in-camera microphone.
[/quoute]

External Rode mic mounted on cam, auto gain. Yes, not the best for a lot of walking around.
I think the low cut filter accidentally on.
Lapel mics are not the savior here, they also have directionality issues as the head moves.

[bitseeker]

I like how the screen shot shows the version and build, but no capture date

That supposed build date sure looks like the screen capture date and time to me, relative to the clock in the lower-right corner.

[tautech]

I like how the screen shot shows the version and build, but no capture date

That supposed build date sure looks like the screen capture date and time to me, relative to the clock in the lower-right corner.

Yeah somethings not right there, sure the USB drive looks like it's partitioned but unless you open one there's no idea if a capture has been made.
No size for any of the drives ?   

[Dubbie]

Siglent can make a clean, non-confusing front panel.

Yes, the Siglent one looks like it was designed by a grown up.

The Rigol one looks like the winner of a "Design your own scope" contest for 8 year olds.

[Bud]

The Rigol one looks like the winner of a "Design your own scope" contest for 8 year olds.

I am sure same applies to their schematic design.

[Hydron]

What strikes me as odd is that Rigol choose to put a row of buttons next to the screen (and Dave is using them!). What is the purpose of the touch screen then?

Plenty of uses - keypad, zone trigger, pan and zoom, moving and closing floating windows

I can confirm that an onscreen keypad/keyboard via touchscreen is super handy (from my experience with the RTB2k). Saves huge amounts of time for both things like naming saved data files, and (more importantly) allows for direct numerical entry of things like trigger holdoff, probe attenuation, V/div, horizontal and vertical position etc etc. Even if everything else was button/knob driven it's worth having a touchscreen just for that (though it's usefulness goes far beyond that). I find using the touchscreen for menus etc rather than soft buttons (none on the RTB2k) is fine, so personally I'd get rid of them and spend the space on more screen area, though they certainly don't hurt (you're always going to have some duplication of functions on something like a touchscreen scope).

[nctnico]

It is also interesting to see Rigol still hasn't hired someone to get the English texts right (in a way they are clear and understandable).

[BravoV]

11k $ for Rigol

That's a significant point. Though Rigol have been around a while, and are probably the best of the Chinese brands I do wonder who is going to spend that kind of money on a scope that's not from one of the long-established companies with local offices, service centres etc.
At the low end these things matter a lot less, but once you start talking more serious investment, it becomes about more then just the product and feature set.
Time will tell....

Really curious at what price level that it will make users at this market segment starting to consider it ?

I guess Rigol ain't stupid, as they can go gung-ho sell at cost or even loss just to penetrate certain segment.

[iMo]

Based on my own experience with largest int IT vendors the number of people (the actual "doers") is rather small with product development. My bet the 7000 series has been developed/created by 2-3 guys max. They spent 4-8 years with it. All inclusive - box design, electronics/Asic/pcb, sw, testing, documentation. The other xx thousands employees are usually with production and sales/marketing.

[rsjsouza]

Based on my own experience with largest int IT vendors the number of people (the actual "doers") is rather small with product development. My bet the 7000 series has been developed/created by 2-3 guys max. They spent 4-8 years with it. All inclusive - box design, electronics/Asic/pcb, sw, testing, documentation. The other xx thousands employees are usually with production and sales/marketing.

My experience differs: to me this would be true with either an update or a new design but using subsystems of a previous one. In this case, the new ASIC probably demands more people to properly design, test/characterize and document it for the end product design folks. One thing I agree: it is not an army of people but maybe 8~10 for the ASIC and maybe the same amount for the product (including documentation, graphical design and marketing).

Regarding the design, the 60 degree angles of the front fascia lines seem to form a brand identity as they match the hexagonal shapes of the vents in the back, the front oscilloscope cover and even some shapes present on the DS1000Z/DS2000 series.

[iMo]

The actual teardown would be nice to see. The "Asic" development must not be such a big deal. The most hw stuff comes from previous versions. They just pushed the old verilogs/vhdl they used with those EOL Xilinx'es (discontinued 10y back??) they are/were using in their gear into the new "Asic" (I would expect a lot of marketing with the "Asic", btw). 1 manyear of a comfortable work max (a conservative estimate).

[bitseeker]

So, with regard to the rectangular divisions on this scope, apart from it being odd and irritating, do you find it to be a bit of a cheat? You only get 10 horizontal divisions on the 7000's big, wide screen. However, less expensive Rigol scopes have 12 divisions and Siglent have 14. Does the 7000 give you more resolution per division?

[rsjsouza]

So, with regard to the rectangular divisions on this scope, apart from it being odd and irritating, do you find it to be a bit of a cheat? You only get 10 horizontal divisions on the 7000's big, wide screen. However, less expensive Rigol scopes have 12 divisions and Siglent have 14. Does the 7000 give you more resolution per division?

I agree; both the DS4000 and DS6000 series have 14 division squares on their smaller resolution screens.

[nctnico]

So, with regard to the rectangular divisions on this scope, apart from it being odd and irritating, do you find it to be a bit of a cheat? You only get 10 horizontal divisions on the 7000's big, wide screen. However, less expensive Rigol scopes have 12 divisions and Siglent have 14. Does the 7000 give you more resolution per division?

This is a tough question because there isn't a definitive answer. More horizontal pixels per time unit gives you more signal detail. Less horizontal pixels per time unit gives you more signal. Pick your poision. IMHO it doesn't really matter if the oscilloscope has coarse and fine horizontal control.

[BravoV]

Really curious on the HDMI output at a big monitor.

[Old Printer]

Really curious on the HDMI output at a big monitor.

Same here, though as a beginner hobbyist I am hell and gone from buying a 3K+ scope. Besides a couple old analog Teks all I have at the moment is an Analog Discovery and with 65 year old eyes I really like having a big monitor. I wish there was a $500 range scope with monitor support, even if it were a $200 option.

[BravoV]

Really curious on the HDMI output at a big monitor.

Same here, though as a beginner hobbyist I am hell and gone from buying a 3K+ scope. Besides a couple old analog Teks all I have at the moment is an Analog Discovery and with 65 year old eyes I really like having a big monitor. I wish there was a $500 range scope with monitor support, even if it were a $200 option.

Same interest on using external monitor as my eyes are getting weaker too. Fyi, Owon scopes have monitor output. And the same reason I love my SA setup with an old 4:3 monitor as it fits nicely, as I'm starting to hate those small screens.

[bitseeker]

I'm also curious how they implemented the layout of the external display since the resolution is higher. Could the built-in display just be cropped and the external will provide more divisions?

Looking forward to the review to find out.

[jadew]

Siglent can make a clean, non-confusing front panel.

Siglent can't come up with their own design. They copy from both Keysight and Rigol, nothing to praise there. The one you linked is an imitation of the Keysight design.

Regarding the MSO7000 series - I'm not sure where it leaves the DS4000 ones, which are similarly priced, but with which you now get less value for money. Maybe they'll get their price adjusted soon?

[EEVblog]

Regarding the MSO7000 series - I'm not sure where it leaves the DS4000 ones, which are similarly priced, but with which you now get less value for money. Maybe they'll get their price adjusted soon?

Wouldn't surprise me if they cleared those out in a super sale.

[EEVblog]

The lack of complexity in the new 500MHz front end is amazing. They have a new ASIC there that does almost everything.
No reason they can't put this 500MHz front end in an entry level scope.

[bitseeker]

Regarding the MSO7000 series - I'm not sure where it leaves the DS4000 ones, which are similarly priced, but with which you now get less value for money. Maybe they'll get their price adjusted soon?

Wouldn't surprise me if they cleared those out in a super sale.

That could be interesting. Upgrade time?

[BravoV]

On the ASIC part, just the pure manufacturing excludes R&D cost, is it relatively cheap ?

[EEVblog]

SPOILER ALERT

[bitseeker]

There's a lot of vacant land in that there neighborhood.

And a little heatsink twist for style.

[tautech]

Siglent can make a clean, non-confusing front panel.

Siglent can't come up with their own design. They copy from both Keysight and Rigol, nothing to praise there.

Yeah right ! 
The topic of discussion IS scope front panel design and Siglents SDS2000X is a much better and well though out layout than this new Rigol 7000.

Why ?
Well it would seem Rigol think EE's are left handed.
USB jacks on the left.
Probe Cal left of inputs
Wave gen outputs on the left.

Study the images in reply #29 and have intelligent thoughts of which layout ergonomics might be best to work with.

[1anX]

I seem to get feeling that Rigol might have to end up with a 50% off sale on the new 7000 series straight up if they really want some market share.
That photo of the front end really screams low end r&d and manufacture. A low end, front end, even the heatsink is mounted skew if!
I cant wait for the review! The do it all ASIC needs to be sensational for this 8 bit scope to warrant the sort of dosh Rigol are hoping to be paid for these new scopes.

[jadew]

Siglent can make a clean, non-confusing front panel.

Siglent can't come up with their own design. They copy from both Keysight and Rigol, nothing to praise there.

Yeah right ! 
The topic of discussion IS scope front panel design and Siglents SDS2000X is a much better and well though out layout than this new Rigol 7000.

Why ?
Well it would seem Rigol think EE's are left handed.
USB jacks on the left.
Probe Cal left of inputs
Wave gen outputs on the left.

Study the images in reply #29 and have intelligent thoughts of which layout ergonomics might be best to work with.

I don't see any ergonomics issues there. What I see is a poor imitation of a great design and an original new design that doesn't look half bad and it's in line with their other products.

My initial comment was objecting to giving credit to Siglent for that design, when it's not theirs to begin with. They copied the layout from Keysight and those curved lines and angles from Rigol.

The same can be said about their signal generators, Keysight layout and Rigol look. If they didn't have the logo, you could easily confuse them with a Rigol tool.

[rf-loop]

The lack of complexity in the new 500MHz front end is amazing. They have a new ASIC there that does almost everything.
No reason they can't put this 500MHz front end in an entry level scope.

Is it so that full vertical resolution is only from 4mV/div - 10V/div. 1mV/div and 2mV/div is just zoomed from 4mV/div. (when use 10x probe 40mV/div!)
Also in your first video it looks like 1mV/div you have set some BW filter on... perhaps 20MHz. Is it so?

Is this ASIC for reduce analog front end cost or make front end better.

[jadew]

I seem to get feeling that Rigol might have to end up with a 50% off sale on the new 7000 series straight up if they really want some market share.
That photo of the front end really screams low end r&d and manufacture. A low end, front end, even the heatsink is mounted skew if!
I cant wait for the review! The do it all ASIC needs to be sensational for this 8 bit scope to warrant the sort of dosh Rigol are hoping to be paid for these new scopes.

I assume a lot of the circuitry has been shifted into the ASIC, where components are inherently matched to eachother and everything can be built to much tighter specs.


Edit:

Is this ASIC for reduce analog front end cost or make front end better.

Could be both, but we can't really know if it made it better or not. The main reason for the ASIC was most likely to be able to get the 600k wfm/s, everything else was secondary.


Edit 2:
Now that I think about it, one thing that bothered me about this new scope is its limited bandwidth (only 500 MHz). I was expecting they'd have at least a 1 GHz version (considering the 10 GSa/s), so it's possible the ASIC made things worse and that's all they get with the new frontend.

[nctnico]

Everybody keeps talking about the ASIC but it seems to me it is just a fast ADC with an analog input switch. The Xilinx Zync FPGA should have no problem dealing with 10GByte/s to/from the DDR memory so my guess is that all the oscilloscope functions are done inside the FPGA.

The front-end doesn't seem revolutionairy to me. This is a dual channel 500MHz front end from a Yokogawa scope from (I think) the early 2000's:

[tautech]

Siglent can make a clean, non-confusing front panel.

Siglent can't come up with their own design. They copy from both Keysight and Rigol, nothing to praise there.

Yeah right ! 
The topic of discussion IS scope front panel design and Siglents SDS2000X is a much better and well though out layout than this new Rigol 7000.

Why ?
Well it would seem Rigol think EE's are left handed.
USB jacks on the left.
Probe Cal left of inputs
Wave gen outputs on the left.

Study the images in reply #29 and have intelligent thoughts of which layout ergonomics might be best to work with.

I don't see any ergonomics issues there. What I see is a poor imitation of a great design and an original new design that doesn't look half bad and it's in line with their other products.

My initial comment was objecting to giving credit to Siglent for that design, when it's not theirs to begin with. They copied the layout from Keysight and those curved lines and angles from Rigol.

The same can be said about their signal generators, Keysight layout and Rigol look. If they didn't have the logo, you could easily confuse them with a Rigol tool.

Oh FFS, how many variations on TE front panel layout can their possibly be ?
Just because a manufacturer chooses to do a similar design to another you call that copying ? 
Yes KS in one guise or another have been around forever and have refined the ergonomics over many decades, why, because its right and what the customer wants. Any 'new kid' on the block would be foolish to overlook decades of front panel development that's primarily been done for ease of usage.

Do we go down the path like Fluke has and say it can ONLY be yellow if it's a Fluke ?   

[iMo]

We've got two threads on the same 7000 topic, haven't we?

..The Xilinx Zync FPGA should have no problem dealing with 10GByte/s to/from the DDR memory so my guess is that all the oscilloscope functions are done inside the FPGA..

We need a video with the teardown to get a better understanding.
10GB/s could be a challenge even for an 866MHz dual core inside the Zynq.
My guess is the Zynq is for UI and LCD video, and there is a second Asic dealing with sample's memory and some dsp upon it.
PS: an "ideal arch" could be

4x FE_ASICs ----> 1x MEM_ASIC_WITH_16_16bit_RAM channels ----> Zynq_512MB_LCD_UI_HW_Interfaces

[2N3055]

Amount of unwarranted bitterness in comments is quite amusing..

Since all are speculating whatever they want to prove their point, i decided to look up some info..

It seems Rigol developed 3 custom chips :

1. Active differential probe chip (one that goes inside probe). That is high frequency, analog chip
   Active differential probes in GHz range cannot be discrete design.. This is their attempt to do it right. We will see if they were successful.

2. Scope front end chip. That is the chip that represent integrated input channel (analog part) together with attenuators.
   Similar like above, front end of a scope channel on higher frequencies can benefit from integration.. So far all Chinese scopes were made from off the shelf parts  in discrete SMD. This front end supposedly have capabilities to reach 4GHz. If true, using that chip will make 500 MHz scopes trivial.. You slap that on board and route it to A/D.  Of course, we'll see how successful they were.

3. They developed fast 10GS/sec 8 bit converter with fast buffers at front (to ease driving of A/D) , A/D, and even some DSP on chip (probably some data shaping, filtering, corrections.....details are fuzzy)
 So far all Chinese scopes used off the shelf A/D. Now they have one of their own. Even if it is not perfect, they can tweak it to perfection eventually. But so far, it looks like it's working well. Remains to be seen.

The architecture is completed by SPU (sampling processing unit) and WPU (waveform plotting unit). Those seem to be inside Zync. Or maybe SPU is separate chip. We'll see when Dave opens it.

SPU is quite complex , and has 2560 MB local waveform memory with claimed 32GBps bandwith. It also has Real time Fir filters, Hi res mode, Averaging, Sin(x)/x, interpolation, freq counter, triggering, protocol decoders, measure accelerator, and segmented mode capture all hardware accelerated. 
In WPU and central control unit, FFT and math are running on CPU cores, accelerated by DSP accelerator.

By keeping that part of UltraVision II inside FPGA, they can fix bugs, add functionality and upgrade for new generations of products.
Their own front end and A/D chips will be probably cheaper that what they pay now, so they could use them on lower end.
At one point, when UltraVision II is proven to be functioning well and that they are happy with functionality blocks built in , they might even make an ASIC version of it.

As I said before, it remains to see how successful they were in achieving targets.
But to belittle huge effort it took to develop all this, it's just bad form.
These guys did huge techonological leap compared to what was state of the art for Chinese companies, only year ago.

Capabilites wise, it is better than many scopes out there. And if there are bugs, they will sort them out. You cannot upgrade 4 MS memory to 100MS with firmware update....

I cant wait to see what new Siglent will bring to the table. That will be interesting too.

As for the pricing, market will sort that out. I allready see Tektronix adjusting prices, rest will follow.

And yes, if it happens to be hackable, it will be best selling scope in history....

[ebastler]

Since all are speculating whatever they want to prove their point, i decided to look up some info..

Thanks 2N3055, great post. Could you please add a link to your source(s) of information?
Thank you!

[2N3055]

Since all are speculating whatever they want to prove their point, i decided to look up some info..

Thanks 2N3055, great post. Could you please add a link to your source(s) of information?
Thank you!

"RIGOL Product Training MSO/DS7000Series  2018.4.20"

It is a PDF "MSODS7000.pdf".  Found it on Internet.

It has plenty of other info inside.

[EEVblog]

I seem to get feeling that Rigol might have to end up with a 50% off sale on the new 7000 series straight up if they really want some market share.
That photo of the front end really screams low end r&d and manufacture. A low end, front end, even the heatsink is mounted skew if!
I cant wait for the review! The do it all ASIC needs to be sensational for this 8 bit scope to warrant the sort of dosh Rigol are hoping to be paid for these new scopes.

The analog front end is a custom ASIC too. Seems they have developed three chips. The Phoenix chip, a 4CH ADC, and the analog front end.

[EEVblog]

[EEVblog]

Oh FFS, how many variations on TE front panel layout can their possibly be ?
Just because a manufacturer chooses to do a similar design to another you call that copying ? 

Siglent copied a Keysight design button for button and menu item for menu item.
You know that very well, you sell them.

[EEVblog]

We've got two threads on the same 7000 topic, haven't we?

..The Xilinx Zync FPGA should have no problem dealing with 10GByte/s to/from the DDR memory so my guess is that all the oscilloscope functions are done inside the FPGA..

We need a video with the teardown to get a better understanding.
10GB/s could be a challenge even for an 866MHz dual core inside the Zynq.
My guess is the Zynq is for UI and LCD video, and there is a second Asic dealing with sample's memory and some dsp upon it.
PS: an "ideal arch" could be

4x FE_ASICs ----> 1x MEM_ASIC_WITH_16_16bit_RAM channels ----> Zynq_512MB_LCD_UI_HW_Interfaces

There is FE ASIC --> 4CH ADC ASIC --> acquisition ASIC --> Spartan 6 --> Zynq.

[EEVblog]

3. They developed fast 10GS/sec 8 bit converter with fast buffers at front (to ease driving of A/D) , A/D, and even some DSP on chip (probably some data shaping, filtering, corrections.....details are fuzzy)

It's a 4CH 2.5GS/s ADC. Combined they give 10GS/s.

The architecture is completed by SPU (sampling processing unit) and WPU (waveform plotting unit). Those seem to be inside Zync. Or maybe SPU is separate chip. We'll see when Dave opens it.

It's a huge chip with massive heatsink. I assume it's another ASIC. But could be an FPGA. the heatsink is glued on and I don't want to try and remove it.

[nctnico]

We've got two threads on the same 7000 topic, haven't we?

..The Xilinx Zync FPGA should have no problem dealing with 10GByte/s to/from the DDR memory so my guess is that all the oscilloscope functions are done inside the FPGA..

We need a video with the teardown to get a better understanding.
10GB/s could be a challenge even for an 866MHz dual core inside the Zynq.

No, it isn't because the memory isn't handled by the processors but the FPGA fabric. Depending on the Zync model the memory bandwidth can be in the 32GByte/s ballpark.

[2N3055]

It's a 4CH 2.5GS/s ADC. Combined they give 10GS/s.

You are correct, but it is a standard practice to call it like that. If single chip has several interleaved A/D converters and built in interleave mode, it is classified as fastest speed it can do. One chip can do 10 GS/sec.  Same as 1GS/sec A/D in Rigol DS1000Z is really 4x250MS/sec).

It's a huge chip with massive heatsink. I assume it's another ASIC. But could be an FPGA. the heatsink is glued on and I don't want to try and remove it.

Thanks a lot for that pic Dave!!. Of course you won't remove it if there is risk of damage. But important info  is that there is additional beefy chip in addition to Zync that does SPU  work.

Regards,
Sinisa

[rf-loop]

Edit:

Is this ASIC for reduce analog front end cost or make front end better.

Could be both, but we can't really know if it made it better or not. The main reason for the ASIC was most likely to be able to get the 600k wfm/s, everything else was secondary.

I did not mean "Ankaa" Dso signal processing ASIC.

I mean front end chip - what ever it is, ASIC or what ever, they name it "ß Phoenix" and it have nothing to do with wfm/s speed.
Why I wonder this front end. 4mV/div highest true sensitivity, even with some BW reject on in Dave's video it looks bit noisy when 1mV/div is in use with some BW filter on. Also 17pF input capacitance in modern 500MHz scope looks bit weird and depending how 50ohm is made it may disturb also it.

----
But what is nice, they have 2.5GSa/s (4ch on)  in 500MHz scope so Rigol do not perhaps anymore fall in wrong made Sin(x)/x trap. 
Also they have implemented now some kind waveform history buffer so that perhaps also many more users start understand how powerful tool it is, as R&S and Siglent some users may know, specially if Rigol launch it later with some bottom price units.

[iMo]

..
There is FE ASIC --> 4CH ADC ASIC --> acquisition ASIC --> Spartan 6 --> Zynq.

Spartan6 is EOL, isn't it?..

[pascal_sweden]

It's a 4CH 2.5GS/s ADC. Combined they give 10GS/s.

You are correct, but it is a standard practice to call it like that. If single chip has several interleaved A/D converters and built in interleave mode, it is classified as fastest speed it can do. One chip can do 10 GS/sec.  Same as 1GS/sec A/D in Rigol DS1000Z is really 4x250MS/sec).

They might have used IP from SP Devices in Linköping, Sweden
https://www.spdevices.com/technology/silicon-and-fpga-ip

[2N3055]

It's a 4CH 2.5GS/s ADC. Combined they give 10GS/s.

You are correct, but it is a standard practice to call it like that. If single chip has several interleaved A/D converters and built in interleave mode, it is classified as fastest speed it can do. One chip can do 10 GS/sec.  Same as 1GS/sec A/D in Rigol DS1000Z is really 4x250MS/sec).

They might have used IP from SP Devices in Linköping, Sweden
https://www.spdevices.com/technology/silicon-and-fpga-ip

They could have.. In which case it wouldn't be bad.. That's Teledyne corp. They know their stuff.

Or they could have licensed something else.
Or developed their own.
There is a strong push in China to develop self sufficiency in as many fields as possible. 

[nctnico]

As I said before, it remains to see how successful they were in achieving targets.
But to belittle huge effort it took to develop all this, it's just bad form.
These guys did huge techonological leap compared to what was state of the art for Chinese companies, only year ago.

As a customer I don't care about whether it is a big achievement or not. For about the same money I can buy 10 bit with true 500uV/div and similar memory depths from R&S. Having a minimum sensitivity of 4mV probably means having lots of noise. With the information available it seems Rigol is where Keysight was 15 years ago. The way I see it Rigol really needs to drop the price otherwise this MSO7000 won't sell at all.

[bitseeker]

Whatever you may think about these companies, their missteps, goofy front panel designs (I still can't believe the DS7000's is even worse than the DS1054Z), etc., all this test equipment competition heating up makes for a great time to be in electronics.

Thanks for the interior sneak peek pics, Dave. Looking forward to the review.

[2N3055]

As I said before, it remains to see how successful they were in achieving targets.
But to belittle huge effort it took to develop all this, it's just bad form.
These guys did huge techonological leap compared to what was state of the art for Chinese companies, only year ago.

As a customer I don't care about whether it is a big achievement or not. For about the same money I can buy 10 bit with true 500uV/div and similar memory depths from R&S. With the information available it seems Rigol is where Keysight was 15 years ago. The way I see it Rigol really needs to drop the price otherwise this MSO7000 won't sell at all.

As a customer, I didn't run and buy one. I DO expect teething problems. But not because they are "stupid chinese", but because it is something so new it has to have problems.  R&S you mentioned came out with a new platform at beginning of the last year. It still has many bugs, albeit they are less and less serious with time. Most stable are Keysight 3000 series, but just because they are 10 years old....

And R&S has 10 bit and lower noise, higher sensitivity inputs.. But has it's own shortcomings and much lower update rate.  Actually, all the arguments that you mentioned are valid for Keysight x3000T/4000 series. It has same same spec front end.
Except basic DS7000 have 25x more acquisition memory.
So if you need 10 bit, high sensitivity (power measurements for instance) you are better off with R&S 3000 than with Keysight 3000. Or DS7000.

But compared to dsox3000T, hardware capabilities wise, DS7000 makes Megazoom4 look , well, retarded.  4MS memory is just funny. And I know 1 milion wfms/sec is more than 600000 but it is not relevant. But 600000 vs 60000 (R&S) is something you might notice. Or not.

DS7000 series is like something between Keysight 3000 and 4000, because of screen in between.  Hardware specs are obviously inspired by fast waveform rate of dsox3000 and also by users criticising it for very small memory. They also implemented Tektronix measurement logic, with full buffer measurements (3000T decimates. although quite well), histograms, large 1Mpoint FFT that has better interface (you can set start and stop, or center span frequency). Measurements are architecturally better than dsox3000, and on some measurement it shows. Not to mention severe aliasing that happens on Keysight as soon as you slow down timebase a little.. On certain timebases and setting you will have better results with DS1000Z than with 10 times more expensive Keysight 3000T
It has two channels of AWG (like KS 4000) , which has also one feature I like : while generating signal you can mix in and add separately controlled noise .
It has segmented memory (for free not a 1000€ option like R&S), search...

It has potential.  If there will be problems they will be because it seems to be complex and sophisticated instrument. Those are hard to debug and if there are problems they will be because of that. 

And pricing is quite funny. Lower freq (100, 200) are good price. With full app bundle you get it for much less than big names. but jump from 200MHz to 350 MHz is allmost 3000€ more... 200 to 500 MHZ is 5000€ more.  I would sell for 1000€ per 100MHz, and not sell 100MHz version at all.  200MHz -2000 €, 350 MHz -3500 €, 500 MHz -5000€. MSO for a bit more, let's say 800€. And all options included.  That would sell like cakes. Off course, if it works well.

But if it doesn't sell, they will adjust prices. Or maybe it will prove to be good enough to make problems for big guys.
DS4000 was good basic scope. Fast but only basic features. This one is not like that. It has all the good stuff from Keysight 3000 (fast) and Tektronix 3000 (better measurements) AWG from Keysight 4000, hardware decoding....... If it all works well, it is going to be interesting.
And then either premium manufacturers have to actually pump out really better products and keep price ranges, or drop prices.
In which case 2nd tier manufacturers have to do same... Good for consumers..

We will see who blinks first...

And, again, all that will be more interesting if someone unlocks ds7000. Or if Rigol gets smart and just sels fully unlocked scopes in few frequencies and with/without MSO. Or maybe Siglent does that, so Rigol will follow.

[nctnico]

But compared to dsox3000T, hardware capabilities wise, DS7000 makes Megazoom4 look , well, retarded.  4MS memory is just funny. And I know 1 milion wfms/sec is more than 600000 but it is not relevant. But 600000 vs 60000 (R&S) is something you might notice. Or not.

Waveforms/s is the least interesting specification on an oscilloscope. A nice number for marketing but anything over 1000waveforms/s will do just fine.

They also implemented Tektronix measurement logic, with full buffer measurements (3000T decimates. although quite well), histograms, large 1Mpoint FFT that has better interface (you can set start and stop, or center span frequency). Measurements are architecturally better than dsox3000, and on some measurement it shows

Full memory measurements are OK but not a show stopper because it affects only a few corner cases. What is more important is math on full memory but I don't see any mention on how the math channels are implemented on the DS7000. It that is done on the full memory depth then the DS7000 definitely scores bonus points because that is a more rare but very usefull feature especially when combined with signal filtering.

By the way, I'm not sold on the bandwidth/centre/span FFT controls. The FFT still is highly dependant on samplerate and memory depth so having traditional spectrum analyser-esque controls isn't making life easier.

Regarding the A-brands reacting: I have to see it first because I've been reading that for years already. So far none of the B-brands have caused any A-brand to change their pricing strategy or change their products.

[rsjsouza]

Regarding the MSO7000 series - I'm not sure where it leaves the DS4000 ones, which are similarly priced, but with which you now get less value for money. Maybe they'll get their price adjusted soon?

Wouldn't surprise me if they cleared those out in a super sale.

That could be interesting. Upgrade time?

If you are in the US, Rigol's clearance bin has some interesting offers: years ago I bought my DS4014 that also came with four brand new RP3500A probes (a bit lower price, but still). If you consider how Riglol still works, that becomes a good bargain for a full features 500MHz 4ch scope.

And yes, the oscilloscope is quite stable and functional.

Regarding the A-brands reacting: I have to see it first because I've been reading that for years already. So far none of the B-brands have caused any A-brand to change their pricing strategy or change their products.

Nico, Keysight released an entire line of basic scopes to get a bite of the $600 market, despite their initial spiel of competing with Tek's TBS1000. The reason I believe they were after the market price and not only education is due to the fact the Tek is so basic that Keysight didn't need to release such feature-rich product to compete with it.

[nctnico]

Regarding the A-brands reacting: I have to see it first because I've been reading that for years already. So far none of the B-brands have caused any A-brand to change their pricing strategy or change their products.

Nico, Keysight released an entire line of basic scopes to get a bite of the $600 market, despite their initial spiel of competing with Tek's TBS1000. The reason I believe they were after the market price and not only education is due to the fact the Tek is so basic that Keysight didn't need to release such feature-rich product to compete with it.

But neither Keysight or Tektronix is really competing on features / price compared to the Asian brands and that is what my statement is about. Heck, the A-brands don't even care about Siglent - none of them is comparing any of their products against the ones from Siglent. Also the prices of higher end products didn't drop.

Every time an Asian brand introduces a new oscilloscope people start to speculate on the A-brands getting into trouble. So far it ain't happening because people keep buying the A-brands. For a good reason ofcourse: better firmware and support.

[2N3055]

But neither Keysight or Tektronix is really competing on features / price compared to the Asian brands and that is what my statement is about. Heck, the A-brands don't even care about Siglent - none of them is comparing any of their products against the ones from Siglent. Also the prices of higher end products didn't drop.

Every time an Asian brand introduces a new oscilloscope people start to speculate on the A-brands getting into trouble. So far it ain't happening because people keep buying the A-brands. For a good reason ofcourse: better firmware and support.

Entry level market is ruled by Rigol, Siglent and occasional GW Instek. A-brands equipment in that class is more expensive and inferior..
And have it's share of problems, with "better firmware" that is intentionally crippled not to interfere with market positioning of their more expensive scopes.

DS4000 had good memory depth, but bad decoders, no search etc etc. It
DS6000 series also didn't have anything of advanced functions, just more bandwidth and bigger screen.
I didn't buy DS4000 because it didn't have functions I needed. It's quality is very good. It's just too simple.
Like upgrading DS1000Z to 500MHz and faster sampling.
Yes, bandwith is useful, but it couldn't compare to KS DSOX3000, TEK MDO3000, not even Hameg HMO3000, not to mention new R&S RTM3000

Rigol nor Siglent had anything that has better or in class specs like Keysight 3000 and 4000 series, or any scope in that class from A-brands.

Today DS/MSO7000 series has advanced features and is in their class. On paper, in some areas it is class leading.
How well it will work remains to be seen.
Also Siglent is making their first entry in this market too.
Also, how well it will work, we'll have yet to see.

If they do prove to be dependable and reasonably bug free, they WILL rattle the segment.

[Old Printer]

I took ntcnico's cue and looked at Rigol's clearance. They have a few 1054Z at $279 which at first hit me as the lowest price I had ever seen for that scope, but they cut the usual 3 year warente to 90 days. Tequipment usually sells B grade and with the EEVblog discount can be down close to $300, but you get the full factory warente. I don't think the extra $30 or so is worth loosing that 3 years.

[tautech]

Also Siglent is making their first entry in this market too.

Yeah well, sort of.
SDS3000 = WS3000 and have been around for a few years.
Recently updated to X models of 500 MHz and 1 GHz and doubled memory depth to 20 MPts/ch.

Also, how well it will work, we'll have yet to see.
If they do prove to be dependable and reasonably bug free, they WILL rattle the segment.

This new SDS5000X (500 MHz & 1 GHz) is listed as having storage depth up to 250Mpts/ch as standard so will bump heads hard against the new Rigol offering.

[nctnico]

If they do prove to be dependable and reasonably bug free, they WILL rattle the segment.

I've been reading that for several years and it didn't happen. Repeating it doesn't make it true. The problem is that specs on paper appear to be different in reality.

[jadew]

If they do prove to be dependable and reasonably bug free, they WILL rattle the segment.

I've been reading that for several years and it didn't happen. Repeating it doesn't make it true. The problem is that specs on paper appear to be different in reality.

I don't know why you think that, because I've heard a completely different story. When I bought my 1000Z (as soon as it became available), the distributor told me they have a lot of big customers, like Analog Devices, which had a building a couple of blocks down and apparently bought plenty of Rigol scopes back then (I assume from the 4000 or the 6000 series).

Probably a lot of smaller companies are going for them too, so I'm sure they've made a considerable dent in the leading manufacturer's profits already.

[2N3055]

If they do prove to be dependable and reasonably bug free, they WILL rattle the segment.

I've been reading that for several years and it didn't happen. Repeating it doesn't make it true. The problem is that specs on paper appear to be different in reality.

You are the one repeating non correct statements ad nauseum wishing them to be true.  Among other equipment, I have several pieces of Rigol equipment. They all perform better than specifications. They are simple, and don't have advanced capabilities. But what they have, works well. I had problem with screen on DP831, I reported it, and was sent replacement, brand new within three days, before I sent old one back. One phone call and two e-mails was all it was. There is a forum topic on Keysight E36300 series PSU, and recall. They shipped PSU with several hardware flaws, that shouldn't have passed design phase. When Rigol had DP832  regulator overheating problem, it was chinese shit. When Keysight does worse it has good support.

People like to extrapolate current quality by historic experiences. Keysight, while still being good company, is nowhere near old legendary HP in anything.
It is a different world, and USA companies nowadays are all run by same company principles. Some of them are better at making you think they care. They are literally teaching Machiavelli in management classes.
Milk the brand, as high profits as possible. That means no fundamental research, no product development unless absolutely necessary.  Reuse and recycle as many old parts as you can and make only cosmetic changes. If you develop something new make it cheap , make it look fancy, and pay more for front panel design than for base board. Looks and fame sells.

And as long people buy that crap, they will do it like that.

In meantime, Chinese are pumping out products that work better by the day. With 50% profit margin, not 5000%. Which means people can afford it.
In private (hobby) environment they already rule. In small company segment also, in last few years.

I next few years they will rule 3000 class too If A brands don't take the seriously. Which is the bread and butter of scope manufacturers.
Tektronix, and Keysight and LeCroy will rule 20, 40, 110 GHz scope market. Chinese don't have that. Yet.

[nctnico]

If they do prove to be dependable and reasonably bug free, they WILL rattle the segment.

I've been reading that for several years and it didn't happen. Repeating it doesn't make it true. The problem is that specs on paper appear to be different in reality.

I don't know why you think that, because I've heard a completely different story. When I bought my 1000Z (as soon as it became available), the distributor told me they have a lot of big customers, like Analog Devices, which had a building a couple of blocks down and apparently bought plenty of Rigol scopes back then (I assume from the 4000 or the 6000 series).

But you have not seen these scopes yourself... Maybe Analog just bought a DS1054Z for an intern or a one-off project. I wouldn't call a salesperson from a distributor a credible source. When I visit companies I see A-brands on the desks of electronics developers only. Other then that there is the occasional low end Rigol and (re) brands from Element14/Farnell and RS but these are mostly for occasional use.

[timgiles]

Well said 2N3055. I think you have hit the nail on the head. 

Sure there will be some bugs but seems they have decent bug reporting and regular firmware updates and that is really what people want. There isn't a scope released by any of he A class companies that does not end up with some bugs.

There is definitely a difference between how the same actions by a high end manufacturer and a lower end are received. I hope the new Rigol scope works out well for them and they continue to improve their design processes.

[rf-loop]

People like to extrapolate current quality by historic experiences. Keysight, while still being good company, is nowhere near old legendary HP in anything.

 

It was one day long time ago I tell to some noname chinese manufacturer that please, best and most easy way what you can do for understanding T&M designing (exept modern hardware things naturally, but it is not so important because developing is much much more that just circuit design - first need have some idea) but  thinking before muscle work is important if want rise to B+ or A class. If only want fast win and fill pocket... yes it can do but road is short.

Read carefully all or most HP journals over the decades and think what all things are important in development and final product also without forget documentation. Quality thinking, design team "spirit" and "flow" and how important is that there is also working very experieced and skilled peoples who really understand how to use equipments (for UI design and also mechanical design...  try example stack today these tabletop plastic boxes what mostly looks like childrens toys and designed as womens clothes and shoes thinking some fashion. Of course one reason is that many things are designed just for buy, use bit and throw away and buy again next model... every second year and better if life cycle is more short. More pixels and this and that as some time ago with digital camera boom.  But, still IN have never seen better photographs what was some take around 1930. Same with scopes etc. Skills, knowledge and experience is much more and more overlooked and only peoples think what this instrument can do. Without any worry about what are user itself specifications.
As we can many times seen also here peoples buy nice instruments but after then are like withjout any idea what it is or how to use it... windering what not connected probe show on the screen and if it is manufacturer made bug or some other error in design... and many other things. And this we can many times see when more experienced some users do even when we can assume he know what he is doing. Of course noobs are easy to fool...

Of cvourse we need better equipments but.... who cares better users? Who can develop users?
BTW, old HP did even this!! (also old original Tek some) Lot of courses, lot of teaching materials, lot of shared knowledge and so on.
Who is FIRST chinese company who do it... what year... perhaps 2020, 30, -40 or do it happen never.

[2N3055]

 Of cvourse we need better equipments but.... who cares better users? Who can develop users?
BTW, old HP did even this!! (also old original Tek some) Lot of courses, lot of teaching materials, lot of shared knowledge and so on.
Who is FIRST chinese company who do it... what year... perhaps 2020, 30, -40 or do it happen never.

RF, I agree with you that old HP and TEK did that. I learned how to use scope as child, on a Tek 2205 from user manual.  And also there was additional Tek book (sort of similar to todays ABC of scope primer). I learned all from there.
Also many things I learned from excellent documentation from HP, IBM etc etc..

My point is, THEY don't do it anymore. Whatever resources they have, are old, still from before, from that time. Reprinting old whitepapers with a new logo and design is not new value.
R&S is actually doing some effort here, but not much.

My point is that A brands are not doing it anymore, or doing on much smaller scale that they get credit for, undeserved.
That is why Chinese brands don't do it. Old documents are publicly available. Buy any scope, just download old Tek book. Buy and  DMM, get old HP measurement books.. And even A brands are not creating new materials, new value.
And A brand support is not what it used to be. No individual spare parts, no schematics, they will tell you to send it in for repairs, same way the Rigol or Siglent do. 
What is added value of support? A-brands have better bug reporting procedure? For the money they charge, they should have much less bugs that B brands to begin with. At least that is their explanation of much higher price. 
Remember "Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope" patronizing bullshit ? That is their opinion of customers.

Also there are cultural differences form old days. I know it from my country. In Eastern block, you had to make do with what you had available. Nobody cared if instrument was hard to use. If it was capable of achieving results, it was your responsibility to make effort and learn how to use it. It wasn't seen as a hard to use instrument but as your excuse not to work hard.
And if there was something you didn't understand, you had to figure it out by yourself. There was no Internet, nobody to call, maybe a colleague, maybe he knew... You had service manuals, you repaired it in house ("what do you mean pay somebody else to repair it. Aren't YOU the f**king EE? I pay you already. You have schematic, fix it. Tell me what parts to order... Off you go.."")

In China, they don't expect they need to tell you how to do you job, or hold your hand while measuring rise-time of signal.
If you are not qualified, step aside, there are others that know how to do it..
So manuals are basically exhaustive list of what functions are present.

I do agree with you that if they would realize this, and started doing more in this regard, that that would make them more popular.
But one of the reasons their prices are low is that they spend less money on marketing activities (which this is).

[rsjsouza]

Sinisa, well said. I was also raised in a country without resources (at university in the 1990s we had to get by with HP200CD oscillators, for example) and way before the internet (magazines and books were our primary source, and language barrier was high).

One remark is that, from my experience in the industry, companies nowadays are releasing much more troublesome products ("customers as beta testers") not because of pure evil, but also because the profit margins cannot absorb the longer development and test cycles these products require (the design teams are smaller and the resources are much more scrutinized when compared to an era of plenty such as the cold war). Despite the fact that software is conducive to an attitude of laziness or procrastination (everything can be fixed at a later time), its complexity increases at a geometric rate from version to version (as Nico mentioned a few posts ago).

A similar scenario happens with the production of technical content: the tasks of creating training content, technical literature and user's manuals is frequently assigned to a smaller group of people that also have other tasks such as applications and support (I am immersed in that daily). The consequence is there's a tendency to cater to the more pressing issues (or low hanging fruits) and release short Youtube videos or very focused written application notes, while the deep technical content tends to become an over arching project that takes a lot longer to reach a usable status - if ever. User's manuals still demand a great deal of maintenance (new features and bug fixes added quite frequently) and this is even worse with pure software products, where people do not even take the time anymore to read the manual and go directly to Google, Youtube or other resources.

DS4000 had good memory depth, but bad decoders, no search etc etc. It
DS6000 series also didn't have anything of advanced functions, just more bandwidth and bigger screen.
I didn't buy DS4000 because it didn't have functions I needed. It's quality is very good. It's just too simple.
Like upgrading DS1000Z to 500MHz and faster sampling.
Yes, bandwith is useful, but it couldn't compare to KS DSOX3000, TEK MDO3000, not even Hameg HMO3000, not to mention new R&S RTM3000

I have to disagree with you there; the latest firmware releases of the DS4000 do a decent job in decoding and are different than DS1000Z series in the fact they decode from memory and not the screen (one of Nico's pet peeves).
The absence of a search capability is my biggest annoyance with it, and I can live with its annoyance of having trouble decoding above 50ms/div, but YMMV.
Also, depending on your use, the small memory of the DSOX3000 completely blocks you from even considering a purchase.

[2N3055]

I have to disagree with you there; the latest firmware releases of the DS4000 do a decent job in decoding and are different than DS1000Z series in the fact they decode from memory and not the screen (one of Nico's pet peeves).
The absence of a search capability is my biggest annoyance with it, and I can live with its annoyance of having trouble decoding above 50ms/div, but YMMV.
Also, depending on your use, the small memory of the DSOX3000 completely blocks you from even considering a purchase.

You are completely right, DS4000 does that, but decodes are still software driven etc, etc.  I know it is not exactly like DS1000Z in that regards (in fact it is much better). I apologize for confusion I created I was exaggerating a bit to prove the point. For me, for my use, lack of search made it not much more useful than DS1000Z. That is why I sad that, rather clumsily... Sorry for that, I hope i explained it better now.

Regards,
Sinisa

[nctnico]

What is added value of support? A-brands have better bug reporting procedure? For the money they charge, they should have much less bugs that B brands to begin with. At least that is their explanation of much higher price. 

IMHO this is a bit of a rant. The A-brands demonstratingly have less bugs than the B brands when an instrument is introduced and are more committed to fixing bugs in a reasonable timeframe. Also in my experience the A-brands work better in corner cases. This is one of the reasons I've turned away from buying cheap test equipment. The chance that it won't perform at some point is high and then I need to spend money again to buy 'the good stuff' (besides time/money wasted on messing around).

[Wolfgang]

With any new round of features new bugs come as a standard. Its all like Windows (and a lot of A brand instruments are Windows based). If you want something that works from day one

- buy an A brand if you can, or a very trusty mass model from a B brand
- get a model that has been on the market for years and that does the job you need
- avoid new and fancy stuff if you can
- read the net for reviews and bug reports.
- negotiate hard. Your chances with old equipment is much better than with new models.

much luck !

[2N3055]

What is added value of support? A-brands have better bug reporting procedure? For the money they charge, they should have much less bugs that B brands to begin with. At least that is their explanation of much higher price. 

IMHO this is a bit of a rant. The A-brands demonstratingly have less bugs than the B brands when an instrument is introduced and are more committed to fixing bugs in a reasonable timeframe. Also in my experience the A-brands work better in corner cases. This is one of the reasons I've turned away from buying cheap test equipment. The chance that it won't perform at some point is high and then I need to spend money again to buy 'the good stuff' (besides time/money wasted on messing around).

I'm not the one that will join EVERY SINGLE discussion mentioning Rigol and Siglent and explain people they are idiots because they want to buy something you don't approve..
Like you are on a crusade or something...
And it is you who cannot prove your opinion with data. Your personal experience is based on sample of 1. You bought one Siglent scope model as an early adopter. Which is bad idea anyway, being early adopter.
Quite frankly I think you have every right to be pissed at them then. I would be too if I had a story like you. Because of YOUR story I am a bit wary of Siglent. I've seen some mistreatment of compensation capacitors issue etc. I do have a reservation about them a bit too.

But because of what happened to you once,  you shouldn't extrapolate that:
1. All Chinese equipment from all manufacturers is shit.
2. All Chinese manufacturers are shit.
3. All manufacturers and products never change. They never learn anything and can never get better.
4. Also good ones cannot change to worse. They are just blessed with goodness..... (hint: Tektronix)

When Keysight sells you very expensive (for what is is) power supply that has basic flaws at being power supply (it has switch on transients that damaged 2000 USD development boards, and cannot measure correctly ..) and has fundamental flaws in it's core analog circuitry, then you are not pissed at "crappy Americans". Than, after waiting for months for them to admit it, they finally replace it for you and then you are happy with their excellent support. What about handheld meters fiasco, recalls of 3446x series, flash rot on 2000/3000 series, exploding PSU's on 3000 series.... Etc Etc..
No, they don't exist. You have excellent support. It's a premium manufacturer, these things don't happen...

I'm a realist. Anybody that expect that something as complicated as MSO/DSOX3000 or MSO/DO7000, or R&S2000/3000/4000 series can be developed in a year with zero bugs is, well, delusional.
And I mean by anybody, not even the mighty ones..
Keysight 3000/4000 series is the most stable of all because it has been debugged for 10 years. If you can, assemble list of all erratas and bugfixes over the years. I took a  quick look, for 2000/3000A it is a 23 pages document, including enhancements and bugfixes. For 3000T it is additional 11 pages. But after all that, it is rock solid.
Because of being that old, it is also horribly overpriced for what it is. I would rather go with LeCroy 3000 or R&S 3000 series. I like R&S 3000 best, but that thing is as buggy at the moment as you think Rigols and Siglents are. Which are not anymore. LeCroy has it's funny little annoyances too.

I apologize to everyone for writing so much.

And Nico, I do understand your frustration. I respect you have your opinions. But, please, you have to stop telling us what we should do or think. We heard you first 100 times. There are many people here that have quite positive experience with Chinese equipment, quite opposite from you, provided that you don't have unrealistic expectations and accept those are not high end products.
I wish you all the best, and thank you for all the stuff I learn from you. If you wish to reply, please do, but I would like to stop arguing with you. I respect you and don't want that. I wish we could stop here and agree to disagree if we cannot agree to anything else.

Regards,

Sinisa

[nctnico]

But because of what happened to you once,  you shouldn't extrapolate that:
1. All Chinese equipment from all manufacturers is shit.

See you are ranting. To start with: this statement is demonstratebly wrong. I never wrote that. As I wrote before: there are Chinese manufacturers out there which do test their equipment thouroughly before releasing and hence are on par with the A-brands when it comes to a low amount of bugs but they are more expensive.

[2N3055]

1. All Chinese equipment from all manufacturers is shit.

See you are ranting. To start with: this statement is demonstratebly wrong.

I honestly don't understand what do you mean here. My English is failing me.. But, as I said, on this topic, I'm afraid you will have to have a monolog, without me.

[ebastler]

1. All Chinese equipment from all manufacturers is shit.

See you are ranting. To start with: this statement is demonstratebly wrong. Also there are Chinese manufacturers out there which do test their equipment thouroughly before releasing but they are more expensive.

Nico -- when I first saw your post, I thought you were joking. Now you have edited it to expand on your "argument", and I am beginning to wonder whether your quote from 2N3055's post and your comment are actually meant seriously?! 

If so, please read 2N3055's post again. Or, at the very least, re-read the line above the one you quoted.

[2N3055]

Thank you for that edit. Now it makes more sense, albeit a bit in contradiction with many your previous posts.

Anyhow, would you please name a few of those that you do trust to make good products.

I personally think that GW Instek has feature set and quality that is premium. They are Taiwanese. Good, solid company.
If they made a 500MHz 4GSa/sec version of their 2000E series I would buy that in a heartbeat. But they don't have that.

Are there any more brands that I could look up? I would appreciate info, as well as many forum members here.

Regards,
Sinisa

[nctnico]

Thank you for that edit. Now it makes more sense, albeit a bit in contradiction with many your previous posts.

Anyhow, would you please name a few of those that you do trust to make good products.

I personally think that GW Instek has feature set and quality that is premium. They are Taiwanese. Good, solid company.
If they made a 500MHz 4GSa/sec version of their 2000E series I would buy that in a heartbeat. But they don't have that.

Are there any more brands that I could look up? I would appreciate info, as well as many forum members here.

You already mentioned GW Instek but MicSig is another good example of a company where they test thouroughly before releasing. I have a TO1104 and I have not been able to spot a single bug in it despite my (usual) thourough testing. Maybe there are other brands out there as well. For example I would like to try an oscilloscope from ZLG and check what is what. I know they aren't cheap but they don't seem to be available outside China.

[2N3055]

You already mentioned GW Instek but MicSig is another good example of a company where they test thouroughly before releasing. I have a TO1104 and I have not been able to spot a single bug in it.

Thanks!! I actually keep an open eye on MicSig TO1104, but couldn't find an excuse so far to claim it necessary for any projects I'm working on now... :-)
I'm not nostalgic, I could get used to no buttons, whatever works..
Unfortunately, they are good (better?)  alternative to Rigol DS1000Z series (1000Z are nice little desktop scopes, despite decoding being a joke), but MicSig has nothing a bit higher up the food chain.

Regards,
Sinisa

[Karel]

To hobbyists: The Rigol DS1054Z is a great purchase, go get one!

To professionals: Stay away from brands like Rigol as far as possible.

Here is our experience with Rigol's "flagship":

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg1621537/#msg1621537

By the way, since the last firmware update for the DS6000 (yes, they had one!), sometimes, when I switch on the scope,
it shows this screen (switching off and on again resolves the problem):

[ebclr]

Google is banned in China, They can't  use google translator

[dr.diesel]

To professionals: Stay away from brands like Rigol as far as possible.

The 4000 series is a perfect example, took Rigol over a year to produce a non-crashing firmware, and my personal unit I kept at home, 2 different encoders went bad before the stable FW was released.   

However, I do believe they are improving, perhaps not there yet, but in 5-10 years they might well be a competing force.

[Wolfgang]

Sorry to say, but there is a grain of truth in all this rant. The story runs like this:

- A low-end model is simple. Simplicity in software means less errors.
- A low end model sells in millions or at least 100ds of thousands. The chance
  that a user finds an error is quite high, just because of the number of people
  trying everything out.
- Lots of complaints demand a fast problem fixing cylcle. A manufacturer of
  a mass model cannot afford a lot of bad press so the fixing is done with a high priority
- After a a reasonable timespan (1-2 years) the low-end model errors are
  etched out and you have a reasonable product.

Not so for the high end.
- Higher complexity is more prone to errors, on a nonlinear scale
- A small customer base results in low sales volume
- Mostly specialized applications, not generalities like the low-end models
- Bugs are detected, but by few users only
- These bugs have low priority due their small numbers and low public attention
- It may take years to remove them, if ever.

This is the primary dilemma of a rising star company which had a lot of success on the low end. If they move to the pro segment, user expectations are very different from what they are used to. Pros are absolutely intolerant to missing specifications, bugs or lousy or nonexistent product update cycles. Arguing that you are cheaper than A brand XYZ wont help you there. I have seen this a lot with Rigol stuff. Their cheap line is OK, but beware of some pro instruments.

[mikeselectricstuff]

- A low-end model is simple. Simplicity in software means less errors.

And the low cost means people have lower expectations, and are more tolerant of issues because there is either no competition, or the competition is worse and/or has different issues.

 

[ttelectronic]

It can be difficult. At a place I used to work we had a well known Japanese brand of equipment. Now, while their service and support is outstanding. This was a $75k+ machine that we had to struggle with for over a year until they would replace it. It is definitely possible to get a crap product from a great brand.

[tautech]

You already mentioned GW Instek but MicSig is another good example of a company where they test thouroughly before releasing. I have a TO1104 and I have not been able to spot a single bug in it.

Thanks!! I actually keep an open eye on MicSig TO1104, but couldn't find an excuse so far to claim it necessary for any projects I'm working on now... :-)
I'm not nostalgic, I could get used to no buttons, whatever works..
Unfortunately, they are good (better?)  alternative to Rigol DS1000Z series (1000Z are nice little desktop scopes, despite decoding being a joke), but MicSig has nothing a bit higher up the food chain.

Regards,
Sinisa

Don't swallow the continual BS Nico keeps splurting about mature products at release. 
His favored GW for example........see this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/possible-gw-instek-gds-1000b-hack/msg1734995/#msg1734995

[David Hess]

The screen glare was horrible.  Even Dave's camera was having trouble and focusing on the foreground reflected by the screen.

The excessively complex control panel markings add nothing and detract from intelligibility.  Were the designers simply courageous or did they get paid for every line, angle, color added?  I like the simple lines and shaded areas used on old Tektronix font panels.

The FFT function discards phase information.  I am still looking or a modern DSO which supports this.

No peak-to-peak triggering.

No trigger after delayed sweep.

Supports windowed measurements.

No high resolution acquisition mode?  Does that mean that again measurements are made on the display record?

1mV/div sure looks like x5 or x10 digital magnification but the specifications unambiguously say 1mV/div sensitivity.

Marketing materials advertise shortened overload recovery time but no specification is given.  Cleverly, this is done as an image so a text search does not find it but it sure caught my eye.

I could see the interface lag when Dave was operating it.  How slow does it need to be?

Did Rigol confuse differential with two channels?  Does each module have two differential channels?  The photographs do not show that.

[bitseeker]

The excessively complex control panel markings add nothing and detract from intelligibility.  Were the designers simply courageous or did they get paid for every line, angle, color added?  I like the simple lines and shaded areas used on old Tektronix font panels.

My interpretation of it is that Rigol is trying to develop a unique trade dress to differentiate themselves from the competition (and be able to point fingers if someone copies it). However, one of the following or something is hampering them: they don't have usability knowledge/experience, they have the knowledge but aren't allowed to apply it, or they don't know/believe/care that usability is important.

A product can certainly have a unique look without making labels from half a dozen font families and positioning them every which way all over the front panel. I have to hope that they just don't think it matters and can fix it whenever they wake up, because it's obviously getting worse.

I could see the interface lag when Dave was operating it.

Yeah, I was surprised to see how sluggish it was, considering the price.

[rf-loop]

1mV/div sure looks like x5 or x10 digital magnification but the specifications unambiguously say 1mV/div sensitivity.

No, specification clearly tell that 1mV and 2mV/div are magnification from 4mV/div
Look specs note [2]

[David Hess]

No, specification clearly tell that 1mV and 2mV/div are magnification from 4mV/div
Look specs note [2]

So they do.  I saw the footnote marker but searched the whole datasheet for the footnotes and missed them.

[Muxr]

Time is money as they say. If you're looking at this class of scope then you probably just want a known quantity. I really don't see a point in getting a Rigol with its spotty history. Some of the specs do look quite tempting I must admit, but that UI and all the bugs it entails is something you gotta live with. At the entry level you have no choice, but there is much better choice in this price bracket.

I personally wouldn't take a chance on Rigol if I had $3-4K+ to spend on a scope. That R&S RTM 3000 looks mighty fine however.

[Karel]

Don't swallow the continual BS Nico keeps splurting about mature products at release.

Instead, we should swallow the BS from a siglent salesman?

Don't buy anything from siglent if you are not sure you don't want to sell it on Ebay later...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-_wrongful-trademark-claim_/

[bitseeker]

Don't buy anything from siglent if you are not sure you don't want to sell it on Ebay later...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-_wrongful-trademark-claim_/

That was almost three years ago and it keeps coming back like the Yaigol thread. Ancient history.

Recent history of used Siglent gear actually sold on eBay:

SDS1052DL, 10 days ago
SSA3021X-TG, 14 days ago
SDG5082, 15 days ago
SDS1052DL, 16 days ago
SDG830, 26 days ago
SDG805, 31 days ago
SDS1202XE, 36 days ago
SDS1102X, 40 days ago
SDS1052DL, 42 days ago
SDS1102CML, 42 days ago
SDS1052DL, 43 days ago
SPD3303X-E, 53 days ago
SDS1102CML, 54 days ago
SDS1202X-E, 64 days ago
SDS1102CML, 65 days ago
SDS1052DL, 79 days ago
...
etc.

It's OK to argue, but don't just regurgitate outdated material as supporting evidence.

(Disclaimer: I currently don't own any Siglent equipment, nor do I have any affiliation with Siglent)

[2N3055]

The FFT function discards phase information.  I am still looking or a modern DSO which supports this.

Agree. I really don't understand why it is so hard.

No peak-to-peak triggering.

Would you please explain what you mean. Auto trigger level in middle od P-P of signal? Or peak detection trigger? Both would nice.

No trigger after delayed sweep.

I just use zoom and position.

Supports windowed measurements.

Couldn't find that in a manual. Do you mean gated, meaning you can select with cursors which portion of data to apply measurement to. It has that as far as I could see.

No high resolution acquisition mode?  Does that mean that again measurements are made on the display record?

No high res mode. Fail. OTOH, measurements are made on a 1M decimated data in normal mode ( Keysight 3000 I believe works on  a 64K decimated data), or in full buffer mode so on full 500M if you have it.

1mV/div sure looks like x5 or x10 digital magnification but the specifications unambiguously say 1mV/div sensitivity.

Yes 1 and 2 mV are digital zoom from 4mV. Datasheet. But, Keysight 3000/4000 does the same. R&S 2000/3000/4000 is much better for that than both.

Marketing materials advertise shortened overload recovery time but no specification is given.  Cleverly, this is done as an image so a text search does not find it but it sure caught my eye.

Yes, there are many things like that. Not good.

I could see the interface lag when Dave was operating it.  How slow does it need to be?

It could be faster. I don't see why are there delays redrawing screen on 1 uSec/DIV.

Regards,

Sinisa

[tautech]

Don't swallow the continual BS Nico keeps splurting about mature products at release.

Instead, we should swallow the BS from a siglent salesman?

Don't buy anything from siglent if you are not sure you don't want to sell it on Ebay later...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-_wrongful-trademark-claim_/

Oh really that old chestnut again.   

Do you need reminding of this post in that thread :
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-_wrongful-trademark-claim_/msg784401/#msg784401

[2N3055]

Time is money as they say. If you're looking at this class of scope then you probably just want a known quantity. I really don't see a point in getting a Rigol with its spotty history. Some of the specs do look quite tempting I must admit, but that UI and all the bugs it entails is something you gotta live with. At the entry level you have no choice, but there is much better choice in this price bracket.

I personally wouldn't take a chance on Rigol if I had $3-4K+ to spend on a scope. That R&S RTM 3000 looks mighty fine however.

I agree in principle. Problem is that unlocked 100MHz MSO version, R&S RTM 3000 MS is 10000€ with VAT(7500€ without VAT ).  MSO7104 unlocked is 5700 € with VAT(4800€ without VAT).

[nctnico]

Time is money as they say. If you're looking at this class of scope then you probably just want a known quantity. I really don't see a point in getting a Rigol with its spotty history. Some of the specs do look quite tempting I must admit, but that UI and all the bugs it entails is something you gotta live with. At the entry level you have no choice, but there is much better choice in this price bracket.

I personally wouldn't take a chance on Rigol if I had $3-4K+ to spend on a scope. That R&S RTM 3000 looks mighty fine however.

I agree in principle. Problem is that unlocked 100MHz MSO version, R&S RTM 3000 MS is 10000€ with VAT(7500€ without VAT ).  MSO7104 unlocked is 5700 € with VAT(4800€ without VAT).

The big question is: do you get the same in reality? If you only need 100MHz there are other options out there like the R&S RTB2000 or GW Instek MSO2000 series.

[2N3055]

The big question is: do you get the same in reality? If you only need 100MHz there are other options out there like the R&S RTB2000 or GW Instek MSO2000 series.

If it works, DS7000 has many things those mentioned don't..

But it remains to be seen if it some advanced prototype or fully featured product.
I have so far compiled few objections:
1. No high res mode. It can do averages from multiple triggers, but not high-res running average mode. Big fail.
2. Still there is visible lag from button changes to starting redraw with new settings. Frankly, it's not a problem, but it simply shouldn't be there. Optimization of that is in order.
3.  It is not low noise front end. It is in DSOX3000/4000 class though, but worse than R&S.. Or Lecroy WS3000 which is also 8 Bit.
4.  No math on math. That's no good. For instance: apply filter, that pipe that to differentiation.  Otherwise you just get too much noise. Especially when you don't have low noise input, and you didn't implement Hires. Fail.
5. Thinking about that, filters should be separate from math. I should be part of channel setup, together with normal hardware bandwith limiting.
6. There is no custom math formulas. Math is worse than (except FFT) than in DS4000. In fact , it is pretty much same as on DS1000Z. Fail.

I'm sure if I had chance to try it I would find more...

Thing is, hardware is capable of being so much more.  We will see if Rigol is capable to bring it to it's full potential.
And of course, how long will it take if they do.

[bitseeker]

Maybe those features are for the DS8000.

[David Hess]

No peak-to-peak triggering.

Would you please explain what you mean. Auto trigger level in middle od P-P of signal? Or peak detection trigger? Both would nice.

Peak-to-peak automatic triggering continuously sets the trigger level to a percentage of the peak-to-peak signal level; it is similar to triggering with AC coupling but it ignores duty cycle.  It is great for fast hands free operation when you are probing around in a circuit.  Automatic level triggering sets the trigger level after the trigger times out which is much slower and annoying if the level drifts to a point where it barely triggers preventing timeout.

I do not know of any modern oscilloscopes which have this feature but that does not stop me from noting its absence.

No trigger after delayed sweep.

I just use zoom and position.

Trigger after delayed sweep removes jitter.  It was more important in video applications but it still has its uses like if I want to view reverse recovery of a diode in a switching regulator where the duty cycle is not stable and I cannot trigger on the reverse recovery itself.

Supports windowed measurements.

Couldn't find that in a manual. Do you mean gated, meaning you can select with cursors which portion of data to apply measurement to. It has that as far as I could see.

Windowed means the measurement area is set by cursors which I found in the manual.  I do not like to use the term gated for this because that more properly means that the measurement window is controlled by some other signal as with a gated frequency counter.

3.  It is not low noise front end. It is in DSOX3000/4000 class though, but worse than R&S.. Or Lecroy WS3000 which is also 8 Bit.

If they say low noise then they should specify the noise level.  The automatic RMS measurement function should be able to measure the noise level directly but on some DSOs, RMS measurements only work on high level noise free signals.

Like "fast overload recovery" and "unlimited internet", everybody has a "low noise front end" when they do not have to specify it.

4.  No math on math. That's no good. For instance: apply filter, that pipe that to differentiation.  Otherwise you just get too much noise. Especially when you don't have low noise input, and you didn't implement Hires. Fail.
5. Thinking about that, filters should be separate from math. I should be part of channel setup, together with normal hardware bandwith limiting.

Something else I always look for is being able to average the output of the FFT and not the input which is handy for making noise measurements.  I would also like to have an FFT normalized to SqrtHz when this is done.  Computers are good at this sort of thing yet I usually end up doing the normalization manually.

[iMo]

Some short videos I've found:
EDIT: all short videos at RigolTech
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLzhNnl9a0-RZz7VyTrkcHw

[1anX]

I wonder what progress has been made by Dave on the teardown and review, anyone know?

[snoopy]

I wonder what progress has been made by Dave on the teardown and review, anyone know?

Hopefully Dave will compare it with the equivalent Keysight scope because Rigol seems to only want to compare it with the Tek MDO3000. Seems a very one sided comparison.

cheers

[1anX]

I wonder what progress has been made by Dave on the teardown and review, anyone know?

Hopefully Dave will compare it with the equivalent Keysight scope because Rigol seems to only want to compare it with the Tek MDO3000. Seems a very one sided comparison.

cheers

Good point and I'm betting it will be compared to Keysight as well as other comparable scopes Dave has experience with in his lab.

The thing that concerns me at the moment is that he did a preliminary tear down and as yet we have heard nothing more. I cant help but wonder if he has encountered a serious flaw/bug and has contacted Rigol for their input before continuing with a review.

He has been given the opportunity by Rigol to do an early review of their product and as yet no show and tell from Dave!

[Pinkus]

A review remains unchanged for years on the Internet - even though the firmware has long since been updated several times. If there are major problems now, I think it's only fair if Dave informs Rigol and requests a feedback (or maybe he was promised a rush job of bug fixing of the firmware and he is waiting for this).
Anyway: I am sure, creating a large review with comparisons to other scopes will take days. If the video has 60 minutes, I am sure shooting and editing will take much much longer.

[iMo]

There is an user who owns 7000 for several weeks and he has already found an issue
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg1749839/#msg1749839

A review remains unchanged for years on the Internet - even though the firmware has long since been updated several times. If there are major problems now, I think it's only fair if Dave informs Rigol and requests a feedback (or maybe he was promised a rush job of bug fixing of the firmware and he is waiting for this).

I do not think so.
An independent review shows the reality as-is at the time of the review.
Otherwise you will wait forever.. And the review is not independent anymore as it depends on the vendor's will..

[JPortici]

Yes 1 and 2 mV are digital zoom from 4mV. Datasheet. But, Keysight 3000/4000 does the same. R&S 2000/3000/4000 is much better for that than both.

Keysight's ASIC is several years old though.

[Pinkus]

There is an user who owns 7000 for several weeks and he has already found an issue
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg1749839/#msg1749839

A review remains unchanged for years on the Internet - even though the firmware has long since been updated several times. If there are major problems now, I think it's only fair if Dave informs Rigol and requests a feedback (or maybe he was promised a rush job of bug fixing of the firmware and he is waiting for this).

I do not think so. An independent review shows the reality as-is at the time of the review. Otherwise you will wait forever.. (and the review is not independent anymore as it depends on the vendor's will)..

Well, we disagree here. In my opinion it is a sign of good journalism to give others the opportunity to express themselves on reproaches. If Dave should have found bigger bugs (which he did not mention anywhere and which is pure speculation!), then it is absolutely legitimate to give Rigol the possibility to provide an answer, most of all as this is a brand new product which can never be bug free. And should Rigol say: "Please wait another week with the review, because we are developing and testing a new and much much better firmware", then it is in the interest of all future potential buyers to postpone the review for this long. That doesn't mean he shouldn't mention the problems! But it would be much more helpful and professional to add an "already fixed" to this.

Postponing/waiting has nothing to do with 'not being independent'. EEVblog is not  "Fox News" or "The Sun". And Dave certainly won't wait forever. But if it's just a few days, it's good for all of us (win-win) as you get a review of a device including the latest firmware.
What you are asking for is a bashing now ('hurry before they come up with bug fixes') with showing bugs that would be fixed long before the device is delivered to you. But in the end would only be good for entertaining some, not for providing hints if to buy the product or not. That doesn't help anyone - so it would be a loose-lose situation (well OK: a win for the entertaining).

[iMo]

Well, we disagree here. In my opinion it is a sign of good journalism to give others the opportunity to express themselves on reproaches.

Sure, after the independent review has been provided the vendor may express himself and clarify whether it is a bug or a feature and what he wants to do with it.
Mind the product has been thrown on the market already (2 months back afaik).
Nobody seeks an entertainment or bashing here - that is a nonsense, the people seriously look for an independent review.

[tautech]

Well, we disagree here. In my opinion it is a sign of good journalism to give others the opportunity to express themselves on reproaches.

Sure, after the independent review has been provided the vendor may express himself and clarify whether it is a bug or a feature and what he wants to do with it.
Mind the product has been thrown on the market already (2 months back afaik).
Nobody seeks an entertainment or bashing here - that is a nonsense, the people seriously look for an independent review.

This:

A review remains unchanged for years on the Internet - even though the firmware has long since been updated several times. If there are major problems now, I think it's only fair if Dave informs Rigol and requests a feedback (or maybe he was promised a rush job of bug fixing of the firmware and he is waiting for this).
Anyway: I am sure, creating a large review with comparisons to other scopes will take days. If the video has 60 minutes, I am sure shooting and editing will take much much longer.

Is bang on ! 

Dave did a fine job with an off the cuff and unedited first look and I'm quite sure few could replicate it !
The next step is indeed a proper look and even Dave has said it's a mammoth task to do fully so to wizz through each of the features to give us a taste of its capabilities he's quite likely to have stumbled on something not quite right and given Rigol a chance to fix it.
High profile reviews like Dave does can determine buyers decisions for years to come, something Dave is more aware of in today's truly international marketplace.

[Wolfgang]

I agree. If you review something, you do it on what the product does or does not at the time of the review.
You may mention comments on future updates by the manufacturer, but a review is a snapshot of facts and not the intentions or plans.

I remember Daves review of the first DP832s; The review was put online, RIGOL reworked their mainboard fixing some problems (even replacing the mainboards of existing customers free of charge) and Dave did a follow-up review where he stated that its OK now.

If you want to be perceived as unbiased you should avoid all notions of "embedded" journalism where the manufacturer is given some control of what you say and what not.
The borderline between marketing and journalism must be very clear.

PS: In Germany car journalists are only given new cars for testing if their reviews in the past have been pleasent. All other ones have to wait until the car is on the market.

[iMo]

..High profile reviews like Dave does can determine buyers decisions for years to come, something Dave is more aware of in today's truly international marketplace.

Do you think a reviewer with "his hands tied together with such a tremendous responsibility" can provide a truly independent review??

[tautech]

..High profile reviews like Dave does can determine buyers decisions for years to come, something Dave is more aware of in today's truly international marketplace.

Do you think a reviewer with "his hands tied together with such a tremendous responsibility" can provide a truly independent review??

Dave says it as he finds it but a full review of new products is a very daunting proposal. It's not until you've been involved beta testing product and then after release bugs get reported that you wonder how you missed them.
Modern equipment is very complex and what doesn't seem like a bug to you might be to me and vice versa.
Dave will give us a good look at this new model but in only an hour he can't be expected to look into every nook and cranny or under every stone.

[2N3055]

Of course he can. It's one thing not to lie, and it's other not to be an irresponsible asshole.
If there was a delay, you can be sure he will say that too.

But we might be overreacting. It takes a lot of time to make a decent review, even a not very detailed one. And then editing and posting. It's been two weeks since he got one. I takes a day just to go through manual.. I believe he has other things to do in life... So it might simply just going slow..

We'll see. 

[Wolfgang]

..High profile reviews like Dave does can determine buyers decisions for years to come, something Dave is more aware of in today's truly international marketplace.

Do you think a reviewer with "his hands tied together with such a tremendous responsibility" can provide a truly independent review??

As a responsible journalist, what you write must be true, nothing else. A journalist is not responsible for the outcome on companies or markets. Anything else is just sick thinking (like journalist are supposed not to write about the German Diesel scandal because if could affect the profitability of VW or the situation on the labour market).

In the end, the manufacturs are responsible to

- Create great products
- Test them thorouhly and properly
- Create an understandable documentation
- Ask for a reasonable price
- Stick to the truth in their marketing claims
- Be responsive in case of problems

The journalist is ONLY repsonsible for checking if the issues above are reasonably met or not.

It is absoultely ridiculous to say that Dave is responsible for RIGOLs poor workers in a Chinese factory. They are not poor, they are free to develop anything they like, and they are responsible for it. Dave is responsibly only for that this findings are true and how he presents them.

[DuPe]

Quote from: Wolfgang on Today at 11:28:38

...
I remember Daves review of the first DP832s; The review was put online, RIGOL reworked their mainboard fixing some problems (even replacing the mainboards of existing customers free of charge) and Dave did a follow-up review where he stated that its OK now.
......

Hi Wolfgang,

do you have any more information on "replacing ..."?

I have one of the early dp832 and especially overshoot at poweron annoys me a lot

Thanks

Peter

[Wolfgang]

Hi Peter,

IIRC, the issue was that RIGOL intentionally (or by stupidity) placed a much too small cooler with a voltage regulator running far more than 100 °C in the absoulte vicinity of two electrolytic capacitor ensuring that they have a rather short life. There was a lot of space around, so they did this with no explicable reason.

They fixed this in newer versions (I have 4 DP832As, but only the newer type), and they said that owners of the old version could send in theirs for a new free mainboard.

The behaviour of RIGOL at the time was a reason why I bought quite some RIGOL stuff. To me, these people appeared as honest and dependable. Eveyony can make errors, but they stood up for it and fixed it. It was a trustbuilding measure.

For more info, why dont you have a look on Daves first and second review of the DP832 here on EEVBlog ?

PS: I have heard of the overshoot problem, but I need to measure this one with the versions I have.

[DuPe]

Thanks for the hint Wolfgang,
I watched the update, but this was only some news for the overtemperature issue.
Seems there is no solution for the overshoot.


Anyhow I will stop now to hijack this thread further and wait for some update for the mso7000


Thanks again
Peter

[bugi]

As a responsible journalist, what you write must be true, nothing else.

I think this is getting way off-topic, and perhaps we should continue in a proper section, but...
Afaik, that simple approach to morals and ethics of journalism has been thrown to garbage bin in most western cultures decades ago (and not because evil intent or corruption, but because it has been found to be insufficient). I could give quite simple counter-examples, but I'd do that only in another section (in a more on-topic thread).

[nctnico]

There is an user who owns 7000 for several weeks and he has already found an issue
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg1749839/#msg1749839

A review remains unchanged for years on the Internet - even though the firmware has long since been updated several times. If there are major problems now, I think it's only fair if Dave informs Rigol and requests a feedback (or maybe he was promised a rush job of bug fixing of the firmware and he is waiting for this).

I do not think so.
An independent review shows the reality as-is at the time of the review.
Otherwise you will wait forever.. And the review is not independent anymore as it depends on the vendor's will..

The truth is somewhere in the middle. While making my own reviews I report bugs / shortcomings to the manufacturer and in some cases they provide a fix for some of the problems found during the review period. But I'm not going to wait forever because when people buy the instrument shortly after the review they'll also receive what I've reviewed at that moment. If a piece equipment isn't really ready for release then it is bad luck for the manufacturer but the review goes online.

[1anX]

Perhaps Dave could add his comments regarding when the teardown and review will be available?

It just triggered my "whats up" reaction when there was no follow up to the preliminary teardown. I wondered if he had encountered a problem and perhaps contacted Rigol.

I dont doubt the review it will get from Dave will be a complete warts and all look at the new scope. You just have to look at the abundant commentary and number of firmware fixes going on with Dave's own 121GW meter to know that all will be revealed!

Rigol will get an honest assessment of their 7000 series scope, I'm just hoping the review will come out sometime soon as the scope has me interested.

[bitseeker]

Well, it's a tradeoff: more info vs. earlier video release.

[CustomEngineerer]

Perhaps Dave could add his comments regarding when the teardown and review will be available?

Or perhaps you could just wait until its ready and stop acting like he owes you anything. All this random speculation is pointless. It will be ready when its ready.

[MT]

How can they fail so miserably with the frontpanel on 11.5kusd scope!?

[ebastler]

Worth repeating...

Why? That post takes up a lot of screen space and looks ugly.

[fonograph]

Worth repeating...

Why? That post takes up a lot of screen space and looks ugly.

Not as ugly as Rigol though. 

[EEVblog]

Perhaps Dave could add his comments regarding when the teardown and review will be available?

I don't know, I'm just snowed under at the moment with lots of stuff.

[EEVblog]

There is an user who owns 7000 for several weeks and he has already found an issue
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg1749839/#msg1749839

A review remains unchanged for years on the Internet - even though the firmware has long since been updated several times. If there are major problems now, I think it's only fair if Dave informs Rigol and requests a feedback (or maybe he was promised a rush job of bug fixing of the firmware and he is waiting for this).

I do not think so. An independent review shows the reality as-is at the time of the review. Otherwise you will wait forever.. (and the review is not independent anymore as it depends on the vendor's will)..

Well, we disagree here. In my opinion it is a sign of good journalism to give others the opportunity to express themselves on reproaches. If Dave should have found bigger bugs (which he did not mention anywhere and which is pure speculation!), then it is absolutely legitimate to give Rigol the possibility to provide an answer, most of all as this is a brand new product which can never be bug free. And should Rigol say: "Please wait another week with the review, because we are developing and testing a new and much much better firmware", then it is in the interest of all future potential buyers to postpone the review for this long. That doesn't mean he shouldn't mention the problems! But it would be much more helpful and professional to add an "already fixed" to this.

Postponing/waiting has nothing to do with 'not being independent'. EEVblog is not  "Fox News" or "The Sun". And Dave certainly won't wait forever. But if it's just a few days, it's good for all of us (win-win) as you get a review of a device including the latest firmware.
What you are asking for is a bashing now ('hurry before they come up with bug fixes') with showing bugs that would be fixed long before the device is delivered to you. But in the end would only be good for entertaining some, not for providing hints if to buy the product or not. That doesn't help anyone - so it would be a loose-lose situation (well OK: a win for the entertaining).

I have not touched the scope since I did the unboxing, I've been busy with other stuff.

[1anX]

Dave, a lot of us are hoping it will be hackable, as mentioned in this thread and others. The thing is though we need to know if it works as claimed and your the man we rely on, (or at least I do) for the real true to life review.

I hope you find time soon to review it, as you are responsible for me buying a Rigol scope and power supply, as I took you at your word for their capabilities, or lack thereof. If I'm going to buy yet another Rigol instrument, I want to know if its value for money!

[Fungus]

How can they fail so miserably with the frontpanel on 11.5kusd scope!?

Not many of them will be sold for 11.5kusd

[Wolfgang]

I could well be alone with my opinion about RIGOL scope hacking,
but I think that somebody paying a few k€ for a scope (i.e. thats mostly pro people) will risk to loose warranty and support because he hacked his scope from some dubious internet source. What might be an awkward selling argument at the low end (... we dont give you a rebate, but we tolerate or even ecourage if you cheat on us) is not an option for investment-priced machinery.

[2N3055]

I could well be alone with my opinion about RIGOL scope hacking,
but I think that somebody paying a few k€ for a scope (i.e. thats mostly pro people) will risk to loose warranty and support because he hacked his scope from some dubious internet source. What might be an awkward selling argument at the low end (... we dont give you a rebate, but we tolerate or even ecourage if you cheat on us) is not an option for investment-priced machinery.

Entering the license in a scope doesn't invalidate warranty, especially in EU.
Your calibration statement won't be valid anymore though. Which is funny, because scope's calibration is done for full bandwidth, because of end user software enabling of BW.
So, it will still be in calibration, just not formally.

If you use it in company for critical work, and you have to show calibration documents and such, no you can't have it hacked.

If you use it to make money, pay for what you use. It is  a proper thing to do.
Like you want to be paid for your work, so does the guys that made tools that you use to earn you pay..

For hobby use (or education) I really don't care if you "unlock" features.

[darkstar49]

If you use it in company for critical work, and you have to show calibration documents and such, no you can't have it hacked.

Well, that's most probably true for 'companies'... for self-employed (and similar), professional work can perfectly justify the use of a somewhat higher-end scope, while not necessarily having the budget for a 'full-blown' machine... In theory, there's no discussion about hacking scopes used 'commercially', in reality, there's however some sort of twilight zone here... 

And honestly, when one sees how BW upgrades are typically priced, this is really calling for hacked machines !
If've heard companies arguing that corporates typically get significant rebates on those... so at the end, those who would be able to pay for the options get 60 or 70% rebate, and those who can't afford them (at list price), don't get any rebate... while this might commercially make sense, it actually creates the conditions for some to consider hacking their scopes...




 

[2N3055]

And honestly, when one sees how BW upgrades are typically priced, this is really calling for hacked machines !
If've heard companies arguing that corporates typically get significant rebates on those... so at the end, those who would be able to pay for the options get 60 or 70% rebate, and those who can't afford them (at list price), don't get any rebate... while this might commercially make sense, it actually creates the conditions for some to consider hacking their scopes...

This is absolute gold... I HATE haggling, it is disrespectful and waste of my time, that "respectable" T&M manufacturers are expecting me to negotiate  in same manner like I'm buying potatoes and chickens on Oriental market ....
And then, they just fu*k me off to some local distributor, back to listed prices, because they don't want to give me any discounts because I'm buying just one..  And they have that attitude towards THOUSANDS of small companies ... Keysight , R&S, Tektronix, they all did it to me...
If you are small company, they are downright condescending, they behave like I walked in a Ferrari dealership with 1000 € asking for a good deal...
Which, actually is not even a good comparison, because a friend of mine did exactly that once (he was bored). In fact the guy that approached him didn't even skip a beat, dead serious he explained that what they sell is very expensive and said that his boss also own Fiat dealership down the street, gave him the card and said to go there and see if they might have something for him... All polite... My friend felt bad, apologized, and guy was laughing, all good... That is a good salesman.

My experience during years with big T&M manufacturers was quite the opposite...
 

[Wolfgang]

... not my experience. I bought a lot of T&M stuff recently (see my profile), and what I can say is:

- Top brand manufacturers give double the rebate as the Chinese brands
- But you have to motivate them to do so.
- Key is competition. I always tested several machines, and I would openly tell them about that
  Before loosing a sale, they will adapt their prices.

I try to be tough, but also to be fair. You normally see each other more than once in your engineering life.

[2N3055]

... not my experience. I bought a lot of T&M stuff recently (see my profile), a

Just a today's new experience:

I went to R&S site last Friday and left a "make me an offer". I chose RTM3004 + 200MHz upgrade +App bundle  .
Today, receive a mail from local Croatian company I never heard of. With an offer for a 1 GHz  RTM3000 + app bundle and 5 year extended warranty..
I asked for a config in 5000-6500 € range and received offer to buy 18500 € config.... Yeah, almost the same...
I really don't feel at all to be calling them at this point.  They are obviously idiots. Yes, idiots.

Regards,
Sinisa

[Wolfgang]

Negotiating with T&M companies is an iterative process. Their first try is always something like the list price. Forget about that.
If they are asked for substantial rebates, they need a justification, there is paperwork for them, ... They are only human and a bit lazy, too.

This is how I did it:
I told them that I will not only try theirs, but also units from their competitors. I gave model numbers, I told them where they were better and
they were worse, I published my tests on the net. So, they had the best (and probably the only effective) reason for substantial rebates: *competition*.
That worked.

Example for some tests:
https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/test-equipment/test-equipment-measurements/a-high-speed-oscilloscope-comparison/
https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/test-equipment/test-equipment-measurements/rf-signal-generator-am-modulation-quality/
https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/test-equipment/test-equipment-measurements/rf-signal-generator-iq-modulation-quality/

[nctnico]

Negotiating with T&M companies is an iterative process. Their first try is always something like the list price. Forget about that.
If they are asked for substantial rebates, they need a justification, there is paperwork for them, ... They are only human and a bit lazy, too.

A couple of years ago I was trying to get a reasonable price for a Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000. The local Lecroy dealer proposed a Rigol oscilloscope instead. Seriously? 

[Wolfgang]

Try again. Nowadays they will be a lot more cooperative, believe me. The times where a "nose up" attitude impresses people is long gone, and there is a *lot* more competition on the scope market than some years ago. New players: Siglent, Rohde & Schwarz, the new Rigols, ...
When you have a unique product in the market things are different. But a WaveSurfer ?! Thats ordinary fare.

[rsjsouza]

What is funny is that LeCroy is not competitive in this range at all to have such attitude. The bottom range WaveAce is terrible and several reports mention the Wavesurfer 3000 is quite subpar.

[nctnico]

What is funny is that LeCroy is not competitive in this range at all to have such attitude. The bottom range WaveAce is terrible and several reports mention the Wavesurfer 3000 is quite subpar.

Ofcourse I would have taken the Wavesurfer 3000 for a test drive but I don't want to spend time on that before agreeing on the price. Based on Jportici's experience with the Wavesurfer 3000 I probably wouldn't have bought it. IMHO the R&S RTM3000 is the oscilloscope to beat in the price bracket the DSO7000 is positioned.

[2N3055]

Ofcourse I would have taken the Wavesurfer 3000 for a test drive but I don't want to spend time on that before agreeing on the price. Based on Jportici's experience with the Wavesurfer 3000 I probably wouldn't have bought it. IMHO the R&S RTM3000 is the oscilloscope to beat in the price bracket the DSO7000 is positioned.

Wavesurfer is nice but is not excellent in anything. It doesn't have Peak detect mode, it has sample memory depth that is nor small nor big, it has MSO but it is quite slow compared to even Rigols...
It has WaveScan (that is fantastic) but it is crippled to be just a little better than good search.. And it is quite slowish when you enable more stuff.
It is deliberately crippled not interfere with sales of their mid range products.

RS RTM3000 ticks many right boxes (that is why I was asking for a quote), but their pricing is still ridiculous. Actually, they started to be more reasonable on software options, but bandwidth is still way overpriced. 1GHz scope for 18000€ ?  100->350 MHZ upgrade 4000 € ? 100->500 MHZ upgrade 6700€ ? If upgrade to 500 MHz was 1500-2000€, then I would buy 200 MH scope now (it is in my budget) and upgrade to 500MHz in few months..  6700€ pretty much guarantees I will never buy it.

And if the pricing was like that they would fly of the shelves...

I still might buy 200MHz +all options for mixed signal work, and for 2000 € used 1 GHz scope.   

[nctnico]

I still might buy 200MHz +all options for mixed signal work, and for 2000 € used 1 GHz scope.

That is not a bad idea. I have the 1GHz RTM3004 on my bench but for looking at signals in picosecond territory I'm using an Agilent 54845. The latter goes to 100ps/div while the RTM3000 stops at 500ps/div.

[rsjsouza]

Ofcourse I would have taken the Wavesurfer 3000 for a test drive but I don't want to spend time on that before agreeing on the price. Based on Jportici's experience with the Wavesurfer 3000 I probably wouldn't have bought it. IMHO the R&S RTM3000 is the oscilloscope to beat in the price bracket the DSO7000 is positioned.

I can't necessarily understand the rep's attitude in this case; to me it smells like he did not believe at all in the customer's expertise and tried to pull a realtor's attitude: show something wonderfully irresistible only to try to take advantage of the awe of the customer (quite childish IMHO). Perhaps that is what Sinisa's rant talks about. Regarding the oscilloscope itself, JPortici's review is what I remember as well.

I still might buy 200MHz +all options for mixed signal work, and for 2000 € used 1 GHz scope.   

I don't know about Croatia's market, but here in test gear haven this money buys you quite a decent used oscilloscope.

[iMo]

I don't know about Croatia's market, but here in test gear haven this money buys you quite a decent used oscilloscope.

Europe is pretty different - definitely not the test gear heaven..

[2N3055]

I can't necessarily understand the rep's attitude in this case; to me it smells like he did not believe at all in the customer's expertise and tried to pull a realtor's attitude: show something wonderfully irresistible only to try to take advantage of the awe of the customer (quite childish IMHO). Perhaps that is what Sinisa's rant talks about. Regarding the oscilloscope itself, JPortici's review is what I remember as well.

I apologize to all, it is more like me complaining and sharing  it with my fellows that understand my pain .... :-)))

I don't know about Croatia's market, but here in test gear haven this money buys you quite a decent used oscilloscope.

In EU there is no developed market for used T&M equipment, and in CRO it is nonexistent whatsoever..

Regards,

[nctnico]

I don't know about Croatia's market, but here in test gear haven this money buys you quite a decent used oscilloscope.

Europe is pretty different - definitely not the test gear heaven..

True but good deals can be found on Ebay even with shipping costs and VAT. I've bought equipment and parts from allover the world.

[Dave Turner]

The inbuilt sig gen looks identical to the one on the Rigol DS1074Z. Max 25MHz sine & 15MHZ square waves.

You'd have thought that for a 500MHz scope costing in excess of £10,000 when fully upgraded Rigol would have taken the opportunity to improve the sig gen too, say to 100MHz sine wave; or is that too much like common sense?

[2N3055]

The inbuilt sig gen looks identical to the one on the Rigol DS1074Z. Max 25MHz sine & 15MHZ square waves.

You'd have thought that for a 500MHz scope costing in excess of £10,000 when fully upgraded Rigol would have taken the opportunity to improve the sig gen too, say to 100MHz sine wave; or is that too much like common sense?

Most of the competition is not better even on 18000USD scopes. Keysight MSOX-3104T - up to 20 MHz, R&S RTM3000 - up to 25 MHz, LecCroy Wavesurfer 3000 up to 25 MHz...
Only Tek MDO 3000/4000 go to 50Mhz... None of them go to 100MHz.
Siggen on a scope is not a full instrument, it's more like a supplementary function, to give a handy basic signal source that is right there. Actually, 2 ch on Rigol is more useful than higher than 25 MHz frequencies..

[1anX]

Maybe Rigol Australia should get this unit back from Dave and give it to someone who actually wants to test it sometime this year 

Anyone found a comprehensive third party online review of this scope yet?

[MrW0lf]

Maybe Rigol Australia should get this unit back from Dave and give it to someone who actually wants to test it sometime this year 

Anyone found a comprehensive third party online review of this scope yet?

And instead of just feeling the knobs someone might run real test for a change. Extend timebase to say 500ms (default test max 5ms), and much sharper edge (~2ns) or Arduino version of test. They claim full memory (guess 500Mpts? then) measurements, and in real time. Something thought to be impossible and even unneeded by some not long ago...

[1anX]

Maybe Rigol Australia should get this unit back from Dave and give it to someone who actually wants to test it sometime this year 

Anyone found a comprehensive third party online review of this scope yet?

Just went over to EEVBlog2 and wouldn't you know Dave is showing a video edit with the Rigol scope in question getting the teardown treatment!

Maybe sometime soon we will have a meaningful review of Rigol's new scope 

[Fungus]

Just went over to EEVBlog2 and wouldn't you know Dave is showing a video edit with the Rigol scope in question getting the teardown treatment!

Maybe sometime soon we will have a meaningful review of Rigol's new scope 

Did you see the date on that?

[2N3055]

While I really like tear downs, for both entertainment and educational value, they are no product reviews.
It would be nice to see how it is to use it and how good it is..
But that is a huge job. I don't think we'll see it very soon.

[Hydrawerk]

Dave Jones made a teardown. https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157698340312471/with/42115912650/
Tehre are CapXon capacitors. 

[dr.diesel]

Dave Jones made a teardown. https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157698340312471/with/42115912650/
Tehre are CapXon capacitors. 

I just replaced a less than 1 year old POE injector with bad CapXon caps today, in a 70F office.

[commongrounder]

Those caps are in the power supply, which was outsourced.  Rigol probably treated it as a module and didn’t spec the components used inside.  It will be interesting to see how many will fail during the three year warranty period.

[Fungus]

Those caps are in the power supply, which was outsourced.  Rigol probably treated it as a module and didn’t spec the components used inside.  It will be interesting to see how many will fail during the three year warranty period.

They use CapXon in their other 'scopes and I don't see many failing because of that.

[1anX]

[dr.diesel]

Looking forward to a full review, but lots of unanswered questions still:

 - Still software serial decode?
 - Same super crappy encoders like the 4000 series?
 - Laggy UI?
 - Web interface?
 
And most importantly, will it suffer for years with very poor dedication on the firmware side?  Anyone that bought a 4000 or 6000 will be hesitant to purchase this.

[commongrounder]

Those caps are in the power supply, which was outsourced.  Rigol probably treated it as a module and didn’t spec the components used inside.  It will be interesting to see how many will fail during the three year warranty period.

They use CapXon in their other 'scopes and I don't see many failing because of that.

Don’t get me wrong. I didn’t mean the failure comment to be critical.  My Rigol DS4000 scope has a CapXon populated switching supply in it, and it has been working fine for six years.
Also, despite the firmware hassles on the 4000, I am still considering the 7000 series for a possible upgrade.  I, like others, anxiously await a thorough review.

[Fungus]

Interesting that the power supply appears to only put out one voltage and that half the PCB is taken up with voltage converters.

[bitseeker]

It's not unusual, especially with low voltages. Instead of stringing power traces all over, convert it where it's needed.

[PA0PBZ]

It's not unusual, especially with low voltages. Instead of stringing power traces all over, convert it where it's needed.

Exactly, as you can see the thing wants about 10 different voltages, and you don't want to put that all in the PSU. And splitting it between the PSU and main board just doesn't make sense.

[rsjsouza]

My Rigol DS4000 scope has a CapXon populated switching supply in it, and it has been working fine for six years.

Similar scenario here, but mine is 2015. I suspect Rigol is (rightly so) giving business to their fellow countrymen and Capxon seems to have improved their product.

It's not unusual, especially with low voltages. Instead of stringing power traces all over, convert it where it's needed.

Exactly, as you can see the thing wants about 10 different voltages, and you don't want to put that all in the PSU. And splitting it between the PSU and main board just doesn't make sense.

Not only that, but a golden rule of electrical power transmission: the higher the voltage, the smaller the losses. The board already heats up as is, imagine carrying higher currents in longer traces.

One interesting detail I found funny about the teardown was Dave's comment about the HW revision in resistors - I found the same in my DS4014.
https://youtu.be/zbU2our0qCI?t=12m43s

[Fungus]

One interesting detail I found funny about the teardown was Dave's comment about the HW revision in resistors - I found the same in my DS4014.

Makes sense that the hardware revision is hard-coded.

Do these new ASICs and integrated front-end amplifier chips mean that Rigol can basically own any market segment where the competition is still using FPGAs and op-amps?

[nctnico]

One interesting detail I found funny about the teardown was Dave's comment about the HW revision in resistors - I found the same in my DS4014.

Makes sense that the hardware revision is hard-coded.

Do these new ASICs and integrated front-end amplifier chips mean that Rigol can basically own any market segment where the competition is still using FPGAs and op-amps?

No because 'consumer' components will always be cheaper. IMHO it is a mistake to think that very expensive to produce ASICs can somehow be used cost effectively in a low cost oscilloscope. Just look at the number of memory chips around the ASICs. A Xilinx Zync based scope just needs a multi-channel ADC and one memory chip to function. You can't beat that with an ASIC.

[bitseeker]

It's not unusual, especially with low voltages. Instead of stringing power traces all over, convert it where it's needed.

Not only that, but a golden rule of electrical power transmission: the higher the voltage, the smaller the losses. The board already heats up as is, imagine carrying higher currents in longer traces.

Exactly.